October 22, 2025 • 59 mins
We celebrate Halloween by diving into The Twilight Zone as a trove of modern parables that press on fear, conscience, and hope. Rod Serling’s craft opens space to talk about mob panic, prejudice, premonition, mental health, and a Christian view of death without preaching.
It's not necessary to be familiar with the episodes we discuss prior to listening, but there are spoilers. If you want to watch before listening, check out "The Monsters are Due on Maple Street", "Twenty Two", "Hitch-Hiker", and "Willoughby."
Intro music provided by Holly Serio
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_01 (00:04):
It's our Halloween episode, and this year we're
going to talk about one of thegreat sources of modern
parables, the Twilight Zone.
(00:46):
I'm Father Alex Roach, andjoining me today, as always, is
Father Anthony Dill.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
Hey, Alex.
I feel like it's the podcast ofheart, too.
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
Of heart?
Like Captain Planet.
Is this a Captain Planetepisode?
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
Well, unfortunately, maybe Captain Planet will be
around Earth Day, but this isHalloween special.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
And for our Halloween special, as you know,
we've decided to talk about uhone of the most influential
television programs of all time,the Twilight Zone.
But before we get into it, Ithink all of our listeners are
wondering the same thing.
So I'm gonna ask it on theirbehalf.
All right.
Go ahead.
(01:27):
What are you gonna be forHalloween?
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Oh.
Thought we were gonna both guesswhat that question was on three.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
What did you think I was gonna ask?
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
No idea.
I was gonna say the mostridiculous.
Nothing was popping into my headwhen you say the question that
everybody's wondering.
I don't have a costume.
Okay.
How about you?
Do you have one?
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Well, I've been asking the kids like constantly
what I should be for Halloween.
It's like such an easy go-to toget kids interacting this time
of year.
But when I got back, so I wasjust doing a seminary visit, and
when I got back, and I just cameinto the office for the first
time because I got back afterthe office was closed, and
sitting on my chair was anastronaut costume.
(02:13):
Wow.
But it's a double XL.
Ouch.
So I'm not sure if that's gonnabe much use.
SPEAKER_02 (02:21):
Don't develop an eating disorder over that.
Seriously.
That's cool though.
That's nice that they know youand think about you.
I guess.
What kids?
Your parishioners?
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
No, I think it was one of the secretaries, Scott.
I'm assuming it was a secretary.
It might have been aparishioner.
I have no idea who it's from.
It's nice.
They're on a they're on a we'rewe're doing this thing with the
local middle schools right now.
So there's so many Amazonpackages of like supplies for
kids coming to the parish.
And so it could have easilygotten delivered here, and I
(02:55):
would not have noticed itbecause there's like I just
don't even open them, I justbring them to the office.
And all the and everybody, allmy neighbors probably think I'm
just addicted to Amazonshopping.
SPEAKER_02 (03:06):
What have you you haven't tried it on or opened it
up?
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
I just no, it was just when I came in here to
record this episode.
SPEAKER_02 (03:13):
So you don't know what the helmet looks like.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
Like, is it a helmet or it's just like uh there's no
helmet, it's like one of thesuper cheap ones, okay.
You know, off the rack.
It's not as pack.
I don't think anybody's gonnaconfuse me for an astronaut.
We'll say that.
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
You just keep getting saluted.
What'd you do with an astronaut?
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Yeah, uh well, they are military mostly, right?
SPEAKER_03 (03:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
So it's it's become our tradition every October to
do a little bit of a spookyepisode seasonal to dive into
the theology.
So there's a little spooky andthis year.
We decided to talk a little bitabout the Twilight Zone because
(04:00):
it dives into such powerfulmoral issues, it's usually
horror or science fictionthemed, so it's write on message
with Halloween.
And I discovered when we came upwith this idea that this was
really your introduction to theTwilight Zone, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
I've seen like it on TV before, but no, I didn't I
didn't know the Twilight Zonewell, so yeah, I I really
enjoyed.
I didn't I'd just been watchingfor the last couple weeks a
couple episodes, but yeah, it'suh it's excellent.
I like it too because it fitsour theme.
Like it's spooky, but it's alsoI think we really highlight
imagination.
Like we we allow Halloween to bea time to really dive into
(04:42):
imagination, and I think thisdoes a great job provoking
thought and imagination.
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
I'm gonna I'm gonna put a nickel in a jar for every
time through this whole podcastyou use the word imagination.
unknown (04:55):
Smart.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
How many nickels?
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Who gets the money at the end?
Who's getting those nickels?
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
It'll go towards a Halloween costume.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
So that's how nice.
Is it all like derivatives?
Like if I say imagine, does thatcount?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
No, just imagination.
Wow, just the word imagination.
SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
High bar.
I can get it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
That's a high bar.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
What kind of costume do you want?
SPEAKER_01 (05:19):
So The Twilight Zone, for people who don't know,
was a TV show, an anthologyseries that ran from 1959 to
1964.
It's 150 some odd episodes.
It is widely cited andreferenced.
There were a couple otheriterations throughout the years,
(05:41):
I think three others.
There was a movie in the 80swith John Lithgow.
It's huge cultural impact.
I will say, I think for a lot ofpeople like us that didn't grow
up when the Twilight Zone was atits height, the the fact that
(06:04):
it's black and white, the factthat the special effects look
like they're from the early 60s,the fact that some of the some
of the the episodes have reallygreat acting, but it's a little
uneven in some episode someepisodes it's not as good.
But I'll say despite all ofthat, the writing is universally
good, always good writing, andfor the vast majority of them,
(06:27):
the theme and the content andthe message and the twist is
genuinely good.
So even though it's this60-year-old show at this point,
60 years plus, I do think if youhaven't seen it, it is worth
checking out.
I don't think you'll regretwatching a few episodes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
I was at like a little family gathering thing
with well, my one cousin washaving a bridal shower, and so
the guys of my family were at abar, and I brought up that I was
started watching the TwilightZone, and all my uncles just
like couldn't say enough aboutit, and it's like a huge
nostalgia thing for them, whichI didn't, yeah, like it's a huge
(07:08):
cultural event.
It overlaps, like you said, theyears too kind of overlapped the
second Vatican Council, which Ijust think is interesting for
creativity and imagination atthat time.
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
Do you think that Twilight Zone influenced the
Second Vatican Council?
Is that why we think that likesome of the documents?
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
No, I think I think like at least in America, like
it's it's starting, it's it'sopening a philosophical
conversation over public airwaysthat maybe wasn't there before.
Like you were talking about thegood writing and the writer,
we're gonna talk about the thehost of it, Rod Serling, is
responsible for kind of riding acultural wave at that time where
(07:53):
it was acceptable andunacceptable to start pushing
these philosophical moralquestions.
And I think like so that thatwave that existed then also kind
of existed in the Second VaticanCouncil with difficult moral and
and philosophical questions,existential questions.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Yeah, uh yeah, I think you're right.
But there, I mean, the there isthat whole paragraph in Gadimet
Spez that deals use the analogyof a goblin on the wing of a
plane.
SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
Yeah, so I couldn't wait to hear what this paragraph
was gonna say.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
For those of you who don't know, Gaddium et Spez is
the constitution of the churchin the modern world, 1965,
Second Vatican Council, and itdoes not have that paragraph.
SPEAKER_02 (08:37):
I thought you were gonna say, for those of you who
don't know, a goblin is amythical green shit that
inhabits the forests.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
That that's a famous episode that we're not speaking
about tonight with WilliamShatner that was then redone for
the Twilight Zone, the moviewith John Lithgow.
So one of the more famousepisodes of the Twilight Zone.
Yeah, it's a good one.
You should watch it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
I haven't seen it, and I know I need to I need to
do it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Yeah.
So you want to talk a little bitabout old Rod first before we
jump into everything?
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
Yeah, it was funny when I said to my uncles, I was
watching it, though, my oneuncle, like the first thing he
said was, Oh, Rod Sterling was areally cool, interesting guy.
And so I looked him up a littlebit, and he was a World War II
vet and a paratroop, aparatrooper, and went and was
deployed to the Philippines andkind of commented on some of his
(09:31):
writing.
He he was a a gifted writer andthen honed his craft when he got
back.
And a lot of his creativewriting was coming from the
experience and trauma of beingin the Second World War.
And so, like a lot of the moralthings and like spooky things is
coming from like a pretty darkplace and like a therapeutic
(09:53):
place with a whole generation ofmen that kind of experience the
same thing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Yeah, he he certainly had PTSD, which they
wouldn't have called that at thetime.
And I mean, he watched his bestfriend die over there, and it
was incredibly horrific.
Yeah, and I and I've I've I'veseen that in a lot of places
that writing for him was a formof therapy, which is which is
kind of a neat aspect of hislife and of this show.
(10:20):
Yeah, so he uh he was fromoriginally, he grew up in
Binghamton, he was born onChristmas Day, 1924, Jewish kid,
belonged to a reform Jewishtemple, and seemingly had a
pretty good childhood, was awell-adjusted kid, and then that
formative experience of theSecond World War, which
(10:43):
traumatized a lot of people inthe greatest generation,
obviously, and sort of led to alot of the views that come out
throughout the rest of the show.
And and in fact, some someepisodes of the show are set
during World War II and dealwith a lot of the themes that he
(11:04):
took from his time there.
Very, very anti-war.
So I I think among the manysocial issues that he seemed to
have strong opinions on, uh,certainly uh his experience in
the Philippines led him to takea pretty strong stance against
war.
Among other things, I meanyou'll see as we talk some
(11:27):
social issues like especiallyracism, anti-Semitism, a lot of
forms of prejudice, in additionto a lot of the psychological
and emotional themes that comeup throughout the show.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Yeah, just confronting death in general,
yeah, yeah, or psychoticbreakdowns in general.
He seems to have no problemtalking about.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
He had a he had a bronze star and a purple heart,
too.
SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
Yeah.
So he was wounded.
And he go ahead.
Did you see any interviews withhim?
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
Yeah, I was watching obviously you see him talking
every episode, but yeah, I was Iwas watching one of where they
were asking him questions aboutcensorship, which seemed to be
kind of one of the ways thatTwilight Zone was developed
because he was writing for othershows, and there was a couple
things affecting censorship atthe time.
One was just sponsorship.
(12:16):
So whoever was paying for theshow or the main sponsor had so
much creative control and couldedit some of the things that
would happen.
And also there was generalfeedback from the population.
Like people could write lettersback and say, like, I don't like
you treating this issue, or justthe overall kind of like
(12:36):
Hollywood system could censorthings.
And he was doing controversialtopics.
So one of the reasons they didthe Twilight Zone wasn't like he
was a good sci-fi writer, but hesaid in the genre of sci-fi, you
could say, Oh no, this isn't amoral, this isn't a moral show,
it's it's just sci-fi, and thishappens to be what the aliens
are doing, or this happens to bewhat they're doing, but it's
(12:57):
kind of just the guise to beable to talk about deeper
philosophical issues.
SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
Yeah, I think that's that's an angle we can talk
about a little bit more.
But first, uh I wanted to ask ifyou noticed that in any video
except the intro to the well, Imaybe it is in the intro to the
show, I'm not sure.
In any video I saw of the man,he had a cigarette in his hand.
He never did not have acigarette in his hand.
SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
He also didn't open his jaw when he talks.
Like, I don't know if thatbothers you at all during the
intro, but it's like his teethnever get more than like a
quarter inch apart.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
I respect that.
So tight jaw locked down.
Efficient.
That's a that's what we call afish.
Uh yeah, well, I I to yourpoint, like we mentioned
already, a lot of deep themes,not all of which are social
commentaries, but many of whichare throughout a Twilight Zone.
(13:57):
Well one of the episodes we'regonna talk about today does
discuss more social issues.
Uh, some of them are morepsychological, but I will say he
had a a few instances where helaid out why he thought a show
(14:19):
like The Twilight Zone wasuniquely positioned to make
social commentary.
And and you hinted at thisalready, but he even used the
word parable, and he talkedabout how teaching and and
expressing a lot of his viewsand his thoughts through parable
(14:42):
or through the stories that hewrote allowed him to engage
people that otherwise would haveshut him down, allowed him to
introduce ideas to people thatthey perhaps would not have been
open to had he just come out andsay African Americans are
(15:04):
deserving of all the same rightsas whites in the United States.
If he just would have said that,he probably would have been shut
down.
But by using these stories toget that message across, he
thought he was able to reachaudiences that he otherwise
wouldn't.
And I thought it was veryinteresting.
He said, Is it possible thatthey missed the message?
(15:26):
Yeah, that's possible.
But I believe at leastperipherally, they're receiving
some of the message regardless.
And I thought that was reallyinteresting.
And obviously, there's aconnection to our faith there.
Somebody we know, both of us,teaches almost exclusively in
parables Jesus of Nazareth.
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Okay, I was thinking it might be Jesus, too.
I was like, I don't know anybodyelse.
Except for Rod Serling.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Yeah, I don't know.
Do you have any thoughts on anyof anything I just said?
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
No, I I I agree with you, and so like it's
interesting you're kind ofalmost shaping him as seeing his
primary role as a prophet morethan a storyteller.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
And I think he thinks they're the same thing.
I think a storyteller is aprophet.
And and in fact, one of thestories we're going to talk
about tonight is an older storythat he adapted.
It's not his story necessarily,which is kind of interesting
too.
So I I think he just thinksthat's how the medium how the
medium works.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
That's the point in being able to tell stories.
Is that you can show you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Or one of the one of the points.
SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
Yeah.
I he obviously was an early andstrong believer in the power of
television to tell thesestories.
And I just obviously you canoverstate this, but it's it's
pretty interesting, especiallyin the context of something like
(17:00):
Wadi Cherith, to look at at thisnotion that not only can you
find God and morality on theperipheries and in these
indirect ways, but according toSerling, it's it's the
(17:21):
preferable way to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
Yeah.
Yeah, because the biggerreality.
I mean, that's the reason one ofthe reasons the gospels are the
way they are, too.
You're right.
It's a it's a bigger realitythat than can be expressed in
direct information.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
And and science fiction and horror, the two
genres I think you would link tothe Twilight Zone the most, are
pretty famous for doing exactlythat, for just making
commentaries.
But we're talking about anothersociety, right?
It's a Martian saying it, it'sit's a Klingon saying it, it's
(18:00):
you know, the Jedi saying it.
It has nothing to do with ourcurrent situation here and now,
so you can kind of get away withmaking some some points that
would be tougher if it was acontemporary setting.
SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
In terms of religious beliefs, uh, he uh, as
I mentioned, was raised in uhreform Judaism.
Uh his wife was a UnitarianUniversalist, so a Christian
Unitarian, and he does seem tohave gotten pretty involved in
that church later in life.
Not a lot of explicit religionfrom him, but I did uh find a
(18:42):
commencement address that hegave at Binghamton High School
in 1968, I think, in which he uhtold the students to find faith
in something worthy of theirfaith, and that they must find
faith in their life, thatthere's no replacement, nothing
(19:03):
can fill that role.
And and you also see throughoutthe show a lot of religious
allusions and very positiveportrayals of religion and its
role in society.
So while certainly not Catholicand not what we would generally
consider very religious, Serlingand the show in general paint a
(19:25):
very positive picture ofreligion.
And and many episodes areexplicitly focused on religion,
actually.
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
Yeah, like the I'm thinking the howler episode with
uh when they trap the devil, andit's like in a monastery, but it
kind of goes out of its way toshow it's not a Catholic
monastery.
But the same kind of conceptexists of good and evil, and and
using the like actually having acharacter which is is the a
tempter and a and an evil one.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Yeah, there's another episode, The Obsolete
Man, where it's this portrayalof a society without religion,
and the protagonist is a mantalking about faith and how he
holds to religion and andreading and books, and there's
so it's it's generally apositive view.
Yeah.
Do you want to talk about acouple of the episodes?
Or do you have anything else ingeneral?
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
No, let's get into the the good episodes here.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
All right, what are we gonna talk about first?
SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
Let's talk with I I think we'll spend the most time
on monsters.
Do you want to start with themonsters on Maple Street or
what's it called?
SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Yeah, so this is a first season episode called The
Monsters Are Due on MapleStreet.
Now, I want to say we will spoilthese episodes.
So I'm if if you're not if youdon't care, you can listen.
If you want to go watch theepisodes, that could be cool
too, and listen to what we haveto say.
If you've already seen them oryou remember them or jogging
(20:49):
your memory, you know, you canlisten however you want.
But while we're not gonnanecessarily like do a
step-by-step recount of all ofthese episodes that we talk
about, we are gonna spoil them.
And the episodes we're gonnadiscuss are The Monsters Are Due
on Maple Street, 22, TheHitchhiker, and Willoughby.
(21:12):
So those are the four episodeswe're gonna we're gonna talk
about a little bit, and we willspoil them.
So you'll we'll give away thetwist.
Yes, you don't want to set thegroundwork for what's going on
in the monsters are doing maplestreet?
SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Monsters are do on maple street is taking place in
like a generic town, andsomething flies overhead, and
then and they're all the powergoes out, the phones stop
working.
Spooky.
So spooky.
And like back in the day, Iguess everybody just came out of
their house and confirmedreality with their neighbors.
(21:47):
I don't know if that's whatwould happen.
I guess people would do thattoday.
I guess like during COVID,everybody would come out and see
what everybody else is doing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Kind of socially distant.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Yeah, we're so, but uh even yeah, our society is so
like isolated.
I don't know if it'd be the sameway that everybody would come
out of their house as soon asthere's a problem and try to
figure out what all theneighbors have feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
So yeah, everybody comes out into the street and
they're panicking.
They saw something fly overhead,they assume it's a meteor, but
now the power's out.
None of their cars are starting,none of their lawnmowers are
starting.
Everybody checking lawnmowers.
They've got to check thelawnmower.
That's what I would do first.
(22:33):
What if if you can't mow yourlawn, that's chaos.
Think of all the plugs you'llhave all over the place.
SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Think of all the judging that will happen.
I'd get a hernia trying to pullthat cord, just getting that
lawnmower started.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I'm just getting spooky for maybe I'll go that
I'll go uncut, untended lawn forHalloween.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
The scariest, the scariest of all things.
You're getting like you'regetting like like clammy palms
right now, just thinking aboutnot having chills.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
I don't actually care that much about it.
So they're out there trying tofigure out what happens, and
then a kid, a child, startsreally getting everybody all
worked up by basicallyrecounting the science fiction
story he's heard, and that thealiens want them to stay.
(23:24):
That's why they shut everythingout.
And he knows he read it in astory, he saw it in a movie,
that it's definitely aliens.
And as happens when the kid saysthis, all the adults just
believe him.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
They like spoke this idea into everybody's head, and
then they can't shake it.
This guy's name is Tommy.
Tommy is like ruining everyone'slives in this thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Well, he gets his later.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
And somebody even says that too.
They're like, oh, this kid justgives us a comic book plot, and
now we all believe it and wecan't let go of it.
And because of that, theneighbors who are gonna walk to
the next town to see ifeverything's shut off there,
too, were afraid to leavebecause he puts this idea in
their head, oh no, only thealiens who came ahead would go
(24:05):
to the other town.
They're the only one that wouldbe able to leave.
And then he says, only thealiens who were planted here
ahead of time would have any oftheir things working because the
aliens are letting their thingswork, and then somebody's car
turns on, and then we start tohave this.
Basically, anybody who hasanything that works, or anybody
who's a little different, isaccused, and people like in
(24:31):
general, this is a normal humanconcept that he feeds on.
If we feel like we don't belongor feel we feel there's danger,
we're not in the middle of thegroup, we'll immediately point
at somebody else to make themseem further outside.
So relatively we can seemfurther inside.
SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
And that's what happens.
So we're pointing out not justwhose car starts, but who does
something a little different,who likes to stargaze, who's up
late at night, who has a hamradio in the radio.
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Who has a ham radio?
Yep.
I didn't know about the hamradio.
What's that?
The one guy's like, I didn'tknow you had a ham radio.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
So they're just ganging up on each other and
accusing each other, and thisthis neighborhood, these
neighbors who are all friends,are all of a sudden at each
other's throats trying to findout who the aliens among them
are and convince everybody thatthey're not an alien.
It comes to a head, well, thatfurther comes to a head first
(25:33):
when a member, one of theirneighbors who had gone to the
next town over, starts walkingup, and he's it's dark, they
can't see who it is, and there'sone character who's trying to
calm everyone down, and anothercharacter rips uh a rifle from
his hand and shoots this guywalking in.
(25:55):
They walk over and realize itwas their neighbor, not an
alien, and so now a murder hasbeen committed.
SPEAKER_02 (26:02):
At first, he tells the one neighbor who's kind of
the leader, he's like, You gottashoot him.
And he's like, No, I'm not justgonna shoot a guy walking at us,
and he goes, Oh, maybe becauseyou're an alien and he's the
alien, and then like has toprove himself by shooting
someone not knowing who he is.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
At this point, things continue to escalate.
Some lights are going on incertain houses, people start
throwing rocks, they decide thatit was this kid, Tommy, who
first planted the idea that mustbe the alien.
So they're going after this kid,and absolute chaos ensues, just
(26:42):
like the whole neighborhoodripping each other apart.
And you think, all right, that'sit.
There's the uh there's thetwist, there was no twist.
But then you see two aliens whowere watching and had shut all
the devices out and reveal thattheir plan all along was not to
invade and attack, but to findways to turn neighborhoods and
(27:06):
communities against each other,after which they can sweep in
and take over.
And end scene.
You can probably obviously seethe the message he's trying to
make with this episode.
And you have to remember likethis is a man who is has lived
(27:29):
through you know the red scare,McCarthyism.
It's in the midst of the ColdWar.
So probably in his mind is thisfear that a neighbor is going to
accuse someone of being acommunist.
Uh, he's also obviously uh grewup in a Jewish household, so I'm
sure anti-Semitism is part ofwhat he's getting at here.
(27:54):
But uh I think just in general,he's uh laying out the dangers
of mob mentality, of accusationsthat can fly around, and how
quickly when faced withadversity uh we turn on each
other, we tear down anyonethat's different, and we just
(28:18):
devolve.
SPEAKER_02 (28:20):
Yeah, this this I guess then just this human need
to feel like we're in the circleand be willing to trade anything
to make sure that we're in thecircle.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
Good thing 60 years later, that's not a problem
anymore, isn't it?
We we dodged a bullet.
We overcame that flaw inhumanity.
SPEAKER_02 (28:39):
I yeah, obviously there's and now's a good time
for anyone listening to startusing your imagination and apply
it to how you would apply ittoday.
But yeah, I I do want to say,like, I was thinking about this
from the perspective of like theBeatitudes, like blessed are you
who are poor, or like just kindof like the the call the gospel
(29:00):
some of the St.
Francis quotes, like, if we hadpossessions, then we then we
would need weapons to defendthem.
And I I there there's somethingabout the gospel simplicity of
not trying to make yourself seembetter than other people, or or
trying to live simply or poorly,or striving after a safety or a
(29:22):
security that comes frompoverty, because by having a
pride or having like makingyourself seem better than other
people, you're putting yourselfat risk to cause this type of
attempt to push you out of thecircle.
And so, like, there is like alike an incredible security, I
(29:43):
think, in in the concept ofevangelical poverty or or gospel
simplicity to forfeit membershipin a game like that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Right.
Yeah, nothing to protect.
SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
I I think also it's worth noting.
Jesus throughout his ministryspends a disproportionate amount
of time with outcasts, with theforeigner, with the leper, with
the undesirable, with the personthat is a little different or
(30:25):
looked down upon.
And yeah, adulterate.
Yeah, right.
The sinner.
It's especially important to dothat given our human nature to
so quickly turn on the personwho's different when things are
bad and and point to them as thecause of our problems.
SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
That's exactly what happened to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Right.
So so we have to like he has hehas to ingrain that in us so
firmly as a moral principle, asa part of the faith, as a as a
central tenant of his message,so that it's strong enough to
withstand what often happenswhen things go sour, because
(31:11):
that's going to be the firstgroup we're going to be tempted
to turn against.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
Yeah.
And that I mean that's what hashappened with the church.
And like we grow the fastestway, too, is imitating Jesus
completely or sharing hispassion through through
martyrdom.
Like people who say, I'm okaybeing the outsider and I'm okay
being the scapegoat in inparticipation with Jesus Christ
as the scapegoat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
Right.
And and I think also just thethe danger of even starting to
hurl accusations, because that'swhat happens in this episode.
Once you start accusing oneanother of something, then then
the seal is off.
(31:56):
And now we're just gonna wildlythrow accusations, accusations
in every direction.
You know, which is why Jesusinstructs us like, let judge not
lest ye be judged, let he he whois without sin cast the first
stone, right?
Just because of how quicklythings again can devolve once we
(32:21):
start pointing fingers.
SPEAKER_02 (32:22):
Yeah.
Or I think of like St.
Teresa Bavilan in ourautobiography, constantly
calling herself like a worthlessworm, a stupid woman, or the
worst sinner of everyone.
Like you read that and you'relike, how can you think that?
But I think like once you'reidentifying with Christ so much,
you always are trying to makeyourself the away from the
(32:42):
center of the circle.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Right.
Yeah.
What I think it can happen, andI don't know how much our
listeners would necessarily beexposed to this or aware of
this, but it certainly happensin the church, right?
I mean, oh yeah.
We can be very quick to throwaccusations at other.
(33:11):
I'm only talking about otherCatholics.
I mean, obviously we can do itas a society towards all sorts
of groups, but you know,question the value of a person's
faith or their beliefs, right?
I I forget who used to say this,but we I probably heard it
multiple times in seminary, justlike be very cautious about
(33:31):
throwing around the H word, theheresy word, and accusing
someone of being a heretic.
It's just an incrediblydangerous thing.
And once that caps off, it'soff.
You know, now we're just wecan't trust anybody.
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
Yeah, and I like the I think experiencing as priests
like in Pennsylvania who whoexperienced a grand jury report
with the investigation againstpriests over the last since
1940s, like seeing the veracityof the cases that were there,
but at the same time feelingthis at least for a little
(34:07):
period of time that everybodythought all of us were guilty
was a great experience for us tobe aware of the way we've done
that to others as well, to likebe be on that side of it was a
great experience for mespiritually.
SPEAKER_03 (34:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:26):
So here obviously this show uses not too
fantastical of a situation.
I mean, there were aliensdirecting it, but uh uses this
story and this good story, thiswell-done story, to put on a
(34:48):
modern morality play about howquickly some of these things can
just absolutely tear down whatappeared to be a strong
community.
And certainly that's a very realrisk and a really, very real
threat.
I don't think it's gonna becaused by alien visitors, but it
doesn't necessarily we don'tneed them to do it, we can do
(35:10):
that ourselves.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Do you want to move on to thenext one?
SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
So one of your favorites was an episode called
22.
SPEAKER_02 (35:25):
Yeah, you wanted to say and how you remember it?
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
So just run through the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:32):
So I'll this is very briefly, and then you can we can
go into whatever details wethink are important.
Good.
It is a woman in a hospital bedwho has had a nervous breakdown,
and she's an actress, I believe,right?
SPEAKER_02 (35:51):
A dancer.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
Dancer.
She keeps having this nightmarethat she is going down into the
basement of the hospital intothe morgue and being invited by
a nurse to take her place in themorgue.
So she has this dream over andover again, and it's causing a
lot of distress.
(36:13):
And eventually she's dischargedand she's about to board a
plane, and she sees the nursefrom her dream, who is actually
a flight attendant, inviting herto get on the plane in the same
seat, number 22, as the bed shewas being ushered into in the
(36:37):
dream, which was in a morgue.
She screams, runs the oppositedirection, and then the plane
explodes.
Is that a pretty good summary?
Yeah.
In 30 seconds or less.
SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
Yeah, it's pretty good.
And and so, like, the reason Ilike it, at first I like it's it
that is the scariest thing forme is a mental breakdown and
just confounding what's real ornot.
Because her own doctors weresaying it's just a dream, but
there seems to be evidence oflike, how did she know that the
(37:08):
morgue room number was 22?
How did she know it was on thebasement?
So there's there's like thingshappening from the dream that
seems to be some sort ofclairvoyance or or ability to
see something else.
And Hitchcock plays with some ofthese like ESP or supernatural
things of premonition or evenlike you mean Sterling?
SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
Did you mean Hitchcock or Serling?
SPEAKER_02 (37:32):
Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry, yeah, good point,
Sterling.
And and and like even like bylocation in some of the episodes
as well, where somebody seems tohave experienced something
somewhere else, even though theyweren't there.
And in this one, she has thispremonition of something that's
real.
And like when we have, I mean, Ibelieve in supernatural
experiences like that, and Idon't necessarily have like a
(37:54):
justification always for themthrough faith.
Like, I obviously I believe Godhas power over everything, but
why or how or when somebodyexperiences like some sort of
ESP or some sort of supernaturalphenomenon, I don't know.
But like when someone does haveit and it freaks them out like
that, which is is somewhatcommon or usually happens, like
(38:16):
uh occurrences of ESP usuallyhappen when somebody's in a like
a super high stress situationand they they can't like beckon
it, it just like happens andthey have a vision of something
or they feel something or theyknow something.
And a couple of wavy lines, butuh she has this premonition and
it's real, and it's like, is ithelping her or hurting her?
(38:37):
Because it puts her into ahospital as a mental breakdown.
She she can't like get hersanity back, it's scaring her,
she can't tell what's real andwhat's not real.
The doctor is like condemningher, her own age and doesn't
want to visit her, but at theend of the day, it was a real
premonition and it saved herlife.
And so, like, I think it's justyeah, an interesting moral
question to think like, is thatgood?
(38:58):
Like, would it have been betterfor her to leave a normal life
and just die on that plane likeeverybody else did?
Or how how do we, if we do havepremonitions or or some sort of
supernatural feeling oroccurrence, how do we control
those or work those into our ownsanity?
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (39:22):
Yeah, I mean, and and most of us have like some
sort of experience, like a dejavu experience, or like you
recognize something that youprobably shouldn't recognize, or
you have like we do havedifferent levels, different
people have different levels ofinstinctual feelings.
Somebody that has really goodinstincts has trouble trusting
other people because they've hadan instinct, something was right
(39:44):
or wrong, and then it wasn'tbelieved, and then they don't
believe anybody.
I think of remember the one timewe were uh driving with Hickon,
and you kept saying, Don't go onthis road, we're gonna get a
flat tire.
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
Yeah, that wasn't an instinct, there was nothing
supernatural.
There were a bunch of dragonrocks on the road.
I'm not supernatural.
I I refuse that as an example ofyou definitely had a
premonition, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:10):
Remember, remember when there's number 22 on the
road and we just kept driving?
SPEAKER_01 (40:15):
I do.
Oh, I remember.
SPEAKER_02 (40:23):
Yeah, so I I I and I think like in Catholicism, like
ESP is a is a more as a secularterm, and like people have
experiences with it.
Stephen King writes about it allthe time, and that's one of the
reasons people like it is likethey see some of those abilities
as possible or like somethingthey recognize in someone else,
(40:46):
and then like in Catholicism, wewe believe like God can do
miracles, or we do believe likesaints by locate sometimes, or
they have an ability tointerpret something, or
something happens throughprayer, but there's not like a
meshing, I feel like, or uh anidentification of like how
(41:07):
they're unmerited gracessometimes and they're not
related to somebody's holiness.
And so yeah, I just think that'sa really curious topic.
Do you have any commentary on onany of those capacities or or
thoughts on the episode at all?
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
What's that?
Sorry, my mic wasmalfunctioning.
What'd you say?
SPEAKER_02 (41:33):
Oh probably SP.
Probably you did something toit.
Do you yeah, do you have anythoughts on the episode or or
about like any like phenom likesupernatural phenomena like that
or anything?
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Yeah, I'm not sure I read anything super deep into
this episode personally.
And I don't know, I honestly,I'm not sure what what the
lesson necessarily is.
Like you have information youshouldn't use it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
Do you believe in like the gift of like a
premonition or other gifts oflike or just like occurrences of
of some sort of extrasensoryperception or or anything like
that?
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
No, no, I'm not uh I like I I'm certainly open to
information to the contrary.
I just haven't necessarilypersonally in my life seen any
convincing evidence thatanything like that's real.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
What about the guy at the beginning of Ghostbusters
who's looking at the cards?
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
Yeah, that is the one, yeah, that's the one piece
of the evidence that you wouldtrust.
That's the thing.
I do have I just trust thatpiece of evidence.
That's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:55):
But there it doesn't matter, actually, because he
shot something.
Yeah, so I like I was tryingwhen you when you talked about
like that theme for this uhparticular episode to like spin
(43:18):
an angle that I would have on itand a lesson, and I had trouble
with that, but that's whythere's two hosts.
SPEAKER_02 (43:28):
Exactly.
Yeah, so so yeah, that as far aslike if you just uh like have no
belief or experience of likelike coincidences happening with
people or people having likeideas pop in their head that are
how like yeah, premonitions orsomething like that, then I
guess that the episode's notthat interesting at all.
SPEAKER_01 (43:46):
Well, I I guess maybe I we'd have the same
conclusion that don't listen tovisions you have in your head.
Well, no, I'm the premonition.
SPEAKER_02 (43:55):
How how do you yeah, how do you test uh I think
that's the question is like ifif you do have a vision like
this, like how do you know it'sreal or not real?
And how do you test it and howdo you stay sane with it?
Right.
So I like I appreciate that it'slike starting that conversation,
even though we can't seem to goanywhere with it.
Right.
Don't believe anything that'snot right in front of you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:16):
So I are you acting like it's crazy that I don't
believe in ESP?
Like that's no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
I'm I'm like exaggerating you to like a like
a British empiricist, but right,yeah.
No, it's not crazy.
You're right, it's definitelyfringe paranormal stuff, but I I
do believe in it so a lot.
So I think it's you believe init a lot.
I I would do I definitelybelieve, I definitely believe
people have like gifts of ESP orlike instances of serious
(44:45):
premonitions or seriouscapacities to communicate.
I mean, like I just like likequantum mechanics, like the way
the the spin on an electronic itis, but it does.
It's like it's fast and thespeed of light, they communicate
with each other in a way, and Ido believe like that type of
communication is happening too.
I do believe in like likebi-location of project PO.
(45:06):
I do believe you by located.
But I think like just becauseproject PO is holy isn't the
only like I think things likethat happen where people have an
experience of being somewhereelse or out of body or or
whatever, and that that's notexplainable.
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:23):
I mean, that's fine.
I I but to me, sayingsomething's not explainable is
not the same as like developingsome theory.
So, like it you've gone beyondlike there are things that we
can't explain and and started toexplain them.
SPEAKER_02 (45:38):
Yeah, well, I I'm saying that's the step, that's
the step.
But I'm saying, like, you yeah,we can't explain why she got the
premonition or how to even likescientifically whittle down to
what's the premonition, why it'sa premonition.
SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Yeah, uh, but if somebody came to me and they had
a prem like, is it possible thatit's something?
Yeah, it's more likely that it'snot.
Yeah.
Oh, I yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:04):
I would agree that my my position is more likely
that it's not.
I was just reading an article onthe Vatican updated its norms on
how bishops are supposed to testlike new apparitions or
eucharistic miracles in 2024because there was problems with
the old norms from the 70s oflike how people test like a
(46:27):
Marian site like Majigori orsomething like that, as to
whether the Vatican needs to sayimmediately it's supernatural or
not supernatural, because it'sso hard to test something like
that.
And like all we can do is likemake judgments on it's in
accordance with the faith ornot, or it seems to be damaging
to spirituality.
But the Vatican was veryconcerned that like you wouldn't
(46:47):
take a paranormal, extraordinarything like that and rank it
above the gospel.
Like we have our tools ofunderstanding knowledge that are
standard and like Jesus is thefullness of revelation.
But it is possible that God ispermitting these operations, and
if they are, like we can't justcompletely ignore it.
(47:10):
It shouldn't trump anythingelse, but you can't just
complete like it's a curiousthing that tells us something.
So I think like the rulesbecoming more stricter is what
you're saying.
Like, more than likely somethingdidn't happen.
You're imagining something, butthere's a possibility, and so
like we should have somecriteria or or some way to
(47:32):
evaluate right somethingparanormal's happening.
SPEAKER_01 (47:37):
The criteria of is if the plane blows up, then
maybe you're right.
Maybe she was right, or maybenot, maybe it just blew up.
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Maybe it was an incredible coincidence.
SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
Maybe there's only so many numbers.
That's not true.
There's not infinite numbers,although there's only so many
numbers that your plane seat canbe.
Good point.
So quick, because I know we'rerunning late, just we had two
other episodes that both of us,I think, had some stuff to say
(48:10):
about, and they are both indifferent ways, completely
different ways, about a topicthat comes up very often, not
only in Christianity and WadiCherith, but in the Twilight
Zone, which is death.
There was one episode called TheHitchhiker, and we'll just like
(48:30):
run, describe both episodes andthen talk about them both.
Do you want to do that?
Or talk about themindependently?
SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
Uh no, I we can talk about them both because we'll
keep these a little more minimalcompared to the other two.
SPEAKER_01 (48:41):
So the episode is called The Hitchhiker, and it is
about a young woman from NewYork who is driving across the
country, and it opens with herand a mechanic after she had
just had an accident.
As she's driving along thecountry, she is continuously
followed by a hitchhiker, anondescript man who's not
(49:03):
particularly threatening, but isalways there.
She sees him over and over againon the side of the road as she
drives across the country.
She sees him when he stops whenshe stops, and she begins to
panic, interacts with a couplepeople, a gas station owner, a
sailor who is traveling to SanDiego, and she's just totally
(49:29):
becoming unhinged.
She's unraveling because of thishitchhiker.
So at one point, she stops at apayphone and she says she needs
to hear a familiar voice to calmher down.
So she calls her mother.
A person she doesn't recognizeanswers the phone and informs
her that her mother is in thehospital after a nervous
(49:50):
breakdown because her daughterdied in a car accident on Route
11 in Pennsylvania eight daysago.
The woman then comes to therealization that she is in fact
dead.
She's a ghost.
She, after coming to thatrealization, finds some degree
of peace and calm, gets backinto the car into the car.
(50:14):
The hitchhiker is in the backseat and tells her, I believe
you're going my way.
The implication being thehitchhiker is death.
She has accepted her death, andnow she's moving on.
The other episode is calledWilloughby.
Do you want to summarize that ordo you want to?
SPEAKER_02 (50:36):
Oh, you can do it if you got it and ready to go.
SPEAKER_01 (50:39):
So Willoughby, Willoughby opens with a man at a
very stressful job with a bossthat's pushing him harder and
harder and harder.
He is on the train home fromwork and has a dream about a
stop that he had not seen beforecalled Willoughby.
In this dream, somehow we'vetraveled back in time to the
(51:01):
1800s, and Willoughby isdescribed as this incredibly
peaceful town.
The man we go on to see has apretty unsupportive wife who is
driven, ambitious, wants acertain quality of life, while
the man would like to slow downa little bit more, isn't quite
(51:25):
interested in always driving forthat next promotion.
He continues to have this dreamand eventually decides he's
going to get off the train atthe Willoughby stop.
He does walking into thisidyllic 19th century town that's
peaceful and they're singing andeverything's nice.
(51:46):
This the episode ends with therevelation that the man had
jumped off the train and diedand was picked up by a funeral
director known as Willoughby andSons.
So he's dead.
Not in some 19th century town.
SPEAKER_02 (52:06):
Turns out it's impossible to take a train to a
19th century town.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Turns out that's not possible.
So obviously both about death,but with very different lessons,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
And both about kind of psychotic breakdowns.
SPEAKER_01 (52:20):
Every Twilight Zone episode's about a psychotic
breakdown.
SPEAKER_02 (52:23):
And what your brain does.
I mean, that's what it is.
It's like your brain's put in apressure cooker and you start to
imagine or see or open it up toother possibilities.
SPEAKER_01 (52:32):
Yeah.
Right.
So a lot of them for the firstone, for the hitchhiker, a lot
of episodes of this show areabout coming to accept death and
be at peace with dying.
What there's no greater fear,Serling rightly recognizes, than
death.
And in the show characters oftencome to the slow realization
(52:57):
that they should not befrightened by death.
And obviously, there's a strongcorrelation to Christianity
there, bodily resurrection andthe defeat of death by Jesus
Christ being somewhat central tothe Christian message.
So I do like that the showcontinuously has uh creatively
(53:23):
and using imagination, a view ofdeath that is not stark and
terrifying, and that charactersare often able to move from this
fear of death to thisacceptance.
SPEAKER_02 (53:40):
Yeah, so I think it's not untouchable.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:42):
Right.
And I and I like that.
Now Willoughby, they'recertainly moving past the fear
of death, but in in a differentway.
unknown (53:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:51):
You want to talk about that a little bit?
Like not the only theme ofWilloughby.
Yeah.
I think you're going to touch onsome other themes.
SPEAKER_02 (53:57):
I I would I like for for me, Willoughby is
interesting because it justshows the the pressures of the
world and like how ourpriorities change and what what
it is like to have the pressure,especially of a mismatched
marriage where somebody is ismore relaxed and is attracted to
(54:18):
someone who's ambitious and howhow that doesn't work out.
But I don't where are yougetting at with will it be going
beyond death?
SPEAKER_01 (54:26):
No, it's about death, but in a different way I
meant.
SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (54:30):
But back to the marriage thing, and I think
that's interesting.
There are so in our marriagepreparation in the Catholic
Church, there are a lot ofquestions and a lot of
opportunities to addressfinancial disagreements between
prospective bride and groom.
(54:52):
And I think for some people thatcan feel like shallow or
unimportant, and and part of itis just like avoiding arguments
and learning how to worktogether.
But I also think like like youpointed out, and I never thought
of it this way, part of it isabout making sure you're on the
same page of what kind of futureyou want.
It's important.
SPEAKER_02 (55:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Cause I mean, the wife, Iwouldn't say the wife is evil,
like just because she comes froma successful family and wants to
be a successful family, likeprobably the guy presented
himself as someone also wantingto be successful when they got
married.
So, like in the recap or in theshow, watching the show, if
you're uh sympathizing,empathizing with the man, you
she could seem cold, but yeah,it's uh I also feel like he's
(55:38):
being a bum because he justwants to live in a 19th century
town and have music and ridebicycles, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:45):
Right, yeah, and just not do anything, I guess,
right?
Yeah, what else hit you aboutthat episode?
Or or or hitchhiker, either one?
SPEAKER_02 (55:54):
Both of them I could I like it stresses you out
watching a lot of the episodesstress you out watching how the
protagonist is struggling, andlike just with the paranormal
activity, like stuff I've readabout that, like it it typically
manifests when you're stressedout and overwhelmed, and like
something needs to happen, or onthe other side, a psychotic
(56:15):
break happens in the same way,and I think like him exploring,
pushing you to the edge of yourhumanity to break through it,
either actually break down orbreak through is really
interesting, and like you'resaying, another human limit is
death, and he's he's pushing usup against that limit.
So the show is is just sobeautiful for that.
(56:36):
And and like you're saying, froma Catholic perspective, we're
expected, like the point of theBeatitudes and things like that
is we're supposed to breakthrough the limits that we
understand and and expect aresurrection after a death.
SPEAKER_01 (56:49):
Right.
And and and you're right, toyour point, every instance I've
ever heard of of a 19th centurytown appearing with a train stop
has been related to some kind ofpsychological distress.
So I you know you're right.
Thank you.
Yeah, but but and and I and Iwonder if a lot of the focus on
(57:14):
mental health, and I I don'twant to read into it
necessarily, but I'm going toanyway, has to do with Serling's
own struggle with PTSD.
You know, maybe not the samestresses and issues as some of
his characters, but he wascertainly familiar with some of
those battles.
SPEAKER_02 (57:36):
Yeah, and and does he think he's a better person
because he he went through them?
And I would say, like, yeah,probably he does.
Yeah, I don't know.
Because he's trying to drag usall through them, too.
SPEAKER_01 (57:51):
So I was yeah, I I it it's just uh I can't
recommend enough.
It's a fantastic show.
We had a at the high schoolwhere I was the chaplain, one of
the theology teachers, JoeSefchak, used to regularly in
his class show Twilight Zoneepisodes.
(58:11):
And at his at his funeral, thethe homilist, who was a priest
who had him in class, basicallysummarized an entire Twilight
Zone episode for the homily,which I thought was kind of a
neat tribute.
Yeah, that's cool.
And I and I think he recognizedthat this is an exceptional use
(58:35):
of parables to offer some kindof spiritual or psychological or
social or moral message, many ofwhich are very consistent with
what the gospel says and what webelieve as Catholics and as
Christians.
(58:55):
So it's a great show and it'sfun, you know, horror, sci-fi,
they're fun genres.
So it's I would recommend it.
SPEAKER_02 (59:05):
And it's spooky.
SPEAKER_00 (59:07):
Spooky.
SPEAKER_02 (59:08):
And ease of your imagination.
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
Thanks, everybody.
We'll see you next time.
It's our Halloween episode, and this year we're
going to talk about one of thegreat sources of modern
parables, the Twilight Zone.
(00:46):
I'm Father Alex Roach, andjoining me today, as always, is
Father Anthony Dill.
SPEAKER_02 (00:51):
Hey, Alex.
I feel like it's the podcast ofheart, too.
SPEAKER_01 (00:55):
Of heart?
Like Captain Planet.
Is this a Captain Planetepisode?
SPEAKER_02 (00:59):
Well, unfortunately, maybe Captain Planet will be
around Earth Day, but this isHalloween special.
SPEAKER_01 (01:06):
And for our Halloween special, as you know,
we've decided to talk about uhone of the most influential
television programs of all time,the Twilight Zone.
But before we get into it, Ithink all of our listeners are
wondering the same thing.
So I'm gonna ask it on theirbehalf.
All right.
Go ahead.
(01:27):
What are you gonna be forHalloween?
SPEAKER_02 (01:29):
Oh.
Thought we were gonna both guesswhat that question was on three.
SPEAKER_01 (01:36):
What did you think I was gonna ask?
SPEAKER_02 (01:38):
No idea.
I was gonna say the mostridiculous.
Nothing was popping into my headwhen you say the question that
everybody's wondering.
I don't have a costume.
Okay.
How about you?
Do you have one?
SPEAKER_01 (01:51):
Well, I've been asking the kids like constantly
what I should be for Halloween.
It's like such an easy go-to toget kids interacting this time
of year.
But when I got back, so I wasjust doing a seminary visit, and
when I got back, and I just cameinto the office for the first
time because I got back afterthe office was closed, and
sitting on my chair was anastronaut costume.
(02:13):
Wow.
But it's a double XL.
Ouch.
So I'm not sure if that's gonnabe much use.
SPEAKER_02 (02:21):
Don't develop an eating disorder over that.
Seriously.
That's cool though.
That's nice that they know youand think about you.
I guess.
What kids?
Your parishioners?
SPEAKER_01 (02:33):
No, I think it was one of the secretaries, Scott.
I'm assuming it was a secretary.
It might have been aparishioner.
I have no idea who it's from.
It's nice.
They're on a they're on a we'rewe're doing this thing with the
local middle schools right now.
So there's so many Amazonpackages of like supplies for
kids coming to the parish.
And so it could have easilygotten delivered here, and I
(02:55):
would not have noticed itbecause there's like I just
don't even open them, I justbring them to the office.
And all the and everybody, allmy neighbors probably think I'm
just addicted to Amazonshopping.
SPEAKER_02 (03:06):
What have you you haven't tried it on or opened it
up?
SPEAKER_01 (03:09):
I just no, it was just when I came in here to
record this episode.
SPEAKER_02 (03:13):
So you don't know what the helmet looks like.
SPEAKER_01 (03:15):
Like, is it a helmet or it's just like uh there's no
helmet, it's like one of thesuper cheap ones, okay.
You know, off the rack.
It's not as pack.
I don't think anybody's gonnaconfuse me for an astronaut.
We'll say that.
SPEAKER_02 (03:27):
You just keep getting saluted.
What'd you do with an astronaut?
SPEAKER_01 (03:32):
Yeah, uh well, they are military mostly, right?
SPEAKER_03 (03:34):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (03:37):
So it's it's become our tradition every October to
do a little bit of a spookyepisode seasonal to dive into
the theology.
So there's a little spooky andthis year.
We decided to talk a little bitabout the Twilight Zone because
(04:00):
it dives into such powerfulmoral issues, it's usually
horror or science fictionthemed, so it's write on message
with Halloween.
And I discovered when we came upwith this idea that this was
really your introduction to theTwilight Zone, wasn't it?
SPEAKER_02 (04:20):
I've seen like it on TV before, but no, I didn't I
didn't know the Twilight Zonewell, so yeah, I I really
enjoyed.
I didn't I'd just been watchingfor the last couple weeks a
couple episodes, but yeah, it'suh it's excellent.
I like it too because it fitsour theme.
Like it's spooky, but it's alsoI think we really highlight
imagination.
Like we we allow Halloween to bea time to really dive into
(04:42):
imagination, and I think thisdoes a great job provoking
thought and imagination.
SPEAKER_01 (04:49):
I'm gonna I'm gonna put a nickel in a jar for every
time through this whole podcastyou use the word imagination.
unknown (04:55):
Smart.
SPEAKER_01 (04:55):
How many nickels?
SPEAKER_02 (04:56):
Who gets the money at the end?
Who's getting those nickels?
SPEAKER_01 (05:01):
It'll go towards a Halloween costume.
SPEAKER_02 (05:03):
So that's how nice.
Is it all like derivatives?
Like if I say imagine, does thatcount?
SPEAKER_01 (05:10):
No, just imagination.
Wow, just the word imagination.
SPEAKER_02 (05:13):
High bar.
I can get it.
SPEAKER_01 (05:14):
That's a high bar.
SPEAKER_02 (05:15):
What kind of costume do you want?
SPEAKER_01 (05:19):
So The Twilight Zone, for people who don't know,
was a TV show, an anthologyseries that ran from 1959 to
1964.
It's 150 some odd episodes.
It is widely cited andreferenced.
There were a couple otheriterations throughout the years,
(05:41):
I think three others.
There was a movie in the 80swith John Lithgow.
It's huge cultural impact.
I will say, I think for a lot ofpeople like us that didn't grow
up when the Twilight Zone was atits height, the the fact that
(06:04):
it's black and white, the factthat the special effects look
like they're from the early 60s,the fact that some of the some
of the the episodes have reallygreat acting, but it's a little
uneven in some episode someepisodes it's not as good.
But I'll say despite all ofthat, the writing is universally
good, always good writing, andfor the vast majority of them,
(06:27):
the theme and the content andthe message and the twist is
genuinely good.
So even though it's this60-year-old show at this point,
60 years plus, I do think if youhaven't seen it, it is worth
checking out.
I don't think you'll regretwatching a few episodes.
SPEAKER_02 (06:48):
I was at like a little family gathering thing
with well, my one cousin washaving a bridal shower, and so
the guys of my family were at abar, and I brought up that I was
started watching the TwilightZone, and all my uncles just
like couldn't say enough aboutit, and it's like a huge
nostalgia thing for them, whichI didn't, yeah, like it's a huge
(07:08):
cultural event.
It overlaps, like you said, theyears too kind of overlapped the
second Vatican Council, which Ijust think is interesting for
creativity and imagination atthat time.
SPEAKER_01 (07:21):
Do you think that Twilight Zone influenced the
Second Vatican Council?
Is that why we think that likesome of the documents?
SPEAKER_02 (07:29):
No, I think I think like at least in America, like
it's it's starting, it's it'sopening a philosophical
conversation over public airwaysthat maybe wasn't there before.
Like you were talking about thegood writing and the writer,
we're gonna talk about the thehost of it, Rod Serling, is
responsible for kind of riding acultural wave at that time where
(07:53):
it was acceptable andunacceptable to start pushing
these philosophical moralquestions.
And I think like so that thatwave that existed then also kind
of existed in the Second VaticanCouncil with difficult moral and
and philosophical questions,existential questions.
SPEAKER_01 (08:11):
Yeah, uh yeah, I think you're right.
But there, I mean, the there isthat whole paragraph in Gadimet
Spez that deals use the analogyof a goblin on the wing of a
plane.
SPEAKER_02 (08:22):
Yeah, so I couldn't wait to hear what this paragraph
was gonna say.
SPEAKER_01 (08:28):
For those of you who don't know, Gaddium et Spez is
the constitution of the churchin the modern world, 1965,
Second Vatican Council, and itdoes not have that paragraph.
SPEAKER_02 (08:37):
I thought you were gonna say, for those of you who
don't know, a goblin is amythical green shit that
inhabits the forests.
SPEAKER_01 (08:44):
That that's a famous episode that we're not speaking
about tonight with WilliamShatner that was then redone for
the Twilight Zone, the moviewith John Lithgow.
So one of the more famousepisodes of the Twilight Zone.
Yeah, it's a good one.
You should watch it.
SPEAKER_02 (09:00):
I haven't seen it, and I know I need to I need to
do it.
SPEAKER_01 (09:03):
Yeah.
So you want to talk a little bitabout old Rod first before we
jump into everything?
SPEAKER_02 (09:08):
Yeah, it was funny when I said to my uncles, I was
watching it, though, my oneuncle, like the first thing he
said was, Oh, Rod Sterling was areally cool, interesting guy.
And so I looked him up a littlebit, and he was a World War II
vet and a paratroop, aparatrooper, and went and was
deployed to the Philippines andkind of commented on some of his
(09:31):
writing.
He he was a a gifted writer andthen honed his craft when he got
back.
And a lot of his creativewriting was coming from the
experience and trauma of beingin the Second World War.
And so, like a lot of the moralthings and like spooky things is
coming from like a pretty darkplace and like a therapeutic
(09:53):
place with a whole generation ofmen that kind of experience the
same thing.
SPEAKER_01 (09:56):
Yeah, he he certainly had PTSD, which they
wouldn't have called that at thetime.
And I mean, he watched his bestfriend die over there, and it
was incredibly horrific.
Yeah, and I and I've I've I'veseen that in a lot of places
that writing for him was a formof therapy, which is which is
kind of a neat aspect of hislife and of this show.
(10:20):
Yeah, so he uh he was fromoriginally, he grew up in
Binghamton, he was born onChristmas Day, 1924, Jewish kid,
belonged to a reform Jewishtemple, and seemingly had a
pretty good childhood, was awell-adjusted kid, and then that
formative experience of theSecond World War, which
(10:43):
traumatized a lot of people inthe greatest generation,
obviously, and sort of led to alot of the views that come out
throughout the rest of the show.
And and in fact, some someepisodes of the show are set
during World War II and dealwith a lot of the themes that he
(11:04):
took from his time there.
Very, very anti-war.
So I I think among the manysocial issues that he seemed to
have strong opinions on, uh,certainly uh his experience in
the Philippines led him to takea pretty strong stance against
war.
Among other things, I meanyou'll see as we talk some
(11:27):
social issues like especiallyracism, anti-Semitism, a lot of
forms of prejudice, in additionto a lot of the psychological
and emotional themes that comeup throughout the show.
SPEAKER_02 (11:37):
Yeah, just confronting death in general,
yeah, yeah, or psychoticbreakdowns in general.
He seems to have no problemtalking about.
SPEAKER_00 (11:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (11:45):
He had a he had a bronze star and a purple heart,
too.
SPEAKER_01 (11:49):
Yeah.
So he was wounded.
And he go ahead.
Did you see any interviews withhim?
SPEAKER_02 (11:55):
Yeah, I was watching obviously you see him talking
every episode, but yeah, I was Iwas watching one of where they
were asking him questions aboutcensorship, which seemed to be
kind of one of the ways thatTwilight Zone was developed
because he was writing for othershows, and there was a couple
things affecting censorship atthe time.
One was just sponsorship.
(12:16):
So whoever was paying for theshow or the main sponsor had so
much creative control and couldedit some of the things that
would happen.
And also there was generalfeedback from the population.
Like people could write lettersback and say, like, I don't like
you treating this issue, or justthe overall kind of like
(12:36):
Hollywood system could censorthings.
And he was doing controversialtopics.
So one of the reasons they didthe Twilight Zone wasn't like he
was a good sci-fi writer, but hesaid in the genre of sci-fi, you
could say, Oh no, this isn't amoral, this isn't a moral show,
it's it's just sci-fi, and thishappens to be what the aliens
are doing, or this happens to bewhat they're doing, but it's
(12:57):
kind of just the guise to beable to talk about deeper
philosophical issues.
SPEAKER_01 (13:01):
Yeah, I think that's that's an angle we can talk
about a little bit more.
But first, uh I wanted to ask ifyou noticed that in any video
except the intro to the well, Imaybe it is in the intro to the
show, I'm not sure.
In any video I saw of the man,he had a cigarette in his hand.
He never did not have acigarette in his hand.
SPEAKER_02 (13:24):
He also didn't open his jaw when he talks.
Like, I don't know if thatbothers you at all during the
intro, but it's like his teethnever get more than like a
quarter inch apart.
SPEAKER_01 (13:32):
I respect that.
So tight jaw locked down.
Efficient.
That's a that's what we call afish.
Uh yeah, well, I I to yourpoint, like we mentioned
already, a lot of deep themes,not all of which are social
commentaries, but many of whichare throughout a Twilight Zone.
(13:57):
Well one of the episodes we'regonna talk about today does
discuss more social issues.
Uh, some of them are morepsychological, but I will say he
had a a few instances where helaid out why he thought a show
(14:19):
like The Twilight Zone wasuniquely positioned to make
social commentary.
And and you hinted at thisalready, but he even used the
word parable, and he talkedabout how teaching and and
expressing a lot of his viewsand his thoughts through parable
(14:42):
or through the stories that hewrote allowed him to engage
people that otherwise would haveshut him down, allowed him to
introduce ideas to people thatthey perhaps would not have been
open to had he just come out andsay African Americans are
(15:04):
deserving of all the same rightsas whites in the United States.
If he just would have said that,he probably would have been shut
down.
But by using these stories toget that message across, he
thought he was able to reachaudiences that he otherwise
wouldn't.
And I thought it was veryinteresting.
He said, Is it possible thatthey missed the message?
(15:26):
Yeah, that's possible.
But I believe at leastperipherally, they're receiving
some of the message regardless.
And I thought that was reallyinteresting.
And obviously, there's aconnection to our faith there.
Somebody we know, both of us,teaches almost exclusively in
parables Jesus of Nazareth.
SPEAKER_02 (15:48):
Okay, I was thinking it might be Jesus, too.
I was like, I don't know anybodyelse.
Except for Rod Serling.
SPEAKER_01 (15:57):
Yeah, I don't know.
Do you have any thoughts on anyof anything I just said?
SPEAKER_02 (16:01):
No, I I I agree with you, and so like it's
interesting you're kind ofalmost shaping him as seeing his
primary role as a prophet morethan a storyteller.
SPEAKER_01 (16:11):
And I think he thinks they're the same thing.
I think a storyteller is aprophet.
And and in fact, one of thestories we're going to talk
about tonight is an older storythat he adapted.
It's not his story necessarily,which is kind of interesting
too.
So I I think he just thinksthat's how the medium how the
medium works.
SPEAKER_02 (16:31):
That's the point in being able to tell stories.
Is that you can show you?
SPEAKER_01 (16:34):
Or one of the one of the points.
SPEAKER_02 (16:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (16:38):
Yeah.
I he obviously was an early andstrong believer in the power of
television to tell thesestories.
And I just obviously you canoverstate this, but it's it's
pretty interesting, especiallyin the context of something like
(17:00):
Wadi Cherith, to look at at thisnotion that not only can you
find God and morality on theperipheries and in these
indirect ways, but according toSerling, it's it's the
(17:21):
preferable way to do it.
SPEAKER_02 (17:23):
Yeah.
Yeah, because the biggerreality.
I mean, that's the reason one ofthe reasons the gospels are the
way they are, too.
You're right.
It's a it's a bigger realitythat than can be expressed in
direct information.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (17:40):
And and science fiction and horror, the two
genres I think you would link tothe Twilight Zone the most, are
pretty famous for doing exactlythat, for just making
commentaries.
But we're talking about anothersociety, right?
It's a Martian saying it, it'sit's a Klingon saying it, it's
(18:00):
you know, the Jedi saying it.
It has nothing to do with ourcurrent situation here and now,
so you can kind of get away withmaking some some points that
would be tougher if it was acontemporary setting.
SPEAKER_03 (18:13):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (18:15):
In terms of religious beliefs, uh, he uh, as
I mentioned, was raised in uhreform Judaism.
Uh his wife was a UnitarianUniversalist, so a Christian
Unitarian, and he does seem tohave gotten pretty involved in
that church later in life.
Not a lot of explicit religionfrom him, but I did uh find a
(18:42):
commencement address that hegave at Binghamton High School
in 1968, I think, in which he uhtold the students to find faith
in something worthy of theirfaith, and that they must find
faith in their life, thatthere's no replacement, nothing
(19:03):
can fill that role.
And and you also see throughoutthe show a lot of religious
allusions and very positiveportrayals of religion and its
role in society.
So while certainly not Catholicand not what we would generally
consider very religious, Serlingand the show in general paint a
(19:25):
very positive picture ofreligion.
And and many episodes areexplicitly focused on religion,
actually.
SPEAKER_02 (19:31):
Yeah, like the I'm thinking the howler episode with
uh when they trap the devil, andit's like in a monastery, but it
kind of goes out of its way toshow it's not a Catholic
monastery.
But the same kind of conceptexists of good and evil, and and
using the like actually having acharacter which is is the a
tempter and a and an evil one.
SPEAKER_01 (19:52):
Yeah, there's another episode, The Obsolete
Man, where it's this portrayalof a society without religion,
and the protagonist is a mantalking about faith and how he
holds to religion and andreading and books, and there's
so it's it's generally apositive view.
Yeah.
Do you want to talk about acouple of the episodes?
Or do you have anything else ingeneral?
SPEAKER_02 (20:13):
No, let's get into the the good episodes here.
SPEAKER_01 (20:18):
All right, what are we gonna talk about first?
SPEAKER_02 (20:20):
Let's talk with I I think we'll spend the most time
on monsters.
Do you want to start with themonsters on Maple Street or
what's it called?
SPEAKER_01 (20:28):
Yeah, so this is a first season episode called The
Monsters Are Due on MapleStreet.
Now, I want to say we will spoilthese episodes.
So I'm if if you're not if youdon't care, you can listen.
If you want to go watch theepisodes, that could be cool
too, and listen to what we haveto say.
If you've already seen them oryou remember them or jogging
(20:49):
your memory, you know, you canlisten however you want.
But while we're not gonnanecessarily like do a
step-by-step recount of all ofthese episodes that we talk
about, we are gonna spoil them.
And the episodes we're gonnadiscuss are The Monsters Are Due
on Maple Street, 22, TheHitchhiker, and Willoughby.
(21:12):
So those are the four episodeswe're gonna we're gonna talk
about a little bit, and we willspoil them.
So you'll we'll give away thetwist.
Yes, you don't want to set thegroundwork for what's going on
in the monsters are doing maplestreet?
SPEAKER_02 (21:27):
Monsters are do on maple street is taking place in
like a generic town, andsomething flies overhead, and
then and they're all the powergoes out, the phones stop
working.
Spooky.
So spooky.
And like back in the day, Iguess everybody just came out of
their house and confirmedreality with their neighbors.
(21:47):
I don't know if that's whatwould happen.
I guess people would do thattoday.
I guess like during COVID,everybody would come out and see
what everybody else is doing.
SPEAKER_00 (21:54):
Kind of socially distant.
SPEAKER_02 (21:57):
Yeah, we're so, but uh even yeah, our society is so
like isolated.
I don't know if it'd be the sameway that everybody would come
out of their house as soon asthere's a problem and try to
figure out what all theneighbors have feeling.
SPEAKER_01 (22:12):
So yeah, everybody comes out into the street and
they're panicking.
They saw something fly overhead,they assume it's a meteor, but
now the power's out.
None of their cars are starting,none of their lawnmowers are
starting.
Everybody checking lawnmowers.
They've got to check thelawnmower.
That's what I would do first.
(22:33):
What if if you can't mow yourlawn, that's chaos.
Think of all the plugs you'llhave all over the place.
SPEAKER_02 (22:38):
Think of all the judging that will happen.
I'd get a hernia trying to pullthat cord, just getting that
lawnmower started.
SPEAKER_01 (22:44):
I'm just getting spooky for maybe I'll go that
I'll go uncut, untended lawn forHalloween.
SPEAKER_02 (22:51):
The scariest, the scariest of all things.
You're getting like you'regetting like like clammy palms
right now, just thinking aboutnot having chills.
SPEAKER_01 (23:02):
I don't actually care that much about it.
So they're out there trying tofigure out what happens, and
then a kid, a child, startsreally getting everybody all
worked up by basicallyrecounting the science fiction
story he's heard, and that thealiens want them to stay.
(23:24):
That's why they shut everythingout.
And he knows he read it in astory, he saw it in a movie,
that it's definitely aliens.
And as happens when the kid saysthis, all the adults just
believe him.
SPEAKER_02 (23:35):
They like spoke this idea into everybody's head, and
then they can't shake it.
This guy's name is Tommy.
Tommy is like ruining everyone'slives in this thing.
SPEAKER_01 (23:43):
Well, he gets his later.
SPEAKER_02 (23:45):
And somebody even says that too.
They're like, oh, this kid justgives us a comic book plot, and
now we all believe it and wecan't let go of it.
And because of that, theneighbors who are gonna walk to
the next town to see ifeverything's shut off there,
too, were afraid to leavebecause he puts this idea in
their head, oh no, only thealiens who came ahead would go
(24:05):
to the other town.
They're the only one that wouldbe able to leave.
And then he says, only thealiens who were planted here
ahead of time would have any oftheir things working because the
aliens are letting their thingswork, and then somebody's car
turns on, and then we start tohave this.
Basically, anybody who hasanything that works, or anybody
who's a little different, isaccused, and people like in
(24:31):
general, this is a normal humanconcept that he feeds on.
If we feel like we don't belongor feel we feel there's danger,
we're not in the middle of thegroup, we'll immediately point
at somebody else to make themseem further outside.
So relatively we can seemfurther inside.
SPEAKER_01 (24:47):
And that's what happens.
So we're pointing out not justwhose car starts, but who does
something a little different,who likes to stargaze, who's up
late at night, who has a hamradio in the radio.
SPEAKER_02 (25:01):
Who has a ham radio?
Yep.
I didn't know about the hamradio.
What's that?
The one guy's like, I didn'tknow you had a ham radio.
Oh, yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_01 (25:10):
So they're just ganging up on each other and
accusing each other, and thisthis neighborhood, these
neighbors who are all friends,are all of a sudden at each
other's throats trying to findout who the aliens among them
are and convince everybody thatthey're not an alien.
It comes to a head, well, thatfurther comes to a head first
(25:33):
when a member, one of theirneighbors who had gone to the
next town over, starts walkingup, and he's it's dark, they
can't see who it is, and there'sone character who's trying to
calm everyone down, and anothercharacter rips uh a rifle from
his hand and shoots this guywalking in.
(25:55):
They walk over and realize itwas their neighbor, not an
alien, and so now a murder hasbeen committed.
SPEAKER_02 (26:02):
At first, he tells the one neighbor who's kind of
the leader, he's like, You gottashoot him.
And he's like, No, I'm not justgonna shoot a guy walking at us,
and he goes, Oh, maybe becauseyou're an alien and he's the
alien, and then like has toprove himself by shooting
someone not knowing who he is.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (26:18):
At this point, things continue to escalate.
Some lights are going on incertain houses, people start
throwing rocks, they decide thatit was this kid, Tommy, who
first planted the idea that mustbe the alien.
So they're going after this kid,and absolute chaos ensues, just
(26:42):
like the whole neighborhoodripping each other apart.
And you think, all right, that'sit.
There's the uh there's thetwist, there was no twist.
But then you see two aliens whowere watching and had shut all
the devices out and reveal thattheir plan all along was not to
invade and attack, but to findways to turn neighborhoods and
(27:06):
communities against each other,after which they can sweep in
and take over.
And end scene.
You can probably obviously seethe the message he's trying to
make with this episode.
And you have to remember likethis is a man who is has lived
(27:29):
through you know the red scare,McCarthyism.
It's in the midst of the ColdWar.
So probably in his mind is thisfear that a neighbor is going to
accuse someone of being acommunist.
Uh, he's also obviously uh grewup in a Jewish household, so I'm
sure anti-Semitism is part ofwhat he's getting at here.
(27:54):
But uh I think just in general,he's uh laying out the dangers
of mob mentality, of accusationsthat can fly around, and how
quickly when faced withadversity uh we turn on each
other, we tear down anyonethat's different, and we just
(28:18):
devolve.
SPEAKER_02 (28:20):
Yeah, this this I guess then just this human need
to feel like we're in the circleand be willing to trade anything
to make sure that we're in thecircle.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (28:31):
Good thing 60 years later, that's not a problem
anymore, isn't it?
We we dodged a bullet.
We overcame that flaw inhumanity.
SPEAKER_02 (28:39):
I yeah, obviously there's and now's a good time
for anyone listening to startusing your imagination and apply
it to how you would apply ittoday.
But yeah, I I do want to say,like, I was thinking about this
from the perspective of like theBeatitudes, like blessed are you
who are poor, or like just kindof like the the call the gospel
(29:00):
some of the St.
Francis quotes, like, if we hadpossessions, then we then we
would need weapons to defendthem.
And I I there there's somethingabout the gospel simplicity of
not trying to make yourself seembetter than other people, or or
trying to live simply or poorly,or striving after a safety or a
(29:22):
security that comes frompoverty, because by having a
pride or having like makingyourself seem better than other
people, you're putting yourselfat risk to cause this type of
attempt to push you out of thecircle.
And so, like, there is like alike an incredible security, I
(29:43):
think, in in the concept ofevangelical poverty or or gospel
simplicity to forfeit membershipin a game like that.
SPEAKER_01 (29:53):
Right.
Yeah, nothing to protect.
SPEAKER_02 (29:56):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (29:57):
I I think also it's worth noting.
Jesus throughout his ministryspends a disproportionate amount
of time with outcasts, with theforeigner, with the leper, with
the undesirable, with the personthat is a little different or
(30:25):
looked down upon.
And yeah, adulterate.
Yeah, right.
The sinner.
It's especially important to dothat given our human nature to
so quickly turn on the personwho's different when things are
bad and and point to them as thecause of our problems.
SPEAKER_02 (30:47):
That's exactly what happened to Jesus.
SPEAKER_01 (30:49):
Right.
So so we have to like he has hehas to ingrain that in us so
firmly as a moral principle, asa part of the faith, as a as a
central tenant of his message,so that it's strong enough to
withstand what often happenswhen things go sour, because
(31:11):
that's going to be the firstgroup we're going to be tempted
to turn against.
SPEAKER_02 (31:14):
Yeah.
And that I mean that's what hashappened with the church.
And like we grow the fastestway, too, is imitating Jesus
completely or sharing hispassion through through
martyrdom.
Like people who say, I'm okaybeing the outsider and I'm okay
being the scapegoat in inparticipation with Jesus Christ
as the scapegoat.
SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
Right.
And and I think also just thethe danger of even starting to
hurl accusations, because that'swhat happens in this episode.
Once you start accusing oneanother of something, then then
the seal is off.
(31:56):
And now we're just gonna wildlythrow accusations, accusations
in every direction.
You know, which is why Jesusinstructs us like, let judge not
lest ye be judged, let he he whois without sin cast the first
stone, right?
Just because of how quicklythings again can devolve once we
(32:21):
start pointing fingers.
SPEAKER_02 (32:22):
Yeah.
Or I think of like St.
Teresa Bavilan in ourautobiography, constantly
calling herself like a worthlessworm, a stupid woman, or the
worst sinner of everyone.
Like you read that and you'relike, how can you think that?
But I think like once you'reidentifying with Christ so much,
you always are trying to makeyourself the away from the
(32:42):
center of the circle.
SPEAKER_01 (32:44):
Right.
Yeah.
What I think it can happen, andI don't know how much our
listeners would necessarily beexposed to this or aware of
this, but it certainly happensin the church, right?
I mean, oh yeah.
We can be very quick to throwaccusations at other.
(33:11):
I'm only talking about otherCatholics.
I mean, obviously we can do itas a society towards all sorts
of groups, but you know,question the value of a person's
faith or their beliefs, right?
I I forget who used to say this,but we I probably heard it
multiple times in seminary, justlike be very cautious about
(33:31):
throwing around the H word, theheresy word, and accusing
someone of being a heretic.
It's just an incrediblydangerous thing.
And once that caps off, it'soff.
You know, now we're just wecan't trust anybody.
SPEAKER_02 (33:46):
Yeah, and I like the I think experiencing as priests
like in Pennsylvania who whoexperienced a grand jury report
with the investigation againstpriests over the last since
1940s, like seeing the veracityof the cases that were there,
but at the same time feelingthis at least for a little
(34:07):
period of time that everybodythought all of us were guilty
was a great experience for us tobe aware of the way we've done
that to others as well, to likebe be on that side of it was a
great experience for mespiritually.
SPEAKER_03 (34:24):
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (34:26):
So here obviously this show uses not too
fantastical of a situation.
I mean, there were aliensdirecting it, but uh uses this
story and this good story, thiswell-done story, to put on a
(34:48):
modern morality play about howquickly some of these things can
just absolutely tear down whatappeared to be a strong
community.
And certainly that's a very realrisk and a really, very real
threat.
I don't think it's gonna becaused by alien visitors, but it
doesn't necessarily we don'tneed them to do it, we can do
(35:10):
that ourselves.
Yeah, right.
Yeah.
Do you want to move on to thenext one?
SPEAKER_02 (35:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:18):
So one of your favorites was an episode called
22.
SPEAKER_02 (35:25):
Yeah, you wanted to say and how you remember it?
SPEAKER_01 (35:29):
So just run through the whole thing.
SPEAKER_02 (35:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (35:32):
So I'll this is very briefly, and then you can we can
go into whatever details wethink are important.
Good.
It is a woman in a hospital bedwho has had a nervous breakdown,
and she's an actress, I believe,right?
SPEAKER_02 (35:51):
A dancer.
SPEAKER_01 (35:52):
Dancer.
She keeps having this nightmarethat she is going down into the
basement of the hospital intothe morgue and being invited by
a nurse to take her place in themorgue.
So she has this dream over andover again, and it's causing a
lot of distress.
(36:13):
And eventually she's dischargedand she's about to board a
plane, and she sees the nursefrom her dream, who is actually
a flight attendant, inviting herto get on the plane in the same
seat, number 22, as the bed shewas being ushered into in the
(36:37):
dream, which was in a morgue.
She screams, runs the oppositedirection, and then the plane
explodes.
Is that a pretty good summary?
Yeah.
In 30 seconds or less.
SPEAKER_02 (36:47):
Yeah, it's pretty good.
And and so, like, the reason Ilike it, at first I like it's it
that is the scariest thing forme is a mental breakdown and
just confounding what's real ornot.
Because her own doctors weresaying it's just a dream, but
there seems to be evidence oflike, how did she know that the
(37:08):
morgue room number was 22?
How did she know it was on thebasement?
So there's there's like thingshappening from the dream that
seems to be some sort ofclairvoyance or or ability to
see something else.
And Hitchcock plays with some ofthese like ESP or supernatural
things of premonition or evenlike you mean Sterling?
SPEAKER_01 (37:30):
Did you mean Hitchcock or Serling?
SPEAKER_02 (37:32):
Oh, yeah, sorry, sorry, yeah, good point,
Sterling.
And and and like even like bylocation in some of the episodes
as well, where somebody seems tohave experienced something
somewhere else, even though theyweren't there.
And in this one, she has thispremonition of something that's
real.
And like when we have, I mean, Ibelieve in supernatural
experiences like that, and Idon't necessarily have like a
(37:54):
justification always for themthrough faith.
Like, I obviously I believe Godhas power over everything, but
why or how or when somebodyexperiences like some sort of
ESP or some sort of supernaturalphenomenon, I don't know.
But like when someone does haveit and it freaks them out like
that, which is is somewhatcommon or usually happens, like
(38:16):
uh occurrences of ESP usuallyhappen when somebody's in a like
a super high stress situationand they they can't like beckon
it, it just like happens andthey have a vision of something
or they feel something or theyknow something.
And a couple of wavy lines, butuh she has this premonition and
it's real, and it's like, is ithelping her or hurting her?
(38:37):
Because it puts her into ahospital as a mental breakdown.
She she can't like get hersanity back, it's scaring her,
she can't tell what's real andwhat's not real.
The doctor is like condemningher, her own age and doesn't
want to visit her, but at theend of the day, it was a real
premonition and it saved herlife.
And so, like, I think it's justyeah, an interesting moral
question to think like, is thatgood?
(38:58):
Like, would it have been betterfor her to leave a normal life
and just die on that plane likeeverybody else did?
Or how how do we, if we do havepremonitions or or some sort of
supernatural feeling oroccurrence, how do we control
those or work those into our ownsanity?
SPEAKER_00 (39:20):
Yeah, I don't know.
SPEAKER_02 (39:22):
Yeah, I mean, and and most of us have like some
sort of experience, like a dejavu experience, or like you
recognize something that youprobably shouldn't recognize, or
you have like we do havedifferent levels, different
people have different levels ofinstinctual feelings.
Somebody that has really goodinstincts has trouble trusting
other people because they've hadan instinct, something was right
(39:44):
or wrong, and then it wasn'tbelieved, and then they don't
believe anybody.
I think of remember the one timewe were uh driving with Hickon,
and you kept saying, Don't go onthis road, we're gonna get a
flat tire.
SPEAKER_01 (39:57):
Yeah, that wasn't an instinct, there was nothing
supernatural.
There were a bunch of dragonrocks on the road.
I'm not supernatural.
I I refuse that as an example ofyou definitely had a
premonition, yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (40:10):
Remember, remember when there's number 22 on the
road and we just kept driving?
SPEAKER_01 (40:15):
I do.
Oh, I remember.
SPEAKER_02 (40:23):
Yeah, so I I I and I think like in Catholicism, like
ESP is a is a more as a secularterm, and like people have
experiences with it.
Stephen King writes about it allthe time, and that's one of the
reasons people like it is likethey see some of those abilities
as possible or like somethingthey recognize in someone else,
(40:46):
and then like in Catholicism, wewe believe like God can do
miracles, or we do believe likesaints by locate sometimes, or
they have an ability tointerpret something, or
something happens throughprayer, but there's not like a
meshing, I feel like, or uh anidentification of like how
(41:07):
they're unmerited gracessometimes and they're not
related to somebody's holiness.
And so yeah, I just think that'sa really curious topic.
Do you have any commentary on onany of those capacities or or
thoughts on the episode at all?
SPEAKER_01 (41:30):
What's that?
Sorry, my mic wasmalfunctioning.
What'd you say?
SPEAKER_02 (41:33):
Oh probably SP.
Probably you did something toit.
Do you yeah, do you have anythoughts on the episode or or
about like any like phenom likesupernatural phenomena like that
or anything?
SPEAKER_01 (41:48):
Yeah, I'm not sure I read anything super deep into
this episode personally.
And I don't know, I honestly,I'm not sure what what the
lesson necessarily is.
Like you have information youshouldn't use it.
SPEAKER_02 (42:09):
Do you believe in like the gift of like a
premonition or other gifts oflike or just like occurrences of
of some sort of extrasensoryperception or or anything like
that?
SPEAKER_01 (42:22):
No, no, I'm not uh I like I I'm certainly open to
information to the contrary.
I just haven't necessarilypersonally in my life seen any
convincing evidence thatanything like that's real.
SPEAKER_02 (42:39):
What about the guy at the beginning of Ghostbusters
who's looking at the cards?
SPEAKER_00 (42:45):
Yeah, that is the one, yeah, that's the one piece
of the evidence that you wouldtrust.
That's the thing.
I do have I just trust thatpiece of evidence.
That's true.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (42:55):
But there it doesn't matter, actually, because he
shot something.
Yeah, so I like I was tryingwhen you when you talked about
like that theme for this uhparticular episode to like spin
(43:18):
an angle that I would have on itand a lesson, and I had trouble
with that, but that's whythere's two hosts.
SPEAKER_02 (43:28):
Exactly.
Yeah, so so yeah, that as far aslike if you just uh like have no
belief or experience of likelike coincidences happening with
people or people having likeideas pop in their head that are
how like yeah, premonitions orsomething like that, then I
guess that the episode's notthat interesting at all.
SPEAKER_01 (43:46):
Well, I I guess maybe I we'd have the same
conclusion that don't listen tovisions you have in your head.
Well, no, I'm the premonition.
SPEAKER_02 (43:55):
How how do you yeah, how do you test uh I think
that's the question is like ifif you do have a vision like
this, like how do you know it'sreal or not real?
And how do you test it and howdo you stay sane with it?
Right.
So I like I appreciate that it'slike starting that conversation,
even though we can't seem to goanywhere with it.
Right.
Don't believe anything that'snot right in front of you.
SPEAKER_01 (44:16):
So I are you acting like it's crazy that I don't
believe in ESP?
Like that's no, no, no.
SPEAKER_02 (44:22):
I'm I'm like exaggerating you to like a like
a British empiricist, but right,yeah.
No, it's not crazy.
You're right, it's definitelyfringe paranormal stuff, but I I
do believe in it so a lot.
So I think it's you believe init a lot.
I I would do I definitelybelieve, I definitely believe
people have like gifts of ESP orlike instances of serious
(44:45):
premonitions or seriouscapacities to communicate.
I mean, like I just like likequantum mechanics, like the way
the the spin on an electronic itis, but it does.
It's like it's fast and thespeed of light, they communicate
with each other in a way, and Ido believe like that type of
communication is happening too.
I do believe in like likebi-location of project PO.
(45:06):
I do believe you by located.
But I think like just becauseproject PO is holy isn't the
only like I think things likethat happen where people have an
experience of being somewhereelse or out of body or or
whatever, and that that's notexplainable.
SPEAKER_00 (45:21):
Okay, yeah, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (45:23):
I mean, that's fine.
I I but to me, sayingsomething's not explainable is
not the same as like developingsome theory.
So, like it you've gone beyondlike there are things that we
can't explain and and started toexplain them.
SPEAKER_02 (45:38):
Yeah, well, I I'm saying that's the step, that's
the step.
But I'm saying, like, you yeah,we can't explain why she got the
premonition or how to even likescientifically whittle down to
what's the premonition, why it'sa premonition.
SPEAKER_01 (45:53):
Yeah, uh, but if somebody came to me and they had
a prem like, is it possible thatit's something?
Yeah, it's more likely that it'snot.
Yeah.
Oh, I yeah.
SPEAKER_02 (46:04):
I would agree that my my position is more likely
that it's not.
I was just reading an article onthe Vatican updated its norms on
how bishops are supposed to testlike new apparitions or
eucharistic miracles in 2024because there was problems with
the old norms from the 70s oflike how people test like a
(46:27):
Marian site like Majigori orsomething like that, as to
whether the Vatican needs to sayimmediately it's supernatural or
not supernatural, because it'sso hard to test something like
that.
And like all we can do is likemake judgments on it's in
accordance with the faith ornot, or it seems to be damaging
to spirituality.
But the Vatican was veryconcerned that like you wouldn't
(46:47):
take a paranormal, extraordinarything like that and rank it
above the gospel.
Like we have our tools ofunderstanding knowledge that are
standard and like Jesus is thefullness of revelation.
But it is possible that God ispermitting these operations, and
if they are, like we can't justcompletely ignore it.
(47:10):
It shouldn't trump anythingelse, but you can't just
complete like it's a curiousthing that tells us something.
So I think like the rulesbecoming more stricter is what
you're saying.
Like, more than likely somethingdidn't happen.
You're imagining something, butthere's a possibility, and so
like we should have somecriteria or or some way to
(47:32):
evaluate right somethingparanormal's happening.
SPEAKER_01 (47:37):
The criteria of is if the plane blows up, then
maybe you're right.
Maybe she was right, or maybenot, maybe it just blew up.
SPEAKER_02 (47:44):
Maybe it was an incredible coincidence.
SPEAKER_01 (47:47):
Maybe there's only so many numbers.
That's not true.
There's not infinite numbers,although there's only so many
numbers that your plane seat canbe.
Good point.
So quick, because I know we'rerunning late, just we had two
other episodes that both of us,I think, had some stuff to say
(48:10):
about, and they are both indifferent ways, completely
different ways, about a topicthat comes up very often, not
only in Christianity and WadiCherith, but in the Twilight
Zone, which is death.
There was one episode called TheHitchhiker, and we'll just like
(48:30):
run, describe both episodes andthen talk about them both.
Do you want to do that?
Or talk about themindependently?
SPEAKER_02 (48:36):
Uh no, I we can talk about them both because we'll
keep these a little more minimalcompared to the other two.
SPEAKER_01 (48:41):
So the episode is called The Hitchhiker, and it is
about a young woman from NewYork who is driving across the
country, and it opens with herand a mechanic after she had
just had an accident.
As she's driving along thecountry, she is continuously
followed by a hitchhiker, anondescript man who's not
(49:03):
particularly threatening, but isalways there.
She sees him over and over againon the side of the road as she
drives across the country.
She sees him when he stops whenshe stops, and she begins to
panic, interacts with a couplepeople, a gas station owner, a
sailor who is traveling to SanDiego, and she's just totally
(49:29):
becoming unhinged.
She's unraveling because of thishitchhiker.
So at one point, she stops at apayphone and she says she needs
to hear a familiar voice to calmher down.
So she calls her mother.
A person she doesn't recognizeanswers the phone and informs
her that her mother is in thehospital after a nervous
(49:50):
breakdown because her daughterdied in a car accident on Route
11 in Pennsylvania eight daysago.
The woman then comes to therealization that she is in fact
dead.
She's a ghost.
She, after coming to thatrealization, finds some degree
of peace and calm, gets backinto the car into the car.
(50:14):
The hitchhiker is in the backseat and tells her, I believe
you're going my way.
The implication being thehitchhiker is death.
She has accepted her death, andnow she's moving on.
The other episode is calledWilloughby.
Do you want to summarize that ordo you want to?
SPEAKER_02 (50:36):
Oh, you can do it if you got it and ready to go.
SPEAKER_01 (50:39):
So Willoughby, Willoughby opens with a man at a
very stressful job with a bossthat's pushing him harder and
harder and harder.
He is on the train home fromwork and has a dream about a
stop that he had not seen beforecalled Willoughby.
In this dream, somehow we'vetraveled back in time to the
(51:01):
1800s, and Willoughby isdescribed as this incredibly
peaceful town.
The man we go on to see has apretty unsupportive wife who is
driven, ambitious, wants acertain quality of life, while
the man would like to slow downa little bit more, isn't quite
(51:25):
interested in always driving forthat next promotion.
He continues to have this dreamand eventually decides he's
going to get off the train atthe Willoughby stop.
He does walking into thisidyllic 19th century town that's
peaceful and they're singing andeverything's nice.
(51:46):
This the episode ends with therevelation that the man had
jumped off the train and diedand was picked up by a funeral
director known as Willoughby andSons.
So he's dead.
Not in some 19th century town.
SPEAKER_02 (52:06):
Turns out it's impossible to take a train to a
19th century town.
SPEAKER_01 (52:10):
Turns out that's not possible.
So obviously both about death,but with very different lessons,
right?
SPEAKER_02 (52:17):
And both about kind of psychotic breakdowns.
SPEAKER_01 (52:20):
Every Twilight Zone episode's about a psychotic
breakdown.
SPEAKER_02 (52:23):
And what your brain does.
I mean, that's what it is.
It's like your brain's put in apressure cooker and you start to
imagine or see or open it up toother possibilities.
SPEAKER_01 (52:32):
Yeah.
Right.
So a lot of them for the firstone, for the hitchhiker, a lot
of episodes of this show areabout coming to accept death and
be at peace with dying.
What there's no greater fear,Serling rightly recognizes, than
death.
And in the show characters oftencome to the slow realization
(52:57):
that they should not befrightened by death.
And obviously, there's a strongcorrelation to Christianity
there, bodily resurrection andthe defeat of death by Jesus
Christ being somewhat central tothe Christian message.
So I do like that the showcontinuously has uh creatively
(53:23):
and using imagination, a view ofdeath that is not stark and
terrifying, and that charactersare often able to move from this
fear of death to thisacceptance.
SPEAKER_02 (53:40):
Yeah, so I think it's not untouchable.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:42):
Right.
And I and I like that.
Now Willoughby, they'recertainly moving past the fear
of death, but in in a differentway.
unknown (53:50):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (53:51):
You want to talk about that a little bit?
Like not the only theme ofWilloughby.
Yeah.
I think you're going to touch onsome other themes.
SPEAKER_02 (53:57):
I I would I like for for me, Willoughby is
interesting because it justshows the the pressures of the
world and like how ourpriorities change and what what
it is like to have the pressure,especially of a mismatched
marriage where somebody is ismore relaxed and is attracted to
(54:18):
someone who's ambitious and howhow that doesn't work out.
But I don't where are yougetting at with will it be going
beyond death?
SPEAKER_01 (54:26):
No, it's about death, but in a different way I
meant.
SPEAKER_02 (54:29):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (54:30):
But back to the marriage thing, and I think
that's interesting.
There are so in our marriagepreparation in the Catholic
Church, there are a lot ofquestions and a lot of
opportunities to addressfinancial disagreements between
prospective bride and groom.
(54:52):
And I think for some people thatcan feel like shallow or
unimportant, and and part of itis just like avoiding arguments
and learning how to worktogether.
But I also think like like youpointed out, and I never thought
of it this way, part of it isabout making sure you're on the
same page of what kind of futureyou want.
It's important.
SPEAKER_02 (55:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Cause I mean, the wife, Iwouldn't say the wife is evil,
like just because she comes froma successful family and wants to
be a successful family, likeprobably the guy presented
himself as someone also wantingto be successful when they got
married.
So, like in the recap or in theshow, watching the show, if
you're uh sympathizing,empathizing with the man, you
she could seem cold, but yeah,it's uh I also feel like he's
(55:38):
being a bum because he justwants to live in a 19th century
town and have music and ridebicycles, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (55:45):
Right, yeah, and just not do anything, I guess,
right?
Yeah, what else hit you aboutthat episode?
Or or or hitchhiker, either one?
SPEAKER_02 (55:54):
Both of them I could I like it stresses you out
watching a lot of the episodesstress you out watching how the
protagonist is struggling, andlike just with the paranormal
activity, like stuff I've readabout that, like it it typically
manifests when you're stressedout and overwhelmed, and like
something needs to happen, or onthe other side, a psychotic
(56:15):
break happens in the same way,and I think like him exploring,
pushing you to the edge of yourhumanity to break through it,
either actually break down orbreak through is really
interesting, and like you'resaying, another human limit is
death, and he's he's pushing usup against that limit.
So the show is is just sobeautiful for that.
(56:36):
And and like you're saying, froma Catholic perspective, we're
expected, like the point of theBeatitudes and things like that
is we're supposed to breakthrough the limits that we
understand and and expect aresurrection after a death.
SPEAKER_01 (56:49):
Right.
And and and you're right, toyour point, every instance I've
ever heard of of a 19th centurytown appearing with a train stop
has been related to some kind ofpsychological distress.
So I you know you're right.
Thank you.
Yeah, but but and and I and Iwonder if a lot of the focus on
(57:14):
mental health, and I I don'twant to read into it
necessarily, but I'm going toanyway, has to do with Serling's
own struggle with PTSD.
You know, maybe not the samestresses and issues as some of
his characters, but he wascertainly familiar with some of
those battles.
SPEAKER_02 (57:36):
Yeah, and and does he think he's a better person
because he he went through them?
And I would say, like, yeah,probably he does.
Yeah, I don't know.
Because he's trying to drag usall through them, too.
SPEAKER_01 (57:51):
So I was yeah, I I it it's just uh I can't
recommend enough.
It's a fantastic show.
We had a at the high schoolwhere I was the chaplain, one of
the theology teachers, JoeSefchak, used to regularly in
his class show Twilight Zoneepisodes.
(58:11):
And at his at his funeral, thethe homilist, who was a priest
who had him in class, basicallysummarized an entire Twilight
Zone episode for the homily,which I thought was kind of a
neat tribute.
Yeah, that's cool.
And I and I think he recognizedthat this is an exceptional use
(58:35):
of parables to offer some kindof spiritual or psychological or
social or moral message, many ofwhich are very consistent with
what the gospel says and what webelieve as Catholics and as
Christians.
(58:55):
So it's a great show and it'sfun, you know, horror, sci-fi,
they're fun genres.
So it's I would recommend it.
SPEAKER_02 (59:05):
And it's spooky.
SPEAKER_00 (59:07):
Spooky.
SPEAKER_02 (59:08):
And ease of your imagination.
SPEAKER_00 (59:11):
Thanks, everybody.
We'll see you next time.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Ruthie's Table 4
For more than 30 years The River Cafe in London, has been the home-from-home of artists, architects, designers, actors, collectors, writers, activists, and politicians. Michael Caine, Glenn Close, JJ Abrams, Steve McQueen, Victoria and David Beckham, and Lily Allen, are just some of the people who love to call The River Cafe home. On River Cafe Table 4, Rogers sits down with her customers—who have become friends—to talk about food memories. Table 4 explores how food impacts every aspect of our lives. “Foods is politics, food is cultural, food is how you express love, food is about your heritage, it defines who you and who you want to be,” says Rogers. Each week, Rogers invites her guest to reminisce about family suppers and first dates, what they cook, how they eat when performing, the restaurants they choose, and what food they seek when they need comfort. And to punctuate each episode of Table 4, guests such as Ralph Fiennes, Emily Blunt, and Alfonso Cuarón, read their favourite recipe from one of the best-selling River Cafe cookbooks. Table 4 itself, is situated near The River Cafe’s open kitchen, close to the bright pink wood-fired oven and next to the glossy yellow pass, where Ruthie oversees the restaurant. You are invited to take a seat at this intimate table and join the conversation. For more information, recipes, and ingredients, go to https://shoptherivercafe.co.uk/ Web: https://rivercafe.co.uk/ Instagram: www.instagram.com/therivercafelondon/ Facebook: https://en-gb.facebook.com/therivercafelondon/ For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iheartradio app, apple podcasts, or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. Learn more about your ad-choices at https://www.iheartpodcastnetwork.com
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.