April 9, 2024 • 52 mins
John Ripley joins me to discuss his mission to help men of faith live up to their full potential. Our discussion focuses mostly on healthy masculinity, the obstacles men face in developing it, and how woman can help their husband's and son's embrace it.
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Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I'm jamielynn Stephan and thisis what to wanted.
(00:02):
Episode number 113 healthymasculinity with John Ripley.
Welcome to want to want it apodcast for women of the church
of Jesus Christ of latter daysaints who are ready to ignite
not only their sexual desire,but all of their desires to
create a more fulfilling lifeand marriage.
I'm jamielynn Stephan.
I'm a certified life coach, awife, and a mother of seven
(00:24):
children.
I'm excited to share my personaljourney to desire with you and
teach you how to desire more aswell hello everybody.
Welcome to the podcast today.
I am actually really excitedbecause Not very often do I have
a male guest on my show.
And so today I have John Ripleyjoining me to talk about men and
(00:47):
masculinity, healthymasculinity, and some things
that he feels really called todo in the world of men.
So John, can you just give uskind of an introduction about
yourself?
Tell us a little about you.
Sure.
I'm first of all, thank you somuch.
You know, I'm just gettingstarted in the podcast world and
this is a huge benefit to me andI really appreciate, you helping
(01:08):
me along here.
So the other thing I just kindof wanted to say before we
started is I'm a little worriedtoday we'll come off is that I
think that, You know, because ofthe nature of this interview
where you're the podcast hostand you're asking about what
women need to understand aboutmen, that this might come off as
me thinking that it's women'sresponsibility.
(01:28):
And that's the exact opposite ofmy message.
I think the, the real importantthing or what I'm really trying
to get out is for men to startto take more control of their
lives and their relationshipwith God and their relationship
with the world around them.
sO just about me, I, I'm I'mgetting older, I'm nearing 50
(01:49):
years old and I am no expert inthings by any means, but I've
made a lot of mistakes and Ikind of hope to help people
along to understand so, so I canhelp people avoid the mistakes
I've made.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
We talked a little bit beforewe, you know, last time about
when we thought we'd talk aboutdoing a podcast.
(02:12):
I really feel called to this.
I started, I, my daughter was ona mission.
She was struggling with youknow, just struggling with their
mission in general, likecommissions are right.
And so our mission presidentkept telling her You know, if
you keep working hard, yourfamily back home will be blessed
and, and, you know, the bestthing you can do for your family
is just do a good job of yourmission.
(02:33):
And, and so she kept writinghome and saying you know, can
you guys see the blessings inyour lives?
And, and we kind of ignored itfor the first few times or I
definitely ignored the first fewtimes because we were just
really struggling.
We were having some financialproblems.
You know, we're having, youknow, just just a lot of
different problems, right?
Not hard problems, but just,just life wasn't, definitely was
(02:57):
not running smooth.
And so finally I, you know, shekept asking, I thought, well,
okay, I can't ignore it anymore.
And so I wrote a letter or anemail saying how we don't get
blessed necessarily the way theLord or the way we would like to
get blessed.
We get blessed in the way thatthe Lord wants us to progress,
(03:18):
right?
Sometimes our trials are, youknow, our biggest trials turn
out to be our best, our biggestblessings because that's what
the Lord wants us to do.
So I wrote that and it helped mydaughter.
It was great, but then I justcouldn't leave it alone.
And I, I just kept fiddling withit.
And I, I kind of copied andpasted what I.
I sent my daughter into a worddocument and I just expanded on
(03:39):
it pretty soon.
I had 000 words.
And so at that time I thought,well, let's kind of round this
out.
And I got an editor and we kindof rounded it out into a little
bit of a book.
And that's, that's the first fewepisodes of my podcast.
It's called grace to grace.
It's, um, kind of talking abouthow we progress line upon line
(04:01):
and our trials kind of help us.
Become who, who the Lord wantsus to become, not necessarily
who we think we should become,but who the Lord wants us to
become.
And that's kind of been myjourney.
And I, I, I've struggled withtrying to figure out how to get
the message out.
I still don't know where this isall going to go.
I, I just feel like it'ssomething that the Lord has
(04:21):
asked me to do.
And, and I'm just kind of,Feeling it out as I go, I guess.
Right, right.
So what's the name of yourpodcast then?
So my, my podcast is actuallycalled Abraham Sons 52.
So the Abraham Sons is areference to our covenants.
anD it, it, it's not geared justtowards people who are of the
(04:44):
Church of Jesus Christ ability.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
It's geared towards men of allfaiths.
And it's basically a referenceto, you know, figuring out how
to keep our covenants within theworld, the modern world we live
in.
And then the 52 is a reference.
That's the year my father wasborn.
And so that's in my life, I feellike he, my dad's a convert.
(05:08):
And so I feel like he is thegenerational link.
Between, um, the, the priesthoodlink, right?
So before him had the priesthoodbut those of us after do, and he
is now on the other side workingwith those who were previously,
you know we're unable to, togain some of those blessings
(05:29):
here on earth.
Yeah.
So when we first talked, youkind of said to me, I feel
called, I feel like I have thismission to help men of faith.
Live up to their full potential.
Is that right?
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so for you, what does thatmean?
Like what, when you say that,what, what does that mean for
(05:50):
you that they're living up totheir full potential?
So, you know, and it's a toughquestion, right?
Because it's a little differentfor everybody.
Right.
But in a broader sense, it's We,first of all, one of the biggest
problem, we talked a little bitabout this when we talked about
the podcast idea is that, youknow, our world is really
(06:11):
emasculating men.
You know, and we've, we've lostthe touch between healthy
masculinity, right?
So we, you know, everybodyunderstands toxic masculinity
and we, we talk about that alot, but we don't talk about
healthy masculinity and whatthat means.
And there's been some onlinestuff, some online discussion,
(06:31):
but a lot of that is missing thecovenants with our, with God
part.
I think that's really where, youknow, I fit in, right?
Okay.
Is that, you know, figuring out,you know, first of all, the
healthy masculinity part, butalso adding in part of that is
our relationship with God andkeeping those covenants.
That we all make, regardless ofwhat religion we we adhere to,
(06:57):
we all have you know, covenantsor a relationship with, with our
father in heaven, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So just for my listeners, what,what do you define as toxic
masculinity?
Like, what do you feel like thatmeans?
So, you know, and a lot ofpeople say there's no such thing
as toxic masculinity, and Idon't subscribe to that, because
(07:17):
you see it play out a lot youknow, and, and a lot of times it
comes through in, well, so, sothe biggest issue, like you're
seeing all the school shootings.
Right?
So that's men they're young mennot understanding how to express
themselves, right?
They're getting frustrated inlife and they come out and, you
(07:38):
know, at some point this becomesa realistic manifestation of
their masculinity, right?
So one of the interesting thingsis the vast majority of school
shooters, Grow up in fatherlesshomes, you know, they have a
lack of example of healthymasculinity, right?
(08:02):
And so the, so we talked alittle bit about fight club, the
movie fight club, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
So I actually sat down and like,when I was driving.
And I spent a lot of timethinking about that movie, and
the more I thought about it, themore I thought that should be
required viewing for everyparent, like when you have a son
(08:22):
in the hospital, they shouldjust put it on the screen and
force you to watch it beforethey allow you to take your
child home, right?
And, and so what that movie isall about, and I'm going to ruin
the movie, so if you haven'tseen it, maybe you want to shut
this part off, but it's a 20year old movie, so I don't.
I feel like I'm, I'm wrecking itfor anybody.
(08:42):
That's okay.
I've never seen it and go ahead,wreck it for me.
Yeah, wreck it for you.
So the, the whole movie is abouta man who is trapped.
So he works in a cubicle and thecubicle represents the box that
the world has put him in andMore specifically, the women in
(09:02):
his life has put him in one ofthe best lines in the movie is
about like we're a generation ofmen raised by women.
So the rest of the movie or theentirety of the movie is the
unhealthy manifestation of hisrepressed masculinity.
Right.
And so, so I think that's whatwe're seeing so much in the
world is because men havemasculinity has been so
(09:25):
repressed that it's coming outin very unhealthy ways.
And that's the whole fight club.
These, this guy basicallycompletely destroys his entire
life because he's trying to findways to express his masculinity.
He starts a fight club.
He travels.
He gets.
In all kinds of trouble, loseshis house.
He moves into this house with abunch of, you know, alcoholics
(09:49):
and drug addicts and whatever.
And and so that's the, that'sthe unhealthy masculinity.
And we're seeing that even inthe online world a little bit,
right?
Where some of these guys, someof them have, you know, Like
even, even the guys who are verymasculine and have some
unhealthy views, you know,there, there's a big draw to
(10:12):
them because there is such alack of, you know, healthy
masculinity stereotypes orhealthy masculinity examples.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're just saying like toxicmasculinity is kind of like this
losing of your temper.
Like out of control, anger,maybe the, what people would say
(10:32):
was this, you know, dominatingof women kind of idea.
That's the toxic side.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But then, so you have this kindof idea of like, there is
healthy masculinity and itdoesn't have to be like, you
need to feel shame about being aman now.
(10:54):
It can actually be embracingbeing a man.
So when you, when you thinkabout what that would actually
mean.
And again, of course, everyoneis different, but in general,
what would kind of be yourdefinition or idea of like, this
would be a healthy.
A man who had healthymasculinity, he would be like
this or have these kind ofcharacteristics.
What would that be?
(11:15):
I actually this morning had agreat thought and I wrote it
down a little bit.
So if you read in Matthew 5,Matthew chapter 5 verse 5,
that's the Beatitudes and ittalks about how the meat shall
inherit the earth.
If you actually do a study ofthe word meek, it comes from the
(11:37):
Greek word and I'm going tobutcher the pronunciation here,
but it's perus, and, and it'snot an incorrect interpretation
when we say meek or mild or, butthe, just like we use the word
cool in different contexts.
The word perus was actuallymostly used in connection with
(12:01):
Greek warhorses.
Okay.
And so the, the idea being thatthese, they had these great,
magnificent, strong, capablehorses, but they were under
control.
Okay.
And so when, when Christ saysthe meek shall inherit the
earth, we're not, what he'sbasically saying is the
(12:23):
powerful, the dangerous, Thatare able to keep that under
control will inherit the earth.
I do remember hearing a talk onmeekness from Elder Bednar and
he talked about how he's likemeekness is not weakness like
there is a strength, like themeek have strength and so okay
(12:44):
so that's part of it you'resaying it's You have power, but
you're in control.
Yes.
Okay.
And I think that's the, probablythe, the you know, if you wanted
to take it and kind of coin thehealthy masculinity, that would
be the definition, right?
It's dangerous, but undercontrol.
Dangerous, but under control.
(13:05):
When violence is the answer,they'll use violence, but until
then, no.
Yeah.
And, and danger doesn'tnecessarily mean violent danger.
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, there's definitelydifferent ways.
So in my world, I'm in theconstruction world, right?
And you see all kinds ofunhealthy situations.
Like, I'm currently in asituation where a guy's trying
(13:27):
to, like, I've got a contractfor a job.
A guy, the general contractorand I have had a falling out and
he's trying to take advantage ofme and trying to do different
things.
And so, you know, dangerous inthat sense is that I know the
laws, I know my rights, I knowthe, also the, the great areas
(13:48):
of the world where I can defendmy position.
In order to provide for me andmy family in order to control
the situation.
So I could also use those thatknowledge.
Like, I've been in theconstruction industry for a long
time.
I could also use that knowledgefor evil.
(14:10):
Where I want to take advantageof people on construction in the
construction world as well,right?
So it's so that Capability thatwe learn in life can be used for
good or it can be used for forevil, right?
and so the the idea of beingmasculine or Meek is the idea
(14:32):
that we we develop thosecapabilities, but we they're
under control We're not justRunning around as a loose can
and trying to, you know, disruptthe whole world, right?
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
A bridled, a bridled horse.
Yeah.
Okay.
So show up a lot in thescriptures, don't we?
Oh yeah.
So much.
(14:52):
So much.
Right.
It's like, yeah.
When, when we are meant to be incontrol all right.
Yeah.
For sure.
So what do you feel like aresome of the obstacles?
In the way of men really kind ofdeveloping healthy masculinity,
like what, what things are theydoing to themselves?
(15:13):
And what do you see outside inthe outside world that impacts
this?
So, I mean, let's, first of all,I, one of the things that I'm
passionate about, one of theconversations I want to have as
many times to as many people asI can is, is this idea of what
we're doing to young men.
This is where, where I think theproblems in our, our, I mean,
(15:36):
we've got a lot of problems onour side, but this particular
problem starts at a very youngage.
anD it's, so.
Young men are raised mostly bymom.
So, after World War II, right,most, we kind of got away from
the agricultural society, right,men go off to work during the
day, boys are raised by theirmothers up through till they're
(15:57):
five or six, they go off toschool, they're raised by you
know, they, they spend a largeportion of their time with
female teachers at school.
And then they, that kind offollows them through.
And so, one of the biggestproblems with our school system
for young men is.
When you're in grade 1, 2, and3, young boys have a lot tougher
(16:19):
time sitting still than younggirls.
So what happens is, teachersays, you know, Tommy, why can't
you sit nice like Sally?
And pretty soon, boys learn thatit's not cool to do well in
school.
It's not, right?
None of the boys are doing wellin school.
It's the boys who are alwaysgetting in trouble, and it's the
girls.
(16:39):
We're sitting over here that theteacher those are the, I
wouldn't even say they're easierstudents to teach.
They're more what the femaleteacher understands, right?
She relates more to, you know,the girls than she does boys,
which is just natural, right?
And so pretty soon the boysjust, just start running out of
(17:02):
outlets.
More there for their masculineenergy.
So they start to act out, right.
They act out in school, they actout at home, they act out
wherever.
So I think that's a real problemin society and you're seeing
more and more of it, the wholeidea of, you know, no awards,
right?
Everybody gets an award.
There's no, no reward forwinning, no reward for doing
(17:25):
well.
You know, we don't score.
We don't.
Right.
And those, those aren'tmasculine.
Ideals, right?
Like no dad is taking their kidto soccer and being like, yeah,
we're not going to keep score.
Right.
Like dads are all about, Hey,like we're keeping score and my
kid's gonna, gonna whoop yourkid.
Right.
(17:45):
Like, and there's a lot of goodlife lessons in those, you know,
whether you win or lose, there'sgood life lessons.
Right.
I think that's one of theobstacles and or probably one of
the biggest things that we'reseeing the results of now.
Right.
Right.
It's just kind of, there's nospace for this building up and
(18:05):
encouraging some good positivemasculine behavior or energy or
right.
It's like, just fall in linehere.
Keep this easy.
Like sports are a great way for,for boys to learn.
Like when we talk about thatdefinition of masculinity,
powerful, but under control ordangerous, but under control.
Right.
I guess.
As a athlete, you compete forall your worth, and then the
(18:30):
whistle blows, and you stop.
Right?
Like, that's control.
Like, you, you're developing askill to be dangerous.
Like, or powerful.
But then when the whistle blows,you stop, you're friends again,
you, you move on, right?
And so if we take away thecompetitiveness of that, then
all of a sudden we're startingto to remove a lot of those
(18:53):
healthy masculine outlets.
Right.
Yeah.
So I guess there's this kind ofquestion in my mind a little bit
about, you know, This is what Isee and this could totally be
wrong.
This is just something that I'veseen when I look around the
world and maybe part of it hasbeen as more women have gone
into the workforce.
It's almost like there, theredoes seem to be, even though I
(19:14):
think on the one hand, men arelike, I feel kind of
emasculated.
On the other hand, there's likethis relief.
Because no, no longer are theykind of like, Oh, I meant to
provide for my family by myself.
That's like, I expect my wife tocontribute to that.
And, and again, not because Ithink it's bad if a man and a
woman are sharing thatresponsibility, but in some
(19:37):
ways, I almost feel like menhave, have been almost like, I
kind of love that there's a lotless pressure on me than there
was generations before to kindof step into these roles of
providing, leading reallytaking, like, like you talked
about, right.
It used to be boys were going tothe farm with their dad or onto
the ranch or whatever, right.
(19:58):
Learning the trade and havingthat.
And now it's almost like,there's a lot of men who are
just like, great.
Take care of the kids.
I I'm happy.
I'm going to work my long hoursand I'm going to come home and
sit here and, you know, and, andalmost like they kind of love it
now, maybe I'm wrong about that,but there, I think it would take
a lot of courage to maybe stepinto that.
(20:19):
Into more of the responsibilityaround, I agree.
And that, so, I mean, I alsolove to sit at home, eat cake
and watch movies all day.
But that's not good for me.
It doesn't make me happy and itdoesn't help me progress.
Right.
And so that's a lot of mymessage too.
(20:39):
Right.
Is that.
You know, if men want to behappier, they do have to start
to take control, right?
Like you can, like we can talkabout all they want, the
problems with the school systemor the problems, you know, way
young men are being raised.
If you're all of a sudden, nowyou're 30, you can look back and
say, yeah, this was a problem,but you can't go back and change
(21:00):
it, right?
The reality, this is where weare now.
If I want to have a better life,And I want to be happy, then I
need to start to take control ofthat.
And so if I don't, then, youknow, the, I'm not, first of
all, I'm not living up to mypotential, but I'm not living up
to the covenants and myrelationship with God, right?
(21:21):
Then we're supposed to be thespiritual leaders of our
household.
We're supposed to take controlof our life.
We're supposed to provide forour families.
We're supposed to, you know,raise our Children, right?
And be a part of their lives,right?
So is that easy?
And if somebody else will do it,then great.
Like that's one of my biggestfrustrations in Like I, my wife
and I have owned a constructioncompany for a long time, right?
(21:43):
And my biggest frustration whenwe hire, whether it's foreman or
superintendents or whatever,superintendents, because they're
good at what they do, will oftenstep in and take over for
whoever's underneath them.
Well, as soon as they do that acouple times, that person just
quits doing it.
Right.
Like, so you go and you'll setup, well, this is your
responsibility.
This is your responsibility.
(22:04):
This is your responsibility.
And you'll come back a monthlater and now this person isn't,
isn't doing it anymore.
And they're like, well, yeah,but you know, the boss always
does it for me.
So I just stopped doing it.
Right.
And you're like, but still yourresponsibility, like it's easier
for him to not do it.
Cause somebody to take over forthem, but still.
It needs to, he needs to learnthat that's his responsibility.
(22:26):
Yeah, and do it.
Yeah, I recently heard someonejust talking about, you know,
it's so important to makechoices that accrue to your self
respect.
It's like, so when, what you'redoing, even if it's feels kind
of the easy thing to do, do yourespect yourself at the end of
it?
And, and so I think I thinkthere is kind of this disrespect
(22:51):
for men.
I really do genuinely feel likethere's a lot of disrespect
towards men in the world and alot of diminishing of them and
putting them down.
And I, again, not because therehasn't been things that have
happened in the past that.
And, men aren't awesome, butit's like, these are, these are
human beings.
These are people and the waythat they're treated can be so
(23:11):
disrespectful.
And that at the same time we seeso many young men and men also
acting in ways that do not showthat they have self respect.
And again, that's something youhave to build and work on, but
may be very hard to develop in aworld that is so disrespectful
of you.
It is and if one of the problemslike if you look at popular
(23:34):
culture You know, how manysitcoms or movies portray men as
So you either get two extremes,right?
So you either get theincompetent man that the wife,
you know, taking, you know, justraising as another child in the
family, more or less, or you getthe ultra masculine man, who's
saving the world, right?
(23:55):
I think there's very little inbetween portrayed in our.
popular culture.
Like, you know, there's no, hey,this guy's just a good man, a
good dad, and good provider.
And right, like you don't seethat portrayed anymore, right?
Yes.
And I think a lot of peopledon't even understand that
that's the goal anymore, right?
That's right.
And so you're right.
It is.
(24:16):
It is.
Difficult for, you know, men,young men to, to even figure out
what they should be doing, what,what the role model is, what the
goal is.
And, and that's a lot of theproblems and that's a lot of my
message.
That's really what I want to betrying to do is explain to men
that, Hey, this, this is me.
(24:36):
This is bad for society, butit's bad for you too.
Right.
Thank you for listening.
Totally, totally.
Okay.
So we're, we're trying to bemore of this healthy, masculine
person.
Where does vulnerability fitinto this?
Because on the one hand, right,I think kind of that toxic
masculinity, that, that shorttemper is a lot of trying to
protect vulnerabilities.
(24:58):
There's there, even though Ithink we're in a world that is
trying to be better, there isstill kind of messaging, like
don't cry.
Do you don't have a hard day,right?
And so like, what, what is,what's your opinion on men and
just being vulnerable, beingshowing weakness is, do you feel
like that is important?
(25:18):
What's your, what's your thoughton that?
Yeah.
And I think in short, it kind ofgoes back to the same message we
had before is that yes, butunder control, right?
Like you, as, as a leader, Youcan't, there's times you just
can't be vulnerable, right?
Whether you're the leader ofyour family or the leader of a
company or the leader of anyorganization, there's times when
(25:42):
the people that you're in chargeof need to see you as the, you
know, the strong, competentleader.
That doesn't mean that there isalso times that they don't need
to see that, Hey, you're, you'revulnerable, that you have
struggles just like the rest ofus.
And Hey, you know what?
I'm struggling today.
(26:02):
Can you help me?
Right?
Or, um, you know, and I thinkthere's a lot more room for
vulnerability within a healthyrelationship, right?
So whether that's with yourspouse, with your kids, with,
you know.
With your friends, whatever,right?
I, I do think one of the bigproblems we have in culture now
(26:26):
is we expect our spouses to beeverything for us, right?
We, right?
Because our world's got busy andwe don't have as many outlets,
we expect our spouse you know,to be our best friend, to be our
outlet for everything that wehave, to be our sexual partner,
to be whatever.
And sometimes your spouse justisn't capable of some of those
(26:49):
roles, right?
Like they, they're just peopletoo.
Just, and you're not thatperson.
That your spouse needs in everysituation either, right?
It kind of goes both ways.
So, trying to find other healthyoutlets for some of these
issues.
Because sometimes, you know, Ithink, I think it was you that
talked about it last time, thatthere's situations where you,
(27:11):
you know, you say, said to yourhusband, well, hey, I'd like to
talk about this.
And he's like, not now.
Right.
And he just couldn't deal withit.
And, and I think, you know, thathappens in our relationship too,
but you still have to havesomewhere to go.
Right.
You still have to have somewhereto have an outlet.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that is true.
I think there is a lot ofpressure sometimes to, to be, to
(27:32):
feel like, no, but you have tobe everything for me.
And that is, that is a lot.
It is a lot, but on the otherhand, I also see the value in
stepping into the discomfort.
Of the things that areuncomfortable to do in your
marriage.
Right.
Like when it is, I mean, you andI discussed this before of this
idea of like feeling like, youknow, men are on this white
(27:54):
horse and they can't fall offthe horse, right?
Yeah.
It's like, actually it would bereally good for more women to
get more comfortable with theirhusband falling off the horse.
Right?
And yeah, so I, I think the rethe way we got on that topic
last time was and I wish I, Icould find it, but there was,
just a tick tock or a reel of alady who wrote a book about this
(28:16):
you know, for women beingvulnerable and women kind of
accepting that.
And the guy kind of, he broughthis wife and daughter to the
book signing.
And he asked the lady, you know,do you ever interview men?
And she says, no, I don't, Idon't really work with men.
And he says, well, that'sconvenient.
And then he says, says the lady,you see my wife and daughter,
who you just signed a book for,they would rather see me die on
(28:40):
my white horse than ever falloff.
And I think we talked a littlebit about how You know, our
spouse or dad or whoeversometimes is that wall between
us and the scary chaos that isthe rest of the world.
And so, yeah, it's terrifying tosee that person fall off there
or get off voluntarily get offtheir white horse, right?
(29:01):
Like you, you expect them to bethere your knight in shining
armor and going.
And be that wall between you andthe rest of the world.
Right.
And so, um, you know, and that'skind of a little bit about this,
where's room for vulnerability.
Sometimes there, there isn't asmuch room as we would like as
men, because we, we do need tobe that wall between.
(29:23):
The chaos of the world and ourfamilies, right?
Yeah, but even sometimes maybe,and I don't know, but like, is
it possible that just morehonest conversation, like, I
don't know what the white horsenecessarily represents to
everybody, but even being ableto say, like, This is hard
today.
I'm gonna do it.
Like, I'm getting up.
I'm going to work.
I'm going out there.
(29:44):
I'm slaying the dragon.
But I like, I feel blue today.
I feel intimidated.
I, whatever, like being able to,even, even though it's not going
to change your action, it'slike, can I tell my wife what is
real for me?
And even if that shakes her alittle bit, that's okay, because
it helps her actually learn totake care of herself a little
(30:08):
more, maybe step up in adifferent way, and if nothing
else, creates a little moreintimacy in your marriage.
I agree with that.
I think that's a, a temptationwe all fall prey to at times
where we're like, you know what,like my wife's struggling or
she's having a bad day.
So I'm just gonna pretendeverything's great.
Right.
And then you kind of get stuckin that where you, you know,
(30:28):
you're not happy.
You're, you know, and this goesback to, well, like one of the,
one of the things I seehappening so much with, with
modern feminism is women arealways clamoring for it.
We want the right to work.
We want the right.
And men are sitting here on theother side.
This sucks.
That's why they gotta pay me togo to work.
(30:49):
'cause I hate it.
Right?
And so you're thinking that thisis some reward that I get, that
I'm excited to get out, roll outof bed at 6:00 AM and, and you
know, put on my work boots andgo to this miserable job that I
hate.
I, you know.
Mm-Hmm.
And so for Ben to say, I don'tlike this, right?
This isn't what I want to bedoing.
I'm doing this for you and thefamily, this is a sacrifice.
(31:11):
I'm making like you say, itwould bring the closer, the
wives would understand a lotmore.
You know why he comes home atthe end of the day and he
doesn't want to do X or Ybecause like he's, he just had a
long day doing stuff he doesn'twant to do because, and he does
(31:33):
it for you and the kids.
And so when, when the wife says,Hey, you know, I really want to
go on vacation.
And he's like, well, I can'tafford vacation.
He's not, you know, he might actout, but it's because he's
frustrated because of the factthat I'm doing the best I can.
I'm sorry, I can't Also do dothis, right?
Yeah.
(31:54):
So like you say expressing thata little bit Yeah, I'm gonna get
up and go to work today, eventhough I really don't want to
helps To help for the familiesto try and figure out and the
relationship what each other isgiving, right?
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just think maybe a little morehonesty is actually okay.
(32:15):
I, I think in our minds, we'relike, this is how I protect
people.
But I think we're actuallyreally good at, at seeing what's
happening for people.
And so I think sometimes for awife, you're watching and you
know, like something's like notright here, but you can't
pinpoint it because nothing'sbeing said.
And so I think sometimes justspeaking the words, even though
(32:36):
it does feel scary andvulnerable and maybe your wife
is going to have a little freakout, right?
And it's like, can I hold myselftogether while she kind of has a
little freak out here becausethis is good for us to actually
be in an honest relationshipwhere, you know, it's not about.
It's like me clinging to thiswhite horse, even though I'm
(32:57):
dying on top of it, right?
It's like, I do think, you know,and that's something, you know,
the, the white lies we tell allthe time are a lot more
detrimental than people realize.
Right.
And, and we tell white lies allthe time because we think we're
being kind, right?
Like if your wife comes to youand says, Hey, do I look fat in
(33:18):
this?
I mean, you know, Yeah, it's atrap run.
Right.
But, but when you tell her that,yes, you look great, that's,
that's to make your life easier.
Because if you tell her, yeah,that, that dress doesn't fit you
like it did last year, that'sgoing to be an uncomfortable
(33:41):
conversation.
But I, but they do a lot moredamage than we realize.
A hundred percent.
I agree.
And I, I think we need to be,you know, that would be one of
the things I would telleverybody.
Stop telling white lies, right?
Like I've seen, seen it go bothways, right?
Like you see a lot of women wholike, especially within our
(34:07):
culture in the church They thinkthat if they don't love raising
little kids, that they'reterrible people, right?
And a lot of women don't, youknow, it's not that they don't
love their kids, but they don'tparticularly like little kids.
And when they're stuck at homefor, you know, 60, 70 hours a
(34:27):
week with little kids, they're,they're miserable.
And, but they don't ever feellike.
They can say, Hey, this makes memiserable because that would say
like to them, that would belike, well, I'm not a good mom.
I'm not a good person.
I'm, I'm a terrible Latter daySaint.
If I don't love raising kids.
Right.
(34:48):
And on the flip side of that,like, this is the other thing is
that.
So for men, I remember this asa, when my kids were little I
would love.
Nice.
My wife is amazing with littlekids.
Like, she loves little kids.
She's the best mom ever.
And I'm not.
I'm not very patient.
Although I love kids, I'm notparticularly good with them.
(35:10):
Right?
So the, so the role of me goingto work and providing for the
family and her staying home withthe kids is definitely what's
best for the family.
But I hated it.
Right?
Right?
Like so, you know, when I wasoff working and I'm missing
first steps, or I'm missing, youknow, I remember missing
Halloweens, missing birthdays,missing whatever, because I'm
(35:32):
off trying to provide for myfamily.
Like that's brutal, right?
Like it kind of goes both ways.
And if you're not having honestconversations about both sides
of that, then no one, neitherside realizes what the other is
struggling with.
Yes.
A hundred percent.
And I think we get competitivealmost, right?
(35:53):
Like whose life is harder.
Right?
And I, I've been in my ownmarriage for sure.
And I see it in so manymarriages where, you know, they,
they are having theseconversations and it's just
this, like, who is sufferingmore right now?
Because whoever that is, is the,is the best.
They're the winner.
Instead of just being like, Hey,What both of us are doing here
(36:14):
is hard work and it's requiringa lot of us.
And, but as a team, look whatwe're creating because we're
both willing to sacrifice.
Just like you were saying,right?
Like we're creating somethingfantastic here.
And I miss birthdays and my wifenever gets a break from the
kids.
And These are, these are thesacrifices that we make to
create this family that we want.
And I just think if we couldeliminate some of the
(36:35):
competitiveness, but just likethe, this feminist movement that
I feel like has gone beyondfeminism, right.
It's created so much morecompetition.
Yeah, it's kind of trained us tocompete with men instead of
looking and saying, how do weactually work well together and
collaborate well by playing toour strengths to create
(36:56):
something really amazing here.
Well, the other big problem withthe feminist movement is the
lies it tells.
Well, both sides, right?
Women and men, right.
But it's telling women thatthey're, you know, that their
careers are going to bring themmore joy.
And it's, and it's also byenlarging men, that that's what
(37:17):
you should be focusing on isthat your careers are more
important here.
But, you know, we, We should beworking to live, not living to
work.
Right.
I mean, when you're 70 or 80,like my both my parents have
passed away in the last coupleof years.
Right.
And, you know, when we're and Iwas with both of my parents at
the time of their passing, andneither one of them cared about
(37:39):
work, right?
Or what they'd accomplish intheir career.
My dad was a farmer and I spentthe last, I don't know, probably
four or five nights of his life,I spent in the hotel my mom
would go, or in the hospital mymom would go go home and sleep
and I would stay, stay the nightwith my dad.
And I told him one morning, Isaid, Dad, like, I mean, you're
(37:59):
going to die anyways.
Like, if you want to go back tothe farm, I'll figure out how to
get you out of here, right?
Like, I'll, I'll break you out,we'll go back to the farm and
like you know, you can spendsome of your last minutes there.
And he said, you know, eventhough I love the farm, that's
where I spent my whole life.
He, he, he lived on the farm,the same farm as a kid that he
(38:20):
had as an adult.
Like he, you know, he loved it.
He said, that's not what'simportant.
Right.
Like what's important is thepeople that are around, you
know, me and my sister, brotherand my mom.
And I just found that reallyinteresting that how little he
cared about those worldly thingsat the, you know, at the end of
(38:41):
his life.
Right.
It's a lesson, right?
Like we can listen to the lessonor we can just wait and learn it
ourselves when we're older andsay, Oh, they were right.
We get to say they're, they'reprobably right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, I mean, we've talked aboutsome things, but what do you
feel like when you look around,what are some ways that women
(39:02):
can help men step more into.
Healthy masculinity withoutsaying to them, Hey, you need to
be more masculine.
Or this is, this is the partthat I worry about, right.
Coming off as this is thewomen's responsibility because
it absolutely is not.
But that's not what I'm sayingeither.
I'm just saying that, like, I dofeel like we impact each other.
(39:22):
And so are there ways that wecould at least make it easier?
There you go.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so and I, I had thisconversation a couple of times
with my wife over the last weekor two, and you know, I think
the biggest thing that wives cando to help their husband, it
(39:44):
comes, kind of comes down to anyof the leadership principles,
right?
Is, is give them opportunity,back off, give them enough space
and opportunity to makemistakes.
And then, and then praise themwhen they do well, right?
So, it's just like our kids,right?
Like, if you, if you take yourkid and you just say, you know,
(40:05):
do this, this, this, and this,they don't really ever learn
anything, right?
You say, hey, like, go, I needyou to go take care of the yard,
they're going to make mistakes.
Like, the first few times theymow the lawn, it's going to look
terrible, right?
But, but the failure is part ofthe process.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then when they do a goodjob, you're like, wow, that was
(40:26):
fantastic.
Great.
And then they start to learn.
I don't think we realize, andmaybe, you know, I've never been
a woman, so I don't know whatfeelings are, but I know as a
man.
I get almost no, in my life, I,I get almost no positive
feedback, right?
(40:46):
I get a lot of negativefeedback, but I, you know, like
when, when I get positivefeedback, like I'll write it in,
like, I'll make a note of it.
Like it just doesn't happen,right?
Like it's, you get, you know, inwork you get, well, and I'm
probably a little differentcause I've never had a boss.
I've always worked for myself.
So I've never had, you're notpatting yourself on the back,
(41:08):
are you?
Yeah.
There's no way to pat me on theback and say, Hey, job today.
But, but as men, we get verylittle positive feedback.
So I, I mean, I think a littlebit you know, give your
husband's room to make mistakes.
And then when they.
Do what?
What works for you then?
Then let'em know.
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
I love that.
(41:28):
Okay, so a little more praisenow.
Like we've talked about womenbeing a lot in their children's
lives, which I don't think isbad because I'm like, this is
how this is.
You know, moms have these littlekids.
Dads are off at work often.
Not all the time.
But certainly, you know, arethere things you feel like as
mothers, we can help our sons?
(41:49):
kind of develop into, you know,just kind of embracing their,
their masculine energy, theirmasculinity in a way that is
good instead of maybe hinderingsome of that.
Yeah, I, I definitely do.
This is something I'm, I'mactually quite passionate about
you know, helping peopleunderstand, you know, men and
women.
I mean, more, my world is alittle bit more helping the men,
(42:11):
but you know, when, when kidsare little, I mean, they need
their mom, right?
Like they're solely independent,they're dependent on their, on
somebody around them.
They can't do anything forthemselves, right?
As they get older they need Youknow, they need more
(42:31):
responsibility.
Right.
So and some of that is, isreally easy.
Right.
You know, if you want toencourage your, your son to be
more masculine, Hey, help mewith the groceries.
They're heavy.
Right.
And then all of a sudden he,like, he's proud of that.
Hey, you know what?
Like I stepped up, I helped mom.
Like my oldest boy, like he wasa huge kid.
I don't know where to get mywife.
(42:53):
Well, you're You live just downthe street from my sister in
law.
So, you know, how small theirfamily is.
Yes My wife's tiny and i'm not ahuge guy either But my oldest
son like he's a monster like andso even as a kid And so my wife
would get him all the time.
Hey, come help me lift this comehelp Even when he was like seven
or eight he was out and you knowthat for him was a really good.
(43:14):
Hey, like i'm You You know, I'mmanly.
I'm, I'm strong.
I'm, I'm, I'm actually of use tothe world.
Right.
Yeah.
The other thing is not like, ifyou criticize, like we talked
about before.
So like boys in school, right.
They don't learn like girls.
(43:34):
So if your son, if you're tryingto, so the story I always tell
is we were, I remember doingfamily home evening one time.
And this is when we only hadthree kids.
We had my daughter, my oldest isa girl, and then we had two
boys, and then we've got twogirls at the end, almost like,
almost like a second family.
They're quite, the girls at theend are quite a bit younger.
Yeah.
(43:55):
So we had, just had the oldestthree, and like, especially my
younger son, like, he wasjumping off the couches, and
he's running around, and I'mlike, Like, I remember thinking,
what, like, why am I doing this?
This is nonsense.
Like they're getting zero out ofthis.
What a waste of time.
And then at the end, my wifeasked a question and my son knew
every answer.
He, he got everything.
(44:16):
He knew everything that had beengoing on.
Right.
But he, like I say, I don'tthink he sat down the entire
time we talked about it.
And so, you know, realizingthat, you know, let your boys
Learn how they learn.
Don't don't think that they needto learn.
(44:38):
The way that everybody elselearned.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
I think that is so, so good.
So I love those suggestions.
I know we also had talked aboutkind of protecting our, our
Maybe doing too much for ourboys.
I mean, I think we do do muchfor our girls.
My daughter, my daughter has atwo year old and when she
finally gave her a spoon to feedherself her own cereal, my
(45:00):
daughter was like, oh mygoodness, this is terrible.
I was like, listen, you're justuncomfortable with a mess.
But the more you help her, thelonger this is going to take her
to do.
So if you'll just let her feedherself, no matter the mess this
is going to make, right, thebetter off you're both going to
be in the long run, because youdon't want to be spoon feeding
this girl forever.
And oh, yeah, but it's so, somuch of what we try and control
(45:22):
with our kids is because we'reuncomfortable.
I don't want to watch them do itthis way.
Exactly.
And women, for whatever reason,their makeup is a little,
they're a little lesscomfortable with that than dads,
right?
Like moms generally, like dadshave a little easier time
letting their kids make mistakesand figure things out, right?
I don't know why that is, butmoms generally have more of a
(45:45):
tendency to be like, no, I'mjust going to take over and get
through it.
Right.
Yeah.
So the other thing, and it goesreally in close with this, is
this idea of repression, right?
So.
We so like I call it the thegateway fallacy Like you've all
(46:06):
heard of gateway drugs.
Yeah, like yeah, you know, soeverybody the idea And it's a
terrible like it and actuallyit's a it's a really logical
Concept it just happens to becompletely true right the idea
that if you take Caffeine orcannabis that, you know, that's
the gateway to being on heroinor crack, right?
And in entire countries, most ofthe Western world has built
(46:29):
their entire drug policy aroundthis this gateway fallacy and it
just proves not to be true,right?
And so we tend to, and forwhatever reason, it's a little
more, the idea is stuck aroundlonger through religious groups
than it has through the rest ofthe society.
But so when you talk about your,your sons repressing their
(46:52):
aggression or their anger orwhatever is actually going to
be, is going to cause it to comeout in more unhealthy ways.
Oh, okay.
Right?
So, if you give your kidshealthy outlets, and, and
whether this is boys or girls,right?
Like, if your, if your kid iscompetitive, if your kid's
aggressive, if your kid's youknow, whatever and you try and
(47:17):
repress that they're going tolike, it's going to find
unhealthy ways to man itself.
Manifest itself, right?
Like, that's the whole ideabehind the movie fight club,
right?
Is he was so repressed over somany years that.
He goes into a disassociatedstate and then ruins his whole
life, right?
Right.
(47:37):
That's, that's an extremeexample, right?
But I think that's one of thethings that we, as parents,
that's one of our biggest jobsis helping our children find
healthy ways to excel healthyoutlets for their skills or
their, right.
Whether that's sports, whetherthat's, you know,
(48:00):
outdoorsmanship, whether that'syou know, some kids are really
into art and math, right?
Like, like the best artists inthe world are like a little bit
of their art is quitedisturbing, right?
The best musicians in the world,like you listen to the lyric,
like I, I really got into this.
sO there's a theory that musichas gotten more unhealthy.
(48:22):
So, so the, the, your favoritesongs will tell you what your
attachment style is.
And so if you listen to thesongs, they, and listen to the
lyrics.
And so I went back and listenedto songs that I you know, liked
throughout my entire life andstarted listening to the
message.
And I was like, wow, yeah,that's, I have an unhealthy
attachment style.
(48:45):
And the, and songs was anunhealthy attachment style of
actually increased over thelast.
X number of years, right?
And we were having more and moretroubles, right?
And so these, this idea that we,we need to give people outlets
for those, they don't come outin unhealthy ways and helping
(49:05):
our kids, I think is probablyone of our most important jobs
as parents, right?
Helping them develop theirskills.
Right.
Yeah.
So really it sounds like.
If we want them to be dangerous,but under control, we have to
like be teaching that as, asthey're little of how to like.
Like, how can you express thiswithout hitting your sister over
(49:28):
the head or whatever, right?
Like, how, how can we kind ofchannel this in a way?
Because obviously there is meantto be self control.
There is meant to be lessonslearned.
But yeah, I kind of, I like whatyou're saying of just, you know,
really, If we want them to growup to have, to be healthy men
with healthy masculinity, it'ssomething that we need to start
(49:51):
in our homes, kind of helpingthem develop this like control,
but not repressed.
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
So good.
I cannot thank you enough forcoming on today and sharing.
All of this just because I justthink it's good for most of my
listeners are women, not all ofthem, but just to be able to
(50:11):
hear a little bit of a man'sperspective, even just you
saying like, I just get suchlittle praise was so impactful
for me to hear I was like, Oh,Yeah.
Like, because I have talkedrecently on my podcast about
cherishing and the idea ofreally cherishing your spouse
and what that feels like to becherished.
(50:32):
And when you were talking, I waslike, yeah, there just needs to
be more like praise and love andjust, you know, love.
outward vocalizing of, of howgood your husband is to him and
the impact of that.
So is there one, any one lastthing you want to share before
we kind of end here?
(50:54):
yeah, I mean, the biggest thingI would say is, you know, like
you say, most of your listenersare women, right?
And so Just that idea ofencouragement to men, right?
Like, like just what you weresharing before, that that was
impactful, that encouraging yourhusbands, your sons rather than
(51:15):
discouraging them, you know Ithink is probably the, the
biggest difference that womencan make in the life of men,
right?
There's such a culture.
aRound this toxic masculinitythat we need to tell men all the
things they're doing wrong, butwe very rarely tell them what
(51:35):
they're doing well, or what weappreciate about them.
Yeah, so so good.
I thank you so much for comingon today.
If people want to reach out toyou or they want to listen to
your podcast, what are the bestways for people to really hear
more of what you have to say?
Is the podcast the best way?
Do you have other means?
Yeah, so my podcast is Abraham'sSon's 52.
(51:56):
Yeah, it's on most of the majorplatforms.
I haven't figured out how to getit up on Apple Music yet, but
all all the other majorplatforms it's on.
Okay.
And I'm on Twitter.
Okay.
I'm on Facebook through, samething.
Abraham's Son's 52.
Okay.
So you can reach out throughthose platforms or, you know,
(52:17):
you can email me at john atripleyconstruction, full word,
dot ca.
Okay.
I will link all of that in theshow notes so that everyone can
find that if they want to.
John, thank you so, so much forcoming on.
I so appreciate thisconversation and hopefully we'll
(52:37):
talk again.
Yeah, no, that's exciting.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening today.
If you like what you hear on thepodcast, and you'd like to learn
more, feel free to head over tomy website.
Jamilin Stephan coaching.com orfind me on Instagram or Facebook
at Jamileh.
step in coaching.
I'm jamielynn Stephan and thisis what to wanted.
(00:02):
Episode number 113 healthymasculinity with John Ripley.
Welcome to want to want it apodcast for women of the church
of Jesus Christ of latter daysaints who are ready to ignite
not only their sexual desire,but all of their desires to
create a more fulfilling lifeand marriage.
I'm jamielynn Stephan.
I'm a certified life coach, awife, and a mother of seven
(00:24):
children.
I'm excited to share my personaljourney to desire with you and
teach you how to desire more aswell hello everybody.
Welcome to the podcast today.
I am actually really excitedbecause Not very often do I have
a male guest on my show.
And so today I have John Ripleyjoining me to talk about men and
(00:47):
masculinity, healthymasculinity, and some things
that he feels really called todo in the world of men.
So John, can you just give uskind of an introduction about
yourself?
Tell us a little about you.
Sure.
I'm first of all, thank you somuch.
You know, I'm just gettingstarted in the podcast world and
this is a huge benefit to me andI really appreciate, you helping
(01:08):
me along here.
So the other thing I just kindof wanted to say before we
started is I'm a little worriedtoday we'll come off is that I
think that, You know, because ofthe nature of this interview
where you're the podcast hostand you're asking about what
women need to understand aboutmen, that this might come off as
me thinking that it's women'sresponsibility.
(01:28):
And that's the exact opposite ofmy message.
I think the, the real importantthing or what I'm really trying
to get out is for men to startto take more control of their
lives and their relationshipwith God and their relationship
with the world around them.
sO just about me, I, I'm I'mgetting older, I'm nearing 50
(01:49):
years old and I am no expert inthings by any means, but I've
made a lot of mistakes and Ikind of hope to help people
along to understand so, so I canhelp people avoid the mistakes
I've made.
Right.
Okay.
Okay.
Thank you.
We talked a little bit beforewe, you know, last time about
when we thought we'd talk aboutdoing a podcast.
(02:12):
I really feel called to this.
I started, I, my daughter was ona mission.
She was struggling with youknow, just struggling with their
mission in general, likecommissions are right.
And so our mission presidentkept telling her You know, if
you keep working hard, yourfamily back home will be blessed
and, and, you know, the bestthing you can do for your family
is just do a good job of yourmission.
(02:33):
And, and so she kept writinghome and saying you know, can
you guys see the blessings inyour lives?
And, and we kind of ignored itfor the first few times or I
definitely ignored the first fewtimes because we were just
really struggling.
We were having some financialproblems.
You know, we're having, youknow, just just a lot of
different problems, right?
Not hard problems, but just,just life wasn't, definitely was
(02:57):
not running smooth.
And so finally I, you know, shekept asking, I thought, well,
okay, I can't ignore it anymore.
And so I wrote a letter or anemail saying how we don't get
blessed necessarily the way theLord or the way we would like to
get blessed.
We get blessed in the way thatthe Lord wants us to progress,
(03:18):
right?
Sometimes our trials are, youknow, our biggest trials turn
out to be our best, our biggestblessings because that's what
the Lord wants us to do.
So I wrote that and it helped mydaughter.
It was great, but then I justcouldn't leave it alone.
And I, I just kept fiddling withit.
And I, I kind of copied andpasted what I.
I sent my daughter into a worddocument and I just expanded on
(03:39):
it pretty soon.
I had 000 words.
And so at that time I thought,well, let's kind of round this
out.
And I got an editor and we kindof rounded it out into a little
bit of a book.
And that's, that's the first fewepisodes of my podcast.
It's called grace to grace.
It's, um, kind of talking abouthow we progress line upon line
(04:01):
and our trials kind of help us.
Become who, who the Lord wantsus to become, not necessarily
who we think we should become,but who the Lord wants us to
become.
And that's kind of been myjourney.
And I, I, I've struggled withtrying to figure out how to get
the message out.
I still don't know where this isall going to go.
I, I just feel like it'ssomething that the Lord has
(04:21):
asked me to do.
And, and I'm just kind of,Feeling it out as I go, I guess.
Right, right.
So what's the name of yourpodcast then?
So my, my podcast is actuallycalled Abraham Sons 52.
So the Abraham Sons is areference to our covenants.
anD it, it, it's not geared justtowards people who are of the
(04:44):
Church of Jesus Christ ability.
Church of Jesus Christ of Latterday Saints.
It's geared towards men of allfaiths.
And it's basically a referenceto, you know, figuring out how
to keep our covenants within theworld, the modern world we live
in.
And then the 52 is a reference.
That's the year my father wasborn.
And so that's in my life, I feellike he, my dad's a convert.
(05:08):
And so I feel like he is thegenerational link.
Between, um, the, the priesthoodlink, right?
So before him had the priesthoodbut those of us after do, and he
is now on the other side workingwith those who were previously,
you know we're unable to, togain some of those blessings
(05:29):
here on earth.
Yeah.
So when we first talked, youkind of said to me, I feel
called, I feel like I have thismission to help men of faith.
Live up to their full potential.
Is that right?
It is.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And so for you, what does thatmean?
Like what, when you say that,what, what does that mean for
(05:50):
you that they're living up totheir full potential?
So, you know, and it's a toughquestion, right?
Because it's a little differentfor everybody.
Right.
But in a broader sense, it's We,first of all, one of the biggest
problem, we talked a little bitabout this when we talked about
the podcast idea is that, youknow, our world is really
(06:11):
emasculating men.
You know, and we've, we've lostthe touch between healthy
masculinity, right?
So we, you know, everybodyunderstands toxic masculinity
and we, we talk about that alot, but we don't talk about
healthy masculinity and whatthat means.
And there's been some onlinestuff, some online discussion,
(06:31):
but a lot of that is missing thecovenants with our, with God
part.
I think that's really where, youknow, I fit in, right?
Okay.
Is that, you know, figuring out,you know, first of all, the
healthy masculinity part, butalso adding in part of that is
our relationship with God andkeeping those covenants.
That we all make, regardless ofwhat religion we we adhere to,
(06:57):
we all have you know, covenantsor a relationship with, with our
father in heaven, right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
So just for my listeners, what,what do you define as toxic
masculinity?
Like, what do you feel like thatmeans?
So, you know, and a lot ofpeople say there's no such thing
as toxic masculinity, and Idon't subscribe to that, because
(07:17):
you see it play out a lot youknow, and, and a lot of times it
comes through in, well, so, sothe biggest issue, like you're
seeing all the school shootings.
Right?
So that's men they're young mennot understanding how to express
themselves, right?
They're getting frustrated inlife and they come out and, you
(07:38):
know, at some point this becomesa realistic manifestation of
their masculinity, right?
So one of the interesting thingsis the vast majority of school
shooters, Grow up in fatherlesshomes, you know, they have a
lack of example of healthymasculinity, right?
(08:02):
And so the, so we talked alittle bit about fight club, the
movie fight club, right?
Yes.
Yeah.
Go ahead.
So I actually sat down and like,when I was driving.
And I spent a lot of timethinking about that movie, and
the more I thought about it, themore I thought that should be
required viewing for everyparent, like when you have a son
(08:22):
in the hospital, they shouldjust put it on the screen and
force you to watch it beforethey allow you to take your
child home, right?
And, and so what that movie isall about, and I'm going to ruin
the movie, so if you haven'tseen it, maybe you want to shut
this part off, but it's a 20year old movie, so I don't.
I feel like I'm, I'm wrecking itfor anybody.
(08:42):
That's okay.
I've never seen it and go ahead,wreck it for me.
Yeah, wreck it for you.
So the, the whole movie is abouta man who is trapped.
So he works in a cubicle and thecubicle represents the box that
the world has put him in andMore specifically, the women in
(09:02):
his life has put him in one ofthe best lines in the movie is
about like we're a generation ofmen raised by women.
So the rest of the movie or theentirety of the movie is the
unhealthy manifestation of hisrepressed masculinity.
Right.
And so, so I think that's whatwe're seeing so much in the
world is because men havemasculinity has been so
(09:25):
repressed that it's coming outin very unhealthy ways.
And that's the whole fight club.
These, this guy basicallycompletely destroys his entire
life because he's trying to findways to express his masculinity.
He starts a fight club.
He travels.
He gets.
In all kinds of trouble, loseshis house.
He moves into this house with abunch of, you know, alcoholics
(09:49):
and drug addicts and whatever.
And and so that's the, that'sthe unhealthy masculinity.
And we're seeing that even inthe online world a little bit,
right?
Where some of these guys, someof them have, you know, Like
even, even the guys who are verymasculine and have some
unhealthy views, you know,there, there's a big draw to
(10:12):
them because there is such alack of, you know, healthy
masculinity stereotypes orhealthy masculinity examples.
Yeah.
Okay.
So you're just saying like toxicmasculinity is kind of like this
losing of your temper.
Like out of control, anger,maybe the, what people would say
(10:32):
was this, you know, dominatingof women kind of idea.
That's the toxic side.
Yes.
Yes.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
But then, so you have this kindof idea of like, there is
healthy masculinity and itdoesn't have to be like, you
need to feel shame about being aman now.
(10:54):
It can actually be embracingbeing a man.
So when you, when you thinkabout what that would actually
mean.
And again, of course, everyoneis different, but in general,
what would kind of be yourdefinition or idea of like, this
would be a healthy.
A man who had healthymasculinity, he would be like
this or have these kind ofcharacteristics.
What would that be?
(11:15):
I actually this morning had agreat thought and I wrote it
down a little bit.
So if you read in Matthew 5,Matthew chapter 5 verse 5,
that's the Beatitudes and ittalks about how the meat shall
inherit the earth.
If you actually do a study ofthe word meek, it comes from the
(11:37):
Greek word and I'm going tobutcher the pronunciation here,
but it's perus, and, and it'snot an incorrect interpretation
when we say meek or mild or, butthe, just like we use the word
cool in different contexts.
The word perus was actuallymostly used in connection with
(12:01):
Greek warhorses.
Okay.
And so the, the idea being thatthese, they had these great,
magnificent, strong, capablehorses, but they were under
control.
Okay.
And so when, when Christ saysthe meek shall inherit the
earth, we're not, what he'sbasically saying is the
(12:23):
powerful, the dangerous, Thatare able to keep that under
control will inherit the earth.
I do remember hearing a talk onmeekness from Elder Bednar and
he talked about how he's likemeekness is not weakness like
there is a strength, like themeek have strength and so okay
(12:44):
so that's part of it you'resaying it's You have power, but
you're in control.
Yes.
Okay.
And I think that's the, probablythe, the you know, if you wanted
to take it and kind of coin thehealthy masculinity, that would
be the definition, right?
It's dangerous, but undercontrol.
Dangerous, but under control.
(13:05):
When violence is the answer,they'll use violence, but until
then, no.
Yeah.
And, and danger doesn'tnecessarily mean violent danger.
Okay.
Okay.
I mean, there's definitelydifferent ways.
So in my world, I'm in theconstruction world, right?
And you see all kinds ofunhealthy situations.
Like, I'm currently in asituation where a guy's trying
(13:27):
to, like, I've got a contractfor a job.
A guy, the general contractorand I have had a falling out and
he's trying to take advantage ofme and trying to do different
things.
And so, you know, dangerous inthat sense is that I know the
laws, I know my rights, I knowthe, also the, the great areas
(13:48):
of the world where I can defendmy position.
In order to provide for me andmy family in order to control
the situation.
So I could also use those thatknowledge.
Like, I've been in theconstruction industry for a long
time.
I could also use that knowledgefor evil.
(14:10):
Where I want to take advantageof people on construction in the
construction world as well,right?
So it's so that Capability thatwe learn in life can be used for
good or it can be used for forevil, right?
and so the the idea of beingmasculine or Meek is the idea
(14:32):
that we we develop thosecapabilities, but we they're
under control We're not justRunning around as a loose can
and trying to, you know, disruptthe whole world, right?
Right.
Right.
Yeah.
A bridled, a bridled horse.
Yeah.
Okay.
So show up a lot in thescriptures, don't we?
Oh yeah.
So much.
(14:52):
So much.
Right.
It's like, yeah.
When, when we are meant to be incontrol all right.
Yeah.
For sure.
So what do you feel like aresome of the obstacles?
In the way of men really kind ofdeveloping healthy masculinity,
like what, what things are theydoing to themselves?
(15:13):
And what do you see outside inthe outside world that impacts
this?
So, I mean, let's, first of all,I, one of the things that I'm
passionate about, one of theconversations I want to have as
many times to as many people asI can is, is this idea of what
we're doing to young men.
This is where, where I think theproblems in our, our, I mean,
(15:36):
we've got a lot of problems onour side, but this particular
problem starts at a very youngage.
anD it's, so.
Young men are raised mostly bymom.
So, after World War II, right,most, we kind of got away from
the agricultural society, right,men go off to work during the
day, boys are raised by theirmothers up through till they're
(15:57):
five or six, they go off toschool, they're raised by you
know, they, they spend a largeportion of their time with
female teachers at school.
And then they, that kind offollows them through.
And so, one of the biggestproblems with our school system
for young men is.
When you're in grade 1, 2, and3, young boys have a lot tougher
(16:19):
time sitting still than younggirls.
So what happens is, teachersays, you know, Tommy, why can't
you sit nice like Sally?
And pretty soon, boys learn thatit's not cool to do well in
school.
It's not, right?
None of the boys are doing wellin school.
It's the boys who are alwaysgetting in trouble, and it's the
girls.
(16:39):
We're sitting over here that theteacher those are the, I
wouldn't even say they're easierstudents to teach.
They're more what the femaleteacher understands, right?
She relates more to, you know,the girls than she does boys,
which is just natural, right?
And so pretty soon the boysjust, just start running out of
(17:02):
outlets.
More there for their masculineenergy.
So they start to act out, right.
They act out in school, they actout at home, they act out
wherever.
So I think that's a real problemin society and you're seeing
more and more of it, the wholeidea of, you know, no awards,
right?
Everybody gets an award.
There's no, no reward forwinning, no reward for doing
(17:25):
well.
You know, we don't score.
We don't.
Right.
And those, those aren'tmasculine.
Ideals, right?
Like no dad is taking their kidto soccer and being like, yeah,
we're not going to keep score.
Right.
Like dads are all about, Hey,like we're keeping score and my
kid's gonna, gonna whoop yourkid.
Right.
(17:45):
Like, and there's a lot of goodlife lessons in those, you know,
whether you win or lose, there'sgood life lessons.
Right.
I think that's one of theobstacles and or probably one of
the biggest things that we'reseeing the results of now.
Right.
Right.
It's just kind of, there's nospace for this building up and
(18:05):
encouraging some good positivemasculine behavior or energy or
right.
It's like, just fall in linehere.
Keep this easy.
Like sports are a great way for,for boys to learn.
Like when we talk about thatdefinition of masculinity,
powerful, but under control ordangerous, but under control.
Right.
I guess.
As a athlete, you compete forall your worth, and then the
(18:30):
whistle blows, and you stop.
Right?
Like, that's control.
Like, you, you're developing askill to be dangerous.
Like, or powerful.
But then when the whistle blows,you stop, you're friends again,
you, you move on, right?
And so if we take away thecompetitiveness of that, then
all of a sudden we're startingto to remove a lot of those
(18:53):
healthy masculine outlets.
Right.
Yeah.
So I guess there's this kind ofquestion in my mind a little bit
about, you know, This is what Isee and this could totally be
wrong.
This is just something that I'veseen when I look around the
world and maybe part of it hasbeen as more women have gone
into the workforce.
It's almost like there, theredoes seem to be, even though I
(19:14):
think on the one hand, men arelike, I feel kind of
emasculated.
On the other hand, there's likethis relief.
Because no, no longer are theykind of like, Oh, I meant to
provide for my family by myself.
That's like, I expect my wife tocontribute to that.
And, and again, not because Ithink it's bad if a man and a
woman are sharing thatresponsibility, but in some
(19:37):
ways, I almost feel like menhave, have been almost like, I
kind of love that there's a lotless pressure on me than there
was generations before to kindof step into these roles of
providing, leading reallytaking, like, like you talked
about, right.
It used to be boys were going tothe farm with their dad or onto
the ranch or whatever, right.
(19:58):
Learning the trade and havingthat.
And now it's almost like,there's a lot of men who are
just like, great.
Take care of the kids.
I I'm happy.
I'm going to work my long hoursand I'm going to come home and
sit here and, you know, and, andalmost like they kind of love it
now, maybe I'm wrong about that,but there, I think it would take
a lot of courage to maybe stepinto that.
(20:19):
Into more of the responsibilityaround, I agree.
And that, so, I mean, I alsolove to sit at home, eat cake
and watch movies all day.
But that's not good for me.
It doesn't make me happy and itdoesn't help me progress.
Right.
And so that's a lot of mymessage too.
(20:39):
Right.
Is that.
You know, if men want to behappier, they do have to start
to take control, right?
Like you can, like we can talkabout all they want, the
problems with the school systemor the problems, you know, way
young men are being raised.
If you're all of a sudden, nowyou're 30, you can look back and
say, yeah, this was a problem,but you can't go back and change
(21:00):
it, right?
The reality, this is where weare now.
If I want to have a better life,And I want to be happy, then I
need to start to take control ofthat.
And so if I don't, then, youknow, the, I'm not, first of
all, I'm not living up to mypotential, but I'm not living up
to the covenants and myrelationship with God, right?
(21:21):
Then we're supposed to be thespiritual leaders of our
household.
We're supposed to take controlof our life.
We're supposed to provide forour families.
We're supposed to, you know,raise our Children, right?
And be a part of their lives,right?
So is that easy?
And if somebody else will do it,then great.
Like that's one of my biggestfrustrations in Like I, my wife
and I have owned a constructioncompany for a long time, right?
(21:43):
And my biggest frustration whenwe hire, whether it's foreman or
superintendents or whatever,superintendents, because they're
good at what they do, will oftenstep in and take over for
whoever's underneath them.
Well, as soon as they do that acouple times, that person just
quits doing it.
Right.
Like, so you go and you'll setup, well, this is your
responsibility.
This is your responsibility.
(22:04):
This is your responsibility.
And you'll come back a monthlater and now this person isn't,
isn't doing it anymore.
And they're like, well, yeah,but you know, the boss always
does it for me.
So I just stopped doing it.
Right.
And you're like, but still yourresponsibility, like it's easier
for him to not do it.
Cause somebody to take over forthem, but still.
It needs to, he needs to learnthat that's his responsibility.
(22:26):
Yeah, and do it.
Yeah, I recently heard someonejust talking about, you know,
it's so important to makechoices that accrue to your self
respect.
It's like, so when, what you'redoing, even if it's feels kind
of the easy thing to do, do yourespect yourself at the end of
it?
And, and so I think I thinkthere is kind of this disrespect
(22:51):
for men.
I really do genuinely feel likethere's a lot of disrespect
towards men in the world and alot of diminishing of them and
putting them down.
And I, again, not because therehasn't been things that have
happened in the past that.
And, men aren't awesome, butit's like, these are, these are
human beings.
These are people and the waythat they're treated can be so
(23:11):
disrespectful.
And that at the same time we seeso many young men and men also
acting in ways that do not showthat they have self respect.
And again, that's something youhave to build and work on, but
may be very hard to develop in aworld that is so disrespectful
of you.
It is and if one of the problemslike if you look at popular
(23:34):
culture You know, how manysitcoms or movies portray men as
So you either get two extremes,right?
So you either get theincompetent man that the wife,
you know, taking, you know, justraising as another child in the
family, more or less, or you getthe ultra masculine man, who's
saving the world, right?
(23:55):
I think there's very little inbetween portrayed in our.
popular culture.
Like, you know, there's no, hey,this guy's just a good man, a
good dad, and good provider.
And right, like you don't seethat portrayed anymore, right?
Yes.
And I think a lot of peopledon't even understand that
that's the goal anymore, right?
That's right.
And so you're right.
It is.
(24:16):
It is.
Difficult for, you know, men,young men to, to even figure out
what they should be doing, what,what the role model is, what the
goal is.
And, and that's a lot of theproblems and that's a lot of my
message.
That's really what I want to betrying to do is explain to men
that, Hey, this, this is me.
(24:36):
This is bad for society, butit's bad for you too.
Right.
Thank you for listening.
Totally, totally.
Okay.
So we're, we're trying to bemore of this healthy, masculine
person.
Where does vulnerability fitinto this?
Because on the one hand, right,I think kind of that toxic
masculinity, that, that shorttemper is a lot of trying to
protect vulnerabilities.
(24:58):
There's there, even though Ithink we're in a world that is
trying to be better, there isstill kind of messaging, like
don't cry.
Do you don't have a hard day,right?
And so like, what, what is,what's your opinion on men and
just being vulnerable, beingshowing weakness is, do you feel
like that is important?
(25:18):
What's your, what's your thoughton that?
Yeah.
And I think in short, it kind ofgoes back to the same message we
had before is that yes, butunder control, right?
Like you, as, as a leader, Youcan't, there's times you just
can't be vulnerable, right?
Whether you're the leader ofyour family or the leader of a
company or the leader of anyorganization, there's times when
(25:42):
the people that you're in chargeof need to see you as the, you
know, the strong, competentleader.
That doesn't mean that there isalso times that they don't need
to see that, Hey, you're, you'revulnerable, that you have
struggles just like the rest ofus.
And Hey, you know what?
I'm struggling today.
(26:02):
Can you help me?
Right?
Or, um, you know, and I thinkthere's a lot more room for
vulnerability within a healthyrelationship, right?
So whether that's with yourspouse, with your kids, with,
you know.
With your friends, whatever,right?
I, I do think one of the bigproblems we have in culture now
(26:26):
is we expect our spouses to beeverything for us, right?
We, right?
Because our world's got busy andwe don't have as many outlets,
we expect our spouse you know,to be our best friend, to be our
outlet for everything that wehave, to be our sexual partner,
to be whatever.
And sometimes your spouse justisn't capable of some of those
(26:49):
roles, right?
Like they, they're just peopletoo.
Just, and you're not thatperson.
That your spouse needs in everysituation either, right?
It kind of goes both ways.
So, trying to find other healthyoutlets for some of these
issues.
Because sometimes, you know, Ithink, I think it was you that
talked about it last time, thatthere's situations where you,
(27:11):
you know, you say, said to yourhusband, well, hey, I'd like to
talk about this.
And he's like, not now.
Right.
And he just couldn't deal withit.
And, and I think, you know, thathappens in our relationship too,
but you still have to havesomewhere to go.
Right.
You still have to have somewhereto have an outlet.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that is true.
I think there is a lot ofpressure sometimes to, to be, to
(27:32):
feel like, no, but you have tobe everything for me.
And that is, that is a lot.
It is a lot, but on the otherhand, I also see the value in
stepping into the discomfort.
Of the things that areuncomfortable to do in your
marriage.
Right.
Like when it is, I mean, you andI discussed this before of this
idea of like feeling like, youknow, men are on this white
(27:54):
horse and they can't fall offthe horse, right?
Yeah.
It's like, actually it would bereally good for more women to
get more comfortable with theirhusband falling off the horse.
Right?
And yeah, so I, I think the rethe way we got on that topic
last time was and I wish I, Icould find it, but there was,
just a tick tock or a reel of alady who wrote a book about this
(28:16):
you know, for women beingvulnerable and women kind of
accepting that.
And the guy kind of, he broughthis wife and daughter to the
book signing.
And he asked the lady, you know,do you ever interview men?
And she says, no, I don't, Idon't really work with men.
And he says, well, that'sconvenient.
And then he says, says the lady,you see my wife and daughter,
who you just signed a book for,they would rather see me die on
(28:40):
my white horse than ever falloff.
And I think we talked a littlebit about how You know, our
spouse or dad or whoeversometimes is that wall between
us and the scary chaos that isthe rest of the world.
And so, yeah, it's terrifying tosee that person fall off there
or get off voluntarily get offtheir white horse, right?
(29:01):
Like you, you expect them to bethere your knight in shining
armor and going.
And be that wall between you andthe rest of the world.
Right.
And so, um, you know, and that'skind of a little bit about this,
where's room for vulnerability.
Sometimes there, there isn't asmuch room as we would like as
men, because we, we do need tobe that wall between.
(29:23):
The chaos of the world and ourfamilies, right?
Yeah, but even sometimes maybe,and I don't know, but like, is
it possible that just morehonest conversation, like, I
don't know what the white horsenecessarily represents to
everybody, but even being ableto say, like, This is hard
today.
I'm gonna do it.
Like, I'm getting up.
I'm going to work.
I'm going out there.
(29:44):
I'm slaying the dragon.
But I like, I feel blue today.
I feel intimidated.
I, whatever, like being able to,even, even though it's not going
to change your action, it'slike, can I tell my wife what is
real for me?
And even if that shakes her alittle bit, that's okay, because
it helps her actually learn totake care of herself a little
(30:08):
more, maybe step up in adifferent way, and if nothing
else, creates a little moreintimacy in your marriage.
I agree with that.
I think that's a, a temptationwe all fall prey to at times
where we're like, you know what,like my wife's struggling or
she's having a bad day.
So I'm just gonna pretendeverything's great.
Right.
And then you kind of get stuckin that where you, you know,
(30:28):
you're not happy.
You're, you know, and this goesback to, well, like one of the,
one of the things I seehappening so much with, with
modern feminism is women arealways clamoring for it.
We want the right to work.
We want the right.
And men are sitting here on theother side.
This sucks.
That's why they gotta pay me togo to work.
(30:49):
'cause I hate it.
Right?
And so you're thinking that thisis some reward that I get, that
I'm excited to get out, roll outof bed at 6:00 AM and, and you
know, put on my work boots andgo to this miserable job that I
hate.
I, you know.
Mm-Hmm.
And so for Ben to say, I don'tlike this, right?
This isn't what I want to bedoing.
I'm doing this for you and thefamily, this is a sacrifice.
(31:11):
I'm making like you say, itwould bring the closer, the
wives would understand a lotmore.
You know why he comes home atthe end of the day and he
doesn't want to do X or Ybecause like he's, he just had a
long day doing stuff he doesn'twant to do because, and he does
(31:33):
it for you and the kids.
And so when, when the wife says,Hey, you know, I really want to
go on vacation.
And he's like, well, I can'tafford vacation.
He's not, you know, he might actout, but it's because he's
frustrated because of the factthat I'm doing the best I can.
I'm sorry, I can't Also do dothis, right?
Yeah.
(31:54):
So like you say expressing thata little bit Yeah, I'm gonna get
up and go to work today, eventhough I really don't want to
helps To help for the familiesto try and figure out and the
relationship what each other isgiving, right?
Mm hmm.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I just think maybe a little morehonesty is actually okay.
(32:15):
I, I think in our minds, we'relike, this is how I protect
people.
But I think we're actuallyreally good at, at seeing what's
happening for people.
And so I think sometimes for awife, you're watching and you
know, like something's like notright here, but you can't
pinpoint it because nothing'sbeing said.
And so I think sometimes justspeaking the words, even though
(32:36):
it does feel scary andvulnerable and maybe your wife
is going to have a little freakout, right?
And it's like, can I hold myselftogether while she kind of has a
little freak out here becausethis is good for us to actually
be in an honest relationshipwhere, you know, it's not about.
It's like me clinging to thiswhite horse, even though I'm
(32:57):
dying on top of it, right?
It's like, I do think, you know,and that's something, you know,
the, the white lies we tell allthe time are a lot more
detrimental than people realize.
Right.
And, and we tell white lies allthe time because we think we're
being kind, right?
Like if your wife comes to youand says, Hey, do I look fat in
(33:18):
this?
I mean, you know, Yeah, it's atrap run.
Right.
But, but when you tell her that,yes, you look great, that's,
that's to make your life easier.
Because if you tell her, yeah,that, that dress doesn't fit you
like it did last year, that'sgoing to be an uncomfortable
(33:41):
conversation.
But I, but they do a lot moredamage than we realize.
A hundred percent.
I agree.
And I, I think we need to be,you know, that would be one of
the things I would telleverybody.
Stop telling white lies, right?
Like I've seen, seen it go bothways, right?
Like you see a lot of women wholike, especially within our
(34:07):
culture in the church They thinkthat if they don't love raising
little kids, that they'reterrible people, right?
And a lot of women don't, youknow, it's not that they don't
love their kids, but they don'tparticularly like little kids.
And when they're stuck at homefor, you know, 60, 70 hours a
(34:27):
week with little kids, they're,they're miserable.
And, but they don't ever feellike.
They can say, Hey, this makes memiserable because that would say
like to them, that would belike, well, I'm not a good mom.
I'm not a good person.
I'm, I'm a terrible Latter daySaint.
If I don't love raising kids.
Right.
(34:48):
And on the flip side of that,like, this is the other thing is
that.
So for men, I remember this asa, when my kids were little I
would love.
Nice.
My wife is amazing with littlekids.
Like, she loves little kids.
She's the best mom ever.
And I'm not.
I'm not very patient.
Although I love kids, I'm notparticularly good with them.
(35:10):
Right?
So the, so the role of me goingto work and providing for the
family and her staying home withthe kids is definitely what's
best for the family.
But I hated it.
Right?
Right?
Like so, you know, when I wasoff working and I'm missing
first steps, or I'm missing, youknow, I remember missing
Halloweens, missing birthdays,missing whatever, because I'm
(35:32):
off trying to provide for myfamily.
Like that's brutal, right?
Like it kind of goes both ways.
And if you're not having honestconversations about both sides
of that, then no one, neitherside realizes what the other is
struggling with.
Yes.
A hundred percent.
And I think we get competitivealmost, right?
(35:53):
Like whose life is harder.
Right?
And I, I've been in my ownmarriage for sure.
And I see it in so manymarriages where, you know, they,
they are having theseconversations and it's just
this, like, who is sufferingmore right now?
Because whoever that is, is the,is the best.
They're the winner.
Instead of just being like, Hey,What both of us are doing here
(36:14):
is hard work and it's requiringa lot of us.
And, but as a team, look whatwe're creating because we're
both willing to sacrifice.
Just like you were saying,right?
Like we're creating somethingfantastic here.
And I miss birthdays and my wifenever gets a break from the
kids.
And These are, these are thesacrifices that we make to
create this family that we want.
And I just think if we couldeliminate some of the
(36:35):
competitiveness, but just likethe, this feminist movement that
I feel like has gone beyondfeminism, right.
It's created so much morecompetition.
Yeah, it's kind of trained us tocompete with men instead of
looking and saying, how do weactually work well together and
collaborate well by playing toour strengths to create
(36:56):
something really amazing here.
Well, the other big problem withthe feminist movement is the
lies it tells.
Well, both sides, right?
Women and men, right.
But it's telling women thatthey're, you know, that their
careers are going to bring themmore joy.
And it's, and it's also byenlarging men, that that's what
(37:17):
you should be focusing on isthat your careers are more
important here.
But, you know, we, We should beworking to live, not living to
work.
Right.
I mean, when you're 70 or 80,like my both my parents have
passed away in the last coupleof years.
Right.
And, you know, when we're and Iwas with both of my parents at
the time of their passing, andneither one of them cared about
(37:39):
work, right?
Or what they'd accomplish intheir career.
My dad was a farmer and I spentthe last, I don't know, probably
four or five nights of his life,I spent in the hotel my mom
would go, or in the hospital mymom would go go home and sleep
and I would stay, stay the nightwith my dad.
And I told him one morning, Isaid, Dad, like, I mean, you're
(37:59):
going to die anyways.
Like, if you want to go back tothe farm, I'll figure out how to
get you out of here, right?
Like, I'll, I'll break you out,we'll go back to the farm and
like you know, you can spendsome of your last minutes there.
And he said, you know, eventhough I love the farm, that's
where I spent my whole life.
He, he, he lived on the farm,the same farm as a kid that he
(38:20):
had as an adult.
Like he, you know, he loved it.
He said, that's not what'simportant.
Right.
Like what's important is thepeople that are around, you
know, me and my sister, brotherand my mom.
And I just found that reallyinteresting that how little he
cared about those worldly thingsat the, you know, at the end of
(38:41):
his life.
Right.
It's a lesson, right?
Like we can listen to the lessonor we can just wait and learn it
ourselves when we're older andsay, Oh, they were right.
We get to say they're, they'reprobably right.
Yeah.
Okay.
So, I mean, we've talked aboutsome things, but what do you
feel like when you look around,what are some ways that women
(39:02):
can help men step more into.
Healthy masculinity withoutsaying to them, Hey, you need to
be more masculine.
Or this is, this is the partthat I worry about, right.
Coming off as this is thewomen's responsibility because
it absolutely is not.
But that's not what I'm sayingeither.
I'm just saying that, like, I dofeel like we impact each other.
(39:22):
And so are there ways that wecould at least make it easier?
There you go.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so and I, I had thisconversation a couple of times
with my wife over the last weekor two, and you know, I think
the biggest thing that wives cando to help their husband, it
(39:44):
comes, kind of comes down to anyof the leadership principles,
right?
Is, is give them opportunity,back off, give them enough space
and opportunity to makemistakes.
And then, and then praise themwhen they do well, right?
So, it's just like our kids,right?
Like, if you, if you take yourkid and you just say, you know,
(40:05):
do this, this, this, and this,they don't really ever learn
anything, right?
You say, hey, like, go, I needyou to go take care of the yard,
they're going to make mistakes.
Like, the first few times theymow the lawn, it's going to look
terrible, right?
But, but the failure is part ofthe process.
Okay.
Yeah.
And then when they do a goodjob, you're like, wow, that was
(40:26):
fantastic.
Great.
And then they start to learn.
I don't think we realize, andmaybe, you know, I've never been
a woman, so I don't know whatfeelings are, but I know as a
man.
I get almost no, in my life, I,I get almost no positive
feedback, right?
(40:46):
I get a lot of negativefeedback, but I, you know, like
when, when I get positivefeedback, like I'll write it in,
like, I'll make a note of it.
Like it just doesn't happen,right?
Like it's, you get, you know, inwork you get, well, and I'm
probably a little differentcause I've never had a boss.
I've always worked for myself.
So I've never had, you're notpatting yourself on the back,
(41:08):
are you?
Yeah.
There's no way to pat me on theback and say, Hey, job today.
But, but as men, we get verylittle positive feedback.
So I, I mean, I think a littlebit you know, give your
husband's room to make mistakes.
And then when they.
Do what?
What works for you then?
Then let'em know.
Mm-Hmm.
Yeah.
I love that.
(41:28):
Okay, so a little more praisenow.
Like we've talked about womenbeing a lot in their children's
lives, which I don't think isbad because I'm like, this is
how this is.
You know, moms have these littlekids.
Dads are off at work often.
Not all the time.
But certainly, you know, arethere things you feel like as
mothers, we can help our sons?
(41:49):
kind of develop into, you know,just kind of embracing their,
their masculine energy, theirmasculinity in a way that is
good instead of maybe hinderingsome of that.
Yeah, I, I definitely do.
This is something I'm, I'mactually quite passionate about
you know, helping peopleunderstand, you know, men and
women.
I mean, more, my world is alittle bit more helping the men,
(42:11):
but you know, when, when kidsare little, I mean, they need
their mom, right?
Like they're solely independent,they're dependent on their, on
somebody around them.
They can't do anything forthemselves, right?
As they get older they need Youknow, they need more
(42:31):
responsibility.
Right.
So and some of that is, isreally easy.
Right.
You know, if you want toencourage your, your son to be
more masculine, Hey, help mewith the groceries.
They're heavy.
Right.
And then all of a sudden he,like, he's proud of that.
Hey, you know what?
Like I stepped up, I helped mom.
Like my oldest boy, like he wasa huge kid.
I don't know where to get mywife.
(42:53):
Well, you're You live just downthe street from my sister in
law.
So, you know, how small theirfamily is.
Yes My wife's tiny and i'm not ahuge guy either But my oldest
son like he's a monster like andso even as a kid And so my wife
would get him all the time.
Hey, come help me lift this comehelp Even when he was like seven
or eight he was out and you knowthat for him was a really good.
(43:14):
Hey, like i'm You You know, I'mmanly.
I'm, I'm strong.
I'm, I'm, I'm actually of use tothe world.
Right.
Yeah.
The other thing is not like, ifyou criticize, like we talked
about before.
So like boys in school, right.
They don't learn like girls.
(43:34):
So if your son, if you're tryingto, so the story I always tell
is we were, I remember doingfamily home evening one time.
And this is when we only hadthree kids.
We had my daughter, my oldest isa girl, and then we had two
boys, and then we've got twogirls at the end, almost like,
almost like a second family.
They're quite, the girls at theend are quite a bit younger.
Yeah.
(43:55):
So we had, just had the oldestthree, and like, especially my
younger son, like, he wasjumping off the couches, and
he's running around, and I'mlike, Like, I remember thinking,
what, like, why am I doing this?
This is nonsense.
Like they're getting zero out ofthis.
What a waste of time.
And then at the end, my wifeasked a question and my son knew
every answer.
He, he got everything.
(44:16):
He knew everything that had beengoing on.
Right.
But he, like I say, I don'tthink he sat down the entire
time we talked about it.
And so, you know, realizingthat, you know, let your boys
Learn how they learn.
Don't don't think that they needto learn.
(44:38):
The way that everybody elselearned.
Right?
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
Yeah.
I think that is so, so good.
So I love those suggestions.
I know we also had talked aboutkind of protecting our, our
Maybe doing too much for ourboys.
I mean, I think we do do muchfor our girls.
My daughter, my daughter has atwo year old and when she
finally gave her a spoon to feedherself her own cereal, my
(45:00):
daughter was like, oh mygoodness, this is terrible.
I was like, listen, you're justuncomfortable with a mess.
But the more you help her, thelonger this is going to take her
to do.
So if you'll just let her feedherself, no matter the mess this
is going to make, right, thebetter off you're both going to
be in the long run, because youdon't want to be spoon feeding
this girl forever.
And oh, yeah, but it's so, somuch of what we try and control
(45:22):
with our kids is because we'reuncomfortable.
I don't want to watch them do itthis way.
Exactly.
And women, for whatever reason,their makeup is a little,
they're a little lesscomfortable with that than dads,
right?
Like moms generally, like dadshave a little easier time
letting their kids make mistakesand figure things out, right?
I don't know why that is, butmoms generally have more of a
(45:45):
tendency to be like, no, I'mjust going to take over and get
through it.
Right.
Yeah.
So the other thing, and it goesreally in close with this, is
this idea of repression, right?
So.
We so like I call it the thegateway fallacy Like you've all
(46:06):
heard of gateway drugs.
Yeah, like yeah, you know, soeverybody the idea And it's a
terrible like it and actuallyit's a it's a really logical
Concept it just happens to becompletely true right the idea
that if you take Caffeine orcannabis that, you know, that's
the gateway to being on heroinor crack, right?
And in entire countries, most ofthe Western world has built
(46:29):
their entire drug policy aroundthis this gateway fallacy and it
just proves not to be true,right?
And so we tend to, and forwhatever reason, it's a little
more, the idea is stuck aroundlonger through religious groups
than it has through the rest ofthe society.
But so when you talk about your,your sons repressing their
(46:52):
aggression or their anger orwhatever is actually going to
be, is going to cause it to comeout in more unhealthy ways.
Oh, okay.
Right?
So, if you give your kidshealthy outlets, and, and
whether this is boys or girls,right?
Like, if your, if your kid iscompetitive, if your kid's
aggressive, if your kid's youknow, whatever and you try and
(47:17):
repress that they're going tolike, it's going to find
unhealthy ways to man itself.
Manifest itself, right?
Like, that's the whole ideabehind the movie fight club,
right?
Is he was so repressed over somany years that.
He goes into a disassociatedstate and then ruins his whole
life, right?
Right.
(47:37):
That's, that's an extremeexample, right?
But I think that's one of thethings that we, as parents,
that's one of our biggest jobsis helping our children find
healthy ways to excel healthyoutlets for their skills or
their, right.
Whether that's sports, whetherthat's, you know,
(48:00):
outdoorsmanship, whether that'syou know, some kids are really
into art and math, right?
Like, like the best artists inthe world are like a little bit
of their art is quitedisturbing, right?
The best musicians in the world,like you listen to the lyric,
like I, I really got into this.
sO there's a theory that musichas gotten more unhealthy.
(48:22):
So, so the, the, your favoritesongs will tell you what your
attachment style is.
And so if you listen to thesongs, they, and listen to the
lyrics.
And so I went back and listenedto songs that I you know, liked
throughout my entire life andstarted listening to the
message.
And I was like, wow, yeah,that's, I have an unhealthy
attachment style.
(48:45):
And the, and songs was anunhealthy attachment style of
actually increased over thelast.
X number of years, right?
And we were having more and moretroubles, right?
And so these, this idea that we,we need to give people outlets
for those, they don't come outin unhealthy ways and helping
(49:05):
our kids, I think is probablyone of our most important jobs
as parents, right?
Helping them develop theirskills.
Right.
Yeah.
So really it sounds like.
If we want them to be dangerous,but under control, we have to
like be teaching that as, asthey're little of how to like.
Like, how can you express thiswithout hitting your sister over
(49:28):
the head or whatever, right?
Like, how, how can we kind ofchannel this in a way?
Because obviously there is meantto be self control.
There is meant to be lessonslearned.
But yeah, I kind of, I like whatyou're saying of just, you know,
really, If we want them to growup to have, to be healthy men
with healthy masculinity, it'ssomething that we need to start
(49:51):
in our homes, kind of helpingthem develop this like control,
but not repressed.
Yes.
Right.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Yeah.
So good.
So good.
I cannot thank you enough forcoming on today and sharing.
All of this just because I justthink it's good for most of my
listeners are women, not all ofthem, but just to be able to
(50:11):
hear a little bit of a man'sperspective, even just you
saying like, I just get suchlittle praise was so impactful
for me to hear I was like, Oh,Yeah.
Like, because I have talkedrecently on my podcast about
cherishing and the idea ofreally cherishing your spouse
and what that feels like to becherished.
(50:32):
And when you were talking, I waslike, yeah, there just needs to
be more like praise and love andjust, you know, love.
outward vocalizing of, of howgood your husband is to him and
the impact of that.
So is there one, any one lastthing you want to share before
we kind of end here?
(50:54):
yeah, I mean, the biggest thingI would say is, you know, like
you say, most of your listenersare women, right?
And so Just that idea ofencouragement to men, right?
Like, like just what you weresharing before, that that was
impactful, that encouraging yourhusbands, your sons rather than
(51:15):
discouraging them, you know Ithink is probably the, the
biggest difference that womencan make in the life of men,
right?
There's such a culture.
aRound this toxic masculinitythat we need to tell men all the
things they're doing wrong, butwe very rarely tell them what
(51:35):
they're doing well, or what weappreciate about them.
Yeah, so so good.
I thank you so much for comingon today.
If people want to reach out toyou or they want to listen to
your podcast, what are the bestways for people to really hear
more of what you have to say?
Is the podcast the best way?
Do you have other means?
Yeah, so my podcast is Abraham'sSon's 52.
(51:56):
Yeah, it's on most of the majorplatforms.
I haven't figured out how to getit up on Apple Music yet, but
all all the other majorplatforms it's on.
Okay.
And I'm on Twitter.
Okay.
I'm on Facebook through, samething.
Abraham's Son's 52.
Okay.
So you can reach out throughthose platforms or, you know,
(52:17):
you can email me at john atripleyconstruction, full word,
dot ca.
Okay.
I will link all of that in theshow notes so that everyone can
find that if they want to.
John, thank you so, so much forcoming on.
I so appreciate thisconversation and hopefully we'll
(52:37):
talk again.
Yeah, no, that's exciting.
Thank you very much for havingme.
Thanks.
Thanks for listening today.
If you like what you hear on thepodcast, and you'd like to learn
more, feel free to head over tomy website.
Jamilin Stephan coaching.com orfind me on Instagram or Facebook
at Jamileh.
step in coaching.
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