November 22, 2023 • 35 mins
Ever wonder how it feels to grow up feeling chosen, only to discover that your life's narrative was built on a web of half-truths? Get ready for an adoptee rollercoaster as we sit down with Jack Rocco MD, author of "Recycled." Jack takes us through his adoption journey from his loving upbringing in a tight-knit Italian family to his path of self-discovery sparked by an eye-opening blind date and a transformative book.
As our conversation unfolds, Jack candidly explores the emotional labyrinth of adoption. He shares the challenges he faced reconciling the love of his adoptive family with the longing to unearth his biological roots, the impact of discovering family secrets, and his struggle to make peace with his identity. His story is further enriched by his examination of free will and the importance of truth. We also discuss the role of local resources in helping individuals navigate situations like his, and the healing power of community.
Delving deeper, we switch gears to discuss a often overlooked perspective - that of male adoptees. Jack provides valuable insights into his own struggle with understanding his identity as an African American male in a society laden with traditional masculine roles. He shares how learning about the civil rights movement brought him closer to his roots, and how writing his book helped him reconcile his upbringing with his true self. Join us in this deeply moving conversation that not only shares the journey of an adoptee but also shines a light on the universal quest for identity. This is an episode that will make you rethink your understanding of adoption, identity, and the true meaning of family.
When it comes to the amplification of male adoptee voices, it is crucial to recognize the unique experiences and perspectives they bring to the table. Each male adoptees has a valuable role to play in helping to shape the narrative around adoption by providing insights into their own personal journeys. This six-episode series is taking us on a spectacular journey of meaningful conversations, were male adoptees have been empowered to share their stories, break down stereotypes, and contribute to a greater understanding of the adoption experience as a whole.
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
Book: https://www.amazon.com/Recycled-Reluctant-Search-Through-Nurture/dp/1990688136
IG: https://www.instagram.com/recycledchild/
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, I think it's huge.
I think it's.
You know, my first contact waswith Michael Rocco.
He goes.
Michael Rocco is his name inadoption community and it just
coincidental that his birth lastname was my adopted last name.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Welcome everybody to today's episode.
With me.
I have adoptee Jack Rocco MD,and he's here to talk a little
bit about his adoption story,some of the great things that
have come of that experience andhis take and how he tackles
life in general, and so withthat I'm going to hand it over
(01:01):
to Jack Welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate your interest andopportunity to share with you
today.
I guess I am one of the luckyones.
As far as you know, early on inmy life I felt I lived a very
blessed life.
I think I had a great familyand the adoption line story was
(01:28):
presented to me, like it was tomany people, as you know, this
is a blessing.
You were chosen.
You know many.
You know I remember my mothersitting you on the bed and
saying you know, some peoplejust get babies because they
have babies.
But you know we chose you, wewanted you and you know I mean I
felt that and I didn't reallyhave any.
(01:50):
You know major issues.
I think growing up we were avery close knit Italian family.
My grandfather immigrated fromItaly, so my father was first
generation, I was second and youknow that included basically
four families.
You know each of mygrandparents had four kids and
(02:11):
each of the four kids all movedwithin a two block radius of
each other.
And you know every holiday,every birthday, christmas, you
know the family was all togetherwith all the kids and we were
constantly playing in mygrandparents backyard and having
dinners and birthdays.
So it was great.
I mean, I really have, you know, not any unusual upbringing
(02:37):
stories related to, you know,related to adoption.
I felt like I fit in well withthe family, you know, and never,
never, questioned it.
I think my first you know what Icall my first chink in the
armor, if you will happened whenI was in residency.
You know I did well in school.
I went to, you know, undergradwas the first, first of my
(03:00):
family, to go to college andthen, you know, accepted into
medical school and it was inresidency.
I was probably 30 years old.
I had a blind date and on thisdate we were having a normal
conversation and I asked hersomething about you know, what?
About your parents?
And she said well, that'sinteresting because I was
adopted.
(03:20):
You know, that clearly struck achord with me and, you know, I
was still trying to be cuteabout it and, you know, asked
her the question that everyonealways asked me is you know, did
you ever want to find your realparents?
And I was expecting her to say,no, she had a good family and
everything was great like it wasfor me.
That was, that was my cannedresponse, and then she said,
(03:45):
well, actually it's interestingbecause the story that my
parents were told wasn't true,you know, and she basically
ended up telling me my exactsame story about how her, you
know.
She was told that her parentswere two young college kids who
got pregnant and couldn't affordto have a baby, so they decided
to give it away to a goodfamily so she could be raised
(04:07):
properly, which was, word forword, what I had been told.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I think I want to go back just a couple of steps too.
So that was a chink in thearmor, and what are the odds?
I mean, in all honesty, what doyou suppose the odds are?
That you would meet someone, goout with them, have a random
conversation and they'd go.
Yeah, I'm adopted too.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, I mean it was.
You know I miss that.
I was 30 years old.
I'd like to consider myself atthat point in time fairly.
I don't know about worldly, butyou know I'd moved away from
home, you know, to Pittsburghand then Philadelphia, and I
felt I was, you know, I had itall together, but I never had
really met anyone that Ipersonally had a conversation
(04:55):
with it about.
You know, my sister and Ireally never talked about it.
You know we were just it wasaccepted Actually had an older
uncle who was adopted as well.
You know, and you know so it wassomething that was just, you
know, almost normal in ourfamily.
And you know, I mean I've sincebeen told by others that, you
(05:16):
know, that Italian mindset ofthe family and together and
bringing in others, you know,wasn't uncommon, you know, in
that, in that culture, you knowso.
Then, at this date, when shetold me that, you know, because
then she went on to tell me thatthe story wasn't true, that her
mother had issues withsubstance abuse and streets and
(05:38):
was a much, you know, sadderstory than what she had been
told, so suddenly, like I said,my, my chink in the armor was
wow.
And then she said somethinglike they used to tell everyone
the same thing and I'm like,yeah, that was my story too.
And she's like, see, it wasn'ttrue.
And you know it felt like slapsacross my face, like how could
(05:59):
I have been so stupid not toeven question it, because I
really never did so.
Then we continued to talk andshe said you need to read this
book.
It's called Journey of theAdopted Self with, you know, by
Betty Jean Lyfton.
So literally after the date,after dinner, we walked down the
street to Barnes and Nobles andbought a copy of that book.
(06:19):
You know it's a, it's a wholechapter in my book when I write
about that, because it was veryshattering for me.
You know that, even though mystory was so simplistic and I
had this, this idyllic vision ofit and, you know, complete
acceptance of it, it was just me.
(06:40):
That was good.
I was just so interested indigging into this book, which is
what I did the whole next day,like that evening, and you know
I was in coffee shops and parksand sitting along train tracks
and just could not get my noseout of that book.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, I'm gonna stop us right there for just a second
because that was a lot, andwe're gonna unpack a few items
from there too for the listeners.
I think you were kind ofoperating in a shock state, a
little bit right, kind of justbe out with someone and then
learn all this stuff to includeone of the token books in our
community.
But one of the items that youmentioned as you were talking is
(07:24):
that you have a book.
Can you just go ahead and dropa little bit about?
You are an author.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Correct.
Yeah, I recently published onFather's Day, I released my book
which is called Recycled, withthe subtitle A Reluctant Search
for True Self Through Nurture,nature and Free Will.
You know, I mean, the book ispresented as I lived it, for the
best of my ability, so much sothat when I'm talking about my
(07:52):
younger years, trying toremember it with my younger
memory and my younger impression, yeah, so I'd say that the book
pretty much just journals howit occurred to me, including
this clueless, idyllic vision ofit.
And then chapter four is.
That's my first chink in thearmor, and it's called Blind
(08:12):
Sided.
I structure the book in threeparts, one being nurture, how I
was raised, all the beliefs Ihad, and then the second is
nature when I found my birthmother, my daughter was born, I
got married, I started raising afamily, all those life issues.
I find information about mybirth father, although he had
(08:34):
passed by then.
Once I find all these, when Idiscover my nurture and my
nature, then I'm left with now,what do I do Now that I have all
this information?
What do I do with it?
And that's where the free willpart comes into play.
I make a statement that I thinkit's true that I think the
(08:54):
biggest sin is ignorance, andnot so much that you're not
educated, but that you know, butyou choose to ignore it.
And I just had thisoverwhelming feeling that I
can't just ignore these thingsand go on with the status quo.
I need to tell my parents, Ineed to get this out, I need to
(09:15):
just accept it and move on.
And all the lies and deceptionskind of get in my way along
this journey to buy and own mystory completely.
And that blind date thing waswhat I would consider my first
step out of the fog.
If you will did what I thinkprobably many people do is that
(09:37):
I buried it.
I went back into the fog.
I had a brief attempt toregister on an adoption
discovery site on AOL when itwas very early on.
Then I had an experience withthat.
That just threw me even furtherand I'm like forget this, I
don't have time for this, I'mbusy with work, I don't need all
this emotional nonsense here.
(09:58):
So then I just buried it untillater.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
We're going to go back just a little bit because I
think that as you were talking,I picked up on a couple of
things that are a little bitintriguing for me.
One is after you had this blinddate, you were blindsided.
You went, you read the book,you were consumed it.
It started to consume you.
You went back to your parentsand in our previous portion of
(10:24):
this conversation you had afairly you know mild and
wonderful life with them.
You were nurtured fairly well,I would say.
How did that conversation gowith your family?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Well, actually at that point I did not have a
conversation with my family.
That didn't take place forprobably another 20 years.
Wow, you know.
So, yeah, that was.
You know, these were thingsthat I carried with me.
You know, I didn't tell anyoneabout that.
I told no one about that, Ijust held that in.
But meanwhile the wheels hadbeen greased, if you will, and
(11:01):
we're starting to turn and Idescribed that, as you know,
like my story.
I didn't really change my storyper se, other than I put a big
asterisk next to it that myparents were told that I was
German and Irish.
You know, as young nurses, youknow, nuns lie and they keep
secrets.
So they just wanted everythingto sound rosy, so I just went
(11:22):
along with it, but it slowlyhaunted in the background.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Well, and you also mentioned then you know how the
lies were starting to get in theway, and so I'm marrying that
with you were haunted in thebackground, and now you've
connected for almost 20 years.
From that that entry point, howdid you manage through kind of
just the overall every day Wasit daily for you?
Was it weekly?
(11:45):
Was it monthly?
Processing, reprocessing,trying to figure out what to do
next?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I would say it not daily, not weekly, perhaps
monthly, but selective.
You know that someone were tosay, oh, you know we were
thinking about adoption, then Iwould be more likely and open to
say I was adopted.
I really I buried it deep.
I mean, I can, I cancompartmentalize, you know, and
I can, I can go into doctor modeor daddy mode or whatever and
(12:15):
completely ignore my ownthoughts or my own, just just
soldier on, so to speak.
You know it really didn't.
You know, during the between,you know I said between that
date and between when I gotmarried and when my wife was
pregnant, I kind of not much hadchanged.
You know there was an asterisknext to my story and I just
bought it.
But I was like I was stillunder the belief that, you know,
(12:38):
the courts wouldn't let me lookanyways, so why bother?
And some of it was my motherprobably doesn't want to see me
anyways, why do I want to botherher?
She probably has a family.
There were thoughts like thatgoing on.
I don't know that it reallyaffected me so much.
And then you know I got married, yeah, married in 04.
My wife, my daughter, was bornin 05.
She started with the don't youwant to find your real mother.
(13:01):
And I was like no.
And she's like what about yourbirth hit?
You're about your medicalhistory, don't you want to know
your medical history?
I'm like no, I'm healthy.
So what about the kids?
Either the child, don't youthink the baby should know their
history?
I'm like no, they're gonna knowme.
And she kind of persisted tothe point where I was like a
little snippet and I was like no, I don't, I don't want to know.
(13:24):
And then it continued andeventually she said, well, if I
get the paperwork and fill itout, will you sign it?
So I was like sure, that's fine, I'm like, but you're never
gonna find her.
They're never gonna.
You know, it's never gonna work.
So then my daughter was born.
It was my daughter was probablytwo years old when I finally
got a call from the state sayingthat they had found my, my
(13:48):
request, my paperwork, and thatthey had some leads and they're
gonna let me know.
And Literally three days laterthey called back and said here's
your mother's name, here's herphone number, her address or
email.
She sounds normal, she'slooking forward to hearing from
you.
And that was that.
You know, I mean it wasn't youknow.
(14:09):
I mean I think I was, you know,here in the stories.
I was lucky she was open and youknow it was welcoming.
There was no secondaryrejection at that point and you
know I was very on the surface Ithink, very just cool with it.
I'm like, oh, but meanwhile thewheels spinning in the
background and you know I'm like, yeah, this would be great.
(14:30):
Yeah, it was cool, we had agreat conversation.
It was wonderful.
Yeah, she's, you know.
I mean we ended up meeting andand had regular for meetings and
she met the kids and Wouldvisit to our house and we would
see her at Thanksgiving.
I mean it.
You know, it was fine up untilMother's Day of that year that
we first met.
When she said something like,hey, happy Mother's Day from
(14:50):
your other mother, and then Iwent down the drain of major
league.
I couldn't back up fast enough.
Our emails were shorter, theyweren't as intimate and I was
just like I Already got a mother, I don't need another one.
I felt as though I was cheatingon my mother in a way.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I can only speak of my own experience.
I would say, probably fourmonths in of the few months that
I had, when my birth motherwould say things like I love you
.
It freaked me out every timeand it wasn't because I didn't
believe she had love for me, itjust it just didn't feel
(15:28):
Comfortable, if that makes sense.
So I'm sure that's a little bitof what you were experiencing,
just that super uncomfortable,like ooh, that's, that's not
what I know.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, and I think you know in retrospect, a lot of
that people pleasing capacityand tendency was Was very
prominent.
So, you know, when I met her,of course I was gonna be
welcoming, of course I was gonnabe friendly, or, in my moments
of silence, just like, you know,trying to Trying to picture
(16:02):
this, you know what I, what Icall the.
You know, the steel door thatkept the past from the present
and who would I have been kindof thing during that revelation
was also my paperwork from thestate.
You know I got the courttranscript from when she
relinquished her rights to meand the judge addressed her.
(16:23):
You know I use your name, joyce.
Yes, sir, are you the mother ofthis Negro child?
And I was like Negro child,who's a Negro child, you know?
And then it turns out she'slike, yeah, I think you know
your father was, was light skin,some people thought he was
black, some people thought hemight have been Indian or, you
know, middle Eastern or maybeItalian.
(16:44):
You know he was.
Turns out the whole family wasall the colors of the rainbow,
if you will, some very dark,some very light, but all the
same parents for me.
That moment of Wow, when thatmoment happened.
I say that my, my innerbrainstem was like, yeah, we
knew that.
You know, there was some sensethat that wasn't a surprise to
(17:04):
me that I had someAfrican-American tendencies in
me.
You know I'm not fully butnumber of reasons so really
didn't surprise me or say it wasmore.
Just like this I'm not Italiananymore, I'm not a Rocco anymore
.
So I went from having animmigrant ship bring me here
that immigrant ship story tohaving a Mayflower insider.
(17:28):
You know settler pilgrim Storyand I've also got this slave
ship story.
So it's like massive confusionon those ones.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I Almost sometimes think of that as a little bit of
a crisis of ethnicity identity.
I also grew up thinking myheritage was my family's
heritage.
Why wouldn't I that?
Those were the stories that Iknew?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, totally, you know, and it was something that
we were very proud of and, Ithink, rightfully so.
You know, I mean, I don't.
I don't have any problem withpeople being proud of their
Heritage, as long as it doesn'tinterfere on others rights and
privileges.
You know, and he was.
You know where I grew up, inErie, pennsylvania, it was also
there were a lot of Italians.
It was.
It wasn't, you know, we weren't, we weren't unusual.
(18:17):
The mayor was Italian, everyonewas Italian.
You know, I mean, it was.
You had the festivals, we hungout with Italians.
It was.
You know, it was perfectly fine.
And I think it's around thattime where I started having
those feelings of.
You know, I always was a littledifferent.
You know, even though I was, itwas never something that I
thought of as being related toadoption, it was always just I
(18:38):
was a little different.
My family was just a whole, awhole menagerie of characters.
So weird wasn't weird in myfamily.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I do.
I was just gonna say Individualidentity wasn't an issue in
your, in your family, from whatit sounds like.
Yeah Well, tell us a little bitabout how you started to
rebuild yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I would say, you know , my rebuilding, I think, really
took place after my separationand divorce because I, once
again, I just lived in this.
You know, with this new bit ofinformation, I had no interest
in finding my father.
I, I kind of backstep from mymother, my birth mother, settled
into something.
We'd see each other maybe oncea year, maybe not, and then we
(19:20):
separated and a lot of it wasclearly related to these inner
workings.
You know Of this wasn't eventhe person I was meant to be
married to.
You know like my life has beenand so altered and twisted, and
you know I said almost anobsession with this, this past
(19:42):
life that didn't exist, thatdidn't happen.
You know what, if, what, if,what, if and I think it did, you
know, really contribute to alot of the deterioration of the
marriage.
And I was busy with work andjust never addressed any issues,
never talked about it, justjust went on, just go through
once again.
And I think guys do that.
(20:03):
I think male reaction andfemale reaction is different.
I wasn't angry, I wasn't, I waslike whatever, it's what it is,
and I just got to work tomorrowand cloud the driveway and do
what I got to do, and.
But then I said, when theseparation and the divorce
happened, and separation first,you know, I found myself, you
know, alone thinking and I'mlike I need to find my father's.
(20:26):
So then that's when I did that.
And then, you know, turns outthat, you know, absolutely, he
was african-american, noquestion.
I met cousins, I met uncles, Imet the family, I learned about
them and, like I said, there was, there were some members of the
family who lived their wholelives as white.
(20:47):
They were able to pass.
They were light enough.
I heard a story recently thatwhen one passed they, they
called the, the funeral director, to go identify the body, what
not?
They had been estranged for awhile and when they showed up
the undertaker was like oh, I'msorry, this, this is not your
brother, this guy is white.
And he's like no, that's ourbrother.
(21:07):
You know, and I said so, someof them lived their lives as
white.
Others were darker skinned.
They, you know, the one was ablack panther during the sixties
.
So it went the whole gamut from.
You know, civil rights, radical,black panther, whatever you
want to cut, you know, just,civil rights movement strong.
I got a photo of my firstgrandmother leaning on Muhammad
(21:30):
Ali's knee, you know, at one ofhis training camps and you see
those things and you know,you're like, wow, that's putting
me in my family, right next toMartin Luther and Malcolm X and
the whole civil rights movementand black panthers, and suddenly
you're like that's a part of meas well, you know.
So then I mean putting myselfback together, first included
(21:53):
learning about all that.
You know, I mean I read JamesBaldwin's book, you know, go
tell it on the mountain.
I read w e the brah.
I read, you know, frederickDouglass.
I mean I'm I love to read, Iusually do audio books and you
know I really immersed myself ina lot of the African American
culture just to understand it,to understand me, and I think a
(22:14):
lot of it was, you know when Iwould, would see something, you
know, I would hear about thescotsboro boys or something, and
it made me look it up, suddenlymade a difference to me and I
wanted to learn more I'm goingto rewind quite a bit and what
I'm going to ask next is duringsome of your dialogue, just in
the last few minutes, youmentioned the gender component
(22:37):
of your response.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Can you expand on that a little bit, do you?
I think you mentioned menprocess, maybe just a little bit
different than than females,and I'm intrigued by that
comment.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, I think it's definitely true.
I think, you know, whatever thereason, and you know we could
have theories on it, but I think, in general, you know, men are
more, you know, dominant innature, physical in nature,
whether it be athletic or youknow, the, the masculine Persona
, if you will, is not going toshow weakness.
(23:11):
You know it's showing strengthat all times, whether that be,
you know, rousing one another.
You know, or you know, my sonand I, he's always getting me in
arm bars and holds and it'sjust always a physical, you know
, to come out and say, you know,oh, I'm having feelings about
this identity, or about thisadoption thing, about this race
(23:32):
thing, I'm having feelings aboutthem.
I Don't have time for feelings.
I was busy, I had stuff to do.
I was, you know, I was in oneof the busiest practices in
central Pennsylvania.
It was a cage match oforthopedic surgeons, you know,
trying to produce and trying tobe busy and taking call, and I
mean it's a very macho,dominated, male dominated
(23:57):
profession and friends wanted tohear about my colleagues,
wanted to hear about my Feelingsand you know even my, my, you
know, wife, she wanted to hearthe good Rosie thing.
She didn't want to hear my, mydoubts and questions about it.
So it just stayed inside and itdidn't come out, it just I just
lived with it.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do you think that's common in the adoption community
with males, that there's a somekindred Spirits may be out
there with you that feel thatway or haven't made it to the
comfort level of discussingAdoption, or theirs, very
specifically?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh, absolutely, and I think you know, I mean, I have
a group of guys that I hang outwith online.
You know, we actually formed a,a Facebook page of, you know,
of male adoptees, which I thinkis great, and you know a lot of
it we always laugh about.
Men are from Mars and women arefrom Venus, you know.
And husbands reactions to theirwives, you know, but why?
(24:53):
You know.
Your wife or girlfriend comesto you and says she's having a
problem.
The first thing you want to dois, oh, we can solve that, you
know, here's all we got to do.
Well, don't dismiss my feelings.
I know I get your feelings, butlet's solve the problem.
I don't want you to solve theproblem, I just want you to
listen to me.
I mean, you get back and forthinto this.
I mean it just is, you know,when it's men, together, it is
(25:14):
we're looking for a solution,we're looking for how to fix
this thing or how to identify itor categorize it.
I mean it's, it's the proactive, in a way, a proactive approach
of, well, you know, notnecessarily get over it, but get
through it, whereas I think alot of the, you know, the female
gathers comfort from each otherand sharing the stories and
(25:37):
sharing the.
You know, you can explain thattendency to me, that you want to
bond and and you want to, youknow, share and Be a part of it,
not necessarily solve it per se.
You want to just feel it andunderstand each other first, or
just just share that, thoseemotions, whereas men don't want
to share the emotions.
(25:57):
They want to fix the problem,if you will, you know yeah, I
think that's a great characterCharacterization.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I can only speak for myself.
I don't really have a lot oftendency to fix everybody.
So there's that and I like tojust hear that.
Others have been there andmaybe I can learn from it.
I would say that's probably apretty common theme amongst
myself and my Adoptive friendsthat I talked to on a regular
(26:24):
and I would say we have a littlebit of an emotional connection
to family.
I've not experienced this, Ionly know what others have told
me.
But those emotions have atendency to ramp up when they've
had children.
It changes right.
A lot changes as we grow and aswe age and.
But I am infinitely intriguedabout how quiet my words, how
(26:50):
quiet the male adoptee communitySometimes appears to be in
relationship to these types ofconversations.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, and you know we all comment on it.
I mean there's I think we have30 members in our group right
now.
They're all solid, all solidcharacters.
Really, you know good guys andI don't want to start mentioning
any of them because I'm there,all impressive to me.
You know, in different ways,very different.
You know not the same, but Ithink we do.
We do share, and you know wemay not talk as much on our
(27:23):
pages.
You know you may have a coupleposts here and there, someone to
throw out, something, someonewill add to it, but it's not a
deluge of, you know, a damnbreaking of Emotions on the page
and you know there's somejoking and and some, you know,
some funny memes and, and youknow it's.
It's definitely a different, adifferent feel, but I think it's
(27:44):
something that you know malesfeel more comfortable with yeah,
I definitely can imagine that,that there is that Component to
it.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Well, let's talk a little bit.
You've mentioned, or touched onit, connection to the community
.
I do know a little bit aboutthat group and I I'm extremely
excited for that group and Ihope it grows very rapidly.
I think it'll be nothing but abenefit.
So kudos to all of you that arelistening in there, that are a
part of that group.
(28:12):
I just think it's a great thing.
But if you don't mind, let's goahead and dive into kind of
connecting to the communitybeyond the group and what that,
what that means to you.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, I think it's.
I think it's huge, I think it's.
You know, my first contact waswith Michael Rocco.
He goes Michael Rocco's his,his name, and in adoption
community and it justcoincidental that his, his birth
, birth last name was my adoptedlast name.
So when I got an Instagram postthat says you may know Michael
(28:47):
Rocco, and I see this mention ofadoption and I'm like, wait a
minute, who's michael rocco?
And then it says like well, mymichael rocco was my birth name,
and I'm like, oh crap, is thislike my father's son?
Is this my uncle's son?
Who's this?
Is this a mysterious rocco thatbelongs in our family?
And it turns out, no, you know,I mean, he was just, it was
(29:09):
just a coincidental name.
But we started talking andeventually started doing some
podcast episodes and you know alot of phone conversations.
He was much more um, I'm notgoing to go into his story, but
he had a much, much moredifficult time with his family,
bonding with them and connectingwith them and a lot of things
that have of us.
But you know, he would say, youknow, jack, we couldn't be more
(29:31):
different.
But we get each other.
You know, I think as we'vegotten to know each other.
I think we're less and lessdifferent and I find that, with
so many adoptees that you know,you look on the surface and
you're like, oh, I'm nothinglike that person, or they're so
much more of this, so much morethat than I am, um, but then
(29:51):
once you get down to their basicmessage, their basic feelings,
the core issues are the same.
It's lack of control, it's lackof belonging, it's lack of, you
know, knowledge.
It's feeling is the outsider.
You know all the things thatyou know, the fundamental core
issues that most adoptees have,but it ends up being, whether
it's a person you know, whetherit's a personality thing,
(30:13):
whether it's a nature thing,whether it's a nurture thing,
like how they react to thosefeelings, or is it a free will
thing, how they choose to reactto these things.
You know that that pulls themin one direction and pulled me
in a different direction orpulled someone else in a third
direction.
So, you know, I mean it's beenhugely helpful for me to get
(30:33):
into the community and and hearand listen, whether I
participate or not.
I appreciate the content andit's also kind of flattering or
humbling that people are comingto me and I'm you know, I'm a
newbie here.
I'm uh, you know I kind of Idid it for me, I didn't do it
for anyone else.
You know, I said I wrote thebook first for me, second for my
(30:55):
kids and third, if there'sanyone else who's interested,
fine, you know, and it's.
It's been flattering that thenumber of other people
interested has been so many andso enthusiastic yeah, I think
that's a positive of thecommunity I do want to touch on.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
There is a significant amount of benefit
even when we do stuff locally,because we never know who's been
touched or who might need amoment, or they are waiting to
find the person that helps themrelate.
We just never know yeah, you'reright.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I mean, there's so many opportunities, so many
people still feel like there'sno resources available.
And there's plenty of resourcesavailable.
But they're, you know, almostin a dark underground, you know,
just amongst the dot, these notreally released to the general
public.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
If you will, so, so willingly well, I agree with you
and I think that those arereally key points, and so I want
to do a couple of things.
I want to give a shout out.
You've mentioned him a coupletimes.
He's been a guest here on thisshow as well, and that is fred
necora, and his book is forbudin roots, and so, uh, we'll
shamelessly plug him as well inthis episode, because he's come
(32:08):
up a couple different times inyour dialogue and he has a great
story for those of you thathave not had a chance to listen
to that episode or read his book.
And then, as we're closing outhere, jack, let's just talk
about again your book, which iscalled recycled, and it's in, I
believe you said, three parts.
It tackles the nurture side, alittle bit of your nature side,
(32:34):
and then your free will and therebuild of yourself.
Do I have that correct?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
yes, I think that's a good summary.
I always say that.
If you want to read the 32ndversion of my book, you just
read the quote at the beginningof each point.
In the nurture section I quotebenjamin disraeli I think he was
a president of israel and hesays nurture your mind with good
thoughts, because from theheroic comes, creates heroes.
(33:01):
And I would say that was verymuch my upbringing, just very
idyllic, just the stories youknow, creating heroes and be
strong.
Part two is nature comes fromrembrandt and it is have only
one master, nature.
And then part three is a quotestarts that that's the thing
about free will every choice forone thing is a choice against
(33:26):
another.
So I think to me sums up thefeeling of the book that raised
to be this heroic figure and Ithink I did the best I could,
you know, trying toprofessionally achieve and be a
pleaser and everything.
And then when I learned mynature, it's like that was
(33:46):
really the master all along wasmy nature.
And now I'm stuck in thisconundrum of who do I choose?
Do I choose my nurture?
Do I choose my nature?
Can they live cohesivelytogether or will they forever be
at odds, forever battling oneanother, of who I was, who I
should have been, who I am, whoI could have been, and how do I
(34:08):
merge all those in the onecohesive life.
But I think it's.
It's challenging.
I try to.
I'm not going to give you theanswer at the end of the book
because I want to leave a littleteaser, but I I come to a
conclusion for me that has beenhelpful for me.
I won't apologize for it, it's,it's what, what has helped me.
I do try to live that.
(34:28):
I do try to as difficult as itis but as long of a story as it
is, to come up with the ending.
I think it's important to meand I think it has helped me and
hopefully to help others.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Well, that sounds great.
It has been a fantasticconversation with you today here
on the podcast, jack, and Ijust want to say thank you so
much for joining us and openingup to other adoptees, but also
opening up as a gentleman in ourcommunity, and I hope that it
encourages other gentlemen aswell to kind of get out there
(35:03):
and start telling their storiesso that there is a well-rounded
perspective on on these things.
So I just want to say thank youagain for coming on the show
today.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Oh, thank you so much .
It's.
It's really been a pleasure.
I'm honored to be able to shareand flattering, so thank you so
much.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadoptedcom.
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2 (00:11):
Yeah, I think it's huge.
I think it's.
You know, my first contact waswith Michael Rocco.
He goes.
Michael Rocco is his name inadoption community and it just
coincidental that his birth lastname was my adopted last name.
Speaker 1 (00:37):
Welcome everybody to today's episode.
With me.
I have adoptee Jack Rocco MD,and he's here to talk a little
bit about his adoption story,some of the great things that
have come of that experience andhis take and how he tackles
life in general, and so withthat I'm going to hand it over
(01:01):
to Jack Welcome.
Speaker 2 (01:02):
Thank you so much.
I appreciate your interest andopportunity to share with you
today.
I guess I am one of the luckyones.
As far as you know, early on inmy life I felt I lived a very
blessed life.
I think I had a great familyand the adoption line story was
(01:28):
presented to me, like it was tomany people, as you know, this
is a blessing.
You were chosen.
You know many.
You know I remember my mothersitting you on the bed and
saying you know, some peoplejust get babies because they
have babies.
But you know we chose you, wewanted you and you know I mean I
felt that and I didn't reallyhave any.
(01:50):
You know major issues.
I think growing up we were avery close knit Italian family.
My grandfather immigrated fromItaly, so my father was first
generation, I was second and youknow that included basically
four families.
You know each of mygrandparents had four kids and
(02:11):
each of the four kids all movedwithin a two block radius of
each other.
And you know every holiday,every birthday, christmas, you
know the family was all togetherwith all the kids and we were
constantly playing in mygrandparents backyard and having
dinners and birthdays.
So it was great.
I mean, I really have, you know, not any unusual upbringing
(02:37):
stories related to, you know,related to adoption.
I felt like I fit in well withthe family, you know, and never,
never, questioned it.
I think my first you know what Icall my first chink in the
armor, if you will happened whenI was in residency.
You know I did well in school.
I went to, you know, undergradwas the first, first of my
(03:00):
family, to go to college andthen, you know, accepted into
medical school and it was inresidency.
I was probably 30 years old.
I had a blind date and on thisdate we were having a normal
conversation and I asked hersomething about you know, what?
About your parents?
And she said well, that'sinteresting because I was
adopted.
(03:20):
You know, that clearly struck achord with me and, you know, I
was still trying to be cuteabout it and, you know, asked
her the question that everyonealways asked me is you know, did
you ever want to find your realparents?
And I was expecting her to say,no, she had a good family and
everything was great like it wasfor me.
That was, that was my cannedresponse, and then she said,
(03:45):
well, actually it's interestingbecause the story that my
parents were told wasn't true,you know, and she basically
ended up telling me my exactsame story about how her, you
know.
She was told that her parentswere two young college kids who
got pregnant and couldn't affordto have a baby, so they decided
to give it away to a goodfamily so she could be raised
(04:07):
properly, which was, word forword, what I had been told.
Speaker 1 (04:13):
I think I want to go back just a couple of steps too.
So that was a chink in thearmor, and what are the odds?
I mean, in all honesty, what doyou suppose the odds are?
That you would meet someone, goout with them, have a random
conversation and they'd go.
Yeah, I'm adopted too.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah, I mean it was.
You know I miss that.
I was 30 years old.
I'd like to consider myself atthat point in time fairly.
I don't know about worldly, butyou know I'd moved away from
home, you know, to Pittsburghand then Philadelphia, and I
felt I was, you know, I had itall together, but I never had
really met anyone that Ipersonally had a conversation
(04:55):
with it about.
You know, my sister and Ireally never talked about it.
You know we were just it wasaccepted Actually had an older
uncle who was adopted as well.
You know, and you know so it wassomething that was just, you
know, almost normal in ourfamily.
And you know, I mean I've sincebeen told by others that, you
(05:16):
know, that Italian mindset ofthe family and together and
bringing in others, you know,wasn't uncommon, you know, in
that, in that culture, you knowso.
Then, at this date, when shetold me that, you know, because
then she went on to tell me thatthe story wasn't true, that her
mother had issues withsubstance abuse and streets and
(05:38):
was a much, you know, sadderstory than what she had been
told, so suddenly, like I said,my, my chink in the armor was
wow.
And then she said somethinglike they used to tell everyone
the same thing and I'm like,yeah, that was my story too.
And she's like, see, it wasn'ttrue.
And you know it felt like slapsacross my face, like how could
(05:59):
I have been so stupid not toeven question it, because I
really never did so.
Then we continued to talk andshe said you need to read this
book.
It's called Journey of theAdopted Self with, you know, by
Betty Jean Lyfton.
So literally after the date,after dinner, we walked down the
street to Barnes and Nobles andbought a copy of that book.
(06:19):
You know it's a, it's a wholechapter in my book when I write
about that, because it was veryshattering for me.
You know that, even though mystory was so simplistic and I
had this, this idyllic vision ofit and, you know, complete
acceptance of it, it was just me.
(06:40):
That was good.
I was just so interested indigging into this book, which is
what I did the whole next day,like that evening, and you know
I was in coffee shops and parksand sitting along train tracks
and just could not get my noseout of that book.
Speaker 1 (07:00):
Well, I'm gonna stop us right there for just a second
because that was a lot, andwe're gonna unpack a few items
from there too for the listeners.
I think you were kind ofoperating in a shock state, a
little bit right, kind of justbe out with someone and then
learn all this stuff to includeone of the token books in our
community.
But one of the items that youmentioned as you were talking is
(07:24):
that you have a book.
Can you just go ahead and dropa little bit about?
You are an author.
Speaker 2 (07:31):
Correct.
Yeah, I recently published onFather's Day, I released my book
which is called Recycled, withthe subtitle A Reluctant Search
for True Self Through Nurture,nature and Free Will.
You know, I mean, the book ispresented as I lived it, for the
best of my ability, so much sothat when I'm talking about my
(07:52):
younger years, trying toremember it with my younger
memory and my younger impression, yeah, so I'd say that the book
pretty much just journals howit occurred to me, including
this clueless, idyllic vision ofit.
And then chapter four is.
That's my first chink in thearmor, and it's called Blind
(08:12):
Sided.
I structure the book in threeparts, one being nurture, how I
was raised, all the beliefs Ihad, and then the second is
nature when I found my birthmother, my daughter was born, I
got married, I started raising afamily, all those life issues.
I find information about mybirth father, although he had
(08:34):
passed by then.
Once I find all these, when Idiscover my nurture and my
nature, then I'm left with now,what do I do Now that I have all
this information?
What do I do with it?
And that's where the free willpart comes into play.
I make a statement that I thinkit's true that I think the
(08:54):
biggest sin is ignorance, andnot so much that you're not
educated, but that you know, butyou choose to ignore it.
And I just had thisoverwhelming feeling that I
can't just ignore these thingsand go on with the status quo.
I need to tell my parents, Ineed to get this out, I need to
(09:15):
just accept it and move on.
And all the lies and deceptionskind of get in my way along
this journey to buy and own mystory completely.
And that blind date thing waswhat I would consider my first
step out of the fog.
If you will did what I thinkprobably many people do is that
(09:37):
I buried it.
I went back into the fog.
I had a brief attempt toregister on an adoption
discovery site on AOL when itwas very early on.
Then I had an experience withthat.
That just threw me even furtherand I'm like forget this, I
don't have time for this, I'mbusy with work, I don't need all
this emotional nonsense here.
(09:58):
So then I just buried it untillater.
Speaker 1 (10:00):
We're going to go back just a little bit because I
think that as you were talking,I picked up on a couple of
things that are a little bitintriguing for me.
One is after you had this blinddate, you were blindsided.
You went, you read the book,you were consumed it.
It started to consume you.
You went back to your parentsand in our previous portion of
(10:24):
this conversation you had afairly you know mild and
wonderful life with them.
You were nurtured fairly well,I would say.
How did that conversation gowith your family?
Speaker 2 (10:37):
Well, actually at that point I did not have a
conversation with my family.
That didn't take place forprobably another 20 years.
Wow, you know.
So, yeah, that was.
You know, these were thingsthat I carried with me.
You know, I didn't tell anyoneabout that.
I told no one about that, Ijust held that in.
But meanwhile the wheels hadbeen greased, if you will, and
(11:01):
we're starting to turn and Idescribed that, as you know,
like my story.
I didn't really change my storyper se, other than I put a big
asterisk next to it that myparents were told that I was
German and Irish.
You know, as young nurses, youknow, nuns lie and they keep
secrets.
So they just wanted everythingto sound rosy, so I just went
(11:22):
along with it, but it slowlyhaunted in the background.
Speaker 1 (11:25):
Well, and you also mentioned then you know how the
lies were starting to get in theway, and so I'm marrying that
with you were haunted in thebackground, and now you've
connected for almost 20 years.
From that that entry point, howdid you manage through kind of
just the overall every day Wasit daily for you?
Was it weekly?
(11:45):
Was it monthly?
Processing, reprocessing,trying to figure out what to do
next?
Speaker 2 (11:51):
I would say it not daily, not weekly, perhaps
monthly, but selective.
You know that someone were tosay, oh, you know we were
thinking about adoption, then Iwould be more likely and open to
say I was adopted.
I really I buried it deep.
I mean, I can, I cancompartmentalize, you know, and
I can, I can go into doctor modeor daddy mode or whatever and
(12:15):
completely ignore my ownthoughts or my own, just just
soldier on, so to speak.
You know it really didn't.
You know, during the between,you know I said between that
date and between when I gotmarried and when my wife was
pregnant, I kind of not much hadchanged.
You know there was an asterisknext to my story and I just
bought it.
But I was like I was stillunder the belief that, you know,
(12:38):
the courts wouldn't let me lookanyways, so why bother?
And some of it was my motherprobably doesn't want to see me
anyways, why do I want to botherher?
She probably has a family.
There were thoughts like thatgoing on.
I don't know that it reallyaffected me so much.
And then you know I got married, yeah, married in 04.
My wife, my daughter, was bornin 05.
She started with the don't youwant to find your real mother.
(13:01):
And I was like no.
And she's like what about yourbirth hit?
You're about your medicalhistory, don't you want to know
your medical history?
I'm like no, I'm healthy.
So what about the kids?
Either the child, don't youthink the baby should know their
history?
I'm like no, they're gonna knowme.
And she kind of persisted tothe point where I was like a
little snippet and I was like no, I don't, I don't want to know.
(13:24):
And then it continued andeventually she said, well, if I
get the paperwork and fill itout, will you sign it?
So I was like sure, that's fine, I'm like, but you're never
gonna find her.
They're never gonna.
You know, it's never gonna work.
So then my daughter was born.
It was my daughter was probablytwo years old when I finally
got a call from the state sayingthat they had found my, my
(13:48):
request, my paperwork, and thatthey had some leads and they're
gonna let me know.
And Literally three days laterthey called back and said here's
your mother's name, here's herphone number, her address or
email.
She sounds normal, she'slooking forward to hearing from
you.
And that was that.
You know, I mean it wasn't youknow.
(14:09):
I mean I think I was, you know,here in the stories.
I was lucky she was open and youknow it was welcoming.
There was no secondaryrejection at that point and you
know I was very on the surface Ithink, very just cool with it.
I'm like, oh, but meanwhile thewheels spinning in the
background and you know I'm like, yeah, this would be great.
(14:30):
Yeah, it was cool, we had agreat conversation.
It was wonderful.
Yeah, she's, you know.
I mean we ended up meeting andand had regular for meetings and
she met the kids and Wouldvisit to our house and we would
see her at Thanksgiving.
I mean it.
You know, it was fine up untilMother's Day of that year that
we first met.
When she said something like,hey, happy Mother's Day from
(14:50):
your other mother, and then Iwent down the drain of major
league.
I couldn't back up fast enough.
Our emails were shorter, theyweren't as intimate and I was
just like I Already got a mother, I don't need another one.
I felt as though I was cheatingon my mother in a way.
Speaker 1 (15:08):
I can only speak of my own experience.
I would say, probably fourmonths in of the few months that
I had, when my birth motherwould say things like I love you
.
It freaked me out every timeand it wasn't because I didn't
believe she had love for me, itjust it just didn't feel
(15:28):
Comfortable, if that makes sense.
So I'm sure that's a little bitof what you were experiencing,
just that super uncomfortable,like ooh, that's, that's not
what I know.
Speaker 2 (15:41):
Yeah, and I think you know in retrospect, a lot of
that people pleasing capacityand tendency was Was very
prominent.
So, you know, when I met her,of course I was gonna be
welcoming, of course I was gonnabe friendly, or, in my moments
of silence, just like, you know,trying to Trying to picture
(16:02):
this, you know what I, what Icall the.
You know, the steel door thatkept the past from the present
and who would I have been kindof thing during that revelation
was also my paperwork from thestate.
You know I got the courttranscript from when she
relinquished her rights to meand the judge addressed her.
(16:23):
You know I use your name, joyce.
Yes, sir, are you the mother ofthis Negro child?
And I was like Negro child,who's a Negro child, you know?
And then it turns out she'slike, yeah, I think you know
your father was, was light skin,some people thought he was
black, some people thought hemight have been Indian or, you
know, middle Eastern or maybeItalian.
(16:44):
You know he was.
Turns out the whole family wasall the colors of the rainbow,
if you will, some very dark,some very light, but all the
same parents for me.
That moment of Wow, when thatmoment happened.
I say that my, my innerbrainstem was like, yeah, we
knew that.
You know, there was some sensethat that wasn't a surprise to
(17:04):
me that I had someAfrican-American tendencies in
me.
You know I'm not fully butnumber of reasons so really
didn't surprise me or say it wasmore.
Just like this I'm not Italiananymore, I'm not a Rocco anymore
.
So I went from having animmigrant ship bring me here
that immigrant ship story tohaving a Mayflower insider.
(17:28):
You know settler pilgrim Storyand I've also got this slave
ship story.
So it's like massive confusionon those ones.
Speaker 1 (17:40):
I Almost sometimes think of that as a little bit of
a crisis of ethnicity identity.
I also grew up thinking myheritage was my family's
heritage.
Why wouldn't I that?
Those were the stories that Iknew?
Speaker 2 (17:54):
Yeah, totally, you know, and it was something that
we were very proud of and, Ithink, rightfully so.
You know, I mean, I don't.
I don't have any problem withpeople being proud of their
Heritage, as long as it doesn'tinterfere on others rights and
privileges.
You know, and he was.
You know where I grew up, inErie, pennsylvania, it was also
there were a lot of Italians.
It was.
It wasn't, you know, we weren't, we weren't unusual.
(18:17):
The mayor was Italian, everyonewas Italian.
You know, I mean, it was.
You had the festivals, we hungout with Italians.
It was.
You know, it was perfectly fine.
And I think it's around thattime where I started having
those feelings of.
You know, I always was a littledifferent.
You know, even though I was, itwas never something that I
thought of as being related toadoption, it was always just I
(18:38):
was a little different.
My family was just a whole, awhole menagerie of characters.
So weird wasn't weird in myfamily.
You know what I mean.
Speaker 1 (18:48):
I do.
I was just gonna say Individualidentity wasn't an issue in
your, in your family, from whatit sounds like.
Yeah Well, tell us a little bitabout how you started to
rebuild yourself.
Speaker 2 (19:00):
I would say, you know , my rebuilding, I think, really
took place after my separationand divorce because I, once
again, I just lived in this.
You know, with this new bit ofinformation, I had no interest
in finding my father.
I, I kind of backstep from mymother, my birth mother, settled
into something.
We'd see each other maybe oncea year, maybe not, and then we
(19:20):
separated and a lot of it wasclearly related to these inner
workings.
You know Of this wasn't eventhe person I was meant to be
married to.
You know like my life has beenand so altered and twisted, and
you know I said almost anobsession with this, this past
(19:42):
life that didn't exist, thatdidn't happen.
You know what, if, what, if,what, if and I think it did, you
know, really contribute to alot of the deterioration of the
marriage.
And I was busy with work andjust never addressed any issues,
never talked about it, justjust went on, just go through
once again.
And I think guys do that.
(20:03):
I think male reaction andfemale reaction is different.
I wasn't angry, I wasn't, I waslike whatever, it's what it is,
and I just got to work tomorrowand cloud the driveway and do
what I got to do, and.
But then I said, when theseparation and the divorce
happened, and separation first,you know, I found myself, you
know, alone thinking and I'mlike I need to find my father's.
(20:26):
So then that's when I did that.
And then, you know, turns outthat, you know, absolutely, he
was african-american, noquestion.
I met cousins, I met uncles, Imet the family, I learned about
them and, like I said, there was, there were some members of the
family who lived their wholelives as white.
(20:47):
They were able to pass.
They were light enough.
I heard a story recently thatwhen one passed they, they
called the, the funeral director, to go identify the body, what
not?
They had been estranged for awhile and when they showed up
the undertaker was like oh, I'msorry, this, this is not your
brother, this guy is white.
And he's like no, that's ourbrother.
(21:07):
You know, and I said so, someof them lived their lives as
white.
Others were darker skinned.
They, you know, the one was ablack panther during the sixties
.
So it went the whole gamut from.
You know, civil rights, radical,black panther, whatever you
want to cut, you know, just,civil rights movement strong.
I got a photo of my firstgrandmother leaning on Muhammad
(21:30):
Ali's knee, you know, at one ofhis training camps and you see
those things and you know,you're like, wow, that's putting
me in my family, right next toMartin Luther and Malcolm X and
the whole civil rights movementand black panthers, and suddenly
you're like that's a part of meas well, you know.
So then I mean putting myselfback together, first included
(21:53):
learning about all that.
You know, I mean I read JamesBaldwin's book, you know, go
tell it on the mountain.
I read w e the brah.
I read, you know, frederickDouglass.
I mean I'm I love to read, Iusually do audio books and you
know I really immersed myself ina lot of the African American
culture just to understand it,to understand me, and I think a
(22:14):
lot of it was, you know when Iwould, would see something, you
know, I would hear about thescotsboro boys or something, and
it made me look it up, suddenlymade a difference to me and I
wanted to learn more I'm goingto rewind quite a bit and what
I'm going to ask next is duringsome of your dialogue, just in
the last few minutes, youmentioned the gender component
(22:37):
of your response.
Speaker 1 (22:39):
Can you expand on that a little bit, do you?
I think you mentioned menprocess, maybe just a little bit
different than than females,and I'm intrigued by that
comment.
Speaker 2 (22:50):
Yeah, I think it's definitely true.
I think, you know, whatever thereason, and you know we could
have theories on it, but I think, in general, you know, men are
more, you know, dominant innature, physical in nature,
whether it be athletic or youknow, the, the masculine Persona
, if you will, is not going toshow weakness.
(23:11):
You know it's showing strengthat all times, whether that be,
you know, rousing one another.
You know, or you know, my sonand I, he's always getting me in
arm bars and holds and it'sjust always a physical, you know
, to come out and say, you know,oh, I'm having feelings about
this identity, or about thisadoption thing, about this race
(23:32):
thing, I'm having feelings aboutthem.
I Don't have time for feelings.
I was busy, I had stuff to do.
I was, you know, I was in oneof the busiest practices in
central Pennsylvania.
It was a cage match oforthopedic surgeons, you know,
trying to produce and trying tobe busy and taking call, and I
mean it's a very macho,dominated, male dominated
(23:57):
profession and friends wanted tohear about my colleagues,
wanted to hear about my Feelingsand you know even my, my, you
know, wife, she wanted to hearthe good Rosie thing.
She didn't want to hear my, mydoubts and questions about it.
So it just stayed inside and itdidn't come out, it just I just
lived with it.
Speaker 1 (24:16):
Do you think that's common in the adoption community
with males, that there's a somekindred Spirits may be out
there with you that feel thatway or haven't made it to the
comfort level of discussingAdoption, or theirs, very
specifically?
Speaker 2 (24:31):
Oh, absolutely, and I think you know, I mean, I have
a group of guys that I hang outwith online.
You know, we actually formed a,a Facebook page of, you know,
of male adoptees, which I thinkis great, and you know a lot of
it we always laugh about.
Men are from Mars and women arefrom Venus, you know.
And husbands reactions to theirwives, you know, but why?
(24:53):
You know.
Your wife or girlfriend comesto you and says she's having a
problem.
The first thing you want to dois, oh, we can solve that, you
know, here's all we got to do.
Well, don't dismiss my feelings.
I know I get your feelings, butlet's solve the problem.
I don't want you to solve theproblem, I just want you to
listen to me.
I mean, you get back and forthinto this.
I mean it just is, you know,when it's men, together, it is
(25:14):
we're looking for a solution,we're looking for how to fix
this thing or how to identify itor categorize it.
I mean it's, it's the proactive, in a way, a proactive approach
of, well, you know, notnecessarily get over it, but get
through it, whereas I think alot of the, you know, the female
gathers comfort from each otherand sharing the stories and
(25:37):
sharing the.
You know, you can explain thattendency to me, that you want to
bond and and you want to, youknow, share and Be a part of it,
not necessarily solve it per se.
You want to just feel it andunderstand each other first, or
just just share that, thoseemotions, whereas men don't want
to share the emotions.
(25:57):
They want to fix the problem,if you will, you know yeah, I
think that's a great characterCharacterization.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
I can only speak for myself.
I don't really have a lot oftendency to fix everybody.
So there's that and I like tojust hear that.
Others have been there andmaybe I can learn from it.
I would say that's probably apretty common theme amongst
myself and my Adoptive friendsthat I talked to on a regular
(26:24):
and I would say we have a littlebit of an emotional connection
to family.
I've not experienced this, Ionly know what others have told
me.
But those emotions have atendency to ramp up when they've
had children.
It changes right.
A lot changes as we grow and aswe age and.
But I am infinitely intriguedabout how quiet my words, how
(26:50):
quiet the male adoptee communitySometimes appears to be in
relationship to these types ofconversations.
Speaker 2 (26:59):
Yeah, and you know we all comment on it.
I mean there's I think we have30 members in our group right
now.
They're all solid, all solidcharacters.
Really, you know good guys andI don't want to start mentioning
any of them because I'm there,all impressive to me.
You know, in different ways,very different.
You know not the same, but Ithink we do.
We do share, and you know wemay not talk as much on our
(27:23):
pages.
You know you may have a coupleposts here and there, someone to
throw out, something, someonewill add to it, but it's not a
deluge of, you know, a damnbreaking of Emotions on the page
and you know there's somejoking and and some, you know,
some funny memes and, and youknow it's.
It's definitely a different, adifferent feel, but I think it's
(27:44):
something that you know malesfeel more comfortable with yeah,
I definitely can imagine that,that there is that Component to
it.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
Well, let's talk a little bit.
You've mentioned, or touched onit, connection to the community
.
I do know a little bit aboutthat group and I I'm extremely
excited for that group and Ihope it grows very rapidly.
I think it'll be nothing but abenefit.
So kudos to all of you that arelistening in there, that are a
part of that group.
(28:12):
I just think it's a great thing.
But if you don't mind, let's goahead and dive into kind of
connecting to the communitybeyond the group and what that,
what that means to you.
Speaker 2 (28:23):
Yeah, I think it's.
I think it's huge, I think it's.
You know, my first contact waswith Michael Rocco.
He goes Michael Rocco's his,his name, and in adoption
community and it justcoincidental that his, his birth
, birth last name was my adoptedlast name.
So when I got an Instagram postthat says you may know Michael
(28:47):
Rocco, and I see this mention ofadoption and I'm like, wait a
minute, who's michael rocco?
And then it says like well, mymichael rocco was my birth name,
and I'm like, oh crap, is thislike my father's son?
Is this my uncle's son?
Who's this?
Is this a mysterious rocco thatbelongs in our family?
And it turns out, no, you know,I mean, he was just, it was
(29:09):
just a coincidental name.
But we started talking andeventually started doing some
podcast episodes and you know alot of phone conversations.
He was much more um, I'm notgoing to go into his story, but
he had a much, much moredifficult time with his family,
bonding with them and connectingwith them and a lot of things
that have of us.
But you know, he would say, youknow, jack, we couldn't be more
(29:31):
different.
But we get each other.
You know, I think as we'vegotten to know each other.
I think we're less and lessdifferent and I find that, with
so many adoptees that you know,you look on the surface and
you're like, oh, I'm nothinglike that person, or they're so
much more of this, so much morethat than I am, um, but then
(29:51):
once you get down to their basicmessage, their basic feelings,
the core issues are the same.
It's lack of control, it's lackof belonging, it's lack of, you
know, knowledge.
It's feeling is the outsider.
You know all the things thatyou know, the fundamental core
issues that most adoptees have,but it ends up being, whether
it's a person you know, whetherit's a personality thing,
(30:13):
whether it's a nature thing,whether it's a nurture thing,
like how they react to thosefeelings, or is it a free will
thing, how they choose to reactto these things.
You know that that pulls themin one direction and pulled me
in a different direction orpulled someone else in a third
direction.
So, you know, I mean it's beenhugely helpful for me to get
(30:33):
into the community and and hearand listen, whether I
participate or not.
I appreciate the content andit's also kind of flattering or
humbling that people are comingto me and I'm you know, I'm a
newbie here.
I'm uh, you know I kind of Idid it for me, I didn't do it
for anyone else.
You know, I said I wrote thebook first for me, second for my
(30:55):
kids and third, if there'sanyone else who's interested,
fine, you know, and it's.
It's been flattering that thenumber of other people
interested has been so many andso enthusiastic yeah, I think
that's a positive of thecommunity I do want to touch on.
Speaker 1 (31:10):
There is a significant amount of benefit
even when we do stuff locally,because we never know who's been
touched or who might need amoment, or they are waiting to
find the person that helps themrelate.
We just never know yeah, you'reright.
Speaker 2 (31:29):
I mean, there's so many opportunities, so many
people still feel like there'sno resources available.
And there's plenty of resourcesavailable.
But they're, you know, almostin a dark underground, you know,
just amongst the dot, these notreally released to the general
public.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
If you will, so, so willingly well, I agree with you
and I think that those arereally key points, and so I want
to do a couple of things.
I want to give a shout out.
You've mentioned him a coupletimes.
He's been a guest here on thisshow as well, and that is fred
necora, and his book is forbudin roots, and so, uh, we'll
shamelessly plug him as well inthis episode, because he's come
(32:08):
up a couple different times inyour dialogue and he has a great
story for those of you thathave not had a chance to listen
to that episode or read his book.
And then, as we're closing outhere, jack, let's just talk
about again your book, which iscalled recycled, and it's in, I
believe you said, three parts.
It tackles the nurture side, alittle bit of your nature side,
(32:34):
and then your free will and therebuild of yourself.
Do I have that correct?
Speaker 2 (32:38):
yes, I think that's a good summary.
I always say that.
If you want to read the 32ndversion of my book, you just
read the quote at the beginningof each point.
In the nurture section I quotebenjamin disraeli I think he was
a president of israel and hesays nurture your mind with good
thoughts, because from theheroic comes, creates heroes.
(33:01):
And I would say that was verymuch my upbringing, just very
idyllic, just the stories youknow, creating heroes and be
strong.
Part two is nature comes fromrembrandt and it is have only
one master, nature.
And then part three is a quotestarts that that's the thing
about free will every choice forone thing is a choice against
(33:26):
another.
So I think to me sums up thefeeling of the book that raised
to be this heroic figure and Ithink I did the best I could,
you know, trying toprofessionally achieve and be a
pleaser and everything.
And then when I learned mynature, it's like that was
(33:46):
really the master all along wasmy nature.
And now I'm stuck in thisconundrum of who do I choose?
Do I choose my nurture?
Do I choose my nature?
Can they live cohesivelytogether or will they forever be
at odds, forever battling oneanother, of who I was, who I
should have been, who I am, whoI could have been, and how do I
(34:08):
merge all those in the onecohesive life.
But I think it's.
It's challenging.
I try to.
I'm not going to give you theanswer at the end of the book
because I want to leave a littleteaser, but I I come to a
conclusion for me that has beenhelpful for me.
I won't apologize for it, it's,it's what, what has helped me.
I do try to live that.
(34:28):
I do try to as difficult as itis but as long of a story as it
is, to come up with the ending.
I think it's important to meand I think it has helped me and
hopefully to help others.
Speaker 1 (34:40):
Well, that sounds great.
It has been a fantasticconversation with you today here
on the podcast, jack, and Ijust want to say thank you so
much for joining us and openingup to other adoptees, but also
opening up as a gentleman in ourcommunity, and I hope that it
encourages other gentlemen aswell to kind of get out there
(35:03):
and start telling their storiesso that there is a well-rounded
perspective on on these things.
So I just want to say thank youagain for coming on the show
today.
Speaker 2 (35:13):
Oh, thank you so much .
It's.
It's really been a pleasure.
I'm honored to be able to shareand flattering, so thank you so
much.
Speaker 1 (35:21):
Thank you for listening to today's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadoptedcom.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!