August 3, 2023 • 56 mins
It gets real and emotional in this episode where we welcome our special guests, Linda and Louise, a birth mother and adoptee duo, who bravely share their poignant journey of reunion, self-discovery, and bonding. Prepare to be moved as together, we unpack the life-altering experiences that marked Linda's past - from enduring abuse to meeting Louise's birth father, and Louise's exploration of her adoption's emotional impact that eventually led her to solace in martial arts.
The episode takes an emotional turn when Linda and Louise recount the intricate details of their reunion journey. Each revelation, from the anticipation of their first meeting to the development of their bond through frequent communication, is a testament to their resilience. The challenges they faced, such as building trust amidst processing trauma and navigating misunderstandings, will make you appreciate their strength and the commonality we find within the community. Their coping mechanisms, highlight the variety of ways one can navigate life's unexpected turns.
As we wind down, we delve into the surprising silver lining the COVID-19 pandemic brought about, enabling Linda and Louise to strengthen their bond. and leverage the power of online support groups.
Their advocacy for adoption legislation and their use of online platforms to share their story further underscores the positive impact of connections.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:06):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Within the first week or so we had exchanged photos
and I think in the beginning shewas a little guarded because
you know, you hear the storiesof the scams.
To be honest, I was a lotguarded.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to today's episode of Wandering Tree
Podcast, and I have some specialguests with us, kind of taking
a little bit of a different spinon some of our conversations
For our listeners who have beenwith us multiple seasons kind of
dove a couple of times into thebirth mother perspective.
And today we're going to notonly dive into the birth mother
(00:58):
perspective but we're going tomarry that with the adoptee
perspective through a fantasticduo, linda and Louise.
Welcome, ladies.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Well, thanks for having me, lisa Am, we're so
glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, we're glad to have you here as well For
today's conversation.
It might be in our listenersbest interest to kind of pare it
down to two different versionsof the story Linda, your story
as the birth mother, and thenLouise, your story as the
adoptee.
And then we'll bring it allback together at the end and
(01:33):
talk about where you guys arerelative to reunion and you know
how that's taken place, some ofthe expectations, some of the
challenges, and then you know,just to kind of set our
listeners up for success.
We'll end it off with a littlebit about you guys in terms of
advocacy and, as you guys know,I love to lift people up as it
(01:53):
relates to connection to thecommunity.
Well, we've got a lot to talkabout today.
We should just jump right in.
How about with you, linda?
Why don't we start out withyour story?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
My story.
Well, my story is notdissimilar to that's a real word
to other birth moms Seems like.
Well, most of us are creative,let's be honest with high aces
scores.
I was born into a house thatwas pretty volatile A lot of
emotional abuse, a lot ofbullying.
I had no grandparents, aunts,uncles, cousins.
(02:22):
I had one younger brother.
I had no mentors in my life, soI was a pretty solitary person
and with a lot of emotionaltoxicity running around the
house.
I kept to myself.
Unfortunately, I was an avidreader from an early age and so
stuck with my books and stuckwith my animals and stuck by
myself, pretty quiet, prettychill, pretty not engaged with a
(02:44):
lot of people because of thenonsense going on in my home.
I developed rather early,getting my period at 10 and
becoming the same size I am nowwhen I was in fifth or sixth
grade.
So my body jumped ahead and mymind soon followed and it was
the 70s.
Yes, I dated a lot in highschools.
I met Louise, my daughter, whoI last knew adoption in 1979 in
(03:10):
high school and we started todate after we graduated and
promptly got met pregnant rightin June.
So, yay, overachieving there,knew that I couldn't probably
stay there because my house wasso abusive.
Referring back to what I talkedabout early and I'm talking
about this for the first time,so I'm bearing my soul for you,
(03:32):
lisa and well, we love it.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So take your time and take a deep breath and what we
might do just to kind of kind ofmove forward here a little bit
and give you a minute.
You've mentioned a couplethings, so I'm going to have you
go back a little bit forclarity and I think our
listeners would appreciate it.
You mentioned birth mothers,high ACEs score, and I'm not
(03:56):
sure everybody knows what thatis.
So do you want to give a littlemore context around that?
Then we'll give you the nextquestion to kind of inject just
off of that little bit we'vealready heard from you, which I
know my heart's starting to, youknow, come out in empathy, and
I know the listeners will too.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Adverse childhood experience is what ACE stands
for, and a high score is due toemotional abuse, physical abuse,
sexual abuse, neglect, no adultsupervision.
No, there's a number of factorsthat will create a high ACE
score.
Basically, it's a.
It's a pretty failing of achildhood.
If you listen to other podcastsand your podcasts and you
(04:33):
listen to other birth mothers,you listen to their history and
there's no wonder they didn'thave love at home.
I didn't have love at home.
Yes, tendency is you're goingto look for love if you're not a
lot of self worth and you thinkthat you should save yourself
for something bigger and better.
So you just want to have somelove.
You know, love the one you'rewith kind of a deal.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So say one more time what does ACEs stand for?
It means adverse childhoodexperience Adverse childhood
experience Okay, well, we needto measure ourselves on some
scale, I guess.
Right, and those types ofskills help us understand
ourselves in our past.
So with that I want to justconnect another dot real quickly
(05:18):
as well.
So you've met Luisa's with ustoday and you indicated that you
met and dated her birth fatherand married him.
Did I get that correctly?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
for clarification Well, the order was me being
born and then, a year later, yougot married?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, we got married after we lost her.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
So jumping back into your story and knowing that you
are burying your soul and you'rein a safe place to do so, no
criticisms from me, clearly nocriticisms from Luisa.
I can see it right now.
Where do you want to pick upout?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I talked with.
Jim is my husband's name, andand we, you know, we discussed
we're pregnant, what are wegoing to do?
And I said I couldn't go backto my house.
I mean, I was living in myhouse, but it was very toxic and
two years before I had had anabortion because I had been with
another young man and at thattime there was no discussion
(06:14):
about what I went through.
There was no therapy, there wasno, it was just what you did to
us and then it was shut downand we don't talk about it.
So that was, the abortionhappened and then it was put
away and we went on with ourlives.
Well, nothing that had changedin my house.
In fact, it became more toxicand met Jim, dot dot dot had
Louise, got pregnant with theLouise, so knew I couldn't go
(06:37):
home.
So and and I had gone to Jim'shouse it was a house that was,
there was a lot of laughter andit seemed like they loved each
other.
It was a big thing.
I, you know, I again I said Ihad no family.
He had a big family and itseemed like a loving, warm place
and I went over there quiteoften and got to know them.
Well, we spoke to them and theythis was in Michigan, they had
(06:59):
moved to Massachusetts and theysaid come to Massachusetts, stay
with us and we'll figure it out.
Jim drove me to Massachusettsin September when we were
starting college.
I dropped out and he left methere and then he went back to
Michigan to go to college.
I stayed with his family, histwo younger sisters and his
parents, who were alcoholics.
(07:21):
That I did not realize until Iwas there and it was a surprise,
and a really terrible surprise.
The two younger sisters and Ihelped each other because during
the day it wasn't a big deal,but the alcoholism came out at
night and there was viciousness.
The mother would either goafter the girl, one of the girls
, or myself.
(07:41):
The girls and I kind of hungtogether and I was in hell
because I had left the fryingpan and gotten into the into the
fire.
Long distance was a big deal.
So my way of communicating withany friends I had two friends
that I communicated.
It was with pen and paper andstamps, so I didn't have a lot
(08:01):
of support.
My family was out and so I wasliving in this hellacious place
just getting through, and theyhad already decided what was
going to happen.
They.
I was told when I got there thatI was going to give my baby
away and that's what the churchwanted and that's what had been
decided.
I thought I was going to besafe, was not?
Jim returned after his semesterof school.
(08:25):
Louise was born in the end ofMarch.
I had her.
I went through Catholic socialservices what to do with this
pregnancy?
Of course the counselor, socialworker, did the usual.
You know the usual story thatyou hear from birth mothers.
You know this is the only thingto do.
It's the right thing to do.
Other You're not worthy of this.
You know another family iswaiting.
(08:45):
You're going to love your childso much you're going to give it
away because that makes sense.
Just the usual stuff that weusual coercion that that these
agencies use was used on me andI thought she was my friend.
I didn't realize that I shouldprobably be talking about this
and having some therapy and anddealing with it.
But no, it was just to get thebaby, get there, get me to sign
(09:06):
the papers and be done with it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I heard a lot of themes and I just want to pick
them out a little bit.
So the theme of isolation, tobegin with, in your home,
someone that had made a previousdecision relative to birth or
not, that maybe it had not beenworked through.
The need for love, feeling safe.
So now I've got, we have thetheme of I need to be safe.
(09:31):
Then I heard trust in there.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Maybe if you would take a few more minutes in that
uncomfortable space and talk alittle bit more about the
coercion piece of that, that'sthe funny thing is that time and
I know that's due due to traumaand it's so frustrating because
there's things I try toremember and I can't.
I can't tell you exactly howmany times I went, but I know it
(09:54):
was a number of times.
So I ended up in Massachusettsin September and I had her in
March.
So I don't remember if I sawthem, this social worker, once a
month.
I don't remember.
I do remember being told manytimes don't have the things that
I need to have a baby, youdon't have the skills.
There are other people waiting.
(10:15):
This is an answer to theirprayers, it was.
It was Catholic social services.
So, yeah, it was a lot ofreligious stuff placed on me.
I was last then and for aperson who's come from a home
that was like that.
And then I go to a safe housewhere there I'm not Catholic and
I'm less than, and then thesocial worker, who is supposed
to be a professional helping me,is Saying that I'm less than
(10:37):
and I don't have anything tooffer and that it will be okay.
She told me you will forgetthis, you'll move on with your
life, it will be a nothing,don't even talk about it.
So that's a Professional sayingto disassociate awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
You're like check, I got you, I heard you, did you
Forget?
And what was life like for thethe subsequent years?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, well, when I gave birth to Louise, I was
alone in the room.
No one had prepared me forchildbirth, not not the mother
that in the home that I stayedwith, not the social worker, not
anybody.
So I'm in the hospital, I haveher.
It was a difficult birth.
I'm alone and of course, afterI have her, I'm put in a room
away from the you know, generalPopulation.
(11:21):
So I'm again being kept away.
I'm, you know, you're ashamedand don't be with other people.
Nurses would come in and sneakin and sneak out, and I only got
to see Louise once.
You know, held her and Icounted your toes and her
fingers and I looked at her andI held her and I sobbed and I
sobbed and I Sobbed and I didn'twant her to go.
(11:42):
When she, when I carried her, Isang to her, I loved her, I,
she was my world because I hadnothing else going at that point
.
It was.
I didn't want her to leave.
My body didn't want her toleave, and then she was gone.
And then I go back to the houseand this family becomes hostile
and they say I have to leaveimmediately and go back to my
(12:05):
house.
I'm traumatized to leave mydaughter.
I've been told not to sayanything, not to talk to anyone.
No one wants to talk to me.
I get on a train, I go toMichigan, I come into my house
and it was brutal.
All I heard was what do you?
What are people going to thinkabout us?
You know, it was all aboutAppearances for their sake.
Never asked how I was, neveranything.
(12:27):
To this day I'll have you knowno one, none of the pain the
grandparents Ever asked me how Iwas and how I was doing over
the years.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Not, not a one that's sad in itself, but one of the
things I heard you say is thatyou would sing to her while in
utero.
You, you know you loved her.
That is a warming thing foradoptees to hear hard and
warming because it does allow Toconnect to our feelings of loss
(12:58):
with your feelings of loss, youknowing it wasn't that it
wasn't that easy.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Oh, I even took the diaper off and looked.
I wanted to see everything.
I wanted to make sureeverything was right.
Did you name her?
Yes, I did.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Her name was Jennifer and on her she has her father's
last name and the reason Iasked if you named her was
because we do end up havingmultiple names His adoptees and,
as you're, as you're holdingsomeone and naming to you,
that's probably who she alwayshas been and to be honest, she
was always my Jennifer, alwaysfrom the I was pregnant, I knew
(13:34):
I was gonna name her Jennifer.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It was an important name to me for other people that
were in my life, and I knew shewas gonna be down.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Let's, let's move forward to you married.
You knew what did life looklike.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Life was Well after I lost her, all right.
So I had no religion in my life.
It didn't take, and alcohol anddrugs don't take for me.
For some reason I couldn't hidebehind those things.
I couldn't use them as crutches, so food became my crutch and I
quickly gained 70 pounds.
I Worked seven days a week.
(14:14):
You know.
We got married.
We put our lives together.
You know what went on.
I kept busy.
I had Family I'm putting an airquotes.
Family was important to myhusband.
So, yes, his family was in ourlives and my family was in our
(14:36):
lives as and I tried to be theperfect daughter-in-law and I
Forgot Everything that they putme through when I lived with
them and the nonsense that aidedme a lot through the years.
I it's only just been recentlysince Louise found me that I've
(14:56):
understood why that was so hard.
Because I had locked that down.
I Never told anyone about beingpregnant and losing Louise no
one.
There were only two friendsthat knew and I locked it down
good, locked it, ate it, ate,ate my way there, waited to have
another child because Didn'tthink I was worthy to have
(15:19):
another child.
And then I did get pregnant andmy body didn't want to let that
baby go.
I, I.
That was a terrible deliveryand I know it was because my
body was like, no, you're notgetting it let and you're not
gonna lose another child.
So I try to hang on to herinside of me.
(15:39):
After I had her, I Lost all myweight and I discovered exercise
and that's what saved my lifeit.
As long as I was busy doingsomething physical, I could turn
my brain off and not thinkabout it because, yeah, louise
was always on my mind.
You know, holding another baby.
I thought about my baby.
I thought the baby I lost andand I know that I Wanted to
(16:02):
mother the hell out ofeverything.
But I knew that I there was apart of me being held back
because of what I Went throughand I know my two children that
I did raise suffer from that.
They they had a great child,that I was the hell of a mom,
but emotionally I was not asfully there as that I should
have been because of what I hadbeen through.
(16:23):
They grew up knowing that theyhad a sister and I went on with
life but continued toInternalize the, the loss.
I would look at the moon andthink of her and hope she was
looking at me.
I'm not going to be exercising.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's how.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I dealt with it, never talked to anyone and of
course you know Autoimmunedisease wise, all that stress,
all that wear and tear, Ideveloped ulcerative colitis and
I that is an absolutely anautoimmune disease that is
directly related to mind, body,emotional stress and there's no
doubt that I developed thatbecause of what I've been
(17:06):
through well, I heard in thatthat you would look at the moon
and think of her, as you know,under the context of is she also
looking at the moon, trying tocreate that connection right.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
But I also heard that you didn't stop thinking about
her and I'm sure those feelingsebbed and flowed and there were
Intense times.
I would suspect birthday waspretty intense for you.
I would also suspect mother'sday was pretty intense for you,
and holidays, even with you knowa fully.
You know with your family,writing regardless of that.
(17:43):
It doesn't diminish any of that, but we just know Through
conversations like this andlived experiences are common
traits.
I think now's a good time totransition our conversation over
to Louise, because you two havea really cute demeanor.
(18:05):
I wish that the listeners couldsee you, but what others aren't
seen and I'm going to convey,is the whole time you were
talking, linda Louise waslooking at you in 100% support.
It was a fantastic thing to see.
So, with that said, what I wantto do next is Louise.
(18:26):
Let's talk about this storyfrom your perspective.
You're the adoptee, your life,your challenges.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Okay, I was born in 1980 in Massachusetts and it was
a closed adoption.
I always knew I was adopted andfive and a half years after my
adopted parents got me they gotanother child, a boy.
So I had a younger brother whowas adopted, but not for my mom,
(19:01):
and I would consider myself thegood adoptee.
I was the one that peoplepleased, I made sure everybody
was okay and I was kind of mybrother's keeper a little bit.
When he got in trouble I wouldget in trouble because I didn't
stop him from doing someshenanigans.
So he was the one that actedout and was the angry adoptee
(19:25):
and I was more the good adoptee.
At the time I didn't understandwhat that was.
I've only recently realizedwhat that is.
Family that had me, they lovedme, but they didn't get me or
try to get me or understand me,and that is all stuff that I'm
unpacking.
In the last two, three yearssince reunion I got heavily
(19:48):
involved in Martial Arts, whichhelped me get through everything
, because that was my safe place, that was my person.
My teacher was just everythingto me.
He helped me with leadershipand kind of just finding who I
was and who I wanted to be andjust being strong.
(20:10):
So I really appreciate him andI think that helped me get
through what a lot of adopteesgo through and I kind of missed
that a little bit because of himand the safe space that he gave
me.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, let's let you catch your breath, kind of
collect your thoughts a littlebit, and I'm going to ask a
couple of different questions.
The good adoptee fair number ofus Toad the line.
Usually that's what it means,right, Very empathetic to
everybody else, very much thecaretaker.
But in all that you weretalking about things you were
(20:46):
going through and so what weresome of your internal thoughts
that you weren't expressingduring that time period?
Through this mentorship youwere able to start working it
out through your body and that.
But just kind of share with ussome of your internal thoughts
that you weren't able to talkthrough and with your adopted
(21:06):
family.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I always knew I was different.
I always knew that they didn'tget me, so I just kind of did
the things that were expected ofme to make sure that I didn't
get trouble or that I didn'tmake any waves or cause any
problems.
They were dealing enough withmy adopted brother in terms of
behavior issues and things likethat, and I recently have
learned that I am neurodivergent.
(21:28):
I always thought I was a littleodd, a little weird, but now
everything makes a whole lotmore sense.
So if I had been with my birthfamily, I think they would have
realized that more and helps meto understand it and kind of
work with it a little bit, asopposed to trying to fit into
the role that my adopted familyhad kind of put me in.
(21:49):
There were certain expectationsthat I had to live up to and it
wasn't like they forced me todo it, but being the good
adoptee, I wanted to do that topeople please.
So when they had parties Iwould do all the help with the
prep and help with the breakdown.
And only recently I've kind ofdiscovered or realized that I
(22:11):
kind of felt like I was ondisplay because they would have
these big family events or bigparties or whatever with like
neighbors and everything, and itwas always to kind of like show
me off.
You know, show my me and mybrother off a little bit, and I
never.
I'm an introvert and I don'treally like being the center of
attention for anything, so italways made me very
(22:31):
uncomfortable, but they neverreally saw that.
It was more.
They wanted to have thegatherings, they wanted to have
these get togethers with like 30, 40 people and it just was very
overwhelming for me and Ialways would like shut down for
a couple days after and I neverreally understood that until the
last couple of years.
So it's been kind of like a bigawakening.
(22:52):
But all the way growing up Iknew I was adopted but I had
this real drive to send a letterto my birth parents.
I wanted them to know I wasalive and that I was okay.
I didn't understand why I hadthat drive, but I really really
knew that that was what I neededto do and I was told at 18, I
could reach out to them.
(23:12):
So I contacted the adoptionagency when I was 18 and they
had indicated that the recordsare closed but if I wanted to I
could send a letter and it mayor may not go to them and I also
had to pay a large fee of like300 or $400 for a letter that
might go somewhere or it mightnot and I just at the time I
(23:34):
would tell me if you can forwardit.
Why would I put the time andeffort in writing a letter and
send it to you and pay the moneyso that?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
just didn't sit well with me.
I want to go backwards a littlebit, not much, but just a
little bit.
And you mentionedneurodivergent.
So what were the behaviors ofyour childhood that you now have
figured out through adulthoodthat have lent you to that?
Can you explain that concept alittle bit more to some of our
(24:02):
listeners?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
So for me and really my mom has been the one that
helped me to realize a lot ofthis she noticed early on when I
found her that I give a scriptof about 20% of who I am and I
can give that no problem toanybody, no big deal.
It's getting beneath that 20%that it's really hard for me to
(24:26):
let people in.
I like to be alone, I like toread, I like to.
You know, I did a lot of sports, I kept busy, kept active, but
I didn't have a lot of reallyclose, deep friendships In
college.
I had a couple of really goodroommates and college friends
that I'm still friends with tothis day and they kind of took
(24:47):
me under their wing and I kindof say I was sheltered, like
self-imposed shelter.
I kind of created a shellaround myself and like
everything in the outside worldwas happening but it wasn't
happening to me.
I was there and I participatedbut it wasn't like it didn't
come in.
Of course we all took abnormalpsych in college so everyone was
diagnosing each other.
(25:07):
So I believe OCD and some otheranal retentive properties were
kind of discussed and thrownabout.
They did help to socialize me alittle bit more and make me
more open to letting people in.
I think I never really feltcomfortable sharing with my
adoptive family very much aboutwho I was, what my emotions were
(25:30):
, anything like that.
Sometimes I would, but often Ididn't.
And I did run into the issueswhere sometimes I would tell my
adoptive mom something and thenshe would tell everybody else
and so like, where's the trustin that?
So that made me pull back alittle bit more and the college
friends helped to open me up andkind of get me to do more
(25:51):
social things.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, so that's really a good rundown of that
and let you pick back up theletter.
Okay, so the letter Aftercollege.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Massachusetts had passed a law and I read in the
newspaper my adoptive mom hadread in the newspaper and sent
it to me that they were going tomake a registry so I could
register to be connected with mybirth family.
But I was like, well, let mewait until it's actually on the
books for a little bit.
Make sure there's some people,because if I go in now I'm going
to be the only one on there.
(26:21):
Let me see how this goes.
Well, it turns out.
A couple years later thefunding ran out or something
happened with it and that wholeregistry went away.
So that was kind ofdisappointing and I thought,
well, that shop's gone.
Then I started to hear aboutDNA and I'm like, hmm, I don't
really want my genetic materialout there, but if that's the
(26:42):
only way I can find them, maybeI'm going to have to do.
It Got married when I was 30,had my son at 33.
And that was the first person Imet who looked like me.
He looked like a mini me, butslightly tanner it was.
It was a very interesting thingfor me because I never really
thought about that.
I never.
(27:03):
Well, with my neurodivergence Itend not to look at people's
faces.
I kind of have a little faceblindness so I never really
focused on that, but when I sawhim, all I could see was that
looks like me.
That's so weird and that reallyopened up more emotions for me
and more feelings.
Having that and bonding with him, my husband and my
(27:24):
father-in-law they ended up like2017, they got some.
My father-in-law bought us likeNational Geographic DNA kits to
see like our heritage.
He thought I'd be able toconnect with my birth family too
that way.
But he didn't understand that.
That wasn't the one that didthat.
It just gave you like yourpercentage of your this French
and this German.
After we took it, my husbandsaid, okay, you got your results
(27:46):
.
Did you get connected withanybody?
I said, well, that's not theright test.
And he said, well, we shouldget the right test.
How about you just get that?
So that was given to me forChristmas 2017.
And around February of 2018, Isaid you know what I'm going to
do it?
And they had like some sale forancestry.
It was like half off orsomething like that.
(28:07):
So I bought the kit.
I sat on it for a couple ofweeks.
I wasn't ready to take itbecause I still was hesitant to
let my DNA be out there withlike commercial whatever.
So I finally took it.
I was told that the results weregoing to take like six to eight
weeks.
I think I got them in four.
So I got the results in May andI was immediately matched with
(28:33):
three potential first cousins.
So I then got the littlenon-identified paperwork from my
file that my adoptive familyhad.
That was like the onlydocumentation I had, and then
you know just a general synopsisof description and you know
ethnic background and that kindof stuff.
So I kind of typed some of thatinto the Ancestry chat and I
(28:53):
messaged all three of the firstcousins and one I got no
response from.
The other one said hey, I'mgoing to check with my dad.
I don't know who you are or howyou could be connected to the
family.
The third one took a coupledays and then I got a message
back and she it was a firstcousin who knew my birth dad was
(29:14):
related to him and she gave memy birth mom's email address and
said you found them and this istheir contact info.
And I then spent hours justlike, okay, I got to write a
letter.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I got to write a good letter In my head.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I kind of been writing the letter for years but
not actually written it down.
So I sat and I think I stayedup late one night after my son
went to bed and I just typed itand I sent it.
I emailed it to her and shelikes to refer to it as my
resume letter.
So again, giving kind of the20%, the like you know, above
(29:54):
the ground overview of my life,and it really made it seem like
I had everything put togetherand everything was all good and
in my head everything was reallygood, like I was fine,
everything was good.
Turns out it wasn't, but that Ididn't unpack that for a year
or two after.
We then started exchangingemails and like we would email
(30:15):
like every day and we weresending messages back and forth.
And then I think so that was inMay and in June we had our
first phone call and then wewould talk to each other once a
week.
We had a set schedule of likeThursday, from like seven to
eight or eight to nine we wouldtalk, and that was the
opportunity for me to hear mymom and my dad's voice and for
(30:39):
them to hear mine.
And I remember you told melater that I sounded just like
one of my aunts and it weirdedyou out.
You're like Whoa, that's soweird, your voice is identical,
that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
It was crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
And that's like your first instance of genetic
mirroring and an outside of thebirth of your son.
So to hear that, you're like,oh well gosh, I wonder if that's
good or bad.
And but at the same time,you're like I sound like someone
in my family.
Yeah, or I look like someone inmy family, and it's such a like
out of body.
And I don't know how many timesI've shared this, so forgive me
(31:17):
for all those that have sharedit a few times.
I've had two instances of ohboy.
One was a biological sister.
When we were on a zoom call, myson came around the corner,
looked at her, looked at me, andwas freaked out because he'd
never seen anyone.
What's the story?
Yeah, he'd never seen anyonethat looked like me, Right?
I mean, he just hadn't, and soit was surreal.
(31:39):
The second one was so I'mpretty connected to my maternal
first cousins, two of them greatwomen, fantastic humans.
I don't know what we were doing.
We were doing Snapchat and wewere using one of the lenses and
the picture.
You know where it does like twopeople together and the picture
came back and where it's justreally showed your face and our
(32:00):
faces were almost the same.
Another very surreal moment,Like you can look at people and
say, oh yeah, he's got UncleJoe's eyebrows Right.
But to experience that as anadult is just such a surreal
feeling.
You know it really is and it'shard to explain.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's really bizarre and like within the first week
or so we had exchanged photosand I think in the beginning she
was a little guarded becauseyou know, you hear the stories
of the scams.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
I was a lot guarded.
I was a lot guarded, but assoon as she sent the pictures I
was like nope, that's mydaughter.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
There she is, she looks like her siblings.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yes, yes, we all got the same eyebrows.
They're like basicallyidentical, and our faces are
very, very similar and our haircolor is very, very close and
the family resemblance is very,very noticeable and that was a
little weird for me.
I was like holy honey.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, that's the other part too.
You look like me, no, no, no,you look like me.
Right, I was here first Justcheck the oh, you can't check
that birth certificate.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
But let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I was here first.
Oh, that's awesome, all right.
Well, you guys are in reunion.
I'm going to let you guysfigure out who talks next and
what you want to share, butlet's just kind of talk about,
maybe, at minimum, how long, andsome of the, some of the wins
(33:31):
and maybe some of the not somany wins or, you know, oh gosh,
expectations.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
And that's, that's the weird thing about both of us
.
Neither one of us went intoreunion with any kind of
expectation.
For me, she was always a baby.
I could not let her grow up inmy mind because I'm not there,
so how could she possibly begrowing up?
So she was a baby until she.
We contacted each other.
(34:01):
So I had zero.
I was just.
She could walk around, was likecool, I didn't have to change
your diapers, so I was just inawe of this wonderful woman.
Now in my life that was mydaughter, so I was just a God.
I was just just amazed.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So we had our first phone call in June of 2018.
And then, in July of 2018, wemet in person.
I go to when I was looking atcolleges, so many schools in
Michigan were sending me thoseyou know those big packets like
come to our school.
And I was what in the hell am Igoing to go to Michigan?
What's in Michigan?
And then work stuff happened.
(34:43):
Like my husband, he was goingto get a transfer and Detroit
was one of the options and we'relike we can buy a really nice
house, but I don't know whatkind of job we're going to get.
That's probably not going towork for me, so no.
And then my current job likethey kept trying to send me to
train people and do work indifferent places in Michigan and
I kept resisting.
But then, once I found her, Iwas like, okay, I'll go.
(35:04):
So I went and I just extendedmy trip a little bit so it
captured the weekend so I wasable to visit with them.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
And yes, it was a proud mother moment because she
got the company to pay for herreunion trip.
Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Sometimes business travel has a slight benefit.
Yes, yeah, no shame in that atall, Once you've been there for
a week.
If I have to stay another day,so be it, or two.
I'm not asking you yeah, I'mnot asking you, to pay for all
that stuff.
I'm already there that there'sa you know a fine line between
on that.
But that is one of the smallperks of business travel for
(35:42):
sure.
Well, let's cut on that weekend, First time meeting.
You're painting a very rosypicture.
We're way up here at a hundredthousand feet.
Was it rainbows and unicorns?
Was it awkward?
Like really weird?
You said, let's get to the root.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I thought I'd be clever and bring a it's a girl
balloon to her, because Ifigured she didn't have it.
You know a baby shower.
So I thought I'd be funny.
I'd be like, yeah, it's a girl,you know, celebrating that your
girl's here.
So I got a balloon and Ibrought it All your cards.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I brought some car, I brought like a Mother's Day
card and it was adorable.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
She had a birthday.
Because it was my birthday, shehad a birthday card for that
year and then she had anothercar to make up for all the cards
she missed because we weren'ttogether.
So I was so touched.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
But she just came and gave me the biggest hug.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Well, explain to.
So your dream was to knock onmy door.
Well, the balloon.
That was her dream.
Well, I heard the cars comingdown the road, the dogs are
going off.
I'm out the door.
I pull her out of the car,throw my arms around.
Yeah, I blew her surprisecompletely.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
And it was the longest hug I think I've ever
had in my life.
I'm not normally a hugger, Idon't usually like people to
touch me, but that I was like,okay, this is okay, I can do
this.
But then when we went in andyou sat and you kept staring at
my face you couldn't look awayand it was just.
I could tell that you were likeweirded out by it, but also
(37:18):
like you just wanted to absorbit and it was a little weird for
me because I don't like peoplelooking at me.
So but then you held my handand you kind of shared some
stuff and I could see the pain alittle bit and I had no concept
.
I hadn't done any research onadoption, didn't understand the
birth mother's perspective,didn't know what she'd gone
(37:38):
through, just went in totallyblind, had no fantasy of who
they were going to be oranything like that.
And we kind of got into knoweach other through email and
texting and phone calls and wejust sat and you brought me into
the back room and you showed melike my little baby bracelet
and the little picture and Icould see the like, the pain and
(37:58):
but the love and that youwanted to know me, but it was
still really painful and youexplained it to me later that at
some point me there was themost joyous and also the most
devastating, because it was likeI was lifting her up but also
stabbing her in the chest.
Just because of that that youknow both feelings.
So that was it really made myheart like reach out to you and
(38:21):
I just I wanted to be there foryou and I wanted to know you
because I thought you werepretty cool.
At one point I told her, evenif you weren't my mom, I would
want to be your friend.
I kind of like you and we'vekind of been doing that.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's so cool, that's really cool.
So how does that make you feelinto hearing that now, at this,
on this day?
Speaker 3 (38:41):
It's that that my daughter is in my life and that
she is my friend is.
You know, growing up, I alwayswanted a sister, I always wanted
a close friend, and I never hadone and I gave birth to my
friend.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
So I think that's actually a really important
distinction from the concept ofyour meeting for the second time
she's an adult and so to to tryto create a different
mother-daughter bond which wemight label as traditional.
(39:18):
It's difficult at this ageright, it's difficult as two
adults who have traversed lifepost that event Doesn't mean the
journey stopped, by no means amI indicating that but have
traversed life and livedexperience to create that very
(39:38):
mother, mothering, daughteringbond.
And so I wonder if you guyssubscribe to this theory a
little bit, which is, yeah,we're going to be friends
because at minimum, we can bereally good friends.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Well, I think we met as adults so we and we
communicated a lot explainingwho we are and we really opened
up to each other.
And you don't really trustpeople very much to open up, so
for you to let me in and for meto let you in, those were big
deals and it just kind ofhappened organically.
We didn't like make it happen,it just happened and we just
(40:13):
kind of bonded.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It was it was really nice to see and there is
something you know differentpersonalities get along better
with other personalities andfortunately, our personalities
just meld beautifully togetherand we are great friends.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And we learned that my neurodivergence likes to
communicate by text or emailinitially and does not enjoy
phone or in person very much.
So we communicated the rightway for me so I felt comfortable
and then I opened up to you andI think that made you feel
comfortable with opening up tome.
I think it was a lot of giveand take and just opening space
(40:53):
for the other to like be able towalk through and to explain and
to share.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
And because I wanted to know everything about Louise.
It was the first time in herlife she really had to think
about who she was, why she was,and she would, I and she'd have
to think about herself, and thenshe'd have this realization
while she was telling me.
So it was like it was verytherapeutic.
(41:22):
It was crazy.
She learned about herself byintroducing her self to me.
It was marvelous.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I had done zero self reflection and had not really
looked into my I just, you know,keep plugging away, keep going
forward.
So when she wanted to reallyunderstand and know I had to
then go back and go okay, why doI do that?
How, like I had to be able tounderstand it to be able to
explain it to her.
And then that helped meunderstand myself a lot more,
(41:50):
which is when I realized thatI'm neurodivergent and we have
other things too.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
But yes, I can relate to the reflection component of
it and then the answering of somany questions.
Putting all of the puzzlepieces together, that is, I
think, a very common thing.
That happens for adoptees whohave met or are in reunion.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Now I do want to say we've kind of painted a lovely
reunion and everything's goinggreat.
But I will say that the firstyear or two was rough.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Well, let's get to those rough parts, because
that's reality too.
Right, that is really reality.
We also know there are simple,cold heart truths to this that
are not rosy, not perfect.
So why don't you guys share alittle bit of those experiences
so that our listeners can gookay, it's okay if I experience
(42:44):
that or if I feel that way.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, in the beginning, when we were
communicating, there were timeswhere she would go dark.
It would be silence.
I would send messages and Iwouldn't get anything back for a
couple days and I was like, didI offend her?
Did I upset her?
What did I do wrong?
And then she would come backwhen she was ready.
But it was because she wasprocessing the trauma and the
(43:07):
pain and all that.
She needed time to kind of getit together to be able to come
back.
And she didn't have my trust.
She didn't trust me fully yet.
She wanted to, but it wasn'tthat.
She wanted to show it and buildit.
So I think that that was hardand I didn't understand what was
going on, because I reallydidn't understand the birth
(43:28):
mother perspective at all.
But, as you've opened up andshared with me, that just made
me want to know more and to besupportive of you and other
birth moms, because you guys gota broad deal too.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
When she did come into my life, I was ecstatic.
But I crashed hard and I waslike I don't know, if it hadn't
been for cycling I called itride and cry I'd get on a bike
and ride my ass off and just sob, just sob.
And there were times I couldn'trespond to her because I was
(44:00):
overwhelmed, and so we got to acode where I could tell her I'm
in a dark place, I'm going to begone for a while, I'll be back.
But I got a process.
I got to think I was so sad.
I was so sad because it had,all you know, 38 years locked
away and here it was, plunkedback in the middle of my face
(44:25):
and I had to deal with all thethings I never even thought
about dealing with.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Well, you were afraid of even telling your friends
and like I was visiting you andI was like, do you want me to
hide Because, like I look likemy siblings?
If someone walks up to us onthe street, they would go.
That's not so, and so who isthat?
Why do they look identical?
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Did you really seriously just say you asked if
you needed to hide.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
I said I would wear a bag and I told her in a way,
Because I knew like I could feellike the tension and like the
nervousness, and I was, likeit's no big deal to me, I don't
care, I'll throw a bag in myhead.
Whatever you need to do,however, we need to make this
work.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
And I was like absolutely not, I am proud that
you are my daughter.
I'm ashamed and mortified thatI went through what I did and I
lost you, but I'm very proudthat she's my daughter and no,
we're not hiding you.
And, yes, it was very difficulttelling my friends, oh, my God,
it was difficult, it was, itwas.
It was the worst, absolutelyworst.
(45:24):
And, yes, my colitis absolutelyflared.
It was bad, it was a summer ofhell and I wanted to know about
her.
So she would send things to me,like you know, pictures and
things, and not realizing that Iwas grieving for everything I
(45:46):
lost.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
She would.
I sent a form of a Dapti bingoto her, basically, but the birth
mother version.
So I was like checking off allthe wrong things because I was
doing what I thought was theright thing to do and the right
thing to say.
Because of what society?
Apparently, we all read thepamphlet as adoptees.
I don't remember reading it,but we all regurgitate the same
crap, the same rainbow andunicorn.
So I was doing what I thoughtwas the right thing and when I
(46:11):
stopped doing that, I stoppedhurting her so much and I
stopped causing more problemsand we were able to move forward
.
So that was big.
For when I realized that, I waslike, ooh, I need to stop that.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
And I was like a favorite moment.
A favorite moment, lisa Ann,was when she sent me the picture
with just texting she sends methe picture of her actual
adoption, with she's sittingwith the judge when they sign
the paper.
She sends this to me.
I threw my phone across theroom, I didn't say anything to
her, I just, you know, I knew Ihad to get my negative out, but
(46:47):
I never said, I never told her.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
I didn't know that.
That was a few years ago, yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
But I was like are you freaking, kidding me.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
So my idea and things like that.
So I had taken a snap of likefive or six photos that they had
sent me and I sent I and Ididn't really think about it or
pay attention.
I was just like, oh, these weresent to me.
They said that they might want,you know, she might want to see
them.
I'll take a picture and send itto her, not thinking like, oh,
that was, yeah, that could behurtful.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
I will give you some grace on that, because I don't
know if I had had those pictures, so I didn't have those
pictures.
I don't have very many picturesof me until I'm like six months
old and so, but if I had hadthose pictures, so I was a year
or older, I was, I was a father.
Yeah, I was right at this.
I was right at about the sixmonth mark.
(47:37):
I don't know if I would havehad at that time, any presence
of mind.
That's why I'm giving you graceto know not to send that.
Or to send that I wouldn't have.
I wouldn't have thought of itjust like, yeah, I wouldn't have
thought of it any differentlybecause there hadn't been enough
connection.
And again, depending on whereyou are in your journey, it
could be all the way back to youknow, where we have fear of
(47:58):
upsetting someone or we feelobligated to be happy, go lucky
and grateful.
I'm so thankful.
Thank you for giving me a way.
Thank you for relinquishing meRight.
Thank you, you gave me a betterlife, not a different life, but
a better life, even though wedon't know if it's better or
different.
We don't know yet.
And so, yeah, I'm going to giveyou just a little bit of grace.
Go ahead, take it.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
I fully admit that I made mistakes.
I made a lot of mistakes, Imean everybody does.
You're kind of figuring out.
There's no, there's no rulebookor or directions and
everybody's different and Ithink everybody needs to take
figure out how they communicateand how they can talk and open
up to other people.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
And the times that she did do those things again, I
never told her how it hurt me.
It didn't matter.
I mean, I was hurting so much.
Anyway, I mean, continue tostab me.
I still want to know you, Istill want to love you, I still
want to be there for you.
So it didn't matter what shesent me.
I was going to take it becauseit was worth it, because I
(48:57):
wanted to be with her.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, so it's the rewards and benefits right.
Pain, reward and benefit.
Yeah, and that pendulum swingson both sides of this
conversation.
It swings just as heavily forbirth mothers as it does
adoptees and everybody inbetween.
So well, this has been afantastic journey of your guys's
reunion and storiesindividually and bringing it
(49:22):
together.
It's hard, it's hard todetermine what are the right
things to do and the wrongthings to do, which is why we
consistently say every time, asa podcasting entity, we're just
talking about lived experience.
I mean, you mentioned it, thereis no book, there is no charter
.
You can listen to all of thegreat, fantastic podcasters out
(49:43):
there.
You're going to hear somecommon themes, some common
stories, and then you might findsomething that is different.
You're like, oh wow, I didn'tthink of that, I never thought
about sending the picture of thejudge day the day.
Oh, that's all I can say tothat right.
So well, how do you guys goforward?
How are you guys going tocontinue to go forward?
Speaker 2 (50:06):
We are spending a lot of time in learning about
adoption and how we can supportothers and how we can make
needed changes, because thecommon narrative is wrong and
it's not adoptees livedexperience.
It's what society and theorganizations and the religious
groups have told us.
(50:27):
That's what it is, and I thinkCOVID was actually a blessing in
disguise because it forced usto kind of be together.
We were actually on our way toan in-person support group in DC
when DC shut down for COVID in2020.
(50:47):
And Michigan wasn't really safefor her to go back to, so she
actually stayed with me for acouple months and we really got
to know each other.
We cooked in the kitchen, wedid things together and then we
found some of these onlinesupport groups.
We went to everything we could,just to learn and to be there,
and I just listened and didn'tsay anything and just tried to
(51:11):
absorb as much as I could, and Irecommend that to anybody Like
I went into Adopti Twitter and Ijust watched and read
everything.
I didn't get involved because Ididn't have the knowledge base
to be involved.
Anything I would have saidcould have been another Adopti
bingo type garbage that I haddone to her.
So I just sat back and Iwatched and I learned and I
found the people that spoke tome and wrote things that I was
(51:35):
feeling or thinking but couldn'tgive word to, and there's so
many of us out there that gothrough similar things.
There's common things in there,there's feelings and
connections and all that.
And I think, just finding thesupport groups getting out there
and then listening to otherpeople not just like adoptees, I
also listen to birth parentsand it really helps me
(51:57):
understand the picture betterand to be compassionate and
empathetic to everybody involvedin it.
You know, yep, cause there'sTrump, there's Hertz from on.
You know both sides, yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
COVID was great for us in that we spent time
learning about adoption land andI learned about true adoption.
True, you know their livedexperiences and I heard their
stories and I sat in supportgroups with them and I told them
my story so they couldunderstand what a birth mother
(52:30):
was like, cause you know you'resitting in a group talking to
someone who mother has deniedthem again knowing her, and my
heart bleed.
So I try to explain to theadoptee why their mom may be
doing it and the work that sheneeds to do to come to the table
to be supportive for the childshe lost.
(52:51):
So we learned a lot, welistened a lot.
We joined some organizations.
I came out of the fog, she cameout of the fog.
We have spent time working onOBC bills, writing letters,
making phone calls.
I my one.
A very another proud moment forme is, through the Catholic
mothers for truth andtransparency, with getting the
(53:15):
OBCs bills passed throughVermont and Connecticut.
They set out a call for adocument to be sent to the
Vatican and my essay is in theVatican right now to through the
Catholic mothers for truth andtransparency and I'm proud that
my words of my, my experience,are in the Vatican for people to
(53:35):
, to hear and see, and we wantto continue being there for
others, learning more and andhelping with with legislation
when we can.
I know I'm I've just gotinvolved.
I know Michigan has some a billcoming up and I I'm going to be
pounding those representativesand senators, driving them crazy
(53:56):
.
You've mentioned groups and I'mabout community, and so we met
at an event the friendships thatwe've made through Concern
United Birth Parents and throughNational Association of Adopted
People and Parents, andadoption network is amazing.
Shout out to Candace Cahill,marcy Keith Lee, jennifer
(54:19):
Falsing.
I mean, these are wonderful,wonderful people and you're
instantly connected because youunderstand each other.
But with these people that I'vemet through these support
groups is is just amazing, andthat we can lift all of
ourselves up with each other andfor each other is a beautiful,
(54:40):
beautiful thing, and I'm I'mproud to be part of this
community and I can honestly sayseveral years ago I would never
have said that about adoption,but I'm very proud to be with
adoptees and birth moms.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
And and and I just appreciate the.
I've had the opportunity toconnect with the international
community so I'm in contact withadoptees from the UK and
Germany and Australia and Canadaand there's so much commonality
Like, yes, we are the worst,we're very profit driven, but
they're also going through a lotof the same things that we are.
And some of them are gettingapologies and listening to this
(55:17):
Scottish apology and the Welshapology and Australian apology,
I didn't know that that wouldmean something and it wasn't
perfect.
Like they missed a lot and youknow, not very much given to the
adoptees, but, man, that thatwas important.
And like I can't imagine whatit would be like if we got that
in the US when the oh my Godlike mind blown that, but it
(55:41):
wouldn't be so meaningful for somany adoptees.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
So well, I think we're ready to close out for
today.
I want to thank you both forcoming on the show and being so
open and honest about yourexperience and sharing that with
this group of listeners.
We appreciate it.
I appreciate the connectionswe're making in the friendship
we're building, and so thank youvery much for being here today.
Thank you, thank you forlistening to today's episode.
(56:07):
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadocdcom.
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, Lisa Am.
Speaker 2 (00:13):
Within the first week or so we had exchanged photos
and I think in the beginning shewas a little guarded because
you know, you hear the storiesof the scams.
To be honest, I was a lotguarded.
Speaker 1 (00:36):
Welcome to today's episode of Wandering Tree
Podcast, and I have some specialguests with us, kind of taking
a little bit of a different spinon some of our conversations
For our listeners who have beenwith us multiple seasons kind of
dove a couple of times into thebirth mother perspective.
And today we're going to notonly dive into the birth mother
(00:58):
perspective but we're going tomarry that with the adoptee
perspective through a fantasticduo, linda and Louise.
Welcome, ladies.
Speaker 3 (01:08):
Well, thanks for having me, lisa Am, we're so
glad to be here with you.
Speaker 1 (01:12):
Yeah, we're glad to have you here as well For
today's conversation.
It might be in our listenersbest interest to kind of pare it
down to two different versionsof the story Linda, your story
as the birth mother, and thenLouise, your story as the
adoptee.
And then we'll bring it allback together at the end and
(01:33):
talk about where you guys arerelative to reunion and you know
how that's taken place, some ofthe expectations, some of the
challenges, and then you know,just to kind of set our
listeners up for success.
We'll end it off with a littlebit about you guys in terms of
advocacy and, as you guys know,I love to lift people up as it
(01:53):
relates to connection to thecommunity.
Well, we've got a lot to talkabout today.
We should just jump right in.
How about with you, linda?
Why don't we start out withyour story?
Speaker 3 (02:01):
My story.
Well, my story is notdissimilar to that's a real word
to other birth moms Seems like.
Well, most of us are creative,let's be honest with high aces
scores.
I was born into a house thatwas pretty volatile A lot of
emotional abuse, a lot ofbullying.
I had no grandparents, aunts,uncles, cousins.
(02:22):
I had one younger brother.
I had no mentors in my life, soI was a pretty solitary person
and with a lot of emotionaltoxicity running around the
house.
I kept to myself.
Unfortunately, I was an avidreader from an early age and so
stuck with my books and stuckwith my animals and stuck by
myself, pretty quiet, prettychill, pretty not engaged with a
(02:44):
lot of people because of thenonsense going on in my home.
I developed rather early,getting my period at 10 and
becoming the same size I am nowwhen I was in fifth or sixth
grade.
So my body jumped ahead and mymind soon followed and it was
the 70s.
Yes, I dated a lot in highschools.
I met Louise, my daughter, whoI last knew adoption in 1979 in
(03:10):
high school and we started todate after we graduated and
promptly got met pregnant rightin June.
So, yay, overachieving there,knew that I couldn't probably
stay there because my house wasso abusive.
Referring back to what I talkedabout early and I'm talking
about this for the first time,so I'm bearing my soul for you,
(03:32):
lisa and well, we love it.
Speaker 1 (03:34):
So take your time and take a deep breath and what we
might do just to kind of kind ofmove forward here a little bit
and give you a minute.
You've mentioned a couplethings, so I'm going to have you
go back a little bit forclarity and I think our
listeners would appreciate it.
You mentioned birth mothers,high ACEs score, and I'm not
(03:56):
sure everybody knows what thatis.
So do you want to give a littlemore context around that?
Then we'll give you the nextquestion to kind of inject just
off of that little bit we'vealready heard from you, which I
know my heart's starting to, youknow, come out in empathy, and
I know the listeners will too.
Speaker 3 (04:11):
Adverse childhood experience is what ACE stands
for, and a high score is due toemotional abuse, physical abuse,
sexual abuse, neglect, no adultsupervision.
No, there's a number of factorsthat will create a high ACE
score.
Basically, it's a.
It's a pretty failing of achildhood.
If you listen to other podcastsand your podcasts and you
(04:33):
listen to other birth mothers,you listen to their history and
there's no wonder they didn'thave love at home.
I didn't have love at home.
Yes, tendency is you're goingto look for love if you're not a
lot of self worth and you thinkthat you should save yourself
for something bigger and better.
So you just want to have somelove.
You know, love the one you'rewith kind of a deal.
Speaker 1 (04:55):
So say one more time what does ACEs stand for?
It means adverse childhoodexperience Adverse childhood
experience Okay, well, we needto measure ourselves on some
scale, I guess.
Right, and those types ofskills help us understand
ourselves in our past.
So with that I want to justconnect another dot real quickly
(05:18):
as well.
So you've met Luisa's with ustoday and you indicated that you
met and dated her birth fatherand married him.
Did I get that correctly?
Speaker 2 (05:29):
for clarification Well, the order was me being
born and then, a year later, yougot married?
Speaker 3 (05:36):
Yeah, we got married after we lost her.
Speaker 1 (05:38):
So jumping back into your story and knowing that you
are burying your soul and you'rein a safe place to do so, no
criticisms from me, clearly nocriticisms from Luisa.
I can see it right now.
Where do you want to pick upout?
Speaker 3 (05:52):
I talked with.
Jim is my husband's name, andand we, you know, we discussed
we're pregnant, what are wegoing to do?
And I said I couldn't go backto my house.
I mean, I was living in myhouse, but it was very toxic and
two years before I had had anabortion because I had been with
another young man and at thattime there was no discussion
(06:14):
about what I went through.
There was no therapy, there wasno, it was just what you did to
us and then it was shut downand we don't talk about it.
So that was, the abortionhappened and then it was put
away and we went on with ourlives.
Well, nothing that had changedin my house.
In fact, it became more toxicand met Jim, dot dot dot had
Louise, got pregnant with theLouise, so knew I couldn't go
(06:37):
home.
So and and I had gone to Jim'shouse it was a house that was,
there was a lot of laughter andit seemed like they loved each
other.
It was a big thing.
I, you know, I again I said Ihad no family.
He had a big family and itseemed like a loving, warm place
and I went over there quiteoften and got to know them.
Well, we spoke to them and theythis was in Michigan, they had
(06:59):
moved to Massachusetts and theysaid come to Massachusetts, stay
with us and we'll figure it out.
Jim drove me to Massachusettsin September when we were
starting college.
I dropped out and he left methere and then he went back to
Michigan to go to college.
I stayed with his family, histwo younger sisters and his
parents, who were alcoholics.
(07:21):
That I did not realize until Iwas there and it was a surprise,
and a really terrible surprise.
The two younger sisters and Ihelped each other because during
the day it wasn't a big deal,but the alcoholism came out at
night and there was viciousness.
The mother would either goafter the girl, one of the girls
, or myself.
(07:41):
The girls and I kind of hungtogether and I was in hell
because I had left the fryingpan and gotten into the into the
fire.
Long distance was a big deal.
So my way of communicating withany friends I had two friends
that I communicated.
It was with pen and paper andstamps, so I didn't have a lot
(08:01):
of support.
My family was out and so I wasliving in this hellacious place
just getting through, and theyhad already decided what was
going to happen.
They.
I was told when I got there thatI was going to give my baby
away and that's what the churchwanted and that's what had been
decided.
I thought I was going to besafe, was not?
Jim returned after his semesterof school.
(08:25):
Louise was born in the end ofMarch.
I had her.
I went through Catholic socialservices what to do with this
pregnancy?
Of course the counselor, socialworker, did the usual.
You know the usual story thatyou hear from birth mothers.
You know this is the only thingto do.
It's the right thing to do.
Other You're not worthy of this.
You know another family iswaiting.
(08:45):
You're going to love your childso much you're going to give it
away because that makes sense.
Just the usual stuff that weusual coercion that that these
agencies use was used on me andI thought she was my friend.
I didn't realize that I shouldprobably be talking about this
and having some therapy and anddealing with it.
But no, it was just to get thebaby, get there, get me to sign
(09:06):
the papers and be done with it.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
I heard a lot of themes and I just want to pick
them out a little bit.
So the theme of isolation, tobegin with, in your home,
someone that had made a previousdecision relative to birth or
not, that maybe it had not beenworked through.
The need for love, feeling safe.
So now I've got, we have thetheme of I need to be safe.
(09:31):
Then I heard trust in there.
Speaker 3 (09:33):
Maybe if you would take a few more minutes in that
uncomfortable space and talk alittle bit more about the
coercion piece of that, that'sthe funny thing is that time and
I know that's due due to traumaand it's so frustrating because
there's things I try toremember and I can't.
I can't tell you exactly howmany times I went, but I know it
(09:54):
was a number of times.
So I ended up in Massachusettsin September and I had her in
March.
So I don't remember if I sawthem, this social worker, once a
month.
I don't remember.
I do remember being told manytimes don't have the things that
I need to have a baby, youdon't have the skills.
There are other people waiting.
(10:15):
This is an answer to theirprayers, it was.
It was Catholic social services.
So, yeah, it was a lot ofreligious stuff placed on me.
I was last then and for aperson who's come from a home
that was like that.
And then I go to a safe housewhere there I'm not Catholic and
I'm less than, and then thesocial worker, who is supposed
to be a professional helping me,is Saying that I'm less than
(10:37):
and I don't have anything tooffer and that it will be okay.
She told me you will forgetthis, you'll move on with your
life, it will be a nothing,don't even talk about it.
So that's a Professional sayingto disassociate awesome.
Speaker 1 (10:51):
You're like check, I got you, I heard you, did you
Forget?
And what was life like for thethe subsequent years?
Speaker 3 (10:59):
Yeah, well, when I gave birth to Louise, I was
alone in the room.
No one had prepared me forchildbirth, not not the mother
that in the home that I stayedwith, not the social worker, not
anybody.
So I'm in the hospital, I haveher.
It was a difficult birth.
I'm alone and of course, afterI have her, I'm put in a room
away from the you know, generalPopulation.
(11:21):
So I'm again being kept away.
I'm, you know, you're ashamedand don't be with other people.
Nurses would come in and sneakin and sneak out, and I only got
to see Louise once.
You know, held her and Icounted your toes and her
fingers and I looked at her andI held her and I sobbed and I
sobbed and I Sobbed and I didn'twant her to go.
(11:42):
When she, when I carried her, Isang to her, I loved her, I,
she was my world because I hadnothing else going at that point
.
It was.
I didn't want her to leave.
My body didn't want her toleave, and then she was gone.
And then I go back to the houseand this family becomes hostile
and they say I have to leaveimmediately and go back to my
(12:05):
house.
I'm traumatized to leave mydaughter.
I've been told not to sayanything, not to talk to anyone.
No one wants to talk to me.
I get on a train, I go toMichigan, I come into my house
and it was brutal.
All I heard was what do you?
What are people going to thinkabout us?
You know, it was all aboutAppearances for their sake.
Never asked how I was, neveranything.
(12:27):
To this day I'll have you knowno one, none of the pain the
grandparents Ever asked me how Iwas and how I was doing over
the years.
Speaker 1 (12:36):
Not, not a one that's sad in itself, but one of the
things I heard you say is thatyou would sing to her while in
utero.
You, you know you loved her.
That is a warming thing foradoptees to hear hard and
warming because it does allow Toconnect to our feelings of loss
(12:58):
with your feelings of loss, youknowing it wasn't that it
wasn't that easy.
Speaker 3 (13:04):
Oh, I even took the diaper off and looked.
I wanted to see everything.
I wanted to make sureeverything was right.
Did you name her?
Yes, I did.
Speaker 1 (13:11):
Her name was Jennifer and on her she has her father's
last name and the reason Iasked if you named her was
because we do end up havingmultiple names His adoptees and,
as you're, as you're holdingsomeone and naming to you,
that's probably who she alwayshas been and to be honest, she
was always my Jennifer, alwaysfrom the I was pregnant, I knew
(13:34):
I was gonna name her Jennifer.
Speaker 3 (13:35):
It was an important name to me for other people that
were in my life, and I knew shewas gonna be down.
Speaker 1 (13:42):
Let's, let's move forward to you married.
You knew what did life looklike.
Speaker 3 (13:52):
Life was Well after I lost her, all right.
So I had no religion in my life.
It didn't take, and alcohol anddrugs don't take for me.
For some reason I couldn't hidebehind those things.
I couldn't use them as crutches, so food became my crutch and I
quickly gained 70 pounds.
I Worked seven days a week.
(14:14):
You know.
We got married.
We put our lives together.
You know what went on.
I kept busy.
I had Family I'm putting an airquotes.
Family was important to myhusband.
So, yes, his family was in ourlives and my family was in our
(14:36):
lives as and I tried to be theperfect daughter-in-law and I
Forgot Everything that they putme through when I lived with
them and the nonsense that aidedme a lot through the years.
I it's only just been recentlysince Louise found me that I've
(14:56):
understood why that was so hard.
Because I had locked that down.
I Never told anyone about beingpregnant and losing Louise no
one.
There were only two friendsthat knew and I locked it down
good, locked it, ate it, ate,ate my way there, waited to have
another child because Didn'tthink I was worthy to have
(15:19):
another child.
And then I did get pregnant andmy body didn't want to let that
baby go.
I, I.
That was a terrible deliveryand I know it was because my
body was like, no, you're notgetting it let and you're not
gonna lose another child.
So I try to hang on to herinside of me.
(15:39):
After I had her, I Lost all myweight and I discovered exercise
and that's what saved my lifeit.
As long as I was busy doingsomething physical, I could turn
my brain off and not thinkabout it because, yeah, louise
was always on my mind.
You know, holding another baby.
I thought about my baby.
I thought the baby I lost andand I know that I Wanted to
(16:02):
mother the hell out ofeverything.
But I knew that I there was apart of me being held back
because of what I Went throughand I know my two children that
I did raise suffer from that.
They they had a great child,that I was the hell of a mom,
but emotionally I was not asfully there as that I should
have been because of what I hadbeen through.
(16:23):
They grew up knowing that theyhad a sister and I went on with
life but continued toInternalize the, the loss.
I would look at the moon andthink of her and hope she was
looking at me.
I'm not going to be exercising.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
That's how.
Speaker 3 (16:42):
I dealt with it, never talked to anyone and of
course you know Autoimmunedisease wise, all that stress,
all that wear and tear, Ideveloped ulcerative colitis and
I that is an absolutely anautoimmune disease that is
directly related to mind, body,emotional stress and there's no
doubt that I developed thatbecause of what I've been
(17:06):
through well, I heard in thatthat you would look at the moon
and think of her, as you know,under the context of is she also
looking at the moon, trying tocreate that connection right.
Speaker 1 (17:20):
But I also heard that you didn't stop thinking about
her and I'm sure those feelingsebbed and flowed and there were
Intense times.
I would suspect birthday waspretty intense for you.
I would also suspect mother'sday was pretty intense for you,
and holidays, even with you knowa fully.
You know with your family,writing regardless of that.
(17:43):
It doesn't diminish any of that, but we just know Through
conversations like this andlived experiences are common
traits.
I think now's a good time totransition our conversation over
to Louise, because you two havea really cute demeanor.
(18:05):
I wish that the listeners couldsee you, but what others aren't
seen and I'm going to convey,is the whole time you were
talking, linda Louise waslooking at you in 100% support.
It was a fantastic thing to see.
So, with that said, what I wantto do next is Louise.
(18:26):
Let's talk about this storyfrom your perspective.
You're the adoptee, your life,your challenges.
Go for it.
Speaker 2 (18:37):
Okay, I was born in 1980 in Massachusetts and it was
a closed adoption.
I always knew I was adopted andfive and a half years after my
adopted parents got me they gotanother child, a boy.
So I had a younger brother whowas adopted, but not for my mom,
(19:01):
and I would consider myself thegood adoptee.
I was the one that peoplepleased, I made sure everybody
was okay and I was kind of mybrother's keeper a little bit.
When he got in trouble I wouldget in trouble because I didn't
stop him from doing someshenanigans.
So he was the one that actedout and was the angry adoptee
(19:25):
and I was more the good adoptee.
At the time I didn't understandwhat that was.
I've only recently realizedwhat that is.
Family that had me, they lovedme, but they didn't get me or
try to get me or understand me,and that is all stuff that I'm
unpacking.
In the last two, three yearssince reunion I got heavily
(19:48):
involved in Martial Arts, whichhelped me get through everything
, because that was my safe place, that was my person.
My teacher was just everythingto me.
He helped me with leadershipand kind of just finding who I
was and who I wanted to be andjust being strong.
(20:10):
So I really appreciate him andI think that helped me get
through what a lot of adopteesgo through and I kind of missed
that a little bit because of himand the safe space that he gave
me.
Speaker 1 (20:24):
Well, let's let you catch your breath, kind of
collect your thoughts a littlebit, and I'm going to ask a
couple of different questions.
The good adoptee fair number ofus Toad the line.
Usually that's what it means,right, Very empathetic to
everybody else, very much thecaretaker.
But in all that you weretalking about things you were
(20:46):
going through and so what weresome of your internal thoughts
that you weren't expressingduring that time period?
Through this mentorship youwere able to start working it
out through your body and that.
But just kind of share with ussome of your internal thoughts
that you weren't able to talkthrough and with your adopted
(21:06):
family.
Speaker 2 (21:07):
I always knew I was different.
I always knew that they didn'tget me, so I just kind of did
the things that were expected ofme to make sure that I didn't
get trouble or that I didn'tmake any waves or cause any
problems.
They were dealing enough withmy adopted brother in terms of
behavior issues and things likethat, and I recently have
learned that I am neurodivergent.
(21:28):
I always thought I was a littleodd, a little weird, but now
everything makes a whole lotmore sense.
So if I had been with my birthfamily, I think they would have
realized that more and helps meto understand it and kind of
work with it a little bit, asopposed to trying to fit into
the role that my adopted familyhad kind of put me in.
(21:49):
There were certain expectationsthat I had to live up to and it
wasn't like they forced me todo it, but being the good
adoptee, I wanted to do that topeople please.
So when they had parties Iwould do all the help with the
prep and help with the breakdown.
And only recently I've kind ofdiscovered or realized that I
(22:11):
kind of felt like I was ondisplay because they would have
these big family events or bigparties or whatever with like
neighbors and everything, and itwas always to kind of like show
me off.
You know, show my me and mybrother off a little bit, and I
never.
I'm an introvert and I don'treally like being the center of
attention for anything, so italways made me very
(22:31):
uncomfortable, but they neverreally saw that.
It was more.
They wanted to have thegatherings, they wanted to have
these get togethers with like 30, 40 people and it just was very
overwhelming for me and Ialways would like shut down for
a couple days after and I neverreally understood that until the
last couple of years.
So it's been kind of like a bigawakening.
(22:52):
But all the way growing up Iknew I was adopted but I had
this real drive to send a letterto my birth parents.
I wanted them to know I wasalive and that I was okay.
I didn't understand why I hadthat drive, but I really really
knew that that was what I neededto do and I was told at 18, I
could reach out to them.
(23:12):
So I contacted the adoptionagency when I was 18 and they
had indicated that the recordsare closed but if I wanted to I
could send a letter and it mayor may not go to them and I also
had to pay a large fee of like300 or $400 for a letter that
might go somewhere or it mightnot and I just at the time I
(23:34):
would tell me if you can forwardit.
Why would I put the time andeffort in writing a letter and
send it to you and pay the moneyso that?
Speaker 1 (23:40):
just didn't sit well with me.
I want to go backwards a littlebit, not much, but just a
little bit.
And you mentionedneurodivergent.
So what were the behaviors ofyour childhood that you now have
figured out through adulthoodthat have lent you to that?
Can you explain that concept alittle bit more to some of our
(24:02):
listeners?
Speaker 2 (24:03):
So for me and really my mom has been the one that
helped me to realize a lot ofthis she noticed early on when I
found her that I give a scriptof about 20% of who I am and I
can give that no problem toanybody, no big deal.
It's getting beneath that 20%that it's really hard for me to
(24:26):
let people in.
I like to be alone, I like toread, I like to.
You know, I did a lot of sports, I kept busy, kept active, but
I didn't have a lot of reallyclose, deep friendships In
college.
I had a couple of really goodroommates and college friends
that I'm still friends with tothis day and they kind of took
(24:47):
me under their wing and I kindof say I was sheltered, like
self-imposed shelter.
I kind of created a shellaround myself and like
everything in the outside worldwas happening but it wasn't
happening to me.
I was there and I participatedbut it wasn't like it didn't
come in.
Of course we all took abnormalpsych in college so everyone was
diagnosing each other.
(25:07):
So I believe OCD and some otheranal retentive properties were
kind of discussed and thrownabout.
They did help to socialize me alittle bit more and make me
more open to letting people in.
I think I never really feltcomfortable sharing with my
adoptive family very much aboutwho I was, what my emotions were
(25:30):
, anything like that.
Sometimes I would, but often Ididn't.
And I did run into the issueswhere sometimes I would tell my
adoptive mom something and thenshe would tell everybody else
and so like, where's the trustin that?
So that made me pull back alittle bit more and the college
friends helped to open me up andkind of get me to do more
(25:51):
social things.
Speaker 1 (25:52):
Okay, so that's really a good rundown of that
and let you pick back up theletter.
Okay, so the letter Aftercollege.
Speaker 2 (26:01):
Massachusetts had passed a law and I read in the
newspaper my adoptive mom hadread in the newspaper and sent
it to me that they were going tomake a registry so I could
register to be connected with mybirth family.
But I was like, well, let mewait until it's actually on the
books for a little bit.
Make sure there's some people,because if I go in now I'm going
to be the only one on there.
(26:21):
Let me see how this goes.
Well, it turns out.
A couple years later thefunding ran out or something
happened with it and that wholeregistry went away.
So that was kind ofdisappointing and I thought,
well, that shop's gone.
Then I started to hear aboutDNA and I'm like, hmm, I don't
really want my genetic materialout there, but if that's the
(26:42):
only way I can find them, maybeI'm going to have to do.
It Got married when I was 30,had my son at 33.
And that was the first person Imet who looked like me.
He looked like a mini me, butslightly tanner it was.
It was a very interesting thingfor me because I never really
thought about that.
I never.
(27:03):
Well, with my neurodivergence Itend not to look at people's
faces.
I kind of have a little faceblindness so I never really
focused on that, but when I sawhim, all I could see was that
looks like me.
That's so weird and that reallyopened up more emotions for me
and more feelings.
Having that and bonding with him, my husband and my
(27:24):
father-in-law they ended up like2017, they got some.
My father-in-law bought us likeNational Geographic DNA kits to
see like our heritage.
He thought I'd be able toconnect with my birth family too
that way.
But he didn't understand that.
That wasn't the one that didthat.
It just gave you like yourpercentage of your this French
and this German.
After we took it, my husbandsaid, okay, you got your results
(27:46):
.
Did you get connected withanybody?
I said, well, that's not theright test.
And he said, well, we shouldget the right test.
How about you just get that?
So that was given to me forChristmas 2017.
And around February of 2018, Isaid you know what I'm going to
do it?
And they had like some sale forancestry.
It was like half off orsomething like that.
(28:07):
So I bought the kit.
I sat on it for a couple ofweeks.
I wasn't ready to take itbecause I still was hesitant to
let my DNA be out there withlike commercial whatever.
So I finally took it.
I was told that the results weregoing to take like six to eight
weeks.
I think I got them in four.
So I got the results in May andI was immediately matched with
(28:33):
three potential first cousins.
So I then got the littlenon-identified paperwork from my
file that my adoptive familyhad.
That was like the onlydocumentation I had, and then
you know just a general synopsisof description and you know
ethnic background and that kindof stuff.
So I kind of typed some of thatinto the Ancestry chat and I
(28:53):
messaged all three of the firstcousins and one I got no
response from.
The other one said hey, I'mgoing to check with my dad.
I don't know who you are or howyou could be connected to the
family.
The third one took a coupledays and then I got a message
back and she it was a firstcousin who knew my birth dad was
(29:14):
related to him and she gave memy birth mom's email address and
said you found them and this istheir contact info.
And I then spent hours justlike, okay, I got to write a
letter.
Speaker 1 (29:31):
I got to write a good letter In my head.
Speaker 2 (29:32):
I kind of been writing the letter for years but
not actually written it down.
So I sat and I think I stayedup late one night after my son
went to bed and I just typed itand I sent it.
I emailed it to her and shelikes to refer to it as my
resume letter.
So again, giving kind of the20%, the like you know, above
(29:54):
the ground overview of my life,and it really made it seem like
I had everything put togetherand everything was all good and
in my head everything was reallygood, like I was fine,
everything was good.
Turns out it wasn't, but that Ididn't unpack that for a year
or two after.
We then started exchangingemails and like we would email
(30:15):
like every day and we weresending messages back and forth.
And then I think so that was inMay and in June we had our
first phone call and then wewould talk to each other once a
week.
We had a set schedule of likeThursday, from like seven to
eight or eight to nine we wouldtalk, and that was the
opportunity for me to hear mymom and my dad's voice and for
(30:39):
them to hear mine.
And I remember you told melater that I sounded just like
one of my aunts and it weirdedyou out.
You're like Whoa, that's soweird, your voice is identical,
that's crazy.
Speaker 3 (30:52):
It was crazy.
Speaker 1 (30:53):
And that's like your first instance of genetic
mirroring and an outside of thebirth of your son.
So to hear that, you're like,oh well gosh, I wonder if that's
good or bad.
And but at the same time,you're like I sound like someone
in my family.
Yeah, or I look like someone inmy family, and it's such a like
out of body.
And I don't know how many timesI've shared this, so forgive me
(31:17):
for all those that have sharedit a few times.
I've had two instances of ohboy.
One was a biological sister.
When we were on a zoom call, myson came around the corner,
looked at her, looked at me, andwas freaked out because he'd
never seen anyone.
What's the story?
Yeah, he'd never seen anyonethat looked like me, Right?
I mean, he just hadn't, and soit was surreal.
(31:39):
The second one was so I'mpretty connected to my maternal
first cousins, two of them greatwomen, fantastic humans.
I don't know what we were doing.
We were doing Snapchat and wewere using one of the lenses and
the picture.
You know where it does like twopeople together and the picture
came back and where it's justreally showed your face and our
(32:00):
faces were almost the same.
Another very surreal moment,Like you can look at people and
say, oh yeah, he's got UncleJoe's eyebrows Right.
But to experience that as anadult is just such a surreal
feeling.
You know it really is and it'shard to explain.
Speaker 2 (32:18):
It's really bizarre and like within the first week
or so we had exchanged photosand I think in the beginning she
was a little guarded becauseyou know, you hear the stories
of the scams.
Speaker 3 (32:31):
I was a lot guarded.
I was a lot guarded, but assoon as she sent the pictures I
was like nope, that's mydaughter.
Speaker 1 (32:39):
There she is, she looks like her siblings.
Speaker 2 (32:41):
Yes, yes, we all got the same eyebrows.
They're like basicallyidentical, and our faces are
very, very similar and our haircolor is very, very close and
the family resemblance is very,very noticeable and that was a
little weird for me.
I was like holy honey.
Speaker 1 (32:59):
Yeah, that's the other part too.
You look like me, no, no, no,you look like me.
Right, I was here first Justcheck the oh, you can't check
that birth certificate.
Speaker 3 (33:09):
But let me tell you.
Speaker 1 (33:10):
I was here first.
Oh, that's awesome, all right.
Well, you guys are in reunion.
I'm going to let you guysfigure out who talks next and
what you want to share, butlet's just kind of talk about,
maybe, at minimum, how long, andsome of the, some of the wins
(33:31):
and maybe some of the not somany wins or, you know, oh gosh,
expectations.
Speaker 3 (33:39):
And that's, that's the weird thing about both of us
.
Neither one of us went intoreunion with any kind of
expectation.
For me, she was always a baby.
I could not let her grow up inmy mind because I'm not there,
so how could she possibly begrowing up?
So she was a baby until she.
We contacted each other.
(34:01):
So I had zero.
I was just.
She could walk around, was likecool, I didn't have to change
your diapers, so I was just inawe of this wonderful woman.
Now in my life that was mydaughter, so I was just a God.
I was just just amazed.
Speaker 2 (34:21):
So we had our first phone call in June of 2018.
And then, in July of 2018, wemet in person.
I go to when I was looking atcolleges, so many schools in
Michigan were sending me thoseyou know those big packets like
come to our school.
And I was what in the hell am Igoing to go to Michigan?
What's in Michigan?
And then work stuff happened.
(34:43):
Like my husband, he was goingto get a transfer and Detroit
was one of the options and we'relike we can buy a really nice
house, but I don't know whatkind of job we're going to get.
That's probably not going towork for me, so no.
And then my current job likethey kept trying to send me to
train people and do work indifferent places in Michigan and
I kept resisting.
But then, once I found her, Iwas like, okay, I'll go.
(35:04):
So I went and I just extendedmy trip a little bit so it
captured the weekend so I wasable to visit with them.
Speaker 3 (35:12):
And yes, it was a proud mother moment because she
got the company to pay for herreunion trip.
Yeah, that's pretty awesome.
Speaker 1 (35:19):
Sometimes business travel has a slight benefit.
Yes, yeah, no shame in that atall, Once you've been there for
a week.
If I have to stay another day,so be it, or two.
I'm not asking you yeah, I'mnot asking you, to pay for all
that stuff.
I'm already there that there'sa you know a fine line between
on that.
But that is one of the smallperks of business travel for
(35:42):
sure.
Well, let's cut on that weekend, First time meeting.
You're painting a very rosypicture.
We're way up here at a hundredthousand feet.
Was it rainbows and unicorns?
Was it awkward?
Like really weird?
You said, let's get to the root.
Speaker 2 (36:02):
I thought I'd be clever and bring a it's a girl
balloon to her, because Ifigured she didn't have it.
You know a baby shower.
So I thought I'd be funny.
I'd be like, yeah, it's a girl,you know, celebrating that your
girl's here.
So I got a balloon and Ibrought it All your cards.
Speaker 3 (36:20):
Yeah, and.
Speaker 2 (36:20):
I brought some car, I brought like a Mother's Day
card and it was adorable.
Speaker 3 (36:26):
She had a birthday.
Because it was my birthday, shehad a birthday card for that
year and then she had anothercar to make up for all the cards
she missed because we weren'ttogether.
So I was so touched.
Speaker 2 (36:38):
But she just came and gave me the biggest hug.
Speaker 3 (36:40):
Well, explain to.
So your dream was to knock onmy door.
Well, the balloon.
That was her dream.
Well, I heard the cars comingdown the road, the dogs are
going off.
I'm out the door.
I pull her out of the car,throw my arms around.
Yeah, I blew her surprisecompletely.
Speaker 2 (36:57):
And it was the longest hug I think I've ever
had in my life.
I'm not normally a hugger, Idon't usually like people to
touch me, but that I was like,okay, this is okay, I can do
this.
But then when we went in andyou sat and you kept staring at
my face you couldn't look awayand it was just.
I could tell that you were likeweirded out by it, but also
(37:18):
like you just wanted to absorbit and it was a little weird for
me because I don't like peoplelooking at me.
So but then you held my handand you kind of shared some
stuff and I could see the pain alittle bit and I had no concept
.
I hadn't done any research onadoption, didn't understand the
birth mother's perspective,didn't know what she'd gone
(37:38):
through, just went in totallyblind, had no fantasy of who
they were going to be oranything like that.
And we kind of got into knoweach other through email and
texting and phone calls and wejust sat and you brought me into
the back room and you showed melike my little baby bracelet
and the little picture and Icould see the like, the pain and
(37:58):
but the love and that youwanted to know me, but it was
still really painful and youexplained it to me later that at
some point me there was themost joyous and also the most
devastating, because it was likeI was lifting her up but also
stabbing her in the chest.
Just because of that that youknow both feelings.
So that was it really made myheart like reach out to you and
(38:21):
I just I wanted to be there foryou and I wanted to know you
because I thought you werepretty cool.
At one point I told her, evenif you weren't my mom, I would
want to be your friend.
I kind of like you and we'vekind of been doing that.
Speaker 1 (38:34):
That's so cool, that's really cool.
So how does that make you feelinto hearing that now, at this,
on this day?
Speaker 3 (38:41):
It's that that my daughter is in my life and that
she is my friend is.
You know, growing up, I alwayswanted a sister, I always wanted
a close friend, and I never hadone and I gave birth to my
friend.
Speaker 1 (38:57):
So I think that's actually a really important
distinction from the concept ofyour meeting for the second time
she's an adult and so to to tryto create a different
mother-daughter bond which wemight label as traditional.
(39:18):
It's difficult at this ageright, it's difficult as two
adults who have traversed lifepost that event Doesn't mean the
journey stopped, by no means amI indicating that but have
traversed life and livedexperience to create that very
(39:38):
mother, mothering, daughteringbond.
And so I wonder if you guyssubscribe to this theory a
little bit, which is, yeah,we're going to be friends
because at minimum, we can bereally good friends.
Speaker 2 (39:52):
Well, I think we met as adults so we and we
communicated a lot explainingwho we are and we really opened
up to each other.
And you don't really trustpeople very much to open up, so
for you to let me in and for meto let you in, those were big
deals and it just kind ofhappened organically.
We didn't like make it happen,it just happened and we just
(40:13):
kind of bonded.
Speaker 3 (40:15):
It was it was really nice to see and there is
something you know differentpersonalities get along better
with other personalities andfortunately, our personalities
just meld beautifully togetherand we are great friends.
Speaker 2 (40:31):
And we learned that my neurodivergence likes to
communicate by text or emailinitially and does not enjoy
phone or in person very much.
So we communicated the rightway for me so I felt comfortable
and then I opened up to you andI think that made you feel
comfortable with opening up tome.
I think it was a lot of giveand take and just opening space
(40:53):
for the other to like be able towalk through and to explain and
to share.
Speaker 3 (41:00):
And because I wanted to know everything about Louise.
It was the first time in herlife she really had to think
about who she was, why she was,and she would, I and she'd have
to think about herself, and thenshe'd have this realization
while she was telling me.
So it was like it was verytherapeutic.
(41:22):
It was crazy.
She learned about herself byintroducing her self to me.
It was marvelous.
Speaker 2 (41:30):
I had done zero self reflection and had not really
looked into my I just, you know,keep plugging away, keep going
forward.
So when she wanted to reallyunderstand and know I had to
then go back and go okay, why doI do that?
How, like I had to be able tounderstand it to be able to
explain it to her.
And then that helped meunderstand myself a lot more,
(41:50):
which is when I realized thatI'm neurodivergent and we have
other things too.
Speaker 1 (41:54):
But yes, I can relate to the reflection component of
it and then the answering of somany questions.
Putting all of the puzzlepieces together, that is, I
think, a very common thing.
That happens for adoptees whohave met or are in reunion.
Speaker 2 (42:10):
Now I do want to say we've kind of painted a lovely
reunion and everything's goinggreat.
But I will say that the firstyear or two was rough.
Speaker 1 (42:20):
Well, let's get to those rough parts, because
that's reality too.
Right, that is really reality.
We also know there are simple,cold heart truths to this that
are not rosy, not perfect.
So why don't you guys share alittle bit of those experiences
so that our listeners can gookay, it's okay if I experience
(42:44):
that or if I feel that way.
Speaker 2 (42:46):
Well, in the beginning, when we were
communicating, there were timeswhere she would go dark.
It would be silence.
I would send messages and Iwouldn't get anything back for a
couple days and I was like, didI offend her?
Did I upset her?
What did I do wrong?
And then she would come backwhen she was ready.
But it was because she wasprocessing the trauma and the
(43:07):
pain and all that.
She needed time to kind of getit together to be able to come
back.
And she didn't have my trust.
She didn't trust me fully yet.
She wanted to, but it wasn'tthat.
She wanted to show it and buildit.
So I think that that was hardand I didn't understand what was
going on, because I reallydidn't understand the birth
(43:28):
mother perspective at all.
But, as you've opened up andshared with me, that just made
me want to know more and to besupportive of you and other
birth moms, because you guys gota broad deal too.
Speaker 3 (43:40):
When she did come into my life, I was ecstatic.
But I crashed hard and I waslike I don't know, if it hadn't
been for cycling I called itride and cry I'd get on a bike
and ride my ass off and just sob, just sob.
And there were times I couldn'trespond to her because I was
(44:00):
overwhelmed, and so we got to acode where I could tell her I'm
in a dark place, I'm going to begone for a while, I'll be back.
But I got a process.
I got to think I was so sad.
I was so sad because it had,all you know, 38 years locked
away and here it was, plunkedback in the middle of my face
(44:25):
and I had to deal with all thethings I never even thought
about dealing with.
Speaker 2 (44:29):
Well, you were afraid of even telling your friends
and like I was visiting you andI was like, do you want me to
hide Because, like I look likemy siblings?
If someone walks up to us onthe street, they would go.
That's not so, and so who isthat?
Why do they look identical?
What's going on?
Speaker 1 (44:45):
Did you really seriously just say you asked if
you needed to hide.
Speaker 2 (44:49):
I said I would wear a bag and I told her in a way,
Because I knew like I could feellike the tension and like the
nervousness, and I was, likeit's no big deal to me, I don't
care, I'll throw a bag in myhead.
Whatever you need to do,however, we need to make this
work.
Speaker 3 (45:04):
And I was like absolutely not, I am proud that
you are my daughter.
I'm ashamed and mortified thatI went through what I did and I
lost you, but I'm very proudthat she's my daughter and no,
we're not hiding you.
And, yes, it was very difficulttelling my friends, oh, my God,
it was difficult, it was, itwas.
It was the worst, absolutelyworst.
(45:24):
And, yes, my colitis absolutelyflared.
It was bad, it was a summer ofhell and I wanted to know about
her.
So she would send things to me,like you know, pictures and
things, and not realizing that Iwas grieving for everything I
(45:46):
lost.
Speaker 2 (45:47):
She would.
I sent a form of a Dapti bingoto her, basically, but the birth
mother version.
So I was like checking off allthe wrong things because I was
doing what I thought was theright thing to do and the right
thing to say.
Because of what society?
Apparently, we all read thepamphlet as adoptees.
I don't remember reading it,but we all regurgitate the same
crap, the same rainbow andunicorn.
So I was doing what I thoughtwas the right thing and when I
(46:11):
stopped doing that, I stoppedhurting her so much and I
stopped causing more problemsand we were able to move forward
.
So that was big.
For when I realized that, I waslike, ooh, I need to stop that.
Speaker 3 (46:23):
And I was like a favorite moment.
A favorite moment, lisa Ann,was when she sent me the picture
with just texting she sends methe picture of her actual
adoption, with she's sittingwith the judge when they sign
the paper.
She sends this to me.
I threw my phone across theroom, I didn't say anything to
her, I just, you know, I knew Ihad to get my negative out, but
(46:47):
I never said, I never told her.
Speaker 2 (46:48):
I didn't know that.
That was a few years ago, yeah.
Speaker 3 (46:52):
But I was like are you freaking, kidding me.
Speaker 2 (46:55):
So my idea and things like that.
So I had taken a snap of likefive or six photos that they had
sent me and I sent I and Ididn't really think about it or
pay attention.
I was just like, oh, these weresent to me.
They said that they might want,you know, she might want to see
them.
I'll take a picture and send itto her, not thinking like, oh,
that was, yeah, that could behurtful.
Speaker 1 (47:16):
I will give you some grace on that, because I don't
know if I had had those pictures, so I didn't have those
pictures.
I don't have very many picturesof me until I'm like six months
old and so, but if I had hadthose pictures, so I was a year
or older, I was, I was a father.
Yeah, I was right at this.
I was right at about the sixmonth mark.
(47:37):
I don't know if I would havehad at that time, any presence
of mind.
That's why I'm giving you graceto know not to send that.
Or to send that I wouldn't have.
I wouldn't have thought of itjust like, yeah, I wouldn't have
thought of it any differentlybecause there hadn't been enough
connection.
And again, depending on whereyou are in your journey, it
could be all the way back to youknow, where we have fear of
(47:58):
upsetting someone or we feelobligated to be happy, go lucky
and grateful.
I'm so thankful.
Thank you for giving me a way.
Thank you for relinquishing meRight.
Thank you, you gave me a betterlife, not a different life, but
a better life, even though wedon't know if it's better or
different.
We don't know yet.
And so, yeah, I'm going to giveyou just a little bit of grace.
Go ahead, take it.
Speaker 2 (48:19):
I fully admit that I made mistakes.
I made a lot of mistakes, Imean everybody does.
You're kind of figuring out.
There's no, there's no rulebookor or directions and
everybody's different and Ithink everybody needs to take
figure out how they communicateand how they can talk and open
up to other people.
Speaker 3 (48:35):
And the times that she did do those things again, I
never told her how it hurt me.
It didn't matter.
I mean, I was hurting so much.
Anyway, I mean, continue tostab me.
I still want to know you, Istill want to love you, I still
want to be there for you.
So it didn't matter what shesent me.
I was going to take it becauseit was worth it, because I
(48:57):
wanted to be with her.
Speaker 1 (48:59):
Yeah, so it's the rewards and benefits right.
Pain, reward and benefit.
Yeah, and that pendulum swingson both sides of this
conversation.
It swings just as heavily forbirth mothers as it does
adoptees and everybody inbetween.
So well, this has been afantastic journey of your guys's
reunion and storiesindividually and bringing it
(49:22):
together.
It's hard, it's hard todetermine what are the right
things to do and the wrongthings to do, which is why we
consistently say every time, asa podcasting entity, we're just
talking about lived experience.
I mean, you mentioned it, thereis no book, there is no charter
.
You can listen to all of thegreat, fantastic podcasters out
(49:43):
there.
You're going to hear somecommon themes, some common
stories, and then you might findsomething that is different.
You're like, oh wow, I didn'tthink of that, I never thought
about sending the picture of thejudge day the day.
Oh, that's all I can say tothat right.
So well, how do you guys goforward?
How are you guys going tocontinue to go forward?
Speaker 2 (50:06):
We are spending a lot of time in learning about
adoption and how we can supportothers and how we can make
needed changes, because thecommon narrative is wrong and
it's not adoptees livedexperience.
It's what society and theorganizations and the religious
groups have told us.
(50:27):
That's what it is, and I thinkCOVID was actually a blessing in
disguise because it forced usto kind of be together.
We were actually on our way toan in-person support group in DC
when DC shut down for COVID in2020.
(50:47):
And Michigan wasn't really safefor her to go back to, so she
actually stayed with me for acouple months and we really got
to know each other.
We cooked in the kitchen, wedid things together and then we
found some of these onlinesupport groups.
We went to everything we could,just to learn and to be there,
and I just listened and didn'tsay anything and just tried to
(51:11):
absorb as much as I could, and Irecommend that to anybody Like
I went into Adopti Twitter and Ijust watched and read
everything.
I didn't get involved because Ididn't have the knowledge base
to be involved.
Anything I would have saidcould have been another Adopti
bingo type garbage that I haddone to her.
So I just sat back and Iwatched and I learned and I
found the people that spoke tome and wrote things that I was
(51:35):
feeling or thinking but couldn'tgive word to, and there's so
many of us out there that gothrough similar things.
There's common things in there,there's feelings and
connections and all that.
And I think, just finding thesupport groups getting out there
and then listening to otherpeople not just like adoptees, I
also listen to birth parentsand it really helps me
(51:57):
understand the picture betterand to be compassionate and
empathetic to everybody involvedin it.
You know, yep, cause there'sTrump, there's Hertz from on.
You know both sides, yeah.
Speaker 3 (52:09):
COVID was great for us in that we spent time
learning about adoption land andI learned about true adoption.
True, you know their livedexperiences and I heard their
stories and I sat in supportgroups with them and I told them
my story so they couldunderstand what a birth mother
(52:30):
was like, cause you know you'resitting in a group talking to
someone who mother has deniedthem again knowing her, and my
heart bleed.
So I try to explain to theadoptee why their mom may be
doing it and the work that sheneeds to do to come to the table
to be supportive for the childshe lost.
(52:51):
So we learned a lot, welistened a lot.
We joined some organizations.
I came out of the fog, she cameout of the fog.
We have spent time working onOBC bills, writing letters,
making phone calls.
I my one.
A very another proud moment forme is, through the Catholic
mothers for truth andtransparency, with getting the
(53:15):
OBCs bills passed throughVermont and Connecticut.
They set out a call for adocument to be sent to the
Vatican and my essay is in theVatican right now to through the
Catholic mothers for truth andtransparency and I'm proud that
my words of my, my experience,are in the Vatican for people to
(53:35):
, to hear and see, and we wantto continue being there for
others, learning more and andhelping with with legislation
when we can.
I know I'm I've just gotinvolved.
I know Michigan has some a billcoming up and I I'm going to be
pounding those representativesand senators, driving them crazy
(53:56):
.
You've mentioned groups and I'mabout community, and so we met
at an event the friendships thatwe've made through Concern
United Birth Parents and throughNational Association of Adopted
People and Parents, andadoption network is amazing.
Shout out to Candace Cahill,marcy Keith Lee, jennifer
(54:19):
Falsing.
I mean, these are wonderful,wonderful people and you're
instantly connected because youunderstand each other.
But with these people that I'vemet through these support
groups is is just amazing, andthat we can lift all of
ourselves up with each other andfor each other is a beautiful,
(54:40):
beautiful thing, and I'm I'mproud to be part of this
community and I can honestly sayseveral years ago I would never
have said that about adoption,but I'm very proud to be with
adoptees and birth moms.
Speaker 2 (54:53):
And and and I just appreciate the.
I've had the opportunity toconnect with the international
community so I'm in contact withadoptees from the UK and
Germany and Australia and Canadaand there's so much commonality
Like, yes, we are the worst,we're very profit driven, but
they're also going through a lotof the same things that we are.
And some of them are gettingapologies and listening to this
(55:17):
Scottish apology and the Welshapology and Australian apology,
I didn't know that that wouldmean something and it wasn't
perfect.
Like they missed a lot and youknow, not very much given to the
adoptees, but, man, that thatwas important.
And like I can't imagine whatit would be like if we got that
in the US when the oh my Godlike mind blown that, but it
(55:41):
wouldn't be so meaningful for somany adoptees.
Speaker 1 (55:44):
So well, I think we're ready to close out for
today.
I want to thank you both forcoming on the show and being so
open and honest about yourexperience and sharing that with
this group of listeners.
We appreciate it.
I appreciate the connectionswe're making in the friendship
we're building, and so thank youvery much for being here today.
Thank you, thank you forlistening to today's episode.
(56:07):
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadocdcom.
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