The future of green energy of course involves water. The biggest increases in consistent renewable energy production all involve water. Of course the next issue is how do we store all of this green energy? Well the ocean may hold the answer to this question too.
In this episode you will learn all about Wave Energy from Michael Henriksen, the CEO of Wavepiston. Wavepiston is changing the game when it comes to capturing wave energy and transferring it to electricity.
You'll also learn all about the future of geothermal energy in Canada from Dr. Steve Grasby the President of Geothermal Canada. Canada is one of the only countries with active volcanoes that doesn't produce geothermal energy. Tune in to hear how Dr. Steve is planning on changing that.
Now how can we store all of this green energy? Did someone say batteries? Or even better how about electric vehicles? Dr. Greg Stone the Chief Ocean Scientist from the Metals Company lets us in on the little secret sitting on the ocean floor that may revolutionize the future of electric vehicle batteries.
The ABP is establishing a conservation Aquarium in the Prairies to help tell the Story of Water.
Disclaimer: This post contains affiliate links. If you make a purchase, I may receive a commission at no extra cost to you.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
David Evans (00:00):
By the year 2022, has gotten off to quite a start.
(00:08):
Let's see, Russia invadedUkraine. And the world is
watched in horror at theabsolute terrible events that
have happened in Ukraine, butalso in admiration of the
strength and resilience of theUkrainian people. COVID-19
pandemic restrictions that areloosening again, so maybe we
will be going back to normal.
And there's another thing that Ihear about constantly rising gas
prices. Now there's manypossible reasons for these
(00:32):
fluctuations and gas prices canbe inflation. There's the Russia
Ukraine conflict and thesanctions imposed by Western
countries on Russian oilproducts. But we're also feeling
the aftershocks of the shutdownsduring the COVID 19 pandemic. So
OPEC and oil producing nationscut global production of oil and
fossil fuel products by 10%,during the COVID 19 pandemic,
(00:55):
simply because the demand wasn'tthere. So the price has dropped.
As we've been ramping back upand reintroducing back to life,
as we normally knew it, theproduction of oil hasn't kept
pace with the reopening. So theprices have increased because
there's less supply. And whilewe're starting to ramp up
production to where we think wemight be, it's not as easy as a
(01:16):
one day turnaround. It takestime from that oil to be
extracted and then refined intoa form that we can actually use.
So all of these pricefluctuations have gotten people
thinking, do I really need tofill up right now, Dwayne need
to drive there. And even is thisthe right time to switch to an
electric vehicle? Crude oilmakes up over 31% of the energy
(01:38):
supply for the entire world. Andif we stay in our current
trajectory, we will run out ofoil resources within the next 50
years. We are already beginningour transition to alternative
energy sources. Specifically, Iwant to talk about renewable
energy, and some of therenewable energy sources that
(01:58):
you may not be thinking of whenyou think of renewable energy.
Now, we're not talking aboutwind, we're not talking about
solar today. By the end of thispodcast, my goal is for you to
go away and start screaming fromthe hilltops about geothermal
energy and wave energy and howwe can use these technologies as
part of our renewable energyportfolio for the future. And
we'll also be discussingelectric vehicles and probably
(02:21):
their most contentious issue thebatteries How can we get our
hands on to all of the metalsthat we need to create these
batteries in the leastenvironmentally damaging way?
That sir, G. nippy oh me No,into me marry a child. Why water
(02:56):
we doing? And how can we dobetter? Your one stop shop for
everything water related fromdiscussing water, its use and
(03:21):
the organisms that depend on itfor all the global issues that
you really never knew all had todo with water. I'm your host,
David Evans from the aquaticbiosphere project. And I just
want to ask you something. Whatare we doing? And how can we do
better?
(03:58):
Let's start with a quickdefinition, renewable energy.
What is it? Well, renewableenergy must be derived from a
natural process and it must bereplenished faster than it's
actually being consumed.
According to the InternationalEnergy Agency, if you look at
all of the energy that's usedglobally supplied around the
world, 2.3% of that is fromrenewable energy sources.
(04:20):
Actually, Canada's punching wellabove its weight, because we're
already at about 18.9% of ourenergy generation is from
renewable sources. Right now,our most important renewable
energy sources are coming fromhydroelectric dams, then
followed by wind energygeneration, and then biofuels.
So these are our three topproducers currently, with
(04:44):
hydroelectricity being thenumber one standout. It
currently accounts for over 59%of all of the electricity
generation in Canada. And youprobably guessed it, solar and
wind energy are the two mostquickly growing industries In
the renewable energy sector inCanada, and they're probably the
ones that you're most familiarwith. And you see most often.
(05:05):
And if you're familiar with windand solar energy generation,
you're probably also familiarwith the common knock against
these technologies is that theygenerate electricity when it's
sunny, and when it's windy. Andthat doesn't always correspond
when we actually need all ofthat electricity. So it becomes
(05:25):
this complicated problem ofgetting energy to where it needs
to go at the right times andstoring energy. Whereas you
can't just really generated tomeet the demand that you need to
meet. Whereas hydro isdefinitely something where you
can turn it on and turn it off,and pump back all of that energy
back up into those reservoirs,so that you can use it later,
(05:49):
like a large battery. But theproblem too, is you need the
right location and the rightgeography to be able to put in a
hydroelectric project. Also, ittakes up a huge area and
completely changes thelandscape. So you have to take
that into account as well. Sowhat other options are out there
that can help us complement ourcurrent renewable energy
(06:09):
portfolio?
Michael Henricksen, WavePi (06:13):
What happens when we wavy energy pin
success yet? Why haven't we anycompetitive like, why don't like
when wind and solar? And thesimple answer is, is because
it's more difficult. In the olddays with the local blacksmith,
he just built his own littlewind turbine, put it next to his
farm or whatever, and thenstarted working on this going
back and forth cetera, we needto put something in the sea. And
(06:34):
that makes it more difficult. SoSo what we've done in the world,
now we have taken them all lowhanging fruits of the renewable
energy, we're still going to usethat much more wind much more
solar as needed. And then wejust need to add, now we need to
add the wave energy because it'sa very large potential. And we
are getting there. It's not onlyOspital, stable, interesting
companies in the world. Nowlooking into this, this
(06:56):
renewable energy source. We alsoneed that to complement wind and
solar because the wave energythis all places actually time I
shift compared to wind and ofcourse, solar energies in the
daytime, it's not in thenighttime. So by having several
renewable energy sources, makesit much more interesting. It's
better to stabilize the grid andsort of having a total system
(07:17):
viewmont getting renewables a100% renewables.
David Evans (07:21):
Sorry, there's a quick introduction, and we need
to make Michael, tell us alittle bit about yourself in
Wave piston.
Michael Henricksen, WaveP (07:27):
Well, I'm Michael Henrickson, I'm the
CEO of wave piston, I've beeninvolved in wave energy since
end of 2013, and CEO of wavepiston since 2014. And in Wave
piston, we are working with theenergy of the waves to convert
them to something usable viaturbogenerator, to electricity.
(07:47):
And we can also use the energyin the wave for desalination via
reverse osmosis plants. So thisis sort of our basics of our
system.
David Evans (07:57):
It's funny, every time I think about wave energy,
I just think about people whoare getting their photos taken
right beside the ocean. Andsuddenly a giant wave comes up
crashes over them completelyruins the photo. But imagine if
you can use the kinetic energyof that wave to charge your
phone. Now, there are manydifferent ways of capturing wave
energy, there are some reallycool companies doing things with
(08:18):
big buoys, there areattenuators, which are basically
these long flowing devices thatjust kind of sit on top of the
waves and looks like a giantsnake just swimming in the
ocean. And what makes wavepiston different is their force
cancellation design. Stick withme here, I'm going to do my best
to explain it, but it might justbe easier to look them up
(08:39):
online. Alright, so wave pistonhas all of these large plates, I
like to think of them as boogieboards that are standing up at
the surface of the water. Nowthey all stand one behind the
other, and they're all attachedby a pipe that runs through
them. Now these plates areattached so that they can
actually move back and forthalong the length of that pipe.
And as the waves crash overtowards shore over these plates,
(09:02):
they actually move back andforth with the wave kinetic
energy. Now how in the worldwould they not get just got
ripped away with all of thishuge wave power that we're
talking about? Well, that's theidea of force cancellation. So
as one plate is pushed back,another plate is pushed forward,
because there's many differentcompeting forces actually within
a wave. And this means that youhave competing forces. So you
(09:26):
actually don't have to have thatcrazy of a mooring system to
make sure that it doesn't getripped away. It's actually going
to help keep yourself stable.
Now with all of this movement ofthe plates, all of that energy
is being captured and being usedto bring in seawater from the
end of that pipe and pressurizeit as it makes its way along
that pipe. I think I covered it.
(09:49):
Well, to be safe. Let's hear itagain from the CEO.
Michael Henricksen, WavePist (09:52):
So the back and forth movement is
sucks and seawater and then itpushes you know this you're into
a pressure pipe and we creasepressure to 60 pounds. So what
we're working on we take theenergy from the waves and then
we pressurize seawater. And thatpressure seawater is set
transported via air pressurepipe to a conversion station.
(10:13):
Yeah. And the interesting parthere is that for a pressurized
water you can use at least fortwo things. One is you can we
can drive a turbine, so thatspins around drives a generator
and we can produce theelectricity to the grid. The
other interesting part of thepressure is seawater will be
sucked in and pressurized it ispressurized seawater is what is
(10:34):
needed for reverse osmosis.
David Evans (10:37):
All right, history lesson, episode three of season
one seawater desalination. Yeah,you need pressurized seawater
for seawater desalinationthrough reverse osmosis. So it's
a perfect fit. So not only doeswave piston provide the
opportunity for electricitygeneration from waves, but it
also provides the opportunity toswitch to seawater desalination,
(10:58):
depending on the current need.
Now, the theoretical potentialof this wave energy is huge.
It's been predicted to be from20,000 terawatt hours to 80,000
terawatt hours, which meansabsolutely nothing. I mean,
that's just a big number. I haveno idea what a terawatt hour
even is. Okay, that's a lie,because I just looked it up. And
20,000 terawatt hours is exactlyhow much we use for all of the
(11:21):
electricity for the entireworld. So we have 100% to 400%
of the potential electricitythat we would actually need. No,
of course, there's a lot ofthings that would need to go
right. And we'd need to improvethe efficiency of the
conversion, we'd need to haveconverters literally everywhere,
and that's not going to happen.
(11:44):
But wave energy does have a lotof potential to grow, and to
play a role in our renewableenergy future. That being said,
one of the main drawbacks isthat it's such a young industry,
it still requires a lot of proofof concept before we can get
major investment. So what's theplan to get us there?
Michael Henricksen, WavePist (12:03):
We say in the beginning, let's look
at islands isolated coastalcommunities. These are not
triple digit megawatt systems,they like two fives in 10
megawatt systems, and they havedecent generator power, many of
them fossil fuels, we want toreplace it. So we can go in and
replace everything, but at leastgo in and be a big part of the
solution for throwing thesediesel generators out. And then
(12:26):
we'll get that price onlevelized cost of energy, that
is like 30 to 40 euro cents to40 US dollars per kilowatt hour.
And that price we can competewith, of course, we need to
start somewhere to get into themarket. And then we can sort of
get economies of scale over timealso. And then, of course,
combining offshore wind and waveenergy. You know, that is, of
(12:48):
course also interesting becauseyou already have some areas. And
if you have good waves there,for instance, in the North Sea,
we should also have wave energy,because then we increase the
capacity of the whole area youand then we use to who they were
better NTLM is is one of themega trends at the moment. So
they were building energy out inthe middle of the North Sea to
start with 3d or wind and obtainkey who would have been
(13:09):
afterwards and then export thatto different countries around
the North Sea. But of course,now we have this last area, we
should also put weight on it. Sowe'll get more out of this area.
David Evans (13:21):
Wave Energy definitely has its place in the
future of our renewable energysystems. But while it typically
does peak at the low times forsolar and wind energy
production, it still doesn'tsolve the problem that we can't
predict these peaks. So whatother renewable energy systems
can we look at to help solvethis issue? Yeah, that also
(13:42):
involves water.
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geotherma (13:43):
You know, wind and solar only work
when it's sunny and windy. Oh,right. And so I suppose 30% of
the time that they produce thepower they're rated for a
geothermal power plant runs atabout a 95% efficiency, right.
So they're just always on alwaysgoing. And the other aspect
that's attractive is that it'sdispatchable, which means that
you can quickly ramp up and downthat power production. So we all
(14:05):
know the electric rush hour orso people come home at the end
of the day, and they all turn onthe lights and turn on the oven
around six o'clock. So you needthis big increase in electrical
generation to meet that demand.
And wind and solar. I mean,well, even if it happens to be
sunny at that time, you can'tjust ramp up solar production,
right? Whereas geothermal youcan.
David Evans (14:26):
This is Dr. Steve grass beat or research scientist
from the Geological Survey ofCanada, and also the president
of geothermal Canada, which isthe umbrella organization that
is looking to advance andpromote geothermal research and
development in Canada. Now, youmay be asking yourself, What Is
geothermal energy? Geothermalenergy production is just our
(14:48):
ability to capture and harnessenergy from down in the earth's
core or the Earth's mantle. Thecenter of the Earth is
continuously producing heat theabsolute center of the earth's
core sits at a very toasty 6000degrees Celsius, which is the
same temperature as the surfaceof the sun. So the whole idea
(15:11):
behind Geothermal energy is tobasically drill down very deep
holes and pump water into theseholes so that it can heat up.
And when we bring it back up tothe surface, then we can
actually extract that heat andbe able to use that to run a
turbine or some other form ofenergy generation. And then we
(15:32):
can pump the water right back inand restart the process. So you
really want to locate the placeswhere you don't have to drill as
deep down to access that heat.
Where's the heat closest to thesurface, and then you also want
to find where the rock ispermeable. And that means where
the rock is porous enough thatthe water can seep through and
absorb the heat a lot faster. Sothat way, you can have a faster
(15:55):
reflow and reheating of thatwater that you're generating. So
where can you put in ageothermal power plant?
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geothermal (16:03):
So it's it's rapidly growing around
the world, any country along therim of fires, I mean, Canada's
kind of unique, it's the onlycountry in what's called the
Ring of Fire is the PacificOcean ring that doesn't have
geothermal Development. Today,we kind of stand out as not
having developed this resource.
There's tremendous potentialthis across the country, there's
areas that are, you know, muchhigher potential for things like
electricity. So the volcanicbelts of Western BC the Yukon.
David Evans (16:29):
Oh, sorry, did anyone else know that we had
volcanoes in Canada. I mean, isthis just me that I didn't know
this. So it turns out there'sfive separate areas all
throughout BC and the Yukon thatare volcanically active and
could have an eruption, mostlythey haven't had eruptions in a
long, long time. But it's stillpossible, sorry, back to our
potential in Canada,
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geothermal (16:50):
or some of the hot sedimentary
basins and parts of BC, Alberta,Saskatchewan and northwest
territories and not going to beIceland. Iceland is a special
case country sitting on thespreading ridge of the Atlantic
Ocean, and they have a lot ofreally high temperature systems
there. But we can look at otherplaces like Germany and France
that are developing geothermaland very similar geologic
(17:11):
settings to what we have.
David Evans (17:13):
It's not that we could probably get over 5000
megawatts of energy right nowusing our current technology.
And that's not factoring in thetechnological advances that are
currently happening. So to putthat in perspective, if you were
to replace 5000 megawatts ofenergy from a coal fired power
plant every year, you'restopping 25 megatons of carbon
(17:33):
dioxide emissions every year.
Now, that would make asignificant dent in our co2
emissions. And we're alsoforgetting about the other
offset that you can have. One ofthe other things you produce is
heat. Now, what about if youcould use this heat to heat your
home or heat a greenhouse toproduce food without having to
use any oil, gas or electricityto heat your home, you're just
(17:56):
using the power of the earth.
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geo (17:58):
Remember, in Canada, like 80% of our
domestic energy use is heating.
So most of the energy we consumeis for heating and not
electricity, and especiallyplaces in northern Canada, where
you know, average airtemperatures are minus 20. On an
annual basis, you don't needvery hot water to make a big
impact on just offsetting theheating needs for those
communities. In terms of thefootprint, like per gigawatt of
(18:20):
energy you produce thegeothermal plant is
significantly less than anyother source of energy. So it's
one of the lowest landfootprints of any type of power
production. So it's all there.
It's been used to a minor extentso far in Canada, but we have
hopes that this is going to be asignificant increase in the use
of geothermal energy in thefuture.
David Evans (18:44):
The proliferation of new renewable energy sources
that are coming to a marketpoints where we can actually
start taking advantage of them,it starts to make sense
financially. It's amazing, thisproliferation is wonderful. But
how can we take full advantageof this generating electricity
is great. But if we don'treplace our reliance on fossil
(19:05):
fuels for transportation, ourco2 emissions will keep going up
and up and up. So what'sstopping us from getting into
electric vehicles tomorrow? Manypeople will point out that we
don't have enough chargingstations. So why should I get an
electric vehicle? If I can'tdrive it and charge it up or
wherever I need to go? Yes,that's absolutely true. We need
(19:26):
to build that infrastructure,build it and they will come. And
then there's the entire problemof making the batteries. Where
are we going to get all of thismetal that we need to create all
of these massive batteries forall of these cars? My next guest
doesn't really come from theenergy world, although somehow
he found himself in it now. Dr.
Greg Stone, the floor is allyours.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (19:50):
We are in the age of metals, David,
the age of oil is passed. Andnow we're in the age of metals
because with metals arranged andput in the right system Because
we can have a renewable energysystem that's a closed loop in
terms of material with, youknow, no fossil fuels and all
that. So metals is what it's allabout.
David Evans (20:12):
Dr. Greg Stone has quite the resume before he
joined the metals company, whichyou're going to hear about for
the next little bit of thepodcast. He's had many fancy
titles, including he was asenior advisor for the World
Economic Forum, he was theExecutive Vice President for
Conservation International, hewas vice president of Global
marine programs from the NewEngland Aquarium. Not to mention
(20:34):
that he's logged over 7000dives. He's published numerous
papers on marine mammal ecology.
He's co founded an oceanconservation nonprofit group
pulled a pole conservation, he'screated in marine protected
areas. He's led many trips forNational Geographics, just to
name a few. So that gives a bitof context about this person,
who now finds himself as hischief ocean scientist for an
(20:54):
underwater metals company. Now,what does that mean? And what
does that even look like? Gregfalls back in your court.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (21:06):
Did you know that mining is the
worst thing we do on thisplanet? I didn't know that until
recently, that if you look atthe biodiversity loss to carbon
production, the indigenouscommunity displacements, the
people that die doing theactivity, it is the worst thing
we do. And we know that forcertainty, because we have 1000s
of years of experience. So thisguy came up to me with this
(21:29):
idea, which I was aware of thepolymetallic nodules that have
formed on the bottom of thePacific Ocean. I've got one over
there. Let's see it. I
David Evans (21:38):
can go get it.
Yeah, that'd be very cool. Yeah,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (21:41):
these these nodules are. They were
first found in the 1800s, duringsomething called the Challenger
expedition, which was the firstoceanographic expedition ever.
And the British have fitted agun boat and traveled around the
world for two years and tried tofind out a little bit about the
ocean and they put pulled thesethings up. Can you see it?
David Evans (22:03):
In the video version of the podcast? Did I
mention we're making a videoversion this year? Stay tuned
for that coming out later. Butin the video, you can see that
he's holding up this softballsized black, bumpy, but still
somehow smooth rock looks kindof like maybe a moon rock.
Anyways, search up polymetallicnodules at the bottom of the
ocean on Google. And you'll seeall sorts of these things.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (22:27):
And they're like a pearl, Dave, they
sit on the sea floor, and theyaccumulate atoms of what's in
the seawater like a pearl does,very slowly. This is probably 10
million years old. Every elementon the periodic table that you
learned in high school is in theocean, it's it's in solution in
the ocean, these nodules formand they reflect the relative
(22:49):
abundances of the elements inthe area of which they form. And
it turns out, in certain places,especially about halfway between
Mexico and Hawaii, there's avery high concentration of
nickel, cobalt, manganese, andcopper, which are all the metals
we need for all these electriccars that are coming up, which
(23:11):
is a it's between a 600 and1,000%. increase in demand over
the next 1020 years. Now, if yougo to a terrestrial solution for
this, you're looking at 1%grades of nickel laterites.
We've already taken all the highgrades out pretty quickly. And
there's zero waste in this. Thisis 100% reusable metal. And
(23:36):
what's not metal is non toxic,and perfect additive for cement.
There's no waste, where's youknow, in the traditional mining
industry, it's 99% waste, youhave a mountain, you take down
and you use 1% of the mountainand the rest of the mountain,
you've got to do something withit. It's just, it's it's just
horrible. And we we offshorethese activities to developing
(23:59):
countries because, you know, wedon't want to have them in
California here. So why not putthem down in some place in
Africa or Indonesia? We're notgoing to see it. And there's
very little oversight. So thiswas a solution. And you can find
enough of these things and anarea less than 1% of the bottom
of the sea floor to supply thehumanity for hundreds of years.
David Evans (24:22):
Until really they're that that plentiful.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (24:25):
Yeah.
It's like cobblestones. I canshow you pictures, what they
look, wow. They're very, verydense. And we can get these into
a closed loop material. We're ina material crisis, that this guy
got a Nobel award for ChemistryA few months ago. And he said,
This is not a question aboutsupply shortages here and there.
He said, This is a questionabout lack of atoms and
(24:48):
molecules of everything. Hesays, we're running out of
everything. And we've got toreally rethink how we're going
to do this. So this Thistechnique allows you to project
a period of extraction, whichwould be 20 3040 years and then
a period where you can close theloop because you can't destroy
(25:09):
an atom. Atoms are perfectlyrecyclable, especially battery
metals and battery metals, andother metals are absolutely
essential for the new renewableenergy future, we must we must
embrace. Otherwise, we'redoomed, right? This to me seemed
like the most tangible, nittygritty hands on thing I could
(25:31):
get involved with to stop thisdirection we're headed in.
David Evans (25:40):
So the metals company, which Dr. Greg Stone is
a part of, is looking atcollecting these polymetallic
nodules that form at the bottomof the ocean. And when I say the
bottom of the ocean, I mean thebottom of the ocean, these
nodules form at or even belowthe abyssal plane. So that means
below 3000 meters in depth. Now,the metals company is looking at
(26:03):
creating these collectors thatwould go along the bottom of
this plane, and would use jetsof water to be able to lift
these nodules that are justsitting on the ocean floor, who
would lift it into the collectorto separate it from any mud or
any other particulates and allowthe mud to return right back to
the ocean floor. The nodules arethen sent right back up to the
(26:24):
surface, where it's thendeposited into carrier vessels
that will then carry thosenodules back to be processed on
land. There's a really greatvideo on the front page of the
metals company websitemetals.co. So I would highly
recommend checking it out, it'llhelp give a whole idea of this
whole operation. So it strikesme that this is a pretty hot
(26:46):
topic as metals or mining.
Fossil fuel replacements are ahot topic to begin with, let
alone doing something in theocean. So how did you actually
get involved? Greg?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (26:56):
Well, first thing I had to do was he
asked me to join the company andhelp because he knew he was
going to need somebody like meto give him cover, because I had
a reputation. And people knewthat I was a conservationist
and, and all that. So I said, Isaid, okay, and he said, You got
to keep in mind, this is a oneway street for you. And I said,
(27:18):
you have to keep in mind that ifI find someone I like I'm gonna
leave, and that's not gonna,that's not going to be very good
for you. Yeah. And he said, ifyou find something, you know,
like, I'll be right behind him.
So I felt like I was with theright people. And I gave a
speech in Abu Dhabi three yearsago at the economist ocean
Summit, where it was the firsttime a scientist like me,
someone who has some credibilityin the environmental community
(27:41):
stood up and said, you know, wemust do this, you know, and all
my colleagues, were all saying,no, no, no, don't do it can't do
it can't do it. They weren'toffering any alternatives. They
would just say, Don't do that,you know. And that's not
acceptable. You can't say no,without saying do this instead.
David Evans (28:05):
And we do need to do our due diligence to
understand what are the impactsof this? What do we know about
the ocean, how these pearls thatare dotting the ocean floor,
affect everything within theocean, and the metals company is
investigating. And that's partof Greg's job is to be there to
understand that. And especiallywhen it comes to something like
mining, where there are alreadyconcerns that Greg mentioned
(28:27):
earlier, with traditionalmining. And when you think about
mining in the ocean, some peoplejust can't even imagine what
that would look like other thanwhat's happening above water. So
of course, many people,including many individuals in
the public are very concerned,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Met (28:42):
backing up a little bit, they do have
cause to have concern, becausein the past, industry has lied
to us. They've said, Hey, don'tworry about we'll take care of
it, and they didn't. But whatthese folks don't realize is
that since that time, there'ssome sociological psychological
science around the fact that ourframeworks and our minds, the
(29:04):
way we look at the world isabout 30 years behind science
and reality. Right? They'relooking at this through like
1970s 1980s thinking. And sincethen, we've got the Law of the
Sea, we got the Convention onBiological Diversity, we've got
a whole bunch of very strongtreaties that have come into
place. There's science thatsays, This is not as bad as we
(29:28):
think. And they're not takingthat into account. They're
imagining it's 1970. And thiscompany is just rising up out of
nowhere going to destroy theworld, you know, right. That's
kind of their perspective.
David Evans (29:44):
And we do have a lot of different regulations.
The world has changed from thosedays. But just because we do
have these regulations, doesn'tmean that there are always
checks and balances in place.
And by that, I mean, there's notalways enforcement So we also
need to fund enforcement, weneed to make sure that that is a
priority. So if we make theserules, we need to make sure that
(30:06):
everyone follows them. Butoverall, I think we need to just
expand our minds and thinkthrough these decisions. In our
materialistic society, we needto get these materials from
somewhere. And typically, thesenatural resources come from
areas that are hidden fromsociety, or hidden from the
First World in that they'relocated in third world
(30:29):
countries. They're located faraway from large urban centers.
And most of us don't see theenvironmental issues that come
with them. And that's not to besaid that we don't understand
that there are environmentalconsequences of any decision
that we make. But we need totake everything into
consideration and figure outwhat's best for our world moving
forward. And that's the argumentthat I think Dr. Greg Stone is
(30:52):
trying to make for the metalscompany,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (30:58):
then the climate crisis is
accelerating much faster than wethought. And I can attest to
that firsthand. I've been outlooking myself diving and I went
to the Galapagos Islands a fewmonths ago for National
Geographic is one of theirguests scientists on one of
their Lindblad trips, and, and Idive there a lot. And I was, I
(31:18):
was kind of on vacation, really.
But I switched on my my sciencebrain. And I started looking
around and I said, Something'snot right. The Galapagos is
where we have the most upwellinganywhere in the world. That's
what drives the ocean isbringing this nutrient called
the Deep Sea to, and I sawskinny seals, you don't see
skinny seals in the GalapagosIslands, you know, you can see
(31:38):
the bones on their back, youknow, there you see the vertebra
sticking out. And the fishbiomass was way low. And
lobsters are gone from Cape Codnow, and the Gulf Stream is
slowing down and the wholethermo hay line circulation
system is beginning to halt. OrI do think that we're on the
(31:59):
verge of a collapse, climatecollapse. And I think that might
follow up civilization collapsein the next couple of 100 years,
unless we have sometechnological advances, which we
could some extraordinary thingsthat we could do pumping gases
up into the upper atmosphere,for example, that might cool the
(32:20):
planet down, there are thingsthat we could do that I hope we
can do them. But the moment thebest we can do is just keep
going to these treaty meetingsand pushing solutions like this
and doing everything that wecan. And we should be talking
about it every day, from morningtill night. You know, my parents
were both in World War Two. Andthey told me that during World
(32:42):
War Two was an existentialthreat to the world. And as a
result, everybody was focused onit, hyper focused on it. And
that's all we talked about forfour years was the war. And we
want it and put that to bed.
Well, this, this, this thread isabout 1000 times worse. And
(33:03):
we're not talking about it, youknow, it's something that we
should talk about. And, and Ihave a belief that if we talk
about it enough, it will happen.
So that's why I like podcastslike yours, and in anything that
will raise people's awareness ofthis stuff.
David Evans (33:24):
So let's keep the conversation going. Talk to your
local member of parliament, talkto your local elected official,
talk to anyone and help raiseawareness about the issues that
you care about. And this is anissue that crosses party lines,
it crosses internationalborders, it crosses across the
entire world, if we want to getto a carbon neutral future,
(33:45):
renewable energy, and thebatteries that will be able to
allow us to get to that carbonneutral future are something we
really need to discuss. Andwhether or not you agree with
either of these renewable energysources, or with the techniques
involved in gathering thesemetals, these polymetallic
nodules from the bottom of theocean. Let's talk let's start
(34:06):
talking about this and startgetting solutions underway.
Thank you so much for listeningto today's episode all about
renewable energy from water, andthe batteries that might someday
make it all possible. I wouldjust love to thank all of our
guests that we had on today'sepisode. Michael Henrickson from
(34:29):
wave piston, Dr. Steve graduatedfrom geothermal Canada, and Dr.
Greg Stone from the metalscompany. It's so cool being able
to talk with each one of you andhear your viewpoints on how
you're trying to make the worlda better place with your
companies. And I'm so excited toshare all of these conversations
and these deep dive episodesthat were coming out in the next
couple of weeks. So be sureyou're subscribed to the
(34:50):
podcast. You won't want to missany of these episodes. You can
learn more about MichaelHenrickson and wave piston at
wave piston.dk You can learnmore about geothermal Canada and
Dr. Steve grasping at geothermalcanada.org. And you can learn
more about the metals company,and Dr. Greg stone@metals.co. Be
(35:13):
sure to check out the shownotes. As I'll leave links for
all of these plus lots of otherinformation, just in case this
just whet your palate and hecan't wait to learn more, be
sure to check out the show notesthat will all be there. Dr. Greg
Stone also has a podcast. So ifyou like this, check his out.
It's called The C has manyvoices and can be found on
Google, Apple podcast, Spotify,you name it, it's everywhere. Be
(35:37):
sure to check it out. I'm thehost and producer David Evans.
And I just like to thank therest of the team, specifically
Paula Pullman, Lee Burton, andthe rest of the aquatic
biosphere board. Thanks for allof your help. And to learn more
about the aquatic biosphereproject and what we're doing
right here in Alberta tellingthe story of water, you can
check us out at aquaticbiosphere.ca. And we also have
(35:59):
launched our new media company,a b n aquatic biosphere network,
which you can find that thepublic place dot online and
search for the aquatic biospherenetwork channel, where we will
actually be posting all of thevideo episodes that we're going
to be creating this year. Sotune in. They will be out for
the next little while, but veryexcited to start sharing video
(36:22):
content as well of ourinterviews. If you have any
questions or comments about theshow, we'd love to hear them.
Email us at conservation ataquatic biosphere.org. Please
don't forget to like, share andsubscribe. Leave us a review. It
really helps us out. Thanks andit's been a splash
By the year 2022, has gotten off to quite a start.
(00:08):
Let's see, Russia invadedUkraine. And the world is
watched in horror at theabsolute terrible events that
have happened in Ukraine, butalso in admiration of the
strength and resilience of theUkrainian people. COVID-19
pandemic restrictions that areloosening again, so maybe we
will be going back to normal.
And there's another thing that Ihear about constantly rising gas
prices. Now there's manypossible reasons for these
(00:32):
fluctuations and gas prices canbe inflation. There's the Russia
Ukraine conflict and thesanctions imposed by Western
countries on Russian oilproducts. But we're also feeling
the aftershocks of the shutdownsduring the COVID 19 pandemic. So
OPEC and oil producing nationscut global production of oil and
fossil fuel products by 10%,during the COVID 19 pandemic,
(00:55):
simply because the demand wasn'tthere. So the price has dropped.
As we've been ramping back upand reintroducing back to life,
as we normally knew it, theproduction of oil hasn't kept
pace with the reopening. So theprices have increased because
there's less supply. And whilewe're starting to ramp up
production to where we think wemight be, it's not as easy as a
(01:16):
one day turnaround. It takestime from that oil to be
extracted and then refined intoa form that we can actually use.
So all of these pricefluctuations have gotten people
thinking, do I really need tofill up right now, Dwayne need
to drive there. And even is thisthe right time to switch to an
electric vehicle? Crude oilmakes up over 31% of the energy
(01:38):
supply for the entire world. Andif we stay in our current
trajectory, we will run out ofoil resources within the next 50
years. We are already beginningour transition to alternative
energy sources. Specifically, Iwant to talk about renewable
energy, and some of therenewable energy sources that
(01:58):
you may not be thinking of whenyou think of renewable energy.
Now, we're not talking aboutwind, we're not talking about
solar today. By the end of thispodcast, my goal is for you to
go away and start screaming fromthe hilltops about geothermal
energy and wave energy and howwe can use these technologies as
part of our renewable energyportfolio for the future. And
we'll also be discussingelectric vehicles and probably
(02:21):
their most contentious issue thebatteries How can we get our
hands on to all of the metalsthat we need to create these
batteries in the leastenvironmentally damaging way?
That sir, G. nippy oh me No,into me marry a child. Why water
(02:56):
we doing? And how can we dobetter? Your one stop shop for
everything water related fromdiscussing water, its use and
(03:21):
the organisms that depend on itfor all the global issues that
you really never knew all had todo with water. I'm your host,
David Evans from the aquaticbiosphere project. And I just
want to ask you something. Whatare we doing? And how can we do
better?
(03:58):
Let's start with a quickdefinition, renewable energy.
What is it? Well, renewableenergy must be derived from a
natural process and it must bereplenished faster than it's
actually being consumed.
According to the InternationalEnergy Agency, if you look at
all of the energy that's usedglobally supplied around the
world, 2.3% of that is fromrenewable energy sources.
(04:20):
Actually, Canada's punching wellabove its weight, because we're
already at about 18.9% of ourenergy generation is from
renewable sources. Right now,our most important renewable
energy sources are coming fromhydroelectric dams, then
followed by wind energygeneration, and then biofuels.
So these are our three topproducers currently, with
(04:44):
hydroelectricity being thenumber one standout. It
currently accounts for over 59%of all of the electricity
generation in Canada. And youprobably guessed it, solar and
wind energy are the two mostquickly growing industries In
the renewable energy sector inCanada, and they're probably the
ones that you're most familiarwith. And you see most often.
(05:05):
And if you're familiar with windand solar energy generation,
you're probably also familiarwith the common knock against
these technologies is that theygenerate electricity when it's
sunny, and when it's windy. Andthat doesn't always correspond
when we actually need all ofthat electricity. So it becomes
(05:25):
this complicated problem ofgetting energy to where it needs
to go at the right times andstoring energy. Whereas you
can't just really generated tomeet the demand that you need to
meet. Whereas hydro isdefinitely something where you
can turn it on and turn it off,and pump back all of that energy
back up into those reservoirs,so that you can use it later,
(05:49):
like a large battery. But theproblem too, is you need the
right location and the rightgeography to be able to put in a
hydroelectric project. Also, ittakes up a huge area and
completely changes thelandscape. So you have to take
that into account as well. Sowhat other options are out there
that can help us complement ourcurrent renewable energy
(06:09):
portfolio?
Michael Henricksen, WavePi (06:13):
What happens when we wavy energy pin
success yet? Why haven't we anycompetitive like, why don't like
when wind and solar? And thesimple answer is, is because
it's more difficult. In the olddays with the local blacksmith,
he just built his own littlewind turbine, put it next to his
farm or whatever, and thenstarted working on this going
back and forth cetera, we needto put something in the sea. And
(06:34):
that makes it more difficult. SoSo what we've done in the world,
now we have taken them all lowhanging fruits of the renewable
energy, we're still going to usethat much more wind much more
solar as needed. And then wejust need to add, now we need to
add the wave energy because it'sa very large potential. And we
are getting there. It's not onlyOspital, stable, interesting
companies in the world. Nowlooking into this, this
(06:56):
renewable energy source. We alsoneed that to complement wind and
solar because the wave energythis all places actually time I
shift compared to wind and ofcourse, solar energies in the
daytime, it's not in thenighttime. So by having several
renewable energy sources, makesit much more interesting. It's
better to stabilize the grid andsort of having a total system
(07:17):
viewmont getting renewables a100% renewables.
David Evans (07:21):
Sorry, there's a quick introduction, and we need
to make Michael, tell us alittle bit about yourself in
Wave piston.
Michael Henricksen, WaveP (07:27):
Well, I'm Michael Henrickson, I'm the
CEO of wave piston, I've beeninvolved in wave energy since
end of 2013, and CEO of wavepiston since 2014. And in Wave
piston, we are working with theenergy of the waves to convert
them to something usable viaturbogenerator, to electricity.
(07:47):
And we can also use the energyin the wave for desalination via
reverse osmosis plants. So thisis sort of our basics of our
system.
David Evans (07:57):
It's funny, every time I think about wave energy,
I just think about people whoare getting their photos taken
right beside the ocean. Andsuddenly a giant wave comes up
crashes over them completelyruins the photo. But imagine if
you can use the kinetic energyof that wave to charge your
phone. Now, there are manydifferent ways of capturing wave
energy, there are some reallycool companies doing things with
(08:18):
big buoys, there areattenuators, which are basically
these long flowing devices thatjust kind of sit on top of the
waves and looks like a giantsnake just swimming in the
ocean. And what makes wavepiston different is their force
cancellation design. Stick withme here, I'm going to do my best
to explain it, but it might justbe easier to look them up
(08:39):
online. Alright, so wave pistonhas all of these large plates, I
like to think of them as boogieboards that are standing up at
the surface of the water. Nowthey all stand one behind the
other, and they're all attachedby a pipe that runs through
them. Now these plates areattached so that they can
actually move back and forthalong the length of that pipe.
And as the waves crash overtowards shore over these plates,
(09:02):
they actually move back andforth with the wave kinetic
energy. Now how in the worldwould they not get just got
ripped away with all of thishuge wave power that we're
talking about? Well, that's theidea of force cancellation. So
as one plate is pushed back,another plate is pushed forward,
because there's many differentcompeting forces actually within
a wave. And this means that youhave competing forces. So you
(09:26):
actually don't have to have thatcrazy of a mooring system to
make sure that it doesn't getripped away. It's actually going
to help keep yourself stable.
Now with all of this movement ofthe plates, all of that energy
is being captured and being usedto bring in seawater from the
end of that pipe and pressurizeit as it makes its way along
that pipe. I think I covered it.
(09:49):
Well, to be safe. Let's hear itagain from the CEO.
Michael Henricksen, WavePist (09:52):
So the back and forth movement is
sucks and seawater and then itpushes you know this you're into
a pressure pipe and we creasepressure to 60 pounds. So what
we're working on we take theenergy from the waves and then
we pressurize seawater. And thatpressure seawater is set
transported via air pressurepipe to a conversion station.
(10:13):
Yeah. And the interesting parthere is that for a pressurized
water you can use at least fortwo things. One is you can we
can drive a turbine, so thatspins around drives a generator
and we can produce theelectricity to the grid. The
other interesting part of thepressure is seawater will be
sucked in and pressurized it ispressurized seawater is what is
(10:34):
needed for reverse osmosis.
David Evans (10:37):
All right, history lesson, episode three of season
one seawater desalination. Yeah,you need pressurized seawater
for seawater desalinationthrough reverse osmosis. So it's
a perfect fit. So not only doeswave piston provide the
opportunity for electricitygeneration from waves, but it
also provides the opportunity toswitch to seawater desalination,
(10:58):
depending on the current need.
Now, the theoretical potentialof this wave energy is huge.
It's been predicted to be from20,000 terawatt hours to 80,000
terawatt hours, which meansabsolutely nothing. I mean,
that's just a big number. I haveno idea what a terawatt hour
even is. Okay, that's a lie,because I just looked it up. And
20,000 terawatt hours is exactlyhow much we use for all of the
(11:21):
electricity for the entireworld. So we have 100% to 400%
of the potential electricitythat we would actually need. No,
of course, there's a lot ofthings that would need to go
right. And we'd need to improvethe efficiency of the
conversion, we'd need to haveconverters literally everywhere,
and that's not going to happen.
(11:44):
But wave energy does have a lotof potential to grow, and to
play a role in our renewableenergy future. That being said,
one of the main drawbacks isthat it's such a young industry,
it still requires a lot of proofof concept before we can get
major investment. So what's theplan to get us there?
Michael Henricksen, WavePist (12:03):
We say in the beginning, let's look
at islands isolated coastalcommunities. These are not
triple digit megawatt systems,they like two fives in 10
megawatt systems, and they havedecent generator power, many of
them fossil fuels, we want toreplace it. So we can go in and
replace everything, but at leastgo in and be a big part of the
solution for throwing thesediesel generators out. And then
(12:26):
we'll get that price onlevelized cost of energy, that
is like 30 to 40 euro cents to40 US dollars per kilowatt hour.
And that price we can competewith, of course, we need to
start somewhere to get into themarket. And then we can sort of
get economies of scale over timealso. And then, of course,
combining offshore wind and waveenergy. You know, that is, of
(12:48):
course also interesting becauseyou already have some areas. And
if you have good waves there,for instance, in the North Sea,
we should also have wave energy,because then we increase the
capacity of the whole area youand then we use to who they were
better NTLM is is one of themega trends at the moment. So
they were building energy out inthe middle of the North Sea to
start with 3d or wind and obtainkey who would have been
(13:09):
afterwards and then export thatto different countries around
the North Sea. But of course,now we have this last area, we
should also put weight on it. Sowe'll get more out of this area.
David Evans (13:21):
Wave Energy definitely has its place in the
future of our renewable energysystems. But while it typically
does peak at the low times forsolar and wind energy
production, it still doesn'tsolve the problem that we can't
predict these peaks. So whatother renewable energy systems
can we look at to help solvethis issue? Yeah, that also
(13:42):
involves water.
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geotherma (13:43):
You know, wind and solar only work
when it's sunny and windy. Oh,right. And so I suppose 30% of
the time that they produce thepower they're rated for a
geothermal power plant runs atabout a 95% efficiency, right.
So they're just always on alwaysgoing. And the other aspect
that's attractive is that it'sdispatchable, which means that
you can quickly ramp up and downthat power production. So we all
(14:05):
know the electric rush hour orso people come home at the end
of the day, and they all turn onthe lights and turn on the oven
around six o'clock. So you needthis big increase in electrical
generation to meet that demand.
And wind and solar. I mean,well, even if it happens to be
sunny at that time, you can'tjust ramp up solar production,
right? Whereas geothermal youcan.
David Evans (14:26):
This is Dr. Steve grass beat or research scientist
from the Geological Survey ofCanada, and also the president
of geothermal Canada, which isthe umbrella organization that
is looking to advance andpromote geothermal research and
development in Canada. Now, youmay be asking yourself, What Is
geothermal energy? Geothermalenergy production is just our
(14:48):
ability to capture and harnessenergy from down in the earth's
core or the Earth's mantle. Thecenter of the Earth is
continuously producing heat theabsolute center of the earth's
core sits at a very toasty 6000degrees Celsius, which is the
same temperature as the surfaceof the sun. So the whole idea
(15:11):
behind Geothermal energy is tobasically drill down very deep
holes and pump water into theseholes so that it can heat up.
And when we bring it back up tothe surface, then we can
actually extract that heat andbe able to use that to run a
turbine or some other form ofenergy generation. And then we
(15:32):
can pump the water right back inand restart the process. So you
really want to locate the placeswhere you don't have to drill as
deep down to access that heat.
Where's the heat closest to thesurface, and then you also want
to find where the rock ispermeable. And that means where
the rock is porous enough thatthe water can seep through and
absorb the heat a lot faster. Sothat way, you can have a faster
(15:55):
reflow and reheating of thatwater that you're generating. So
where can you put in ageothermal power plant?
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geothermal (16:03):
So it's it's rapidly growing around
the world, any country along therim of fires, I mean, Canada's
kind of unique, it's the onlycountry in what's called the
Ring of Fire is the PacificOcean ring that doesn't have
geothermal Development. Today,we kind of stand out as not
having developed this resource.
There's tremendous potentialthis across the country, there's
areas that are, you know, muchhigher potential for things like
electricity. So the volcanicbelts of Western BC the Yukon.
David Evans (16:29):
Oh, sorry, did anyone else know that we had
volcanoes in Canada. I mean, isthis just me that I didn't know
this. So it turns out there'sfive separate areas all
throughout BC and the Yukon thatare volcanically active and
could have an eruption, mostlythey haven't had eruptions in a
long, long time. But it's stillpossible, sorry, back to our
potential in Canada,
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geothermal (16:50):
or some of the hot sedimentary
basins and parts of BC, Alberta,Saskatchewan and northwest
territories and not going to beIceland. Iceland is a special
case country sitting on thespreading ridge of the Atlantic
Ocean, and they have a lot ofreally high temperature systems
there. But we can look at otherplaces like Germany and France
that are developing geothermaland very similar geologic
(17:11):
settings to what we have.
David Evans (17:13):
It's not that we could probably get over 5000
megawatts of energy right nowusing our current technology.
And that's not factoring in thetechnological advances that are
currently happening. So to putthat in perspective, if you were
to replace 5000 megawatts ofenergy from a coal fired power
plant every year, you'restopping 25 megatons of carbon
(17:33):
dioxide emissions every year.
Now, that would make asignificant dent in our co2
emissions. And we're alsoforgetting about the other
offset that you can have. One ofthe other things you produce is
heat. Now, what about if youcould use this heat to heat your
home or heat a greenhouse toproduce food without having to
use any oil, gas or electricityto heat your home, you're just
(17:56):
using the power of the earth.
Dr. Steve Grasby, Geo (17:58):
Remember, in Canada, like 80% of our
domestic energy use is heating.
So most of the energy we consumeis for heating and not
electricity, and especiallyplaces in northern Canada, where
you know, average airtemperatures are minus 20. On an
annual basis, you don't needvery hot water to make a big
impact on just offsetting theheating needs for those
communities. In terms of thefootprint, like per gigawatt of
(18:20):
energy you produce thegeothermal plant is
significantly less than anyother source of energy. So it's
one of the lowest landfootprints of any type of power
production. So it's all there.
It's been used to a minor extentso far in Canada, but we have
hopes that this is going to be asignificant increase in the use
of geothermal energy in thefuture.
David Evans (18:44):
The proliferation of new renewable energy sources
that are coming to a marketpoints where we can actually
start taking advantage of them,it starts to make sense
financially. It's amazing, thisproliferation is wonderful. But
how can we take full advantageof this generating electricity
is great. But if we don'treplace our reliance on fossil
(19:05):
fuels for transportation, ourco2 emissions will keep going up
and up and up. So what'sstopping us from getting into
electric vehicles tomorrow? Manypeople will point out that we
don't have enough chargingstations. So why should I get an
electric vehicle? If I can'tdrive it and charge it up or
wherever I need to go? Yes,that's absolutely true. We need
(19:26):
to build that infrastructure,build it and they will come. And
then there's the entire problemof making the batteries. Where
are we going to get all of thismetal that we need to create all
of these massive batteries forall of these cars? My next guest
doesn't really come from theenergy world, although somehow
he found himself in it now. Dr.
Greg Stone, the floor is allyours.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals C (19:50):
We are in the age of metals, David,
the age of oil is passed. Andnow we're in the age of metals
because with metals arranged andput in the right system Because
we can have a renewable energysystem that's a closed loop in
terms of material with, youknow, no fossil fuels and all
that. So metals is what it's allabout.
David Evans (20:12):
Dr. Greg Stone has quite the resume before he
joined the metals company, whichyou're going to hear about for
the next little bit of thepodcast. He's had many fancy
titles, including he was asenior advisor for the World
Economic Forum, he was theExecutive Vice President for
Conservation International, hewas vice president of Global
marine programs from the NewEngland Aquarium. Not to mention
(20:34):
that he's logged over 7000dives. He's published numerous
papers on marine mammal ecology.
He's co founded an oceanconservation nonprofit group
pulled a pole conservation, he'screated in marine protected
areas. He's led many trips forNational Geographics, just to
name a few. So that gives a bitof context about this person,
who now finds himself as hischief ocean scientist for an
(20:54):
underwater metals company. Now,what does that mean? And what
does that even look like? Gregfalls back in your court.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (21:06):
Did you know that mining is the
worst thing we do on thisplanet? I didn't know that until
recently, that if you look atthe biodiversity loss to carbon
production, the indigenouscommunity displacements, the
people that die doing theactivity, it is the worst thing
we do. And we know that forcertainty, because we have 1000s
of years of experience. So thisguy came up to me with this
(21:29):
idea, which I was aware of thepolymetallic nodules that have
formed on the bottom of thePacific Ocean. I've got one over
there. Let's see it. I
David Evans (21:38):
can go get it.
Yeah, that'd be very cool. Yeah,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (21:41):
these these nodules are. They were
first found in the 1800s, duringsomething called the Challenger
expedition, which was the firstoceanographic expedition ever.
And the British have fitted agun boat and traveled around the
world for two years and tried tofind out a little bit about the
ocean and they put pulled thesethings up. Can you see it?
David Evans (22:03):
In the video version of the podcast? Did I
mention we're making a videoversion this year? Stay tuned
for that coming out later. Butin the video, you can see that
he's holding up this softballsized black, bumpy, but still
somehow smooth rock looks kindof like maybe a moon rock.
Anyways, search up polymetallicnodules at the bottom of the
ocean on Google. And you'll seeall sorts of these things.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (22:27):
And they're like a pearl, Dave, they
sit on the sea floor, and theyaccumulate atoms of what's in
the seawater like a pearl does,very slowly. This is probably 10
million years old. Every elementon the periodic table that you
learned in high school is in theocean, it's it's in solution in
the ocean, these nodules formand they reflect the relative
(22:49):
abundances of the elements inthe area of which they form. And
it turns out, in certain places,especially about halfway between
Mexico and Hawaii, there's avery high concentration of
nickel, cobalt, manganese, andcopper, which are all the metals
we need for all these electriccars that are coming up, which
(23:11):
is a it's between a 600 and1,000%. increase in demand over
the next 1020 years. Now, if yougo to a terrestrial solution for
this, you're looking at 1%grades of nickel laterites.
We've already taken all the highgrades out pretty quickly. And
there's zero waste in this. Thisis 100% reusable metal. And
(23:36):
what's not metal is non toxic,and perfect additive for cement.
There's no waste, where's youknow, in the traditional mining
industry, it's 99% waste, youhave a mountain, you take down
and you use 1% of the mountainand the rest of the mountain,
you've got to do something withit. It's just, it's it's just
horrible. And we we offshorethese activities to developing
(23:59):
countries because, you know, wedon't want to have them in
California here. So why not putthem down in some place in
Africa or Indonesia? We're notgoing to see it. And there's
very little oversight. So thiswas a solution. And you can find
enough of these things and anarea less than 1% of the bottom
of the sea floor to supply thehumanity for hundreds of years.
David Evans (24:22):
Until really they're that that plentiful.
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (24:25):
Yeah.
It's like cobblestones. I canshow you pictures, what they
look, wow. They're very, verydense. And we can get these into
a closed loop material. We're ina material crisis, that this guy
got a Nobel award for ChemistryA few months ago. And he said,
This is not a question aboutsupply shortages here and there.
He said, This is a questionabout lack of atoms and
(24:48):
molecules of everything. Hesays, we're running out of
everything. And we've got toreally rethink how we're going
to do this. So this Thistechnique allows you to project
a period of extraction, whichwould be 20 3040 years and then
a period where you can close theloop because you can't destroy
(25:09):
an atom. Atoms are perfectlyrecyclable, especially battery
metals and battery metals, andother metals are absolutely
essential for the new renewableenergy future, we must we must
embrace. Otherwise, we'redoomed, right? This to me seemed
like the most tangible, nittygritty hands on thing I could
(25:31):
get involved with to stop thisdirection we're headed in.
David Evans (25:40):
So the metals company, which Dr. Greg Stone is
a part of, is looking atcollecting these polymetallic
nodules that form at the bottomof the ocean. And when I say the
bottom of the ocean, I mean thebottom of the ocean, these
nodules form at or even belowthe abyssal plane. So that means
below 3000 meters in depth. Now,the metals company is looking at
(26:03):
creating these collectors thatwould go along the bottom of
this plane, and would use jetsof water to be able to lift
these nodules that are justsitting on the ocean floor, who
would lift it into the collectorto separate it from any mud or
any other particulates and allowthe mud to return right back to
the ocean floor. The nodules arethen sent right back up to the
(26:24):
surface, where it's thendeposited into carrier vessels
that will then carry thosenodules back to be processed on
land. There's a really greatvideo on the front page of the
metals company websitemetals.co. So I would highly
recommend checking it out, it'llhelp give a whole idea of this
whole operation. So it strikesme that this is a pretty hot
(26:46):
topic as metals or mining.
Fossil fuel replacements are ahot topic to begin with, let
alone doing something in theocean. So how did you actually
get involved? Greg?
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metal (26:56):
Well, first thing I had to do was he
asked me to join the company andhelp because he knew he was
going to need somebody like meto give him cover, because I had
a reputation. And people knewthat I was a conservationist
and, and all that. So I said, Isaid, okay, and he said, You got
to keep in mind, this is a oneway street for you. And I said,
(27:18):
you have to keep in mind that ifI find someone I like I'm gonna
leave, and that's not gonna,that's not going to be very good
for you. Yeah. And he said, ifyou find something, you know,
like, I'll be right behind him.
So I felt like I was with theright people. And I gave a
speech in Abu Dhabi three yearsago at the economist ocean
Summit, where it was the firsttime a scientist like me,
someone who has some credibilityin the environmental community
(27:41):
stood up and said, you know, wemust do this, you know, and all
my colleagues, were all saying,no, no, no, don't do it can't do
it can't do it. They weren'toffering any alternatives. They
would just say, Don't do that,you know. And that's not
acceptable. You can't say no,without saying do this instead.
David Evans (28:05):
And we do need to do our due diligence to
understand what are the impactsof this? What do we know about
the ocean, how these pearls thatare dotting the ocean floor,
affect everything within theocean, and the metals company is
investigating. And that's partof Greg's job is to be there to
understand that. And especiallywhen it comes to something like
mining, where there are alreadyconcerns that Greg mentioned
(28:27):
earlier, with traditionalmining. And when you think about
mining in the ocean, some peoplejust can't even imagine what
that would look like other thanwhat's happening above water. So
of course, many people,including many individuals in
the public are very concerned,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Met (28:42):
backing up a little bit, they do have
cause to have concern, becausein the past, industry has lied
to us. They've said, Hey, don'tworry about we'll take care of
it, and they didn't. But whatthese folks don't realize is
that since that time, there'ssome sociological psychological
science around the fact that ourframeworks and our minds, the
(29:04):
way we look at the world isabout 30 years behind science
and reality. Right? They'relooking at this through like
1970s 1980s thinking. And sincethen, we've got the Law of the
Sea, we got the Convention onBiological Diversity, we've got
a whole bunch of very strongtreaties that have come into
place. There's science thatsays, This is not as bad as we
(29:28):
think. And they're not takingthat into account. They're
imagining it's 1970. And thiscompany is just rising up out of
nowhere going to destroy theworld, you know, right. That's
kind of their perspective.
David Evans (29:44):
And we do have a lot of different regulations.
The world has changed from thosedays. But just because we do
have these regulations, doesn'tmean that there are always
checks and balances in place.
And by that, I mean, there's notalways enforcement So we also
need to fund enforcement, weneed to make sure that that is a
priority. So if we make theserules, we need to make sure that
(30:06):
everyone follows them. Butoverall, I think we need to just
expand our minds and thinkthrough these decisions. In our
materialistic society, we needto get these materials from
somewhere. And typically, thesenatural resources come from
areas that are hidden fromsociety, or hidden from the
First World in that they'relocated in third world
(30:29):
countries. They're located faraway from large urban centers.
And most of us don't see theenvironmental issues that come
with them. And that's not to besaid that we don't understand
that there are environmentalconsequences of any decision
that we make. But we need totake everything into
consideration and figure outwhat's best for our world moving
forward. And that's the argumentthat I think Dr. Greg Stone is
(30:52):
trying to make for the metalscompany,
Dr. Greg Stone, The Metals (30:58):
then the climate crisis is
accelerating much faster than wethought. And I can attest to
that firsthand. I've been outlooking myself diving and I went
to the Galapagos Islands a fewmonths ago for National
Geographic is one of theirguests scientists on one of
their Lindblad trips, and, and Idive there a lot. And I was, I
(31:18):
was kind of on vacation, really.
But I switched on my my sciencebrain. And I started looking
around and I said, Something'snot right. The Galapagos is
where we have the most upwellinganywhere in the world. That's
what drives the ocean isbringing this nutrient called
the Deep Sea to, and I sawskinny seals, you don't see
skinny seals in the GalapagosIslands, you know, you can see
(31:38):
the bones on their back, youknow, there you see the vertebra
sticking out. And the fishbiomass was way low. And
lobsters are gone from Cape Codnow, and the Gulf Stream is
slowing down and the wholethermo hay line circulation
system is beginning to halt. OrI do think that we're on the
(31:59):
verge of a collapse, climatecollapse. And I think that might
follow up civilization collapsein the next couple of 100 years,
unless we have sometechnological advances, which we
could some extraordinary thingsthat we could do pumping gases
up into the upper atmosphere,for example, that might cool the
(32:20):
planet down, there are thingsthat we could do that I hope we
can do them. But the moment thebest we can do is just keep
going to these treaty meetingsand pushing solutions like this
and doing everything that wecan. And we should be talking
about it every day, from morningtill night. You know, my parents
were both in World War Two. Andthey told me that during World
(32:42):
War Two was an existentialthreat to the world. And as a
result, everybody was focused onit, hyper focused on it. And
that's all we talked about forfour years was the war. And we
want it and put that to bed.
Well, this, this, this thread isabout 1000 times worse. And
(33:03):
we're not talking about it, youknow, it's something that we
should talk about. And, and Ihave a belief that if we talk
about it enough, it will happen.
So that's why I like podcastslike yours, and in anything that
will raise people's awareness ofthis stuff.
David Evans (33:24):
So let's keep the conversation going. Talk to your
local member of parliament, talkto your local elected official,
talk to anyone and help raiseawareness about the issues that
you care about. And this is anissue that crosses party lines,
it crosses internationalborders, it crosses across the
entire world, if we want to getto a carbon neutral future,
(33:45):
renewable energy, and thebatteries that will be able to
allow us to get to that carbonneutral future are something we
really need to discuss. Andwhether or not you agree with
either of these renewable energysources, or with the techniques
involved in gathering thesemetals, these polymetallic
nodules from the bottom of theocean. Let's talk let's start
(34:06):
talking about this and startgetting solutions underway.
Thank you so much for listeningto today's episode all about
renewable energy from water, andthe batteries that might someday
make it all possible. I wouldjust love to thank all of our
guests that we had on today'sepisode. Michael Henrickson from
(34:29):
wave piston, Dr. Steve graduatedfrom geothermal Canada, and Dr.
Greg Stone from the metalscompany. It's so cool being able
to talk with each one of you andhear your viewpoints on how
you're trying to make the worlda better place with your
companies. And I'm so excited toshare all of these conversations
and these deep dive episodesthat were coming out in the next
couple of weeks. So be sureyou're subscribed to the
(34:50):
podcast. You won't want to missany of these episodes. You can
learn more about MichaelHenrickson and wave piston at
wave piston.dk You can learnmore about geothermal Canada and
Dr. Steve grasping at geothermalcanada.org. And you can learn
more about the metals company,and Dr. Greg stone@metals.co. Be
(35:13):
sure to check out the shownotes. As I'll leave links for
all of these plus lots of otherinformation, just in case this
just whet your palate and hecan't wait to learn more, be
sure to check out the show notesthat will all be there. Dr. Greg
Stone also has a podcast. So ifyou like this, check his out.
It's called The C has manyvoices and can be found on
Google, Apple podcast, Spotify,you name it, it's everywhere. Be
(35:37):
sure to check it out. I'm thehost and producer David Evans.
And I just like to thank therest of the team, specifically
Paula Pullman, Lee Burton, andthe rest of the aquatic
biosphere board. Thanks for allof your help. And to learn more
about the aquatic biosphereproject and what we're doing
right here in Alberta tellingthe story of water, you can
check us out at aquaticbiosphere.ca. And we also have
(35:59):
launched our new media company,a b n aquatic biosphere network,
which you can find that thepublic place dot online and
search for the aquatic biospherenetwork channel, where we will
actually be posting all of thevideo episodes that we're going
to be creating this year. Sotune in. They will be out for
the next little while, but veryexcited to start sharing video
(36:22):
content as well of ourinterviews. If you have any
questions or comments about theshow, we'd love to hear them.
Email us at conservation ataquatic biosphere.org. Please
don't forget to like, share andsubscribe. Leave us a review. It
really helps us out. Thanks andit's been a splash
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