389 - Selling High-Ticket Design Services with Kenzi Green & Marisa Burgett - Web Design Business with Josh Hall

Episode Transcript
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Marisa Burgett (00:00):
You teach people how to treat you, and so if you
are putting a cheap vibe outthere, that's what you're going
to bring in like you are in amagnet for what you put out.
So, first and foremost, we needto look at the things you're
posting and talking about to getthose clients.
So that's what we would look atfirst.

Kenzi Green (00:19):
Yeah, just to follow up with that, to like
give an example, I was onthreads the other day and I see
this designer and she's like I'mso done with clients, I just
keep getting ghosted after Isend my prices and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah and I go lookat her services and she's
offering a logo suite for $150.
And so I nicely responded andI'm like that's your problem.

(00:42):
You are presenting as a veryseverely underpriced designer,
you're attracting low budget,low commitment clients and, as a
result, you're getting ghosted.

Josh Hall (00:55):
Welcome to the web design business podcast, with
your host, josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
All right, my web designerfriend, now if you have just
been getting a steady swarm ofcrappy clients, you may think
it's me.
Why am I attracting these typeof clients?

(01:17):
I would actually be willing tobet it's not you personally,
it's your pricing and youroffers.
So we're going to dive intohigh ticket today and all the
ins and outs of a high ticketoffer for both brand and web
designers.
And I'm so excited to have ontwo guests in one for this
episode Kinsey and Marissa, whoare the founders of the Brief

(01:39):
Collective, who specificallyhelp designers with their
high-ticket offers.
Now, it's interesting becausethere's a lot of debate on how
well high-ticket offers areselling today, maybe compared to
a few years ago.
But I'm here today to tell youyes, they are still selling, and
to hear from folks who knowwhat's working, how to structure

(01:59):
them, how to offer them, how toattract the right type of
clients.
We're going to dive into allthat more with both Marissa and
Kinsey.
You can check them out at thebrief collectivecom.
Uh, they do have some freebiesand a Academy there If you would
like to dive in further intothe world to find out about how
you can structure your highticket offers and all the show
notes and links that we talkedabout in this episode, or the

(02:22):
links in this episode, will beat the show notes, which are
going to be found at josh hallco389.
So zip over there for all theadditional resources and to
leave us a comment.
All right, let's dive into thehigh ticket world, shall we?
Well, marissa and kinsey,welcome in.
I was just saying before we hitrecord.
I rarely do trio interviews, so, uh, i'll'll make sure we get

(02:45):
equal amounts of Kinsey andequal amounts of Marissa, but
thank you both for joining yeah.

Thanks so much for having us.
We're pretty yin and yang, sowe know kind of which one needs
to answer whatever questionsbecause we just work together so
much.
So we have like our lanes, westay in, which is good.

Josh Hall (03:05):
So, Marissa, what is your lane in your business?

OK, so I am the mindset coach.
So if somebody is dealing withimposter syndrome or they're
suffering from perfectionismpeople pleasing stuff like that
I help them through that.
Perfectionism, people pleasingstuff like that I help them
through that.
And if they need kind of a kickin the ass, then I kick them

(03:30):
over to Kinsey and she helpsthem with the action they need
to take in their businesses.

Josh Hall (03:34):
Gotcha.
So Kinsey's the bouncer.
So, Kinsey, is that like inyour tagline, in your email
Kinsey the bouncer.

Well, they all know, like they all know, when
they come into the program, wehave them take this personality
quiz and we're like how do youhandle feedback?
And everybody knows if they sayblunt, honest, to the point
that they're probably going toget paired with me versus like I
need it, I need it more, gentlethan they're going to get
paired with Coach Marissa.

Josh Hall (03:59):
Gotcha.
Actually it'd be more like a,like a drill instructor, right,
More like a military instructoror something.

Yeah, drop and give us 20.

Josh Hall (04:08):
That's the tagline for Kinsey's email, for sure.
Well, this is great, guys.
It's interesting because I'malways fascinated by folks who
have a pretty 50-50,all-in-together approach on
coaching.
I just personally can't imaginedoing that as a control freak
like I am.
But just real quick, before wedive into digging into

(04:28):
specifically high ticket offers,how do you guys balance this
business together?
Are you local to each other oris it completely online?
How does that work?

No, we met.
Do you remember when Clubhousewas popular back in the day?
Yeah apparently we met in aClubhouse room and we started
our company together before evermeeting in person.
So the internet is reallypowerful and really cool.
So my mom always told me likedon't make friends with
strangers.
You meet in chat rooms.
And I did it anyway.

(04:58):
So it's always just been verynatural for us, like I always,
like naturally, just went um,mindset I'm like okay, they're
doing that because and we wereable to be like A, b and C.
And then Kinsey's like okay,they need to fix it with X, y, z
.
So it was just very natural forus to do that.

(05:20):
And Kinsey's really good withthe kind of marketing front end
stuff and I'm better with thelike leading our team and
structures organization on theon the back end.
So it just feels very naturalfor us.

Josh Hall (05:37):
Do you recommend to your students to try to find a
complimentary skill set type ofperson Like?
Do you often recommend apartnership style agency
approach, or do you teachsolopreneurs as well who do it
all?

Yeah, we teach a lot of solopreneurs who do it
all.

What are your?

Josh Hall (05:57):
thoughts on that Kinsey.

If you're building out a team, like who you hire,
needs to play well with yourskill set like, obviously,
strengths versus weaknesses.
But I'd never encourage anyoneto start a business with someone
else, not because I don't loveMarissa, but there's more to the
story that we don't even sharepublicly right now.
We plan to write a book one day, but it wasn't just us two that

(06:20):
started this business and whenwe started we had no intention
of making money from the briefcollective, Like it started as a
community.
It started as just a way tobring designers together and it
grew into something more and wedidn't have a contract and you
know, you can kind of put thepieces together there.

Josh Hall (06:38):
I'm guessing there is some messiness.

Literally, when we , when we tell people the full
story, their jaws are on thefloor because it's just like,
like something that you just youcan't even comprehend.

Josh Hall (06:52):
What is a good point right off the bat too, of like
getting really clear about yourstrong suits and your skillsets
and then knowing your role inthe business, especially when
you start to scale.
I mean, you guys are big onhigh ticket offers.
I found that most people doinghigh ticket offers are getting
into scaling pretty quick,depending on what's included,
because there's often a lot offulfillment with higher paying

(07:14):
projects versus like atemplatized.
You know I only do one smallthing for each project, then I
move on.

I think it definitely depends on your goals
, right, Like for me.
And again, this is the benefitof having two people, two
coaches you get my perspectiveand coach Marissa's perspective,
and then designers can take andapply what they want to their
own business.
But I've always been by myself.
I like working by myself.
So even when I am working on 12K, 15 K projects, it's for the

(07:43):
most part just me and I have theskillset to carry that out.
I mean, if there's, you know,an instance where I need
somebody else's skillset, Imight bring on like a white
label designer just for thatproject or whatever, Whereas
coach Marissa likes to have ateam.
She's more of an agency model,and so I think it's all about
finding what works for you andyour lifestyle and your goals.

Josh Hall (08:03):
That is interesting.
Do you guys?
Have you guys butted heads onum things to do with, like
offers, scaling, like I guess,what, what, what are your both
areas of differences, other thanwhat you just said, kenzie?
Like what?
What have you guys had to comein alignment on with how you
teach, especially?

Uh, I made her cry once when I was like we have to
had.
I was like we have to get ridof these programs that we worked
so hard on.
Uh so like, I think when you'reworking in a partnership, over
time you learn who does whatlike.
It's not like we just instantlyknew, even though we were
always kind of yin and yang.
It's like over time we okayKinsey's really good at this,

(08:45):
marissa's really good at thisand then the more action steps
you take, the more the pathbecomes clear.
And since I'm in charge of ourmarketing side and things like
that, marissa's always the ideasand the big picture thinker and
I'm always like but we need tomake it simple.
So, yeah, it's just over timewe've learned what works.
It's like a big experiment, butI think that's what business is

(09:07):
in general.

And I really love feedback.
Like, a lot of people are verythreatened by feedback, get
their feelings hurt by feedback,but I think feedback is very
powerful and once you get overthe initial sting of whatever it
is, I'm like, oh yeah, thatidea will function better if we
just shift this.
So I think if you remove thefeelings from it, then then

(09:29):
you're going to be okay.
So, um, yeah, we honestlyhaven't butted head on heads on
many things.
Um, it's more like what is bestfor the company and we do that.
So what's best for our studentsand the design industry as a
whole, because we're reallytrying to, like, leave the
design industry better than howwe found it.

Josh Hall (09:50):
This could definitely end up just diving into a
partnership conversation becauseI have so many questions on
that.
But one thing I am curiousabout is when you guys decided
to go all in on this together,did you create like a really
clear, like vision mission andthen intangibles that are
separate from you guyspersonally and it's just like

(10:10):
this is the business.
We have to respect and honorthe business.
So our personal feelings needto be set aside To your point,
marissa.
Did you guys have to do thatfirst?
You know what I mean Almostmake business ground rules in a
vision first, and then yourpersonal feelings kind of get
set aside and you have to dowhat's best for the cause.
Is that kind of how that wentabout?

do you want to answer.
Um, I mean, I I come from acorporate background.
Um, I have eight years incorporate, so I was big on
structure.
Rules like these are are thekind of ways that we were going
to play this out.
So we had that from thebeginning.

(10:52):
But this vision shifted as ourbusiness grew and the DMs kept
coming and we were like, okay,people really need a leadership
in this.
They're all asking the samequestions.
And so that's when we were like, okay, we need to make a course
so that we're not like boggeddown answering the exact same
questions in the DMS over andover.
So that's.

(11:12):
We initially just started outas wanting to do a community,
and then it grew into like beinga coach and hosting these
people and leading these people.
And now we're up to semester 10of our cohorts, which blows my
mind.
That's not what we started outdoing, but I absolutely love
where we've ended up.

Josh Hall (11:34):
So let's dive into what you guys teach and
particularly the results you'rehelping folks get.
High ticket is fascinating.
Right now, I feel like and youtell me, I feel like we're in
just wild times when it comes to, particularly with the rise of
AI and just tools making thingseasier quote unquote for web
designers.
I see a lot of pushback on highticket ideas, or at least I see

(11:57):
a lot of apprehension, or a lotof assumptions, that high
ticket isn't selling like itused to, because you could crank
out a website, for example, youknow a lot faster, but you're
obviously doing very well andthriving with this model.
So where I guess the questionis and I'll throw this to either
one of you where is high ticketnow, in 2025, and maybe it is

(12:19):
worth like expanding on.
What does high ticket mean?
Is it just a high price rangeor is it a is?
Let's start with that.
What is high ticket is?
Is it just a high price rangeor is it a is?
Let's start with that.
What is high ticket Is it?
Is it a high just price point,or is it like a high bundled of
services together?
What is high ticket mean?

That's a really good question.
I think it can depend on whoyou ask, right, because for some
people, high ticket is 50 Kplus.
For us, we always kind ofreference the 10k client mark,
just because that's a really bigmilestone, a really big thing
throughout the design communitythat we oftentimes serve.
So for us it looks like workingwith clients usually 6k plus to

(12:58):
20k I mean on average, I'd sayin that range somewhere.
And I think being a high ticketdesigner isn't just about money
, though.
It's about the way you serveyour clients, it's about
providing a five star experience, it's about delivering things
with confidence and knowing thatyou're focused on getting them
results, and that's a lot aboutwhat we teach in our program.

And I think that a lot of people who will pay
these high ticket prices reallydon't want, yes, men.
They have enough of those ontheir team, surrounded by them
all the time.
They want somebody who's reallygoing to advocate for them, and
they're coming to the designerbecause they're like I don't
know what to do.
I have this problem, help mesolve it creatively.
And so just teaching thesedesigners that you know the how

(13:43):
we're coaching them, like youare the leader and this is how
you deliver that leadership,because it's okay If you push
back to your client a little bitin, like advocating for them
and what their goals are, wherethey're headed with their
businesses.

Josh Hall (13:58):
I think you just kind of semi answered my next
question, which is kind of whereit is high ticket stand in 2025
?
And really the core of that islike how do you present high
ticket offers, especially in2025?
But I think what you just saidright there, marissa, and how
Kinsey set you up on that iscorrect me if I'm wrong.
I feel like that's probably theanswer is like you have to

(14:20):
position yourself as more of apartner with your clients, or a
consultant or something morethan just a pixel pusher and I
guess man, like you said, Ican't stand pixel pushing Like.

I did that for, you know, my first few projects
and I was like I hate all ofthese.
These are so ugly, like and Iknow that the client that's not
serving the client, but I feltscared to push back for them.
So I think just walking throughthat you know ourselves and
experiencing that that's whywe're able to talk so much about
it and, like know exactly wherethe headspace is of these

(14:53):
students we teach, because pixelpushing like doesn't really
help anybody.
It doesn't help your creativityand also doesn't really help
the client.

Josh Hall (15:03):
And I do agree on the on the mindset of the price
points of high ticket, at leastin the freelance world and the
solopreneur world, withoutgetting into like big agency
world.
I feel like when I think ofhigh ticket, I think of 10, 20,
30k, yeah, something like that.
I view like 5K plus is stillyou can build a six figure
business at five K plus,depending on what you're

(15:25):
offering.
But yeah, just you know to kindof back up where you guys are
at, from what I see as well,when I think high ticket clients
it's 10 K plus.
Now are you guys often teachingon?
Cause I don't know yourcurriculum, I don't know the
model exactly.
Are you teaching one-offprojects or are you teaching MRR
and monthly recurring revenuelike subscription style?

(15:48):
If we expand on like a highticket offer that's 10 or 20k,
what does the structure of thoseoffers look like?

So a lot about what we teach is the business of
design and how to just serve ahigh ticket client in general.
So the results our students getvary based on their goals, what
they want to offer, where theywant to go.
We have some students who wantto offer recurring services or
who know how to do SEOmaintenance and want to offer

(16:18):
that.
And we have other students whojust want to do big, high-ticket
one-off projects, which is, forthe most part, what I
specialize in.
That's also what Marissaspecializes in, but she's also
done recurring social mediamanagement, whereas I haven't.
So we encourage our students tostructure their offers based on
how they want to serve clientsand we get all kinds of
different results.

(16:38):
So, for example, we've hadstudents come to our program who
are just charging $200 andthat's all they booked and
through our coaching over threemonths they booked a 5K client
without changing anything abouttheir design skills.
It's all like mindset,confidence, positioning.
And then we've also hadstudents join our program who
have already booked a 5K clientand then come out the other side

(17:00):
and book an 11K client.
So a lot of the things that weteach can be applied to
designers at different levelsand obviously they're going to
get different results based onwhere they're at and what
they've already experienced.

Josh Hall (17:15):
Yeah, but I like that idea and you're totally right.
I feel like a high ticket offercould be applied to virtually
anything, because you couldstretch a.
I know a big wave right now ofa hot topic and enthusiasm is
for some sort of subscriptionstyle approach to web design, in
which case you could take a$10,000 project and stretch it
out over a year or over 18months, kind of similar to where

(17:38):
, like, yeah, even a somewhatlow MRR offer, if you zoom out
and look at it over a year ortwo years, that is actually a
high ticket offer.
It's just stretched out versusthe one-off approach.
But I love that idea.
In that frame of like you can gohigh ticket and very early on.
I feel like too.
I think a lot of designers putthemselves in a box to where

(17:59):
they put unneeded constraints onthere where it's like and
you're, you're a lot of, youknow a lot of what you're doing
is mindset.
I've tell me, if you see thisas well as well, with designers
under two years in particular,they feel like I could never
charge this, even if I have theexpertise and the skill set.
I can't charge it because Ihaven't been doing this long

(18:20):
enough yeah, I have to put mytime in yeah, yeah, like I gotta
put my 10,000 hours in.
Wherever that came from.
What are your thoughts on that?

I think it's complete bullshit.
I know so many designers whohave incredible skills coming
out of design school or maybethey're even self-taught I'm
self-taught and their designskills are incredible.
And I know other designers whoare like 10 years in and I'm
like, oh, you need to go back tothe drawing girl board.

(18:51):
But it's like, yeah, it doesn'tmatter what your experience is,
it matters the results thatyou're getting your client.
I think that is like I put thatimportance way up here, rather
than the skills that you have,Because I mean, I was just doing
a brand project last week and Ididn't know how to do something
and I had to go learn a newskill.
On the cuff.
I'm like, wow, I haven't donethis in a minute.
You have to be able that's whatdesign is Just being able to

(19:15):
adapt and apply those things.
So I think the years ofexperience doesn't matter when
you're pricing a project at all.

Josh Hall (19:24):
Yeah, totally, I love that.
I just struck a chord there too.
I just saw the jolt of energycome up there.
I'm sure you get that questionoften or see that situation and
it's kind of heartbreaking, forwhatever reason.
Maybe it's because, like maybe,I think a lot of freelancers
like myself are not academics,so most of us don't come from

(19:45):
that sort of world.
But I do wonder if there's afeeling, just because of our
culture, that you got to do likefour years of some sort of
program to get a job.
And just with the way that, youknow, typical college to
corporate structure works.
I wonder if there's some ofthat into the mindset of like
well, if I'm going to besuccessful, it's got to take a

(20:06):
while, right, I mean, I thinkthat narrative is changing
because of real life examplesand mentors and coaches like
yourself and myself.
But I do wonder if there's justlike an underlying sense of
like I got to put my time and myreps in before I can be
successful.

I mean, that's exactly what I thought when I
was climbing the corporateladder Like I was rewarded with
doing really good work, withmore work, like not more money
per hour.
So I think that as a society,that's just kind of yeah, you
got to put your time in climbthe corporate ladder.
Like that's just kind of thelies we're fed and it doesn't

(20:42):
have to be like that like at all.
And once I realized that once Iwas like managing people at the
top and I was like, wow, I'mkind of making this man a lot of
money and he's doesn't evengive me a yearly bonus, and not
that it's all about money for me, but I was like the disrespect
I can't.
So I ended up leaving.
And that's when I started myown design business.

(21:03):
Um, yeah, it was.
It was a crazy ride.
And I think you're right thatpeople think that they have to
like put the reps in.
I like what you said about that.

Josh Hall (21:13):
What are your thoughts?
Kinsey, did you ever experiencethat as well, or do you?
You know, if do you do, youdoes Barissa kick people over to
you when they really need to tolose that mindset.

Well, I'm more effective on people who are good
with tough love and are greataction takers.
I find that if somebody isseverely undercharging and I'm
like, just put this number on,just say this number, that
doesn't work.
They have to have the mindsetwork and like that's really
built into our program is, yes,we teach skills and the business

(21:49):
of design and have templatesand processes and show them all
that stuff.
But our live coaching calls arefor the mindset and the inner
work that has to happen in orderfor them to be able to
confidently say that number.
And I think that this kind ofall ties back to the starving
artist mentality.
Like our whole thing is that wewant designers to book high
ticket clients and ditch thatstarving artist mindset that

(22:11):
society puts on creativesespecially.
And so I find so many creativesthat are stuck in the same
cycle, even though theyliterally left their nine to
five to get out of that cycle,but that that they carried on
that same mindset.
So now they built a businessthat's just as bad as a nine to
five and they're struggling tofind the courage and the risk

(22:32):
taking they need to get out ofit.

Josh Hall (22:36):
Yeah gosh, we're breaking some uh some societal
chains here.
There is a.
There is something still todayabout creatives and money that
is just extra difficult I feellike to break free from or
navigate from.
And I've found, if you comeinto web design, branding or

(22:58):
graphic design and you areresults-focused for clients,
that tends to help break throughthat because you realize I'm
not charging for this design perse, I'm charging for helping
this client get X amount ofleads or grow their businesses
in a certain way, and thatshifted my frame for sure,

(23:18):
realizing like, well, I'm notjust designing a pretty website,
I'm designing something that isgoing to make this business
money and help feed their kids.
And it's a different layer haveyou guys found that to be true,
both with your students andyour personal lives as well to
where, like as a creative, youput results behind your work and
it just changes the confidenceI feel like for charging your

(23:41):
worth.

A thousand percent, like pretty is so easy
but functional and likeaffecting the bottom line,
that's what the business ownerreally cares about.
So I think, yeah, it is such abig thing to be able to make
sure that the designs you'reputting out are actually going
to be fruitful for the client.

(24:04):
Like you have to be a goodsteward of that.
And so when we talk to ourclient or to our students about
that and just kind of shed lightto that, where we talk a lot
about value based pricing and sothey're like, oh, charge your
worth, charge your worth.
Like you hear that a lot butI'm like, no, don't, don't
charge based on your worth.

(24:24):
That's far too personal.
Charge based on the value thatyou're bringing to this client.
Because I wouldn't charge a momand pop the same amount that I
would charge somebody who'sgoing to get their product in
Trader Joe's.
They're just not the same.
So you have to really treat itone-off.
Each client is different.

Josh Hall (24:44):
Let's dive into pricing a little bit.
Let's dive into pricing alittle bit and actually, before
we get into the pricing, I thinka worthwhile topic that
inevitably includes pricing islike goals, annual goals.
It's interesting because I'vereally gone back and forth as to
whether or not building yourbusiness around an annual
revenue target is the right wayto go and it may be right for

(25:07):
some and not others, dependingon personality and depending on
how they view money.
But at the end of the day, whatI've personally seen is a lot
of the successful members of mycommunity WebCenter Pro who hit
their goals and are reallykilling it generally have a
target in mind and especiallythose who struggle with pricing
and charging.

(25:27):
Their worth or their value is,if you look at pricing just per
project, it's really vague andit's like, yeah, 10k sounds nice
, but I found if you know whatyou need to bring home revenue
wise and you know your businessexpenses and you know the other
things that come along with that, with taxes and everything else
, you can get confidence withpricing if you know what you

(25:50):
need to make that year.
So how do you guys go about andfeel about goal setting like
that, particularly if you set arevenue goal, because I know
that's an icky term for somepeople.
Some people are like I don'tlike to set a revenue goal
necessarily for the year, butI've just personally gone back
and forth on that and learnedthat if you know you need to
take home $70,000, then youshould probably have a goal of

(26:13):
like $120,000, $130,000 withtaxes, expenses and everything
else and have some profit in thebusiness, which then you can
look at your month to month andsay how many projects have you
done in a month?
There's a $10,000 offer, liketwo $10,K offers.
How do you guys feel about goalsetting, especially if there's
money involved?

We literally have them do smart goals in
orientation.
We literally show them how toset a goal, how to define it,
and part of our program ispricing transparency.
So we're all about goal setting, being open about the numbers.
We even send them checks intheir student welcome box and

(26:54):
one check is for like the mostthey've ever made, and the other
check is their goal and we makethem write it out and put it on
the wall, and the other onegoes into this little snow globe
that they destroy.

Josh Hall (27:03):
Nice.

Yeah, I think you have to be able to visually
see it.
I think that's a big thing likepracticing out loud saying that
big, scary price, at least forour students.
They're like, wow, I can'tbelieve I said that out loud and
I'm like you go.
I think like, just once youknow that you can do it, once
you're like, ok, I can do thisagain.
It just builds that musclememory of saying that higher

(27:31):
price out loud.
And yeah, you got to know howmuch you need to function with
your life, your lifestyle andall that stuff, especially
having a family or if you wantto have a team, you got to have
to be able to support that.

Josh Hall (27:47):
So goals are always good you gotta have to be able
to support that.
So goals are, goals are alwaysgood.
Do you lead, like when it comesto a high ticket offer?
Do you lead with with goals inmind, like that?
Or I guess, when you'rethinking about pricing a high
ticket offer, I'm wondering likeyeah, where is the what's
driving?
The price point, I guess, isthe real question.
You know what I mean.
Like what's driving a 5kpackage versus a 10K package or

(28:10):
versus a 15 or 20K?

I find that it kind of depends on the student.
Like, we have our studentscomplete assignments and then we
actually give them tailoredfeedback on each thing, and so
one of those is creating theirpackages and structuring their
offers.
And the price point alwaysvaries depending on the student,
and there's no way thatsomebody's going to come into
our program only having booked a$200 project and then

(28:36):
successfully book a $10K project, because there has to be some
confidence and some inner workthat happens in between those
price points.
So they're probably going topresent us packages that start
at, let's say, 3k, whereassomeone else with a little bit
more experience booking higherpackages might present their
packages starting at 5K or 6K.

(28:57):
And so it's really all aboutthe student and where they're at
and how confident they are intheir current skillset and
services.
Obviously, we encourage them tocharge more and give them
feedback about it, but it reallyis an independent per student
basis.

Josh Hall (29:13):
And I'm curious do you guys see this working with
high ticket offers, If folkshave a low ticket offer of some
sort, or do you just see moststudents have success with just
having a high ticket offer?
Because this is a question Iget a lot which is like should I
have like a $99 audit orsomething that's less than $500

(29:35):
to get them in the door tohopefully upsell a high ticket
offer?
How do you guys, do yourecommend balancing a low ticket
offer and a high ticket offer,or does that muddy the waters
and make things confusing?

I love talking about it like a meal you have
your appetizer, you have yourmain and you have the dessert
for the aftercare, so like.
But you can't build that all atonce.
So let's build up the maincourse first, and then we can
build a supporting offer, whatleads into that for your
appetizer.
And then what do your clientsneed after they're no longer

(30:10):
your client?
How can you support them afterthat?
So I think that that needs tobe built in stages, but I think
when all those things worktogether, they work really,
really well and you have areally good client flow, because
then you know exactly wherethey're at.
I also think, in developingthat, one of the things that we
talk about a lot is how educateddo you want your client to be

(30:33):
before they become your client,and so that appetizer offer,
that smaller offer, really helpsthem become ready to be a
perfect client for the maincourse.

Josh Hall (30:46):
That's a great analogy.
Also, I mean'm eating lunchafter this, so perfect timing,
marissa, to get me hungry beforewe go to lunch here With that
idea.
What do you tell students whotell you I'm just attracting or
I'm just finding low payingclients or cheap leads?
Do you find that, yes, that'strue.

(31:07):
Or do you find that they'rejust not presenting a high offer
, they're not selling theirvalue enough?

I haven't really done, Sorry.
You want to go ahead?

You go right after I say this you teach
people.

Sorry, just go, I'm silent.

You teach people how to treat you, and so if you
are putting a cheap vibe outthere, that's what you're going
to bring in like you are in amagnet for what you put out.
So, first and foremost, we needto look at the the things
you're posting and talking aboutto get those clients.
So that's what we would look atfirst.

Yeah, just to follow up with that.
To give an example, I was onthreads the other day and I see
this designer and she's like I'mso done with clients, I just
keep getting ghosted after Isend my prices and blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah and I go lookat her services and she's
offering a logo suite for $150.
And so I nicely responded andI'm like that's your problem.

(32:10):
You are presenting as a veryseverely underpriced designer,
you're attracting low budget,low commitment clients and, as a
result, you're getting ghosted.
So a lot of people struggle tocharge higher ticket rates and
they stay in this range wherethey're not necessarily
affordable for these reallylower budget, cheap clients.

(32:33):
But then they're also notpositioning themselves as a high
ticket designer for those highbudget, higher ticket clients
and I see that a lot and themindset stuff really helps them
get out of that and be like oh,I can start my prices at 5k or
6k or whatever it is.

Josh Hall (32:50):
You mentioned, you're a fan of pricing transparency.
Do you guys recommend pricingbeing shown on the websites?
This is a huge, especially inweb design.
This is a huge like do I hidemy pricing?
Do I show it?
There's like 5050.
It seems like with people whoare like you have got to show
your pricing, and then 50% ofthe markets like you have got to

(33:11):
hide your pricing and sell itbefore they see a price to
understand the value, when doyou guys stand?

Starting at X amount of dollars and I even
have on my application form likea little checkbox that they
have to be like.
I agree to the minimuminvestment of $6,500 because I
don't want to waste my time, Idon't want to waste their time.
So you know what you're gettinginto and I am a mom of twins.

(33:38):
I got a lot going on.
I'm busy and so if I can't findsomebody's price on their
website, I'm moving on to thenext person.
I don't care how good your workis Like.
That's a waste of time to makeme wait to know if I can afford
you or not.
So I think at least having astarting price really really
helps.

Josh Hall (33:57):
I've also seen average investment on pricing
pages If they don't have rangesor anything publicly.
I have seen that work as wellas an additional option and I'm
in the same boat.

I love a starting at like ranges, ranges basically
what I don't love what I don'tlove that that designers
constantly do is say what isyour budget?
I'm just like nobody is evergoing to reveal the full actual
budget they have, which, ifyou're a new designer, you're

(34:29):
brand new to the industry.
Maybe that is something thatyou do want to do for the time
being, so you can get on callsand practice actually conducting
calls with clients, but at somepoint you're probably going to
want to command your value bysaying I'm not getting up out of
bed to get on a call unless youagree to the starting price.
And, like I always like to say,if you go out to the

(34:53):
hairdresser and they cut yourhair like they're going to be
okay, this is the price of thishaircut, they're not going to be
like okay.
So what's your budget for this,right?
So like I feel like creativesall the time always are stuck in
this mindset of I have tonegotiate, no, you don't.

Josh Hall (35:10):
Well, and especially depending on the process, of
where you're talking to leads,like if you're talking on the
phone with a really qualifiedleader in a meeting and you get
the scope of the project andthen you find out a budget range
.
That's a different ballgamethan yeah On your website saying
what's your budget.
Cause I mean, like 99.9 percentof people I'm sure are are
selecting, if anything, the verylowest plan, because they're

(35:33):
going to be like well, I wasthinking like 10, but if they'll
do it for five, let's see whatthey can get done for five.

I would, as a business owner, be like yeah,
let's see if we can save fivegrand shoot yeah, like you're,
you're giving an opportunity tolose out on money and leave
money on the table when you dothat.

Josh Hall (35:49):
Yeah, no, totally.
Are you guys helping webdesigners, brand designers and
graphic designers?
Do you have certain buckets ofof students?

I'd say a lot of our students are especially
interested in offering branddesign.
We have had some people comethrough our program that just
offer web design and we've hadpeople come to our program who
are new to graphic design as awhole and they're kind of
gaining clarity about do I wantto be a brand designer?
Is that something I want tooffer?
Do I want to offer illustration?
So a lot of times we areserving mostly brand and web

(36:24):
designers, but we've had a fewpeople who offer other services
or go through our programthinking they want to be a
designer and then at the endthey're like oh, I actually want
to be a coach or I want to.
You know, do this other thing?
That's in an adjacent industry.
So, um, a lot of the stuff weteach can be applied to other
creative industries.
I'm sure, as you know, there'sa lot of overlap.

Josh Hall (36:45):
Sure, and real quick side note what do you guys feel
like the difference is between abrand designer and a graphic
designer?
Cause I see those waters get alittle muddy with people.

Um, brand designers design brand
identities for the business Um,and they are very targeted in
that Um, and I think graphicdesigners kind of is a
definitely a muddy term.
You're right when you say thatof just kind of like all design
anything, brochures, businesscards, like anything under the

(37:18):
umbrella that can be designed.
So I think that, yeah, you gotto niche down, you got to decide
kind of where you want to be,Cause if you're serving everyone
, if you're for everybody, thenyou're kind of for nobody.
So, uh, we always highlyrecommend that people niche down
um by something.
It doesn't just have to beindustry, it can also be

(37:40):
personality, it can be style,lots of different ways to niche
down there.
But yeah, that's what I wouldsay.

Josh Hall (37:47):
That's good.
I'm just thinking back becauseI notoriously offered web design
and graphic design, because Istarted out as a graphic
designer and then got into weband I think the industry back
then, 10 years ago plus, lookedvery different.
Yeah, designers back in.

(38:08):
I mean, I started in 2009.
So 2010, 11, 12, 13,.
I don't even remember seeingthe term brand design, it was
just graphic designer.
So, if I were doing it today, in2025, I would definitely.
If I was mixing both together,I would say brand and web
designer for sure, because I dofeel like graphic designer just

(38:28):
sets you up to be a pixel pusherdoing brochures versus a brand
designer.
It's pretty clear like you'redesigning a brand and those may
be assets or parts of it, butthere's a bigger business
picture, I feel like, with theterm brand design.

Yeah, and it's so funny, I still feel like today
it's very not known, like it'svery like we know what a brand
designer is.
People in the online space knowwhat a brand designer is, but
like I go to a networkingdesigner is.
People in the online space knowwhat a brand designer is, but
like I go to networking events,I'm like I'm a brand and web
designer.
Oh, you're a web designer.
Literally, they don't even payattention to the term and so,
like I have to, you know, talkwith them more and educate them

(39:03):
more for them to reallyunderstand.
It's like they don't even seethat that term isn't there.

Josh Hall (39:13):
Yeah, that's.
That backs up what I've beensaying for years, which would so
many people wonder what shouldI call myself or how do I
introduce myself?
And I would love to tell peoplelike, just call yourself a
fractional consultant or a branddesigner or whatever.
But I was like you know what,if you say web design, peep,
that leads to everything else.
Web designer still leads tobecause they just assume the
average person just assumes, ohmy gosh, you can do social media

(39:35):
and digital marketing and runads and you can do our logo and
you can do our styles, like itreally does truly still today.
Just, I'm like, just callyourself a web designer and then
, once you get to a certainpoint, you can really, you know,
you know push as consultant orpartner, but web designer will
open the doors to everythingelse Still.

I recently have repositioned myself as a brand
director because I highly enjoycreative directing, like photo
shoots and stuff.
They were always asking me tobe like well, you know how it
all needs to look, can youplease come to the photo shoot?
And I was like, yeah, actually,let's go.
Then I don't have to make you awhole list and pray that you
get it.
I'll just go there and get itmyself.

(40:15):
So I really like thatrepositioning too, and I think
that right around the cornerthere's going to be a whole
bunch of new names and titlesand ways we can reposition
ourselves for our specialtiesand stuff.
So I'm looking forward to that.

Josh Hall (40:29):
And it may just depend too right, like maybe on
LinkedIn, if you're connectingwith a lot of folks who are
savvy in the industry and youare speaking with a lot of
brands and marketing directors,then, yeah, brand director may
be a perfect term because thatsays a lot more than a web
designer.
But yeah, if you're in anin-person networking group with
some construction company folksand you know lawyer and a law

(40:54):
group with some constructioncompany folks and you know
lawyer and a lawyer, a dentistor whatever, if you say web
designer, you're gonna yeah,you're gonna get those leads.
So there's probably a time anda place to have like all your
titles, you know scattered yeahthe online space is way easier
to like.

90 of my high ticket design clients come from
social media, and I think it'smuch easier to speak to my dream
clients through the internetbecause a lot of the people in
the online space are alreadyfamiliar with these things,
whereas when I meet the peoplein person, it's more like, oh
Lord, okay, I'm going to have todo a lot more educating and a

(41:30):
lot have have greaterconversation with them for them
to grasp what I do beyond justweb design kinsey, how are you
attracting high ticket leadsthrough your your social media
in particular?
primarily instagram, and it'sdefinitely shifting like in 2023

(41:50):
.
Instagram and tiktok werereally big, now it's more so.
Instagram and I have joined alocal coworking space for women
and I joined a local women's andnetworking group and I am
starting to connect more withpeople in person, which is not
something that I have ever donesince really starting my
business.
What's your social media content, like I mean no-transcript and

(42:35):
I do a lot of short form videocontent.
That's really what blew myaccount up from the start.
I spent years just creatingstatic posts and made no
progress.
So when short form video cameout, that's what really helped
me grow.
But my website filters out mostof those people.
I mean I am.
It's pretty obvious that I'm ahigher ticket, luxury, premium

(42:56):
designer and I do have aquestion that's like are you
aware of this is going torequire a four figure investment
, like I start around 7k upperfour figures.
Are you aware of that?
So that filters out most people.
And then I will get some peoplewho like DM me and it goes in
my request.
It's like how much for a logo?
And most of the time I ignorethem unless it's a business that
I think I could potentiallywork with and shift their focus

(43:20):
onto.
Oh, you actually need branddesigner.
You need this thing that Ioffer.
You just don't know you need ityet.

Josh Hall (43:26):
So I love that you unpacked that for us, because I
think a lot of people are usingsocial media, instagram in
particular, to like do thefunneling of their leads, but I
think your, your process is isvery, very sound, which is to
get them to your website andthen the website is where you
funnel out the leads, because orfilter out the leads just

(43:47):
because it's really hard to dothat, I think, on social media
without a bunch of ongoing DMconversations, which is a trap
in a lot of ways.

Yeah, it's just a time suck.
And that's why I don't respondto them.
If you're serious about workingwith me and you're my dream
client, you're going to go lookat my website and you're
probably going to inquirethrough my website.

Josh Hall (44:09):
Marissa, what about you?
How do you go about attractinghigher ticket leads?
Because you come from adifferent background, a
different world.
It sounds like so.

I do, yeah, so I love in person and referrals
are my top like lead generator.
Um, the girl knows she's goingto take care of you.
They tell three friends, andthat's just how it's always been
for me from the start.
But I also, um, like I'll, I'llhave coffee with you, sure, but
like we're not moving forwardunless you fill out the

(44:40):
application and we get acontract signed.
Like I'll even bring thecontract to the meeting and we
can sign it right there, like onthe table.
So, um, I love being veryfriendly with my people.
I think that like I hold a lotof space for them and like
they're going through a bigtransformation and so, um,
sometimes that feels prettyrocky and so they just need to

(45:04):
make sure that I'm the rightperson for that and I get that.
So after that's all taken careof, then I'm like all right,
here's, here's the game plan andhow we're moving forward.
So I love that applicationprocess.
I think that once I implementedthat, that was really a game
changer, just because simplycalling it a contact form, like
that, doesn't sound luxury, butjust the simple change of

(45:27):
putting an application form,making it a little longer, preps
them for the experience thatthey can expect with that
investment.

Josh Hall (45:35):
Yeah, good call.
I also love that you bothexpanded on the fact that high
ticket can come from both inperson and online, Because I do
think there's a bit of a not astigma, but like a view that,
like online is just a bunch ofcold DMs and cheap, low-paying

(45:55):
Fiverr clients.
If you market yourselfcorrectly and, Kinsey, I think
you're a really good example ofYou're going to get bad leads
through social media, but youhave the filters in place that
are not time-intensive for you,you can absolutely get good
online clients, and the samething with in-person.
How are you, how are youvetting, uh in weeding out

(46:16):
in-person clients?
Then, Marissa, how have youdone that?
Notoriously Like if somebodytalks with you and you're like,
oh God, they've got $300 forsure.
This is like you just.
Are you like, oh, gotta go?

I talk about the investment before we meet Um,
just so you know, I want you togo take a look at my website, um
, you know the minimuminvestment for this looks like
$6,000.
Are you comfortable with that?
I don't want to waste our timeand usually they feel like like
very respected because I've saidthat cause I've set it up, and

(46:50):
that way we're both not wastingtime, like we're all real busy
people, we all have lives.
So I think, just being supertransparent about that um, and
open and honest about it, soalways set that up first, and I
think like, uh, I even call it apain in the ass tax that I add
to my proposals If I can tellthat somebody is going to need a

(47:13):
lot of extra tech support.
They don't know what a domainis or what their passwords are,
like I asked those questions,you know, in the in the meeting,
and so then I know I'm fineworking with that, but I know
that it's going to take a lotmore of my time, so I'm I'm
putting the proposal a littlehigher in my head as I'm
gathering this information.

Josh Hall (47:32):
Yeah, I have that in my discovery questionnaire,
which is if there's a little setof options that basically says
I have to look back at whatexactly I say.
But it's like where are youtechnology wise?
And it's like super savvy canfigure almost anything out.
I'm smarter than you, probably,and then one's like I can
barely turn on my computer.
Smarter than you, probably, andthen one's like I can barely

(47:53):
turn on my computer.
And yeah, if it's that one,then yeah, this is why going
back to the ranges are reallyimportant, because it's like
okay, we're gonna have a littlemore handholding here, depending
on the situation.
So I remember my firstexperience with this was I was
building a website for my mom'sCorvette Club one of my first
websites and the guy that wasgoing to be on the website asked

(48:15):
me how do I get my picturesfrom my camera to my computer?
And I was like, oh she is notallowed on the website.
No, no, no, no.
So those things are reallyimportant, especially when it
comes to a high ticket offer,because suddenly, a high ticket
offer, you could be making lessand less if you're spending more
and more and more time onsupport and some of these things

(48:36):
that aren't really clear.

I found that, you know, surprisingly enough, some
of the people who are not astech savvy are actually easier
for me to work with.

Josh Hall (48:46):
Yeah, If they let you do it right.

Yeah, maybe it's because they're older.
I don't know it right.
Yeah, maybe it's becausethey're older.
I don't know like, I recentlyjust had an ice cream shop
client and they were older andthey like almost had no
revisions and just let me dolike everything and I was like
cool, more you, yes and I thinkI think that gets into the.

Josh Hall (49:04):
Are they a non-tech savvy owner, like a business
owner, or are they a diyer?
Because if they're not savvyand they're trying to DIY,
that's where you get that typeof guy that I was mentioning.
But no, totally, kinsey, you'reright, those are the best.
If they're like you, do you, Igot my stuff to worry about.
That's the best type of client,because they let you do your

(49:26):
thing and they do their thingTotally Well.
This has been a fab.
We've covered a lot of groundin less than 50 minutes here,
guys.
It's been really good to unpacksome of the things that are in
high ticket offers how toposition them how to attract
some good clients who areprepared for that, and some

(49:46):
strategies and some marketing.

Wait, before we go , I need to hear your hot takes.
What are your hot takes on theindustry?
Because you asked us a lot ofquestions.
We haven't gotten to hear yourhot takes.
What are, what are your likehot takes on the industry?
Because you asked us a lot ofquestions.

Josh Hall (49:54):
We haven't gotten to hear a lot from you yet well, I
agree with a lot of what youguys do and in your practices.
There's really nothing that Iwas feel combative on or like.
No, I would take a differentapproach, I think, particularly
with the high ticket stuff,because it really all I think it
boils down to when somebody ischoosing their business model as

(50:16):
a brand graphic or web designer, do you want to go quality or
quantity?
Because you can make verysimilar amounts or even more
amounts with either one of thesepaths.
But you could go reallyproductized and more low-end
offers and do it at scale and doads and have a really automated
system and not be personallyinvolved with every client as

(50:36):
much, and that's fine.
I know web designers who do thatand like that, but I think it
depends on the goals, becauseI'm a little more of a.
I'd rather have less clientsand know them more and be more
personally involved and have ahigher ticket route and know
them more and be more personallyinvolved and have higher the
higher ticket route, and so,yeah, that's I mean really like
all those practices that we've,you know, kind of opened up here

(51:00):
.
I think it really all goes tothat of like the quality over
quantity.
Do you want a lot of clientsand sell it at scale and have a
different business model, or doyou want to be a little more
involved?
Neither is right or wrong, butit seems like you guys are
helping more folks who are inthe quality over quantity.
So that's my biggest hot take isreally like you just got to

(51:21):
decide.
You know, what do you want.
What type of business do youwant?
If you don't want to take callsand you don't want to know your
clients, you know if you reallydon't personally care about
people as much.
I think it's important to bereally honest about that and be
like yeah, you should have avery different business model,
because clients are going totell too whether you truly care

(51:42):
or whether you're like a doucheyhustler agency owner and it's
like dude, you just need to havea product or a SaaS company or
do it at scale.

Yeah, I actually just got done interviewing
someone who worked at a companyand they scaled to like over a
hundred K per month offering $59per month websites and it was.
It wasn't I wouldn't say aneglectful business model,
because the audience they wereserving was like mental health

(52:13):
professionals who were theydidn't offer insurance, they
didn't really have the funds fora custom website, they didn't
want to handle the tech stuffand so, like they were handling
it for them, they were prettymuch giving a template out and,
like, would you know, slightlymodify it, but it was working
really well for the people theywere serving.

Josh Hall (52:38):
Yeah, and that's the thing right, like all of these
options can work.
That I think that's what's.
Uh.
It presents a challenge to alot of people getting into the
design industry as a whole now,because it's like it really does
all work, like you can haveyour pricing up front on your
website.
You can say what's your budget,you can.
You know there's pros and cons.
You can have your pricing upfront on your website.
You can say what's your budget,you can.
There's pros and cons.
I have an approach where you getleads through the door and then
you offer the ranges once youdecide whether they're

(53:00):
questionable or qualified leads.
But some people get to a pointwhere it's like you don't really
need to do that anymore.
Now you may leave with paiddiscovery.
You may have a really highticket offer where you're only
working with maybe half a dozenclients a year or a dozen
clients, or you may havesomething that's in the middle
of that and a scaled offer andyou may have like 50 clients a

(53:21):
year, or you may have like thatI don't know how many clients
they were having a lot at 59 amonth, you may have hundreds or
thousands.
So it really does all work.
I think it's a matter ofhelping people have a clearer
path on what aligns with theirgoals.
That's kind of my big challengethat I've set for myself with
my community is based off ofwhere people are and where they

(53:43):
want to get to, based off theirversion of a freedom lifestyle,
business, aligning the offersand pricing and structure around
that.
Um, because it's you know evenwhat I do today it's.
Some people are like I think Iwant to do a community and have
courses and I'm like I don'tknow if you're going to like it,
you know like I don't, I don'tknow it's not as easy as it

(54:06):
looks.
No, and I would, because I didboth.
I will say having aservice-based business is way
easier than this type ofbusiness.
I see you both nodding.
It really is truly easier.
I mean, I built a six-figurebusiness.
I didn't know what the hell Iwas doing, so that's really hard
to do as a community builder orcourse creator or online

(54:29):
educator.
So, yeah, I think it is one ofthose things where it's like you
know it looks, it looks like itmight be easy, but yeah, maybe
you just need to be reallyself-aware about you know, what
do you want your schedule tolook like?
What do you want to offer?

Well, and we also just had one of our students
create her first like logo,mascot, course or whatever.
And I've been talking to her,or whatever, how's it going?
And she's like this is wayharder than booking clients.
And I'm like isn't it?

Josh Hall (54:53):
Yes.

I have way more respect and admiration for how
you guys sell yourselves andstuff.
It's so hard and I'm like Iknow.

Josh Hall (55:03):
I think it looks easy and it's something that's done
one to many, which is reallyappealing, and it's like, oh my
gosh, make a course or programand just put it online and just
watch people buy it.
But there's just so much moreto that and I found there's a
lot of things that are hard tomeasure.
With intangibles and thingslike building trust, it's like

(55:25):
you can't really measurebuilding trust.
You know what I mean.
This, this podcast, is mybiggest channel, it's my biggest
converter, but it is very hardto track unless somebody says,
hey, I listen to your podcast,Now I'm in your community.
It's a lot different than likea paid ads campaign, where
you're tracking clicks and datais a little more measurable.

(55:47):
I think there's a lot of thatthat makes this world so much
more challenging.
And even, like withservice-based businesses, it's
pretty easy to say like, allright, I got 10 calls booked
this month.
How many move forward?
Okay, two, so 20% conversion.
That's very easy to measure.
It's not the case.
I mean, how many people arelooking at your guys' websites

(56:07):
on your email list and you'relike, probably not exactly sure.
Like, where did you come fromexactly?
I mean, we can measure the bestwe can, but it's very hard to
get into that.

Yeah, that's been a big challenge.
For us is number one.
I mean just, we did a wholepodcast last year called 2024
trauma dump about everything wedid wrong.
And literally our businessessentially went to zero at the
brief collective and it's it'sjust a whole different world
being leaders and educatingothers and being in the

(56:39):
spotlight of a quote unquotementor, especially in the
society we are right now, wherethere are a lot of scams out
there.
There are a lot of courses thataren't genuine and so we have to
, like you know, go up againstthat, and sometimes it's very
hard to say, hey, we are legit.
Look at all these testimonials,look at all these student

(57:01):
reviews.
But it's so easy for someone tojust come across one video on
the internet and be like you'rea scam and like talk bad, but
they haven't done any research,they don't know.

They're just a keyboard warrior, that's okay.
We're always gonna have those.
I love being a mentor, though,because just being able to, like
I said at the beginning, leavethe industry better than how we
found it that's the whole reasonwe started this thing in the
first place is because this isthe course we wish we had at the
very beginning.
We've like packed our brainsinto it, everything that we wish
we knew from day one, so that,hopefully, you can learn from

(57:39):
the mistakes we made and youwon't make that in your business
.

Josh Hall (57:44):
Well, perfect segue, because you guys have a course
and you guys have some resources.
And I asked you I think beforewe hit record about whether you
have like an ongoing offer orwhether it's open and closed
with more of the cohort.
The differences between mycommunity, which is open all the
time, and then your guys'cohort based course, is a good
example of like I like what I'mdoing right now.
I like the model, it's suitingme well.

(58:06):
But you guys like the open andclosed approach because you're,
because I think you're, a littlemore intensive, particularly
with a round of people who dothings together.
So even our businesses are agood example of both ways where
I could go cohort or you couldgo open 24-7.
They could both work, but itjust depends on Do you like it,
what's getting the best results,what's working for you?

(58:26):
So, yeah, tell us about yourcourse and where folks can
connect with you online ifthey're interested in more.
I know you have both some freecontent and the open and closed
cohort right, so tell us aboutthat.

Yeah.
So Design Biz Academy Universityis our signature program where
we teach designers how to book10k clients and ditch the
starving artist mentality.
We open it only a few times ayear with limited spots, and
that is simply because the magicthat happens when you have
people together at the same paceand there's literally like

(58:59):
neuroscience and proof that whenyou're surrounded by supportive
, positive people on the samejourney, encouraging each other,
like it feeds into a positivecycle.
So part of the reason we'vealways kept it this way is
because we've seen thetransformations our students
have.
We've seen them build realrelationships and get real
results from having a model likethis, and I think it allows for

(59:24):
more tailored feedback.
It allows for us to buildrelationships with them, whereas
we couldn't really teach themthe same way as if we had an
evergreen program, and I thinkyou can still get value out of
an evergreen program.
I absolutely think they work.
But that's just how we'veapproached our experience at the
brief collective.
And then we also have a YouTubechannel We've been putting.

(59:45):
We literally have like a 30minute course on there and
that's like how to go from zeroto 10 K a month as a designer,
so like we have a lot ofresources out there for people
that want to get startedcharging higher ticket rates,
and we also have a free sixfigure designer community, so
that's a great place to also geta little extra layer of support
without a price tag.

Josh Hall (01:00:05):
Sweet, sweet.
We'll have all those linked upand, yeah, I think the key term
there, too, is a program versuslike a community, like mine's,
really structured as a community, which is why Evergreen tends
to work.
But, yeah, I think, with like areally clear outcome like you
guys are getting.
I love that it's working foryou real quick.
I can go a few minutes if youguys have a few.
Do you have a hard stop?

(01:00:25):
Right now we're at the top ofthe hour, um, what?
So we'll just, instead ofturning the recording off and
hearing about this, I'm curiouswe'll just keep on rolling.
What went to zero in 2024 foryou guys?
What was the pivot and thechange that you guys had to make
?

Kenzi Green (01:00:39):
what happened?
The whole business?
Um, I mean we just we had ourfirst retreat in 2024 for
designers and I know you've donesome in-person stuff as well
Stupidly didn't budget for thatproperly at all.
We lost money.
We had team membersunexpectedly leave, whole team

(01:01:04):
left.
We invested in a team photoshoot, couldn't use any of the
photos.
We were very kind probably tookind as leaders and I think that
we just learned a lot aboutwhat it means to manage people
last year and also like the costthat comes with doing in-person
stuff.
I mean, up until that point, wehad only been online, so we

(01:01:26):
just made a lot of badinvestments.
We hired an ads agency foreight grand and we got the same
amount of students that we weregetting organically.
Marissa, do you want to add onto any of this Our trauma?

Marisa Burgett (01:01:41):
Honestly, it's a freaking blur for me, man.
But yeah, the team member thingreally rocked the boat because
that's like you know, yoursupport, your front lines.
And yeah, not being able to usethe photos really sucks,
because we highly depend onphoto shoots because we're not

(01:02:03):
in the same state.
So not being able to use all ofthat sucked really badly,
because then you're like, well,there goes like 80% of the
content we got that day, um.

Josh Hall (01:02:15):
So yeah, we, we made a big old list of things we will
never do again, um so realquick, you got the, you got the
brand photo shoot with like allyour team and then they left, so
you're basically like anunusable collection of images.
Is that right?

Correct, yeah and um, I mean just to get into the
nitty gritty of it.
So people learn from ourmistakes.
We even allowed them to takesome of their own photos for
their own business on our dime,because we just we they also had
design businesses.
We want them to succeed andagain, that was a mistake.
So, like I think this is partof that leadership role I was

(01:02:51):
talking about, where it's a lotdifferent trying to build
something like we're buildingand having to learn how to
manage people with boundaries.
We're very chill, we're veryfun, we like to have a good time
.
Our students know that that'sthe vibe of our community.
But that can also get verymessy when you have a team of
people that's supposed to beworking under you the in-person

(01:03:14):
thing.

Josh Hall (01:03:14):
Are you guys gonna do it again?
Are you gonna try it again uh,you know, with a different lens,
because I loved our first bigin-person event, but I'm happy
to share I loved I loved, loved,loved our retreat, like the
students that came.

It was so magical to be able to just sit
across from them and like heartheir stories, like that.
It's just it's so different.
And so we are doing a anotherretreat this year, called
scaling summit, in August, andit's going to be on a beachfront
property like the mostbeautiful place ever.
We have a few more tickets left, actually, and yeah, I'm I'm

(01:03:53):
really excited to do it again,but I would love to know what
you learned Um, cause I lovelearning from from other people
Get sponsors.

Josh Hall (01:04:02):
That's what I learned is to get sponsors behind it
because, yeah, I would have hadto charge like way more to cover
our costs.
But, thanks to getting we hadthree sponsors for the event and
they're all tools that I useand I already kind of had
relationships built with thesebrands, so it wasn't a hard sell

(01:04:22):
or anything, but that was huge.
Otherwise, yeah, we would havelost a lot of money.
It's funny because it seemslike I delayed doing an event
for like two years just becauseI was so terrified of losing a
lot of money.
It's funny because it seemslike I delayed doing an event
for like two years just becauseI was so terrified of losing a
lot of money and I wasn't in theposition until last year to be
able to do that reallytransparently.
So, yeah, I wanted to make sure.
Like okay, I got a roughestimate of like okay, I think

(01:04:45):
this is going to be at least$10,000 out of pocket, so we're
going to need at least that muchEnded up being nearly $13,000
total in costs altogether, but Igot $16,000 in sponsorships and
ticket sales on top of that, sowe were profitable, or no?
No, no, I'm sorry.
It ended up being almost$15,000 altogether with our size

(01:05:08):
of 40 people and that coveredworkshop meals, some socials and
some other stuff, swag and allthat.
So, yeah, we're, yeah, we endedup positive.
So that was the big thing.
I want to be more profitablenext year, just because the
amount of time on my end that ittakes.
But it was still a win for sure.
But I couldn't have done thatwithout the sponsors, without
having tickets be three or fouror five times more than they

(01:05:31):
were.

Well, maybe we're just fucking crazy, I don't know
.
The Airbnb we got this year was$18,000 just to the Airbnb.
That's more of a conferencestyle model which you know,
maybe that is something that weneed to consider, because we

(01:05:56):
spent way more than we shouldhave probably again, and doing a
retreat is so expensive Like weget a private chef, you have to
pay for the property.
Then, if you want to have agood amount of people, you have
to pay for the property.
Then if you want to have, youknow, a good amount of people,
it has to be a big property.
And so I've noticed that a lotof the more conference style

(01:06:18):
ones are more affordable fordesigners, and I think that's a
big issue as well.
Like, when we do an intimateretreat, the tickets have to be
much more expensive, whereasmaybe we were to do a conference
, we could sell way more ticketsfor a way less amount.
So that's something we'redefinitely, like, open to
exploring.
We've just never done that.

Josh Hall (01:06:38):
Yeah, I think you hit the nail on the head there.
It is the difference between aconference and a retreat, and
ours was 40 people, so it waslike it was a very small
conference technically, whichwas perfect though, like.
Like we're going to do it againin 26 and it's going to be a
cap of 50 people.
I think over 50 is a verydifferent ballgame, because then
you're getting into, like youknow, that's just too many

(01:06:59):
people to meet and keep up within the span of a couple of days.
But with the retreat, are youguys looking at like a dozen or
a couple dozen people?
How many people are for theretreat?

This property can fit up to 20 okay so we've we've
filled a lot of the rooms.
We do have some left and wehave like some of the rooms are
private rooms that we have leftand some of them are the shared
rooms.
But this retreat is probably itis the property is probably
double the size of the one wedid the first time.
We just loved it so much, eventhough we had lost money last

(01:07:34):
year.
The being with our students,being with creatives who get you
in the same room, and havingthe in-person education, the
in-person workshops, doingphotos together, making content
together, it was just, it waslike a dream, it was like a
blast.
Content together, it was just,it was like a dream, it was like
a blast.
And so, of course, even thoughthe revenue wasn't there, we

(01:07:57):
were like we have to make thishappen again.
Like the design industrydoesn't really get a lot of
retreats like this.
They get a lot of conferencesand summits that are, you know,
maybe more broad.
But we wanted to like reallyniche down and bring designers
together in a really intimateway, like we did the first time.
And so we were like let's do itagain.

Josh Hall (01:08:14):
That's true.
Yeah, I do feel like it'susually business owners or
coaches or something like thatwho have the retreats.
Um, but, yeah, you're right,designers are typically a summit
or something, and it is youknow what.
You're totally right.
Like there's so much power,live and being in person more
now than ever.
I think, um, I feel like events, if you can break even, that's

(01:08:35):
usually a fine trade off.
Ideally, you don't want to losemoney at all, or not much, at
least Cause technically, like ifthey're going to continue
enrolling in the program and andlike for me, the event was
mostly about retention, like Iwant to bring us together
finally, and I mean, how manypeople, I wonder, went there and
were like, oh, I'm staying inpro, like I'm, this is, this is,
these are my people?
Um, it can't be worth it.

(01:08:57):
I think, wow, to think withthat lens, for sure.
But, um, yeah, hopefully youguys can do some stuff to help
make it a little more profitable, whether it's sponsors or just
something else that can fill insome of those gaps.
Because, yeah, I can onlyimagine.
I mean, yeah, the one retreathouse was more than our budget
for all the stuff we did for ourconference.

So yeah, I don't know what we're thinking.
We'll report back at the end ofthe year.

Josh Hall (01:09:20):
Trauma dump 2025.
It'll be worth it to get thepeople together again, for sure.
No doubt Awesome this has beenreally great.

Thank you so much for having us and asking such
like insightful questions well,you guys made this easy.

Josh Hall (01:09:35):
It was really fun picking your brains.
Since you're both, you know youhave different skill sets in
different uh lanes, as it were.
So yeah, kinsey Marissa, thanksfor coming on and sharing all
this.
And, uh, I think I'm on yourshow, is that right?

yeah, I think coming up, coming up.
So I'm excited your show, isthat right?
Yeah, I think coming up, comingup.

Josh Hall (01:09:52):
So I'm excited to turn the tables and be on the
other side, so maybe I'll sharesome more of my hot takes then,
if that sounds good.

Yeah, that'll be great.

Josh Hall (01:10:01):
Awesome.
Thanks guys.

Thank you.

Josh Hall (01:10:05):
I hope you enjoyed that one, friends.
Again.
I wasn't really ever a part ofthe high ticket world so well.
I mean my prices were highticket but I never framed them
as high ticket.
So I do hope you enjoyed thisone and that you got some good
tips to be able to think abouthow you are structuring your
packages and your offers andjust that underlying principle

(01:10:26):
of the better your pricing, thebetter your clients.
So cheers to that, my friendsAgain.
The show notes at this one aregoing to be found at joshhallco
slash 389.
So zip over there and you cancheck Kinsey and Marissa both
out at thebriefcollectivecom,where they have free and paid
resources there for you if youwould like to dive further into
their world.
That's thebriefcollectivecom.

(01:10:46):
Thanks to both Kinsey andMarissa for sharing some good
ones on this one and I can'twait to hear from you.
So leave us a comment.
Joshhallco slash 389.
Till next time.

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389 - Selling High-Ticket Design Services with Kenzi Green & Marisa Burgett

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}389 - Selling High-Ticket Design Services with Kenzi Green & Marisa Burgett