March 6, 2024 • 49 mins
Have you ever felt like a piece of your identity was missing? Mary Ellen Gambuti joins us to weave the heartfelt narrative of her life as an adoptee from the baby scoop era, a time when societal pressures and moral expectations often forced the hand of birth parents. Her candid recollection begins with the harrowing tale of her abandonment at birth, her experience in a foundling home, and the eventual adoption by a military family—an upbringing that carved a unique background against the backdrop of growing up in the vibrant tapestry of multiple states and countries.
As if life's puzzle wasn't complex enough, imagine grappling with the "primal wound"—the deep-seated trauma faced by adoptees from early separation. Mary Ellen bravely shares her internal struggle, reflecting on how this early rift sowed seeds of identity challenges and loss that lingered into her adult life. Adding another layer, we discuss the hero narrative of military families and how that shaped her emotions and understanding of gratitude, obligation, and belonging. Her insights serve as a beacon for the adoption community, illuminating the crucial need for specialized therapy and support systems.
Our conversation underscores the universal right for adoptees to access their adoption records—a vital piece in the puzzle of self-understanding. Her story, chronicled in "I Must Have Wandered: An Adopted Air Force Daughter Recalls," provides an intimate look into an adoptee's search for connection and the profound layers that shape a life story.
Connect with Mary Ellen here: https://linktr.ee/SCMel
Check out her book: https://a.co/d/0htiDkP
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
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Speaker 1 (00:08):
Or you don't really see yourself as fitting in and I
feel like I might have had anextra barrier to fitting in
because of having been away.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Ann.
We are an experienced basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, lifeidentity search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, Mary Ellen Gambuti.
Welcome to the show, Mary Ellen.
It's good to have you heretoday.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's great to be with you.
Thank you so much for having me, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Ann.
Well, let's go ahead and kickoff today's discussion with a
little bit about who you are,and then we'll transition into
your adoption story for ouraudience.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Well, I'm very glad to be here to tell you my story.
It's a generational story.
I'm an adoptee.
I was born in 1951 and thatwould have been sort of a few
three years into the baby scoopera for those of you in the
audience.
No, that is a time when therewere many unplanned births and
(01:37):
being post-war, because in mysituation, my mother and father
were about a casual relationship, so this was very true.
In South Carolina, where thereare many, there had been many
airbases, so that was how I cameto be.
(01:58):
I was relinquished at birth, butnot officially.
I guess you would say that Iwas actually more abandoned.
I was born in a hospital, butmy mother just walked out and
they had to actually track herdown.
The hospital was a Catholichospital that was somewhat
(02:19):
affiliated with CatholicCharities, so they had this baby
but they didn't know what theycould do.
Rather than send her to beawarded the state, they did
manage to track her down and shesigned the papers.
It's actually a couple monthslater, about two months, I was
sent to St Philip Hospital,which was an infant home in
(02:44):
Rockhill, the other side of thestate.
I was born in Greenville, southCarolina, so I was put into a
like, a like a foundling homeassociated with the hospital run
by the same nuns that actuallytook care of me in the hospital
where I was awarded for a while,and five months in they did
(03:09):
find a match for me, and mymother and father that adopted
me were military which was very,very common, as I said in those
days and they took me home andfor a period of about a year
until the adoption was completed, they we continued to live in
(03:33):
South Carolina and thenbasically my store takes off
from there because my parentswere New Yorkers and so then my,
my dependent life basicallytook off from there.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I want to touch on something I've just picked up in
your introduction of yourselfthat I have not heard very often
from other adoptees that I haveinterviewed, and that is this
nugget where you were birthedand more or less abandoned, and
I I just don't really like thatword, but it's the one that's
(04:10):
coming to my mind.
Yeah, I've not heard anyoneprior to you today who's
expressed I couldn't even be putinto the system utilizing kind
of that broad brush word untilthey tracked her down.
I know yeah, I mean, that's notcommon, and so that's intriguing
(04:33):
.
That's another layer of a verycomplex story that we're going
to hear a little bits abouttoday.
So, eventually, though, you didget into a structure or an
infrastructure of care thatallowed for you to be get your
bare your bare basics is what Iwhat I say in the context of
(04:53):
someone was feeding you andchanging you and bathing you and
taking care of you, and therewas a time period for that yes.
Now I think it's an interestinghow how much the military may or
may not be playing into yourstory as we go forward.
But before we get there andbefore we dive into the heart of
you know where you grew up interms of geography Do you mind
(05:15):
sharing a little bit with us?
Like what was the age when youreally understood or learned
that you were adopted?
Like how did, how did theknowledge come to you that you
were an adoptee?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, well, I heard the word, you know, as I, as I
was, in my early childhood,because when I was brought to
New York the July that that theytook me home to South Carolina,
there was a lot of talk about,you know, this new adopted, this
(05:49):
new family member who was anadoptee.
So I had heard that word from avery early age.
You know, I I didn't reallyunderstand, didn't have the the
ability to understand what itmeant.
I just knew that it was somehowmade me different, but I didn't
understand whether they lovedme, which they, everybody, you
(06:12):
know, seemed to have, you know,love me all the extended family.
But I didn't understand whetherit was because I was different
or whether it was because orthey loved me even though I was
a different.
I was always analyzing, from avery early age, and I think that
(06:33):
that was a protective thingBased on I think you know, if I
can say it in trauma, becausewhen you're taken away from your
mother so early like that andI'm one who believes that it is
(06:54):
a very severe severance, whenyou have been inside that person
for nine months and familiarwith her voice and her emotions
and all of that, you're at aloss.
You are at a loss.
I knew that I was different.
(07:15):
I kind of liked that I wasdifferent, but I didn't really
hear the story until I was six,and then my father and mother
told it to me as a bedtime story.
This is when we were living inTexas.
What I found is that it made mereally question you know what
(07:37):
happened to the others?
Who do I really look like thatsort of thing.
And for a six-year-old, youknow you're glad, you're happy
that you were or belong tosomebody and that you were
somehow rescued from thisterrible accident that they
created a fable about.
But it did make me very anxiousand this was a characteristic
(08:01):
of me that I have had to dealwith all my life is this anxiety
and this sense of loss.
But it did improve because Idid search eventually and so
there was a happy outcome.
I would have to say.
The ruminating and thequestioning and all of that is
something that became veryinfirmly ingrained in my
(08:25):
personality.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, I wanna touch on a couple of things that
started through our conversationand bring it back a little bit.
Your timeline of birth andmaturing is a person in society
has a different generationalimpact, even than mine or some
of our audience members.
I think that's key.
And why I believe it's key iswe're talking about things that
(08:50):
have no boundary relative to ageneration, and so, as you're
talking about some of yourprenatal experiences, we know
that those types of informationor the impact of what that is
didn't come through in oursociety until much later, after
you were reared as a child toadulthood.
(09:12):
Good point.
In addition to that, theconnection to what we reference
in the adoptee community as theprimal wound and the trauma
associated with that.
It's just really in the lastcouple of decades coming to the
surface and its impacts, and soyou're one of the people that
(09:33):
had such a different experiencebecause there wasn't this
overarching other discussionthat we're having now.
You were literally in adifferent base.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Error.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But the impacts were.
yeah, but the impacts were thesame right what we didn't touch
on and I wanna make sure wedon't overlook this.
While in the introduction youmentioned military and adopted
by military, that in itself hadsome impact into you as how you
(10:08):
were internalizing identity andI say that in the context of Air
Force and moving around asignificant amount of time and
so to hear about your adoptionas a bedtime story at six, it
takes me back to hearing aboutmy adoption as a five year old
(10:29):
going into kindergarten and Idon't think there's any good
time.
But, man, we can affirm, maybeit's not when you're five and
six.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I agree.
I think so too, because you'rejust out and out of a time
period when everything ismagical, right, I mean when
you're two and three and fourand five years old.
You live in a make believe, amagical world.
So for my parents my father, bythe way, had been, just, had
(11:04):
been gone for a year.
He had we moved to Texas and hebasically left for Japan for
almost a year, as.
So not only I was not reallythat familiar with him, since
with military separation he hadbeen away quite frequently, but
(11:28):
certainly at age five he wasaway for a year when we lived in
New Jersey.
But in any case, coming out ofthat magical time period, when
you're being told that you havenobody, that we loved you, we
(11:49):
wanted a child and loved you andbasically took you home, and if
we hadn't I mean this was theway I read it anyway if we
hadn't, you would have hadnobody, there would not have
been anyone for you and that wassupposed to be this hero save
(12:10):
your mentality.
And for my father, that wasdeeply important to him to be
able to have rescued me.
And but I could not, I couldn'tunderstand that All I knew was,
hmm, people that were mine arebasically dead to me.
(12:33):
There was an accident and Isurvived and I survived, and
because I survived I have thesepeople that were willing to
basically take me out of thestreet, what I like about where
you're going with this and Ijust want to tag in a little bit
.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
We talk about the narrative of chosen and
gratitude and lucky.
As the daughter of someone inthe military who already is
exhibiting a hero mentality, Ihave a military connection that
does happen.
And then to do this, you'rejust consistently elevating the
(13:15):
societal norms of that timeperiod, of what made a good
human, a good man, you know,dedicated to his country,
dedicated to his family andwilling to take in, take in.
And I can see where there's a,you know, a friction point in
that narrative for the personsuch as you living in the
(13:39):
experience, yeah, thanks, that'shelpful and so astute of you.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
My father was, you know, a.
He was not physically a verystrong presence, but he
exhibited his strength by, youknow, his devotion to my mother
and his intent need to protectme, you know, and that
(14:09):
protection of protectionactually ended up having a
fairly negative effect on me.
He didn't understand who I was.
How could he?
He had no information otherthan that my mother was, from
their point of view, a waywardwoman and left me, and that was
(14:35):
it.
So he couldn't know who I was,but he tried to make me who he
wanted me to be, and I thinkthis is something that will
resonate with you know, youraudience, because they're Many
of us have said that as adoptees, we were molded, or attempted
(15:01):
to be molded, into what theirideal child would have been,
because they did lose a child insome sense, and that's why they
got us out of loss Out of loss.
So they had dealt with that lossright.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
That loss had not been addressed Well in your
story.
What we haven't touched on isthat you are an author, and I
want us to kind of startbringing in a little bit of how
you have been working throughthese thoughts and this
conversation, your livedexperience of adoption.
I just want to say that youpublished a book August 8th of
(15:43):
2022 and the title of that is IMust have Wandered and Adopted
Air Force Daughter Recalls.
It's a good book.
I read it.
I stayed up last night tofinish the last of it so that we
were prepared for today, andthere's a theme in there that we
haven't touched on yet.
We've talked quite a bit aboutyour father, but we haven't
(16:06):
touched on the relationship youhad with your mother, and so I
think that that's interesting.
I always look for how can Iconnect to my guest, and we have
some theme and shared themeabout the approach of mothering,
and so do you mind sharing withthe audience your mother and
how she mothered you in thislife journey?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Sure.
Well, she was an Air Force wifeand as such she was post-World
War II Air Force wife.
So she was out of thedepression, out of that whole
era of hardship and not beingable to have her own child, and
(16:52):
she was a nurse as well.
She was a registered nurse anda visiting nurse as well.
So she had a lot of caringinstinct about her.
But primarily what molded herwas duty To the country To be a
(17:15):
good spouse to her officerhusband and then, of course, to
be a mother of a child she didnot.
Birth was, I think, extremelyhard for her.
When I think about it now, as achild, as an infant, with my
father often away, she was undera great deal of stress and I
(17:38):
think she wasn't really equippedto handle that, even though she
was a nurse.
I think she was capable, butshe psychologically, emotionally
, I don't think that she wascapable of handling it.
A child that she did not have,and I think that was a conflict
(18:00):
that we were in pretty much herentire life.
I mean, she died a few yearsago.
She was already in her mid-90s,but we still struggled.
I struggled, I think, foracceptance to her, which is a
very odd kind of thing to thinkof it, because I think she
(18:20):
always maintained like some kindof a distance between us.
That was probably even furthercomplicated by the fact that I
did a search, but that's aslightly different angle.
When I was an infant, she hadthat emotional problem right.
She was afraid that I was goingto get taken away from her,
(18:42):
that she couldn't really do it.
She was tortured really.
But I think that she confessedthat when I was quite young I
think I was probably only aroundfive or six or and then going
forward she would say that Ithought you were going to get
(19:02):
taken away from me, which issomething to hear when your
child that well, why?
That might have even been priorto my having the lecture, the
lecture on my adoption.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
The poor thing, you know.
Yeah, I think of that, maryEllen, in the context of what a
burden to put on her humanpsyche and your human psyche.
Absolutely, I have shared thisand so I don't want to go too
deep because I feel sometimesit's I'm a broken record and I
don't want to be the brokenrecord, but I have learned only
(19:43):
in the past couple of years tohave more empathy for my mother,
who raised me and understandingthe complexity of what she was
going through as a woman thatcould not bear children and then
having a child that she neededto nurture, and there were, you
know, common themes around theability for the child to
(20:09):
actually attach to that femaleand to feel like that's the
mother, and what that played onon her for years and years and
years.
And how, then, that impacted myperception of our relationship
and what I was looking for fromher, and I'm open about this, I
(20:30):
really just wanted her to likeyeah, I just wanted her to love
me, and I don't know if she wasever capable of doing so.
And I say it in that way, not ina, not as if I'm demeaning her.
I mean it as if I don't know ifshe could wholeheartedly love
me.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, basically you're giving her some slack.
Yeah, you are, because and it'sthe same thing with me and I
really didn't come into a fullunderstanding of that
relationship.
And until she was in her veryold old age, and that was when
she was going into some dementiaand she would say things that
(21:11):
were just horrific.
I mean, she would say thingslike you're not really mine and
well, that was, that was theworst of it right there, that's
pretty damn.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Let's be honest about it that that's hard to come
back.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Absolutely.
And then the nurses would say,because we were, she was in
assisted living, she doesn'tmean it.
She doesn't mean it, she's.
You know she's she's havingsome dementia and this and that,
but I know she meant it.
I know that she was basicallytelling it like it is.
(21:45):
But in any case, you know she'sto be forgiven and we had some
friendship.
You know, it's not that we didnot have a kinship, but her
closeness was really to her ownmother and that's the strange
part of it, because her, hermother, was so close to her that
(22:09):
that I think it, even though Iabsolutely adored my grandmother
, she was so close to her.
I think it was out of her, of afear.
I don't know, I don't want totry to psychoanalyze her, but it
seems like her fear to bondwith me came out of a fear of
(22:30):
losing her mother or not havingthe you know, the faithfulness,
and that's just couldn't havebeen further from the truth.
My, my grandmother, was justsuch an open and wonderful
person and poor mom, you knowshe needed her, especially as an
Air Force wife who never reallyemotionally sort of grew away
(22:52):
from from her mother.
So it was complex.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Well, I picked up on that.
I did pick up on the closenessof the relationship between your
grandmother and your mother,but I also picked up on the
closeness of the relationshipbetween yourself and your
grandmother and it was soheartwarming to read those
portions of your book in thecontext of.
I could relate with almosteverything you said around.
(23:17):
I would do this.
It was almost like you wereyour grandmother's shadow and
she was, you know, reallyembracing you and loving on you
and I I got to.
Oh, I wonder if that's commonfor grandmothers of adoptees,
because they see that otherdisconnect and they're
compensating in some ways.
Totally my theory not based inscience.
(23:40):
No, no studies to back that up.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
But but my my yeah, well, I think there's something
to that, because my, mygrandmother was, I'm sure she
was quietly astute, you know sheobserved, but we didn't live
with her all the time.
But there the household was setup for us as a as a quote
(24:04):
unquote permanent home.
So my father called it in NewJersey, so that when we were
away and we were often away thatmy grandparents would still
have a home that we could comeback to.
So it's not that we were thereall the time.
I'm sure that when we werethere, the way she mothered me
(24:27):
was was a little bit, perhaps alittle bit or or different.
Had I been a natural child butagain, I could be reading into
it as well.
But, yes, I mean, I adored her.
She was the, the person who hadthe tolerance that that my
(24:48):
mother did not have.
My mother was not a tolerantperson and was sometimes could,
could actually be very cruel andemotionally and sometimes
physically too.
But both of my parents were,could be emotionally and
(25:09):
physically abusive, but mygrandmother, of course, was not.
She was a sanctuary.
You know, she was somebody andand I always, and I think of her
every day.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
That's interesting.
We have that in common as well.
I absolutely adored mygrandmother on my adoptee
maternal side.
I speak of her often.
I reference her as my hero.
If I could be half the womanshe was, I'm going to be, you
know, really, really happy withthe life that I leave on the
earth.
She was.
(25:42):
She was a phenomenal personDoesn't mean she wasn't
imperfect as well.
I love the imperfect of her asmuch as I love the perfect of
her.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, I do.
I think about my grandmotherevery, every day, every day of
my life.
I get it.
I 100% get it yeah.
It's so unique because it's adifferent aspect to how we feel
about our attachment to theadoptee family in the context of
(26:12):
kind of that, that chasm of I'mnot really belonging, but we
both share this.
Like there's this one personthat is my, you know, my basic
idol.
It's just very interesting.
Yeah, I agree, there's so manygood things and in what you say,
I just tackle a little bitabout your identity and how you
(26:33):
felt about yourself.
This is really about you and wetalked a little bit about those
early years.
But things started shifting foryou as you were going through
all of the normal developmentalmilestones of life and you give
us a little bit of insight into,you know, the complexity of
(26:53):
being that military child lackof connection with your, your
father mostly absent, true lackof emotional connection with
your mother and then how youwere navigating some of those
tougher years.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Not well, I have to say.
I think when we, when wereturned from three years in in
Japan, we returned to the, tothe home where my grandparents
lived in New Jersey, and westayed there through my, you
know, AJ teen, I left then.
(27:28):
That was a very, very difficulttime for me because not only as
a military quote, unquote brat.
You're in a different sort ofculture, still not the same as
growing up in your own hometownwith, with all of your familiar
friends and and places.
So I would try to try toassimilate.
(27:53):
I think I was definitely in aculture shock and when I come,
when I think about having been a, an adopted, you know, 12 year
old and also a military childwho is completely unfamiliar
with the town I had left behind,or not completely familiar,
(28:16):
that's probably a bit much.
I mean, I did know kids fromprevious years.
I had gone to the same schoolin kindergarten, fourth and
eighth, so I knew some kids.
But it was very, very difficultto make my way.
I was extremely shy,self-conscious, or you don't
(28:39):
really see yourself as fittingin, and I feel like I might have
had an extra barrier to fittingin because of having been away,
being a military child.
I just couldn't find myself,and during high school it really
(29:03):
was terrible.
This is also the Vietnam Warera.
I graduated from high school in1969.
Any of your audience that canunderstand what the cultural
implications of that were,you'll find that you were faced
(29:24):
with all kinds of differentchoices.
I didn't always make the rightchoices.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, it was definitely a larger national,
shifting culture time period.
I don't know if all of us canrelate to that.
I think that it depends on alot of things.
When we look at history, we cansee all of the different eras
not just generation but trulyeras and having to navigate some
(29:54):
of those to be associated withan era of wartime where we
weren't really all connected towhat we were doing, and there
was Exactly, yeah, it wasn'tlike there was this unification
around what was going on at thatparticular time period, exactly
yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It was much, yeah much, much different than the
post-World War II era, where thedepression and the unification
Roosevelt era and all of that.
And then, with that era, theVietnam era, which my father was
actually involved in theSoutheast Asia conflict before
(30:37):
we left for Japan because, asyou know, that was brewing, but
it was more a question of warand peace than, of course, the
women's movement was budding,and so, yeah, it was a pretty
chaotic mess to begin with, andpeople that I knew in high
(30:58):
school were being shipped off.
I had a number of guys thatended up in Vietnam.
Unfortunately, a couple of themdidn't even return and they
were so young, so it was a very,very hard time.
My father was away in Thailandduring my junior year.
He was away the entire time.
(31:21):
He was head of operations inNorthern Thailand for people who
were soldiers, who were flyingout, and he came back quite
troubled about the entire thing.
And, of course, he came back toa daughter who was pretty much
of a mess, but I was stillliving home.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Right, you were pushing against the norms with
your peers.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So I kind of equate that I don't mean it to sound
flip infant, just to lightenthis up a little bit.
That era was a hot Southernmess.
Oh it was, wasn't it?
Yeah, I mean, that's just, Ijust yeah.
So we were talking.
I'm like, you know, there's areally good reference to
Southern pride here for some ofour listeners.
It really was, and people were,you know, going through things,
(32:10):
and then you add in all thelayers that you were going
through.
It's quite intriguing.
Let's talk a little bit and doa little shift here.
I understand all of those majorcomplexities and I applaud you
for getting to where you are inlife, having the courage to
(32:31):
write a lot of this in your book.
I want us to just pivot, though, and talk about your biological
search, what finally spurredyou to do that, and about how
oldish were you.
If you're willing to share, noproblem.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
It was 30 years ago that I actually embarked on it
In my second marriage and weneeded to get a passport.
This is exactly what triggeredit.
We needed to get a passport.
I found that I could not usethe documentation that I had
(33:07):
used as a dependent as an AirForce dependent I had to.
All I had was a certificate ofbaptism and birth and that was
no longer considered a validform of ID.
So I used, I tried to get mypassport.
That way didn't work.
And then I realized, you know,in my conversation with the
(33:31):
state of South Carolina, Irealized that there was actually
something else and that was anamended birth certificate.
Well, that was really a shocker.
I had no idea that that wassomething like that existed.
And when I looked into it withmy conversation, just before the
(33:53):
internet as well, with all myphone calls, so I got one I got
my amended birth certificate andseeing that document tells me
that I was actually born inGreenville, south Carolina,
which my other document saysthat I was born in Rock Hill,
which is where the infant homewas.
(34:15):
So my parents had told me allmy life that I was born in Rock
Hill.
There was no mention of thetown of Greenville and that
really got me thinking.
And now, at the same time thiswas happening, my husband came
in contact with Joe Saul, thecounselor.
He was doing a lot of activismin Adopt-E-Rites in the state of
(34:41):
New Jersey.
My husband was an employee atthe state of New Jersey.
He picked up one of Joe'spamphlets because they were
having a march.
They were doing, like I said,quite a lot of activism then for
Adopt-E-Rites.
He brought it home to me and Iended up finding out about
Adoption Forum, aPhiladelphia-based Adopt-E
(35:04):
advocacy group.
So we went to a couple ofmeetings down there.
They connected me with searchpeople in South Carolina.
Well, that really just launchedit.
Once I had that information, Ijust knew I had to keep going.
When I was a teenager, I thoughtquite a lot about who do I look
(35:28):
like.
I dreamt that I would see mybiological siblings.
Now I had no idea that Iactually had biological siblings
, but now I'm thinking aboutthese quote-unquote siblings.
So you know, I was really firedup when this happened and I
(35:49):
just spent a good year and ahalf tracking down any kind of
kin that I might have in SouthCarolina and I was successful.
You know, in a nutshell, endedup meeting my biological mother
a year before she passed away,which was again.
It was just a I guess they callit perpinkoody, the sense that
(36:12):
there are people that you arekin with and then you meet these
people.
It was really quiteextraordinary.
Overall, it was quite positiveto.
I met a sister who was close inage, and then cousins and you
know.
I mean it was really quite richexperience, but it really was
life-changing.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Let me ask you a couple of questions, as we're
kind of digesting all of thatinformation Absolutely when I
hear you talk about that timeperiod, mary Ellen, there's two
defining moments.
One is I just needed mypassport.
It was the catalyst to gettinginformation.
(36:55):
The other one is, while I'mhere, I might as well go all the
way for it, because I've hadother experiences that indicate
I probably should go and lookfor these people.
What is really interesting, andunderstated many times from my
perspective only that theefforts that adoptees in certain
(37:22):
generations have had to gothrough to get some of even the
basics that we're able to gettoday because of technology,
because of DNA testing.
The groundswell we're feelingnow has a very solid, firm
(37:44):
foundation of people who havealready gone through many of
those hurdles.
We're still jumping overhurdles, there's no doubt about
that, but there's still a lot ofvalue in the work that was done
before technology and thepervasiveness of it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Right?
Well, I certainly can't takeany credit for it.
The people who people like theadoption forum and people who
you know Alma and others thoseare the people that deserve all
the credit for all the hard hardwork they have done and still
(38:28):
continue to do as far as adopteerights are concerned.
But yes, I totally agree, thiswas a hard fought battle.
My state has only just releasedthe ability to get our birth
certificates, so I finally havemine after all these years.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, yeah, and we've touched on this a little bit
already, but the generationalspread and the different areas
really isn't a boundary and itdoesn't change a lot of this
conversation.
You know, I think about yourreunion with your birth mother
and you mentioned it was a yearbefore she passed.
(39:13):
We have that in common, weactually have that in common too
.
Yeah, but, and we have somesiblings in common.
What I think, though I don'twant to gloss over, is there was
a lot of positivity for you asas a human, meeting, finding and
(39:34):
meeting and forgingrelationships on your maternal
side, and I don't want us tooverlook that, because, if I
remember correctly, when we weretalking previously, you
referenced it as coming intoyour wholeness.
This search and those reunionsand that relationship building
(39:54):
activity has helped you becomethe whole you that you are, is
is.
Did I hit that right?
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Oh, I think so.
Yes, I think none of this is agood good analogy, but it's like
peeling back the the layers ofof who you are for, good and bad
.
My birth mother was definitelyfraught, you know, with with
issues, but it didn't matterbecause she was mine and I and I
(40:25):
had her.
You know, there was no, therewas no sense that that I would
blame her, because I couldreally understand how that could
have come about and I know alittle more now that I have my
my records.
Meeting her, it was all, it wasall good.
(40:47):
You know, it was all right.
Yeah, it's, it's beenextraordinary, it really has I.
I wouldn't change how ithappened.
I wouldn't change it for theworld.
Anything happened was all tothe good.
The search is concerned.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I was very, very fortunate, but yeah, Well, I'm
glad that it's turned out thatway for you.
And now I want us to move toanother portion of what we want
to talk about today, and that isthe takeaways from our
conversation.
I think there are three of themthat are really starting to
(41:23):
bubble up, and one is along thelines of it doesn't matter your
age, your generation, your era,there's always time to figure
stuff out Don't be consumed.
I think one of the things youand I agreed to earlier was
let's not put a boundary onourself around a time period.
(41:43):
I'm too old, I'm too young, I'mI don't have, you know, all of
the resources.
It can be daunting and tiring.
Go ahead and lay your sworddown for a little bit if you
need to, but there's no boundary, and you're a representation of
of that statement.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Oh, thank you.
I mean I I can honestly say Idon't feel like kept me young.
I think it was very, it wasvery grueling, but you know what
?
The whole life?
Life hasn't been that simple oreasy, but I think finding your
(42:25):
identity is it's number one.
You know, if you, if you'refortunate enough to have knowing
, knowing, knowing who yourmirrors are, knowing who all you
know your biological family is,you know, that's all good, but
(42:45):
I think adoptees have the aninherent right, you know, to our
identity and to our heritage,and this is something that I say
many times in in my book thatwe need to make sure that these
(43:08):
laws get changed, not only fordomestic adoptees but for for
international adoptees.
The way has to be paved foreverybody to be able to have
access.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I think that that's such an important portion of the
conversation, mary Ellen, andit ties into adoptee communities
and connection, and one of thethings I know you would like to
put on the table is theconversation for the generations
behind you, and not only them,the adoptees, not only the
(43:45):
biological parents, but also theadoptee parents, the adoptive
parents.
And so what is your message tothat group of our long story and
our long trials andtribulations?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
You know, I think, in terms of fellow adoptees, we we
do have, we do have toacknowledge that all of our
stories are different, but we'reall tied in in terms of, you
know, the genetic identity andand the loss of heritage.
(44:23):
So we do have, we can't, wehave to acknowledge that we have
the right to to these records.
So that's one thing.
As far as adoptive, adoptiveparents are concerned, I would
have to say you know, be awarethat that you're that you've got
(44:45):
, you're taking on quite acomplex individual by adoption.
You know that that childdeserves all the empathy and
understanding and honesty andtransparency that they can get.
(45:05):
And you know if, if there'ssuffering, if there's any type
of behavioral issue, they'reentitled to adoption therapy.
You know people that arequalified to take care of
adoption issues.
Just get help if you need it,because we all know that there
(45:30):
is.
Now we know that there is sucha thing as adoption trauma, and
take care of yourselves and getthe help you need.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
What I would say in support of your comments are
part of my mission to say gofind the tool that works for you
.
Lots of adoptee, competenttherapist and then we have to
acknowledge that we don't allhave all of those things all the
time at our fingertips.
So find the one that allows youin that moment to address that
(46:04):
thing, and then go find the onethat helps you move to the next
iteration of your journey.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I think you're right and I just want to say that my
opinion of don't rely on eachother, only just open yourself
up to different ways and thinkcritically about what your
approach is going to be, but getthe help of qualified
professional if you need it.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
And if you can not, all of us can.
I know that's just such a hard.
It's so hard for us to wrap ourhead around that because we
want it so badly, but lots oftools lots of tools While we're
coming to the end of ourconversation today.
It's been fantastic.
I don't want us to overlook,though, that you do have a book,
and so go ahead and tell us thename of your book, where we can
(47:00):
find you, and yeah, let's gothere.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, so glad to be here.
My book is, I must havewondered, an adopted Air Force
Daughter recalls, and it's amemoir about.
I really think of it as ahybrid memoir.
It's a collage of letters andprose, poetry and articles and
(47:25):
photos, so it's a.
It's pretty all encompassing,so it's available anywhere.
Books are sold, so have anewsletter.
If you're interested, you cango into sub stack and find me
there.
The call is roots and branchesand I would welcome you to come
(47:48):
and join and follow me there.
My writing I really haven'tbeen that much on Facebook, but
I am also on Facebook andInstagram.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
All right.
Well, that's great.
I just want to close with thankyou for joining us today.
I do know that it is hard foradoptees at times to tell their
story, and we end up relivingsome of those experiences as
we're telling them.
So it is an honor it is a truehonor for me to be able to be in
this space and to share it withyou.
(48:19):
You are always welcome here atWandering Tree podcast and I
just want to wish you the best.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Thank you so much.
It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree podcast.
Please rate and be sure to signup so we can experience the
lived adoptee journey together.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atWanderingTreeAdoptedcom.
Or you don't really see yourself as fitting in and I
feel like I might have had anextra barrier to fitting in
because of having been away.
Speaker 2 (00:35):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Ann.
We are an experienced basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, lifeidentity search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, Mary Ellen Gambuti.
Welcome to the show, Mary Ellen.
It's good to have you heretoday.
Speaker 1 (00:54):
It's great to be with you.
Thank you so much for having me, Lisa.
Speaker 2 (00:58):
Ann.
Well, let's go ahead and kickoff today's discussion with a
little bit about who you are,and then we'll transition into
your adoption story for ouraudience.
Speaker 1 (01:09):
Well, I'm very glad to be here to tell you my story.
It's a generational story.
I'm an adoptee.
I was born in 1951 and thatwould have been sort of a few
three years into the baby scoopera for those of you in the
audience.
No, that is a time when therewere many unplanned births and
(01:37):
being post-war, because in mysituation, my mother and father
were about a casual relationship, so this was very true.
In South Carolina, where thereare many, there had been many
airbases, so that was how I cameto be.
(01:58):
I was relinquished at birth, butnot officially.
I guess you would say that Iwas actually more abandoned.
I was born in a hospital, butmy mother just walked out and
they had to actually track herdown.
The hospital was a Catholichospital that was somewhat
(02:19):
affiliated with CatholicCharities, so they had this baby
but they didn't know what theycould do.
Rather than send her to beawarded the state, they did
manage to track her down and shesigned the papers.
It's actually a couple monthslater, about two months, I was
sent to St Philip Hospital,which was an infant home in
(02:44):
Rockhill, the other side of thestate.
I was born in Greenville, southCarolina, so I was put into a
like, a like a foundling homeassociated with the hospital run
by the same nuns that actuallytook care of me in the hospital
where I was awarded for a while,and five months in they did
(03:09):
find a match for me, and mymother and father that adopted
me were military which was very,very common, as I said in those
days and they took me home andfor a period of about a year
until the adoption was completed, they we continued to live in
(03:33):
South Carolina and thenbasically my store takes off
from there because my parentswere New Yorkers and so then my,
my dependent life basicallytook off from there.
Speaker 2 (03:48):
I want to touch on something I've just picked up in
your introduction of yourselfthat I have not heard very often
from other adoptees that I haveinterviewed, and that is this
nugget where you were birthedand more or less abandoned, and
I I just don't really like thatword, but it's the one that's
(04:10):
coming to my mind.
Yeah, I've not heard anyoneprior to you today who's
expressed I couldn't even be putinto the system utilizing kind
of that broad brush word untilthey tracked her down.
I know yeah, I mean, that's notcommon, and so that's intriguing
(04:33):
.
That's another layer of a verycomplex story that we're going
to hear a little bits abouttoday.
So, eventually, though, you didget into a structure or an
infrastructure of care thatallowed for you to be get your
bare your bare basics is what Iwhat I say in the context of
(04:53):
someone was feeding you andchanging you and bathing you and
taking care of you, and therewas a time period for that yes.
Now I think it's an interestinghow how much the military may or
may not be playing into yourstory as we go forward.
But before we get there andbefore we dive into the heart of
you know where you grew up interms of geography Do you mind
(05:15):
sharing a little bit with us?
Like what was the age when youreally understood or learned
that you were adopted?
Like how did, how did theknowledge come to you that you
were an adoptee?
Speaker 1 (05:27):
Yeah, well, I heard the word, you know, as I, as I
was, in my early childhood,because when I was brought to
New York the July that that theytook me home to South Carolina,
there was a lot of talk about,you know, this new adopted, this
(05:49):
new family member who was anadoptee.
So I had heard that word from avery early age.
You know, I I didn't reallyunderstand, didn't have the the
ability to understand what itmeant.
I just knew that it was somehowmade me different, but I didn't
understand whether they lovedme, which they, everybody, you
(06:12):
know, seemed to have, you know,love me all the extended family.
But I didn't understand whetherit was because I was different
or whether it was because orthey loved me even though I was
a different.
I was always analyzing, from avery early age, and I think that
(06:33):
that was a protective thingBased on I think you know, if I
can say it in trauma, becausewhen you're taken away from your
mother so early like that andI'm one who believes that it is
(06:54):
a very severe severance, whenyou have been inside that person
for nine months and familiarwith her voice and her emotions
and all of that, you're at aloss.
You are at a loss.
I knew that I was different.
(07:15):
I kind of liked that I wasdifferent, but I didn't really
hear the story until I was six,and then my father and mother
told it to me as a bedtime story.
This is when we were living inTexas.
What I found is that it made mereally question you know what
(07:37):
happened to the others?
Who do I really look like thatsort of thing.
And for a six-year-old, youknow you're glad, you're happy
that you were or belong tosomebody and that you were
somehow rescued from thisterrible accident that they
created a fable about.
But it did make me very anxiousand this was a characteristic
(08:01):
of me that I have had to dealwith all my life is this anxiety
and this sense of loss.
But it did improve because Idid search eventually and so
there was a happy outcome.
I would have to say.
The ruminating and thequestioning and all of that is
something that became veryinfirmly ingrained in my
(08:25):
personality.
Speaker 2 (08:26):
Well, I wanna touch on a couple of things that
started through our conversationand bring it back a little bit.
Your timeline of birth andmaturing is a person in society
has a different generationalimpact, even than mine or some
of our audience members.
I think that's key.
And why I believe it's key iswe're talking about things that
(08:50):
have no boundary relative to ageneration, and so, as you're
talking about some of yourprenatal experiences, we know
that those types of informationor the impact of what that is
didn't come through in oursociety until much later, after
you were reared as a child toadulthood.
(09:12):
Good point.
In addition to that, theconnection to what we reference
in the adoptee community as theprimal wound and the trauma
associated with that.
It's just really in the lastcouple of decades coming to the
surface and its impacts, and soyou're one of the people that
(09:33):
had such a different experiencebecause there wasn't this
overarching other discussionthat we're having now.
You were literally in adifferent base.
Speaker 1 (09:47):
Error.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
But the impacts were.
yeah, but the impacts were thesame right what we didn't touch
on and I wanna make sure wedon't overlook this.
While in the introduction youmentioned military and adopted
by military, that in itself hadsome impact into you as how you
(10:08):
were internalizing identity andI say that in the context of Air
Force and moving around asignificant amount of time and
so to hear about your adoptionas a bedtime story at six, it
takes me back to hearing aboutmy adoption as a five year old
(10:29):
going into kindergarten and Idon't think there's any good
time.
But, man, we can affirm, maybeit's not when you're five and
six.
Speaker 1 (10:38):
I agree.
I think so too, because you'rejust out and out of a time
period when everything ismagical, right, I mean when
you're two and three and fourand five years old.
You live in a make believe, amagical world.
So for my parents my father, bythe way, had been, just, had
(11:04):
been gone for a year.
He had we moved to Texas and hebasically left for Japan for
almost a year, as.
So not only I was not reallythat familiar with him, since
with military separation he hadbeen away quite frequently, but
(11:28):
certainly at age five he wasaway for a year when we lived in
New Jersey.
But in any case, coming out ofthat magical time period, when
you're being told that you havenobody, that we loved you, we
(11:49):
wanted a child and loved you andbasically took you home, and if
we hadn't I mean this was theway I read it anyway if we
hadn't, you would have hadnobody, there would not have
been anyone for you and that wassupposed to be this hero save
(12:10):
your mentality.
And for my father, that wasdeeply important to him to be
able to have rescued me.
And but I could not, I couldn'tunderstand that All I knew was,
hmm, people that were mine arebasically dead to me.
(12:33):
There was an accident and Isurvived and I survived, and
because I survived I have thesepeople that were willing to
basically take me out of thestreet, what I like about where
you're going with this and Ijust want to tag in a little bit
.
Speaker 2 (12:52):
We talk about the narrative of chosen and
gratitude and lucky.
As the daughter of someone inthe military who already is
exhibiting a hero mentality, Ihave a military connection that
does happen.
And then to do this, you'rejust consistently elevating the
(13:15):
societal norms of that timeperiod, of what made a good
human, a good man, you know,dedicated to his country,
dedicated to his family andwilling to take in, take in.
And I can see where there's a,you know, a friction point in
that narrative for the personsuch as you living in the
(13:39):
experience, yeah, thanks, that'shelpful and so astute of you.
Speaker 1 (13:47):
My father was, you know, a.
He was not physically a verystrong presence, but he
exhibited his strength by, youknow, his devotion to my mother
and his intent need to protectme, you know, and that
(14:09):
protection of protectionactually ended up having a
fairly negative effect on me.
He didn't understand who I was.
How could he?
He had no information otherthan that my mother was, from
their point of view, a waywardwoman and left me, and that was
(14:35):
it.
So he couldn't know who I was,but he tried to make me who he
wanted me to be, and I thinkthis is something that will
resonate with you know, youraudience, because they're Many
of us have said that as adoptees, we were molded, or attempted
(15:01):
to be molded, into what theirideal child would have been,
because they did lose a child insome sense, and that's why they
got us out of loss Out of loss.
So they had dealt with that lossright.
Speaker 2 (15:20):
That loss had not been addressed Well in your
story.
What we haven't touched on isthat you are an author, and I
want us to kind of startbringing in a little bit of how
you have been working throughthese thoughts and this
conversation, your livedexperience of adoption.
I just want to say that youpublished a book August 8th of
(15:43):
2022 and the title of that is IMust have Wandered and Adopted
Air Force Daughter Recalls.
It's a good book.
I read it.
I stayed up last night tofinish the last of it so that we
were prepared for today, andthere's a theme in there that we
haven't touched on yet.
We've talked quite a bit aboutyour father, but we haven't
(16:06):
touched on the relationship youhad with your mother, and so I
think that that's interesting.
I always look for how can Iconnect to my guest, and we have
some theme and shared themeabout the approach of mothering,
and so do you mind sharing withthe audience your mother and
how she mothered you in thislife journey?
Speaker 1 (16:29):
Sure.
Well, she was an Air Force wifeand as such she was post-World
War II Air Force wife.
So she was out of thedepression, out of that whole
era of hardship and not beingable to have her own child, and
(16:52):
she was a nurse as well.
She was a registered nurse anda visiting nurse as well.
So she had a lot of caringinstinct about her.
But primarily what molded herwas duty To the country To be a
(17:15):
good spouse to her officerhusband and then, of course, to
be a mother of a child she didnot.
Birth was, I think, extremelyhard for her.
When I think about it now, as achild, as an infant, with my
father often away, she was undera great deal of stress and I
(17:38):
think she wasn't really equippedto handle that, even though she
was a nurse.
I think she was capable, butshe psychologically, emotionally
, I don't think that she wascapable of handling it.
A child that she did not have,and I think that was a conflict
(18:00):
that we were in pretty much herentire life.
I mean, she died a few yearsago.
She was already in her mid-90s,but we still struggled.
I struggled, I think, foracceptance to her, which is a
very odd kind of thing to thinkof it, because I think she
(18:20):
always maintained like some kindof a distance between us.
That was probably even furthercomplicated by the fact that I
did a search, but that's aslightly different angle.
When I was an infant, she hadthat emotional problem right.
She was afraid that I was goingto get taken away from her,
(18:42):
that she couldn't really do it.
She was tortured really.
But I think that she confessedthat when I was quite young I
think I was probably only aroundfive or six or and then going
forward she would say that Ithought you were going to get
(19:02):
taken away from me, which issomething to hear when your
child that well, why?
That might have even been priorto my having the lecture, the
lecture on my adoption.
Speaker 2 (19:19):
The poor thing, you know.
Yeah, I think of that, maryEllen, in the context of what a
burden to put on her humanpsyche and your human psyche.
Absolutely, I have shared thisand so I don't want to go too
deep because I feel sometimesit's I'm a broken record and I
don't want to be the brokenrecord, but I have learned only
(19:43):
in the past couple of years tohave more empathy for my mother,
who raised me and understandingthe complexity of what she was
going through as a woman thatcould not bear children and then
having a child that she neededto nurture, and there were, you
know, common themes around theability for the child to
(20:09):
actually attach to that femaleand to feel like that's the
mother, and what that played onon her for years and years and
years.
And how, then, that impacted myperception of our relationship
and what I was looking for fromher, and I'm open about this, I
(20:30):
really just wanted her to likeyeah, I just wanted her to love
me, and I don't know if she wasever capable of doing so.
And I say it in that way, not ina, not as if I'm demeaning her.
I mean it as if I don't know ifshe could wholeheartedly love
me.
Speaker 1 (20:48):
Yeah, basically you're giving her some slack.
Yeah, you are, because and it'sthe same thing with me and I
really didn't come into a fullunderstanding of that
relationship.
And until she was in her veryold old age, and that was when
she was going into some dementiaand she would say things that
(21:11):
were just horrific.
I mean, she would say thingslike you're not really mine and
well, that was, that was theworst of it right there, that's
pretty damn.
Speaker 2 (21:20):
Let's be honest about it that that's hard to come
back.
Speaker 1 (21:25):
Absolutely.
And then the nurses would say,because we were, she was in
assisted living, she doesn'tmean it.
She doesn't mean it, she's.
You know she's she's havingsome dementia and this and that,
but I know she meant it.
I know that she was basicallytelling it like it is.
(21:45):
But in any case, you know she'sto be forgiven and we had some
friendship.
You know, it's not that we didnot have a kinship, but her
closeness was really to her ownmother and that's the strange
part of it, because her, hermother, was so close to her that
(22:09):
that I think it, even though Iabsolutely adored my grandmother
, she was so close to her.
I think it was out of her, of afear.
I don't know, I don't want totry to psychoanalyze her, but it
seems like her fear to bondwith me came out of a fear of
(22:30):
losing her mother or not havingthe you know, the faithfulness,
and that's just couldn't havebeen further from the truth.
My, my grandmother, was justsuch an open and wonderful
person and poor mom, you knowshe needed her, especially as an
Air Force wife who never reallyemotionally sort of grew away
(22:52):
from from her mother.
So it was complex.
Speaker 2 (22:55):
Well, I picked up on that.
I did pick up on the closenessof the relationship between your
grandmother and your mother,but I also picked up on the
closeness of the relationshipbetween yourself and your
grandmother and it was soheartwarming to read those
portions of your book in thecontext of.
I could relate with almosteverything you said around.
(23:17):
I would do this.
It was almost like you wereyour grandmother's shadow and
she was, you know, reallyembracing you and loving on you
and I I got to.
Oh, I wonder if that's commonfor grandmothers of adoptees,
because they see that otherdisconnect and they're
compensating in some ways.
Totally my theory not based inscience.
(23:40):
No, no studies to back that up.
Speaker 1 (23:43):
But but my my yeah, well, I think there's something
to that, because my, mygrandmother was, I'm sure she
was quietly astute, you know sheobserved, but we didn't live
with her all the time.
But there the household was setup for us as a as a quote
(24:04):
unquote permanent home.
So my father called it in NewJersey, so that when we were
away and we were often away thatmy grandparents would still
have a home that we could comeback to.
So it's not that we were thereall the time.
I'm sure that when we werethere, the way she mothered me
(24:27):
was was a little bit, perhaps alittle bit or or different.
Had I been a natural child butagain, I could be reading into
it as well.
But, yes, I mean, I adored her.
She was the, the person who hadthe tolerance that that my
(24:48):
mother did not have.
My mother was not a tolerantperson and was sometimes could,
could actually be very cruel andemotionally and sometimes
physically too.
But both of my parents were,could be emotionally and
(25:09):
physically abusive, but mygrandmother, of course, was not.
She was a sanctuary.
You know, she was somebody andand I always, and I think of her
every day.
Speaker 2 (25:21):
That's interesting.
We have that in common as well.
I absolutely adored mygrandmother on my adoptee
maternal side.
I speak of her often.
I reference her as my hero.
If I could be half the womanshe was, I'm going to be, you
know, really, really happy withthe life that I leave on the
earth.
She was.
(25:42):
She was a phenomenal personDoesn't mean she wasn't
imperfect as well.
I love the imperfect of her asmuch as I love the perfect of
her.
Speaker 1 (25:50):
Yeah, I understand.
Speaker 2 (25:52):
Yeah, I do.
I think about my grandmotherevery, every day, every day of
my life.
I get it.
I 100% get it yeah.
It's so unique because it's adifferent aspect to how we feel
about our attachment to theadoptee family in the context of
(26:12):
kind of that, that chasm of I'mnot really belonging, but we
both share this.
Like there's this one personthat is my, you know, my basic
idol.
It's just very interesting.
Yeah, I agree, there's so manygood things and in what you say,
I just tackle a little bitabout your identity and how you
(26:33):
felt about yourself.
This is really about you and wetalked a little bit about those
early years.
But things started shifting foryou as you were going through
all of the normal developmentalmilestones of life and you give
us a little bit of insight into,you know, the complexity of
(26:53):
being that military child lackof connection with your, your
father mostly absent, true lackof emotional connection with
your mother and then how youwere navigating some of those
tougher years.
Speaker 1 (27:08):
Not well, I have to say.
I think when we, when wereturned from three years in in
Japan, we returned to the, tothe home where my grandparents
lived in New Jersey, and westayed there through my, you
know, AJ teen, I left then.
(27:28):
That was a very, very difficulttime for me because not only as
a military quote, unquote brat.
You're in a different sort ofculture, still not the same as
growing up in your own hometownwith, with all of your familiar
friends and and places.
So I would try to try toassimilate.
(27:53):
I think I was definitely in aculture shock and when I come,
when I think about having been a, an adopted, you know, 12 year
old and also a military childwho is completely unfamiliar
with the town I had left behind,or not completely familiar,
(28:16):
that's probably a bit much.
I mean, I did know kids fromprevious years.
I had gone to the same schoolin kindergarten, fourth and
eighth, so I knew some kids.
But it was very, very difficultto make my way.
I was extremely shy,self-conscious, or you don't
(28:39):
really see yourself as fittingin, and I feel like I might have
had an extra barrier to fittingin because of having been away,
being a military child.
I just couldn't find myself,and during high school it really
(29:03):
was terrible.
This is also the Vietnam Warera.
I graduated from high school in1969.
Any of your audience that canunderstand what the cultural
implications of that were,you'll find that you were faced
(29:24):
with all kinds of differentchoices.
I didn't always make the rightchoices.
Speaker 2 (29:31):
Yeah, it was definitely a larger national,
shifting culture time period.
I don't know if all of us canrelate to that.
I think that it depends on alot of things.
When we look at history, we cansee all of the different eras
not just generation but trulyeras and having to navigate some
(29:54):
of those to be associated withan era of wartime where we
weren't really all connected towhat we were doing, and there
was Exactly, yeah, it wasn'tlike there was this unification
around what was going on at thatparticular time period, exactly
yeah.
Speaker 1 (30:14):
It was much, yeah much, much different than the
post-World War II era, where thedepression and the unification
Roosevelt era and all of that.
And then, with that era, theVietnam era, which my father was
actually involved in theSoutheast Asia conflict before
(30:37):
we left for Japan because, asyou know, that was brewing, but
it was more a question of warand peace than, of course, the
women's movement was budding,and so, yeah, it was a pretty
chaotic mess to begin with, andpeople that I knew in high
(30:58):
school were being shipped off.
I had a number of guys thatended up in Vietnam.
Unfortunately, a couple of themdidn't even return and they
were so young, so it was a very,very hard time.
My father was away in Thailandduring my junior year.
He was away the entire time.
(31:21):
He was head of operations inNorthern Thailand for people who
were soldiers, who were flyingout, and he came back quite
troubled about the entire thing.
And, of course, he came back toa daughter who was pretty much
of a mess, but I was stillliving home.
Speaker 2 (31:43):
Right, you were pushing against the norms with
your peers.
Speaker 1 (31:46):
Exactly.
Speaker 2 (31:47):
So I kind of equate that I don't mean it to sound
flip infant, just to lightenthis up a little bit.
That era was a hot Southernmess.
Oh it was, wasn't it?
Yeah, I mean, that's just, Ijust yeah.
So we were talking.
I'm like, you know, there's areally good reference to
Southern pride here for some ofour listeners.
It really was, and people were,you know, going through things,
(32:10):
and then you add in all thelayers that you were going
through.
It's quite intriguing.
Let's talk a little bit and doa little shift here.
I understand all of those majorcomplexities and I applaud you
for getting to where you are inlife, having the courage to
(32:31):
write a lot of this in your book.
I want us to just pivot, though, and talk about your biological
search, what finally spurredyou to do that, and about how
oldish were you.
If you're willing to share, noproblem.
Speaker 1 (32:47):
It was 30 years ago that I actually embarked on it
In my second marriage and weneeded to get a passport.
This is exactly what triggeredit.
We needed to get a passport.
I found that I could not usethe documentation that I had
(33:07):
used as a dependent as an AirForce dependent I had to.
All I had was a certificate ofbaptism and birth and that was
no longer considered a validform of ID.
So I used, I tried to get mypassport.
That way didn't work.
And then I realized, you know,in my conversation with the
(33:31):
state of South Carolina, Irealized that there was actually
something else and that was anamended birth certificate.
Well, that was really a shocker.
I had no idea that that wassomething like that existed.
And when I looked into it withmy conversation, just before the
(33:53):
internet as well, with all myphone calls, so I got one I got
my amended birth certificate andseeing that document tells me
that I was actually born inGreenville, south Carolina,
which my other document saysthat I was born in Rock Hill,
which is where the infant homewas.
(34:15):
So my parents had told me allmy life that I was born in Rock
Hill.
There was no mention of thetown of Greenville and that
really got me thinking.
And now, at the same time thiswas happening, my husband came
in contact with Joe Saul, thecounselor.
He was doing a lot of activismin Adopt-E-Rites in the state of
(34:41):
New Jersey.
My husband was an employee atthe state of New Jersey.
He picked up one of Joe'spamphlets because they were
having a march.
They were doing, like I said,quite a lot of activism then for
Adopt-E-Rites.
He brought it home to me and Iended up finding out about
Adoption Forum, aPhiladelphia-based Adopt-E
(35:04):
advocacy group.
So we went to a couple ofmeetings down there.
They connected me with searchpeople in South Carolina.
Well, that really just launchedit.
Once I had that information, Ijust knew I had to keep going.
When I was a teenager, I thoughtquite a lot about who do I look
(35:28):
like.
I dreamt that I would see mybiological siblings.
Now I had no idea that Iactually had biological siblings
, but now I'm thinking aboutthese quote-unquote siblings.
So you know, I was really firedup when this happened and I
(35:49):
just spent a good year and ahalf tracking down any kind of
kin that I might have in SouthCarolina and I was successful.
You know, in a nutshell, endedup meeting my biological mother
a year before she passed away,which was again.
It was just a I guess they callit perpinkoody, the sense that
(36:12):
there are people that you arekin with and then you meet these
people.
It was really quiteextraordinary.
Overall, it was quite positiveto.
I met a sister who was close inage, and then cousins and you
know.
I mean it was really quite richexperience, but it really was
life-changing.
Speaker 2 (36:33):
Let me ask you a couple of questions, as we're
kind of digesting all of thatinformation Absolutely when I
hear you talk about that timeperiod, mary Ellen, there's two
defining moments.
One is I just needed mypassport.
It was the catalyst to gettinginformation.
(36:55):
The other one is, while I'mhere, I might as well go all the
way for it, because I've hadother experiences that indicate
I probably should go and lookfor these people.
What is really interesting, andunderstated many times from my
perspective only that theefforts that adoptees in certain
(37:22):
generations have had to gothrough to get some of even the
basics that we're able to gettoday because of technology,
because of DNA testing.
The groundswell we're feelingnow has a very solid, firm
(37:44):
foundation of people who havealready gone through many of
those hurdles.
We're still jumping overhurdles, there's no doubt about
that, but there's still a lot ofvalue in the work that was done
before technology and thepervasiveness of it.
Speaker 1 (38:07):
Right?
Well, I certainly can't takeany credit for it.
The people who people like theadoption forum and people who
you know Alma and others thoseare the people that deserve all
the credit for all the hard hardwork they have done and still
(38:28):
continue to do as far as adopteerights are concerned.
But yes, I totally agree, thiswas a hard fought battle.
My state has only just releasedthe ability to get our birth
certificates, so I finally havemine after all these years.
Speaker 2 (38:53):
Yeah, yeah, and we've touched on this a little bit
already, but the generationalspread and the different areas
really isn't a boundary and itdoesn't change a lot of this
conversation.
You know, I think about yourreunion with your birth mother
and you mentioned it was a yearbefore she passed.
(39:13):
We have that in common, weactually have that in common too
.
Yeah, but, and we have somesiblings in common.
What I think, though I don'twant to gloss over, is there was
a lot of positivity for you asas a human, meeting, finding and
(39:34):
meeting and forgingrelationships on your maternal
side, and I don't want us tooverlook that, because, if I
remember correctly, when we weretalking previously, you
referenced it as coming intoyour wholeness.
This search and those reunionsand that relationship building
(39:54):
activity has helped you becomethe whole you that you are, is
is.
Did I hit that right?
Speaker 1 (40:02):
Oh, I think so.
Yes, I think none of this is agood good analogy, but it's like
peeling back the the layers ofof who you are for, good and bad
.
My birth mother was definitelyfraught, you know, with with
issues, but it didn't matterbecause she was mine and I and I
(40:25):
had her.
You know, there was no, therewas no sense that that I would
blame her, because I couldreally understand how that could
have come about and I know alittle more now that I have my
my records.
Meeting her, it was all, it wasall good.
(40:47):
You know, it was all right.
Yeah, it's, it's beenextraordinary, it really has I.
I wouldn't change how ithappened.
I wouldn't change it for theworld.
Anything happened was all tothe good.
The search is concerned.
Speaker 2 (41:01):
I was very, very fortunate, but yeah, Well, I'm
glad that it's turned out thatway for you.
And now I want us to move toanother portion of what we want
to talk about today, and that isthe takeaways from our
conversation.
I think there are three of themthat are really starting to
(41:23):
bubble up, and one is along thelines of it doesn't matter your
age, your generation, your era,there's always time to figure
stuff out Don't be consumed.
I think one of the things youand I agreed to earlier was
let's not put a boundary onourself around a time period.
(41:43):
I'm too old, I'm too young, I'mI don't have, you know, all of
the resources.
It can be daunting and tiring.
Go ahead and lay your sworddown for a little bit if you
need to, but there's no boundary, and you're a representation of
of that statement.
Speaker 1 (42:01):
Oh, thank you.
I mean I I can honestly say Idon't feel like kept me young.
I think it was very, it wasvery grueling, but you know what
?
The whole life?
Life hasn't been that simple oreasy, but I think finding your
(42:25):
identity is it's number one.
You know, if you, if you'refortunate enough to have knowing
, knowing, knowing who yourmirrors are, knowing who all you
know your biological family is,you know, that's all good, but
(42:45):
I think adoptees have the aninherent right, you know, to our
identity and to our heritage,and this is something that I say
many times in in my book thatwe need to make sure that these
(43:08):
laws get changed, not only fordomestic adoptees but for for
international adoptees.
The way has to be paved foreverybody to be able to have
access.
Speaker 2 (43:20):
I think that that's such an important portion of the
conversation, mary Ellen, andit ties into adoptee communities
and connection, and one of thethings I know you would like to
put on the table is theconversation for the generations
behind you, and not only them,the adoptees, not only the
(43:45):
biological parents, but also theadoptee parents, the adoptive
parents.
And so what is your message tothat group of our long story and
our long trials andtribulations?
Speaker 1 (44:01):
You know, I think, in terms of fellow adoptees, we we
do have, we do have toacknowledge that all of our
stories are different, but we'reall tied in in terms of, you
know, the genetic identity andand the loss of heritage.
(44:23):
So we do have, we can't, wehave to acknowledge that we have
the right to to these records.
So that's one thing.
As far as adoptive, adoptiveparents are concerned, I would
have to say you know, be awarethat that you're that you've got
(44:45):
, you're taking on quite acomplex individual by adoption.
You know that that childdeserves all the empathy and
understanding and honesty andtransparency that they can get.
(45:05):
And you know if, if there'ssuffering, if there's any type
of behavioral issue, they'reentitled to adoption therapy.
You know people that arequalified to take care of
adoption issues.
Just get help if you need it,because we all know that there
(45:30):
is.
Now we know that there is sucha thing as adoption trauma, and
take care of yourselves and getthe help you need.
Speaker 2 (45:44):
What I would say in support of your comments are
part of my mission to say gofind the tool that works for you
.
Lots of adoptee, competenttherapist and then we have to
acknowledge that we don't allhave all of those things all the
time at our fingertips.
So find the one that allows youin that moment to address that
(46:04):
thing, and then go find the onethat helps you move to the next
iteration of your journey.
Speaker 1 (46:10):
I think you're right and I just want to say that my
opinion of don't rely on eachother, only just open yourself
up to different ways and thinkcritically about what your
approach is going to be, but getthe help of qualified
professional if you need it.
Speaker 2 (46:35):
And if you can not, all of us can.
I know that's just such a hard.
It's so hard for us to wrap ourhead around that because we
want it so badly, but lots oftools lots of tools While we're
coming to the end of ourconversation today.
It's been fantastic.
I don't want us to overlook,though, that you do have a book,
and so go ahead and tell us thename of your book, where we can
(47:00):
find you, and yeah, let's gothere.
Speaker 1 (47:04):
Yeah, so glad to be here.
My book is, I must havewondered, an adopted Air Force
Daughter recalls, and it's amemoir about.
I really think of it as ahybrid memoir.
It's a collage of letters andprose, poetry and articles and
(47:25):
photos, so it's a.
It's pretty all encompassing,so it's available anywhere.
Books are sold, so have anewsletter.
If you're interested, you cango into sub stack and find me
there.
The call is roots and branchesand I would welcome you to come
(47:48):
and join and follow me there.
My writing I really haven'tbeen that much on Facebook, but
I am also on Facebook andInstagram.
Speaker 2 (47:58):
All right.
Well, that's great.
I just want to close with thankyou for joining us today.
I do know that it is hard foradoptees at times to tell their
story, and we end up relivingsome of those experiences as
we're telling them.
So it is an honor it is a truehonor for me to be able to be in
this space and to share it withyou.
(48:19):
You are always welcome here atWandering Tree podcast and I
just want to wish you the best.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 (48:27):
Thank you so much.
It's been a real pleasure.
Speaker 2 (48:32):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree podcast.
Please rate and be sure to signup so we can experience the
lived adoptee journey together.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atWanderingTreeAdoptedcom.
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