Sometimes the bonds of family and the fabric of our identities need mending, a truth that Joe Beth know all too well. On this episode of Wandering Tree Podcast, we hear their powerful journey through adoption, suicide and addiction. The conversation leads up down a path which involves unraveling the deep emotional complexities that come with Joe courageously sharing his story, from the trauma of being adopted from Japan to the solace he sought in substances; all painting a picture of the isolation and rejection he felt as an adoptee and minority. Beth, with the wisdom only a mother's heart can hold, reveals her side of their shared path — the awakening to her son's unique needs and the crucial steps taken to navigate the turbulence of his crises.
This dialogue is more than just a recounting of past struggles; it's a beacon of hope for those entangled in similar battles. Joe and Beth's raw conversation emphasizes the transformative power of vulnerability and open communication, spotlighting the potential for healing within adoptive families. By sharing their experiences, they not only reinforce the significance of acknowledging adoption trauma but also celebrate the resilience found in facing these challenges head-on.
Website: UnravelingAdoption.com
IG: https://www.instagram.com/unravelingadoption/
FB: https://www.facebook.com/UnravelingAdoption/
988 Suicide & Crisis Lifeline
The 988 Lifeline provides 24/7, free and confidential support for people in distress, prevention and crisis resources for you or your loved ones, and best practices for professionals in the United States.
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:07):
And you will be okay.
I know it seems so hard rightnow if you're in that space, but
if you are listening to thisright now and in a hard spot, my
thoughts are to you.
Anyone who's being hurt orstruggling, I want you to know
there's someone out there thatis thinking about the hurt.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello, this is your host, lisa Anne.
Today's episode covers thesensitive topic of suicide and
addiction.
These discussions have thepotential to create strong
emotions and pervasive thoughts.
If you are in any need of help,please consider calling the
United States National Suicideand Crisis Lifeline at 988.
(00:57):
They provide 24 by 7, free andconfidential support for people
in distress, providepreventative and crisis
resources for you and your lovedones.
If you are listening outside ofthe United States and need help
, please consider calling yourlocal emergency professionals.
Thank you so much for yoursupport and the time that you
(01:19):
will take today to listen tothis very important episode
between our guests, bethan andher son, joe.
Thank you again.
Welcome to Wandering TreePodcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced-basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, identity,life search and reunion.
(01:41):
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guests of
honor, joey Nakao and BethSyverson.
Welcome you two, hi thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, it's going to be quite the episode.
I'm excited about this in a lotof different ways, and I just
want to express my gratitude forhaving both of you here and joy
for having you here.
My listeners know how old I am,and so I always appreciate when
I can pull in anothergeneration, and I do want to
(02:14):
share with you.
After we were done talking inour prep call, I just felt such
a connection and I was just sothankful that we were able to
have that time together, so I'mlooking forward to today's time
as well.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Thank you, yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Well, with that said, what I'd like to do is turn it
over to you and, in your words,share with us a little bit about
your adoption journey.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Okay, I guess from the start, which is I was seven
months old when my adoptiveparents I don't really know the
lingo, I'm not too into thelingo, but my adoptive parents
came to Japan when I was sevenmonths old and that they got me
from like a nursing home sort ofthing, because my birth parents
(02:58):
were actually like 16, I likereally young.
So that that's why I was givingup for adoption, because we
assumed that they couldn't takecare of me.
And then when my adoptiveparents got me, brought me back
to California, I grew up reallyin a really nice environment.
It's just until later on that Irealized that adoption has
(03:19):
affected me severely and gave metrauma and made me realize that
others is a thing I didn'trealize, like being other, and
not just being adopted, but alsoa minority really doesn't click
well with people for somereason, and it showed me the
cruelness of the world but alsogave me the opposite, which I
(03:42):
can be the light in someone'sdarkness.
That's how I see it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Oh, I love that, I love that thought process, and I
know that that's been a reallybig journey for you to get there
and I do want to kind of justlet everyone know it has not
been roses for you and that's myterm right and you've really
experienced a side of two thingsyou just mentioned adoption and
(04:08):
minority that others may or maynot have experienced, but it
had a really strong impact onyou in your formative years.
And do you want to just shed alittle bit of light on some of
the struggles that you had inthose formative years and your
(04:28):
perspective on them please?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yes of course.
So my biggest kind of like Iguess it's a vice is substance
abuse.
I am still struggling a littlebit with nicotine and alcohol,
but what I gravitated toward itwas because I felt safe when I'm
on substances like psychedelicsor marijuana.
(04:52):
Those are such a psychoactivechemical that makes you feel for
me at least at peace and wanted, even not from others, but by
myself.
I never felt wanted by myself.
I never, never felt acceptedfor myself.
So when I experiencedsubstances it gave me that hit
that I needed or that hug that Iexplained before, but it's not
(05:14):
like it was sufficient for along period of time.
After a while it got bad andkind of ruined my life for a
little bit.
And then also bullying was athing in high school, really bad
because I lived in a majoritywhite populated area and you
don't see that many minorities.
I mean, yes, there's minorities, but compared to the white
(05:36):
population it's down here inorange county I can say that is
astonishing.
And bullying.
Substance abuse I'm trying tothink the adoption and was a big
key part for me to understand alot of this, because it all
stemmed from that, the adoptionand the traumas that I went
through from that.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I would.
I would wonder too if you wouldresonate with that trauma and
who you were trying to be inyour own skin was enough of a
challenge of life.
And then you added on thebullying component.
And you know you did find acoping mechanism and you chose,
you know, drugs and othersubstances, and you're not alone
(06:21):
, and that's, I think, importantfor adoptees to hear as well.
It is a very common escapemechanism for adoptees to find
something to help us copethrough a lot of those periods
of our life, and so thank you somuch for sharing that as well,
because that can be.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You know that can be hard.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It can absolutely be hard to bury your soul that way.
Well, we have with us your mom,beth, and I would like, beth,
for you to kind of just dive ina little bit here and share with
the listeners.
You know kind of where you werestarting to recognize some of
the challenges of an adoptee andhow that impacted you from a
(07:07):
parenting perspective as welland how you were trying to
nurture your child.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you for theopportunity and I'm just super
proud of Joe for being able tospeak his truth and to be so
honest and I'm totally insupport of him and his path.
And I'm on my own path overhere trying to get myself pulled
together too.
And you know, I thoughteverything was really great
until adolescence.
(07:35):
And you know, at 15, joey triedto kill himself and just
everything just flipped andnothing has been the same since
then.
But before that point I thoughtwe did a pretty good job and I
thought he was an amazing kidand he was doing so great in
baseball and music and all sortsof wonderful things.
And it was very startling forme.
(07:57):
When visiting him in that firstpsych hospital I realized whoa,
I didn't really realize it wasthe adoption at that moment in
time, but I realized there's awhole lot of pain here I didn't
understand.
So looking back, I did a wholebunch of stuff kind of wrong,
incorrectly, not enough that Iwould have done differently had
(08:17):
I known what I know now.
But it took me a little whilewith adoption therapist and
being in the adoption community,reading the primal wound,
things like that.
That helped me understandadoption trauma and how I can
either help my son work throughit and work through whatever
pain I caused, or I can makethings worse.
So I try the best I can to helphim find resources and
(08:43):
acknowledge the pain he's in anddo whatever I can to try to
make up for the mistakes I made.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, and I know that's very hard for you to say,
and I know it's going to behard for listeners to hear as
well.
Parenting is difficult,regardless of the situation.
And Joe's nodding his head yes,and so that's.
You know, that's an affirmationthat mistakes get made all the
(09:10):
time.
I can tell you I just made onea couple of days ago and I'm
like, oh, what a bonehead moveand I mean it was just like
literally that type of a thing,you know I just have one thing
to add.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yes, you made mistakes, mom, but I want you to
know, in this, like space, thatI don't take them personally.
Like you are human, you mademistakes.
I'm probably gonna makemistakes when I have kids, like
I learned from you.
But I still will make mistakes.
It's just part of life and Iwant you to understand that.
Still, you're loved by me, nomatter what.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Oh, Joe, you're the best.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, I didn't want to cry, but that is just so, so
precious and I appreciatehearing that and being part of
that exchange.
I do want to take a couplesteps back, if you don't mind.
So, beth, you did divulge inyour dialogue that, joe, you
attempted suicide and you and Italked about that pretty
(10:11):
significantly in our prep, andso this is a major trigger
warning, because I know we'regoing to go there and I want
people to know that that we'renot.
We're not in a space where wewant to hide the struggle, right
.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
It was a really tough decision for you to try to end
your life and you and I spokeabout that and I have thought
about that probably every momentsince we had our prep
conversation, had our prepconversation, and so I just want
(10:49):
to give you a couple of momentsto tell our adoptee community
that may be struggling, you knowkind of the things that were
going through your mind and, ifthere's any, you know things
that you would suggest for themto think about before they take
that step.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh, 100% yes.
I don't know how many years ago, maybe five years ago was the
first attempt.
I was going through a lot withthe drugs and then, as soon as I
touched psychedelics, it kindof changed my chemistry in my
brain, which it does, showing methe other side.
It gave me this awareness thatthere's life after.
(11:27):
For me it's not the all-knowinganswer, but for me it gave me
the sense of, yes, there's lifeafter death.
And I took it the wrong way.
I wanted to be on the otherside rather than live my own
life.
That's the scary thing aboutpsychedelics when you don't take
them as you are supposed toquote unquote, because there's
ways that you can do it safely.
I did.
That's why I spiraled into thisvery dark space.
(11:50):
It seemed dark to outsiders, Ithink, but in my head it was so
peaceful because I wanted tojust be on the other side and I
was for a long time on the drugs, until that day where I tried
to take my own life.
That's when I realized that Idon't like pain.
Pain is what stopped me fromsucceeding in dying.
(12:11):
That pain got me out of it,told me that my body was like
yes, this isn't what it'ssupposed to be, because I
thought it was all rainbows andbutterflies basically on the
other side.
But you have to go through painto get through that.
That's what I learned, and painis not what I love, uh, but
what I guess I can tell othersthat are going through the same
(12:32):
emotions if they're goingthrough that like similar
situation, or if they're justsuicidal and or depressed.
My biggest like thing to say isgo talk to someone if you can.
If you, if you have theopportunity to talk to someone,
take the opportunity.
I know it's hard, but you can'tbring yourself out of that if
you're that low.
(12:53):
Someone else has to or will tryif they want to, because it's
nearly impossible for me.
My subjective like I guess it'sreally difficult to get out of
that spiral by yourself and askfor help.
People want to help.
They don't want to see you dieunless it's most likely.
People want to help.
(13:14):
That's how they get joy out ofthemselves.
So it may be out of narcissismor it could be out of true like
wanting to help, but the mainthing is just ask for that help,
because you won't get it if youdon't ask.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I would agree with that, and I wonder too sometimes
if there is this barrier ofasking for help from those we
love.
Did you kind of experience thatas well, joe?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yes, I fortunately was that wall or that.
Like I guess that wall wasbroken because my parents dove
deep into like researching whatwas going on with me and they
kind of chipped away at the wallfor me, so they gave me the
space to come to them.
That's very fortunate for me.
Other people may not have that,but yes, there's definitely a
(14:03):
wall when you don't want to hurtothers by telling you're hurt
because you think that's goingto hurt them.
But no, there's definitely awall when you don't want to hurt
others by telling you're hurtbecause you think that's going
to hurt them.
But no, they want to help.
And it's a difficult place whenyou feel like you can't ask for
help.
That's a very dark place.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I would agree.
I'm going to insert here alittle bit of information.
There is a national suicidehotline, it's 988.
That's going to be in my shownotes and I would just highly
advocate for anybody that'shurting that's a place to start.
They can help you get to all ofthe next steps and it's
intended to be exactly what youjust said.
(14:38):
They want to help, they aretrained to help.
They are not your parents,they're not your close friends,
and so that boundary that youmay have built up is different,
and you know, I think thatthere's some commonality though,
regardless of how you choose todeal with your trauma, through
psychedelics or through you knowthis path of attempted suicide.
(15:01):
I have been openly speakingthis year about how, for myself,
after I found out my biologicalbeginnings, it was extremely
difficult for a good two yearperiod.
I call it the abyss, and I'mworking my way out of the abyss.
It's not perfect and you know Ijust heard your mom say a few
(15:22):
minutes ago she's working on heras well.
So there's a lot of work to bedone and there's no shame in it,
and I love the fact that we'rehere talking about it so openly.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yes, and that's the thing.
There's a stigma around thistopic and it's very unfortunate.
But that's what we're doing andworking on is to get that word
out there and know that it's notshameful to be talking about
this.
It's actually helpful to get itout into the world.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
you're almost like releasing it with your voice
yeah, I am so appreciative thatwe're here today again to talk
about this.
You had a tipping point.
You said you've made more thanone attempt and one was too
painful, one was not, not.
And then you guys were, youknow, in a hospital and, beth,
this is where I know you hadyour aha moment, and could you
(16:12):
kind of walk us a little bitthrough what that meant for you
as a parent looking at yourchild that you've been nurturing
?
What avenues would you giveother parents to also, you know,
consider in this conversation?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
would you give other parents to also, you know,
consider in this conversation.
Yeah, it's really tough foradoptive parents to hit that
wall and go crap.
I thought I was doing a goodthing, I thought the adoption
was wonderful.
I mean, that's what we've beentold, that's what the societal
you know trope is oh look,that's so beautiful.
And you know trope is oh look,that's so beautiful.
(16:46):
And obviously, well, maybe notobviously, but for me I went
into this thinking, oh, I justwant to be a great mom, I really
want to help this child whodoesn't have a parent, and I was
also infertile, so it's verycomplicated.
But to realize that, oh no, itjust shatters your world and a
(17:08):
lot of adoptive parents can'teven go there, they just stay.
Oh, I can't even go near that.
It's so painful to realize.
So I'm actually trying to helppeople with much younger kids
try to realize this stuff a lotsooner.
I think that would have beenbetter than waiting till my kid
was in crisis.
I think that would have beenbetter than waiting till my kid
was in crisis.
But the work that needed to bedone that I'm still doing is
(17:31):
inside my own self.
Well, at first I did try to fixJoey.
He didn't like that too muchand it didn't work very well.
But I chased him around for awhile.
But once I got talking to theadoption therapist and started,
really, I started listening toAdoptees On.
I found your podcast, lisa, andeventually reading all the
(17:52):
books, doing all the things, andjust I'm like, okay, all right,
my kid's in crisis.
I have no choice.
There's no one more desperateto learn than a mother with a
kid in crisis.
So I'm like, okay, just tell mewhat I need to know.
And so I did, and I'm very gladI did, because joy and I are
still together, he's still aliveand he is still in
(18:14):
communication with me and we areboth just kind of on this
journey together and it feels alittle bit like, oh, I don't
know, we're both meant to betogether or I don't know it's
them both meant to be togetheror I don't know.
It's a weird feeling, but I'mjust trying to work on myself
and actually also trying to helpother families too.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I do like the conversation where you're
tackling working with adopteeparents, with younger children
that type of support mechanism,education and resource.
It is so crucial.
I think about that veryregularly as well.
(18:54):
In terms of my journey.
If my parents had had maybe amore solid support mechanism,
things would have been differentfor them and for me them things
would have been different forthem and for me.
Yeah, I just think that is oneof the areas where we have had
the largest fail.
If we were to line up all theadoption fails through all of
(19:15):
the generations and centuries ofadoption, then that would be
one of them.
Just lack of support, yeah thepost-adoption support.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
They're like, okay, here you go, have fun.
And and, yeah, don't give youany information or resources.
I personally think that boththe parents and the child should
get therapy for life.
You know, as part of theadoption package, package deal,
here you go, yeah why don't youdo that society?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
it's?
It's very confusing to me onlike why people don't understand
because it's like a surfacething like they.
Always confusing to me on likewhy people don't understand
because it's like a surfacething, like they always want to
be on the surface, like thesociety, I guess.
And it's unfortunate, but Iguess our word helps break that
first layer.
And well, that's how thingshappen.
You have to speak up yeah yeahand I was.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I agree, we're at the surface layer, we are
absolutely at layer one and wehave to keep diving deep, and I
love that thought process aswell.
So you were going to, you weregoing to add a little bit more,
joe, yes.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Just going to my mom's point on, like we're
continuously on a journeytogether, work continuously on a
journey together, I I was likewhen I kind of came out of the
chaos I finally realized Iactually have a better
relationship with my mom than Iever did before.
And that's kind of what happenswhen you work and be honest,
(20:38):
like truly honest, that you canhave like this, no stress, no
animosity, like relationship.
I'm fortunate to have that withmy mother, but I think
communication and honestcommunication really helps, even
with your therapist probably.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, you know, what's really interesting about
that is finding the safe place.
And so what do you both believemay have prevented it from
being a safe place prior tocrisis?
And the reason I ask that is,I'm struggling with a little bit
of that in my own world, whereI know I have things I need to
(21:21):
communicate, but no matter whomI'm talking to or what I'm
talking about, it's still notquite safe enough for me.
Yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Actually, that's a great question.
I haven't even thought aboutthat.
My mom may have a point, I justI have.
I can think about it, but rightnow it just comes to mind
actually.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I can think of one thing.
I did that shut a door.
That didn't help.
When Joey was seven or eight orso, he said, mom, we were in
the car.
He said, mom, I'm really sadbecause I feel like my mom threw
me away and I know what I wouldsay now.
But back then I said oh, honey,oh, no, no, no, she didn't
throw you away, she loved youand we loved you.
(22:08):
It's all good and don't worry,don't be sad.
So, oh, it just hurts, hurts tosay that out loud that I did
that.
But what that taught joey isthat, oh, I can't bring mom, my
mom's not safe to talk aboutthis part, this sadness I have
inside me.
It's not safe to talk to herbecause, look, it made her
really sad and she's likepaddling trying to fix it.
And that's not what he needed.
(22:29):
At that point he needed me tosay, oh, that must be really sad
man.
What kind of support do youneed around that?
Or you want to talk about it,you know.
But at that point I didn'tunderstand and I didn't have the
personal growth yet to be ableto hold that with him.
I just got kind of defensiveand like, oh, but we're fine,
we're good, we're fine, we'refine.
(22:49):
I don't know if you rememberthat.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Joey, yes, I actually do.
I don't know if I was in abooster seat or something like
that.
I just remember sitting in thecar expressing my emotions and
feeling like I was so young.
But I just remember feelingthis emotion of like not safe,
yeah, but safe at the same time,because you're my mother.
(23:13):
But it's like this differenttype of safe, yeah, emotional
the wall, wall that wall but Iactually thought of a few ideas
of why I couldn't be open on myside towards my parents is
because the drugs obviouslystarted prior to everything kind
of going down and that's a bigthing with, I guess, society.
That is a very bad thing to dois drugs and when I started I
(23:35):
felt safe.
I felt very safe with mycommunity and the substances but
, I didn't feel safe explainingthat to my closest people
because I felt like it was tabooor very not good to express.
But now that I can learn andstuff and went through a lot of
experiences that there is nowrong question and there's no
(24:00):
right answer, yeah, it was toughbecause Joey started when he
was about 13.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
So what 13 year old is going to say hey mom, what do
you think about me?
I mean, that's a toughsituation for anybody.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, yeah.
I do strongly believe, though,that adoptees really struggle
with the communication ofemotion at young ages, and if
you do not feel safe at a youngage, it's just going to
perpetuate as you continue yourjourney.
I'll speak to my own journey.
(24:36):
It is very hard for me toarticulate to people how hard it
is to not know where you werefor six months of your life.
So I have what I call life gap,where there's six months from
birth to adoption day that Ireally I haven't done enough
research on, because Iresearched fatigue as well,
(24:58):
right, and so that period oftime, as a human means, I was on
the earth, but there's nothingreally documenting my existence,
or what is documented isn't inmy possession, and so it makes
me sometimes just feel awkward,and the response I get when I
(25:18):
share that out is well, you werea baby and you wouldn't
remember it anyway well sure but, you.
But you know that the personthat that birthed you, picked
you up, fed you, coddled you,bathed you, clothed you.
You know who that is.
You have pictures you're onemonth, you're two months, you're
three, right, all that stuff.
It's very hard to share thatout and that kind of stuff, even
(25:42):
at my age, and not get the walland I'm like, okay, then I know
you're not safe for me to talkto about these types of things
yeah yeah, you find out prettyquickly, huh yes, I was
literally gonna say it's like,you know, when you can't trust
someone, uh, but that'sunfortunate, because you should
be able to trust people in thisworld.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
But that's just how the world is, and I don't want
to be grim, but that's how Ifeel.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, it makes it a challenge for adoptees and
that's the struggle that I thinkwe work through on a regular,
regular, regular.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Can.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I put another regular in there Basis.
Of course, and that's why we'retalking today.
Well, this journey has had somepositive outcomes.
You've talked about the kind ofthe reunification of your
guys's relationship, but arethere other positive outcomes
that you guys would like toshare today?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Well, we made a podcast.
It was Joe's idea to start thepodcast.
It used to be called Safe HomePodcast and now it's called
Unraveling Adoption.
Do you want to talk about it,Joe?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, I think the whole idea was I'll just be
brief about it we were on thefreeway driving.
I was like why don't we start apodcast?
We were listening to a podcastor something and I said we could
probably help someone if wejust talked about it just openly
.
And I guess my mom really likedthe idea.
And then we jumped on it and itbecame a thing and after the
(27:04):
first episode it was like ourgoal is to help at least one
person, one person.
And we have succeeded.
And I think we've well farsucceeded past that and I'm just
very, very fortunate to be ableto express my self.
I don't know know why I can doit, but it's easy for me.
(27:25):
I know it's not easy foreveryone, but I know this will
help someone at one point.
That's why I do it, because I'mall about the nurturing and
love of people and that's whatpeople need.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Joey and I are both so mission driven.
We just want to help otherfamilies, you know, not go
through the horrible stuff thatwe've gone through.
If we can catch them a littlesooner or give them, maybe they
are going through really toughstuff and they can go.
Oh, we're not the only ones.
Okay, okay and also.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I believe in my belief you can't change anyone's
like perspective until they gothrough it.
So I think my point of view isthat if someone goes through it
like the hard, they're probablygoing to be more knowledgeable
than people that didn't gothrough it.
That's just my personal.
Just don't go through it onpurpose, just to learn more.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Joey has a PhD in life skills here.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, there's something to be said for that
too.
I don't need to go through whatyou went through in order to
learn from you, and I've learneda lot from you in two
conversations, so that'simportant that we understand.
Learning someone else's lifelesson doesn't mean we have to
live through it, but we can findthe warning signs early, or the
(28:45):
red flags, if that's what youwant to call them, whatever it
is and then work towards findingthe right tool for ourselves to
overcome that.
I love the fact that you guysstarted a podcast with the
mission.
Your why was just touch oneperson.
I have said my why is that samereason more times than I can
(29:07):
count right now, so I love that.
But I also know for both of you, this experience brought out a
little bit of your creativityand it allowed you both to
elevate your creative side.
So, joe, tell us kind of alittle bit of what you're doing,
not only speaking and talking.
But how are you really?
You know, elevating yourselfand continuing to grow, and this
(29:32):
is a journey that's going to goon for a while.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Oh yeah, I agree with that and I personally believe
it never ends Like.
That.
May sound really scary, but inthe end you're gonna learn new
stuff every single day.
And what kind of came out of mewas this passion for music, and
music gave me an expression,that like a voice, like a bigger
(29:55):
voice than because I canpublish, I can get things out
there, because I understand mostof that stuff.
But music gave me a canvas, andI didn't know I had that in me
until after crisis.
Actually, I remember this one.
I just started listening tobeats and rapping over them one
of my attempts.
But I was in Nevada in one ofthese lockdown facilities and I
(30:18):
made a beat and rapped over itand I was like, huh, this is a
good way to express myself and Iwas talking about very hard
things and my truth.
That's how I get it out, andit's not just get views or
whatever.
It's also to let myself get itout and hear it back and learn
from it.
And that's what my creativeexpression came out.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
And Beth yours came out in furthering your podcast.
You guys started out with thepodcast was Safe Home, if I
remember correctly, and you'venow transitioned to be a little
bit more adoption centric foradoptive parents and focusing in
on some really tough subjects,but you've also become a life
(31:04):
coach, if I remember correctly.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about kind of your path
forward?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, I had no idea I would do any of this stuff.
I've been a musician my wholelife, like a classical musician,
music director type person.
This is totally a new wheelhouse for me.
But I realized I need to getsome sort of training and
certification because I want tohelp other parents and not just,
like you know, casually, but Ireally want to help them.
So I got certified through theVirginia Satir Global Network
(31:33):
Coaching and Mentoring Program,which is amazing, and I love my
coaching.
It's opened up a whole new worldfor me and I think a lot of
adoptive parents just wantanother person that goes yeah,
yep, yep, I hear you reallytough.
And my coaching it doesn't havea whole lot of answers for
(31:55):
people, but I guide people tohelp them find their own truth,
their own answers.
So it's been a really bigblessing to have that and I've
learned so much and I'm startingto do more advocacy work out in
the community and so I'mfeeling very driven to do this
work.
I'm still doing a little bit ofmusic, but it's mostly this now
(32:17):
.
Well, as we come to a closetoday, mostly this now.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well, as we come to a close today, is there anything
that either of the two of youwould have liked me to have
asked you?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Do you want to tell about our book?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
You can do that.
I just have one statement thatI want to say.
It's a closing out statement,if that's okay, but you go first
.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Oh no, you go first.
Adoptees first oh, you want togo last.
Okay, adoptees get to pick.
Then, okay, we are writing abook.
We're self-publishing it, sowe'll just put it on Amazon, and
it's going to be about adopteesand suicide, suicidality, and
Joe and I are writing a portionof it, and I have about over a
dozen other adoptees and birthparents and adoptive parents
(32:55):
that have submitted poems andessays, and then it has a whole
section of resources.
So we hope it's going to be areally useful resource for
parents and for therapists andteachers and anyone that cares
about adoptees.
So that's kind of our currentproject.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
What is your target publish date?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I'm hoping by the end of April.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
All right.
So that's you, beth, kind oftalking a little bit about this
book and what a great project,and I think there will be great
benefits from it as well.
Joe, what about you?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I just want to state something that a lot of people
don't hear from either theirloved ones or close people, is
that, no matter what, you'reloved by someone in your life
and you will be okay.
I know it seems so hard rightnow if you're in that space, but
if you are listening to thisright now and in a hard spot, my
(33:52):
thoughts are to you, anyonewho's being hurt or struggling.
I want you to know there'ssomeone out there that is
thinking about the hurt and youare loved.
I'm sorry if you weren'tnurtured.
Nurturing is supposed to beeasy for people, but it's not
and it's very difficult and Iunderstand a lot of people don't
get nurturing.
But love you can give endlessly.
(34:13):
So that's all I have to say.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, I think you've almost rendered me speechless.
That is beautiful.
I am so glad you guys have beenon the show and I want to say
thank you.
You are welcome here any, anytime, and what a blessing, what
a blessing.
And thank you for entering myworld as well.
(34:37):
It's been a pleasure, thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you, we appreciate it.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopting journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadoptingcom.
And you will be okay.
I know it seems so hard rightnow if you're in that space, but
if you are listening to thisright now and in a hard spot, my
thoughts are to you.
Anyone who's being hurt orstruggling, I want you to know
there's someone out there thatis thinking about the hurt.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Hello, this is your host, lisa Anne.
Today's episode covers thesensitive topic of suicide and
addiction.
These discussions have thepotential to create strong
emotions and pervasive thoughts.
If you are in any need of help,please consider calling the
United States National Suicideand Crisis Lifeline at 988.
(00:57):
They provide 24 by 7, free andconfidential support for people
in distress, providepreventative and crisis
resources for you and your lovedones.
If you are listening outside ofthe United States and need help
, please consider calling yourlocal emergency professionals.
Thank you so much for yoursupport and the time that you
(01:19):
will take today to listen tothis very important episode
between our guests, bethan andher son, joe.
Thank you again.
Welcome to Wandering TreePodcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced-basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, identity,life search and reunion.
(01:41):
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guests of
honor, joey Nakao and BethSyverson.
Welcome you two, hi thank you.
Speaker 3 (01:51):
Thank you so much for having us.
Speaker 2 (01:52):
Yeah, it's going to be quite the episode.
I'm excited about this in a lotof different ways, and I just
want to express my gratitude forhaving both of you here and joy
for having you here.
My listeners know how old I am,and so I always appreciate when
I can pull in anothergeneration, and I do want to
(02:14):
share with you.
After we were done talking inour prep call, I just felt such
a connection and I was just sothankful that we were able to
have that time together, so I'mlooking forward to today's time
as well.
Speaker 1 (02:27):
Thank you, yeah, me too.
Speaker 2 (02:28):
Well, with that said, what I'd like to do is turn it
over to you and, in your words,share with us a little bit about
your adoption journey.
Speaker 1 (02:37):
Okay, I guess from the start, which is I was seven
months old when my adoptiveparents I don't really know the
lingo, I'm not too into thelingo, but my adoptive parents
came to Japan when I was sevenmonths old and that they got me
from like a nursing home sort ofthing, because my birth parents
(02:58):
were actually like 16, I likereally young.
So that that's why I was givingup for adoption, because we
assumed that they couldn't takecare of me.
And then when my adoptiveparents got me, brought me back
to California, I grew up reallyin a really nice environment.
It's just until later on that Irealized that adoption has
(03:19):
affected me severely and gave metrauma and made me realize that
others is a thing I didn'trealize, like being other, and
not just being adopted, but alsoa minority really doesn't click
well with people for somereason, and it showed me the
cruelness of the world but alsogave me the opposite, which I
(03:42):
can be the light in someone'sdarkness.
That's how I see it.
Speaker 2 (03:47):
Oh, I love that, I love that thought process, and I
know that that's been a reallybig journey for you to get there
and I do want to kind of justlet everyone know it has not
been roses for you and that's myterm right and you've really
experienced a side of two thingsyou just mentioned adoption and
(04:08):
minority that others may or maynot have experienced, but it
had a really strong impact onyou in your formative years.
And do you want to just shed alittle bit of light on some of
the struggles that you had inthose formative years and your
(04:28):
perspective on them please?
Speaker 1 (04:30):
Yes of course.
So my biggest kind of like Iguess it's a vice is substance
abuse.
I am still struggling a littlebit with nicotine and alcohol,
but what I gravitated toward itwas because I felt safe when I'm
on substances like psychedelicsor marijuana.
(04:52):
Those are such a psychoactivechemical that makes you feel for
me at least at peace and wanted, even not from others, but by
myself.
I never felt wanted by myself.
I never, never felt acceptedfor myself.
So when I experiencedsubstances it gave me that hit
that I needed or that hug that Iexplained before, but it's not
(05:14):
like it was sufficient for along period of time.
After a while it got bad andkind of ruined my life for a
little bit.
And then also bullying was athing in high school, really bad
because I lived in a majoritywhite populated area and you
don't see that many minorities.
I mean, yes, there's minorities, but compared to the white
(05:36):
population it's down here inorange county I can say that is
astonishing.
And bullying.
Substance abuse I'm trying tothink the adoption and was a big
key part for me to understand alot of this, because it all
stemmed from that, the adoptionand the traumas that I went
through from that.
Speaker 2 (05:57):
I would.
I would wonder too if you wouldresonate with that trauma and
who you were trying to be inyour own skin was enough of a
challenge of life.
And then you added on thebullying component.
And you know you did find acoping mechanism and you chose,
you know, drugs and othersubstances, and you're not alone
(06:21):
, and that's, I think, importantfor adoptees to hear as well.
It is a very common escapemechanism for adoptees to find
something to help us copethrough a lot of those periods
of our life, and so thank you somuch for sharing that as well,
because that can be.
Speaker 1 (06:42):
You know that can be hard.
Speaker 2 (06:43):
It can absolutely be hard to bury your soul that way.
Well, we have with us your mom,beth, and I would like, beth,
for you to kind of just dive ina little bit here and share with
the listeners.
You know kind of where you werestarting to recognize some of
the challenges of an adoptee andhow that impacted you from a
(07:07):
parenting perspective as welland how you were trying to
nurture your child.
Speaker 3 (07:13):
Yeah, yeah.
Well, thank you for theopportunity and I'm just super
proud of Joe for being able tospeak his truth and to be so
honest and I'm totally insupport of him and his path.
And I'm on my own path overhere trying to get myself pulled
together too.
And you know, I thoughteverything was really great
until adolescence.
(07:35):
And you know, at 15, joey triedto kill himself and just
everything just flipped andnothing has been the same since
then.
But before that point I thoughtwe did a pretty good job and I
thought he was an amazing kidand he was doing so great in
baseball and music and all sortsof wonderful things.
And it was very startling forme.
(07:57):
When visiting him in that firstpsych hospital I realized whoa,
I didn't really realize it wasthe adoption at that moment in
time, but I realized there's awhole lot of pain here I didn't
understand.
So looking back, I did a wholebunch of stuff kind of wrong,
incorrectly, not enough that Iwould have done differently had
(08:17):
I known what I know now.
But it took me a little whilewith adoption therapist and
being in the adoption community,reading the primal wound,
things like that.
That helped me understandadoption trauma and how I can
either help my son work throughit and work through whatever
pain I caused, or I can makethings worse.
So I try the best I can to helphim find resources and
(08:43):
acknowledge the pain he's in anddo whatever I can to try to
make up for the mistakes I made.
Speaker 2 (08:50):
Yeah, and I know that's very hard for you to say,
and I know it's going to behard for listeners to hear as
well.
Parenting is difficult,regardless of the situation.
And Joe's nodding his head yes,and so that's.
You know, that's an affirmationthat mistakes get made all the
(09:10):
time.
I can tell you I just made onea couple of days ago and I'm
like, oh, what a bonehead moveand I mean it was just like
literally that type of a thing,you know I just have one thing
to add.
Speaker 1 (09:23):
Yes, you made mistakes, mom, but I want you to
know, in this, like space, thatI don't take them personally.
Like you are human, you mademistakes.
I'm probably gonna makemistakes when I have kids, like
I learned from you.
But I still will make mistakes.
It's just part of life and Iwant you to understand that.
Still, you're loved by me, nomatter what.
Speaker 3 (09:44):
Oh, Joe, you're the best.
Thank you so much.
Speaker 2 (09:47):
Well, I didn't want to cry, but that is just so, so
precious and I appreciatehearing that and being part of
that exchange.
I do want to take a couplesteps back, if you don't mind.
So, beth, you did divulge inyour dialogue that, joe, you
attempted suicide and you and Italked about that pretty
(10:11):
significantly in our prep, andso this is a major trigger
warning, because I know we'regoing to go there and I want
people to know that that we'renot.
We're not in a space where wewant to hide the struggle, right
.
Speaker 1 (10:26):
Yes.
Speaker 2 (10:27):
It was a really tough decision for you to try to end
your life and you and I spokeabout that and I have thought
about that probably every momentsince we had our prep
conversation, had our prepconversation, and so I just want
(10:49):
to give you a couple of momentsto tell our adoptee community
that may be struggling, you knowkind of the things that were
going through your mind and, ifthere's any, you know things
that you would suggest for themto think about before they take
that step.
Speaker 1 (11:01):
Oh, 100% yes.
I don't know how many years ago, maybe five years ago was the
first attempt.
I was going through a lot withthe drugs and then, as soon as I
touched psychedelics, it kindof changed my chemistry in my
brain, which it does, showing methe other side.
It gave me this awareness thatthere's life after.
(11:27):
For me it's not the all-knowinganswer, but for me it gave me
the sense of, yes, there's lifeafter death.
And I took it the wrong way.
I wanted to be on the otherside rather than live my own
life.
That's the scary thing aboutpsychedelics when you don't take
them as you are supposed toquote unquote, because there's
ways that you can do it safely.
I did.
That's why I spiraled into thisvery dark space.
(11:50):
It seemed dark to outsiders, Ithink, but in my head it was so
peaceful because I wanted tojust be on the other side and I
was for a long time on the drugs, until that day where I tried
to take my own life.
That's when I realized that Idon't like pain.
Pain is what stopped me fromsucceeding in dying.
(12:11):
That pain got me out of it,told me that my body was like
yes, this isn't what it'ssupposed to be, because I
thought it was all rainbows andbutterflies basically on the
other side.
But you have to go through painto get through that.
That's what I learned, and painis not what I love, uh, but
what I guess I can tell othersthat are going through the same
(12:32):
emotions if they're goingthrough that like similar
situation, or if they're justsuicidal and or depressed.
My biggest like thing to say isgo talk to someone if you can.
If you, if you have theopportunity to talk to someone,
take the opportunity.
I know it's hard, but you can'tbring yourself out of that if
you're that low.
(12:53):
Someone else has to or will tryif they want to, because it's
nearly impossible for me.
My subjective like I guess it'sreally difficult to get out of
that spiral by yourself and askfor help.
People want to help.
They don't want to see you dieunless it's most likely.
People want to help.
(13:14):
That's how they get joy out ofthemselves.
So it may be out of narcissismor it could be out of true like
wanting to help, but the mainthing is just ask for that help,
because you won't get it if youdon't ask.
Speaker 2 (13:28):
I would agree with that, and I wonder too sometimes
if there is this barrier ofasking for help from those we
love.
Did you kind of experience thatas well, joe?
Speaker 1 (13:41):
Yes, I fortunately was that wall or that.
Like I guess that wall wasbroken because my parents dove
deep into like researching whatwas going on with me and they
kind of chipped away at the wallfor me, so they gave me the
space to come to them.
That's very fortunate for me.
Other people may not have that,but yes, there's definitely a
(14:03):
wall when you don't want to hurtothers by telling you're hurt
because you think that's goingto hurt them.
But no, there's definitely awall when you don't want to hurt
others by telling you're hurtbecause you think that's going
to hurt them.
But no, they want to help.
And it's a difficult place whenyou feel like you can't ask for
help.
That's a very dark place.
Speaker 2 (14:18):
Yeah, I would agree.
I'm going to insert here alittle bit of information.
There is a national suicidehotline, it's 988.
That's going to be in my shownotes and I would just highly
advocate for anybody that'shurting that's a place to start.
They can help you get to all ofthe next steps and it's
intended to be exactly what youjust said.
(14:38):
They want to help, they aretrained to help.
They are not your parents,they're not your close friends,
and so that boundary that youmay have built up is different,
and you know, I think thatthere's some commonality though,
regardless of how you choose todeal with your trauma, through
psychedelics or through you knowthis path of attempted suicide.
(15:01):
I have been openly speakingthis year about how, for myself,
after I found out my biologicalbeginnings, it was extremely
difficult for a good two yearperiod.
I call it the abyss, and I'mworking my way out of the abyss.
It's not perfect and you know Ijust heard your mom say a few
(15:22):
minutes ago she's working on heras well.
So there's a lot of work to bedone and there's no shame in it,
and I love the fact that we'rehere talking about it so openly.
Speaker 1 (15:32):
Yes, and that's the thing.
There's a stigma around thistopic and it's very unfortunate.
But that's what we're doing andworking on is to get that word
out there and know that it's notshameful to be talking about
this.
It's actually helpful to get itout into the world.
Speaker 2 (15:49):
you're almost like releasing it with your voice
yeah, I am so appreciative thatwe're here today again to talk
about this.
You had a tipping point.
You said you've made more thanone attempt and one was too
painful, one was not, not.
And then you guys were, youknow, in a hospital and, beth,
this is where I know you hadyour aha moment, and could you
(16:12):
kind of walk us a little bitthrough what that meant for you
as a parent looking at yourchild that you've been nurturing
?
What avenues would you giveother parents to also, you know,
consider in this conversation?
Speaker 3 (16:26):
would you give other parents to also, you know,
consider in this conversation.
Yeah, it's really tough foradoptive parents to hit that
wall and go crap.
I thought I was doing a goodthing, I thought the adoption
was wonderful.
I mean, that's what we've beentold, that's what the societal
you know trope is oh look,that's so beautiful.
And you know trope is oh look,that's so beautiful.
(16:46):
And obviously, well, maybe notobviously, but for me I went
into this thinking, oh, I justwant to be a great mom, I really
want to help this child whodoesn't have a parent, and I was
also infertile, so it's verycomplicated.
But to realize that, oh no, itjust shatters your world and a
(17:08):
lot of adoptive parents can'teven go there, they just stay.
Oh, I can't even go near that.
It's so painful to realize.
So I'm actually trying to helppeople with much younger kids
try to realize this stuff a lotsooner.
I think that would have beenbetter than waiting till my kid
was in crisis.
I think that would have beenbetter than waiting till my kid
was in crisis.
But the work that needed to bedone that I'm still doing is
(17:31):
inside my own self.
Well, at first I did try to fixJoey.
He didn't like that too muchand it didn't work very well.
But I chased him around for awhile.
But once I got talking to theadoption therapist and started,
really, I started listening toAdoptees On.
I found your podcast, lisa, andeventually reading all the
(17:52):
books, doing all the things, andjust I'm like, okay, all right,
my kid's in crisis.
I have no choice.
There's no one more desperateto learn than a mother with a
kid in crisis.
So I'm like, okay, just tell mewhat I need to know.
And so I did, and I'm very gladI did, because joy and I are
still together, he's still aliveand he is still in
(18:14):
communication with me and we areboth just kind of on this
journey together and it feels alittle bit like, oh, I don't
know, we're both meant to betogether or I don't know it's
them both meant to be togetheror I don't know.
It's a weird feeling, but I'mjust trying to work on myself
and actually also trying to helpother families too.
Speaker 2 (18:34):
Well, I do like the conversation where you're
tackling working with adopteeparents, with younger children
that type of support mechanism,education and resource.
It is so crucial.
I think about that veryregularly as well.
(18:54):
In terms of my journey.
If my parents had had maybe amore solid support mechanism,
things would have been differentfor them and for me them things
would have been different forthem and for me.
Yeah, I just think that is oneof the areas where we have had
the largest fail.
If we were to line up all theadoption fails through all of
(19:15):
the generations and centuries ofadoption, then that would be
one of them.
Just lack of support, yeah thepost-adoption support.
Speaker 3 (19:24):
They're like, okay, here you go, have fun.
And and, yeah, don't give youany information or resources.
I personally think that boththe parents and the child should
get therapy for life.
You know, as part of theadoption package, package deal,
here you go, yeah why don't youdo that society?
Speaker 1 (19:42):
it's?
It's very confusing to me onlike why people don't understand
because it's like a surfacething like they.
Always confusing to me on likewhy people don't understand
because it's like a surfacething, like they always want to
be on the surface, like thesociety, I guess.
And it's unfortunate, but Iguess our word helps break that
first layer.
And well, that's how thingshappen.
You have to speak up yeah yeahand I was.
Speaker 2 (20:04):
I agree, we're at the surface layer, we are
absolutely at layer one and wehave to keep diving deep, and I
love that thought process aswell.
So you were going to, you weregoing to add a little bit more,
joe, yes.
Speaker 1 (20:17):
Just going to my mom's point on, like we're
continuously on a journeytogether, work continuously on a
journey together, I I was likewhen I kind of came out of the
chaos I finally realized Iactually have a better
relationship with my mom than Iever did before.
And that's kind of what happenswhen you work and be honest,
(20:38):
like truly honest, that you canhave like this, no stress, no
animosity, like relationship.
I'm fortunate to have that withmy mother, but I think
communication and honestcommunication really helps, even
with your therapist probably.
Speaker 2 (20:55):
Yeah, you know, what's really interesting about
that is finding the safe place.
And so what do you both believemay have prevented it from
being a safe place prior tocrisis?
And the reason I ask that is,I'm struggling with a little bit
of that in my own world, whereI know I have things I need to
(21:21):
communicate, but no matter whomI'm talking to or what I'm
talking about, it's still notquite safe enough for me.
Yeah Right.
Speaker 1 (21:34):
Actually, that's a great question.
I haven't even thought aboutthat.
My mom may have a point, I justI have.
I can think about it, but rightnow it just comes to mind
actually.
Speaker 3 (21:45):
I can think of one thing.
I did that shut a door.
That didn't help.
When Joey was seven or eight orso, he said, mom, we were in
the car.
He said, mom, I'm really sadbecause I feel like my mom threw
me away and I know what I wouldsay now.
But back then I said oh, honey,oh, no, no, no, she didn't
throw you away, she loved youand we loved you.
(22:08):
It's all good and don't worry,don't be sad.
So, oh, it just hurts, hurts tosay that out loud that I did
that.
But what that taught joey isthat, oh, I can't bring mom, my
mom's not safe to talk aboutthis part, this sadness I have
inside me.
It's not safe to talk to herbecause, look, it made her
really sad and she's likepaddling trying to fix it.
And that's not what he needed.
(22:29):
At that point he needed me tosay, oh, that must be really sad
man.
What kind of support do youneed around that?
Or you want to talk about it,you know.
But at that point I didn'tunderstand and I didn't have the
personal growth yet to be ableto hold that with him.
I just got kind of defensiveand like, oh, but we're fine,
we're good, we're fine, we'refine.
(22:49):
I don't know if you rememberthat.
Speaker 1 (22:52):
Joey, yes, I actually do.
I don't know if I was in abooster seat or something like
that.
I just remember sitting in thecar expressing my emotions and
feeling like I was so young.
But I just remember feelingthis emotion of like not safe,
yeah, but safe at the same time,because you're my mother.
(23:13):
But it's like this differenttype of safe, yeah, emotional
the wall, wall that wall but Iactually thought of a few ideas
of why I couldn't be open on myside towards my parents is
because the drugs obviouslystarted prior to everything kind
of going down and that's a bigthing with, I guess, society.
That is a very bad thing to dois drugs and when I started I
(23:35):
felt safe.
I felt very safe with mycommunity and the substances but
, I didn't feel safe explainingthat to my closest people
because I felt like it was tabooor very not good to express.
But now that I can learn andstuff and went through a lot of
experiences that there is nowrong question and there's no
(24:00):
right answer, yeah, it was toughbecause Joey started when he
was about 13.
Speaker 3 (24:04):
So what 13 year old is going to say hey mom, what do
you think about me?
I mean, that's a toughsituation for anybody.
Speaker 2 (24:13):
Yeah, yeah.
I do strongly believe, though,that adoptees really struggle
with the communication ofemotion at young ages, and if
you do not feel safe at a youngage, it's just going to
perpetuate as you continue yourjourney.
I'll speak to my own journey.
(24:36):
It is very hard for me toarticulate to people how hard it
is to not know where you werefor six months of your life.
So I have what I call life gap,where there's six months from
birth to adoption day that Ireally I haven't done enough
research on, because Iresearched fatigue as well,
(24:58):
right, and so that period oftime, as a human means, I was on
the earth, but there's nothingreally documenting my existence,
or what is documented isn't inmy possession, and so it makes
me sometimes just feel awkward,and the response I get when I
(25:18):
share that out is well, you werea baby and you wouldn't
remember it anyway well sure but, you.
But you know that the personthat that birthed you, picked
you up, fed you, coddled you,bathed you, clothed you.
You know who that is.
You have pictures you're onemonth, you're two months, you're
three, right, all that stuff.
It's very hard to share thatout and that kind of stuff, even
(25:42):
at my age, and not get the walland I'm like, okay, then I know
you're not safe for me to talkto about these types of things
yeah yeah, you find out prettyquickly, huh yes, I was
literally gonna say it's like,you know, when you can't trust
someone, uh, but that'sunfortunate, because you should
be able to trust people in thisworld.
Speaker 1 (26:02):
But that's just how the world is, and I don't want
to be grim, but that's how Ifeel.
Speaker 2 (26:08):
Yeah, it makes it a challenge for adoptees and
that's the struggle that I thinkwe work through on a regular,
regular, regular.
Speaker 3 (26:16):
Can.
Speaker 2 (26:16):
I put another regular in there Basis.
Of course, and that's why we'retalking today.
Well, this journey has had somepositive outcomes.
You've talked about the kind ofthe reunification of your
guys's relationship, but arethere other positive outcomes
that you guys would like toshare today?
Speaker 3 (26:34):
Well, we made a podcast.
It was Joe's idea to start thepodcast.
It used to be called Safe HomePodcast and now it's called
Unraveling Adoption.
Do you want to talk about it,Joe?
Speaker 1 (26:43):
Yeah, I think the whole idea was I'll just be
brief about it we were on thefreeway driving.
I was like why don't we start apodcast?
We were listening to a podcastor something and I said we could
probably help someone if wejust talked about it just openly
.
And I guess my mom really likedthe idea.
And then we jumped on it and itbecame a thing and after the
(27:04):
first episode it was like ourgoal is to help at least one
person, one person.
And we have succeeded.
And I think we've well farsucceeded past that and I'm just
very, very fortunate to be ableto express my self.
I don't know know why I can doit, but it's easy for me.
(27:25):
I know it's not easy foreveryone, but I know this will
help someone at one point.
That's why I do it, because I'mall about the nurturing and
love of people and that's whatpeople need.
Speaker 3 (27:35):
Joey and I are both so mission driven.
We just want to help otherfamilies, you know, not go
through the horrible stuff thatwe've gone through.
If we can catch them a littlesooner or give them, maybe they
are going through really toughstuff and they can go.
Oh, we're not the only ones.
Okay, okay and also.
Speaker 1 (27:52):
I believe in my belief you can't change anyone's
like perspective until they gothrough it.
So I think my point of view isthat if someone goes through it
like the hard, they're probablygoing to be more knowledgeable
than people that didn't gothrough it.
That's just my personal.
Just don't go through it onpurpose, just to learn more.
Speaker 3 (28:14):
Joey has a PhD in life skills here.
Speaker 2 (28:21):
Yeah, there's something to be said for that
too.
I don't need to go through whatyou went through in order to
learn from you, and I've learneda lot from you in two
conversations, so that'simportant that we understand.
Learning someone else's lifelesson doesn't mean we have to
live through it, but we can findthe warning signs early, or the
(28:45):
red flags, if that's what youwant to call them, whatever it
is and then work towards findingthe right tool for ourselves to
overcome that.
I love the fact that you guysstarted a podcast with the
mission.
Your why was just touch oneperson.
I have said my why is that samereason more times than I can
(29:07):
count right now, so I love that.
But I also know for both of you, this experience brought out a
little bit of your creativityand it allowed you both to
elevate your creative side.
So, joe, tell us kind of alittle bit of what you're doing,
not only speaking and talking.
But how are you really?
You know, elevating yourselfand continuing to grow, and this
(29:32):
is a journey that's going to goon for a while.
Speaker 1 (29:35):
Oh yeah, I agree with that and I personally believe
it never ends Like.
That.
May sound really scary, but inthe end you're gonna learn new
stuff every single day.
And what kind of came out of mewas this passion for music, and
music gave me an expression,that like a voice, like a bigger
(29:55):
voice than because I canpublish, I can get things out
there, because I understand mostof that stuff.
But music gave me a canvas, andI didn't know I had that in me
until after crisis.
Actually, I remember this one.
I just started listening tobeats and rapping over them one
of my attempts.
But I was in Nevada in one ofthese lockdown facilities and I
(30:18):
made a beat and rapped over itand I was like, huh, this is a
good way to express myself and Iwas talking about very hard
things and my truth.
That's how I get it out, andit's not just get views or
whatever.
It's also to let myself get itout and hear it back and learn
from it.
And that's what my creativeexpression came out.
Speaker 2 (30:41):
And Beth yours came out in furthering your podcast.
You guys started out with thepodcast was Safe Home, if I
remember correctly, and you'venow transitioned to be a little
bit more adoption centric foradoptive parents and focusing in
on some really tough subjects,but you've also become a life
(31:04):
coach, if I remember correctly.
Do you want to tell us a littlebit about kind of your path
forward?
Speaker 3 (31:10):
Yeah, I had no idea I would do any of this stuff.
I've been a musician my wholelife, like a classical musician,
music director type person.
This is totally a new wheelhouse for me.
But I realized I need to getsome sort of training and
certification because I want tohelp other parents and not just,
like you know, casually, but Ireally want to help them.
So I got certified through theVirginia Satir Global Network
(31:33):
Coaching and Mentoring Program,which is amazing, and I love my
coaching.
It's opened up a whole new worldfor me and I think a lot of
adoptive parents just wantanother person that goes yeah,
yep, yep, I hear you reallytough.
And my coaching it doesn't havea whole lot of answers for
(31:55):
people, but I guide people tohelp them find their own truth,
their own answers.
So it's been a really bigblessing to have that and I've
learned so much and I'm startingto do more advocacy work out in
the community and so I'mfeeling very driven to do this
work.
I'm still doing a little bit ofmusic, but it's mostly this now
(32:17):
.
Well, as we come to a closetoday, mostly this now.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
Well, as we come to a close today, is there anything
that either of the two of youwould have liked me to have
asked you?
Speaker 3 (32:26):
Do you want to tell about our book?
Speaker 1 (32:28):
You can do that.
I just have one statement thatI want to say.
It's a closing out statement,if that's okay, but you go first
.
Speaker 3 (32:34):
Oh no, you go first.
Adoptees first oh, you want togo last.
Okay, adoptees get to pick.
Then, okay, we are writing abook.
We're self-publishing it, sowe'll just put it on Amazon, and
it's going to be about adopteesand suicide, suicidality, and
Joe and I are writing a portionof it, and I have about over a
dozen other adoptees and birthparents and adoptive parents
(32:55):
that have submitted poems andessays, and then it has a whole
section of resources.
So we hope it's going to be areally useful resource for
parents and for therapists andteachers and anyone that cares
about adoptees.
So that's kind of our currentproject.
Speaker 2 (33:12):
What is your target publish date?
Speaker 3 (33:15):
I'm hoping by the end of April.
Speaker 2 (33:18):
All right.
So that's you, beth, kind oftalking a little bit about this
book and what a great project,and I think there will be great
benefits from it as well.
Joe, what about you?
Speaker 1 (33:30):
I just want to state something that a lot of people
don't hear from either theirloved ones or close people, is
that, no matter what, you'reloved by someone in your life
and you will be okay.
I know it seems so hard rightnow if you're in that space, but
if you are listening to thisright now and in a hard spot, my
(33:52):
thoughts are to you, anyonewho's being hurt or struggling.
I want you to know there'ssomeone out there that is
thinking about the hurt and youare loved.
I'm sorry if you weren'tnurtured.
Nurturing is supposed to beeasy for people, but it's not
and it's very difficult and Iunderstand a lot of people don't
get nurturing.
But love you can give endlessly.
(34:13):
So that's all I have to say.
Speaker 2 (34:16):
Well, I think you've almost rendered me speechless.
That is beautiful.
I am so glad you guys have beenon the show and I want to say
thank you.
You are welcome here any, anytime, and what a blessing, what
a blessing.
And thank you for entering myworld as well.
(34:37):
It's been a pleasure, thank you.
Thank you for having us.
Thank you, we appreciate it.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopting journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadoptingcom.
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