December 19, 2024 • 39 mins
What if reclaiming your true identity felt like swimming back to shore after being adrift in the ocean? Join us for a heartfelt conversation with Melissa Brunetti, host of Mind Your Own Karma, the Adoption Chronicles, as she shares her own transformative journey as a domestic adoptee from the baby scoop era. Melissa opens up about the emotional complexities her birth mother faced and the unwavering support of her adoptive parents when they discovered her hip dysplasia. Through her engaging narrative, we explore life’s unexpected connections and the profound impact of humor and resilience in shaping identity and family dynamics.
Melissa takes us on a voyage of self-discovery, revealing how the struggle for authenticity as adoptees can deeply affect personal relationships. As we discuss swimming back to the 'beach' of our true selves, the conversation delves into the journey of reconnecting with long-buried emotions and preferences, and the ripple effects on significant relationships. We offer encouragement to those on similar paths, highlighting the challenges and triumphs faced while navigating the complexities of identity and authenticity, particularly in relationships where understanding may be limited.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
so, in that journey and then in that healing, where
does the fog fit in.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I was in the fog my whole life.
I really feel like the fog isjust a term for disguising your
authenticity, that it's hidden,and so my whole life I was.
I would say say I was an Oscaraward-winning actress in my own
life and I put the mask on.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, identity, lifesearch and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor.
I'm so excited to have her onthe show.
This is a dual appreciationevent today with Melissa
(01:05):
Brunetti, who is the host ofMind your Own Karma podcast.
It is also labeled the AdoptionChronicles, so I should put all
of that together Mind your OwnKarma, the Adoption Chronicles.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I'm excited welcome to the show, thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
I am too.
It is a pleasure to have youwith us.
We have had a few opportunitiesto speak and really get to know
each other, and so I'm lookingforward to our conversation, for
a lot of different reasons, butwhat I'd really like to do is
have you start out, if you wouldnot mind, and share with the
listeners a little bit aboutyour adoption journey.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So I am a domestic adoptee baby scoop era.
I was born in 1968 in SanFrancisco.
My birth mother was 19 and shewas a college student.
My father was getting ready togo to Vietnam and so she became
(02:06):
pregnant and during thepregnancy he started to pull
back and kind of started denyingyou know, was this my, really
my child?
And questioning her, and hewent off to boot camp.
And in the meantime, when mymother was six months pregnant,
her mother passed away and herfather was not a supportive
(02:31):
person at all.
In fact, I think before I waseven born it hadn't even been
three months he remarriedsomebody else and so he's like
you are on your own.
And so she didn't have a jobbecause she was a college
student.
And so when I was born, it tookher a while to actually sign
adoption papers because she wastrying to figure out a way to
(02:52):
keep me without any support.
So finally, the adoption agencyit was about two months I was
probably about two months old.
They finally said you need todecide.
She's getting older, you knowwe have to place her.
So she signed the papersbecause she couldn't figure out
a way to keep me and, funnyenough, I ended up in Fremont,
(03:12):
which is very close to SanFrancisco.
You don't know, my birth fatherwas from Hayward, so we were
all kind of like in the samearea and didn't know it.
Well, actually I got to takethat back.
I just found out that my birthmother worked as a social
services person.
I think she had finally got hermaster's and she said she did
(03:32):
that so that she could spy on meand find out where I was at.
So my birth mother did knowwhere I was at but never
interfered that I ever heard ofor knew of.
But she did kind of keep tabson me through her job.
Another kind of funny thing isthe day after my adoptive
parents got me, they took me toa doctor's appointment and found
(03:53):
out that I had bilateral hipdysplasia, which was not
revealed to them beforehand.
And you know, they were toldthat I was a healthy baby.
And my mom, my adoptive mom,called the agency and she said I
just want to let you know thatyou know she's got hip dysplasia
and she's going to needsurgeries and casts and you know
all this stuff for like a year.
They told her basically well,if you still have your receipt
(04:16):
you can bring back to a new oneand my mom was like, no, we're
keeping her.
You know, I just want to letyou know that that's what was
going on.
And my adoptive mom's spin onthat was that the doctor
obviously knew, because, I mean,anyone that's had a baby knows
doctors check the hips, that'sjust one of the things they do,
right?
So she thinks that he knew butdidn't want to say, because then
(04:38):
I would have been on thediscount shelf, you know, at the
back of the store because I wasdamaged, and so she thinks he
kept it a secret on purpose, sothat I would get placed.
And my mom's you know, myparents were great.
My dad had a great job, hadgood insurance, thank goodness,
and so you know that all workedout.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I'm going to hit pause for just a minute and I
want to just align something.
I know, I know you were kind ofjoking about it and I find it
really heartwarming that you cangiggle and but I also know it
has a serious note for someonewho's telling those types of
things about their story.
(05:18):
How does it make you feel whenyou're talking about those
things about yourself in thecontext of humor?
Is my like?
Is it coming out as like kindof my protection mechanism?
It's coming out as kind of.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I kind of feel like it's kind of an unbelievable
situation.
Yeah, you know, I always kindof say I feel like the cabbage
patch doll on the shelf you know, and that you know the adopters
come in and kind of go shoppingand if you don't have blue eyes
and blonde hair, you know Idon't want that Cabbage Patch
doll because that one doesn'tlook like us or it's not.
(05:54):
You know what I want.
I think the laughing is more ofjust an unbelievable feeling
like this really happens.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
You know this really happens.
Yeah, no, this really happens.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I think that's important sometimes for us to
acknowledge and talk about,because that is exactly what it
is.
It's.
It's not like we're making funof ourselves or anyone else.
It is truly the context of Ireally probably can't make this
up Like this is there are thingsabout our journey and as you
continue with yours, there arethings about our journey and as
you continue with yours.
We can't make these things upand we are living proof.
(06:28):
They happen to people and so Ijust always am very sensitive to
just the context of our bodylanguage and our emotional
expressions, because they cancome off very differently to
different people.
And yeah, we can't make it up,and sometimes you just have to
laugh because you know what elsewould you do?
(06:49):
Cry Every time you tell thisstory.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's probably not what we really want either yeah
it's just, it's so unbelievablethat I just chuckle like it's
like this really happens, youknow.
And to really think that Ireally would have been on the
you know markdown discount, youknow, in the back of the store
aisle, you know the chip dish orwhatever you want to call it,
like that would have been me andwho knows if I would have even
(07:14):
been adopted.
You know, we taught, we laughabout winning.
You know adoptees laugh about Iwon the lottery, I got great
parents and I did, I got greatparents.
We all know that that's notalways the case, but those are
other things that we laugh about.
And I like on TikTok right now,everyone's like making those
videos where it says I'm adopted, you know, I don't, I don't
(07:37):
worry that I'm dating my brother, I'm adopted, I don't.
And those videos that I kind oflaugh when I see those cause I
think my gosh, we could totallymake one of those videos about
all the things people don'tthink about being adopted.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I agree, I 100 percent agree.
Well, let's pick back up.
You had great parents.
You had a father who had afantastic job that allowed for
them to not return you.
That just sounds so awful.
I mean, it really does Pick upfrom.
They were you know, they wereable to give you everything that
(08:11):
you needed around your care.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I mean, I really did.
I didn't really want foranything.
My family they never bring upthat I'm adopted.
I never feel like I'm adoptedin my family.
I never have.
If I bring it up, they're kindof looking at me like why is
that?
Why are you even sayinganything about that?
Like you know, they don't.
I feel Italian, they're ahundred percent Italian and I
(08:36):
feel more Italian than Danish,german, scottish, than what I
really am.
I don't really relate that'sanother funny thing.
I don't relate to thosebiological ties at all.
I really just feel like I'mItalian.
I just feel so comfortable, youknow, in that environment and
with my family.
But at the same time I was likethe good kid.
I had one brother growing up.
(08:58):
He was not adopted, he wasbiological.
They had him first.
He was almost five years olderthan me and they adopted because
my mom was told medically notto have any more kids.
So that's why.
And they wanted a girl.
So the only way to ensure thatwas to adopt.
So that's how I got to be intheir family.
But you know, growing up I wasthe good kid.
(09:18):
I remember always being scaredand I didn't know why.
You know, going out in public.
The neighbor would come overand knock on the door and he was
, you know.
He thought he was being funnyand he would say I'm going to
take you home and I waspetrified that he was going to
take me away from my family.
You know, didn't know why I wasreacting that way.
(09:39):
I was probably like three and Iremember that being terrified
but always kind of scaredgrowing up.
And then I got into my teenageyears.
I didn't date very much.
I was scared to date people.
I just kind of didn't want toget close to anybody.
You know, that's kind of whatit felt like, didn't want to
(09:59):
reveal myself to anyone.
So I didn't date till I wasprobably around 19.
And I met my soon to be husbandat that time and I was kind of
call him a casualty of adoptionbecause I didn't even know who I
was.
So how could I show him who Iwas?
So I gave him a false sense ofwho I was, got married at like
21, had kids, you know, went tochurch, had the you know white
(10:22):
picket fence and the whole deal.
About 10 years in I was so, so,so unhappy, so unhappy, and that
kind of continued.
We stayed married till 22 years.
And so I carried on for thenext 12 years trying to make it
work, trying to make it work andjust got increasingly more
(10:55):
miserable.
The house when nobody was home,because I had this
uncontrollable, uncontrollableurge to go to the kitchen drawer
and pull out a knife and juststab myself.
So I kept walking the house andjust like, talking to myself
and just waiting for somebody tocome home, going to the doctor.
(11:15):
Thousands of tests, nothing'scoming up, everything's fine.
I'll just put you on anxietymedication and depression
medication.
So they did that.
But I was like that's not it,that is not what's going on here
, there's something else goingon.
And I remember telling my ex Isaid I literally feel like I'm
dying.
I feel like I'm dying from theinside out and they're not going
(11:38):
to know what's wrong with meuntil they do my autopsy.
I said that I'm dying and itwas such a helpless feeling,
like so.
Such a helpless feeling Causethat was not my personality,
having anxiety and things likethat.
It was just so foreign.
But you know, my body wasscreaming like you have trauma,
you're not dealing with it, youknow.
(11:58):
But I didn't, I didn't want togive up the facade of like what
we had going on, that everybodyelse from the outside looking in
.
So I ended up just withdrawing,a lot Like I didn't talk to my
parents.
They thought I was mad at them.
I withdrew from everything,everybody, because I could feel
like my exterior was going tocrack and people were going to
(12:19):
start to see something was wrong.
And if I didn't even know whatwas wrong, was I supposed to
tell them?
From the outside, everythingwas perfect.
You know, I had everything.
I then became like 40 at thistime and I just couldn't do it
anymore.
I could not do it another dayand I remember having this
vision of me like floating on afloaty out in the ocean and I
(12:40):
remember like just laying there,you know sun's on you, you're
feeling great, floating along,and then all of a sudden I like
look, and I'm so far away fromthe beach.
If I don't start swimming backright this moment, I'm not going
to make it back there.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I am going to go out.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I'm going to be drawn out into the ocean, and what I
call the beach that was me, thatwas my authentic self was the
beach.
So I said I have to startswimming back to myself,
whatever that means, I have tostart swimming back.
And so I did, little by little,and the way I did that was kind
of just feeling into my body,which I never, ever did.
(13:17):
I mean, adoptees don't want tofeel into your bodies, but I had
to.
And so I started little bylittle with the little things.
You know, how did I feel when Iread a book?
How did I feel when I went fora cup of coffee or when, you
know, spent time with friends?
Did that feel good?
You know?
Because I didn't know.
I didn't know even what I liked.
(13:38):
I didn't even know what myfavorite food was, I didn't even
know what my favorite color was.
I had no clue.
I just did what everybody elsethought I should be doing, never
consulted myself growing up,never, ever.
So I started doing that and justkind of feeling my way back,
little by little.
And I've been doing that nowfor almost you know what 15
(14:01):
years, 16 years now, and stilldoing that, because I feel like
we still evolve and change and,as adoptees, more things come up
, feel like we dealt withsomething, and then another
something comes up or somethingtriggers something and we're
like, okay, now I need to lookat that and I just see each
trigger as a treasure really.
(14:22):
And I started looking at itlike that because they really
are, they really are treasures,they're, they're our feelings,
are trying to tell us somethingand a lot of times, even if it
doesn't feel good, it's justkind of like that warning light
in your car Look at me, there'ssomething that we need to deal
with so that you can become evenmore authentic and have even
more of a creative andfulfilling life.
(14:43):
Once you kind of start thatprocess, more things kind of
fall into place and fall intoyour lap for you to kind of look
at and be curious about.
So that's kind of how I startedon my healing journey from
adoption.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Well, you had a lot in that dialogue and I want to
back up just a little bit.
Well, you had a lot in thatdialogue and I want to back up
just a little bit.
So you mentioned kind of at thebeginning that your now
ex-husband was a casualty ofadoption.
Is that because you didn't knowyour authentic self and so, by
not knowing your authentic self,you didn't know how to be in
(15:17):
the relationship?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I'm trying to make the connection there just for a
couple minutes because it was, Ithink, an important piece.
And so I really showed him afalse sense of who I was for our
whole entire marriage, prettymuch until the end.
The other casualties were mykids, because I did the same
with them, especially my son.
We were in the church quite abit and he was very much into
(15:53):
you don't get divorced.
And so when that happened itreally crushed him.
He was like 18 at the time.
I remember thinking I had totake responsibility for that
part because I showed him afalse mom and so I had to kind
of slowly just be authentic andhope that he kind of came around
and saw that I was happier anda better mom because of being
(16:13):
more authentic.
And I have to say, what is henow?
He's 31, I think, yeah, he's 31.
And it's still strained.
It's still strained.
We see each other, you know, onholidays and stuff.
I don't think it'll ever goback to the way it was and
that's just part of theconsequences of me not living
authentically.
You know, from the beginning Ihave to take responsibility for
(16:34):
that.
I wish he had a littlecompassion, but he doesn't
understand the adoption.
You know the whole part of howthat plays into anything, so
yeah, so I wish he had a littlemore compassion for that.
I have to meet him where he'sat and take responsibility for
my part in that.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, and you know that's admirable in the context
of you didn't even know, andit's really hard, I think, for
non-adoptees or anyone adjacentto us to really understand.
I didn't know that wasn't myauthentic self.
I probably had hints about it.
Yeah Right, things were poppingup throughout the entire
(17:13):
journey, but I really didn'tknow until this point in time.
And so yours is the metaphor ofbeing out in the ocean and
being too far away to get backto you and you're the beach, and
I think that was a beautifulmetaphor of really kind of being
out there yet not connected andneeding to get back to the
(17:37):
person that you are.
It takes a long time.
Not all adoptees are going toget to that spot at all, and it
almost breaks my heart I don'tknow how you feel to know that
there are people that aren'tgoing to be in that spot.
Look at what you said about youand what we know about myself as
(17:57):
well.
It didn't happen at my teenageyears.
It didn't happen at the 20th,30th, somewhere in that 40, 50
range for me.
And yeah, it's just so powerfulto hear other adoptees say I
didn't find my authentic selffor quite some time.
(18:17):
I feel that's encouraging forother adoptees that are still
trying to figure out who theyare and how this does affect
identity.
I want to tap a little bit intoidentity, because you talked
about being the good daughter.
Good wife is what I picked upon that the perfect picture,
(18:37):
family, all of the things thatpeople project regardless of
adoption.
But tell me what your thoughtsare on the impact of adoption to
those social norms as well.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
It's a tough one, I mean as far as being the good
child.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, yeah know it's tough because we don't.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
We can only do hindsight but like, um, I had to
, like, I said I had to do whatwas expected and whatever was
next.
You know especially like what Iwas saying when I got married.
It was like you date for acouple years and then you get
married and then you wait acouple years and then you have a
kid.
And then you wait a coupleyears and you have another kid.
And I did it all right you waita couple of years and then you
have a kid.
And then you wait a couple ofyears and you have another kid.
(19:21):
And I did it all right.
You know I was doing everythingright.
And you go to church and youjoin the choir and you're, you
know your kids go to privateschool and everything's fine and
dandy and it's and it's notfine and dandy, you know it's
not.
And so I feel like those socialnorms are huge.
There's a huge pressure becausewhen I finally did decide to
choose myself, which meant I hadto leave my husband at the time
(19:43):
behind I you know I I'm nottaking all the blame for that
there were some things, you know, that he had part in as far as,
like the church goes, which wasa huge part of our lives.
I had to be cut out from thatand going.
My kids were still going toschool at the time and I
remember driving up to theschool and there was always a
(20:04):
teacher out front watching thekids get out of the cars and
stuff and the teachers, whenthey saw my car, they would turn
their back to the car so theywouldn't have to even like say
hi to me and that feeling of notbelonging, you know, without
again, knowing the story ofreally what's going on.
(20:25):
It just kind of replayed thatwhole, you know, kind of
reinforced, that abandonment,not belonging, feeling like
you're not, you don't fit in,kind of just reinforced all that
for me.
Reinforced all that for me.
But because I was working onmyself at the time, it almost
(20:45):
propelled me forward to findingmyself even more Like.
I use that as a catalyst to,you know, get, still, get back
to myself.
So I, I used my, like I said,my, my trauma and my triggers as
a treasure.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, I really like that concept of treasure as well
.
It allows you to find the goodin the buried.
I think it's interesting as youwere telling the story of the
teachers that turned their back.
What a horrific thing to do toanyone period, but then to do
that to someone that you don'tknow the journey just really my
(21:22):
empathy for you climbed right.
I was just feeling it comingacross.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We've had the conversation about having
compassion for, you know, notthe birth mothers and hearing
their stories, and I think I waslistening to you with Julie and
you were talking about a bookthat you read.
That was just on time and itwas a birth mother story.
Cahill was the last name orsomething.
(21:48):
Yep, candace.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Cahill, goodbye again .
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So I had kind of a similar experience with
Catherine Vogley with her book INeed to Tell you and, oh my God
, knowing those story, hearingthose stories is just so
emotional and I had so muchcompassion and it gained.
I gained so much compassion formy birth mother and what she
must've gone through, the traumathat she went through, all
(22:14):
those things, amazed at howtheir stories changed me and I
think every adoptee should readthose books, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I have not read the one that you mentioned and I
don't know if you've read theone I mentioned yet.
Either way, I will plug themboth as equals, because any
birth mother who's willing towrite pen to paper gets my vote.
And I would say we were talkingabout the treasures and the
triggers, and the triggers aretreasures.
(22:49):
That moment in time I've saidit several times, I'll say it
every time again was one of thebiggest gifts I could have been
given.
And the moment that I read thatbook, it really was another one
of many steps to me making aturn for what could have been
(23:11):
very dire situation.
Had it gone on much longer,relative to my mindset, if it
had not been for thatperspective, I finally felt like
oh, I get it, that's what wasimportant to me, right, I could
just so understand.
It created a bond.
It just really created anotherbond of understanding.
(23:35):
So I'm with you.
I don't know Got to give, we'vegot to, I don't know how to say
it.
I hope that, as the communitycontinues to grow, we can find
the right venues, the rightmethodologies and the right
humanity to take what we hearand grow from it.
(23:58):
We don't all have to grow atthe same rate, but just grow or
just leave room.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I mean, everyone's journey is different, so what
can we do now to help make itbetter for those that are coming
up?
And I think for me and you,it's getting the word out about
the truth about adoption and thethings that really can happen
and do happen.
I think there's room foreverybody and their stories and
even if I don't agree with you,it doesn't mean I can't hold
(24:26):
space for you and still say I'mso sorry that that was your
experience and I'm sure I get ashaving a positive, you know
adoption experience.
A lot of times I get thebacklash of well, you don't get
a voice because you don't have aclue what we all went through
over here, and it's like I stillhave relinquishment trauma.
It might not be like yours inyour face, but I still had it
(24:50):
and in a way, because I had sucha good upbringing I didn't
realize it till a lot later andI had to almost feel like I was
dying to figure it out.
But I think we need to havemore compassion for each other.
We've all been told thenarrative.
Every one of us has been toldthe story.
We've been told we're lucky.
The birth mother's been toldshe was doing the right thing.
(25:11):
The adoptive parents are toldyou're saving a child, you're
giving them a home.
So we've all been.
We all bought into the storiesthat we've been told.
You know the Disneyland story,and so it's time to educate the
world.
It's really just time to tellour stories and educate people.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Sharing our stories, putting ourselves in a public
spotlight along with others.
There are a large number ofpodcasters.
It seems to be growingexponentially.
I love it.
I don't know about you, but Ilove it, and the reason I love
it is today, before you, and Idecided to get on, get on mic
(25:49):
here.
I did a little bit more digging.
I thought, you know, I shouldlook to see how much crossover
we have between the two of us.
The crossover of guests is sominimal.
It isn't even scratching thesurface, like if someone were to
say, oh, I heard them onWandering Tree and I heard them
(26:09):
over on Haley Radge's AdopteesOn.
Or Damon Davis's who Am IReally?
Or yours Mind, your Own, karma,the Adoption Chronicles or, you
know, the Making of Me podcastwith Sarah and Louise.
The crossover is so minimalthat that just reinforces for
(26:29):
myself.
There is absolutely enoughspace for everybody.
We cannot cover every person.
No handful of anyone can dothat.
I also would like to tap intoanother comment that you made,
which is I had a good childhoodand adoption.
(26:51):
I think it's okay to say thatand I hope we allow people to
say that more often.
What also makes it okay to saythat is for the first 30 minutes
of our conversation here orthereabouts.
You've been pretty honest aboutyour trauma too right, it
didn't isolate you from stillbeing affected by adoption, and
(27:13):
I wonder if that's where we gethung up sometimes in community
about the bad guys versus thegood guys.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I think a lot of people.
When we're triggered, that'sjust a part of you that's
wanting your attention and wereact from those triggered spots
, those triggered places.
That that's where the trauma isat, and you can choose how
you're going to react.
Um, in that moment and I reallyhad to learn and this was super
(27:45):
hard to do but instead ofgetting angry and triggered when
I felt that I would get curious, I would look inwards instead
of outwards.
You know, instead of pointingfingers, I would look at myself
and say why am I feeling thisway?
What is it about this situationor what this person said to me
that is making me feel this way?
It's not them, it's me.
So if you can just be a littlebit curious when you feel that
(28:08):
anger or anything that's that'scoming up and making you feel
uncomfortable, if you could juststop and choose how you react
and choose to be a littlecurious, you'll be surprised at
what you can discover aboutyourself and heal parts of
yourself by doing that.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, you've mentioned healing a few
different times, and so I'd liketo hear what is your definition
of healed or healing?
Is it an end point or a?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
journey on to itself.
Yeah, it's definitely a journey.
It's always a journey.
I wish it was a destination,but I don't see that happening.
At the same time, I've learnedto love the journey, even though
there's bumps in the road, andyou know things that come up and
things.
Every opportunity is somethingthat's going to get me back to
(29:02):
my authenticity, my essence, mycentral self.
Nothing's going to come up inmy journey that I'm not going to
learn from.
I'm going to learn from all ofit, especially if it's hard.
I'm not going through this shitand get nothing out of it, and
if I can help someone else alongthe way, that's the better for
it.
You know, that's how I'velearned to look at it.
(29:22):
Instead of being afraid ofchange, people are so afraid of
change in the unknown they justwant to stay.
So you want to stay and wallowin whatever you're wallowing in.
I just have learned that I'drather have a little bit of
discomfort in the learning thanhave long-term suffering.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, that's nice.
So in that journey and then inthat healing, where does the fog
fit in?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I was in the fog my whole life.
I really feel like the fog isjust a term for disguising your
authenticity, that it's hidden,and so my whole life I would say
.
I was an Oscar award winningactress in my own life and I put
the mask on and played the part, did everything right, what I
thought was right.
(30:08):
So coming out of the fog wasjust finally, it was a lot of
things.
It wasn't just adoption traumaand I think I didn't know even
when I was coming out of the fogthat that's what I was doing.
I just needed to get back tomyself and in that process I
learned that adoption was partof that, and that wasn't until
probably in the last five yearsor so that I was able to
(30:31):
recognize it and claim that,because you're not supposed to
talk about that stuff.
We don't talk about that stuff.
So I was able to feel thefreedom to do that and that was
huge.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah, it's interesting, having interviewed
several adoptees both of us agood number and those are the
ones that hit the air.
We're not even talking aboutconversations that don't hit the
air.
But, with that said, what I'mfinding interesting?
Fog has a lot of differentmeanings for a lot of different
(31:06):
adoptees as well, and I likethat.
It's okay for that.
You just described it as partof the journey and how you've
been journeying through comingout, and I look at it very
differently.
I had an instant moment likethis is enough, and so I speak
(31:27):
openly about that moment and Idon't ever want to not speak
openly about it.
I don't intend to speak aboutit to hurt the person that
actually, you know, created theinstantaneous moment, but by not
speaking about it, I'm nevergoing to be able to get beyond
it or help someone elseacknowledge oh, I could have any
(31:51):
definition of fog and mydiscovery moment can happen for
any reason.
There's no set formula and Ithink that's really important as
well to share.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, definitely, yep , and there's room for all of us
.
You know, and and who knowswhat, like you said, who knows
what triggers each one of us?
I almost had to feel like I wasdying to before I mean, I was,
I was holding on, I was holdingon to the facade.
I didn't want to disappointanybody.
I did not want to disappointanybody and I knew that it would
(32:29):
look like I was coming out ofleft field and I didn't even
really understand why.
I just knew I had to.
And, like I said so, it wasn'tin that moment that I like made
that correlation that it wasadoption.
You know it was, it was rolledin there, it was rolled up in
there, but I had to unravel someof it to finally realize that
the role that it did play,because you know, having a good
(32:50):
adoption, you feel like youdon't really have any grounds to
say that I had trauma.
You know, I feel like I didn'thave permission to say that and
the community sometimes kind ofreinforces that for me.
But I know that I do.
I get that they're justreacting from from their traumas
.
So I don't take it personal.
We're all on different journeysand there's, like you said,
there's room for all of us andthere's compassion for all of us
(33:12):
.
We need to have compassion foreach other.
Even if we don't agree, itdoesn't matter.
You can still have compassionfor the other person and what
they're going through.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I like to the aspects oflearning and continuing to heal.
So there are some things you'redoing that help along with just
talking.
That's just one aspect.
Help along with just talking,that's just one aspect.
Podcasting is one aspect.
What are some other things thatyou are doing or placing into
(33:44):
your toolbox to continue to growinto your authentic self and
heal.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Most recently I got certified in Sematic Mindful
Guided Imagery, so it's asomatic therapy similar to
internal family systems, so kindof similar to that.
But it's an upcoming somatictherapy that uses kind of a
light, hypnosis, meditation andguided imagery to tap into your
subconscious mind and reallycreate whatever it is that you
(34:09):
want to create.
And I've been practicing thisfor almost a year now and I've
seen so much healing in theadoptee community from adoption
trauma because I know a lot ofpeople don't feel like they can
heal from adoption trauma and Imean I've seen it and I've
experienced it myself.
So it's a pretty easy and gentleand quick therapy and I feel
like you know when you do, whenyou do cognitive therapy and
(34:32):
talk therapy, that's great.
But I have so many clients comeand say there's still something
left, there's a little root ofsomething and I can't get to it
with cognitive talk therapy andso going inward and kind of
following the body and what yourbody's trying to tell you seems
to kind of do the trick that'slike kind of the missing piece
to the puzzle is anothercombination, another.
You know number to the trick.
(34:52):
That's like kind of the missingpiece to the puzzle is another
combination, another you knownumber to the combination.
I think everybody's healingcombinations different.
It's another thing in thetoolbox that you can try if you
still feel stuck after tryingsome of the other therapies.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That analogy of a combination and no two people
are the same.
I do like putting new thingsinto the toolbox.
One of the great things aboutour relationship is I was a
guest on your podcast.
I loved every minute of it.
I shared very openly my storyabout the abyss.
It is something that I'mfeeling very passionate about
(35:28):
here in 2024.
I feel it because I needed morethings in my toolbox.
Not every person can affordtherapy first of all, so I
appreciate that there are thoseoptions, such as the one that
you just spoke of for adoptees,because, again, you're right,
the combination for us it's notall the same.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Not at all.
Yeah, yeah, keep searching,keep being curious.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, absolutely, and I love that curiosity thing.
It kind of is reminding me ofCurious George the book, the
movies, the right, and now we'vejust if well, we've already
divulged.
We're old ladies in somepeople's context, so I love the
fact that I'm my age and I thinkit's interesting how that plays
a part in the combination aswell.
(36:19):
So, melissa, as we're gettingready to transition into closing
out, we've spent quite a bit oftime in today's conversation
talking about the adopteecommunity, all of the variations
of conversation that are goingon in that platform, in that
area, in that space.
We've referenced space quite abit.
(36:41):
We've talked about all of thedifferent players adoptees,
birth parents, adoptive parents,therapists, therapist what do
you think is?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
the best mindset as it relates to connecting to the
adoptee community.
Number one we've talked about alot compassion for each other,
trying to understand where eachof us have come from and what
stories we've been told.
I think for the most part,people operate from a space
where we're not trying to hurteach other.
That inevitably happens.
I mean, you try to be the bestparent and you still, your kid's
still going to have trauma.
(37:19):
I don't care if you're adoptedor not.
Knowing that and not takingthings so personal, that's huge.
I really think the key isunderstanding each other,
letting each other have our ownstories and our own opinions
about those stories, and notfeeling like if you don't
believe the way I believe, thenwe can't be friends.
You know, we're not going to getanywhere if we have that kind
(37:41):
of attitude.
We're not going to be able toeducate the world if we have
that attitude.
So what change do you want tosee in the community and what
are you doing to make thathappen?
Is your attitude right nowhelping that or is it hindering
that?
Be the change you want to seein the world, I agree.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So let's end today with a little plug for your
podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
So it is mind your own karma.
I have a website mind your ownkarmacom.
If you want to get in touchwith me.
My email is mindyourownkarma atgmailcom.
If you are looking for somatictherapy, my website is
somatichealingjourneyscom if youwant to know more about that.
And then I'm on Facebook andInstagram as well, under
(38:23):
mindyourownkarma.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Fantastic.
Well, it has been a blessing tohave you on the show.
I appreciate your friendshipand the connection that we have
created.
I appreciate your friendshipand the connection that we have
created.
It is always a joy to havethose in your back pocket,
people that you can call up andgo.
I just need to talk thisthrough and you're definitely
one of those.
You are always welcome here andthank you for being with us
(38:45):
today.
Thanks so much, lisa Ann.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
so, in that journey and then in that healing, where
does the fog fit in.
Speaker 2 (00:12):
I was in the fog my whole life.
I really feel like the fog isjust a term for disguising your
authenticity, that it's hidden,and so my whole life I was.
I would say say I was an Oscaraward-winning actress in my own
life and I put the mask on.
Speaker 1 (00:39):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann.
We are an experience-based showfocused on sharing the journey
of adoption, identity, lifesearch and reunion.
Let's begin today'sconversation with our guest of
honor.
I'm so excited to have her onthe show.
This is a dual appreciationevent today with Melissa
(01:05):
Brunetti, who is the host ofMind your Own Karma podcast.
It is also labeled the AdoptionChronicles, so I should put all
of that together Mind your OwnKarma, the Adoption Chronicles.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
Thank you, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1 (01:23):
I'm excited welcome to the show, thank you.
Thanks for having me.
I'm excited.
I am too.
It is a pleasure to have youwith us.
We have had a few opportunitiesto speak and really get to know
each other, and so I'm lookingforward to our conversation, for
a lot of different reasons, butwhat I'd really like to do is
have you start out, if you wouldnot mind, and share with the
listeners a little bit aboutyour adoption journey.
Speaker 2 (01:46):
So I am a domestic adoptee baby scoop era.
I was born in 1968 in SanFrancisco.
My birth mother was 19 and shewas a college student.
My father was getting ready togo to Vietnam and so she became
(02:06):
pregnant and during thepregnancy he started to pull
back and kind of started denyingyou know, was this my, really
my child?
And questioning her, and hewent off to boot camp.
And in the meantime, when mymother was six months pregnant,
her mother passed away and herfather was not a supportive
(02:31):
person at all.
In fact, I think before I waseven born it hadn't even been
three months he remarriedsomebody else and so he's like
you are on your own.
And so she didn't have a jobbecause she was a college
student.
And so when I was born, it tookher a while to actually sign
adoption papers because she wastrying to figure out a way to
(02:52):
keep me without any support.
So finally, the adoption agencyit was about two months I was
probably about two months old.
They finally said you need todecide.
She's getting older, you knowwe have to place her.
So she signed the papersbecause she couldn't figure out
a way to keep me and, funnyenough, I ended up in Fremont,
(03:12):
which is very close to SanFrancisco.
You don't know, my birth fatherwas from Hayward, so we were
all kind of like in the samearea and didn't know it.
Well, actually I got to takethat back.
I just found out that my birthmother worked as a social
services person.
I think she had finally got hermaster's and she said she did
(03:32):
that so that she could spy on meand find out where I was at.
So my birth mother did knowwhere I was at but never
interfered that I ever heard ofor knew of.
But she did kind of keep tabson me through her job.
Another kind of funny thing isthe day after my adoptive
parents got me, they took me toa doctor's appointment and found
(03:53):
out that I had bilateral hipdysplasia, which was not
revealed to them beforehand.
And you know, they were toldthat I was a healthy baby.
And my mom, my adoptive mom,called the agency and she said I
just want to let you know thatyou know she's got hip dysplasia
and she's going to needsurgeries and casts and you know
all this stuff for like a year.
They told her basically well,if you still have your receipt
(04:16):
you can bring back to a new oneand my mom was like, no, we're
keeping her.
You know, I just want to letyou know that that's what was
going on.
And my adoptive mom's spin onthat was that the doctor
obviously knew, because, I mean,anyone that's had a baby knows
doctors check the hips, that'sjust one of the things they do,
right?
So she thinks that he knew butdidn't want to say, because then
(04:38):
I would have been on thediscount shelf, you know, at the
back of the store because I wasdamaged, and so she thinks he
kept it a secret on purpose, sothat I would get placed.
And my mom's you know, myparents were great.
My dad had a great job, hadgood insurance, thank goodness,
and so you know that all workedout.
Speaker 1 (04:57):
I'm going to hit pause for just a minute and I
want to just align something.
I know, I know you were kind ofjoking about it and I find it
really heartwarming that you cangiggle and but I also know it
has a serious note for someonewho's telling those types of
things about their story.
(05:18):
How does it make you feel whenyou're talking about those
things about yourself in thecontext of humor?
Is my like?
Is it coming out as like kindof my protection mechanism?
It's coming out as kind of.
Speaker 2 (05:33):
I kind of feel like it's kind of an unbelievable
situation.
Yeah, you know, I always kindof say I feel like the cabbage
patch doll on the shelf you know, and that you know the adopters
come in and kind of go shoppingand if you don't have blue eyes
and blonde hair, you know Idon't want that Cabbage Patch
doll because that one doesn'tlook like us or it's not.
(05:54):
You know what I want.
I think the laughing is more ofjust an unbelievable feeling
like this really happens.
Speaker 1 (06:03):
Yeah.
Speaker 2 (06:03):
You know this really happens.
Yeah, no, this really happens.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
I think that's important sometimes for us to
acknowledge and talk about,because that is exactly what it
is.
It's.
It's not like we're making funof ourselves or anyone else.
It is truly the context of Ireally probably can't make this
up Like this is there are thingsabout our journey and as you
continue with yours, there arethings about our journey and as
you continue with yours.
We can't make these things upand we are living proof.
(06:28):
They happen to people and so Ijust always am very sensitive to
just the context of our bodylanguage and our emotional
expressions, because they cancome off very differently to
different people.
And yeah, we can't make it up,and sometimes you just have to
laugh because you know what elsewould you do?
(06:49):
Cry Every time you tell thisstory.
Speaker 2 (06:52):
That's probably not what we really want either yeah
it's just, it's so unbelievablethat I just chuckle like it's
like this really happens, youknow.
And to really think that Ireally would have been on the
you know markdown discount, youknow, in the back of the store
aisle, you know the chip dish orwhatever you want to call it,
like that would have been me andwho knows if I would have even
(07:14):
been adopted.
You know, we taught, we laughabout winning.
You know adoptees laugh about Iwon the lottery, I got great
parents and I did, I got greatparents.
We all know that that's notalways the case, but those are
other things that we laugh about.
And I like on TikTok right now,everyone's like making those
videos where it says I'm adopted, you know, I don't, I don't
(07:37):
worry that I'm dating my brother, I'm adopted, I don't.
And those videos that I kind oflaugh when I see those cause I
think my gosh, we could totallymake one of those videos about
all the things people don'tthink about being adopted.
Speaker 1 (07:50):
Yeah, I agree, I 100 percent agree.
Well, let's pick back up.
You had great parents.
You had a father who had afantastic job that allowed for
them to not return you.
That just sounds so awful.
I mean, it really does Pick upfrom.
They were you know, they wereable to give you everything that
(08:11):
you needed around your care.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, I mean, I really did.
I didn't really want foranything.
My family they never bring upthat I'm adopted.
I never feel like I'm adoptedin my family.
I never have.
If I bring it up, they're kindof looking at me like why is
that?
Why are you even sayinganything about that?
Like you know, they don't.
I feel Italian, they're ahundred percent Italian and I
(08:36):
feel more Italian than Danish,german, scottish, than what I
really am.
I don't really relate that'sanother funny thing.
I don't relate to thosebiological ties at all.
I really just feel like I'mItalian.
I just feel so comfortable, youknow, in that environment and
with my family.
But at the same time I was likethe good kid.
I had one brother growing up.
(08:58):
He was not adopted, he wasbiological.
They had him first.
He was almost five years olderthan me and they adopted because
my mom was told medically notto have any more kids.
So that's why.
And they wanted a girl.
So the only way to ensure thatwas to adopt.
So that's how I got to be intheir family.
But you know, growing up I wasthe good kid.
(09:18):
I remember always being scaredand I didn't know why.
You know, going out in public.
The neighbor would come overand knock on the door and he was
, you know.
He thought he was being funnyand he would say I'm going to
take you home and I waspetrified that he was going to
take me away from my family.
You know, didn't know why I wasreacting that way.
(09:39):
I was probably like three and Iremember that being terrified
but always kind of scaredgrowing up.
And then I got into my teenageyears.
I didn't date very much.
I was scared to date people.
I just kind of didn't want toget close to anybody.
You know, that's kind of whatit felt like, didn't want to
(09:59):
reveal myself to anyone.
So I didn't date till I wasprobably around 19.
And I met my soon to be husbandat that time and I was kind of
call him a casualty of adoptionbecause I didn't even know who I
was.
So how could I show him who Iwas?
So I gave him a false sense ofwho I was, got married at like
21, had kids, you know, went tochurch, had the you know white
(10:22):
picket fence and the whole deal.
About 10 years in I was so, so,so unhappy, so unhappy, and that
kind of continued.
We stayed married till 22 years.
And so I carried on for thenext 12 years trying to make it
work, trying to make it work andjust got increasingly more
(10:55):
miserable.
The house when nobody was home,because I had this
uncontrollable, uncontrollableurge to go to the kitchen drawer
and pull out a knife and juststab myself.
So I kept walking the house andjust like, talking to myself
and just waiting for somebody tocome home, going to the doctor.
(11:15):
Thousands of tests, nothing'scoming up, everything's fine.
I'll just put you on anxietymedication and depression
medication.
So they did that.
But I was like that's not it,that is not what's going on here
, there's something else goingon.
And I remember telling my ex Isaid I literally feel like I'm
dying.
I feel like I'm dying from theinside out and they're not going
(11:38):
to know what's wrong with meuntil they do my autopsy.
I said that I'm dying and itwas such a helpless feeling,
like so.
Such a helpless feeling Causethat was not my personality,
having anxiety and things likethat.
It was just so foreign.
But you know, my body wasscreaming like you have trauma,
you're not dealing with it, youknow.
(11:58):
But I didn't, I didn't want togive up the facade of like what
we had going on, that everybodyelse from the outside looking in
.
So I ended up just withdrawing,a lot Like I didn't talk to my
parents.
They thought I was mad at them.
I withdrew from everything,everybody, because I could feel
like my exterior was going tocrack and people were going to
(12:19):
start to see something was wrong.
And if I didn't even know whatwas wrong, was I supposed to
tell them?
From the outside, everythingwas perfect.
You know, I had everything.
I then became like 40 at thistime and I just couldn't do it
anymore.
I could not do it another dayand I remember having this
vision of me like floating on afloaty out in the ocean and I
(12:40):
remember like just laying there,you know sun's on you, you're
feeling great, floating along,and then all of a sudden I like
look, and I'm so far away fromthe beach.
If I don't start swimming backright this moment, I'm not going
to make it back there.
Speaker 1 (12:55):
I am going to go out.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
I'm going to be drawn out into the ocean, and what I
call the beach that was me, thatwas my authentic self was the
beach.
So I said I have to startswimming back to myself,
whatever that means, I have tostart swimming back.
And so I did, little by little,and the way I did that was kind
of just feeling into my body,which I never, ever did.
(13:17):
I mean, adoptees don't want tofeel into your bodies, but I had
to.
And so I started little bylittle with the little things.
You know, how did I feel when Iread a book?
How did I feel when I went fora cup of coffee or when, you
know, spent time with friends?
Did that feel good?
You know?
Because I didn't know.
I didn't know even what I liked.
(13:38):
I didn't even know what myfavorite food was, I didn't even
know what my favorite color was.
I had no clue.
I just did what everybody elsethought I should be doing, never
consulted myself growing up,never, ever.
So I started doing that and justkind of feeling my way back,
little by little.
And I've been doing that nowfor almost you know what 15
(14:01):
years, 16 years now, and stilldoing that, because I feel like
we still evolve and change and,as adoptees, more things come up
, feel like we dealt withsomething, and then another
something comes up or somethingtriggers something and we're
like, okay, now I need to lookat that and I just see each
trigger as a treasure really.
(14:22):
And I started looking at itlike that because they really
are, they really are treasures,they're, they're our feelings,
are trying to tell us somethingand a lot of times, even if it
doesn't feel good, it's justkind of like that warning light
in your car Look at me, there'ssomething that we need to deal
with so that you can become evenmore authentic and have even
more of a creative andfulfilling life.
(14:43):
Once you kind of start thatprocess, more things kind of
fall into place and fall intoyour lap for you to kind of look
at and be curious about.
So that's kind of how I startedon my healing journey from
adoption.
Speaker 1 (14:56):
Well, you had a lot in that dialogue and I want to
back up just a little bit.
Well, you had a lot in thatdialogue and I want to back up
just a little bit.
So you mentioned kind of at thebeginning that your now
ex-husband was a casualty ofadoption.
Is that because you didn't knowyour authentic self and so, by
not knowing your authentic self,you didn't know how to be in
(15:17):
the relationship?
Speaker 2 (15:31):
I'm trying to make the connection there just for a
couple minutes because it was, Ithink, an important piece.
And so I really showed him afalse sense of who I was for our
whole entire marriage, prettymuch until the end.
The other casualties were mykids, because I did the same
with them, especially my son.
We were in the church quite abit and he was very much into
(15:53):
you don't get divorced.
And so when that happened itreally crushed him.
He was like 18 at the time.
I remember thinking I had totake responsibility for that
part because I showed him afalse mom and so I had to kind
of slowly just be authentic andhope that he kind of came around
and saw that I was happier anda better mom because of being
(16:13):
more authentic.
And I have to say, what is henow?
He's 31, I think, yeah, he's 31.
And it's still strained.
It's still strained.
We see each other, you know, onholidays and stuff.
I don't think it'll ever goback to the way it was and
that's just part of theconsequences of me not living
authentically.
You know, from the beginning Ihave to take responsibility for
(16:34):
that.
I wish he had a littlecompassion, but he doesn't
understand the adoption.
You know the whole part of howthat plays into anything, so
yeah, so I wish he had a littlemore compassion for that.
I have to meet him where he'sat and take responsibility for
my part in that.
Speaker 1 (16:51):
Yeah, and you know that's admirable in the context
of you didn't even know, andit's really hard, I think, for
non-adoptees or anyone adjacentto us to really understand.
I didn't know that wasn't myauthentic self.
I probably had hints about it.
Yeah Right, things were poppingup throughout the entire
(17:13):
journey, but I really didn'tknow until this point in time.
And so yours is the metaphor ofbeing out in the ocean and
being too far away to get backto you and you're the beach, and
I think that was a beautifulmetaphor of really kind of being
out there yet not connected andneeding to get back to the
(17:37):
person that you are.
It takes a long time.
Not all adoptees are going toget to that spot at all, and it
almost breaks my heart I don'tknow how you feel to know that
there are people that aren'tgoing to be in that spot.
Look at what you said about youand what we know about myself as
(17:57):
well.
It didn't happen at my teenageyears.
It didn't happen at the 20th,30th, somewhere in that 40, 50
range for me.
And yeah, it's just so powerfulto hear other adoptees say I
didn't find my authentic selffor quite some time.
(18:17):
I feel that's encouraging forother adoptees that are still
trying to figure out who theyare and how this does affect
identity.
I want to tap a little bit intoidentity, because you talked
about being the good daughter.
Good wife is what I picked upon that the perfect picture,
(18:37):
family, all of the things thatpeople project regardless of
adoption.
But tell me what your thoughtsare on the impact of adoption to
those social norms as well.
Speaker 2 (18:53):
It's a tough one, I mean as far as being the good
child.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
Yeah, yeah know it's tough because we don't.
Speaker 2 (19:01):
We can only do hindsight but like, um, I had to
, like, I said I had to do whatwas expected and whatever was
next.
You know especially like what Iwas saying when I got married.
It was like you date for acouple years and then you get
married and then you wait acouple years and then you have a
kid.
And then you wait a coupleyears and you have another kid.
And I did it all right you waita couple of years and then you
have a kid.
And then you wait a couple ofyears and you have another kid.
(19:21):
And I did it all right.
You know I was doing everythingright.
And you go to church and youjoin the choir and you're, you
know your kids go to privateschool and everything's fine and
dandy and it's and it's notfine and dandy, you know it's
not.
And so I feel like those socialnorms are huge.
There's a huge pressure becausewhen I finally did decide to
choose myself, which meant I hadto leave my husband at the time
(19:43):
behind I you know I I'm nottaking all the blame for that
there were some things, you know, that he had part in as far as,
like the church goes, which wasa huge part of our lives.
I had to be cut out from thatand going.
My kids were still going toschool at the time and I
remember driving up to theschool and there was always a
(20:04):
teacher out front watching thekids get out of the cars and
stuff and the teachers, whenthey saw my car, they would turn
their back to the car so theywouldn't have to even like say
hi to me and that feeling of notbelonging, you know, without
again, knowing the story ofreally what's going on.
(20:25):
It just kind of replayed thatwhole, you know, kind of
reinforced, that abandonment,not belonging, feeling like
you're not, you don't fit in,kind of just reinforced all that
for me.
Reinforced all that for me.
But because I was working onmyself at the time, it almost
(20:45):
propelled me forward to findingmyself even more Like.
I use that as a catalyst to,you know, get, still, get back
to myself.
So I, I used my, like I said,my, my trauma and my triggers as
a treasure.
Speaker 1 (20:58):
Yeah, I really like that concept of treasure as well
.
It allows you to find the goodin the buried.
I think it's interesting as youwere telling the story of the
teachers that turned their back.
What a horrific thing to do toanyone period, but then to do
that to someone that you don'tknow the journey just really my
(21:22):
empathy for you climbed right.
I was just feeling it comingacross.
Speaker 2 (21:27):
We've had the conversation about having
compassion for, you know, notthe birth mothers and hearing
their stories, and I think I waslistening to you with Julie and
you were talking about a bookthat you read.
That was just on time and itwas a birth mother story.
Cahill was the last name orsomething.
(21:48):
Yep, candace.
Speaker 1 (21:49):
Cahill, goodbye again .
Speaker 2 (21:50):
So I had kind of a similar experience with
Catherine Vogley with her book INeed to Tell you and, oh my God
, knowing those story, hearingthose stories is just so
emotional and I had so muchcompassion and it gained.
I gained so much compassion formy birth mother and what she
must've gone through, the traumathat she went through, all
(22:14):
those things, amazed at howtheir stories changed me and I
think every adoptee should readthose books, I would agree.
Speaker 1 (22:27):
I have not read the one that you mentioned and I
don't know if you've read theone I mentioned yet.
Either way, I will plug themboth as equals, because any
birth mother who's willing towrite pen to paper gets my vote.
And I would say we were talkingabout the treasures and the
triggers, and the triggers aretreasures.
(22:49):
That moment in time I've saidit several times, I'll say it
every time again was one of thebiggest gifts I could have been
given.
And the moment that I read thatbook, it really was another one
of many steps to me making aturn for what could have been
(23:11):
very dire situation.
Had it gone on much longer,relative to my mindset, if it
had not been for thatperspective, I finally felt like
oh, I get it, that's what wasimportant to me, right, I could
just so understand.
It created a bond.
It just really created anotherbond of understanding.
(23:35):
So I'm with you.
I don't know Got to give, we'vegot to, I don't know how to say
it.
I hope that, as the communitycontinues to grow, we can find
the right venues, the rightmethodologies and the right
humanity to take what we hearand grow from it.
(23:58):
We don't all have to grow atthe same rate, but just grow or
just leave room.
Speaker 2 (24:03):
I mean, everyone's journey is different, so what
can we do now to help make itbetter for those that are coming
up?
And I think for me and you,it's getting the word out about
the truth about adoption and thethings that really can happen
and do happen.
I think there's room foreverybody and their stories and
even if I don't agree with you,it doesn't mean I can't hold
(24:26):
space for you and still say I'mso sorry that that was your
experience and I'm sure I get ashaving a positive, you know
adoption experience.
A lot of times I get thebacklash of well, you don't get
a voice because you don't have aclue what we all went through
over here, and it's like I stillhave relinquishment trauma.
It might not be like yours inyour face, but I still had it
(24:50):
and in a way, because I had sucha good upbringing I didn't
realize it till a lot later andI had to almost feel like I was
dying to figure it out.
But I think we need to havemore compassion for each other.
We've all been told thenarrative.
Every one of us has been toldthe story.
We've been told we're lucky.
The birth mother's been toldshe was doing the right thing.
(25:11):
The adoptive parents are toldyou're saving a child, you're
giving them a home.
So we've all been.
We all bought into the storiesthat we've been told.
You know the Disneyland story,and so it's time to educate the
world.
It's really just time to tellour stories and educate people.
Speaker 1 (25:27):
Sharing our stories, putting ourselves in a public
spotlight along with others.
There are a large number ofpodcasters.
It seems to be growingexponentially.
I love it.
I don't know about you, but Ilove it, and the reason I love
it is today, before you, and Idecided to get on, get on mic
(25:49):
here.
I did a little bit more digging.
I thought, you know, I shouldlook to see how much crossover
we have between the two of us.
The crossover of guests is sominimal.
It isn't even scratching thesurface, like if someone were to
say, oh, I heard them onWandering Tree and I heard them
(26:09):
over on Haley Radge's AdopteesOn.
Or Damon Davis's who Am IReally?
Or yours Mind, your Own, karma,the Adoption Chronicles or, you
know, the Making of Me podcastwith Sarah and Louise.
The crossover is so minimalthat that just reinforces for
(26:29):
myself.
There is absolutely enoughspace for everybody.
We cannot cover every person.
No handful of anyone can dothat.
I also would like to tap intoanother comment that you made,
which is I had a good childhoodand adoption.
(26:51):
I think it's okay to say thatand I hope we allow people to
say that more often.
What also makes it okay to saythat is for the first 30 minutes
of our conversation here orthereabouts.
You've been pretty honest aboutyour trauma too right, it
didn't isolate you from stillbeing affected by adoption, and
(27:13):
I wonder if that's where we gethung up sometimes in community
about the bad guys versus thegood guys.
Speaker 2 (27:22):
Yeah, I think a lot of people.
When we're triggered, that'sjust a part of you that's
wanting your attention and wereact from those triggered spots
, those triggered places.
That that's where the trauma isat, and you can choose how
you're going to react.
Um, in that moment and I reallyhad to learn and this was super
(27:45):
hard to do but instead ofgetting angry and triggered when
I felt that I would get curious, I would look inwards instead
of outwards.
You know, instead of pointingfingers, I would look at myself
and say why am I feeling thisway?
What is it about this situationor what this person said to me
that is making me feel this way?
It's not them, it's me.
So if you can just be a littlebit curious when you feel that
(28:08):
anger or anything that's that'scoming up and making you feel
uncomfortable, if you could juststop and choose how you react
and choose to be a littlecurious, you'll be surprised at
what you can discover aboutyourself and heal parts of
yourself by doing that.
Speaker 1 (28:25):
Yeah, you've mentioned healing a few
different times, and so I'd liketo hear what is your definition
of healed or healing?
Is it an end point or a?
Speaker 2 (28:36):
journey on to itself.
Yeah, it's definitely a journey.
It's always a journey.
I wish it was a destination,but I don't see that happening.
At the same time, I've learnedto love the journey, even though
there's bumps in the road, andyou know things that come up and
things.
Every opportunity is somethingthat's going to get me back to
(29:02):
my authenticity, my essence, mycentral self.
Nothing's going to come up inmy journey that I'm not going to
learn from.
I'm going to learn from all ofit, especially if it's hard.
I'm not going through this shitand get nothing out of it, and
if I can help someone else alongthe way, that's the better for
it.
You know, that's how I'velearned to look at it.
(29:22):
Instead of being afraid ofchange, people are so afraid of
change in the unknown they justwant to stay.
So you want to stay and wallowin whatever you're wallowing in.
I just have learned that I'drather have a little bit of
discomfort in the learning thanhave long-term suffering.
Speaker 1 (29:42):
Yeah, that's nice.
So in that journey and then inthat healing, where does the fog
fit in?
Speaker 2 (29:48):
I was in the fog my whole life.
I really feel like the fog isjust a term for disguising your
authenticity, that it's hidden,and so my whole life I would say
.
I was an Oscar award winningactress in my own life and I put
the mask on and played the part, did everything right, what I
thought was right.
(30:08):
So coming out of the fog wasjust finally, it was a lot of
things.
It wasn't just adoption traumaand I think I didn't know even
when I was coming out of the fogthat that's what I was doing.
I just needed to get back tomyself and in that process I
learned that adoption was partof that, and that wasn't until
probably in the last five yearsor so that I was able to
(30:31):
recognize it and claim that,because you're not supposed to
talk about that stuff.
We don't talk about that stuff.
So I was able to feel thefreedom to do that and that was
huge.
Speaker 1 (30:44):
Yeah, it's interesting, having interviewed
several adoptees both of us agood number and those are the
ones that hit the air.
We're not even talking aboutconversations that don't hit the
air.
But, with that said, what I'mfinding interesting?
Fog has a lot of differentmeanings for a lot of different
(31:06):
adoptees as well, and I likethat.
It's okay for that.
You just described it as partof the journey and how you've
been journeying through comingout, and I look at it very
differently.
I had an instant moment likethis is enough, and so I speak
(31:27):
openly about that moment and Idon't ever want to not speak
openly about it.
I don't intend to speak aboutit to hurt the person that
actually, you know, created theinstantaneous moment, but by not
speaking about it, I'm nevergoing to be able to get beyond
it or help someone elseacknowledge oh, I could have any
(31:51):
definition of fog and mydiscovery moment can happen for
any reason.
There's no set formula and Ithink that's really important as
well to share.
Speaker 2 (32:06):
Yeah, definitely, yep , and there's room for all of us
.
You know, and and who knowswhat, like you said, who knows
what triggers each one of us?
I almost had to feel like I wasdying to before I mean, I was,
I was holding on, I was holdingon to the facade.
I didn't want to disappointanybody.
I did not want to disappointanybody and I knew that it would
(32:29):
look like I was coming out ofleft field and I didn't even
really understand why.
I just knew I had to.
And, like I said so, it wasn'tin that moment that I like made
that correlation that it wasadoption.
You know it was, it was rolledin there, it was rolled up in
there, but I had to unravel someof it to finally realize that
the role that it did play,because you know, having a good
(32:50):
adoption, you feel like youdon't really have any grounds to
say that I had trauma.
You know, I feel like I didn'thave permission to say that and
the community sometimes kind ofreinforces that for me.
But I know that I do.
I get that they're justreacting from from their traumas
.
So I don't take it personal.
We're all on different journeysand there's, like you said,
there's room for all of us andthere's compassion for all of us
(33:12):
.
We need to have compassion foreach other.
Even if we don't agree, itdoesn't matter.
You can still have compassionfor the other person and what
they're going through.
Speaker 1 (33:19):
Yeah, absolutely.
I like to the aspects oflearning and continuing to heal.
So there are some things you'redoing that help along with just
talking.
That's just one aspect.
Help along with just talking,that's just one aspect.
Podcasting is one aspect.
What are some other things thatyou are doing or placing into
(33:44):
your toolbox to continue to growinto your authentic self and
heal.
Speaker 2 (33:46):
Most recently I got certified in Sematic Mindful
Guided Imagery, so it's asomatic therapy similar to
internal family systems, so kindof similar to that.
But it's an upcoming somatictherapy that uses kind of a
light, hypnosis, meditation andguided imagery to tap into your
subconscious mind and reallycreate whatever it is that you
(34:09):
want to create.
And I've been practicing thisfor almost a year now and I've
seen so much healing in theadoptee community from adoption
trauma because I know a lot ofpeople don't feel like they can
heal from adoption trauma and Imean I've seen it and I've
experienced it myself.
So it's a pretty easy and gentleand quick therapy and I feel
like you know when you do, whenyou do cognitive therapy and
(34:32):
talk therapy, that's great.
But I have so many clients comeand say there's still something
left, there's a little root ofsomething and I can't get to it
with cognitive talk therapy andso going inward and kind of
following the body and what yourbody's trying to tell you seems
to kind of do the trick that'slike kind of the missing piece
to the puzzle is anothercombination, another.
You know number to the trick.
(34:52):
That's like kind of the missingpiece to the puzzle is another
combination, another you knownumber to the combination.
I think everybody's healingcombinations different.
It's another thing in thetoolbox that you can try if you
still feel stuck after tryingsome of the other therapies.
Speaker 1 (35:06):
That analogy of a combination and no two people
are the same.
I do like putting new thingsinto the toolbox.
One of the great things aboutour relationship is I was a
guest on your podcast.
I loved every minute of it.
I shared very openly my storyabout the abyss.
It is something that I'mfeeling very passionate about
(35:28):
here in 2024.
I feel it because I needed morethings in my toolbox.
Not every person can affordtherapy first of all, so I
appreciate that there are thoseoptions, such as the one that
you just spoke of for adoptees,because, again, you're right,
the combination for us it's notall the same.
Speaker 2 (35:52):
Not at all.
Yeah, yeah, keep searching,keep being curious.
Speaker 1 (35:56):
Yeah, absolutely, and I love that curiosity thing.
It kind of is reminding me ofCurious George the book, the
movies, the right, and now we'vejust if well, we've already
divulged.
We're old ladies in somepeople's context, so I love the
fact that I'm my age and I thinkit's interesting how that plays
a part in the combination aswell.
(36:19):
So, melissa, as we're gettingready to transition into closing
out, we've spent quite a bit oftime in today's conversation
talking about the adopteecommunity, all of the variations
of conversation that are goingon in that platform, in that
area, in that space.
We've referenced space quite abit.
(36:41):
We've talked about all of thedifferent players adoptees,
birth parents, adoptive parents,therapists, therapist what do
you think is?
Speaker 2 (36:59):
the best mindset as it relates to connecting to the
adoptee community.
Number one we've talked about alot compassion for each other,
trying to understand where eachof us have come from and what
stories we've been told.
I think for the most part,people operate from a space
where we're not trying to hurteach other.
That inevitably happens.
I mean, you try to be the bestparent and you still, your kid's
still going to have trauma.
(37:19):
I don't care if you're adoptedor not.
Knowing that and not takingthings so personal, that's huge.
I really think the key isunderstanding each other,
letting each other have our ownstories and our own opinions
about those stories, and notfeeling like if you don't
believe the way I believe, thenwe can't be friends.
You know, we're not going to getanywhere if we have that kind
(37:41):
of attitude.
We're not going to be able toeducate the world if we have
that attitude.
So what change do you want tosee in the community and what
are you doing to make thathappen?
Is your attitude right nowhelping that or is it hindering
that?
Be the change you want to seein the world, I agree.
Speaker 1 (37:58):
So let's end today with a little plug for your
podcast.
Speaker 2 (38:03):
So it is mind your own karma.
I have a website mind your ownkarmacom.
If you want to get in touchwith me.
My email is mindyourownkarma atgmailcom.
If you are looking for somatictherapy, my website is
somatichealingjourneyscom if youwant to know more about that.
And then I'm on Facebook andInstagram as well, under
(38:23):
mindyourownkarma.
Speaker 1 (38:24):
Fantastic.
Well, it has been a blessing tohave you on the show.
I appreciate your friendshipand the connection that we have
created.
I appreciate your friendshipand the connection that we have
created.
It is always a joy to havethose in your back pocket,
people that you can call up andgo.
I just need to talk thisthrough and you're definitely
one of those.
You are always welcome here andthank you for being with us
(38:45):
today.
Thanks so much, lisa Ann.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode of Wandering
Tree Podcast.
Please rate, review and sharethis out so we can experience
the lived adoptee journeytogether.
Want to be a guest on our show?
Check us out atwanderingtreeadopteecom.
Popular Podcasts
Bookmarked by Reese's Book Club
Welcome to Bookmarked by Reese’s Book Club — the podcast where great stories, bold women, and irresistible conversations collide! Hosted by award-winning journalist Danielle Robay, each week new episodes balance thoughtful literary insight with the fervor of buzzy book trends, pop culture and more. Bookmarked brings together celebrities, tastemakers, influencers and authors from Reese's Book Club and beyond to share stories that transcend the page. Pull up a chair. You’re not just listening — you’re part of the conversation.
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!