August 18, 2023 • 40 mins
Have you ever felt the transformative power of community and connections? Join us as we dive into deep conversations with Erin, Cindy and Annie from Hiraeth, Hope, and Healing about their journeys of self-healing and discovery. They share their poignant stories of self-discovery, revealing how a nurturing community has become their backbone to joy. Each narrative is packed with inspiring tales of their retreat experiences that has allowed them to unfurl their authentic selves without judgement.
The suitcase is dropped in the room and the guest dive into the sanctuary these retreats present, forming a cocoon for adoptees and NPEs to forge real connections and form lifelong bonds. They underline the crucial roles understanding and empathy play in dealing with member of this community, and how a supportive each person in navigating this voyage. This episode is a treat for anyone intrigued by the intertwining realms of adoption and genealogy, and the therapeutic power of unity. Get ready to be moved and inspired by their stories, and possibly see the world through a different lens.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Ann.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So much of that does intersect, so much about being
an adopted person that resonateswith someone who's an NPE.
This absence or lack of geneticmirroring, Hello and welcome to
(00:39):
today's episode.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I am encouraged by the group that is with us today.
I have members of Hyroth, hopeand Healing joining us for a
great discussion on the power ofpeople and connections and all
of the wonderful things that cancome from our community.
And I'm going to turn it overto each of these wonderful
(01:01):
ladies and let them dive intotheir individual perspectives
and stories and then we'll comeback together and we're going to
talk about some of their events, the beauty of those, and I'm
going to start with you, erin.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome.
Good morning Lisa.
Thank you so much for having us.
My name is Erin Constantino andI am an NPE.
I made my discovery in 2017.
In my everyday life, I am awife, a mother, a teacher, an
advocate, and I am so honored tobe here with you today, sharing
(01:34):
the wisdom that we have learned, the wisdom of our lived
experiences, and howtogetherness really does heal.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well, thank you for that.
Do you mind going back just onemoment and spelling out NPE for
our listeners, just in casethis is their first episode ever
?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Sure.
So NPE, a non-paternal event,an old genealogical term that
used to delineate any break inthe paternal line.
With the rise ofdirect-to-consumer DNA tests,
that began several years ago.
We shifted that to be notparent expected, so the acronym
(02:12):
now means not parent expected.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Understood, all right .
Well, thank you for that.
With that, I think we're goingto go over to Annie and let you
introduce yourself a little bitto the audience.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Hi Lisa, thanks for having us.
My name is Annie Persico fromthe Bronx.
I am an NPE and I discovered Ishould say I confirmed my NPE
status around 2015.
I originally took the test in2012,.
You know ignorance of thenewness of the DNA tests.
(02:45):
I didn't know what I waslooking at.
I am a legal assistant.
I work at a law firm inManhattan.
I'm married.
I have no children, but I dohave lots of furry and feathered
friends that share our housewith us.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
All right, well, thank you, and that gets us over
to you, cindy, if you wouldn'tmind introducing yourself as
well.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Cindy, the last one.
Thank you, Good morning, lisa.
My name is Cindy McQuay.
I am the adoptee among us.
I am a baby-soup-era adopteeand always known adoptee.
I grew up with another adoptedsibling and two bio-siblings, so
I had the unique perspective ofbeing in a supportive
(03:31):
environment, of acknowledgingadoption and all the things that
come with adoption.
I am a I should say was I was astay-at-home mom.
My children are now grown, so Iguess I'm just a bum now that
stays at home.
My husband and I have threegrown children.
I have three grandchildren, sowith my children being
(03:55):
semi-grown and flown, it hasallowed me to be much more of an
adoptee advocate.
I love doing searches forpeople, helping them find their
bio-family, reuniting ifpossible but more so giving them
the answers.
I'm an avid reader.
I love the beach.
I have a dog.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Well, thank you for those introductions.
I do appreciate it.
What I would like to do next istalk a little bit about your
connections to one another.
How did you meet who wants totake that one on?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Cindy and I were admins for a large Facebook
group and Cindy loves to tellthe story of how I thought she
was a bitch I very first met her.
Yes, and it's true, I did so.
We had met each other on theinterwebs and this particular
group was hosting a meet andgreet and it was in Philadelphia
(04:52):
, which is dead center of whereCindy and I each live, and so we
thought let's get together,let's go meet in person for real
.
And so we did.
And we attended the meet andgreet and we went out to dinner
afterwards with the large-ishgroup of people that were there.
(05:12):
And when we got back to thehotel that night I said to Cindy
gosh, that was really soamazing, even though Cindy was
the only adoptee, always knownadoptee in attendance.
I said that was really soamazing, but it just wasn't
enough time.
And just wasn't enough timekind of has become a central
theme throughout what we do.
(05:34):
So I said, cindy, what do youthink if we plan a retreat?
And it's like a weekend?
And she was like, oh my gosh,let's do it.
And that's the story of how wemet.
And then we met Annie at thevery first retreat that we held.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
That's a great story.
I love just kind of how itorganically grew.
And I've heard you guys talkabout the perception of kind of
aggravated right.
That's a good word that the twoof you felt.
And I've listened now to youguys tell that story now twice
and it's just as cute for me.
I love it.
(06:08):
I want to now kind of go alittle bit into if you don't
mind and maybe Annie, this wouldbe good for you to answer this
time Kind of talk about thatfirst retreat a little bit and
why did you decide to go on thisretreat?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Well, I was part of this larger group.
I have adoptees in my life andin my orbit, so the world of
adoption was not foreign to me.
As it is Like some people justdon't even know any adoptees, I
happen to know quite a number ofthem.
This retreat came up.
I didn't go to the event inPhiladelphia.
I can't tell you why, I don'teven remember if I was aware of
(06:47):
it.
But when this first retreat wasscheduled I kind of thought well
, the Jersey Shore is kind ofclose, it's only two hours away,
and maybe it would be nice tomeet some other people in person
.
I'm not very good at aone-on-one kind of thing, like
I'm not good at banter or smalltalk if I don't know you.
(07:10):
So I thought a group of peoplemight be better for me to kind
of disappear into, to kind ofget a feeling of what are these
people like.
These are all these strangers.
And when I confirmed that I wascoming, erin sent me a message
and asked if I wanted to stay inthe house.
(07:31):
So we have a retreat house.
Some people stay in the house,some people stay off in a hotel
or whatever.
So I said, well, yeah, ok, I'llstay in the house, so I got
there.
I was one of the first peoplethere, after Erin and Cindy.
I think there may have been oneor two other people there, and
I had never met anybody.
I walked in and I hope thatyour listeners aren't averse to
(07:53):
profanities because I walked inand the very first thing Erin
said to me was hi, do youfucking curse?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So I said getting a mental picture here.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Fuck, yeah, I'm from the Bronx, what do you think?
And that was it.
And I met everybody that wasthere and honestly, I said to
them later on in the day or theweekend, I don't remember when,
but I said when I came in andeverybody started arriving, I
just felt like I knew everyonein my heart.
(08:31):
There was such a connectioninstantly with all of these
strangers that I never metbefore and I just felt at home
and in place.
Like a lot of NPEs and adopteeswill talk about how they always
felt out of place in their ownfamilies, in their own social
(08:52):
circles.
I felt in place for probably oneof the first times in my life.
I went to the next fiveretreats before I missed one
just not a good schedulingsituation for me.
And every single one I getsomething different, something
better, more tools, moreknowledge.
(09:15):
I just can't recommend themenough to just be in person,
even a one-on-one with anotherNPE or with an adoptee, just to
say, like I get it, I know howyou feel and you don't have to
explain it, and I think that'ssuch an important aspect of the
healing process to have someonejust acknowledge what you feel
(09:38):
without you having to say well,I feel this way because I just
do.
I feel this way for no reason.
It's just how I feel.
To be put into that situationis just amazing.
I can't speak highly enough ofthem.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
I'm going to tee up a couple of threads off of that,
annie, and I'm going to punt thefirst one over to you, cindy,
and the second one to you, erin.
The first one is can you talk alittle bit about the tools that
are going into the toolbox forthe attendees to kind of get a
better understanding of thepower of that activity?
And then, erin, I'm going tocome back around to when Cindy's
(10:15):
kind of given us that and talkabout the use of the tools.
But more importantly, I want tospeak to connection and
validation of the feelings andhow that is normative, and I'd
really like you to kind ofexpand on that a little bit more
, because Annie just talkedabout how she felt validated and
(10:36):
comfortable in her feelings andthat is, you know, it's very
important.
So, cindy, you first, how aboutthe toolbox?
Speaker 4 (10:42):
The toolbox.
Erin may have to chime in a tadon this.
She's much better at explainingthe toolbox.
But I'll start off by sayingwhen Erin and I first started
speaking about doing the firstretreat, I had said to her great
, I'm all in, but we have tomake sure that if we're
including all of the community,meaning the NPEs, adopties,
(11:06):
donor Conceived and LDAs thatthey're all inclusive.
The meet and greet that we wereat there were several projects
as the wrong word I can't thinkof the word that they were doing
that I could not partake inbecause it didn't include an
Adopty.
So that was very important.
So when we pick our facilitator, we make sure to emphasize to
(11:28):
them that it's not just forAdopties, that it's the entire
trio of communities because ofthe intersections that we all
have.
So our tools could be anywherefrom the academic aspect to the
I don't want to say meditating,but to the breathing, you know,
(11:49):
just learning how to breathe.
Erin likes to refer to ourtools as the Mary Poppins Bag
and that when you leave eachretreat, something else has been
added into that Mary PoppinsBag that you can just keep
pulling out whichever tool.
I for one am not into writing,and that is one thing that we
(12:11):
almost always have somebodydoing some sort of writing
therapy, but I found that, youknow the first one.
I may have sat there with myarms crossed figuratively, I was
not sitting like that but Ifound that with an open mind.
Wow, there is things withwriting that I can use.
It's not writing a book or mymemoir, you know.
(12:33):
It's finding parts of thedifferent sessions that we offer
that I can use.
So we have all those differenttypes of tools that everybody's
going to benefit some part ofeach of the sessions that are
offered.
Again, like I just said aboutthe writing, there's some thing
(12:56):
that I can get, even if it'swriting a sentence that
validates things for me.
So I don't know, erin, ifthere's anything that you want
to add about the tools.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, I think you did a beautiful job.
There's brain based, scientificapproaches that work for some
people, and then there's moreholistic aspects that work for
other people, and it's reallyimportant to us to have a good
blend of all of that, becauseeven somebody who considers
themselves to be super academicand, you know, wants to know
(13:28):
everything there is to knowabout the biological aspects of
trauma.
We could pull out a drum andstart drumming, and they have
this incredible visceralresponse to the release of all
of that stored energy.
So even someone who comes inthinking, oh, that that holistic
(13:48):
stuff is, it's just not goingto work for me.
I need the practical, brainbased stuff Great.
We're just asking you to try it, and if it works for you, great
.
And if it doesn't, that's okaytoo.
Just like someone who may besuper holistic, doesn't want to
try anything that is sciencebased or, quote, practical, for
(14:09):
lack of a better word.
You know may learn that there'sa natural pathway that it could
work.
So, yeah, we try to havesomething for everyone.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I think that's a great approach.
I do want us to touch.
It really is about livedexperience, connection, the
intersection right and theninclusive of which is really
about our collective community.
There's a lot of cohesivethemes in those, in all of those
experiences that do create thatintersection.
(14:40):
I want to circle back on thekind of getting the validation,
and I don't mean validation like, oh, you're so right, I mean
validation as it is okay.
So kind of talk about that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
One of the things that I am very honest about is
that when I met Cindy, Isubscribed to the rainbows and
unicorns version of adoption andI thought all of those same
platitudes that you know we hearso often oh, it's a beautiful
(15:16):
thing, it's a selfless thing,you know the gratitude piece.
And being in community withadoptees and NPEs and donor
conceived folks, I have learnedso much, obviously I've learned
about the trauma of adoption andthe trauma of donor conception
(15:36):
and the trauma of having a latediscovery whether it's a late
discovery adoption or a latediscovery NPE that so much of
that does intersect, so muchabout being an adopted person.
That resonates with someonewho's an NPE, this absence or
(15:59):
lack of genetic mirroring,preverbal trauma that that could
have occurred.
And when we're together incommunity, there is this ability
to draw on the livedexperiences of each of the
different communities thatallows us to recognize how we
(16:23):
show up and how we come togetherin community, and also that
unconditional acceptance that ifsomething is said in a session
that creates a trauma response,you don't have to run away and
hide because we inherentlyrecognize that that is a trauma
(16:44):
response and you're not in aroom full of people that don't
understand that, and so thiscommunity really has created so
much like I'm almost drawing ablank, because I don't think
there's a part of my life atthis point that hasn't been
affected by or influenced,whether positively or negatively
(17:05):
, by all of these collectiveexperiences and really coming
together in community.
The community piece for me islearning.
It's educational, and youalluded before to normative,
which again is a word that I hadasked that we kind of shift to,
because what is normal, right,who is normal and what is normal
(17:26):
?
Just being able to be withpeople who have experienced
these same things allows us tofeel normal.
But again, what is normal?
So what we're experiencing arenormative things.
People that have experiencedthese things or have this lived
(17:47):
experience don't have to feellike they are pariah.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think that's extremely important.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I can add to that that for me personally, I grew
up with an adopted brother.
I also grew up with adoptedcousins.
There were many adoptees in theneighborhood so I always had
other adoptees to get it with.
When we all come together atthese retreats, it blows my mind
(18:16):
to see the joy if that'sprobably the wrong word, or
maybe it's not but the look onthe attendees' faces to see
somebody else like them and theguard.
You can just see the guard letdown on everybody.
Like Erin was saying, theydon't feel as though they have
(18:39):
to watch what they say.
They can just be free bethemselves, knowing that they're
not going to be judged.
That in itself is just mindblowing.
For the attendees to be aroundother people who legit get it.
I hate to keep using that wordor those words.
That's the truth.
You're around your people, youknow, and it's just amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I'd like to just kind of expand on that a little bit,
relate a very tiny story.
You know to be around peoplelike Cindy was saying, and just
feel like you know you're notbeing judged.
At that first retreat we weresitting at the table and it
wasn't a session, it was justprobably an after-break, this
kind of thing, and one of theattendees was telling a little
(19:25):
bit of her story, right, and Iwas sitting there listening and
in my hand I'm going, wow, ohman, that stinks.
And then I'm like, but wait aminute, that happened to me too.
You know it's more like youforget that you have this kind
of Unusual story becauseeveryone around you has the same
(19:47):
unusual story, you know.
So it it.
I think the retreats kind ofoffer a little bit of the
togetherness part, gives you aplace where you can kind of say
I can tell this without judgment, because it happened to you too
.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
I think that's important and I like the concept
of just again in communitywhere the veils come down.
Cindy, I think you kind of saidthe face is just relax, and I
know we're using the termnormative and I do like that,
even for me.
I am in my, I'm open about myage, I'm in my 50s and equally
closed adoption, and I stillstruggle with what is my
(20:28):
definition of socially normalbehaviors or how people perceive
or may not perceive me, and Idon't know if I'm ever going to
get past that.
But it's nice to be in ascenario on podcasts like this
and my other co-podcasters inthe space or bloggers or writers
where I can go.
(20:50):
That's my deep breath.
I can just take the deep breathand relax, because I have spent
a world of my time Ensuringthat I can somehow fit into the
space and maybe if I had justbeen whatever version of me was
me, I wouldn't be that hyperaware.
So I love, I love that kind ofcontext of that.
Cindy, if you don't, if youdon't mind, can we go back a
(21:11):
little bit, though?
You said something that I thinkis very interesting.
Some listeners would love tohear at least that there is
space for this type of thing inthe world, and that was that you
you kind of grew up aroundother adoptees and your
experience has been different.
I want to hold space for that.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
My story definitely is, is not the norm among other
adoptees.
As I said, I was a baby scoopera adoptee, so my parents did
everything they weren't supposedto do, meaning back then, you
know, most of the parents weretold not to tell them the blind
slate thing.
You know the grateful BS.
I never got any of that.
(21:51):
I was very supportive from theget-go.
I was always inquisitive.
My questions were answered tothe best of their ability.
I, you know I never heard that.
You know your mother loved youso much and so that's why she
thought this was best.
From what I can remember, I wastold she was very young, which
is true.
We always taught adoptionwithin my family.
(22:14):
When I wanted to open myrecords when, you know, the the
US legally allowed me to when Iwas 18, they were very, very
supportive.
You know I came home with mypapers and mom sat down and, you
know, read it with me, lookedover.
You know, to this day she stillasks me questions, you know.
(22:36):
Or when she sees that Irecently met up with, you know,
another cousin.
You know she wants to seepictures.
So I Again the support thatI've gotten.
I'm blown away, you know, byhow many can't even start to
search until their adoptedparents have deceased.
I mean so again, that's why Isay I'm boring, because mine I
(23:02):
Didn't have that.
You know that brick wall.
It was open all the time for me.
Again, I just I'm so saddenedfor those that did not have the
experience that I had.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I think that is fantastic.
It makes me a little bit ofgreen with envy.
I think that for myself, I canonly speak for myself.
If I had had that type of anexperience, I might be a more
grounded person.
But this is where anintersection comes.
I could not feel comfortabletaking that step to go figure it
(23:38):
out until I was released fromthis fear of what would happen
if my Adopted mother found out,and so I waited for her to pass
away.
And that's a common right,that's a common intersection
point.
I think the struggles that wehave with who we are and what we
know about ourselves and how ittransitions when we find out
(24:02):
those things right, morebiological things about
ourselves, it's.
It's interesting as adults togo through that.
Do you have any any thoughts onthat?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
You know that a lot of us NPEs also have some of the
genetic mirroring issues thatadoptees have.
Myself, my dad, my BCF, mybirth certificate, father was
Italian and More acronyms right.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You knew that's what I was thinking.
I'm like we just droppedanother acronym, right Love it.
You know I work in an industrythat's acronym heavy, and so
when I'm over in this world, ohmy gosh it just cocks me up.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
So my dad I differentiate I call my BCF, I
call him my dad and I call mybiological father BF, my father.
You know, my dad was Italian.
His he's first-generationAmerican, so his parents were
off the boat and I grew up inthat world.
I grew up in the Italian world.
I never knew any of my mom'srelatives.
(25:05):
So if I was asked, I would sayI was Italian.
And I can't tell you how manypeople Said to me really, you're
Italian, you don't look Italian, you, you look Irish and like I
don't know what to tell you.
I'm Italian, you know, but I wasvery, very different From my
family, the family that I knew.
(25:26):
You know, they were loud andboisterous and dark and, you
know, expressive and and I wasnot like that, the little blonde
kid sitting quietly in thecorner reading while, well,
everybody, there was all thisItalian chaos around me and that
that goes a long way to feelingout of place.
(25:46):
And if my, if I, if Iquestioned anything, I was
always my, I like to say my momwould invoke long-dead relatives
that nobody knew, you know, whohad freckles, who had blonde
hair, who had.
This doesn't help when thedeception is such that they're,
I guess, trying to protect me,but I don't know from what you
(26:10):
know, from a lie, basically aself-serving lie.
You know, I think that this iswhere a lot of our trauma as
NPEs comes from the deception.
You know, it's a lot ofself-serving deception and I
know I kind of totally went offtrack of what you wanted me to
talk about.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So you know, annie, if I could jump in here for a
second right, because in ourworld we talk a lot about the
weaponization of certain things,right, like the weaponization
of religion.
Right, like that's, theiradoptive parents are doing God's
work and that's why you knowyou needed to be adopted.
(26:50):
And in the NPE world, there'sthis weaponization of protection
.
Right, we were doing this toprotect you, we were doing this
because that's what was best,best for you, right, that's
always the phrase that we hearit's what we thought was best
for you.
And no, no, it wasn't what wasbest for us.
None of this adoption, npe, youknow, donor conception, like
(27:16):
it's what was best for you.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So we've talked a little bit about deception and
their secrecy across all ofthese areas of the community and
we know there are so manydifferent experiences and where
I'm going with that, I thinkI've just found another
intersecting component to all ofthese areas.
I'm gonna call it now thealphabet soup of acronyms for us
(27:38):
Secrecy and then finding outwho you are.
It's earth shattering and Ithink you said it a long time
ago, erin, maybe not on thisepisode, but maybe when we were
talking before when you foundout what was going on in your
world, it rocked your foundation.
So I think that's a commontheme in NPE, npe, lda and,
(28:01):
quite honestly, adoptees too,and so can you kind of talk
about how'd you approach havingyour foundation rock?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, I mean, I said almost immediately and that was
my own self-protection I said,okay, nothing has changed yet
everything has changed, right.
And so in those first initialmoments and hours and days, I
had to remind myself of theparts of me that hadn't changed.
I'm still a wife, I'm still amother, I'm still a teacher, but
(28:31):
there's this whole other sideof me that I don't know.
I don't know anything about it,and there's also this entire
42-year relationship that I hadwith my mother that imploded
because here's this person thatyou are supposed to trust
implicitly, who is always goingto tell you the truth, or the
(28:55):
best version of the truth, trulyto keep you safe Don't touch
the fire, it's hot.
Okay, I shouldn't touch thefire because it's hot.
Now, as kids, do we test that?
Of course we test that.
But then that's proven correct.
Oh shit, my mother told me notto touch the fire because it's
hot, and guess what?
She was right.
So for those of us that havethis discovery in adulthood,
(29:16):
this happens all at once.
It's almost like the slow burnfor the adoptees, right, Like
they have this lifetime ofmaking these realizations, the
late discovery world.
It kind of happens all at once,and so I then needed to figure
out these parts of me that Inever knew where they came from.
(29:36):
They must come from there andthose parts of us that we don't
necessarily like, right Cause Ithink we all have parts of
ourselves that we wish theyweren't that way.
All the time, Realizing theugliness in my own particular
case, the ugliness of mybiological father, it made me
(29:56):
very appreciative that I neverreally allowed those parts of me
to develop.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Well, that's definitely a nature versus
nurture path here, and that onewe could probably spend a few
hours talking about for all ofus in this community, because
there's a good angle to thatwhere it's even beyond the
genetic mirroring.
It's beyond what you look like,it's again your micro behaviors
, it's silly things Like, forexample, in my case, this is
(30:26):
becoming a topic in my home.
I am snarky, you just need toknow I'm sarcastic and I can be
very snarky.
I believe for me that is a 100%defense mechanism, but I gotta
tell you it's so ingrained in mypersonality that it's really
difficult.
And then another in my worldthat I hear and I've heard from
my entire lifetime is that Ihave, like, this weird tone.
(30:47):
Well, I think I don't have atone.
What I mean by that is I can'thear what people are talking
about.
Like I can't hear the tone.
I don't know where it came fromor where it landed.
And I love the fact that youkind of expanded on that so we
could touch a little bit onnurture versus nature, because
it's so.
It is such a theme again in allof these communities and these
(31:07):
various intersecting points.
I didn't think I was gonna hiton your intersection and
inclusion.
So much today, but it has beenvery key to this discussion.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
So that's the genealogical bewilderment that
Annie was and Aaron were bothsaying Annie, where'd I get
these freckles?
And Aaron, how come I can singand nobody else can do this?
And that's where I was saying.
I am Italian and the parents Igrew up with are Swedish and
German.
So, as you can see your readerscan't see I talk with my hands.
(31:41):
I'm the only one in my familythat does that, and it was
constantly oh, there's theItalian and Cindy.
So my genealogical, my obviousthings were acknowledged,
whereas Annie and Aaron it wasoh, it must come from some Lake
(32:01):
Ant or some older person.
So again, I'm blown away at theshock.
Then, when the late discoverypeople find out their discovery
and my gosh, I was being lied to.
It wasn't from this oldrelative, it was from my legit
(32:23):
biological family.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I'm gonna go back to.
I'm a little green with envy.
I believe if I'd had somethingsimilar to your experience, I
would definitely be a differentperson.
Now I feel I'm pretty welladjusted in life and growing
quite a bit, and even in thelast few years I've grown
significantly in who I am andkind of working through some of
those items that are born fromtrauma.
But it would have been I dothink it would have been
(32:45):
different.
All right, well, as we aremoving kind of into our next
portion of discussion and alittle bit of a plug fest here
for your events and you knowwhat's upcoming Retreat for me
has been my greatest healing.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I tried therapy.
I think therapy is amazing.
I say it all the time.
I think everyone should go totherapy at least once in their
lives because I think therapyserves a purpose.
When I made my discovery, theNPE isms were so new that there
really wasn't an NPE-informedtherapist in my area, and so
(33:23):
there was a lot ofre-traumatizing with the phrases
that were shared with me.
And because I had gone totherapy previously, I knew what
I needed to do to heal, and thatwas to become my own healer.
And so I, you know, with thehelp of Cindy, created retreat
and I really focused on thingsthat I knew would help my
(33:45):
healing, bringing facilitatorsin with things that I knew that
I needed.
Being in community with folkswho don't need explanation has
been my greatest, greatestsource of healing.
It has become a labor of love.
Love for me, a labor of love.
That was a little bit of atongue twister.
It's allowed me to growpersonally.
(34:05):
It's allowed me to growprofessionally.
I am now a graduate studentpursuing my master's in social
work so that I can continue tobring healing to each of our
communities.
And there is joy, you know,like Cindy said, like that.
It almost sounds terrible, like, oh my gosh, how can you find
joy in you know being, but thereis so much joy.
(34:30):
Retreat is, retreat is hard,but retreat is beautiful.
You know, we, we, we cry.
Of course we cry, but there'sso much laughter, so much
laughter, and we bring retreatto as many places as possible.
You know, cindy and I have beensearching, and now Annie been
(34:50):
searching, for at least twoyears to try and find a house on
the West Coast.
Spoiler alert we just found one.
We're truly coming to the WestCoast.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I guess I'm up next on Maya.
I think I've said before, mygreatest joy, or what I get the
most out, is seeing theconnections, the friendships
that are for a lifetime, thecamaraderie.
You know we talk about the incommunity, so we're not only in
(35:21):
sessions but we make and eat allour meals together.
So just doing those littlemundane things and watching the
joy on people's faces, you know,talking maybe about a baseball
game and then it goes aroundinto their journey.
I just that.
For me, it gives me so muchpleasure to just sit back and
(35:43):
watch these weekends unfold into.
Oh my gosh, I don't want toleave you guys, can't we just
stay forever?
Like I can tell you when we getback on Tuesdays and you're
drinking coffee by yourself andwe have a big group chat that
you get added to after, andevery Tuesday after retreat you
(36:07):
know the we call them thenewbies are either going.
I missed you guys, and it's thetruth because you have
developed with your people I'mputting my hands together this
bond that you've developedbecause you are with your people
and you're just at such ease.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Annie, anything you want to add.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Sure.
So the thing about retreat isthat we have our attendees from
all walks of life, all differentpolitical, religious,
socioeconomic, different places,right, I love that.
We all get together, those goaway and we become true friends
(36:55):
with people that we normallywouldn't be friends with.
So that's one thing.
I kind of second what Cindy wassaying about watching people
come in.
How you'll see someone?
They're very timid, they'revery they're not sure what to
make of what's happening, right,so they're going to sit at the
end of the table or over thereon the couch or kind of just be
(37:17):
sitting alone and by that nightthey're in the middle of a group
.
They're chit, chatting, they'rehaving a drink, they're
laughing, they're going outside,they're, you know, just the
blossoming of what that personis truly like in their most
intimate moment that younormally might not show
(37:38):
strangers.
I love that and I also love andI wanted to point this out, I
was going to bring it up earlierbut there wasn't a good place
to kind of chime in with it youknow we have sessions and we're
very structured, thanks to Erinand Cindy.
Everything is very structuredand timed and there's a list and
go with your group and you knowall that stuff.
(38:01):
But if you don't want to go toa session and you want to sit at
the pool, that's okay too, andnobody judges you for that.
If you're, if you're calledthat day to just take a nap all
afternoon, it's all abouthealing, but you don't have to
heal the way we tell you to.
There's such a mix of I want tosay for lack of a better term
(38:25):
business and pleasure in theweekend, and we do want to get
across that.
Whatever you feel as anindividual, attending our
retreat is best for you.
That's what we want you to do.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
One thing we did not go over was our scholarship fund
.
I know within our community,the Adopti community
specifically, I see and haveseen a lot of banter about costs
, of resources that are outthere and we honestly do not get
as many applicants as I wish wewould for the scholarship fund.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Where would they find information on that?
Speaker 4 (39:05):
It's a tab right on our website
hyrithhopeandhealingcom.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And what other social media outlets do you guys use
we?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
are on all social media platforms.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
It's not too difficult, then that's good.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Another thing that I thought of that we didn't even
talk about, was the fact that weare now a 5013c 501c3.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Congratulations, ladies.
That's awesome.
Well, I've appreciated our timetogether.
I want to thank each of you forbeing on today's show.
It's been a learning experiencefor me through all of our
conversations, and you arealways all welcome here again.
I am now going to say I'm superinterested in attending a
(39:49):
retreat for just me myself.
I don't be surprised if you seemy name coming across.
What are the next series of?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
events In October.
We will be in Tennessee InApril 2024,.
We will be in New Jersey InJuly 2024, we will be in
California and nowhere will beyet in October 2024.
So stay tuned for that one,that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
And again, thank you guys so much for being on the
show.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Thank you for having us.
Thanks, Lisa.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadocdcom.
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Ann.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
So much of that does intersect, so much about being
an adopted person that resonateswith someone who's an NPE.
This absence or lack of geneticmirroring, Hello and welcome to
(00:39):
today's episode.
Speaker 1 (00:40):
I am encouraged by the group that is with us today.
I have members of Hyroth, hopeand Healing joining us for a
great discussion on the power ofpeople and connections and all
of the wonderful things that cancome from our community.
And I'm going to turn it overto each of these wonderful
(01:01):
ladies and let them dive intotheir individual perspectives
and stories and then we'll comeback together and we're going to
talk about some of their events, the beauty of those, and I'm
going to start with you, erin.
Speaker 2 (01:13):
Welcome.
Good morning Lisa.
Thank you so much for having us.
My name is Erin Constantino andI am an NPE.
I made my discovery in 2017.
In my everyday life, I am awife, a mother, a teacher, an
advocate, and I am so honored tobe here with you today, sharing
(01:34):
the wisdom that we have learned, the wisdom of our lived
experiences, and howtogetherness really does heal.
Speaker 1 (01:42):
Well, thank you for that.
Do you mind going back just onemoment and spelling out NPE for
our listeners, just in casethis is their first episode ever
?
Speaker 2 (01:50):
Sure.
So NPE, a non-paternal event,an old genealogical term that
used to delineate any break inthe paternal line.
With the rise ofdirect-to-consumer DNA tests,
that began several years ago.
We shifted that to be notparent expected, so the acronym
(02:12):
now means not parent expected.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
Understood, all right .
Well, thank you for that.
With that, I think we're goingto go over to Annie and let you
introduce yourself a little bitto the audience.
Speaker 3 (02:24):
Hi Lisa, thanks for having us.
My name is Annie Persico fromthe Bronx.
I am an NPE and I discovered Ishould say I confirmed my NPE
status around 2015.
I originally took the test in2012,.
You know ignorance of thenewness of the DNA tests.
(02:45):
I didn't know what I waslooking at.
I am a legal assistant.
I work at a law firm inManhattan.
I'm married.
I have no children, but I dohave lots of furry and feathered
friends that share our housewith us.
Speaker 1 (03:02):
All right, well, thank you, and that gets us over
to you, cindy, if you wouldn'tmind introducing yourself as
well.
Speaker 4 (03:08):
Cindy, the last one.
Thank you, Good morning, lisa.
My name is Cindy McQuay.
I am the adoptee among us.
I am a baby-soup-era adopteeand always known adoptee.
I grew up with another adoptedsibling and two bio-siblings, so
I had the unique perspective ofbeing in a supportive
(03:31):
environment, of acknowledgingadoption and all the things that
come with adoption.
I am a I should say was I was astay-at-home mom.
My children are now grown, so Iguess I'm just a bum now that
stays at home.
My husband and I have threegrown children.
I have three grandchildren, sowith my children being
(03:55):
semi-grown and flown, it hasallowed me to be much more of an
adoptee advocate.
I love doing searches forpeople, helping them find their
bio-family, reuniting ifpossible but more so giving them
the answers.
I'm an avid reader.
I love the beach.
I have a dog.
Speaker 1 (04:17):
Well, thank you for those introductions.
I do appreciate it.
What I would like to do next istalk a little bit about your
connections to one another.
How did you meet who wants totake that one on?
Speaker 2 (04:28):
Cindy and I were admins for a large Facebook
group and Cindy loves to tellthe story of how I thought she
was a bitch I very first met her.
Yes, and it's true, I did so.
We had met each other on theinterwebs and this particular
group was hosting a meet andgreet and it was in Philadelphia
(04:52):
, which is dead center of whereCindy and I each live, and so we
thought let's get together,let's go meet in person for real
.
And so we did.
And we attended the meet andgreet and we went out to dinner
afterwards with the large-ishgroup of people that were there.
(05:12):
And when we got back to thehotel that night I said to Cindy
gosh, that was really soamazing, even though Cindy was
the only adoptee, always knownadoptee in attendance.
I said that was really soamazing, but it just wasn't
enough time.
And just wasn't enough timekind of has become a central
theme throughout what we do.
(05:34):
So I said, cindy, what do youthink if we plan a retreat?
And it's like a weekend?
And she was like, oh my gosh,let's do it.
And that's the story of how wemet.
And then we met Annie at thevery first retreat that we held.
Speaker 1 (05:48):
That's a great story.
I love just kind of how itorganically grew.
And I've heard you guys talkabout the perception of kind of
aggravated right.
That's a good word that the twoof you felt.
And I've listened now to youguys tell that story now twice
and it's just as cute for me.
I love it.
(06:08):
I want to now kind of go alittle bit into if you don't
mind and maybe Annie, this wouldbe good for you to answer this
time Kind of talk about thatfirst retreat a little bit and
why did you decide to go on thisretreat?
Speaker 3 (06:23):
Well, I was part of this larger group.
I have adoptees in my life andin my orbit, so the world of
adoption was not foreign to me.
As it is Like some people justdon't even know any adoptees, I
happen to know quite a number ofthem.
This retreat came up.
I didn't go to the event inPhiladelphia.
I can't tell you why, I don'teven remember if I was aware of
(06:47):
it.
But when this first retreat wasscheduled I kind of thought well
, the Jersey Shore is kind ofclose, it's only two hours away,
and maybe it would be nice tomeet some other people in person
.
I'm not very good at aone-on-one kind of thing, like
I'm not good at banter or smalltalk if I don't know you.
(07:10):
So I thought a group of peoplemight be better for me to kind
of disappear into, to kind ofget a feeling of what are these
people like.
These are all these strangers.
And when I confirmed that I wascoming, erin sent me a message
and asked if I wanted to stay inthe house.
(07:31):
So we have a retreat house.
Some people stay in the house,some people stay off in a hotel
or whatever.
So I said, well, yeah, ok, I'llstay in the house, so I got
there.
I was one of the first peoplethere, after Erin and Cindy.
I think there may have been oneor two other people there, and
I had never met anybody.
I walked in and I hope thatyour listeners aren't averse to
(07:53):
profanities because I walked inand the very first thing Erin
said to me was hi, do youfucking curse?
Speaker 1 (08:06):
So I said getting a mental picture here.
Speaker 3 (08:09):
Fuck, yeah, I'm from the Bronx, what do you think?
And that was it.
And I met everybody that wasthere and honestly, I said to
them later on in the day or theweekend, I don't remember when,
but I said when I came in andeverybody started arriving, I
just felt like I knew everyonein my heart.
(08:31):
There was such a connectioninstantly with all of these
strangers that I never metbefore and I just felt at home
and in place.
Like a lot of NPEs and adopteeswill talk about how they always
felt out of place in their ownfamilies, in their own social
(08:52):
circles.
I felt in place for probably oneof the first times in my life.
I went to the next fiveretreats before I missed one
just not a good schedulingsituation for me.
And every single one I getsomething different, something
better, more tools, moreknowledge.
(09:15):
I just can't recommend themenough to just be in person,
even a one-on-one with anotherNPE or with an adoptee, just to
say, like I get it, I know howyou feel and you don't have to
explain it, and I think that'ssuch an important aspect of the
healing process to have someonejust acknowledge what you feel
(09:38):
without you having to say well,I feel this way because I just
do.
I feel this way for no reason.
It's just how I feel.
To be put into that situationis just amazing.
I can't speak highly enough ofthem.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
I'm going to tee up a couple of threads off of that,
annie, and I'm going to punt thefirst one over to you, cindy,
and the second one to you, erin.
The first one is can you talk alittle bit about the tools that
are going into the toolbox forthe attendees to kind of get a
better understanding of thepower of that activity?
And then, erin, I'm going tocome back around to when Cindy's
(10:15):
kind of given us that and talkabout the use of the tools.
But more importantly, I want tospeak to connection and
validation of the feelings andhow that is normative, and I'd
really like you to kind ofexpand on that a little bit more
, because Annie just talkedabout how she felt validated and
(10:36):
comfortable in her feelings andthat is, you know, it's very
important.
So, cindy, you first, how aboutthe toolbox?
Speaker 4 (10:42):
The toolbox.
Erin may have to chime in a tadon this.
She's much better at explainingthe toolbox.
But I'll start off by sayingwhen Erin and I first started
speaking about doing the firstretreat, I had said to her great
, I'm all in, but we have tomake sure that if we're
including all of the community,meaning the NPEs, adopties,
(11:06):
donor Conceived and LDAs thatthey're all inclusive.
The meet and greet that we wereat there were several projects
as the wrong word I can't thinkof the word that they were doing
that I could not partake inbecause it didn't include an
Adopty.
So that was very important.
So when we pick our facilitator, we make sure to emphasize to
(11:28):
them that it's not just forAdopties, that it's the entire
trio of communities because ofthe intersections that we all
have.
So our tools could be anywherefrom the academic aspect to the
I don't want to say meditating,but to the breathing, you know,
(11:49):
just learning how to breathe.
Erin likes to refer to ourtools as the Mary Poppins Bag
and that when you leave eachretreat, something else has been
added into that Mary PoppinsBag that you can just keep
pulling out whichever tool.
I for one am not into writing,and that is one thing that we
(12:11):
almost always have somebodydoing some sort of writing
therapy, but I found that, youknow the first one.
I may have sat there with myarms crossed figuratively, I was
not sitting like that but Ifound that with an open mind.
Wow, there is things withwriting that I can use.
It's not writing a book or mymemoir, you know.
(12:33):
It's finding parts of thedifferent sessions that we offer
that I can use.
So we have all those differenttypes of tools that everybody's
going to benefit some part ofeach of the sessions that are
offered.
Again, like I just said aboutthe writing, there's some thing
(12:56):
that I can get, even if it'swriting a sentence that
validates things for me.
So I don't know, erin, ifthere's anything that you want
to add about the tools.
Speaker 2 (13:05):
No, I think you did a beautiful job.
There's brain based, scientificapproaches that work for some
people, and then there's moreholistic aspects that work for
other people, and it's reallyimportant to us to have a good
blend of all of that, becauseeven somebody who considers
themselves to be super academicand, you know, wants to know
(13:28):
everything there is to knowabout the biological aspects of
trauma.
We could pull out a drum andstart drumming, and they have
this incredible visceralresponse to the release of all
of that stored energy.
So even someone who comes inthinking, oh, that that holistic
(13:48):
stuff is, it's just not goingto work for me.
I need the practical, brainbased stuff Great.
We're just asking you to try it, and if it works for you, great
.
And if it doesn't, that's okaytoo.
Just like someone who may besuper holistic, doesn't want to
try anything that is sciencebased or, quote, practical, for
(14:09):
lack of a better word.
You know may learn that there'sa natural pathway that it could
work.
So, yeah, we try to havesomething for everyone.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
I think that's a great approach.
I do want us to touch.
It really is about livedexperience, connection, the
intersection right and theninclusive of which is really
about our collective community.
There's a lot of cohesivethemes in those, in all of those
experiences that do create thatintersection.
(14:40):
I want to circle back on thekind of getting the validation,
and I don't mean validation like, oh, you're so right, I mean
validation as it is okay.
So kind of talk about that alittle bit.
Speaker 2 (14:53):
One of the things that I am very honest about is
that when I met Cindy, Isubscribed to the rainbows and
unicorns version of adoption andI thought all of those same
platitudes that you know we hearso often oh, it's a beautiful
(15:16):
thing, it's a selfless thing,you know the gratitude piece.
And being in community withadoptees and NPEs and donor
conceived folks, I have learnedso much, obviously I've learned
about the trauma of adoption andthe trauma of donor conception
(15:36):
and the trauma of having a latediscovery whether it's a late
discovery adoption or a latediscovery NPE that so much of
that does intersect, so muchabout being an adopted person.
That resonates with someonewho's an NPE, this absence or
(15:59):
lack of genetic mirroring,preverbal trauma that that could
have occurred.
And when we're together incommunity, there is this ability
to draw on the livedexperiences of each of the
different communities thatallows us to recognize how we
(16:23):
show up and how we come togetherin community, and also that
unconditional acceptance that ifsomething is said in a session
that creates a trauma response,you don't have to run away and
hide because we inherentlyrecognize that that is a trauma
(16:44):
response and you're not in aroom full of people that don't
understand that, and so thiscommunity really has created so
much like I'm almost drawing ablank, because I don't think
there's a part of my life atthis point that hasn't been
affected by or influenced,whether positively or negatively
(17:05):
, by all of these collectiveexperiences and really coming
together in community.
The community piece for me islearning.
It's educational, and youalluded before to normative,
which again is a word that I hadasked that we kind of shift to,
because what is normal, right,who is normal and what is normal
(17:26):
?
Just being able to be withpeople who have experienced
these same things allows us tofeel normal.
But again, what is normal?
So what we're experiencing arenormative things.
People that have experiencedthese things or have this lived
(17:47):
experience don't have to feellike they are pariah.
Speaker 1 (17:52):
I think that's extremely important.
Speaker 4 (17:53):
I can add to that that for me personally, I grew
up with an adopted brother.
I also grew up with adoptedcousins.
There were many adoptees in theneighborhood so I always had
other adoptees to get it with.
When we all come together atthese retreats, it blows my mind
(18:16):
to see the joy if that'sprobably the wrong word, or
maybe it's not but the look onthe attendees' faces to see
somebody else like them and theguard.
You can just see the guard letdown on everybody.
Like Erin was saying, theydon't feel as though they have
(18:39):
to watch what they say.
They can just be free bethemselves, knowing that they're
not going to be judged.
That in itself is just mindblowing.
For the attendees to be aroundother people who legit get it.
I hate to keep using that wordor those words.
That's the truth.
You're around your people, youknow, and it's just amazing.
Speaker 3 (19:01):
I'd like to just kind of expand on that a little bit,
relate a very tiny story.
You know to be around peoplelike Cindy was saying, and just
feel like you know you're notbeing judged.
At that first retreat we weresitting at the table and it
wasn't a session, it was justprobably an after-break, this
kind of thing, and one of theattendees was telling a little
(19:25):
bit of her story, right, and Iwas sitting there listening and
in my hand I'm going, wow, ohman, that stinks.
And then I'm like, but wait aminute, that happened to me too.
You know it's more like youforget that you have this kind
of Unusual story becauseeveryone around you has the same
(19:47):
unusual story, you know.
So it it.
I think the retreats kind ofoffer a little bit of the
togetherness part, gives you aplace where you can kind of say
I can tell this without judgment, because it happened to you too
.
Speaker 1 (20:03):
I think that's important and I like the concept
of just again in communitywhere the veils come down.
Cindy, I think you kind of saidthe face is just relax, and I
know we're using the termnormative and I do like that,
even for me.
I am in my, I'm open about myage, I'm in my 50s and equally
closed adoption, and I stillstruggle with what is my
(20:28):
definition of socially normalbehaviors or how people perceive
or may not perceive me, and Idon't know if I'm ever going to
get past that.
But it's nice to be in ascenario on podcasts like this
and my other co-podcasters inthe space or bloggers or writers
where I can go.
(20:50):
That's my deep breath.
I can just take the deep breathand relax, because I have spent
a world of my time Ensuringthat I can somehow fit into the
space and maybe if I had justbeen whatever version of me was
me, I wouldn't be that hyperaware.
So I love, I love that kind ofcontext of that.
Cindy, if you don't, if youdon't mind, can we go back a
(21:11):
little bit, though?
You said something that I thinkis very interesting.
Some listeners would love tohear at least that there is
space for this type of thing inthe world, and that was that you
you kind of grew up aroundother adoptees and your
experience has been different.
I want to hold space for that.
Speaker 4 (21:30):
My story definitely is, is not the norm among other
adoptees.
As I said, I was a baby scoopera adoptee, so my parents did
everything they weren't supposedto do, meaning back then, you
know, most of the parents weretold not to tell them the blind
slate thing.
You know the grateful BS.
I never got any of that.
(21:51):
I was very supportive from theget-go.
I was always inquisitive.
My questions were answered tothe best of their ability.
I, you know I never heard that.
You know your mother loved youso much and so that's why she
thought this was best.
From what I can remember, I wastold she was very young, which
is true.
We always taught adoptionwithin my family.
(22:14):
When I wanted to open myrecords when, you know, the the
US legally allowed me to when Iwas 18, they were very, very
supportive.
You know I came home with mypapers and mom sat down and, you
know, read it with me, lookedover.
You know, to this day she stillasks me questions, you know.
(22:36):
Or when she sees that Irecently met up with, you know,
another cousin.
You know she wants to seepictures.
So I Again the support thatI've gotten.
I'm blown away, you know, byhow many can't even start to
search until their adoptedparents have deceased.
I mean so again, that's why Isay I'm boring, because mine I
(23:02):
Didn't have that.
You know that brick wall.
It was open all the time for me.
Again, I just I'm so saddenedfor those that did not have the
experience that I had.
Speaker 1 (23:17):
I think that is fantastic.
It makes me a little bit ofgreen with envy.
I think that for myself, I canonly speak for myself.
If I had had that type of anexperience, I might be a more
grounded person.
But this is where anintersection comes.
I could not feel comfortabletaking that step to go figure it
(23:38):
out until I was released fromthis fear of what would happen
if my Adopted mother found out,and so I waited for her to pass
away.
And that's a common right,that's a common intersection
point.
I think the struggles that wehave with who we are and what we
know about ourselves and how ittransitions when we find out
(24:02):
those things right, morebiological things about
ourselves, it's.
It's interesting as adults togo through that.
Do you have any any thoughts onthat?
Speaker 3 (24:10):
You know that a lot of us NPEs also have some of the
genetic mirroring issues thatadoptees have.
Myself, my dad, my BCF, mybirth certificate, father was
Italian and More acronyms right.
Speaker 1 (24:29):
You knew that's what I was thinking.
I'm like we just droppedanother acronym, right Love it.
You know I work in an industrythat's acronym heavy, and so
when I'm over in this world, ohmy gosh it just cocks me up.
Speaker 3 (24:42):
So my dad I differentiate I call my BCF, I
call him my dad and I call mybiological father BF, my father.
You know, my dad was Italian.
His he's first-generationAmerican, so his parents were
off the boat and I grew up inthat world.
I grew up in the Italian world.
I never knew any of my mom'srelatives.
(25:05):
So if I was asked, I would sayI was Italian.
And I can't tell you how manypeople Said to me really, you're
Italian, you don't look Italian, you, you look Irish and like I
don't know what to tell you.
I'm Italian, you know, but I wasvery, very different From my
family, the family that I knew.
(25:26):
You know, they were loud andboisterous and dark and, you
know, expressive and and I wasnot like that, the little blonde
kid sitting quietly in thecorner reading while, well,
everybody, there was all thisItalian chaos around me and that
that goes a long way to feelingout of place.
(25:46):
And if my, if I, if Iquestioned anything, I was
always my, I like to say my momwould invoke long-dead relatives
that nobody knew, you know, whohad freckles, who had blonde
hair, who had.
This doesn't help when thedeception is such that they're,
I guess, trying to protect me,but I don't know from what you
(26:10):
know, from a lie, basically aself-serving lie.
You know, I think that this iswhere a lot of our trauma as
NPEs comes from the deception.
You know, it's a lot ofself-serving deception and I
know I kind of totally went offtrack of what you wanted me to
talk about.
Speaker 2 (26:28):
So you know, annie, if I could jump in here for a
second right, because in ourworld we talk a lot about the
weaponization of certain things,right, like the weaponization
of religion.
Right, like that's, theiradoptive parents are doing God's
work and that's why you knowyou needed to be adopted.
(26:50):
And in the NPE world, there'sthis weaponization of protection
.
Right, we were doing this toprotect you, we were doing this
because that's what was best,best for you, right, that's
always the phrase that we hearit's what we thought was best
for you.
And no, no, it wasn't what wasbest for us.
None of this adoption, npe, youknow, donor conception, like
(27:16):
it's what was best for you.
Speaker 1 (27:17):
So we've talked a little bit about deception and
their secrecy across all ofthese areas of the community and
we know there are so manydifferent experiences and where
I'm going with that, I thinkI've just found another
intersecting component to all ofthese areas.
I'm gonna call it now thealphabet soup of acronyms for us
(27:38):
Secrecy and then finding outwho you are.
It's earth shattering and Ithink you said it a long time
ago, erin, maybe not on thisepisode, but maybe when we were
talking before when you foundout what was going on in your
world, it rocked your foundation.
So I think that's a commontheme in NPE, npe, lda and,
(28:01):
quite honestly, adoptees too,and so can you kind of talk
about how'd you approach havingyour foundation rock?
Speaker 2 (28:08):
Yeah, I mean, I said almost immediately and that was
my own self-protection I said,okay, nothing has changed yet
everything has changed, right.
And so in those first initialmoments and hours and days, I
had to remind myself of theparts of me that hadn't changed.
I'm still a wife, I'm still amother, I'm still a teacher, but
(28:31):
there's this whole other sideof me that I don't know.
I don't know anything about it,and there's also this entire
42-year relationship that I hadwith my mother that imploded
because here's this person thatyou are supposed to trust
implicitly, who is always goingto tell you the truth, or the
(28:55):
best version of the truth, trulyto keep you safe Don't touch
the fire, it's hot.
Okay, I shouldn't touch thefire because it's hot.
Now, as kids, do we test that?
Of course we test that.
But then that's proven correct.
Oh shit, my mother told me notto touch the fire because it's
hot, and guess what?
She was right.
So for those of us that havethis discovery in adulthood,
(29:16):
this happens all at once.
It's almost like the slow burnfor the adoptees, right, Like
they have this lifetime ofmaking these realizations, the
late discovery world.
It kind of happens all at once,and so I then needed to figure
out these parts of me that Inever knew where they came from.
(29:36):
They must come from there andthose parts of us that we don't
necessarily like, right Cause Ithink we all have parts of
ourselves that we wish theyweren't that way.
All the time, Realizing theugliness in my own particular
case, the ugliness of mybiological father, it made me
(29:56):
very appreciative that I neverreally allowed those parts of me
to develop.
Speaker 1 (30:02):
Well, that's definitely a nature versus
nurture path here, and that onewe could probably spend a few
hours talking about for all ofus in this community, because
there's a good angle to thatwhere it's even beyond the
genetic mirroring.
It's beyond what you look like,it's again your micro behaviors
, it's silly things Like, forexample, in my case, this is
(30:26):
becoming a topic in my home.
I am snarky, you just need toknow I'm sarcastic and I can be
very snarky.
I believe for me that is a 100%defense mechanism, but I gotta
tell you it's so ingrained in mypersonality that it's really
difficult.
And then another in my worldthat I hear and I've heard from
my entire lifetime is that Ihave, like, this weird tone.
(30:47):
Well, I think I don't have atone.
What I mean by that is I can'thear what people are talking
about.
Like I can't hear the tone.
I don't know where it came fromor where it landed.
And I love the fact that youkind of expanded on that so we
could touch a little bit onnurture versus nature, because
it's so.
It is such a theme again in allof these communities and these
(31:07):
various intersecting points.
I didn't think I was gonna hiton your intersection and
inclusion.
So much today, but it has beenvery key to this discussion.
Speaker 4 (31:16):
So that's the genealogical bewilderment that
Annie was and Aaron were bothsaying Annie, where'd I get
these freckles?
And Aaron, how come I can singand nobody else can do this?
And that's where I was saying.
I am Italian and the parents Igrew up with are Swedish and
German.
So, as you can see your readerscan't see I talk with my hands.
(31:41):
I'm the only one in my familythat does that, and it was
constantly oh, there's theItalian and Cindy.
So my genealogical, my obviousthings were acknowledged,
whereas Annie and Aaron it wasoh, it must come from some Lake
(32:01):
Ant or some older person.
So again, I'm blown away at theshock.
Then, when the late discoverypeople find out their discovery
and my gosh, I was being lied to.
It wasn't from this oldrelative, it was from my legit
(32:23):
biological family.
Speaker 1 (32:24):
I'm gonna go back to.
I'm a little green with envy.
I believe if I'd had somethingsimilar to your experience, I
would definitely be a differentperson.
Now I feel I'm pretty welladjusted in life and growing
quite a bit, and even in thelast few years I've grown
significantly in who I am andkind of working through some of
those items that are born fromtrauma.
But it would have been I dothink it would have been
(32:45):
different.
All right, well, as we aremoving kind of into our next
portion of discussion and alittle bit of a plug fest here
for your events and you knowwhat's upcoming Retreat for me
has been my greatest healing.
Speaker 2 (33:01):
I tried therapy.
I think therapy is amazing.
I say it all the time.
I think everyone should go totherapy at least once in their
lives because I think therapyserves a purpose.
When I made my discovery, theNPE isms were so new that there
really wasn't an NPE-informedtherapist in my area, and so
(33:23):
there was a lot ofre-traumatizing with the phrases
that were shared with me.
And because I had gone totherapy previously, I knew what
I needed to do to heal, and thatwas to become my own healer.
And so I, you know, with thehelp of Cindy, created retreat
and I really focused on thingsthat I knew would help my
(33:45):
healing, bringing facilitatorsin with things that I knew that
I needed.
Being in community with folkswho don't need explanation has
been my greatest, greatestsource of healing.
It has become a labor of love.
Love for me, a labor of love.
That was a little bit of atongue twister.
It's allowed me to growpersonally.
(34:05):
It's allowed me to growprofessionally.
I am now a graduate studentpursuing my master's in social
work so that I can continue tobring healing to each of our
communities.
And there is joy, you know,like Cindy said, like that.
It almost sounds terrible, like, oh my gosh, how can you find
joy in you know being, but thereis so much joy.
(34:30):
Retreat is, retreat is hard,but retreat is beautiful.
You know, we, we, we cry.
Of course we cry, but there'sso much laughter, so much
laughter, and we bring retreatto as many places as possible.
You know, cindy and I have beensearching, and now Annie been
(34:50):
searching, for at least twoyears to try and find a house on
the West Coast.
Spoiler alert we just found one.
We're truly coming to the WestCoast.
Speaker 4 (35:00):
I guess I'm up next on Maya.
I think I've said before, mygreatest joy, or what I get the
most out, is seeing theconnections, the friendships
that are for a lifetime, thecamaraderie.
You know we talk about the incommunity, so we're not only in
(35:21):
sessions but we make and eat allour meals together.
So just doing those littlemundane things and watching the
joy on people's faces, you know,talking maybe about a baseball
game and then it goes aroundinto their journey.
I just that.
For me, it gives me so muchpleasure to just sit back and
(35:43):
watch these weekends unfold into.
Oh my gosh, I don't want toleave you guys, can't we just
stay forever?
Like I can tell you when we getback on Tuesdays and you're
drinking coffee by yourself andwe have a big group chat that
you get added to after, andevery Tuesday after retreat you
(36:07):
know the we call them thenewbies are either going.
I missed you guys, and it's thetruth because you have
developed with your people I'mputting my hands together this
bond that you've developedbecause you are with your people
and you're just at such ease.
Speaker 1 (36:26):
Annie, anything you want to add.
Speaker 3 (36:28):
Sure.
So the thing about retreat isthat we have our attendees from
all walks of life, all differentpolitical, religious,
socioeconomic, different places,right, I love that.
We all get together, those goaway and we become true friends
(36:55):
with people that we normallywouldn't be friends with.
So that's one thing.
I kind of second what Cindy wassaying about watching people
come in.
How you'll see someone?
They're very timid, they'revery they're not sure what to
make of what's happening, right,so they're going to sit at the
end of the table or over thereon the couch or kind of just be
(37:17):
sitting alone and by that nightthey're in the middle of a group
.
They're chit, chatting, they'rehaving a drink, they're
laughing, they're going outside,they're, you know, just the
blossoming of what that personis truly like in their most
intimate moment that younormally might not show
(37:38):
strangers.
I love that and I also love andI wanted to point this out, I
was going to bring it up earlierbut there wasn't a good place
to kind of chime in with it youknow we have sessions and we're
very structured, thanks to Erinand Cindy.
Everything is very structuredand timed and there's a list and
go with your group and you knowall that stuff.
(38:01):
But if you don't want to go toa session and you want to sit at
the pool, that's okay too, andnobody judges you for that.
If you're, if you're calledthat day to just take a nap all
afternoon, it's all abouthealing, but you don't have to
heal the way we tell you to.
There's such a mix of I want tosay for lack of a better term
(38:25):
business and pleasure in theweekend, and we do want to get
across that.
Whatever you feel as anindividual, attending our
retreat is best for you.
That's what we want you to do.
Speaker 4 (38:39):
One thing we did not go over was our scholarship fund
.
I know within our community,the Adopti community
specifically, I see and haveseen a lot of banter about costs
, of resources that are outthere and we honestly do not get
as many applicants as I wish wewould for the scholarship fund.
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Where would they find information on that?
Speaker 4 (39:05):
It's a tab right on our website
hyrithhopeandhealingcom.
Speaker 1 (39:11):
And what other social media outlets do you guys use
we?
Speaker 2 (39:16):
are on all social media platforms.
Speaker 1 (39:18):
It's not too difficult, then that's good.
Speaker 4 (39:20):
Another thing that I thought of that we didn't even
talk about, was the fact that weare now a 5013c 501c3.
Speaker 1 (39:27):
Congratulations, ladies.
That's awesome.
Well, I've appreciated our timetogether.
I want to thank each of you forbeing on today's show.
It's been a learning experiencefor me through all of our
conversations, and you arealways all welcome here again.
I am now going to say I'm superinterested in attending a
(39:49):
retreat for just me myself.
I don't be surprised if you seemy name coming across.
What are the next series of?
Speaker 2 (39:55):
events In October.
We will be in Tennessee InApril 2024,.
We will be in New Jersey InJuly 2024, we will be in
California and nowhere will beyet in October 2024.
So stay tuned for that one,that's awesome.
Speaker 1 (40:15):
And again, thank you guys so much for being on the
show.
Speaker 3 (40:17):
Thank you for having us.
Thanks, Lisa.
Speaker 1 (40:21):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadocdcom.
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