March 20, 2024 • 58 mins
Have you ever stood at the crossroads of identity, where the past and present collide in a mosaic of loss and discovery? Monica Hall's life is a living embodiment of such a crossroads, as she gracefully carries the dual mantle of being both an adoptee and a birth parent. In this episode, Monica recounts her story of growing up in a Catholic family in Alaska, the heart-wrenching decisions she faced as a teenager, and the complex journey of self-discovery that followed. Join us to unravel the intricate layers of Monica's identity as she opens up about her upcoming memoir and the challenges that led her to write it.
Her narrative doesn't shy away from the painful realities of her past, including the immense pressure of a young girl navigating an unplanned pregnancy within the confines of her religious upbringing. Listen closely as Monica reflects on her determination to hold her baby despite overwhelming opposition, and witness the transformation that unfolds from her darkest moments to a life-affirming reunion with her daughter after 18 years of separation.
Website: monicahall.com
IG: https://www.instagram.com/monicahallauthor/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/Monica.hall27
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
Lisa and I were so thankful in that my siblings
were telling stories about mydad, stories that I was missing,
and it was just such adouble-edged sword.
I got to hear these wonderfulstories, but I was absent from
them.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced-basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, identity,life search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, monica Hall.
Monica comes to us from thegreat state of California today.
(00:58):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Thank you, Lisa Ann.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, we're excited to have you on board today, and
I was wondering if you couldkick us off with a little bit
about yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Well, I am an adoptee first and then I'm a birth
parent.
So a dual threat or a veryconfused human identity issues
and grief and joy and just awhole mix of everything.
Yes, I am.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
That's a lot to put into a sentence and I appreciate
that you've kicked us off with.
I am an adoptee and a birthparent and we know that
combination is not new forpeople in our community.
It just may not be as frequentlyspoken about, and so thank you
(01:52):
for coming on our show andtaking the time to talk about
you and who you are.
When we first connected, simonBen of Thriving Adoptee Podcast
suggested we should connect up,but don't know if he actually
understood that we would spendhours talking to each other,
(02:14):
including just our preparatorycall where we were conversing on
our first meeting for threehours, and then today, in
preparation for this session,and we've already been chatting
it up for almost an hour.
I just now looked and I'm like,oh wow, that was an hour.
It's been an hour, so an hour.
So I'm looking forward to thisconversation on behalf of the
(02:39):
listeners as well and, if youwouldn't mind, kind of dive into
a little bit about what youhave been doing in your life and
what is an upcoming item andwe'll touch on it at the end too
.
But you have an event coming upin March which is also key to
this story and who you are.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I certainly do.
So I believe this airs March20th, so tomorrow my memoir will
be hitting, it will belaunching, and I began working
on it over the eight years inMarch.
So I don't think I ever in amillion years thought I'd write
(03:24):
a memoir, especially when I wasyoung.
I could barely pay attention inclass.
I was a horrible student.
I never showed up, I cut, Icheated, I was just, I was a
mess and I could have paidattention.
I had a real low self-worth andself-esteem and I think
probably I had some ADD, maybedefinitely some learning
(03:46):
disabilities, and I was justterrified of being a
disappointment.
So I think my frontal lobewould shut down when I try
something because I was soafraid that I would be be
disappointed.
My disappoint my parents wasbasically what it was when I was
little.
(04:06):
So I my daughter asked me towrite a memoir about eight years
ago and I had been carryingaround boxes of appointment
books and calendars for you know, journals.
My mother had even given me herjournals for years you know 40,
over 40 years and when sheasked me, I mean there was
(04:30):
something deep inside me thatthought, yeah, that's what I
need to do and you know it wasperfect timing my kids were out
of the house, I had more timeand there wasn't a lot.
I didn't, you know, didn't havea business to run at the time.
I've employed that wasn't, likeyou know.
(04:51):
I had some time to deal with itand I had no idea where it was
going to take me.
I had no idea the whole I wouldgo down.
I had no.
I almost stopped so many timeswriting and generally people
don't write.
It looks like that's somethingthat happened.
That was something that neededto be dealt with.
(05:13):
You know we don't necessarilywrite about good news often.
You know, usually some somepain behind it and most of the
reason I wanted to write wasn'tbecause I had such an
interesting adoption story,although that's what my daughter
wanted.
I wanted to write the figurestuff out, like I.
I had been in reunion manyyears, both sides, but I had so
(05:37):
many questions, I had so many.
You know it was complexrelationship with my adoptive
mom, my mom I call her mom,definitely complex relationship
with my family, my adoptivefamily, and confusion and I, you
know I how I dealt with thingsis I always just pushed them
(05:57):
down.
I pushed them down, I didn'tlook at them, I didn't analyze
them, I didn't try to figure outwhy something felt a certain
way.
I just moved on Like just let'sjust go and.
And so there was so much toonline, because I never felt I
(06:17):
would just push it down andcover it up with something, a
new event or a new thing.
And so I went down the rabbithole for, especially the first
couple of years, really, reallydark.
But I'm out of the rabbit holeand now I get to talk about it
and regurgitate it on mycapacity in book clubs.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, so here, so here you go again and you get to
relive it and talk about it,but maybe from a more center,
grounded, healthier position,having, you know, taken the time
to write it all out foryourself.
It's interesting.
When we were talking inprevious conversation, one of
(06:59):
the things that we both landedon is how much we have in common
and we didn't even know eachother, and that has a theme many
times over with guests andothers in the adoptee community,
and I've always find it verygrounding to have those types of
connections and to be able tohave this level of comfort in
(07:23):
the conversation and we had thatgoing on.
If you wouldn't mind for thelisteners, can you talk a little
bit about being an adoptee andhow you handled that throughout?
You know your maturation of ahuman.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I was adopted in 1957 .
Okay, so that was a long timeago.
I was four months old and Igrew up in Anchorage, alaska,
with what I thought werewonderful parents, but I did not
have anything to compare it to.
So I love my mom so much, butthere I never felt like I was
(08:05):
enough with my mother and Inever analyzed that it could be
because I was adopted.
I mean, that never entered mymind, other than that it was a
problem.
Because I was told that I wasspecial, that I was, that I was
a gift, that I was a gift fromGod, that they had prayed for a
(08:28):
little girl and God had giventhem a little girl, and that my
other mother loved me so muchthat she wanted me to have a
mommy and a daddy and that shewas selfless.
So I had this narrative in myhead of being special.
I did not feel special andnever, ever felt it, ever felt
(08:51):
it.
I felt so less that.
But I didn't know that.
You know, I didn't know that,where that came from.
I just felt always just notenough, and I always wanted to
be like the other kids or alwayswanted to be somebody other
than who I was, and I didn'tknow who I was.
(09:11):
I think that was the issue.
There was zero identity.
I was struggling to find anidentity and I didn't know these
things.
So, yeah, I was a happy adopteeas far as I knew.
But yeah, I mean, I've alwaysbeen an outgoing happy.
I was a happy baby, they said,when I they brought me home.
(09:32):
I was always trying to feelenough.
But I've also just had thisoutgoing personality and fun
loving.
I've never been a depressedperson.
I've certainly been depressedby writing my manuscript.
There is a dark place asbecause some, some bad stuff
(09:55):
happened in my background that Ihad to, you know, dig it.
But I've always been.
That's just the way I'm wired.
You know, I'm not supersensitive.
Like like many, I felt I felt.
If I felt bad, I didn'tidentify it, but I always felt
(10:16):
bad.
Now I can see that.
You know, I was just.
I was just always trying tofeel enough and I never felt
enough.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
I always find that extremely striking when I hear
that.
It does not matter how manytimes I hear it either.
I didn't really understandduring that time period of my
life, but now, throughreflection, I can connect those
dots and depending on how oldyou are when you make that
discovery, it can be as earthshattering as the simplest
(10:50):
little thing in your life priorand I always, I'm always, struck
by it.
I really am.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
You know the adoption narrative that we grew up with.
I think it was brainwashing.
It was really.
It was brainwashing, it'sabsolutely brainwashing and I
mean, what were they to say andwhat were they to do?
How?
I mean, what was the?
What were they to do?
You know, back then, you knowyou were given a baby and it was
like you birthed them yourself.
(11:18):
You know this was supposed tobe your child and you know my,
my brother, who we got threeyears after I was adopted.
He bonded with my mom and.
I thought I did too, but hereally didn't be sensitive like
her.
He was needy, she was.
She was super codependentbecause of the way she grew up
(11:41):
and so it was just.
It worked for them.
I was always independent, youknow, I was outgoing, I could
make friends, I could talk toanybody.
You know those those things.
I always wanted to be on themove and my brother was
completely opposite.
It was a lot like my mom.
First time that I really noticedI felt inadequate is first
(12:03):
grade.
I could not do my numbers.
I couldn't.
I had a problem transitioningfrom like 10 to 11 and 20 to 21,
and you know those things.
And I don't think it wasn'tbecause I wasn't smart, it was
because I was so afraid that Iwasn't going to get.
(12:25):
And when I get afraid, myfrontal lobe completely shuts
down and I cannot do it.
It's a problem with the frontallobe.
It just goes blank out ofterror.
And I remember my parents.
We get so frustrated with me,you know, throw down their hands
on the table and push theirchair back.
How are you helper, you know?
(12:45):
And I just felt like I was.
You know, I was such adisappointment.
And I have this.
You know I've got a lot ofpride.
This is the way I was.
I came here.
I'm a Leo, six times a Leo, soI guess I've got a lot of pride,
and all I wanted is you to beproud of me.
I wanted you to pat me on thehead and say Good, mary, monica,
(13:08):
you did such a great job.
You know, monica, you did this,monica, you did today.
I don't need that anymore.
I'm older, you know, and I'mpast all that.
But gosh, for years I justwanted to be enough and I didn't
feel and never did.
And so in in, that was when Ireally felt inadequate and then
(13:29):
it.
I think that the final, thefinal blow.
But I got to be in like secondgrade.
I think it was when we startedreally reading.
We had those SRA reading cards.
I don't know if you, adam, butI did.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I love those things.
I was thinking about them theother day, Remember when you
would pick one out, you'd readit.
You take the little test, yougo put it back and you go get
the next one because it wasprogressive reading.
Loved them.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So clever and I went up like three reading levels,
like all.
I just progressed so quicklyand I felt good about myself,
you know, and I remember theteacher.
I remember I see him seeing asign outside and asked my mom
what it said and she saidbecause it was P I Z Z A, and
she said that's pizza.
And so in class, you know, theteacher thought she was going to
(14:16):
trick everybody and I said it'spizza.
And I can still remember thevery few times I got accolades
there were very few, right, thatwas a.
That was a huge accolade for me, I think it's but but we had I
I'm assuming it was a census ofsorts and so everybody, you know
, got out the number two pencilsand had to fill in the dots.
(14:38):
And there was a question that Icould not answer.
It did not have an applicableanswer that fit me, and that was
don't remember the details ofit, but are you living with your
real parents, kind of question.
Well, I was living with my realparents, but they're not my
real parents, because I knew Ihad other parents out there, but
I had to.
They are my real parents.
And I went home confused, Ididn't finish the test, I felt
(15:01):
inadequate in class.
All the other kids could do it,I couldn't.
And when I went home and toldmy mom, my father, when I mean
he got really angry and hedidn't I mean I took a you know,
children are self centered weresupposed to be second grade,
but I took it that there wassomething wrong with me, that
the problem wasn't with theschool and the privacy issues
(15:23):
and it was with me, and theymade a huge deal about it.
Went to school, you know,embarrassed me, you know.
I felt like I was the error ofmy being and that and the
reading and all the stuffstopped.
I didn't progress.
It would just stand me rightthere.
I was excited, and so I thinkyou know there's a number of
(15:46):
things that happened and youknow there's certainly a very
abusive, dysfunctional, verysick people that I was adopted
by and even now I feel this likea mean disloyal.
You know I just go guilt forsaying that.
You know, because I love them.
They were my parents.
You know, all I ever wanted wasto for them to love me, you
(16:11):
know.
So I didn't know any of thosethings when I was a kid.
You don't know why you feelcertain ways.
I didn't know that there was anidentity issue.
My brother and I thought wewere.
You know on the outside that itwas cool we were adopted,
because it was like a parlortrick, we were adopted.
Oh well, I wish I was adopted,you know, and.
(16:33):
But in reality it caused somuch confusion for me, so much
confusion, and I didn't knowuntil I started writing my
memoir.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
What a time for all of that to come together to
later in life, I think is sotricky, no different than you
just now describing childhoodand now really coming to terms
with it in a later adulthood.
I'm there with you and I'm manytimes flabbergasted at what I
learned about myself or how Ifeel about some aspect of the
(17:07):
topic.
Well, let's move it forward alittle bit, because we
introduced you not only as anadoptee but as a birth parent,
and I think we should at leastforewarn the listeners a little
bit that the next part of yourstory is definitely not rose
filled.
(17:27):
And yeah, major trigger warningfor those that have
sensitivities for some of thethings that happen in the world,
and to women and theconsequences of those actions.
So why don't we go ahead andtalk a little bit about you as a
birth parent?
Let's start with you talkingabout pregnancy and what that,
(17:49):
what you know, your age, whatthat was entailing for you and
the struggles of being pregnantwith a lot of very
circumstantial conditions.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Well, this was 1973.
So things were different andthis was in Alaska.
I, my parents, were veryCatholic.
We went to every holy day.
We had nuns and priests at ourhouse on the regular.
Father girl, my brother's bedyou know how you hold up a bed
with the wooden slats, you knowthe mattress.
(18:23):
The middle of the night it fell.
The father girl fell on thefloor.
The whole house, should youknow.
We had nuns at our house.
They were at dinner, we were,we went to, we went to mass and
and it was every confession, allof that.
So there was also this, thispurity in our home, this, this,
(18:49):
you know, catholic.
I was married.
I was named Mary Monica afterthe Virgin Mary.
My mother was a virgin when shewas married.
My father used to tell mybrother and that I that that she
was a saint, because hecouldn't get her in the house
until they were married, when wewere children you know when she
wasn't around.
There's just some really weirdthings.
(19:09):
So when I got pregnant, mymother never had a baby.
I didn't, you know, I hadnobody to ask.
You know why am I having lategrants?
I had my fingers swell.
What did it feel like?
You know how was it painful.
You know all those things thatI didn't have anybody to talk to
about.
And being pregnant Back thenthey hid you away, there wasn't,
(19:33):
it wasn't even go to school.
Now, a few years later, itchanged.
But it wasn't that way, youknow, and my friends knew I was
pregnant, but because we wereCatholic, I think partly.
I'm sure it was out of shamethat they wanted me to.
Nobody would find out, but Ithink it was also.
They were thought they wereprotecting me and my parents
(19:54):
were older.
So when my, when I, was adopted, my father was 42 and my mother
was 32.
And that was older back then.
So they had older ideas as well, and and so, being isolated in
all during the last, the winteris pretty lonely and my friends
didn't come over.
I wasn't able to do the thingsthat I used to do, and one of my
(20:18):
survival strategies was to be ajuvenile delinquent.
And my parents my mother, wasvery.
She bought most, almost all mystories.
You know I was a really goodliar, very narcissistic, a
little criminal, and I don't.
When I'm thinking about why Idid those things now I can see
(20:44):
that I just wanted someone tolook up to me.
Now I couldn't get that atschool because I didn't do well,
my academics weren't weren'tgood, the kids that were coming
from the lower 48, because nowthis is a boom town, so we had
had oil discovered, and so whenI'm in junior high in 1970 and
71.
And I didn't get tripled, thatyou know like we had double
(21:08):
shifts.
And now there's, you know, bankkids that you know came from
the lower 48, then nice homesand nice clothes, and you know I
came from a middle class homebut we we weren't cool.
My parents were never cool, theywere old fashioned, right.
My mom was overprotective andso I didn't fit in in school and
(21:29):
I figured there was an eventthat happened with my father, a
very traumatic event, I think.
That's where I just clickedwhen I was 13 and just became as
bad as I could be and andstarted breaking into houses and
vandalizing and fighting.
You know, taking LSD andbreaking out my window and you
(21:52):
know, getting into places Ishould never have been.
You know there was somehorrific things that I saw.
At night and in the wintertimeit's dark, in the summertime
it's light the hardest days.
Five hours in the sun neversets, really in the summer it's
just.
You have this twilight and itwas my guiding light when I
stuck out my window to feel Iwanted to feel I wanted to be a
(22:19):
part of it and I never felt thatat home I was never a part of
it.
My mom, nobody wanted to comehang out at my house because it
was not a cool place.
So being pregnant and isolatedwas a God said in a sense,
because it stopped that activity.
I don't know what my life wouldhave been like had that have
(22:42):
not my juvenile delinquentbehavior.
It's just like now I'm in thehouse with my very Catholic
mother crocheting and saying therosary, so my baby will get
good parents going to see a nunevery week.
You know, it's like a wholedifferent paradigm shift.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
And what I would like us to do is put a little bit
around that and acknowledge thecircumstances in which you just
described the environment, theculture it did shape, how you
were going to go through thatexperience, and so we're going
to spend a lot of time, the restof our discussion, talking
(23:25):
about you as a birth parent.
Walk us through that decisionprocess and how you started
coping with that, and things youtold yourself during that
journey.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
There was never a discussion about what was going
to happen to the baby.
It was never, will.
You know, rovers is way to wentthrough and it was already
available to people in Alaskawhen I got pregnant, but it
wasn't actually Malore 48.
But it would have never been anoption for our Catholic family,
(24:03):
I mean, it was not even noteven for me or for my parents.
So that never came up indiscussion and neither did being
a, you know, putting the babyup for an option, which is what
we called it back then.
It was just assumed.
It was no conversation, it'sjust you're going to go see a
nun, I found.
(24:23):
You know you have a choice.
You can either go to FairbanksI found a school, pregnant
mother, pregnant girls, andthere's one in Seattle or you
can stay here.
They have, you know, classesfor girls at the advent, the
(24:43):
admin building here, and so youcan go with other pregnant girls
.
And I was 15.
So I was, I was, I had no job,I had, I was just, I was very
mature, just a little, just alittle girl.
You know, really I was, and soI mean I just went along with
the program and the whole time,especially when I started, you
(25:05):
know, when the my baby startedgrowing and I could feel her
moving and, oh my gosh, I, I,they took me to see sister Mary
Claire, every week or everyother week depending, and every
time that I went to the OBGYNappointment I would either have
a conversation with sisterClaire or go see her, because
she wanted to be apprised of howher apprised goose was cooking,
(25:28):
you know.
And so I, I again, wantedsomeone to care about me, and I
love sister Claire.
She was so, so darling oh,you're just a darling and she
had a New York accent and shewas an older lady and she had a
(25:49):
big navy blue, you know, with a,with a veil, with white around
her face, and she was just sokind and so sweet and we just
hit it off right away.
And but the back of my mind, Ialways knew that her job was to
make friends with the birthmother and take her baby, give
(26:12):
them to somebody better to raise.
That's always what I knew inthe back of my mind.
Yet I wanted to love her at thesame time, you know.
So I mean, you think about itwith what a mind fuck sorry, but
it just is.
You know, and I'm lookingforward to seeing her because I
have nowhere to, you know,nothing, nobody's coming over,
(26:33):
and I go see her and I know inthe back of my mind that that's
what's going to happen.
And I do know I did.
There is absolutely no freakingway.
And I mean I, I was completelyunder my parents thumb except
for one thing, and that was Iwanted to see my baby.
(26:54):
That was the only human thatwas my relative in the world
that I knew.
Of my only blood relative I hadnobody, my whole family.
I even wrote in my journalbecause my mom bought us a
journal.
She knew I needed a journal togo through this and I said my
mom and my brother and I aren'trelated because we're both
(27:17):
adopted and my parents aren'trelated to each other and
they're not related to us either.
We're just all strangers, youknow we just.
I just felt like a stranger inthat house, and so to have
somebody that looked like me,that was a part of me, was like
that's all I cared about andthat's all I did.
(27:37):
That's all I hung on to isbeing able to see her.
Now, you didn't get to see yourbaby at the Catholic hospital
you couldn't.
At the other hospital thatwasn't Catholic, but not at the
Catholic hospital they didn'tlet you see your babies.
But I groomed Sister Clairefrom the beginning to let me see
my baby and I knew at the verylast minute, if they wouldn't
(27:59):
let me see her, I would.
I would.
I'd just hold her around some.
Sorry, you don't get my baby,I'm not signing these papers
unless I get to see her and holdher.
And anyway I didn't have to gothat far.
That was the you know cause Inever defied my parents back
then.
You just, I mean I would sneakaround and I would lie and I
(28:20):
would.
You know all those things.
But you know, if you look atyour parents and even when
they're talking to you, if youlook away or look down or roll
your eyes, never did anythinglike that.
I mean slap across the face.
My mother was a rager, you knowshe's terrified me and my father
.
I was never afraid of my daduntil he beat me with a wire
(28:42):
hanger, the most excruciatingthing I've ever felt.
I mean I've had 11 pound babies, a baby, you know, natural
childbirth, and it had thatdidn't hold the candle to a wire
hanger beating.
I'm telling you I don't, Ididn't.
After the beating I neverreally I knew it wouldn't happen
again.
I guess I don't know how I knewit, but nobody ever said they
(29:04):
were sorry or anything.
It was just pushed out of therug and I hit it from, you know,
the authorities, because I lovemy parents and I didn't want to
be taken out of the home and mymother had grew me from young
that she was terrified of losingme because I was an adoptee.
You know, she's terrified ofthe mom coming back and taking
(29:25):
me and I, my brother and I heardthis all the time and so even
when things got really really,really bad at home before I got
pregnant and I wanted to runaway more than anything in the
whole world, I would never havedone it because it would have
hurt my mom, because I loved herso much.
You know, here I am going tothe nun and I did.
She said I'll send a note tothe hospital and see if they'll
(29:52):
agree to let me see your baby.
And so one day I'd go in and wehadn't, you know, talked about
the parents or anything and shehadn't found any parents.
But closer to the end she hadfound parents and she, you know,
said I found the perfect coupleto adopt your baby.
(30:13):
They're so wonderful, I mean,they were presented with such
enthusiasm that I mean I feltlike I was going to throw up and
pass out.
I mean, I got clammy in mymouth full with saliva, you know
, and at the whole time I actedhappy.
Oh, good good.
You know, I'm always wanting tobe approved on.
(30:35):
You know, f, and I felt like Iwas just in the end of a dark
tunnel.
You know, there's a caveat thatwe didn't talk about, and that
is that I had stuck out mybedroom window a lot and I had
this virgin mentality because itwent hammered home in my home
(30:56):
and I knew that I'd make themproud subconsciously if I were a
virgin.
I don't think it was ever aconversation that I had with my
parents, other than my father'svery inappropriate raging at me
at one point, which is in mybook, and it was probably one of
the most horrific things I'vebeen through, abuse-wise.
(31:17):
Thank God I did some EMDR in2020,.
You know, I had 11 big teatraumas.
11 big tea traumas Like notlittle tea traumas 10 millions
living in a house that you wereconstantly being gaslit, but
these were 11 big tea traumasand my therapist, you know, was
(31:39):
just like wow, I've never seenso many.
And you know, I know that Icame to this life, this monarchy
, you know, ended up on planetEarth, being able to handle it.
You know, I'm strong.
I have an ability to repress,push things down, block things
(32:01):
out, disassociate.
My brain protected me from somuch and I've had to unwind that
, most of it, in writing thismemoir and you get to unwind it
with me.
You get to, you know, discoverthe things that I discover as
I'm discovering it.
I mean, it's like becausethat's what I needed to do and
(32:23):
there's so much that still mybrain is protecting me from and
I'm grateful for that.
So I stuck up my bedroom windowand got raped at 15 by a 19 year
old heroin addict and I hadknown him and I blamed myself.
I blamed myself and I know thatat the time I didn't know
(32:45):
anything about.
You know, back then rape waswhen you were attacked in a dark
alley.
You know you had bruises, youscreamed, you know, you didn't
know you're a seller and youknow that whole thing.
And this was not the case.
I knew him.
I didn't want to be intimatewith him.
He was older, he was scary, Ididn't, you know.
(33:06):
And so the way I wired it in mybrain, I felt guilty and I kept
it a secret.
So when my parents were yellingat me who was it what you know?
Broken hearted that theirdaughter is a slut, you know
which is what my mind told me?
I was the first time I everdefied them.
(33:26):
I didn't answer.
I just I couldn't, because if Idid, they would have made a
huge deal out of it, like theydid with the census, and
humiliated me and I would havebeen.
I mean, it was just.
It was so tragic, you know, andI did not clear that until I
was 60, writing my memoir.
(33:48):
It took me almost two years ofwriting over and over again and
going over it with my friendsand my mother and until I could
see it from an adult perspectivebecause my brain had been, I
was still seeing so much with achild's stuff mind, and there's
so many other things that I didas well.
(34:08):
So the that was, you know,something I never told anybody
until I had to meet my daughter.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, let's take a moment for the listeners.
It's a lot to process to hearsomeone talk about the pressures
of living in a strict religioushome, to know what it's like to
be 15.
I know we feel old, but it'snot like it was so distant.
(34:39):
I can't remember to be violatedand to not feel capable of
speaking of that.
That's a very heavy thing tohear and it's a very heavy thing
to process and so to writeabout it, to share about it
today, it's gotta be a littlebit draining.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, see, that's what I was saying.
I get to regurgitate it inpodcasts and book clubs.
It does not go away.
But you know, this is the thing, and I'm just really quick.
I wanna say this you know Iwrote this.
I realized I was writing itbecause my daughter wanted me to
and then I realized there wasmore that I needed to heal, that
(35:21):
I didn't even realize I neededto and then I could have stopped
at any time.
I'm doing this because, gosh, somany people have related to
just the essays I write on mywebsite.
I mean I feel like I'm notalone.
I mean not everybody's beengreat, thank God, but we've all
(35:42):
had struggles and humiliationsand difficulties, you know, and
when I hear somebody else's, andespecially told with such
honesty, that I mean I feel likeI can speak up to, like my
secrets aren't so bad.
You know what I mean, and soyou know the book's not
(36:02):
depressing.
By the way, it's got somedefinite, you know, difficult
subject matter, but it's writtenlike a novel and it's
entertaining and you knowhealing and parts of it are
funny and some of it's very sad,but, man, I survive, I survive,
(36:24):
I'm a survivor.
You know what I mean.
I thrive today, you know, andthis did not take me down being
an adoptee, being raped, beingabused, being a birth mother,
having to lose my child toadoption, all the other shit
that's happened in the whole ofthe years that I've been on the
(36:46):
planet and there's been a lot ofother stuff, right, none of it
took me down.
Yeah, it was hard and yeah Imean, but I believe anybody can
if they want to heal.
It is not unique to just a few.
You know it is available andthere's so much out there to
(37:09):
help us today If there wasn'tback in the day, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Nobody talked about it.
You know, it was all hush hush.
Thank goodness for podcasts.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, what I've also heard in this conversation is
how you have set aside any shamethat you may have had or felt
during that time period and, asan adult, and because of all the
things that you have done towork on you and heal you and
share out you and survive, theshame component of it is not
(37:44):
coming through and I thinkthat's a really good thing to
celebrate.
So congratulations it's I knowit's a very difficult thing to
let go.
Well, I want us to stick alittle bit to you.
Ultimately did relinquish yourdaughter.
It was a girl.
You referenced her as a her afew times now in our
(38:07):
conversation and you, from thatpoint until when, always knew
you were going to do what.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
So the whole time I was pregnant, the only thing I
hung on to was 18 years.
That was it 18 years.
I counted the years Everybirthday.
Every birthday I'd sit and I'dthink about her, knowing that
that she would be thinking aboutme too.
(38:35):
And on my birthday, like my16th birthday, I just
relinquished my daughter.
It was probably one of the mostdepressing days of my life.
It was dark and gray, july 27thin Alaska.
Alaska summers could bemiserable and nobody wanted to
come over, nobody wanted to hangout with me, and it was just
(38:56):
morose and depressing.
That was.
My baby was just not even amonth old and I thought, and I
wrote in my journal my othermother is thinking about me,
must be thinking about me.
I think about my baby all thetime.
It's so weird thinking thatsomebody's thinking about you
(39:19):
that you don't even know, likemy mom thinking about me and my
birthday.
That's kind of how I got throughthose 18 years, other than lots
of drugs and alcohol, because Ispiraled out of control.
We moved about nine monthslater to the lower 48 in
California where I live nowSacramento area and not long
(39:43):
after that my father passed, acouple of years later and I had
a very sick, complexrelationship with my father.
He was abusive and favored me.
It's just gross.
And so when he died, I went.
(40:03):
I just started drinking andgoing up to the bar every night
and sleeping with any guy thatwould take me home, looking for
a daddy, looking for someone toreplace the only person that
really gave me attention my momdidn't drop me when we got my
brother and I was such a mess.
And then I found Black Label,which is Johnny Walker Black on
(40:29):
the rocks and that's what Idrank.
And it was, oh my gosh, it tookcare of all of it.
I could have a drink and itwould all melt away All the pain
I felt.
Enough for the first time.
It worked until it stoppedworking At the end.
(40:50):
I mean, I was drugs, cocaine,so I could drink more.
But I just hung on to the ideathat in 18 years I can find her
and I would look for her.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Well, you did, you did look and you did find her,
and so fast forward us to kindof where you are today in the
context of that relationship.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Oh my gosh, she looks just like me.
We FaceTime.
She's been going through someschool stuff.
She was changing careers in thelast two years so we don't we
weren't talking as often, butshe lives in Grand Rapids,
michigan, and she turned 50 inJune and I went back for my
granddaughter's graduation party.
(41:36):
She's going to Michigan Stateand she had a big party and my
daughter didn't want tocelebrate her birthday.
She doesn't like birthdays.
Interesting, right she was.
She was used to sit by thewindow waiting for me to come
for her cry and when she waseight I had given the sister to
(41:59):
give to the parents of VirginMary Statue and she had taken it
to school as a show and tellthe talk.
Whatever her birth mother hadgiven it to her.
It was packed in a bag and itfell out and got a little dent
in the virgin's head.
You know, it was just troubling.
You know to her her prizedpossession, but it sits next to
(42:21):
her bed still today, always has.
I was really surprised to seeit there and she's always been
there.
Can we were reunited when sheturned 18?
And that was incredible.
But now we have the sameclothes on our closet, we have.
We talk alike, we walk alike.
We are both like bulls in achina shop.
(42:41):
We are both bright, but noteducated per se.
Smart, she's real smart, and Ialways thought I was stupid.
I'm not.
I'm pretty smart too, you know,just a different kind of smart,
not the book smart, Although Iwrote a damn book, I mean, you
know, and I've had a lot ofsuccess in my life.
(43:03):
So, yeah, I've got some smarts,but, and so is she.
And but again, you know, shehad a really good family.
She got a really good family,oh my gosh.
So I mean, everything's notperfect, you know, never is.
But man, she, she's a wonderfulparents.
I was envious of her parents.
I wish I had parents like that,you know, although I would
(43:27):
never want to not have myparents, you know, because
they're my parents.
It's like you wipe them away.
They're my parents even thoughthey were.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, that's just one of the more unique things about
adoption and being adopted isthat, despite or in spite, you
decide which of those two wordsyou want to use, and their
definition of who you ended upwith as parents.
Those are your parents and we.
(43:58):
We can't do anythingdifferently about that.
It's just the fact and yeah,it's.
It's not our would-a, should-a,could-a, it just is.
And it is very hard sometimesto to come to terms with that.
I don't, I don't really carewho you are, it's just sometimes
hard.
It is.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
I don't know, it's very hard to unwind.
You know, I've heard adopteesbeing really angry and, you know
, wish they'd never been adopted.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
We have a tendency not every adoptee, but many and
those that I talk to we haveattachment issues, banding mint
issues, and we have trust issues, and so you put those all in
one little human ball of fire.
So you're going to get what youget and you know that's just
(44:51):
where we're, you know that'sjust where it is and it doesn't.
It's another one of thosethings we can't apologize for.
There's nothing to apologizefor.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And you know, I don't , I don't anymore, I don't know
that I ever really did apologizefor that, but I definitely.
I've definitely everybody'swired a little differently when
it comes to your parents.
You know, and you know I.
Just I don't, and you know I.
This is the other thing.
It's just I've done a lot ofwork on myself.
(45:21):
I got sober 40 years ago.
On tomorrow, when this airs,it'll be the 21st tomorrow and I
will have 40 years ofcontinuous sobriety, clean drugs
at alcohol and and that's whenmy, my healing journey really
began I'd already found mybiological family.
(45:41):
I found them in 1980.
And that that was, that washuge.
And then in 91, I was readingon my daughter and that that did
some healing.
And by the time I was readingon my daughter, I was sober.
I was sober up seven years, Ithink.
Incidentally, she ended upgetting sober.
She's just like me, just like me, and she's going to be sober up
(46:03):
April, 30 years.
So you know, the apple doesn'tfall, fall far from the tree.
We're so much alike and at thesame time we're so much alike
that we annoy each other Becausethose character defects we both
have the same ones, and I seethem in her and she sees them in
(46:25):
me.
It's a mirror.
Things that irritate me aboutmyself I see in her.
So you know, we have had ourcomplexities for sure in our
relationship.
But man, she'll call me, andit's generally on a Sunday, and
she'll call me and it looks likeshe just wants me to pull her
out of a hole, like I don't knowwhat's wrong.
I'm just so sad.
(46:45):
I don't know what's wrong andit's Sunday, it's the day I
related to this, the day I gavebirth, and she wants, she goes,
and I remember one her, herdaughter, comes over, my
granddaughter mommy what's wrong?
Why are you crying?
She goes.
I just miss grandma.
So she doesn't identify.
She's not really out of the fogper se.
She does, she goes.
I don't want to do that.
(47:06):
I don't want to go to fog.
I don't want to listen to allmy may already angry enough, but
you know.
So she's not there, but she, youknow, she has identified it.
You know I miss grandma, youknow, and I miss all the stuff,
all the things that I can't be apart of and I can't be either.
(47:27):
It's or my birth, my birthfamily adopted out of Canada and
I go back and forth.
The Canada, my family's alllike I'm indigenous, I'm a third
creed in the end, and I didn't.
I mean I always had a, you know, always felt like I wanted to
be, Didn't know I was until Ifound my family.
(47:49):
But they have family reunions,we put our handprints on TPs, we
have dried meat, we do all thethings you know, and both sides
of my family and and I miss itall.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
It's very hard to to wrap our brains around that.
Prior to us hitting the recordbutton today, we were talking
about a couple of differentthings and at you talking about
your heritage and your largefamily going and traveling to
(48:22):
see each other.
We had just talked aboutsomething very similar I shared
with you.
I hold the Bible of my adoptedmaternal grandmother and in her
era, that's where all of thefamily information is stored,
and we were I don't even knowwhy we got here Listeners.
(48:44):
I don't know how Monica and Igot here.
In all honesty, we'll just kindof laugh a little bit because
we don't know how we got here,but we were kind of talking
about end of life.
For some reason I brought it upand in the context of this
Bible and I shared with you.
I've been thinking about thisBible today specifically and I
(49:06):
need to make some decisionsabout it, because it's not my
current immediate family, it'snot their heritage, it's my
adopted family's heritage and itmeans something to me, which is
why I have it.
But when I pass and someone hasto clean my stuff out, unless
(49:30):
I'm explicit about that thing,I'm afraid someone's going to
throw it in the trash, and it is.
It is a family heirloom and soI need to make sure my nephew
gets it or my niece, who areactually part of the bloodline,
the official bloodline.
And even though we shared thatback and forth and you and I
(49:52):
were talking just about thethings we've missed as adoptees
with our biological family, atthe same time I look over at my
maternal biological family I'veshared.
It's a very large family andthey're very close and I love
watching them and how they aretight to each other and how
they'll pull apart, becausethat's what families do and they
(50:14):
come back together and they'retight and I kind of missed that
and I miss, I miss it, I missedit and it's a whole and it's
really unfortunate.
It was stolen.
Well, definitely not, nothonored, definitely not honored
for sure.
And yeah, it's complex.
(50:36):
It's complex.
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I feel like I got ripped off.
You know, I mean I've acceptedit and I mean I've lived with it
for very long time.
I've been in reunion with mybiological family like I don't
know 43, 44 years, my daughter,you know what 50 years and what
32 years actually, and 33 weeks,my goodness, and.
(51:00):
But I don't think I'll evertruly get over the grief of what
I lost and I don't, and it'sokay, you know, I've accepted
that this, this is my destinyand these are the things that I
get to heal.
It's made me a better person,it's made me kinder, it's made
(51:20):
me more compassionate and,ultimately, I think that's
that's the healing componentthat I needed and what happened
in their lives that made them dothe things that they did.
Hurt people, hurt people right.
And and when I can step awayfrom that and look at them from
a different lens into their life.
(51:41):
I've heard a lot of adoptees.
They're angry at their birthparents for relinquishing them,
and particularly their birth,birth months.
And I never have been everangry.
I never got to meet her.
She died when I was seven was awhole that I never got.
I never had to ask her why orwhat the background was.
(52:02):
I mean I only could listen tostories from other people about
her.
I never, ever doubted that sheloved doesn't mean that I didn't
have that primal wound in thatwhole, but in my mind and in my
heart I never felt that shedidn't love me or want me and I
think that might be because Ireally pushed and I loved my
(52:24):
baby with my entire heart, mywhole being.
I love that.
The birth mothers so much painand so much guilt and so much
shame right, and I had a lot ofthat as well.
But even passion for theadoptees, it just want to know
things.
You know it's our birthright toknow where we came from and
(52:46):
what the hell happened and whyyou didn't keep me.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
When we were speaking earlier, we talked about what
makes your story and the factthat you've decided to put a pen
to paper and what makes you agreat advocate in the community
is that connection betweenunderstanding what it's like to
be an adoptee and beingcomfortable in your adoptee skin
(53:12):
, but also having thatexperience of birth parent under
very ugly conditions andneeding to relinquish, and
living through that side, whichmight have balanced for you from
the time you gave birth untilshe was 18, your mindset of
(53:34):
knowing.
Okay, I get this whole adoptedparent, birth parent, adoptee
thing a little differently.
I'm living a different side ofthat.
It's powerful.
I have mentioned this manytimes.
I will plug this book just asmuch as I'll plug your book,
which is Candace Cahill's book,Thank you.
She speaks very openly abouther experience as a birth parent
(53:58):
and relinquishing.
I loved it from the concept of.
I needed to read that.
I needed to hear that side ofthe story because I wasn't going
to hear it from my birth mother.
It really humbled me and Ithink your story is another
iteration of that type ofconversation that we need to
(54:19):
hear.
So I appreciate that you'vecome on the show today to share
that with the listeners.
Yeah, Candice's book.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Goodbye Again.
Excellent, she did a reallygood job and man kindred spirit
there.
You know my book the name of itis Practically Still A Virgin.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
I'm looking forward to the opportunity tomorrow to
order my own official copy andgo from there, as we're working
to close out today, and there isso much more we could talk
about, and so you know how Ifeel you are always welcome here
, but if there is a piece ofthis journey that you would like
(55:08):
to make sure we touch on beforewe say adios for today, what
would that be?
I?
Speaker 1 (55:14):
didn't talk about a lot of the stuff that happened,
especially the reunion with myfamily, and I did get to my
father and I was there in hisdeathbed in 2018.
You know, it was the samehospital where I was
relinquished and I mean, I wasthere for four days in this
(55:35):
hospital.
It was health care.
It's not like hospice, whereyou actually have, you know,
you're in the hospital and youhave a room where you could all
hang out with family.
It's like completely different,lisa, and it was so painful in
that my siblings were tellingstories about my dad, stories
that I was missing from, and itwas just such a double-edged
(55:58):
sword.
I got to hear these wonderfulstories but I was absent from
them.
I didn't get that kind of a dad.
I got the kind of dad that'sabusive and, oh man, I mean that
was such a gift.
At the same time, it was sopainful.
This one day, I mean oneafternoon, I just needed to get
(56:21):
out of there and walk and I knewthat I was relinquished.
I was born at that hospital andI thought there's no way it
would still be there.
Well, the ward where it wasdark, the doors were all closed.
You could see the sign thatsaid nursery number, whatever on
it on the door.
(56:41):
I went through those halls andI saw those windows and I saw
those rooms and it was a fullcircle because I was
relinquished at the hospital butthen I got to be there with my
father at the end of this life.
It was like a full circle.
So this is so much, so muchthat I am grateful for, and even
(57:07):
the bad stuff, because I havethis absolutely open heart today
because it got broken open.
So the book actually is onpre-order today.
You can pre-order it.
So anybody who's listening justgo to Amazon or review by books
(57:27):
in a scope.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Play by this book.
Well, thank you.
Thank you again for being onthe show and opening up more of
your heart to our listeners andsharing out some of those
extremely painful pieces.
We do appreciate it and you'rewelcome here anytime, so thank
you again.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Thank you so much, Lysanne.
It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
Come share.
(58:13):
No need for a book.
Lisa and I were so thankful in that my siblings
were telling stories about mydad, stories that I was missing,
and it was just such adouble-edged sword.
I got to hear these wonderfulstories, but I was absent from
them.
Speaker 2 (00:37):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced-basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, identity,life search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, monica Hall.
Monica comes to us from thegreat state of California today.
(00:58):
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 1 (01:01):
Thank you, Lisa Ann.
Speaker 2 (01:04):
Well, we're excited to have you on board today, and
I was wondering if you couldkick us off with a little bit
about yourself.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Well, I am an adoptee first and then I'm a birth
parent.
So a dual threat or a veryconfused human identity issues
and grief and joy and just awhole mix of everything.
Yes, I am.
Speaker 2 (01:32):
That's a lot to put into a sentence and I appreciate
that you've kicked us off with.
I am an adoptee and a birthparent and we know that
combination is not new forpeople in our community.
It just may not be as frequentlyspoken about, and so thank you
(01:52):
for coming on our show andtaking the time to talk about
you and who you are.
When we first connected, simonBen of Thriving Adoptee Podcast
suggested we should connect up,but don't know if he actually
understood that we would spendhours talking to each other,
(02:14):
including just our preparatorycall where we were conversing on
our first meeting for threehours, and then today, in
preparation for this session,and we've already been chatting
it up for almost an hour.
I just now looked and I'm like,oh wow, that was an hour.
It's been an hour, so an hour.
So I'm looking forward to thisconversation on behalf of the
(02:39):
listeners as well and, if youwouldn't mind, kind of dive into
a little bit about what youhave been doing in your life and
what is an upcoming item andwe'll touch on it at the end too
.
But you have an event coming upin March which is also key to
this story and who you are.
Speaker 1 (03:03):
I certainly do.
So I believe this airs March20th, so tomorrow my memoir will
be hitting, it will belaunching, and I began working
on it over the eight years inMarch.
So I don't think I ever in amillion years thought I'd write
(03:24):
a memoir, especially when I wasyoung.
I could barely pay attention inclass.
I was a horrible student.
I never showed up, I cut, Icheated, I was just, I was a
mess and I could have paidattention.
I had a real low self-worth andself-esteem and I think
probably I had some ADD, maybedefinitely some learning
(03:46):
disabilities, and I was justterrified of being a
disappointment.
So I think my frontal lobewould shut down when I try
something because I was soafraid that I would be be
disappointed.
My disappoint my parents wasbasically what it was when I was
little.
(04:06):
So I my daughter asked me towrite a memoir about eight years
ago and I had been carryingaround boxes of appointment
books and calendars for you know, journals.
My mother had even given me herjournals for years you know 40,
over 40 years and when sheasked me, I mean there was
(04:30):
something deep inside me thatthought, yeah, that's what I
need to do and you know it wasperfect timing my kids were out
of the house, I had more timeand there wasn't a lot.
I didn't, you know, didn't havea business to run at the time.
I've employed that wasn't, likeyou know.
(04:51):
I had some time to deal with itand I had no idea where it was
going to take me.
I had no idea the whole I wouldgo down.
I had no.
I almost stopped so many timeswriting and generally people
don't write.
It looks like that's somethingthat happened.
That was something that neededto be dealt with.
(05:13):
You know we don't necessarilywrite about good news often.
You know, usually some somepain behind it and most of the
reason I wanted to write wasn'tbecause I had such an
interesting adoption story,although that's what my daughter
wanted.
I wanted to write the figurestuff out, like I.
I had been in reunion manyyears, both sides, but I had so
(05:37):
many questions, I had so many.
You know it was complexrelationship with my adoptive
mom, my mom I call her mom,definitely complex relationship
with my family, my adoptivefamily, and confusion and I, you
know I how I dealt with thingsis I always just pushed them
(05:57):
down.
I pushed them down, I didn'tlook at them, I didn't analyze
them, I didn't try to figure outwhy something felt a certain
way.
I just moved on Like just let'sjust go and.
And so there was so much toonline, because I never felt I
(06:17):
would just push it down andcover it up with something, a
new event or a new thing.
And so I went down the rabbithole for, especially the first
couple of years, really, reallydark.
But I'm out of the rabbit holeand now I get to talk about it
and regurgitate it on mycapacity in book clubs.
Speaker 2 (06:38):
Yeah, so here, so here you go again and you get to
relive it and talk about it,but maybe from a more center,
grounded, healthier position,having, you know, taken the time
to write it all out foryourself.
It's interesting.
When we were talking inprevious conversation, one of
(06:59):
the things that we both landedon is how much we have in common
and we didn't even know eachother, and that has a theme many
times over with guests andothers in the adoptee community,
and I've always find it verygrounding to have those types of
connections and to be able tohave this level of comfort in
(07:23):
the conversation and we had thatgoing on.
If you wouldn't mind for thelisteners, can you talk a little
bit about being an adoptee andhow you handled that throughout?
You know your maturation of ahuman.
Speaker 1 (07:38):
I was adopted in 1957 .
Okay, so that was a long timeago.
I was four months old and Igrew up in Anchorage, alaska,
with what I thought werewonderful parents, but I did not
have anything to compare it to.
So I love my mom so much, butthere I never felt like I was
(08:05):
enough with my mother and Inever analyzed that it could be
because I was adopted.
I mean, that never entered mymind, other than that it was a
problem.
Because I was told that I wasspecial, that I was, that I was
a gift, that I was a gift fromGod, that they had prayed for a
(08:28):
little girl and God had giventhem a little girl, and that my
other mother loved me so muchthat she wanted me to have a
mommy and a daddy and that shewas selfless.
So I had this narrative in myhead of being special.
I did not feel special andnever, ever felt it, ever felt
(08:51):
it.
I felt so less that.
But I didn't know that.
You know, I didn't know that,where that came from.
I just felt always just notenough, and I always wanted to
be like the other kids or alwayswanted to be somebody other
than who I was, and I didn'tknow who I was.
(09:11):
I think that was the issue.
There was zero identity.
I was struggling to find anidentity and I didn't know these
things.
So, yeah, I was a happy adopteeas far as I knew.
But yeah, I mean, I've alwaysbeen an outgoing happy.
I was a happy baby, they said,when I they brought me home.
(09:32):
I was always trying to feelenough.
But I've also just had thisoutgoing personality and fun
loving.
I've never been a depressedperson.
I've certainly been depressedby writing my manuscript.
There is a dark place asbecause some, some bad stuff
(09:55):
happened in my background that Ihad to, you know, dig it.
But I've always been.
That's just the way I'm wired.
You know, I'm not supersensitive.
Like like many, I felt I felt.
If I felt bad, I didn'tidentify it, but I always felt
(10:16):
bad.
Now I can see that.
You know, I was just.
I was just always trying tofeel enough and I never felt
enough.
Speaker 2 (10:26):
I always find that extremely striking when I hear
that.
It does not matter how manytimes I hear it either.
I didn't really understandduring that time period of my
life, but now, throughreflection, I can connect those
dots and depending on how oldyou are when you make that
discovery, it can be as earthshattering as the simplest
(10:50):
little thing in your life priorand I always, I'm always, struck
by it.
I really am.
Speaker 1 (10:56):
You know the adoption narrative that we grew up with.
I think it was brainwashing.
It was really.
It was brainwashing, it'sabsolutely brainwashing and I
mean, what were they to say andwhat were they to do?
How?
I mean, what was the?
What were they to do?
You know, back then, you knowyou were given a baby and it was
like you birthed them yourself.
(11:18):
You know this was supposed tobe your child and you know my,
my brother, who we got threeyears after I was adopted.
He bonded with my mom and.
I thought I did too, but hereally didn't be sensitive like
her.
He was needy, she was.
She was super codependentbecause of the way she grew up
(11:41):
and so it was just.
It worked for them.
I was always independent, youknow, I was outgoing, I could
make friends, I could talk toanybody.
You know those those things.
I always wanted to be on themove and my brother was
completely opposite.
It was a lot like my mom.
First time that I really noticedI felt inadequate is first
(12:03):
grade.
I could not do my numbers.
I couldn't.
I had a problem transitioningfrom like 10 to 11 and 20 to 21,
and you know those things.
And I don't think it wasn'tbecause I wasn't smart, it was
because I was so afraid that Iwasn't going to get.
(12:25):
And when I get afraid, myfrontal lobe completely shuts
down and I cannot do it.
It's a problem with the frontallobe.
It just goes blank out ofterror.
And I remember my parents.
We get so frustrated with me,you know, throw down their hands
on the table and push theirchair back.
How are you helper, you know?
(12:45):
And I just felt like I was.
You know, I was such adisappointment.
And I have this.
You know I've got a lot ofpride.
This is the way I was.
I came here.
I'm a Leo, six times a Leo, soI guess I've got a lot of pride,
and all I wanted is you to beproud of me.
I wanted you to pat me on thehead and say Good, mary, monica,
(13:08):
you did such a great job.
You know, monica, you did this,monica, you did today.
I don't need that anymore.
I'm older, you know, and I'mpast all that.
But gosh, for years I justwanted to be enough and I didn't
feel and never did.
And so in in, that was when Ireally felt inadequate and then
(13:29):
it.
I think that the final, thefinal blow.
But I got to be in like secondgrade.
I think it was when we startedreally reading.
We had those SRA reading cards.
I don't know if you, adam, butI did.
Speaker 2 (13:41):
I love those things.
I was thinking about them theother day, Remember when you
would pick one out, you'd readit.
You take the little test, yougo put it back and you go get
the next one because it wasprogressive reading.
Loved them.
Speaker 1 (13:53):
So clever and I went up like three reading levels,
like all.
I just progressed so quicklyand I felt good about myself,
you know, and I remember theteacher.
I remember I see him seeing asign outside and asked my mom
what it said and she saidbecause it was P I Z Z A, and
she said that's pizza.
And so in class, you know, theteacher thought she was going to
(14:16):
trick everybody and I said it'spizza.
And I can still remember thevery few times I got accolades
there were very few, right, thatwas a.
That was a huge accolade for me, I think it's but but we had I
I'm assuming it was a census ofsorts and so everybody, you know
, got out the number two pencilsand had to fill in the dots.
(14:38):
And there was a question that Icould not answer.
It did not have an applicableanswer that fit me, and that was
don't remember the details ofit, but are you living with your
real parents, kind of question.
Well, I was living with my realparents, but they're not my
real parents, because I knew Ihad other parents out there, but
I had to.
They are my real parents.
And I went home confused, Ididn't finish the test, I felt
(15:01):
inadequate in class.
All the other kids could do it,I couldn't.
And when I went home and toldmy mom, my father, when I mean
he got really angry and hedidn't I mean I took a you know,
children are self centered weresupposed to be second grade,
but I took it that there wassomething wrong with me, that
the problem wasn't with theschool and the privacy issues
(15:23):
and it was with me, and theymade a huge deal about it.
Went to school, you know,embarrassed me, you know.
I felt like I was the error ofmy being and that and the
reading and all the stuffstopped.
I didn't progress.
It would just stand me rightthere.
I was excited, and so I thinkyou know there's a number of
(15:46):
things that happened and youknow there's certainly a very
abusive, dysfunctional, verysick people that I was adopted
by and even now I feel this likea mean disloyal.
You know I just go guilt forsaying that.
You know, because I love them.
They were my parents.
You know, all I ever wanted wasto for them to love me, you
(16:11):
know.
So I didn't know any of thosethings when I was a kid.
You don't know why you feelcertain ways.
I didn't know that there was anidentity issue.
My brother and I thought wewere.
You know on the outside that itwas cool we were adopted,
because it was like a parlortrick, we were adopted.
Oh well, I wish I was adopted,you know, and.
(16:33):
But in reality it caused somuch confusion for me, so much
confusion, and I didn't knowuntil I started writing my
memoir.
Speaker 2 (16:43):
What a time for all of that to come together to
later in life, I think is sotricky, no different than you
just now describing childhoodand now really coming to terms
with it in a later adulthood.
I'm there with you and I'm manytimes flabbergasted at what I
learned about myself or how Ifeel about some aspect of the
(17:07):
topic.
Well, let's move it forward alittle bit, because we
introduced you not only as anadoptee but as a birth parent,
and I think we should at leastforewarn the listeners a little
bit that the next part of yourstory is definitely not rose
filled.
(17:27):
And yeah, major trigger warningfor those that have
sensitivities for some of thethings that happen in the world,
and to women and theconsequences of those actions.
So why don't we go ahead andtalk a little bit about you as a
birth parent?
Let's start with you talkingabout pregnancy and what that,
(17:49):
what you know, your age, whatthat was entailing for you and
the struggles of being pregnantwith a lot of very
circumstantial conditions.
Speaker 1 (18:01):
Well, this was 1973.
So things were different andthis was in Alaska.
I, my parents, were veryCatholic.
We went to every holy day.
We had nuns and priests at ourhouse on the regular.
Father girl, my brother's bedyou know how you hold up a bed
with the wooden slats, you knowthe mattress.
(18:23):
The middle of the night it fell.
The father girl fell on thefloor.
The whole house, should youknow.
We had nuns at our house.
They were at dinner, we were,we went to, we went to mass and
and it was every confession, allof that.
So there was also this, thispurity in our home, this, this,
(18:49):
you know, catholic.
I was married.
I was named Mary Monica afterthe Virgin Mary.
My mother was a virgin when shewas married.
My father used to tell mybrother and that I that that she
was a saint, because hecouldn't get her in the house
until they were married, when wewere children you know when she
wasn't around.
There's just some really weirdthings.
(19:09):
So when I got pregnant, mymother never had a baby.
I didn't, you know, I hadnobody to ask.
You know why am I having lategrants?
I had my fingers swell.
What did it feel like?
You know how was it painful.
You know all those things thatI didn't have anybody to talk to
about.
And being pregnant Back thenthey hid you away, there wasn't,
(19:33):
it wasn't even go to school.
Now, a few years later, itchanged.
But it wasn't that way, youknow, and my friends knew I was
pregnant, but because we wereCatholic, I think partly.
I'm sure it was out of shamethat they wanted me to.
Nobody would find out, but Ithink it was also.
They were thought they wereprotecting me and my parents
(19:54):
were older.
So when my, when I, was adopted, my father was 42 and my mother
was 32.
And that was older back then.
So they had older ideas as well, and and so, being isolated in
all during the last, the winteris pretty lonely and my friends
didn't come over.
I wasn't able to do the thingsthat I used to do, and one of my
(20:18):
survival strategies was to be ajuvenile delinquent.
And my parents my mother, wasvery.
She bought most, almost all mystories.
You know I was a really goodliar, very narcissistic, a
little criminal, and I don't.
When I'm thinking about why Idid those things now I can see
(20:44):
that I just wanted someone tolook up to me.
Now I couldn't get that atschool because I didn't do well,
my academics weren't weren'tgood, the kids that were coming
from the lower 48, because nowthis is a boom town, so we had
had oil discovered, and so whenI'm in junior high in 1970 and
71.
And I didn't get tripled, thatyou know like we had double
(21:08):
shifts.
And now there's, you know, bankkids that you know came from
the lower 48, then nice homesand nice clothes, and you know I
came from a middle class homebut we we weren't cool.
My parents were never cool, theywere old fashioned, right.
My mom was overprotective andso I didn't fit in in school and
(21:29):
I figured there was an eventthat happened with my father, a
very traumatic event, I think.
That's where I just clickedwhen I was 13 and just became as
bad as I could be and andstarted breaking into houses and
vandalizing and fighting.
You know, taking LSD andbreaking out my window and you
(21:52):
know, getting into places Ishould never have been.
You know there was somehorrific things that I saw.
At night and in the wintertimeit's dark, in the summertime
it's light the hardest days.
Five hours in the sun neversets, really in the summer it's
just.
You have this twilight and itwas my guiding light when I
stuck out my window to feel Iwanted to feel I wanted to be a
(22:19):
part of it and I never felt thatat home I was never a part of
it.
My mom, nobody wanted to comehang out at my house because it
was not a cool place.
So being pregnant and isolatedwas a God said in a sense,
because it stopped that activity.
I don't know what my life wouldhave been like had that have
(22:42):
not my juvenile delinquentbehavior.
It's just like now I'm in thehouse with my very Catholic
mother crocheting and saying therosary, so my baby will get
good parents going to see a nunevery week.
You know, it's like a wholedifferent paradigm shift.
Speaker 2 (23:02):
And what I would like us to do is put a little bit
around that and acknowledge thecircumstances in which you just
described the environment, theculture it did shape, how you
were going to go through thatexperience, and so we're going
to spend a lot of time, the restof our discussion, talking
(23:25):
about you as a birth parent.
Walk us through that decisionprocess and how you started
coping with that, and things youtold yourself during that
journey.
Speaker 1 (23:41):
There was never a discussion about what was going
to happen to the baby.
It was never, will.
You know, rovers is way to wentthrough and it was already
available to people in Alaskawhen I got pregnant, but it
wasn't actually Malore 48.
But it would have never been anoption for our Catholic family,
(24:03):
I mean, it was not even noteven for me or for my parents.
So that never came up indiscussion and neither did being
a, you know, putting the babyup for an option, which is what
we called it back then.
It was just assumed.
It was no conversation, it'sjust you're going to go see a
nun, I found.
(24:23):
You know you have a choice.
You can either go to FairbanksI found a school, pregnant
mother, pregnant girls, andthere's one in Seattle or you
can stay here.
They have, you know, classesfor girls at the advent, the
(24:43):
admin building here, and so youcan go with other pregnant girls
.
And I was 15.
So I was, I was, I had no job,I had, I was just, I was very
mature, just a little, just alittle girl.
You know, really I was, and soI mean I just went along with
the program and the whole time,especially when I started, you
(25:05):
know, when the my baby startedgrowing and I could feel her
moving and, oh my gosh, I, I,they took me to see sister Mary
Claire, every week or everyother week depending, and every
time that I went to the OBGYNappointment I would either have
a conversation with sisterClaire or go see her, because
she wanted to be apprised of howher apprised goose was cooking,
(25:28):
you know.
And so I, I again, wantedsomeone to care about me, and I
love sister Claire.
She was so, so darling oh,you're just a darling and she
had a New York accent and shewas an older lady and she had a
(25:49):
big navy blue, you know, with a,with a veil, with white around
her face, and she was just sokind and so sweet and we just
hit it off right away.
And but the back of my mind, Ialways knew that her job was to
make friends with the birthmother and take her baby, give
(26:12):
them to somebody better to raise.
That's always what I knew inthe back of my mind.
Yet I wanted to love her at thesame time, you know.
So I mean, you think about itwith what a mind fuck sorry, but
it just is.
You know, and I'm lookingforward to seeing her because I
have nowhere to, you know,nothing, nobody's coming over,
(26:33):
and I go see her and I know inthe back of my mind that that's
what's going to happen.
And I do know I did.
There is absolutely no freakingway.
And I mean I, I was completelyunder my parents thumb except
for one thing, and that was Iwanted to see my baby.
(26:54):
That was the only human thatwas my relative in the world
that I knew.
Of my only blood relative I hadnobody, my whole family.
I even wrote in my journalbecause my mom bought us a
journal.
She knew I needed a journal togo through this and I said my
mom and my brother and I aren'trelated because we're both
(27:17):
adopted and my parents aren'trelated to each other and
they're not related to us either.
We're just all strangers, youknow we just.
I just felt like a stranger inthat house, and so to have
somebody that looked like me,that was a part of me, was like
that's all I cared about andthat's all I did.
(27:37):
That's all I hung on to isbeing able to see her.
Now, you didn't get to see yourbaby at the Catholic hospital
you couldn't.
At the other hospital thatwasn't Catholic, but not at the
Catholic hospital they didn'tlet you see your babies.
But I groomed Sister Clairefrom the beginning to let me see
my baby and I knew at the verylast minute, if they wouldn't
(27:59):
let me see her, I would.
I would.
I'd just hold her around some.
Sorry, you don't get my baby,I'm not signing these papers
unless I get to see her and holdher.
And anyway I didn't have to gothat far.
That was the you know cause Inever defied my parents back
then.
You just, I mean I would sneakaround and I would lie and I
(28:20):
would.
You know all those things.
But you know, if you look atyour parents and even when
they're talking to you, if youlook away or look down or roll
your eyes, never did anythinglike that.
I mean slap across the face.
My mother was a rager, you knowshe's terrified me and my father
.
I was never afraid of my daduntil he beat me with a wire
(28:42):
hanger, the most excruciatingthing I've ever felt.
I mean I've had 11 pound babies, a baby, you know, natural
childbirth, and it had thatdidn't hold the candle to a wire
hanger beating.
I'm telling you I don't, Ididn't.
After the beating I neverreally I knew it wouldn't happen
again.
I guess I don't know how I knewit, but nobody ever said they
(29:04):
were sorry or anything.
It was just pushed out of therug and I hit it from, you know,
the authorities, because I lovemy parents and I didn't want to
be taken out of the home and mymother had grew me from young
that she was terrified of losingme because I was an adoptee.
You know, she's terrified ofthe mom coming back and taking
(29:25):
me and I, my brother and I heardthis all the time and so even
when things got really really,really bad at home before I got
pregnant and I wanted to runaway more than anything in the
whole world, I would never havedone it because it would have
hurt my mom, because I loved herso much.
You know, here I am going tothe nun and I did.
She said I'll send a note tothe hospital and see if they'll
(29:52):
agree to let me see your baby.
And so one day I'd go in and wehadn't, you know, talked about
the parents or anything and shehadn't found any parents.
But closer to the end she hadfound parents and she, you know,
said I found the perfect coupleto adopt your baby.
(30:13):
They're so wonderful, I mean,they were presented with such
enthusiasm that I mean I feltlike I was going to throw up and
pass out.
I mean, I got clammy in mymouth full with saliva, you know
, and at the whole time I actedhappy.
Oh, good good.
You know, I'm always wanting tobe approved on.
(30:35):
You know, f, and I felt like Iwas just in the end of a dark
tunnel.
You know, there's a caveat thatwe didn't talk about, and that
is that I had stuck out mybedroom window a lot and I had
this virgin mentality because itwent hammered home in my home
(30:56):
and I knew that I'd make themproud subconsciously if I were a
virgin.
I don't think it was ever aconversation that I had with my
parents, other than my father'svery inappropriate raging at me
at one point, which is in mybook, and it was probably one of
the most horrific things I'vebeen through, abuse-wise.
(31:17):
Thank God I did some EMDR in2020,.
You know, I had 11 big teatraumas.
11 big tea traumas Like notlittle tea traumas 10 millions
living in a house that you wereconstantly being gaslit, but
these were 11 big tea traumasand my therapist, you know, was
(31:39):
just like wow, I've never seenso many.
And you know, I know that Icame to this life, this monarchy
, you know, ended up on planetEarth, being able to handle it.
You know, I'm strong.
I have an ability to repress,push things down, block things
(32:01):
out, disassociate.
My brain protected me from somuch and I've had to unwind that
, most of it, in writing thismemoir and you get to unwind it
with me.
You get to, you know, discoverthe things that I discover as
I'm discovering it.
I mean, it's like becausethat's what I needed to do and
(32:23):
there's so much that still mybrain is protecting me from and
I'm grateful for that.
So I stuck up my bedroom windowand got raped at 15 by a 19 year
old heroin addict and I hadknown him and I blamed myself.
I blamed myself and I know thatat the time I didn't know
(32:45):
anything about.
You know, back then rape waswhen you were attacked in a dark
alley.
You know you had bruises, youscreamed, you know, you didn't
know you're a seller and youknow that whole thing.
And this was not the case.
I knew him.
I didn't want to be intimatewith him.
He was older, he was scary, Ididn't, you know.
(33:06):
And so the way I wired it in mybrain, I felt guilty and I kept
it a secret.
So when my parents were yellingat me who was it what you know?
Broken hearted that theirdaughter is a slut, you know
which is what my mind told me?
I was the first time I everdefied them.
(33:26):
I didn't answer.
I just I couldn't, because if Idid, they would have made a
huge deal out of it, like theydid with the census, and
humiliated me and I would havebeen.
I mean, it was just.
It was so tragic, you know, andI did not clear that until I
was 60, writing my memoir.
(33:48):
It took me almost two years ofwriting over and over again and
going over it with my friendsand my mother and until I could
see it from an adult perspectivebecause my brain had been, I
was still seeing so much with achild's stuff mind, and there's
so many other things that I didas well.
(34:08):
So the that was, you know,something I never told anybody
until I had to meet my daughter.
Speaker 2 (34:19):
Yeah, let's take a moment for the listeners.
It's a lot to process to hearsomeone talk about the pressures
of living in a strict religioushome, to know what it's like to
be 15.
I know we feel old, but it'snot like it was so distant.
(34:39):
I can't remember to be violatedand to not feel capable of
speaking of that.
That's a very heavy thing tohear and it's a very heavy thing
to process and so to writeabout it, to share about it
today, it's gotta be a littlebit draining.
Speaker 1 (34:59):
Yeah, see, that's what I was saying.
I get to regurgitate it inpodcasts and book clubs.
It does not go away.
But you know, this is the thing, and I'm just really quick.
I wanna say this you know Iwrote this.
I realized I was writing itbecause my daughter wanted me to
and then I realized there wasmore that I needed to heal, that
(35:21):
I didn't even realize I neededto and then I could have stopped
at any time.
I'm doing this because, gosh, somany people have related to
just the essays I write on mywebsite.
I mean I feel like I'm notalone.
I mean not everybody's beengreat, thank God, but we've all
(35:42):
had struggles and humiliationsand difficulties, you know, and
when I hear somebody else's, andespecially told with such
honesty, that I mean I feel likeI can speak up to, like my
secrets aren't so bad.
You know what I mean, and soyou know the book's not
(36:02):
depressing.
By the way, it's got somedefinite, you know, difficult
subject matter, but it's writtenlike a novel and it's
entertaining and you knowhealing and parts of it are
funny and some of it's very sad,but, man, I survive, I survive,
(36:24):
I'm a survivor.
You know what I mean.
I thrive today, you know, andthis did not take me down being
an adoptee, being raped, beingabused, being a birth mother,
having to lose my child toadoption, all the other shit
that's happened in the whole ofthe years that I've been on the
(36:46):
planet and there's been a lot ofother stuff, right, none of it
took me down.
Yeah, it was hard and yeah Imean, but I believe anybody can
if they want to heal.
It is not unique to just a few.
You know it is available andthere's so much out there to
(37:09):
help us today If there wasn'tback in the day, you know.
Speaker 2 (37:13):
Right.
Speaker 1 (37:13):
Nobody talked about it.
You know, it was all hush hush.
Thank goodness for podcasts.
Speaker 2 (37:20):
Yeah, what I've also heard in this conversation is
how you have set aside any shamethat you may have had or felt
during that time period and, asan adult, and because of all the
things that you have done towork on you and heal you and
share out you and survive, theshame component of it is not
(37:44):
coming through and I thinkthat's a really good thing to
celebrate.
So congratulations it's I knowit's a very difficult thing to
let go.
Well, I want us to stick alittle bit to you.
Ultimately did relinquish yourdaughter.
It was a girl.
You referenced her as a her afew times now in our
(38:07):
conversation and you, from thatpoint until when, always knew
you were going to do what.
Speaker 1 (38:15):
So the whole time I was pregnant, the only thing I
hung on to was 18 years.
That was it 18 years.
I counted the years Everybirthday.
Every birthday I'd sit and I'dthink about her, knowing that
that she would be thinking aboutme too.
(38:35):
And on my birthday, like my16th birthday, I just
relinquished my daughter.
It was probably one of the mostdepressing days of my life.
It was dark and gray, july 27thin Alaska.
Alaska summers could bemiserable and nobody wanted to
come over, nobody wanted to hangout with me, and it was just
(38:56):
morose and depressing.
That was.
My baby was just not even amonth old and I thought, and I
wrote in my journal my othermother is thinking about me,
must be thinking about me.
I think about my baby all thetime.
It's so weird thinking thatsomebody's thinking about you
(39:19):
that you don't even know, likemy mom thinking about me and my
birthday.
That's kind of how I got throughthose 18 years, other than lots
of drugs and alcohol, because Ispiraled out of control.
We moved about nine monthslater to the lower 48 in
California where I live nowSacramento area and not long
(39:43):
after that my father passed, acouple of years later and I had
a very sick, complexrelationship with my father.
He was abusive and favored me.
It's just gross.
And so when he died, I went.
(40:03):
I just started drinking andgoing up to the bar every night
and sleeping with any guy thatwould take me home, looking for
a daddy, looking for someone toreplace the only person that
really gave me attention my momdidn't drop me when we got my
brother and I was such a mess.
And then I found Black Label,which is Johnny Walker Black on
(40:29):
the rocks and that's what Idrank.
And it was, oh my gosh, it tookcare of all of it.
I could have a drink and itwould all melt away All the pain
I felt.
Enough for the first time.
It worked until it stoppedworking At the end.
(40:50):
I mean, I was drugs, cocaine,so I could drink more.
But I just hung on to the ideathat in 18 years I can find her
and I would look for her.
Speaker 2 (41:03):
Well, you did, you did look and you did find her,
and so fast forward us to kindof where you are today in the
context of that relationship.
Speaker 1 (41:15):
Oh my gosh, she looks just like me.
We FaceTime.
She's been going through someschool stuff.
She was changing careers in thelast two years so we don't we
weren't talking as often, butshe lives in Grand Rapids,
michigan, and she turned 50 inJune and I went back for my
granddaughter's graduation party.
(41:36):
She's going to Michigan Stateand she had a big party and my
daughter didn't want tocelebrate her birthday.
She doesn't like birthdays.
Interesting, right she was.
She was used to sit by thewindow waiting for me to come
for her cry and when she waseight I had given the sister to
(41:59):
give to the parents of VirginMary Statue and she had taken it
to school as a show and tellthe talk.
Whatever her birth mother hadgiven it to her.
It was packed in a bag and itfell out and got a little dent
in the virgin's head.
You know, it was just troubling.
You know to her her prizedpossession, but it sits next to
(42:21):
her bed still today, always has.
I was really surprised to seeit there and she's always been
there.
Can we were reunited when sheturned 18?
And that was incredible.
But now we have the sameclothes on our closet, we have.
We talk alike, we walk alike.
We are both like bulls in achina shop.
(42:41):
We are both bright, but noteducated per se.
Smart, she's real smart, and Ialways thought I was stupid.
I'm not.
I'm pretty smart too, you know,just a different kind of smart,
not the book smart, Although Iwrote a damn book, I mean, you
know, and I've had a lot ofsuccess in my life.
(43:03):
So, yeah, I've got some smarts,but, and so is she.
And but again, you know, shehad a really good family.
She got a really good family,oh my gosh.
So I mean, everything's notperfect, you know, never is.
But man, she, she's a wonderfulparents.
I was envious of her parents.
I wish I had parents like that,you know, although I would
(43:27):
never want to not have myparents, you know, because
they're my parents.
It's like you wipe them away.
They're my parents even thoughthey were.
Speaker 2 (43:37):
Yeah, that's just one of the more unique things about
adoption and being adopted isthat, despite or in spite, you
decide which of those two wordsyou want to use, and their
definition of who you ended upwith as parents.
Those are your parents and we.
(43:58):
We can't do anythingdifferently about that.
It's just the fact and yeah,it's.
It's not our would-a, should-a,could-a, it just is.
And it is very hard sometimesto to come to terms with that.
I don't, I don't really carewho you are, it's just sometimes
hard.
It is.
Speaker 1 (44:19):
I don't know, it's very hard to unwind.
You know, I've heard adopteesbeing really angry and, you know
, wish they'd never been adopted.
Speaker 2 (44:28):
We have a tendency not every adoptee, but many and
those that I talk to we haveattachment issues, banding mint
issues, and we have trust issues, and so you put those all in
one little human ball of fire.
So you're going to get what youget and you know that's just
(44:51):
where we're, you know that'sjust where it is and it doesn't.
It's another one of thosethings we can't apologize for.
There's nothing to apologizefor.
Speaker 1 (45:00):
And you know, I don't , I don't anymore, I don't know
that I ever really did apologizefor that, but I definitely.
I've definitely everybody'swired a little differently when
it comes to your parents.
You know, and you know I.
Just I don't, and you know I.
This is the other thing.
It's just I've done a lot ofwork on myself.
(45:21):
I got sober 40 years ago.
On tomorrow, when this airs,it'll be the 21st tomorrow and I
will have 40 years ofcontinuous sobriety, clean drugs
at alcohol and and that's whenmy, my healing journey really
began I'd already found mybiological family.
(45:41):
I found them in 1980.
And that that was, that washuge.
And then in 91, I was readingon my daughter and that that did
some healing.
And by the time I was readingon my daughter, I was sober.
I was sober up seven years, Ithink.
Incidentally, she ended upgetting sober.
She's just like me, just like me, and she's going to be sober up
(46:03):
April, 30 years.
So you know, the apple doesn'tfall, fall far from the tree.
We're so much alike and at thesame time we're so much alike
that we annoy each other Becausethose character defects we both
have the same ones, and I seethem in her and she sees them in
(46:25):
me.
It's a mirror.
Things that irritate me aboutmyself I see in her.
So you know, we have had ourcomplexities for sure in our
relationship.
But man, she'll call me, andit's generally on a Sunday, and
she'll call me and it looks likeshe just wants me to pull her
out of a hole, like I don't knowwhat's wrong.
I'm just so sad.
(46:45):
I don't know what's wrong andit's Sunday, it's the day I
related to this, the day I gavebirth, and she wants, she goes,
and I remember one her, herdaughter, comes over, my
granddaughter mommy what's wrong?
Why are you crying?
She goes.
I just miss grandma.
So she doesn't identify.
She's not really out of the fogper se.
She does, she goes.
I don't want to do that.
(47:06):
I don't want to go to fog.
I don't want to listen to allmy may already angry enough, but
you know.
So she's not there, but she, youknow, she has identified it.
You know I miss grandma, youknow, and I miss all the stuff,
all the things that I can't be apart of and I can't be either.
(47:27):
It's or my birth, my birthfamily adopted out of Canada and
I go back and forth.
The Canada, my family's alllike I'm indigenous, I'm a third
creed in the end, and I didn't.
I mean I always had a, you know, always felt like I wanted to
be, Didn't know I was until Ifound my family.
(47:49):
But they have family reunions,we put our handprints on TPs, we
have dried meat, we do all thethings you know, and both sides
of my family and and I miss itall.
Speaker 2 (48:02):
It's very hard to to wrap our brains around that.
Prior to us hitting the recordbutton today, we were talking
about a couple of differentthings and at you talking about
your heritage and your largefamily going and traveling to
(48:22):
see each other.
We had just talked aboutsomething very similar I shared
with you.
I hold the Bible of my adoptedmaternal grandmother and in her
era, that's where all of thefamily information is stored,
and we were I don't even knowwhy we got here Listeners.
(48:44):
I don't know how Monica and Igot here.
In all honesty, we'll just kindof laugh a little bit because
we don't know how we got here,but we were kind of talking
about end of life.
For some reason I brought it upand in the context of this
Bible and I shared with you.
I've been thinking about thisBible today specifically and I
(49:06):
need to make some decisionsabout it, because it's not my
current immediate family, it'snot their heritage, it's my
adopted family's heritage and itmeans something to me, which is
why I have it.
But when I pass and someone hasto clean my stuff out, unless
(49:30):
I'm explicit about that thing,I'm afraid someone's going to
throw it in the trash, and it is.
It is a family heirloom and soI need to make sure my nephew
gets it or my niece, who areactually part of the bloodline,
the official bloodline.
And even though we shared thatback and forth and you and I
(49:52):
were talking just about thethings we've missed as adoptees
with our biological family, atthe same time I look over at my
maternal biological family I'veshared.
It's a very large family andthey're very close and I love
watching them and how they aretight to each other and how
they'll pull apart, becausethat's what families do and they
(50:14):
come back together and they'retight and I kind of missed that
and I miss, I miss it, I missedit and it's a whole and it's
really unfortunate.
It was stolen.
Well, definitely not, nothonored, definitely not honored
for sure.
And yeah, it's complex.
(50:36):
It's complex.
There's no doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (50:38):
I feel like I got ripped off.
You know, I mean I've acceptedit and I mean I've lived with it
for very long time.
I've been in reunion with mybiological family like I don't
know 43, 44 years, my daughter,you know what 50 years and what
32 years actually, and 33 weeks,my goodness, and.
(51:00):
But I don't think I'll evertruly get over the grief of what
I lost and I don't, and it'sokay, you know, I've accepted
that this, this is my destinyand these are the things that I
get to heal.
It's made me a better person,it's made me kinder, it's made
(51:20):
me more compassionate and,ultimately, I think that's
that's the healing componentthat I needed and what happened
in their lives that made them dothe things that they did.
Hurt people, hurt people right.
And and when I can step awayfrom that and look at them from
a different lens into their life.
(51:41):
I've heard a lot of adoptees.
They're angry at their birthparents for relinquishing them,
and particularly their birth,birth months.
And I never have been everangry.
I never got to meet her.
She died when I was seven was awhole that I never got.
I never had to ask her why orwhat the background was.
(52:02):
I mean I only could listen tostories from other people about
her.
I never, ever doubted that sheloved doesn't mean that I didn't
have that primal wound in thatwhole, but in my mind and in my
heart I never felt that shedidn't love me or want me and I
think that might be because Ireally pushed and I loved my
(52:24):
baby with my entire heart, mywhole being.
I love that.
The birth mothers so much painand so much guilt and so much
shame right, and I had a lot ofthat as well.
But even passion for theadoptees, it just want to know
things.
You know it's our birthright toknow where we came from and
(52:46):
what the hell happened and whyyou didn't keep me.
Speaker 2 (52:49):
When we were speaking earlier, we talked about what
makes your story and the factthat you've decided to put a pen
to paper and what makes you agreat advocate in the community
is that connection betweenunderstanding what it's like to
be an adoptee and beingcomfortable in your adoptee skin
(53:12):
, but also having thatexperience of birth parent under
very ugly conditions andneeding to relinquish, and
living through that side, whichmight have balanced for you from
the time you gave birth untilshe was 18, your mindset of
(53:34):
knowing.
Okay, I get this whole adoptedparent, birth parent, adoptee
thing a little differently.
I'm living a different side ofthat.
It's powerful.
I have mentioned this manytimes.
I will plug this book just asmuch as I'll plug your book,
which is Candace Cahill's book,Thank you.
She speaks very openly abouther experience as a birth parent
(53:58):
and relinquishing.
I loved it from the concept of.
I needed to read that.
I needed to hear that side ofthe story because I wasn't going
to hear it from my birth mother.
It really humbled me and Ithink your story is another
iteration of that type ofconversation that we need to
(54:19):
hear.
So I appreciate that you'vecome on the show today to share
that with the listeners.
Yeah, Candice's book.
Speaker 1 (54:25):
Goodbye Again.
Excellent, she did a reallygood job and man kindred spirit
there.
You know my book the name of itis Practically Still A Virgin.
Speaker 2 (54:42):
I'm looking forward to the opportunity tomorrow to
order my own official copy andgo from there, as we're working
to close out today, and there isso much more we could talk
about, and so you know how Ifeel you are always welcome here
, but if there is a piece ofthis journey that you would like
(55:08):
to make sure we touch on beforewe say adios for today, what
would that be?
I?
Speaker 1 (55:14):
didn't talk about a lot of the stuff that happened,
especially the reunion with myfamily, and I did get to my
father and I was there in hisdeathbed in 2018.
You know, it was the samehospital where I was
relinquished and I mean, I wasthere for four days in this
(55:35):
hospital.
It was health care.
It's not like hospice, whereyou actually have, you know,
you're in the hospital and youhave a room where you could all
hang out with family.
It's like completely different,lisa, and it was so painful in
that my siblings were tellingstories about my dad, stories
that I was missing from, and itwas just such a double-edged
(55:58):
sword.
I got to hear these wonderfulstories but I was absent from
them.
I didn't get that kind of a dad.
I got the kind of dad that'sabusive and, oh man, I mean that
was such a gift.
At the same time, it was sopainful.
This one day, I mean oneafternoon, I just needed to get
(56:21):
out of there and walk and I knewthat I was relinquished.
I was born at that hospital andI thought there's no way it
would still be there.
Well, the ward where it wasdark, the doors were all closed.
You could see the sign thatsaid nursery number, whatever on
it on the door.
(56:41):
I went through those halls andI saw those windows and I saw
those rooms and it was a fullcircle because I was
relinquished at the hospital butthen I got to be there with my
father at the end of this life.
It was like a full circle.
So this is so much, so muchthat I am grateful for, and even
(57:07):
the bad stuff, because I havethis absolutely open heart today
because it got broken open.
So the book actually is onpre-order today.
You can pre-order it.
So anybody who's listening justgo to Amazon or review by books
(57:27):
in a scope.
Speaker 2 (57:28):
Play by this book.
Well, thank you.
Thank you again for being onthe show and opening up more of
your heart to our listeners andsharing out some of those
extremely painful pieces.
We do appreciate it and you'rewelcome here anytime, so thank
you again.
Speaker 1 (57:44):
Thank you so much, Lysanne.
It's always a pleasure.
Speaker 2 (57:46):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
Come share.
(58:13):
No need for a book.
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