February 13, 2025 • 45 mins
Ever wondered about the transformative power that lies within the act of mothering? Join us for an insightful conversation with Nicole Longmire, a thought leader in public health, as we explore her revolutionary concept of "mothering as medicine." Nicole illuminates how mothering extends beyond the traditional boundaries of parenting, offering a universal healing energy that nurtures both ourselves and those around us. Through personal anecdotes and professional insights, Nicole challenges the fragmented nature of the wellness industry, advocating for a holistic approach that addresses the deep, often unspoken, needs of mothers facing identity shifts and societal pressures.
Our discussion delves into the delicate balance between nurturing a child and fostering their independence, questioning societal norms that narrowly define mothering as mere nurturing. Nicole and I reflect on historical mother-centric communities and the essential need for robust support systems that prioritize mothers' well-being. Excitingly, we introduce innovative concepts like "community as medicine" and social prescriptions, which advocate for community care as a vital component alongside self-care. The conversation highlights how reconnecting with these support networks can empower mothers to thrive amidst the complex dynamics of parenting and beyond.
Healing generational mother wounds becomes a focal point as we unpack the emotional intricacies of motherhood, particularly for those carrying past traumas. We discuss the importance of cultivating a nurturing inner voice and the courage needed to confront personal shadows for healthy mothering. Our dialogue emphasizes the necessity of acknowledging societal and generational influences, encouraging mothers to trust their intuition and embrace vulnerability in their parenting journey. As we express heartfelt gratitude for the communities uplifting mothers at every stage, from new motherhood to the empty nest, this episode celebrates the continuous journey of motherhood and the powerful collective healing it fosters.
Nicole's Website: https://www.mothernurtureconsulting.com/
Nicole's Insta: https://www.instagram.com/motheringismedicine
Find Joya at VIBOLOGIE
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Joya (00:03):
On today's episode of we Woke Up Like this, I am speaking
with Nicole Longmire.
Her work is deeply personal andshe believes that mothering is
medicine.
She believes that mothering isnot a concept limited to
parenting.
It's a universal healing energyavailable to us all.
It's the act of nurturingyourself, others and the world
(00:26):
around you with compassion, loveand intention.
She believes that through thepractices of mothering ourselves
, we can rediscover ourwholeness, and when we mother
ourselves and others, we createa ripple effect of healing,
strength and resilience.
Her mission is to help you tapinto this transformative power,
(00:47):
embracing it as a source ofcomfort, clarity and courage.
Enjoy the show, nicole.
Thank you so much for joiningme on we Woke Up Like this today
, and I'm so, so excited to talkto you about your wealth of
wisdom on the topic of motheringas medicine.
Nicole (01:08):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited as well.
What?
Joya (01:12):
is mothering as medicine.
What does that mean to you?
Nicole (01:16):
Yeah, so it is sort of just a concept.
I think that really kind ofcame to me organically.
Concept, I think that, you know, really kind of came to me
organically.
And when I zoom out and sort ofthink about how to answer that
question, I feel like it'sreally important to sort of
(01:37):
acknowledge, like this healingand wellness space that we're in
right now.
Wellness is, you know, abuzzword.
Everybody's talking about howto be well, how to be healed,
and it sort of feels, to me atleast, like things are getting a
(01:57):
little bit fragmented andwellness is supposed to be this
like holistic thing and wellnessis supposed to be this like
holistic thing, right, but nowwe have, like your healer for
the chakras and your Reiki andyour aromatherapy and your talk
therapy, your somatic coaches,your womb healers.
I mean, you know, I could go on.
And so for me, my backgroundbeing in public health and the
(02:23):
bulk of my work currently beingwith women in postpartum,
specifically dealing with thattransition to motherhood,
feeding their babies and all ofthe issues that sort of can come
with that I really started tonotice that when women were
(02:45):
coming to me with a challengeright, let's take breastfeeding
their baby they're trying to dothis big thing.
They're trying to feed theirbaby from their body and they're
they're really feeling broken.
They're really feeling, youknow, kind of hopeless sometimes
.
And when we can get to theother side of that which is much
(03:08):
of the time, you know I don'twant to say all of the times you
know, sometimes things you knowtake different turns and we
have to pivot.
But what I started seeing wasthese women sort of coming out
the, and I realized it wasn'tjust their breastfeeding
experience that we had fixed orthat we had saved.
(03:33):
There was like this whole new,like life that was coming back
into this person in front of me,and it was like her entire lens
honestly, her entire lens thatshe began to see herself through
as a mother really changed.
And so what that told me is thatthere must be a deeper thing
(03:56):
here.
There must be like a deeperissue or a deeper wound.
And it got me thinking.
My background is in publichealth.
It got me thinking about beinga grad student and learning
about early childhood trauma andthe ACEs study, which I'm sure
you're familiar, and the workaround obesity and trauma, and I
(04:19):
was like, okay, hold on,there's something else here with
these women.
You know they're.
They're not broken, they'rejust alone.
And it was like if I couldwrite a prescription, the script
would say like mothering, youneed mothering.
And that's just kind of whereit started for me and and opened
(04:41):
up you know a whole lot ofother things, but that's really
sort of the origination pointwas again this realization.
You know that there wassomething so much deeper going
on, and then so much deeperthat's repaired when we can get
a woman to the other side ofthose struggles.
Joya (04:59):
And when you're saying struggles, are you talking about
, like new baby struggles, beinga new mom struggles,
breastfeeding struggles all ofthose things that come along
with being a new mother whenyou're like, literally one day
you're this person and literallythe next day here's your baby.
You are now another person withthis permanent job.
Nicole (05:19):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Most of the women that I workwith, I work with women
exclusively, absolutely so.
Most of the women that I workwith, I work with women
exclusively.
And most of my role is withexactly those new mothers, those
postpartum women.
They're super vulnerable, youknow, maybe they've, they've had
you know this really unexpected.
You know, birth, sometimesbirth trauma I do a lot of work
(05:40):
in that, in that area as well,and most of these women are
coming with these with thesebreastfeeding issues and this
insecurity and, yeah, justreally struggling with this
brand new identity and this bigjob that they feel like they
thought they were prepared for.
But there's like nothing on theregistry.
That's like actually, you knowsolving the problems that they
(06:03):
are finding.
Where's the instruction book?
It didn't come with right.
Who didn't get me that?
Who didn't register for that?
You?
Joya (06:09):
know, yeah, wow, you've hit on something I'm so curious
about now and because this, soI'm like, oh, I wish I knew you
23 years ago when I had my firstchild the wound, the mothering
wound of mothers who mothers,who need mothering, that is, I
mean just when you said that she, the mother, needs mothering.
(06:30):
Can you say a little bit moreabout your experience around
that?
What does that mean?
Nicole (06:34):
Yeah, absolutely Well.
First I'll say I wish I hadalso had me um 14 years ago,
when I had my first um.
I knew none of this and so,again, this is a very you know,
we kind of learn through our owntrial by fire and then, yeah,
sort of culminating in like thework that I do.
But, yeah, so I think there'stwo parts to that.
(06:55):
One is just sort of culturallywe have lost, have lost, you
know, this communal living,we've lost the village, we've
lost the wisdom of women and ourown bodies.
And so often I have to remindyoung mothers of that when they
(07:16):
say I don't understand, like Ishould know how to do this.
This is natural.
You know what is wrong with meand you know I asked them like
did you grow up?
You know what is wrong with meand you know I asked them like,
did did you grow up?
You know seeing women feedingtheir babies all the time and
and did you, have you seen birth?
And you know, and they're lookat me like no, of course not,
like that's why you don't knowwhat you're doing, because you
know we've lost that piece.
(07:37):
And so it's and it's not justthis generation of of you know
young mothers, mothers now thatare having babies, their mothers
and then even really theirmothers.
So we kind of have threegenerations now where we've put
so much faith and trust and sortof relinquished some power, you
(08:00):
know, I think to themedicalization of you know
everything from pregnancy tobirth to feeding, that we've
lost some of that you know humanfactor and that human wisdom.
And then there's sort of thisother piece which is really the
mother wound.
And when all of this sort ofwas starting to bubble up for me
(08:22):
and I was making all theseconnections, it really kind of
led me down this path oflearning about the.
For me and I was, I was makingall these connections, it it
really kind of led me down thispath of learning about the
mother wound.
And there's some really greatresearchers out there and some
some good books that have beenwritten on the topic, but it's
it's really about the level ofkind of disconnect that women
(08:42):
have from their femininity,their bodies, the earth, and we
can trace this back generations,and so it's not so much about
you know, I have a goodrelationship with my mom or I
have a bad relationship with mymom.
It's her relationship with hermom and hers with her mom.
(09:02):
There's sort of this likeancestral thread that is just so
fascinating.
And then of course, lots ofpeople don't have a great
relationship with their mom, orit's it's maybe superficial, or
there's there's some level oflike just getting along, or, you
know, masking or trying toplease, and so you know how well
(09:26):
our mothers kind of receivedmothering is going to dictate
how well they mother us.
And then when we have ourbabies, you know the blueprints
either there or it's not.
Joya (09:39):
Yeah, oh, my gosh.
I mean, everybody who knows meor has been listening to me for
a while knows that I'm a nine onthe aces.
So the trauma that I grew upwith was really extreme, really
massive, big, and the motheringwound was huge.
Like I grew up with a motherwho constantly told me she hated
me, she wished she would haveaborted me.
I ruined her life, like I triedto do, like this super mom,
(10:03):
like trying to figure it outbecause I didn't have that role
modeling right, and so what thatled me to, of course, was
burnout, number one, extremeburnout, not taking care of
myself at all.
And then that realization thatmy parenting, instead of being
ruled by love which it was ruledby love, of course, but it was
(10:24):
also ruled by fear, and thatkind of energy is not
sustainable.
And so I love that you're outhere talking about this and
doing this work.
So if I were a woman who cameto you and I'm feeling like this
and I'm overwhelmed, I'm buried, I'm drowning myself in my, in
(10:45):
trying to be perfect, what doyou say to this person?
How do you start to help andwork with this woman?
Nicole (10:51):
That's a really big question, right?
I think that one of the thingsthat I've learned is Asking
questions is oftentimes moreprofound than giving answers.
And so asking you you know, ifyou're in front of me what you
(11:13):
think about this, like where doyou feel this in your body?
Like, where is this overwhelmcoming from?
You know let's drill down intothis a little bit Now I'm not a
mental health licensed therapist.
I am certified in perinatalmental health but I'm not a
licensed therapist, so I have tobe very careful, you know, with
my scope of practice.
(11:33):
But I'm also trained in birthtrauma processing, and so
there's a lot of things thatactually tie back to the birth
and then even tie back to likekind of your I don't want to say
like your own birth.
There are some people you knowwho do, who study that and but,
but really tied back to like howyou were nurtured and mothered,
(11:55):
right, and so, like you said,those fears that we bring in
whether we're bringing them intoour birth or bringing them into
our birth, we're bringing theminto our transition into
motherhood lead us to do thesekind of maladaptive things that
we think are really healing.
We think I'm going to go intothis with this new baby and do
(12:17):
the opposite.
Because number one, that willbe better for my baby because I
know what I had was awful, butnumber two, maybe it will sort
of soothe my wound a little bit.
Whether we realize it or not,it'll soothe my wound a little
bit, and it does until itdoesn't, because it's not the
whole picture.
(12:37):
There's still kind of your ownwork outside of your mother, you
being a mother and you doingthe work of mothering.
That really needs to be lookedat there.
So yeah, it's, if I havesomebody who's really struggling
in this bigger way and we'renot getting anywhere, let's say
with the breastfeeding issue, oryou know she's really having
(13:00):
trouble implementing you know acare plan or something like that
really having troubleimplementing.
You know a care plan orsomething like that, I kind of
pause everything and I startasking some questions and even
if they're rhetorical or thingsthat she doesn't necessarily
even need to share with me, thegoal is to have her start to
question these things and bringsome awareness to what might be
going on.
(13:20):
You know, under the surface alittle bit.
Joya (13:23):
So powerful and I love that you ask questions because
you're exactly right that thatthat brings up their own answers
from within.
And even as you were sayingthat, I mean I think you hit
something so powerful on thehead that it's like this.
The question that I did askmyself when I found out I was
pregnant was like how would Ihave wanted to be mothered?
And I think I mistook motheredwith smothered and I really
(13:46):
overcompensated.
Nicole (13:47):
You know, and I think you just said something really,
really important too which isthis mothered and smothered
thing.
I think that when we talk aboutmothering and I'll ask this of
you know pregnant women, youknow what is what is mothering
look like to you.
Like when I say becoming amother, like what does that
entail?
What is that?
You know what does that looklike.
(14:08):
Or when I'll say you have theseplans you know to to feed your
baby with your body, tell me why.
And 9.9 times out of 10, theanswer is bonding, nurturing,
connection.
You know that's what we talkabout, right, and so we equate
mothering with that, withnurturing and caregiving, and
that is a huge piece of it.
(14:30):
In no way am I dismissing it.
But that's not the mother'sonly role.
The mother also has a reallyimportant role, which is to kind
of be like the initiator, tokind of like help the baby bird
out of the nest, to kind of likehelp the baby bird out of the
nest.
And so we forget about thatpart and we forget that we have
(14:50):
to have that foundation ofnurturing and all that baby
wearing and all that co-sleepingand all that contact and all
that body feeding and thosecontact naps and all those
things really do set up abeautiful foundation.
But the other part of your jobis coming, which is sort of this
you know, I'm in that, my son's14.
And so I'm I'm realizing like,oh, my instinct is to hold on
(15:13):
because that soothes me, butthat's not what my child needs,
and so, yeah, it's kind of apush pull, but both parts are
really, really important.
Joya (15:25):
I really appreciate that and I mean how you're talking
about these.
Oh gosh, there's.
My brain is just wrappingaround this concept of mothering
because it's just so big.
It's such a big topic and youknow that our roles as mothers
changes over time.
And I remember reading a book.
When you know, being thevoracious reader and studier
(15:47):
that I am, I read a book, Iremember it.
I cannot remember what it was,but I do remember a sentence in
there, and it said a good parentis working themselves out of a
job.
Nicole (15:56):
Yeah, no, there really isn't.
And there is not an end to yourown need to be mothered.
Joya (16:03):
So let's talk about that.
I want to talk about your needto be mothered.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
I want to talk about your needto be mothered and how your
mothering can be your ownmedicine.
I think you really hit onsomething important there.
Nicole (16:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's tough, right, we livein a culture that loves to
divide mothers.
We live in a culture that stillvery much values productivity
and bouncing back and gettingback and going back to work, all
(16:36):
these things, you knowreturning instead of really
appreciating and understandingwhat this evolution or
metamorphosis of a womanbecoming a mother really is
about.
And you know, historically, ifyou look at like hunter-gatherer
, like hunter-gatherer, you knowprimitive ways of living.
(16:58):
The mother and baby, forexample, this dyad, this
mother-baby, are absolutely putin sort of the center of, you
know, the operation, rightCenter of the village.
And we tend to romanticize that.
We tend to say like, oh look,we used to celebrate mothers and
(17:20):
we used to, you know, justreally worship these new mothers
when they had their babies.
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn'tthat.
It was that we understood thatif we don't mother her, she
can't mother that baby, and ifthat baby doesn't get mothered,
then that baby doesn't survive,and then our tribe doesn't
(17:41):
survive, doesn't survive, andthen our tribe doesn't survive.
So it's kind of a survivalstrategy, you know, to really
center mothers and be, you know,mother centric.
But now we're so far from thatthat even the mothers are
uncomfortable centeringthemselves.
So I see mothers that are likeI don't want to burden people, I
don't want to ask for help, andit's like if we can't center
(18:05):
ourselves, we can't expect ourculture to center us.
And so just understanding thatit is survival right, and we now
I mean it's 2025.
We want to thrive in motherhood.
We want it to be this wonderful, joyful thing and we deserve to
(18:27):
have a joyful experience.
Not that it's going to be thatway all the time.
We're not just talking aboutsurviving, but we really won't
survive.
If we don't start centeringmothers, we will continue to see
high maternal mortality,especially when it comes to, you
(18:48):
know, suicide.
We have a very high maternalsuicide rate and that is just
absolutely unacceptable.
Joya (18:56):
Just from lack of support.
Nicole (18:57):
So just from lack of support.
Yeah, lack of support andreally understanding you know
what support is.
And so community, you know welove to shout self-care.
Joya (19:10):
Yeah.
Nicole (19:10):
Screaming at these moms self-care, self-care, self-care
but really what they need iscommunity care and really what
they need is the medicine ofcommunity and that's kind of
this other piece.
As I was coming up with thisconcept of like mothering is
medicine, and doing my researchand digging in because I just
(19:31):
wanted to get my teeth oneverything you know that was
related to this, I came acrossthis community is medicine model
.
That's part of something calledsocial prescriptions.
Joya (19:43):
Yes, and that's what I wanted to get in.
Next, tell me, all of this isamazing.
Nicole (19:47):
It's fascinating.
It's really, really fascinating.
So social prescriptions are andif you look it up, so if you
Google it, everything that yousee is like I think the oldest
article on it was like 2023.
Like this is new stuff thatwe're talking about, but
(20:08):
essentially they're differenttypes of initiatives to create
interventions that are notmedical, or interventions that
are not not medical orpharmacological.
So, essentially, like if wethought like big pharma is all
the, you know all the drugs,this is like big hug.
Oh, I love big hug.
(20:29):
This is big hug.
This is only to get togetherand like fixing along.
You know it's, it's and doctorsactually can prescribe these
different interventions, asthese little programs are
popping up to really addresslike social needs.
And we know we have this, youknow loneliness epidemic, this
(20:53):
isolation epidemic, and so it'sreally exciting to see that it's
happening and we just need itto happen faster.
Where are these groups?
(21:35):
Where are these socialprescriptions that doctors or
people are?
Again, this is new, so there'snot a lot, yeah, but I also was
able to find some research.
There are a few articles onPubMed, world Health
Organization, national Instituteof Health.
I was able to find a fewdifferent articles and things
(21:59):
kind of about this, thismovement, but yeah, social
Prescribing USA is a great placeto start for people to kind of
learn more.
Joya (22:07):
Well, I've never heard of this and I absolutely love it
and I can't wait to dive in andeducate myself around it.
And I see it not only beinghelpful I mean not even helpful,
necessary for moms and new moms, but also for elderly people,
people who are shut in.
I mean, there is a lonelinessepidemic going on in this
(22:28):
country and having this as ananswer, I just my heart is just
like oh, yes, yes, yes, theseare the kind of initiatives that
we need, right?
It's like how about hugs beforedrugs?
Try that and see if theoxytocin and human connection
that you're receiving helps youto feel better.
(22:50):
Because I know when I had myfirst child and you mentioned
maternal suicide rates and beinga suicide attempt survivor when
I was in my early 20s and thenI had my daughter, I went
through terrible postpartumdepression terrible, and it was
suicidal thoughts.
And those thoughts were ruledby that fearful mothering voice
(23:12):
that were that was saying yourchild deserves a better mother
than you.
I remember that voice just keptsaying that over and over and
over.
And of course, my doctor'sanswer was take these drugs,
which I did not do.
I read the.
I'm one of those people whoreads the pamphlet all the way
through and I prescribed myself,without even knowing what I was
(23:34):
doing, a social prescriptionthat I went and joined.
I immediately joined a Gymboree.
I remember there was a Gymboreedown the street from me and
they had a newborn baby Gymboreething.
So I went there and I justremember meeting other moms of
newborns and that, thoseconnections, and I'm actually
still friends with a couple ofthose women from when that yeah,
that time, and that was suchmedicine for me.
(23:59):
It really was.
It helped my postpartum just totalk about it with these other
women.
I'm feeling this way.
Are you feeling this way?
Are these feelings normal?
Is there something wrong withme?
Nicole (24:10):
Like all these questions , Right, right, and you know
there's a couple of things.
One thing you said was sort ofthis fear voice and kind of
tying back to like the role of amother.
You know, whether we want to ornot, our voice as mothers
(24:31):
becomes our child's inner voice,right?
What we fill them with kind ofbecomes their narrative, and so
what your mother put into youhas become your inner voice, and
so there's only so much healingthat's going to come from just
doing the opposite, because youstill have that voice.
(24:53):
And so learning to sort ofcultivate your own like inner
mother voice is like a separatething.
And it's really important toacknowledge that for anyone who
is coming into motherhood with atrauma like that, there's a big
gap in between what you got andwhat you needed.
(25:13):
And addressing that gap,whether that's through trauma
work or inner child or partswork or, you know, even just
learning about like boundariesand how to embrace, rest and
bear witness and self-care andall of these things, these are
all the things our mother shouldhave helped us learn how to do,
(25:35):
you know, and been that safeplace for us, and so we can
learn to sort of become that forourselves and and that's a
separate thing from just doingthe opposite with with our own,
with our own babies.
So yeah, I wanted to wanted tojust mention that.
And then what you said aboutjoining the, the Gymboree.
(25:57):
You know I don't know if you'refamiliar, I'm sure you've seen
it the documentary about theblue zones.
Yes, yes I have.
Joya (26:04):
So, okay, we've got people who are listening, who don't
know what that is.
Go ahead and tell about alittle bit about that.
Nicole (26:11):
So blue zones are really interesting there.
It's just these pockets ofpopulations um around the world
and there's only a handful ofthem, I want to say like six or
seven.
There's not very many um, andthey're areas where the lifespan
is like way longer than theaverage around the area.
(26:34):
So we've got people living likeinto like late 90s, over a
hundred um, and so thedocumentary really explores like
what's the secret?
What are these people doing?
And it's been a while sinceI've seen it, but my very
favorite village that theyspotlighted, I believe, was in
Italy and these women live to belike 100 years old and what do
(26:58):
they do all day?
They like make pasta and laugh.
Like that's literally whatthey're doing and that's the
secret and that's that was like.
Their answer was like we spendtime together doing things that
bring us joy.
Joya (27:14):
I mean okay, right there, so key yeah.
And I mean I know we touched ona little bit about the mother
wound and I'm sure peoplelistening know what that is.
I want to know what is goodmothering?
Do you know what good motheringlooks like?
Nicole (27:32):
Good mothering.
I'm pausing because I thinkthat I want to be very careful
in how I answer the question.
Just a little context, becauseI work in this mothering space.
There's a lot of judgment aboutthat question and about the
(27:58):
variety of answers that questionand about the variety of
answers, and so I do not endorsethings like just support
whatever a mom wants to do, andI think we've decided that
that's the best way to makethings better is just say,
(28:18):
whatever it is you're doing, wesupport you.
But that's not really true,because we don't support trauma
and we don't support abuse.
I mean, like everyone has aline.
So then people go, ok, well, wesupport everything except that.
And so then it becomes like,well, where's the line?
Right, so it's not aboutsupport all mothers.
(28:40):
Everyone's doing their best,because the truth is everyone
isn't doing their best and I'msorry, you know, they're just
not Now.
Maybe there's limitations andthey're doing the best with what
they have.
I mean, that's sort of a it's anuanced conversation, but you
know, we do know what harmschildren and so obviously you
(29:02):
know that's pretty black andwhite.
You know like we don't.
Good mothering is notabandonment and trauma and
telling them you wish they werenever born and things like that.
But it's also not just wingingit, doing your best.
So I think there's componentsof good mothering that I can
(29:23):
confidently say.
One is being willing to sort offace your shadows and face the
unhealed parts of you that aregoing to come up when you become
(29:43):
a mother.
So if you're not willing tolook at it, you are going to be
denying yourself healing andreally your child the
opportunity to have you know youdoing your best from the most
healed place.
So it doesn't mean you have tolike resolve all your trauma
(30:04):
before you become a parent, butunderstanding that these wounds
do come up, they do resurface,they do recycle, things are
passed down intergenerationallyand so being willing to look at
it.
The other thing is and it verymuch goes with that concept of
(30:27):
being willing to sort of look atthe shadows.
We hear a lot about peoplebreaking cycles right, like be a
cycle breaker.
Be a cycle breaker, yeah, andmaybe it's semantics.
For me, language really mattersand words really matter.
For me, language really mattersand words really matter.
(30:48):
So I'm going to pick it apartjust a little bit briefly.
I think that sometimes there canbe a lot of shame and a lot of
fear when it comes to breakingcycles, especially if you still
have your mother, for example,in your life, because now you're
making a judgment about whatshe did and maybe she doesn't
know.
You feel that way, right, maybeshe does, maybe she doesn't,
(31:10):
and maybe for your safety andfor your just quality of life,
we kind of want to not bringthat up.
You know, I'm not saying youhave to like go tell your mother
all the things that she did,but thinking about breaking
cycles like you did this thingto me and I'm going to break
this cycle, right, that can bemet with some resistance.
(31:33):
I've met women that are likethat feels a little
uncomfortable and so reframingit as we're going to be cycle
starters, we're going to bestarters of something new,
beautiful, that's so much moreempowering.
To be starters of something new, that's so much more empowering
, it's so much more empoweringand I think it's also kind of
(31:53):
freeing, like okay.
Joya (31:55):
When you said that, I even felt myself just go, oh, I
could start.
I don't have to destroyanything, I could just start
from where I'm at.
Nicole (32:03):
Right, yeah, right.
It doesn't ask of us to go digup all the trauma or go confront
the person, which you knowmight sound like the opposite of
what I just said, like bewilling to face the shadows, but
it's really not.
It's.
It's about, you know, notspending energy.
You know your energy is yourcurrency and so, especially when
(32:26):
you're in the throes ofmothering and you're like how do
I figure this all out and howdo I deal with my, my stuff
that's coming up, you know Idon't have time in the day to
even take a shower, much lessbreak cycles, like, what are we
talking about?
You know, it really can be anempowering and more motivating
and kind of liberating reframeto say let's just be a cycle
(32:48):
starter.
Joya (32:49):
I really love that.
I'm still not close to my momand I did a lot of forgiveness
work, of which I haven't toldher because I'm like it doesn't
involve her, it's my stuff,that's my stuff, and so it's for
me to do that for myself, notfor her.
This is not for her, this isfor me, so that I can start a
(33:09):
cycle of inner freedom,releasing the judgment,
releasing those comparisons andreally knowing that from that
place, I truly am doing the bestthat I can because I'm not
consciously trying to keepmyself attached to what I think
I should be doing or what itshould look like, and I just
love that.
(33:29):
And I really appreciated youranswer too and thank you for
that.
And, as you were saying, and Isaid, you know, I should have
asked what is a healthy mothermothering look like as opposed
to good mothering, which is acompletely different question,
and I'm big on words too andit's I mean, it's the same
question but different.
So I appreciate that youactually answered it from the
(34:02):
point of view of healthymothering.
What does healthy motheringlook like?
Because you know, we tend tolook at our parents as objects
rather than as human beings.
These are objects, this is whatthey're supposed, this
situation, and you know, and Ithink it's really difficult to
have these conversations aboutmothering and motherhood as well
, because it is so individuated-yeah, well, it's.
Nicole (34:18):
Also we can't put this entirely on one person you know
we've you've got your mother andthen her mother, and then you
know we've got kind of like theline epigenetics, yes yeah, and
and how these women, you know,in our, in our lineage, were
affected by, you know,demographically, economically,
(34:43):
you know, this kind ofpatriarchal, you know system
that we're in, all of thosethings are factors, and so we
kind of just inherit this likeball of like I call it a, like a
blood clot, like it's just likethis big, like clot, and so
when it finally gets to someone,somebody eventually has to sort
(35:05):
of take a look at it and startsort of like dissecting it and
pulling it apart a little bit.
And so it's a messy process andit doesn't really it doesn't
happen in one generation.
And that's why I also reallylike cycle starters is that
we're just starting it.
My job is to start it Right andthen your, your child's job is
to keep it going, or even starttheir own.
Joya (35:26):
Yeah, sure, yeah, and I do .
I really love that Because Ifeel, you know, when I had my
children, I didn't, I mean andthis was before the I mean the
internet was there, but not likeit is today, right, so with
people having these kinds ofconversations everywhere, and so
it was really kind of justfiguring it out and even though
I didn't have that languaging ofI'm going to start a new cycle,
(35:49):
that's exactly what I did,because I didn't.
I'm like I know I don't want totake what I know with me into
this.
I knew what I didn't want, andso I was kind of just trying to
figure out what I did want, andI don't know if that's a great
place to start or not, butthat's.
That was really kind of all I,all I could do.
Nicole (36:06):
Yeah, of course, I think you know the great.
The right place to start iswhere you are, and my husband
shared a quote with me recentlyand I can't remember who said it
, but it feels fitting the bestdecision is to do the right
thing, the second best decisionis to do the wrong thing, and
(36:26):
the worst decision is to donothing.
Oh, there it is.
So, yeah, it would be great ifyou just got it right, but the
second best thing is to just try, and maybe it turned out to not
be the right thing.
But to do nothing, to changenothing, is the worst thing that
(36:47):
you can do.
And so when we show up that wayfor our kids, especially as they
get older, you know which is,of course, a whole nother
conversation about how do youmother these like teenagers and
young adults, and really showingup for them and being honest
and and sharing things you knowabout, like, hey, I tried that
and it didn't work, you know,and I've hurt your feelings or
(37:11):
I've broken your trust, or, youknow, showing up in these
vulnerable ways so that they cansort of see the model you know
also helps with that cyclestarting as well 100% and you
know, I have conversations withmy own children that I still
can't have with my mom, becausethey're that deep and that
honest and that vulnerable andand so I, you know, I really
(37:35):
just want to say to all the momsout there who are doing the
best that they can and know thatthey're doing the best that
they can, that you're doing agreat job and your kids love you
that you're doing a great joband your kids love you, they do.
And if you're finding it harderthan it should be, and sometimes
moms will say, well, I don'tknow, was it supposed to be this
(37:55):
hard?
But your intuition is actuallypretty strong.
I meet moms and they're like Iknew it would be hard, but I
don't think it's supposed tofeel like this.
You know, if it's feelingharder than it should be, that
that could be.
You know something that needsattention.
(38:16):
You know there's, there's awound there and you know the
first place to look is probablyyour birth.
You know, again, I run into alot of women who are having
issues postpartum and I say,tell me about that birth.
You know, and I run into a lotof women who are having issues
postpartum and I say, tell meabout that birth, you know.
And then the floodgates openand and then usually it goes
into something before the birthand then her feelings about her
self-worth and before you knowit we're talking about, you know
(38:37):
, seven-year-old Susie and youknow her, her mother wound.
So if it's feeling harder thanit should be, if your mental
health is, you know, reallysuffering you know I'm not
saying that taking medication,you know, hey, I take medication
and I've had different times inmy life where it's my plan of
(39:01):
care, you know, to take care ofmyself, to take care of myself,
but it's not going to be asubstitute for doing healing
work, especially if there'strauma there or, you know, an
unhealed mother wound.
Even if you have a goodrelationship with your mother,
there's still sort of acollective wound Also it really
is yeah.
(39:21):
We've got mother earth.
Oh my gosh, she's so wounded.
You know we don't, we don'tlive in, in, in reciprocity with
the earth, and that's a woundthat we're not very in touch
with, but it's there, yeah, andit all is so much about this
energy that we're in right now.
Joya (39:42):
That's shifting very slowly, but coming much more
back into unity, consciousnessof the, honoring the feminine as
much as we've honored themasculine, and also honoring the
healthy masculine, and doingaway with this toxic masculinity
, this patriarchal masculinitythat does expect a mom to have a
baby.
Bounce back in six weeks, goback to your job, put your baby
(40:04):
in daycare and be perfectly okaywith that, and you need to be
exactly how you were before youwent on maternity leave.
Like that is just sounrealistic.
Nicole (40:13):
Yep, and it's not.
You know, just to clarify toofor anyone listening, it's not
pointing the finger at men, youknow.
No, no, no, it's not about themen.
I mean we perpetuate it too.
You know it's absolutely, it'sthe men.
I mean we, we perpetuate it too.
You know it's, it's the systems.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
Yeah, we need there's, there'sa real medicine, you know, in
(40:35):
just women gathering, um, I uhdiscovered, uh, about three
years ago, that, um, women'sretreats are like better therapy
than therapy for me.
It's so true.
Now I host retreats because I'mlike these are amazing and I
(40:56):
want women to come together andgo on retreat.
But yeah, it's a real medicinejust to be with other women,
whether we're, you know,engaging in some sort of ritual
or ceremony or grieving orsharing.
You know, is this normal?
What did you deal with?
You know?
Make pasta together.
Joya (41:13):
Laugh sign me up.
Oh my gosh, Nicole, you workwith women in such beautiful
ways, and not only from the.
You know the tangible takeaways, strategies and tools and
things that they can actually do, but also I hear your true
heart of compassion and your andthings that they can actually
do.
But also I hear your true heartof compassion and your wisdom
in how you can help coach themto through so much of what
(41:34):
they're experiencing.
Nicole (41:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, it's, it's.
I would I feel very confidentin saying that this mothering is
medicine, is it's kind of thethrough line now for me.
You know, with all of my work,whether I'm, you know, helping a
new mom figure out how to workher breast pump, you know I'm
nurturing her, I'm mothering her, I'm encouraging her in sort of
(42:00):
like the straightforward wayyou know that a mother would, or
everything from.
You know I also do lifecoaching and I host retreats and
I do birth trauma work and youknow all this other stuff.
And with women of all agesbecause, again, mothering never
ends and really the need forthat mothering and sisterhood,
(42:21):
you know which is, you know it'sall the same, you know it's all
this, this women, energy, andit's it's really important.
So, yeah, it's woven ineverything that I do.
Joya (42:31):
So beautiful?
Where can people find you whoare feeling like I need to know
who this woman is and go findher and work with her?
Where can women find you oranybody find you who wants to
know more about you and yourbeautiful work?
Nicole (42:43):
Yeah, I would love that.
So I have a small privatepractice in Melbourne, florida,
and I work with women all over.
I have had clients all over theworld because telehealth
technology is so great now.
But my company is called MotherNurture Consulting and Wellness
and mothernurtureconsultingcomis my website and it has lots of
(43:07):
ways to contact me on thewebsite.
You know email.
I've got a phone number If youwant to call me, send me a text.
You can also find me onInstagram at motheringismedicine
.
Joya (43:19):
So, Nicole, in addition, do you have anything upcoming
that people can work with you on?
Anything you have coming upsoon?
Nicole (43:27):
Yes, I have something really exciting coming March 5th
through 9th, I have a full allinclusive retreat for women,
specifically for women over 40.
So this is a little deviationfrom my work with brand new
mamas.
This is any woman over 40 goingthrough, you know, any sort of
(43:47):
shift midlife career change,divorce, empty nest, you name it
.
We're going to be gathering forfour nights and four full days
in St Augustine, Florida.
Joya (43:59):
Beautiful.
Nicole (44:01):
We still have three or four spots left, so this retreat
is going to be a pretty smallgroup.
It's going to be about 10 of usis the hope, but we would love
to fill those last few spots.
Joya (44:12):
Perfect.
Well, I'll definitely have alink to that below as well, so
if anybody feels called, theycan definitely go there.
So fabulous, and I'm just sograteful that you are in the
world doing this work for themothers, the young women who are
becoming mothers now.
Me, who, my children, are nowstill at home, but I'll be an
(44:35):
empty nester when they'refinished with school and they're
gone and it just it doesn't end.
And so I just really appreciatewhat you're doing and this, the
community, this communityaspect that you are so
passionate about, and the socialaspect of it.
I just am so grateful thatyou're out there doing the work
that you do.
Thank you.
Thank you so much Thank you forlistening to we Woke Up Like
(44:57):
this.
Your likes, comments, sharesand subscribes help this content
reach new listeners, and I soappreciate you.
And remember, luminous One,that your radiant and magnetic
presence changes the world.
On today's episode of we Woke Up Like this, I am speaking
with Nicole Longmire.
Her work is deeply personal andshe believes that mothering is
medicine.
She believes that mothering isnot a concept limited to
parenting.
It's a universal healing energyavailable to us all.
It's the act of nurturingyourself, others and the world
(00:26):
around you with compassion, loveand intention.
She believes that through thepractices of mothering ourselves
, we can rediscover ourwholeness, and when we mother
ourselves and others, we createa ripple effect of healing,
strength and resilience.
Her mission is to help you tapinto this transformative power,
(00:47):
embracing it as a source ofcomfort, clarity and courage.
Enjoy the show, nicole.
Thank you so much for joiningme on we Woke Up Like this today
, and I'm so, so excited to talkto you about your wealth of
wisdom on the topic of motheringas medicine.
Nicole (01:08):
Thank you so much for having me.
I'm excited as well.
What?
Joya (01:12):
is mothering as medicine.
What does that mean to you?
Nicole (01:16):
Yeah, so it is sort of just a concept.
I think that really kind ofcame to me organically.
Concept, I think that, you know, really kind of came to me
organically.
And when I zoom out and sort ofthink about how to answer that
question, I feel like it'sreally important to sort of
(01:37):
acknowledge, like this healingand wellness space that we're in
right now.
Wellness is, you know, abuzzword.
Everybody's talking about howto be well, how to be healed,
and it sort of feels, to me atleast, like things are getting a
(01:57):
little bit fragmented andwellness is supposed to be this
like holistic thing and wellnessis supposed to be this like
holistic thing, right, but nowwe have, like your healer for
the chakras and your Reiki andyour aromatherapy and your talk
therapy, your somatic coaches,your womb healers.
I mean, you know, I could go on.
And so for me, my backgroundbeing in public health and the
(02:23):
bulk of my work currently beingwith women in postpartum,
specifically dealing with thattransition to motherhood,
feeding their babies and all ofthe issues that sort of can come
with that I really started tonotice that when women were
(02:45):
coming to me with a challengeright, let's take breastfeeding
their baby they're trying to dothis big thing.
They're trying to feed theirbaby from their body and they're
they're really feeling broken.
They're really feeling, youknow, kind of hopeless sometimes
.
And when we can get to theother side of that which is much
(03:08):
of the time, you know I don'twant to say all of the times you
know, sometimes things you knowtake different turns and we
have to pivot.
But what I started seeing wasthese women sort of coming out
the, and I realized it wasn'tjust their breastfeeding
experience that we had fixed orthat we had saved.
(03:33):
There was like this whole new,like life that was coming back
into this person in front of me,and it was like her entire lens
honestly, her entire lens thatshe began to see herself through
as a mother really changed.
And so what that told me is thatthere must be a deeper thing
(03:56):
here.
There must be like a deeperissue or a deeper wound.
And it got me thinking.
My background is in publichealth.
It got me thinking about beinga grad student and learning
about early childhood trauma andthe ACEs study, which I'm sure
you're familiar, and the workaround obesity and trauma, and I
(04:19):
was like, okay, hold on,there's something else here with
these women.
You know they're.
They're not broken, they'rejust alone.
And it was like if I couldwrite a prescription, the script
would say like mothering, youneed mothering.
And that's just kind of whereit started for me and and opened
(04:41):
up you know a whole lot ofother things, but that's really
sort of the origination pointwas again this realization.
You know that there wassomething so much deeper going
on, and then so much deeperthat's repaired when we can get
a woman to the other side ofthose struggles.
Joya (04:59):
And when you're saying struggles, are you talking about
, like new baby struggles, beinga new mom struggles,
breastfeeding struggles all ofthose things that come along
with being a new mother whenyou're like, literally one day
you're this person and literallythe next day here's your baby.
You are now another person withthis permanent job.
Nicole (05:19):
Yeah, absolutely so.
Most of the women that I workwith, I work with women
exclusively, absolutely so.
Most of the women that I workwith, I work with women
exclusively.
And most of my role is withexactly those new mothers, those
postpartum women.
They're super vulnerable, youknow, maybe they've, they've had
you know this really unexpected.
You know, birth, sometimesbirth trauma I do a lot of work
(05:40):
in that, in that area as well,and most of these women are
coming with these with thesebreastfeeding issues and this
insecurity and, yeah, justreally struggling with this
brand new identity and this bigjob that they feel like they
thought they were prepared for.
But there's like nothing on theregistry.
That's like actually, you knowsolving the problems that they
(06:03):
are finding.
Where's the instruction book?
It didn't come with right.
Who didn't get me that?
Who didn't register for that?
You?
Joya (06:09):
know, yeah, wow, you've hit on something I'm so curious
about now and because this, soI'm like, oh, I wish I knew you
23 years ago when I had my firstchild the wound, the mothering
wound of mothers who mothers,who need mothering, that is, I
mean just when you said that she, the mother, needs mothering.
(06:30):
Can you say a little bit moreabout your experience around
that?
What does that mean?
Nicole (06:34):
Yeah, absolutely Well.
First I'll say I wish I hadalso had me um 14 years ago,
when I had my first um.
I knew none of this and so,again, this is a very you know,
we kind of learn through our owntrial by fire and then, yeah,
sort of culminating in like thework that I do.
But, yeah, so I think there'stwo parts to that.
(06:55):
One is just sort of culturallywe have lost, have lost, you
know, this communal living,we've lost the village, we've
lost the wisdom of women and ourown bodies.
And so often I have to remindyoung mothers of that when they
(07:16):
say I don't understand, like Ishould know how to do this.
This is natural.
You know what is wrong with meand you know I asked them like
did you grow up?
You know what is wrong with meand you know I asked them like,
did did you grow up?
You know seeing women feedingtheir babies all the time and
and did you, have you seen birth?
And you know, and they're lookat me like no, of course not,
like that's why you don't knowwhat you're doing, because you
know we've lost that piece.
(07:37):
And so it's and it's not justthis generation of of you know
young mothers, mothers now thatare having babies, their mothers
and then even really theirmothers.
So we kind of have threegenerations now where we've put
so much faith and trust and sortof relinquished some power, you
(08:00):
know, I think to themedicalization of you know
everything from pregnancy tobirth to feeding, that we've
lost some of that you know humanfactor and that human wisdom.
And then there's sort of thisother piece which is really the
mother wound.
And when all of this sort ofwas starting to bubble up for me
(08:22):
and I was making all theseconnections, it really kind of
led me down this path oflearning about the.
For me and I was, I was makingall these connections, it it
really kind of led me down thispath of learning about the
mother wound.
And there's some really greatresearchers out there and some
some good books that have beenwritten on the topic, but it's
it's really about the level ofkind of disconnect that women
(08:42):
have from their femininity,their bodies, the earth, and we
can trace this back generations,and so it's not so much about
you know, I have a goodrelationship with my mom or I
have a bad relationship with mymom.
It's her relationship with hermom and hers with her mom.
(09:02):
There's sort of this likeancestral thread that is just so
fascinating.
And then of course, lots ofpeople don't have a great
relationship with their mom, orit's it's maybe superficial, or
there's there's some level oflike just getting along, or, you
know, masking or trying toplease, and so you know how well
(09:26):
our mothers kind of receivedmothering is going to dictate
how well they mother us.
And then when we have ourbabies, you know the blueprints
either there or it's not.
Joya (09:39):
Yeah, oh, my gosh.
I mean, everybody who knows meor has been listening to me for
a while knows that I'm a nine onthe aces.
So the trauma that I grew upwith was really extreme, really
massive, big, and the motheringwound was huge.
Like I grew up with a motherwho constantly told me she hated
me, she wished she would haveaborted me.
I ruined her life, like I triedto do, like this super mom,
(10:03):
like trying to figure it outbecause I didn't have that role
modeling right, and so what thatled me to, of course, was
burnout, number one, extremeburnout, not taking care of
myself at all.
And then that realization thatmy parenting, instead of being
ruled by love which it was ruledby love, of course, but it was
(10:24):
also ruled by fear, and thatkind of energy is not
sustainable.
And so I love that you're outhere talking about this and
doing this work.
So if I were a woman who cameto you and I'm feeling like this
and I'm overwhelmed, I'm buried, I'm drowning myself in my, in
(10:45):
trying to be perfect, what doyou say to this person?
How do you start to help andwork with this woman?
Nicole (10:51):
That's a really big question, right?
I think that one of the thingsthat I've learned is Asking
questions is oftentimes moreprofound than giving answers.
And so asking you you know, ifyou're in front of me what you
(11:13):
think about this, like where doyou feel this in your body?
Like, where is this overwhelmcoming from?
You know let's drill down intothis a little bit Now I'm not a
mental health licensed therapist.
I am certified in perinatalmental health but I'm not a
licensed therapist, so I have tobe very careful, you know, with
my scope of practice.
(11:33):
But I'm also trained in birthtrauma processing, and so
there's a lot of things thatactually tie back to the birth
and then even tie back to likekind of your I don't want to say
like your own birth.
There are some people you knowwho do, who study that and but,
but really tied back to like howyou were nurtured and mothered,
(11:55):
right, and so, like you said,those fears that we bring in
whether we're bringing them intoour birth or bringing them into
our birth, we're bringing theminto our transition into
motherhood lead us to do thesekind of maladaptive things that
we think are really healing.
We think I'm going to go intothis with this new baby and do
(12:17):
the opposite.
Because number one, that willbe better for my baby because I
know what I had was awful, butnumber two, maybe it will sort
of soothe my wound a little bit.
Whether we realize it or not,it'll soothe my wound a little
bit, and it does until itdoesn't, because it's not the
whole picture.
(12:37):
There's still kind of your ownwork outside of your mother, you
being a mother and you doingthe work of mothering.
That really needs to be lookedat there.
So yeah, it's, if I havesomebody who's really struggling
in this bigger way and we'renot getting anywhere, let's say
with the breastfeeding issue, oryou know she's really having
(13:00):
trouble implementing you know acare plan or something like that
really having troubleimplementing.
You know a care plan orsomething like that, I kind of
pause everything and I startasking some questions and even
if they're rhetorical or thingsthat she doesn't necessarily
even need to share with me, thegoal is to have her start to
question these things and bringsome awareness to what might be
going on.
(13:20):
You know, under the surface alittle bit.
Joya (13:23):
So powerful and I love that you ask questions because
you're exactly right that thatthat brings up their own answers
from within.
And even as you were sayingthat, I mean I think you hit
something so powerful on thehead that it's like this.
The question that I did askmyself when I found out I was
pregnant was like how would Ihave wanted to be mothered?
And I think I mistook motheredwith smothered and I really
(13:46):
overcompensated.
Nicole (13:47):
You know, and I think you just said something really,
really important too which isthis mothered and smothered
thing.
I think that when we talk aboutmothering and I'll ask this of
you know pregnant women, youknow what is what is mothering
look like to you.
Like when I say becoming amother, like what does that
entail?
What is that?
You know what does that looklike.
(14:08):
Or when I'll say you have theseplans you know to to feed your
baby with your body, tell me why.
And 9.9 times out of 10, theanswer is bonding, nurturing,
connection.
You know that's what we talkabout, right, and so we equate
mothering with that, withnurturing and caregiving, and
that is a huge piece of it.
(14:30):
In no way am I dismissing it.
But that's not the mother'sonly role.
The mother also has a reallyimportant role, which is to kind
of be like the initiator, tokind of like help the baby bird
out of the nest, to kind of likehelp the baby bird out of the
nest.
And so we forget about thatpart and we forget that we have
(14:50):
to have that foundation ofnurturing and all that baby
wearing and all that co-sleepingand all that contact and all
that body feeding and thosecontact naps and all those
things really do set up abeautiful foundation.
But the other part of your jobis coming, which is sort of this
you know, I'm in that, my son's14.
And so I'm I'm realizing like,oh, my instinct is to hold on
(15:13):
because that soothes me, butthat's not what my child needs,
and so, yeah, it's kind of apush pull, but both parts are
really, really important.
Joya (15:25):
I really appreciate that and I mean how you're talking
about these.
Oh gosh, there's.
My brain is just wrappingaround this concept of mothering
because it's just so big.
It's such a big topic and youknow that our roles as mothers
changes over time.
And I remember reading a book.
When you know, being thevoracious reader and studier
(15:47):
that I am, I read a book, Iremember it.
I cannot remember what it was,but I do remember a sentence in
there, and it said a good parentis working themselves out of a
job.
Nicole (15:56):
Yeah, no, there really isn't.
And there is not an end to yourown need to be mothered.
Joya (16:03):
So let's talk about that.
I want to talk about your needto be mothered.
Yeah, let's talk about that.
I want to talk about your needto be mothered and how your
mothering can be your ownmedicine.
I think you really hit onsomething important there.
Nicole (16:13):
Yeah, yeah.
So it's tough, right, we livein a culture that loves to
divide mothers.
We live in a culture that stillvery much values productivity
and bouncing back and gettingback and going back to work, all
(16:36):
these things, you knowreturning instead of really
appreciating and understandingwhat this evolution or
metamorphosis of a womanbecoming a mother really is
about.
And you know, historically, ifyou look at like hunter-gatherer
, like hunter-gatherer, you knowprimitive ways of living.
(16:58):
The mother and baby, forexample, this dyad, this
mother-baby, are absolutely putin sort of the center of, you
know, the operation, rightCenter of the village.
And we tend to romanticize that.
We tend to say like, oh look,we used to celebrate mothers and
(17:20):
we used to, you know, justreally worship these new mothers
when they had their babies.
No, no, no, no, no, it wasn'tthat.
It was that we understood thatif we don't mother her, she
can't mother that baby, and ifthat baby doesn't get mothered,
then that baby doesn't survive,and then our tribe doesn't
(17:41):
survive, doesn't survive, andthen our tribe doesn't survive.
So it's kind of a survivalstrategy, you know, to really
center mothers and be, you know,mother centric.
But now we're so far from thatthat even the mothers are
uncomfortable centeringthemselves.
So I see mothers that are likeI don't want to burden people, I
don't want to ask for help, andit's like if we can't center
(18:05):
ourselves, we can't expect ourculture to center us.
And so just understanding thatit is survival right, and we now
I mean it's 2025.
We want to thrive in motherhood.
We want it to be this wonderful, joyful thing and we deserve to
(18:27):
have a joyful experience.
Not that it's going to be thatway all the time.
We're not just talking aboutsurviving, but we really won't
survive.
If we don't start centeringmothers, we will continue to see
high maternal mortality,especially when it comes to, you
(18:48):
know, suicide.
We have a very high maternalsuicide rate and that is just
absolutely unacceptable.
Joya (18:56):
Just from lack of support.
Nicole (18:57):
So just from lack of support.
Yeah, lack of support andreally understanding you know
what support is.
And so community, you know welove to shout self-care.
Joya (19:10):
Yeah.
Nicole (19:10):
Screaming at these moms self-care, self-care, self-care
but really what they need iscommunity care and really what
they need is the medicine ofcommunity and that's kind of
this other piece.
As I was coming up with thisconcept of like mothering is
medicine, and doing my researchand digging in because I just
(19:31):
wanted to get my teeth oneverything you know that was
related to this, I came acrossthis community is medicine model
.
That's part of something calledsocial prescriptions.
Joya (19:43):
Yes, and that's what I wanted to get in.
Next, tell me, all of this isamazing.
Nicole (19:47):
It's fascinating.
It's really, really fascinating.
So social prescriptions are andif you look it up, so if you
Google it, everything that yousee is like I think the oldest
article on it was like 2023.
Like this is new stuff thatwe're talking about, but
(20:08):
essentially they're differenttypes of initiatives to create
interventions that are notmedical, or interventions that
are not not medical orpharmacological.
So, essentially, like if wethought like big pharma is all
the, you know all the drugs,this is like big hug.
Oh, I love big hug.
(20:29):
This is big hug.
This is only to get togetherand like fixing along.
You know it's, it's and doctorsactually can prescribe these
different interventions, asthese little programs are
popping up to really addresslike social needs.
And we know we have this, youknow loneliness epidemic, this
(20:53):
isolation epidemic, and so it'sreally exciting to see that it's
happening and we just need itto happen faster.
Where are these groups?
(21:35):
Where are these socialprescriptions that doctors or
people are?
Again, this is new, so there'snot a lot, yeah, but I also was
able to find some research.
There are a few articles onPubMed, world Health
Organization, national Instituteof Health.
I was able to find a fewdifferent articles and things
(21:59):
kind of about this, thismovement, but yeah, social
Prescribing USA is a great placeto start for people to kind of
learn more.
Joya (22:07):
Well, I've never heard of this and I absolutely love it
and I can't wait to dive in andeducate myself around it.
And I see it not only beinghelpful I mean not even helpful,
necessary for moms and new moms, but also for elderly people,
people who are shut in.
I mean, there is a lonelinessepidemic going on in this
(22:28):
country and having this as ananswer, I just my heart is just
like oh, yes, yes, yes, theseare the kind of initiatives that
we need, right?
It's like how about hugs beforedrugs?
Try that and see if theoxytocin and human connection
that you're receiving helps youto feel better.
(22:50):
Because I know when I had myfirst child and you mentioned
maternal suicide rates and beinga suicide attempt survivor when
I was in my early 20s and thenI had my daughter, I went
through terrible postpartumdepression terrible, and it was
suicidal thoughts.
And those thoughts were ruledby that fearful mothering voice
(23:12):
that were that was saying yourchild deserves a better mother
than you.
I remember that voice just keptsaying that over and over and
over.
And of course, my doctor'sanswer was take these drugs,
which I did not do.
I read the.
I'm one of those people whoreads the pamphlet all the way
through and I prescribed myself,without even knowing what I was
(23:34):
doing, a social prescriptionthat I went and joined.
I immediately joined a Gymboree.
I remember there was a Gymboreedown the street from me and
they had a newborn baby Gymboreething.
So I went there and I justremember meeting other moms of
newborns and that, thoseconnections, and I'm actually
still friends with a couple ofthose women from when that yeah,
that time, and that was suchmedicine for me.
(23:59):
It really was.
It helped my postpartum just totalk about it with these other
women.
I'm feeling this way.
Are you feeling this way?
Are these feelings normal?
Is there something wrong withme?
Nicole (24:10):
Like all these questions , Right, right, and you know
there's a couple of things.
One thing you said was sort ofthis fear voice and kind of
tying back to like the role of amother.
You know, whether we want to ornot, our voice as mothers
(24:31):
becomes our child's inner voice,right?
What we fill them with kind ofbecomes their narrative, and so
what your mother put into youhas become your inner voice, and
so there's only so much healingthat's going to come from just
doing the opposite, because youstill have that voice.
(24:53):
And so learning to sort ofcultivate your own like inner
mother voice is like a separatething.
And it's really important toacknowledge that for anyone who
is coming into motherhood with atrauma like that, there's a big
gap in between what you got andwhat you needed.
(25:13):
And addressing that gap,whether that's through trauma
work or inner child or partswork or, you know, even just
learning about like boundariesand how to embrace, rest and
bear witness and self-care andall of these things, these are
all the things our mother shouldhave helped us learn how to do,
(25:35):
you know, and been that safeplace for us, and so we can
learn to sort of become that forourselves and and that's a
separate thing from just doingthe opposite with with our own,
with our own babies.
So yeah, I wanted to wanted tojust mention that.
And then what you said aboutjoining the, the Gymboree.
(25:57):
You know I don't know if you'refamiliar, I'm sure you've seen
it the documentary about theblue zones.
Yes, yes I have.
Joya (26:04):
So, okay, we've got people who are listening, who don't
know what that is.
Go ahead and tell about alittle bit about that.
Nicole (26:11):
So blue zones are really interesting there.
It's just these pockets ofpopulations um around the world
and there's only a handful ofthem, I want to say like six or
seven.
There's not very many um, andthey're areas where the lifespan
is like way longer than theaverage around the area.
(26:34):
So we've got people living likeinto like late 90s, over a
hundred um, and so thedocumentary really explores like
what's the secret?
What are these people doing?
And it's been a while sinceI've seen it, but my very
favorite village that theyspotlighted, I believe, was in
Italy and these women live to belike 100 years old and what do
(26:58):
they do all day?
They like make pasta and laugh.
Like that's literally whatthey're doing and that's the
secret and that's that was like.
Their answer was like we spendtime together doing things that
bring us joy.
Joya (27:14):
I mean okay, right there, so key yeah.
And I mean I know we touched ona little bit about the mother
wound and I'm sure peoplelistening know what that is.
I want to know what is goodmothering?
Do you know what good motheringlooks like?
Nicole (27:32):
Good mothering.
I'm pausing because I thinkthat I want to be very careful
in how I answer the question.
Just a little context, becauseI work in this mothering space.
There's a lot of judgment aboutthat question and about the
(27:58):
variety of answers that questionand about the variety of
answers, and so I do not endorsethings like just support
whatever a mom wants to do, andI think we've decided that
that's the best way to makethings better is just say,
(28:18):
whatever it is you're doing, wesupport you.
But that's not really true,because we don't support trauma
and we don't support abuse.
I mean, like everyone has aline.
So then people go, ok, well, wesupport everything except that.
And so then it becomes like,well, where's the line?
Right, so it's not aboutsupport all mothers.
(28:40):
Everyone's doing their best,because the truth is everyone
isn't doing their best and I'msorry, you know, they're just
not Now.
Maybe there's limitations andthey're doing the best with what
they have.
I mean, that's sort of a it's anuanced conversation, but you
know, we do know what harmschildren and so obviously you
(29:02):
know that's pretty black andwhite.
You know like we don't.
Good mothering is notabandonment and trauma and
telling them you wish they werenever born and things like that.
But it's also not just wingingit, doing your best.
So I think there's componentsof good mothering that I can
(29:23):
confidently say.
One is being willing to sort offace your shadows and face the
unhealed parts of you that aregoing to come up when you become
(29:43):
a mother.
So if you're not willing tolook at it, you are going to be
denying yourself healing andreally your child the
opportunity to have you know youdoing your best from the most
healed place.
So it doesn't mean you have tolike resolve all your trauma
(30:04):
before you become a parent, butunderstanding that these wounds
do come up, they do resurface,they do recycle, things are
passed down intergenerationallyand so being willing to look at
it.
The other thing is and it verymuch goes with that concept of
(30:27):
being willing to sort of look atthe shadows.
We hear a lot about peoplebreaking cycles right, like be a
cycle breaker.
Be a cycle breaker, yeah, andmaybe it's semantics.
For me, language really mattersand words really matter.
For me, language really mattersand words really matter.
(30:48):
So I'm going to pick it apartjust a little bit briefly.
I think that sometimes there canbe a lot of shame and a lot of
fear when it comes to breakingcycles, especially if you still
have your mother, for example,in your life, because now you're
making a judgment about whatshe did and maybe she doesn't
know.
You feel that way, right, maybeshe does, maybe she doesn't,
(31:10):
and maybe for your safety andfor your just quality of life,
we kind of want to not bringthat up.
You know, I'm not saying youhave to like go tell your mother
all the things that she did,but thinking about breaking
cycles like you did this thingto me and I'm going to break
this cycle, right, that can bemet with some resistance.
(31:33):
I've met women that are likethat feels a little
uncomfortable and so reframingit as we're going to be cycle
starters, we're going to bestarters of something new,
beautiful, that's so much moreempowering.
To be starters of something new, that's so much more empowering
, it's so much more empoweringand I think it's also kind of
(31:53):
freeing, like okay.
Joya (31:55):
When you said that, I even felt myself just go, oh, I
could start.
I don't have to destroyanything, I could just start
from where I'm at.
Nicole (32:03):
Right, yeah, right.
It doesn't ask of us to go digup all the trauma or go confront
the person, which you knowmight sound like the opposite of
what I just said, like bewilling to face the shadows, but
it's really not.
It's.
It's about, you know, notspending energy.
You know your energy is yourcurrency and so, especially when
(32:26):
you're in the throes ofmothering and you're like how do
I figure this all out and howdo I deal with my, my stuff
that's coming up, you know Idon't have time in the day to
even take a shower, much lessbreak cycles, like, what are we
talking about?
You know, it really can be anempowering and more motivating
and kind of liberating reframeto say let's just be a cycle
(32:48):
starter.
Joya (32:49):
I really love that.
I'm still not close to my momand I did a lot of forgiveness
work, of which I haven't toldher because I'm like it doesn't
involve her, it's my stuff,that's my stuff, and so it's for
me to do that for myself, notfor her.
This is not for her, this isfor me, so that I can start a
(33:09):
cycle of inner freedom,releasing the judgment,
releasing those comparisons andreally knowing that from that
place, I truly am doing the bestthat I can because I'm not
consciously trying to keepmyself attached to what I think
I should be doing or what itshould look like, and I just
love that.
(33:29):
And I really appreciated youranswer too and thank you for
that.
And, as you were saying, and Isaid, you know, I should have
asked what is a healthy mothermothering look like as opposed
to good mothering, which is acompletely different question,
and I'm big on words too andit's I mean, it's the same
question but different.
So I appreciate that youactually answered it from the
(34:02):
point of view of healthymothering.
What does healthy motheringlook like?
Because you know, we tend tolook at our parents as objects
rather than as human beings.
These are objects, this is whatthey're supposed, this
situation, and you know, and Ithink it's really difficult to
have these conversations aboutmothering and motherhood as well
, because it is so individuated-yeah, well, it's.
Nicole (34:18):
Also we can't put this entirely on one person you know
we've you've got your mother andthen her mother, and then you
know we've got kind of like theline epigenetics, yes yeah, and
and how these women, you know,in our, in our lineage, were
affected by, you know,demographically, economically,
(34:43):
you know, this kind ofpatriarchal, you know system
that we're in, all of thosethings are factors, and so we
kind of just inherit this likeball of like I call it a, like a
blood clot, like it's just likethis big, like clot, and so
when it finally gets to someone,somebody eventually has to sort
(35:05):
of take a look at it and startsort of like dissecting it and
pulling it apart a little bit.
And so it's a messy process andit doesn't really it doesn't
happen in one generation.
And that's why I also reallylike cycle starters is that
we're just starting it.
My job is to start it Right andthen your, your child's job is
to keep it going, or even starttheir own.
Joya (35:26):
Yeah, sure, yeah, and I do .
I really love that Because Ifeel, you know, when I had my
children, I didn't, I mean andthis was before the I mean the
internet was there, but not likeit is today, right, so with
people having these kinds ofconversations everywhere, and so
it was really kind of justfiguring it out and even though
I didn't have that languaging ofI'm going to start a new cycle,
(35:49):
that's exactly what I did,because I didn't.
I'm like I know I don't want totake what I know with me into
this.
I knew what I didn't want, andso I was kind of just trying to
figure out what I did want, andI don't know if that's a great
place to start or not, butthat's.
That was really kind of all I,all I could do.
Nicole (36:06):
Yeah, of course, I think you know the great.
The right place to start iswhere you are, and my husband
shared a quote with me recentlyand I can't remember who said it
, but it feels fitting the bestdecision is to do the right
thing, the second best decisionis to do the wrong thing, and
(36:26):
the worst decision is to donothing.
Oh, there it is.
So, yeah, it would be great ifyou just got it right, but the
second best thing is to just try, and maybe it turned out to not
be the right thing.
But to do nothing, to changenothing, is the worst thing that
(36:47):
you can do.
And so when we show up that wayfor our kids, especially as they
get older, you know which is,of course, a whole nother
conversation about how do youmother these like teenagers and
young adults, and really showingup for them and being honest
and and sharing things you knowabout, like, hey, I tried that
and it didn't work, you know,and I've hurt your feelings or
(37:11):
I've broken your trust, or, youknow, showing up in these
vulnerable ways so that they cansort of see the model you know
also helps with that cyclestarting as well 100% and you
know, I have conversations withmy own children that I still
can't have with my mom, becausethey're that deep and that
honest and that vulnerable andand so I, you know, I really
(37:35):
just want to say to all the momsout there who are doing the
best that they can and know thatthey're doing the best that
they can, that you're doing agreat job and your kids love you
that you're doing a great joband your kids love you, they do.
And if you're finding it harderthan it should be, and sometimes
moms will say, well, I don'tknow, was it supposed to be this
(37:55):
hard?
But your intuition is actuallypretty strong.
I meet moms and they're like Iknew it would be hard, but I
don't think it's supposed tofeel like this.
You know, if it's feelingharder than it should be, that
that could be.
You know something that needsattention.
(38:16):
You know there's, there's awound there and you know the
first place to look is probablyyour birth.
You know, again, I run into alot of women who are having
issues postpartum and I say,tell me about that birth.
You know, and I run into a lotof women who are having issues
postpartum and I say, tell meabout that birth, you know.
And then the floodgates openand and then usually it goes
into something before the birthand then her feelings about her
self-worth and before you knowit we're talking about, you know
(38:37):
, seven-year-old Susie and youknow her, her mother wound.
So if it's feeling harder thanit should be, if your mental
health is, you know, reallysuffering you know I'm not
saying that taking medication,you know, hey, I take medication
and I've had different times inmy life where it's my plan of
(39:01):
care, you know, to take care ofmyself, to take care of myself,
but it's not going to be asubstitute for doing healing
work, especially if there'strauma there or, you know, an
unhealed mother wound.
Even if you have a goodrelationship with your mother,
there's still sort of acollective wound Also it really
is yeah.
(39:21):
We've got mother earth.
Oh my gosh, she's so wounded.
You know we don't, we don'tlive in, in, in reciprocity with
the earth, and that's a woundthat we're not very in touch
with, but it's there, yeah, andit all is so much about this
energy that we're in right now.
Joya (39:42):
That's shifting very slowly, but coming much more
back into unity, consciousnessof the, honoring the feminine as
much as we've honored themasculine, and also honoring the
healthy masculine, and doingaway with this toxic masculinity
, this patriarchal masculinitythat does expect a mom to have a
baby.
Bounce back in six weeks, goback to your job, put your baby
(40:04):
in daycare and be perfectly okaywith that, and you need to be
exactly how you were before youwent on maternity leave.
Like that is just sounrealistic.
Nicole (40:13):
Yep, and it's not.
You know, just to clarify toofor anyone listening, it's not
pointing the finger at men, youknow.
No, no, no, it's not about themen.
I mean we perpetuate it too.
You know it's absolutely, it'sthe men.
I mean we, we perpetuate it too.
You know it's, it's the systems.
Yeah, yeah, it's, it's.
Yeah, we need there's, there'sa real medicine, you know, in
(40:35):
just women gathering, um, I uhdiscovered, uh, about three
years ago, that, um, women'sretreats are like better therapy
than therapy for me.
It's so true.
Now I host retreats because I'mlike these are amazing and I
(40:56):
want women to come together andgo on retreat.
But yeah, it's a real medicinejust to be with other women,
whether we're, you know,engaging in some sort of ritual
or ceremony or grieving orsharing.
You know, is this normal?
What did you deal with?
You know?
Make pasta together.
Joya (41:13):
Laugh sign me up.
Oh my gosh, Nicole, you workwith women in such beautiful
ways, and not only from the.
You know the tangible takeaways, strategies and tools and
things that they can actually do, but also I hear your true
heart of compassion and your andthings that they can actually
do.
But also I hear your true heartof compassion and your wisdom
in how you can help coach themto through so much of what
(41:34):
they're experiencing.
Nicole (41:36):
Yeah, thank you.
Yeah, it's, it's.
I would I feel very confidentin saying that this mothering is
medicine, is it's kind of thethrough line now for me.
You know, with all of my work,whether I'm, you know, helping a
new mom figure out how to workher breast pump, you know I'm
nurturing her, I'm mothering her, I'm encouraging her in sort of
(42:00):
like the straightforward wayyou know that a mother would, or
everything from.
You know I also do lifecoaching and I host retreats and
I do birth trauma work and youknow all this other stuff.
And with women of all agesbecause, again, mothering never
ends and really the need forthat mothering and sisterhood,
(42:21):
you know which is, you know it'sall the same, you know it's all
this, this women, energy, andit's it's really important.
So, yeah, it's woven ineverything that I do.
Joya (42:31):
So beautiful?
Where can people find you whoare feeling like I need to know
who this woman is and go findher and work with her?
Where can women find you oranybody find you who wants to
know more about you and yourbeautiful work?
Nicole (42:43):
Yeah, I would love that.
So I have a small privatepractice in Melbourne, florida,
and I work with women all over.
I have had clients all over theworld because telehealth
technology is so great now.
But my company is called MotherNurture Consulting and Wellness
and mothernurtureconsultingcomis my website and it has lots of
(43:07):
ways to contact me on thewebsite.
You know email.
I've got a phone number If youwant to call me, send me a text.
You can also find me onInstagram at motheringismedicine
.
Joya (43:19):
So, Nicole, in addition, do you have anything upcoming
that people can work with you on?
Anything you have coming upsoon?
Nicole (43:27):
Yes, I have something really exciting coming March 5th
through 9th, I have a full allinclusive retreat for women,
specifically for women over 40.
So this is a little deviationfrom my work with brand new
mamas.
This is any woman over 40 goingthrough, you know, any sort of
(43:47):
shift midlife career change,divorce, empty nest, you name it
.
We're going to be gathering forfour nights and four full days
in St Augustine, Florida.
Joya (43:59):
Beautiful.
Nicole (44:01):
We still have three or four spots left, so this retreat
is going to be a pretty smallgroup.
It's going to be about 10 of usis the hope, but we would love
to fill those last few spots.
Joya (44:12):
Perfect.
Well, I'll definitely have alink to that below as well, so
if anybody feels called, theycan definitely go there.
So fabulous, and I'm just sograteful that you are in the
world doing this work for themothers, the young women who are
becoming mothers now.
Me, who, my children, are nowstill at home, but I'll be an
(44:35):
empty nester when they'refinished with school and they're
gone and it just it doesn't end.
And so I just really appreciatewhat you're doing and this, the
community, this communityaspect that you are so
passionate about, and the socialaspect of it.
I just am so grateful thatyou're out there doing the work
that you do.
Thank you.
Thank you so much Thank you forlistening to we Woke Up Like
(44:57):
this.
Your likes, comments, sharesand subscribes help this content
reach new listeners, and I soappreciate you.
And remember, luminous One,that your radiant and magnetic
presence changes the world.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Dateline NBC
Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Special Summer Offer: Exclusively on Apple Podcasts, try our Dateline Premium subscription completely free for one month! With Dateline Premium, you get every episode ad-free plus exclusive bonus content.
24/7 News: The Latest
The latest news in 4 minutes updated every hour, every day.