In this episode, Joanne Merrick shares how she’s reshaping leadership development by combining neuroscience with practical management strategies. Joanne, founder of The Leadership Recipe and author of Game On: Is Management Your Best Career Play?, explains why soft skills are actually hard skills — and how to develop them intentionally. Her global experience with companies like Deloitte and Amazon gives her a unique perspective on what makes a great leader. If you want to strengthen your leadership, communication, and team performance, this episode is packed with actionable insights.
💡 What You'll Take Away For YOUR Business
✅ Why soft skills are actually the hardest — and how to master them
✅ How to build a leadership “toolkit” for better communication and decision-making
✅ Why creating autonomy for your team improves performance and morale
✅ How to practice leadership intentionally — and why feedback is essential
✅ The 4 core elements of successful leadership (and how to strengthen them)
✅ How to empower your team without micromanaging (and why it matters for growth)
✅ Why mindset and resilience are the foundation for sustainable leadership
📝 About Joanne Merrick
Joanne Merrick offers over 25 years of global experience in helping individuals and organizations thrive. She has delivered transformative leadership programs across 5 continents and 22 countries, combining her expertise in neuroscience with a passion for building management and leadership capabilities.
As founder of The Leadership Recipe, LLC, Joanne designs impactful programs that enhance communication, emotional intelligence, and team performance. Her global perspective - shaped by living in Australia, Hong Kong, and now the USA - draws on her leadership roles at major organizations like Deloitte, Amazon, and Juniper Networks. This diverse background fuels her fresh, practical approach to leadership development.
In her debut book, Game On! Is Management Your Best Career Play?, Joanne empowers readers to make informed decisions about stepping into management.
🎯 Joanne’s BEST Piece of Advice for Wantrepreneurs and Entrepreneurs
"Find a way to love what you do and do what you love."
Joanne’s advice is simple but powerful: Focus on work that lights you up. Even if you can't love every part of your business, find joy in aspects of it and integrate your passions into your daily work.
📢 Memorable Quotes
"Soft skills are actually hard skills — they require practice, feedback, and patience." – Joanne Merrick
"Empowerment is about giving people the freedom to make decisions — that’s when they thrive." – Joanne Merrick
"Find a way to love what you do — and make your work reflect who you are." – Joanne Merrick
💡 Actionable Takeaways
✅ Build a leadership “toolkit” with communication, strategic thinking, and decision-making skills
✅ Create autonomy for your team — give them space to own their work
✅ Practice leadership intentionally — get feedback and improve consistently
✅ Focus on strengths first, but don’t ignore essential skills required for growth
✅ Encourage guided discovery — let your team find their own solutions through structure
🔗 Links & Resources
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:00):
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianLoFermento, and it's not often
that I introduce guests by justconfessing publicly.
I love this guest's companyname.
I love the way that shearticulates and messages the
stuff that she does.
I love the impact that she's socommitted to for her clients,
(00:21):
and that means that she's anamazing entrepreneur in person
that I'm so excited to talk to.
So let me introduce you totoday's guest.
Her name is Joanne Merrick.
Joanne offers over 25 years ofglobal experience in helping
individuals and organizationsthrive.
She has deliveredtransformative leadership
programs across five continentsin 22 countries, combining her
(00:43):
expertise in neuroscience with apassion for building management
and leadership capabilities.
As the founder of, here's meintroducing her incredible
business name to you.
As the founder of theLeadership Recipe, joanne
designs impactful programs thatenhance communication, emotional
intelligence and teamperformance.
Her global perspective, shapedby living in Australia, hong
(01:04):
Kong and now the USA, draws onher leadership roles at major
organizations like Deloitte,amazon and Juniper Networks.
This diverse background fuelsher fresh, practical approach to
leadership development.
Now not only is she a fellowentrepreneur, but she's also an
author, because her debut book,game On, is management your best
career play.
(01:25):
Joanne empowers readers to makeinformed decisions about
stepping into management andwhen it comes to the work that
she does with a leadershiprecipe, I love her mission
because she loves unleashing theextraordinary within you.
So for all of us asentrepreneurs, this is a topic
that we may want to ignore, butwe certainly can't ignore, and
we're all going to getchallenged and invited to grow
(01:46):
by Joanne today, so I'm notgoing to say anything else.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Joanne Merrick.
All right, joanne, I am so veryexcited that you're here with
us today.
First things first.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thank you so much.
I'm just jarring you to thatmusic, Brian Trustanne listeners
don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I have a little view of our guests at all times.
I can always see their cameraand I saw you bump into our
intro tunes.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm jiving, I'm jiving.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I love that you're in the mood, let's kick this off
by you taking us beyond the bio.
Joanne, how'd you start doingall these cool things?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh wow, I think it comes from an inner passion.
Honestly, that was reallystarted about 20 something years
ago when I did my psychologydegree and you know, then I was
working at Deloitte at the timeand just having a great time
working and chatting andtraining and just being with a
group of great people, andthat's what I thrive to do and
that's what I thrive to createin organizations as well.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes, I love that.
I would imagine the psychologybackground gives you such an
interesting perspective, becauseit's a soft skill.
Obviously, I'm not even sureI'm crazy about that term, soft
skills but when we talk aboutleadership it almost feels like
this ethereal thing.
It's like what is it reallythat we're talking about?
How do you begin to make senseof the scope of the work that
you do?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Oh, so true.
You know, like soft skills,there's no such thing as soft
skills.
They're hard skills.
They're hard skills to learnand to grow and develop.
You know, they almost take alifetime or a career to really
put in place.
But those soft skills, as wecall them, are very much a part
of every manager or leader'sworld.
(03:28):
They're skills that they relyon every single day.
I talk about, you know, leadersand managers needing to create a
toolkit of skills, so to speak,that they can call upon at any
given time under any givencircumstance, usually with not a
lot of preparation time.
So they need to have, you know,a really well-defined toolkit
(03:49):
of skills to put into practiceat any given time as needed.
But it's not easy, and you know, I truly believe that.
You know, the role of a manageris underestimated in terms of
its impact, not only on themanager themselves, but
obviously on the people thatreport to them and the companies
(04:10):
that they work for.
I don't think that we'retalking enough about management,
management skills or how to bea great manager in general, and
I want to bring this to theforefront because, you know,
even the title manager isoutdated.
I mean, it dates back toprobably what the industrial
revolution.
(04:30):
And funnily enough, brian, I washaving a conversation with an
executive and a tech companyquite a few years ago now about
that exact topic.
The title manager was just notreflective of what we were
teaching our employees at thetime, so he decided to play
along with me.
He said, okay, joanne, whatwould you change it to, you know
, if you could?
(04:50):
And I thought, oh, this is fun,okay, communicator.
And then I thought, no, empower, that's what managers do.
They empower people.
And can you imagine anorganization full of empowerers
or senior empowerers, brian?
Like how cool would that be asa title?
I think it would be a much moreinteresting and also much, much
(05:11):
better reflection of what theactual role itself entails.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, I love that, joanne.
Surround me with all theempowerers.
I want all of them, becausethat's the truth and I think
it's really cool because,obviously, as entrepreneurs, we
are, in certain ways, our ownempowers, but we have to be
empowers in literally all of theways, whether we have employees
or not.
We have to be empowers with ourclients, we have to be empowers
(05:35):
with our vendors to empowerthem to do a great job on behalf
of our businesses and on behalfof ourselves, and so
empowerment is obviously at theroot of all of this.
Joanne, there's so manymechanisms and skills through
which we can do that.
Introduce us to some of those,because I'm going to get really
picky about these skills thatyou speak of, because skill
suggests that we can improvethem and we can learn them.
(05:56):
But walk us through what thoseways that we can empower others
are first.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Absolutely Well.
I see there as being kind offour major elements I talk about
in the book of being a greatmanager.
The first one is taking on astrategic perspective, because I
think when you move from anindividual contributor role,
everything is pretty much aboutyou, the work you do, the
results you get, how you perform, to being a manager.
It's not about you anymore,it's actually all about
(06:24):
everybody else.
It is to some degree about thework that you do, because if
you're a manager, you're notonly managing people.
You've obviously got your owninitiatives, projects, et cetera
that you'll be working on.
So taking on a strategic,broader perspective is something
that's really important.
The other one is communicationskills.
(06:45):
You know, communication is justone of those human skills I
guess that is just so unique towho we are and what we do.
Another one is team performance.
You know, obviously you need to, or team leadership, you need
to lead your team.
You need to lead them throughchallenging, difficult times.
(07:07):
You need to celebrate with them.
You need to manage theirperformance.
You need to set goals, you needto unleash.
You know their potential.
And the final one is aroundjudgment.
You know how to prioritize thework that you and everyone else
is doing, how to make decisions,and you know how to problem
(07:27):
solve.
You know are typically all ofthat, but in each of those four
segments there's a lot of skillsthat make up each of those.
So there's a lot more detail togo into here and I think a lot
of people underestimate thenumber of skills that managers
need to learn and engage in.
(07:49):
But they are indeed learnable.
You know, there's a lot ofmisconceptions out there about
management, and I also talkabout that in the book too, but
one of them is that managementis an innate skill and something
that not necessarily can't belearned.
That is, you couldn't get anyfurther from the truth there.
And again funny story I wasactually running a management
(08:11):
and leadership training program.
When was it?
I won't mention the company,but it was one of the large
organizations that I worked withand we're in the middle of this
training program and one of theparticipants stood up.
She had a very strong opinionabout the fact that management
could not be learned, that itwas an innate skill.
(08:33):
And, brian, I found that to becompletely ironic given that we
were in the middle of amanagement training program.
But we had quite an engagingconversation about it.
And you know, obviously yourespect everybody's opinion, but
my opinion is that these skillscan definitely be learned and
they need to be practiced andpracticed for a career.
You know the old adage practicemakes perfect.
(08:55):
You know amateurs practice toget things right, but
professionals, they stillpractice, and that's to keep
from getting things wrong.
So that's the trick with all ofthese skills is to be
introduced to them, to practicethem through lifelong learning
and bring out that, and doing sowill bring out the best in you
as a manager and a leader andobviously it will bring out the
best in the people that workwith you.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, I love the way you articulate that, joanne,
especially when you talk aboutpractice.
I'll tell you where my headgoes is.
Soccer is such a big part of mychildhood and growing up.
Soccer is such a big part of mychildhood and growing up.
I always played on verycompetitive teams, and everybody
who's ever played a sport hasheard that phrase of you
practice how you play.
And so, with that in mind, whenhearing you talk about practice
with regards to leadership, Ithink about how our coaches
(09:39):
always tried to and had variousdegrees of success to get us to
imagine that what we're doinghere on the practice field isn't
just for practice.
We have to put ourselves in theshoes of a real life scenario.
We have to pretend and getourselves to believe that it's a
match day scenario, and so,with that in mind, it's not
practice to just go through themotions, it's not a worksheet
(10:02):
that we can fill out in aseminar.
Joanne, I want you to reallyshare with listeners how we can
actually practice in a way thatdelivers results, a way that is
useful rather than merely justmotion.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
I think, to be honest, to setcontext up front, it takes
humility.
It takes a little bit ofhumility to understand that I am
learning a new skill and maybe,as I am learning that new skill
, I'm not going to be perfect atit immediately and I need to be
open to feedback, to hear fromother people what I'm doing well
(10:40):
and what I can be doingdifferently in order to get even
better at that skill.
So with that comes famous CarolDweck's work of a growth
mindset.
That means having a growthmindset yourself about yourself
and understanding that you'redoing your best and you're open
to learning and changing anddoing things even better, moving
(11:00):
forward based on other people'sperceptions of how you're going
.
So that's the way I would startto think about it and then I
would pick a couple of skills.
In my book I actually have adiagnostic.
It's not a science-baseddiagnostic, but it is a
diagnostic tool that folks canuse to kind of understand, first
of all, what skills they enjoyengaging in and, second of all,
(11:23):
based on those skills, whattheir current level of
capability is, whether it's, youknow, beginner, intermediate,
advanced, whatever.
So I encourage them to kind ofstart thinking about what might
be two or three skills that Ican work on over the next couple
of weeks.
That will take me from abeginner level to an advanced
level or an advanced level to oran intermediate level beginner
(11:47):
to intermediate and thenobviously, intermediate to
advanced level.
On that, on that skill and thenpick two or three things that
you can do in order to grow anddevelop in that skill.
So a quick AI tool you knowsearch can give you some really
good tips on how to do that,particularly if you put into the
(12:09):
AI tool a little bit of contextabout your current role and how
you might grow and develop inthat current role.
Obviously, you can work with acoach or a mentor.
Your manager might be a greatperson to work with there, a
trusted peer, you know, someonewho you engage with and is ready
to give you open, honestfeedback, knowing that that
(12:34):
feedback is something that'sgoing to help you grow, develop
and improve over time.
So you know an example of thatlike, if you want to build your
communication skills, you mightmention that to your manager and
then put your hand up to lead ateam meeting moving forward, so
that your manager's not doingit, or you know, whatever you
(12:56):
might do that with your managerand with your team, and in doing
so, you might get clear on whatare the objectives of this
meeting.
What would success look like orfeel like as it results to this
meeting?
What are a couple of thingsthat I want to make sure that
myself and my team get out ofthis meeting?
And then what am I going to doto follow up afterwards?
(13:17):
So that's just like a basicstructure for running a team
meeting, but it's something thatanybody at an individual
contributor level so someone whois maybe thinking about
becoming a manager in the futurecan start working on now.
You know, volunteering forthose extracurricular, so to
speak, activities that will givethem an opportunity to practice
(13:38):
under a safe environment.
I also encourage folks toidentify some of these skills
and even practice them in theirhome life.
So are you running a familymeeting?
Are you planning a family event?
Who are you engaging with in afamily context to bring about
(13:59):
whatever it is that you'reworking on?
I think the key here is to justpick a couple of skills.
You don't want to do all ofthem at once, but just pick a
couple of skills that are goingto work for you, moving forward,
finding opportunities topractice them, getting feedback
from folks around you on how youcan do even better, and then
continue to grow and developthat way.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, joanne, when I hear you use that verb of pick
pick two of those skills thatyou want to get better at what I
really hear is that level ofintentionality.
Is that all too often in lifeand professional careers, in
relationships, we think thatthings will naturally evolve
over time because that's the waythat the universe works.
But it's that level ofintentionality that brings about
tangible changes.
And so, with that in mind, Ialways kind of hear, when we
(14:41):
talk about leadership, I hear alittle bit of conflicting advice
about pick those things thatare your weaknesses and make
those better, versus double downon your strengths.
So, joanne, when it comes to uspicking what it is that we
should be working on, where doyou fall in that debate of
picking on those weaknessesversus making our strengths even
more amplified?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
You know it's picking what's going to get you to
where you want to get you.
I'm a huge advocate of doingwhat you love and loving what
you do, and I find that we havea lot more.
We love doing a lot more ofwhat's related around our
strengths than maybe what ourweaknesses or areas of
improvement are.
But there are some roles thatrequire certain skills that
(15:28):
maybe we're not too fond of andmaybe it means for our future
success that we need to gain alevel of familiarity with them,
even if we don't love them.
So I am an advocate for playingto your strengths.
I think that that makes a lotmore sense.
(15:49):
But I think we need to be realabout the future roles that we
want to work on, that we're notmaybe going to love every single
aspect of them.
If we can make a majority ofour time doing things that we
love, obviously that would beideal, but I think we also need
(16:11):
to be practical about, you know,our day-to-day finding ways to
do whatever we can do in orderto be successful, and hopefully
that is playing around our, ourstrengths.
But sometimes, yeah, thosethose you know there's we've
always, we've all got somethingto learn.
You know, we've all gotsomething to to work on and,
(16:33):
surprisingly to brian.
Sometimes I truly believe wedon't know where our true
strengths might be until we'reopen to discovering ourselves a
little bit, a a little bit more.
You know I'm going to age myselfhere, but imagine if Elton John
never started to twinkle on theivories of the piano.
(16:55):
You know what if John Lennonand I heard his wonderful song
Imagine the other day I guessthat's why he comes to mind what
if he never picked up a guitar?
You know, his brilliance wouldnever, their brilliance would
never have maybe had theopportunity to shine.
And maybe when they firststarted playing the piano or,
you know, playing the guitar,they didn't really like it that
(17:16):
much, but they wanted to.
They wanted to to obviouslymake something of themselves and
found an avenue to to do that.
Maybe they had great days wherethey thought, oh yeah, this is
really cool.
And maybe they had days wherethey thought, oh, I just want to
give up.
But I think their resilienceand perseverance is also key
(17:38):
when you've identified what isit that I want to do, what is
the impact that I want to haveon this world and how am I going
to do.
What is the impact that I wantto have on this world and how am
I going to get there?
And I think it's a bit of giveand take on both sides.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, and hearing you talk about that within the
context of Elton John or anyonewho's quote unquote made it in
any industry.
You brought up resilience, youwent straight there and that's
something that when people askme, what are the ingredients to
piggyback on your recipe, whatare the ingredients to
entrepreneurial success?
Resilience has to be in thatmix.
And then where I start going isI broaden it and I say, well,
(18:15):
so much of it just comes down tomindset.
And, joanne, I love the factthat neuroscience plays into the
lens in which you do your workand the lens in which you help
people, because, for me, Imajored in economics and I
really love behavioral economicsbecause a lot of it focuses on
psychology and the way that themind works and especially biases
, recency bias, selection bias,all those different things.
(18:36):
Talk to me about how that lensreally shapes and is kind of
your secret power when it comesto helping people understand
these things.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Interesting.
You know I was introduced toneuroscience and the concept of
neuroscience and leadership notlong after I moved to the United
States back in 2011 from HongKong.
I'd lived there for three and ahalf years before living in
Australia and this concept ofneuroscience I had been
introduced to great works of youknow the likes of Stephen Covey
(19:08):
from a leadership.
You know Ken Blanchard, otherpeople and it was always what
those people, what those famouspeople, great minds, what they
brought to the table from amanagement and leadership
perspective, was always reallyinteresting great books, etc.
Neuroscience came to the foreand all of a sudden, a lot of
what they were talking about orhad been talking about for the
(19:28):
last 10, 20 years and beyond wasnow provable in science by
looking at the human brain andseeing the impact that doing
certain activities or thinkingcertain ways was actually having
on the physiological structureof the brain.
So wow, like bam, fascinatingstuff from a leadership
(19:50):
development perspective.
So that's what pushed me intodoing my post-grad through the
Middlesex University in the UKon the topic and I loved every
single second of it.
One thing I learned which onething?
A couple of things I got out ofthat.
The main one was, as you callit, a lens.
Once you've learned anything,you can't not look at
(20:13):
situational circumstance throughthe lens of your education,
right?
So that was important.
And then I started to, you know, really apply, uh, in the
corporate sense, a lot of whatthe science was teaching us and
that was starting to get reallyinteresting when we got the
(20:35):
opportunity to do to do that.
And I can give you an exampleone of the significant areas
that um are in on on impacts onthe brain is this sense of
having autonomy.
You, so we've all heard ofmanagers that micromanage us,
(20:58):
and micromanagement is one ofthe worst things that managers
can do, because what they do inmicromanaging their team is they
take away a person's sense ofchoice and control a person's
sense of choice and control.
So, and I'd seen a lot ofmicromanagers in my time, a lot
of managers who really wanted tocontrol situations,
(21:24):
circumstances, people, and notonly were they getting
frustrated with their team, buttheir team was obviously getting
frustrated with them.
So something was not workingaround this whole concept of
micromanagement.
And I remember being in alecture it was like, because I
was traveling so much at thetime, I think my lecture in UK
time was like 3 am or 3 am inthe morning in Japan, so it was
(21:46):
like some crazy time and we weretalking in this lecture about
autonomy and the importance forhaving a sense of autonomy on
the human brain.
And one of the gentlemen that Iwas studying with was living in
the UK and he told a story aboutgetting home from work and he
(22:10):
had a four or five-year-old sonand as he entered his home his
son was playing on the staircaseas there's often a lot of
staircases like right in thefront door of those homes in the
UK, from my experience.
So he greeted his son and thenwent to the kitchen and helped
his wife prepare dinner.
So it's dinner time and hecalls out to his son, who's
still playing on the stairs cometo the dinner table for dinner.
(22:32):
The son was having so much funplaying on the staircase that he
said no, dad, I'm not going tocome to the dinner table tonight
to eat dinner.
You bring my dinner to me hereon the stairs.
Well, this was not acceptable tothis gentleman because it was
their family tradition to eatdinner at the dinner table.
So he'd been studying this workor doing this work on the
(22:55):
importance of autonomy, choiceand control and rather than just
tell his son to get to thatdinner table and eat his dinner.
He took a moment, took a stepback and he said okay, you need
to eat your dinner at the dinnertable, right?
So he set clear expectations,which is really important as
well.
He said but I'll tell you whatyou don't have to sit at your
(23:17):
normal seat when you eat yourdinner.
You can sit at any seat at thetable.
That's your choice.
The kid was interested.
Why?
Because his dad wasautomatically giving him a
little bit of choice, a littlebit of control over his
circumstance.
But the dad didn't stop there.
He doubled down and he said andI'll tell you what you don't
(23:41):
have to only choose where yousit.
You can also choose where daddysits and where mummy sits at
the table.
That kid was at that dinnertable so quickly.
Why?
Because he had a sense ofcontrol over his situation.
He had choices to make and fromthose choices the control and
(24:02):
the sense of autonomy cameshining through.
So how do I refer that from amanagement and leadership
development perspective?
As a manager, sometimes itdoesn't matter how things get
done, it just matters that theyget done.
And if managers can be a littlebit more creative sometimes and
(24:23):
, rather than tell their directreports what to do, ask their
direct reports what might be thebest way that we can get this
done.
First hear from their directreports, and then maybe their
direct reports have actually gota better idea than what the
manager might have had in thefirst place, or the manager can
then share their perspective andthey can have a conversation
(24:43):
around the best way of gettingthings done.
So neuroscience changed my life, gave me a completely new lens
through which I could engagemanagers and leaders also from a
training perspective as well,and how I can maybe encourage
them to think a little bitdifferently about how they
engage with and manage theirteam.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, joanne, I love that real life story that you
gave us, the example of the dadgetting the son to come to the
table and giving that controland power.
What I hear and what reallyresonates from my own personal
experience is even just creatingthat environment for someone
else to step into.
Joanne, I'll share this withyou.
Is that all the way back?
It was probably my early 20s, Iwas taking my soccer coaching
(25:28):
licenses and I remember theinstructor.
I played my whole life and so Ithought you know, because I'm a
good player by default, I'mgoing to be a good coach.
Of course, it's absolutely nottrue.
And so the instructor that daychallenged me with coming up
with a practice plan thatteaches kids how to dribble a
soccer ball.
And so I, of course, went alittle analytical and I said
(25:49):
well, you use the inside of yourfoot and you push it and
sometimes use the outside ofyour foot.
And the instructor stopped meand he said look, you'll never
be able to explain to somebodyhow to do it.
Create an environment thatforces them to dribble.
And I said well, how do Icreate an environment that
forces them to dribble?
They're just going to kick theball as far as they can.
They're kids.
That's what kids do with a ball.
And he said how about we have apractice drill where you can
(26:11):
only pass backwards?
And I thought to myself you canonly pass backwards.
Well, what's going to happenthere?
And he said the kids themselveswill realize that the only way
forward is to dribble because wecan only pass backwards.
And he called that style guideddiscovery.
He said you don't need to teachthem how to dribble, you need
to guide them to the point wherethey discover that.
(26:33):
Joanne, this is a little soccerexample and I'm excited for you
to connect the dots.
Yeah, for both me and forlisteners.
How do we implement that in ourbusinesses?
How do we implement that asleaders?
Because, to your point about,we don't care how it gets done,
we care that it does get donesuccessfully.
What's the business and themanagement equivalent of that
soccer coaching example?
(26:53):
What's the business?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
and the management equivalent of that soccer
coaching example.
Yeah, I think that's a greatexample, I don't know.
I think a lot happens in teammeetings, you know.
To take the team analogy onestep further, there I think
managers need to create thespace, like what your coach did,
create the space for brilliance, create the space for
(27:15):
conversation, create the spacefor collaboration, and in doing
so, I think I find that managersare really surprised by what
their team can come up with.
The challenge there.
You know, if managers don't dothat, they end up having a
number of direct reports whojust rely on their manager to
give them the answers or solvetheir problems or tell them what
(27:37):
to do.
And you know I'm not sure aboutanyone else, brian, but I know
that I definitely want to beable to take a vacation in the
future, and managers that don'tencourage, enable, empower their
teams will never really get tohave a vacation, because they'll
always need to be at theirteam's beck and call, so to
speak, to actually get anythingdone.
(27:58):
So there's something in thisfor managers to do as well, but
it doesn't happen by accident,and I find that you know even
the most structured managers whohave a to-do list or have an
agenda for every meeting thatthey're working on.
(28:20):
Maybe make an agenda point tohave fun for 20 minutes, you
know, and maybe put to theirteam what could we do to have
fun together?
Or, you know, I get to know youactivity for 10 minutes out of
a 50-minute team meeting it onthe agenda, because sometimes if
you don't make the time forsomething then it just won't
(28:41):
happen.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, I love that, joanne, it's so true.
You make me think of one of ourinternal meetings the other day
where we ended up talking aboutthe moon landing and how that
impacted our families, and oneof our team members, laura,
talked about her grandmother'smemories from that.
My mom's family had moved tothe United States in 1969.
And it plays into.
What did it have to do withbusiness?
And how did AI make sense ofthat meeting transcript?
(29:02):
It didn't, but it reallyfurthered the way that we
created that environment wherewe can all share things, where
we can basically say our ownthoughts, our own perspectives,
regardless of how it plays intothe way that others have to
think.
So when we talk about culture,joanne, I feel like everyone
tries to put labels on it, butthe actual practices that you're
talking about today, this iswhat yields a culture, and I'm
(29:24):
so appreciative of the way thatyou go about your work.
I told you before we hit recordthat time would fly by, but I
want to squeeze two morequestions in with you, and so
the first question.
It's something that I hadhighlighted about your messaging
, because I love your businessbrand, I love the name of your
company, but what I really loveis your mission and, quite
simply, I love that sentencethat says at the leadership
recipe, we're about unleashingthe extraordinary within you.
(29:47):
Joanne, when I imagine the workthe deep and meaningful work
that you do with your clients, Iwould imagine that in order to
do that, step one is to get themto see and believe the
extraordinary within them.
What does that look like?
How do you bring that out ofthe people that you work with?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I think it's a great question.
To me it starts with askinglots and lots of questions
because you know the leadershiprecipe.
The thinking behind that wasthere are literally millions of
recipes out there and I can givesome basics of some of the
things that I believe might gointo making a great manager or a
great leader.
But everybody is unique.
(30:26):
Everybody has personal aspects,personal styles that they bring
to the table, styles that theybring to the table.
So I find you actually learn alot more about yourself when you
are asked questions and beinggiven an opportunity to kind of
really think through the answersto those questions.
(30:49):
So it starts with me asking alot of questions of my clients,
not only so I get an opportunityto understand them and their
uniqueness, maybe theirstrengths, but more their
uniqueness of what they bring tothe table.
And what I find reallyfascinating is just in them
(31:09):
answering those questions youliterally see little light bulbs
going off.
You see little, you know.
You see smiles on people'sfaces when they really start to
understand, believe, think alittle bit differently, see
themselves in a new light, getmore confidence and clarity in
(31:31):
their thinking as well.
It's truly delightful to seeand that's why I talk about.
You know, are you hungry,looking for a unique leadership
recipe that I believe we alluniquely bring to the table?
And it starts with asking lotsof questions and giving an
(31:52):
opportunity for people to kindof really think through their
answers, and then me reflectingback to them what I think I
heard.
And then, you know, I think I'ma great listener, but you know,
there's even when I speak andsomeone reflects back to me what
I have said, sometimes they'vereflected back perfectly and it
(32:13):
is what I said, but it's notwhat I meant.
And so that means that I'mencouraged to think about myself
much more deeply andreflectively, by maybe asking
myself and answering questionsthat I'd never really thought I
would.
And doing so just kind of peelsback the layers of the
(32:37):
uniqueness that a person bringsto the table and creates an
inner level of understanding,appreciation and, dare I say it,
self-love I don't knowDefinitely self-awareness.
No doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yes, I love that, joanne.
I would argue, from the outside, looking in, just having looked
at your work as much as I have,that it's not just about those
questions.
But, jo, that, joanne, I wouldargue from the outside, looking
in, just having looked at yourwork as much as I have, that
it's not just about thosequestions.
But, joanne, you obviously havethat ability to create that
environment where thosequestions actually have the
space to leave that impact, andso I really appreciate the way
that you go about your work andspeaking of questions.
The only question that I ask,that's the same in every single
(33:14):
episode, is this final one, andthat is what's your best piece
of advice for listeners Knowingthat we're being listened to by
both entrepreneurs andentrepreneurs at all different
stages of their own growthjourneys, and also knowing that
you're not just the subjectmatter expert that you are, but
you're also one of us, you'realso a fellow entrepreneur.
So, with that hat on, what'sthe one piece of advice you want
to leave listeners with today?
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Find a way to love what you do and do what you love
, you know, even if it's notimmediately available to or even
if you're not truly immediatelyaware of it.
Find something in what you'redoing that you love and just
continue to do more and more ofthat, or as much of that as is
(34:00):
possible.
And I can give you a reallyquick example in another
lifetime I was actually a singer.
I was so much of a singer thatI had a manager.
I mean, I'm going back a longtime and that manager would
really be supportive in helpingme find gigs and and singing
opportunities.
And it was a long time and thatmanager would really be
supportive in helping me findgigs and singing opportunities.
And it was a great time in mylife.
(34:22):
Obviously, I wasn't meant to bean international singer.
I think I was truly mediocre atbest.
But I went on and did mypsychology degree and started
doing a lot of management andleadership training and I would
bring song into the classroom.
You know, if I got it up, ifsome lyrics to a song came to
mind, I would just burst intosong in the middle of the
(34:43):
classroom.
Well, that got people'sattention, you know, and it was
fun.
You know, sometimes we wouldeven be kind of clicking and,
you know, jiving along withwhatever was going on.
Quite an unusual circumstancein a corporate training program,
but I became known for that.
I had a bit of a reputation forthat.
So, as much as I wasn't meantto be a singer per se, I found a
(35:07):
way to bring singing intoanother love, and doing so
enabled me to continue to dowhat I love and love what I do,
but also create a level ofuniqueness with who I was and
how I wanted to stand out in myprofession.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yes, I love that advice for our listeners and,
joanne, I love the way that it'smanifested in your work and
what it is that you do.
That's the beauty of being anentrepreneur is that we get to
inject ourselves and ourpassions and our hobbies into
the way that we operate.
So huge kudos to you, joanne.
I also so appreciate all thegood stuff that you're putting
into the world, including yourbook.
Huge congrats to you for that.
(35:46):
I know how much work goes intothat.
So, joanne, you owe ourlisteners some links.
Where the heck can they go tolearn more?
about all your great work andfind that book of yours.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Fantastic.
I've got a sample of the bookhere with lots of flags in it
from my perspective, but it'scalled Game On Is Management
your Best Career Play, and it'sreally a guide for, or a
playbook for, next-gen leadersto help them make a decision to
become a manager rather thanmaybe fall into a management
role like so many people do.
(36:17):
They can always email me atjoanne at theleadershiprecipecom
.
I would love to hear from youand also, obviously, check out
my website, which istheleadershiprecipecom.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yes, and listeners, you already know the drill.
We're making it as easy aspossible for you to find those
links down below in the shownotes, no matter where it is
that you're tuning into today'sepisode.
Super simple to remember.
Joanne, I love the fact thatyou got that domain name
theleadershiprecipecom.
You'll find a link to her bookthere as well.
So do not be shy in reachingout.
Most people are.
This is such an easy way foryou to stand out with incredible
(36:50):
entrepreneurs and guests likeJoanne is be one of the few that
proactively reaches out andcontinues the conversation.
So, joanne, on behalf of myselfand all the listeners worldwide
, thanks so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
What fun.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet
another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat thewantrepreneurshowcom, and
I just want to give a shout outto our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
(37:27):
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
our guests step up to the plate.
These are not sponsored episodes.
These are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomeentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs,
that they contribute to help usmake these productions possible
(37:50):
.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always every Monday, wednesday,friday, saturday and Sunday
(38:13):
here on the Wantrepreneur toEntrepreneur podcast.
Hey, what is up?
Welcome to this episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
As always, I'm your host, brianLoFermento, and it's not often
that I introduce guests by justconfessing publicly.
I love this guest's companyname.
I love the way that shearticulates and messages the
stuff that she does.
I love the impact that she's socommitted to for her clients,
(00:21):
and that means that she's anamazing entrepreneur in person
that I'm so excited to talk to.
So let me introduce you totoday's guest.
Her name is Joanne Merrick.
Joanne offers over 25 years ofglobal experience in helping
individuals and organizationsthrive.
She has deliveredtransformative leadership
programs across five continentsin 22 countries, combining her
(00:43):
expertise in neuroscience with apassion for building management
and leadership capabilities.
As the founder of, here's meintroducing her incredible
business name to you.
As the founder of theLeadership Recipe, joanne
designs impactful programs thatenhance communication, emotional
intelligence and teamperformance.
Her global perspective, shapedby living in Australia, hong
(01:04):
Kong and now the USA, draws onher leadership roles at major
organizations like Deloitte,amazon and Juniper Networks.
This diverse background fuelsher fresh, practical approach to
leadership development.
Now not only is she a fellowentrepreneur, but she's also an
author, because her debut book,game On, is management your best
career play.
(01:25):
Joanne empowers readers to makeinformed decisions about
stepping into management andwhen it comes to the work that
she does with a leadershiprecipe, I love her mission
because she loves unleashing theextraordinary within you.
So for all of us asentrepreneurs, this is a topic
that we may want to ignore, butwe certainly can't ignore, and
we're all going to getchallenged and invited to grow
(01:46):
by Joanne today, so I'm notgoing to say anything else.
Let's dive straight into myinterview with Joanne Merrick.
All right, joanne, I am so veryexcited that you're here with
us today.
First things first.
Welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 (02:00):
Thank you so much.
I'm just jarring you to thatmusic, Brian Trustanne listeners
don't know.
Speaker 1 (02:06):
I have a little view of our guests at all times.
I can always see their cameraand I saw you bump into our
intro tunes.
Speaker 2 (02:12):
I'm jiving, I'm jiving.
Speaker 1 (02:13):
I love that you're in the mood, let's kick this off
by you taking us beyond the bio.
Joanne, how'd you start doingall these cool things?
Speaker 2 (02:26):
Oh wow, I think it comes from an inner passion.
Honestly, that was reallystarted about 20 something years
ago when I did my psychologydegree and you know, then I was
working at Deloitte at the timeand just having a great time
working and chatting andtraining and just being with a
group of great people, andthat's what I thrive to do and
that's what I thrive to createin organizations as well.
Speaker 1 (02:46):
Yes, I love that.
I would imagine the psychologybackground gives you such an
interesting perspective, becauseit's a soft skill.
Obviously, I'm not even sureI'm crazy about that term, soft
skills but when we talk aboutleadership it almost feels like
this ethereal thing.
It's like what is it reallythat we're talking about?
How do you begin to make senseof the scope of the work that
you do?
Speaker 2 (03:07):
Oh, so true.
You know, like soft skills,there's no such thing as soft
skills.
They're hard skills.
They're hard skills to learnand to grow and develop.
You know, they almost take alifetime or a career to really
put in place.
But those soft skills, as wecall them, are very much a part
of every manager or leader'sworld.
(03:28):
They're skills that they relyon every single day.
I talk about, you know, leadersand managers needing to create a
toolkit of skills, so to speak,that they can call upon at any
given time under any givencircumstance, usually with not a
lot of preparation time.
So they need to have, you know,a really well-defined toolkit
(03:49):
of skills to put into practiceat any given time as needed.
But it's not easy, and you know, I truly believe that.
You know, the role of a manageris underestimated in terms of
its impact, not only on themanager themselves, but
obviously on the people thatreport to them and the companies
(04:10):
that they work for.
I don't think that we'retalking enough about management,
management skills or how to bea great manager in general, and
I want to bring this to theforefront because, you know,
even the title manager isoutdated.
I mean, it dates back toprobably what the industrial
revolution.
(04:30):
And funnily enough, brian, I washaving a conversation with an
executive and a tech companyquite a few years ago now about
that exact topic.
The title manager was just notreflective of what we were
teaching our employees at thetime, so he decided to play
along with me.
He said, okay, joanne, whatwould you change it to, you know
, if you could?
(04:50):
And I thought, oh, this is fun,okay, communicator.
And then I thought, no, empower, that's what managers do.
They empower people.
And can you imagine anorganization full of empowerers
or senior empowerers, brian?
Like how cool would that be asa title?
I think it would be a much moreinteresting and also much, much
(05:11):
better reflection of what theactual role itself entails.
Speaker 1 (05:15):
Yeah, I love that, joanne.
Surround me with all theempowerers.
I want all of them, becausethat's the truth and I think
it's really cool because,obviously, as entrepreneurs, we
are, in certain ways, our ownempowers, but we have to be
empowers in literally all of theways, whether we have employees
or not.
We have to be empowers with ourclients, we have to be empowers
(05:35):
with our vendors to empowerthem to do a great job on behalf
of our businesses and on behalfof ourselves, and so
empowerment is obviously at theroot of all of this.
Joanne, there's so manymechanisms and skills through
which we can do that.
Introduce us to some of those,because I'm going to get really
picky about these skills thatyou speak of, because skill
suggests that we can improvethem and we can learn them.
(05:56):
But walk us through what thoseways that we can empower others
are first.
Speaker 2 (06:02):
Absolutely Well.
I see there as being kind offour major elements I talk about
in the book of being a greatmanager.
The first one is taking on astrategic perspective, because I
think when you move from anindividual contributor role,
everything is pretty much aboutyou, the work you do, the
results you get, how you perform, to being a manager.
It's not about you anymore,it's actually all about
(06:24):
everybody else.
It is to some degree about thework that you do, because if
you're a manager, you're notonly managing people.
You've obviously got your owninitiatives, projects, et cetera
that you'll be working on.
So taking on a strategic,broader perspective is something
that's really important.
The other one is communicationskills.
(06:45):
You know, communication is justone of those human skills I
guess that is just so unique towho we are and what we do.
Another one is team performance.
You know, obviously you need to, or team leadership, you need
to lead your team.
You need to lead them throughchallenging, difficult times.
(07:07):
You need to celebrate with them.
You need to manage theirperformance.
You need to set goals, you needto unleash.
You know their potential.
And the final one is aroundjudgment.
You know how to prioritize thework that you and everyone else
is doing, how to make decisions,and you know how to problem
(07:27):
solve.
You know are typically all ofthat, but in each of those four
segments there's a lot of skillsthat make up each of those.
So there's a lot more detail togo into here and I think a lot
of people underestimate thenumber of skills that managers
need to learn and engage in.
(07:49):
But they are indeed learnable.
You know, there's a lot ofmisconceptions out there about
management, and I also talkabout that in the book too, but
one of them is that managementis an innate skill and something
that not necessarily can't belearned.
That is, you couldn't get anyfurther from the truth there.
And again funny story I wasactually running a management
(08:11):
and leadership training program.
When was it?
I won't mention the company,but it was one of the large
organizations that I worked withand we're in the middle of this
training program and one of theparticipants stood up.
She had a very strong opinionabout the fact that management
could not be learned, that itwas an innate skill.
(08:33):
And, brian, I found that to becompletely ironic given that we
were in the middle of amanagement training program.
But we had quite an engagingconversation about it.
And you know, obviously yourespect everybody's opinion, but
my opinion is that these skillscan definitely be learned and
they need to be practiced andpracticed for a career.
You know the old adage practicemakes perfect.
(08:55):
You know amateurs practice toget things right, but
professionals, they stillpractice, and that's to keep
from getting things wrong.
So that's the trick with all ofthese skills is to be
introduced to them, to practicethem through lifelong learning
and bring out that, and doing sowill bring out the best in you
as a manager and a leader andobviously it will bring out the
best in the people that workwith you.
Speaker 1 (09:17):
Yeah, I love the way you articulate that, joanne,
especially when you talk aboutpractice.
I'll tell you where my headgoes is.
Soccer is such a big part of mychildhood and growing up.
Soccer is such a big part of mychildhood and growing up.
I always played on verycompetitive teams, and everybody
who's ever played a sport hasheard that phrase of you
practice how you play.
And so, with that in mind, whenhearing you talk about practice
with regards to leadership, Ithink about how our coaches
(09:39):
always tried to and had variousdegrees of success to get us to
imagine that what we're doinghere on the practice field isn't
just for practice.
We have to put ourselves in theshoes of a real life scenario.
We have to pretend and getourselves to believe that it's a
match day scenario, and so,with that in mind, it's not
practice to just go through themotions, it's not a worksheet
(10:02):
that we can fill out in aseminar.
Joanne, I want you to reallyshare with listeners how we can
actually practice in a way thatdelivers results, a way that is
useful rather than merely justmotion.
Speaker 2 (10:16):
Yeah, I think that's a great question.
I think, to be honest, to setcontext up front, it takes
humility.
It takes a little bit ofhumility to understand that I am
learning a new skill and maybe,as I am learning that new skill
, I'm not going to be perfect atit immediately and I need to be
open to feedback, to hear fromother people what I'm doing well
(10:40):
and what I can be doingdifferently in order to get even
better at that skill.
So with that comes famous CarolDweck's work of a growth
mindset.
That means having a growthmindset yourself about yourself
and understanding that you'redoing your best and you're open
to learning and changing anddoing things even better, moving
(11:00):
forward based on other people'sperceptions of how you're going
.
So that's the way I would startto think about it and then I
would pick a couple of skills.
In my book I actually have adiagnostic.
It's not a science-baseddiagnostic, but it is a
diagnostic tool that folks canuse to kind of understand, first
of all, what skills they enjoyengaging in and, second of all,
(11:23):
based on those skills, whattheir current level of
capability is, whether it's, youknow, beginner, intermediate,
advanced, whatever.
So I encourage them to kind ofstart thinking about what might
be two or three skills that Ican work on over the next couple
of weeks.
That will take me from abeginner level to an advanced
level or an advanced level to oran intermediate level beginner
(11:47):
to intermediate and thenobviously, intermediate to
advanced level.
On that, on that skill and thenpick two or three things that
you can do in order to grow anddevelop in that skill.
So a quick AI tool you knowsearch can give you some really
good tips on how to do that,particularly if you put into the
(12:09):
AI tool a little bit of contextabout your current role and how
you might grow and develop inthat current role.
Obviously, you can work with acoach or a mentor.
Your manager might be a greatperson to work with there, a
trusted peer, you know, someonewho you engage with and is ready
to give you open, honestfeedback, knowing that that
(12:34):
feedback is something that'sgoing to help you grow, develop
and improve over time.
So you know an example of thatlike, if you want to build your
communication skills, you mightmention that to your manager and
then put your hand up to lead ateam meeting moving forward, so
that your manager's not doingit, or you know, whatever you
(12:56):
might do that with your managerand with your team, and in doing
so, you might get clear on whatare the objectives of this
meeting.
What would success look like orfeel like as it results to this
meeting?
What are a couple of thingsthat I want to make sure that
myself and my team get out ofthis meeting?
And then what am I going to doto follow up afterwards?
(13:17):
So that's just like a basicstructure for running a team
meeting, but it's something thatanybody at an individual
contributor level so someone whois maybe thinking about
becoming a manager in the futurecan start working on now.
You know, volunteering forthose extracurricular, so to
speak, activities that will givethem an opportunity to practice
(13:38):
under a safe environment.
I also encourage folks toidentify some of these skills
and even practice them in theirhome life.
So are you running a familymeeting?
Are you planning a family event?
Who are you engaging with in afamily context to bring about
(13:59):
whatever it is that you'reworking on?
I think the key here is to justpick a couple of skills.
You don't want to do all ofthem at once, but just pick a
couple of skills that are goingto work for you, moving forward,
finding opportunities topractice them, getting feedback
from folks around you on how youcan do even better, and then
continue to grow and developthat way.
Speaker 1 (14:19):
Yeah, joanne, when I hear you use that verb of pick
pick two of those skills thatyou want to get better at what I
really hear is that level ofintentionality.
Is that all too often in lifeand professional careers, in
relationships, we think thatthings will naturally evolve
over time because that's the waythat the universe works.
But it's that level ofintentionality that brings about
tangible changes.
And so, with that in mind, Ialways kind of hear, when we
(14:41):
talk about leadership, I hear alittle bit of conflicting advice
about pick those things thatare your weaknesses and make
those better, versus double downon your strengths.
So, joanne, when it comes to uspicking what it is that we
should be working on, where doyou fall in that debate of
picking on those weaknessesversus making our strengths even
more amplified?
Speaker 2 (15:02):
You know it's picking what's going to get you to
where you want to get you.
I'm a huge advocate of doingwhat you love and loving what
you do, and I find that we havea lot more.
We love doing a lot more ofwhat's related around our
strengths than maybe what ourweaknesses or areas of
improvement are.
But there are some roles thatrequire certain skills that
(15:28):
maybe we're not too fond of andmaybe it means for our future
success that we need to gain alevel of familiarity with them,
even if we don't love them.
So I am an advocate for playingto your strengths.
I think that that makes a lotmore sense.
(15:49):
But I think we need to be realabout the future roles that we
want to work on, that we're notmaybe going to love every single
aspect of them.
If we can make a majority ofour time doing things that we
love, obviously that would beideal, but I think we also need
(16:11):
to be practical about, you know,our day-to-day finding ways to
do whatever we can do in orderto be successful, and hopefully
that is playing around our, ourstrengths.
But sometimes, yeah, thosethose you know there's we've
always, we've all got somethingto learn.
You know, we've all gotsomething to to work on and,
(16:33):
surprisingly to brian.
Sometimes I truly believe wedon't know where our true
strengths might be until we'reopen to discovering ourselves a
little bit, a a little bit more.
You know I'm going to age myselfhere, but imagine if Elton John
never started to twinkle on theivories of the piano.
(16:55):
You know what if John Lennonand I heard his wonderful song
Imagine the other day I guessthat's why he comes to mind what
if he never picked up a guitar?
You know, his brilliance wouldnever, their brilliance would
never have maybe had theopportunity to shine.
And maybe when they firststarted playing the piano or,
you know, playing the guitar,they didn't really like it that
(17:16):
much, but they wanted to.
They wanted to to obviouslymake something of themselves and
found an avenue to to do that.
Maybe they had great days wherethey thought, oh yeah, this is
really cool.
And maybe they had days wherethey thought, oh, I just want to
give up.
But I think their resilienceand perseverance is also key
(17:38):
when you've identified what isit that I want to do, what is
the impact that I want to haveon this world and how am I going
to do.
What is the impact that I wantto have on this world and how am
I going to get there?
And I think it's a bit of giveand take on both sides.
Speaker 1 (17:53):
Yeah, and hearing you talk about that within the
context of Elton John or anyonewho's quote unquote made it in
any industry.
You brought up resilience, youwent straight there and that's
something that when people askme, what are the ingredients to
piggyback on your recipe, whatare the ingredients to
entrepreneurial success?
Resilience has to be in thatmix.
And then where I start going isI broaden it and I say, well,
(18:15):
so much of it just comes down tomindset.
And, joanne, I love the factthat neuroscience plays into the
lens in which you do your workand the lens in which you help
people, because, for me, Imajored in economics and I
really love behavioral economicsbecause a lot of it focuses on
psychology and the way that themind works and especially biases
, recency bias, selection bias,all those different things.
(18:36):
Talk to me about how that lensreally shapes and is kind of
your secret power when it comesto helping people understand
these things.
Speaker 2 (18:45):
Interesting.
You know I was introduced toneuroscience and the concept of
neuroscience and leadership notlong after I moved to the United
States back in 2011 from HongKong.
I'd lived there for three and ahalf years before living in
Australia and this concept ofneuroscience I had been
introduced to great works of youknow the likes of Stephen Covey
(19:08):
from a leadership.
You know Ken Blanchard, otherpeople and it was always what
those people, what those famouspeople, great minds, what they
brought to the table from amanagement and leadership
perspective, was always reallyinteresting great books, etc.
Neuroscience came to the foreand all of a sudden, a lot of
what they were talking about orhad been talking about for the
(19:28):
last 10, 20 years and beyond wasnow provable in science by
looking at the human brain andseeing the impact that doing
certain activities or thinkingcertain ways was actually having
on the physiological structureof the brain.
So wow, like bam, fascinatingstuff from a leadership
(19:50):
development perspective.
So that's what pushed me intodoing my post-grad through the
Middlesex University in the UKon the topic and I loved every
single second of it.
One thing I learned which onething?
A couple of things I got out ofthat.
The main one was, as you callit, a lens.
Once you've learned anything,you can't not look at
(20:13):
situational circumstance throughthe lens of your education,
right?
So that was important.
And then I started to, you know, really apply, uh, in the
corporate sense, a lot of whatthe science was teaching us and
that was starting to get reallyinteresting when we got the
(20:35):
opportunity to do to do that.
And I can give you an exampleone of the significant areas
that um are in on on impacts onthe brain is this sense of
having autonomy.
You, so we've all heard ofmanagers that micromanage us,
(20:58):
and micromanagement is one ofthe worst things that managers
can do, because what they do inmicromanaging their team is they
take away a person's sense ofchoice and control a person's
sense of choice and control.
So, and I'd seen a lot ofmicromanagers in my time, a lot
of managers who really wanted tocontrol situations,
(21:24):
circumstances, people, and notonly were they getting
frustrated with their team, buttheir team was obviously getting
frustrated with them.
So something was not workingaround this whole concept of
micromanagement.
And I remember being in alecture it was like, because I
was traveling so much at thetime, I think my lecture in UK
time was like 3 am or 3 am inthe morning in Japan, so it was
(21:46):
like some crazy time and we weretalking in this lecture about
autonomy and the importance forhaving a sense of autonomy on
the human brain.
And one of the gentlemen that Iwas studying with was living in
the UK and he told a story aboutgetting home from work and he
(22:10):
had a four or five-year-old sonand as he entered his home his
son was playing on the staircaseas there's often a lot of
staircases like right in thefront door of those homes in the
UK, from my experience.
So he greeted his son and thenwent to the kitchen and helped
his wife prepare dinner.
So it's dinner time and hecalls out to his son, who's
still playing on the stairs cometo the dinner table for dinner.
(22:32):
The son was having so much funplaying on the staircase that he
said no, dad, I'm not going tocome to the dinner table tonight
to eat dinner.
You bring my dinner to me hereon the stairs.
Well, this was not acceptable tothis gentleman because it was
their family tradition to eatdinner at the dinner table.
So he'd been studying this workor doing this work on the
(22:55):
importance of autonomy, choiceand control and rather than just
tell his son to get to thatdinner table and eat his dinner.
He took a moment, took a stepback and he said okay, you need
to eat your dinner at the dinnertable, right?
So he set clear expectations,which is really important as
well.
He said but I'll tell you whatyou don't have to sit at your
(23:17):
normal seat when you eat yourdinner.
You can sit at any seat at thetable.
That's your choice.
The kid was interested.
Why?
Because his dad wasautomatically giving him a
little bit of choice, a littlebit of control over his
circumstance.
But the dad didn't stop there.
He doubled down and he said andI'll tell you what you don't
(23:41):
have to only choose where yousit.
You can also choose where daddysits and where mummy sits at
the table.
That kid was at that dinnertable so quickly.
Why?
Because he had a sense ofcontrol over his situation.
He had choices to make and fromthose choices the control and
(24:02):
the sense of autonomy cameshining through.
So how do I refer that from amanagement and leadership
development perspective?
As a manager, sometimes itdoesn't matter how things get
done, it just matters that theyget done.
And if managers can be a littlebit more creative sometimes and
(24:23):
, rather than tell their directreports what to do, ask their
direct reports what might be thebest way that we can get this
done.
First hear from their directreports, and then maybe their
direct reports have actually gota better idea than what the
manager might have had in thefirst place, or the manager can
then share their perspective andthey can have a conversation
(24:43):
around the best way of gettingthings done.
So neuroscience changed my life, gave me a completely new lens
through which I could engagemanagers and leaders also from a
training perspective as well,and how I can maybe encourage
them to think a little bitdifferently about how they
engage with and manage theirteam.
Speaker 1 (25:06):
Yeah, joanne, I love that real life story that you
gave us, the example of the dadgetting the son to come to the
table and giving that controland power.
What I hear and what reallyresonates from my own personal
experience is even just creatingthat environment for someone
else to step into.
Joanne, I'll share this withyou.
Is that all the way back?
It was probably my early 20s, Iwas taking my soccer coaching
(25:28):
licenses and I remember theinstructor.
I played my whole life and so Ithought you know, because I'm a
good player by default, I'mgoing to be a good coach.
Of course, it's absolutely nottrue.
And so the instructor that daychallenged me with coming up
with a practice plan thatteaches kids how to dribble a
soccer ball.
And so I, of course, went alittle analytical and I said
(25:49):
well, you use the inside of yourfoot and you push it and
sometimes use the outside ofyour foot.
And the instructor stopped meand he said look, you'll never
be able to explain to somebodyhow to do it.
Create an environment thatforces them to dribble.
And I said well, how do Icreate an environment that
forces them to dribble?
They're just going to kick theball as far as they can.
They're kids.
That's what kids do with a ball.
And he said how about we have apractice drill where you can
(26:11):
only pass backwards?
And I thought to myself you canonly pass backwards.
Well, what's going to happenthere?
And he said the kids themselveswill realize that the only way
forward is to dribble because wecan only pass backwards.
And he called that style guideddiscovery.
He said you don't need to teachthem how to dribble, you need
to guide them to the point wherethey discover that.
(26:33):
Joanne, this is a little soccerexample and I'm excited for you
to connect the dots.
Yeah, for both me and forlisteners.
How do we implement that in ourbusinesses?
How do we implement that asleaders?
Because, to your point about,we don't care how it gets done,
we care that it does get donesuccessfully.
What's the business and themanagement equivalent of that
soccer coaching example?
(26:53):
What's the business?
Speaker 2 (26:54):
and the management equivalent of that soccer
coaching example.
Yeah, I think that's a greatexample, I don't know.
I think a lot happens in teammeetings, you know.
To take the team analogy onestep further, there I think
managers need to create thespace, like what your coach did,
create the space for brilliance, create the space for
(27:15):
conversation, create the spacefor collaboration, and in doing
so, I think I find that managersare really surprised by what
their team can come up with.
The challenge there.
You know, if managers don't dothat, they end up having a
number of direct reports whojust rely on their manager to
give them the answers or solvetheir problems or tell them what
(27:37):
to do.
And you know I'm not sure aboutanyone else, brian, but I know
that I definitely want to beable to take a vacation in the
future, and managers that don'tencourage, enable, empower their
teams will never really get tohave a vacation, because they'll
always need to be at theirteam's beck and call, so to
speak, to actually get anythingdone.
(27:58):
So there's something in thisfor managers to do as well, but
it doesn't happen by accident,and I find that you know even
the most structured managers whohave a to-do list or have an
agenda for every meeting thatthey're working on.
(28:20):
Maybe make an agenda point tohave fun for 20 minutes, you
know, and maybe put to theirteam what could we do to have
fun together?
Or, you know, I get to know youactivity for 10 minutes out of
a 50-minute team meeting it onthe agenda, because sometimes if
you don't make the time forsomething then it just won't
(28:41):
happen.
Speaker 1 (28:42):
Yeah, I love that, joanne, it's so true.
You make me think of one of ourinternal meetings the other day
where we ended up talking aboutthe moon landing and how that
impacted our families, and oneof our team members, laura,
talked about her grandmother'smemories from that.
My mom's family had moved tothe United States in 1969.
And it plays into.
What did it have to do withbusiness?
And how did AI make sense ofthat meeting transcript?
(29:02):
It didn't, but it reallyfurthered the way that we
created that environment wherewe can all share things, where
we can basically say our ownthoughts, our own perspectives,
regardless of how it plays intothe way that others have to
think.
So when we talk about culture,joanne, I feel like everyone
tries to put labels on it, butthe actual practices that you're
talking about today, this iswhat yields a culture, and I'm
(29:24):
so appreciative of the way thatyou go about your work.
I told you before we hit recordthat time would fly by, but I
want to squeeze two morequestions in with you, and so
the first question.
It's something that I hadhighlighted about your messaging
, because I love your businessbrand, I love the name of your
company, but what I really loveis your mission and, quite
simply, I love that sentencethat says at the leadership
recipe, we're about unleashingthe extraordinary within you.
(29:47):
Joanne, when I imagine the workthe deep and meaningful work
that you do with your clients, Iwould imagine that in order to
do that, step one is to get themto see and believe the
extraordinary within them.
What does that look like?
How do you bring that out ofthe people that you work with?
Speaker 2 (30:04):
I think it's a great question.
To me it starts with askinglots and lots of questions
because you know the leadershiprecipe.
The thinking behind that wasthere are literally millions of
recipes out there and I can givesome basics of some of the
things that I believe might gointo making a great manager or a
great leader.
But everybody is unique.
(30:26):
Everybody has personal aspects,personal styles that they bring
to the table, styles that theybring to the table.
So I find you actually learn alot more about yourself when you
are asked questions and beinggiven an opportunity to kind of
really think through the answersto those questions.
(30:49):
So it starts with me asking alot of questions of my clients,
not only so I get an opportunityto understand them and their
uniqueness, maybe theirstrengths, but more their
uniqueness of what they bring tothe table.
And what I find reallyfascinating is just in them
(31:09):
answering those questions youliterally see little light bulbs
going off.
You see little, you know.
You see smiles on people'sfaces when they really start to
understand, believe, think alittle bit differently, see
themselves in a new light, getmore confidence and clarity in
(31:31):
their thinking as well.
It's truly delightful to seeand that's why I talk about.
You know, are you hungry,looking for a unique leadership
recipe that I believe we alluniquely bring to the table?
And it starts with asking lotsof questions and giving an
(31:52):
opportunity for people to kindof really think through their
answers, and then me reflectingback to them what I think I
heard.
And then, you know, I think I'ma great listener, but you know,
there's even when I speak andsomeone reflects back to me what
I have said, sometimes they'vereflected back perfectly and it
(32:13):
is what I said, but it's notwhat I meant.
And so that means that I'mencouraged to think about myself
much more deeply andreflectively, by maybe asking
myself and answering questionsthat I'd never really thought I
would.
And doing so just kind of peelsback the layers of the
(32:37):
uniqueness that a person bringsto the table and creates an
inner level of understanding,appreciation and, dare I say it,
self-love I don't knowDefinitely self-awareness.
No doubt about that.
Speaker 1 (32:51):
Yes, I love that, joanne.
I would argue, from the outside, looking in, just having looked
at your work as much as I have,that it's not just about those
questions.
But, jo, that, joanne, I wouldargue from the outside, looking
in, just having looked at yourwork as much as I have, that
it's not just about thosequestions.
But, joanne, you obviously havethat ability to create that
environment where thosequestions actually have the
space to leave that impact, andso I really appreciate the way
that you go about your work andspeaking of questions.
The only question that I ask,that's the same in every single
(33:14):
episode, is this final one, andthat is what's your best piece
of advice for listeners Knowingthat we're being listened to by
both entrepreneurs andentrepreneurs at all different
stages of their own growthjourneys, and also knowing that
you're not just the subjectmatter expert that you are, but
you're also one of us, you'realso a fellow entrepreneur.
So, with that hat on, what'sthe one piece of advice you want
to leave listeners with today?
Speaker 2 (33:37):
Find a way to love what you do and do what you love
, you know, even if it's notimmediately available to or even
if you're not truly immediatelyaware of it.
Find something in what you'redoing that you love and just
continue to do more and more ofthat, or as much of that as is
(34:00):
possible.
And I can give you a reallyquick example in another
lifetime I was actually a singer.
I was so much of a singer thatI had a manager.
I mean, I'm going back a longtime and that manager would
really be supportive in helpingme find gigs and and singing
opportunities.
And it was a long time and thatmanager would really be
supportive in helping me findgigs and singing opportunities.
And it was a great time in mylife.
(34:22):
Obviously, I wasn't meant to bean international singer.
I think I was truly mediocre atbest.
But I went on and did mypsychology degree and started
doing a lot of management andleadership training and I would
bring song into the classroom.
You know, if I got it up, ifsome lyrics to a song came to
mind, I would just burst intosong in the middle of the
(34:43):
classroom.
Well, that got people'sattention, you know, and it was
fun.
You know, sometimes we wouldeven be kind of clicking and,
you know, jiving along withwhatever was going on.
Quite an unusual circumstancein a corporate training program,
but I became known for that.
I had a bit of a reputation forthat.
So, as much as I wasn't meantto be a singer per se, I found a
(35:07):
way to bring singing intoanother love, and doing so
enabled me to continue to dowhat I love and love what I do,
but also create a level ofuniqueness with who I was and
how I wanted to stand out in myprofession.
Speaker 1 (35:25):
Yes, I love that advice for our listeners and,
joanne, I love the way that it'smanifested in your work and
what it is that you do.
That's the beauty of being anentrepreneur is that we get to
inject ourselves and ourpassions and our hobbies into
the way that we operate.
So huge kudos to you, joanne.
I also so appreciate all thegood stuff that you're putting
into the world, including yourbook.
Huge congrats to you for that.
(35:46):
I know how much work goes intothat.
So, joanne, you owe ourlisteners some links.
Where the heck can they go tolearn more?
about all your great work andfind that book of yours.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
Fantastic.
I've got a sample of the bookhere with lots of flags in it
from my perspective, but it'scalled Game On Is Management
your Best Career Play, and it'sreally a guide for, or a
playbook for, next-gen leadersto help them make a decision to
become a manager rather thanmaybe fall into a management
role like so many people do.
(36:17):
They can always email me atjoanne at theleadershiprecipecom
.
I would love to hear from youand also, obviously, check out
my website, which istheleadershiprecipecom.
Speaker 1 (36:28):
Yes, and listeners, you already know the drill.
We're making it as easy aspossible for you to find those
links down below in the shownotes, no matter where it is
that you're tuning into today'sepisode.
Super simple to remember.
Joanne, I love the fact thatyou got that domain name
theleadershiprecipecom.
You'll find a link to her bookthere as well.
So do not be shy in reachingout.
Most people are.
This is such an easy way foryou to stand out with incredible
(36:50):
entrepreneurs and guests likeJoanne is be one of the few that
proactively reaches out andcontinues the conversation.
So, joanne, on behalf of myselfand all the listeners worldwide
, thanks so much for coming onthe show today.
Speaker 2 (37:02):
Thank you so much for having me.
What fun.
Speaker 1 (37:05):
Hey, it's Brian here, and thanks for tuning in to yet
another episode of theWantrepreneur to Entrepreneur
podcast.
If you haven't checked us outonline, there's so much good
stuff there.
Check out the show's websiteand all the show notes that we
talked about in today's episodeat thewantrepreneurshowcom, and
I just want to give a shout outto our amazing guests.
There's a reason why we are adfree and have produced so many
(37:27):
incredible episodes five days aweek for you, and it's because
our guests step up to the plate.
These are not sponsored episodes.
These are not infomercials.
Our guests help us cover thecosts of our productions.
They so deeply believe in thepower of getting their message
out in front of you, awesomeentrepreneurs and entrepreneurs,
that they contribute to help usmake these productions possible
(37:50):
.
So thank you to not onlytoday's guests, but all of our
guests in general, and I justwant to invite you check out our
website because you can send usa voicemail there.
We also have live chat.
If you want to interactdirectly with me, go to
thewantrepreneurshowcom.
Initiate a live chat.
It's for real me, and I'mexcited because I'll see you, as
always every Monday, wednesday,friday, saturday and Sunday
(38:13):
here on the Wantrepreneur toEntrepreneur podcast.
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