August 16, 2021 • 55 mins
Despite electrical shock being a serious and potentially dangerous event, it is frequently portrayed in a cringeworthy comedic narrative. While arc flash safety requirements have changed work procedures, they may have overshadowed the dangers of electrical shock.
This week Zack and Jason speak with electrical shock awareness advocate John Knoll about his story, and the possible long term health effects (sequelae) from electrical shock. The lasting effects can be neurological, physical, and psychological.
This information may be news to members of the construction industry, and if not, it is an excellent reminder that electrical shock is no joke.
#OSHA #CSA-Z462 #NFPA70 #apprentices #sunnybrook #electricalsafety #electricians
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Zack Hartle (00:00):
Hello and welcome to Watt's the Word a podcast
connecting the electrical tradeand industry members. I'm Zack
Hartle, along with Jason Cox.
We're having relevant andinformative conversations with
members of our industry. Beforewe get started today, I just
want to remind all of you.
Please subscribe to get futureepisodes wherever you listen to
podcasts, leave us a review, andmost importantly, share this
(00:22):
with a friend who you thinkmight be valuable. So Jason
Watt's the Word on the showtoday.
Jason Cox (00:29):
Well, Zack, our topic today is long term injuries
associated with electricalshock. And we're pleased to be
joined by John Knoll, masterelectrician and advocate for the
awareness of electrical injuriesresulting from shocks. So
welcome to the show, John.
John Knoll (00:49):
Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys.
Zack Hartle (00:50):
Yeah, thanks for being here. John. Really excited
about the topic today. Rightlong term injuries associated
with electrical shock, right.
All electricians kind of facethat hazard of shock almost
every day when we're out in thefield. But before we jump into
that, tell us a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
the electrical industry itself.
John Knoll (01:13):
Oh, well, I started in construction in grade 10.
Every summer I go work in waterand sewer. And then right after
high school, I was asked by mybrother to go up to Fort
McMurray. And I did that for afew months until I was told a
phone call by my mother and shehad cancer. And that's when I
moved back to Edmonton to becloser with her and moved in
(01:34):
with one of my best friends. Andhis brother was an electrician.
And I just decided to get intothe trade that way. I started
with a company when I was 18.
And I lasted I was a year withthat company. And right away
again shocks happened. There wasreally no safety in that
company. We did ladder training.
(01:56):
We used to play games of turningthe light switches on guys, when
they were installing lights. Thepeople that were running the
crews were only first years andthree months into the trade I
was deemed a competent person.
And I got brought down into theparkade with very old journeyman
who again really didn't enforceelectrical safety. I was told
red block blue light and Istarted wiring parkades I did a
(02:17):
majority of the parkades forthat company. Again, using my
own vehicle taking companymaterials came to picking
company ladders across town notgetting paid for gas. About a
year into or nine months intothat company. They gave me a
finals work van. And I went andstarted doing finals. And again,
(02:38):
there was really no electricalsafety there. And then I started
roughing in homes and I went toschool. When I got back out of
school, I switched to anothercompany and started running my
own crews. I ran the residentialdivision for that company both
too close to my going into mysecond period of school, I
(03:01):
started renovating a grant andschool downtown, I did a third
of the renovations by myself,the bosses wouldn't come to
help. And I just kind of wentthat way with that company never
really working with a journeymanall the way up until I was a
fourth year I built ATBfinancial in Windermere by
myself. And then it was aroundthat time that the company had
(03:23):
laid off my best friend who wasrunning their residential
division now. And we kind of hadenough of it, we went to work
union. And that was the firsttime we actually were taught
Electrical Safety was working inthe union. And the focus was on
arc flush. It wasn't shocked.
And by that time, we had alreadybeen shocked probably 100 times
(03:45):
or more just low voltage shocks.
I had already experienced thequality of this injury, the
first real medical records, Ihave go back to 22,007 When I
was a second year, and I wasable to get over that by doing
yoga by doing a lot of exercise.
(04:05):
But I thought I had arthritisearly on at that age.
Jason Cox (04:09):
If we could go back just for a second. There's
there's you hit on a whole bunchand this word, so I'm going to
try this again. Sue qualia,right. Like this is a new word.
John Knoll (04:21):
Sequela
Jason Cox (04:22):
Sequela. Thank you and so so I looked that up and I
mean what that what is that wordthat that word is a condition
that it's a consequence of aprevious injury. So so what
you're you're kind of jumpinginto here we talked about two
things right off the bat. Sothere's consequences from from
you being shocked in the past.
So that's what of course what wewant to talk about today. And
(04:43):
then another big thing that thatyou've mentioned here right away
as you spent a large amount ofyour apprenticeship unsupervised
John Knoll (04:55):
the majority of my apprenticeship was unsupervised
I swear I only had journeymansupervise me three months out of
the entire four years I was anapprentice I was self teaching
myself most everything's mosteverything, even down to when I
was building the KFC Taco Bellon Ellerslie road I had was a
second or third year at thattime, and I had asked my bosses
(05:18):
to help me with the makeup airinterlock. I was told that was
just something you figured outon your own. So I did that my
entire career, I figuredeverything else
Jason Cox (05:27):
out looks like we have two two big issues here
today, our topic of electricalshock awareness. And then of
course, just the supervision ofan apprenticeship. We we
understand we know what therules are, but we know how
reality takes place. But yeah,it sounds like yeah, there was a
lot of let's just sayindependence there. That's
(05:50):
that's just, that's, I mean,every company is different. So
Wow.
John Knoll (05:55):
That was always an independent guy growing up. And
again, I was young, I didn'tknow any better. I was always
the guy that would do anything.
I was a hard worker, and quitefrankly, at the companies took
advantage of it. I was thecheapest form of labor they had.
And I could do the work thatother guides, you know,
couldn't. And I think the unsafeas part of electrical right now
(06:19):
is residential. And that's whereprimary primarily a lot of my
apprenticeship was isresidential until I opened up a
basically started the commercialdivision for a company that
started off in residential.
Jason Cox (06:35):
Yeah, that's like you said, you mentioned earlier that
the safety programs that youwere introduced to in industry
happened when you when you hitthe industrial side is clearly
as you know, a different beastwhen you go on to a massive
industrial site versus aresidential installation. Right.
(06:56):
Yeah, just totally differentsituation there. But I think I
think it comes down to not not,I understand your point,
totally, because I've worked inall three areas, or even more
areas of our trade than that.
But a lot of times it does comedown to the people you're
working with too, right? I'veI've worked with some very safe
(07:17):
people in residential,commercial and industrial. And
of course, there's also beenthose other lets other people
that that maybe aren't asinformed or careful for sure.
Can we talk about just some ofthe side effects that you've
that you've discovered? Itdoesn't have to be personally
(07:40):
but even in your research, whatare some of the side effects to
being shocked?
John Knoll (07:48):
Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to pull up
medical review that ourgovernment actually developed.
So this is a review that wasdeveloped by two doctors that
work with WCB, Alberta. And itwas a summary of the literature
that they had done on a claimand instead of actually bringing
(08:09):
this to the awareness of thepublic, they wrote a small memo
for WCB and then published thisfinding, and it's a very good
article. So in table one of thearticle, there's a plethora of
symptoms that the injured,experienced and myself, I've
probably experienced 95% ofthese, so I'm just going to
quickly go through them thepsychological symptoms that you
(08:31):
can experience after a shock andas this article states can take
one to five plus years todevelop, so you'll prick your
finger today, and a half adecade later, you might start
experiencing this stuff. Thosepsychological symptoms or
depression, post traumaticstress disorder, insomnia,
nightmares, anxiety, flashbacks,fear of electricity,
(08:54):
electricity, frustration, hyperarousal, panic attacks, low self
esteem, guilt, moodiness, memoryloss or impairment, increased
temper, reduced attention spanper verbal learning. Now there's
also neurological symptoms whichinclude memory loss, numbness,
headache, chronic pain, weaknessper concentration. A couple that
(09:18):
I will explain peritheciaCinemaScope I can't pronounce
these quote rate, loss ofbalance gait at Stasia Stasia,
carpal tunnel, seizure disordersDisneys, poor coordination,
tinnitus, tremors, and then youalso have the physical symptoms
which are generalized pain,fatigue exhaustion, reduced
(09:41):
range of motion contractureperiphery theus muscle spasms,
twitches and aches, headaches,migraines, night sweats, fevers,
chills and joint stiffness. AndI'll just explain a couple of
the ones that I couldn'tpronounce quite well. So
perithecia is an abnormalsensation tip requires tingling
or pricking pins and needlescause from this injury you have
(10:04):
skin nope, which is temporaryloss of consciousness Cost
Consciousness caused by a fallenblood pressure, your gait x, x
tayshia, which is defined as thepresence of abnormal
uncoordinated movementmovements. skysea, which is pain
affecting the back hip and outerside of the leg caused by
(10:25):
compression on the spinal roof,new spinal nerve root and the
lower back. Tinnitus is when youexperienced ringing and other
noises in one or both of yourears, you have contracture,
which is a cord condition ofshortening and hardening of
muscles, tendons and othertissues. I've had guys told me,
this explains why I can't playthe guitar anymore. You also
(10:48):
have periapsis, which is severeitching of the skin. As you can
tell, there's quite a plethoraof symptoms that the injured
experience. And you might notexperience these all at once.
For me, these started developingvery early on in the trade, and
they've only got worse sincethey haven't increased in
(11:09):
severity since I stoppedperforming work in the trade and
obviously stop receiving shocks.
Jason Cox (11:17):
Yeah, well, I look.
So the list that you just gaveus. I mean, I read that review.
And yeah, we're looking at over40 symptoms. So back in the day
myself, I would have thought theconsequence of an electrical
shock would have been a burn. Weare not talking about burns.
Today, we're talking about 40other things. And as I read
(11:41):
through these articles, Istarted to question myself, I'm
like, geez, I wonder, right?
Because I have like, I've beenin the trade for over 25 years,
and I've taken several shocks,somewhere my own fault. Some of
course weren't. But you start toquestion some of those things
(12:01):
like, like, am I getting old doI hurt from from old age? Or
could this possibly be from fromtaking a poke at a certain time.
John Knoll (12:13):
And for me, I was only 20 years old when I made
the earliest metal medicalrecords that I found was a
chiropractor intake, where I hadindicated that I thought I had
arthritis, where I had diffusepain throughout my entire body.
I had headaches, migraines, Ihad fatigue, I had 90% of the
symptoms indicated on thatchiropractor intake, and that
(12:36):
was in 2007, I was 20 years old,I shouldn't have been feeling
like that I had scored a 25% outof 100 on my functional exam
that day. So that's the problemis this injury, you prick your
finger, and you develop thesymptoms later.
Zack Hartle (12:56):
I think that's the most alarming and thing that
also makes it maybe the mostdifficult to diagnosis,
everybody's body is going toreact a little bit differently,
the timeframe from shock tosymptoms is going to be a little
bit different for everybody. AndI that's part of why what the
what you're doing right now withraising this awareness and
(13:16):
coming and talking about yourexperience is so huge, right? I
mean, the more people that havethis conversation and get
involved in this topic with, youknow, whether it be through a
Contractors Association, orwhether it be just talking with
other people, it can make a hugedifference, right. And
John Knoll (13:34):
so, I wanted to touch base because you had
talked, you thought that shocksthe primary mechanism would be
the thermal Burke's. Theresearch actually states that
that's not the primarymechanism. The primary mechanism
is a process calledelectroporation, which is
commonly used in gene therapy.
So if you want to do genetherapy, you go to a doctor's
(13:55):
office, and they inject thefluid into the area that you
want to perform that therapy on.
And then they send a tinycurrent through your body, and
it opens up the pores in yourmembranes. And then it allows
that solution to get into yourcells and do what it's supposed
to do. But the problem is whenyou receive that shock in a
(14:17):
field, those pores open up inyour cell membranes, and there's
not a concentration ofcontrolled fluid around your
cells, you have a concentrationof a lot of sodium and other
things that are surroundingthose cells and the sodium gets
into those cells. And it candisrupt how those cells send
their signals and receive theirsignals. And depending on the
(14:39):
energy of the shock, highervoltage shocks having more
energy, those cells can dieinstantaneously. So you could
have instantaneous cell deathlike some people I've heard of
where they receive a highvoltage shock and they lose the
ability to move the entire leftside of their body. They can't
see out of the left eye Theycan't talk, they can't move
(15:02):
their arm, their legs are youkind of guys like me that get
lots of low voltage shocks andthose cells seal up. But as
they're sealing up, expends alot of energy and you get the
fatigue. And then like me, thosecells are susceptible,
susceptible to further damagefrom further injuries. And for
me, I was walking down Vegas andmy legs gave out it was the
(15:25):
worst pain I've ever felt in mylife. And that was due to a
decade of shock exposure.
Zack Hartle (15:32):
Maybe we could take just one second and talk about
what what do you mean when youtalk about the difference
between low voltage and highvoltage? What voltage ranges are
we talking about?
John Knoll (15:42):
Low voltage can be as low as 30 volts. Doctors
wouldn't like batteries. I'vebeen told the keynote speech my
diagnosing Doctor Doctor. Yes,he said he would not like a
battery. 30 volts is our safevoltage that we call in Canada.
I think it's either 30 or 50.
Ones 30 in the stage 150 Here, Ithink. But for me, most of my
(16:03):
shocks were 120 volts, thehighest shock I've ever received
was 347.
Zack Hartle (16:12):
Yeah, so for us, our codebook currently would be
30 to 750 volts going up to 1000volts in the new codebook. But
so yeah, that just wanted to,you know, everyone kind of has a
different opinion on what highvoltage low voltage means. So
that's, that's good.
John Knoll (16:30):
I'm glad you asked that. He said that though.
Because medically it was 1000volts. So I think we've finally
aligned with the medicaldefinition of low voltage which
is 1000 volts and under.
Zack Hartle (16:42):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. After all the
shocks. And I've, I've heard abit of your story. I know that
when you left the Wii U and yourI think it might have even been
you and your friend, you guysstarted your own company. Or
maybe not with him, but and thenthere came a point where your
injury made it so that you couldno longer function and run that
company. Is that when youstarted to look into different
(17:05):
medical services that areavailable through the medical
system are started to look intoWCB? How did that kind of
journey look trying to get help?
John Knoll (17:16):
Well, the problem is, again, we had published or
our government had done theirresearch and their doctors had
published a medical review in2013. In 2017, we still had not
known about this medical review,I had no clue what was happening
and being the dumb stoicalburden that I was. I knew how to
fix this injury. Because I'vehad this before, doctors had
(17:37):
told me I was healthy as ahorse. So I wasn't going to
doctors. In 2017, I had justsold my company for up for a
very good price, six figures.
And I again decided this, nobodyknows what's happening. I know
how to fix this. And I went toyoga, I went to I did yoga,
every single day, I went to thechiropractor to three times a
(18:02):
week, I went for massages, youknow, one to two times a week.
And I got to a point where I wasback to feeling normal. But I
had started opening up asecurity company trying to know
that I couldn't do the heavytool work that maybe I could do
the light tool work. But at thattime, I didn't realize that the
(18:23):
effects were not only physical,they were neurological. You have
memory loss, you get frustrated.
You just can't do everythingthat you used to be able to do.
It wasn't actually until lastyear in 2020 that a member Terry
(18:45):
Becker of the ElectricalContractors Association had made
me aware of him going toAustralia and hearing about the
work that the SunnybrookHospital in Toronto was doing
through a doctor named Dr. Joelfish. And he told me this has to
be your problem. He had sent anemail to another CSA staff
(19:07):
member on the StandardsCommittee for electrical safety
and they had sent me a ton ofinformation back including the
information on Sunnybrook, butas well, the Alberta medical
review on electrical injury,it's titled titled long term
sequelae of electrical injury.
And at that moment, when I readthat, I finally admitted this
has to be my issue. And that'swhen I went to WCB for help. And
(19:31):
it's been the hardest, longestjourney of my life to get
through.
Jason Cox (19:40):
It really seems like you're you. I mean, I mean, we
don't know who was before you.
But recently it sounds likeyou're the one that's paving the
way and bringing this toeveryone's attention. Just for
for people that are listeningSunnybrook Hospital it's an
Ontario correct
John Knoll (20:00):
Yep, so Toronto, I'm diagnosed by Dr. Mark Gaskey. He
is rated number two in the worldand burns an electrical injury.
And he's the head of Research atSunnybrook Hospital. And he's
the director of the largest BurnWard, the busiest Burn Ward in
Canada. And that's where I gotmy diagnosis through. Despite
(20:20):
that, and having a secondopinion from the only other
hospital that performs researchand rehabilitation in this
injury, a Dr. Lee, who is aHarvard graduated surgeon, and
MIT graduated by an electricalengineer, my claims are still
going on to the Decision Reviewbody within WCB. They don't want
to admit this injury exists.
Once they admit it for me, theyhave to help everyone else. Part
(20:44):
of the men that are in the groupthat I formed, there's a man
that has had 60% burns acrosshis body from arc flash, but
he's not getting help for theshock. That muscle stiffness
that I talked about, in thesymptoms, he can't move his
arms. And they're not helpinghim. They say that he doesn't
(21:05):
need massage, he doesn't needchiropractor. And I'm not the
only one. When I actually firststarted my claim. I had help
getting it because there's asection 26 and WCB. Up until
this year is if you hadn't madea claim within two years, it
became a process to get in now.
(21:27):
It's only a one year. So youhave a one year to make a claim
in WCB on an injury that cantake five plus years to develop.
So when I got my first denialletter, they said oh, no, sorry,
you didn't. You didn't talkabout this within two years. And
they only actually cited half of20 seconds, section 26. They
(21:48):
completely violated one of theirmandates of providing complete
and full information. It wasn'tuntil that I contacted friends
in the industry, that I found anadvocate that would actually
help me and he read through thatdecision letter. And he
understood how poorly it waswritten. And he helped me get in
through section 26. But at thattime, I didn't understand why he
(22:11):
told me, You're never going toget help for this. You're never
going to get a diagnosis. You'renever going to go to Sunnybrook.
And now I finally understand.
Jason Cox (22:21):
Well, it sounds like like it's a it's a new phenomena
or injury. Not I mean, obviouslyfor the electricians, but even
just for the medical community.
And then the associated groupslike W WCB, as well. We've seen
over the last 20 years, just howour industries had to change. 20
years ago, we didn't talk aboutthis thing called Arc Flash.
(22:45):
Right? So arc flash is somethingnew to us. And industry has now
adopted and now recognized andstarting to make changes for
that. It looks like this is thenext step is that we need to get
more information out now aboutthe effects the possible health
(23:06):
effects from electrical shock.
And oh my goodness, I've putcountless batteries on my tongue
over the years. And if doctorsare telling me not to do that, I
probably won't do that anymore.
It probably wasn't a good ideain the first place. So so so
yeah, we need to move forward.
(23:26):
And we need to get theinformation out so good for you.
I mean, obviously, we know whyyou're motivated, but thankfully
you are going to be helpingother people.
John Knoll (23:38):
Yeah, it's funny that you're talking about arc
flash, because both theseinjuries started being
researched around the same time.
So Terry Becker, who's kind ofthe Electrical Contractors
Association safety person ofchoice, in 1996, is when arc
flash really started gettingrecognition. But at the same
time, that's when both theChicago electrical trauma
(23:59):
Research Institute and theSunnybrook Hospital started
doing their research into theinvisible effects of shock. It
was in 2013, when the ElectricalSafety Authority out of Ontario
was made aware of this, and itwas the work of Dr. yassky and
another patient. That's thereason that if you live in
(24:21):
Ontario, you can actually getyour doctor to fill out a
medical form and you can go toSunnybrook Hospital and get
help. It's the only place in thecountry that you can get help
and because healthcare isprovincial, the rest of the
country is Sol basically, youknow, I was very fortunate that
I could get the diagnosis I didbut it's because of the life
(24:43):
that I lived prior to my 30s Youknow, my early involvement in
the electrical trade and thefact that I opened the company
and I was successful and thenthat I had tried tried to
transition to soft jobs. So thatwas one of the key factors that
played into the medicalcommunity instantly saying it's
(25:04):
obvious this man has thisinjury. You know, it's we all
experience it differently. Butit's all kind of the same story.
Jason Cox (25:17):
The conditions would be different for every person.
And as far as a provincialmedical system versus a federal,
I mean, Canada, we've seen thatover the last year and a half
with COVID. It's frustratingthat, that there's different
rules for different provinces,and yet we're all the same.
We're all Canadians. So it isfrustrating. I guess moving
(25:39):
forward, we really took a we'rereally changed course in the
electrical industry with withthe rules regarding arc flash,
but we now have to also, I mean,obviously, with Arc Flash, we
had to have different work rulesbased on the energy levels,
(26:01):
right, it seems now that wereally need to start applying
those rules, and safe workpractices, not just for the
potential arc flash, right, butthe electrical shock hazard is
far. That electrical shock, thepercentage of you getting
shocked is far far far higherthan the electrical arc flash.
(26:22):
So we need to start making somechanges in how we operate as
tradespeople.
John Knoll (26:30):
Completely agree.
And I'm very thankful for theCSA Z, I think it's the Z462.
And the Z463 groups, TerryBecker's a member of them and
that entire community, we is thereason that we actually, for the
first time in 2021, have to haveelectrical safety programs
throughout Canada, you can't bean electrical employer. Now,
(26:51):
without having an electricalsafety program in place. It's
the first time in history. Andit is key. As if I could ever go
back and work in the electricaltrade on the tools, I would
never touch an energized circuitunless I had to. And I would be
wearing my let my rubberinsulated gloves with leather
protectors, I would never changea plug don't live again in my
(27:14):
life. Just knowing what canhappen to you, you know, prick
your finger one day, use theloose use the use of your legs,
years later.
Jason Cox (27:30):
Yeah, we, I mean, things have changed so much over
the years, just the whole ideaof we used to do everything hot.
And we were told this is how,how we were going to isolate and
make ourselves safe. However,when when arc flash became a
reality, then that definitelypromoted de energizing circuits.
(27:52):
You're right, there's, there'svery little excuse now for us to
be working on things live. And Iwas doing just a little bit of
research on on rubber gloves andleather protectors. And I mean,
you can have that those tools,which I mean that PPE for a
(28:13):
lower price than your safetyboots. So yeah, so I mean, yes,
you're going to have to go intoa panel and you are going to
have to take a meter reading,and you are going to have to
clamp on and read a current. Sonow all it's going to, all we
need to do now is we have toobserve the the arc flash
(28:34):
requirements and then also beprepared for the shock hazard.
John Knoll (28:41):
100%. And I, you know, I'm not going to toot my
own horn. But this is the firstyear that we're going to start
introducing electrical shock,safety and arc flash safety into
the apprenticeship by MLMs. Ifound out actually they were
trying to carry had tried tointroduce them in 2015. But
(29:02):
because nobody knew about theconsequences of electrical
shock, then the street turnedthem down. Nobody wanted to
teach that shock was dangerousor how to avoid it. Because
nobody knew what was happening.
And I want to go back to that2013 Medical Review that our
government had paid for, atleast paid for the research for
and if we would have had thatbrought to our attention, we
(29:23):
would have had shocked safetyback in 2015. That would have
been accepted. Because as soonas I found out about this, and I
had sent my diagnosis toeverybody I knew it Nate. They
had approached Terry again andsaid yeah, let's put this in and
they didn't know.
Zack Hartle (29:42):
Then that's that's absolutely huge right getting
that information into theclassroom right into the
apprenticeship model right. Theycan talk about it and first year
they can really start addressingit in school, which hopefully
will lead to more journeymanbeing out in the field.
understanding the importance ofall that the potential hazards,
(30:03):
right? I mean, talking aboutbeing safe is one thing. But I
think the thing that people needto see is why do we need to
follow these steps, right? Whatare the potential consequences?
And that's something I alwayshad in the field was okay, when
you're doing this work, you needthis safety, this safety, this
safety? Well, but why, like,what's the, what's the reasoning
behind some of the stuff? So Ithink getting that into the
(30:25):
curriculum, like you say, intoour apprenticeship training,
there's it's going to be huge,right. And as you said, the
apprenticeship outline, which ispotentially getting updated in
the next, I don't know, probably18 months based on rumor, from
what I've heard. Yeah, it's alot more safety based on shock.
And arc flash is getting updatedin there. So I think that's a
(30:45):
huge step in the rightdirection.
Jason Cox (30:50):
I honestly, when I first started doing arc flash
awareness, I just had flashbacksof all the electrical jobs that
I had done, where we had donelive work, and and we were told
that we would do it live, and wedid everything in our power to
do it as safe as possible. Neveronce did we ever think at the
(31:10):
time that there was this risk ofarc flash, right. I back in the
day, I mean, the three of ushave done certain tasks in in
the electrical industry, wherewe were isolated and did not
make contact with an electricalcircuit, because we were on a
(31:31):
ladder, or we were just touchingthe insulation of the conductor,
and we were safe. But we had noidea of the possible side
effects. And the side effect ofbeing shocked in that old
attitude that we used to havethis macho, oh, you just took a
little poke that's nothing getback to work. Well, I mean,
that's just ignorance on oneveryone's part. And we now we
(31:55):
now need to become more informedand make some changes.
John Knoll (32:00):
Well, the scariest part is, is back in the 60s and
electricians handbook, it wastaught that you could test for
voltage 240 volts and lower withyour fingers. That's why I was
taught that to finger testmyself is because in the 60s,
the man that taught me or theman that taught him was taught
(32:20):
it was okay. You know, if thescariest part of reading that is
in electricians handbook that Iread, it even says that you can
taste for signal circus. So ifyou can't feel it through your
fingers, you can put it on yourtongue.
Jason Cox (32:34):
Yeah, and I've I've also, over the years, I've read
the, the testing methods withyour fingers and the different
voltage levels. And I've neverin my life, thought a way to
test a circuit was to use myhands, right? Obviously, on
(32:55):
every job site, everyapprentice, and every trades
person should have everyelectrician, let's not say
tradesperson every electricianshould have access to a
multimeter. And every workershould have at the very least
have Voltec or Voltec, whateverwe want to test her and and then
(33:17):
be able to rely on those things.
Those. I mean, that's, that'sjust like your safety boots now
or your safety glasses, you haveto have those tools.
Zack Hartle (33:27):
And more importantly, they need the
training and how to use thosetools effectively. Right, I
think we've all seen people notknow how to use a voltage tester
or a meter correctly. And thatcan be just as dangerous if not
more dangerous than not havingone right. So I think that
that's also a something thatneeds addressed is how to use
those simple tools, effectively
John Knoll (33:51):
100% I wouldn't, I wouldn't use or rely on a tic
test or ever in my life. As youguys mentioned, we're not even
taught we weren't taught how touse them correctly. The first
time that I learned that you hadto go and test a true circuit
and then go test your circuitwas again in the union. But I've
had so many times where youthose both texts, they like, you
(34:13):
know, I have a wire that wascompletely dead. But for some
reason, every time somebodyturns a switch on and off
probably through the neutralcurrent, it would light up. I
wouldn't trust a TIG tester. Andif I was using my voltage meters
today, I wouldn't use it withoutthe rubber insulating gloves and
the leather protectors one shotcan change your life.
Jason Cox (34:34):
Absolutely. And I mean, I unfortunately have two
former colleagues that havepassed away because directly and
indirectly because of electricalincidents. And I know to this
day when I when I see someonethat that in passing, I say
Okay, someone from industry Isay okay, well WorkSafe and it
(34:55):
sounds kind of corny, like,whatever old guy but it's like,
like there's two people I knowthat are no longer here because
of an accident. And, and I mean,that's, I mean, that's the
reality, we really, we really doneed to test and make sure and
shut stuff off. Zach and I weretalking to a former colleague
(35:17):
the other day, and he says, Weshut it all off, we there was no
way that we're going to doanything live because of arc
flash. And I mean, now with ourwith the shock hazard,
absolutely, that's the samething we have to we have to turn
things off. And if you are inany way doubting your testing
(35:38):
material, like the Voltec, or avoltmeter, right, you're
supposed to, like you said,first verify that you have a
working meter, verify that thetesting tool that you're using
is, is working. And verifyingthat something works is
something we rarely do. You canget those rubber gloves, but of
course, you have to test thoserubber gloves and have them
(35:59):
inspected as well, right? Imean, we can't, we can't forget
about this. Because yeah, justlike you said, that one shock
could be, it could be lifechanging.
John Knoll (36:15):
Yeah, it could could lead to you, not being able to
remember the name of your wife'scoworkers, then she gets
frustrated, and then you getangry. And the next thing you
know, you're getting divorced,you know, it could lead to a
suicide. The one of the scariestthings that I heard was a man
that I was talking to who alsohas these symptoms. He's he's
(36:37):
gone on and repaired. But he wasalways in charge of a lot of
electrical workers. And he said,I wish management would have
known because we had moresuicides throughout my career
than I would like to admit. Andmyself again, one of the biggest
symptoms of this is depressionand anxiety. And I've had my own
suicidal thoughts that I haveI've had to deal with. And
(36:59):
that's the problem. When theapex of this injury, it's number
one, you have memory issues, youmight not even remember that
list of symptoms that I rattledoff earlier, you might feel like
you're going crazy, there wasmultiple times where I didn't
know I don't know how to explainwhat I was feeling. But the only
way that I could stop the crazythat was in my head was going to
(37:24):
sound deprivation tanks, thosefloating tanks, they saved my
life, life more than I wouldlike to admit. Because it wasn't
even the pain at that time thatwas driving me to those
thoughts. It was the fact thatit felt like my brain was
scrambled. You just couldn'tfigure out what was happening.
(37:45):
I've recently been connectedwith a man who are a man's
family who, in 2017, he receiveda shock in Texas, I had a friend
on LinkedIn asked me if I couldconnect with them. Because this
man has gone into GreatDepression, he can't sleep, he
has chronic pain, he can't sitand he's self medicating on
(38:06):
alcohol every night just so hecan get to sleep. And I'm happy
that I did that have done theadvocacy I have. Because I've
come across more men than Iwould like to admit that have
that story since I've done it.
You know, this doesn't happen toplumbers, it doesn't happen to a
lot of other trades. You know,it's an occupational hazard for
(38:29):
us electrical shock and we needto address it, we need to, we
need to look at it like smokeinhalation and firefighters and
asbestos exposure in theconstruction industry. We need
to set guidelines because rightnow, there is no guidelines and
WCB for electrical injury. Theyrely on their medical experts.
And as I have said, theirmedical expert in my case forgot
(38:51):
about the literature. I filed acomplaint with the College of
Physicians and Surgeons on thatmedical expert and the College
of Physicians and Surgeons foundenough problems with her single
paragraph statement that she'sunder now under a two year
medical review with them.
Jason Cox (39:10):
Yeah, it sounds like there's a whole lot of I mean,
there. Yeah, in the big picture.
There's a lot going on there.
But let's kind of just bringthat back to, to the worker, the
electrician, the journeyman, Imean, many of us journey person.
Many of us that may have learnedsomething today. What's your
(39:32):
advice to that worker thathappens to get shocked today?
What should they do?
John Knoll (39:40):
Well, the first thing that you can do is report
it, report it file a report. Theeasiest thing you can do
depending on the company as yousend an email to your boss and
you'd BCC yourself and yourdoctor. But you have to hold on
to that you need that record orelse it gets extremely hard.
Jason Cox (39:57):
We definitely need to document up, right? Like, a lot
of times in the field, like, Iwrite down everything and you'll
cover your ass, like write downeverything, make sure it's
documented. And yeah, likeemails, for sure will timestamp
where that information is. Soyeah, you got to keep track of
that. And I'm just as guilty asmost people, I can only ever say
(40:24):
that I've reported one of myshocks. And of course, that
shock was was just an incidentwhere I was concerned. And I
yearly, during my physical,bring it up with my doctor just
to say I just would like to justcheck and see if everything's
okay. But I mean, so far knockon wood. Nothing's come back.
(40:44):
But I mean, the doctor might, mygeneral practitioner just might
not even be familiar with itwith these symptoms and this
injury. So
John Knoll (40:55):
most doctors aren't actually I'm lucky enough that
when I went to my company, Ibuilt homes for some very
predominant people in thehealthcare industry. And I've
been able to share a lot of thisresearch with the CEO of one of
the largest health boards in ourcountry, as well as another
doctor, that's a public figurein Edmonton. I had a very
(41:20):
fortunate experience as atradesman. And I made a lot of
connections. And I kind of thinkthat's one of the only reasons
I've survived as long. And, youknow, I'm not a religious man.
But I think maybe this is what Iwas meant to do was to be able
to bring awareness to thisinjury because, you know,
there's not many people that atthe age of 23, they get asked to
(41:44):
sit sit on the executive boardwith the owners of the largest
companies in Alberta. You know,at the age of 23, I had an equal
vote with the owners of thebiggest companies in our
industry, you know, all the wayup until when I was 27. I was
the youngest chapter, presidentof the Electrical Contractors
Association of Alberta'sEdmonton chapter. You know, I
(42:04):
stood up in front of all ofthose men 10 months and out of
the year, and I delivered, soentire chapter meetings for
them. You know, for a lot ofother guys, if they would have
gone to their employer and said,I had these injuries or, you
know, talked about this or goneto WCB. Those people might not
(42:25):
have believed them, they wouldhave been classed as a
malingerer. But for me, youknow, I was a very high achiever
early in my 20s. And peoplerecognized it, they saw the
drastic decline in my life, mymental health, and they believed
me. You know, one of the onlyreasons that I think I got as
far as I have is because when Istarted encountering as many
(42:48):
problems as I was in our system,I reached out to the board, and
they did their own internalinvestigation into this and they
found it true unjust, and theywrote a letter on my behalf to
the labor minister, requestingthat I get an IME through
Sunnybrook Hospital. Despitethat, I was never provided the
opportunity for an IME. But it'sone of the reasons I think I was
(43:12):
believed as much as I happen.
Zack Hartle (43:14):
And an IME is just for those of us who don't know,
John Knoll (43:19):
Independent Medical investigator exam, okay, so
essentially, if you when you gointo a compensation system,
they're going to send you to theown doctors for an independent
medical exam. They sent me totwo of their doctors,
psychologist and a neurologist,the psychologists had actually
bet against me getting adiagnosis through Dr. yassky, he
(43:42):
had called me a narcissist.
There was so much defamation inthat I me that I don't even want
to go into the details of theneurologists was a lot better.
He just stated that there'snothing to show but earlier on,
it was already proven or pulledby to them by Dr. yassky that
there is no scan that canactually identify this issue. I
(44:05):
was sent for an MRI and MRIshave different levels. There's a
level three a level five, and alevel seven. Level five is
extremely high, and it's thehighest that we have in Edmonton
and I had a full MRI on my spineand my brain and just like they
were told nothing came up. I hadnerve conduction studies I had
(44:29):
every single exam done on me andnothing showed signs of this and
that's exactly what's supposedto happen is there's only a
small percentage that willactually have scans that show
stuff
Zack Hartle (44:49):
that's tough. You use the use the word before and
it's the invisible injury in it.
I mean obviously makes it verydifficult to spot out. So this,
this and initiative of yours toraise awareness is it's huge,
right? And you've been doingthat now my understanding is
last year and a bit, you've beenkind of trying to raise this
awareness, mostly on LinkedIn.
(45:10):
But how's that going? What, whatdo you do? And what do you where
do you hope that this takes youin your advocacy for this
injury?
John Knoll (45:19):
Well, through LinkedIn, I had the opportunity
to raise awareness across theworld, I've connected with
people in England and Australiaand United States and in Canada,
in Iran, multiple countriesacross the world. And I've been
able to bring it to theirattention. I had approached the
Electrical ContractorsAssociation, ask them to ask Dr.
(45:41):
yassky to deliver the keynotespeech. And the President had
invited him to do so. And I gota lot of great responses after I
had members in the association.
Honestly, really think it was astupid idea to have Dr. yassky,
deliver that keynote speech. Andthen I had letters mailed to me
thinking that he did, becausethey're understanding that some
(46:05):
of the things they had gonethrough in their past or
experiencing currently are fromthis injury. I get to speak with
me and Terry Becker are going tothe I triple E Electrical Safety
workshop in Jacksonville,Florida, in 2022. And doing the
poster presentation, where I'llget to bring more awareness into
this injury. I've had interviewsdone with the Ontario electrical
(46:30):
League. I've had interviews donewith Grace technologies, I've
had two articles written andpublished in multiple countries
related to my story and thisinjury. And for me, I should
have a decision a final decisionby August 30, on this injury,
and that will, they will be 511days of fighting and advocating
(46:50):
for myself and others. And Idon't know about you, but I'm a
guy that likes to work, eventhough I can't physically do the
work I used to. It's been thehardest thing sitting on my butt
for 511 days and screaming at acomputer screen trying to bring
awareness to this injury.
Zack Hartle (47:13):
Well, it's it's obviously working. I mean, we
found out about you and yourknow your name as well known, I
think within the industry andthe work that you're doing so.
Jason Cox (47:25):
Yeah, thank you once again. Yeah, sorry. I slip.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you somuch. It's, you're you're
definitely I'm definitelychanging the way I conduct
myself with some electrical now,just from what you said, I was
so complacent. I had no idea.
But yeah, I mean, I neverthought that I would learn what
(47:46):
I learned in the last week here,after reading through a lot of
your information on LinkedIn. Sothank you so much.
John Knoll (47:58):
Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways of the UCA
keynote was the plea, literallya plea from Dr. yassky to
establish a Canadian electricalInjury Network. And because of
that, the association has nowtaking it has now taken it
national. And this is beingdiscussed within CECA the
Canadian Electrical ContractorsAssociation. Because the
(48:22):
scariest part is back in 2013.
This was relevant in Ontario.
But again, still guys would notreally hang on to this message.
I had emails from people thathad worked with the Electrical
Safety Authority of Ontario,saying, I can't believe this
hasn't gained traction yet. Soin 2021, when I started doing
(48:43):
what I did on LinkedIn, I hadpeople reaching out to me saying
we've known about this since2013. And I am ashamed to say
that it hasn't gained thetraction that it needed. Well,
thankfully, maybe it just tookone stubborn guy.
Jason Cox (48:59):
You know, it really did. It really did. I mean,
that's just the way it is. Yep.
Just deal with it. Come on, keepworking. Right, those attitudes
have got to change now. And Imean, Zack, and I would agree
that like learning never ends,you're continuously learning.
So. So I think a whole lot ofour industry is is I mean, this
is, this is important. You needyou need to, to to be aware of
(49:22):
the possible side effects ofbeing shocked. And I mean, those
shocks are low voltage shocks. Imean, I mean, if the doctor said
licking a battery of batteries,nine volts, right? I mean, so we
have to we have to do better forsure.
John Knoll (49:41):
Well, our system runs off of millivolts. And it
only takes Milli-amps to causeelectroporation and your cells.
Jason Cox (49:50):
Yeah, I mean, years ago, what was a GFI? What was an
AFCI? I mean, we are changing somaybe it's just clear Elliott's
not fast enough. So it lookslike the industry and society
and government and everythingneeds to adapt to these changes.
And I mean, my goodness, if ifit's already being addressed in
(50:11):
other provinces, that's veryfrustrating, because I mean, it
should be, it should be global.
John Knoll (50:18):
It shouldn't be. And I'm hoping what I'm doing is,
you know, working towards that.
And one thing that I want toreally note out there, because
manufacturers are a huge part ofbeing able to push safety too.
We have manufacturers, we havecontractors, there's a plethora
of people within our electricalindustry. And this should be a
time that they're jumping on tomandate GFCI protection. You
know, especially in residential,every single receptacle in
(50:40):
residential needs to be Arcfault protected, it's $7, more
for AFCI GFCI protection. So inmy opinion, we should be GFCI
protecting every receptacle inresidential, and honestly, every
20 amp receptacle in commercialand as well, you know, people
might look at GFCI receptaclesas a nuisance, but they're only
(51:03):
doing what they're supposed todo. If you have a GFCI. That's
not resetting. Well, yourinstallation needs to be looked
at because there's a potentialhazard for somebody there.
Jason Cox (51:18):
Well, people used to think these seat belts in cars
were a nuisance, and they'dmoved them to the side when they
sat on them. And I mean, thatbehavior has changed. So we
definitely need to change ourbehavior. And thanks for
bringing all that to us. I'velearned a lot, even today, and
after doing all my research onyour website. Zack, do you want
to finish this off?
Zack Hartle (51:39):
Yeah, so I just want to say you know, of course,
John, thank you so much forbeing here. If people want to
find out more, obviously, thisis a topic that is so deep and
there's so far you could go intoit. Where can people find you if
they'd like to reach out to you?
And where can people find outmore about this topic?
John Knoll (52:00):
Well, right now, a lot of the medical papers are
hard to find I have copies of alot of the medical papers given
to me by the practitioners thathadn't done them. But you can
look for me on LinkedIn, myLinkedIn is John Knoll, CME PEC,
first name John JOHN. Last NameKNOLL, or you can email me
(52:22):
directly atjohnknollpec@gmail.com, and I'm
happy to provide as much supportas I can for others out there,
because the scariest thing islooking for a diagnosis and not
being able to find it, at leastonce you understand the issues
(52:42):
that you're experiencing, youcan start working on them. It
wasn't until this year that Istarted getting put on
medication that helps.
Jason Cox (52:51):
And so obviously, I mean, if you're having symptoms,
I mean, also just talk to yourdoctor, right? Like you
mentioned, hey, if you'regetting a shock, contact your
your boss, your employerdocumented, send yourself an
email. And then I mean, go see adoctor so that they can help you
out with with these conditionsfor sure.
John Knoll (53:11):
You really need to again, talk to your doctor about
it, but make him aware of theSunnybrook Hospital and reach
out to them. Because your doctormight not do that he might not
believe you, you know, I beggeddoctors prior to send me for
MRIs, I now know they would bepointless. But every doctor that
I've seen, again, has called mehealthy as a horse. Even the man
(53:32):
that I connected with in Texas,it's the same story. He's gone
doctor, to doctor to doctor. Andthey all tell them there's
nothing wrong because they justdon't understand this injury. So
you need to educate your doctor,because they don't know about
this injury.
Jason Cox (53:46):
All right, that's a good piece of advice to maybe
work with work with your doctor.
Don't just depend on them, Iguess.
Zack Hartle (53:55):
And that's a really great point. Also just, you
know, getting involved with yourdoctor and bringing them some
information, right. And justknowing that in this battle, I
guess that you're not alone,right? There is other people out
there and resources, you justmight have to dig a little bit
to find those. That help, right.
And I we're gonna kind of wrapup here. I mean, as you can tell
(54:16):
from our conversation today forlistening, this is a topic that
can go on so, so deeply, right?
There's so much to know and somuch changing in the world of
you know, the long term effectsof electrical shock. So, if it
is something you're dealingwith, you know, reach out to
someone who looked around, gethelp. And as John mentioned, you
(54:37):
know, reach out to him onLinkedIn. Look on his LinkedIn
page. There's dozens ofresources there articles,
videos, things like that, thatare very informative on this
topic. As far as the podcastgoes, thank you so much yet
again for listening. If youhaven't yet, make sure you
subscribe to get those newepisodes. We come out with a new
(54:57):
one every second week. We'd loveto hear from you too if you have
suggestions for future shows youcan reach out on LinkedIn to
Jason or I or Facebook orInstagram @wattsthewordpodcast.
thanks so much for listeningkeep yourself safe out there and
if you can somebody else too
Hello and welcome to Watt's the Word a podcast
connecting the electrical tradeand industry members. I'm Zack
Hartle, along with Jason Cox.
We're having relevant andinformative conversations with
members of our industry. Beforewe get started today, I just
want to remind all of you.
Please subscribe to get futureepisodes wherever you listen to
podcasts, leave us a review, andmost importantly, share this
(00:22):
with a friend who you thinkmight be valuable. So Jason
Watt's the Word on the showtoday.
Jason Cox (00:29):
Well, Zack, our topic today is long term injuries
associated with electricalshock. And we're pleased to be
joined by John Knoll, masterelectrician and advocate for the
awareness of electrical injuriesresulting from shocks. So
welcome to the show, John.
John Knoll (00:49):
Thank you. Thanks for having me, guys.
Zack Hartle (00:50):
Yeah, thanks for being here. John. Really excited
about the topic today. Rightlong term injuries associated
with electrical shock, right.
All electricians kind of facethat hazard of shock almost
every day when we're out in thefield. But before we jump into
that, tell us a little bit aboutyourself and how you got into
the electrical industry itself.
John Knoll (01:13):
Oh, well, I started in construction in grade 10.
Every summer I go work in waterand sewer. And then right after
high school, I was asked by mybrother to go up to Fort
McMurray. And I did that for afew months until I was told a
phone call by my mother and shehad cancer. And that's when I
moved back to Edmonton to becloser with her and moved in
(01:34):
with one of my best friends. Andhis brother was an electrician.
And I just decided to get intothe trade that way. I started
with a company when I was 18.
And I lasted I was a year withthat company. And right away
again shocks happened. There wasreally no safety in that
company. We did ladder training.
(01:56):
We used to play games of turningthe light switches on guys, when
they were installing lights. Thepeople that were running the
crews were only first years andthree months into the trade I
was deemed a competent person.
And I got brought down into theparkade with very old journeyman
who again really didn't enforceelectrical safety. I was told
red block blue light and Istarted wiring parkades I did a
(02:17):
majority of the parkades forthat company. Again, using my
own vehicle taking companymaterials came to picking
company ladders across town notgetting paid for gas. About a
year into or nine months intothat company. They gave me a
finals work van. And I went andstarted doing finals. And again,
(02:38):
there was really no electricalsafety there. And then I started
roughing in homes and I went toschool. When I got back out of
school, I switched to anothercompany and started running my
own crews. I ran the residentialdivision for that company both
too close to my going into mysecond period of school, I
(03:01):
started renovating a grant andschool downtown, I did a third
of the renovations by myself,the bosses wouldn't come to
help. And I just kind of wentthat way with that company never
really working with a journeymanall the way up until I was a
fourth year I built ATBfinancial in Windermere by
myself. And then it was aroundthat time that the company had
(03:23):
laid off my best friend who wasrunning their residential
division now. And we kind of hadenough of it, we went to work
union. And that was the firsttime we actually were taught
Electrical Safety was working inthe union. And the focus was on
arc flush. It wasn't shocked.
And by that time, we had alreadybeen shocked probably 100 times
(03:45):
or more just low voltage shocks.
I had already experienced thequality of this injury, the
first real medical records, Ihave go back to 22,007 When I
was a second year, and I wasable to get over that by doing
yoga by doing a lot of exercise.
(04:05):
But I thought I had arthritisearly on at that age.
Jason Cox (04:09):
If we could go back just for a second. There's
there's you hit on a whole bunchand this word, so I'm going to
try this again. Sue qualia,right. Like this is a new word.
John Knoll (04:21):
Sequela
Jason Cox (04:22):
Sequela. Thank you and so so I looked that up and I
mean what that what is that wordthat that word is a condition
that it's a consequence of aprevious injury. So so what
you're you're kind of jumpinginto here we talked about two
things right off the bat. Sothere's consequences from from
you being shocked in the past.
So that's what of course what wewant to talk about today. And
(04:43):
then another big thing that thatyou've mentioned here right away
as you spent a large amount ofyour apprenticeship unsupervised
John Knoll (04:55):
the majority of my apprenticeship was unsupervised
I swear I only had journeymansupervise me three months out of
the entire four years I was anapprentice I was self teaching
myself most everything's mosteverything, even down to when I
was building the KFC Taco Bellon Ellerslie road I had was a
second or third year at thattime, and I had asked my bosses
(05:18):
to help me with the makeup airinterlock. I was told that was
just something you figured outon your own. So I did that my
entire career, I figuredeverything else
Jason Cox (05:27):
out looks like we have two two big issues here
today, our topic of electricalshock awareness. And then of
course, just the supervision ofan apprenticeship. We we
understand we know what therules are, but we know how
reality takes place. But yeah,it sounds like yeah, there was a
lot of let's just sayindependence there. That's
(05:50):
that's just, that's, I mean,every company is different. So
Wow.
John Knoll (05:55):
That was always an independent guy growing up. And
again, I was young, I didn'tknow any better. I was always
the guy that would do anything.
I was a hard worker, and quitefrankly, at the companies took
advantage of it. I was thecheapest form of labor they had.
And I could do the work thatother guides, you know,
couldn't. And I think the unsafeas part of electrical right now
(06:19):
is residential. And that's whereprimary primarily a lot of my
apprenticeship was isresidential until I opened up a
basically started the commercialdivision for a company that
started off in residential.
Jason Cox (06:35):
Yeah, that's like you said, you mentioned earlier that
the safety programs that youwere introduced to in industry
happened when you when you hitthe industrial side is clearly
as you know, a different beastwhen you go on to a massive
industrial site versus aresidential installation. Right.
(06:56):
Yeah, just totally differentsituation there. But I think I
think it comes down to not not,I understand your point,
totally, because I've worked inall three areas, or even more
areas of our trade than that.
But a lot of times it does comedown to the people you're
working with too, right? I'veI've worked with some very safe
(07:17):
people in residential,commercial and industrial. And
of course, there's also beenthose other lets other people
that that maybe aren't asinformed or careful for sure.
Can we talk about just some ofthe side effects that you've
that you've discovered? Itdoesn't have to be personally
(07:40):
but even in your research, whatare some of the side effects to
being shocked?
John Knoll (07:48):
Well, what I'm going to do is I'm going to pull up
medical review that ourgovernment actually developed.
So this is a review that wasdeveloped by two doctors that
work with WCB, Alberta. And itwas a summary of the literature
that they had done on a claimand instead of actually bringing
(08:09):
this to the awareness of thepublic, they wrote a small memo
for WCB and then published thisfinding, and it's a very good
article. So in table one of thearticle, there's a plethora of
symptoms that the injured,experienced and myself, I've
probably experienced 95% ofthese, so I'm just going to
quickly go through them thepsychological symptoms that you
(08:31):
can experience after a shock andas this article states can take
one to five plus years todevelop, so you'll prick your
finger today, and a half adecade later, you might start
experiencing this stuff. Thosepsychological symptoms or
depression, post traumaticstress disorder, insomnia,
nightmares, anxiety, flashbacks,fear of electricity,
(08:54):
electricity, frustration, hyperarousal, panic attacks, low self
esteem, guilt, moodiness, memoryloss or impairment, increased
temper, reduced attention spanper verbal learning. Now there's
also neurological symptoms whichinclude memory loss, numbness,
headache, chronic pain, weaknessper concentration. A couple that
(09:18):
I will explain peritheciaCinemaScope I can't pronounce
these quote rate, loss ofbalance gait at Stasia Stasia,
carpal tunnel, seizure disordersDisneys, poor coordination,
tinnitus, tremors, and then youalso have the physical symptoms
which are generalized pain,fatigue exhaustion, reduced
(09:41):
range of motion contractureperiphery theus muscle spasms,
twitches and aches, headaches,migraines, night sweats, fevers,
chills and joint stiffness. AndI'll just explain a couple of
the ones that I couldn'tpronounce quite well. So
perithecia is an abnormalsensation tip requires tingling
or pricking pins and needlescause from this injury you have
(10:04):
skin nope, which is temporaryloss of consciousness Cost
Consciousness caused by a fallenblood pressure, your gait x, x
tayshia, which is defined as thepresence of abnormal
uncoordinated movementmovements. skysea, which is pain
affecting the back hip and outerside of the leg caused by
(10:25):
compression on the spinal roof,new spinal nerve root and the
lower back. Tinnitus is when youexperienced ringing and other
noises in one or both of yourears, you have contracture,
which is a cord condition ofshortening and hardening of
muscles, tendons and othertissues. I've had guys told me,
this explains why I can't playthe guitar anymore. You also
(10:48):
have periapsis, which is severeitching of the skin. As you can
tell, there's quite a plethoraof symptoms that the injured
experience. And you might notexperience these all at once.
For me, these started developingvery early on in the trade, and
they've only got worse sincethey haven't increased in
(11:09):
severity since I stoppedperforming work in the trade and
obviously stop receiving shocks.
Jason Cox (11:17):
Yeah, well, I look.
So the list that you just gaveus. I mean, I read that review.
And yeah, we're looking at over40 symptoms. So back in the day
myself, I would have thought theconsequence of an electrical
shock would have been a burn. Weare not talking about burns.
Today, we're talking about 40other things. And as I read
(11:41):
through these articles, Istarted to question myself, I'm
like, geez, I wonder, right?
Because I have like, I've beenin the trade for over 25 years,
and I've taken several shocks,somewhere my own fault. Some of
course weren't. But you start toquestion some of those things
(12:01):
like, like, am I getting old doI hurt from from old age? Or
could this possibly be from fromtaking a poke at a certain time.
John Knoll (12:13):
And for me, I was only 20 years old when I made
the earliest metal medicalrecords that I found was a
chiropractor intake, where I hadindicated that I thought I had
arthritis, where I had diffusepain throughout my entire body.
I had headaches, migraines, Ihad fatigue, I had 90% of the
symptoms indicated on thatchiropractor intake, and that
(12:36):
was in 2007, I was 20 years old,I shouldn't have been feeling
like that I had scored a 25% outof 100 on my functional exam
that day. So that's the problemis this injury, you prick your
finger, and you develop thesymptoms later.
Zack Hartle (12:56):
I think that's the most alarming and thing that
also makes it maybe the mostdifficult to diagnosis,
everybody's body is going toreact a little bit differently,
the timeframe from shock tosymptoms is going to be a little
bit different for everybody. AndI that's part of why what the
what you're doing right now withraising this awareness and
(13:16):
coming and talking about yourexperience is so huge, right? I
mean, the more people that havethis conversation and get
involved in this topic with, youknow, whether it be through a
Contractors Association, orwhether it be just talking with
other people, it can make a hugedifference, right. And
John Knoll (13:34):
so, I wanted to touch base because you had
talked, you thought that shocksthe primary mechanism would be
the thermal Burke's. Theresearch actually states that
that's not the primarymechanism. The primary mechanism
is a process calledelectroporation, which is
commonly used in gene therapy.
So if you want to do genetherapy, you go to a doctor's
(13:55):
office, and they inject thefluid into the area that you
want to perform that therapy on.
And then they send a tinycurrent through your body, and
it opens up the pores in yourmembranes. And then it allows
that solution to get into yourcells and do what it's supposed
to do. But the problem is whenyou receive that shock in a
(14:17):
field, those pores open up inyour cell membranes, and there's
not a concentration ofcontrolled fluid around your
cells, you have a concentrationof a lot of sodium and other
things that are surroundingthose cells and the sodium gets
into those cells. And it candisrupt how those cells send
their signals and receive theirsignals. And depending on the
(14:39):
energy of the shock, highervoltage shocks having more
energy, those cells can dieinstantaneously. So you could
have instantaneous cell deathlike some people I've heard of
where they receive a highvoltage shock and they lose the
ability to move the entire leftside of their body. They can't
see out of the left eye Theycan't talk, they can't move
(15:02):
their arm, their legs are youkind of guys like me that get
lots of low voltage shocks andthose cells seal up. But as
they're sealing up, expends alot of energy and you get the
fatigue. And then like me, thosecells are susceptible,
susceptible to further damagefrom further injuries. And for
me, I was walking down Vegas andmy legs gave out it was the
(15:25):
worst pain I've ever felt in mylife. And that was due to a
decade of shock exposure.
Zack Hartle (15:32):
Maybe we could take just one second and talk about
what what do you mean when youtalk about the difference
between low voltage and highvoltage? What voltage ranges are
we talking about?
John Knoll (15:42):
Low voltage can be as low as 30 volts. Doctors
wouldn't like batteries. I'vebeen told the keynote speech my
diagnosing Doctor Doctor. Yes,he said he would not like a
battery. 30 volts is our safevoltage that we call in Canada.
I think it's either 30 or 50.
Ones 30 in the stage 150 Here, Ithink. But for me, most of my
(16:03):
shocks were 120 volts, thehighest shock I've ever received
was 347.
Zack Hartle (16:12):
Yeah, so for us, our codebook currently would be
30 to 750 volts going up to 1000volts in the new codebook. But
so yeah, that just wanted to,you know, everyone kind of has a
different opinion on what highvoltage low voltage means. So
that's, that's good.
John Knoll (16:30):
I'm glad you asked that. He said that though.
Because medically it was 1000volts. So I think we've finally
aligned with the medicaldefinition of low voltage which
is 1000 volts and under.
Zack Hartle (16:42):
Yeah, yeah, absolutely. After all the
shocks. And I've, I've heard abit of your story. I know that
when you left the Wii U and yourI think it might have even been
you and your friend, you guysstarted your own company. Or
maybe not with him, but and thenthere came a point where your
injury made it so that you couldno longer function and run that
company. Is that when youstarted to look into different
(17:05):
medical services that areavailable through the medical
system are started to look intoWCB? How did that kind of
journey look trying to get help?
John Knoll (17:16):
Well, the problem is, again, we had published or
our government had done theirresearch and their doctors had
published a medical review in2013. In 2017, we still had not
known about this medical review,I had no clue what was happening
and being the dumb stoicalburden that I was. I knew how to
fix this injury. Because I'vehad this before, doctors had
(17:37):
told me I was healthy as ahorse. So I wasn't going to
doctors. In 2017, I had justsold my company for up for a
very good price, six figures.
And I again decided this, nobodyknows what's happening. I know
how to fix this. And I went toyoga, I went to I did yoga,
every single day, I went to thechiropractor to three times a
(18:02):
week, I went for massages, youknow, one to two times a week.
And I got to a point where I wasback to feeling normal. But I
had started opening up asecurity company trying to know
that I couldn't do the heavytool work that maybe I could do
the light tool work. But at thattime, I didn't realize that the
(18:23):
effects were not only physical,they were neurological. You have
memory loss, you get frustrated.
You just can't do everythingthat you used to be able to do.
It wasn't actually until lastyear in 2020 that a member Terry
(18:45):
Becker of the ElectricalContractors Association had made
me aware of him going toAustralia and hearing about the
work that the SunnybrookHospital in Toronto was doing
through a doctor named Dr. Joelfish. And he told me this has to
be your problem. He had sent anemail to another CSA staff
(19:07):
member on the StandardsCommittee for electrical safety
and they had sent me a ton ofinformation back including the
information on Sunnybrook, butas well, the Alberta medical
review on electrical injury,it's titled titled long term
sequelae of electrical injury.
And at that moment, when I readthat, I finally admitted this
has to be my issue. And that'swhen I went to WCB for help. And
(19:31):
it's been the hardest, longestjourney of my life to get
through.
Jason Cox (19:40):
It really seems like you're you. I mean, I mean, we
don't know who was before you.
But recently it sounds likeyou're the one that's paving the
way and bringing this toeveryone's attention. Just for
for people that are listeningSunnybrook Hospital it's an
Ontario correct
John Knoll (20:00):
Yep, so Toronto, I'm diagnosed by Dr. Mark Gaskey. He
is rated number two in the worldand burns an electrical injury.
And he's the head of Research atSunnybrook Hospital. And he's
the director of the largest BurnWard, the busiest Burn Ward in
Canada. And that's where I gotmy diagnosis through. Despite
(20:20):
that, and having a secondopinion from the only other
hospital that performs researchand rehabilitation in this
injury, a Dr. Lee, who is aHarvard graduated surgeon, and
MIT graduated by an electricalengineer, my claims are still
going on to the Decision Reviewbody within WCB. They don't want
to admit this injury exists.
Once they admit it for me, theyhave to help everyone else. Part
(20:44):
of the men that are in the groupthat I formed, there's a man
that has had 60% burns acrosshis body from arc flash, but
he's not getting help for theshock. That muscle stiffness
that I talked about, in thesymptoms, he can't move his
arms. And they're not helpinghim. They say that he doesn't
(21:05):
need massage, he doesn't needchiropractor. And I'm not the
only one. When I actually firststarted my claim. I had help
getting it because there's asection 26 and WCB. Up until
this year is if you hadn't madea claim within two years, it
became a process to get in now.
(21:27):
It's only a one year. So youhave a one year to make a claim
in WCB on an injury that cantake five plus years to develop.
So when I got my first denialletter, they said oh, no, sorry,
you didn't. You didn't talkabout this within two years. And
they only actually cited half of20 seconds, section 26. They
(21:48):
completely violated one of theirmandates of providing complete
and full information. It wasn'tuntil that I contacted friends
in the industry, that I found anadvocate that would actually
help me and he read through thatdecision letter. And he
understood how poorly it waswritten. And he helped me get in
through section 26. But at thattime, I didn't understand why he
(22:11):
told me, You're never going toget help for this. You're never
going to get a diagnosis. You'renever going to go to Sunnybrook.
And now I finally understand.
Jason Cox (22:21):
Well, it sounds like like it's a it's a new phenomena
or injury. Not I mean, obviouslyfor the electricians, but even
just for the medical community.
And then the associated groupslike W WCB, as well. We've seen
over the last 20 years, just howour industries had to change. 20
years ago, we didn't talk aboutthis thing called Arc Flash.
(22:45):
Right? So arc flash is somethingnew to us. And industry has now
adopted and now recognized andstarting to make changes for
that. It looks like this is thenext step is that we need to get
more information out now aboutthe effects the possible health
(23:06):
effects from electrical shock.
And oh my goodness, I've putcountless batteries on my tongue
over the years. And if doctorsare telling me not to do that, I
probably won't do that anymore.
It probably wasn't a good ideain the first place. So so so
yeah, we need to move forward.
(23:26):
And we need to get theinformation out so good for you.
I mean, obviously, we know whyyou're motivated, but thankfully
you are going to be helpingother people.
John Knoll (23:38):
Yeah, it's funny that you're talking about arc
flash, because both theseinjuries started being
researched around the same time.
So Terry Becker, who's kind ofthe Electrical Contractors
Association safety person ofchoice, in 1996, is when arc
flash really started gettingrecognition. But at the same
time, that's when both theChicago electrical trauma
(23:59):
Research Institute and theSunnybrook Hospital started
doing their research into theinvisible effects of shock. It
was in 2013, when the ElectricalSafety Authority out of Ontario
was made aware of this, and itwas the work of Dr. yassky and
another patient. That's thereason that if you live in
(24:21):
Ontario, you can actually getyour doctor to fill out a
medical form and you can go toSunnybrook Hospital and get
help. It's the only place in thecountry that you can get help
and because healthcare isprovincial, the rest of the
country is Sol basically, youknow, I was very fortunate that
I could get the diagnosis I didbut it's because of the life
(24:43):
that I lived prior to my 30s Youknow, my early involvement in
the electrical trade and thefact that I opened the company
and I was successful and thenthat I had tried tried to
transition to soft jobs. So thatwas one of the key factors that
played into the medicalcommunity instantly saying it's
(25:04):
obvious this man has thisinjury. You know, it's we all
experience it differently. Butit's all kind of the same story.
Jason Cox (25:17):
The conditions would be different for every person.
And as far as a provincialmedical system versus a federal,
I mean, Canada, we've seen thatover the last year and a half
with COVID. It's frustratingthat, that there's different
rules for different provinces,and yet we're all the same.
We're all Canadians. So it isfrustrating. I guess moving
(25:39):
forward, we really took a we'rereally changed course in the
electrical industry with withthe rules regarding arc flash,
but we now have to also, I mean,obviously, with Arc Flash, we
had to have different work rulesbased on the energy levels,
(26:01):
right, it seems now that wereally need to start applying
those rules, and safe workpractices, not just for the
potential arc flash, right, butthe electrical shock hazard is
far. That electrical shock, thepercentage of you getting
shocked is far far far higherthan the electrical arc flash.
(26:22):
So we need to start making somechanges in how we operate as
tradespeople.
John Knoll (26:30):
Completely agree.
And I'm very thankful for theCSA Z, I think it's the Z462.
And the Z463 groups, TerryBecker's a member of them and
that entire community, we is thereason that we actually, for the
first time in 2021, have to haveelectrical safety programs
throughout Canada, you can't bean electrical employer. Now,
(26:51):
without having an electricalsafety program in place. It's
the first time in history. Andit is key. As if I could ever go
back and work in the electricaltrade on the tools, I would
never touch an energized circuitunless I had to. And I would be
wearing my let my rubberinsulated gloves with leather
protectors, I would never changea plug don't live again in my
(27:14):
life. Just knowing what canhappen to you, you know, prick
your finger one day, use theloose use the use of your legs,
years later.
Jason Cox (27:30):
Yeah, we, I mean, things have changed so much over
the years, just the whole ideaof we used to do everything hot.
And we were told this is how,how we were going to isolate and
make ourselves safe. However,when when arc flash became a
reality, then that definitelypromoted de energizing circuits.
(27:52):
You're right, there's, there'svery little excuse now for us to
be working on things live. And Iwas doing just a little bit of
research on on rubber gloves andleather protectors. And I mean,
you can have that those tools,which I mean that PPE for a
(28:13):
lower price than your safetyboots. So yeah, so I mean, yes,
you're going to have to go intoa panel and you are going to
have to take a meter reading,and you are going to have to
clamp on and read a current. Sonow all it's going to, all we
need to do now is we have toobserve the the arc flash
(28:34):
requirements and then also beprepared for the shock hazard.
John Knoll (28:41):
100%. And I, you know, I'm not going to toot my
own horn. But this is the firstyear that we're going to start
introducing electrical shock,safety and arc flash safety into
the apprenticeship by MLMs. Ifound out actually they were
trying to carry had tried tointroduce them in 2015. But
(29:02):
because nobody knew about theconsequences of electrical
shock, then the street turnedthem down. Nobody wanted to
teach that shock was dangerousor how to avoid it. Because
nobody knew what was happening.
And I want to go back to that2013 Medical Review that our
government had paid for, atleast paid for the research for
and if we would have had thatbrought to our attention, we
(29:23):
would have had shocked safetyback in 2015. That would have
been accepted. Because as soonas I found out about this, and I
had sent my diagnosis toeverybody I knew it Nate. They
had approached Terry again andsaid yeah, let's put this in and
they didn't know.
Zack Hartle (29:42):
Then that's that's absolutely huge right getting
that information into theclassroom right into the
apprenticeship model right. Theycan talk about it and first year
they can really start addressingit in school, which hopefully
will lead to more journeymanbeing out in the field.
understanding the importance ofall that the potential hazards,
(30:03):
right? I mean, talking aboutbeing safe is one thing. But I
think the thing that people needto see is why do we need to
follow these steps, right? Whatare the potential consequences?
And that's something I alwayshad in the field was okay, when
you're doing this work, you needthis safety, this safety, this
safety? Well, but why, like,what's the, what's the reasoning
behind some of the stuff? So Ithink getting that into the
(30:25):
curriculum, like you say, intoour apprenticeship training,
there's it's going to be huge,right. And as you said, the
apprenticeship outline, which ispotentially getting updated in
the next, I don't know, probably18 months based on rumor, from
what I've heard. Yeah, it's alot more safety based on shock.
And arc flash is getting updatedin there. So I think that's a
(30:45):
huge step in the rightdirection.
Jason Cox (30:50):
I honestly, when I first started doing arc flash
awareness, I just had flashbacksof all the electrical jobs that
I had done, where we had donelive work, and and we were told
that we would do it live, and wedid everything in our power to
do it as safe as possible. Neveronce did we ever think at the
(31:10):
time that there was this risk ofarc flash, right. I back in the
day, I mean, the three of ushave done certain tasks in in
the electrical industry, wherewe were isolated and did not
make contact with an electricalcircuit, because we were on a
(31:31):
ladder, or we were just touchingthe insulation of the conductor,
and we were safe. But we had noidea of the possible side
effects. And the side effect ofbeing shocked in that old
attitude that we used to havethis macho, oh, you just took a
little poke that's nothing getback to work. Well, I mean,
that's just ignorance on oneveryone's part. And we now we
(31:55):
now need to become more informedand make some changes.
John Knoll (32:00):
Well, the scariest part is, is back in the 60s and
electricians handbook, it wastaught that you could test for
voltage 240 volts and lower withyour fingers. That's why I was
taught that to finger testmyself is because in the 60s,
the man that taught me or theman that taught him was taught
(32:20):
it was okay. You know, if thescariest part of reading that is
in electricians handbook that Iread, it even says that you can
taste for signal circus. So ifyou can't feel it through your
fingers, you can put it on yourtongue.
Jason Cox (32:34):
Yeah, and I've I've also, over the years, I've read
the, the testing methods withyour fingers and the different
voltage levels. And I've neverin my life, thought a way to
test a circuit was to use myhands, right? Obviously, on
(32:55):
every job site, everyapprentice, and every trades
person should have everyelectrician, let's not say
tradesperson every electricianshould have access to a
multimeter. And every workershould have at the very least
have Voltec or Voltec, whateverwe want to test her and and then
(33:17):
be able to rely on those things.
Those. I mean, that's, that'sjust like your safety boots now
or your safety glasses, you haveto have those tools.
Zack Hartle (33:27):
And more importantly, they need the
training and how to use thosetools effectively. Right, I
think we've all seen people notknow how to use a voltage tester
or a meter correctly. And thatcan be just as dangerous if not
more dangerous than not havingone right. So I think that
that's also a something thatneeds addressed is how to use
those simple tools, effectively
John Knoll (33:51):
100% I wouldn't, I wouldn't use or rely on a tic
test or ever in my life. As youguys mentioned, we're not even
taught we weren't taught how touse them correctly. The first
time that I learned that you hadto go and test a true circuit
and then go test your circuitwas again in the union. But I've
had so many times where youthose both texts, they like, you
(34:13):
know, I have a wire that wascompletely dead. But for some
reason, every time somebodyturns a switch on and off
probably through the neutralcurrent, it would light up. I
wouldn't trust a TIG tester. Andif I was using my voltage meters
today, I wouldn't use it withoutthe rubber insulating gloves and
the leather protectors one shotcan change your life.
Jason Cox (34:34):
Absolutely. And I mean, I unfortunately have two
former colleagues that havepassed away because directly and
indirectly because of electricalincidents. And I know to this
day when I when I see someonethat that in passing, I say
Okay, someone from industry Isay okay, well WorkSafe and it
(34:55):
sounds kind of corny, like,whatever old guy but it's like,
like there's two people I knowthat are no longer here because
of an accident. And, and I mean,that's, I mean, that's the
reality, we really, we really doneed to test and make sure and
shut stuff off. Zach and I weretalking to a former colleague
(35:17):
the other day, and he says, Weshut it all off, we there was no
way that we're going to doanything live because of arc
flash. And I mean, now with ourwith the shock hazard,
absolutely, that's the samething we have to we have to turn
things off. And if you are inany way doubting your testing
(35:38):
material, like the Voltec, or avoltmeter, right, you're
supposed to, like you said,first verify that you have a
working meter, verify that thetesting tool that you're using
is, is working. And verifyingthat something works is
something we rarely do. You canget those rubber gloves, but of
course, you have to test thoserubber gloves and have them
(35:59):
inspected as well, right? Imean, we can't, we can't forget
about this. Because yeah, justlike you said, that one shock
could be, it could be lifechanging.
John Knoll (36:15):
Yeah, it could could lead to you, not being able to
remember the name of your wife'scoworkers, then she gets
frustrated, and then you getangry. And the next thing you
know, you're getting divorced,you know, it could lead to a
suicide. The one of the scariestthings that I heard was a man
that I was talking to who alsohas these symptoms. He's he's
(36:37):
gone on and repaired. But he wasalways in charge of a lot of
electrical workers. And he said,I wish management would have
known because we had moresuicides throughout my career
than I would like to admit. Andmyself again, one of the biggest
symptoms of this is depressionand anxiety. And I've had my own
suicidal thoughts that I haveI've had to deal with. And
(36:59):
that's the problem. When theapex of this injury, it's number
one, you have memory issues, youmight not even remember that
list of symptoms that I rattledoff earlier, you might feel like
you're going crazy, there wasmultiple times where I didn't
know I don't know how to explainwhat I was feeling. But the only
way that I could stop the crazythat was in my head was going to
(37:24):
sound deprivation tanks, thosefloating tanks, they saved my
life, life more than I wouldlike to admit. Because it wasn't
even the pain at that time thatwas driving me to those
thoughts. It was the fact thatit felt like my brain was
scrambled. You just couldn'tfigure out what was happening.
(37:45):
I've recently been connectedwith a man who are a man's
family who, in 2017, he receiveda shock in Texas, I had a friend
on LinkedIn asked me if I couldconnect with them. Because this
man has gone into GreatDepression, he can't sleep, he
has chronic pain, he can't sitand he's self medicating on
(38:06):
alcohol every night just so hecan get to sleep. And I'm happy
that I did that have done theadvocacy I have. Because I've
come across more men than Iwould like to admit that have
that story since I've done it.
You know, this doesn't happen toplumbers, it doesn't happen to a
lot of other trades. You know,it's an occupational hazard for
(38:29):
us electrical shock and we needto address it, we need to, we
need to look at it like smokeinhalation and firefighters and
asbestos exposure in theconstruction industry. We need
to set guidelines because rightnow, there is no guidelines and
WCB for electrical injury. Theyrely on their medical experts.
And as I have said, theirmedical expert in my case forgot
(38:51):
about the literature. I filed acomplaint with the College of
Physicians and Surgeons on thatmedical expert and the College
of Physicians and Surgeons foundenough problems with her single
paragraph statement that she'sunder now under a two year
medical review with them.
Jason Cox (39:10):
Yeah, it sounds like there's a whole lot of I mean,
there. Yeah, in the big picture.
There's a lot going on there.
But let's kind of just bringthat back to, to the worker, the
electrician, the journeyman, Imean, many of us journey person.
Many of us that may have learnedsomething today. What's your
(39:32):
advice to that worker thathappens to get shocked today?
What should they do?
John Knoll (39:40):
Well, the first thing that you can do is report
it, report it file a report. Theeasiest thing you can do
depending on the company as yousend an email to your boss and
you'd BCC yourself and yourdoctor. But you have to hold on
to that you need that record orelse it gets extremely hard.
Jason Cox (39:57):
We definitely need to document up, right? Like, a lot
of times in the field, like, Iwrite down everything and you'll
cover your ass, like write downeverything, make sure it's
documented. And yeah, likeemails, for sure will timestamp
where that information is. Soyeah, you got to keep track of
that. And I'm just as guilty asmost people, I can only ever say
(40:24):
that I've reported one of myshocks. And of course, that
shock was was just an incidentwhere I was concerned. And I
yearly, during my physical,bring it up with my doctor just
to say I just would like to justcheck and see if everything's
okay. But I mean, so far knockon wood. Nothing's come back.
(40:44):
But I mean, the doctor might, mygeneral practitioner just might
not even be familiar with itwith these symptoms and this
injury. So
John Knoll (40:55):
most doctors aren't actually I'm lucky enough that
when I went to my company, Ibuilt homes for some very
predominant people in thehealthcare industry. And I've
been able to share a lot of thisresearch with the CEO of one of
the largest health boards in ourcountry, as well as another
doctor, that's a public figurein Edmonton. I had a very
(41:20):
fortunate experience as atradesman. And I made a lot of
connections. And I kind of thinkthat's one of the only reasons
I've survived as long. And, youknow, I'm not a religious man.
But I think maybe this is what Iwas meant to do was to be able
to bring awareness to thisinjury because, you know,
there's not many people that atthe age of 23, they get asked to
(41:44):
sit sit on the executive boardwith the owners of the largest
companies in Alberta. You know,at the age of 23, I had an equal
vote with the owners of thebiggest companies in our
industry, you know, all the wayup until when I was 27. I was
the youngest chapter, presidentof the Electrical Contractors
Association of Alberta'sEdmonton chapter. You know, I
(42:04):
stood up in front of all ofthose men 10 months and out of
the year, and I delivered, soentire chapter meetings for
them. You know, for a lot ofother guys, if they would have
gone to their employer and said,I had these injuries or, you
know, talked about this or goneto WCB. Those people might not
(42:25):
have believed them, they wouldhave been classed as a
malingerer. But for me, youknow, I was a very high achiever
early in my 20s. And peoplerecognized it, they saw the
drastic decline in my life, mymental health, and they believed
me. You know, one of the onlyreasons that I think I got as
far as I have is because when Istarted encountering as many
(42:48):
problems as I was in our system,I reached out to the board, and
they did their own internalinvestigation into this and they
found it true unjust, and theywrote a letter on my behalf to
the labor minister, requestingthat I get an IME through
Sunnybrook Hospital. Despitethat, I was never provided the
opportunity for an IME. But it'sone of the reasons I think I was
(43:12):
believed as much as I happen.
Zack Hartle (43:14):
And an IME is just for those of us who don't know,
John Knoll (43:19):
Independent Medical investigator exam, okay, so
essentially, if you when you gointo a compensation system,
they're going to send you to theown doctors for an independent
medical exam. They sent me totwo of their doctors,
psychologist and a neurologist,the psychologists had actually
bet against me getting adiagnosis through Dr. yassky, he
(43:42):
had called me a narcissist.
There was so much defamation inthat I me that I don't even want
to go into the details of theneurologists was a lot better.
He just stated that there'snothing to show but earlier on,
it was already proven or pulledby to them by Dr. yassky that
there is no scan that canactually identify this issue. I
(44:05):
was sent for an MRI and MRIshave different levels. There's a
level three a level five, and alevel seven. Level five is
extremely high, and it's thehighest that we have in Edmonton
and I had a full MRI on my spineand my brain and just like they
were told nothing came up. I hadnerve conduction studies I had
(44:29):
every single exam done on me andnothing showed signs of this and
that's exactly what's supposedto happen is there's only a
small percentage that willactually have scans that show
stuff
Zack Hartle (44:49):
that's tough. You use the use the word before and
it's the invisible injury in it.
I mean obviously makes it verydifficult to spot out. So this,
this and initiative of yours toraise awareness is it's huge,
right? And you've been doingthat now my understanding is
last year and a bit, you've beenkind of trying to raise this
awareness, mostly on LinkedIn.
(45:10):
But how's that going? What, whatdo you do? And what do you where
do you hope that this takes youin your advocacy for this
injury?
John Knoll (45:19):
Well, through LinkedIn, I had the opportunity
to raise awareness across theworld, I've connected with
people in England and Australiaand United States and in Canada,
in Iran, multiple countriesacross the world. And I've been
able to bring it to theirattention. I had approached the
Electrical ContractorsAssociation, ask them to ask Dr.
(45:41):
yassky to deliver the keynotespeech. And the President had
invited him to do so. And I gota lot of great responses after I
had members in the association.
Honestly, really think it was astupid idea to have Dr. yassky,
deliver that keynote speech. Andthen I had letters mailed to me
thinking that he did, becausethey're understanding that some
(46:05):
of the things they had gonethrough in their past or
experiencing currently are fromthis injury. I get to speak with
me and Terry Becker are going tothe I triple E Electrical Safety
workshop in Jacksonville,Florida, in 2022. And doing the
poster presentation, where I'llget to bring more awareness into
this injury. I've had interviewsdone with the Ontario electrical
(46:30):
League. I've had interviews donewith Grace technologies, I've
had two articles written andpublished in multiple countries
related to my story and thisinjury. And for me, I should
have a decision a final decisionby August 30, on this injury,
and that will, they will be 511days of fighting and advocating
(46:50):
for myself and others. And Idon't know about you, but I'm a
guy that likes to work, eventhough I can't physically do the
work I used to. It's been thehardest thing sitting on my butt
for 511 days and screaming at acomputer screen trying to bring
awareness to this injury.
Zack Hartle (47:13):
Well, it's it's obviously working. I mean, we
found out about you and yourknow your name as well known, I
think within the industry andthe work that you're doing so.
Jason Cox (47:25):
Yeah, thank you once again. Yeah, sorry. I slip.
Yeah. Thank you. Thank you somuch. It's, you're you're
definitely I'm definitelychanging the way I conduct
myself with some electrical now,just from what you said, I was
so complacent. I had no idea.
But yeah, I mean, I neverthought that I would learn what
(47:46):
I learned in the last week here,after reading through a lot of
your information on LinkedIn. Sothank you so much.
John Knoll (47:58):
Yeah, one of the biggest takeaways of the UCA
keynote was the plea, literallya plea from Dr. yassky to
establish a Canadian electricalInjury Network. And because of
that, the association has nowtaking it has now taken it
national. And this is beingdiscussed within CECA the
Canadian Electrical ContractorsAssociation. Because the
(48:22):
scariest part is back in 2013.
This was relevant in Ontario.
But again, still guys would notreally hang on to this message.
I had emails from people thathad worked with the Electrical
Safety Authority of Ontario,saying, I can't believe this
hasn't gained traction yet. Soin 2021, when I started doing
(48:43):
what I did on LinkedIn, I hadpeople reaching out to me saying
we've known about this since2013. And I am ashamed to say
that it hasn't gained thetraction that it needed. Well,
thankfully, maybe it just tookone stubborn guy.
Jason Cox (48:59):
You know, it really did. It really did. I mean,
that's just the way it is. Yep.
Just deal with it. Come on, keepworking. Right, those attitudes
have got to change now. And Imean, Zack, and I would agree
that like learning never ends,you're continuously learning.
So. So I think a whole lot ofour industry is is I mean, this
is, this is important. You needyou need to, to to be aware of
(49:22):
the possible side effects ofbeing shocked. And I mean, those
shocks are low voltage shocks. Imean, I mean, if the doctor said
licking a battery of batteries,nine volts, right? I mean, so we
have to we have to do better forsure.
John Knoll (49:41):
Well, our system runs off of millivolts. And it
only takes Milli-amps to causeelectroporation and your cells.
Jason Cox (49:50):
Yeah, I mean, years ago, what was a GFI? What was an
AFCI? I mean, we are changing somaybe it's just clear Elliott's
not fast enough. So it lookslike the industry and society
and government and everythingneeds to adapt to these changes.
And I mean, my goodness, if ifit's already being addressed in
(50:11):
other provinces, that's veryfrustrating, because I mean, it
should be, it should be global.
John Knoll (50:18):
It shouldn't be. And I'm hoping what I'm doing is,
you know, working towards that.
And one thing that I want toreally note out there, because
manufacturers are a huge part ofbeing able to push safety too.
We have manufacturers, we havecontractors, there's a plethora
of people within our electricalindustry. And this should be a
time that they're jumping on tomandate GFCI protection. You
know, especially in residential,every single receptacle in
(50:40):
residential needs to be Arcfault protected, it's $7, more
for AFCI GFCI protection. So inmy opinion, we should be GFCI
protecting every receptacle inresidential, and honestly, every
20 amp receptacle in commercialand as well, you know, people
might look at GFCI receptaclesas a nuisance, but they're only
(51:03):
doing what they're supposed todo. If you have a GFCI. That's
not resetting. Well, yourinstallation needs to be looked
at because there's a potentialhazard for somebody there.
Jason Cox (51:18):
Well, people used to think these seat belts in cars
were a nuisance, and they'dmoved them to the side when they
sat on them. And I mean, thatbehavior has changed. So we
definitely need to change ourbehavior. And thanks for
bringing all that to us. I'velearned a lot, even today, and
after doing all my research onyour website. Zack, do you want
to finish this off?
Zack Hartle (51:39):
Yeah, so I just want to say you know, of course,
John, thank you so much forbeing here. If people want to
find out more, obviously, thisis a topic that is so deep and
there's so far you could go intoit. Where can people find you if
they'd like to reach out to you?
And where can people find outmore about this topic?
John Knoll (52:00):
Well, right now, a lot of the medical papers are
hard to find I have copies of alot of the medical papers given
to me by the practitioners thathadn't done them. But you can
look for me on LinkedIn, myLinkedIn is John Knoll, CME PEC,
first name John JOHN. Last NameKNOLL, or you can email me
(52:22):
directly atjohnknollpec@gmail.com, and I'm
happy to provide as much supportas I can for others out there,
because the scariest thing islooking for a diagnosis and not
being able to find it, at leastonce you understand the issues
(52:42):
that you're experiencing, youcan start working on them. It
wasn't until this year that Istarted getting put on
medication that helps.
Jason Cox (52:51):
And so obviously, I mean, if you're having symptoms,
I mean, also just talk to yourdoctor, right? Like you
mentioned, hey, if you'regetting a shock, contact your
your boss, your employerdocumented, send yourself an
email. And then I mean, go see adoctor so that they can help you
out with with these conditionsfor sure.
John Knoll (53:11):
You really need to again, talk to your doctor about
it, but make him aware of theSunnybrook Hospital and reach
out to them. Because your doctormight not do that he might not
believe you, you know, I beggeddoctors prior to send me for
MRIs, I now know they would bepointless. But every doctor that
I've seen, again, has called mehealthy as a horse. Even the man
(53:32):
that I connected with in Texas,it's the same story. He's gone
doctor, to doctor to doctor. Andthey all tell them there's
nothing wrong because they justdon't understand this injury. So
you need to educate your doctor,because they don't know about
this injury.
Jason Cox (53:46):
All right, that's a good piece of advice to maybe
work with work with your doctor.
Don't just depend on them, Iguess.
Zack Hartle (53:55):
And that's a really great point. Also just, you
know, getting involved with yourdoctor and bringing them some
information, right. And justknowing that in this battle, I
guess that you're not alone,right? There is other people out
there and resources, you justmight have to dig a little bit
to find those. That help, right.
And I we're gonna kind of wrapup here. I mean, as you can tell
(54:16):
from our conversation today forlistening, this is a topic that
can go on so, so deeply, right?
There's so much to know and somuch changing in the world of
you know, the long term effectsof electrical shock. So, if it
is something you're dealingwith, you know, reach out to
someone who looked around, gethelp. And as John mentioned, you
(54:37):
know, reach out to him onLinkedIn. Look on his LinkedIn
page. There's dozens ofresources there articles,
videos, things like that, thatare very informative on this
topic. As far as the podcastgoes, thank you so much yet
again for listening. If youhaven't yet, make sure you
subscribe to get those newepisodes. We come out with a new
(54:57):
one every second week. We'd loveto hear from you too if you have
suggestions for future shows youcan reach out on LinkedIn to
Jason or I or Facebook orInstagram @wattsthewordpodcast.
thanks so much for listeningkeep yourself safe out there and
if you can somebody else too
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