October 25, 2023 • 29 mins
Have you ever wondered about the deeper psychological impacts of adoption? Join us as we plunge into the emotionally charged story of Andy Wallis, a man adopted in 1973 who has grappled with undiscovered impacts of adoption trauma for over a decade. Andy's unique and poignant tale navigates through his experiences with attachment and detachment in relationships, and how his current partner has been instrumental in his healing journey.
Andy doesn't shy away from sharing his trials and tribulations. He reveals his run of five kilometers a day for a local hospice, inspired by naysayers who said he couldn't. This act of defiance led him to further explore his mental health, culminating in his enrollment in a college course to better understand himself. The episode takes an intimate turn as Andy recounts his quest to obtain his adoption file and original birth certificate, his thoughts on biological family, and the insecurities he copes with regarding his two unknown siblings and absent father. Join us to gain a deeper understanding of adoption's complexities, mental health struggles, and the resilience of the human spirit through Andy's story.
IG: https://www.instagram.com/whos_wally_blog/https://www.instagram.com/whos_wally_blog/
Website: https://www.whoswally.co.uk/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/andy.wallis.3572/
Book: https://www.barnesandnoble.com/w/whos-wally-andy-wallis/1144152386
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yes, I've got to be honest about it.
The one thing that was reallyobvious to me is the population
of certainly the Facebook groupsand the communities that I've
been involved with, which hasmostly been digital, have been
female, or at least not male.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Welcome to today's episode of Wandering Tree
Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am, andwith me today I have Andy
Wallace, and he is from acrossthe pond, and I'm going to let
him kind of introduce himself alittle bit, give a background
and tell us about his adoptionstory.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hi Lisa, thank you very much.
I am Andy Wallace.
I'm from Grantham in the UK.
I'm 50 years old this year,started to look into the effects
of adoption trauma in my lifeand how it's affected me,
certainly in the last 10 years.
I was adopted in 1973.
It was a closed adoption then.
It wasn't until Well, I mean,my adoption was very good.
(01:22):
Compared to some people'sstories, mine was pretty idyllic
really.
My parents were great peopleand me and my sister were both
loved.
So when you read a lot ofpeople's stories, certainly on
Facebook groups and things likethat, they're really hard and
mine certainly wasn't.
We all come to the same pointat the same time really.
(01:43):
You get to sort of midlife andthen you realise that there are
things that you may have beenaffected with that could have
come from your adoption and themore I looked into it, the more
I realised that was the case.
And the more I read and the moreI listened to, the more other
stories could well have just hadmy name written on them.
(02:04):
It was incredible and I'vestruggled with my mental health
over the years, certainly overthe last 10 years.
It's only really this year thatI've really started to come out
of the fog, if you like, and Ican see where the issues are.
So, yeah, I've been really,I've come to it really late and
(02:24):
I feel like I've just had all ofit just dumped on me straight
out of a bucket that's straightover onto my head and I'm sort
of trying to make sense of itand it seems to be happening
really quickly.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, let's pause there for just a second and take
a step back.
I appreciate that you arewilling to share out.
You're not looking backwards tohow you were raised or the
parents that you had, and Ithink I heard a little bit of
general appreciation, which Iknow some people will translate
that into a false sense ofgratitude, but there are
(02:58):
instances of the journey throughadoption.
I think that people aregenerally okay with how they
were raised and how they'veturned out.
I think this is where you'regoing.
It does not mean that therestill are not effects of the
trauma and how you handle lifeand then how you've reflected.
So I know that you have apassion for health, so can you
(03:22):
share with our listeners alittle bit about some of your
just general personal strugglesthat you're starting to identify
and some key areas that youknow are part of a healing
journey for you?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, the main issue for me really has always been
with attachments in relationshipand it's got an awful lot of
upset for me and for thepartners in my life, which has
been quite a few.
It's caused depression in meand anxiety in me and that was
the key driving force for me.
I wanted to find out howadoption process, how my
(03:58):
adoption, may have affected myability to connect with others
and certainly in a romanticrelationship kind of way.
I've lost kind of friends overthe years just through my
ability to back away and shrinkback.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Do you find yourself more attaching or detaching?
I have experiencedconversations and then my own
life, both of those overattachment and then immediate
detachment to build the wall up.
Where do you think you land onthat?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I have both of those things in equal measure, and it
often shows itself in onerelationship.
So I'll go into therelationship a hundred miles an
hour, full on, lookingdesperately, looking for that
attachment and doing everythingpossible to make sure that
attachment is solid and it'sthere, and then invariably,
(04:54):
within 18 months, two years anamount of time I flip over and
go the opposite way, thank you,and that's the thing.
That's the thing for me that Ireally want to understand more
about, because that's the thingthat's affected most of my adult
(05:15):
life and I need to know whythat happens and how it's
happened.
And I've seen traces of it inthe adoption trauma things that
I've read and looked at and Ican see it's definitely related.
But now I want to see moreabout why it's related to me and
how I dealt with it, and thatreally is the key thing for me.
(05:36):
Icebot brings on all the otherlittle tiny things that come
with it.
I say tiny, I mean depressionand anxiety are not exactly tiny
, but for me they're secondaryto the main.
Well, I believe is the maincause, and it's not until my
recent relationship, where I'vebeen with somebody since 2021,
(05:56):
and our relationship isdifferent because she's not run
away from me because I've beenodd and I've done a flip-flop
thing.
She's gone the opposite.
She's gone round the back ofthe theatre and started looking
in the back and trying to findout why, and now you know, we're
coming back together, we'rebuilding things back up, and
(06:18):
she's involved in all the thingsthat I'm doing to combat this
and learn about it.
She's just as fast as I am, andfor me that has been incredible
, and so it's really given methe strength to go right.
I've got to a point where I feelsolid enough to be able to now
investigate this, find thesolution for the sake of those
(06:40):
really.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, let's talk a little bit about your
investigative actions.
What kind of work have you beendoing that is getting you to
these types of conversations,the things you're doing on
social media?
I'd like us to talk a littlebit about that as well.
And you know how you want toget past the next, whatever it
is.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yes, I'm still in the process of finding a suitable
counsellor.
I've had counselling in thepast.
In fact, I've had onecounsellor that I once went to
about ten years ago, maybe a bitless, because I was suffering
from depression and it was alllinked to a particular
(07:19):
relationship at the time and Iwalked in and sat down and she
asked me what had brought methere, and the first things I
said to her was well, firstthings, I'm adopted, but I'm not
going to talk about thatbecause I don't believe it's
related and looking back now Ithought that was crazy.
So, yes, I'm looking foranother counsellor to start that
(07:42):
process, someone that dealswith adoption issues, and I
believe I've found one and thatwill start next week.
But the thing that's reallystarted to bring me into all
this is my partner suggestedthat I should start writing it
down.
Writing is a healthy thing to do.
It's really good stuff.
It helps you look in wooden andinvestigate yourself on the
(08:03):
page, and I'd always written alittle bit here and there.
I've got a few unfinished bookslike I'm about.
I thought, well, I don't reallyhave the need to write, but
I'll try it.
So I started to write justabout contemporary things,
recent things that have happenedthat I think might have been
related, and before I knew it,after about three weeks I've got
(08:26):
sort of like seven or eightdown words, and that for me was
way beyond what I'd written inthe past about anything.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, I started to think, well, I need.
I started to get to the pointwhere I was going to write a
book.
I thought, well, I'll write abook because people do it, and
why not?
And so I started at chapter oneand started writing and I got
some way in and then I startedto feel the pressure in able to
complete the book.
I don't even know if I'm goingto be able to finish this.
(08:53):
It's too much pressure.
So then I decided I was going toblog and I thought I could sort
of narrow it down into smallerchunks, into articles, and put
that in the blog.
Even if it goes nowhere, itdoesn't matter, it's on, it's on
the it's on there.
It's in an easier format to beable to get my thoughts down.
But the more I did that, themore I was thinking this should
(09:16):
really be seen by the people,not for my own benefit, but just
on the off chance it might justget somebody else's mind
working and thinking.
So then I started to share theblog online on adoption groups,
and that was the scariest thingI've done for a while, because
I'm not a great lover of socialmedia.
I get really anxious aboutletting go of the gorilla grip
(09:37):
that I've got on my own personalspace and for days after that
first post went out, I wasshaking.
I'm physically shaking.
For days I just couldn't getrid of the anxiousness that was
in and I just kept going and Ijust put a bit of it and I kept
going and I've written more andmore and more and more and more
and more people have come backwith stories of how it resonates
(10:00):
with them and encouragement tokeep going.
It's been absolutely incredibleand for someone that just a few
months ago thought they werethinking things that nobody else
has ever thought about theywere on their own in their
thoughts and their worries andtheir life To find this huge
community of people that feelexactly the same as me.
(10:23):
It's just blown my little tinymind really.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So, andy, we've touched on a little bit of you
know some really key traumatopics and how they have
impacted you personally and yourquick immersion and a short
amount of time and having anoverwhelming feeling.
Then also, at the same time,the embracement of the community
(10:47):
.
One of the aspects that drew meto you and a few other adaptees
is what I'm seeing and I'd likeyou to talk about it a little
bit A movement in the communitywhere more gentlemen are
starting to talk publicly,sharing out their story and
(11:08):
creating kind of a circle oftrust and journey, experience
and positivity.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you have felt.
Try not to get too genderdivided, but there is a little
bit of a difference in ourcommunity.
I'd really like to allow ourlisteners to experience that
(11:32):
from that angle, because it's aquick, moving group right now
and I'm excited about it formale adoptees.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yes, I've got to be honest.
That is the one thing that Ireally was.
Really obvious to me is that Iwould have said 90% of the
population of the Facebookgroups and the communities that
I've been involved in, which hasmostly been digital, have been
(12:01):
female, or at least not male,and out of that 10% of males
that are in, only maybe I don'tknow maybe 50% of those would
choose to like, share, comment.
And it's really obvious whenyou, when I put a post out, when
I say something, when I, when I, when I publish something,
there is hardly any male voicescoming back and hardly any male
(12:25):
voices sharing new stuff orstuff about themselves or
aspects of their own adoption.
I've always been very open,which is a strange way really,
because because inside I'm quitea closed off wall building kind
of person, but on the outsideI'm, I'll share with anybody,
(12:46):
but if it becomes down to me notreally understanding where my
issues are, then I end upclosing off.
But on the whole I'm reallyopen and I find that not many
men are.
I actually started a maleadoption group because I didn't
find many on Facebook, because Ithought maybe it's the
(13:11):
inclusion of women in the groupsthat is causing a lot of the
men not to want to share,because if a lot of the issues
were based on relationships,then they may feel that they
might offend the opposite sexwomen, females by their comments
.
So I thought, well, let'sremove one, remove the females
(13:35):
from that population and let'ssee.
Let's see what happens.
I'm not ready, but it's beengoing for about a week now, a
week or two.
They are starting to start intouse the space and I'm trying
not to be too adminny and I'mtrying to leave the people to
share as well as I want really.
So I hope it grows and I hopeit does become something that
(13:56):
people can.
People could use more and sharemore, because I think it's
important.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I do too.
I interviewed a few gentlemenand I do want to just make kind
of more of a generalized comment.
I do think it might be a littlemore difficult.
I don't know why.
I can't even pretend to knowwhy.
Maybe there's other societalstigmas that we just have not
tapped into.
I would use a similar or aparallel area.
(14:23):
I put it from the perspectiveof tapping into birth mother
shame and how hard it is forbirth mothers to speak about
their shame and so not being onthe side, you know, the other
side of the gender coin.
I don't know what the stigma ofquid or could not be Right.
I can't find the relationshipto it.
I definitely notice it and soI'm really encouraged for our
(14:47):
community where there areopportunities.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe way you've approached life
in the past and I see a theme ofit here a lot of rigor, all in
go for it.
Do you have examples of howyou've done that in the past and
how you're transferring thatinto this environment?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
to answer your success points I've got one
particular one actually that I'mjust writing about for the book
, which is not hugely related toadoption, but I can see where
there are elements of me fromthe adoption in it, and that is
that a few years ago I was aprofessional photographer and I
was busy.
I was a busy fall really.
(15:26):
I was still working full timeand I had a photography business
as well and I also wrote anddelivered training courses for
beginners and I had a cameraclub which I was running.
I also had built a photo boothfor weddings and events and
things like that.
You can imagine how busy I wasand I'd got children at home.
(15:46):
I was in a relationship at thattime.
I never stopped.
Well, one of the people that Idid some work for was a local
hospice to me and I donated timeto cover their events for them,
and I did that for a couple ofyears and I was also a runner.
One day I sort of started tothink that the photography
wasn't really.
I didn't feel like I was doingenough.
I felt the people in the buttonget pressed and then maybe it
(16:13):
was a bit of a self esteem orsomething.
I didn't feel like I was doingenough.
I had a couple of days to thinkabout it and then I sent an
email to one of the people therethat said I want to run five
kilometers a day for you for ayear, and they loved the idea,
and so I did it.
But one of the things that mademe do it more than anything was
somebody I used to work with.
(16:33):
When they found out I was doing, it, told me that I was an
idiot and I wouldn't be able tolast more than three weeks.
So I thought, well, now I'mgoing to do it because you say I
can't, and so the part of itwas about as well, really.
But yeah, I spent 12 monthsrunning at least five kilometers
a day, sometimes twice a day,and sometimes the software I
(16:56):
used to track the route didn'trecord.
So I'd just get home, realizeyou hadn't recorded, turn around
and go straight back out againand do 10K that day.
I ran them half marathon in thatperiod of time as well, and I
went all out.
I mean, I was on the news, Iwas local radio, I was in the
local newspapers, I was doingvideos and talks, I ran with the
(17:20):
Football Association.
It was just went crazy for it.
It was everywhere and we raisedabout £6,000 in the end.
So it was brilliant to do.
But now I'm writing about itbecause it's not really written
about and I thought about it theother day and I thought surely
there's something in that thatneeds to go in the book because
(17:42):
it's just on the block.
It was just too full on for itnot to be important.
So that is a real, properpeople please.
The moment scale of the heightsof people, pleaded mountain
there.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I was also going to add into it, maybe a
theme of hypervigilance.
Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I think that I'm hearing from you as well in our
conversation.
You know just kind of how it isto have your early come out of
the fog moments and how yourmind is trying to rationale
pretty much your entire life.
I've been there.
I can relate to that.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Doing the full reflection and saying things to
yourself that are associatedwith.
Am I depressed?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Do I have anxiety?
So you've touched on those two.
Do I people please?
Oh my goodness, do I peopleplease?
I've heard that for you as well.
And hypervigilance we just kindof added that in there, and so
it's a lot to rationale for that.
And I appreciate that you wantto get to the root, which is
what that's your why, the why.
What's driving you is gettingto the root of all of those
(18:54):
things and sharing those outthrough the, through your blog,
through your social media groupand then through your book.
Where do you see yourself goingnext?
I think there's someeducational aspect you have in
mind as well.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I have no idea.
I am literally unboggling asI'm going and if you read the
blog posts from start to fromwhen I first started, which is
not that long ago, two weeks agoto now, you will see it's
obvious.
You know my writing style islighter and I'm finding more
humor in things and it's not asdark as it was right at the
(19:31):
start.
I literally am sometimeslearning as I type.
I go from not knowing at thestart of a blog post to getting
60% there by the time I finish.
And I am fascinated by my mentalhealth and mental health
generally, because although I'mnot in the super extreme end of
(19:53):
any condition, I have beenpretty bad.
I mean, this year particularlywas I spent probably three
months in the darkest, lowestpoint.
So it fascinates me that I getto that point and get out of
that point.
And so I've started to taken ona college course to a college
in London which is done remotelyand that is just to learn
(20:14):
awareness of mental healthreally, and it's only a few
weeks course and it covers everyaspect that you can imagine,
but only in a relatively sort ofsmall way.
But it's teaching me about howto deal with certain aspects,
how clinically it's dealt withhow it affects people, how it
affects other members of thefamily or carers, and I think if
(20:36):
I'm going to write about thingsthat are leading into mental
health, I should be able tounderstand more of it.
So I just don't have a cluewhere it's going.
I'm just going from day to dayand seeing where it leads me.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Does that feel different to you than maybe in
the past as well?
Is this a new adventure for youto not be so in the grip of
control of what's going tohappen?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm still fully in
control.
I'm still absolutely grippedtight.
That's not gone away yet.
I don't know.
That is the biggest problem.
I think I don't know how I'mgoing to let go of some of this
stuff, because I can talk aboutit all day and I do feel like
I'd let go of some of it, butsometimes I haven't.
(21:24):
Sometimes that box is stillshut and this is why I'm not
relying on my own mind to get tothe bottom of it, like I've
said.
In one of the blog posts, Isaid that I feel like I know
what my issues are, but they'rebehind the plate of glass and I
can't get to them.
But I'll see them and I canrecognize them in the street.
(21:46):
I need a big hammer to smashthrough that kind of glass so I
can get my hands on themproperly, and I don't feel like
I'm equipped to do that on myown.
But knowing what they are andbeing able to talk about them is
the first step really.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, I would venture , andy, a lot of the listeners
can relate to that and exactlywhere you are as well, I know it
runs through me.
There are many days where Iwonder what's going to be next.
I know this sounds maybe alittle dark in a weird way.
Am I going to be able tosurvive the next hit?
(22:22):
Can I take it Like what'scoming next?
Just grappling with theanticipation and not being in
control and the anxiety thatcomes with that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, that's a half a vision, isn't it, when you're
not aware of what's coming up,but you're so looking forward,
to looking as far ahead as youcan, to see if you can spot that
error, that fault, that nextpitfall.
I suppose, with what I'm doingnow, the work I'm doing now, is
that, yes, you're right, I'm notactually looking at the
(22:56):
pitfalls, I'm just blindly goingforwards and just accepting
what happens.
Really.
Yes, you're probably right.
That is quite a new thing forme.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I do want to touch on another aspect of your story,
how we started the conversationthat you've had basically a
fairly ideal again we'll use theword ideal childhood to
adulthood.
Where do you stand with yourbiological family?
When we talked about this inpreparation for this discussion,
I loved what you said.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, that's an interesting one, because that is
something that is prominent inadoption community, isn't it?
When what I wanted to do wasfind out more information about
where I came from, I thinkthat's in everyone everyone that
doesn't have that information,at least, when I went through
the process of being able to gethold of my adoption file and my
(23:45):
original birth certificate, andin that information was
obviously details about my birthparents, I didn't intend to
look for them.
I went into this back in 1998.
Wasn't interested.
I look back now and think thatpart of it is a big part of it
is not wanting to upset people.
(24:06):
I didn't want to upset anybodyin my adoptive family by making
any effort to find my birthparents.
Really, I mean my mom, myadoptive mom.
She was a little upset.
She was worried that I wasgoing to find my other parents
and then leave them behind.
Of course, that was never goingto happen.
I've always maintained that Ionly have one set of parents and
(24:28):
they're the ones that put allthe effort in to bring to the
point there's a lot of lovebetween us and that's how it
should be.
I don't have any interest indoing so.
I did actually speak to my birthmother.
There is some writing aboutthis on the blog.
I did speak to my birth motheron the telephone once and I was
pretty much told to go away andthen they phoned back after
about 15 minutes and then we hada 20 minute conversation, which
(24:52):
really didn't fill me up at all.
It wasn't a good conversationand I came away feeling almost
rejected again, and that stayedwith me.
Later on, about 10, 12 yearslater, one of my other sisters
found me and I've had a greatrelationship with her and it's
(25:13):
been really nice.
It's been brilliant to find her.
We get on really well.
I don't know how much we lookalike or whatever, but it's been
nice.
What I did find out was that heradoptive mom had the
opportunity to adopt me as welland then chose not to because of
financial reasons.
We had two opportunities to betogether as kids and they all
(25:36):
lived on both.
Really Even now I found onesister, and now I've got another
, and now I've got brothers thatI don't know.
I know there's two moresiblings out there, but I don't
know anything about them.
I don't know where my dad is.
He's not on my birthcertificate At this point in
time.
I genuinely don't feel anykinship with that side of my
(25:58):
life at all.
My original name was David andI maintain that I don't feel as
much as if David died and I'mjust carrying the grief of that
debt and I don't think and Imight be wrong, but I don't
think that I would benefit fromknowing more at this point,
because I feel that the issues Ilive with are, yes, related to
(26:20):
my adoption, absolutely, butthere are no reasons why I was
adopted.
I don't think they're gonnahelp me.
But again, I can say I might bewrong, time will tell.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, I think that's a great perspective.
Well, as we start wrapping upour conversation, we have
touched on again some prettysignificant things.
What is an item that you wouldwant the listeners to leave with
knowing about you, and whereare you, social media-wise, that
if there are other gentlemenlisteners that want to get into
(26:53):
a more finite safe space, wheredo they go?
Look?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Okay, well, the driving force behind everything
that I've done so far has beento find out about me, and then
there was the element of wantingto share so that other people
may find something in that thatresonates with them, and that is
what you know.
I really hope that that doeshelp other people.
The blog is called who's Wallybecause my name was Wally.
(27:19):
I just thought it really fits,because I don't know who I am.
I'm sure there is parts of itthat I don't understand.
So the blog is called who'sWally and the book also be
called who's Wally.
The male adoption group onFacebook is called Mind
Maintenance and the who's Wallywebsite is who's Wally but
(27:40):
Credit UK.
So it's pretty straightforward,and if anybody fancies looking
on there, that'll be fantastic.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Well, let's close with this.
If there was one thing you hadwished I had asked during this
conversation, what would it beand what would be your answer?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, I'm sure there'll be a hundred questions
that I'd wish you'd asked me inabout an hour and a half, but as
it turns out now, I can't thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I love that.
I actually love that, becausethat is is that not an adoptee
over thinker's mind right there?
That says nothing.
Comes to my mind.
However, what we're donetalking, and I decompress from
this conversation, I'm probablygonna think of about a million
things.
Just to be clear, I'm gonnahave the same thing, Andy.
(28:24):
I'm gonna be decompressing fromour conversation and I'm gonna
be like, oh darn, I really wishI would have said this to him or
asked about this.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I think I covered everything that you know driven
me to do what I'm doing now, andI genuinely can't think of
anything now.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Well, as we close out , then, I would love to say
thank you for joining us.
You're just jumping right inand diving, and cold water and
all of the analogies we couldthink of, and I appreciate it
and you are welcome back hereanytime.
I look forward to continuingthe dialogue.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yes, thank you very much.
We enjoyed it.
It's been good.
Thanks very much for giving usa chance to come on and bow at
my 50-year-old nonsense.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us at wanderingtreeecom.
Although I will repay you.
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2 (00:10):
Yes, I've got to be honest about it.
The one thing that was reallyobvious to me is the population
of certainly the Facebook groupsand the communities that I've
been involved with, which hasmostly been digital, have been
female, or at least not male.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Welcome to today's episode of Wandering Tree
Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am, andwith me today I have Andy
Wallace, and he is from acrossthe pond, and I'm going to let
him kind of introduce himself alittle bit, give a background
and tell us about his adoptionstory.
Speaker 2 (00:57):
Hi Lisa, thank you very much.
I am Andy Wallace.
I'm from Grantham in the UK.
I'm 50 years old this year,started to look into the effects
of adoption trauma in my lifeand how it's affected me,
certainly in the last 10 years.
I was adopted in 1973.
It was a closed adoption then.
It wasn't until Well, I mean,my adoption was very good.
(01:22):
Compared to some people'sstories, mine was pretty idyllic
really.
My parents were great peopleand me and my sister were both
loved.
So when you read a lot ofpeople's stories, certainly on
Facebook groups and things likethat, they're really hard and
mine certainly wasn't.
We all come to the same pointat the same time really.
(01:43):
You get to sort of midlife andthen you realise that there are
things that you may have beenaffected with that could have
come from your adoption and themore I looked into it, the more
I realised that was the case.
And the more I read and the moreI listened to, the more other
stories could well have just hadmy name written on them.
(02:04):
It was incredible and I'vestruggled with my mental health
over the years, certainly overthe last 10 years.
It's only really this year thatI've really started to come out
of the fog, if you like, and Ican see where the issues are.
So, yeah, I've been really,I've come to it really late and
(02:24):
I feel like I've just had all ofit just dumped on me straight
out of a bucket that's straightover onto my head and I'm sort
of trying to make sense of itand it seems to be happening
really quickly.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Yeah, let's pause there for just a second and take
a step back.
I appreciate that you arewilling to share out.
You're not looking backwards tohow you were raised or the
parents that you had, and Ithink I heard a little bit of
general appreciation, which Iknow some people will translate
that into a false sense ofgratitude, but there are
(02:58):
instances of the journey throughadoption.
I think that people aregenerally okay with how they
were raised and how they'veturned out.
I think this is where you'regoing.
It does not mean that therestill are not effects of the
trauma and how you handle lifeand then how you've reflected.
So I know that you have apassion for health, so can you
(03:22):
share with our listeners alittle bit about some of your
just general personal strugglesthat you're starting to identify
and some key areas that youknow are part of a healing
journey for you?
Speaker 2 (03:35):
Yeah, the main issue for me really has always been
with attachments in relationshipand it's got an awful lot of
upset for me and for thepartners in my life, which has
been quite a few.
It's caused depression in meand anxiety in me and that was
the key driving force for me.
I wanted to find out howadoption process, how my
(03:58):
adoption, may have affected myability to connect with others
and certainly in a romanticrelationship kind of way.
I've lost kind of friends overthe years just through my
ability to back away and shrinkback.
Speaker 1 (04:14):
Do you find yourself more attaching or detaching?
I have experiencedconversations and then my own
life, both of those overattachment and then immediate
detachment to build the wall up.
Where do you think you land onthat?
Speaker 2 (04:31):
I have both of those things in equal measure, and it
often shows itself in onerelationship.
So I'll go into therelationship a hundred miles an
hour, full on, lookingdesperately, looking for that
attachment and doing everythingpossible to make sure that
attachment is solid and it'sthere, and then invariably,
(04:54):
within 18 months, two years anamount of time I flip over and
go the opposite way, thank you,and that's the thing.
That's the thing for me that Ireally want to understand more
about, because that's the thingthat's affected most of my adult
(05:15):
life and I need to know whythat happens and how it's
happened.
And I've seen traces of it inthe adoption trauma things that
I've read and looked at and Ican see it's definitely related.
But now I want to see moreabout why it's related to me and
how I dealt with it, and thatreally is the key thing for me.
(05:36):
Icebot brings on all the otherlittle tiny things that come
with it.
I say tiny, I mean depressionand anxiety are not exactly tiny
, but for me they're secondaryto the main.
Well, I believe is the maincause, and it's not until my
recent relationship, where I'vebeen with somebody since 2021,
(05:56):
and our relationship isdifferent because she's not run
away from me because I've beenodd and I've done a flip-flop
thing.
She's gone the opposite.
She's gone round the back ofthe theatre and started looking
in the back and trying to findout why, and now you know, we're
coming back together, we'rebuilding things back up, and
(06:18):
she's involved in all the thingsthat I'm doing to combat this
and learn about it.
She's just as fast as I am, andfor me that has been incredible
, and so it's really given methe strength to go right.
I've got to a point where I feelsolid enough to be able to now
investigate this, find thesolution for the sake of those
(06:40):
really.
Speaker 1 (06:40):
Well, let's talk a little bit about your
investigative actions.
What kind of work have you beendoing that is getting you to
these types of conversations,the things you're doing on
social media?
I'd like us to talk a littlebit about that as well.
And you know how you want toget past the next, whatever it
is.
Speaker 2 (06:59):
Yes, I'm still in the process of finding a suitable
counsellor.
I've had counselling in thepast.
In fact, I've had onecounsellor that I once went to
about ten years ago, maybe a bitless, because I was suffering
from depression and it was alllinked to a particular
(07:19):
relationship at the time and Iwalked in and sat down and she
asked me what had brought methere, and the first things I
said to her was well, firstthings, I'm adopted, but I'm not
going to talk about thatbecause I don't believe it's
related and looking back now Ithought that was crazy.
So, yes, I'm looking foranother counsellor to start that
(07:42):
process, someone that dealswith adoption issues, and I
believe I've found one and thatwill start next week.
But the thing that's reallystarted to bring me into all
this is my partner suggestedthat I should start writing it
down.
Writing is a healthy thing to do.
It's really good stuff.
It helps you look in wooden andinvestigate yourself on the
(08:03):
page, and I'd always written alittle bit here and there.
I've got a few unfinished bookslike I'm about.
I thought, well, I don't reallyhave the need to write, but
I'll try it.
So I started to write justabout contemporary things,
recent things that have happenedthat I think might have been
related, and before I knew it,after about three weeks I've got
(08:26):
sort of like seven or eightdown words, and that for me was
way beyond what I'd written inthe past about anything.
Speaker 1 (08:31):
I think that's fantastic.
Speaker 2 (08:33):
Yeah, I started to think, well, I need.
I started to get to the pointwhere I was going to write a
book.
I thought, well, I'll write abook because people do it, and
why not?
And so I started at chapter oneand started writing and I got
some way in and then I startedto feel the pressure in able to
complete the book.
I don't even know if I'm goingto be able to finish this.
(08:53):
It's too much pressure.
So then I decided I was going toblog and I thought I could sort
of narrow it down into smallerchunks, into articles, and put
that in the blog.
Even if it goes nowhere, itdoesn't matter, it's on, it's on
the it's on there.
It's in an easier format to beable to get my thoughts down.
But the more I did that, themore I was thinking this should
(09:16):
really be seen by the people,not for my own benefit, but just
on the off chance it might justget somebody else's mind
working and thinking.
So then I started to share theblog online on adoption groups,
and that was the scariest thingI've done for a while, because
I'm not a great lover of socialmedia.
I get really anxious aboutletting go of the gorilla grip
(09:37):
that I've got on my own personalspace and for days after that
first post went out, I wasshaking.
I'm physically shaking.
For days I just couldn't getrid of the anxiousness that was
in and I just kept going and Ijust put a bit of it and I kept
going and I've written more andmore and more and more and more
and more people have come backwith stories of how it resonates
(10:00):
with them and encouragement tokeep going.
It's been absolutely incredibleand for someone that just a few
months ago thought they werethinking things that nobody else
has ever thought about theywere on their own in their
thoughts and their worries andtheir life To find this huge
community of people that feelexactly the same as me.
(10:23):
It's just blown my little tinymind really.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
So, andy, we've touched on a little bit of you
know some really key traumatopics and how they have
impacted you personally and yourquick immersion and a short
amount of time and having anoverwhelming feeling.
Then also, at the same time,the embracement of the community
(10:47):
.
One of the aspects that drew meto you and a few other adaptees
is what I'm seeing and I'd likeyou to talk about it a little
bit A movement in the communitywhere more gentlemen are
starting to talk publicly,sharing out their story and
(11:08):
creating kind of a circle oftrust and journey, experience
and positivity.
So tell me a little bit abouthow you have felt.
Try not to get too genderdivided, but there is a little
bit of a difference in ourcommunity.
I'd really like to allow ourlisteners to experience that
(11:32):
from that angle, because it's aquick, moving group right now
and I'm excited about it formale adoptees.
Speaker 2 (11:40):
Yes, I've got to be honest.
That is the one thing that Ireally was.
Really obvious to me is that Iwould have said 90% of the
population of the Facebookgroups and the communities that
I've been involved in, which hasmostly been digital, have been
(12:01):
female, or at least not male,and out of that 10% of males
that are in, only maybe I don'tknow maybe 50% of those would
choose to like, share, comment.
And it's really obvious whenyou, when I put a post out, when
I say something, when I, when I, when I publish something,
there is hardly any male voicescoming back and hardly any male
(12:25):
voices sharing new stuff orstuff about themselves or
aspects of their own adoption.
I've always been very open,which is a strange way really,
because because inside I'm quitea closed off wall building kind
of person, but on the outsideI'm, I'll share with anybody,
(12:46):
but if it becomes down to me notreally understanding where my
issues are, then I end upclosing off.
But on the whole I'm reallyopen and I find that not many
men are.
I actually started a maleadoption group because I didn't
find many on Facebook, because Ithought maybe it's the
(13:11):
inclusion of women in the groupsthat is causing a lot of the
men not to want to share,because if a lot of the issues
were based on relationships,then they may feel that they
might offend the opposite sexwomen, females by their comments
.
So I thought, well, let'sremove one, remove the females
(13:35):
from that population and let'ssee.
Let's see what happens.
I'm not ready, but it's beengoing for about a week now, a
week or two.
They are starting to start intouse the space and I'm trying
not to be too adminny and I'mtrying to leave the people to
share as well as I want really.
So I hope it grows and I hopeit does become something that
(13:56):
people can.
People could use more and sharemore, because I think it's
important.
Speaker 1 (14:01):
Yeah, I do too.
I interviewed a few gentlemenand I do want to just make kind
of more of a generalized comment.
I do think it might be a littlemore difficult.
I don't know why.
I can't even pretend to knowwhy.
Maybe there's other societalstigmas that we just have not
tapped into.
I would use a similar or aparallel area.
(14:23):
I put it from the perspectiveof tapping into birth mother
shame and how hard it is forbirth mothers to speak about
their shame and so not being onthe side, you know, the other
side of the gender coin.
I don't know what the stigma ofquid or could not be Right.
I can't find the relationshipto it.
I definitely notice it and soI'm really encouraged for our
(14:47):
community where there areopportunities.
We've talked a little bit aboutthe way you've approached life
in the past and I see a theme ofit here a lot of rigor, all in
go for it.
Do you have examples of howyou've done that in the past and
how you're transferring thatinto this environment?
Speaker 2 (15:05):
to answer your success points I've got one
particular one actually that I'mjust writing about for the book
, which is not hugely related toadoption, but I can see where
there are elements of me fromthe adoption in it, and that is
that a few years ago I was aprofessional photographer and I
was busy.
I was a busy fall really.
(15:26):
I was still working full timeand I had a photography business
as well and I also wrote anddelivered training courses for
beginners and I had a cameraclub which I was running.
I also had built a photo boothfor weddings and events and
things like that.
You can imagine how busy I wasand I'd got children at home.
(15:46):
I was in a relationship at thattime.
I never stopped.
Well, one of the people that Idid some work for was a local
hospice to me and I donated timeto cover their events for them,
and I did that for a couple ofyears and I was also a runner.
One day I sort of started tothink that the photography
wasn't really.
I didn't feel like I was doingenough.
I felt the people in the buttonget pressed and then maybe it
(16:13):
was a bit of a self esteem orsomething.
I didn't feel like I was doingenough.
I had a couple of days to thinkabout it and then I sent an
email to one of the people therethat said I want to run five
kilometers a day for you for ayear, and they loved the idea,
and so I did it.
But one of the things that mademe do it more than anything was
somebody I used to work with.
(16:33):
When they found out I was doing, it, told me that I was an
idiot and I wouldn't be able tolast more than three weeks.
So I thought, well, now I'mgoing to do it because you say I
can't, and so the part of itwas about as well, really.
But yeah, I spent 12 monthsrunning at least five kilometers
a day, sometimes twice a day,and sometimes the software I
(16:56):
used to track the route didn'trecord.
So I'd just get home, realizeyou hadn't recorded, turn around
and go straight back out againand do 10K that day.
I ran them half marathon in thatperiod of time as well, and I
went all out.
I mean, I was on the news, Iwas local radio, I was in the
local newspapers, I was doingvideos and talks, I ran with the
(17:20):
Football Association.
It was just went crazy for it.
It was everywhere and we raisedabout £6,000 in the end.
So it was brilliant to do.
But now I'm writing about itbecause it's not really written
about and I thought about it theother day and I thought surely
there's something in that thatneeds to go in the book because
(17:42):
it's just on the block.
It was just too full on for itnot to be important.
So that is a real, properpeople please.
The moment scale of the heightsof people, pleaded mountain
there.
Speaker 1 (17:54):
Yeah, I was also going to add into it, maybe a
theme of hypervigilance.
Oh yeah, right.
Speaker 2 (18:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:02):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (18:03):
Yeah, yeah, definitely.
Speaker 1 (18:05):
I think that I'm hearing from you as well in our
conversation.
You know just kind of how it isto have your early come out of
the fog moments and how yourmind is trying to rationale
pretty much your entire life.
I've been there.
I can relate to that.
Speaker 2 (18:24):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:25):
Doing the full reflection and saying things to
yourself that are associatedwith.
Am I depressed?
Speaker 2 (18:32):
Yeah.
Speaker 1 (18:32):
Do I have anxiety?
So you've touched on those two.
Do I people please?
Oh my goodness, do I peopleplease?
I've heard that for you as well.
And hypervigilance we just kindof added that in there, and so
it's a lot to rationale for that.
And I appreciate that you wantto get to the root, which is
what that's your why, the why.
What's driving you is gettingto the root of all of those
(18:54):
things and sharing those outthrough the, through your blog,
through your social media groupand then through your book.
Where do you see yourself goingnext?
I think there's someeducational aspect you have in
mind as well.
Speaker 2 (19:09):
I have no idea.
I am literally unboggling asI'm going and if you read the
blog posts from start to fromwhen I first started, which is
not that long ago, two weeks agoto now, you will see it's
obvious.
You know my writing style islighter and I'm finding more
humor in things and it's not asdark as it was right at the
(19:31):
start.
I literally am sometimeslearning as I type.
I go from not knowing at thestart of a blog post to getting
60% there by the time I finish.
And I am fascinated by my mentalhealth and mental health
generally, because although I'mnot in the super extreme end of
(19:53):
any condition, I have beenpretty bad.
I mean, this year particularlywas I spent probably three
months in the darkest, lowestpoint.
So it fascinates me that I getto that point and get out of
that point.
And so I've started to taken ona college course to a college
in London which is done remotelyand that is just to learn
(20:14):
awareness of mental healthreally, and it's only a few
weeks course and it covers everyaspect that you can imagine,
but only in a relatively sort ofsmall way.
But it's teaching me about howto deal with certain aspects,
how clinically it's dealt withhow it affects people, how it
affects other members of thefamily or carers, and I think if
(20:36):
I'm going to write about thingsthat are leading into mental
health, I should be able tounderstand more of it.
So I just don't have a cluewhere it's going.
I'm just going from day to dayand seeing where it leads me.
Speaker 1 (20:51):
Does that feel different to you than maybe in
the past as well?
Is this a new adventure for youto not be so in the grip of
control of what's going tohappen?
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Oh, don't get me wrong, I'm still fully in
control.
I'm still absolutely grippedtight.
That's not gone away yet.
I don't know.
That is the biggest problem.
I think I don't know how I'mgoing to let go of some of this
stuff, because I can talk aboutit all day and I do feel like
I'd let go of some of it, butsometimes I haven't.
(21:24):
Sometimes that box is stillshut and this is why I'm not
relying on my own mind to get tothe bottom of it, like I've
said.
In one of the blog posts, Isaid that I feel like I know
what my issues are, but they'rebehind the plate of glass and I
can't get to them.
But I'll see them and I canrecognize them in the street.
(21:46):
I need a big hammer to smashthrough that kind of glass so I
can get my hands on themproperly, and I don't feel like
I'm equipped to do that on myown.
But knowing what they are andbeing able to talk about them is
the first step really.
Speaker 1 (22:00):
Yeah, I would venture , andy, a lot of the listeners
can relate to that and exactlywhere you are as well, I know it
runs through me.
There are many days where Iwonder what's going to be next.
I know this sounds maybe alittle dark in a weird way.
Am I going to be able tosurvive the next hit?
(22:22):
Can I take it Like what'scoming next?
Just grappling with theanticipation and not being in
control and the anxiety thatcomes with that.
Speaker 2 (22:34):
Well, that's a half a vision, isn't it, when you're
not aware of what's coming up,but you're so looking forward,
to looking as far ahead as youcan, to see if you can spot that
error, that fault, that nextpitfall.
I suppose, with what I'm doingnow, the work I'm doing now, is
that, yes, you're right, I'm notactually looking at the
(22:56):
pitfalls, I'm just blindly goingforwards and just accepting
what happens.
Really.
Yes, you're probably right.
That is quite a new thing forme.
Speaker 1 (23:04):
I do want to touch on another aspect of your story,
how we started the conversationthat you've had basically a
fairly ideal again we'll use theword ideal childhood to
adulthood.
Where do you stand with yourbiological family?
When we talked about this inpreparation for this discussion,
I loved what you said.
Speaker 2 (23:24):
Yeah, that's an interesting one, because that is
something that is prominent inadoption community, isn't it?
When what I wanted to do wasfind out more information about
where I came from, I thinkthat's in everyone everyone that
doesn't have that information,at least, when I went through
the process of being able to gethold of my adoption file and my
(23:45):
original birth certificate, andin that information was
obviously details about my birthparents, I didn't intend to
look for them.
I went into this back in 1998.
Wasn't interested.
I look back now and think thatpart of it is a big part of it
is not wanting to upset people.
(24:06):
I didn't want to upset anybodyin my adoptive family by making
any effort to find my birthparents.
Really, I mean my mom, myadoptive mom.
She was a little upset.
She was worried that I wasgoing to find my other parents
and then leave them behind.
Of course, that was never goingto happen.
I've always maintained that Ionly have one set of parents and
(24:28):
they're the ones that put allthe effort in to bring to the
point there's a lot of lovebetween us and that's how it
should be.
I don't have any interest indoing so.
I did actually speak to my birthmother.
There is some writing aboutthis on the blog.
I did speak to my birth motheron the telephone once and I was
pretty much told to go away andthen they phoned back after
about 15 minutes and then we hada 20 minute conversation, which
(24:52):
really didn't fill me up at all.
It wasn't a good conversationand I came away feeling almost
rejected again, and that stayedwith me.
Later on, about 10, 12 yearslater, one of my other sisters
found me and I've had a greatrelationship with her and it's
(25:13):
been really nice.
It's been brilliant to find her.
We get on really well.
I don't know how much we lookalike or whatever, but it's been
nice.
What I did find out was that heradoptive mom had the
opportunity to adopt me as welland then chose not to because of
financial reasons.
We had two opportunities to betogether as kids and they all
(25:36):
lived on both.
Really Even now I found onesister, and now I've got another
, and now I've got brothers thatI don't know.
I know there's two moresiblings out there, but I don't
know anything about them.
I don't know where my dad is.
He's not on my birthcertificate At this point in
time.
I genuinely don't feel anykinship with that side of my
(25:58):
life at all.
My original name was David andI maintain that I don't feel as
much as if David died and I'mjust carrying the grief of that
debt and I don't think and Imight be wrong, but I don't
think that I would benefit fromknowing more at this point,
because I feel that the issues Ilive with are, yes, related to
(26:20):
my adoption, absolutely, butthere are no reasons why I was
adopted.
I don't think they're gonnahelp me.
But again, I can say I might bewrong, time will tell.
Speaker 1 (26:29):
Yeah, I think that's a great perspective.
Well, as we start wrapping upour conversation, we have
touched on again some prettysignificant things.
What is an item that you wouldwant the listeners to leave with
knowing about you, and whereare you, social media-wise, that
if there are other gentlemenlisteners that want to get into
(26:53):
a more finite safe space, wheredo they go?
Look?
Speaker 2 (26:56):
Okay, well, the driving force behind everything
that I've done so far has beento find out about me, and then
there was the element of wantingto share so that other people
may find something in that thatresonates with them, and that is
what you know.
I really hope that that doeshelp other people.
The blog is called who's Wallybecause my name was Wally.
(27:19):
I just thought it really fits,because I don't know who I am.
I'm sure there is parts of itthat I don't understand.
So the blog is called who'sWally and the book also be
called who's Wally.
The male adoption group onFacebook is called Mind
Maintenance and the who's Wallywebsite is who's Wally but
(27:40):
Credit UK.
So it's pretty straightforward,and if anybody fancies looking
on there, that'll be fantastic.
Speaker 1 (27:45):
Well, let's close with this.
If there was one thing you hadwished I had asked during this
conversation, what would it beand what would be your answer?
Speaker 2 (27:53):
Yeah, I'm sure there'll be a hundred questions
that I'd wish you'd asked me inabout an hour and a half, but as
it turns out now, I can't thinkabout it.
Speaker 1 (28:02):
I love that.
I actually love that, becausethat is is that not an adoptee
over thinker's mind right there?
That says nothing.
Comes to my mind.
However, what we're donetalking, and I decompress from
this conversation, I'm probablygonna think of about a million
things.
Just to be clear, I'm gonnahave the same thing, Andy.
(28:24):
I'm gonna be decompressing fromour conversation and I'm gonna
be like, oh darn, I really wishI would have said this to him or
asked about this.
Speaker 2 (28:33):
I think I covered everything that you know driven
me to do what I'm doing now, andI genuinely can't think of
anything now.
Speaker 1 (28:39):
Well, as we close out , then, I would love to say
thank you for joining us.
You're just jumping right inand diving, and cold water and
all of the analogies we couldthink of, and I appreciate it
and you are welcome back hereanytime.
I look forward to continuingthe dialogue.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
Yes, thank you very much.
We enjoyed it.
It's been good.
Thanks very much for giving usa chance to come on and bow at
my 50-year-old nonsense.
Speaker 1 (29:02):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us at wanderingtreeecom.
Although I will repay you.
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