398 - Trademarking Your Web Design Business with Ann Koppuzha - Web Design Business with Josh Hall

Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Ann Koppuzha (00:00):
There's going to come a day where we literally
can't work anymore, even if wewant to, and so, therefore, we
should be prepping to sell ourbusinesses eventually.
And what does that entail?
That entails a couple of thingsthat I thought about.
One it's having a unique brand.
So when you sold InTransStudios, it was called InTrans
Studios, and I'm sure thatreally helped having a brand

(00:23):
that like separate from you andthat you can sell to someone.
And then someone was like okay,great, now it's in transit
studios.
I'm selling that to Eric and theclients that we transit studios
is okay, there's a new owner intransit studios, but in transit
studios itself is it is stillcontinuing to break.
So that really helps to havinga monthly reoccurring revenue

(00:44):
and having it auto built, justlike you say about having your
maintenance plans like that isgold Right, and having to be
able to have those plans set upand so that someone wants to buy
it can be like if you don't getanother client ever again.
Here is a list of continuingmonthly recurring clients.
That's really helpful.
Welcome to the Web DesignBusiness Podcast with your host,

(01:06):
josh Hall, helping you build aweb design business that gives
you freedom and a lifestyle youlove.

Josh Hall (01:14):
Hello, my friend, it's so good to have you here In
this one.
We're going to dive intotrademarks and help you decide
whether or not now, or maybeeventually one day, that you
want to trademark your businessname, or maybe even one day that
you want to trademark yourbusiness name, or maybe even one
of your products or servicesshould you choose to sell one
day, or even if you just want toown your actual brand name,

(01:35):
trademarking is going to be theway to go.
But this is not a painlessprocess.
In fact, the reason I'm soexcited to share this
conversation with you is it iswith a web designer and online
marketer slash lawyer.
This is Ann Capuza.
She has been on the podcastbefore.
She is my personal legalconfidant.

(01:56):
She is who I turn to for alllegal matters and she also does
trademarks.
So I've actually worked withher and hired her to help me
trademark Web Designer Pro andI'm here, use the little
copyright R symbol on the logoand I have pure ownership of

(02:28):
that domain and that name as abrand and as an entity.
That gives me full control ofwhatever I wanna do with it
moving forward in the future.
So to help you with this, ann'sgot a lot of great tips for you
and again, trademarking inparticular is something that you
may wanna consider as far aswhen you wanna do it, how you
wanna go about it, what theprocess looks like.
That's what we unpack here inthis one.

(02:49):
So I want to personally give abig shout out and thanks to Ann,
because it was a long process,but she is a hound dog when it
comes to legal stuff and shejust gets stuff done and she got
our trademark done.
So Web Designer Pro isofficially trademarked.
Thank you, ann, for the shownotes for this episode.
Go to joshhallco, slash 398.
There you can connect with herand get all the links and

(03:09):
resources that we mentioned.
So head over there.
After this and now myconversation with Anne to help
you decide what you may or maynot want to trademark in your
business eventually.
It's really good to have youback, anne, good to reconnect
with you here.
I actually just I'm in JayKlaus's membership the lab and
somebody asked about I don'tknow if you reached out yet, but

(03:32):
they asked about oh cool.
Cool, yeah.
He asked about some sort ofissue with taxes or moving a
business and they asked if heknew a lawyer and he said he's
from California.
I'm like, oh, two birds, yougot Anne who will get it done,
and you're in California.

So, um, yeah, thank you, I really appreciate
it.

Josh Hall (03:48):
Yeah, no problem.
Listen, you have such a uniquelike area of specialty in the
market, especially with where Iam, because most of us just
don't know many lawyers and wedo they're just the kind of the
old curmudgeon type.
Um, you are very uniquely andwell positioned to be a lawyer
for creatives of all types.

(04:09):
You talked to me recently abouthow, when it comes to selling
something, to really considertrademarks and the legalities of
the services we create, and Iwant to get your thoughts on
this up front.
But we just had thisconversation in pro recently on
a coaching call where I think weall kind of realized any

(04:29):
service we create is a productand any product we have is an
with the assets they're creating.
So yeah, I don't know theinitial question, but I do
appreciate prompting me on thatidea.

(04:51):
So to find that, yeah.

So here's what happened.
I was talking to anotherentrepreneur who is not a
designer but is in the landscapebusiness and she was telling me
that she's thinking aboutbuying another business.
So I'm like, oh, okay, great.
And then she was telling mewhat I like about the business
is that there are, there arealready clients.
He was like it's a turn andplay business.
And I'm like, okay, that soundsreally cool.

(05:14):
And I was like, are those plansare like, is it like a monthly
retainer and is it like autobilling, right, or do you have
to like wait for them to sendyou invoices and checks and
stuff?
And she's like, no, no, it'sall auto billing, they're all.
You know.
I, as soon as I buy thebusiness and I all that
information will get transferredto me.
And I was like, wow, this isexactly what Josh talks about in

(05:34):
his web design club and they'realso in Web Designer Pro and
then also in your businesscourse.
Because, you know, I alwaysthink at the end of the day
business course, because youknow, I always think at the end
of the day, we should all bebuilding businesses that are
sellable and we need to do thatbecause one like at some point
we're going to want to retire orat some point we're going to
have to retire right, like youand I are sort of at our

(05:56):
midpoint in life and you know,at some point it's going to.
There's going to come a daywhere we can't we literally
can't work anymore, even if wewant to, and so, therefore, we
should be prepping to sell ourbusinesses eventually.
And what does that entail?
That entails a couple of thingsthat I thought about.
One, it's having a unique brand.
So when you sold InTransStudios, it was called InTrans

(06:19):
Studios, and I'm sure thatreally having a brand that was
like separate from you, and thatyou consult someone and then
someone was like okay, great,now it's in transit studios I'm
selling that to Eric and theclients.
That we transit studios is okay, there's a new owner in transit
studios, but in transit studiositself is it is still
continuing, right, so thatreally helps.

(06:43):
Two, having a monthly recurringrevenue and having it auto-built
, just like you say about havingyour maintenance plans like
that is gold, right, and havingto be able to have those plans
set up and so that someone mustbuy.
You can be like if you don'tget another client ever again.
Here is a list of continuingmonthly recurring clients.
That's really helpful.
Three, having your standardoperating procedures written

(07:04):
down so that all these processesare figured out and can be
easily communicated and trainedby the next person.
That is really importantbecause one of the biggest
hassles of buying a business isokay, now I'm in this business,
how do I run it Like, what do Ido?
Right, having everythingwritten down and then.
Four, having clear financingand accounting.
That's also really important.

(07:25):
I think you always talk aboutusing 17 hats for all of your
invoicing purposes or thingslike that, and so having a
system like that.
So, basically, I was thinkingabout this story and I was
thinking about this woman that Iwas talking to and I was like,
wow, josh covers all of this inhis business course and in Web
Designer Pro, and so this isjust.
I was thinking about howapplicable it is and how web
designers can intentionallybuild a business that they can

(07:48):
ultimately sell because it is anasset.

Josh Hall (07:50):
Let's talk about that idea and I do love that
overview.
This is really timely becausewe're just this month of time of
recording.
This is five years since I soldin transit, so I think the
episode I'll be doing on that isgoing to come out prior to this
.
But I have had some time tothink about that.
Things I would have donedifferently and things I did
well and those things you listedout.
Some of those things I didreally good on and some I could

(08:12):
have done better on, like clearbookkeeping, but it's because
I'm using at that point I had afew things outside of 17 Hats as
well.

Yeah, you didn't have a Jaws call to tell you all
of these things yes, right,yeah, yeah.
But you're the OG Pathfinderand so you didn't have you.

Josh Hall (08:30):
And what's interesting, though, is to that
point of building somethingintentionally to sell, even if
you don't want to sell it.
Right now, that has become moreand more clear to me how
important that is, and I think,just for sanity as a business
owner, most web designers get tothe point where you're like I
am literally just, I created ajob for myself that I can't keep

(08:53):
up with, and even if you wantto scale, if you treat your
business sellable, it will helpyou scale and it'll help you
bring on folks.
It'll help you automate things.
So, for somebody who whatwhat's like your challenge?
And for people, apart from whatyou just said, what's what are
some more reasons to build asellable business?

I think there's nothing more for me personally,
when I started thinking aboutthis, it changed the trajectory
of my business.
It completely changed mybusiness model.
One um and a two it's freedom.
It made my business a loteasier because of just what you
said of like when you are justdoing client work, you're in day

(09:37):
in, day out, like that is agrind.
It's gonna get like if you weretrying to scale.
It is going to get busy andstressful and at the end of the
day, weirdly like that'sultimately not what's most
sellable.
Like it, it's helpful, it'scertainly like great.
But like you know, someonethat's going to buy your
business wants to buy some sortof productized set that they can

(09:59):
just be like okay, great, itdoesn't matter who the owner is,
this business is going tocontinue as is, and so I just it
pushed me to think about a moreproductized business, and then
trying to develop a moreproductized business has made my
life a lot easier at this point.
One in terms of like being likeokay, these are the specific
services I offer, this is howmuch it costs, this is how many

(10:19):
hours I have, and then beingable to like plug that into my
schedule.
So now, when someone comes to meand they say I want people
advice and I can price itappropriately, but if they can't
pay that, then I'm like, okay,well, I really can't help you
because I need to stick to thisprice point in order to hit a
certain revenue goal, in orderto like hit, in order to make
this whole business manageable,like it has to be at these
assets.

(10:39):
And so it's freed up a lot ofguilt and given me a lot more
control over my schedule.
One, and just in terms of methinking about my services that
way, and then, two, I amshifting more and more to a more
productized business andscaling with contract templates,
and that's been really helpfulfor growing my business in terms
of something that's like morealigned with my energy I'd love

(11:00):
to create.
I'd love to create products andcontent and valuable and the
podcast and things like that.
I don't necessarily love doingsite work as much, and so being
able to sort of shift more inthat direction has been really
helpful.

Josh Hall (11:14):
So productizing in and around the services that you
have, like you said, whataligns with your energy, what
aligns with your calendar.
Another aspect of a sellablebusiness that I found more
recently is we've been havingsome conversations with some of
the more we'll say establishedin life pros as in like they're
older and it's interestingbecause a lot of folks who I

(11:39):
oversee, and just folks I knowin the industry, maybe started
doing web design in the 90s orearly 1000s and they were in
their 30s or 40s and now they'relike mid 50s or mid 60s in some
cases and they're really like,yeah, what's the exit plan for
this?
And there's, of course, thesellable route.
But I think another interestingoffshoot of that is like a pass

(12:02):
downable route.
What's that called?
What's it called when you passdown your business?
What's is there a technicalterm for?

that I mean, I don't know, I don't know,
there's a technical term, butyou can sell your book.
A business right.

Josh Hall (12:14):
You can sell like if you pass it down to kids or um
you know, somebody takes overyour business internally yeah,
oh, setting up like some sort oflike family business.

Yeah, basically like what does?

Josh Hall (12:22):
that look like to.
It's just kind of interesting,you think of like family
business.
Yeah, basically, like what doesthat look like?
It's just kind of interesting.
You think about a familybusiness like I worked with a
steel company and they were athird generation, so every
generation you know the dad tookit over.
And then I'm thinking, likewith web designers, they were
getting to that first, soonMaybe now in some cases we're in
that first, like people arestarting to pass down their web

(12:44):
design businesses to theirchildren if they should want to,
and it's fascinating to thinkabout that because it feels so
new.
But it's like holy crap, somepeople have been doing this for
30 years.

I mean, yeah, absolutely.
The key is having a lot ofclear, standard operating
procedures to be like okay, thisis how we go about getting new
clients, this is the process,this is how we onboard them,
this is how we execute a plan ofproject, this is how we
conclude the project, having alot of clear processing that you
can then just train the nextgeneration, whether that means
you are hiring someone now torun your business because, josh,

(13:16):
I think you did that in transityou had hired a designer, right
A couple years To help you,yeah and Right To help you, yeah
and so to help you run thebusiness, whether that's your
exit plan, or you're hiring your, you're training your children
or whoever it is to take overthe business, or you're selling
your business.
These are all different ways tobe able to sort of take that

(13:38):
business and keep it running,even if you want to, if you want
to retire or you want to getset back.
But again, the key is havingclear, standard operating
procedures back.

Josh Hall (13:43):
But again, the key is having clear, standard
operating procedures.
Would you view in like adifferent path of legality?
Set up trademarks and stuff,whether you want to sell
something to a third party orwhether you want to pass down
your business to your next ofkin.

I mean so in terms of, like, a lot of this process
is going to be the same.
You know you want to havemonthly recurring revenue.
That's great.
Obviously, that's what's goingto make the difference between
whether this is sellable versuswhether or not this is a
business that you can pass on toyour heirs, like your whoever
or whoever you hire.
Like those people can run iteven if you don't have monthly

(14:18):
recurring revenue.
In order to sell it, you reallyneed that monthly recurring
revenue.
That's like super important.
And that's where yourmaintenance plans come in.
And that's why all the contenton setting up how to maintenance
plans like what are youoffering, how to sell it all of
that is super gold to likebuilding a sellable business,
because you absolutely need that.
That's what people are lookingfor, where, like, how much is

(14:41):
coming in monthly?
And then is that like on autopay or whatever.
That's important.
And then, of course, the restof it is really important for
doing both in order to sell yourbusiness or in order to pass it
, which is having some sort ofunique brand, having clear SOPs
and having clear finance andaccounting so you can just hand
over all the documents to apotential seller or whoever's
going to run it next, and theyknow how to run with this.

Josh Hall (15:04):
What about tax setups and trademarks and stuff like
that?
Would either one of those, anyof those areas, be different, or
would that pretty much be thesame?

So tax setups is that should be about the same,
because you know if you'rerunning a business like, you
should have some sort ofoptimized tax structure
depending on what level you areat.
Like maybe you're a soleprovider if you're under 50K,
maybe at 100K you're at LLC andyou have an S-board, things like

(15:34):
that, and then maybe if you'regoing beyond that, you have
other, more specific tax studies.
So that should be the same.
In terms of trademarks,trademarks is kind of tricky
because, on the one hand, myattitude is sort of like
trademark is kind of trickybecause, on the one hand, my
attitude is sort of liketrademarks are really good if
you want to expand and grow, totrademark your own business name
like you and makes completesense, you know it really it's

(15:54):
not necessarily critical.
I think it's very, very helpfuland important for all
businesses to do a trademarksearch when they're starting
their business to make sure thatthe name they choose for their
business is not infringing onsomeone else's business.
But whether to file an actualtrademark is more of a question
of expansion.
And so yeah, if you want tohave like different in transit

(16:15):
studios, like all over, all overthe country, or maybe in
transit merchandise like, thenit really makes sense to
trademark in transit.
But it doesn't necessarily makesense if you're not necessarily
marketing national age.

Josh Hall (16:29):
What about does it increase the sellability if it's
trademarked?
If somebody were to take the,yeah.

Absolutely Right, Because that's like a different
I mean, that's often pretty muchis often part of the like the
acquisition process, becausesomeone wants to know that if
you have a branch, that it isalready protected, that it is
already secured and protected.

Josh Hall (16:53):
What about here's a good one for you, anne what
about services or products orpackages within a bigger brand
or just a wider name brand thathas like they're like
individually trademarked?
You know, we've both worked mygood friend Shannon, you've
worked with her.
She has like trademarkedentities under her wider

(17:16):
umbrella of brands and I thinkabout some web designers.
We have a web designer, whitneyin pro, who has the wellness
website system.
I think it's trademarked andit's like her main product but
it's under her personal brandand it's like.
You know she could sell thattechnically.
But my question is like can youhave like a different level of

(17:37):
trademarks?
Could I have in transit studiostrademarked and then have you
know Package 1 be trademarkedand our maintenance plan be
trademarked with clever names?
Is that common at all?

It is common for bigger brands, as you know, like
if you've seen Nike, nike'strademarked almost every aspect
of their brand, like theirswoosh, their logo, like their
Nike, the name like the sound,their swoosh, their logo, like
their nike, the name likethey're, the sound they so much
of nike is trademarked and theydo it because they want to
protect their brand cover.
They trademark the sound yeah,I'm pretty sure they did.

(18:08):
There are lots of companies dothat right, like nbc and the nbc
, I think, trademark.

Josh Hall (18:12):
They're like those dings that you hear um that
people identify with them and soyes, so if I sneeze and
accidentally sound like nike, amsomebody going to come to my
door and be like hey, josh, youowe a hundred bucks for that.

No, because you're not selling that right.

Josh Hall (18:26):
Yeah, yeah, gotcha.

But in terms of whether or not you can, you know
the things you can trademark.
You can trademark your name,your business name.
You can trademark like any sortof like signature product or
framework or something like thatand there are entrepreneurs
that do that and then any kindof products or merchandising.
So if you're going to be, ifyou're going to look at Nike,
they're going to have that.
They're going to say, nike inthe hat category and Nike in the

(18:48):
shoe category and Nike in theclothing accessories and Nike in
like other sportswear.
They trade back all of thesedifferent things.
So, yes, it's absolutely, youcan absolutely do that.
Big brands absolutely do that.
And then for smaller businesses,it's really a question of what
is worth your resources.
So for you, does it make a lotof sense to trademark Web
Designer Pro?
It absolutely does.
You know, are there otherassets part of it that you could

(19:11):
necessarily trademark?
Maybe, but it's just a questionof, like you know, for small
businesses it's always aquestion of prioritizing what
you're spending on, and sosometimes it makes sense and I
have seen lots of people do thattrademark, you know frameworks
and specific products andsometimes it doesn't, because
it's not necessarily a growthvehicle.

Josh Hall (19:29):
Well, I'm even thinking about with this podcast
.
I don't know if I should saythis live publicly, but like I
don't have web design businesstrademark.
But part of me is like it is,you know, like we're the number
one podcast in web design.
Now it's the top generator formy business.
So part of me is like maybe Ishould get that trademarked as
well.

Right, but that's what I'm saying you have
something that is scaling and sothat would make sense to be
able to trademark all of that.
Not everyone wants to scalelike that necessarily, and so it
may or may not make sense.

Josh Hall (20:03):
Yeah, but I do imagine if somebody has a
maintenance plan and maybe aproduct ties web design service
that are like two separateentities, I wonder if they were
to sell those off to maybedifferent people.
Maybe that would be, I guess,what my question is, like, when
is the time to trademark?
You were on an episode two, 54,and we talked about like when

(20:26):
to switch up your legalstructure, you know roughly with
ranges, like if you're, youknow, you even said like if
you're under a certain amount,just make money and then you can
, you know, figure certain thelegal side of it with your setup
as it expands.
But same thing with trademarkswhen, yeah, when is the time to
trademark?

The thing.
Okay, I think every businessthat actually let me back.
Let me just start with a storyLike I had a cousin who started
a business and she sent it to meand she was like, and I was
like, oh great, um, I, you know,I'm a trademark supplier.
So I happened to like put hername into the trademark system
and I'm like, actually, this isa trademark name Like, you can't
use this.
And then so she had alreadydone all the branding and so I

(21:06):
was like, okay, you had toswitch everything out, because
there's a legal risk that ifthey ever come after you and say
, stop using our name like, youhave to rebrand everything,
right, and so that's something Ithink about one.
So what my takeaway from that iswhen you are starting a
business because that businessis not your name and if it's
like something like in transitstudio, the powerhouse legal

(21:30):
strategy like you shoulddefinitely do your research to
make sure you're not tramplingon someone else's trademark.
That's really important becauseyou don't want to have to like
if somebody like somebody couldcome after you then and say, hey
, you have to like change yourname and then you have to hire a
lawyer to communicate with them.
That's annoying and expensive,or like you could pay legal fees
, and obviously that's like, andthose can be in like thousands
of dollars and obviously that'snot something anyone wants to

(21:53):
pay for.
So that's why you should always, when you start a business and
it's not just your name youshould always double check to
make sure that your name is notaffecting someone else's
trademark rights.

Josh Hall (22:04):
And I offer us.
Where do we do that, anne?
Is that just a Google search,or is there like a directory
where you can look up trademarks?

Yeah, so you have to do a thorough search on both,
like on different platforms andon the USPTO trademark service,
and if you want a lawyer to doit, then I can do it or some
other attorney can do atrademark search.
But people often, often skipthis part and this is like a
very important part of it tomake sure that you're not

(22:33):
scrambling on someone else'strademark rights.
I actually have a differentplatform and someone came to me
and they said that I wasinfringing on their trademark
rights.
Unfortunately for them, I wasabsolutely not and I had been
using the brand name for longerthan they had come up with it,
so they didn't do their researchto see if I was using it.
And then they attempted to getme to change my name and I said

(22:55):
no, not changing my name becauseI've been using it longer.
I said no not to use my namebecause I've been using it
longer.
So that's what I say.
Like, you really need to beable to do your thorough
research and that means you know, look on Google, click on the
USPTO trademark search and lookat different platforms as well,
and if you would like moreprofessional assistance to do
that, then I offer a service todo this for designers, or you

(23:18):
can find another lawyer who canassist you with this kind of
stuff.
This is a critical part thatmost entrepreneurs miss and most
designers don't know to telltheir clients that they need to
do the trademark search for aname when it's not their own
name.

Josh Hall (23:30):
Yeah Well, and it kind of gets to the point of
like, when you're a designer,you're just excited to find a
domain name that's availabletypically, and then it's like,
oh shoot, I mean that's actuallyan additional way to check too.
It's like what domainextensions are available for
your name, Because if they'reall taken, it's likely there's
other brands using that.
So I'll make sure that's linkedin the show notes.

(23:52):
So USPTO Trademark Search,that's a good resource and, as
you mentioned, I mean, yourtrademark lawyer is one of the
many things that you do.
I've been working with you forPro.
Back to the question of when totrademark, though, I imagine you
don't want to be about ready tosell your business and then
hunt for a trademark, so wouldyou recommend that it's when

(24:13):
somebody gets to a certainrevenue range or a certain phase
in their business, certainphase in their business, or is
it when they adopt this mindsetof like, okay, I'm going to
treat what I do as like a realbusiness, real products, real
offers, real packages, and thenstart a trademark?
I would imagine you also wantto make sure you keep the name,
because you don't want totrademark something and change

(24:33):
the name.

Totally so, actually.
So one do the trademark searchas soon as you're starting your
business, whether as long asit's not just AnnKabuzacom or
Joshuacom, like not your name,you're being a different name
which you should to make yourbrand less sellable.
Do the search as soon as youstart your name.
As soon as you start yourbusiness, as soon as your
clients come to you and they'relike I want to build a website
for my new business.
Like do this trademark searchthen, in terms of actual

(24:57):
trademarking, I think this is ahot take.
I don't think you shouldtrademark right away.
I think you should wait atleast a year of using that name
because, as long as you're notaffecting someone else's
trademark rights, you can start,go ahead and using that name.
In fact, the uspto needs you tostart using the name in order
to show proof that this is aname you're using to file a
trademark.

(25:18):
So I think you should wait atleast a year, and the reason why
I say that is because a lot ofpeople change their names in
that first year.
I certainly did, if I know,like I know lots of people who
have, because their business hasevolved, their product has
evolved and now they want to gowith a new name.
So I don't want you to put themoney toward trademarking if

(25:38):
you're not sure you're going tostick with that name.

Josh Hall (25:40):
Yeah, so you can.
I'm sorry, just case in point.
I got a little trademarktrigger happy a few years ago
and then I thought for sure,because I bought
webdesignbusinessmasterycom.
I bought that domain and I waslike this is going to be my high
level program.
I thought for sure it wasbefore I revamped things into
what is now Web Designer Pro andI was like I'm going to do this
for sure and I went throughTrademarkia and I spent $400 on

(26:02):
getting that trademarked, didn'tget it and didn't end up using
Web Design Business Mastery, sowasted $400 and jumped the gun
on trademarking that when Ididn't need to.

Yeah.
And so start thinking abouttrademarks about a year into
using that brand and you're likewait, I definitely want to
stick with that name and brandand therefore I'm going to
invest the time and money to gothrough the trademark process.
And you know it could beexpensive.
Like the actual trademark is acouple $100.
If you're going to hire alawyer, that's going to be
$1,000 plus.
And then you know you havemaintenance fees and stuff like

(26:36):
that.
So there's no reason, I think,to put down the time and money
if it's not some, if it's not aname you're sure you're going to
stick with.
Now it does take, you know,nine to 12 months to get the
trademark and so you don't wantto start it like right when
you're thinking about sellingyour business Like you do want
to start it like sooner thanthat.
But it's helpful if you do itlike I think about a year and to

(26:56):
make sure you're committed tothis idea and name.

Josh Hall (26:59):
So that's good.
Committed to the name, it's nottaken.
I know you've stressed theimportance of checking the, the
trademark, just to make sureyou're not infringing anything.
So well received on that.
That makes total sense.
Committed, you have like aproof of work and a proof of a
brand, either a website or awebsite extension with that

(27:19):
brand, and then, yeah, thatmakes sense.
I'm visualizing this as likeokay, and then when you're like,
even though I don't want tosell, I want to make this a
sellable asset or a sellablebusiness.
That's probably the time,because it's still I mean,
that's still affordable in thesense of it's not tens of
thousands of dollars, it's notlike a huge financial commitment

(27:40):
to get a trademark, but it is atime commitment, there's work
to it, and then, as youmentioned, your options are
basically to hire you know youor another trademark lawyer, or
you do it yourself, which isextremely time, time intensive,
potentially what.
What are your thoughts?
And you can be brutally honeston trademarkia and these other
like do it yourself yourself.
We make it easy to do.
A trademark is is there.

(28:01):
Are there a lot more to thestory than than sites like that?

or josh, you've worked with them and then you've
worked with me and maybe youare the best position to speak
about what the difference is islike to work with me versus you.
I mean, if I like I don't wantpeople to think that I'm just,
I'm obviously biased, like Ithink you should have a
trademark lawyer, but yeah, I'dbe curious what your thoughts on
the differences it makes itfelt like a big agency.

Josh Hall (28:26):
It felt like everything was standardized and
they had different people theywere turning me to to answer
forms.
And then the weird thing was Isigned up for different
trademarks, initially for WebDesign Business Mastery and
another one, and then they weredifferent times when I signed up
for them, but then I got liketwo emails at the exact same
time to pay more because theycouldn't get them in the first

(28:51):
round.
So it was like Now I had acolleague who had a good
experience with Trademarkia, butthat was not my experience.
He must have had just adifferent brand name and maybe
because I went for Web DesignBusiness Mastery but didn't have
anything on it set up, I Ineeded to hear this conversation
first because I went for thetrademark first and didn't go
for the, you know, for the, forthe commitment or the proof

(29:12):
first.
So yeah, I mean absolutely.
Um, especially at my level,where time is more important to
me than than anything else Like,yeah, it's, it's a no brainer
investment for me to have youwho knows what the heck you're
doing and knows who to talk toand get shit done, rather than
me trying to fumble through andthen having to talk to these
other people and do calls andget different.

(29:33):
Yeah, that was definitely myexperience.
Wouldn't recommend it.
Wouldn't recommend trademarkiaor the uh.

The other experiences that's my hot take
live in public so I think thedifference is, when you go with
one of those trademarks, you cansee tech services.
You're just, it's literally amill, like they're trying to go
take you in there, easy processlike all right, great, your
trademark is rejected or not.

(30:00):
Like they're just the quickest,they just want to minimize the
time.
Uh, when you work with atrademark lawyer, like you get
someone who's like caring aboutyour business, like I deeply
care about your business, butI'm a pro right and so like I'm
gonna put like extra care intoit and like give you more
strategic advice, being like hey, joss, I think we should file
in like multiple categories, notjust one, and like that sort of
care and attention like can goa long way in getting you a

(30:22):
better legal result and it'sreally important and really
undervalued, but like you will.
Whoever you hire into yourbusiness, like you want to make
sure that there's someone whocares about your business, um,
and also there's small businessowners.
They're going to understandwhat you're going through a lot
better than some other male, andso you you know all that
context is really helpful.
And then the third thing is Itry to tell my clients what are

(30:46):
the chances you're going to faceanother legal problem in your
business ever Pretty high right.
And so, hey, if you come to meand you come to me for your
trademark, what are the chancesyou might want to come to me for
another legal issue sometimedown the road?
Or legal question Pretty highright.
And so having a lawyer that youknow and you can connect with if
you have, like a legal question, even if you don't need to hire
them immediately.

(31:06):
But if you're like, hey, I'mthinking about this, do you have
any advice on this?
Maybe they can give you a quick, like one sentence response.
That's really helpful and youdon't get that with one of those
mails Like it's really helpfulto know a lawyer.
So this is like one of thethings I try to do.
I just try to make sure peopleknow that I exist.
Like if you have a legalquestion even if I'm not going
to charge you for it like if Iexist, you can come to me and

(31:29):
ask me that question and I'lltry to be as helpful as possible
one thing I did appreciate whenwe started going for the pro
trademark initially was yourkind of um, your expertise in
your consultative nature on thedifferent type of categories,
which was news to me.

Josh Hall (31:45):
basically, I mean, like with a lot of those other
trademark sites, you can, youcan see and you can choose, but
you're basically blindlychoosing what you think would be
good.
Can you dive into the differenttypes of categories for
trademarks and is it possiblefor somebody to be trademarked
in marketing but then not forbusiness, like how, how does
that work without opening toomuch of a can of worms?

yeah, you know, this is one of the trickiest
things about trademarks.
A lot of things abouttrademarks seems really
straightforward until you startdoing it and then you're like,
wait a second, this is like kindof confusing.
Um, so, for example, there arejust lots of different
categories and you want to bestrategic.
I just filed a trademark forsomeone last week and they
wanted it to be in they'rerenting out airbnb and I was,

(32:31):
okay, great, let's look in theairbnb category, that category.
There was a similar namealready in that category.
So I was like, all right, thenyou might get rejected in this
category because there's alreadysomeone's trademarked in this,
in the hotels and restaurantscategory.
So then I decided to look inadvertising and business, which
is a different category, to seeif there was another appropriate

(32:52):
like description that would befitting for what they did.
And sure enough there was onefor managing rental vacation
homes, and so I filed in thatcategory instead because I was
like, all right, there's no onewith this name in this category
and so we're going to file inthis category strategically
instead of the other category,because there is already a
business in that category, andso if there's a chance that my

(33:15):
client could get rejected in onecategory, I always look for
another and try to do at leastanother backup option because I
want to maximize their chance ofthem getting a trademark.
So that's just.
The question about categoriescan be a little tricky and can
be an opportunity to think morestrategically.

Josh Hall (33:32):
Is it possible, if you have a business that is
named something but you don'thave a trademarked, and then
another business comes onlineand has the exact same name and
then gets their own trademark,will the trademark?
Who is they behind trademark?

(33:53):
Is it just like the USgovernment?

Yeah, you can file trademarks at the state level
and at the federal governmentlevel.
I, the state government ischeaper and quicker, but the
problem is like then you'rerestricted to your state, so
maybe if you're running like apizza restaurant in your state,
it's not important to expandnationally.

Josh Hall (34:12):
Yeah, and that's fine .

That's fine for you.
But you still want to check tomake sure that there no one has
a federal trademark so that youcan still use that state
trademark in your state.
But if you're for you, forexample, like you have a
international business, rightlike so, there's no point for
you to register, just with ohio,like actually you're reaching
people all over the country, allover the world.

Josh Hall (34:32):
So having a us trademark is a federal trademark
, is what's important so withsomebody who has a service and
they call it something andthey're like this is my thing or
this is my business, but theyhaven't even thought about
trademarking it.
If someone comes along and hasthe exact same business, exact
same state, maybe they're andthey want to trademark it, could
they essentially bump you offand force you to change your

(34:54):
name if they trademark first?

No, they can't force you to change your name if
you've been using it longer,because using itself gives you
trademark right.
So they can't bump you.
The problem is that companythat's trademarked has much more
opportunity to grow, domerchandise.
It just creates a little.
It could create a legal battledown the road and trademarking

(35:18):
is cheaper than fighting thatlegal battle down the road.

Josh Hall (35:21):
So what would happen in that case of you know, like
I'm in Columbus, ohio, let'sjust well, you just use in
transit studios.
For an example, I have myagency.
I never trademarked it, didn'teven think about it, didn't hear
this conversation in time.
And then another business we'lljust say for the sake of ease
in Ohio has the exact same name,intrinsic Studios, and they're
dead set on trademarking thisthing.

(35:41):
They're dead set on making thistheir entity.
But I've been in businesslonger.
What are their options?
Would they just have toencourage me or pay me off to
use a different name, or wouldthey just trademark as much as
they could and then wait forlegal battles down the road?

so they I mean essentially like they could go
on and they can continue toexpand um, and then if they
wanted you to stop using that,then they could, like they would
, they could pay you to stopusing it, or they can try and
fight you legally to say, hey,we own this trademark.
Now, federally you'rerestricted to ohio, um, so that

(36:20):
means you can't advertise?
Uh, you can't.
You have to limit youradvertising to just ohio, like.
It becomes a more complexquestion of exactly what their
options are and what they wantand what they want to do, um,
and I just think it's you know,I want my clients to spend the
least amount of money they haveto on legal fees.
No one likes spending on legalfees, um.
And so that's why I always say,just if you are, if you are

(36:43):
going to grow a brand or grow abusiness like trademark early,
rather than having to deal withthese kind of questions later,
because if you have a trademark,you can always be like, yeah, I
already own a trademark.
You can always be like, yeah, Ialready own the trademark, so
you can't stop me from using it.

Josh Hall (36:55):
Well, I love the reminder that just starting the
business and having thatlongevity of it seems like
that's one of the most importantpieces.
It's like, no, I've had thisname for a long time.
I mean, even if it's a domainregistration or how long has the
site been in existence orwhatever.
I imagine that holds someweight.
And then also a reallyimportant point to double click

(37:16):
on there is that there's a hugedifference between local state
level and then nationally andthen global.
There's like four differentlevels.
It seems like I used to use aservice called Cardinal Lawns.
There were a lot of CardinalLawns, but in Central Ohio know,
in central Ohio there was thatone that was like the Cardinal

(37:37):
lawns here.
Um, we're actually now using acompany called Weedman, so I'd
love to see how many companiescalled Weedman have trademarks.
So someone do some a fun searchwith that.
Um but, all that to say.
Like you know, there were a tonof Cardinal lawns, but this was
the one that was like I don'tknow what there's.
You know the situation lookedlike, but a Cardinal lawn in

(37:57):
California is probably not anissue with Cardinal lawn in Ohio
, unless there's SEOimplications, exactly, but the
thing is for designers, like somuch of your work is national,
like I don't know if there are.

I would be curious , josh, how many of your members
get all their clients locallyversus how many of them are sort
of marketing and gettingclients from all over the
country.
I suspect I'll cut.

Josh Hall (38:17):
That's.
The problem is like, yeah, alot of people do local SEO or
just, you know, start locally,and that was my case.
I didn't know I would ever geta client outside of Ohio.
But referrals start happening.
And then you know if you workwith Cardinal Lawns and their
cousin Bob has a landscapingcompany in New York and they're
like, oh, we would love to dothe website too.
Suddenly you are national.

(38:37):
Whether you meant to or not,you're national.
So I do think for designers,web designers in particular,
it's important out of the gateto think nationally and globally
, because you can't control yourreferrals.

Yeah, and even Sam , who does tons of local SEO
right, he has a YouTube channeland he's growing nationally and
internationally, right, and so,yeah, local SEO is absolutely
important for building yourbusiness, but your business is
not limited to local SEO.

Josh Hall (39:07):
It can expand far beyond that.
What do you think the value ifyou look into sell a business or
make it sellable?
What would be the value of like?
How much does a trademark helpthat value like?
If we were to say we wanted tosell something for a hundred
thousand dollars, how much morevaluable could I sell it with a
trademark?

it's a really good question and the answer is it's
more of like a business assetthan shows how well your
business is Because it's justlike having clear books to be
like, okay, well, like I canliterally give you all the
paperwork to run this business,like you don't need to do
anything more about it, youdon't need to worry about
competitors, you don't need tobe worried about future legal

(39:49):
fights.
These are all the type ofthings that like it's sort of
like another thing on thechecklist and make sure you have
all this, all these things, sothat your business looks really
attractive.
It's, I kind of think of itlike you know, like should you
remodel your house before yousell it?
Like, yeah, it's like the, ifyou remodel it, the chances that
you're going to get a higherprice and a quicker buyer is

(40:09):
very high.
Right, you don't have to haveit in order to sell your house,
but it does make the prospectsof a sale much higher and much
more likely.

Josh Hall (40:17):
So yeah, and then I was also thinking, when it comes
to doing anything thatbasically adds more value, to
get ready to sell, I feel likeif there's, I feel almost feel
like if there's anything you cando to help that value and also
just make sure you don't getripped off, it's huge.

(40:39):
I've been watching Shark Tankmore and more and I noticed like
they always ask, especiallywith inventions, about patents
and if somebody does not havesomething that is patented or
patented, that's a big risk foran investor because like someone
could rip this off and it couldbe worth nothing totally.
Um, that's a big risk for aninvestor because like someone
could rip this off and it couldbe worth nothing, totally.

So that's kind of how I view trademarks yeah, and
that's true for yeah, and that'sabsolutely true for trademarks
too, because if you don't ownthe brand like, then it's hard.
You can't really expand intoall the different categories you
need.
I work with a lot of likee-commerce entrepreneurs and
they absolutely need a brand.
They they literally need tofile a trademark in order to be
on amazon brand registry, um,and so it's really important in

(41:20):
growing your business yeah, thatmakes sense.

Josh Hall (41:23):
Is there anything before we get ready to wrap this
up here, and is there anythingthat is like glaringly not
talked about, that we haven'tcovered?

um, as far as, yeah, good so I I think
designers are missing anincredible opportunity to both
add value to your clients and toum how to have an upsell on
your business.
I think every designer should beoffering their clients the
opportunity to check the trickwhether or not their name is
infringing on any trademarks andthat this is something that you

(41:55):
can partner with a lawyer likeme or another lawyer and you can
offer the service to yourclient so that you were saying,
hey, you're starting a business,you were starting, you were
launching out with a name thatis not your name.
The first thing you should do ismake sure that you could
actually use this name, thenit's not infringing on any
trademark rights and thereforecould actually use this need
that it's not infringing on anytrademark rights, um, and
therefore, like, I can help youdo that search, like, and you

(42:17):
can partner with a lawyer toactually run that search and get
a result, and so you can chargeyour client a couple hundred
dollars up for it, and so that'san upsell opportunity for
designers and it's a huge valueadd to clients like there.
No one should be startingbusinesses in this country
without running that kind ofbasic trademark search, and most
people, quite frankly, are anddesigners are a great way to

(42:41):
direct clients because theydon't know that they should be
running that search.

Josh Hall (42:45):
That's interesting, especially for those who are
doing branding and web design.

Yeah, I didn't think about that.

Josh Hall (42:50):
But just like how I recommend using Termageddon and
just basically having that as apart of your ongoing services.
I didn't think about that, butjust like how I recommend using
Termageddon and just basicallyhaving that as a part of your
ongoing services.
I didn't think about using yeah, like a trademark search and
legal entity as a design service.
That's really interesting.

Yeah, it's both an upsell opportunity and an
incredible way to add value.
Like you always say, josh, likeyou want to be the Sherpa
guiding your clients throughthis process, and so they're
coming to you and saying, hey,I'm launching a business, I want
branding and website design,great, awesome.
Let me show you all thedifferent parts about that.
Like they don't know anythingabout SEO or copywriting or
trademarks or anything, but you,as a designer, can really point

(43:27):
them to the right resources.

Josh Hall (43:28):
Yeah, you look like heck of an expert and and a
consultant, if you're like.
Before we invest in the $5,000branding package, I recommend
that we do a little trademarksearch here.
Maybe that could just besomething to question.
Maybe that'd be a good additionto a questionnaire which is is
your brand trademarked and, ifthey, say have you run that by a

(43:49):
lawyer?
Yeah, because a lot of peopleare like yeah, absolutely.

But like actually, have you done the search?

Josh Hall (43:59):
Oh no, employer.
Yeah, a lot of people are likeyeah, absolutely.
But like actually, have youdone the search?
Oh no.
So there we go.
There's a great little, alittle uh like tip that everyone
could implement right now.
Go into your contact form andask it before get a quote form
and say is your brand?
Yeah, have you requested atrademark, yes or no?

you don't have to do it in the contact form,
because I don't want to addanything in the contact form
that, like, would mess up thisprocess, but in your intake form
.
Yeah, like after this clienthas signed.
You know, ask them very clearlyhave you confirmed with a
lawyer that your name isactually trademarkable, or is
actually that you're, if you useyour name?

Josh Hall (44:28):
yeah, there it is.
So prime it for the upsell yeah, that's good and, again, it
does kind of just give a littlebit of weight to like designers
being not just a pixel pusher,but like we're in it to help you
in your business and the lastthing we want to do is build
your branding and build yourwebsite and then, oh, I have to
take everything down and rebrandeverything because somebody
else has that name.
Yeah, and there's a lot morethan just switching out a logo

(44:52):
by the way, with a brand and atrademark.

And SEO right.
You don't want to be a coupleof years down the road and be
like, oh God, you have to changeyour name Now.
The SEO is really messed up andthat takes months to fix right.
You can't just change the SEOovernight to get that.
You're going to face thattraffic issue and that's why
it's important to do thisbranding check early on that
you're going to face thattraffic issue and that's why
it's important to do this likebranding check early on.

Josh Hall (45:15):
That's fascinating.
What about outside of the U S?
Real quick, as we wrap this up,do they?
Is it a whole different ballgame getting something
trademarked in Europe orAustralia or wherever?

I'm not I'm not an expert in sort of the
international trademark systemand so I can't really speak to
that.
I do know that a lot of thesetypes of businesses do want an
American trademark, becausethat's where the gold standard
and that's where a lot ofcustomers are coming from,
whether you are in Europe orAustralia, and so it's very
helpful to have an American andliterally I just did one
yesterday for a Canadian companyfor this exact reason, because

(45:48):
their customers are American, sothey want an American trademark
.
So, if you're operating withAmerican clients, you'll want an
American trademark.

Josh Hall (45:56):
Very cool, interesting.
Well, anne, as always, I alwayslearn a lot talking with you
and, as you mentioned, like withtrademarks, it can seem like
something that would be prettysimple, but once you get into it
it's like, oh no, there's a lotmore to this than anyone
thought.
So, yeah, I definitelyappreciate you, as always being
in my corner.
I continue to refer you out tofolks.

(46:16):
Thank, you.
I think you really are in asweet spot.
So, yeah, I have one finalquestion for you.
But where should people go toconnect with you, even if they
just have some trademarkquestions or legal questions?

Yeah, the best ways to connect with me is you
can follow me on Instagram atpowerhouselegal, and then you
can always shoot me an email atann at powerhouse-legalcom.
Also have tons of freeresources.
I have a guide of like threenon-obvious clauses to add to
your web design contracts andthat's like a freebie.

(46:51):
That I have on my website andI'll give Josh the link so you
can link it in the show notes.
But that's a great guide becausethe contracts web centers will
want these sort of provisions intheir contracts in order to
make them shore them up to makesure that they're really great
for marketing and that theyreally protect you.

Josh Hall (47:08):
Yeah, and I would recommend everyone going back to
our previous interview.
That was episode 254 oncontracts, copyrights, and we
even talked about tax setupsthere too.
So that's still something Irefer back to quite a bit.
So, as always, and just awealth of information and help
you are.
Final question what?
What is your favorite legalwork for creatives If?

(47:31):
If you had to choose to helpwith, like a tax structure setup
or legal stuff, like you helpwith shannon, uh or or
trademarks, what is yourfavorite of the suite of
services that you offercreatives?

I kind of like doing it all.
I like working with differentpeople on different um on
different issues.
I think the trademarks doingthe trademark brand name check,
is such an easy thing fordesigners and a great
opportunity for them to upselland look like you're the expert
in this, because you are, and sobeing able to support designers

(48:04):
in that process would be supercool and that's why I'm.
That's why, after thisexperience with my cousin, I
really want to like make sureother designers know hey, this
is an upsell opportunity for youand a way for you to look real
good to my clients well, let metell you there's nothing cooler
than adding the old option totrademark tm next to a logo
either.

Josh Hall (48:24):
Uh, it's pretty fun.
I meant to ask you this earliercan somebody add tm to their
logo even if they haven'ttrademarked it yet, and they're
just, you know, consideringtrademarking?

It doesn't really do anything like it.
It sort of like gives otherpeople information that you are
in the process of trademarking,but it's neither here nor there.
Cool, it's really the uses, butthe USPQ is looking for Gotcha
Awesome.

Josh Hall (48:46):
And, as always, thank you for your time.
We'll have all this linked inthe show notes and then, gosh,
keep on doing what you're doing.
You are of so much value to uswho don't want to have anything
to do with the legalities, so Iunderstand that.
Thank you, thanks, josh, thankyou for your service.
You know people say that Thankyou for your service when
they're in the military.
I say and thank you for yourservice.

Anytime.

Josh Hall (49:09):
So again, a huge thanks to Anne, so excited to
get the news recently that WebDesigner Pro is officially
trademarked.
So you will be seeing thelittle copyright R symbol on the
logo here soon and again.
Whether you are interested inthis now or just want to know
what the process looks like formoving forward, I really hope
this conversation helps.
You can go to joshhallco slash398 to get all the links and the

(49:32):
resources.
That will have a fulltranscription and all the links
to connect with Ann as well.
So head over there, connectwith Ann If you have any legal
service issues or anything whenit comes to trademarks or
anything where you just don'thave a lawyer to turn to.
But you want to have somebodyin your corner who knows the
industry.

(49:52):
Ann is who I use and who Irecommend.
So again, joshhallco slash 398to connect and get all the
resources there.
So cheers, friends, and a bigthanks to Anne again for helping
me.
Trademark Web Designer Pro.
I hope she helps you as welland I hope this conversation
helps you as you look to build abusiness that you may want to
sell or just have pure ownershipof.
Stay subscribed, friends.

(50:12):
Some other good episodes arecoming very, very soon, like
some really good ones, so makesure you subscribe.
Cheers.

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398 - Trademarking Your Web Design Business with Ann Koppuzha

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