April 9, 2024 • 40 mins
Have you ever pondered the threads of history of adoption and how it intertwines to shape lives? Rebecca Wellington joins us in a thought provoking conversation that reaches into the depths of her own adoption story, the heartache of losing her sister, and the impetus behind her touching book, "Who is a Worthy Mother? An Intimate History of Adoption." Through her eyes, we journey across the emotional landscape adoptees traverse, with societal pressures lurking like shadows along the path, and discover how shared stories can light the way for many in search of connection and understanding.
The episode unfurls the adoption narrative across time, from the ancient world's openness to the shrouded practices of today. We scrutinize the stark contrasts in history, from Hammurabi's Code to modern America, casting a light on the complexities and transformations of adoption ethics. Notably, we ponder the implications of recent Supreme Court rulings on the rights of adoptive and birth parents alike. Rebecca's analysis is both historic and timely, offering a window into the enduring search for identity that adoptees often face, amidst a culture shrouded in secrecy and stigma.
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:05):
The point that I think we're both making about
Hammurabi's Code and MarcusAurelius' and the Roman Empire's
.
There wasn't a level of shamearound it and this dissection
between the adoptee and thebirth community.
That I think is sort of almost,maybe uniquely American.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Anne.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, identity, lifesearch and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, rebecca Wellington.
Welcome to the show, rebecca.
Thank you so much, lisa Ann.
Well, it is an honor to haveyou here on the show.
(01:00):
I don't know how this hashappened, but somewhere along
the lines of my trajectory andjourney, I've become the book
lady for many authors, and youare one of them.
I'm going to fall in a littlebit.
I read your book.
There are only a few that havehugely moved me.
I like all of the books, butmajor movement in how I approach
(01:22):
things, and yours is one ofthem, and so the title of your
book is who is a Worthy Mother?
An Intimate History of Adoptionwhich is a fantastic title, and
before we get too much into whatit's about, I always like to
have the guests share a littlebit about their adoption story.
(01:44):
Would you mind doing that forus?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
No, not at all.
So I mean my adoption story isthe etymology of the book, so
they're intimately connected.
So I was adopted.
I was born first.
I was born in June 29th 1975 inLA County, california, born at
(02:09):
Northridge Hospital in LA County, and I was the time the law
stipulated that there had to bea wait of two days before my
adoptive parents could come pickme up.
And then they picked me up.
I guess that would have beenlike July 2nd.
Yeah, I traveled up toWashington state where I've
(02:31):
lived my life.
I've always known.
I was adopted, but I've alwayssort of sat in these two worlds.
One world that I was told,which I heard all the time from
everybody, was you're so lucky,right, you should be grateful.
You're so lucky you were savedfrom whatever.
(02:52):
What I was saved from I don'tknow because I know nothing.
And then the other world that Isat in, really quietly and
alone, was this reallyuncomfortable tension of not
knowing and being sort of cutoff from whatever my past was,
and I kind of describe it aslike missing a foot, you know,
missing a root, and I think Ispent a lot of my energy through
(03:16):
my life ignoring thatuncomfortable silence, part and
kind of literally limping aroundwithout the foot, without that
root.
Because you know my story is.
I wrote it for my sister, who Ilost in 2017 to a drug overdose
.
She was older than me, she wasalso adopted from a different
(03:39):
birth mother and she also gave achild up for adoption.
So I write about in the storythat you know she was the one
person in my life who, on areally visceral, deep level,
kind of got it what it was likethat discomfort that we lived
with, that we existed with that.
You know we didn't quite fit in, that things were uncomfortable
and there was a silence aroundthings that we couldn't talk
(04:00):
about.
Her response to that missingroot or that missing foot was to
just say I don't know if I canswear.
Her response was to say fuckyou to everything, like if I
can't assimilate into thisadoptive family and into this
culture and you can't accept whoI am and that I look different.
(04:22):
I mean, we're both white.
We were adopted by whiteparents, so there was a deep
level of privilege there becausewe could sort of pass, but she
couldn't pass as well as I could.
I looked enough like my cousins.
I looked enough like sort of myparents that I could pass and
get away with it.
She couldn't.
She had like bleach, blondehair, blue eyes stood out and
(04:44):
she couldn't assimilate in.
And so her response was just tosay fuck you, I'm, I'm doing it
my way, I'm going to burneverything down.
And I kind of watched growing up, watched her resistance to that
sort of that desire that I wasalways feeling like I have to be
the good girl.
I have to prove to my parentsthat they didn't make a mistake
(05:07):
adopting me.
Right.
My birth mom couldn't keep me.
I was a mistake for her.
I better not be a mistake forthem.
And my whole childhood waswatching my sister just amplify,
being the mistake like in yourface.
I am the mistake.
It really wasn't until she diedthat I, you know, got that so
(05:30):
much of her rage was just thepain we both felt around
adoption and that there was lackof an opportunity to talk about
it and recognize that it washard.
So you know, I lived with sortof this uncomfortable silence my
whole life until she died, andthen her death was the impetus
(05:51):
for writing the book that andalso a couple of years prior to
her death I had my own twochildren and to this day, my two
daughters are the only peopleI've ever met who I'm
biologically related to.
So those two moments of youknow, birth followed by death,
(06:13):
really catapulted me out of youknow, like adoptees will say,
out of the fog, that mist ofeverything's fine, everything's
great, just don't question ittoo much.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
What I find very endearing in your story is the
acknowledgement of you and yoursister at two opposite ends of
that spectrum the one child thathas all of the same feelings
you have and how you guys areboth navigating the world in
that Her attitude of fuck you,as you said, and your attitude
(06:49):
of I've got to do the best thatI can and be the best that I can
, and I can see that in thestory that you've told and
authored.
What I also find absolutelyintriguing about your approach,
though, this isn't just a storyabout you and your sister.
This is you taking anotherpassion of your life and deeply
(07:11):
diving into it, and that passionis history.
Can you kind of share a littlebit with our listening audience,
you know kind of youreducational background and what
pulls you to history, and thenhow you leverage that for this
book for you and for your sister?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, so.
So my sister died in 2017, inAugust, august 19th 2017.
And two months prior, Igraduated with a doctorate in
education history from theUniversity of Washington.
So, leading up to her death, Ihad been spending all my time
(07:57):
literally in the archives doinghistorical work.
And, yeah, the roots of my loveof history, I think goes back
further than that.
I taught high school historyfor a number of years.
I just really I think history isso powerful in helping us
(08:18):
understand not where we camefrom, but where we want to go.
And I just want to read thisquote because I think it's from
the book.
I think it kind of summarizeswhy history is so meaningful to
me.
So this is from who is a WorthyMother?
In her memoir detailing hersearch for her birth mother,
katrina Maxton Graham describesadoption as a quote amputation
(08:42):
from history, unquote.
To heal the wound of thisamputation, the silence and lies
that defined us, I had to reachout to those historical roots
and threads and reattach them.
History, the true stories ofthe past, became my way of
speaking truth to power forRachel, my sister, now that she
(09:04):
had lost her voice in death.
History is constantly stickingits fingers into our present
everyday lives.
Whether or not we're aware ofit, history has incredible power
.
It can paint pictures of wherewe came from and how the world
and people in it looked, actedand believed.
This is weighty, because how weunderstand ourselves and the
(09:25):
world around us in this currentmoment is largely defined and
shaped by what happened in thepast.
This is the power of historicalnarratives and historical
memories.
When people's lives in the pastare silenced, this in turn
silences people's lives in thepresent.
But when these stories are told, it changes our understanding
(09:48):
of the present world.
And when people's stories areshared, especially the lives of
people who deliberately havebeen traumatized and silenced,
those awoken historicalnarratives directly affect the
lives of people in the presentand we start to view the world
and our place in it differently.
History is powerful.
(10:09):
So that's kind of, in anutshell, my love of the power
of history.
After my sister died, I knew Ihad to find out about my own
history as an adoptee, and Irealized pretty quickly how
difficult that would be, becauseI was adopted in California and
(10:30):
I'm still, you know, shackledby sealed records.
I cannot get access to myoriginal birth records.
So, like, literally, I couldn'tget to my own history, which,
like infuriated me and, like Isaid, I just finished this
doctorate in education historyand I, you know, had gotten a
certificate that said you knowhow to do historical research.
(10:53):
So I was like, okay, I can dothat.
So I just started readingeverything I could get my hands
on about the history of adoptionand adoption policy in America
to try to answer at least theinitial question, which was why
can't I get my birth records.
(11:13):
And one of the first books I gotmy hands on was by Wayne Karp.
He's kind of like the godfatherof history, history of adoption
in America.
He literally wrote the bookAdoption in America.
So I wrote, I read everythinghe wrote and I just was like, oh
my gosh, this is just soshocking and horrific.
(11:37):
Why don't we all know this?
Like we need to know thesestories.
And so I was like well, okay, Iguess I better start writing to
know these stories.
And so I was like well, okay, Iguess I better start writing,
putting them all together andwriting them.
And that was kind of the.
That was the path in to writingthis book.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
The reason I fawn over you in this context is
because I learned so much aboutthe history of adoption things
that I thought I knew, things Iclearly didn't know and many
like OMG, and I don't even knowsometimes if I have the right
acronym, expression,abbreviation, to really
(12:16):
encapsulate some of the thingsthat you have researched and
pulled together for the readerand for adoptees who want to dig
a little bit deeper into justbase understanding of how this
whole thing started,predominantly in America, how it
continually grew into what wenow know to be this
(12:37):
multi-billion dollar business.
And those are figures that wecan't get a hold of because no
one's going to publish.
I processed 10 adoptees at 10Kand I made a year.
That's not going to happen, butwe can draw some you know,
lines of spark lines, if that'swhat you want to call them, that
(12:57):
say we know in essence there'sabout X number of births and
adoptions in a year at a goingrate of, you know, let's say,
10k, 50k, whatever it is.
You can create the math problemyourself and go forward, but
just having a real coreunderstanding of things that
were happening not only to babyscoop era but indigenous eras
(13:22):
and all of the federal acts I'mgoing to call them, you know,
kind of like a declaration or anact, got it.
I was floored.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, well, that's why I had to look at the policy,
because I in undergrad Istudied sociology and I really,
I'm really aware I understandthe impact that policy and laws
and institutions have on thehuman experience.
And, like if I were tounderstand what happened to me,
(13:51):
I had to understand those legalforces that set up systems that
made our situations happen.
And I do want to say you saidit, you know, started in America
.
I actually learned from mydaughter, who's in sixth grade,
who was studying Hammurabi'scode, which is sort of like
that's what you do Sixth gradeworld history, ancient Sumeria.
(14:15):
Adoption was in Hammurabi's code.
Right, not a new concept.
There have been systems ofadoption in different cultures
around the world for millennia.
But what just blew my mind isin Hammurabi's code.
In one of the codes aboutadoption, it explicitly states
(14:37):
that the adoptee has the rightto leave their adopted family
and go back to their birthfamily if they choose to.
Okay, so that was ancientSumeria.
And here in America over thelast 100 years, we have like
more draconian laws of adoptionand ancient Sumeria.
(15:00):
So in a way, it's almost likewe're going backwards with the
way we've approached adoption.
I was just floored.
Yeah, I just learned that acouple of weeks ago from my
sixth grader.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
All right, so now I'm going to double down.
I am reading a book and I'mgoing to double down in this way
.
We do spend a good amount ofour time talking about American
adoption and I do know thatthere are threads of
conversation that spawn off ofthe Georgia Tann story, which I
(15:34):
live in Tennessee and so I'mvery familiar with the Georgia
Tann story.
I've done that historicalresearch.
She was an awful woman.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I don't know that story, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So Georgia Tann is.
Georgia Tann was a woman herein the South.
She lived in the Memphis area.
She basically stole childrenand gave them to other families
for adoption.
She made boatloads of money.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay, I do know that story.
Yeah, I do know that story.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, and Lisa Wingate wrote the book before we
.
What's the name of the bookBefore we Were Yours, I believe
is the name of the title.
Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So her fictionalization of thatstory is that book, lisa
Wingate, Before we Were Yours,which is loosely based off of
the Georgia Tann story which ishere in Tennessee, memphis, very
(16:26):
corrupt.
You layer on yet another depthof history goes a little further
back.
I am reading.
I am reading totally notrelated to adoption.
How to Think Like a RomanEmperor.
The book is by Donald JRobertson and it is about Stoics
.
It is about the philosophy ofthe Stoics and who are the key
(16:48):
Stoics?
And it's Seneca and MarcusAurelius.
Marcus's brother was adopted,marcus was adopted, and then
there's that whole conversationin the book about philosophers
and adoption.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
But they knew their beginnings.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
They knew their family.
They knew their lineage right,and so it had such a different
twist.
And my point here is to tagonto yours, which is we do have
this maybe blind spot or alittle bit of a tunnel vision on
how far back the concept ofadoption goes, but we can
(17:31):
clearly find it all the way backto Roman emperor times.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, but the point that I think we're both making
about Hammurabi's code andMarcus Aurelius' in the Roman
empires there wasn't a level ofshame around it.
And this dissection between theadoptee and the birth community
that I think is sort of almost,maybe uniquely American, like
(18:01):
the way we have been crafting itand practicing it over the last
century, is just so in thisidea that we'll do it.
But it's shameful and we haveto hide it.
You know, that is what makes, Ithink, our nation's story about
it so disturbing is the andthat's kind of the claim of the
book is that it's the secrecyand the lies that are just just
(18:26):
drenched the whole history of it.
It's so problematic, right?
It's not that adoption happens,it's that there's just really
abusive, manipulative lying andcoercion and abuse all saturated
around it.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, the practice is definitely bent.
All saturated around it.
Yeah, the practice isdefinitely bent.
Yeah, it's just hard to wrapour minds around the existence
of ourselves as humans who arewalking on earth that have this
other thing.
That also is our identity.
It's not going away.
I'm never not going to beadopted.
(19:06):
I'm never not going to beadopted.
I'm never not going to be onthis journey and so that just
that part of my identity isseated in exactly what you said
so much shame and hurt andsecrecy and exclusion.
It is very hard to navigatesome of the just general life
things, knowing that as well,some of the just general life
(19:31):
things, knowing that as well.
And we could find some reallygood historical practices around
the topic if we really lookedhard enough and we could hit
some reset buttons, I suspect,if we really wanted to.
But I will go back to hard todo when it's a very lucrative
business.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yes, yes, it's a market, it's all part of a
market economy and it's a verylucrative business.
Yes, yes, it's, it's a market,it's a, it's all part of a
market economy and it's it'sheavily influenced by supply and
demand, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And you, you tackled that.
You tackled that very well inone of your chapters, I believe
it was.
You'll need to correct me Is itthe reclaiming chapter, or was
it the mother, the motherhoodchapter, where you pretty much
called out the Supreme Courtwithout calling out the Supreme
Court?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh, but I do call out the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, you call out a particular right, you absolutely
call her out.
And I thought, oh, you did thatwas such grace, you're so much
better than I am.
That's out.
And I thought, oh, you did thatwas such grace, you're so much
better than I am.
That's exactly what I thought.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I was like oh, she's so sweet, she did it so nice
yeah, yeah, I called out AmyConey Barrett, I called out
Samuel Alito, because theyreally they had their hands on
the lever of the Dobbs decisionand, I think, had the most
powerful commentaries in thatdecision.
(20:54):
And it was Alito, particularlyin his footnotes and his
comments in his decision, wherehe directly highlights the
needed supply to meet the demandof adoptable babies and how,
(21:14):
yeah, how, reversing Roe couldcreate a new supply chain of
adoptable babies which just,it's the way it's just he
describes it.
It's like, oh yeah, we're.
We're talking about a market.
It's the market economy.
The babies are the commodityand when you can see that people
will pay you know, I mentionedHolt International, which is one
(21:39):
of the major internationaladoption organizations,
industries that doestransnational adoption people
will pay upwards of like $60,000, $70,000 for a baby.
That's a lot of money.
That's a lot of money goinginto a lot of different hands.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I would agree.
You wrote about both of thesehumans.
I'm trying to be reallyrespectful in your introduction
and I do know it was later on inthe book.
I'm trying to be reallyrespectful in your introduction
and I do know it was later on inthe book.
I just want to read to you whatyou wrote and this is the part
that I just was astounded, forthe whole project of adoption is
contingent on making valuejudgments about a pregnancy,
(22:22):
about who is a worthy mother andwho is a worthy baby.
I'm going to pause right there.
Right, because we lose worththrough this process.
I know we do.
I know I do.
I'll speak only for myself.
It's sometimes hard to remember.
We are worthy humans.
In legal arguments heard in theSupreme Court case of Dobbs v
(22:43):
Jackson Women's HealthOrganization, justice Amy Coney
Barrett suggested that adoptioncould render the issue of
abortion irrelevant.
Irrelevant, like how does thathappen?
You don't have to be on eitherside of it to say it's an
irrelevant act.
That has nothing to do with thewhole conversation of whether
(23:03):
it's right or wrong to say it'sirrelevant.
That just boggles my mind.
I could go on and then I'llstart jabbering, and I'm almost
jabbering as it is.
So there we go.
Justice Samuel Alito echoed thesame sentiment in his 2022
opinion overturning the 1973 Roeversus Wade decision, in which
(23:24):
he justified abolishing abortionrights by arguing that the
domestic supply of infantsrelinquished at birth or within
the first month of life andavailable to be adopted has
become virtually non-existent.
And I just want to say amen,gosh, it should have been.
Okay.
That's my soapbox moment.
So frustrating.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
So, frustrating frustrating, so frustrating.
Well, I think people can getaway with saying that and we can
hear him say that and hear hersay that and not find it
problematic because we don'tknow the history, when we know
the history and we know all thedifferent layers of abuse that
(24:06):
have happened for decades tohundreds of thousands of women,
millions of you know, if we wereto put it all together, the
numbers of women who haverelinquished babies by force, by
coercion, here in the UnitedStates, across the globe, and
whose babies have been funneledto the United States.
(24:28):
Right, I mean, I guess my hopewith the book is that it really,
really problematizes what thosetwo justices said in their
opinions, so that we listen tothose opinions differently.
You know they don't land aseasily for us differently.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know they don't land as easily for us.
Well, I would also add to thatto use the information that you
are providing in your book tobecome even more knowledgeable
and use it as a source for that,which is why I love it.
I learned again I think I saidit a couple times already.
I learned so much about historyof the practice that I didn't
know.
So let's transition a littlebit.
(25:15):
Has this been a healingadventure for you in terms of
the loss of your sister?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, you should ask my therapist.
You should ask my therapist.
I mean, it's been really hard.
Writing the book was likecutting myself and then pouring
lemon juice on the cut and thenit would heal a little bit and
then I would cut on that sameincision again.
I mean, that's what the writingprocess felt like.
(25:45):
It was so painful, it was sopainful to read this history and
then to put it in.
You know, look at it throughthe lens of my childhood and
then her and think about how shesuffered, especially later in
her life.
But I also know from mytherapist with grief.
(26:08):
I mean, I started.
It was my therapist who told meBecky, you got to start writing
down your stories of yourchildhood and that was like how
I could grieve the loss of mysister, kind of how I started
writing this book.
So it really started in therapyand I think that where my
therapist was coming from wasthat to really deal with grief
(26:32):
you can't circumvent it, youcan't just fix it, like you
literally have to walk into itand walk through it, into the
shit, like you can't get on aboat and go over it or around it
.
And so I still feel like I'm init, but I'm in it deeper and
I'm further along than I wascertainly before I started
(26:55):
writing the book.
So like I'm like carrying thebook with me as I wade into this
ocean of shit, but I have thebook with me.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I truly believe that, just as we speak of adoption as
a journey, grief is part ofthat in all facets, and there is
never an end or a start, really, depending on how you really
look at it, because you can bein any of the phases.
You could start at denialbefore you're at the other
(27:27):
phases, could start at denialbefore you're at you know the
other, the other phases, or youcould start at the deep-seated
loss stage and then get todenial and go back through
several times all.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Of that's very practical and and and everybody
has to have their own journey.
Like there's no one path, likeyou have your path.
If you just gotta walk, walk it, and your path is different
from somebody else's path.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, I would agree.
Well, you also mentioned thatyour two children, your
daughters, are the onlybiological family members you
have to date in your life andwe've noted.
Your adoption records areclosed and you've got this big
project going forward.
What are you kind of thinkingis going to be your path to the
(28:17):
next step of finding otherbiological family, or do you
have no desire to?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh, I like, definitely have a desire.
I mean, I think that's part ofthe book is just acknowledging
yes, I need to, I would need toreconnect with these roots
somehow Right.
And so much of the book is justme learning how important that
is.
And that's where I really tapinto some of the really profound
(28:47):
Indigenous scholars who I'vehad the privilege of studying
with and working with, whoreally taught me a lot about,
from an Indigenous perspective,the importance of our ancestral
connections.
Like you can't just sever thattie, the fact that, like our
last century of adoption policywas based on this idea that you
(29:11):
can just literally hack, hackthe umbilical cord and hand the
kid to somebody else and justlike pretend it didn't happen.
Like that's so wrong, it's soincorrect.
And like we carry the blood ofour ancestors in our body, like
our memories are imprinted bytheir, their memories and their
(29:33):
experiences.
So, yeah, I think partly thejourney of writing the book and
meeting all these amazing peopleis the just coming to awareness
that I need to find someconnections, whether those
people are alive or not, youknow, just get some of those
answers.
So that is my next step afterthe book tour.
(29:57):
After you know, I take a littlebreak.
This summer I did connect withsome amazing people at Adoption
Network Cleveland.
Betsy Norris, who's the founderof that phenomenal organization
, actually put me in touch withone of the search angels.
(30:17):
I don't know if she goes bythat title, but that's like a
term if you're familiar withwhat a search angel is.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yep, it's a very common term.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yes, yeah, I mean like that's how unaware I was of
the adoption world, even thoughI'm an adoptee.
I just learned recently of thisterm search angel, and so I
spoke with one of them, whoworks with Adoption Network
Cleveland, and she was like, oh,I have helped people born in
your same year, born inCalifornia, and they've gotten
(30:47):
access to records.
So I'm like, so just speakingwith her, it's like, oh, this
door that I didn't even knowexisted just kind of popped open
and so, yes, I will walkthrough that door, maybe at this
summer or something.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
yeah, I mean, there's no timeline on and I can only
encourage you have to do it atyour own pace.
There's so much to that, thatportion of the journey, and I
have advocated no matter howmuch you think you're ready,
you're going to be faced withsomething.
(31:23):
I will give an example.
Just this past weekend, I had abiological family member post a
meme about adoption and wantingto have been given up for
adoption, or something alongthose lines.
It was so innocent, it was soinnocent.
And then there were comments,you know, from other biological
(31:48):
family members.
You know we wouldn't, wewouldn't give you up, and I was
just like I can't read this,I've just gotta, I've gotta
close that one out.
It was innocent, though, andthat's the really, that's the
really sad part of what I'msharing, because I don't hold an
animosity towards that personfor posting something that is
(32:09):
truly, you know in their mindskind of funny, and I'm looking
at it going well.
Hello over here Like.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm connected on this social media site.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And yeah it's.
I wasn't prepared for that, Iwasn't prepared for all this.
Time has passed since we'veconnected and I wasn't prepared
for a meme to be posted and forthe way I felt about it and I
almost felt I was slighted, andyou not.
You not understand all thethings I've been saying publicly
(32:40):
about this experience.
So you know we all have our ownjourney and you know it's a.
It's quite the adventure forsure.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, but sort of in that, in that vein, I think
what's happening right now and Imean I think it's kind of
unique right now because that'swhat other people who, who have
been public advocates, adopteerights advocates for years, are
telling me that there's thisgroundswell of sort of a
movement of just phenomenalbooks that are coming out.
(33:12):
Right, I want to talk aboutGretchen Sisson's amazing book
Relinquished I get to do a booktalk with her in May in Berkeley
, I'm so grateful.
Sarah Easterly, adoptionUnfiltered I get to do a talk
with her soon.
And Susan Ito's memoir.
(33:32):
I mean there are just theseamazing books that are coming
out talking about the adoptedexperience and the birth mother
experience, and I think that'sgoing to shift things because
when those stories enter themainstream meta-narrative, then
people it kind of questionspeople when they want to make
(33:56):
those comments right.
There's more of an awarenessaround the experience because
it's publicly talked about andpeople will start to understand
it more, I think.
So it gives me a lot of hope.
I think things will reallyshift.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I do too, and there are so many books coming out now
.
There have been so many goodbooks from my entrance into the
community over the last fiveplus years and really plus years
is more accurate that havestarted prompting and making
adoptees feel comfortable.
(34:31):
in writing in creative arts, inplay production, in music, in
blogging and in podcasting andother events.
So I agree with you thegroundswell is really cool to
watch.
It's also cool to be part of itand you know, those books that
you mentioned are the latest ina large number of really great
(34:55):
authors.
And what's really good right nowabout our community too,
rebecca, is that I'll talk toyou and we'll talk about the
books that are resonating withyou and I'll share books that
are resonating with me, andwe'll find that there might be
one or two in common.
And then we'll also find, oh mygosh, I haven't read that one,
(35:15):
or I didn't know that one wasavailable.
And that has happened in threeor four conversations recently
where I have been with otheradoptees and they're like have
you read so-and-so's book?
And I'll be like not even aclue that that one existed, but
did you read?
You know?
her book and they're like no, Ididn't even know that one
existed.
And it's such a, it's such awarming feeling, it really is.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, and I think podcasts are amplifying those
conversations in such a cool way, like there are some just
awesome adoption podcasts outthere that I've been like binge,
including yours.
Just look at my drive to workevery day and I'm just like wow,
there are all these peoplehaving these amazing
conversations you know who knewWell, and I think that's really
(36:02):
important.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
It's part of the advocation, part of our
conversation.
My why has always been oneperson and I'm always thankful.
I really am appreciative forevery person that wants to bear
their soul and talk.
It's hard.
We end up reliving it sometimes.
At the same time, I want tolift up every podcaster that I
(36:24):
know of, and if someone says,did you hear about the making of
me?
And I can say I have, and I'm alistener and go check it out.
Or Damon Davis's, who am Ireally?
And I can go, yep, I know thatone too.
I was a guest twice on that.
Man, go check that out.
But man, go check that out.
He pioneered this portion of thegenre of expression for
(36:48):
adoptees, along with Adoptees Onwhich is Haley Radke's you know
, I've listened to her stuff,binged on that, Patreoned that
as well.
And those are just the onesthat a lot of people are
(37:09):
familiar with.
But there are also so manyothers out there that I don't
even know exist because theniche in which they're talking
to hasn't come my direction.
So there are several podcastsand there's room for everybody.
There's room for every author.
There's room for every podcaster, every blogger.
There's so much room.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, so what are some of your favorite, your
favorite podcasts?
Let's get them out there.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I mean really, I honestly have to say, lisa Ann,
I'm so new to this Like, soliterally the books, you know,
the last couple months I've beentrying to promote the book and
that has been my introduction toall of this.
So as I've gotten connectionswith podcasts who might be
interested in talking with meabout the book, then I just
(37:53):
start binge listening to thepodcast.
So I've listened to a ton ofepisodes of yours pulled by the
root.
Oh yeah, love that.
Which was that I did aninterview with those guys
recently.
I love H.
It feels like a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I was on Simon and Ben's.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, and what about Melissa Brunetti's Mind?
Your Own, karma?
I had to really think about it,melissa, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Oh, I don't know about that one oh.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I'll connect the two of you.
Yeah, I'll connect the two ofyou.
That's a great one as well.
So I guess our point is there'sa lot of opportunity to
continue to grow and and yeah,let's just continue to lift
everybody up.
Well, as we're closing out fortoday, what would be an area of
advocation that you would liketo express that maybe hasn't
(38:59):
been expressed yet, and leaveour listeners with?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, I think you know just kind of what we've
been talking about.
I just think it's reallyimportant for people to share
their stories and I think we'rein this really exciting time
where it's much more accessibleto tell your story and share
your story.
And you know, kind of goingback to what we've we were
(39:23):
saying earlier, I think it'sreally important for adoptees
and people who are have beenimpacted by adoption in all
different ways, to to tell, totalk about it.
You know, like I said, I thinkthe worst thing that has
happened with our history ofadoption is the secrecy.
And so how do we remedy that?
(39:44):
Is we to stop keeping secretsand we start talking and talking
to each other.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Agreed.
So, as we close your books iswho is a worthy mother and
intimate history of adoption.
You're Rebecca Wellington.
I know you have a website and abunch of stuff coming out.
We'll drop that in the shownotes and I want to say thank
you for being with us today.
It's been an honor.
Thank you so much, lisa Ann.
(40:10):
That was so much fun.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopted journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtfreeadoptingcom.
The point that I think we're both making about
Hammurabi's Code and MarcusAurelius' and the Roman Empire's
.
There wasn't a level of shamearound it and this dissection
between the adoptee and thebirth community.
That I think is sort of almost,maybe uniquely American.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Anne.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, identity, lifesearch and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, rebecca Wellington.
Welcome to the show, rebecca.
Thank you so much, lisa Ann.
Well, it is an honor to haveyou here on the show.
(01:00):
I don't know how this hashappened, but somewhere along
the lines of my trajectory andjourney, I've become the book
lady for many authors, and youare one of them.
I'm going to fall in a littlebit.
I read your book.
There are only a few that havehugely moved me.
I like all of the books, butmajor movement in how I approach
(01:22):
things, and yours is one ofthem, and so the title of your
book is who is a Worthy Mother?
An Intimate History of Adoptionwhich is a fantastic title, and
before we get too much into whatit's about, I always like to
have the guests share a littlebit about their adoption story.
(01:44):
Would you mind doing that forus?
Speaker 1 (01:46):
No, not at all.
So I mean my adoption story isthe etymology of the book, so
they're intimately connected.
So I was adopted.
I was born first.
I was born in June 29th 1975 inLA County, california, born at
(02:09):
Northridge Hospital in LA County, and I was the time the law
stipulated that there had to bea wait of two days before my
adoptive parents could come pickme up.
And then they picked me up.
I guess that would have beenlike July 2nd.
Yeah, I traveled up toWashington state where I've
(02:31):
lived my life.
I've always known.
I was adopted, but I've alwayssort of sat in these two worlds.
One world that I was told,which I heard all the time from
everybody, was you're so lucky,right, you should be grateful.
You're so lucky you were savedfrom whatever.
(02:52):
What I was saved from I don'tknow because I know nothing.
And then the other world that Isat in, really quietly and
alone, was this reallyuncomfortable tension of not
knowing and being sort of cutoff from whatever my past was,
and I kind of describe it aslike missing a foot, you know,
missing a root, and I think Ispent a lot of my energy through
(03:16):
my life ignoring thatuncomfortable silence, part and
kind of literally limping aroundwithout the foot, without that
root.
Because you know my story is.
I wrote it for my sister, who Ilost in 2017 to a drug overdose
.
She was older than me, she wasalso adopted from a different
(03:39):
birth mother and she also gave achild up for adoption.
So I write about in the storythat you know she was the one
person in my life who, on areally visceral, deep level,
kind of got it what it was likethat discomfort that we lived
with, that we existed with that.
You know we didn't quite fit in, that things were uncomfortable
and there was a silence aroundthings that we couldn't talk
(04:00):
about.
Her response to that missingroot or that missing foot was to
just say I don't know if I canswear.
Her response was to say fuckyou to everything, like if I
can't assimilate into thisadoptive family and into this
culture and you can't accept whoI am and that I look different.
(04:22):
I mean, we're both white.
We were adopted by whiteparents, so there was a deep
level of privilege there becausewe could sort of pass, but she
couldn't pass as well as I could.
I looked enough like my cousins.
I looked enough like sort of myparents that I could pass and
get away with it.
She couldn't.
She had like bleach, blondehair, blue eyes stood out and
(04:44):
she couldn't assimilate in.
And so her response was just tosay fuck you, I'm, I'm doing it
my way, I'm going to burneverything down.
And I kind of watched growing up, watched her resistance to that
sort of that desire that I wasalways feeling like I have to be
the good girl.
I have to prove to my parentsthat they didn't make a mistake
(05:07):
adopting me.
Right.
My birth mom couldn't keep me.
I was a mistake for her.
I better not be a mistake forthem.
And my whole childhood waswatching my sister just amplify,
being the mistake like in yourface.
I am the mistake.
It really wasn't until she diedthat I, you know, got that so
(05:30):
much of her rage was just thepain we both felt around
adoption and that there was lackof an opportunity to talk about
it and recognize that it washard.
So you know, I lived with sortof this uncomfortable silence my
whole life until she died, andthen her death was the impetus
(05:51):
for writing the book that andalso a couple of years prior to
her death I had my own twochildren and to this day, my two
daughters are the only peopleI've ever met who I'm
biologically related to.
So those two moments of youknow, birth followed by death,
(06:13):
really catapulted me out of youknow, like adoptees will say,
out of the fog, that mist ofeverything's fine, everything's
great, just don't question ittoo much.
Speaker 2 (06:27):
What I find very endearing in your story is the
acknowledgement of you and yoursister at two opposite ends of
that spectrum the one child thathas all of the same feelings
you have and how you guys areboth navigating the world in
that Her attitude of fuck you,as you said, and your attitude
(06:49):
of I've got to do the best thatI can and be the best that I can
, and I can see that in thestory that you've told and
authored.
What I also find absolutelyintriguing about your approach,
though, this isn't just a storyabout you and your sister.
This is you taking anotherpassion of your life and deeply
(07:11):
diving into it, and that passionis history.
Can you kind of share a littlebit with our listening audience,
you know kind of youreducational background and what
pulls you to history, and thenhow you leverage that for this
book for you and for your sister?
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Yeah, so.
So my sister died in 2017, inAugust, august 19th 2017.
And two months prior, Igraduated with a doctorate in
education history from theUniversity of Washington.
So, leading up to her death, Ihad been spending all my time
(07:57):
literally in the archives doinghistorical work.
And, yeah, the roots of my loveof history, I think goes back
further than that.
I taught high school historyfor a number of years.
I just really I think history isso powerful in helping us
(08:18):
understand not where we camefrom, but where we want to go.
And I just want to read thisquote because I think it's from
the book.
I think it kind of summarizeswhy history is so meaningful to
me.
So this is from who is a WorthyMother?
In her memoir detailing hersearch for her birth mother,
katrina Maxton Graham describesadoption as a quote amputation
(08:42):
from history, unquote.
To heal the wound of thisamputation, the silence and lies
that defined us, I had to reachout to those historical roots
and threads and reattach them.
History, the true stories ofthe past, became my way of
speaking truth to power forRachel, my sister, now that she
(09:04):
had lost her voice in death.
History is constantly stickingits fingers into our present
everyday lives.
Whether or not we're aware ofit, history has incredible power
.
It can paint pictures of wherewe came from and how the world
and people in it looked, actedand believed.
This is weighty, because how weunderstand ourselves and the
(09:25):
world around us in this currentmoment is largely defined and
shaped by what happened in thepast.
This is the power of historicalnarratives and historical
memories.
When people's lives in the pastare silenced, this in turn
silences people's lives in thepresent.
But when these stories are told, it changes our understanding
(09:48):
of the present world.
And when people's stories areshared, especially the lives of
people who deliberately havebeen traumatized and silenced,
those awoken historicalnarratives directly affect the
lives of people in the presentand we start to view the world
and our place in it differently.
History is powerful.
(10:09):
So that's kind of, in anutshell, my love of the power
of history.
After my sister died, I knew Ihad to find out about my own
history as an adoptee, and Irealized pretty quickly how
difficult that would be, becauseI was adopted in California and
(10:30):
I'm still, you know, shackledby sealed records.
I cannot get access to myoriginal birth records.
So, like, literally, I couldn'tget to my own history, which,
like infuriated me and, like Isaid, I just finished this
doctorate in education historyand I, you know, had gotten a
certificate that said you knowhow to do historical research.
(10:53):
So I was like, okay, I can dothat.
So I just started readingeverything I could get my hands
on about the history of adoptionand adoption policy in America
to try to answer at least theinitial question, which was why
can't I get my birth records.
(11:13):
And one of the first books I gotmy hands on was by Wayne Karp.
He's kind of like the godfatherof history, history of adoption
in America.
He literally wrote the bookAdoption in America.
So I wrote, I read everythinghe wrote and I just was like, oh
my gosh, this is just soshocking and horrific.
(11:37):
Why don't we all know this?
Like we need to know thesestories.
And so I was like well, okay, Iguess I better start writing to
know these stories.
And so I was like well, okay, Iguess I better start writing,
putting them all together andwriting them.
And that was kind of the.
That was the path in to writingthis book.
Speaker 2 (11:53):
The reason I fawn over you in this context is
because I learned so much aboutthe history of adoption things
that I thought I knew, things Iclearly didn't know and many
like OMG, and I don't even knowsometimes if I have the right
acronym, expression,abbreviation, to really
(12:16):
encapsulate some of the thingsthat you have researched and
pulled together for the readerand for adoptees who want to dig
a little bit deeper into justbase understanding of how this
whole thing started,predominantly in America, how it
continually grew into what wenow know to be this
(12:37):
multi-billion dollar business.
And those are figures that wecan't get a hold of because no
one's going to publish.
I processed 10 adoptees at 10Kand I made a year.
That's not going to happen, butwe can draw some you know,
lines of spark lines, if that'swhat you want to call them, that
(12:57):
say we know in essence there'sabout X number of births and
adoptions in a year at a goingrate of, you know, let's say,
10k, 50k, whatever it is.
You can create the math problemyourself and go forward, but
just having a real coreunderstanding of things that
were happening not only to babyscoop era but indigenous eras
(13:22):
and all of the federal acts I'mgoing to call them, you know,
kind of like a declaration or anact, got it.
I was floored.
Speaker 1 (13:31):
Yeah, well, that's why I had to look at the policy,
because I in undergrad Istudied sociology and I really,
I'm really aware I understandthe impact that policy and laws
and institutions have on thehuman experience.
And, like if I were tounderstand what happened to me,
(13:51):
I had to understand those legalforces that set up systems that
made our situations happen.
And I do want to say you saidit, you know, started in America
.
I actually learned from mydaughter, who's in sixth grade,
who was studying Hammurabi'scode, which is sort of like
that's what you do Sixth gradeworld history, ancient Sumeria.
(14:15):
Adoption was in Hammurabi's code.
Right, not a new concept.
There have been systems ofadoption in different cultures
around the world for millennia.
But what just blew my mind isin Hammurabi's code.
In one of the codes aboutadoption, it explicitly states
(14:37):
that the adoptee has the rightto leave their adopted family
and go back to their birthfamily if they choose to.
Okay, so that was ancientSumeria.
And here in America over thelast 100 years, we have like
more draconian laws of adoptionand ancient Sumeria.
(15:00):
So in a way, it's almost likewe're going backwards with the
way we've approached adoption.
I was just floored.
Yeah, I just learned that acouple of weeks ago from my
sixth grader.
Speaker 2 (15:13):
All right, so now I'm going to double down.
I am reading a book and I'mgoing to double down in this way
.
We do spend a good amount ofour time talking about American
adoption and I do know thatthere are threads of
conversation that spawn off ofthe Georgia Tann story, which I
(15:34):
live in Tennessee and so I'mvery familiar with the Georgia
Tann story.
I've done that historicalresearch.
She was an awful woman.
Speaker 1 (15:43):
I don't know that story, I don't know.
Speaker 2 (15:46):
So Georgia Tann is.
Georgia Tann was a woman herein the South.
She lived in the Memphis area.
She basically stole childrenand gave them to other families
for adoption.
She made boatloads of money.
Speaker 1 (16:01):
Okay, I do know that story.
Yeah, I do know that story.
Speaker 2 (16:04):
Yeah, and Lisa Wingate wrote the book before we
.
What's the name of the bookBefore we Were Yours, I believe
is the name of the title.
Yes, okay, yeah, yeah, yeah.
So her fictionalization of thatstory is that book, lisa
Wingate, Before we Were Yours,which is loosely based off of
the Georgia Tann story which ishere in Tennessee, memphis, very
(16:26):
corrupt.
You layer on yet another depthof history goes a little further
back.
I am reading.
I am reading totally notrelated to adoption.
How to Think Like a RomanEmperor.
The book is by Donald JRobertson and it is about Stoics
.
It is about the philosophy ofthe Stoics and who are the key
(16:48):
Stoics?
And it's Seneca and MarcusAurelius.
Marcus's brother was adopted,marcus was adopted, and then
there's that whole conversationin the book about philosophers
and adoption.
Speaker 1 (17:06):
But they knew their beginnings.
Speaker 2 (17:08):
They knew their family.
They knew their lineage right,and so it had such a different
twist.
And my point here is to tagonto yours, which is we do have
this maybe blind spot or alittle bit of a tunnel vision on
how far back the concept ofadoption goes, but we can
(17:31):
clearly find it all the way backto Roman emperor times.
Speaker 1 (17:36):
Yeah, but the point that I think we're both making
about Hammurabi's code andMarcus Aurelius' in the Roman
empires there wasn't a level ofshame around it.
And this dissection between theadoptee and the birth community
that I think is sort of almost,maybe uniquely American, like
(18:01):
the way we have been crafting itand practicing it over the last
century, is just so in thisidea that we'll do it.
But it's shameful and we haveto hide it.
You know, that is what makes, Ithink, our nation's story about
it so disturbing is the andthat's kind of the claim of the
book is that it's the secrecyand the lies that are just just
(18:26):
drenched the whole history of it.
It's so problematic, right?
It's not that adoption happens,it's that there's just really
abusive, manipulative lying andcoercion and abuse all saturated
around it.
Speaker 2 (18:46):
Yeah, the practice is definitely bent.
All saturated around it.
Yeah, the practice isdefinitely bent.
Yeah, it's just hard to wrapour minds around the existence
of ourselves as humans who arewalking on earth that have this
other thing.
That also is our identity.
It's not going away.
I'm never not going to beadopted.
(19:06):
I'm never not going to beadopted.
I'm never not going to be onthis journey and so that just
that part of my identity isseated in exactly what you said
so much shame and hurt andsecrecy and exclusion.
It is very hard to navigatesome of the just general life
things, knowing that as well,some of the just general life
(19:31):
things, knowing that as well.
And we could find some reallygood historical practices around
the topic if we really lookedhard enough and we could hit
some reset buttons, I suspect,if we really wanted to.
But I will go back to hard todo when it's a very lucrative
business.
Speaker 1 (19:46):
Yes, yes, it's a market, it's all part of a
market economy and it's a verylucrative business.
Yes, yes, it's, it's a market,it's a, it's all part of a
market economy and it's it'sheavily influenced by supply and
demand, right, yeah?
Speaker 2 (19:57):
And you, you tackled that.
You tackled that very well inone of your chapters, I believe
it was.
You'll need to correct me Is itthe reclaiming chapter, or was
it the mother, the motherhoodchapter, where you pretty much
called out the Supreme Courtwithout calling out the Supreme
Court?
Speaker 1 (20:18):
Oh, but I do call out the Supreme Court.
Speaker 2 (20:21):
Well, you call out a particular right, you absolutely
call her out.
And I thought, oh, you did thatwas such grace, you're so much
better than I am.
That's out.
And I thought, oh, you did thatwas such grace, you're so much
better than I am.
That's exactly what I thought.
Speaker 1 (20:33):
I was like oh, she's so sweet, she did it so nice
yeah, yeah, I called out AmyConey Barrett, I called out
Samuel Alito, because theyreally they had their hands on
the lever of the Dobbs decisionand, I think, had the most
powerful commentaries in thatdecision.
(20:54):
And it was Alito, particularlyin his footnotes and his
comments in his decision, wherehe directly highlights the
needed supply to meet the demandof adoptable babies and how,
(21:14):
yeah, how, reversing Roe couldcreate a new supply chain of
adoptable babies which just,it's the way it's just he
describes it.
It's like, oh yeah, we're.
We're talking about a market.
It's the market economy.
The babies are the commodityand when you can see that people
will pay you know, I mentionedHolt International, which is one
(21:39):
of the major internationaladoption organizations,
industries that doestransnational adoption people
will pay upwards of like $60,000, $70,000 for a baby.
That's a lot of money.
That's a lot of money goinginto a lot of different hands.
Speaker 2 (22:02):
I would agree.
You wrote about both of thesehumans.
I'm trying to be reallyrespectful in your introduction
and I do know it was later on inthe book.
I'm trying to be reallyrespectful in your introduction
and I do know it was later on inthe book.
I just want to read to you whatyou wrote and this is the part
that I just was astounded, forthe whole project of adoption is
contingent on making valuejudgments about a pregnancy,
(22:22):
about who is a worthy mother andwho is a worthy baby.
I'm going to pause right there.
Right, because we lose worththrough this process.
I know we do.
I know I do.
I'll speak only for myself.
It's sometimes hard to remember.
We are worthy humans.
In legal arguments heard in theSupreme Court case of Dobbs v
(22:43):
Jackson Women's HealthOrganization, justice Amy Coney
Barrett suggested that adoptioncould render the issue of
abortion irrelevant.
Irrelevant, like how does thathappen?
You don't have to be on eitherside of it to say it's an
irrelevant act.
That has nothing to do with thewhole conversation of whether
(23:03):
it's right or wrong to say it'sirrelevant.
That just boggles my mind.
I could go on and then I'llstart jabbering, and I'm almost
jabbering as it is.
So there we go.
Justice Samuel Alito echoed thesame sentiment in his 2022
opinion overturning the 1973 Roeversus Wade decision, in which
(23:24):
he justified abolishing abortionrights by arguing that the
domestic supply of infantsrelinquished at birth or within
the first month of life andavailable to be adopted has
become virtually non-existent.
And I just want to say amen,gosh, it should have been.
Okay.
That's my soapbox moment.
So frustrating.
Speaker 1 (23:45):
So, frustrating frustrating, so frustrating.
Well, I think people can getaway with saying that and we can
hear him say that and hear hersay that and not find it
problematic because we don'tknow the history, when we know
the history and we know all thedifferent layers of abuse that
(24:06):
have happened for decades tohundreds of thousands of women,
millions of you know, if we wereto put it all together, the
numbers of women who haverelinquished babies by force, by
coercion, here in the UnitedStates, across the globe, and
whose babies have been funneledto the United States.
(24:28):
Right, I mean, I guess my hopewith the book is that it really,
really problematizes what thosetwo justices said in their
opinions, so that we listen tothose opinions differently.
You know they don't land aseasily for us differently.
Speaker 2 (24:54):
You know they don't land as easily for us.
Well, I would also add to thatto use the information that you
are providing in your book tobecome even more knowledgeable
and use it as a source for that,which is why I love it.
I learned again I think I saidit a couple times already.
I learned so much about historyof the practice that I didn't
know.
So let's transition a littlebit.
(25:15):
Has this been a healingadventure for you in terms of
the loss of your sister?
Speaker 1 (25:23):
Well, you should ask my therapist.
You should ask my therapist.
I mean, it's been really hard.
Writing the book was likecutting myself and then pouring
lemon juice on the cut and thenit would heal a little bit and
then I would cut on that sameincision again.
I mean, that's what the writingprocess felt like.
(25:45):
It was so painful, it was sopainful to read this history and
then to put it in.
You know, look at it throughthe lens of my childhood and
then her and think about how shesuffered, especially later in
her life.
But I also know from mytherapist with grief.
(26:08):
I mean, I started.
It was my therapist who told meBecky, you got to start writing
down your stories of yourchildhood and that was like how
I could grieve the loss of mysister, kind of how I started
writing this book.
So it really started in therapyand I think that where my
therapist was coming from wasthat to really deal with grief
(26:32):
you can't circumvent it, youcan't just fix it, like you
literally have to walk into itand walk through it, into the
shit, like you can't get on aboat and go over it or around it
.
And so I still feel like I'm init, but I'm in it deeper and
I'm further along than I wascertainly before I started
(26:55):
writing the book.
So like I'm like carrying thebook with me as I wade into this
ocean of shit, but I have thebook with me.
Speaker 2 (27:06):
I truly believe that, just as we speak of adoption as
a journey, grief is part ofthat in all facets, and there is
never an end or a start, really, depending on how you really
look at it, because you can bein any of the phases.
You could start at denialbefore you're at the other
(27:27):
phases, could start at denialbefore you're at you know the
other, the other phases, or youcould start at the deep-seated
loss stage and then get todenial and go back through
several times all.
Speaker 1 (27:37):
Of that's very practical and and and everybody
has to have their own journey.
Like there's no one path, likeyou have your path.
If you just gotta walk, walk it, and your path is different
from somebody else's path.
Speaker 2 (27:52):
Yeah, I would agree.
Well, you also mentioned thatyour two children, your
daughters, are the onlybiological family members you
have to date in your life andwe've noted.
Your adoption records areclosed and you've got this big
project going forward.
What are you kind of thinkingis going to be your path to the
(28:17):
next step of finding otherbiological family, or do you
have no desire to?
Speaker 1 (28:23):
Oh, I like, definitely have a desire.
I mean, I think that's part ofthe book is just acknowledging
yes, I need to, I would need toreconnect with these roots
somehow Right.
And so much of the book is justme learning how important that
is.
And that's where I really tapinto some of the really profound
(28:47):
Indigenous scholars who I'vehad the privilege of studying
with and working with, whoreally taught me a lot about,
from an Indigenous perspective,the importance of our ancestral
connections.
Like you can't just sever thattie, the fact that, like our
last century of adoption policywas based on this idea that you
(29:11):
can just literally hack, hackthe umbilical cord and hand the
kid to somebody else and justlike pretend it didn't happen.
Like that's so wrong, it's soincorrect.
And like we carry the blood ofour ancestors in our body, like
our memories are imprinted bytheir, their memories and their
(29:33):
experiences.
So, yeah, I think partly thejourney of writing the book and
meeting all these amazing peopleis the just coming to awareness
that I need to find someconnections, whether those
people are alive or not, youknow, just get some of those
answers.
So that is my next step afterthe book tour.
(29:57):
After you know, I take a littlebreak.
This summer I did connect withsome amazing people at Adoption
Network Cleveland.
Betsy Norris, who's the founderof that phenomenal organization
, actually put me in touch withone of the search angels.
(30:17):
I don't know if she goes bythat title, but that's like a
term if you're familiar withwhat a search angel is.
Speaker 2 (30:24):
Yep, it's a very common term.
Speaker 1 (30:26):
Yes, yeah, I mean like that's how unaware I was of
the adoption world, even thoughI'm an adoptee.
I just learned recently of thisterm search angel, and so I
spoke with one of them, whoworks with Adoption Network
Cleveland, and she was like, oh,I have helped people born in
your same year, born inCalifornia, and they've gotten
(30:47):
access to records.
So I'm like, so just speakingwith her, it's like, oh, this
door that I didn't even knowexisted just kind of popped open
and so, yes, I will walkthrough that door, maybe at this
summer or something.
Speaker 2 (31:03):
yeah, I mean, there's no timeline on and I can only
encourage you have to do it atyour own pace.
There's so much to that, thatportion of the journey, and I
have advocated no matter howmuch you think you're ready,
you're going to be faced withsomething.
(31:23):
I will give an example.
Just this past weekend, I had abiological family member post a
meme about adoption and wantingto have been given up for
adoption, or something alongthose lines.
It was so innocent, it was soinnocent.
And then there were comments,you know, from other biological
(31:48):
family members.
You know we wouldn't, wewouldn't give you up, and I was
just like I can't read this,I've just gotta, I've gotta
close that one out.
It was innocent, though, andthat's the really, that's the
really sad part of what I'msharing, because I don't hold an
animosity towards that personfor posting something that is
(32:09):
truly, you know in their mindskind of funny, and I'm looking
at it going well.
Hello over here Like.
Speaker 1 (32:16):
I'm connected on this social media site.
Speaker 2 (32:19):
And yeah it's.
I wasn't prepared for that, Iwasn't prepared for all this.
Time has passed since we'veconnected and I wasn't prepared
for a meme to be posted and forthe way I felt about it and I
almost felt I was slighted, andyou not.
You not understand all thethings I've been saying publicly
(32:40):
about this experience.
So you know we all have our ownjourney and you know it's a.
It's quite the adventure forsure.
Speaker 1 (32:49):
Yeah, but sort of in that, in that vein, I think
what's happening right now and Imean I think it's kind of
unique right now because that'swhat other people who, who have
been public advocates, adopteerights advocates for years, are
telling me that there's thisgroundswell of sort of a
movement of just phenomenalbooks that are coming out.
(33:12):
Right, I want to talk aboutGretchen Sisson's amazing book
Relinquished I get to do a booktalk with her in May in Berkeley
, I'm so grateful.
Sarah Easterly, adoptionUnfiltered I get to do a talk
with her soon.
And Susan Ito's memoir.
(33:32):
I mean there are just theseamazing books that are coming
out talking about the adoptedexperience and the birth mother
experience, and I think that'sgoing to shift things because
when those stories enter themainstream meta-narrative, then
people it kind of questionspeople when they want to make
(33:56):
those comments right.
There's more of an awarenessaround the experience because
it's publicly talked about andpeople will start to understand
it more, I think.
So it gives me a lot of hope.
I think things will reallyshift.
Speaker 2 (34:10):
I do too, and there are so many books coming out now
.
There have been so many goodbooks from my entrance into the
community over the last fiveplus years and really plus years
is more accurate that havestarted prompting and making
adoptees feel comfortable.
(34:31):
in writing in creative arts, inplay production, in music, in
blogging and in podcasting andother events.
So I agree with you thegroundswell is really cool to
watch.
It's also cool to be part of itand you know, those books that
you mentioned are the latest ina large number of really great
(34:55):
authors.
And what's really good right nowabout our community too,
rebecca, is that I'll talk toyou and we'll talk about the
books that are resonating withyou and I'll share books that
are resonating with me, andwe'll find that there might be
one or two in common.
And then we'll also find, oh mygosh, I haven't read that one,
(35:15):
or I didn't know that one wasavailable.
And that has happened in threeor four conversations recently
where I have been with otheradoptees and they're like have
you read so-and-so's book?
And I'll be like not even aclue that that one existed, but
did you read?
You know?
her book and they're like no, Ididn't even know that one
existed.
And it's such a, it's such awarming feeling, it really is.
Speaker 1 (35:38):
Yeah, and I think podcasts are amplifying those
conversations in such a cool way, like there are some just
awesome adoption podcasts outthere that I've been like binge,
including yours.
Just look at my drive to workevery day and I'm just like wow,
there are all these peoplehaving these amazing
conversations you know who knewWell, and I think that's really
(36:02):
important.
Speaker 2 (36:03):
It's part of the advocation, part of our
conversation.
My why has always been oneperson and I'm always thankful.
I really am appreciative forevery person that wants to bear
their soul and talk.
It's hard.
We end up reliving it sometimes.
At the same time, I want tolift up every podcaster that I
(36:24):
know of, and if someone says,did you hear about the making of
me?
And I can say I have, and I'm alistener and go check it out.
Or Damon Davis's, who am Ireally?
And I can go, yep, I know thatone too.
I was a guest twice on that.
Man, go check that out.
But man, go check that out.
He pioneered this portion of thegenre of expression for
(36:48):
adoptees, along with Adoptees Onwhich is Haley Radke's you know
, I've listened to her stuff,binged on that, Patreoned that
as well.
And those are just the onesthat a lot of people are
(37:09):
familiar with.
But there are also so manyothers out there that I don't
even know exist because theniche in which they're talking
to hasn't come my direction.
So there are several podcastsand there's room for everybody.
There's room for every author.
There's room for every podcaster, every blogger.
There's so much room.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2 (37:27):
Yeah, so what are some of your favorite, your
favorite podcasts?
Let's get them out there.
Speaker 1 (37:31):
I mean really, I honestly have to say, lisa Ann,
I'm so new to this Like, soliterally the books, you know,
the last couple months I've beentrying to promote the book and
that has been my introduction toall of this.
So as I've gotten connectionswith podcasts who might be
interested in talking with meabout the book, then I just
(37:53):
start binge listening to thepodcast.
So I've listened to a ton ofepisodes of yours pulled by the
root.
Oh yeah, love that.
Which was that I did aninterview with those guys
recently.
I love H.
It feels like a long time ago.
Speaker 2 (38:12):
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (38:25):
I was on Simon and Ben's.
Speaker 2 (38:27):
Yeah, and what about Melissa Brunetti's Mind?
Your Own, karma?
I had to really think about it,melissa, I'm sorry.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
Oh, I don't know about that one oh.
Speaker 2 (38:36):
I'll connect the two of you.
Yeah, I'll connect the two ofyou.
That's a great one as well.
So I guess our point is there'sa lot of opportunity to
continue to grow and and yeah,let's just continue to lift
everybody up.
Well, as we're closing out fortoday, what would be an area of
advocation that you would liketo express that maybe hasn't
(38:59):
been expressed yet, and leaveour listeners with?
Speaker 1 (39:03):
Well, I think you know just kind of what we've
been talking about.
I just think it's reallyimportant for people to share
their stories and I think we'rein this really exciting time
where it's much more accessibleto tell your story and share
your story.
And you know, kind of goingback to what we've we were
(39:23):
saying earlier, I think it'sreally important for adoptees
and people who are have beenimpacted by adoption in all
different ways, to to tell, totalk about it.
You know, like I said, I thinkthe worst thing that has
happened with our history ofadoption is the secrecy.
And so how do we remedy that?
(39:44):
Is we to stop keeping secretsand we start talking and talking
to each other.
Speaker 2 (39:49):
Agreed.
So, as we close your books iswho is a worthy mother and
intimate history of adoption.
You're Rebecca Wellington.
I know you have a website and abunch of stuff coming out.
We'll drop that in the shownotes and I want to say thank
you for being with us today.
It's been an honor.
Thank you so much, lisa Ann.
(40:10):
That was so much fun.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopted journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtfreeadoptingcom.
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