April 30, 2024 • 49 mins
Art meets advocacy when the transformative power of storytelling takes the spotlight. As a playwright, Suzanne Bachner channeled the raw emotions and experiences of the adoptee's pursuit into narratives that resonate beyond the stage, touching hearts and influencing legislative change. This episode doesn't merely trace Suzanne's path to discovering her beginnings; it also celebrates the broader victories for adoptee rights, highlighting the vital role of the arts in this movement. Through the craft of live performances, we've seen the adoption narrative shift and gain momentum, even as we continue to advocate for unrestricted access to original birth certificates and the fulfillment of every adoptee's right to know their heritage.
When Suzanne speaks, we listen - the echoes of a past era and the soul-searching journey of an adoptee become palpable - a narrative woven from the threads of the Baby Scoop Era, where the controversial practices of Louise Wise Services and the emotional odyssey of finding one's roots take center stage. Suzanne's candid recounting are far from a tale of disloyalty to her adoptive family, it emerges as a tender testament to the complex layers of identity and the hunger for truth that defines many adoptees' lives.
Listening to Suzanne's journey, our hearts are woven into the fabric of her experiences, reflecting the spirit of resilience that defines the adoptee community. We discuss the significance of these shared stories, the advocacy that propels us forward, and the interconnectedness that fosters a sense of belonging within our ranks. Join us as we traverse the emotional landscape of adoption, celebrate the strides made in adoptee rights, and affirm the enduring strength found in the community's collective voice.
🎭 Award-Winning Play by @suzannejouvay
Suzanne Bachner
Artistic Director | JMTC Theatre
Playwright & Director | The Good Adoptee | More
FB: https://www.facebook.com/TheGoodAdoptee
IG: https://www.instagram.com/thegoodadoptee/
Find your people, cherish your people and love your people.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:10):
You know, when you're walking down the street and
you're just like, oh, one ofthese people could be my mother,
like that is terrifying, andjust narrowing down and finding
all of those pieces that'remissing.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, life identitysearch and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, suzanne Backner.
Welcome to the show, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Lisa Anne, I'm so honored to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, we're glad to have you with us and we're going
to go ahead and just kick rightinto the conversation, get
going with who you are, but,more importantly, a little bit
about your adoption story.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Great.
Well, I am a domestic same race, white and Jewish free row baby
scoop heir, adoptee, born,raised and adopted in New York
City.
My pronouns are she, her and Iwas relinquished and adopted
through Louise Wise Services.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So I don't know if everybody's heard about those
services in the past.
I know we have a lot ofcommonality in our stories, but
I came from Crichton.
I know that there's BethanyServices and so I thought maybe
if we could just take a coupleminutes and give a little bit of
context about those servicesfor others that might be
(01:50):
impacted by that particularbranch of the world.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, louise Wise has an interesting history.
It was the premier Jewishadoption agency in New York City
for years and years and years.
They were located.
They had a spot on the UpperEast Side and that was sort of
where Jewish people looked toadopt back in the baby scoop and
(02:15):
post baby scoop eras actually.
So they closed their doorsaround 2010.
And then they got a little notso great publicity with the
books Identical Strangers andthe movie Three Identical
Strangers, where adoptees whowent through Louise Wise were
(02:36):
secretly separated and studiedin horrific, unethical,
destructive twin studies thatwere conducted with the
cooperation of the agency.
So I'm so glad to be from there.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, I think that it would be good to know you are
not a twin or a triplet, and youare not part of those studies,
you just happen to be, a babythat passed through that
particular center and service.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yes, yes, so a very different story, although when I
was doing my search they hadjust moved and so all of the
records from Louise Wise hadgone to Fence Chapin, a
surviving adoption agency in NewYork, and still today they
didn't know if I was part of thetwin studies while I was
(03:26):
searching, because all of thoserecords were all messed up, and
so I went for the better part ofa year thinking that I knew of
adoptees who were sort ofbookending me in time.
So I thought, oh, I am part ofthis era of these horrific twin
studies, so I didn't know thatyou know if I was a twin or not,
(03:47):
until they finally were able totell me.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I find that interesting, and maybe what we
should do is take a little bitof a step back and talk about
your search and some of theactivities that you engaged in
to find out who you werebiologically Taking another step
back.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I landed in the household of a wonderful couple,
the Backners, where I had asense of a certain amount of
belonging and we were a verysmall family.
I was an only child adoptee,which I think is a it's.
I feel like we should have ourown support group for being only
children adoptee, but onlychild adoptees.
(04:29):
But and we kind of calledourselves the tripod, because it
was mom, dad, me and we wentthrough a lot of difficulties
with illnesses and stuff when Iwas in high school, all three of
us life-threatening illnesses,all three of us life-threatening
illnesses.
So my desire to find out moreabout myself and to find, you
know, to do a search, to do thatkind of thing, was a little bit
(04:51):
stunted because I felt like, ohmy God, I am belonging here and
kind of hanging on by a threadof survival, you know, in this
situation.
And I felt that it would be aneven bigger betrayal if I went
and searched and that was, youknow, thankfully, to thank,
thanks to, in part, you know,the culture that says, oh, if
(05:13):
you are interested in searching,then you're automatically
betraying your adoptive parents,which does not help anybody.
So I really was like a latesearcher.
I was in my mid-30s when I firstsearched.
Although I do consider so manydifferent activities you know
the inner life of an adoptee,even as a child I consider some
(05:34):
of the things that I used tocontemplate and look into, and
when I used to write stories andall of these things.
If I, you know, look back onall of that, I say I was, oh, I
was searching, I was alwayssearching.
There wasn't a time that Iwasn't searching, and I always
knew that I was adopted.
My parents were very open aboutthat, and so I don't remember
(05:55):
an event of being, you know,having this news broken to me.
Oh, guess what?
You're adopted, you know.
So it was almost likenormalized to you know, aren't,
aren't most kids adopted?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
you know right?
Yeah, I said, everyone like me.
Well, I want to.
I would do want to acknowledgeyou made a couple of statements,
but there's a word you used acouple times already and so I'm
going to circle back on thatwhich is your, your tripod, but
belonging, and I want us toalways hold a spot for how
everyone feels about theiradoption, but also their family
(06:35):
that raised them, and so youhave indicated you felt a
belonging.
You didn't feel, you know,drastically separated from them
still a little bit of searching,but not drastically separated
from them.
Is that a true interpretationof your statement of belonging?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, and I'm so glad that you are holding that space
for this because I think it's socrucial and just to map that
out a little more.
And to map that out a littlemore and to acknowledge that
having a sense of belonging inyour adoptive family is a place
of great privilege, which I wantto note and be thankful for,
but also that that is notsomething that happens all the
(07:16):
time for adoptees, but justinherently being adopted and
being displaced from my originalfamily and from that ancestral
line into the one that and theones that I feel that sense of
belonging to with my adoptivefamily.
You know, it's kind of that twosides of the coin.
(07:38):
You know where I felt anintense sense of belonging and
safety with my adoptive familyand that almost allowed me to
deny adoption issues and to pushaside the undermining effect of
not knowing where I came fromand not having a connection to
(07:59):
my original first family.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, I think that's important.
You can have both sides of yourcoin.
You can have the concept ofbelonging and you can also want
to search, and the reason Ibrought it to the table for our
discussion is there really is aplace for everybody to have
those feelings, and I also wantto hold a spot for those that
have been hurt by this eventrelative to how they were raised
(08:24):
.
So I'm pretty open about my ownexperience and I, you know, I
know I was loved in the best waythat I could be.
I'm also very open about mythoughts and feelings about my
adopted mother.
So you know, we all have adifferent experience and it's
nice to hear when adoptees arealso comfortable acknowledging
(08:44):
that they really did have a goodsense of belonging, despite the
circumstances.
Take us on a part of yoursearch journey and some of the
highlights of what you found outabout yourself, because there's
some parallel about how youwere placed and where you came
from biologically, and I findthat intriguing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, my parents, my adoptive parents, are an
interfaith couple and when theygot together it was really
frowned upon.
It was really a big deal.
You know their wedding picturesthere's people of the immediate
family wearing black.
It looks like a funeral.
It's unbelievable to me, butthey kind of fooled everyone or
(09:30):
they showed everyone, I shouldsay because they have been
together for a very long timeand when they were adopting they
went to a Unitarian adoptionsituation first and they sort of
said, oh, my mom is Catholic,my dad is Jewish.
And they said, oh, you need tosign away that you're part of
(09:53):
the Unitarian community.
And my dad said I'm Jewish, Ican't do that.
So they then went to LouiseWise where my grandmother was on
the board and actually veryclose friends with Justine
Poehler who ran it, and I thinkthey didn't want to do that
(10:13):
because my grandmother was oneof the people wearing black at
their wedding.
So I don't think they wanted toreally do that necessarily.
And I just want to make itclear that anyone who has seen
Three Identical Strangers mygrandmother was not one of those
people in the back room, youknow, drinking champagne for
getting away with this horribletwin study that did not happen
with her involved.
I think they took extra care tokind of like match me.
(10:36):
So it's unusual for a baby whohas a non-Jewish mother to be
put through a Jewish agency.
And as I discovered and I hadlike a little background on this
, but it wasn't quite accurateas so much of our background
information that's shared cannot be accurate this is accurate
(10:57):
now that I know it my birthfather was studying to be a
rabbi in the Dory but he wasactually Orthodox Jewish and not
always wearing a yarmulke, youknow, and he was also with a
non-Jewish person who heimpregnated.
So he was obviously the LouiseWise connection.
(11:17):
And my first mother wasPresbyterian raised, was
Presbyterian raised and she wastrying to make a family with my
first father and ended upconverting to Judaism and like
reform Judaism.
I always say like MarilynMonroe did for Arthur Miller,
but that worked out better thanin her situation because she was
(11:41):
with an Orthodox man with anOrthodox family and that just
wasn't really going to fly.
So it was kind of like thisweird circumstance of interfaith
coupling on both sides of myhistory that led to me being,
you know, in Louise Weiss in thefirst place and then being, you
know, bought by donation to theagency by, you know, this
(12:01):
interfaith couple.
So it was a strangecircumstance.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I would agree, very unique.
No doubt that was unique.
Do you think there werebenefits in that, just from your
perspective of who you are?
Because if we tag in yourbiology to your adoption family,
there might have been justenough similarities.
Have you ever given that someconsideration that you were
(12:26):
actually raised in context tohow you might have been raised
biologically?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Absolutely.
I think that's right on target,because I think I mean I said,
oh, I have the privilege ofhaving this belongingness that
happened but I think I also havethe privilege of having like
just a little more I don't know,social engineering going into
the match, which can't alwayshappen doesn't always happen, as
(12:55):
we know but I think that therewas like an extra little twinge
of that that really did supportmy family, me and my parents in
having kind of a good match inmany ways.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, I like the word that you use social engineering
.
That's very interesting.
I don't know if I've everthought of some of the
connection of how we are placedas adoptees into homes under
that context, and so I like that.
I mean, I might have to, overtime, think about that
differently and and dig in alittle bit to see how other
(13:30):
adoptees feel about that kind ofa concept.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well, I hadn't thought about you know what,
what you're bringing up here,for you know most of my life
until I started searching.
And I started, you know, I wentto Spence Chapin to try to get
my materials, my file, that Ithought I just go into the
agency and say, hey, I'm readyfor my file now and they just
give it to me.
And that's when I sort ofdiscovered all sorts of things
(13:53):
about adult adoptees that I hadno idea about and inequality.
That's a whole other subject.
But basically when I went inand finally said this and they
had just moved, like they hadjust acquired, like they shut
down Louise Wise, ben Chapin,you know, taken charge of all of
the Louise Wise adoptees andpaperwork and all of that.
(14:16):
So when I first said, oh, youknow, I'd like my information,
they said we can't have yourinformation.
But they also they also said,well, gee, guess what we have
have your information.
But they also they also said,well, gee, guess what, we have
lost your information.
So my file that I couldn't evensee by law at that point in New
York State was also like all ofmy my materials were missing and
(14:37):
and as this kind of played out.
And then they found them.
But I thought, perhaps, andmaybe, you know, it's me being
trained as the chosen adoptee,who is so special, you know.
But I did have this weirdconnection with my grandmother
being involved there, et cetera.
But I was like, oh, maybe myfile was in a different spot and
(14:58):
wasn't with all the other files, maybe my file was that drawer
that ended up in the other placewhen they, you know, put all
the files into Spence Chapin,something weird like that.
Because so that that kind ofbolstered my, my social
engineering theory about myadoption.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, but I could see the connection, for you know,
for that type of a topic,absolutely let's touch on.
You did find some of yourinformation and we're going to
come back to your adopteesrights topic a little bit later
in this conversation, but let'sget back to you.
Were able at some point in thissearch to validate who your
(15:36):
biological father and motherwere, and you also have made
contact with family members, andso I want to talk a little bit
about your perspective andthoughts around reunion.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Well, first I want to say that the act of going and
searching, you know, which I hadto really allow myself to do
because I was so stuck on sortof, oh I don't need to do that,
oh I, you know, I'm okay, thingsare okay when I just allowed
(16:16):
myself to really search and notjust, yeah, I've written plays
where I've searched and all ofthis and it's kind of fantasy
searching and I don't get intotrouble for it with real people.
So when I, when I allowedmyself to do that, that just I
mean before finding anything,just the act of going and
searching was like one of themost powerful and empowering and
(16:37):
grounding things I've ever doneand it just somehow reclaimed
this just the circumstances ofbeing an adoptee where sort of
the most crucial decision isjust sort of naturally made by
biological kids who are kept intheir biological families, this
displacement from the one line,the one you know, the line of
(17:00):
ancestry and the original family.
That decision is made and wehave no say in it at all and
we're not even really supportedin dealing with the trauma and
subsequent, hopefully, healingof that decision being made for
us and then we just get stuck,you know, in that situation.
So just going and searching andsaying I'm giving you the green
(17:23):
light to go search and beingable to do that, was just this
tsunami of oh, I'm taking backmy own life, like I am, I am
empowering myself and, as Ifound out, stuff sort of filling
the cup, you know, with like oh, that's me, you know that's
someone I'm connected to, or youknow that's not someone I'm
(17:44):
connected to, because there'sall of those you know, you could
, you know, when you're walkingdown the street and you're just
like, oh, one of these peoplecould be my mother, like that is
terrifying.
And just narrowing down andfinding all of those pieces that
were missing, that I hadn'teven allowed myself to
acknowledge were missing, justcollecting that and I was like
(18:04):
obsessed, as so many people arewhen they do this, but I was
absolutely obsessed.
I became Nancy Drew.
I was like solving this mysteryand I just was writing down
each and every step of it.
You know I made this call atlike 3.28pm, you know, and I was
just every little detail wasmine and it didn't matter that
(18:26):
it led to anything or whatever,but it was such a huge step of
kind of taking back my life fromadoption, from the ill parts of
adoption, the traumatizing andundermining and difficult and
impossible push of adoption.
I was like pushing back and Ifelt like Wonder Woman.
I felt like so empowered, andevery time I got a little peace
(18:50):
and understood oh, that's me andI've made this identity in this
totally fake, false way ofadopted person Suzanne, adopted
person Suzanne Bacner is all ofthese things that I've
constructed and some of them arereal.
Some of them have to do with thecore, inherent core person that
I am, but some of them don't.
(19:12):
And then that influx ofmaterial of like oh, that's me
and I'm going to claim that andthat's me and I'm going to claim
that, and maybe I'm not goingto claim that, but now I have
better understanding.
So every time I went throughthat process I felt like there
was more me and I felt like Icould connect with the people I
(19:33):
loved and have more to sharewith them and more to for them
to see and to really see me.
And that was a whole other, youknow, sort of self-pushed,
self-created sense of belonging.
I mean, that was, those wereall of the wonderful things that
happened when I searched, thathave nothing to do with even
actual reunion yet.
(19:54):
But right.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know that's the thought that keeps running
through my mind as you'retalking is your evolution of
your identity and how the personyou were as you were growing up
, who knew which was yourundercurrent to the life story?
But then, as you were growingup, who knew which was your
undercurrent to the life story?
But then, as you started thesearch and picking up
(20:18):
information which I believe youare indicating is critical right
.
Those are critical pieces, evenif they are not useful pieces,
and how that started evolvingyour identity and how you felt
about you, which then allowedyou to give out more.
I really like that perspective.
(20:39):
I don't know if I've thought ofidentity in that way, but I
really do like that perspectiveBecause we are consistently
changing when we're in thisportion of the journey around
search and reunion.
Very nice, very nicely said.
All right, well, let's go aheadand start getting into a little
bit of reunion and you know kindof some of that and tagging it
(21:03):
into your evolving identity thatwe just, you know, kind of
touched upon.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Reunion was challenging, I mean, and so I
during reunion I felt sounderserved by pop culture and I
mean it's not safe out there,you know, exploitative, without
you know really realizing that.
(21:57):
And they were so they so didnot serve me when I actually
went and was doing that formyself and I thought that I had
kind of gone and said, okay, ifI'm going to do this and I might
find real people, and I mean Ihad to do a big shift.
I always felt like I wanted tofind both of my parents, because
I think that I had that LouiseWise narrative that my birth
(22:20):
father was such a big part of mebeing there, so I would
constantly look at rabbis whowere the right age and say, oh,
could that be my father?
It's just crazy, crazy, crazymaking.
I thought, oh, maybe he's stillin New York and what have you,
I didn't find him in thatanecdotal, weird way of that.
(22:41):
Well, I didn't have to, but Idecided to hire a professional
to help me because I had myfirst mother's maiden name was
Smith and she had changed,changed her name, like the name
that she was out in the worldwith did not match the name that
she had when she gave birth tome.
So it was just like such abeyond me being Nancy Drew, I
(23:04):
finally I finally had to go andhire, search.
I did find my birth father firstand he had passed and I was
very I knew that this could be apossibility because I didn't
search when I was 16.
I knew that this could be apossibility because I didn't
search when I was 16.
So I knew that even if you're16, you could also have lost
someone you don't know.
But I did find, like, the firstperson who I am biologically
related to, that I hadencountered in life, was my
(23:27):
birth uncle, my first uncle, mybirth father's brother, and he
was not incredibly welcoming.
And I think what I was, youknow, in going and preparing for
all of these differentpossibilities like if it's not
going to be an Oprah reunion,then what kind of possibility is
it Then you know you kind ofhave to create all these
(23:49):
scenarios, you know, in thiscontrol freak way of like being
like, oh, I can handle thisbecause I thought about it ahead
of time and I just didn't thinkabout this uncle.
And this uncle had actually been, he was in the Louise Wise
paperwork because he was likewith my birth father and birth
mother when they were having thebaby and she had come from
(24:14):
Virginia to New York to where hewas to have this baby me and I
think she was trying to, youknow, keep me at that point and
it didn't work out because ofthe orthodox thing and several
other factors, and he was likethis figure in this paperwork,
that it was like he was part ofmy little mini Louise Wise
narrative or Spence Chapinnarrative, that he was there and
(24:36):
it's not that I thought hewould be so excited to hear from
me.
I mean, he just I didn't know,but I've somehow and this is a
weird thing, but somehow I was Iwas prepared to have like the
door slammed in my face and becursed out and you know all of
this kind of stuff, but I wasn'tprepared to be handled in this
sort of weird lawyerly way ofsort of sharing some information
(25:00):
but not and just sort ofgetting the door elegantly
gently closed in my face.
I just didn't know what to dowith it.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, I think when we were talking previously,
suzanne, we kind of referencedit as the soft rejection, almost
silent rejection, withoutsaying you're rejected, but
saying you're rejected and Idon't know.
I'm with you when going throughthe what if?
Scenarios, because I want allthe control and I overthink.
(25:29):
I don't know if we think ofthat one, we think of all of the
other stuff, like what if theydon't answer the letter?
If you send the letter?
What if they don't answer thecall?
What if they're deceased?
What if I upset their worldbecause I've never told anyone?
What if they think I'm a badperson?
I mean, I know we go throughthose as adoptees and you and I
(25:51):
have talked about that a littlebit.
But yeah, that silent, softrejection and just the skill of
that that you and I talked about, it's kind of phenomenal when
you think about that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean he's a family attorney in
Miami and it makes sense becausemy adoptive dad is a lawyer.
I know we have lots of lawyersin all of my branches of family,
so I understand kind of howlawyers work to an extent.
But there was thiscompartmentalization that was so
(26:25):
, so odd, and I mean not so odd,but you know where, somehow in
his writing, because I had thisall in a letter and somehow,
like I was his brother'sdaughter but he was not my uncle
, and you know how does that,how do those two things exist?
And I think that he was reallythe gatekeeper.
(26:46):
And so you know, he didn'tshare with me any of my siblings
I think there are five and hedidn't sort of share anything
about them.
So there was just so manyquestions that came up and he
kind of took it that I wastrying to find my birth mother,
who he knew from back then buthadn't seen since then, and I
(27:07):
really wasn't writing to him forthat.
I, you know, I really want totalk to him and I would never
have found any of this family ifit weren't for the genius of my
searcher.
But you know, my searcher madethat first call to him
unbeknownst to me and without mypermission, and so it's like
she actually spoke to this uncleof mine.
(27:29):
I'm going to claim him, even ifhe doesn't want me.
She actually spoke to him andhave not had that pleasure.
I'll keep it on pleasure and Ihave not had that pleasure.
What's interesting is that mydad, both my parents, have
really evolved from.
Oh, if your child is lookingfor their original family, that
(27:49):
must be a rejection on you oryou know, it has nothing to do
with their identity and needingto know these things and what
have you.
They had the unhappiness ofbeing fed that as they were
growing up, as they were growingup as adoptive parents.
So, you know, we had to like,really work on that together and
they really evolved Probablynot as much in conversation from
(28:12):
conversation with me as seeingmy plays, but you know where it
could be, like third hand almostto them.
But my dad actually offered towrite to my uncle and tell him.
You know how much he and therest of the family were missing
out by not knowing me.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, that would have been sweet to some extent.
Now, did you take him up onthat offer?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
I did not because, honestly, just the fact that he
offered that, I felt sosupported and taken care of by
that.
But I was just like I have tobe the one to try to reach out
if I want to do that myself.
I was just like I'm too much ofa control freak to then, like,
put that in his hands.
(28:54):
It's just, it's not going to begood for me, even if it turns
out well.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I mean that's just crapshoot on the on the
table in Vegas at that pointRight.
I don't know any other analogyto put with that.
I mean it could go anydirection.
Well, I want to.
I want us to move a little bithere.
And you've mentioned twodifferent things, and they're
actually part of you evolvingyour identity and who you are,
(29:22):
and they are tied to your searchand minimal reunion.
And you've touched on adopteerights, the lack thereof, and I
am a playwright For thelisteners.
Let's bring those two conceptstogether adoptee rights,
playwright and tell us how theyconnect you together as a person
(29:45):
.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, I have written about adoption.
They were searching pieces andnot clearly about adoption, but
when I look back at them now.
But when I was eight, I wrote apiece about these three odd
space aliens who were coming toEarth and trying to find their
way home, and it was calledCreatures from an Unknown Planet
(30:08):
.
So if that isn't a tell, Idon't know what is.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Intriguing for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, and they encounter a human child on earth
.
So clearly I got that I was.
You know, I didn't fully, trulybelong.
I started writing and reallydoing a lot of healing and
searching work where I felt safe, exploring issues of adoption
and putting in adoptee themesand all of the stuff in my work
as a playwright.
And then I really, when Istarted searching, I actually
wanted to write a play that wastotally real because I was so
(30:44):
obsessed with.
You know all of the facts andwhen you're doing fictional or
even fantasy type playwritingwork you're not talking about.
Oh, my birth mom's originalname was Smith.
So if you're making it Jones,then you're not capturing.
You know what you're searchingand fighting for.
(31:06):
And I say fighting for to bringin the Adopt Me Rights piece
because as this adult, I waslike shocked to, as I said, to
find out like, oh, I couldn't goand get my file.
How, what?
How is that right?
So I wrote the play the GoodAdoptee, which is totally true.
I changed one first name in itbut otherwise totally true and
(31:28):
so it was a totally differentexperience of creating a theater
piece, a totally true story andjust reflected the inner
struggle and the search as wewere talking about and the fight
for being able to have my fileand have and I can't have my
file.
But since you know, writing theplay, we ended up as a theater
(31:50):
company partnering with all ofthese amazing adoptee
organizations and accessorganizations, and it turned out
because the play was so muchabout the right to find yourself
and know who you are.
There was just adoptee rightsbaked into this.
Without me getting up on asoapbox over it, it was just
(32:14):
inherently in the dramaticmaterial.
It's really focused on thesearch, and so we started
partnering with organizationssuch as Access Connecticut and
Access Massachusetts and, morerecently, adoption Mosaic and
the New York Adoptee RightsCoalition and Adoptees United.
When we've done thesepartnerships, there've been
different aims and differentthings, but since we've done the
(32:36):
play, there's been a realmomentum of opening up access to
adult adoptees to obtain theiroriginal birth certificate.
They're in our 14 unrestrictedstates and so while we were
doing all of this work verystrategically in partnership, it
was wonderful because therewere these incredible victories.
(32:56):
So we're always looking topartner with, particularly
coalitions we love partneringwith, but any grassroots, on the
ground organization that isfighting for this in their state
we want to support, and wefound that the show can really
impact people on this visceralway.
We always hope that it hashelped, support and service to
(33:20):
particularly adoptees in termsof adoptee rights.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Suzanne, you've mentioned frequently here now,
in this last little bit ofdialogue, two words came to mind
essence of truth, and then thedesire to be highly connected to
those organizations that arepushing forward some of our
concepts, right the advocacy ofthat, and so I would really like
(33:45):
it if you could share with thelisteners some of your thoughts
and some of the activities thatwere going on or have been going
on over the last couple ofyears along those lines and how
it's influenced potentialcongressional non-adoptees or
non-adoptees in general.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Well, with this play the Good Adoptee, this was like
the first time that I felt likeit was directly impacting and
attracting adoptees.
So that's sort of what happenedfirst.
But then as we did the play andthen specifically did the play
as an advocacy piece, so we didtours in Connecticut, we did a
(34:28):
mini tour in Massachusetts andthen they became virtual
projects as well and we werealso doing it in New York as the
fight for adoptee rights in NewYork was raging.
So all of that kind of happenedat.
You know, at the same time.
But like sort of the more wegot involved with adoptees and
(34:49):
people in the adoption communityas our audience, it then sort
of broadened into bringing theplay to a larger general
population to influence in apositive way the adoptee rights
fights that were going on andthe struggle for equality in
different states.
One such time was in our tourin Connecticut where we had a
(35:15):
senator who was someone who wasrunning actually for senator and
then he got in, thankfully, andhe came to the show and he was
invited and he it really openedhis eyes because he had not
thought about adoption andadoptee rights in that way and
he then got in and he became oneof the senators who was like
(35:37):
the main senator pushing, youknow, sponsoring the bills as
they.
You know this took many years,but he was there fighting
alongside us for a while.
Sometimes you just have thatthing with a play where it can
have a visceral impact.
It transcends all of the noiseof, you know, the rainbows and
(36:01):
unicorns, you know narrative orthe reunion narrative and all of
these things that people arekind of come into it with.
But if they're sitting in atheater with one fabulous actor
because we always have anincredible actor, you know we've
been really lucky to haveamazing performers doing the
show it really just can havethat impact on an audience where
(36:26):
they get it Like you can justget your message across in a way
that you could be screaming ona mountaintop for decades and
you can't get that same messageacross.
So that is the magic of theater.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, I would agree.
I love theater.
I don't think we actuallytalked about this.
I love theater and it is.
One of the benefits of liveperformance is that you are
pulled in a little bit moreemotionally.
Now I can cry on a dime, so Ishould say that to the listeners
.
I can probably.
If you talk another 10 minutesand tell me something that is,
(37:00):
you know, really a heart string,I'm going to be crying.
That's just me, right, and I'veI've accepted that part of me.
But you are absolutely right.
There is something about livetheater and when you're telling
stories like the ones we'retalking about in your story, it
is really hard.
I mean, I've got to believe ifyou don't come out of there a
little bit changed, you're justflat out cold-hearted and maybe
(37:24):
I don't want you advocating forme anyway.
so you know, just yeah, justabsolutely a different
experience.
But what I'm, what I'm likingabout some of the advocacy in
the fine arts area is that it ischanging and so we we are
seeing in our community moreengagement from that type of
(37:49):
medium of expression.
So writing, blogs, memoirs,theater, monologues, music, the
narrative changing in you knowthe Hollywood context in
television and movies as well,and so that that momentum that
(38:11):
you're talking about, it's stillgrowing and it's still changing
and expanding.
So, with that said, I believeyou were highlighting some wins
in advocacy.
So, if you don't mind, when youwere starting and going through
this, what was the status inNew York specifically, and
(38:34):
what's the status now and then?
What do you know about statusesin other areas, other States?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Well in in New York.
When we were starting out, itwas, I mean, new York looked
like a completely hopeless caseand and people had been trying
to chip away at New York forover 40 years.
So and I mean there waswonderful elements that just
(39:03):
came together.
You know, the perfect storm ina good way.
But our friends at NYARC, theNew York Adoptee Rights
Coalition, did somegroundbreaking and incredibly
crucial work.
There's also sort of a nationalgroundswell to help support the
(39:23):
vetoing of a really bad billthat came the session before and
that really focused things in.
But it was sort of against allodds that New York happened,
just, and you would think thatNew York would be at the
forefront of equality for alland rights for anybody.
There were some complicatedstuff that was really in the way
(39:46):
of that.
So New York just celebratedfour years of the record.
The opening, like the openingday, was January 15th 2020.
So we just had the four yearcelebration of records being
open.
And not only that, but theyjust streamlined the process.
Somehow it just someone can gettheir records much quicker than
(40:08):
they could.
I mean, this all happened likeright at the beginning of the
pandemic, like right before thepandemic, so it was really hard
to actually go and get your.
You know it was a wait to getyour original birth certificate.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, and I want to make sure we're kind of clear
you do mean access not only toadoption records, but you really
mean access to original birthcertificate.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
That's exactly what I mean.
It's the original birthcertificate so I always have on
my fantasy, I have my file in myhand, but that is not a reality
yet.
So the fight is focused onoriginal birth certificate and
that is miraculous that this hashappened in New York State and
I think it really has helpedwith momentum in other states.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
So, to your best knowledge, how many states have
adopted pun intended to someright have actually changed
their laws that are allowing fororiginal birth certificate
requests and fulfillment?
Speaker 1 (41:12):
That is, it's 14 states that are right now
unrestricted and in about a yearanother one, but it's that's
unrestricted.
There are other states thathave like restricted access.
So you know, it's just likeyou're sort of more looking at
unrestricted.
So you want, whatever yournon-adopted cohort can go and do
(41:37):
in terms of getting theiroriginal birth certificate, aka
their birth certificate you wantthe adoptee to have the same
right.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, the same level of equality.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
So that's, 14.
Right, yes.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yes and no redaction.
That's really what we'retalking about no redaction on
the material that you're askingfor Now.
This does not solve, for when abirth mother or birth father
are using pseudos, pseudonymnames.
(42:09):
Does not solve for that and itdoesn't overcome if there's no
birth father listed, but it's astart right.
It might jumpstart some otheractivities that you can go and
look through and look for.
And as we all age, myselfincluded, more of federal
(42:29):
records become public anyway.
Records become public anyway.
They're right, as what is it?
Every 10 years, I think, we getmore census data from the you
know 20, 30 years prior.
Well, let's kind of startbringing this together a little
bit and tell me what and how youwant to continue to engage in
(42:50):
the community and what thefuture holds in your mind for
you as the playwright, for thegood adoptee or something next
and bigger.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Well, first of all, I just want to say that just
being able to be in communitywith adoptees in any way is to
me life-changing, like it's itsown thing.
It's its own, it's its ownphenomenon.
That for me, is super healingand lets me feel grounded and
(43:24):
connected and have that sense ofbelonging on a level that is I
don't know if non-adopted peoplehave that same kind of
lightning bolt sort of feeling.
I mean I guess the other sideof the coin, right.
So, like you know, I mean rightnow, in communicating and
having this chat with together,you know we're in our own little
(43:46):
pod of adoptive community andso I feel more myself.
You know you're, you're, you'veinvited me and allowed me to
feel connection with you, tofeel like more myself than I get
to sort of every day.
So just having that adopteecontact and connection is to me
(44:08):
crucial.
So I will seek it outeverywhere, like I have an
amazing adoptee group in NewYork and, you know, sort of
nationally, I love being part ofAdoptees United and Adoption
Mosaic and being in communitythere.
It's just a gift.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
I would agree it is.
It's very humbling to havethose opportunities.
But, more importantly, I do notever feel in any of these
conversations that I have toexplain myself when I make a
comment about search or reunionor struggling with identity or
struggling with emotions thatare hard sometimes for others to
(44:49):
understand, why they can beliterally consistently hovering
at the surface.
Right, those are, those areobviously the massive benefits
of being in community.
You just don't have to explainit, you just don't.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, yeah, and it's, and it's the nod, it's the
knowing nod and you can evenfeel the power of that nod, even
if you don't see the person inthe space between you.
Feel this knowingness, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
I would absolutely agree.
Well, what about the future?
What are you thinking about?
What's up next?
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Well, in terms of the Good Adoptee, we are headed
back to Connecticut for aspecial run of shows over
Mother's Day weekend and we arejust sort of teasing that and
we're going to announce all thedetails soon.
But we're working with our kids, who we've worked with before
(45:45):
and we actually have have did wedid, like a thing at the
Schubert, but online, you know avirtual presentation with them
a couple years ago, and so thisis like very much of a treat to
be able to be live in thetheater and work with them again
.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yeah, well, how do you want to close out today?
We're coming to the end, and isthere anything that I haven't
touched on that's reallyimportant to you in terms of the
communication to the community?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I mean, what's wonderful is that having a
conversation like this brings up, like so many you know,
different ideas and thoughts andthings to explore.
So I love leaving with that andfeeling like, oh you know, like
we could, we could, we couldhave, we could have 20 more
talks and explore 20 more thingsand and that feels great, you
(46:41):
know, because you don't get tofeel that and explore that every
day it really is a huge treat.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, I mean I agree we could.
We could talk for another two,three hours.
I feel that many, many times Ireally do want to say from our
conversation, as we're closingout, the essence of truth.
I really kind of like thatconcept.
So I know from thisconversation what I'm going to
take away and I'm so thankfulfor is just that those two words
(47:13):
that popped into thisconversation, and maybe
exploring that more and helpingutilize something as simple as
those two words to bring others,who are not adoptees, into this
conversation.
It would be very hard.
I think it's a theory.
(47:34):
My theory would be it would behard to argue against.
I just want the essence oftruth.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
I love that.
Yeah, no, it's, it's circlingback to the top of our
conversation.
It's.
It's the essence of truth isyou know sort of what starts
there.
You know that you, you do havean essence of truth.
Even if you don't know certainthings about you, and even if
you're trying to fit in in afamily, there still is something
(48:02):
that that guides you.
That is there If youacknowledge and look for it.
I love the essence of truth,yeah me too Well.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I want to thank you for being on today's show of
truth.
Yeah, me too Well.
I want to thank you for beingon today's show.
It's been a pleasure, and Ileave every guest with this
comment it truly is my honor tohave this opportunity to spend
time with you.
I sometimes think it comesacross as fawning, but it's not
so we're clear, and I don't takethis lightly.
I know sometimes it's hard foradoptees to speak their truth or
(48:35):
to speak their experience, andso for me, I just want to say
thank you so much for coming onthe show.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Thank you so much for having me, and I don't want to
be fawning either, but it is atrue honor.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopted journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadoptingcom.
You know, when you're walking down the street and
you're just like, oh, one ofthese people could be my mother,
like that is terrifying, andjust narrowing down and finding
all of those pieces that'remissing.
Speaker 2 (00:36):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, life identitysearch and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor, suzanne Backner.
Welcome to the show, thank you.
Speaker 1 (00:57):
Lisa Anne, I'm so honored to be here.
Speaker 2 (00:59):
Yeah, we're glad to have you with us and we're going
to go ahead and just kick rightinto the conversation, get
going with who you are, but,more importantly, a little bit
about your adoption story.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Great.
Well, I am a domestic same race, white and Jewish free row baby
scoop heir, adoptee, born,raised and adopted in New York
City.
My pronouns are she, her and Iwas relinquished and adopted
through Louise Wise Services.
Speaker 2 (01:27):
So I don't know if everybody's heard about those
services in the past.
I know we have a lot ofcommonality in our stories, but
I came from Crichton.
I know that there's BethanyServices and so I thought maybe
if we could just take a coupleminutes and give a little bit of
context about those servicesfor others that might be
(01:50):
impacted by that particularbranch of the world.
Speaker 1 (01:53):
Well, louise Wise has an interesting history.
It was the premier Jewishadoption agency in New York City
for years and years and years.
They were located.
They had a spot on the UpperEast Side and that was sort of
where Jewish people looked toadopt back in the baby scoop and
(02:15):
post baby scoop eras actually.
So they closed their doorsaround 2010.
And then they got a little notso great publicity with the
books Identical Strangers andthe movie Three Identical
Strangers, where adoptees whowent through Louise Wise were
(02:36):
secretly separated and studiedin horrific, unethical,
destructive twin studies thatwere conducted with the
cooperation of the agency.
So I'm so glad to be from there.
Speaker 2 (02:51):
Well, I think that it would be good to know you are
not a twin or a triplet, and youare not part of those studies,
you just happen to be, a babythat passed through that
particular center and service.
Speaker 1 (03:04):
Yes, yes, so a very different story, although when I
was doing my search they hadjust moved and so all of the
records from Louise Wise hadgone to Fence Chapin, a
surviving adoption agency in NewYork, and still today they
didn't know if I was part of thetwin studies while I was
(03:26):
searching, because all of thoserecords were all messed up, and
so I went for the better part ofa year thinking that I knew of
adoptees who were sort ofbookending me in time.
So I thought, oh, I am part ofthis era of these horrific twin
studies, so I didn't know thatyou know if I was a twin or not,
(03:47):
until they finally were able totell me.
Speaker 2 (03:50):
I find that interesting, and maybe what we
should do is take a little bitof a step back and talk about
your search and some of theactivities that you engaged in
to find out who you werebiologically Taking another step
back.
Speaker 1 (04:08):
I landed in the household of a wonderful couple,
the Backners, where I had asense of a certain amount of
belonging and we were a verysmall family.
I was an only child adoptee,which I think is a it's.
I feel like we should have ourown support group for being only
children adoptee, but onlychild adoptees.
(04:29):
But and we kind of calledourselves the tripod, because it
was mom, dad, me and we wentthrough a lot of difficulties
with illnesses and stuff when Iwas in high school, all three of
us life-threatening illnesses,all three of us life-threatening
illnesses.
So my desire to find out moreabout myself and to find, you
know, to do a search, to do thatkind of thing, was a little bit
(04:51):
stunted because I felt like, ohmy God, I am belonging here and
kind of hanging on by a threadof survival, you know, in this
situation.
And I felt that it would be aneven bigger betrayal if I went
and searched and that was, youknow, thankfully, to thank,
thanks to, in part, you know,the culture that says, oh, if
(05:13):
you are interested in searching,then you're automatically
betraying your adoptive parents,which does not help anybody.
So I really was like a latesearcher.
I was in my mid-30s when I firstsearched.
Although I do consider so manydifferent activities you know
the inner life of an adoptee,even as a child I consider some
(05:34):
of the things that I used tocontemplate and look into, and
when I used to write stories andall of these things.
If I, you know, look back onall of that, I say I was, oh, I
was searching, I was alwayssearching.
There wasn't a time that Iwasn't searching, and I always
knew that I was adopted.
My parents were very open aboutthat, and so I don't remember
(05:55):
an event of being, you know,having this news broken to me.
Oh, guess what?
You're adopted, you know.
So it was almost likenormalized to you know, aren't,
aren't most kids adopted?
Speaker 2 (06:13):
you know right?
Yeah, I said, everyone like me.
Well, I want to.
I would do want to acknowledgeyou made a couple of statements,
but there's a word you used acouple times already and so I'm
going to circle back on thatwhich is your, your tripod, but
belonging, and I want us toalways hold a spot for how
everyone feels about theiradoption, but also their family
(06:35):
that raised them, and so youhave indicated you felt a
belonging.
You didn't feel, you know,drastically separated from them
still a little bit of searching,but not drastically separated
from them.
Is that a true interpretationof your statement of belonging?
Speaker 1 (06:53):
Yes, and I'm so glad that you are holding that space
for this because I think it's socrucial and just to map that
out a little more.
And to map that out a littlemore and to acknowledge that
having a sense of belonging inyour adoptive family is a place
of great privilege, which I wantto note and be thankful for,
but also that that is notsomething that happens all the
(07:16):
time for adoptees, but justinherently being adopted and
being displaced from my originalfamily and from that ancestral
line into the one that and theones that I feel that sense of
belonging to with my adoptivefamily.
You know, it's kind of that twosides of the coin.
(07:38):
You know where I felt anintense sense of belonging and
safety with my adoptive familyand that almost allowed me to
deny adoption issues and to pushaside the undermining effect of
not knowing where I came fromand not having a connection to
(07:59):
my original first family.
Speaker 2 (08:01):
Yeah, I think that's important.
You can have both sides of yourcoin.
You can have the concept ofbelonging and you can also want
to search, and the reason Ibrought it to the table for our
discussion is there really is aplace for everybody to have
those feelings, and I also wantto hold a spot for those that
have been hurt by this eventrelative to how they were raised
(08:24):
.
So I'm pretty open about my ownexperience and I, you know, I
know I was loved in the best waythat I could be.
I'm also very open about mythoughts and feelings about my
adopted mother.
So you know, we all have adifferent experience and it's
nice to hear when adoptees arealso comfortable acknowledging
(08:44):
that they really did have a goodsense of belonging, despite the
circumstances.
Take us on a part of yoursearch journey and some of the
highlights of what you found outabout yourself, because there's
some parallel about how youwere placed and where you came
from biologically, and I findthat intriguing.
Speaker 1 (09:06):
Well, my parents, my adoptive parents, are an
interfaith couple and when theygot together it was really
frowned upon.
It was really a big deal.
You know their wedding picturesthere's people of the immediate
family wearing black.
It looks like a funeral.
It's unbelievable to me, butthey kind of fooled everyone or
(09:30):
they showed everyone, I shouldsay because they have been
together for a very long timeand when they were adopting they
went to a Unitarian adoptionsituation first and they sort of
said, oh, my mom is Catholic,my dad is Jewish.
And they said, oh, you need tosign away that you're part of
(09:53):
the Unitarian community.
And my dad said I'm Jewish, Ican't do that.
So they then went to LouiseWise where my grandmother was on
the board and actually veryclose friends with Justine
Poehler who ran it, and I thinkthey didn't want to do that
(10:13):
because my grandmother was oneof the people wearing black at
their wedding.
So I don't think they wanted toreally do that necessarily.
And I just want to make itclear that anyone who has seen
Three Identical Strangers mygrandmother was not one of those
people in the back room, youknow, drinking champagne for
getting away with this horribletwin study that did not happen
with her involved.
I think they took extra care tokind of like match me.
(10:36):
So it's unusual for a baby whohas a non-Jewish mother to be
put through a Jewish agency.
And as I discovered and I hadlike a little background on this
, but it wasn't quite accurateas so much of our background
information that's shared cannot be accurate this is accurate
(10:57):
now that I know it my birthfather was studying to be a
rabbi in the Dory but he wasactually Orthodox Jewish and not
always wearing a yarmulke, youknow, and he was also with a
non-Jewish person who heimpregnated.
So he was obviously the LouiseWise connection.
(11:17):
And my first mother wasPresbyterian raised, was
Presbyterian raised and she wastrying to make a family with my
first father and ended upconverting to Judaism and like
reform Judaism.
I always say like MarilynMonroe did for Arthur Miller,
but that worked out better thanin her situation because she was
(11:41):
with an Orthodox man with anOrthodox family and that just
wasn't really going to fly.
So it was kind of like thisweird circumstance of interfaith
coupling on both sides of myhistory that led to me being,
you know, in Louise Weiss in thefirst place and then being, you
know, bought by donation to theagency by, you know, this
(12:01):
interfaith couple.
So it was a strangecircumstance.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
Yeah, I would agree, very unique.
No doubt that was unique.
Do you think there werebenefits in that, just from your
perspective of who you are?
Because if we tag in yourbiology to your adoption family,
there might have been justenough similarities.
Have you ever given that someconsideration that you were
(12:26):
actually raised in context tohow you might have been raised
biologically?
I don't know.
Speaker 1 (12:33):
Absolutely.
I think that's right on target,because I think I mean I said,
oh, I have the privilege ofhaving this belongingness that
happened but I think I also havethe privilege of having like
just a little more I don't know,social engineering going into
the match, which can't alwayshappen doesn't always happen, as
(12:55):
we know but I think that therewas like an extra little twinge
of that that really did supportmy family, me and my parents in
having kind of a good match inmany ways.
Speaker 2 (13:07):
Yeah, I like the word that you use social engineering
.
That's very interesting.
I don't know if I've everthought of some of the
connection of how we are placedas adoptees into homes under
that context, and so I like that.
I mean, I might have to, overtime, think about that
differently and and dig in alittle bit to see how other
(13:30):
adoptees feel about that kind ofa concept.
Speaker 1 (13:32):
Well, I hadn't thought about you know what,
what you're bringing up here,for you know most of my life
until I started searching.
And I started, you know, I wentto Spence Chapin to try to get
my materials, my file, that Ithought I just go into the
agency and say, hey, I'm readyfor my file now and they just
give it to me.
And that's when I sort ofdiscovered all sorts of things
(13:53):
about adult adoptees that I hadno idea about and inequality.
That's a whole other subject.
But basically when I went inand finally said this and they
had just moved, like they hadjust acquired, like they shut
down Louise Wise, ben Chapin,you know, taken charge of all of
the Louise Wise adoptees andpaperwork and all of that.
(14:16):
So when I first said, oh, youknow, I'd like my information,
they said we can't have yourinformation.
But they also they also said,well, gee, guess what we have
have your information.
But they also they also said,well, gee, guess what, we have
lost your information.
So my file that I couldn't evensee by law at that point in New
York State was also like all ofmy my materials were missing and
(14:37):
and as this kind of played out.
And then they found them.
But I thought, perhaps, andmaybe, you know, it's me being
trained as the chosen adoptee,who is so special, you know.
But I did have this weirdconnection with my grandmother
being involved there, et cetera.
But I was like, oh, maybe myfile was in a different spot and
(14:58):
wasn't with all the other files, maybe my file was that drawer
that ended up in the other placewhen they, you know, put all
the files into Spence Chapin,something weird like that.
Because so that that kind ofbolstered my, my social
engineering theory about myadoption.
Speaker 2 (15:14):
Yeah, but I could see the connection, for you know,
for that type of a topic,absolutely let's touch on.
You did find some of yourinformation and we're going to
come back to your adopteesrights topic a little bit later
in this conversation, but let'sget back to you.
Were able at some point in thissearch to validate who your
(15:36):
biological father and motherwere, and you also have made
contact with family members, andso I want to talk a little bit
about your perspective andthoughts around reunion.
Speaker 1 (15:49):
Well, first I want to say that the act of going and
searching, you know, which I hadto really allow myself to do
because I was so stuck on sortof, oh I don't need to do that,
oh I, you know, I'm okay, thingsare okay when I just allowed
(16:16):
myself to really search and notjust, yeah, I've written plays
where I've searched and all ofthis and it's kind of fantasy
searching and I don't get intotrouble for it with real people.
So when I, when I allowedmyself to do that, that just I
mean before finding anything,just the act of going and
searching was like one of themost powerful and empowering and
(16:37):
grounding things I've ever doneand it just somehow reclaimed
this just the circumstances ofbeing an adoptee where sort of
the most crucial decision isjust sort of naturally made by
biological kids who are kept intheir biological families, this
displacement from the one line,the one you know, the line of
(17:00):
ancestry and the original family.
That decision is made and wehave no say in it at all and
we're not even really supportedin dealing with the trauma and
subsequent, hopefully, healingof that decision being made for
us and then we just get stuck,you know, in that situation.
So just going and searching andsaying I'm giving you the green
(17:23):
light to go search and beingable to do that, was just this
tsunami of oh, I'm taking backmy own life, like I am, I am
empowering myself and, as Ifound out, stuff sort of filling
the cup, you know, with like oh, that's me, you know that's
someone I'm connected to, or youknow that's not someone I'm
(17:44):
connected to, because there'sall of those you know, you could
, you know, when you're walkingdown the street and you're just
like, oh, one of these peoplecould be my mother, like that is
terrifying.
And just narrowing down andfinding all of those pieces that
were missing, that I hadn'teven allowed myself to
acknowledge were missing, justcollecting that and I was like
(18:04):
obsessed, as so many people arewhen they do this, but I was
absolutely obsessed.
I became Nancy Drew.
I was like solving this mysteryand I just was writing down
each and every step of it.
You know I made this call atlike 3.28pm, you know, and I was
just every little detail wasmine and it didn't matter that
(18:26):
it led to anything or whatever,but it was such a huge step of
kind of taking back my life fromadoption, from the ill parts of
adoption, the traumatizing andundermining and difficult and
impossible push of adoption.
I was like pushing back and Ifelt like Wonder Woman.
I felt like so empowered, andevery time I got a little peace
(18:50):
and understood oh, that's me andI've made this identity in this
totally fake, false way ofadopted person Suzanne, adopted
person Suzanne Bacner is all ofthese things that I've
constructed and some of them arereal.
Some of them have to do with thecore, inherent core person that
I am, but some of them don't.
(19:12):
And then that influx ofmaterial of like oh, that's me
and I'm going to claim that andthat's me and I'm going to claim
that, and maybe I'm not goingto claim that, but now I have
better understanding.
So every time I went throughthat process I felt like there
was more me and I felt like Icould connect with the people I
(19:33):
loved and have more to sharewith them and more to for them
to see and to really see me.
And that was a whole other, youknow, sort of self-pushed,
self-created sense of belonging.
I mean, that was, those wereall of the wonderful things that
happened when I searched, thathave nothing to do with even
actual reunion yet.
(19:54):
But right.
Speaker 2 (19:55):
You know that's the thought that keeps running
through my mind as you'retalking is your evolution of
your identity and how the personyou were as you were growing up
, who knew which was yourundercurrent to the life story?
But then, as you were growingup, who knew which was your
undercurrent to the life story?
But then, as you started thesearch and picking up
(20:18):
information which I believe youare indicating is critical right
.
Those are critical pieces, evenif they are not useful pieces,
and how that started evolvingyour identity and how you felt
about you, which then allowedyou to give out more.
I really like that perspective.
(20:39):
I don't know if I've thought ofidentity in that way, but I
really do like that perspectiveBecause we are consistently
changing when we're in thisportion of the journey around
search and reunion.
Very nice, very nicely said.
All right, well, let's go aheadand start getting into a little
bit of reunion and you know kindof some of that and tagging it
(21:03):
into your evolving identity thatwe just, you know, kind of
touched upon.
Speaker 1 (21:09):
Reunion was challenging, I mean, and so I
during reunion I felt sounderserved by pop culture and I
mean it's not safe out there,you know, exploitative, without
you know really realizing that.
(21:57):
And they were so they so didnot serve me when I actually
went and was doing that formyself and I thought that I had
kind of gone and said, okay, ifI'm going to do this and I might
find real people, and I mean Ihad to do a big shift.
I always felt like I wanted tofind both of my parents, because
I think that I had that LouiseWise narrative that my birth
(22:20):
father was such a big part of mebeing there, so I would
constantly look at rabbis whowere the right age and say, oh,
could that be my father?
It's just crazy, crazy, crazymaking.
I thought, oh, maybe he's stillin New York and what have you,
I didn't find him in thatanecdotal, weird way of that.
(22:41):
Well, I didn't have to, but Idecided to hire a professional
to help me because I had myfirst mother's maiden name was
Smith and she had changed,changed her name, like the name
that she was out in the worldwith did not match the name that
she had when she gave birth tome.
So it was just like such abeyond me being Nancy Drew, I
(23:04):
finally I finally had to go andhire, search.
I did find my birth father firstand he had passed and I was
very I knew that this could be apossibility because I didn't
search when I was 16.
I knew that this could be apossibility because I didn't
search when I was 16.
So I knew that even if you're16, you could also have lost
someone you don't know.
But I did find, like, the firstperson who I am biologically
related to, that I hadencountered in life, was my
(23:27):
birth uncle, my first uncle, mybirth father's brother, and he
was not incredibly welcoming.
And I think what I was, youknow, in going and preparing for
all of these differentpossibilities like if it's not
going to be an Oprah reunion,then what kind of possibility is
it Then you know you kind ofhave to create all these
(23:49):
scenarios, you know, in thiscontrol freak way of like being
like, oh, I can handle thisbecause I thought about it ahead
of time and I just didn't thinkabout this uncle.
And this uncle had actually been, he was in the Louise Wise
paperwork because he was likewith my birth father and birth
mother when they were having thebaby and she had come from
(24:14):
Virginia to New York to where hewas to have this baby me and I
think she was trying to, youknow, keep me at that point and
it didn't work out because ofthe orthodox thing and several
other factors, and he was likethis figure in this paperwork,
that it was like he was part ofmy little mini Louise Wise
narrative or Spence Chapinnarrative, that he was there and
(24:36):
it's not that I thought hewould be so excited to hear from
me.
I mean, he just I didn't know,but I've somehow and this is a
weird thing, but somehow I was Iwas prepared to have like the
door slammed in my face and becursed out and you know all of
this kind of stuff, but I wasn'tprepared to be handled in this
sort of weird lawyerly way ofsort of sharing some information
(25:00):
but not and just sort ofgetting the door elegantly
gently closed in my face.
I just didn't know what to dowith it.
Speaker 2 (25:07):
Yeah, I think when we were talking previously,
suzanne, we kind of referencedit as the soft rejection, almost
silent rejection, withoutsaying you're rejected, but
saying you're rejected and Idon't know.
I'm with you when going throughthe what if?
Scenarios, because I want allthe control and I overthink.
(25:29):
I don't know if we think ofthat one, we think of all of the
other stuff, like what if theydon't answer the letter?
If you send the letter?
What if they don't answer thecall?
What if they're deceased?
What if I upset their worldbecause I've never told anyone?
What if they think I'm a badperson?
I mean, I know we go throughthose as adoptees and you and I
(25:51):
have talked about that a littlebit.
But yeah, that silent, softrejection and just the skill of
that that you and I talked about, it's kind of phenomenal when
you think about that.
Speaker 1 (26:03):
Yeah, yeah, and I mean he's a family attorney in
Miami and it makes sense becausemy adoptive dad is a lawyer.
I know we have lots of lawyersin all of my branches of family,
so I understand kind of howlawyers work to an extent.
But there was thiscompartmentalization that was so
(26:25):
, so odd, and I mean not so odd,but you know where, somehow in
his writing, because I had thisall in a letter and somehow,
like I was his brother'sdaughter but he was not my uncle
, and you know how does that,how do those two things exist?
And I think that he was reallythe gatekeeper.
(26:46):
And so you know, he didn'tshare with me any of my siblings
I think there are five and hedidn't sort of share anything
about them.
So there was just so manyquestions that came up and he
kind of took it that I wastrying to find my birth mother,
who he knew from back then buthadn't seen since then, and I
(27:07):
really wasn't writing to him forthat.
I, you know, I really want totalk to him and I would never
have found any of this family ifit weren't for the genius of my
searcher.
But you know, my searcher madethat first call to him
unbeknownst to me and without mypermission, and so it's like
she actually spoke to this uncleof mine.
(27:29):
I'm going to claim him, even ifhe doesn't want me.
She actually spoke to him andhave not had that pleasure.
I'll keep it on pleasure and Ihave not had that pleasure.
What's interesting is that mydad, both my parents, have
really evolved from.
Oh, if your child is lookingfor their original family, that
(27:49):
must be a rejection on you oryou know, it has nothing to do
with their identity and needingto know these things and what
have you.
They had the unhappiness ofbeing fed that as they were
growing up, as they were growingup as adoptive parents.
So, you know, we had to like,really work on that together and
they really evolved Probablynot as much in conversation from
(28:12):
conversation with me as seeingmy plays, but you know where it
could be, like third hand almostto them.
But my dad actually offered towrite to my uncle and tell him.
You know how much he and therest of the family were missing
out by not knowing me.
Speaker 2 (28:28):
Well, that would have been sweet to some extent.
Now, did you take him up onthat offer?
Speaker 1 (28:33):
I did not because, honestly, just the fact that he
offered that, I felt sosupported and taken care of by
that.
But I was just like I have tobe the one to try to reach out
if I want to do that myself.
I was just like I'm too much ofa control freak to then, like,
put that in his hands.
(28:54):
It's just, it's not going to begood for me, even if it turns
out well.
Speaker 2 (28:58):
Yeah, I mean that's just crapshoot on the on the
table in Vegas at that pointRight.
I don't know any other analogyto put with that.
I mean it could go anydirection.
Well, I want to.
I want us to move a little bithere.
And you've mentioned twodifferent things, and they're
actually part of you evolvingyour identity and who you are,
(29:22):
and they are tied to your searchand minimal reunion.
And you've touched on adopteerights, the lack thereof, and I
am a playwright For thelisteners.
Let's bring those two conceptstogether adoptee rights,
playwright and tell us how theyconnect you together as a person
(29:45):
.
Speaker 1 (29:45):
Well, I have written about adoption.
They were searching pieces andnot clearly about adoption, but
when I look back at them now.
But when I was eight, I wrote apiece about these three odd
space aliens who were coming toEarth and trying to find their
way home, and it was calledCreatures from an Unknown Planet
(30:08):
.
So if that isn't a tell, Idon't know what is.
Speaker 2 (30:11):
Intriguing for sure.
Speaker 1 (30:22):
Yeah, and they encounter a human child on earth
.
So clearly I got that I was.
You know, I didn't fully, trulybelong.
I started writing and reallydoing a lot of healing and
searching work where I felt safe, exploring issues of adoption
and putting in adoptee themesand all of the stuff in my work
as a playwright.
And then I really, when Istarted searching, I actually
wanted to write a play that wastotally real because I was so
(30:44):
obsessed with.
You know all of the facts andwhen you're doing fictional or
even fantasy type playwritingwork you're not talking about.
Oh, my birth mom's originalname was Smith.
So if you're making it Jones,then you're not capturing.
You know what you're searchingand fighting for.
(31:06):
And I say fighting for to bringin the Adopt Me Rights piece
because as this adult, I waslike shocked to, as I said, to
find out like, oh, I couldn't goand get my file.
How, what?
How is that right?
So I wrote the play the GoodAdoptee, which is totally true.
I changed one first name in itbut otherwise totally true and
(31:28):
so it was a totally differentexperience of creating a theater
piece, a totally true story andjust reflected the inner
struggle and the search as wewere talking about and the fight
for being able to have my fileand have and I can't have my
file.
But since you know, writing theplay, we ended up as a theater
(31:50):
company partnering with all ofthese amazing adoptee
organizations and accessorganizations, and it turned out
because the play was so muchabout the right to find yourself
and know who you are.
There was just adoptee rightsbaked into this.
Without me getting up on asoapbox over it, it was just
(32:14):
inherently in the dramaticmaterial.
It's really focused on thesearch, and so we started
partnering with organizationssuch as Access Connecticut and
Access Massachusetts and, morerecently, adoption Mosaic and
the New York Adoptee RightsCoalition and Adoptees United.
When we've done thesepartnerships, there've been
different aims and differentthings, but since we've done the
(32:36):
play, there's been a realmomentum of opening up access to
adult adoptees to obtain theiroriginal birth certificate.
They're in our 14 unrestrictedstates and so while we were
doing all of this work verystrategically in partnership, it
was wonderful because therewere these incredible victories.
(32:56):
So we're always looking topartner with, particularly
coalitions we love partneringwith, but any grassroots, on the
ground organization that isfighting for this in their state
we want to support, and wefound that the show can really
impact people on this visceralway.
We always hope that it hashelped, support and service to
(33:20):
particularly adoptees in termsof adoptee rights.
Speaker 2 (33:23):
Suzanne, you've mentioned frequently here now,
in this last little bit ofdialogue, two words came to mind
essence of truth, and then thedesire to be highly connected to
those organizations that arepushing forward some of our
concepts, right the advocacy ofthat, and so I would really like
(33:45):
it if you could share with thelisteners some of your thoughts
and some of the activities thatwere going on or have been going
on over the last couple ofyears along those lines and how
it's influenced potentialcongressional non-adoptees or
non-adoptees in general.
Speaker 1 (34:05):
Well, with this play the Good Adoptee, this was like
the first time that I felt likeit was directly impacting and
attracting adoptees.
So that's sort of what happenedfirst.
But then as we did the play andthen specifically did the play
as an advocacy piece, so we didtours in Connecticut, we did a
(34:28):
mini tour in Massachusetts andthen they became virtual
projects as well and we werealso doing it in New York as the
fight for adoptee rights in NewYork was raging.
So all of that kind of happenedat.
You know, at the same time.
But like sort of the more wegot involved with adoptees and
(34:49):
people in the adoption communityas our audience, it then sort
of broadened into bringing theplay to a larger general
population to influence in apositive way the adoptee rights
fights that were going on andthe struggle for equality in
different states.
One such time was in our tourin Connecticut where we had a
(35:15):
senator who was someone who wasrunning actually for senator and
then he got in, thankfully, andhe came to the show and he was
invited and he it really openedhis eyes because he had not
thought about adoption andadoptee rights in that way and
he then got in and he became oneof the senators who was like
(35:37):
the main senator pushing, youknow, sponsoring the bills as
they.
You know this took many years,but he was there fighting
alongside us for a while.
Sometimes you just have thatthing with a play where it can
have a visceral impact.
It transcends all of the noiseof, you know, the rainbows and
(36:01):
unicorns, you know narrative orthe reunion narrative and all of
these things that people arekind of come into it with.
But if they're sitting in atheater with one fabulous actor
because we always have anincredible actor, you know we've
been really lucky to haveamazing performers doing the
show it really just can havethat impact on an audience where
(36:26):
they get it Like you can justget your message across in a way
that you could be screaming ona mountaintop for decades and
you can't get that same messageacross.
So that is the magic of theater.
Speaker 2 (36:36):
Yeah, I would agree.
I love theater.
I don't think we actuallytalked about this.
I love theater and it is.
One of the benefits of liveperformance is that you are
pulled in a little bit moreemotionally.
Now I can cry on a dime, so Ishould say that to the listeners
.
I can probably.
If you talk another 10 minutesand tell me something that is,
(37:00):
you know, really a heart string,I'm going to be crying.
That's just me, right, and I'veI've accepted that part of me.
But you are absolutely right.
There is something about livetheater and when you're telling
stories like the ones we'retalking about in your story, it
is really hard.
I mean, I've got to believe ifyou don't come out of there a
little bit changed, you're justflat out cold-hearted and maybe
(37:24):
I don't want you advocating forme anyway.
so you know, just yeah, justabsolutely a different
experience.
But what I'm, what I'm likingabout some of the advocacy in
the fine arts area is that it ischanging and so we we are
seeing in our community moreengagement from that type of
(37:49):
medium of expression.
So writing, blogs, memoirs,theater, monologues, music, the
narrative changing in you knowthe Hollywood context in
television and movies as well,and so that that momentum that
(38:11):
you're talking about, it's stillgrowing and it's still changing
and expanding.
So, with that said, I believeyou were highlighting some wins
in advocacy.
So, if you don't mind, when youwere starting and going through
this, what was the status inNew York specifically, and
(38:34):
what's the status now and then?
What do you know about statusesin other areas, other States?
Speaker 1 (38:41):
Well in in New York.
When we were starting out, itwas, I mean, new York looked
like a completely hopeless caseand and people had been trying
to chip away at New York forover 40 years.
So and I mean there waswonderful elements that just
(39:03):
came together.
You know, the perfect storm ina good way.
But our friends at NYARC, theNew York Adoptee Rights
Coalition, did somegroundbreaking and incredibly
crucial work.
There's also sort of a nationalgroundswell to help support the
(39:23):
vetoing of a really bad billthat came the session before and
that really focused things in.
But it was sort of against allodds that New York happened,
just, and you would think thatNew York would be at the
forefront of equality for alland rights for anybody.
There were some complicatedstuff that was really in the way
(39:46):
of that.
So New York just celebratedfour years of the record.
The opening, like the openingday, was January 15th 2020.
So we just had the four yearcelebration of records being
open.
And not only that, but theyjust streamlined the process.
Somehow it just someone can gettheir records much quicker than
(40:08):
they could.
I mean, this all happened likeright at the beginning of the
pandemic, like right before thepandemic, so it was really hard
to actually go and get your.
You know it was a wait to getyour original birth certificate.
Speaker 2 (40:21):
Yeah, and I want to make sure we're kind of clear
you do mean access not only toadoption records, but you really
mean access to original birthcertificate.
Speaker 1 (40:31):
That's exactly what I mean.
It's the original birthcertificate so I always have on
my fantasy, I have my file in myhand, but that is not a reality
yet.
So the fight is focused onoriginal birth certificate and
that is miraculous that this hashappened in New York State and
I think it really has helpedwith momentum in other states.
Speaker 2 (40:53):
So, to your best knowledge, how many states have
adopted pun intended to someright have actually changed
their laws that are allowing fororiginal birth certificate
requests and fulfillment?
Speaker 1 (41:12):
That is, it's 14 states that are right now
unrestricted and in about a yearanother one, but it's that's
unrestricted.
There are other states thathave like restricted access.
So you know, it's just likeyou're sort of more looking at
unrestricted.
So you want, whatever yournon-adopted cohort can go and do
(41:37):
in terms of getting theiroriginal birth certificate, aka
their birth certificate you wantthe adoptee to have the same
right.
Speaker 2 (41:45):
Yeah, the same level of equality.
Speaker 1 (41:46):
So that's, 14.
Right, yes.
Speaker 2 (41:48):
Yes and no redaction.
That's really what we'retalking about no redaction on
the material that you're askingfor Now.
This does not solve, for when abirth mother or birth father
are using pseudos, pseudonymnames.
(42:09):
Does not solve for that and itdoesn't overcome if there's no
birth father listed, but it's astart right.
It might jumpstart some otheractivities that you can go and
look through and look for.
And as we all age, myselfincluded, more of federal
(42:29):
records become public anyway.
Records become public anyway.
They're right, as what is it?
Every 10 years, I think, we getmore census data from the you
know 20, 30 years prior.
Well, let's kind of startbringing this together a little
bit and tell me what and how youwant to continue to engage in
(42:50):
the community and what thefuture holds in your mind for
you as the playwright, for thegood adoptee or something next
and bigger.
Speaker 1 (43:02):
Well, first of all, I just want to say that just
being able to be in communitywith adoptees in any way is to
me life-changing, like it's itsown thing.
It's its own, it's its ownphenomenon.
That for me, is super healingand lets me feel grounded and
(43:24):
connected and have that sense ofbelonging on a level that is I
don't know if non-adopted peoplehave that same kind of
lightning bolt sort of feeling.
I mean I guess the other sideof the coin, right.
So, like you know, I mean rightnow, in communicating and
having this chat with together,you know we're in our own little
(43:46):
pod of adoptive community andso I feel more myself.
You know you're, you're, you'veinvited me and allowed me to
feel connection with you, tofeel like more myself than I get
to sort of every day.
So just having that adopteecontact and connection is to me
(44:08):
crucial.
So I will seek it outeverywhere, like I have an
amazing adoptee group in NewYork and, you know, sort of
nationally, I love being part ofAdoptees United and Adoption
Mosaic and being in communitythere.
It's just a gift.
Speaker 2 (44:24):
I would agree it is.
It's very humbling to havethose opportunities.
But, more importantly, I do notever feel in any of these
conversations that I have toexplain myself when I make a
comment about search or reunionor struggling with identity or
struggling with emotions thatare hard sometimes for others to
(44:49):
understand, why they can beliterally consistently hovering
at the surface.
Right, those are, those areobviously the massive benefits
of being in community.
You just don't have to explainit, you just don't.
Speaker 1 (45:03):
Yeah, yeah, and it's, and it's the nod, it's the
knowing nod and you can evenfeel the power of that nod, even
if you don't see the person inthe space between you.
Feel this knowingness, yeah.
Speaker 2 (45:18):
I would absolutely agree.
Well, what about the future?
What are you thinking about?
What's up next?
Speaker 1 (45:25):
Well, in terms of the Good Adoptee, we are headed
back to Connecticut for aspecial run of shows over
Mother's Day weekend and we arejust sort of teasing that and
we're going to announce all thedetails soon.
But we're working with our kids, who we've worked with before
(45:45):
and we actually have have did wedid, like a thing at the
Schubert, but online, you know avirtual presentation with them
a couple years ago, and so thisis like very much of a treat to
be able to be live in thetheater and work with them again
.
Speaker 2 (46:02):
Yeah, well, how do you want to close out today?
We're coming to the end, and isthere anything that I haven't
touched on that's reallyimportant to you in terms of the
communication to the community?
Speaker 1 (46:17):
I mean, what's wonderful is that having a
conversation like this brings up, like so many you know,
different ideas and thoughts andthings to explore.
So I love leaving with that andfeeling like, oh you know, like
we could, we could, we couldhave, we could have 20 more
talks and explore 20 more thingsand and that feels great, you
(46:41):
know, because you don't get tofeel that and explore that every
day it really is a huge treat.
Speaker 2 (46:51):
Yeah, I mean I agree we could.
We could talk for another two,three hours.
I feel that many, many times Ireally do want to say from our
conversation, as we're closingout, the essence of truth.
I really kind of like thatconcept.
So I know from thisconversation what I'm going to
take away and I'm so thankfulfor is just that those two words
(47:13):
that popped into thisconversation, and maybe
exploring that more and helpingutilize something as simple as
those two words to bring others,who are not adoptees, into this
conversation.
It would be very hard.
I think it's a theory.
(47:34):
My theory would be it would behard to argue against.
I just want the essence oftruth.
Speaker 1 (47:40):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (47:40):
Right yeah.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
I love that.
Yeah, no, it's, it's circlingback to the top of our
conversation.
It's.
It's the essence of truth isyou know sort of what starts
there.
You know that you, you do havean essence of truth.
Even if you don't know certainthings about you, and even if
you're trying to fit in in afamily, there still is something
(48:02):
that that guides you.
That is there If youacknowledge and look for it.
I love the essence of truth,yeah me too Well.
Speaker 2 (48:11):
I want to thank you for being on today's show of
truth.
Yeah, me too Well.
I want to thank you for beingon today's show.
It's been a pleasure, and Ileave every guest with this
comment it truly is my honor tohave this opportunity to spend
time with you.
I sometimes think it comesacross as fawning, but it's not
so we're clear, and I don't takethis lightly.
I know sometimes it's hard foradoptees to speak their truth or
(48:35):
to speak their experience, andso for me, I just want to say
thank you so much for coming onthe show.
It's been an absolute pleasure.
Speaker 1 (48:43):
Thank you so much for having me, and I don't want to
be fawning either, but it is atrue honor.
Speaker 2 (48:50):
Thank you for listening to today's episode of
Wandering Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adopted journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadoptingcom.
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