April 29, 2024 • 43 mins
When Lori Knisely offers a window into her soul, revealing the intertwined paths of being an adoptee and storyteller, we're reminded that life is rich with complex patterns. Our hearts travel with Lori to the remnants of St. Anthony's Home for Infants, feeling the gravity of each stone and the stories they carry as we follow her quest for information. Imagine holding a piece of your origin in your hands, a doorknob from a place that once held you but left no memory—such is the profound longing shared by many adoptees. Lori's pilgrimage through physical spaces and metaphorical gaps in life's timeline paints a vivid picture of the adoption narrative, echoing the universal human search for identity and belonging.
Lori’s advocacy story is a testimonial to the strength found in community, the transformative power of shared experiences and exemplifies resilience and compassion required to navigate the intricate relationship between adoption, identity, and faith. At the close of this beautiful conversation we are left with a sense of gratitude for the courage and openness that Lori, and those like her, bring to the table. Join us as we continue to unearth and share these powerful narratives, fostering a space for understanding and connection within the vast community of adoption.
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
#adoptee #adoptees #adopteevoices #adopteestories #adopteestrong #adoptionreality #adopteejourney #adoption #wanderingtreeadoptee
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Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:06):
And I wish I could just go up to her and say you
have nothing to be ashamed of,nothing to be afraid of.
I don't care if we becomefriends or not, but you do not
need to be filled with shame.
What you did, there's no shamein it.
That's where I struggle.
So my voice always is at churchis let's stop shaming those
women.
That's where I struggle.
So my voice always is thatchurch is let's stop shaming
those women.
(00:26):
Let's stop shaming.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, identity,life search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, lori Knisley.
Welcome to the show.
How are you today?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Oh, doing great.
Thank you, lisa Ann.
Thank you, I'm excited to sharemy story and to have a
conversation tonight.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to itas well.
(01:25):
Adoptee.
I was adopted at birth in aclosed domestic adoption.
I'm married.
I have two grown children andthree grandchildren.
I've been married for 39 years.
Ironically, I was also a teenmom myself At 16, found myself
(01:48):
pregnant, married the father,and that my oldest child is the
result of that.
So I was as an adoptee.
I also was faced with some ofthe same decisions that my birth
mom had to face and I made adifferent decision that my birth
mom had to face and I made adifferent decision.
(02:08):
But I was born here in KansasCity, missouri.
Raised here in Kansas City.
I have found both of mybiological sides of the family,
but I'm not really in reunionwith either one of my parents.
I started my search Again.
I was a closed adoption,adopted through Catholic
charities, and we know how thoseCatholics like to keep those
secrets.
Do they ever Gosh?
(02:30):
They're really good at that andI have always known that I was
adopted.
I was.
My parents did not keep thatfrom me, which is a good thing.
Oh, important fact, I wasraised in a family with two
biological children of myadoptive parents.
I have an older brother and ayounger sister.
They're nine years apart andI'm smack dab in the middle of
(02:52):
them.
They're four and a half yearsolder, four and a half years
younger.
So that always makes it veryinteresting to be raised with
siblings that are geneticallyrelated to your adoptive parents
, which also made it challengingbecause my differences were
pointed out more and were morevisible to even myself.
(03:15):
But I started my search for mybirth mother in the early 1990s.
New Missouri law allowed me torequest my non-identifying
information, which meant alllast names and first names were
redacted, were removed, but Istill had birth dates and ages
(03:36):
in there.
But when I received that, I canstill remember receiving that
information.
I can still remember receivingthat information.
It came in the mail and it'stwo and one fourth pages long
and it's essentially the intakeinterview that they had with my
birth mother.
So it gives information.
(03:56):
It gives identity informationsuch as you know, religion.
Let me see here.
It has description of thereligion, health, education,
employment and general history,health history of both my
maternal and paternal side.
Reading that I do remembersitting down at my kitchen table
and just crying and cryingreading this very generic
(04:22):
information describing what mybirth mother looked like, that
she was in nursing school,describing my birth father what
he looked like and he was in theCoast Guard.
But it is the first time in mylife and I was 23 years old yeah
, 23 years old at the time andit's the first time that I felt
(04:44):
like I could be a whole person,that I was coming into focus of
who I was, who I could be.
It gave a little bit of apersonality description of my
birth mother, because she hadgrew up with her dad being in
the Air Force, so she hadtraveled the world, so she was
more, she felt she was moresuperior to the other girls in
(05:07):
the home, and so she, she keptherself separate.
She did not make friends easily, which I read that and I was
like, oh my gosh, you know, Inot that I related to her, but I
felt like it was a piece of apuzzle that was being put into
my picture of my life, of who Iwas, and same with my birth
(05:28):
father, him being in the CoastGuard.
He was an only child.
Because both of my childrenwere strong swimmers, I thought,
well, you've got to be a strongswimmer to be in the Coast
Guard.
Is that where they got thatfrom?
I did have more informationabout my birth mother.
You know she is the oldest offour children.
Her dad was in the Air Force.
(05:48):
It gave the ages of her parents, the ages of her siblings.
Had very little information onmy birth father.
He was in the Coast Guard.
His parents divorced when hewas 12.
Knew nothing about his motherand his father was the CPA
approximate age which ended upbeing wrong.
So very little informationthere.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We're going to pause right there for a minute.
That's a lot to unpack in avery short time period, and so I
want to go back just a littlebit for the listeners, and one
of the things I picked up onthat we will also spend a little
bit of time, I think, talkingabout further into the
conversation.
You were a teen mother.
You were also an adoptee.
(06:30):
You did decide to keep yourdaughter I believe it's your
daughter and at the ripe age of20 something which, for myself,
I can't even think about thoseyears in that context.
Right, you are also gettinginformation about you and so, as
(06:50):
you're looking at this material, how is that connecting also
for you as a person who has nowhad children that are
biologically yours, and you'relooking at this information?
What are your memories aroundhow that was connecting for you
at the time?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
There was one key information in there that my
birth father and her had knowneach other for a while.
They were engaged to be married.
Then she found out he wasunstable, broke off the
engagement, then found out shewas pregnant.
She was sent to the home herein Kansas City, not by her
(07:30):
choice.
Her parents brought her here toKansas City and they said that
she was very against giving thechild for adoption.
But after being at the home fora while she changed her mind.
So what that did to me wasknowing, when I found out I was
pregnant, how scared I was, howunsure everything was.
(07:53):
But I had the support of my thefather of my child and his
family to help me make thischoice.
It gave me a connection withher to help me make this choice.
It gave me a connection withher.
She had to be scared that thewhole comment also about her
staying separate from the girlsthat you know because she was 21
.
She was 21 when she gotpregnant with me.
(08:16):
But it gave me hope that shewanted me, that she might be
looking for me, that she lovedme, and so it gave me confidence
that I made the right choice tokeep my daughter, that it
wasn't wrong of me to keep that,to make that choice.
So it gave me some confidenceto continue on.
(08:36):
And my kids at that time mydaughter would have been seven,
my son would have been three.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Definitely shapes your perspective a little bit
differently in the conversationof adoption and whether or not
to relinquish or to have support, and it's almost affirming
whether or not there should beadoption, which I'm not going to
get there yet.
Really, honing in on it isn'teasy.
(09:03):
And here you are many yearslater also talking about that
slice of life and such acritical decision.
And I just picked up off thetable of conversation here with
you that the tipping point ofthat decision was the support
you had.
Yes, yeah, very, and I wonderif we sometimes forget that part
(09:26):
of the conversation that it isso hard to make that type of a
decision and whether or not youhave a support system is
paramount to what you do.
Oh, yeah, it's pivotal to that.
Yeah, I agree, I also picked upon that.
She went to a home.
You know in the era that we'retalking about that wasn't
(09:49):
uncommon, and so you're in theKansas City Missouri area.
But was she actually in theKansas City Missouri area?
She was.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Not initially, she wasn't.
It even says at the beginningthat she was brought here from
and it doesn't say I have sincefound out she was actually in
California and she was broughthere to Kansas City specifically
because her dad was stationedat Whiteman Air Force Base here
(10:22):
in Missouri.
There were two major homes herein Missouri that are well known
the Willows and then StAnthony's Home for Infants or
Wayward Women, and so she wasbrought into.
St Anthony's Home is where shewas kept.
It was ran by CatholicCharities.
That home just recently wasdemolished.
(10:45):
I drove past that home twice aday for over 25 years when I
worked at a company downtown andthe way that I went into work I
passed the home and on the wayin and on the way home from work
major intersection I'd sitthere at the stoplight and I'd
look at that building and I waslike wonder what that building
(11:06):
used to be.
It looks like, you know, like ahome and it looks like you know
a hospital is next to it andstuff.
And one day, through a mutualfriend at work that was had a
lot of history, knew a lot ofthe history of Kansas City and
had a sister who gave a baby upfor adoption and we were talking
about my adoption and I said Iknew it was St Anthony's home.
(11:30):
They said, well, you know,that's homes on 27th of the sale
.
I'm like what?
That's what that building is.
It just shocked me and, like Isaid, it was just recently this
year demolished and severaladoptees were able to go into
the building.
I took pictures, walked throughit, got a doorknob.
(11:50):
It was weird and I was therewith several adoptees to walk in
and we just stood there tryingto figure out, because it went
from St Anthony's Home toWelcome Home, which is a
recovering home for addicts andalcoholics, and they built a new
facility next to it.
So we were standing theretrying to, you know, find out
(12:13):
where all the rooms were wherewas the nursery, where was the
chapel, where were the womenkept, where was the common room?
And we would stand there withour hands on the wall and we
were like you know well, if youcould speak to us, what would
you say, you know, but the doorsand the door handles were
doorknobs, were original.
(12:34):
So I got a partial doorknob.
Somebody else got a wholedoorknob.
People took pictures, framedpictures off the wall and stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I would have classified that as surreal.
I don't know how I would havehandled that type of opportunity
.
I don't even know if I wouldhave taken that type of an
opportunity as we're talking.
Yeah, got to tell you, lori, Idon't think I would have done it
.
I don't know if I could havedone it and I don't know right
now if I would have done it.
So, kudos to you for takingthat step and, you know, making
(13:06):
some type of a physicalconnection between who you are
and your birth and a building.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, yes, it's and it's.
I drove by not too long ago andthey were taking bricks down
and stuff.
It's taken them a long time todemolish and when it is fully
demolished, I feel like thatpart of my chapter of my life is
then like done is gone, andwhen us adoptees have very
little of our history to lookback on, I think driving by
there with that building gone isgoing to affect me more than
(13:42):
driving by when it was standingthere.
It was a reminder, but it waspart of my, it was a tangible
part of my past, and now it'sgone.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That part I can relate to in the context of you
could see physically where youwere born, and I do think there
are adoptees, myself included,who would have liked a little
bit of that opportunity.
I've mentioned it before inseveral episodes.
I really thought I was going todo more research around this
(14:13):
and I just have not.
I've not had the motivation yet, but I do call it life gap and
there's that period of time fromwhatever the birth certificate
says was my birth date and birthtime and weight, what I believe
to be actually adopted.
And then, of course, lack ofpictures is a clear indicator
that I didn't live with thepeople that adopted me right out
(14:34):
of the gate.
I believe I've expressed before, but I want to repeat it, it's
about a six-month period,clearly of six to maybe even a
little bit more.
The first picture I have ofmyself with my adopted parents
I'm kind of looking like a big,chunky baby, so, and I was able
(14:56):
to stand pretty freely.
So if you know child, yeah, ifyou know child development, I
might've been a little bit oldereven so yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, that would have been closer to yeah,
between six and nine months, yep, oh, my, yeah.
Now I was fortunate enough thatI was in my adoptive home 14
days after my birth.
Sadly, I was born three daysbefore Christmas, so it wasn't
until after the new year.
And as I'm looking back throughpictures, I had to clear out my
(15:28):
parents' home and you find allthese pictures.
I realize, my first Christmas.
I don't know where I spent myfirst Christmas, and there is a
picture of my parents and myolder brother on December 25th
1967.
And I'm not in that picture,you know, because I'm not with
(15:50):
them yet.
I was just like, wow, well, whowas I with?
I didn't get any gifts, or didI get gifts?
So you know, that is still abig piece of the puzzle that is
missing.
Still a big piece of the puzzlethat is missing.
You know, as you, as weadoptees, draw in these pieces
of the puzzle, sometimes youthink you only have one piece
(16:10):
missing, but that one piece ismultiple pieces of different
sizes.
You get a little piece of it.
Oh, wow, okay, wait, no, that's.
There's more to that, I thought, finding my birth mother.
Oh, I have answers.
No, where's my first Christmas.
Where's my first Christmaspicture?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I I may never know yeah, I've always expressed that
too, lori, and it's a littleunsettling and it's very
difficult, even in my familytoday and with my husband, for
that conversation to be heldwhere I am expressing you know,
it's just odd, it just feels oddall the time.
(16:49):
I do think about it more than Imaybe should.
That's the bottom line, right,and it's hard to explain to him
repetitively, which I probablyshould just give that up, that
it just makes me, even at thisage, feel a little bit off.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yes, and it is hard to express to people that I call
birthright privileged.
I even say that to my own kids.
I said you guys are birthrightprivileged because you know
everything from your birth.
I can tell you.
You know, kirsten, when I wascarrying you sick all nine
months, and Derek, when Icarried you, you separated my
(17:26):
left hip.
I could barely walk.
I can talk about when I wentinto labor, what it was like,
and the first thing that I saidabout them when I saw them.
You know, my daughter has thisbig bottom lip she inherited
from her father and that's thefirst thing we noticed.
Son come out looking like afighter, he just looked mean
from the beginning.
And us adoptees, we are missingthat part of our birth story,
(17:50):
of our beginning that helps uswhen people know that.
That helps them in theiridentity development, in their
development to be a human humanbecause you have a story there.
Yeah, you know, I was this wayfrom birth.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, you had some findings speaking of stories,
and you learned something aboutyour maternal side that once you
learned it, you're like oh,that makes total sense, I can
connect with that.
Tell us a little bit about that, if you would not mind.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Ironically, I found out who my birth father was
before I found my birth motherand did that through DNA,
23andme and Ancestry kind of acombination of the two but it
was through a second cousin andwe're a true second cousin.
Our grandparents are siblingsand she reached out to me
(18:43):
because she did DNA and she'smore related through my grandma
and I looked at her family tree,thought, oh, this is on my
birth mother's side and I gaveher all the information on my
birth mother's side and she cameback.
She goes no, no, no, that's youknow.
I thought her grandma's youngersister was my grandmother or my
(19:06):
maternal grandmother, but itwasn't.
She goes we, you know, it's gotto be something else.
So I gave her all my birthfather's information, which was
very little.
She came back a couple dayslater and says I know who your
birth father is and his motherwas her grandma's sister, older
sister.
What is so great about that isthat her grandma Gertrude and
(19:28):
then her great aunt Lillian,which is the younger sister,
were professional storytellersin Philadelphia, which I found
just exciting.
Number one, the second cousin,said that she grew up grandma
telling stories so she thenstarted having coffees.
(19:50):
When she became an adult wouldgo down and have coffee with her
grandma and she recorded allthese stories of the family and
then she recorded them,transcribed them, put them in a
book, a self-published book.
That fact that her grandma andgreat aunt were professional
storytellers really resonatedwith me.
I have been saying since I wasin middle school that everyone,
(20:13):
your life, is nothing but acollection of stories, and it's
how you tell that story andwhether or not it is interesting
.
There are people who are goodat telling stories and there are
people who are good at tellingstories and there are people who
are horrible at telling stories.
I have always loved tellingstories.
I do not have a fear ofspeaking in public and I feel
(20:33):
like every experience I have Ican turn it into a story and
then I want to tell it.
I love giving speeches, and sowhen I heard that that was
another piece that connected me,that made me, helped me with my
identity.
I'm a storyteller.
I'm not just like to talk, I'ma storyteller.
(20:54):
I come from a family ofstorytellers.
You know I'm starting to fill ahole again.
That little hole is filling upwith puzzle pieces.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, well, and that's very cool to have that
information and to say I feellike I represent that you know
so very, very, very nice for you.
Well, we've mentioned a littlebit about identity through this
conversation and I have spent acalendar year researching,
(21:22):
studying, trying to navigatethrough that topic.
It's not an easy one tonavigate.
There are many pieces.
I'll use your puzzle analogy tohow we think about ourselves.
There is personality.
There is a component of how wefeel about ourselves.
(21:44):
There's a component about howwe feel people perceive us.
Really broad brushing, there isalso the component of the
labels that we use for ourselvesand others use on us as well.
So, we started out, obviously,with this conversation, and why
you're here is you're an adoptee, so that is a component of your
(22:04):
identity.
Yeah, yeah, we've talked aboutyou are married, so that wife
label is a part of your identityas well.
Yeah, we spoke about siblings,and you are a sibling and a
daughter to multiple families.
You are a sibling and adaughter to multiple families.
(22:24):
You are also a former teenmother.
That's, I think, a good way tokind of try to couch that a
little bit, desensitize it in myway.
Yes, how many more labels doyou think you, lori, are going
to feel comfortable with?
Is there a limit?
Do you care, or do you justcollect these pieces because
(22:45):
they are part of the puzzle?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Excellent question because I did a Sunday school
lesson with my teen high schoolSunday school class about
identity and personality and Iput together this little graph.
I wanted them to understandwhat are their identities.
Identity encompasses everythingthat helps us fit into society,
(23:10):
into our family.
It helps us understand ourpurpose, what we believe and
stand for, and tonight I wasjust looking at it and I have 27
different identities.
Actually, I started out with 25and looked at it.
Oh, I need to add this and Ineed to add that, and I do
believe our identity got mydegree in psychology and you
(23:33):
know we discuss identity,personality and such Identity
can continue to change and growas we mature, because we do take
on more identities as we getmarried, as we have children.
I'm a grandmother, which isprobably the best label that I
love being a grandma.
I worked for a company andHallmark cards for years and you
(23:57):
were a Hallmarker.
That was part of your identitya Hallmarker.
Well, I no longer work forhallmark.
That's a former title, being ateen mom.
It's funny.
I don't put a teen mom as aformer, I'm like I am a teen mom
, I embrace it.
This is what I look like.
Identities can stick with us andthey can change and grow as we
(24:22):
do.
My son was a Marine for eightyears and if you have anyone in
the military, you're, you know,used to be a sailor, used to be
a soldier, but a Marine isalways a Marine.
Once a Marine, always Marine.
Yeah, you know that's.
And so I am always a Marine mom.
That's another identity and Ihave a little analogy here.
(24:45):
I hope I can explain it wellenough.
It has to do with the butterfly.
We are all born a caterpillar,adopting, non-adopting.
We're all a caterpillar, theirgenetics.
They transform into a butterflysooner and easier than us
(25:07):
adoptees or those of us who wereraised in a genetically
influenced environment that didnot match our genetics.
So when they transform as theymature and they become the
people that they were created tobe, they become that butterfly.
It is celebrated.
It is not hidden, it is expected, they're not scared.
(25:29):
But us adoptees we don't knowhow to transform like that
because we have no geneticmirroring and it's a little
scary, so we're a little bitslower to let our wings come out
and become butterflies.
Our identity labels areinfluenced by our environment
and when the genetic environmentmatches us it feels more
(25:51):
comfortable and we're allowed todo that.
Adoptees, we don't feelcomfortable, so becoming a
butterfly is kind of scary to us.
History in finding ourbiological parents such as me,
finding that my father'sgrandmother's side or his mom's
(26:12):
side are professionalstorytellers, my wings popped
out and I become the beautifulbutterfly that I've always been,
was made to be.
When we find our birth families, adoptees are a lot of times
told you've changed, you're adifferent person, and it's
because we've been hiding.
The people who've known us foryears are kind of like you're a
(26:47):
different person.
No, I'm the same person.
I'm just finally being able toexpress who I was meant to be.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, that's a great.
That's a great depiction and avery well painted picture of how
we move through that entireconversation of identity.
I like that.
Move through that entireconversation of identity.
I like that, and I also likedjust the acknowledgement of 27
different labels.
(27:14):
I'm using the term labelbecause I definitely don't want
to, you know, superimpose mythoughts of what that means, but
wow, and I wonder if we tooktime and we're reflecting.
That's one angle.
I do talk about self-assessment, and, in my own rights, I do
(27:35):
reflect.
I am a huge reflector, alwayslooking at what I did or could
have done differently, becauseI'm also an overthinker, and I
know that, and that's anidentity as well.
Overthinker is part of myidentity, and people pleaser and
all of those along with that.
Where I'm going with that,though, is it's nice to hear you
(27:56):
affirm for me in ourconversation.
It is a very large bucket thatcan continue to change, and
there might be some that havethe past tense and the present
tense, and that implies futuretense.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Very much so.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Well, one of the topics that you and I agreed we
wanted to touch on isspirituality and your faith, and
we purposely decided to go here.
Yes, because there is a lotaround that topic aside from
adoption Then you put inadoption and because we are
(28:37):
technically from the same basicera generation there is a
boatload around that termreligion and faith and adoptees.
You have said you know, momentsago, Catholic Charities.
What I find very interesting ingetting to know you, Lori, is
(28:57):
that you do have a very strongfaith and you know Catholic
Charities had something to dowith you and you know Catholic
Charities had something to dowith you.
And so how have you, as you andall those identities we just
talked about, how are you kindof utilizing your faith and your
(29:18):
belief system to ground you andwhy do you find that's
important?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Mm, hmm, oh, it is.
That's important.
Oh, it is.
Yes, one of my identities isChristian and identity is talked
a lot in the Christian faithand because of Catholic
charities and my adoption andthis shame that so many
religions adoption is a paradox.
(29:43):
We all know that Religionshames the birth mother for
having sexual relationships outof marriage.
Therefore, you are not smartenough, rich enough, old enough
to be a mom, not clean enough tobe a mom.
Therefore, you cannot keep thischild.
Cannot keep this child, but atthe same time, adopting that
(30:11):
child is nothing but Godordained and perfect and 100%
and holy and happiness.
It's such a paradox right there, because you've got to convince
one mother, one woman, that shecannot be a mother in order for
another one, for someone else,to be a mother, and that is so
hard.
I've sat through so many sermonsbecause the narrative in
(30:33):
Christianity is that an earthlyadoption is the same as a
spiritual adoption, because weare all adopted into God's
family.
It's in Romans and EphesiansGod is our father.
When we give our life over toChrist, we are adopted into his
(30:54):
family, and so they're likeearthly adoption is the same way
, but it's not.
It's different, and the keydifferences between spiritual
adoption and earthly adoption isthat spiritual adoption is a
choice.
Earthly adoption is not achoice.
It is not a choice at all forthe adoptee and for most birth
(31:17):
mothers that is not their choiceeither, even though they were
convinced it was their choice,it wasn't.
Spiritual adoption is aboutsaving us from our past life,
but earthly adoption what is itsaving us from Now?
In some cases, yes, you aresaving a child from a horrific
(31:37):
family life, but still it's notsaving us from anything.
Spiritual adoption detaches ourpast life, our sinful life,
from our new life, and our newlife is a blessing.
However and this is the key ourpast life is never wiped from
our memory.
We do not lose our past life,it's just detached from us.
(32:02):
But in earthly adoption, ourpast life, our history, our
heritage is wiped clean, it issealed, it is treated with shame
.
It's not just detached from us,it is thrown away.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I love the way that you have explained that and,
honestly, for a bit, when wewere prepping and we agreed to
talk about this post, thatpreparatory discussion, I had
some second thoughts.
I really did and I'm going tobe really direct with my
listeners.
I had second thoughts because Iknow it's such a touchy subject
(32:39):
.
But what I really liked aboutit in retrospect and I came to
I'm still going to do it we saidwe wanted to talk about it,
we're going to do it.
Here's what I myself came to inretrospect and I came to I'm
still going to do it.
We said we wanted to talk aboutit, we're going to do it.
Here's what I myself came to inretrospect.
In that entire dialogue, younot one time actually set aside
the pain as if it was acceptabledue to a religion, a belief
(33:03):
system, a faith or a connectionof spirituality.
You didn't do that and I reallywould just wish for others in
general that they could have anopportunity to hear adoptees who
are in your space of thatthought process and go oh,
(33:25):
non-adoptees and adoptees alike,just go oh.
I mean it's just such a reallywell said point of view.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You're welcome.
You're welcome and you knowwith them, with the Christian
faith.
Anytime I would talk aboutbeing.
You know like I struggle withidentity, because I have no
generic mirroring when thecomment is said to me, but your
identity is in Christ, where Ialways say, even though I
(33:57):
struggle with identity, becauseno matter how good or how bad a
daughter, a wife, a coworker, afriend, a cousin, you know I can
list all of those identitiesthat I am, whether I'm
successful or a failure at those, my self-worth and my value is
based on.
(34:17):
I'm a child of God and becauseI'm a child of God I will always
have self-worth and value.
But it still doesn't alwaysanswer the identity question.
Being able to know that I comefrom a family of possible strong
swimmers and storytellers, Ithen have even more confidence
(34:38):
and I feel more like who Godmeant for me to be.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I'm going to touch on that a little bit because I get
where you're coming from.
I think I shared this with youwhen we were prepping.
There are so many times in mylife where I have said, god,
seriously, like, what lessonhave I not learned?
If I believe my destiny ispaved for me, it's all part of a
(35:07):
plan I got to tell you as asinful human walking the earth,
I have.
I've got questions and I don'tlie about it.
Right, I don't really jokeabout it, but sometimes it
sounds like I'm joking, but Iintend to stand there and go.
I didn't get something.
And really, seriously, what wasI there for?
(35:27):
Because I'd like to see the.
Can we play the tape back alittle bit?
That day, yeah, that sucked,let's go, keep going.
I know I'm not supposed toquestion you.
I didn't walk the earth for Xnumber of decades.
I still have questions.
Remember that day?
It was beyond sucky.
Oh, let's go back to that veryfirst day.
It sucked so bad I didn't evenknow how bad it sucked, you know
(35:49):
?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Oh oh, I believe.
Oh no, I I'm with you, rightthere At least, and because I'm
even now, I question, even todaywhat is the purpose?
Why are you sending me?
What am I supposed to learn andwhy am I being so hardheaded
about it?
I mean, I can, I can look back,because I've spent so much time
(36:10):
, just like you, beingreflective on my adoption story
that there's other things in mylife.
When, when Hallmark cut meafter 26 years, that was
devastating and I was like whythis was supposed to be my time.
You know, I graduated college.
10 weeks after I graduatedcollege, lost my job, finally
(36:34):
going to have the money and havethe time.
And now I'm like, what was thepurpose?
I have a lot of questions too.
Yeah, Because I do still havethe question of and this is
where even the Christian faith Ibattle with Because my mother
I've reached.
I found her through getting mybirth certificate reached out to
(36:57):
her, and she has made it veryclear through another family
member that she does not wantany communication with me.
Why is that member that shedoes not want any communication
with me?
Why is that?
Why she carries though so muchshame and embarrassment that
(37:18):
even 50, some odd years latershe can't face it.
She's buried it so deep and Iwish I could just go up to her
and say you have nothing to beashamed of, nothing to be afraid
of.
I don't care if we becomefriends or not, but you do not
need to be filled with shame.
What you did, there's no shamein.
That's where I struggle.
So my voice always is thatchurch is let's stop shaming
(37:41):
those women.
Let's stop shaming them.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, and I think that fits into your advocacy as
well and just speaking out andtelling your story.
Thank you for sharing a littlebit about that.
I do again want to acknowledgethat type of a topic is hard in
the adoptee community to reallyexplore and I am thankful we
were willing to jump in.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, thank you for giving me that opportunity.
Thank you, willing to jump in.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yes, thank you for giving me that opportunity.
Thank you, yeah, no problemAnytime.
Let's take a turn here a littlebit.
Talk about advocacy, talk aboutthe adoptee community and your
connection in that, and I justwant to acknowledge you and I
met at a conference last year.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
It was my second conference and how I got
involved in the advocacy.
Part of it was the Missouri lawthat opened up original birth
certificates to adoptees.
I joined Facebook and otherthings to help find my birth
mother and found out about thisgroup, and most of those people
(38:43):
were part of what they calledthe Adoption Army, which went
down to Jefferson City toadvocate to open the birth
certificates original birthcertificate support group.
It is a peer-led support group.
I'm just there to facilitate,to have a place for people to
meet.
I share information that Ireceive.
(39:03):
I was scheduled to go to theNAAP it was actually known as
Indiana Adoption Network at thattime in 2020, in March 2020, to
go to their conference.
And then COVID hit and theywent online with happy hour,
which to me, was like the bestthing that ever happened,
(39:24):
because through these weeklyFriday night happy hours, I
learned that I was not the onlyadoptee that felt the way that I
did Heard so many stories ofadoptees, of NPEs, birth mothers
, adoptive mothers, birthfathers, adoptive fathers,
(39:48):
mothers, adoptive mothers, birthfathers, adoptive fathers, and
so their conference, you know,kept getting postponed until
2021.
So that was the first conferenceI went to met so many people
and then they joined with rightto know, had untangling your
roots and and I was I was likethis is what I want to do.
I want to get up and I want toshare my story, talk to people
and encourage people, like somany have me, and went to this
(40:10):
conference, which was awesome.
I think the combination of thetwo groups was just wonderful.
Met you, met a lot of people.
My support group, my supportnetwork, is just expanding and
so through that, I'm able to getmore information that helps my
support group.
Here I share my story.
(40:32):
I was on another podcast backin 2019, I believe it's called
Cut Off Jeans.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Oh, yes, yes, I don't talk about that one as often,
but I do listen to that one andI have no problem with people
talking about other podcasts.
On this podcast, I 100% supportevery person out there who's
willing to do something likethis and talk, and there are
more adoptees than even thecurrent volume of podcasters can
cover.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
See, hers is part storytelling and information on
how to search and it helped meduring my search.
Some things to do, some things.
My initial story is threeepisodes and then I have an
update about a year later andeverything and how would you
like to?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
close out our conversation today, what's
really important for you to getacross to our community of
adoptees and non-adoptees, as wesay thank you and goodbye yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
You know, telling our stories as we know as adoptees
and really in any communitygroup, telling your story is
very, very important.
That's one step, but we allknow that communication is a
two-way street and veryimportant, and right now I have
a quote up in my office thatsays the problem with
communication is that we listento respond instead of listening
(42:06):
to understand.
So I would ask anyone who islistening to anyone's stories
adoptees, birth mothers,adoptive parents that you listen
, not to respond, but listen tolearn and understand.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Very well said.
Well, I want to thank you againfor spending time with us.
It has been a pleasure to getto know you through multiple
engagements.
Now, you are always welcome toreturn here.
Thank you again, just for beingpart of our community.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Well, I cannot thank you enough for doing what you do
and for inviting me.
Thank you so much, and it hasbeen a complete pleasure.
I've had so much fun talkingwith you.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Likewise, Likewise, thank you for listening to
today's episode of WanderingTree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopted journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out at.
And I wish I could just go up to her and say you
have nothing to be ashamed of,nothing to be afraid of.
I don't care if we becomefriends or not, but you do not
need to be filled with shame.
What you did, there's no shamein it.
That's where I struggle.
So my voice always is at churchis let's stop shaming those
women.
That's where I struggle.
So my voice always is thatchurch is let's stop shaming
those women.
(00:26):
Let's stop shaming.
Speaker 2 (00:38):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experienced basedshow focused on sharing the
journey of adoption, identity,life search and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, lori Knisley.
Welcome to the show.
How are you today?
Speaker 1 (00:59):
Oh, doing great.
Thank you, lisa Ann.
Thank you, I'm excited to sharemy story and to have a
conversation tonight.
Yeah, I'm looking forward to itas well.
(01:25):
Adoptee.
I was adopted at birth in aclosed domestic adoption.
I'm married.
I have two grown children andthree grandchildren.
I've been married for 39 years.
Ironically, I was also a teenmom myself At 16, found myself
(01:48):
pregnant, married the father,and that my oldest child is the
result of that.
So I was as an adoptee.
I also was faced with some ofthe same decisions that my birth
mom had to face and I made adifferent decision that my birth
mom had to face and I made adifferent decision.
(02:08):
But I was born here in KansasCity, missouri.
Raised here in Kansas City.
I have found both of mybiological sides of the family,
but I'm not really in reunionwith either one of my parents.
I started my search Again.
I was a closed adoption,adopted through Catholic
charities, and we know how thoseCatholics like to keep those
secrets.
Do they ever Gosh?
(02:30):
They're really good at that andI have always known that I was
adopted.
I was.
My parents did not keep thatfrom me, which is a good thing.
Oh, important fact, I wasraised in a family with two
biological children of myadoptive parents.
I have an older brother and ayounger sister.
They're nine years apart andI'm smack dab in the middle of
(02:52):
them.
They're four and a half yearsolder, four and a half years
younger.
So that always makes it veryinteresting to be raised with
siblings that are geneticallyrelated to your adoptive parents
, which also made it challengingbecause my differences were
pointed out more and were morevisible to even myself.
(03:15):
But I started my search for mybirth mother in the early 1990s.
New Missouri law allowed me torequest my non-identifying
information, which meant alllast names and first names were
redacted, were removed, but Istill had birth dates and ages
(03:36):
in there.
But when I received that, I canstill remember receiving that
information.
I can still remember receivingthat information.
It came in the mail and it'stwo and one fourth pages long
and it's essentially the intakeinterview that they had with my
birth mother.
So it gives information.
(03:56):
It gives identity informationsuch as you know, religion.
Let me see here.
It has description of thereligion, health, education,
employment and general history,health history of both my
maternal and paternal side.
Reading that I do remembersitting down at my kitchen table
and just crying and cryingreading this very generic
(04:22):
information describing what mybirth mother looked like, that
she was in nursing school,describing my birth father what
he looked like and he was in theCoast Guard.
But it is the first time in mylife and I was 23 years old yeah
, 23 years old at the time andit's the first time that I felt
(04:44):
like I could be a whole person,that I was coming into focus of
who I was, who I could be.
It gave a little bit of apersonality description of my
birth mother, because she hadgrew up with her dad being in
the Air Force, so she hadtraveled the world, so she was
more, she felt she was moresuperior to the other girls in
(05:07):
the home, and so she, she keptherself separate.
She did not make friends easily, which I read that and I was
like, oh my gosh, you know, Inot that I related to her, but I
felt like it was a piece of apuzzle that was being put into
my picture of my life, of who Iwas, and same with my birth
(05:28):
father, him being in the CoastGuard.
He was an only child.
Because both of my childrenwere strong swimmers, I thought,
well, you've got to be a strongswimmer to be in the Coast
Guard.
Is that where they got thatfrom?
I did have more informationabout my birth mother.
You know she is the oldest offour children.
Her dad was in the Air Force.
(05:48):
It gave the ages of her parents, the ages of her siblings.
Had very little information onmy birth father.
He was in the Coast Guard.
His parents divorced when hewas 12.
Knew nothing about his motherand his father was the CPA
approximate age which ended upbeing wrong.
So very little informationthere.
Speaker 2 (06:08):
We're going to pause right there for a minute.
That's a lot to unpack in avery short time period, and so I
want to go back just a littlebit for the listeners, and one
of the things I picked up onthat we will also spend a little
bit of time, I think, talkingabout further into the
conversation.
You were a teen mother.
You were also an adoptee.
(06:30):
You did decide to keep yourdaughter I believe it's your
daughter and at the ripe age of20 something which, for myself,
I can't even think about thoseyears in that context.
Right, you are also gettinginformation about you and so, as
(06:50):
you're looking at this material, how is that connecting also
for you as a person who has nowhad children that are
biologically yours, and you'relooking at this information?
What are your memories aroundhow that was connecting for you
at the time?
Speaker 1 (07:10):
There was one key information in there that my
birth father and her had knowneach other for a while.
They were engaged to be married.
Then she found out he wasunstable, broke off the
engagement, then found out shewas pregnant.
She was sent to the home herein Kansas City, not by her
(07:30):
choice.
Her parents brought her here toKansas City and they said that
she was very against giving thechild for adoption.
But after being at the home fora while she changed her mind.
So what that did to me wasknowing, when I found out I was
pregnant, how scared I was, howunsure everything was.
(07:53):
But I had the support of my thefather of my child and his
family to help me make thischoice.
It gave me a connection withher to help me make this choice.
It gave me a connection withher.
She had to be scared that thewhole comment also about her
staying separate from the girlsthat you know because she was 21
.
She was 21 when she gotpregnant with me.
(08:16):
But it gave me hope that shewanted me, that she might be
looking for me, that she lovedme, and so it gave me confidence
that I made the right choice tokeep my daughter, that it
wasn't wrong of me to keep that,to make that choice.
So it gave me some confidenceto continue on.
(08:36):
And my kids at that time mydaughter would have been seven,
my son would have been three.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
Definitely shapes your perspective a little bit
differently in the conversationof adoption and whether or not
to relinquish or to have support, and it's almost affirming
whether or not there should beadoption, which I'm not going to
get there yet.
Really, honing in on it isn'teasy.
(09:03):
And here you are many yearslater also talking about that
slice of life and such acritical decision.
And I just picked up off thetable of conversation here with
you that the tipping point ofthat decision was the support
you had.
Yes, yeah, very, and I wonderif we sometimes forget that part
(09:26):
of the conversation that it isso hard to make that type of a
decision and whether or not youhave a support system is
paramount to what you do.
Oh, yeah, it's pivotal to that.
Yeah, I agree, I also picked upon that.
She went to a home.
You know in the era that we'retalking about that wasn't
(09:49):
uncommon, and so you're in theKansas City Missouri area.
But was she actually in theKansas City Missouri area?
She was.
Speaker 1 (10:01):
Not initially, she wasn't.
It even says at the beginningthat she was brought here from
and it doesn't say I have sincefound out she was actually in
California and she was broughthere to Kansas City specifically
because her dad was stationedat Whiteman Air Force Base here
(10:22):
in Missouri.
There were two major homes herein Missouri that are well known
the Willows and then StAnthony's Home for Infants or
Wayward Women, and so she wasbrought into.
St Anthony's Home is where shewas kept.
It was ran by CatholicCharities.
That home just recently wasdemolished.
(10:45):
I drove past that home twice aday for over 25 years when I
worked at a company downtown andthe way that I went into work I
passed the home and on the wayin and on the way home from work
major intersection I'd sitthere at the stoplight and I'd
look at that building and I waslike wonder what that building
(11:06):
used to be.
It looks like, you know, like ahome and it looks like you know
a hospital is next to it andstuff.
And one day, through a mutualfriend at work that was had a
lot of history, knew a lot ofthe history of Kansas City and
had a sister who gave a baby upfor adoption and we were talking
about my adoption and I said Iknew it was St Anthony's home.
(11:30):
They said, well, you know,that's homes on 27th of the sale
.
I'm like what?
That's what that building is.
It just shocked me and, like Isaid, it was just recently this
year demolished and severaladoptees were able to go into
the building.
I took pictures, walked throughit, got a doorknob.
(11:50):
It was weird and I was therewith several adoptees to walk in
and we just stood there tryingto figure out, because it went
from St Anthony's Home toWelcome Home, which is a
recovering home for addicts andalcoholics, and they built a new
facility next to it.
So we were standing theretrying to, you know, find out
(12:13):
where all the rooms were wherewas the nursery, where was the
chapel, where were the womenkept, where was the common room?
And we would stand there withour hands on the wall and we
were like you know well, if youcould speak to us, what would
you say, you know, but the doorsand the door handles were
doorknobs, were original.
(12:34):
So I got a partial doorknob.
Somebody else got a wholedoorknob.
People took pictures, framedpictures off the wall and stuff.
Speaker 2 (12:44):
I would have classified that as surreal.
I don't know how I would havehandled that type of opportunity
.
I don't even know if I wouldhave taken that type of an
opportunity as we're talking.
Yeah, got to tell you, lori, Idon't think I would have done it
.
I don't know if I could havedone it and I don't know right
now if I would have done it.
So, kudos to you for takingthat step and, you know, making
(13:06):
some type of a physicalconnection between who you are
and your birth and a building.
Speaker 1 (13:20):
Yes, yes, it's and it's.
I drove by not too long ago andthey were taking bricks down
and stuff.
It's taken them a long time todemolish and when it is fully
demolished, I feel like thatpart of my chapter of my life is
then like done is gone, andwhen us adoptees have very
little of our history to lookback on, I think driving by
there with that building gone isgoing to affect me more than
(13:42):
driving by when it was standingthere.
It was a reminder, but it waspart of my, it was a tangible
part of my past, and now it'sgone.
Speaker 2 (13:53):
That part I can relate to in the context of you
could see physically where youwere born, and I do think there
are adoptees, myself included,who would have liked a little
bit of that opportunity.
I've mentioned it before inseveral episodes.
I really thought I was going todo more research around this
(14:13):
and I just have not.
I've not had the motivation yet, but I do call it life gap and
there's that period of time fromwhatever the birth certificate
says was my birth date and birthtime and weight, what I believe
to be actually adopted.
And then, of course, lack ofpictures is a clear indicator
that I didn't live with thepeople that adopted me right out
(14:34):
of the gate.
I believe I've expressed before, but I want to repeat it, it's
about a six-month period,clearly of six to maybe even a
little bit more.
The first picture I have ofmyself with my adopted parents
I'm kind of looking like a big,chunky baby, so, and I was able
(14:56):
to stand pretty freely.
So if you know child, yeah, ifyou know child development, I
might've been a little bit oldereven so yeah.
Speaker 1 (15:04):
Yeah, yeah, that would have been closer to yeah,
between six and nine months, yep, oh, my, yeah.
Now I was fortunate enough thatI was in my adoptive home 14
days after my birth.
Sadly, I was born three daysbefore Christmas, so it wasn't
until after the new year.
And as I'm looking back throughpictures, I had to clear out my
(15:28):
parents' home and you find allthese pictures.
I realize, my first Christmas.
I don't know where I spent myfirst Christmas, and there is a
picture of my parents and myolder brother on December 25th
1967.
And I'm not in that picture,you know, because I'm not with
(15:50):
them yet.
I was just like, wow, well, whowas I with?
I didn't get any gifts, or didI get gifts?
So you know, that is still abig piece of the puzzle that is
missing.
Still a big piece of the puzzlethat is missing.
You know, as you, as weadoptees, draw in these pieces
of the puzzle, sometimes youthink you only have one piece
(16:10):
missing, but that one piece ismultiple pieces of different
sizes.
You get a little piece of it.
Oh, wow, okay, wait, no, that's.
There's more to that, I thought, finding my birth mother.
Oh, I have answers.
No, where's my first Christmas.
Where's my first Christmaspicture?
Speaker 2 (16:28):
I I may never know yeah, I've always expressed that
too, lori, and it's a littleunsettling and it's very
difficult, even in my familytoday and with my husband, for
that conversation to be heldwhere I am expressing you know,
it's just odd, it just feels oddall the time.
(16:49):
I do think about it more than Imaybe should.
That's the bottom line, right,and it's hard to explain to him
repetitively, which I probablyshould just give that up, that
it just makes me, even at thisage, feel a little bit off.
Speaker 1 (17:05):
Yes, and it is hard to express to people that I call
birthright privileged.
I even say that to my own kids.
I said you guys are birthrightprivileged because you know
everything from your birth.
I can tell you.
You know, kirsten, when I wascarrying you sick all nine
months, and Derek, when Icarried you, you separated my
(17:26):
left hip.
I could barely walk.
I can talk about when I wentinto labor, what it was like,
and the first thing that I saidabout them when I saw them.
You know, my daughter has thisbig bottom lip she inherited
from her father and that's thefirst thing we noticed.
Son come out looking like afighter, he just looked mean
from the beginning.
And us adoptees, we are missingthat part of our birth story,
(17:50):
of our beginning that helps uswhen people know that.
That helps them in theiridentity development, in their
development to be a human humanbecause you have a story there.
Yeah, you know, I was this wayfrom birth.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Well, you had some findings speaking of stories,
and you learned something aboutyour maternal side that once you
learned it, you're like oh,that makes total sense, I can
connect with that.
Tell us a little bit about that, if you would not mind.
Speaker 1 (18:22):
Ironically, I found out who my birth father was
before I found my birth motherand did that through DNA,
23andme and Ancestry kind of acombination of the two but it
was through a second cousin andwe're a true second cousin.
Our grandparents are siblingsand she reached out to me
(18:43):
because she did DNA and she'smore related through my grandma
and I looked at her family tree,thought, oh, this is on my
birth mother's side and I gaveher all the information on my
birth mother's side and she cameback.
She goes no, no, no, that's youknow.
I thought her grandma's youngersister was my grandmother or my
(19:06):
maternal grandmother, but itwasn't.
She goes we, you know, it's gotto be something else.
So I gave her all my birthfather's information, which was
very little.
She came back a couple dayslater and says I know who your
birth father is and his motherwas her grandma's sister, older
sister.
What is so great about that isthat her grandma Gertrude and
(19:28):
then her great aunt Lillian,which is the younger sister,
were professional storytellersin Philadelphia, which I found
just exciting.
Number one, the second cousin,said that she grew up grandma
telling stories so she thenstarted having coffees.
(19:50):
When she became an adult wouldgo down and have coffee with her
grandma and she recorded allthese stories of the family and
then she recorded them,transcribed them, put them in a
book, a self-published book.
That fact that her grandma andgreat aunt were professional
storytellers really resonatedwith me.
I have been saying since I wasin middle school that everyone,
(20:13):
your life, is nothing but acollection of stories, and it's
how you tell that story andwhether or not it is interesting
.
There are people who are goodat telling stories and there are
people who are good at tellingstories and there are people who
are horrible at telling stories.
I have always loved tellingstories.
I do not have a fear ofspeaking in public and I feel
(20:33):
like every experience I have Ican turn it into a story and
then I want to tell it.
I love giving speeches, and sowhen I heard that that was
another piece that connected me,that made me, helped me with my
identity.
I'm a storyteller.
I'm not just like to talk, I'ma storyteller.
(20:54):
I come from a family ofstorytellers.
You know I'm starting to fill ahole again.
That little hole is filling upwith puzzle pieces.
Speaker 2 (21:02):
Yeah, well, and that's very cool to have that
information and to say I feellike I represent that you know
so very, very, very nice for you.
Well, we've mentioned a littlebit about identity through this
conversation and I have spent acalendar year researching,
(21:22):
studying, trying to navigatethrough that topic.
It's not an easy one tonavigate.
There are many pieces.
I'll use your puzzle analogy tohow we think about ourselves.
There is personality.
There is a component of how wefeel about ourselves.
(21:44):
There's a component about howwe feel people perceive us.
Really broad brushing, there isalso the component of the
labels that we use for ourselvesand others use on us as well.
So, we started out, obviously,with this conversation, and why
you're here is you're an adoptee, so that is a component of your
(22:04):
identity.
Yeah, yeah, we've talked aboutyou are married, so that wife
label is a part of your identityas well.
Yeah, we spoke about siblings,and you are a sibling and a
daughter to multiple families.
You are a sibling and adaughter to multiple families.
(22:24):
You are also a former teenmother.
That's, I think, a good way tokind of try to couch that a
little bit, desensitize it in myway.
Yes, how many more labels doyou think you, lori, are going
to feel comfortable with?
Is there a limit?
Do you care, or do you justcollect these pieces because
(22:45):
they are part of the puzzle?
Speaker 1 (22:47):
Excellent question because I did a Sunday school
lesson with my teen high schoolSunday school class about
identity and personality and Iput together this little graph.
I wanted them to understandwhat are their identities.
Identity encompasses everythingthat helps us fit into society,
(23:10):
into our family.
It helps us understand ourpurpose, what we believe and
stand for, and tonight I wasjust looking at it and I have 27
different identities.
Actually, I started out with 25and looked at it.
Oh, I need to add this and Ineed to add that, and I do
believe our identity got mydegree in psychology and you
(23:33):
know we discuss identity,personality and such Identity
can continue to change and growas we mature, because we do take
on more identities as we getmarried, as we have children.
I'm a grandmother, which isprobably the best label that I
love being a grandma.
I worked for a company andHallmark cards for years and you
(23:57):
were a Hallmarker.
That was part of your identitya Hallmarker.
Well, I no longer work forhallmark.
That's a former title, being ateen mom.
It's funny.
I don't put a teen mom as aformer, I'm like I am a teen mom
, I embrace it.
This is what I look like.
Identities can stick with us andthey can change and grow as we
(24:22):
do.
My son was a Marine for eightyears and if you have anyone in
the military, you're, you know,used to be a sailor, used to be
a soldier, but a Marine isalways a Marine.
Once a Marine, always Marine.
Yeah, you know that's.
And so I am always a Marine mom.
That's another identity and Ihave a little analogy here.
(24:45):
I hope I can explain it wellenough.
It has to do with the butterfly.
We are all born a caterpillar,adopting, non-adopting.
We're all a caterpillar, theirgenetics.
They transform into a butterflysooner and easier than us
(25:07):
adoptees or those of us who wereraised in a genetically
influenced environment that didnot match our genetics.
So when they transform as theymature and they become the
people that they were created tobe, they become that butterfly.
It is celebrated.
It is not hidden, it is expected, they're not scared.
(25:29):
But us adoptees we don't knowhow to transform like that
because we have no geneticmirroring and it's a little
scary, so we're a little bitslower to let our wings come out
and become butterflies.
Our identity labels areinfluenced by our environment
and when the genetic environmentmatches us it feels more
(25:51):
comfortable and we're allowed todo that.
Adoptees, we don't feelcomfortable, so becoming a
butterfly is kind of scary to us.
History in finding ourbiological parents such as me,
finding that my father'sgrandmother's side or his mom's
(26:12):
side are professionalstorytellers, my wings popped
out and I become the beautifulbutterfly that I've always been,
was made to be.
When we find our birth families, adoptees are a lot of times
told you've changed, you're adifferent person, and it's
because we've been hiding.
The people who've known us foryears are kind of like you're a
(26:47):
different person.
No, I'm the same person.
I'm just finally being able toexpress who I was meant to be.
Speaker 2 (26:54):
Yeah, that's a great.
That's a great depiction and avery well painted picture of how
we move through that entireconversation of identity.
I like that.
Move through that entireconversation of identity.
I like that, and I also likedjust the acknowledgement of 27
different labels.
(27:14):
I'm using the term labelbecause I definitely don't want
to, you know, superimpose mythoughts of what that means, but
wow, and I wonder if we tooktime and we're reflecting.
That's one angle.
I do talk about self-assessment, and, in my own rights, I do
(27:35):
reflect.
I am a huge reflector, alwayslooking at what I did or could
have done differently, becauseI'm also an overthinker, and I
know that, and that's anidentity as well.
Overthinker is part of myidentity, and people pleaser and
all of those along with that.
Where I'm going with that,though, is it's nice to hear you
(27:56):
affirm for me in ourconversation.
It is a very large bucket thatcan continue to change, and
there might be some that havethe past tense and the present
tense, and that implies futuretense.
Speaker 1 (28:13):
Very much so.
Speaker 2 (28:14):
Well, one of the topics that you and I agreed we
wanted to touch on isspirituality and your faith, and
we purposely decided to go here.
Yes, because there is a lotaround that topic aside from
adoption Then you put inadoption and because we are
(28:37):
technically from the same basicera generation there is a
boatload around that termreligion and faith and adoptees.
You have said you know, momentsago, Catholic Charities.
What I find very interesting ingetting to know you, Lori, is
(28:57):
that you do have a very strongfaith and you know Catholic
Charities had something to dowith you and you know Catholic
Charities had something to dowith you.
And so how have you, as you andall those identities we just
talked about, how are you kindof utilizing your faith and your
(29:18):
belief system to ground you andwhy do you find that's
important?
Speaker 1 (29:23):
Mm, hmm, oh, it is.
That's important.
Oh, it is.
Yes, one of my identities isChristian and identity is talked
a lot in the Christian faithand because of Catholic
charities and my adoption andthis shame that so many
religions adoption is a paradox.
(29:43):
We all know that Religionshames the birth mother for
having sexual relationships outof marriage.
Therefore, you are not smartenough, rich enough, old enough
to be a mom, not clean enough tobe a mom.
Therefore, you cannot keep thischild.
Cannot keep this child, but atthe same time, adopting that
(30:11):
child is nothing but Godordained and perfect and 100%
and holy and happiness.
It's such a paradox right there, because you've got to convince
one mother, one woman, that shecannot be a mother in order for
another one, for someone else,to be a mother, and that is so
hard.
I've sat through so many sermonsbecause the narrative in
(30:33):
Christianity is that an earthlyadoption is the same as a
spiritual adoption, because weare all adopted into God's
family.
It's in Romans and EphesiansGod is our father.
When we give our life over toChrist, we are adopted into his
(30:54):
family, and so they're likeearthly adoption is the same way
, but it's not.
It's different, and the keydifferences between spiritual
adoption and earthly adoption isthat spiritual adoption is a
choice.
Earthly adoption is not achoice.
It is not a choice at all forthe adoptee and for most birth
(31:17):
mothers that is not their choiceeither, even though they were
convinced it was their choice,it wasn't.
Spiritual adoption is aboutsaving us from our past life,
but earthly adoption what is itsaving us from Now?
In some cases, yes, you aresaving a child from a horrific
(31:37):
family life, but still it's notsaving us from anything.
Spiritual adoption detaches ourpast life, our sinful life,
from our new life, and our newlife is a blessing.
However and this is the key ourpast life is never wiped from
our memory.
We do not lose our past life,it's just detached from us.
(32:02):
But in earthly adoption, ourpast life, our history, our
heritage is wiped clean, it issealed, it is treated with shame
.
It's not just detached from us,it is thrown away.
Speaker 2 (32:17):
I love the way that you have explained that and,
honestly, for a bit, when wewere prepping and we agreed to
talk about this post, thatpreparatory discussion, I had
some second thoughts.
I really did and I'm going tobe really direct with my
listeners.
I had second thoughts because Iknow it's such a touchy subject
(32:39):
.
But what I really liked aboutit in retrospect and I came to
I'm still going to do it we saidwe wanted to talk about it,
we're going to do it.
Here's what I myself came to inretrospect and I came to I'm
still going to do it.
We said we wanted to talk aboutit, we're going to do it.
Here's what I myself came to inretrospect.
In that entire dialogue, younot one time actually set aside
the pain as if it was acceptabledue to a religion, a belief
(33:03):
system, a faith or a connectionof spirituality.
You didn't do that and I reallywould just wish for others in
general that they could have anopportunity to hear adoptees who
are in your space of thatthought process and go oh,
(33:25):
non-adoptees and adoptees alike,just go oh.
I mean it's just such a reallywell said point of view.
So thank you.
Speaker 1 (33:35):
You're welcome.
You're welcome and you knowwith them, with the Christian
faith.
Anytime I would talk aboutbeing.
You know like I struggle withidentity, because I have no
generic mirroring when thecomment is said to me, but your
identity is in Christ, where Ialways say, even though I
(33:57):
struggle with identity, becauseno matter how good or how bad a
daughter, a wife, a coworker, afriend, a cousin, you know I can
list all of those identitiesthat I am, whether I'm
successful or a failure at those, my self-worth and my value is
based on.
(34:17):
I'm a child of God and becauseI'm a child of God I will always
have self-worth and value.
But it still doesn't alwaysanswer the identity question.
Being able to know that I comefrom a family of possible strong
swimmers and storytellers, Ithen have even more confidence
(34:38):
and I feel more like who Godmeant for me to be.
Speaker 2 (34:43):
I'm going to touch on that a little bit because I get
where you're coming from.
I think I shared this with youwhen we were prepping.
There are so many times in mylife where I have said, god,
seriously, like, what lessonhave I not learned?
If I believe my destiny ispaved for me, it's all part of a
(35:07):
plan I got to tell you as asinful human walking the earth,
I have.
I've got questions and I don'tlie about it.
Right, I don't really jokeabout it, but sometimes it
sounds like I'm joking, but Iintend to stand there and go.
I didn't get something.
And really, seriously, what wasI there for?
(35:27):
Because I'd like to see the.
Can we play the tape back alittle bit?
That day, yeah, that sucked,let's go, keep going.
I know I'm not supposed toquestion you.
I didn't walk the earth for Xnumber of decades.
I still have questions.
Remember that day?
It was beyond sucky.
Oh, let's go back to that veryfirst day.
It sucked so bad I didn't evenknow how bad it sucked, you know
(35:49):
?
Speaker 1 (35:50):
Oh oh, I believe.
Oh no, I I'm with you, rightthere At least, and because I'm
even now, I question, even todaywhat is the purpose?
Why are you sending me?
What am I supposed to learn andwhy am I being so hardheaded
about it?
I mean, I can, I can look back,because I've spent so much time
(36:10):
, just like you, beingreflective on my adoption story
that there's other things in mylife.
When, when Hallmark cut meafter 26 years, that was
devastating and I was like whythis was supposed to be my time.
You know, I graduated college.
10 weeks after I graduatedcollege, lost my job, finally
(36:34):
going to have the money and havethe time.
And now I'm like, what was thepurpose?
I have a lot of questions too.
Yeah, Because I do still havethe question of and this is
where even the Christian faith Ibattle with Because my mother
I've reached.
I found her through getting mybirth certificate reached out to
(36:57):
her, and she has made it veryclear through another family
member that she does not wantany communication with me.
Why is that member that shedoes not want any communication
with me?
Why is that?
Why she carries though so muchshame and embarrassment that
(37:18):
even 50, some odd years latershe can't face it.
She's buried it so deep and Iwish I could just go up to her
and say you have nothing to beashamed of, nothing to be afraid
of.
I don't care if we becomefriends or not, but you do not
need to be filled with shame.
What you did, there's no shamein.
That's where I struggle.
So my voice always is thatchurch is let's stop shaming
(37:41):
those women.
Let's stop shaming them.
Speaker 2 (37:43):
Yeah, and I think that fits into your advocacy as
well and just speaking out andtelling your story.
Thank you for sharing a littlebit about that.
I do again want to acknowledgethat type of a topic is hard in
the adoptee community to reallyexplore and I am thankful we
were willing to jump in.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
Yes, thank you for giving me that opportunity.
Thank you, willing to jump in.
Speaker 2 (38:05):
Yes, thank you for giving me that opportunity.
Thank you, yeah, no problemAnytime.
Let's take a turn here a littlebit.
Talk about advocacy, talk aboutthe adoptee community and your
connection in that, and I justwant to acknowledge you and I
met at a conference last year.
Speaker 1 (38:20):
It was my second conference and how I got
involved in the advocacy.
Part of it was the Missouri lawthat opened up original birth
certificates to adoptees.
I joined Facebook and otherthings to help find my birth
mother and found out about thisgroup, and most of those people
(38:43):
were part of what they calledthe Adoption Army, which went
down to Jefferson City toadvocate to open the birth
certificates original birthcertificate support group.
It is a peer-led support group.
I'm just there to facilitate,to have a place for people to
meet.
I share information that Ireceive.
(39:03):
I was scheduled to go to theNAAP it was actually known as
Indiana Adoption Network at thattime in 2020, in March 2020, to
go to their conference.
And then COVID hit and theywent online with happy hour,
which to me, was like the bestthing that ever happened,
(39:24):
because through these weeklyFriday night happy hours, I
learned that I was not the onlyadoptee that felt the way that I
did Heard so many stories ofadoptees, of NPEs, birth mothers
, adoptive mothers, birthfathers, adoptive fathers,
(39:48):
mothers, adoptive mothers, birthfathers, adoptive fathers, and
so their conference, you know,kept getting postponed until
2021.
So that was the first conferenceI went to met so many people
and then they joined with rightto know, had untangling your
roots and and I was I was likethis is what I want to do.
I want to get up and I want toshare my story, talk to people
and encourage people, like somany have me, and went to this
(40:10):
conference, which was awesome.
I think the combination of thetwo groups was just wonderful.
Met you, met a lot of people.
My support group, my supportnetwork, is just expanding and
so through that, I'm able to getmore information that helps my
support group.
Here I share my story.
(40:32):
I was on another podcast backin 2019, I believe it's called
Cut Off Jeans.
Speaker 2 (40:41):
Oh, yes, yes, I don't talk about that one as often,
but I do listen to that one andI have no problem with people
talking about other podcasts.
On this podcast, I 100% supportevery person out there who's
willing to do something likethis and talk, and there are
more adoptees than even thecurrent volume of podcasters can
cover.
Speaker 1 (41:02):
See, hers is part storytelling and information on
how to search and it helped meduring my search.
Some things to do, some things.
My initial story is threeepisodes and then I have an
update about a year later andeverything and how would you
like to?
Speaker 2 (41:20):
close out our conversation today, what's
really important for you to getacross to our community of
adoptees and non-adoptees, as wesay thank you and goodbye yeah.
Speaker 1 (41:39):
You know, telling our stories as we know as adoptees
and really in any communitygroup, telling your story is
very, very important.
That's one step, but we allknow that communication is a
two-way street and veryimportant, and right now I have
a quote up in my office thatsays the problem with
communication is that we listento respond instead of listening
(42:06):
to understand.
So I would ask anyone who islistening to anyone's stories
adoptees, birth mothers,adoptive parents that you listen
, not to respond, but listen tolearn and understand.
Speaker 2 (42:21):
Very well said.
Well, I want to thank you againfor spending time with us.
It has been a pleasure to getto know you through multiple
engagements.
Now, you are always welcome toreturn here.
Thank you again, just for beingpart of our community.
Speaker 1 (42:38):
Well, I cannot thank you enough for doing what you do
and for inviting me.
Thank you so much, and it hasbeen a complete pleasure.
I've had so much fun talkingwith you.
Speaker 2 (42:50):
Likewise, Likewise, thank you for listening to
today's episode of WanderingTree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopted journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out at.
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