397 - Life as a Corporate Web Designer with Chris Webb - Web Design Business with Josh Hall

Episode Transcript
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Chris Webb (00:00):
I will say this and this is in terms of corporate is
you have to want to be better.
It's very easy to go tocorporate places and for lack of
a better term die.
A lot of people will go tothese companies and they will
ride it out into the sunset andnever learn a new thing ever

(00:20):
again, especially really bigcompanies that can't can't
change uh as fast.
Um, a lot of people, just likeI just I just want a paycheck,
but I do think that it is kindof a.
It's a blessing and a curse,because in this industry, you'll
always have a job if you wantto keep learning.

(00:41):
But if you get left behindbecause you're just not
interested in it anymore, Ithink it's more difficult for
you in the future.

Josh Hall (00:56):
Welcome to the Web Design Business Podcast, with
your host, josh Hall, helpingyou build a web design business
that gives you freedom and alifestyle you love.
Hey, my friend, now what aspecial episode I have for you
in this one.
For many reasons, but I'll juststart by saying this.
When I began my career in webdesign, my initial goal was just

(01:21):
to get a job as a web designer.
My thought was for an agency ora business or a corporation.
I thought that was going to beit, that was going to be the
dream, but I quickly realizedabout myself that corporate is
not for me.
I enjoy freelancing andentrepreneurship, the risk and
reward that this lifestyleprovides.

(01:44):
However, I realize that that'snot for everybody, so I'm so
excited to share a conversationI had recently with a web
designer who has been acorporate web designer for two
decades now over two decades andhe also happens to be one of my
closest friends.
This is Chris Webb.
Chris has worked both as anagency web designer and

(02:07):
corporate web designer anddeveloper again for many years,
and he has a very uniqueperspective on the pros and cons
of being a agency versuscorporate web designer, but he
also does freelance on the side,so he knows quite a bit about
the stresses and challenges of afreelance web designer.
So that's what we're going toget into in this one.
I don't want to encourage youto take one path or the other,

(02:31):
because not one path is right orwrong, but if you're interested
, like I am, in what it's liketo be a corporate web designer
nowadays, I think you'll learn alot from Chris and maybe you
are in a corporate role and yourealize that things have gotten
stagnant and stale.
I hope you learn from Chris andare able to take a lot away
into where you are in yourjourney.

(02:51):
And if you're done withcorporate and you want to come
to freelance, I hope to be theone to help you there when you
join my community web designerpro.
So without further ado, here ismy good friend, chris Webb,
freelancer agency corporate webdesigner, all the above, all
around awesome guy with decadesof experience, and I'm excited
to see what you take from him.

(03:12):
You can go to the show notes forthis episode, which are going
to be at joshhallco slash 397.
All the links will be overthere.
You can also check Chris out.
We will have his website linkedover there.
You can also go tochrisvwebwith2bscom.
If you'd like to go check himout, say hey, tell him.
You heard him on the Web DesignBusiness Podcast.
Without further ado, let's hearabout what it's like to be a

(03:34):
corporate web designer.
Chris, what this is wild man.
We do this in person.
So to see you in Riverside thisfeels like a different
experience.
But, man, I'm so pumped tocatch up and actually record one
of our conversations.
Every time we hang out and weleave I'm like, ah, I wish we

(03:56):
were to recorded some of that.

Chris Webb (03:58):
So thanks for taking some time, dude, all we're
missing is the big uh busycoffee shop, yeah, a nice loud
coffee shop.

Josh Hall (04:06):
We're like what, what was that?
Uh, well, kristin, I want tosay, uh, I can't believe we've
I've had the podcast for likesix years and I haven't chatted
with you publicly.
Yeah, but I I just want to takethis time to to say like a
sincere thank you.
Uh, when I think about when Igot started in design and web
design, there was really liketwo kind of like mentors a local

(04:30):
business owner who helped meget started and you.
You were preceding all that.
I mean, you were like the firstperson I knew who was in
graphic design and I rememberbeing super jealous of your
office at the NAS when you didgraphic design.
I thought that was so cool.
When I was working, my cabinetmaking shop was like, oh my gosh
, one day I'd love to be likechris and you know, go into an
office and do design work.

(04:50):
That would be amazing.

Chris Webb (04:51):
So and now you've taken off, man, now, uh, now I,
I want to be like you.
I I like how this, uh, how this, this works.

Josh Hall (05:00):
So yeah, what's the star wars?
the, the apprentice, has becomethe master yeah, seriously, yeah
, well and what's so cool, man,is, like you know, we've both
taken, we've stayed on similartrajectories, although we have,
like you know, we have differentpaths, of course, but you've
still stayed really consistentin design and last time we
talked, I mean you're superentrepreneurial, uh, in all of

(05:21):
your endeavors, but endeavors,but you've continued to like
stay at the kind of I view youas like a bit of like the
leading edge of of just designin general, with both web and
then AI.
Now, so, um, yeah, man, I justI just wanted to say thank you
because when I think back to him, like gosh, you were such a
huge help.
I mean, remember when I got myfirst Mac?

(05:43):
Do you remember that?

Chris Webb (05:44):
when I got my Mac, yeah, the iMac in your, uh, in
your, in your your parents'basement or something.
Yeah, yeah, my dad's basement.

Josh Hall (05:51):
I was like dude, chris, I got a Mac and you were
just like holy cow, I'll be overin five.

Chris Webb (05:56):
I did, I came over that day, yeah, awesome.

Josh Hall (05:59):
Yep, showed me how to use it and everything.
And then, uh, I mean, one of myfirst big uh experiences that
really made me fall in love withdesign in general was going to
that Photoshop conference withyou, that, like you know, all
day in-depth Photoshopconference, which was incredible
.
So, yeah, man, I just wanted tosay publicly dude, thank you
for taking me under your wing.
You really helped me get goingyears ago dude.

Chris Webb (06:21):
Well, listen man, the the honor is uh all mine, um
, pleasure is all mine.
It's um, yeah, I mean just, Imean you did all the work and
honestly, it was just me showingup to your guys's band and you
guys were, um, you know, I meanyou were drumming at the time
and so I I think that was likeour first engagement on on web

(06:44):
stuff.
They were like we need awebsite and so we ended up
talking that was, you know,aaron or whoever it was and yeah
, so you, you did all the work,man, I just I, I just got to
enjoy the ride.

Josh Hall (06:55):
It was awesome well, I remember, I do remember when
we were in the band days talkingabout a website and I think
maybe I had just starteddabbling into web design or had
thought about it, I had alreadybeen doing graphic design.
And I remember asking you likeyou know what would like a
typical band five to 10 pagewebsite be?
And you were.
You said like a couple hundredbucks a page probably, and that

(07:18):
like blew my mind.
I was like what I was appalledand offended at.
You know, a website that may bea thousand dollars and of
course now it's like, well, yeah, obviously starting range.
So, um, it is.
I mean you, you you've been infreelance pretty much since day
one, right, like just give uslike the like, how long have you
been in design, graphic designand web?

(07:40):
I mean, I remember you doing itin high school.
I remember you playing aroundwith Photoshop in high school.

Chris Webb (07:44):
Yeah Well, so I guess I guess my story goes um
you and I were in art togetherin high school, and so art was
always a passion of mine, and,uh, I'd taken like a commercial
art class I think it's what theycall it then.
And then, um, I didn't, Ididn't really know what I was
going to do with myself.
I signed up to go to ColumbusCollege of Art and Design in

(08:04):
Columbus.

Josh Hall (08:06):
That's right.
I forgot you went to CCAD.
That's right, yeah.

Chris Webb (08:09):
I went there for six months and then I stopped
showing up to classes and I justrealized that my passion was
not in drawing for the rest ofmy life.
And so actually and I have tothrow a kudos over to my
brother-in-law, wes Um, heactually took me under his wing

(08:31):
when I was at the church and hewas doing web design and all
that stuff freelance and so, um,so while I was going to school
he was just basically likementoring me when I wasn't in
class and um, and then yeah, Ikind of took off from there.
He kind of uh thrown me, uh, hehad kind of networked with me a
little bit, introduced me to afew other people that are in the

(08:53):
industry.
Uh, once I stopped going toCCAD, I switched over to
Columbus state, went to thecommunity college there, just
enough to get a job, and then,um, and then, yeah, I don't
know't know big kudos, my bigkudos is the west, so I wouldn't
be doing what I'm doing today.
But yeah, the design work iswhat really got me into the web
in general and I mean, now I'mI'm developing almost all the

(09:14):
time.

Josh Hall (09:14):
So it's uh changed kind of quite a bit well, I love
how the the trickle ofinspiration kind of goes through
not generations but justdifferent people because, yeah,
like you mentioned, west, familyfriend both, both of us.
You know, brother-in-law foryou, family friend for us and,
um, so for those who, well, noone would know this, but when I
played drums in the youth bandback in the day, wes was our

(09:35):
worship leader and I do rememberWes.
I mean, he gave me somepointers so I got to throw him
in as an original mentor as well.
Now that I throw him in as anoriginal mentor as well, now,
that I think about it.

Chris Webb (09:51):
Gosh, it was so long ago, but I do remember hearing
about him doing websites.
I mean, we're talking what like2003 graduated 05.
So I mean, yeah, so I had to be304, yeah, yeah.

Josh Hall (09:58):
So, like well before wordpress even came out,
probably, you know, maybe, maybebefore dreamweaver got to get
wes on next dreamweaver, yeah,baby.
It is cool, though, to thinkabout, like, what wes was doing
and I don't know where he pickedup his chops from, but then
that filtered down to you, whichfiltered down to me, which is
filtering down that you knowthousands of people now.

Chris Webb (10:17):
So, um, that's pretty cool thinking about I
think that's the industry,though I what I do love about it
is that it's a um, it's asharing industry, like I do
think at some point you get kindof competitive and everybody
wants to.
You know they, everyone wantsto make a footprint, they want
to, they want to be the shiningstar.

(10:37):
But, um, yeah, I've been, I'vebeen blessed with people in my
life that have wanted to sharesome of that knowledge with me.
Um, I think Wes got it fromGreg, another guy from the
church, so it's full circle, man.
And here we are talking aboutit and, yeah, it's come a long
way.

Josh Hall (10:55):
What have your different roles been?
Because you started doinggraphic design for the church
right and then you were doingfreelance.
Did you do purely graphicdesign before web or did you get
into web pretty quick?

Chris Webb (11:07):
Yeah, so I started doing graphic design.
So in the beginning at thechurch I did graphic design for
the youth, the kind of the youthministries there.
They didn't really have a needfor the web, but I had already
kind of started going down theweb route, just because it was
what Wes was doing it and that'swhere people were making money.

(11:31):
And so I started doing graphicdesign, picked up web along the
way and then it just kind ofspiraled from there, I guess.
Spiraled from there, I guess,um, I think dreamweaver was next
.
Dreamweaver was kind of likeyou're a half designer.

(11:52):
It was good for designersbecause you could take it and
then develop it just a littlebit.

Josh Hall (11:55):
but really we're just using like their, their version
of, like auto layouts and youjust you're using, uh, you know,
like would they have the, theone by one pixel, uh, spacers
and yeah, I remember slicing itup and then you'd see the css
and it'd be like holy cow thisis what's going on, yeah, and
now you just throw it into umnow, you just throw it into ai

(12:18):
and it just makes itautomatically so so you, you got
into web pretty quick but thenlike, uh, on your in your
corporate life, what were you,what have your roles been in the
in the corporate, and what isyour role now?
I still don't know exactly whatyou do right now, chris.

Chris Webb (12:33):
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, so, um, so all right, so
go back to the beginning.
So, graphic designer moved onfrom there.
Um wasn't making like pennies.
I needed to get a big boy joband I had.

Josh Hall (12:48):
Yeah, cause you got married too back then, right,
weren't you married?

Chris Webb (12:51):
Yeah, yeah, I got married when I was 19.
So there was there was the uh,the adapting to marriage life.
And then, um, after that, gregthe guy that I mentioned before,
the one that had mentored Weshe had actually thrown my name
out to a guy named John, andJohn was like my first intern

(13:11):
boss and he's like hey, I'd loveto have you come on for a
little while, become just a webdesigner because that was all it
was then.
It was just a web designer.
John had me on for about sixmonths and then I finished my
internship, went back to thechurch and then probably say I
joined the military in 2010 andthe guard.

(13:33):
So then, after I got back, Imean almost within a couple of
months, I got a message from agirl named Courtney and she was
like hey, I heard you do webdesign.
There's a new job that's at abig company 31 gifts.
At the time they were stillaround and they were popping off
, and so they were like hey, youwant to go on contract for a

(13:55):
while.
And at the time, like, like, Iwas like making very little
money and so I'm like I'll doanything and she threw out like
an actual like job that you cantake care of your family money
and I was like, yeah, let's go.
So, uh, I went over there, tookthe contracting gig.
I did web design.
I could say I was their firstofficial web designer.
That's not a big name now, butat the time I thought it was

(14:16):
cool, yeah I remember that man.

Josh Hall (14:18):
I remember you gave me a tour of like the facility I
mean I did it wasn't.
It wasn't much of a tour mysocks were rocked off, dude,
because I mean I was like holy,like you were like a legit
designer at a legit I mean yeah,at the time, 31 gifts was huge,
so yeah it was it was amazing.

Chris Webb (14:36):
Yeah, the first it was like an open layout.
All of these, you know,professional designers and
developers.
They were all just hanging outin this big open space.
We all had our own computers.
Um, it was.
It was unreal.
Um, I I really, to this day,I'm so grateful for that job.
If I had not, if I had notstarted there, I would not be

(14:57):
where I'm at today.
So, um so 31, yeah, yeah, hugekudos to them.
They're not around anymore, butthat was cool.
After that, I jumped into the.
I got deployed in 2014.
And then, about a year later,when I got back, an agency had

(15:22):
written and probably I'mguessing some of your listeners
know this or whatever, but theagency was the pinnacle of being
a designer, developer, like, ifyou went and worked, it was
like the.

Josh Hall (15:33):
It was like the professionals, in my opinion of,
like designers or developerswho were really trying to make
it yeah, because there's adifference between working for a
corporate company, like 31gifts, and then being in an
agency where you're contractedto different corporations and
businesses, right?

Chris Webb (15:52):
yeah.
So, yeah, corporate is like youhave one brand you have, and
then you are 100 invested inthat one brand, whereas and you
have one development stack, youhave one.
You know, like the designersare all focused on one.
You know set of designs, youdon't see it, there's no
landscape.

(16:12):
But when you go to an agency,you know, when I took on to this
, this job at this agency, youbasically were like you could be
working on five differentbrands at once, and so you'd
have WordPress or you'd havenetor you'd have, uh, you know, uh,
sometimes it was just like rawHTML code.
Um, it was.

(16:34):
You know, I love those peopleto death and they gave me, uh,
the amazing opportunity to kindof check that box off.
But that had to have been themost stressful time of my life.

Josh Hall (16:46):
I was just gonna ask what did you like more?
Did you like being a lot, so wecould bucket these two roles a
corporate designer or a agencydesigner?
Did you like being more of acorporate designer, more than
the agency route?

Chris Webb (16:59):
I think I like the.
I liked the agency work, butthe timelines were stricter.
You were pleasing so manydifferent clients at once that
it was just not fun.
And here's the other thing tooit's really like this anywhere

(17:21):
and this is kind of like my viewon design nowadays, anyways,
it's not really your design,where and this is kind of like
my view on design nowadays,anyways, it's not really your
design Like, you have an artdirector, you have a creative
director, right?
I basically come up with theinitial design and then they
just redesign it based off myinitial Like.
So, um, if I had to pick, uh, Idon't know, I'm in corporate

(17:47):
world now, so I guess I likedcorporate world more pros and
cons to both.

Josh Hall (17:50):
Right, yeah, I mean I know from what I've seen in the
agency world and just knowing,you know, working with some
agencies and like I did somework with Rev Local and I
subcontracted for them for awhile and I've seen some of the
agency world, I'm like man, Ijust I have, I just don't have
an interest in the agency worldand I know a lot of people

(18:12):
gravitate towards that and Ithink it do.
It does work for for some folksand depending on their
aspirations and and the thestack of officer or office
offers, excuse me and like whatthey're doing, yeah, it can work
really well.
It's like a full stack digitalmarketing agency.
But, man, you said timelinesand stress and I just don't know
anyone who comes out of theagency world and was like, ah,

(18:34):
that was just peaceful and funand freedom.

Chris Webb (18:36):
Let's do this again.
I'll just share my.
I had a, um, I had a, I wasdoing some work for giant Eagle
and so this project was due.
Uh, let's see, I don't rememberwhen I started it, but it was
due in December.
And December came and they youknow, the client had some

(19:01):
feedback and whatnot.
Well, in order for I mean, youknow, for the administrative
business stuff, they needed thisproject to be wrapped up before
January 1st.
So December comes, we deliverthe designs and the you know the
development work and they'relike, oh, oh, we want, you know,
and we need some changes.
Well, everybody's trying totake off like we're all just
trying to get out for theholidays.
Push comes to shove.

(19:23):
It's like like new year's eveand I am still working on this
project, like I I want to say Igot, I'm pretty sure I got it
done before then, but then ofcourse, they had some more
feedback in january, but it waslike now it's, it's not, not
worth your, when you're youngand you have, you know, you
don't have as manyresponsibilities, one thing, but

(19:45):
when you're you got a familyman, that's, that's brutal.
So and it's different.

Josh Hall (19:50):
What's what's the feeling?
Because I've never been acorporate or agency designer
other than some white, somewhite label like subcontract
work.
But that was very differentthan like going there full time
working.
What's the feeling like betweenagency stress and freelance
stress?
You know what I mean Becauselike that can very well happen
as a freelancer, but I feel likethere's something different

(20:11):
when it's your own business andyou control a little more of the
timelines and deliverables.

Chris Webb (20:16):
Potentially yeah, freelance is a lot more
self-managed.
Um, you have to make sure thatyou really do need to put
pressure on yourself to hit allof your timelines.
Um, at least as far as myfreelance go goes, is I like to
lay out a timeline for when theycan expect everything.
If it's a check-in after a week, or if it's a review after a

(20:43):
couple of weeks, or if we saywe're going to launch the
website on this day.
You have to.
It's really easy to, becauseit's just whenever you have time
to work on it.
Well, it is a lot ofresponsibility to make sure that
you, if you want to be asuccessful freelance company, a
brand, and you want people to tospread your name, you have to
hit all of your timelines,whereas if you're in an agency

(21:07):
world, like if you know, if Idon't hit it, it's their brand
that takes the hit.
It's that you know.
So there's a different, there'stwo different kinds of stresses
.
There's the stress of, like,trying to create your own brand,
and then there's the stress ofyou don't want to get fired for
not hitting the timeline.
So so, yeah, they both hitdifferently.

Josh Hall (21:26):
What's?
What's corporate stress?
Is it just like the amount ofpeople that you know you need to
go through to get something outthe door?

Chris Webb (21:39):
I imagine that's what it is.
I would love to know I would.
I actually would love to hearthis question asked to a lot of
people in in the corporate world.
So in 31 gifts the stress wasdifferent, because so they used
to have outlet sales, so allright.
So I'll say this they wouldhave general timelines for
everything.
But whenever it came toseasonal type things, things

(22:00):
that were supposed to bereleased, you know, at the
beginning of a new season, youhad to have sites up at a
certain time of night, like ithad to be when the websites were
down or I'm sorry, not thewebsite when the viewers are the
least.
So it'd be like two or threeo'clock in the morning, and so
you would have to go and release, uh, a website or whatever, and

(22:22):
and back then this was probablylike 2010, ish era.
Like then there wasn't like this, these deployment strategies,
like, if you know, there weren'tall these checks and balances,
so like you could easily screwsomething up at two or three
o'clock in the morning.
Like you go to like, update thenew website, replace the files.
It was like you know your SOL,if you place and the stress is

(22:45):
so much different, like I alwaysdescribe it kind of like
corporate world is like a cruiseship.

(23:06):
You take a lot longer to turnaround if you have changes.
So if you're going down thispath and you're in this cruise
ship and you're like, ah, we'resupposed to go that way, it
takes forever to turn around, soeverything's slower, everything
needs to be checked, everythingneeds to be ran through all the

(23:30):
different checks and balances,whereas smaller corporate places
or agencies, you can move a lotfaster.
So even in the corporate world,there's a totally different
dynamic.

Josh Hall (23:45):
Yeah, that makes sense.
Have you seen office space?
Yeah, I just imagine like Ihave eight bosses, eight bosses.
So anytime I do something wrongI hear about it from eight
different people and all ofthose cliches ring true.
That would drive me bonkers,dude.
That would drive me abs, Ithink, especially being
self-employed and freelance foras long as I have, if I had to

(24:06):
wait on multiple rounds ofpeople, that would lose my mind.
But I guess it's interestingbecause, looking at these
different categories corporate,corporate designers, agency
designers and freelancersthey're they each have their
pros and cons.
Like, as a freelancer, you know, you've, you've done freelance
for how many, how many yearshave you been in freelance?

Chris Webb (24:28):
technically, like, 20 years On my LinkedIn.
It's like 2007 was like my, mystart time, but wow I didn't get
into like legit.

Josh Hall (24:37):
I didn't stop doing ban websites until probably 2010
, so yeah, but I mean you knowalmost 20 years of doing
freelance like there is adifferent.
Like you said, it's a littlemore self-managed stress and,
yes, you may have a lot ofdifferent quote-unquote bosses
with clients but you control alot more of that and you can
ramp up and down with how manyprojects you want to take on, et

(24:57):
cetera.
Agency seems like just from thedesigners I've talked to and I
know the rates on agency churn.
I mean my gosh, designers arein and out and in and out and in
and out, brutal, absolutelybrutal.
And then corporate, I feel like, is just probably just the
bureaucratic stuff.
That is a lot, the the cons anddownfalls that that come along

(25:17):
with that.
But they kind of each havetheir own thing, don't they?
I mean you've done, you've doneall three of those categories.
I feel like somebody may needto just choose.
You know, I mean obviously withthis podcast we're talking
mostly freelancers and in someagency folks or who, folks who
are doing white label work foragencies, like maybe a couple
different agencies.
But all that to say you'renever going to be a designer and

(25:38):
have this perfect, clean path.
That is not going to come withsome stress and downsides.

Chris Webb (25:45):
Yeah, you got to accept it regardless.
I think I will say this andthis is in terms of corporate is
you have to want to be better.
It's very easy to go tocorporate places and, for lack
of a better term, die Like.
A lot of people will go tothese companies and they will

(26:06):
ride it out into the sunset andnever learn a new thing ever
again.
You know, especially really bigcompanies that can't change as
fast.
A uh, as fast, um.
A lot of people, just like I,just I just want a paycheck.
But I do think that it is kindof a it's a blessing and a curse
, because in this industryyou'll always have a job if you

(26:28):
want to keep learning.
But if you, if you get leftbehind because you're just not
interested in it anymore, Ithink it's more difficult for
you in the future because it'sso easy.
There's just so much that canhappen in just a year.
So I don't know, you have tokind of decide.

(26:52):
I so, personally, I guess I'mnot here to to to uh, sail off
into the sunset, but it isslower.
And I think if I could give anytips to anybody that's in the
industry that's working in.
Corporate is freelance is yourway to stay edgy, to stay with
the program.
Um, so yeah, that's, that's mythought on that that's well said

(27:15):
, dude.

Josh Hall (27:16):
What a segment right there.
What a clip that is very wellsaid.
I mean, I feel like it'sprobably just complacency that
corporate leads to, because,like you said, you do kind of
get comfortable environmentalmost encourages that from the

(27:37):
outside looking in because if itdoes take eight people to get
through and then get a revisionback in two weeks, it's like why
.
I would feel like like why rush?
Like why rush this thing ifit's going to take this long?
I definitely could see how thatall feeds into each other.
Um, so a gold nugget of adviceto utilize freelance to help you
like, help you boost up inother areas, both creativity and

(28:00):
you're staying on the leadingedge of stuff.
I mean, our last chat in person, you were sharing some of the
AI stuff you're up to and I waslike how, what I imagine that's
coming out of your freelanceendeavors right Rather than like
is Nationwide.
You to like go further incertain areas.
Are you doing this on your ownand then bringing it to the
corporate world?

Chris Webb (28:20):
yeah, it's crazy.
So ai, oh man, ai is.
So everybody, every corporateworld, um, every corporate
company, they're all chasing tobe at the leading edge of AI,
and so it's a little bit of acontradiction to what I was

(28:41):
saying, because the rest of alot of development, a lot of
design, a lot of that stuff iskind of slow, but they are.
They are dedicating tons ofmoney, millions of dollars.

Josh Hall (28:52):
But is that just because of AI Do that wasn't the
case over the past 10, 15 years.
But with AI, have you seen ashift in the corporate landscape
where suddenly they're like, ohshoot, not only do we need to
catch up, but we need to try toget ahead.

Chris Webb (29:07):
Yeah, yeah, the last couple of years.
I mean it's to the point nowwhere, so, copilot is GitHub's
tool, I guess, and so they'veinstalled it, they've allowed us
to install it on our IDEs, onlike VS Code, like our
development software, and theyencourage it Like it's to the

(29:28):
point where it's your almostlike your bosses are following
up with you.
They're like, hey, how like arefollowing up with you.
They're like, hey, how like areyou, you know what's working
for you?
Um, so, personally, I'mactually on a project right now,
uh, learning something about,uh, builderio.
Um, and it is a ai softwarethat can take designs and and

(29:53):
basically turn them into verysemantic, well thought out code.
And my boss is trying to checkoff this AI research piece for
his own job and he's like, hey,I need you to do this and I need
to know all about this softwareBasically, because there's this

(30:15):
fear that if we're not pursuingAI, then the nationwide is
going to look like they'rebehind.
So so, yeah, it's.
I mean, yeah, the last coupleyears, basically, when it went
public.
I mean, for sure, it existedbefore, we all had our hands on
it, but once it went public andeverybody had their hands on it,
dude.

(30:36):
I mean the amount of work andthe amount of output that you
can get out right now is unreal.
So what?

Josh Hall (30:43):
what is your title?
Are you a web designer on youknow in your job description or
a developer what?

Chris Webb (30:49):
man, um, so technically.
So I got hired on as a creativetechnologist and that was like
a fancy way of saying designer,developer, um, but now I'm a ui
engineer, so that's the that's Imean.
When you throw engineer ontoany title, it makes you feel a
little bit you know a little,you know a little fancier, but

(31:12):
yeah where's the pipe with somesmoke or something?

Josh Hall (31:16):
Yeah, wow, yeah.

Chris Webb (31:17):
Yeah, I walk into meetings with my my chest out.
No, I'm just kidding, but yeah.
So UI engineer is technicallythe role that I'm in now and
it's basically the same thing.
I feel like I mean they've hadwhat a million different names.
Like there was a time wherepeople were calling themselves
like web ninjas.
I mean like you could, like youwere.
Like there was a time wherepeople were calling themselves

(31:39):
like web ninjas.
I mean like you could, like youwere like you could call it
anything you want.

Josh Hall (31:42):
So, uh, yeah, um, shit, I forgot my question.
It was a good one too.
I derailed myself, damn it.
Um, let's see.
Oh, that's fascinating, thoughJust I do feel like there's
probably a corporate shift andall that stuff.
So you are what with, with thework you're doing right now,
chris, are you overseeing, liketeam members in your, in your

(32:04):
like, how's that work with thechain of command for you?

Chris Webb (32:08):
Yeah, so I'm on a really small team.
Um, there's not a lot ofhierarchy in our team.
Um, we have um designers anddevelopers on this team and I'm
actually more on the developerside of this.
Uh, yeah, team um, so then wehave, basically we have our and

(32:30):
it's weird, I'll just say thistoo like at this company, it's
very weird.
You can be in, you can be asenior level something at
agencies, other corporate places, but when you get into really
big companies, they have theirown like level.
It's like the military.
They have their own level ofranking structure and so you

(32:50):
have like consultants, seniorconsultants, those kinds of
things, and it feels like you'rejust working with.
Well, I guess.
I guess, to get more on trackwith what I was saying is you
have like a director and thatdirector is essentially the
maestro and they're just kind oflike hey, here's what we need
done, and then can you, can youmake it happen?

(33:13):
So so, yeah, so we kind of kindof, we're kind of a um, oh, I
don't know self-managing type.
We all kind of we all pipe in.

Josh Hall (33:24):
there is no real hierarchy on this team gotcha,
is your tool stack different forfreelance versus corporate?
I think that was the question Iwas thinking about a little bit
ago.
You've been using divi foryears, um, yeah, yeah and I know
you've been using, you know you.
Obviously you can custom codeum, but yeah, what's like your
freelance tool stack and thenwhat's your corporate tool stack

(33:46):
it's a good question.

Chris Webb (33:47):
Let's see, I actually have um, so I always
run.
So I use chrome, so chrome ismy browser of choice.
Uh, firefox has kind of beenlike all, but like I don't know,
we can't even use firefox atwork anymore.
So, um, and then I use vs codeforward to my development.

(34:08):
Uh, github co-pilot I I have asubscription to that.
Um, I will say this everybodyand this is my personal opinion
everybody's using AI.
It's crazy, I want to say.
People in the industry pretendlike they're not using it and
then they're delivering thisamazing code.
Everybody's using it.

(34:28):
So, if anyone's wondering, so Irun Photoshop, illustrator,
figma, and then I always have myterminal running.
So my terminal is what I'musing to basically run all my
little micro commands and thingslike that.
So that's my stack at home.
And then, of course, I'm stilldoing freelance.

(34:50):
So then I'm running MAMP to.
I'm not sure if that's whatyou're using or not.
I use MAMP to manage all of mywordpress sites.
Um, mamp pro is amazing.
So essentially, when I build awordpress website, um which has
been mostly with debbie lately,most so all of those websites I

(35:12):
can build locally on my machineand then when I'm finished, I
can take that and I can deployit to the server or the, you
know wherever the final landingdestination is.

Josh Hall (35:25):
So okay, so it's similar because I use local um.
Local w gosh.
It's been a while since Iopened it.
Yeah, local wpcom is what I use.
I wonder if it's kind of whilesince I opened it.
Yeah, localwpcom is what I use.
I wonder if it's kind ofsimilar to where you can build
locally and then you have anoption to deploy it from there.

Chris Webb (35:44):
Yeah, probably this is what the agency used to use
and I got used to it and so nowI'm just like I'll probably die
with it.
You remember Mr Lundquist andhe it's funny we're at this
point, I'm at this point in mycareer.
I remember he used a softwarecalled Fireworks.
So Fireworks was likevector-based design before

(36:06):
Illustrator wasn't even a thing,like before Photoshop was a
thing.
Everybody designed websiteswith it.
And I remember going to hisclass and we're all you know,
we're, we're the leading edge,and we're like we're using
Photoshop.
And he's like, well, I useFireworks, that's, it's what
works for me.
And I'm like, ah, like you're,you're so behind.

Josh Hall (36:26):
It's the typical old guy Won't get, won't stop using
his.

Chris Webb (36:30):
So now I'm like on the software that worked for me
like eight years ago.
I'm like like I still, if I, Istill want to use Photoshop for
everything.
If I can lay out websites inPhotoshop, I would.

Josh Hall (36:40):
Well, this is a good point, man Cause, like I see
this a lot now because I've beenin this industry for a while 16
years this year and I'm workingwith a lot of people who have
been in the industry for 10, 15,20 years, and this is a really
common issue, especially forfolks who are running their own
business and their own agencies.

(37:00):
They don't want to just droptheir tool stack and have to
relearn everything and hope itworks out Like this is.
This is why, interestinglyenough, like with us using Divi,
I know that Divi has taken alot of heat over the past few
years, understandably so, withit just being an outdated
platform, because it wasrevolutionary in 2013 and 14,
but it's dated now, well, untilDivi five.

(37:22):
But the problem is like ifsomebody has got a hundred
client sites using Divi, they'renot going to want to just jump
ship right away and learn awhole new platform and migrate
everything.
That is a massively costly move.
So I think this is reallycommon with with folks who are
who've been in it for a while isyou get kind of not stuck with

(37:42):
your tool stack butunderstandably, like set with
your tool stack and man, wouldit take a lot to change those
things.

Chris Webb (37:51):
But you know what, though, my my mentality has
changed on that.
I will be the first to admitthat I was that young student
who was like that looks at youknow that would look at some of
the more senior folk that wouldbe using these old, outdated
softwares.
But, um, but now that I'm thatguy, I'm the old guy, like, what

(38:11):
I've realized is it has nothingto do with the tool.
It doesn't matter what tool youuse.
Like it's the output, it's areyou, are you um, are you
delivering what they want?
It doesn't matter how it camethrough phot, photoshop or
Sketch or Figma or you know, orwhatever the case is, if it's
Divi, or if it's you know what'sthe new WordPress builder, like

(38:34):
it doesn't matter.
It's the end result, is it doingwhat they expected it to do?
And then can they learn it.
But I will like say I mean Iknow you've had a lot of.
You have a ton of experiencewith divi, but the new, like ai
builder is kick ass.
Like it is inside divi.
Oh my gosh.
Yeah, I, um, I was messing withit the other week and I mean a

(39:01):
simple prompt.
I mean there's no better timeto be a web developer like, or a
web design like, literally likethe power of if you are good at
marketing, if you are good atcommunicating, if you are, if
you love talking to clients,like that's what's going to set
you apart now, like how good youdesign or how well you develop,
or whatever, like a lot ofthat's being taken over by AI,

(39:24):
like there's no reason forpeople to not be able to excel
in a business of some sort.
So I mean that's at least in mypersonal opinion.
And the Divi, the Divi piece, Imean I think I I just wrote a
prompt and I was just likehere's a website.
I really like it's.

(39:46):
I don't like the design, but Ilove the content.
Can you help me build somethingthat is similar?
I mean it had a homepage likestood up in like 35 seconds and
then you know all of the toolsare there.
So you can, you can tweak it tohowever you want.

Josh Hall (40:10):
When in your mind, chris, because I appreciate that
challenge of like not gettingtoo comfortable, like with the,
with the story of Lundquist, ourold CSS teacher.
My question to you is like whendo you change?
Do you have like, have you everthought about the metrics that
you acknowledge when you want tochange a tool, when you realize
like, oh my God, I got to go toPhotoshop.
What was it front or what wasLundquist's old?

Chris Webb (40:28):
tool oh, fireworks.

Josh Hall (40:29):
Fireworks, yeah, like .
The question is like, with thatidea of moving from fireworks
to Photoshop, when, what are the?
Uh, what are the red flags orthe signals?
That's like, oh my gosh, I needto change tools, I need time to
move.

Chris Webb (40:42):
Um, it's a good question.
I always seem to know, but Inever know how.

Josh Hall (40:46):
Is it gut feeling?

Chris Webb (40:57):
It's a gut feeling, but really like it's um, I've
found that whenever I've gone tonew jobs, they'll have a stack.
And let me back up Agencies aregreat Like agencies are
probably.
If you know people in agenciesand I actually stay in contact
with all these people that Iused to work with they we have
like a discord Slack channelwhere we're all kind of talking
about what we're doing.
I would say the best thing todo is network with other people

(41:21):
that are doing your job and talkabout it and you'll know.
If you're I mean if you're inthe industry and you're reading
up on websites or if you'relistening to podcasts, I mean
you're, you're going to hear, um, you're going to hear kind of
what's upcoming.
So, um, that's not a good, agood, uh, empirical evidence

(41:44):
about that, but um, I do, I dothink that if you just kind of
keep your ear to the ground, youwill, you will know.

Josh Hall (41:50):
So yeah, no, I agree with that and, of course, you
know, with my community pro it's.
That's one of the biggest, uh,hidden features of it is folks
are staying up to date on stuffwith all sorts of platforms and
because it is agnostic, we ofcourse have a lot of folks using
Divi and WordPress in there,but we do have a lot of folks
who are using Squarespace andother platforms, other CRMs and

(42:13):
client management stuff.
So, I agree, I think that cankind of help because you could
probably get a sense of likewhat's popping and then like,
okay, maybe I should take timeto look into this.

Chris Webb (42:25):
Well, and that is that is kind of the.
I mean we meet up for coffee,what every few months or
something, and a lot of timesit's just like through organic
conversation.
You know you'll be like oh,I've heard about Figma.
Oh, you've heard about Figma,you guys are using Figma.
I think I even asked you thatwhen Figma really started taking
off, Like, are you guys using?

(42:45):
You know anything about Figma?
And I don't know if you did atthe time, but we were coming
from Sketch and the moreconversation you have with
people, the more it's going tosurface up like what their stack
is.
And then you hear Sketch, or youhear Figma and Figma, Figma.
You're like, oh well, a lot ofpeople are using Figma.
In fact, a good example wasAdobe XD was going to be the

(43:09):
competitor to Figma and therewas a time where Sketch, Adobe
XD and Figma were the threeleading layout tools and we were
all like, well, what's it goingto be?
Well, just through the naturalconversation, you just kind of
found out, well, figma's takenoff and so now it's kind of the

(43:29):
standard and I think they justhave they just released a, you
know, an ipo recently.
So I mean, they're, they'retaken off what's your ai stack
right now?
um, honestly, I, um honestly, Ichat GBT co-pilot.
Um, I use it for almosteverything.
It's I mean literally justconsulting it with code.

(43:53):
Um, you know, getting someclarity on you know a direction
that I want to go.
Um, yeah, in fact, I pay for it, I think.
I think the paid version isvery uh, you can pay.
I think it's like $20 a monthor something.

Josh Hall (44:09):
Yeah, I'm on it too.
The pro version, yeah, but whatI love about it.
So worth it, yeah, yeah.

Chris Webb (44:15):
What I love about it is that it keeps context over
your entire, all of your prompts, all of your chat history.

Josh Hall (44:24):
It keeps context for everything, all of your prompts,
all of your chat history.
It keeps context for everything.
By the way, this episode issponsored by OpenAI and ChatGPT.

Chris Webb (44:32):
Get your free trial today Throwing out names.

Josh Hall (44:34):
Not sponsoring them, but we're both paid users, so
yeah.
I was just kind of curious.
I wasn't sure just with howleading edge you are and this
stuff.
I wasn't sure if you had like20 AI tools you're using, but so
chat and co-pilot.
Those are the big two.

Chris Webb (44:49):
Those are, those are really it.
I mean there's a, there'sGemini out there.
You said, claude, there's, uh,there's so many.
But the thing is is like, ifyou, you know what's, what's the
old saying?
Um, if if you chase too manyrabbits catch none, um, that's
in this industry, you reallykind of have to double down on
something.
And so for me it's just chatgbt, I think, or open, I guess

(45:12):
you know, open ai, like they,they um, they really cover all
the bases.
Um, so anything that chat gbtis doing, gemini is doing, all
of those other other companiesare doing.

Josh Hall (45:27):
So dude, I'm I'm using it like it's funny I'm re.
I'm just at the, the startingpoint of revamping nearly all of
my courses.
I'm going to start chippingaway at them and I'm working on
my first, my first revamp, whichis my DNS course, and I'm going
through each lesson, like howdid I do courses without chat,

(45:49):
gpt, especially with technicalkind of stuff?
Because I'm like when I'mdiving into EPP codes, I know
that deals with a websiteownership, but what's actually
going on behind that?
So I'm including all that stuffin my new version of the course
and it's so much better becauseit just takes so much R&D and
just gets right to the chase and, of course, you need to fact

(46:10):
check some stuff, but with stufflike that, it's pretty spot on.
So, yeah, anyway, I was likehow in the heck did I do these
courses without the help of anAI assistant, like that?

Chris Webb (46:20):
Yeah, I honestly, man, I want to be the kind of
stick in the mud.
I honestly, man, I want to bethe kind of stick in the mud.
There's a part of me that'slike I don't want to embrace it,
just because I'm just I don'tknow.
There's something like very Iwas telling a coworker about the
other day.
I love the art of coming upwith something from start to

(46:45):
finish, but that's kind of likemy ego.
Like my ego is, I want to saythat I had control from start to
finish and that whatever comesout on the other side was
because of me.
Um, but you're, if you reallywant, the most quality product.
It's not.
It's not like AI is somemagical software or some magical

(47:06):
code that's out there, likeit's scraping the internet.
Like it is scraping theinternet for the best possible
results based on um, you know,based on the quality of of the
websites that it's getting itfrom Um.
And so there's a part of methat just thinks like, if it
knows better than I do, then whynot at least consult it?

(47:29):
There are some things I try todo, you know, like for or for,
or at least if you're going tolay something out, I mean
sometimes the hardest part abouta podcast or building a new
website or doing is just gettingstarted.
Getting started and so justlaying it out with chat, gbt, uh
, or whatever your, you knowyour choices um kind of gets you

(47:50):
over that like mental block ofwhere do I get started?

Josh Hall (47:53):
Well, and a good example, because I'm so knee
deep in this currently, like mybig project at the time of
recording this with you, Chris,is this DNS course I'm revamping
and it has been eyeopeningbecause I feel the same way as
you do, in that there's a senseof pride that gets hit when you
have help with this kind ofstuff, whereas before I'm like
that version of the course wasall me 100%.

(48:16):
I typed every single word.
I did my own research and stuff.
But I'm getting a lot more helpnow with ChatGPT in particular.
But here's what I'm not doing.
I'm not relying on it to createa course for me.
What I'm doing is I create theinitial outline that makes sense
to me and the lessons that Ineeded to know 16 years ago when

(48:36):
I got into web design, and thenI take it into ChatGPT to fill
in the gaps or to help me expandon certain things that I'm
Again, like EPP codes didn'tknow too much about it, the
different type of DNS zoneeditors and stuff, or the
records that are in there likeah yeah, I forgot I should add
this, so that's where it'shelping me tremendously is like
to just fill in, but the core ofthe start to finish is still me

(48:59):
like it's my journey, and onething I'm really being
intentional about with how I'musing AI with this stuff is in
this course in particular, I'mstarting off the course with DNS
horror stories, which arestories that have reduced my
hairline and that's how we'regoing to kick it off.

(49:19):
Just to show ChatGPT could comeup with some scenarios, but
these are going to be actualthings that happened to me in my
freelance web design businessbecause I didn't understand some
dns stuff.
So, um, I'm kind of like tryingto stay as personal and genuine
and authentic with the help ofai, filling in the gaps and

(49:39):
expanding on things where needed.
So that's kind of my, that'skind of how I'm using it
especially.

Chris Webb (49:44):
Yeah, I think there's a fear, and I think the
fear of AI is that people don'tunderstand it yet, and I think
that they're trying to figureout.
Where do you know?
Where do you fit in in an AIworld?
I think the most importantthing to remember is that AI is
only most powerful in, in your,in a subject matter, as expert

(50:07):
hands.
Um, in fact, we were justtalking about this is you could
have, you could have a.
You have to develop.
You know you have twodevelopers.
You have a seasoned developerand then you have somebody
straight out of college.
Uh, they have no experience.
The the thing about those two isthat if you give them the same
goal and they're both going touse AI, if you give them the

(50:31):
same goal, the seasoneddeveloper is going to get a more
quality output because theyknow what they're looking for.
They're saying like this iswhat I want, here is how I want
to get it, whereas maybe like ajunior or somebody who's just
out of college is kind of likethey don't even know, like they
don't know what they're lookingfor.
Um, and they both will looklike.

(50:53):
If it's a homepage, they'llboth look like a homepage, um,
but but the one with theexperience behind it, I think
it's going to have the mostlongevity.
It's going to have the bestbest to have the most longevity.
It's going to have the bestbest uh output.

Josh Hall (51:05):
So experienced prompts, that's experience.
That's where the gold is yeah.

Chris Webb (51:12):
So yeah, it's uh, and and you have to use it.
I think you have to forceyourself to use it, um, if you
want to get better at it and toremove the fear.

Josh Hall (51:20):
So yeah yeah, that's great man.
Well, I wanted to give a fewminutes for you, chris.
I feel like we got cut off onour last coffee meeting.
It went so dang fast but youhad some great questions about
the event and everything.
So I wanted to hear how you'vekind of gone through agency
designer life, corporatedesigner life, and freelance has

(51:49):
always been a you know,refrigerator hum that has stuck
with you for a long time.
So I appreciate you, you know,sharing all that and being open
with what you're doing with yourtool stack and ai.
But yeah, I mean I wanted togive you a few minutes if there
was anything you wanted to askme.

Chris Webb (52:02):
I feel like, yeah, I , I mean, firstly, man, I really
appreciate you invite me on.
Be to be honest, this is likethe first time I've are really
like ever, are like articulatedmy career so um, there are times
where I feel like my mind isjumping all over the place and
I'm like I want to say this butmaybe for later, you know so did
you know my web designcom withthe two b's?

Josh Hall (52:22):
is that available?
Did we find that out?

Chris Webb (52:24):
no, I didn't.
Um, I know that it's not cheapand so I uh, yeah, with my last
name being web, I probably, Iprobably should have jumped on
that ship a long time ago.

Josh Hall (52:35):
I mean, that's just like the perfect branding by
golly it might be worth it.
Chris might be worth it If weever do something together.
We'll see about how much thatcosts.

Chris Webb (52:44):
Yeah Well, so like, yeah, so we were, we were
talking downtown, here's what,here's what I'm really amazed
about what you've, what you'vedone, and um, here I'm going to
kind of gloat for you a littlebit, but, um, I don't think
there's really a good way tocapture like not everybody puts

(53:05):
together a successful one.
I mean, you ran your ownbusiness before, um, before this
podcast even took off, and so I, like one, I'm amazed by that.
Um, then you went and you ran,you did the podcast thing, uh,
you did the courses and whatnot,but then you went and like
doubled down and came up with aconference which I just think is

(53:28):
, I feel like as like kind of anextrovert, a little bit more of
an expert extrovert.
I'd like to imagine that Icould tackle just about anything
, but that to me soundsoverwhelming.
Um, I'm dude, I'm just curiouslike what was?
Was there any fear in likedeciding that you were going to

(53:48):
do the conference?

Josh Hall (53:50):
I mean, it was definitely the thing that kept
me from doing it was the feelingof overwhelm, just knowing how
much work it was going to be,and it wasn't.
Like you know, it wasn't aridiculous amount of work, but
it was a lot of work, especiallybeing the first event.
So that was the only thing thatheld me back.
Amount of work but it was a lotof work, especially being the
first event.
So that was the only thing thatheld me back.
It wasn't a fear of it notturning out well, but it was a

(54:10):
like if I'm going to host anevent, I also know myself and I
can't do anything half-ass, forbetter or for worse, so I'm
going to go all out.
It's going to consume me forprobably a few months.
So I had thought about doing anevent.
I mean, technically, when Icreated Web Designer Pro back

(54:30):
when it was the Web Design Clubback in 2020, I thought about
doing some sort of an event.
So the seed was planted longago.
But then we finally got to thepoint with the community where
it was stable enoughrevenue-wise to where I'm like
okay, I have a little bit offreedom and leeway to like spend
some time elsewhere because youknow I didn't need to hustle to

(54:51):
get the revenue to a certainplace.
I really had to double down toget pro to, to be able to stable
place to support me and myfamily and, you know, have a
good trajectory there.
And then it was like, okay, Ifeel like it's time I can do the
event.
But it was the overwhelmingnature of like, oh my gosh, are
we talking a 500-person event?
Make it semi-public or justprivate?

(55:11):
Are three people going to showup?
Where are we going to do it?
All these questions came intoplay.
But it worked out freakingawesome.

Chris Webb (55:21):
Yeah, I follow it from you know, I'd seen it on
socials and I kind of seen, youknow, just I don't know it was.
Just it was bizarre because itwas like that's just a big thing
, like to set up a conferenceand then to have the confidence
in yourself enough to know thatlike I'm going to invite people
from all over the world and thenthey're going to come and hang
out with me, and then I would belike well, am I even that cool

(55:43):
to hang out with?
Like you know, like it's onething to be here on a podcast
and you can cut it up and youcan, you know, you can edit it
or whatever, but then forsomebody to be actually there in
your presence and they get toexperience all your you know,
like quirks and whatnot, likethere's a little bit of like a I
would have maybe like a minoranxiety trip I would have maybe

(56:05):
like a minor anxiety trip for abit.

Josh Hall (56:07):
I will say it.
I think it helped because withpro, it's a smaller community.
We have, like you know, justover 300 members total, which is
a small community relative to alot of Facebook groups and and
other communities.
So there's beauty in that,though, because, especially with
the coaching aspect, I know somany members and I've tracked

(56:27):
them for a while and they'vebeen with me for many years in
some cases, so it would bedifferent.
Here's what I'll say it would bedifferent doing like a big
public event where I don't knowpeople very well, but even the
members who came who I didn'tknow super well, we got to know
each other really quick, andthere was such such a sense of
bringing people together who weall have seen each other in

(56:50):
different aspects inside of WebDesigner Pro.
So I think that was the key,honestly, was the fact that we
were a close community alreadyonline and then we became a
closer community in person.
So that helped for sure.
That was a big, big timeconfidence booster.
If I were to host like a randomweb design event and then you

(57:12):
know a ton of people are goingto come who I don't know the,
the feeling would be different.
I would definitely feel like,okay, I'm going to need to, like
you know make this are there?

Chris Webb (57:21):
are there things that you would have done
differently?
Like, do you look back and belike damn like I didn't like I I
would have done differently.
Like, do you look back and belike damn like I didn't like I
would have changed that.

Josh Hall (57:28):
No, I literally wouldn't change a thing and I
think I think the, the, the um,it sounds douchey, sounds
boastful, but I really trulywould not change a thing.
I think the amount of peoplewas perfect.
We had just under 40 WebCenterPro members come.
The space was perfect at the ACHotel downtown it was just

(57:49):
killer.
The events were perfect theClippers game, our dinner at
Boogie to Peppa was awesome, thesocials we did, the nightlight
stuff we did.
It was truly the perfectweekend.
But there was a few things thatcontributed to that.
One was I had been thinkingabout it for a long time and my
thought was it helps that we didit in columbus because I, you

(58:11):
know, we know the city well.
So, like I know, with a groupof once we found out how big it
was going to be.
I had two different spaces asoptions.
One was like for under 24people, one was for over 24 to
50 to 60 people.
So either way, like if onlyeight people bought tickets, we
would have been like, okay, wecan do the lower space and try

(58:31):
to, you know, get 20 folks.
So I had like some plan Bpreparedness ready to go in that
case.
But once we figured out how bigit was going to be.
Then it was just a matter oflike okay, what can we do with
40 people?
You can't go to a coffee shopwith 40 people unless you rent
it out.
Um, you know, you can meetsmaller, smaller meetups in like

(58:53):
different bars and restaurantsand stuff, but then, like as a
group you know, the baseballgame was perfect, clippers game,
what we rented a suite out, itwas perfect for that size.
Buca di pepo, the italianrestaurant, can hold, you know,
50, 60 people.
So it was like, where are wegonna go to eat with 40 people?

Chris Webb (59:08):
like there we go.
Oh dude, yeah, so it was all inwalking distance.

Josh Hall (59:12):
so I mean, it was honestly a big thanks to just
columbus being just such a greatcity and being very walkable
and not too big, not too small.
So that was huge.
But yeah, so all those things,like it was those types of
things that were the most work,because I needed to do the work
of, like you know, organizingall of it and then, um, just the

(59:32):
admin kind of stuff.
But I had some help.
We had a member in pro Austinwho was a huge help for a lot of
that stuff.
Um, bounce a lot of ideas offof him to think through some of
that.
And then, um, yeah, it cametogether.
Man, it came together quick.
I really wouldn't change athing and we're going to run it
back, we're doing it again.

Chris Webb (59:48):
I was going to ask him like are you going to?
You're going to do it again.

Josh Hall (59:56):
So yeah, we just need to limit it.
That people for sure, butthat's going to be the hard cap
on 26 and then we'll see youcould run out nationwide arena
well, some people say that, butthat's a whole like and honestly
it's a whole different deal.
like I think in the future if anevent grew past 50 to 100
people would be a separate thingand I would even be open to

(01:00:18):
doing like a big web designevent that would be presented by
a web designer pro.
But then you know, thecommunity event is going to be
smaller and for the coachingtier of of members, at least
first dibs, so yeah, yeah, yeah,that's awesome, it was a good,
it was a crowd.
I'm still on a high from itmonths later.

Chris Webb (01:00:36):
I know I do have one more question I am.
So when you decided to do theconference like, was is the goal
of a conference?
To build?
To build a in-personrelationship with your members,
like, like, what.
What's the what is the biggestgain out of doing a conference?

Josh Hall (01:00:57):
that one for sure it Truly.
It's a retention type strategy.
It is to strengthen thecommunity, because when you meet
people online it's great, butthen when you meet somebody in
person, it's just a wholedifferent level.
This is why I'm such a bigproponent of web designers
getting in person and meetingclients, because you just sell
better, you make betterrelationships.

(01:01:17):
Especially in the age of AI andonline anonymity, it's more
important.
So that was the biggest goal wasto just strengthen the
community and get us together inperson.
There's different types ofgoals from what I've seen with
conferences.
Some of it is revenue, some ofit is to upsell, something like
higher end.
I know a lot of influencers andcommunities will do like an

(01:01:42):
in-person event and then theysell a mastermind or like a high
tier ticket product.
That was not the case for this.
Um, I'm not opposed to thosetype of things.
It would be a great additionaloption if I, if I, do some stuff
like that.
But this was purely like let'sget in person, strengthen the
community, bring us together.
I definitely didn't want tolose money.
So, like we were, we were, wewere, we were plus five grand.

(01:02:04):
Yeah, we were plus five grandthanks to our sponsors, so like
that was great.
Obviously, you know, I didn'ttechnically make that much with
the amount of money or amount ofhours I spent on it, but it is
going to pay off dividends yearsand years and years ahead.
So, yeah, that was the big goal, for that one was like let's
get us in person, strengthen thecommunity, um, and create these

(01:02:27):
friendships.
And like a lot of people, uh,actually this week, at the time
of us, we'll have to send youthis episode at the time of us
talking about this um AT, who'sa member of pro.
He has a podcast episode we didtogether on AI that I'll send
to you.

It's really good, I was just listening to that
before.
Okay, cool, my podcast chops on.

Josh Hall (01:02:46):
I didn't know he knew anything about AI until we met
up and he was just casuallytalking about it, like you
talked about.
You just casually start talkingto designers.
You hear about their tool stack, you hear about what they're
doing.
That was that case.
You know 40 times over, so youknow.
Meeting him and hearing aboutthat, I was like dude, I didn't
even know you were doing this orhow far along you are in AI.
So that was the kind of hiddenbeautiful thing about an

(01:03:09):
in-person event is it's notsomething that's marketable in
the sense of like if you go tothis event, you'll have amazing
conversations and you'll learnthis, like it's just probably
going to happen.
Now we did a workshop.
I intentionally made it aworkshop day.
That is like you're going toget some training, you're going
to get some sort of like.
For sure, even if you don'tmake any friends, you're going

(01:03:30):
to leave with, you know, makingit worth your time with these
presentations.
But it was the community aspectthat really was the.
I mean it was all incredible,but yeah, it was.
It was the surprises.
That's what.

I'm looking for it was the surprises that were the
best part of the weekend.
I think, yeah, well, I will sayas a, as a, as a longtime
friend, uh, I think I think alot of your success has come
from building genuinerelationships.
Uh, I, I think that you know it, whether it's it was starting
in web designer pro or if it was, you know, and back in the in
transit, I think it was intransit.
Yeah, uh, all of yourrelationships were genuine and

(01:04:09):
strong.
And so you know, I think that'sum, I, I think it's only par
for the course that you wouldhave a conference where you go,
and you guys's pictures lookedawesome.
You guys were like get the bluejackets game, or I don't, I
don't want this blue gadget, butyou were like you know, yeah
and um, you know, I think that'sit's.
It's.
It's only natural that that'sthe direction you ended up going

(01:04:31):
to Well.

Josh Hall (01:04:31):
I appreciate that man .
Yeah, I mean that is kind of,um, that's definitely a core,
like principle that's carried onwith me.
I mean honestly going back tolike high school.
I remember like I remembergetting like quite a few
different groups of friends likeconnected together.
I've always enjoyed being aconnector and like having, yeah,
genuine relationships.
Looking back, I've had zerotolerance or interest in like

(01:04:55):
fake, false, doucheyrelationships.
That just doesn't interest meat all.
Even I think a lot of people dothat if it's like.
I mean going back to likeschool dynamics, it's like you
find the top dog and you try tobe friends with them so you look
cool, I just don't.
I've never cared about any ofthat.
Like I'd rather hang out withyou know, art class, chris, and
let's hang out and then do lifetogether like that's so much

(01:05:17):
more interest to me than, uh,yeah, like the the vanity metric
kind of yeah, you did a prettygood job.

Though you were you, you dabbled very well in a lot
of different groups.
So, um, you know you, you'vealways lived by your own code
and I thought that was alwayscool.

Josh Hall (01:05:34):
So that's, uh, that's , that's pretty, pretty sweet so
it is interesting how thingsback in those years translate
and make total sense now,because that was not something
intentional back then to have abunch of different groups of
friends and then have a fairlydabble nature of connecting
people.
But it literally worked perfect.

(01:05:56):
When I went to the band lifebecause it was very similar you
had a bunch of different peopleand different bands and
different promoters andmarketers and it was networking.
It was just networking in themusic world.
And then that transitioned tothe first iteration of doing
freelance and then growing myclient base and then getting
into web design.
And then, once I got intoteaching online, I met Elegant

(01:06:19):
Themes and then there was apodcast called Divi Chat and I
reached out to them and I waslike, hey, I'm a Divi designer,
I'd love to connect with youguys and potentially be on.
That spawned a ton of differentrelationships and then, yeah,
it's kind of followed that sameplaybook.
Basically there's not anintentional playbook or thing I
follow, but it's just kind ofnatural for me.
I think that's something Ilearned was to be self-aware

(01:06:46):
about just like how I operate,and yeah, that's kind of how I
do it.
I do have to catch myself,though, because I can tend to
dabble in a bunch of differentrelationships.
Well, that sounds terrible.

Uh, not, not on a marriage front but a friendship
front Very low on a marriagefront Right.

Josh Hall (01:07:00):
Uh, but like, I do tend to, like, you know, like be
really interested in a groupfor a while and then if I get
disinterested or whatever, Ihave to like like move on.
But it's interesting.
Like you, I really only havelike a few close friends you,
you, you in there for sure, like, but a lot of that has to do
with the fact that you and Iwe're on the exact same path,
but we share a lot of similarinterests and, honestly, like, a
lot of that has to do with thefact that you and I we're on the

(01:07:21):
exact same path, but we share alot of similar interests and,
honestly, like a lot of myfriends from high school, we
just I don't even know what wewould talk about today.
Like, I just don't care aboutBuckeye football that much.
The weather's fine, whatever.
I just I don't know I would getbored quite quickly.
So when you and I get to meetup and and that was that was the

(01:07:49):
cool thing about the the eventwas like small talk stuff just
kills me, it just drains thelife out of me if I'm not
interested in it.
So to have like non-stopconversations about
entrepreneurship, it was like a,it was like a hangout with you
for four days straight and itwas awesome.
So we.

We can make that happen.
We'll have our own conference.
We'll just do it.

Josh Hall (01:08:02):
The web, the web and hall, the web and hall web
design conference yeah, I loveit man yeah, I do.
I appreciate that, though, man.
I mean as I, and I think it'simportant for a lot of people to
know, like, yeah, how do youoperate?
Like what lights you up?
So I recognize that a lot ofpeople are not like me and I
think it's important to be veryself-aware, like, do what gives

(01:08:23):
you energy, like, do what lightsyou up, you know 100 yeah, and
I, to be honest, I really amjust fighting there.

There's so many things I could say, and so I'm
just fighting there, to, uh, tonot over speak, but oh yeah I, I
think that, um, yeah, I, Ithink that the yeah, the genuine
nature, is definitely what'sthe most successful part.
I sort of lost where I was goingto go with that.
We were talking about theconference.

(01:08:49):
Yeah, I don't know.
I just think that that was ayeah, that's the most natural
direction that I think you couldhave ever gone, and I don't
think I'm going to find thequestion that I was gonna ask
well the idea of genuine,genuine nature and character.

Josh Hall (01:09:04):
I actually I think that's really really important,
especially today because of ai,like people can sense bullshit
more so than ever.
A mile away and I think, yearsof the entrepreneurial hustle
culture and the like, thelamborghini lifestyle, private
plane stuff is just notresonating like it was.

(01:09:24):
I mean, that's been the casefor a long time.
But I do think there's evenmore opportunity, even just for
service providers, as webdesigners like the more, just
like real you are and somebody'slike I just I trust this person
and I resonate with them, Ilike them.
That's it, that's how, that'show you make it, that's how you
sell.

Well and I think that was that was the point that
I was going to make is when Iwas saying that you live by your
code.
Uh, what what I do admire is isthat when you have, when you
have, boundaries that aredefined, you're like this is who
I am, this is what um like,maybe this is what I talk about,

(01:10:02):
or this is what I'm interestedin.
And I think when you're youngerand maybe you're just trying to
fit in in life, you'll justtalk with anybody.
I'm that guy, I was the guy whowanted I had a slew of friends
across a big smorgasbord of justpeople to talk to.
But what I've found as I getolder and I want my kids to see
this, that's define, define yourboundaries.

(01:10:22):
Here's who I talk to, what Italk about, here's what I
believe, here are my, my stanceson life, here, and then stand
by them.
And I think that you, I reallydo think you've done that really
well, because I think that youhave quality relationships and I
know for myself I've had betterquality relationships and
there's nothing wrong with thepeople that you know that you

(01:10:44):
were communicating with before.
But you have to know thedirection you want to go.
And in order to do that, youneed to have some guidelines,
you know, otherwise you're justlike I said you're going to
chase all kinds of rabbits andyou'll you'll, at the end of
your life, you'll just have, youknow, a very chaotic story.

Josh Hall (01:11:03):
So it's an interesting point too because,
like, when it comes toboundaries and constraints, you
know you're a dad of four girls.
Like you get to a point whereyou only have so much time and
bandwidth and then it becomesall about like priority and it's
weird to think about puttingpeople on a priority list, but
you kind of have to do that atsome point.
It's like you know, like, likeI like to be honest, I'm only

(01:11:26):
going to go to coffee and hangout with folks, like so many
people with the limited time Ihave.
Like, if you ask about it,absolutely we're on.
I'm going to make time forChris.
But there are some people likethis just happened recently
where somebody mild in the oldband-aids asked about hanging
out for lunch.
I'm just like this seems itseems weird to think about this,

(01:11:48):
but I'm like, what's the roi onmy time?
You know what I mean.
Like you do get to a placewhere it's like is this?
You know this is an old friend,it would be a great comma but
I'm like you know I'm gonna haveto take time away from my
family or my work.
I'm, you know, in a busy season, as it always is.
So it's like, is that going tobe worth, but then of course you
know it's not going to be anhour, it's going to be an hour

(01:12:09):
and a half, and then you gotprep and afterwards it's like
we're looking at probably threehours is.
Is that going to be worth it,or should I get my dns course
done and and I should probablydo that or do this podcast with
Chris?
That's a bigger priority.
So I've had a friend, learnthat.

Hey, I do believe in the return on, the return on
investment, even with friends.
It's, yeah, it's.
It's not that I'm looking togain some sort of monetary value
out of you, but I don't want to.
I don't want to invest into youif you can't invest back into
me.
I don't want to overdraw my, mybank account in order to kind

(01:12:43):
of make you, if you can't investback into me, um, I don't want
to overdraw my, my bank account,uh, in order to kind of make
you, you know to, to be friendly.
You know, I want if I mean youand I, we don't, we don't even
get together.
We get together every fewmonths, but usually we have
something like appetizing totalk about and we, you know, we
want it to be valuable for usboth to have a conversation and,
um, because we're both busy andso when we get together, you

(01:13:03):
know, it's nice to know that,like, I'm like, oh, I'm gonna,
I'm gonna look into this or I'mgonna share this with josh or
whatever, so well, I mean itgoes back to iron sharpens, iron
right, like that.

Josh Hall (01:13:14):
Just the idea of like , yeah, we, we both challenge
each other when we meet up, likewhether it's ai stuff or
whether you asking me aboutevent stuff and what I'm up to.
Like we, we both leave.
Like Ooh, I guarantee you'veleft some coffee shop meetings,
just like I have.
Where it's like, ooh, I want tojump on this, I got some ideas
now and that's the best man,that's so much better than the,
you know, going somewhere withan old friend from high school.

(01:13:36):
And it's like, oh, and again, II feel a little bit about
saying it like that, but it'sjust the reality.
Like you only have so much time, uh, when you're a busy family
man, entrepreneur, all all thethings, so you have to use the
time wisely and that'sdefinitely where I've landed.

Yeah, yeah, A hundred percent man.

Josh Hall (01:13:56):
Yeah, dude.
Well, speaking of time, I knowyou're on a big project, so I
really appreciate your time onthis.
Chris, this is great man.
Where should people go to catchin with you?
And until we can figure outpurchasing web designcom, where
can people go?

Yeah, yeah, you can, yeah Chrisvwebcom and pretty
much Chris V web for everything,all the socials, so I'm, uh,
I'm there, so heck, yeah, dude.

Josh Hall (01:14:25):
Well, chris, thank you man again publicly.
Dude, thank you for investingin me with your time early on.
I mean, you know, I just think.
I think back to those earlydays often like gosh, it was, it
was you.
You probably had no idea the,the, the seeds that you were
planning to help me get to thispoint.
So big thanks, man.

And thank you for uh returning the investment uh
with me and you know Iappreciate it and all the
conversations to come.
So it's awesome, heck.

Josh Hall (01:14:51):
Yeah, dude, let's meet up here, let's meet, let's
meet.
We're about due.
We'll be due here pretty soon,so let's do it for the end of
the year, for sure.

Cool, Thanks brother .

Josh Hall (01:15:00):
Thanks, chris, cheers dude.
All right, my friend.
Well, I do hope you enjoyedthis one Again.
These are the kind of convosI'm lucky to have with Chris
here in person every once in awhile and I'm so glad we had a
chance to sit down and actuallyrecord one of these and I really
took a lot away from thisconversation.
I'm sure you did too.
So leave us a comment, let usknow any takeaways you want to

(01:15:24):
share, whether you're acorporate web designer or
whether you're a freelancer oranything in between.
I'm sure Chris would love tohear your thoughts from this one
.
I will let him know.
To check the comments for theshow notes for this episode, you
can leave us a comment atjoshhallco slash 397.
And again, you can go check outChris.
His personal site is chrisbweb.
That's two Bs at the end, com.

(01:15:45):
That will be linked, of course,at joshhallco slash 397.
Big thanks to my good friendChris for coming on and sharing
quite transparently which is notalways the case with folks in
corporate life if you evernoticed that A lot of times
they're very tight to the chestwith their stuff but really

(01:16:05):
appreciate Chris sharing abouthis experience transparently
pros and cons on the life of acorporate web designer.
And yeah again commentsjoshuaco.397.
I will be on the lookout foryour thoughts and takeaways and
I will let Chris know the same.
All right, my friend, staysubscribed.
More good episodes on the wayand some fun stuff on the
podcast here soon as well.
So make sure to subscribe and Iwill see you on the.

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397 - Life as a Corporate Web Designer with Chris Webb

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