July 30, 2025 • 42 mins
In this episode of We Built This Brand, Joshua Kopac shares his unique journey, starting with being expelled from high school at 13 for hacking and building a million-dollar business by 16. After a life-changing car accident, he shifted his mindset and approach. Now the founder of Be Kept Up, a digital marketing agency focused on affiliate marketing, Joshua talks about the power of adaptability, building systems, and how AI is transforming business. His story is one of resilience, gratitude, and preparing for the future.
Highlights:
(00:00) Introduction and Guest Welcome
(00:45) Joshua's Early Entrepreneurial Journey
(03:40) High School Challenges and Early Success
(05:04) First Major Business Success
(10:15) Founding Be Kept Up
(12:36) The Philosophy Behind Be Kept Up
(15:03) Navigating Life's Challenges
(22:03) Moment of Validation in Business
(23:14) The Importance of Gratitude in Sales
(29:50) The Impact of AI on Various Industries
(38:59) Admiring Tesla's Entrepreneurial Journey
(41:13) Conclusion and Contact Information
Links:
LinkedIn: Joshua Kopac: https://www.linkedin.com/in/joshuakopac/
Website: bekeptup.com
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:06):
And welcome back to We Built This Brand.
I'm your host, Chris Hill, and today with
me is Joshua Kak, the founder of Be Kept Up.
Joshua, thank you for joining me today.
Thanks for having me on Chris.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I'm excited to talk to you.
Um, you've got quite the interesting background in entrepreneurship
and, um, you know, that ultimately led you to where you're at today.
(00:26):
And, you know, as we built this brand, we like to talk to
people that aren't just marketers, aren't just, um, you
know, in that world, but are also entrepreneurs and founders.
And, um, I love talking about your journey to becoming,
you know, who you are today as well as the business itself.
So.
Would just love to start by diving in and, and
learning a little bit about your background.
When did you first become an entrepreneur?
(00:48):
So, I'd say in about 2006, 2007.
Um, so I, I owned various websites throughout the time.
Randomly the internet was up and coming.
I was super interested in what was going on, how
to keep up with it, uh, no pun intended there.
Um, and essentially, you know, I was approaching the age of getting a job.
(01:08):
And I was asking myself, all right, well what do I wanna do with myself?
And the answer was, I didn't wanna bag groceries.
So I was a member of a lot of get paid two websites.
So get paid two websites, essentially.
Uh, you can complete offers in exchange for points or cash.
Cash, cash out.
And that's how I funded my first business.
So I, I looked at one, there was, uh, you know, treasure
(01:30):
Trooper and Cash Crate and SWAT cash back in the day.
And I was a member of all three.
And I would generate money again, probably against their terms of service.
I was too young.
Um, but nonetheless, I got the checks in the mail and I, instead
of there doing it, it, why can't I, I knew nothing about.
Coding knew nothing about operating a website, knew nothing about
how to do it, but I said, if they're doing it, I'm gonna do it.
(01:52):
You know, that's, that's a long, long story.
Somewhat shortened, but it just came down to I didn't wanna bag,
bag groceries and I wanted to have a means and, and learn, and
it was the age of the internet and things were expanding rapidly.
Uh, you know, post a OL once we actually had some DSL or some broadband
internet and things were just shaking off really quickly, much like.
(02:15):
It seems it's happening today.
Yeah.
That's, that's fascinating.
So 2006, 2007.
Um, and you said the age of getting a job, so I, I
assume when you say that, you're not saying like after
college, you're saying starting your first job, right?
Yep.
I was, I was in high school.
I think I was 13 when I first started.
(02:37):
So, you know, it got to the point where I would take naps during high school
and come home and, and work through the night, and I just was figuring it out.
But it was a lot of fun.
Very different path.
It was hard to relate to a lot of people in different ways from.
What I was able to experience and what I was able to
do, but nonetheless, that, that led into a wide variety
(02:59):
of, you know, different pursuits and different things.
Yeah, I can imagine it would because, you know, getting
that experience, that young, being able to do those things.
I mean, I remember trying to start, you know,
doing web design when I was in high school and.
It was difficult, um, without having any guidance and really not a lot of
places, I mean, YouTube didn't exist when I was first trying to do this.
(03:21):
So like, figuring it out on your own was hard.
Um, and your high school teacher who could teach you
how to do H TM L couldn't teach you to do very much.
Um, so yeah, that stuff was difficult.
So the fact that you were able to do it at a young age is impressive.
Thanks.
And, you know, it, it, it sort of came to fruition in a strange way.
So, 14 days into high school, I was expelled.
(03:44):
Oh dang.
And I was expelled, you know, not for fighting
in the hallways or doing anything like that.
I was expelled for hacking the school.
Okay.
Uh, you know, it was a time where network security and
operational security was in a very different place, and it
was coming to fruition with the ever-changing technology.
(04:04):
Um, so I was expelled 14 days in for, for hacking the school.
And, you know, they put me in an, uh, the administrator's office.
I was truthful with them, yes, I did this
and here's how I did it, and yada, yada yada.
So I was expelled, I think, for three months, but that was sort of the catalyst
for me of, do I want to use this for good or do I wanna use this for bad?
(04:25):
And that was the turning point for me where I had to do a lot
of introspection and self journeying and understand, uh, I
could do that, but this isn't gonna go very well for anybody.
Yeah, I'm sure your parents weren't too pleased with that.
No, there's, uh, I'll, I'll withhold some comments
there, but I, I owe them a vacation or two.
(04:48):
I would imagine.
So I, yeah, I can, I can relate to that a little bit so I understand.
Um, but yeah, that's, that, that is crazy.
So you get, you get outta high school then when, well, I
guess when did your first business really, um, take off?
Like when did you get recognized for, um,
for all this hard work you were putting in?
(05:08):
I
think 2008, so 2008, that's when we were a little bit more public.
I think we did just over a million dollars revenue that year.
We didn't know what the hell we were doing.
We didn't, we didn't know about bookkeeping and accounting and
AR and AP and taxes and, uh, you know, all it was fun money for
us and one of the greatest lessons to have that happen at 14.
(05:33):
Sure.
I gave my dad a heart attack.
Figuratively, not really.
Um.
But you know, it was, it was one of those things where you just had to learn.
It was sort of like, alright, your back's against the
wall, here's everything that's going on, figure it out.
Um, but you know, to answer your question, 2008 was when we were more public.
You know, we were a group of 14 and 15 and
(05:55):
16 year olds having a booth at a trade show.
And, you know, we had a cigar roller in New York
City, for example, we handed out 4,000 cigars.
We couldn't even legally smoke them.
I was about to say, could you smoke those,
you know, weird, weird times in many ways, but in other ways it was,
it was freeing and it's allowed me to not take things too seriously.
(06:19):
Um, you know, from those lessons.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that is fascinating too.
'cause like that's, I can't imagine having
a cigar roller at my, my event under 18.
I was such a goody two shoe for the most part.
Um, that sounds, sounds awesome though.
Um, but that's, yeah.
So, so you, you get into that, you, you start growing this business
(06:41):
starts going, like, how long was it until you were like, I'm done.
I mean, did I assume you graduated high school
and got your, at least your high school diploma?
Correct.
I did, I,
I Grit my teeth.
I, I thank one of my teachers, my marketing
teacher for, you know, telling me to stick with it.
Like, you're already here, don't worry about it.
Just put in the extra few months and you do whatever you need.
(07:04):
So that was, you know, really, really grateful
for, for Mark for helping me with that.
But, um, college was an interesting discussion too.
I was the first of four to not go.
In my family, you know, my parents were not pleased.
That was the model that was, that still is the model, very much so in
in the United States, at least of you need to get higher education.
(07:24):
And my perspective was, no, I want experience.
I don't want to go a quarter million dollars in debt.
I want experience.
I already have relationships.
Let me leverage those and continue learning and doing.
Yeah, I think that's wise.
Um.
I mean, one of our biggest clients, um, for my business is
actually a, um, a company started by two founders that neither of
(07:47):
which have college degrees and they're excellent in their field.
They're well known, and they'll, they'll proudly tell you neither of them
have college degrees and they love to gimme crap about having an MBA.
So.
Yeah, I, I totally feel that
we, we all have our different paths though.
We go, we go back to school for different reasons.
I went back because, um, I went back for my master's in
(08:09):
part because I wanted to, I realized my first startup
didn't go well, and it was like, I need to learn more.
And so I went back.
But other people learned different ways and you clearly were at a
point where you didn't need it from the beginning, and that's awesome.
So.
So, where have you grown since then?
Since, uh, since high school, since doing all this?
It looks like you've, you've done quite a bit.
So tell me, tell me, kinda like, you don't have to go
(08:32):
through every up and down, but where have you ended up today?
Yeah, so kind of going through the navigation,
you know, that I'll, I'll start here.
It was really difficult having that experience in high school, of
going from having what felt like everything and shaping your identity.
So you're already shaping your identity as a teenager.
You know, uh, going through, just growing up and
(08:55):
I thought that was my identity was the business.
And to have it, the rug sort of pulled out from you and
have to reclaim your identity while you're already trying
to create an identity that was a, a really, uh, difficult.
Portion of life, per se, of, of trying to get back up.
So, you know, I stayed in the industry.
Um, I've done everything from monetizing, uh, you know, digital
(09:19):
traffic, to running FinTech blogs, to affiliate networks.
Uh, most recently I was at Protege where I helped 'em drive
about $75 million in sales for my personal book, saw a
acquisition to Great Hill Partners for over a billion dollars.
And that led into a very, once again, unique circumstance.
I was in an auto accident and, uh, sort of had to recover.
(09:43):
So I had a traumatic brain injury.
Um, I had slipped discs and herniated discs in
my neck, uh, among some other difficult things.
And that sort of forced me to slow down and say, well,
this isn't sustainable, this way of doing things.
You can do it, that's great, but if you're here for much longer,
you're either gonna cease to exist or you're gonna burn out.
(10:03):
And, you know, I felt that was God's way of telling me, uh, you know,
forcing a redirection per se, of you're not gonna listen elsewise.
Uh, so, you know, here's your circumstance.
Figure it out.
So that led into creating a founding Be kept up.
We're, um, founder and CEO.
Uh, we're a digital marketing agency at the
core, and, uh, we specialize in affiliate.
(10:26):
So affiliate meaning we're an arbitrage.
Between advertiser and publisher.
So let's say we have a publisher, which could be Forbes,
who's writing content, and they're writing content about
an advertiser of ours, let's just say a budgeting app.
Um, so we're basically working with the advertiser.
We collect a flat commission for every customer that signs
(10:48):
up for said product, and we pass on a portion of that
to the publisher who's actually doing the advertising.
Okay.
Interesting.
So you're, you're then, that, that's what you mean by affiliate then.
So how does that work on your end?
Because I, I'm not too familiar with affiliate marketing and
I, I'd kinda like to dig into that just a little bit, um,
for the business marketing nerdy side of the podcast here.
(11:12):
Um, so you said publisher, you said they get
commissioned, but what, what work are you doing?
Are you putting it out on websites and in apps and doing the display ads?
Like, how does that work for you?
So there's a, there's a couple things we do.
So one is we're securing the deal with the advertiser.
So what are you looking for?
What's your product?
What's your payment model?
(11:33):
Are you paying on a sale?
Are you paying on a subscription?
Are you paying on a free trial?
Um, so nailing those details down with the advertiser
first, and then finding the actual publisher source.
So I'm just leveraging, essentially 18 years in
the industry with a lot of these relationships.
But you know, for example, Forbes will go and write content.
We'll get it approved by the advertiser.
Make sure that you know, the talking points are
(11:55):
correct or the branding is correct, what have you.
Um, and we're playing the middleman there.
So we're leveraging relationships we have on both ends that the other doesn't.
So the advertiser doesn't know a Forbes or a CNN and the Forbes
and the CNN doesn't know his particular bank or budgeting app.
So we're just leveraging those relationships and connecting pipes essentially.
(12:19):
Nice.
Nice.
And when you founded this business, you said be kept up.
Like, you know, I always find that, you know, when you're
starting a new business, like, you know, the name is very
intrinsic to what you're trying to communicate with the brand.
So where did that come from and and why is it be kept up?
So I was big into, uh, Kundalini yoga, meditation, and actually
(12:40):
I'm a certified teacher, uh, from, from many years ago.
So that's something that I did.
Uh.
After politics, which is another story.
Um.
In order to just calm down and sort of get
out of that energy field and find my center.
Um, but there was a saying in that lineage of
yoga, which was keep up and you'll be kept up.
(13:02):
And this name to me was a reminder during my auto accident and
everything that I was and still am enduring from that of, to
keep up to, you know, hold myself, uh, to a certain standard,
hold my business to a certain standard and make sure that.
I'm keeping up.
So for me, it's a mantra, it's a reminder.
(13:23):
Uh, it's something that when I'm wearing the logo or see the logo, it sort of
just puts that mental projection for me of keep up, keep up, keep up, keep up.
Not unhealthily, uh, but just setting that standard and
having that standard for, for myself, for my family,
for the business, for clients, and what have you.
That's, that's really neat.
(13:44):
Um, so what is Kun, you said Kalinga yoga?
Is that, did I say that correctly?
I don't think I did.
Kundalini was the, the Kundalini, yeah, I definitely butchered that.
But tell me, tell me what, what exactly is that kind of yoga?
Yeah, so it's a complete system of yoga.
So it has everything from the poses or the CREs.
(14:06):
So the Cs are just the, the sets, um, Pran, which is breath.
Mantra, which can be, you know, chanting, uh, mudras finger positions.
Um, so it involved, you know, all of the other pieces of yoga per se.
And you could say it's, you know, the, the whole pizza pie.
There's no wrong way to do it.
It was just something that I felt called to, it was something that I felt, um,
(14:29):
that resonated with me and it helped me through a lot of life's transitions.
Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, especially after the car accident and everything like that, I'm sure.
Just that physical activity.
I've had some physical injuries myself, and
I know how hard it can be to overcome that.
You know, I, I would imagine that that's probably very helpful for that too.
Stretching and all those things that yoga entails, especially core muscles.
(14:53):
You don't realize how important core muscles are until you lose a function.
Oh yeah.
That's neat.
Um.
So, yeah.
So then, um, you, you also mentioned, and, and I think this is
prob, I can imagine this is a big challenge, like coming from, um.
Co coming from like this early age into now, like you, you've
(15:16):
lived a lot of careers in the time that most people are just
getting outta college and just getting started with their career.
Um, and maybe even more than most people will ever experience to a degree.
Um, but you mentioned this l idea of losing your
identity, having to recreate or creating your identity.
Like how has.
I don't wanna leave it so vague as just to say how has that journey been?
(15:38):
But I'm just curious, like what have you
learned along the way of all those ins and outs?
Yeah, I think being adaptable is probably the largest one.
Things are gonna change on a dime.
You know, there's people getting married, there's people
getting divorced, there's people, uh, you know, having children.
Whatever it is, it's, we just have to adapt.
(15:58):
So I think that was the largest lesson and still is.
I've by no means mastered it.
I'm still human and still experiencing, know life's challenges per
se, but I'd say being adaptable and being moldable, especially in this
day and age of ai and how quickly everything's changing on a dime.
I don't think even myself included, we don't realize how quickly
(16:21):
everything is changing in the world and what that's going to mean.
You know, you look at the industrial revolution.
With how quickly everything changed, and that was years, you
know, if not decades, this is happening where, you know, we're
having LLMs large language models for AI literally on track and,
and knowing more than encyclopedias at a, at a moment's notice.
(16:44):
So it's, it's very interesting the way things are are going.
But I'd say it's even more important in this day and age
with the dawning of ai, with the age of AI to be adaptable.
To be moldable.
I, I can't even fathom that right now.
I dunno.
It's, it's really, it's kept me up at night just
trying to understand where things are going.
(17:05):
Hmm.
Yeah, it's, it, yeah.
I mean, you, you bring up AI and all that.
We could probably talk for hours about that.
There's so much going on in that world and so much
that's changing and we'll probably come back to that.
But, you know, going through that, being
adaptable, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
Um, for where you've been in what you, what you're
even, you know, learning and going through today.
(17:27):
Right.
But like, has there been anything, like what has
kept you anchored or rooted during this time?
Has it been just the yoga or are there other things that kind of help
you stay focused as you go through these times and help you be adaptable?
Yeah.
Yoga for sure.
My wife, uh, family.
And I think drive, just having that, having that drive, that's something that
(17:48):
even in my darkest hours hasn't disappeared, which I'm really grateful for.
Um, I think that's what's, that's what's kept me going.
That's great.
That's great.
Well, let's dive in now and talk a little bit more about,
be kept up talking about the affiliate side of things.
Um, how long, when, when did you find found be kept up by the way?
So this was 2023, I believe, early 2023.
(18:15):
I was experiencing a leave taking time off of work for FMLA
and sort of understanding what my next options were while.
Trying to balance my health and it was difficult to
work a full-time job while going to appointments.
I think I went to 150 appointments in a single year,
so you're talking, you know, almost every other day.
Um, which was pretty insane.
(18:37):
So, you know, that, that was definitely interesting.
Um, but for me it was about, well, what lifestyle do I want
to create and what can I create given these circumstances?
Where it's not gonna add additional undue stress to
myself and my family, but create more of a means.
So for me it was, okay, I have these relationships, I have the wherewithal.
(18:58):
This is an internet business.
There's limited overhead and let me just try this.
If it doesn't work out, it know I'll return back to the corporate world.
But it was a time to take self ownership and really
rise up given that I had the confidence from.
From protege and I'm helping harbor and con, uh, confidence
in myself and giving me the grounds and the support to, to
(19:19):
really thrive and take off and be exposed to so much there.
They, uh, sort of dropped me in a bucket in many
regards and I figured had to figure a lot of things out.
Um, and I'm really grateful for that because they exposed me to so much,
you know, whether that's the corporate world, whether that's interacting
with the C-suite, whether that's documentations, processes, uh, you name it.
(19:40):
But that was, that was a really great stepping stone
for me and I'm, you know, really grateful for them.
That's, that's great.
Um.
So you mentioned, you mentioned protege and you were VP of sales over there.
I find sales roles are always like, they're gonna
be your proving ground for what you can do next.
Um, you know, and learning, learning the, the industry
(20:01):
and figuring out, you know, things within that.
What did you, what did you learn during your time
there that's helped you with getting be kept up?
Started?
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
It's probably the largest one.
Especially in a sales role where you have people chirping in
your ears or you have goals and you put pressure on yourself,
(20:22):
or there's pressure from others, or it can be competitive,
uh, you know, just realizing it's a marathon, not a sprint.
And I think if you're doing the work and you're
not stressing about it, good things are gonna come.
You know, I, I think there's a couple approaches in sales.
There's the, there's the trust mentality and there's the lack mentality.
They both can get you to the same place, but are you gonna lose
(20:47):
more energy in the process with one of 'em as opposed to the other?
Potentially?
I.
Yeah.
Yeah, it definitely, definitely can be a marathon when you're,
when you're in those markets, um, especially depending on buying
cycles and all that fun stuff that comes along with having to
sell and figuring out when people are gonna make decisions.
It's like, are they gonna make the deal?
(21:07):
Are they gonna close it or are we waiting another quarter for that?
Um.
I'm, I feel you,
some of my background is in sales, so I'm,
I'm very empathetic to sales backgrounds.
I'm always like, yes, I, I get you.
I understand.
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And so then, then getting into be kept up, you're starting this
on your own, you're, you're testing out the waters, obviously,
you know, it's a, a marathon and not a sprint at this point.
(22:11):
Um, at what point did you have that, what I call the
moment of validation in your business where you're like,
okay, it's not just an idea, it's not just a concept.
Oh, we have buying customers, we know this is gonna be a real thing.
What was that moment of validation for you that you were on the right path?
That's a
great question.
I think once we hit over six figures revenue in a single month, that
(22:33):
was, that was the proving ground of, you know, okay, there's some
legs here and you know, what are we, what are we gonna do from here?
You know, it was the first year, maybe a year and a half, it was
slower, and you have to be ever changing and adaptable once again.
You go in with a certain idea or a certain flow or expectation.
You know, expectations can be a little bit dangerous at times,
(22:56):
um, because they can get in our way of adapting because we're so
focused on how we see it rather than what's actually going on.
But I'd, I'd say the first year and a half was slow.
And once we hit six figures, revenue, that was sort of
the turning point for me of, okay, there's legs here.
What can we do?
How can we grow this thing?
And, and also an appreciation, I think so many times,
(23:18):
especially in sales, if we're focused on the future.
Either the past or the future, but not the present in sales.
And I think that's, that can be the trap of, uh, you know,
let me stay grateful for what's here, for what's provided for.
And because of that, more abundance will come.
And I think that's the, the mentality and sales
(23:39):
that's very important as opposed to, you know.
We did this and the clock just reset and we have a new goal
attached to our, our head, or you know, how am I gonna get there?
Just all this mental chatter, but just, I'm grateful for what's
provided and certain trust that, you know what, there will be more.
I'm gonna do my job.
(23:59):
And more will attach to it.
Yeah.
I, I think, I mean, you bring up a good point about being grateful
for the present and sales because I think, um, a lot of people and,
and myself included in this, I'm very guilty of being anxious about
closing the deals to close out the month to make sure things happen.
But as I have learned on the, on the backside of it
being a business owner, you know, running my own company
(24:21):
and having other people sell to me now, um, you know.
You can smell the desperation.
It's a, it's an, it's an energy.
It is.
Absolutely it is.
And you can, you can tell it's there, you can tell when
someone is just dying to close a deal and when they're nervous
and if they beg you hard enough, you might help 'em out.
(24:42):
But like even then, like you don't want that kind of a deal because
you've, you're setting the relationship on, I'm helping you out.
I'm, I'm doing you a solid bro, versus, Hey, I
really need this and you're solving my problem.
And, um, the, the way I've always heard it, I don't
know if you're familiar with Adam Sandler, but he.
Adam Sandler.
No wrong Sandler.
(25:02):
Familiar, familiar with him?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Sandler has some great quotes, but not about sales.
Um, man, it, I'm just jet lagged here, so get so, bear with me.
Adam.
Adam, grant.
No, no, no.
Sand.
It is Sandler, um,
San Sandler's last name, Sandler Sales Program and all that stuff.
I'll come up with his first name and we'll put it in the show notes.
(25:23):
Um, or I'll probably remember by the time we're done with this, but, um.
He, he basically, he talks about, you know, approaching a sales deal is if
you have a million dollars in your pocket, you, you wanna operate in a way
where if you lose this deal, it's not the end of your family and your life.
And, um, and yeah, I think being able to have that healthy mentality,
(25:45):
some of that comes from, you know, building a good business, knowing
where your revenues are at, understanding where your financial future is.
I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.
But yeah, it's a different approach once you, once you realize, okay, I
know next month is covered, but we wanna do more, so how can we do more?
And that's a much different conversation than, okay, I need this,
(26:05):
you have to close this deal, or My business is bankrupt type of deal.
So yeah, it's a much different mental approach.
And I, I mean, in this day and age, you look at publicly traded companies
and the, the growth potential that they're on and the pressures.
Internally and, you know, look, money's great at the end of the day.
It's not everything I, I think, you know, you're on the same page.
(26:26):
There is that there's more to life and what are we trying to do?
Is it legacy?
Is it family?
Is it, you know, doing good, leaving the
world in a better place than we found it?
What is it for me?
You know, I love money, but it's not everything.
It's, it's energy.
It's, it's the fruits of our labor.
It's the fruits of our output.
So, so, you know, I think it's really interesting
just seeing the pressures that are put on a lot of.
(26:48):
And workers, uh, compared to 50 or a hundred years ago.
And, you know, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth.
It's like, when is enough enough?
You know?
Yeah.
Everyone's running ragged, uh, at a certain point.
So, you know, I, I think that's, that's interesting.
Um, and that's not to say that I don't, you know, value myself
for this business or have a high, you know, growth potential.
(27:10):
It's just a different mentality behind it.
Understanding the cycles.
Yeah.
There's, um, there's a thought leader that
I, I love to follow a guy named Ed Tron.
I don't know if you're familiar with him or not, um, but
Ed talks a lot about this, this growth first mentality
that startups and technology companies have right now.
And it's an obsession to which like.
(27:31):
We end up abusing the end user as a result of our desire for growth.
I mean, I don't know if you have Facebook on your phone or you've
avoided putting apps on your phone for mental health reasons or whatever.
I know some people have, some people haven't.
I am dumb and have kept it on there partially 'cause I'm a
small business owner and I have to keep my marketing going, but.
Every time I look at my phone, Facebook has like 10 plus
(27:53):
notifications, and every time I go in, nothing's relevant to me.
But you know what they've done?
They've increased their engagement because somebody has opened the
app and they've scrolled through the phone and if they're lucky,
something on that homepage caught my eye and I scrolled for a little
bit before I went back to work or back to doing something else.
Way more important than looking at Facebook.
But they're just doing that to basically torture the end user and drive those
(28:15):
engagement numbers, drive those gross numbers, growth numbers, and yeah, it's,
it's a very abusive, it's becoming a very abusive system to the end user.
And I just wonder how long, how long those
types of companies are gonna stick around.
And when you talk about a sustainable
business, you want something that has those.
Deeper relationships that aren't all just, oh,
(28:36):
we're gonna get bigger this year than last year.
So, um, I mean, growth is important.
Your team needs to feel growth.
They need to feel like you're progressing.
But progress can be different than growth.
I completely agree.
And, you know, there's, there's fatigue all around.
You know, our phone is constantly buzzing for our attention.
Um, you know, raising a family with only a landline, you know, when I grew up,
(28:58):
for example, as opposed to anyone pinging you for anything at a moment's notice.
Expecting, uh, a reply, whether that's email or text, or call or
whatever it is, it's a whole different ball game and everyone's
fighting for our attention, and we only have so much energy.
Everyone has the same amount of hours in a day.
And how are, how are we going to use it?
(29:19):
You know, that's, that's entirely up to us.
But I think that's what's interesting.
Everyone's vying for our time.
It's the same reason psychologists are working for these, you know, big
social media companies or apps or whomever it is, because they wanna keep
you on their product and they wanna keep you engaged in something relevant.
Um, at the end of the day, you're a data stream.
You're, you're a source of revenue, you're a number in their, uh,
(29:42):
advertising metrics and you know, you're providing revenue for them.
Absolutely.
Um, and it's, it is crazy.
And to see where we're going, I mean, we, we, you mentioned, kind
of alluded to this already, but like that intensity of what we
need to do to keep up and to keep growing is just gonna continue
to increase, I think both for the business and for the individuals.
People go, oh, well AI should be able to handle that.
(30:04):
You should be able to move faster now.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean it's, it's insane.
Um, you look at a few industries, I look at even
what's gonna happen to public schools and teachers.
You know, is, is that going to change?
Um, programmers, everyone was talking about going into
coding camp and becoming a coder just a few years ago.
(30:26):
Now you have tools like, uh, you know, cursor or what's
the Lovable or any of these, and you can make apps or
databases, platforms, dashboards, websites, just from prompts.
Someone who has no coding knowledge whatsoever
can develop a website in under 10 minutes.
It's insane.
It's, it's just surreal.
I mean, in, in the way those have even developed in the
(30:48):
past year or too, like what used to just develop a little
bit of HTML code now, like you said, does a whole website.
Um, and yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a different world.
Um, but I don't think it's the end of the world.
I think the people who panic and say it's gotta be the end of
the world of the worst because, um, you know, there's so much
opportunity to take advantage of it if you know what to do with it.
(31:10):
Um, and know how to leverage it.
So I think there is some of that as well.
But yeah, it's a, it's a delicate balance, I think, with AI and that technology.
Agreed.
And, you know, look, there's people who are gonna be doom and
gloom and there are many circumstances that, uh, you know,
warrant that caution or precaution or fear in some regards.
But then there's the other side.
(31:31):
Look, we're in a duality planet.
There's good, there's bad.
And a lot of the times we can find one of
those, uh, both of those in something singular.
So, you know, we're gonna adapt as we have, as
we have for thousands of years on this planet.
And that's the name of the game, is that we're
gonna be forced to adapt whether we like it or not.
And I think, you know, I do think there are some hard times coming
(31:54):
for a lot of people, whether that's economically, um, whether
that's jobs, whether that's global insecurity, whatever it is.
But I do think that at the core of it.
Having to live those lessons and live through those experiences is gonna
make us stronger and we're gonna pass it on for future generations.
Yeah.
I, I think so too.
Um, I mean, you and I kind of grew up in the same era, so we saw, um,
(32:19):
I think I'm a little bit older than you, but like I, I remember seeing
like my dad go from having a desktop computer to bringing home a laptop
and then from dial up to high speed internet and everything in between.
And it's at every step, there's always been that doom and gloom,
news media going, oh no, this is the end of the world, this new.
(32:39):
Technology's gonna take over and people are gonna lose jobs, and people do.
But jobs also change job titles and careers and things, and I think
it's just gonna lead to a, hopefully, a better future for everybody.
But, um, yeah, it's an interesting place to be.
So Awesome.
I agree with you.
And you know, my, my hope is this, my hope is that, you
know, we take these experiences and we can learn and we
(33:00):
can adapt and we can become better through all of this.
Um.
And being more conscious and also maybe
not have this digital fatigue that we have.
I think with AI and content creation and all of these different things that
are coming to fruition at the same time, there is a fatigue at a certain point.
When are we gonna just take our phone and throw and
(33:20):
say, I just wanna be outside and play in the woods.
You know, like that's, that's how I see it is, uh, things
are only getting more intelligent, competing for a time,
even more, and we're feeling more pressures to, to keep up.
With this system, that's fear that we're born into.
And so, you know, I, I hope that it leads to more authentic relationships and
(33:45):
human connections and get togethers and, uh, just being real with each other as
opposed to trying to know everything and running every single thing through ai.
I think at this point in time, we're all, a lot of us,
myself included, we're trying to be perfectionists.
Well, you know, this information's out there and
can I be an expert in this and an expert in that.
(34:06):
And at the end of the day, it's, we're human.
Make the mistake, fail forward and move on.
Yeah, I mean the, just the, the idea you, you mentioning
like people being on their phones and devices, I'm thinking
now of like the, what they talk about with the Gen Z stare.
I don't know if you've heard of this one.
Um, I, I think, I think by that nod you have, but, but that Zi stare, I,
(34:28):
I've experienced it.
You know, I have too, and I'm, I'm like, I'm so grateful.
They put a name on it and I was like, oh, I know what that is now.
Like, I've seen that a bunch recently and didn't know what I was dealing with.
But yeah, it's, it's just people trying to explore that,
understand that that whole psychology behind, and a
lot of it comes from like a disconnect with technology.
(34:48):
And I'm gonna sound like an old man saying that these kids
these days, but it really is like just, you know, you don't.
You just don't know how to interact with people, or you think it's
funny to be that kind of rude to people because you don't understand,
you know, the basic decency behind human, human interaction with
strangers, and it's just a wild, wild future that we potentially have.
(35:12):
But I, I agree with you.
I want us to get back to more.
Um, authentic connections and hopefully this technology at some point will make
it to where we actually don't need to be in front of a screen as frequently.
We can be more face-to-face as we were joking
about before the interview got started.
Um, you know, maybe there's a time that comes where we
have to have a podcast face-to-face because it's the
(35:34):
only way to prove the authenticity of the interviews.
Um, but yeah, it's just the, the wild world we're living in.
I agree wildly.
And, you know, I, I think, you know, something relevant for, for our
conversation here is I think the landscape of business is changing where it's
not so much what can you do individually, but it's about creating systems.
(35:57):
And I think that's where the, the age of AI, per se, is
leading us to how can we create systems and become operators
rather than just doers and putting everything on our plate.
And I think that's what's gonna separate.
The next wave of businesses is, how can I operate and manage as
opposed to let me just put everything on my plate until I'm drowning.
(36:20):
That's a good point.
That's, that's actually a really good point because, you
know, I, I think just on the small business side of what
we do, um, the more I can use AI and leverage AI to.
Smooth our operations out, the more I'm
trying to do, because that's a huge help.
You know, we don't use it so much externally with production, but with,
um, internal stuff, like if we can find a way to, you know, make it to
(36:43):
where a client drops a folder in, it goes to this place and does all
that, like all those simple operational things make a huge difference.
And I can just see in the future how more and
more of that will become relevant and important.
That's a good point.
I like that.
It's almost like the, the CEO mindset I see of, you know, how can
I, how can I, even if you're managing AI systems, so be it, but
(37:04):
taking you out and realizing that you need to have that bird's idea.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And, and I mean, I don't know if you've heard this, but I've,
I've heard a lot of rumors around like, oh, CEOs are the ones
that risk the most by AI actually, because of how they can
view systems and view processes and, you know, make decisions.
And it's like, why do you need a CEO and why do you need to pay a
(37:26):
millions of dollars if you could have an AI make those same decisions?
Yeah.
We're seeing the same with coders.
I mean, what coders at Google, we're making three, four, $500,000 easy a year.
And, you know, we are importing talent from all across the world.
And now you have coders that are managing
AI systems and just verifying their work.
So you have a, you have a team of 10.
(37:48):
I keep hearing this, the rule of 10 all the time.
You had these 10 performers, one was the best performer.
They're keeping that best performer, loading
it through AI and just verifying the work.
I mean, it's, it's unfortunate for those people and don't get me
wrong, and I, you know, definitely feel for them, their families, and.
Have you and the skillset that they've spent so much time learning, um, this is
(38:09):
the way the world and where it's going right now of, of, once again, adaptation.
How are we gonna adapt and become operators rather than just doers?
Yeah, there's a lot of adaption or a adaption, that's not the right word.
Adaptation is the word I was going for there.
Um, there's a lot of adaptation that has to happen
I think in the next few months, if anything.
(38:30):
Um, and in the coming years for sure.
So that's great.
Well, Josh, this has been awesome.
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Before we wrap up, I always like to ask this one question.
You may may already know it, um, but the one I like to
ask at the end is, what brand do you admire the most?
And just to add a little more color to that, when I say admire, I don't
just mean like what's your favorite brand that you use, but what's
(38:52):
maybe a brand that has even inspired how you build your business.
So with that in mind, what, what brand do you admire the most?
You know, a against popular opinion these days.
I think Tesla is a great example of American entrepreneurship.
Love Musk or hate him, whatever someone's view is.
I mean, they came out of nowhere and took down legacy
car makers that have been there for over a hundred years.
(39:16):
Practically overnight, under the radar.
And now you have the richest man in the world who, who
built this, this company somehow and came out of nowhere.
So, um, you know, there's a lot of things they don't do right.
And I'll be the first person to tell you
that, but there's, I, I will not hold that.
But I think what they built in such a short time is inspiring and
it, it shows you what we can create in this country, uh, on a dime.
(39:36):
Um, you know, there still is.
Some elements of freedom, uh, in the country.
Um, but just seeing what they built, how they
built it, um, and revolutionizing the game.
I, I, I really look at that model and I say, uh, wow.
I don't know how you did it.
Going against the automakers, going against
the regulators, going against the lobbyists.
(39:58):
Um, it's definitely an interesting journey to see.
Yeah.
Oh, it's fascinating.
I, I can remember seeing, um, an episode of Top Gear
where Tesla came on and they drove, um, the original
Tesla, which was just a modified Lotus Elise around, yeah.
The little Roadster.
And I actually saw one of those, um, I used to live in Lexington,
(40:19):
Kentucky, and they had this big event every year called the Concourse gans.
And every year was a different theme for cars.
In one year, they had, um, Tesla as not the
main manufacturer, but they had a, that Tesla.
Roads through there, and it was before Tesla was, you know, a household name.
So it was really cool to see them back then and be
like, I wonder if that company will be anything.
(40:39):
That'd be cool to see them do something
successful and then to see where they're at.
I, I agree from a, you know, from a marketing, a branding
perspective, like they've done an incredible job.
I, I, no doubt about that.
The person, the person most in charge for things right now.
Got some questions about, but
wholeheartedly agree.
Wholeheartedly agree.
I mean, the fact that they built a car that can be faster than
(41:00):
a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, uh, the car is 10 20 x the price.
I mean, that's, that's nothing short of incredible.
Oh yeah.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
And I think that's fascinating.
So great.
That's awesome.
Well, Josh, where can people find you?
Where can people connect with you if they want to learn
more about, be kept up or just connect with you in person?
(41:21):
Yeah, definitely.
LinkedIn is the way to go for me.
Joshua Kak, K-O-P-A-C.
Uh, website is b kept up.com.
And uh, if you're attending Affiliate Summit or any of the, uh,
affiliate shows, money 2020, uh, affiliate Summit West, MAU, you name it.
I'd love to see you there.
Feel free to reach out.
Awesome.
Again, Chris, thank you for having me on.
(41:41):
Josh, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it today.
It's been a lot of fun.
Sure
thing.
Thanks again.
Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.
Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice.
You can also keep up with the podcast on we built this brand.com.
If you like this episode, please give the podcast a five star review and make
sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.
And welcome back to We Built This Brand.
I'm your host, Chris Hill, and today with
me is Joshua Kak, the founder of Be Kept Up.
Joshua, thank you for joining me today.
Thanks for having me on Chris.
Yeah.
Awesome.
I'm excited to talk to you.
Um, you've got quite the interesting background in entrepreneurship
and, um, you know, that ultimately led you to where you're at today.
(00:26):
And, you know, as we built this brand, we like to talk to
people that aren't just marketers, aren't just, um, you
know, in that world, but are also entrepreneurs and founders.
And, um, I love talking about your journey to becoming,
you know, who you are today as well as the business itself.
So.
Would just love to start by diving in and, and
learning a little bit about your background.
When did you first become an entrepreneur?
(00:48):
So, I'd say in about 2006, 2007.
Um, so I, I owned various websites throughout the time.
Randomly the internet was up and coming.
I was super interested in what was going on, how
to keep up with it, uh, no pun intended there.
Um, and essentially, you know, I was approaching the age of getting a job.
(01:08):
And I was asking myself, all right, well what do I wanna do with myself?
And the answer was, I didn't wanna bag groceries.
So I was a member of a lot of get paid two websites.
So get paid two websites, essentially.
Uh, you can complete offers in exchange for points or cash.
Cash, cash out.
And that's how I funded my first business.
So I, I looked at one, there was, uh, you know, treasure
(01:30):
Trooper and Cash Crate and SWAT cash back in the day.
And I was a member of all three.
And I would generate money again, probably against their terms of service.
I was too young.
Um, but nonetheless, I got the checks in the mail and I, instead
of there doing it, it, why can't I, I knew nothing about.
Coding knew nothing about operating a website, knew nothing about
how to do it, but I said, if they're doing it, I'm gonna do it.
(01:52):
You know, that's, that's a long, long story.
Somewhat shortened, but it just came down to I didn't wanna bag,
bag groceries and I wanted to have a means and, and learn, and
it was the age of the internet and things were expanding rapidly.
Uh, you know, post a OL once we actually had some DSL or some broadband
internet and things were just shaking off really quickly, much like.
(02:15):
It seems it's happening today.
Yeah.
That's, that's fascinating.
So 2006, 2007.
Um, and you said the age of getting a job, so I, I
assume when you say that, you're not saying like after
college, you're saying starting your first job, right?
Yep.
I was, I was in high school.
I think I was 13 when I first started.
(02:37):
So, you know, it got to the point where I would take naps during high school
and come home and, and work through the night, and I just was figuring it out.
But it was a lot of fun.
Very different path.
It was hard to relate to a lot of people in different ways from.
What I was able to experience and what I was able to
do, but nonetheless, that, that led into a wide variety
(02:59):
of, you know, different pursuits and different things.
Yeah, I can imagine it would because, you know, getting
that experience, that young, being able to do those things.
I mean, I remember trying to start, you know,
doing web design when I was in high school and.
It was difficult, um, without having any guidance and really not a lot of
places, I mean, YouTube didn't exist when I was first trying to do this.
(03:21):
So like, figuring it out on your own was hard.
Um, and your high school teacher who could teach you
how to do H TM L couldn't teach you to do very much.
Um, so yeah, that stuff was difficult.
So the fact that you were able to do it at a young age is impressive.
Thanks.
And, you know, it, it, it sort of came to fruition in a strange way.
So, 14 days into high school, I was expelled.
(03:44):
Oh dang.
And I was expelled, you know, not for fighting
in the hallways or doing anything like that.
I was expelled for hacking the school.
Okay.
Uh, you know, it was a time where network security and
operational security was in a very different place, and it
was coming to fruition with the ever-changing technology.
(04:04):
Um, so I was expelled 14 days in for, for hacking the school.
And, you know, they put me in an, uh, the administrator's office.
I was truthful with them, yes, I did this
and here's how I did it, and yada, yada yada.
So I was expelled, I think, for three months, but that was sort of the catalyst
for me of, do I want to use this for good or do I wanna use this for bad?
(04:25):
And that was the turning point for me where I had to do a lot
of introspection and self journeying and understand, uh, I
could do that, but this isn't gonna go very well for anybody.
Yeah, I'm sure your parents weren't too pleased with that.
No, there's, uh, I'll, I'll withhold some comments
there, but I, I owe them a vacation or two.
(04:48):
I would imagine.
So I, yeah, I can, I can relate to that a little bit so I understand.
Um, but yeah, that's, that, that is crazy.
So you get, you get outta high school then when, well, I
guess when did your first business really, um, take off?
Like when did you get recognized for, um,
for all this hard work you were putting in?
(05:08):
I
think 2008, so 2008, that's when we were a little bit more public.
I think we did just over a million dollars revenue that year.
We didn't know what the hell we were doing.
We didn't, we didn't know about bookkeeping and accounting and
AR and AP and taxes and, uh, you know, all it was fun money for
us and one of the greatest lessons to have that happen at 14.
(05:33):
Sure.
I gave my dad a heart attack.
Figuratively, not really.
Um.
But you know, it was, it was one of those things where you just had to learn.
It was sort of like, alright, your back's against the
wall, here's everything that's going on, figure it out.
Um, but you know, to answer your question, 2008 was when we were more public.
You know, we were a group of 14 and 15 and
(05:55):
16 year olds having a booth at a trade show.
And, you know, we had a cigar roller in New York
City, for example, we handed out 4,000 cigars.
We couldn't even legally smoke them.
I was about to say, could you smoke those,
you know, weird, weird times in many ways, but in other ways it was,
it was freeing and it's allowed me to not take things too seriously.
(06:19):
Um, you know, from those lessons.
Yeah.
Yeah, that's, that is fascinating too.
'cause like that's, I can't imagine having
a cigar roller at my, my event under 18.
I was such a goody two shoe for the most part.
Um, that sounds, sounds awesome though.
Um, but that's, yeah.
So, so you, you get into that, you, you start growing this business
(06:41):
starts going, like, how long was it until you were like, I'm done.
I mean, did I assume you graduated high school
and got your, at least your high school diploma?
Correct.
I did, I,
I Grit my teeth.
I, I thank one of my teachers, my marketing
teacher for, you know, telling me to stick with it.
Like, you're already here, don't worry about it.
Just put in the extra few months and you do whatever you need.
(07:04):
So that was, you know, really, really grateful
for, for Mark for helping me with that.
But, um, college was an interesting discussion too.
I was the first of four to not go.
In my family, you know, my parents were not pleased.
That was the model that was, that still is the model, very much so in
in the United States, at least of you need to get higher education.
(07:24):
And my perspective was, no, I want experience.
I don't want to go a quarter million dollars in debt.
I want experience.
I already have relationships.
Let me leverage those and continue learning and doing.
Yeah, I think that's wise.
Um.
I mean, one of our biggest clients, um, for my business is
actually a, um, a company started by two founders that neither of
(07:47):
which have college degrees and they're excellent in their field.
They're well known, and they'll, they'll proudly tell you neither of them
have college degrees and they love to gimme crap about having an MBA.
So.
Yeah, I, I totally feel that
we, we all have our different paths though.
We go, we go back to school for different reasons.
I went back because, um, I went back for my master's in
(08:09):
part because I wanted to, I realized my first startup
didn't go well, and it was like, I need to learn more.
And so I went back.
But other people learned different ways and you clearly were at a
point where you didn't need it from the beginning, and that's awesome.
So.
So, where have you grown since then?
Since, uh, since high school, since doing all this?
It looks like you've, you've done quite a bit.
So tell me, tell me, kinda like, you don't have to go
(08:32):
through every up and down, but where have you ended up today?
Yeah, so kind of going through the navigation,
you know, that I'll, I'll start here.
It was really difficult having that experience in high school, of
going from having what felt like everything and shaping your identity.
So you're already shaping your identity as a teenager.
You know, uh, going through, just growing up and
(08:55):
I thought that was my identity was the business.
And to have it, the rug sort of pulled out from you and
have to reclaim your identity while you're already trying
to create an identity that was a, a really, uh, difficult.
Portion of life, per se, of, of trying to get back up.
So, you know, I stayed in the industry.
Um, I've done everything from monetizing, uh, you know, digital
(09:19):
traffic, to running FinTech blogs, to affiliate networks.
Uh, most recently I was at Protege where I helped 'em drive
about $75 million in sales for my personal book, saw a
acquisition to Great Hill Partners for over a billion dollars.
And that led into a very, once again, unique circumstance.
I was in an auto accident and, uh, sort of had to recover.
(09:43):
So I had a traumatic brain injury.
Um, I had slipped discs and herniated discs in
my neck, uh, among some other difficult things.
And that sort of forced me to slow down and say, well,
this isn't sustainable, this way of doing things.
You can do it, that's great, but if you're here for much longer,
you're either gonna cease to exist or you're gonna burn out.
(10:03):
And, you know, I felt that was God's way of telling me, uh, you know,
forcing a redirection per se, of you're not gonna listen elsewise.
Uh, so, you know, here's your circumstance.
Figure it out.
So that led into creating a founding Be kept up.
We're, um, founder and CEO.
Uh, we're a digital marketing agency at the
core, and, uh, we specialize in affiliate.
(10:26):
So affiliate meaning we're an arbitrage.
Between advertiser and publisher.
So let's say we have a publisher, which could be Forbes,
who's writing content, and they're writing content about
an advertiser of ours, let's just say a budgeting app.
Um, so we're basically working with the advertiser.
We collect a flat commission for every customer that signs
(10:48):
up for said product, and we pass on a portion of that
to the publisher who's actually doing the advertising.
Okay.
Interesting.
So you're, you're then, that, that's what you mean by affiliate then.
So how does that work on your end?
Because I, I'm not too familiar with affiliate marketing and
I, I'd kinda like to dig into that just a little bit, um,
for the business marketing nerdy side of the podcast here.
(11:12):
Um, so you said publisher, you said they get
commissioned, but what, what work are you doing?
Are you putting it out on websites and in apps and doing the display ads?
Like, how does that work for you?
So there's a, there's a couple things we do.
So one is we're securing the deal with the advertiser.
So what are you looking for?
What's your product?
What's your payment model?
(11:33):
Are you paying on a sale?
Are you paying on a subscription?
Are you paying on a free trial?
Um, so nailing those details down with the advertiser
first, and then finding the actual publisher source.
So I'm just leveraging, essentially 18 years in
the industry with a lot of these relationships.
But you know, for example, Forbes will go and write content.
We'll get it approved by the advertiser.
Make sure that you know, the talking points are
(11:55):
correct or the branding is correct, what have you.
Um, and we're playing the middleman there.
So we're leveraging relationships we have on both ends that the other doesn't.
So the advertiser doesn't know a Forbes or a CNN and the Forbes
and the CNN doesn't know his particular bank or budgeting app.
So we're just leveraging those relationships and connecting pipes essentially.
(12:19):
Nice.
Nice.
And when you founded this business, you said be kept up.
Like, you know, I always find that, you know, when you're
starting a new business, like, you know, the name is very
intrinsic to what you're trying to communicate with the brand.
So where did that come from and and why is it be kept up?
So I was big into, uh, Kundalini yoga, meditation, and actually
(12:40):
I'm a certified teacher, uh, from, from many years ago.
So that's something that I did.
Uh.
After politics, which is another story.
Um.
In order to just calm down and sort of get
out of that energy field and find my center.
Um, but there was a saying in that lineage of
yoga, which was keep up and you'll be kept up.
(13:02):
And this name to me was a reminder during my auto accident and
everything that I was and still am enduring from that of, to
keep up to, you know, hold myself, uh, to a certain standard,
hold my business to a certain standard and make sure that.
I'm keeping up.
So for me, it's a mantra, it's a reminder.
(13:23):
Uh, it's something that when I'm wearing the logo or see the logo, it sort of
just puts that mental projection for me of keep up, keep up, keep up, keep up.
Not unhealthily, uh, but just setting that standard and
having that standard for, for myself, for my family,
for the business, for clients, and what have you.
That's, that's really neat.
(13:44):
Um, so what is Kun, you said Kalinga yoga?
Is that, did I say that correctly?
I don't think I did.
Kundalini was the, the Kundalini, yeah, I definitely butchered that.
But tell me, tell me what, what exactly is that kind of yoga?
Yeah, so it's a complete system of yoga.
So it has everything from the poses or the CREs.
(14:06):
So the Cs are just the, the sets, um, Pran, which is breath.
Mantra, which can be, you know, chanting, uh, mudras finger positions.
Um, so it involved, you know, all of the other pieces of yoga per se.
And you could say it's, you know, the, the whole pizza pie.
There's no wrong way to do it.
It was just something that I felt called to, it was something that I felt, um,
(14:29):
that resonated with me and it helped me through a lot of life's transitions.
Yeah, I can imagine.
I mean, especially after the car accident and everything like that, I'm sure.
Just that physical activity.
I've had some physical injuries myself, and
I know how hard it can be to overcome that.
You know, I, I would imagine that that's probably very helpful for that too.
Stretching and all those things that yoga entails, especially core muscles.
(14:53):
You don't realize how important core muscles are until you lose a function.
Oh yeah.
That's neat.
Um.
So, yeah.
So then, um, you, you also mentioned, and, and I think this is
prob, I can imagine this is a big challenge, like coming from, um.
Co coming from like this early age into now, like you, you've
(15:16):
lived a lot of careers in the time that most people are just
getting outta college and just getting started with their career.
Um, and maybe even more than most people will ever experience to a degree.
Um, but you mentioned this l idea of losing your
identity, having to recreate or creating your identity.
Like how has.
I don't wanna leave it so vague as just to say how has that journey been?
(15:38):
But I'm just curious, like what have you
learned along the way of all those ins and outs?
Yeah, I think being adaptable is probably the largest one.
Things are gonna change on a dime.
You know, there's people getting married, there's people
getting divorced, there's people, uh, you know, having children.
Whatever it is, it's, we just have to adapt.
(15:58):
So I think that was the largest lesson and still is.
I've by no means mastered it.
I'm still human and still experiencing, know life's challenges per
se, but I'd say being adaptable and being moldable, especially in this
day and age of ai and how quickly everything's changing on a dime.
I don't think even myself included, we don't realize how quickly
(16:21):
everything is changing in the world and what that's going to mean.
You know, you look at the industrial revolution.
With how quickly everything changed, and that was years, you
know, if not decades, this is happening where, you know, we're
having LLMs large language models for AI literally on track and,
and knowing more than encyclopedias at a, at a moment's notice.
(16:44):
So it's, it's very interesting the way things are are going.
But I'd say it's even more important in this day and age
with the dawning of ai, with the age of AI to be adaptable.
To be moldable.
I, I can't even fathom that right now.
I dunno.
It's, it's really, it's kept me up at night just
trying to understand where things are going.
(17:05):
Hmm.
Yeah, it's, it, yeah.
I mean, you, you bring up AI and all that.
We could probably talk for hours about that.
There's so much going on in that world and so much
that's changing and we'll probably come back to that.
But, you know, going through that, being
adaptable, I mean, that makes a lot of sense.
Um, for where you've been in what you, what you're
even, you know, learning and going through today.
(17:27):
Right.
But like, has there been anything, like what has
kept you anchored or rooted during this time?
Has it been just the yoga or are there other things that kind of help
you stay focused as you go through these times and help you be adaptable?
Yeah.
Yoga for sure.
My wife, uh, family.
And I think drive, just having that, having that drive, that's something that
(17:48):
even in my darkest hours hasn't disappeared, which I'm really grateful for.
Um, I think that's what's, that's what's kept me going.
That's great.
That's great.
Well, let's dive in now and talk a little bit more about,
be kept up talking about the affiliate side of things.
Um, how long, when, when did you find found be kept up by the way?
So this was 2023, I believe, early 2023.
(18:15):
I was experiencing a leave taking time off of work for FMLA
and sort of understanding what my next options were while.
Trying to balance my health and it was difficult to
work a full-time job while going to appointments.
I think I went to 150 appointments in a single year,
so you're talking, you know, almost every other day.
Um, which was pretty insane.
(18:37):
So, you know, that, that was definitely interesting.
Um, but for me it was about, well, what lifestyle do I want
to create and what can I create given these circumstances?
Where it's not gonna add additional undue stress to
myself and my family, but create more of a means.
So for me it was, okay, I have these relationships, I have the wherewithal.
(18:58):
This is an internet business.
There's limited overhead and let me just try this.
If it doesn't work out, it know I'll return back to the corporate world.
But it was a time to take self ownership and really
rise up given that I had the confidence from.
From protege and I'm helping harbor and con, uh, confidence
in myself and giving me the grounds and the support to, to
(19:19):
really thrive and take off and be exposed to so much there.
They, uh, sort of dropped me in a bucket in many
regards and I figured had to figure a lot of things out.
Um, and I'm really grateful for that because they exposed me to so much,
you know, whether that's the corporate world, whether that's interacting
with the C-suite, whether that's documentations, processes, uh, you name it.
(19:40):
But that was, that was a really great stepping stone
for me and I'm, you know, really grateful for them.
That's, that's great.
Um.
So you mentioned, you mentioned protege and you were VP of sales over there.
I find sales roles are always like, they're gonna
be your proving ground for what you can do next.
Um, you know, and learning, learning the, the industry
(20:01):
and figuring out, you know, things within that.
What did you, what did you learn during your time
there that's helped you with getting be kept up?
Started?
It's a marathon, not a sprint.
It's probably the largest one.
Especially in a sales role where you have people chirping in
your ears or you have goals and you put pressure on yourself,
(20:22):
or there's pressure from others, or it can be competitive,
uh, you know, just realizing it's a marathon, not a sprint.
And I think if you're doing the work and you're
not stressing about it, good things are gonna come.
You know, I, I think there's a couple approaches in sales.
There's the, there's the trust mentality and there's the lack mentality.
They both can get you to the same place, but are you gonna lose
(20:47):
more energy in the process with one of 'em as opposed to the other?
Potentially?
I.
Yeah.
Yeah, it definitely, definitely can be a marathon when you're,
when you're in those markets, um, especially depending on buying
cycles and all that fun stuff that comes along with having to
sell and figuring out when people are gonna make decisions.
It's like, are they gonna make the deal?
(21:07):
Are they gonna close it or are we waiting another quarter for that?
Um.
I'm, I feel you,
some of my background is in sales, so I'm,
I'm very empathetic to sales backgrounds.
I'm always like, yes, I, I get you.
I understand.
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And so then, then getting into be kept up, you're starting this
on your own, you're, you're testing out the waters, obviously,
you know, it's a, a marathon and not a sprint at this point.
(22:11):
Um, at what point did you have that, what I call the
moment of validation in your business where you're like,
okay, it's not just an idea, it's not just a concept.
Oh, we have buying customers, we know this is gonna be a real thing.
What was that moment of validation for you that you were on the right path?
That's a
great question.
I think once we hit over six figures revenue in a single month, that
(22:33):
was, that was the proving ground of, you know, okay, there's some
legs here and you know, what are we, what are we gonna do from here?
You know, it was the first year, maybe a year and a half, it was
slower, and you have to be ever changing and adaptable once again.
You go in with a certain idea or a certain flow or expectation.
You know, expectations can be a little bit dangerous at times,
(22:56):
um, because they can get in our way of adapting because we're so
focused on how we see it rather than what's actually going on.
But I'd, I'd say the first year and a half was slow.
And once we hit six figures, revenue, that was sort of
the turning point for me of, okay, there's legs here.
What can we do?
How can we grow this thing?
And, and also an appreciation, I think so many times,
(23:18):
especially in sales, if we're focused on the future.
Either the past or the future, but not the present in sales.
And I think that's, that can be the trap of, uh, you know,
let me stay grateful for what's here, for what's provided for.
And because of that, more abundance will come.
And I think that's the, the mentality and sales
(23:39):
that's very important as opposed to, you know.
We did this and the clock just reset and we have a new goal
attached to our, our head, or you know, how am I gonna get there?
Just all this mental chatter, but just, I'm grateful for what's
provided and certain trust that, you know what, there will be more.
I'm gonna do my job.
(23:59):
And more will attach to it.
Yeah.
I, I think, I mean, you bring up a good point about being grateful
for the present and sales because I think, um, a lot of people and,
and myself included in this, I'm very guilty of being anxious about
closing the deals to close out the month to make sure things happen.
But as I have learned on the, on the backside of it
being a business owner, you know, running my own company
(24:21):
and having other people sell to me now, um, you know.
You can smell the desperation.
It's a, it's an, it's an energy.
It is.
Absolutely it is.
And you can, you can tell it's there, you can tell when
someone is just dying to close a deal and when they're nervous
and if they beg you hard enough, you might help 'em out.
(24:42):
But like even then, like you don't want that kind of a deal because
you've, you're setting the relationship on, I'm helping you out.
I'm, I'm doing you a solid bro, versus, Hey, I
really need this and you're solving my problem.
And, um, the, the way I've always heard it, I don't
know if you're familiar with Adam Sandler, but he.
Adam Sandler.
No wrong Sandler.
(25:02):
Familiar, familiar with him?
Yeah.
Yeah.
Adam Sandler has some great quotes, but not about sales.
Um, man, it, I'm just jet lagged here, so get so, bear with me.
Adam.
Adam, grant.
No, no, no.
Sand.
It is Sandler, um,
San Sandler's last name, Sandler Sales Program and all that stuff.
I'll come up with his first name and we'll put it in the show notes.
(25:23):
Um, or I'll probably remember by the time we're done with this, but, um.
He, he basically, he talks about, you know, approaching a sales deal is if
you have a million dollars in your pocket, you, you wanna operate in a way
where if you lose this deal, it's not the end of your family and your life.
And, um, and yeah, I think being able to have that healthy mentality,
(25:45):
some of that comes from, you know, building a good business, knowing
where your revenues are at, understanding where your financial future is.
I'm sure that has a lot to do with it.
But yeah, it's a different approach once you, once you realize, okay, I
know next month is covered, but we wanna do more, so how can we do more?
And that's a much different conversation than, okay, I need this,
(26:05):
you have to close this deal, or My business is bankrupt type of deal.
So yeah, it's a much different mental approach.
And I, I mean, in this day and age, you look at publicly traded companies
and the, the growth potential that they're on and the pressures.
Internally and, you know, look, money's great at the end of the day.
It's not everything I, I think, you know, you're on the same page.
(26:26):
There is that there's more to life and what are we trying to do?
Is it legacy?
Is it family?
Is it, you know, doing good, leaving the
world in a better place than we found it?
What is it for me?
You know, I love money, but it's not everything.
It's, it's energy.
It's, it's the fruits of our labor.
It's the fruits of our output.
So, so, you know, I think it's really interesting
just seeing the pressures that are put on a lot of.
(26:48):
And workers, uh, compared to 50 or a hundred years ago.
And, you know, growth, growth, growth, growth, growth.
It's like, when is enough enough?
You know?
Yeah.
Everyone's running ragged, uh, at a certain point.
So, you know, I, I think that's, that's interesting.
Um, and that's not to say that I don't, you know, value myself
for this business or have a high, you know, growth potential.
(27:10):
It's just a different mentality behind it.
Understanding the cycles.
Yeah.
There's, um, there's a thought leader that
I, I love to follow a guy named Ed Tron.
I don't know if you're familiar with him or not, um, but
Ed talks a lot about this, this growth first mentality
that startups and technology companies have right now.
And it's an obsession to which like.
(27:31):
We end up abusing the end user as a result of our desire for growth.
I mean, I don't know if you have Facebook on your phone or you've
avoided putting apps on your phone for mental health reasons or whatever.
I know some people have, some people haven't.
I am dumb and have kept it on there partially 'cause I'm a
small business owner and I have to keep my marketing going, but.
Every time I look at my phone, Facebook has like 10 plus
(27:53):
notifications, and every time I go in, nothing's relevant to me.
But you know what they've done?
They've increased their engagement because somebody has opened the
app and they've scrolled through the phone and if they're lucky,
something on that homepage caught my eye and I scrolled for a little
bit before I went back to work or back to doing something else.
Way more important than looking at Facebook.
But they're just doing that to basically torture the end user and drive those
(28:15):
engagement numbers, drive those gross numbers, growth numbers, and yeah, it's,
it's a very abusive, it's becoming a very abusive system to the end user.
And I just wonder how long, how long those
types of companies are gonna stick around.
And when you talk about a sustainable
business, you want something that has those.
Deeper relationships that aren't all just, oh,
(28:36):
we're gonna get bigger this year than last year.
So, um, I mean, growth is important.
Your team needs to feel growth.
They need to feel like you're progressing.
But progress can be different than growth.
I completely agree.
And, you know, there's, there's fatigue all around.
You know, our phone is constantly buzzing for our attention.
Um, you know, raising a family with only a landline, you know, when I grew up,
(28:58):
for example, as opposed to anyone pinging you for anything at a moment's notice.
Expecting, uh, a reply, whether that's email or text, or call or
whatever it is, it's a whole different ball game and everyone's
fighting for our attention, and we only have so much energy.
Everyone has the same amount of hours in a day.
And how are, how are we going to use it?
(29:19):
You know, that's, that's entirely up to us.
But I think that's what's interesting.
Everyone's vying for our time.
It's the same reason psychologists are working for these, you know, big
social media companies or apps or whomever it is, because they wanna keep
you on their product and they wanna keep you engaged in something relevant.
Um, at the end of the day, you're a data stream.
You're, you're a source of revenue, you're a number in their, uh,
(29:42):
advertising metrics and you know, you're providing revenue for them.
Absolutely.
Um, and it's, it is crazy.
And to see where we're going, I mean, we, we, you mentioned, kind
of alluded to this already, but like that intensity of what we
need to do to keep up and to keep growing is just gonna continue
to increase, I think both for the business and for the individuals.
People go, oh, well AI should be able to handle that.
(30:04):
You should be able to move faster now.
Right?
Yeah.
I mean it's, it's insane.
Um, you look at a few industries, I look at even
what's gonna happen to public schools and teachers.
You know, is, is that going to change?
Um, programmers, everyone was talking about going into
coding camp and becoming a coder just a few years ago.
(30:26):
Now you have tools like, uh, you know, cursor or what's
the Lovable or any of these, and you can make apps or
databases, platforms, dashboards, websites, just from prompts.
Someone who has no coding knowledge whatsoever
can develop a website in under 10 minutes.
It's insane.
It's, it's just surreal.
I mean, in, in the way those have even developed in the
(30:48):
past year or too, like what used to just develop a little
bit of HTML code now, like you said, does a whole website.
Um, and yeah, it's gonna be, it's gonna be a different world.
Um, but I don't think it's the end of the world.
I think the people who panic and say it's gotta be the end of
the world of the worst because, um, you know, there's so much
opportunity to take advantage of it if you know what to do with it.
(31:10):
Um, and know how to leverage it.
So I think there is some of that as well.
But yeah, it's a, it's a delicate balance, I think, with AI and that technology.
Agreed.
And, you know, look, there's people who are gonna be doom and
gloom and there are many circumstances that, uh, you know,
warrant that caution or precaution or fear in some regards.
But then there's the other side.
(31:31):
Look, we're in a duality planet.
There's good, there's bad.
And a lot of the times we can find one of
those, uh, both of those in something singular.
So, you know, we're gonna adapt as we have, as
we have for thousands of years on this planet.
And that's the name of the game, is that we're
gonna be forced to adapt whether we like it or not.
And I think, you know, I do think there are some hard times coming
(31:54):
for a lot of people, whether that's economically, um, whether
that's jobs, whether that's global insecurity, whatever it is.
But I do think that at the core of it.
Having to live those lessons and live through those experiences is gonna
make us stronger and we're gonna pass it on for future generations.
Yeah.
I, I think so too.
Um, I mean, you and I kind of grew up in the same era, so we saw, um,
(32:19):
I think I'm a little bit older than you, but like I, I remember seeing
like my dad go from having a desktop computer to bringing home a laptop
and then from dial up to high speed internet and everything in between.
And it's at every step, there's always been that doom and gloom,
news media going, oh no, this is the end of the world, this new.
(32:39):
Technology's gonna take over and people are gonna lose jobs, and people do.
But jobs also change job titles and careers and things, and I think
it's just gonna lead to a, hopefully, a better future for everybody.
But, um, yeah, it's an interesting place to be.
So Awesome.
I agree with you.
And you know, my, my hope is this, my hope is that, you
know, we take these experiences and we can learn and we
(33:00):
can adapt and we can become better through all of this.
Um.
And being more conscious and also maybe
not have this digital fatigue that we have.
I think with AI and content creation and all of these different things that
are coming to fruition at the same time, there is a fatigue at a certain point.
When are we gonna just take our phone and throw and
(33:20):
say, I just wanna be outside and play in the woods.
You know, like that's, that's how I see it is, uh, things
are only getting more intelligent, competing for a time,
even more, and we're feeling more pressures to, to keep up.
With this system, that's fear that we're born into.
And so, you know, I, I hope that it leads to more authentic relationships and
(33:45):
human connections and get togethers and, uh, just being real with each other as
opposed to trying to know everything and running every single thing through ai.
I think at this point in time, we're all, a lot of us,
myself included, we're trying to be perfectionists.
Well, you know, this information's out there and
can I be an expert in this and an expert in that.
(34:06):
And at the end of the day, it's, we're human.
Make the mistake, fail forward and move on.
Yeah, I mean the, just the, the idea you, you mentioning
like people being on their phones and devices, I'm thinking
now of like the, what they talk about with the Gen Z stare.
I don't know if you've heard of this one.
Um, I, I think, I think by that nod you have, but, but that Zi stare, I,
(34:28):
I've experienced it.
You know, I have too, and I'm, I'm like, I'm so grateful.
They put a name on it and I was like, oh, I know what that is now.
Like, I've seen that a bunch recently and didn't know what I was dealing with.
But yeah, it's, it's just people trying to explore that,
understand that that whole psychology behind, and a
lot of it comes from like a disconnect with technology.
(34:48):
And I'm gonna sound like an old man saying that these kids
these days, but it really is like just, you know, you don't.
You just don't know how to interact with people, or you think it's
funny to be that kind of rude to people because you don't understand,
you know, the basic decency behind human, human interaction with
strangers, and it's just a wild, wild future that we potentially have.
(35:12):
But I, I agree with you.
I want us to get back to more.
Um, authentic connections and hopefully this technology at some point will make
it to where we actually don't need to be in front of a screen as frequently.
We can be more face-to-face as we were joking
about before the interview got started.
Um, you know, maybe there's a time that comes where we
have to have a podcast face-to-face because it's the
(35:34):
only way to prove the authenticity of the interviews.
Um, but yeah, it's just the, the wild world we're living in.
I agree wildly.
And, you know, I, I think, you know, something relevant for, for our
conversation here is I think the landscape of business is changing where it's
not so much what can you do individually, but it's about creating systems.
(35:57):
And I think that's where the, the age of AI, per se, is
leading us to how can we create systems and become operators
rather than just doers and putting everything on our plate.
And I think that's what's gonna separate.
The next wave of businesses is, how can I operate and manage as
opposed to let me just put everything on my plate until I'm drowning.
(36:20):
That's a good point.
That's, that's actually a really good point because, you
know, I, I think just on the small business side of what
we do, um, the more I can use AI and leverage AI to.
Smooth our operations out, the more I'm
trying to do, because that's a huge help.
You know, we don't use it so much externally with production, but with,
um, internal stuff, like if we can find a way to, you know, make it to
(36:43):
where a client drops a folder in, it goes to this place and does all
that, like all those simple operational things make a huge difference.
And I can just see in the future how more and
more of that will become relevant and important.
That's a good point.
I like that.
It's almost like the, the CEO mindset I see of, you know, how can
I, how can I, even if you're managing AI systems, so be it, but
(37:04):
taking you out and realizing that you need to have that bird's idea.
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
And, and I mean, I don't know if you've heard this, but I've,
I've heard a lot of rumors around like, oh, CEOs are the ones
that risk the most by AI actually, because of how they can
view systems and view processes and, you know, make decisions.
And it's like, why do you need a CEO and why do you need to pay a
(37:26):
millions of dollars if you could have an AI make those same decisions?
Yeah.
We're seeing the same with coders.
I mean, what coders at Google, we're making three, four, $500,000 easy a year.
And, you know, we are importing talent from all across the world.
And now you have coders that are managing
AI systems and just verifying their work.
So you have a, you have a team of 10.
(37:48):
I keep hearing this, the rule of 10 all the time.
You had these 10 performers, one was the best performer.
They're keeping that best performer, loading
it through AI and just verifying the work.
I mean, it's, it's unfortunate for those people and don't get me
wrong, and I, you know, definitely feel for them, their families, and.
Have you and the skillset that they've spent so much time learning, um, this is
(38:09):
the way the world and where it's going right now of, of, once again, adaptation.
How are we gonna adapt and become operators rather than just doers?
Yeah, there's a lot of adaption or a adaption, that's not the right word.
Adaptation is the word I was going for there.
Um, there's a lot of adaptation that has to happen
I think in the next few months, if anything.
(38:30):
Um, and in the coming years for sure.
So that's great.
Well, Josh, this has been awesome.
I've really enjoyed this conversation.
Before we wrap up, I always like to ask this one question.
You may may already know it, um, but the one I like to
ask at the end is, what brand do you admire the most?
And just to add a little more color to that, when I say admire, I don't
just mean like what's your favorite brand that you use, but what's
(38:52):
maybe a brand that has even inspired how you build your business.
So with that in mind, what, what brand do you admire the most?
You know, a against popular opinion these days.
I think Tesla is a great example of American entrepreneurship.
Love Musk or hate him, whatever someone's view is.
I mean, they came out of nowhere and took down legacy
car makers that have been there for over a hundred years.
(39:16):
Practically overnight, under the radar.
And now you have the richest man in the world who, who
built this, this company somehow and came out of nowhere.
So, um, you know, there's a lot of things they don't do right.
And I'll be the first person to tell you
that, but there's, I, I will not hold that.
But I think what they built in such a short time is inspiring and
it, it shows you what we can create in this country, uh, on a dime.
(39:36):
Um, you know, there still is.
Some elements of freedom, uh, in the country.
Um, but just seeing what they built, how they
built it, um, and revolutionizing the game.
I, I, I really look at that model and I say, uh, wow.
I don't know how you did it.
Going against the automakers, going against
the regulators, going against the lobbyists.
(39:58):
Um, it's definitely an interesting journey to see.
Yeah.
Oh, it's fascinating.
I, I can remember seeing, um, an episode of Top Gear
where Tesla came on and they drove, um, the original
Tesla, which was just a modified Lotus Elise around, yeah.
The little Roadster.
And I actually saw one of those, um, I used to live in Lexington,
(40:19):
Kentucky, and they had this big event every year called the Concourse gans.
And every year was a different theme for cars.
In one year, they had, um, Tesla as not the
main manufacturer, but they had a, that Tesla.
Roads through there, and it was before Tesla was, you know, a household name.
So it was really cool to see them back then and be
like, I wonder if that company will be anything.
(40:39):
That'd be cool to see them do something
successful and then to see where they're at.
I, I agree from a, you know, from a marketing, a branding
perspective, like they've done an incredible job.
I, I, no doubt about that.
The person, the person most in charge for things right now.
Got some questions about, but
wholeheartedly agree.
Wholeheartedly agree.
I mean, the fact that they built a car that can be faster than
(41:00):
a Ferrari or a Lamborghini, uh, the car is 10 20 x the price.
I mean, that's, that's nothing short of incredible.
Oh yeah.
No, not at all.
Not at all.
And I think that's fascinating.
So great.
That's awesome.
Well, Josh, where can people find you?
Where can people connect with you if they want to learn
more about, be kept up or just connect with you in person?
(41:21):
Yeah, definitely.
LinkedIn is the way to go for me.
Joshua Kak, K-O-P-A-C.
Uh, website is b kept up.com.
And uh, if you're attending Affiliate Summit or any of the, uh,
affiliate shows, money 2020, uh, affiliate Summit West, MAU, you name it.
I'd love to see you there.
Feel free to reach out.
Awesome.
Again, Chris, thank you for having me on.
(41:41):
Josh, thank you so much.
I really appreciate it today.
It's been a lot of fun.
Sure
thing.
Thanks again.
Thanks for checking out this episode of We Built This Brand.
Don't forget to like and subscribe on your player of choice.
You can also keep up with the podcast on we built this brand.com.
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sure to tell all your friends about it so we can continue to build this brand.
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