June 15, 2023 • 29 mins
What happens when two domestic adoptees and passionate artists join forces in advocating for their community? In a captivating episode of Wandering Tree Podcast, we're thrilled to have Rebecca Autumn Sansom and Liz DeBetta sharing their stories, artistry, and insights on the adoptee experience.
Liz, who was adopted at birth, has been using her talents as a writer to share her journey and healing process in her upcoming book, while Rebecca, a dedicated documentary filmmaker, is working on a mission to incorporate more adoptees' voices and create connections. In this heartwarming conversation, we explore the importance of community building, connection, and empathy to heal the primal wound of adoption. We also discuss the power of art in understanding and supporting the adoptee community, and the exciting collaboration between Rebecca and Liz – Operation Fog Lift. So, join us as we celebrate these unique stories, experiences, and the transformative power of art and connection.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:07):
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann, andit was a very emotional
experience for me as an adopteewatching you.
know you, rebecca, go throughall of that journey that you
(00:29):
captured in that way.
Welcome to today's episode ofWandering Tree Podcast.
(00:49):
I'm so excited and we're goingto jump right in with
introducing our guests today,and we have a return member from
season two, episode eightRebecca Autumn Sampson.
And welcome.
welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks for having me, Lisa Ann.
It's so good to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It's so good to see you too, and with us we have a
new guest.
Her name is Liz DeBetta, and sowe would like to welcome you
also, liz, to the show today.
Welcome, thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, i'm so excited about thisepisode.
We have a lot of things goingon And I want to just maybe do a
(01:27):
little bit of a calibration onstories.
I think a good number of thelisteners are familiar with
Rebecca, but, liz, would youmind telling us just a little
bit about your story?
your background is it relatesto this adoptee community.
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So I am a domestic adoptee.
I was technically adopted atbirth, but I spent several
months in interim foster carebefore going home with my
adoptive parents in 1977.
And so I have a sort of biggaping hole at the beginning of
my life that I don't really knowmuch about.
(02:07):
I've been in reunion with myfirst mom for about five or six
years now, And that is a slowlyprogressing relationship, but a
good one.
I write a lot about myexperience as an adoptee.
I publish a lot about that.
I in fact I have a book comingout which is my gift to the
(02:30):
adoptee community.
It's called adult adoptees andwriting to heal, migrating
toward wholeness.
So that should be coming out inthe next, probably in about the
next month, which I am superexcited about.
And a big part of my work is inaddition to writing and the sort
of creative process of usingwriting as a tool for healing
(02:53):
with other adoptees.
I also have written andperformed a one woman show
called Unmothered, which waspart of my dissertation work
several years ago, and it issomething that I feel really
strongly about.
It's a really powerful piece ofperformance, work that I just
won an award for back inNovember at the United Solo
(03:14):
Theater Festival I won BestAutobiographical Show, so I
think of my performance work asadvocacy and activism for the
adoptee community to help peopleunderstand the ways that trauma
really interrupts and disruptsour lives, and so it's really
important for me to be as publicas I can with my storytelling.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Well, that's a lot.
I love it, and I'm going topick a couple of things out of
that One.
We have something in commonthat I didn't realize as we were
prepping for our conversation,with that interim period, and I
loved how you say it's like theescaping hole.
I call it my life gap.
That is literally what I'vecalled it, and it's about the
same duration.
(03:55):
So it's weird to hear somebodyelse talk about it And as soon
as you said it, i'm like, yeah,i get it And I know exactly why
she brought it up.
So that's number one in goingback a little bit.
So what I also like to hearabout you is you're unmothered
and your kind of your creativeprocess to get stuff out into
(04:18):
the ether, as I like to call it,of our community.
So kind of help me dissertation.
For what are you, what's yourprofession?
Is there a connection to thatas well?
that would be of interest forour listeners today.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah.
So I got my PhD ininterdisciplinary studies,
humanities and culturespecifically, and my emphasis
was women's and gender studies,and I got a certificate in
creative writing And my PhDprogram was really focused on
social justice.
And so I had the uniqueopportunity to take my
(04:55):
background as a performer and awriter and kind of smash it
together in this creative,theoretical project, which
originally was going to be amemoir.
And then, as I started doing myresearch and reading more and
understanding more about myselfand taking more classes, i
realized that I had been writingpoetry my whole life, since i
(05:19):
was about 14 years old and i was, and that was a way of helping
me manage really intense anddifficult emotions, and so we
came pretty clear to me that Ineeded to do something along
that line.
And then the idea morphed intowriting and performing a one
woman show and actually embodiedperformance is a research
(05:40):
method.
You can use performance tocreate empathy And engage in
discussion around difficultissues, and at the time i was
teaching.
I was teaching writing at auniversity and not teaching at
the moment i, but i work As anadvocacy program manager at the
university of michigan.
So just a little bit about myprofessional background at the
(06:01):
moment, and because of myAdvocacy and activism work, i
joined the center for theeducation of women plus at u of
m and i take leadership overtheir advocacy initiatives.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Sounds great, what i'm also picking up here and
some of the kind of transition alittle bit to rebecca, because
i've been a while since you'vebeen on the show.
Season two, episode eight.
Go listen to that, if youhaven't already.
What?
what's been going on in yourworld?
i mean, we, we've had somereally cool stuff going on.
I think you've had a showyou've.
You launched kind of an awardstype thing, if i remember
(06:37):
correctly, or do i have thatright kind of fill us in what's
been going, what's new.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yes, i've been working tirelessly on the wavy
awards for the.
This will be the third year andyou know how things just get
Bigger and more overwhelming.
But thanks for remembering thatthat'll be in november this
year in new york city.
If there any music lovers, i'mgoing to try to incorporate as
many adoptees into the show thisyear that I can, which is kind
(07:03):
of a neat segue into like whatLiz was saying.
And why we bonded is because,like this artistry and like
tying in academic Researchmethodologies into something
like a play or my passion,documentary filmmaking, is kind
of the same mode that we are into create these conversations.
(07:25):
So that's why we developed whatwe're going to talk about soon
And I have been trying toimplement more in person
screenings.
So Lisa and we just saw eachother at the untangling
conference, right, and that waskind of the first Streaming of
the documentary.
And of course, for those of youwho are new or don't know, i'm
the filmmaker behind reckoningwith the primal wound Which was
(07:49):
me trying to put this moreacademic work into movie format,
because that's my medium and itwas so nice to see people in
person to talk afterwards.
It's a different vibe and I loveit.
So now i'm I really think thatthrough music there's so many
adoptees who use songwriting andproduce whole albums about
(08:12):
their experience and I wouldlove to like think about that
going forward and I sort of havelike that's a new project with
an adoptee that I just met,we've known each other and then
it's one of those things whereyou realize they're also adopted
like years into yourrelationship and so thinking
about like Mary Goshay and thefoundling and her whole album
(08:35):
about that and Your adoption to,and then like I even have right
here David, right except me,his CD called my adopted curse.
So there's so many musiciansand it's like should we have a
concert series?
like we could I don't know, butI do want to have do a tour of
(08:56):
the film for sure struggle bustour and then operation fog lift
, which is what Liz and I arepartnering, is happening the
summer, so that's what's beengoing on.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It's awesome and what I want I want to, before we go
too far there into theannouncement, i do want to get a
little since.
How did you two meet?
I mean, the creative connectionis clear.
How did you guys truly justconnect up?
I think that that, because thatis so important in our
community, as you guys know, wehave a co friend, jennifer Diane
ghost, and she is the podcasterfor Once upon a time in
(09:31):
adopting land, her and I do alot of what I'd say co, lifting
each other up.
I'm all about that lift eachother up, don't tear each other
down.
But it's just nice to makeconnection and being community.
So how did you two connect sothat you could start
collaborating and we can talkabout the upcoming announcement?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah.
So I actually reached out toRebecca I don't remember it was
a Facebook message or a messageon Instagram, because I had been
posting a bunch of stuff aboutunmothered after I won the award
And obviously had been seeingthe film everywhere and had seen
(10:09):
clips of it and I was likeRebecca, we need to talk,
because I think we need tocombine forces and, like, do
something together.
I just had this like deep,intuitive feeling that we needed
to connect and we needed to dosomething.
So she was like, yeah, let'sconnect absolutely.
(10:31):
And so we started talking and Isaid I think I think your film
in my play Are like perfectcompanions and I would love to
think about doing some kind ofan event where we could do a
screening of your film, do aperformance of my play and and
then have a talk back and reallyget you know, get people in
(10:54):
community together, witnessingboth of these really powerful
art forms.
And then, in the course of theconversations we started having,
we figured out that we aregetting similar reactions to our
work, that people are like whoa, i never thought of it this way
.
I I didn't know.
That's a piece of informationabout adoptees or adoption that
(11:16):
I had never considered right Andthere's also like a really deep
emotional reaction to.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, like what I get is raw and poetic And that is
unmothered.
Like after I watched the play Iwas like oh, somehow Liz
portrays the same.
Like you get those sameadjectives when you see
unmothered and it's reallypowerful.
It's an hour long, So I feellike they're bite-sized enough
that it's going to be a nicecollaboration of your two?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Well, let's go ahead, then, andwhy don't we talk about an
upcoming event that you guyswant to kind of get out there?
We're, you know, we're workingthrough a lot of different
activities, your promoactivities.
That's why you're here today aswell, and let's go ahead.
Let's who wants to just drop itout there and say this is what
(12:09):
we're doing, this is what it'scalled And this is when it is.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
We can both go, but for some background I'm from
Nashville and a lot of the castis in Nashville or can get to
Nashville.
I've edited most of the film atthis place called the filming
station, which DemetriaCaledimus owns.
She's my Emmy award winningjournalist, mentor, friend and
(12:37):
is letting us use the venue tohost both of these things,
because it has a little theaterand it also has a black box
studio where we can do a play.
They've done a play in thereand it also has this beautiful
backyard so we can have areception.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It's in the middle of downtown Nashville, yeah, So so
I don't have any ties toNashville, but I will now
through Rebecca.
But, yeah, so we are planningto head to Nashville on August
5th and 6th of 2023, coming upin the next couple months, to do
the first, we hope, of manyoperation fog lift events, the
(13:21):
sort of concepts behindoperation fog lift to many
brainstorming conversations, andthis is like how our creative
brains work and another reasonwhy we are so sympathetic always
, my mother would say is we cameup with operation fog with
because we were trying to thinkabout, like what is it that?
(13:42):
what is it that we're doingwith our art?
Like what is it that our art isasking people to do?
right?
So We really we figured out like, oh, what are what we're doing
with this work, with these, withthese pieces of Creative
offerings, is we're helpingpeople to come out of the fog?
(14:02):
We're helping people tounderstand the ways that
Adoption has impacted us andmany other people, the way that
trauma has Interrupted anddisrupted us, and we're trying
to put the pieces back together.
And and so We came up withoperation fog lift because we
were like this is a really greatway to to get people to come
(14:24):
together In community to view,i'm gonna say the same story.
It's not the same story, butthe foundational Elements of the
story are there.
Right to the explore thisconcept of the primal wound
wound in two different ways andto have a really like Visceral
experience around, like what itmeans to Gravel with coming out
(14:49):
of the fog for us as adopteesbut then helping other people
along the way and not evenAdoptes or people in the
constellation.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
But I was thinking the audience would be hey, bring
You know your friends andfamily to this.
This is more a societal foglift, yes, primal wound theory,
and that's what I hope we can dowith it, because neither of our
projects are too Heavy-handed,they're very personal stories
that you can't really argue with, and not super academic, you
(15:20):
know.
So it's what do you think wesaying?
excited?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
one to be helping move this forward and to be even
slightly connected.
So thank you for thatopportunity.
I love it.
A couple of different thingsjust to kind of think about.
I actually went to one of yourscreening events.
Rebecca was in Tulsa with ourfriends, the adopted chameleon
(15:44):
and Emma Stevens, and I took afriend, so I'm just gonna share
this a little bit out into the.
I don't know if I've evertalked about it in Previous
episodes.
If I have, i apologize.
I'm just gonna restate it.
I took one of my friends and itwas a very emotional experience
for me as an adoptee Watching.
(16:05):
You know, you, rebecca, gothrough all of that journey that
you captured in that way and tobe able to Not only empathize
but have lived portions of thoseexperiences myself, and I know
others in the room felt that waytoo, and so you know, there
were times when I was cryingalmost uncontrollably and but
not like, like, not in the sensethat I couldn't be comforted,
(16:28):
it was just tears just rollingdown my face.
Right, we, we drove, my friendand I, we drove from the Dallas
Fort Worth area up to the Tulsaarea and, and so then, where we
went after that did a little bitof sightseeing, blah, blah blah
.
But what's really interestingis we drove, we had to drive
back, and on the way back, myfriend, who is one of my dearest
(16:51):
, closest friends and has liveda lot of my 20 past 25 years of
life, said to me Why were you soemotional?
and that it just took me back.
I wasn't expecting her to askthat question and I said because
I felt her pain.
Number one, i felt all of thethings that she was going
(17:12):
through.
I've been in some of thosesituations not all of them and
It is hard, i believe, fornon-adopties, and it doesn't
mean that they don't try, butthey don't always have the
capacity to really sit in ourexperience and To understand it.
They can be empathetic andsympathetic, but they still.
(17:35):
There's just still somethingmissing in the connection of the
synapses of the brain wherethey can say, yeah, i get it
right, because it's just, it'sjust that weird little nuance.
So anyway, wow, i'm excitedabout this event And that I'm
excited about this event forthat reason, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It could Do you think that she got it more.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, she has a story .
She doesn't talk about it.
It's really interesting and ifshe listens to this episode
girlfriend, you know who you areand I apologize.
So her first husband was anadoptee and so she has her own,
like little Connection to thatas well, and we've talked
through kind of like what he hasdone in his life And you know
some of the things that maybedrove them apart and maybe why.
(18:20):
So she definitely gets it in inthe context of that.
Now let's fast forward.
I have one of my really goodfriends here the mon.
She's been on the show before,so the mon's here for this
weekend and we were talkingabout untangling the roots very
similar Rebecca, like reallylike, what was the download?
and then we were talking aboutAugust and so I've invited her
to come in August And she hasaccepted that invitation and
(18:44):
she's she's in it, she's equallyin it with me, and and so she's
now excited to come as well.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Oh my gosh, you know what?
and with this is Y'all saw thatI kind of put it on Instagram
what two days ago.
People are really excited aboutthis.
People are excited about inperson In general, but the
reaction is really positive andI'm excited and thank you for
bringing your friend.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I'm so excited to meet well so you've mentioned a
little bit of the logistics.
Do you guys mind going into alittle bit more around the
details of the event for ouraudience So that we can start,
you know, grabbing on to themand bringing them into the fold
with us?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, so, like I said that the dates are August 5th
and 6th, we'll be starting at 3o'clock in the afternoon and we
will do a screening of the film,then there'll be a short
intermission, probably about ahalf an hour, and then with time
for some mingling and a littlereception in the backyard and
(19:46):
and then followed by performanceof my show, and then the final
Activity of the day, so to speak, will be a talk back with
Rebecca and I and the audience,so that folks have some time to
ask us questions, to processwhat they've just been part of,
(20:07):
and for us to sort of engage inthe really important piece of
this, which is to educate peopleand to empower adoptive voices
and to start to shift thenarrative Right.
And I'm going to let Rebeccajump in with other details too,
because I know there's more.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yeah, thanks Liz.
No, that was the run of show.
I'm very excited because somany cast members are in
Nashville so I'm not going toannounce who all's definitely
coming, but it's the most as faras cast members go Probably
Jill, definitely me And thenI'll announce those as it gets
(20:49):
closer.
It's an intentionally intimatevenue in space.
It's very dear to my heart,this place, and I just announced
that I'm taking waitlist orwe're taking waitlist emails.
Now we haven't fully announcedtickets but they will be on
(21:11):
event right shortly within themonth.
So if you want to be the firstto know, you can email me at
info at reckoning with theprimal woundcom and just tell me
that you are interested ingetting there.
And then, of course, i want todo a struggle bus situation
where I get a party bus and indowntown Nashville if anybody's
(21:32):
been there recently, it'sbananas, so you can rent a
tractor with a hot tub on theback.
I would like to do that Andthat might be an add on.
So if anybody wants to thinkabout that and get in that mood
And the whole thing is like, andI think my role that I play in
this space is healing kind ofthrough connection and fun.
(21:58):
So, like I say, the opposite offeeling isolated and like you
don't belong is feeling like youdo belong.
And so community building andlistening to pop music or riding
around on a tractor and alittle pool or hot tub is my
idea of that memory that I wantto build with people.
(22:18):
I want to do that too.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, and I like where you guys are going with
the event, just knowing how theyhave started.
Rebecca from the, you know youronline presence and you're
showing of your movie through.
You know the pandemic and howthat was getting out there,
transitioning into live eventsWe just spoke of.
You know my experience at one.
I know you had one in the LAfootprint, so I am so excited to
(22:44):
have one in Tennessee.
I live in Tennessee And I'mclose with Jennifer Diane ghost
and we mentioned her justpreviously as well.
She and I are working also on,you know, all kinds of things
that we can do to bolster thecommunity here in Tennessee.
It is so good to have a memberof the community that you can
connect with that you.
(23:05):
You are able to do these typeof things.
So, yeah, i'm excited It'sgoing to be a Nashville.
It makes it easier for me toparticipate and attend I and I'm
excited to see how it's growingand and the community is
building around these types ofevents and doing things not only
just associated with the eventbut your struggle bus idea,
(23:27):
which then creates moreconnection with one another.
And you know we then lean oneach other for all of the
various stages of our journey.
Some days we're having a greatday, that's just humanity, and
some days we're having, you know, quite honestly, a crap day And
we're just like I am reallystruggling per year struggle bus
with this anxiety that I carry.
(23:47):
That I now know through all ofmy other journey that is part of
my trauma response And no one,no one, really understands that
in the context of the why I gotthere.
They do understand anxiety andPTSD and trauma response.
There are a lot of people thatdo right, they have nothing to
do with adoption.
So I want to be clear It's notus, it's not segmented only to
(24:11):
adoptees or for sure.
The reality is how did you gethere and understanding that and
being that, you know, living inthat shared life journey
experience So cool.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Which is totally yeah .
Why I did that?
just for anybody who doesn'tknow why I did the struggle
buses?
because I got a party bus forall the influencers to go to LA
and then we all started talkingabout our problems.
So it turned into the strugglebus, like I had the who was on
the bus Garrett Maroschi, DariaRottenberg, Sierra Watts, Raya
Snow and so more like adoptees,but gravitated towards talking
(24:42):
about these issues and we wereall going through something.
But being on there and then wejust crank.
The pop music was cathartic andlike kept us in a positive space
And I feel like that's my roleand I wanna do that more.
And then, talking aboutJennifer Diane Ghoston and you,
(25:02):
Lisa Ann, I tell everyone whenthey ask me what they can do,
you know, to heal their primalwounds.
After I tell them that if theysee the film 25 times they'll be
good that they should listen tothe podcast, because that's
where it keeps going And that iscontinual.
So it's like wandering tree andonce upon a time in Adopt D
(25:24):
land, Jennifer Diane Ghoston'spodcast are crucial and they are
the recommended resources onthe website what people can do
for post support and to continuebuilding the community.
So thank you so much foreverything you're doing And I'm
glad we're collaborating.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, i am too.
I am too.
You know.
There's so many good resourcesout there.
You've hit on a couple of them.
I appreciate that.
Shout out I know Jennifer doesas well and books, man books are
becoming very powerful for ourcommunity as well.
I've done the love bomb ofbooks That's what I call it
where I sat in 20, latter 2020,2021 and I read nothing but
(26:02):
Adopt D memoirs, or to the pointof where I got in a state of
I'm exhausted, and so I love thediversity of ways to find
outlets.
That's where I'm going withthis The diversity of ways to be
in community, build communityand outlets.
So, yeah, podcast books thatare upcoming in Liz's many
(26:25):
others.
There is not enough.
That's my message.
When people ask, do you feellike you're competing And I'm
sure you guys get this too Doyou feel like you're competing
with one another?
Nope, i don't feel that at all.
In fact, i feel quite theopposite.
It's just all coming togetherand I see our community just
really rising to some reallygood, healthy places.
(26:46):
So August 5th and 6th inNashville, the event is called
Operation Foglift.
It will start around the threeo'clockish timeframe, is what I
heard.
It is a multi hour event.
So screening of Reckoning withthe Primal Wound, a mini
(27:07):
intermission reception.
The unmothered in person liveexcited.
I have not seen that.
I'm excited, liz.
And then a talk back event, acollaboration, a little bit of
how we're all talking to oneanother.
So a little more community Andthen, if it works out, maybe
some socializing.
Yep, that's it.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
I always want people to feel like they belong
somewhere, and so please come tothis or at least be in touch
for future things.
Operation Foglift is kind of aplay into the branding of Adopti
Army, so we have everybodybehind us and we do have like
supports in communities.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, we're literally dropping ourselves into
communities to bring these twopieces of art to.
We're creating a movement right, and, just like you said, lisa,
a few minutes ago, all theAdoptis that are producing
podcasts, that are publishingmemoirs and writing and other
(28:14):
documentary films and otherartists in the Adoptis community
what's happening is there's amovement to, as I said before,
shift the narrative right Thatwe're all grown adults now and
saying wait a minute, i've beenquiet for too long And I do that
(28:35):
through my own work, Like if Ican get up on stage and show you
my story, then maybe somebodyelse leaves feeling empowered
too.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, that's so powerful.
Well, ladies, I'm lookingforward to August.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
And I say one more thing, because the one thing
that we need to do this is help.
So if folks are listening andyou are local to the Nashville
area and maybe you have connectsbecause you're in the
restaurant industry and youmight wanna donate some food or
drinks, or if you want to make afinancial gift to us to get
(29:12):
this going, we would soappreciate that too, so you can
email us for those things.
but this is the beginning ofwhat we hope will be something
big, and so we're looking forsome event sponsors and we can
send you more information aboutthat.
But if you can help, let usknow.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
All right, ladies.
You guys have a great day andthank you again for your time.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadoptdcom.
This has been KINE��超 וRecognize this job.
(29:55):
Wk Pontius sich k.
Welcome to Wandering Tree Podcast.
I am your host, lisa Ann, andit was a very emotional
experience for me as an adopteewatching you.
know you, rebecca, go throughall of that journey that you
(00:29):
captured in that way.
Welcome to today's episode ofWandering Tree Podcast.
(00:49):
I'm so excited and we're goingto jump right in with
introducing our guests today,and we have a return member from
season two, episode eightRebecca Autumn Sampson.
And welcome.
welcome to the show today.
Speaker 3 (01:04):
Thanks for having me, Lisa Ann.
It's so good to see you.
Speaker 1 (01:07):
It's so good to see you too, and with us we have a
new guest.
Her name is Liz DeBetta, and sowe would like to welcome you
also, liz, to the show today.
Welcome, thank you so much.
I'm so happy to be here.
Yeah, i'm so excited about thisepisode.
We have a lot of things goingon And I want to just maybe do a
(01:27):
little bit of a calibration onstories.
I think a good number of thelisteners are familiar with
Rebecca, but, liz, would youmind telling us just a little
bit about your story?
your background is it relatesto this adoptee community.
Yeah, sure.
Speaker 2 (01:44):
So I am a domestic adoptee.
I was technically adopted atbirth, but I spent several
months in interim foster carebefore going home with my
adoptive parents in 1977.
And so I have a sort of biggaping hole at the beginning of
my life that I don't really knowmuch about.
(02:07):
I've been in reunion with myfirst mom for about five or six
years now, And that is a slowlyprogressing relationship, but a
good one.
I write a lot about myexperience as an adoptee.
I publish a lot about that.
I in fact I have a book comingout which is my gift to the
(02:30):
adoptee community.
It's called adult adoptees andwriting to heal, migrating
toward wholeness.
So that should be coming out inthe next, probably in about the
next month, which I am superexcited about.
And a big part of my work is inaddition to writing and the sort
of creative process of usingwriting as a tool for healing
(02:53):
with other adoptees.
I also have written andperformed a one woman show
called Unmothered, which waspart of my dissertation work
several years ago, and it issomething that I feel really
strongly about.
It's a really powerful piece ofperformance, work that I just
won an award for back inNovember at the United Solo
(03:14):
Theater Festival I won BestAutobiographical Show, so I
think of my performance work asadvocacy and activism for the
adoptee community to help peopleunderstand the ways that trauma
really interrupts and disruptsour lives, and so it's really
important for me to be as publicas I can with my storytelling.
Speaker 1 (03:35):
Well, that's a lot.
I love it, and I'm going topick a couple of things out of
that One.
We have something in commonthat I didn't realize as we were
prepping for our conversation,with that interim period, and I
loved how you say it's like theescaping hole.
I call it my life gap.
That is literally what I'vecalled it, and it's about the
same duration.
(03:55):
So it's weird to hear somebodyelse talk about it And as soon
as you said it, i'm like, yeah,i get it And I know exactly why
she brought it up.
So that's number one in goingback a little bit.
So what I also like to hearabout you is you're unmothered
and your kind of your creativeprocess to get stuff out into
(04:18):
the ether, as I like to call it,of our community.
So kind of help me dissertation.
For what are you, what's yourprofession?
Is there a connection to thatas well?
that would be of interest forour listeners today.
Speaker 2 (04:32):
Yeah.
So I got my PhD ininterdisciplinary studies,
humanities and culturespecifically, and my emphasis
was women's and gender studies,and I got a certificate in
creative writing And my PhDprogram was really focused on
social justice.
And so I had the uniqueopportunity to take my
(04:55):
background as a performer and awriter and kind of smash it
together in this creative,theoretical project, which
originally was going to be amemoir.
And then, as I started doing myresearch and reading more and
understanding more about myselfand taking more classes, i
realized that I had been writingpoetry my whole life, since i
(05:19):
was about 14 years old and i was, and that was a way of helping
me manage really intense anddifficult emotions, and so we
came pretty clear to me that Ineeded to do something along
that line.
And then the idea morphed intowriting and performing a one
woman show and actually embodiedperformance is a research
(05:40):
method.
You can use performance tocreate empathy And engage in
discussion around difficultissues, and at the time i was
teaching.
I was teaching writing at auniversity and not teaching at
the moment i, but i work As anadvocacy program manager at the
university of michigan.
So just a little bit about myprofessional background at the
(06:01):
moment, and because of myAdvocacy and activism work, i
joined the center for theeducation of women plus at u of
m and i take leadership overtheir advocacy initiatives.
Speaker 1 (06:15):
Sounds great, what i'm also picking up here and
some of the kind of transition alittle bit to rebecca, because
i've been a while since you'vebeen on the show.
Season two, episode eight.
Go listen to that, if youhaven't already.
What?
what's been going on in yourworld?
i mean, we, we've had somereally cool stuff going on.
I think you've had a showyou've.
You launched kind of an awardstype thing, if i remember
(06:37):
correctly, or do i have thatright kind of fill us in what's
been going, what's new.
Speaker 3 (06:41):
Yes, i've been working tirelessly on the wavy
awards for the.
This will be the third year andyou know how things just get
Bigger and more overwhelming.
But thanks for remembering thatthat'll be in november this
year in new york city.
If there any music lovers, i'mgoing to try to incorporate as
many adoptees into the show thisyear that I can, which is kind
(07:03):
of a neat segue into like whatLiz was saying.
And why we bonded is because,like this artistry and like
tying in academic Researchmethodologies into something
like a play or my passion,documentary filmmaking, is kind
of the same mode that we are into create these conversations.
(07:25):
So that's why we developed whatwe're going to talk about soon
And I have been trying toimplement more in person
screenings.
So Lisa and we just saw eachother at the untangling
conference, right, and that waskind of the first Streaming of
the documentary.
And of course, for those of youwho are new or don't know, i'm
the filmmaker behind reckoningwith the primal wound Which was
(07:49):
me trying to put this moreacademic work into movie format,
because that's my medium and itwas so nice to see people in
person to talk afterwards.
It's a different vibe and I loveit.
So now i'm I really think thatthrough music there's so many
adoptees who use songwriting andproduce whole albums about
(08:12):
their experience and I wouldlove to like think about that
going forward and I sort of havelike that's a new project with
an adoptee that I just met,we've known each other and then
it's one of those things whereyou realize they're also adopted
like years into yourrelationship and so thinking
about like Mary Goshay and thefoundling and her whole album
(08:35):
about that and Your adoption to,and then like I even have right
here David, right except me,his CD called my adopted curse.
So there's so many musiciansand it's like should we have a
concert series?
like we could I don't know, butI do want to have do a tour of
(08:56):
the film for sure struggle bustour and then operation fog lift
, which is what Liz and I arepartnering, is happening the
summer, so that's what's beengoing on.
Speaker 1 (09:07):
It's awesome and what I want I want to, before we go
too far there into theannouncement, i do want to get a
little since.
How did you two meet?
I mean, the creative connectionis clear.
How did you guys truly justconnect up?
I think that that, because thatis so important in our
community, as you guys know, wehave a co friend, jennifer Diane
ghost, and she is the podcasterfor Once upon a time in
(09:31):
adopting land, her and I do alot of what I'd say co, lifting
each other up.
I'm all about that lift eachother up, don't tear each other
down.
But it's just nice to makeconnection and being community.
So how did you two connect sothat you could start
collaborating and we can talkabout the upcoming announcement?
Speaker 2 (09:49):
Yeah.
So I actually reached out toRebecca I don't remember it was
a Facebook message or a messageon Instagram, because I had been
posting a bunch of stuff aboutunmothered after I won the award
And obviously had been seeingthe film everywhere and had seen
(10:09):
clips of it and I was likeRebecca, we need to talk,
because I think we need tocombine forces and, like, do
something together.
I just had this like deep,intuitive feeling that we needed
to connect and we needed to dosomething.
So she was like, yeah, let'sconnect absolutely.
(10:31):
And so we started talking and Isaid I think I think your film
in my play Are like perfectcompanions and I would love to
think about doing some kind ofan event where we could do a
screening of your film, do aperformance of my play and and
then have a talk back and reallyget you know, get people in
(10:54):
community together, witnessingboth of these really powerful
art forms.
And then, in the course of theconversations we started having,
we figured out that we aregetting similar reactions to our
work, that people are like whoa, i never thought of it this way
.
I I didn't know.
That's a piece of informationabout adoptees or adoption that
(11:16):
I had never considered right Andthere's also like a really deep
emotional reaction to.
Speaker 3 (11:26):
Yeah, like what I get is raw and poetic And that is
unmothered.
Like after I watched the play Iwas like oh, somehow Liz
portrays the same.
Like you get those sameadjectives when you see
unmothered and it's reallypowerful.
It's an hour long, So I feellike they're bite-sized enough
that it's going to be a nicecollaboration of your two?
Speaker 1 (11:49):
Yeah, exactly, yeah.
Well, let's go ahead, then, andwhy don't we talk about an
upcoming event that you guyswant to kind of get out there?
We're, you know, we're workingthrough a lot of different
activities, your promoactivities.
That's why you're here today aswell, and let's go ahead.
Let's who wants to just drop itout there and say this is what
(12:09):
we're doing, this is what it'scalled And this is when it is.
Speaker 3 (12:13):
We can both go, but for some background I'm from
Nashville and a lot of the castis in Nashville or can get to
Nashville.
I've edited most of the film atthis place called the filming
station, which DemetriaCaledimus owns.
She's my Emmy award winningjournalist, mentor, friend and
(12:37):
is letting us use the venue tohost both of these things,
because it has a little theaterand it also has a black box
studio where we can do a play.
They've done a play in thereand it also has this beautiful
backyard so we can have areception.
Speaker 2 (12:56):
It's in the middle of downtown Nashville, yeah, So so
I don't have any ties toNashville, but I will now
through Rebecca.
But, yeah, so we are planningto head to Nashville on August
5th and 6th of 2023, coming upin the next couple months, to do
the first, we hope, of manyoperation fog lift events, the
(13:21):
sort of concepts behindoperation fog lift to many
brainstorming conversations, andthis is like how our creative
brains work and another reasonwhy we are so sympathetic always
, my mother would say is we cameup with operation fog with
because we were trying to thinkabout, like what is it that?
(13:42):
what is it that we're doingwith our art?
Like what is it that our art isasking people to do?
right?
So We really we figured out like, oh, what are what we're doing
with this work, with these, withthese pieces of Creative
offerings, is we're helpingpeople to come out of the fog?
(14:02):
We're helping people tounderstand the ways that
Adoption has impacted us andmany other people, the way that
trauma has Interrupted anddisrupted us, and we're trying
to put the pieces back together.
And and so We came up withoperation fog lift because we
were like this is a really greatway to to get people to come
(14:24):
together In community to view,i'm gonna say the same story.
It's not the same story, butthe foundational Elements of the
story are there.
Right to the explore thisconcept of the primal wound
wound in two different ways andto have a really like Visceral
experience around, like what itmeans to Gravel with coming out
(14:49):
of the fog for us as adopteesbut then helping other people
along the way and not evenAdoptes or people in the
constellation.
Speaker 3 (14:57):
But I was thinking the audience would be hey, bring
You know your friends andfamily to this.
This is more a societal foglift, yes, primal wound theory,
and that's what I hope we can dowith it, because neither of our
projects are too Heavy-handed,they're very personal stories
that you can't really argue with, and not super academic, you
(15:20):
know.
So it's what do you think wesaying?
excited?
Speaker 1 (15:24):
one to be helping move this forward and to be even
slightly connected.
So thank you for thatopportunity.
I love it.
A couple of different thingsjust to kind of think about.
I actually went to one of yourscreening events.
Rebecca was in Tulsa with ourfriends, the adopted chameleon
(15:44):
and Emma Stevens, and I took afriend, so I'm just gonna share
this a little bit out into the.
I don't know if I've evertalked about it in Previous
episodes.
If I have, i apologize.
I'm just gonna restate it.
I took one of my friends and itwas a very emotional experience
for me as an adoptee Watching.
(16:05):
You know, you, rebecca, gothrough all of that journey that
you captured in that way and tobe able to Not only empathize
but have lived portions of thoseexperiences myself, and I know
others in the room felt that waytoo, and so you know, there
were times when I was cryingalmost uncontrollably and but
not like, like, not in the sensethat I couldn't be comforted,
(16:28):
it was just tears just rollingdown my face.
Right, we, we drove, my friendand I, we drove from the Dallas
Fort Worth area up to the Tulsaarea and, and so then, where we
went after that did a little bitof sightseeing, blah, blah blah
.
But what's really interestingis we drove, we had to drive
back, and on the way back, myfriend, who is one of my dearest
(16:51):
, closest friends and has liveda lot of my 20 past 25 years of
life, said to me Why were you soemotional?
and that it just took me back.
I wasn't expecting her to askthat question and I said because
I felt her pain.
Number one, i felt all of thethings that she was going
(17:12):
through.
I've been in some of thosesituations not all of them and
It is hard, i believe, fornon-adopties, and it doesn't
mean that they don't try, butthey don't always have the
capacity to really sit in ourexperience and To understand it.
They can be empathetic andsympathetic, but they still.
(17:35):
There's just still somethingmissing in the connection of the
synapses of the brain wherethey can say, yeah, i get it
right, because it's just, it'sjust that weird little nuance.
So anyway, wow, i'm excitedabout this event And that I'm
excited about this event forthat reason, mm-hmm.
Speaker 3 (17:54):
It could Do you think that she got it more.
Speaker 1 (17:59):
Yeah, she has a story .
She doesn't talk about it.
It's really interesting and ifshe listens to this episode
girlfriend, you know who you areand I apologize.
So her first husband was anadoptee and so she has her own,
like little Connection to thatas well, and we've talked
through kind of like what he hasdone in his life And you know
some of the things that maybedrove them apart and maybe why.
(18:20):
So she definitely gets it in inthe context of that.
Now let's fast forward.
I have one of my really goodfriends here the mon.
She's been on the show before,so the mon's here for this
weekend and we were talkingabout untangling the roots very
similar Rebecca, like reallylike, what was the download?
and then we were talking aboutAugust and so I've invited her
to come in August And she hasaccepted that invitation and
(18:44):
she's she's in it, she's equallyin it with me, and and so she's
now excited to come as well.
Speaker 3 (18:50):
Oh my gosh, you know what?
and with this is Y'all saw thatI kind of put it on Instagram
what two days ago.
People are really excited aboutthis.
People are excited about inperson In general, but the
reaction is really positive andI'm excited and thank you for
bringing your friend.
Speaker 1 (19:10):
I'm so excited to meet well so you've mentioned a
little bit of the logistics.
Do you guys mind going into alittle bit more around the
details of the event for ouraudience So that we can start,
you know, grabbing on to themand bringing them into the fold
with us?
Speaker 2 (19:25):
Yeah, so, like I said that the dates are August 5th
and 6th, we'll be starting at 3o'clock in the afternoon and we
will do a screening of the film,then there'll be a short
intermission, probably about ahalf an hour, and then with time
for some mingling and a littlereception in the backyard and
(19:46):
and then followed by performanceof my show, and then the final
Activity of the day, so to speak, will be a talk back with
Rebecca and I and the audience,so that folks have some time to
ask us questions, to processwhat they've just been part of,
(20:07):
and for us to sort of engage inthe really important piece of
this, which is to educate peopleand to empower adoptive voices
and to start to shift thenarrative Right.
And I'm going to let Rebeccajump in with other details too,
because I know there's more.
Speaker 3 (20:25):
Yeah, thanks Liz.
No, that was the run of show.
I'm very excited because somany cast members are in
Nashville so I'm not going toannounce who all's definitely
coming, but it's the most as faras cast members go Probably
Jill, definitely me And thenI'll announce those as it gets
(20:49):
closer.
It's an intentionally intimatevenue in space.
It's very dear to my heart,this place, and I just announced
that I'm taking waitlist orwe're taking waitlist emails.
Now we haven't fully announcedtickets but they will be on
(21:11):
event right shortly within themonth.
So if you want to be the firstto know, you can email me at
info at reckoning with theprimal woundcom and just tell me
that you are interested ingetting there.
And then, of course, i want todo a struggle bus situation
where I get a party bus and indowntown Nashville if anybody's
(21:32):
been there recently, it'sbananas, so you can rent a
tractor with a hot tub on theback.
I would like to do that Andthat might be an add on.
So if anybody wants to thinkabout that and get in that mood
And the whole thing is like, andI think my role that I play in
this space is healing kind ofthrough connection and fun.
(21:58):
So, like I say, the opposite offeeling isolated and like you
don't belong is feeling like youdo belong.
And so community building andlistening to pop music or riding
around on a tractor and alittle pool or hot tub is my
idea of that memory that I wantto build with people.
(22:18):
I want to do that too.
Speaker 1 (22:21):
Yeah, and I like where you guys are going with
the event, just knowing how theyhave started.
Rebecca from the, you know youronline presence and you're
showing of your movie through.
You know the pandemic and howthat was getting out there,
transitioning into live eventsWe just spoke of.
You know my experience at one.
I know you had one in the LAfootprint, so I am so excited to
(22:44):
have one in Tennessee.
I live in Tennessee And I'mclose with Jennifer Diane ghost
and we mentioned her justpreviously as well.
She and I are working also on,you know, all kinds of things
that we can do to bolster thecommunity here in Tennessee.
It is so good to have a memberof the community that you can
connect with that you.
(23:05):
You are able to do these typeof things.
So, yeah, i'm excited It'sgoing to be a Nashville.
It makes it easier for me toparticipate and attend I and I'm
excited to see how it's growingand and the community is
building around these types ofevents and doing things not only
just associated with the eventbut your struggle bus idea,
(23:27):
which then creates moreconnection with one another.
And you know we then lean oneach other for all of the
various stages of our journey.
Some days we're having a greatday, that's just humanity, and
some days we're having, you know, quite honestly, a crap day And
we're just like I am reallystruggling per year struggle bus
with this anxiety that I carry.
(23:47):
That I now know through all ofmy other journey that is part of
my trauma response And no one,no one, really understands that
in the context of the why I gotthere.
They do understand anxiety andPTSD and trauma response.
There are a lot of people thatdo right, they have nothing to
do with adoption.
So I want to be clear It's notus, it's not segmented only to
(24:11):
adoptees or for sure.
The reality is how did you gethere and understanding that and
being that, you know, living inthat shared life journey
experience So cool.
Speaker 3 (24:19):
Which is totally yeah .
Why I did that?
just for anybody who doesn'tknow why I did the struggle
buses?
because I got a party bus forall the influencers to go to LA
and then we all started talkingabout our problems.
So it turned into the strugglebus, like I had the who was on
the bus Garrett Maroschi, DariaRottenberg, Sierra Watts, Raya
Snow and so more like adoptees,but gravitated towards talking
(24:42):
about these issues and we wereall going through something.
But being on there and then wejust crank.
The pop music was cathartic andlike kept us in a positive space
And I feel like that's my roleand I wanna do that more.
And then, talking aboutJennifer Diane Ghoston and you,
(25:02):
Lisa Ann, I tell everyone whenthey ask me what they can do,
you know, to heal their primalwounds.
After I tell them that if theysee the film 25 times they'll be
good that they should listen tothe podcast, because that's
where it keeps going And that iscontinual.
So it's like wandering tree andonce upon a time in Adopt D
(25:24):
land, Jennifer Diane Ghoston'spodcast are crucial and they are
the recommended resources onthe website what people can do
for post support and to continuebuilding the community.
So thank you so much foreverything you're doing And I'm
glad we're collaborating.
Speaker 1 (25:39):
Yeah, i am too.
I am too.
You know.
There's so many good resourcesout there.
You've hit on a couple of them.
I appreciate that.
Shout out I know Jennifer doesas well and books, man books are
becoming very powerful for ourcommunity as well.
I've done the love bomb ofbooks That's what I call it
where I sat in 20, latter 2020,2021 and I read nothing but
(26:02):
Adopt D memoirs, or to the pointof where I got in a state of
I'm exhausted, and so I love thediversity of ways to find
outlets.
That's where I'm going withthis The diversity of ways to be
in community, build communityand outlets.
So, yeah, podcast books thatare upcoming in Liz's many
(26:25):
others.
There is not enough.
That's my message.
When people ask, do you feellike you're competing And I'm
sure you guys get this too Doyou feel like you're competing
with one another?
Nope, i don't feel that at all.
In fact, i feel quite theopposite.
It's just all coming togetherand I see our community just
really rising to some reallygood, healthy places.
(26:46):
So August 5th and 6th inNashville, the event is called
Operation Foglift.
It will start around the threeo'clockish timeframe, is what I
heard.
It is a multi hour event.
So screening of Reckoning withthe Primal Wound, a mini
(27:07):
intermission reception.
The unmothered in person liveexcited.
I have not seen that.
I'm excited, liz.
And then a talk back event, acollaboration, a little bit of
how we're all talking to oneanother.
So a little more community Andthen, if it works out, maybe
some socializing.
Yep, that's it.
Speaker 3 (27:30):
I always want people to feel like they belong
somewhere, and so please come tothis or at least be in touch
for future things.
Operation Foglift is kind of aplay into the branding of Adopti
Army, so we have everybodybehind us and we do have like
supports in communities.
Speaker 2 (27:50):
Yeah, we're literally dropping ourselves into
communities to bring these twopieces of art to.
We're creating a movement right, and, just like you said, lisa,
a few minutes ago, all theAdoptis that are producing
podcasts, that are publishingmemoirs and writing and other
(28:14):
documentary films and otherartists in the Adoptis community
what's happening is there's amovement to, as I said before,
shift the narrative right Thatwe're all grown adults now and
saying wait a minute, i've beenquiet for too long And I do that
(28:35):
through my own work, Like if Ican get up on stage and show you
my story, then maybe somebodyelse leaves feeling empowered
too.
Speaker 1 (28:44):
Yeah, that's so powerful.
Well, ladies, I'm lookingforward to August.
Speaker 2 (28:49):
And I say one more thing, because the one thing
that we need to do this is help.
So if folks are listening andyou are local to the Nashville
area and maybe you have connectsbecause you're in the
restaurant industry and youmight wanna donate some food or
drinks, or if you want to make afinancial gift to us to get
(29:12):
this going, we would soappreciate that too, so you can
email us for those things.
but this is the beginning ofwhat we hope will be something
big, and so we're looking forsome event sponsors and we can
send you more information aboutthat.
But if you can help, let usknow.
Speaker 1 (29:28):
All right, ladies.
You guys have a great day andthank you again for your time.
Thank you for listening totoday's episode.
Make sure to rate, review andshare.
Want to join the conversation?
Contact us atwanderingtreeadoptdcom.
This has been KINE��超 וRecognize this job.
(29:55):
Wk Pontius sich k.
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