May 15, 2025 • 44 mins
In this episode, we talk with Ama Agyapong about how to build authentic relationships in the workplace and in other parts of life. She is a consultant, trainer and facilitator with over 15 years experience in human resources, including work with very large corporations as well as small- and medium-sized organizations. Ama Agyapong is the founder of Inclusion Enterprises.
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Ama Agyapong (00:07):
When we think about trust, we gotta ask ourselves, are we credible?
Are we reliable?
How do we communicate?
And, at the end of the day, whenI'm engaging with people, is there
a high level of self-orientation?
Like, is it all for my own self-interest?
Is it all for an ulteriormotive or is it genuine?
(00:31):
Is it for the betterment ofthat person or the group?
Because that makes ahuge, huge difference.
And if we can say yes to thosethings, that means we're pretty good
at building those relationships.
Sam Fuqua (00:44):
That's Ama Agyapong, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(01:05):
In this episode, we talk withAma Agyapong about how to build
authentic relationships in theworkplace and in other parts of life.
She is a consultant, trainer andfacilitator with over 15 years experience
in human resources, including workwith very large corporations as well as
(01:26):
small- and medium-sized organizations.
Ama Agyapong is the founderof Inclusion Enterprises.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:40):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:41):
And we're so pleased to have Ama Agyapong with
us for this conversation.
Welcome.
Hello.
Ama Agyapong (01:46):
Hi, Sam.
Hi Alexis.
Thank you for having me.
Sam Fuqua (01:50):
Well, to start with, your, uh, your handle, your nickname, uh, your
social media name is That Inclusion Lady.
So, I'm very curious how youcame to that, how you chose that.
Ama Agyapong (02:00):
Yeah.
Thank you for asking.
So, it was a, a mixture of looking atwhat's already out there, wanting to
really present as my authentic self,and prayer and meditation to be like,
what, what really resonates with meand the message I wanna put out there.
So, I've seen, you know, HR lady, I'veseen all of those different things,
(02:21):
but I said, what do I truly stand for?
And what do I want my community to feel?
And I wanted them to feel included.
I wanted them to feel seen,value, heard, understood.
And those are all, like, cornerstone,uh, definitions of inclusion.
And I'm a lady, so I was like, huh, ThatInclusion Lady, let's talk about it.
(02:44):
So, that's kind of howit, how it came about.
But it's really all aboutauthenticity and, and connection.
Alexis Miles (02:51):
You just mentioned community.
And this is a show aboutconflict and conflict resolution
and conflict transformation.
So, in your opinion, what is the value ofcommunity when we're talking about things
like conflict resolution and learning?
Ama Agyapong (03:09):
Yeah, it's such a good question.
I am a believer that conflict is good.
So, I think when you have conflicts, youcome to better forms of understanding with
each other, better forms of communication.
You walk away learning something.
But at the very foundation of conflict andresoluting that conflict is relationship.
(03:34):
And I think when you have arelationship with someone, there
is an inherent trust there.
And that trust is allowing youto see maybe my flaws, maybe my
imperfections, maybe some of myvulnerabilities and humility.
And I think you build that from acollectivist community approach to this
work, um, versus just looking out forme and very individualistic, it's also
(04:00):
looking at how my actions, how my wordsare impacting the community at hand.
And again, I think it boils down to trust.
Alexis Miles (04:10):
I have heard you talk about, on the one hand, community, on
the other hand, the inner work of DEI.
Can you talk about those two thingsand why they both are important?
Ama Agyapong (04:22):
Oh, Alexis.
Okay.
So, um, I was once that girl whobelieved in meritocracy, solely.
I believed in pull yourselfup from your bootstraps.
I believed in, because I came from aconservative black, middle class family.
My grandfather was a sharecropper,but he worked his way to building
(04:46):
a very successful lawn servicebusiness, and he was able to send
all five of his children to college.
And so in my mind I said, oh, ifmy granddaddy can do that, oh, if I
can accomplish coming from a singleparented household, why can't you?
And so, over the years when we talkabout that inner work, it first
(05:08):
started with understanding history.
So, when I would make comments like,"Oh well, of course I understand
gentrification," or "Why yourgenerations of family's been in the
projects." "Look at your projects."You know, from this very condescending
and judgmental perspective.
History first shut my mouth.
Well, you understood the, thestructural reasons and the systemic
(05:31):
reasons for certain things.
So, that was number one,a part of the inner work.
Number two, therapy, because it wasreally decoding and understanding
why I felt the need to compare myselfto someone else, and why I felt the
need to exemplify the superioritycomplex, thinking I'm better than.
(05:57):
And, and so therapy hashelped a lot with that.
But with therapy and reading andunderstanding history, where I was
able to delve in even more is whatmy unconscious biases are as a middle
class, heterosexual, cisgender blackwoman, and how my words and my actions
(06:18):
impact other people that aren't like me.
And so, that came with understanding whatsome of my privileges are, understanding
what some of my disadvantages are, whetherI wanna look at it like that or not.
I still believe in, you know, we havethe capacity to do the unthinkable.
I'm a woman of faith, so my faithhelps me a lot through that.
(06:40):
But those are some of the ways thatI have really talked, like, worked on
myself to then present to the worldwhat inner work could look like, even
though I still make a lot of mistakes.
But that recovery from themistakes is what the inner work
has helped with more than anything.
So, I hope I answered your question.
Alexis Miles (06:58):
Oh, absolutely.
Because in, in my experience,people sometimes are able to see mi,
microaggressions against them, but theyaren't able to see that they too commit
microaggressions against other people.
Ama Agyapong (07:13):
It starts with you.
I, I always say inclusion startswith I. So, for me to be inclusive to
someone else, and forgiving of theirflaws, and forgiving of their mistakes,
so then I can help my team want totry even more to have that growth
mindset, I gotta have that with myself.
I can't be critical of myselfevery time I make a mistake.
(07:34):
I, I can't be having negativelanguage towards myself because
of certain aspects of me.
Like it starts with I, and once I'mmore inclusive to myself, then I can
start building that empathy muscleto be more inclusive towards others.
So yeah, you're gonna hear me talk a lotabout myself because I had to start with
the inner work with myself, with my kidto see what's around me, how do I operate,
(07:58):
challenge different thoughts and notionsto then be able to do it for someone else.
Sam Fuqua (08:05):
This might be a good place to jump in with the question we ask,
uh, most of our guests, which is totell us about a sideways moment, you
know, building on the title of thepodcast, a moment in your life where
things got off track, and what happened?
What did you learn?
How did you deal with it?
Ama Agyapong (08:23):
Okay.
I am gonna, I'm gonna answerthis in two ways, okay?
So I'm gonna give two examples.
This ex, first example wasthe catalyst to my inner work.
This was at the beginning of my career.
I was a brand new leader.
I had just come fromthe financial industry.
I had just come out of grad school,recruited straight outta grad school.
(08:44):
So, going back to the superioritycomplex, you could tell me nothing.
Okay.
Like, I thought I was that girl.
Um, and so I go in, first time havingleadership experience taking over a
team of about 25, 30 people, I think.
It was less than 50.
And, I got my orders, let's go.
Their whole thing was wehave bottom performers.
We need you to performance managethem out because it's impacting our
(09:06):
margins, it's impact, so, all numbers,numbers, numbers, reports, basket
size, all of these other things.
This is for a Fortune 50 retailer.
Great, I got it.
I'm goal oriented.
Let's go.
I didn't spend timegetting to know my team.
I didn't spend timegetting to know strengths.
I didn't spend time buildingrelationships or trying to seem relatable.
I went in barking orders.
(09:26):
And not only was I barking orders,I again was barking orders from a
superiority complex saying, forgetyour institutional knowledge.
I have all this book smarts.
You need to listen to me.
Not understanding the obstacles thatthey faced, any of those things.
So my thing was, no excuses.
If you have a problem, you can leave.
That was my approachwithout observing anything.
(09:48):
And, though we made a little bit ofprogress, we didn't make much because our
turnover was high, and then our engagementsurveys were at an all time low.
And by the way, I was speaking topeople, by the way I was cutting
people off, by the way I was justcompletely disregarding who they were
as individuals and only looking at itas a transactional relationship, you
(10:10):
come here to get a job, my responseis you getting a paycheck, right?
I had to have a focus group aboutme in front of me with the entire
team, and it was awful, Sam.
I mean, I heard how I made people feel.
I heard how my actions landed,and again, I was sitting there
(10:30):
completely obsessed with my intent.
My intent was we have abusiness bottom line to impact.
That's it.
I'm not here to make friends.
I'm here to do business, right?
Complete fallacy.
And so from that, that was thecatalyst to saying, okay, either
I'm gonna lose my job or I gottafigure this leadership thing out.
And that is what started the inner work.
(10:52):
Now, one of the interactions that aremost memorable that I've had during that
time before the focus group about howmuch I sucked was, I had a conversation
with a parent and she was late.
Continuous, not continuously, but morethan I preferred because of childcare
issues and because her child was sick.
So, she would have to leave,take the child to the doctor,
(11:14):
like it was a, a sickly child.
And come, now I realize thatthe child had had a disability,
didn't realize that then, but Iwas just very callous to her, Sam.
I was like, well, what can you,like, what can you figure out
though 'cause you have a job to do.
Completely disregarding the child.
She got upset.
Stormed out the office.
(11:35):
Reported me.
And now that I'm a parent that hashad to take time off, 'cause I wasn't
one then, now that I'm a parent that'shad to take time off, now that I'm a
parent that is recently divorced anda single mom, now that I'm a parent
that understands how much you investin your child, I'm like, wow, I was
completely, tone deaf is not the rightterm anymore, but just completely out
(11:59):
of the loop of being a human being.
So, I would say those two.
I know it was a long answer, butthose two, um, are the most memorable.
And one of the two was the catalystto Ama becoming That Inclusion Lady.
Sam Fuqua (12:14):
That idea of moving beyond the transactional relationship, uh,
as a manager or as a, a colleague,how do you know how far to go?
Because it, in my experience,it's different for different
people in a workplace.
Some people it is more like, I'mhere for the job, I'm going home.
You know, they still want to get along,but other people need more connection.
(12:35):
I don't know how you as an HRmanager and consultant address the,
potentially the different needsof, of people in, in that regard.
Ama Agyapong (12:44):
Yes.
So, I think if you havea question, you ask.
And so, one of the questions thatleaders often don't ask is, how
do you like to receive feedback?
How often do you want to connect with me?
When you are having those conversations,I think it's important to at least
start off with having a set ofquestions that you ask everyone
(13:05):
because you're gathering data.
So, I think it's importantto start with data and, and
then you follow with passion.
And so, some of the questions I tellleaders to ask are things like, you
know, tell me something about yourselfthat I can't read on a resume.
If you were to win the lottery and workwas not a concern, bills were not a
(13:30):
concern, what would you do for a living?
You know, what, what questions doyou think people would ask you more?
Like, these are questions that youcan ask anyone regardless of their
comfort level of how deep they wannago to just start getting information.
Once you get that information, I thinkit's important to study your team.
(13:52):
So, spend time with thempossibly doing what they do.
Whether it's they're teaching yousomething because again, people love
to talk about themselves and they lovewhen you're curious about what they do,
and you can highlight their strengths.
Spend time allowing them toteach you something where you're
not always the one teaching.
(14:13):
I think another thing is when I say studyyour person, look at the little things.
So, do they have something on theirwall that seems important to them?
Do you overhear them talkingabout a soccer game or something
dealing with their family?
When you listen and then you followup, those little pieces are making
(14:34):
deposits in the proverbial bank andbuilding those relationships, where
you're saying, I care about you as aperson, not only your output as a person.
Does that answer your question?
Sam Fuqua (14:47):
Yeah, it does, and it's really smart, I think, advice.
Ama Agyapong (14:50):
But it's slow, so it's not immediate.
A lot of, you know, a lot of leaders justwant, oh, I wanna build a relationship
in a week because we have a lot of stuffto do, and that's not always how it goes.
It really starts with genuinely wanting toget to know someone, listening, and asking
open-ended questions through curiosity.
Sam Fuqua (15:11):
And it takes time, as you said.
Ama Agyapong (15:12):
Yes.
Yes it does.
Alexis Miles (15:16):
Something you just mentioned just makes me think of the
importance of, of relationship building.
It sounds like you'resaying that's paramount.
Without that, nothing.
Ama Agyapong (15:28):
Without that, nothing.
Like, how are they gonna trust you withtheir flaws, if there's no relationship?
How are they gonna trust yourintent in the moments we need
grace, if there is no relationship?
And if you're scared of them because ofhow they present or some, some certain
identity or you know, some preconceivednotion, how are you going to truly build
(15:52):
a relationship, see their strengthsand see their unlimited potential?
Because that's what most people want.
They just want you to seetheir unlimited potential.
That's why like Harvard Business Reviewwrote about building trust and having
high expectations, and challenginggoals is a part of it because it's
saying, "Hey, I see how great you areand maybe some of these things get in
the way." But you can't start havinga conversation about what gets in the
(16:14):
way without building a relationship.
And surprising, Alexis, alot of people don't know how
to do that in the workplace.
They think it's either, back toyour question, Sam, they think
it's either all business or I'mtelling you all my business.
Like, and there is an in between,but again, people need to learn that
skillset of building relationships,which is why I teach it.
(16:35):
And you would think it's commonsense, but, but it ain't so common.
Alexis Miles (16:39):
In terms of building relationships, how do you do that in
an environment where there's a lot ofdiversity, a lot of different identities?
Ama Agyapong (16:50):
I think this is gonna sound really simple, however, what has worked
for me is listening more than I speak.
And asking genuine, open-ended questions.
And why I say genuine is becausesometimes I hear people ask open-ended
questions with a intended response inmind, and that's just disingenuous.
(17:15):
So, I think it's, one, doing your ownresearch because it's not their job to
teach you everything about their cultureand their history and all of those things.
So, doing your own research.
I think it's being humble enough toadmit when you don't know something
or when you do make a mistake.
(17:37):
And if you're not always trying tobe right, and you listen more than
you speak, I, I think relationshipsnaturally just start to build,
especially through curiosity.
If you're genuinely interestedin why a person does something or
what their family does when theycelebrate certain things, or you're
(17:57):
asking questions about some of thedifferences, but then you also highlight
and notice some of the similarities.
And, and you truly wanna know whypeople operate the way in which they
do, because different is in deficit.
So, if you start off saying, differenceis amazing and I wanna celebrate
it, it just has a, a differentperspective and tone and it works.
(18:18):
I've seen it, I've taught it,I've, it, over and over again.
It, it really does work when youare building those relationships
and you're doing it through wantinga transformational connection
versus a transactional one.
Alexis Miles (18:32):
So Ama, what you're saying reminds me of race
and gender in the workplace.
And, people find it hard to talk aboutrace and gender in the workplace.
So number one, why do we find thosetwo things so hard to talk about?
And then number two, what canwe do to start bringing those
(18:55):
conversations to the table withcuriosity as opposed to defensiveness?
Ama Agyapong (19:01):
Ooh, that's a good question.
And it's, it's a loaded question.
So the first thing is, why dopeople struggle talking about race?
And I wanna go with this quote I heard, Iread in a book called Disruptive Thinking
by T.D. Jakes, and he says, "I can't geta PhD without learning about you, but you
(19:26):
can get a PhD without learning about me.
And so when we think about what's taught,what's emphasized, what's celebrated
from childhood, oftentimes it's not race.
Oftentimes we are taught to shy away fromrace." I'll never forget, I was in the
grocery store and it was a little girlwith her mom and, little white girl,
(19:50):
and she said, "Mommy, look, a browngirl." Because I was in a town that
didn't have a lot of black people andshe was excited and I was cracking up.
I'm like, I'm rather brown.
Absolutely right.
But the mom was mortified.
Mortified.
And you, she turned red.
She tried to, you know, hush her child up.
She just kept going.
(20:10):
And think about the type of messagethat sends to that young child.
So, from, to maybe three orfour from that very young age,
you're telling this person, raceis not something we talk about.
Actually, because of my negativereinforcement, race is a bad thing.
And so, I think it starts there.
American, America has a lot ofdemons when it comes to race.
(20:30):
We haven't truly rectified it,and we haven't really taught it.
And because of that, there's afear when we talk about race,
and I think it starts there.
I think we've gotten alittle better with gender.
But it's still a lot ofparity there as well.
And then your second questionwas, what are some of the things
we can do in the workplace?
(20:51):
Is that correct?
Alexis Miles (20:53):
That's right.
How, how can we just navigatein the workplace when we have
those kinds of differences?
Ama Agyapong (20:58):
Yeah, so I think it starts with understanding history, and truly
drawing connections on how oppressionfrom the past impacts the present.
And I think that is adisconnect for a lot of people.
Some people might even understandhistory, but they say that's the past.
So, why can't we just move forward?
Civil Rights Act of 1964.
(21:20):
Like we, we should be past that.
Where we're not realizinggenerational trauma and how
it's passed through genetically.
We're not realizing, perfect example, mygreat grandmother died at 103 in 2018.
Her parents were slaves.
Think about that.
My grandmother, who's 91 years old,that I talked to him every other day,
(21:43):
needed a pass to get, get on South Beach.
I'm from Miami.
A, a, a working permitto get on South Beach.
I remember hearing stories about theonly beach in all of South Florida
that black people could be on.
We don't think about howthat impacts the present.
And because of that, it makes racehard to talk about because oftentimes
(22:04):
responses are denying, discrediting,ignoring, minimizing, and that just
starts to build more and more of a rift.
And so, what we can do in the workplaceis, one, know your history and
understand the impacts of current day.
Another thing we can do is again, leadwith curiosity in asking questions.
(22:25):
And finally, think about your privilege.
And what I mean by that is that whenyou understand your privilege, then
you can offer some type of empathy.
Here's another example.
My brother and I grew up doing sports.
We have pretty good genetics.
Our, our, my parents are fit.
And though we eat well and we workout, 50 percent of that is genetics.
(22:50):
Even if we didn't eat well or workout, we would still be kind of fit.
And so, one day he made a comment aboutfat people because we have weight biases,
and he was saying it from a very callousperspective, and because I have done
some of the inner work, I was like, doyou understand our privilege though?
We don't know what it's liketo have certain allergies.
We don't know what it'slike to have thyroid issues.
(23:11):
We don't know what it's like to havecertain genetics in us and have all
these ailments that impact our weight.
Like we don't know what that feels like.
So though we work hard, we can'tdiscredit our hard work, we also
need to acknowledge our privilege tomaybe have empathy for someone else.
That's just an examplewhen it comes to weight.
So, think about that, what that cando if we think about the same thing
(23:33):
through race, through gender, throughdisability, through sexual orientation
and gender identity, because each one ofthose identities has a set of experiences
that maybe we don't understand or know.
Alexis Miles (23:47):
Thank you for that response.
And I really appreciate you givinga personal example because I think
frequently people think experts in thefield like you, people who are highly
educated, have it all together, you know.
They have no issues.
They have it all together.
And it's very helpful to know that,oh, we all share the same struggles.
(24:12):
We might have different approaches todealing with them, but we're all human.
We all share the same struggles.
Joys and sorrows.
Ama Agyapong (24:19):
Yes.
Oh, I love the way you said that.
Absolutely.
Alexis Miles (24:23):
What do you do when you are in a situation, having a conversation,
in the interaction, your heart startracing, you feel the blood rush to your
face, hands start trembling a littlebit, and you, you've been hijacked.
Um, what can a person do in thatmoment when having a conversation about
race or disability or anything that,that causes that kind of reaction?
Ama Agyapong (24:48):
Oh yes.
So, one really good thing isyou gotta know your triggers.
So, you, you mentioned severalthings, Alexis, you were like,
your heart starts racing.
You know, your face might become flushed.
Your, your mind, you might feel like aheartbeat almost in your, in your temples.
Like, people don't realize that thatis your body responding to a stress
(25:09):
and anxiety to that amygdala hijack.
So, first is understanding what,how does my body respond when
I'm triggered and getting upset?
That's number one.
Number two is it's okayto say how you're feeling.
And some of these things are sosimple, but you can say, "I'm
starting to get upset right now.
I'm feeling it.
(25:30):
I'm feeling it, and I, I don'twanna derail this conversation.
Can we take a break?
And I promise we can get back to this'cause I wanna hear what you have to say.
It's important, but I also don'twanna get in the way of your
words." And then take a break.
Right?
But oftentimes we want toignore how we're feeling.
I, I've, I've experienced this becauselately I've been getting real mad.
(25:54):
Every time I watch thenews, I'm pissed off.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Are we saying, these people don't exist?
These experiences don't exist?
And I've had people to poach conversationsthat have a different opinion than me.
And I love having conversations thatare a different opinion than mine, as
long as it's not steeped in homophobiaor xenophobia or racism or sexism.
(26:16):
Right?
So, like, my oppression can't be,you are just misunderstanding.
So, I've had to be like, you knowwhat, I value what you're saying,
but I'm not hearing it right now.
My emotions are getting in the way.
So, can we, can we take a pausebecause I don't, I don't want
this conversation to go left.
And that's it.
Alexis Miles (26:37):
And when you take that pause, what do you do during the pause?
What are you doing?
Ama Agyapong (26:42):
Oh, that's a good question.
Oh, you ask good questions.
I am breathing.
I might pick up my Bibleand read a scripture.
I might listen to music.
I might call a friend, likean accountability partner who
challenges me because sometimesit might be my own stuff.
Not necessarily theirs.
And so, I need to process through that.
(27:03):
And so when I take a beat, it mightneed to be a quick beat where I just
go take some deep breaths, take a walk.
I love the sun 'cause it gives thevitamin D to restore the energy.
Science behind that.
Or sometimes I gotta take a couple days.
I typically don't, my beat's notlonger than 48, 48 hours because
that kind of just loses the moment.
But the one thing I always do, so afterI do that, after I breathe, read, call
(27:28):
an accountability partner and justlisten to music, I always circle back.
Because if not, it is sending the signaland it's a strong statement, but it's
sending the signal that they don't matter.
Their words don't matter.
It's almost like abandonment in themoment, and I never want that to happen.
So I always circle back.
(27:49):
Is it still good that we talk about this?
This is what was happening with me.
I'm just transparent.
I'm, I'm ready to havethis conversation again.
And if they don't wanna talk, that's fine.
I've done my part.
Alexis Miles (27:59):
So it's all again, and once again, it's all about relationship
building again, and, and trust.
Ama Agyapong (28:06):
It's relationships and trust.
And speaking of relationships and trust,you know, when we think about trust, we
gotta ask ourselves, are we credible?
Are we reliable?
How do we communicate?
And, at the end of the day, whenI'm engaging with people, is there
(28:26):
a high level of self-orientation?
Like, is it all for my own self-interest?
Is it all for an ulteriormotive or is it genuine?
Is it for the betterment ofthat person or the group?
Because that makes ahuge, huge difference.
And if we can say yes to thosethings, that means we're pretty good
at building those relationships.
(28:47):
But if we look at that and we'resaying, no, I'm actually not
credible, or, no, I'm not reliable.
My words don't align with my actions.
I don't do what I say.
Okay, great.
Now you know what you need to work on.
Or, I'm super selfish and every timeI'm doing something or talking to
someone, it's all a part of this plan.
It's all calculated.
If that's who you areas a person, love you.
(29:08):
I love that for you.
Do, do your thing, boo.
But if you want to build realrelationships where people trust you
and trust what you say and know youhave their best interest at heart,
that's something you gotta work on.
Charles Green has a trust equation,and I love the trust equation because
it makes it very, very tangible.
What can I work on?
What can build trust?
(29:30):
And it's based on science anddifferent studies and how the
brain oxytocin gets released.
And so, it's brilliant.
But after you learn this equation,going back to the practical aspect
of it, we gotta think, what do Ineed to do with this information?
And where's my gap?
And that's how we do it.
Sam Fuqua (29:47):
Ama, can you give us some ideas for if we're trying to build trust,
not on a supervisor, uh, supervisee,but a peer level colleague in a
workplace, someone who comes from a verydifferent background than ourselves.
How do we do that in a way that'snot, uh, where we can avoid putting
our foot in it or microaggressing?
Ama Agyapong (30:10):
I wanna start with the person with, like, a different identity.
I, I think it's really important to askyourself, would I build a relationship,
like, as you're building what you thinkis a relationship with that person?
Am I approaching this the sameway I would approach someone that
I look at as similar to myself?
Someone I respect the same,someone I think and admire.
Um, someone that I feel comes from a,a same, similar background as I do.
(30:34):
And why I say that is because that'stypically the most genuine level
of trying to connect with someone.
And so, I would say start there.
When I say start there, it canbe something really practical.
Like, if you, if it's a colleague andyou're constantly on Zoom meetings,
right, and they say something thatyou actually think is important,
(30:54):
like, send them a, a DM, "Hey, thatwas a great idea. Thanks for raising
that." Or, you notice, you know, youstart to see patterns and trends.
Going back to observing,listening more than you talk, and
acknowledging someone's brilliance.
Say that to them.
"Hey, our last three meetings, you havereally been brilliant in this aspect.
(31:16):
Would you wanna connect over lunch?" Like,that takes vulnerability because they can
say no and then you feel rejected, right?
But the gamble is so great.
It can be things like asking someoneif they need help with something in the
workplace, because oftentimes it's, thisseems very, uh, competition focused.
It can be something like even with yourleader, because they're human beings too.
(31:40):
You can ask how I can support you.
Right?
And so those are very practicalways we can start just reaching
out, reaching out to say, I am here.
I'm here to connect.
When they are different than you, whenyou start the conversation off and
you're treating them as you would someonethat's like yourself, because it's, it
is interesting, there's a, a, a dualsided to having different identities.
(32:04):
We want to be seen as different, butwe also wanna be treated the same.
Right?
It's, it's very, very interesting.
We wanna be celebrated for ourdifferences, but we also want to be
looked at for our group identity.
And so, I think it starts off withfinding maybe some similarities
and when you notice differences,ask questions about it.
Um, and not asking questionsfrom a perspective of, I want you
(32:25):
to teach me about your culture,but from the perspective of I
want you to teach me about you.
And so, an example could be I used to havea, a team full of, um, people from the
middle, Middle East and North Africa, andthey all celebrated Ramadan quite a bit.
Well, I had a general knowledge of whatRamadan was and how they celebrate Eid
(32:45):
at the end, and I made accommodations.
So, it was just aneasier 30 days for them.
But I also wanted to know like, howdo you celebrate it with your family?
What are some of your family traditions?
How do, how, what does it mean to you?
And so again, understanding howthat person has a group identity,
but then starting to drill downlower in that iceberg to, to also
(33:09):
know who they are as individuals.
But that piece takes time 'cause goingback to the relationship and the trust,
you can't feel entitled to trust.
We are outta understand it builds.
But it builds first by, by, Ithink, finding similarities.
Sam Fuqua (33:25):
You know, I used to be so generic and frankly stereotypical,
where if it was a guy, I'd justtalk about sports, you know.
It was an attempt to connect, but a very,uh, the sort of the safest, blandest way.
Ama Agyapong (33:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, you know what though, Sam, Ithink starting off that way, great.
Right?
You all are trying to build arelationship, but at some point
we gotta go past the stereotype.
At some point we gotta go alittle bit beneath the surface.
Um, and so to your point, it was verybland, very generic, which that's
where people feel comfortable at first.
(34:02):
But then it's about, okay, how can I takethis to another level and get to know this
individual that's in front of me, not thisindividual that's representing a group.
Alexis Miles (34:12):
You just raised something, Ama, discomfort.
And, I have heard you say you have toget comfortable with being uncomfortable.
So, when we feel uncomfortable,when we're trying to go beyond the
superficial and, you know, scared,am I gonna say the wrong thing?
Am I gonna ask the wrong question?
(34:33):
What if I look stupid?
You know, what if they think I'm nosy?
That's discomfort, uh, that'suncomfortable to feel like that and to
have those thoughts running through.
So, how does a person learn to becomfortable being uncomfortable?
Ama Agyapong (34:49):
Repetition.
You, you just gotta keep doing it.
It starts with knowing that yourworldview isn't the only worldview.
And your experience isn'tthe universal experience.
And so, once you get past that, right,an example is an able-bodied experience
(35:11):
versus someone who has a disability.
Those are two verydifferent lived experiences.
And, even me sitting here saying,able-bodied versus, I'm like,
am I supposed to say that?
I don't know.
So, there is discomfort evenmentioning that because that for me
is, is the group I've had the leastamount of exposure to, and that's
(35:32):
where I've had to do the most work.
But it's repetition.
So, the more I put myself in thosesituations to have to ask a question
or to not know, because I've beenknowing a lot of things, Alexis, but
what are the moments I don't know?
I gotta put myself in those situationsand then when my brain is like,
shut down, don't say anything.
(35:52):
They're gonna think you're dumb.
Nope, I am not.
I'm gonna challenge that thought andI'm gonna ask an open-ended question.
I'm going to ask, how do youexperience that in your shoes,
right, in your worldview?
I'm gonna ask those questions.
With maybe the fear ofcoming off a certain way.
(36:13):
But again, I'm making it about me if Ido that instead of making it about them.
So, it's repetition.
Reprogramming yourself in those moments.
You have to pay attention to yourbody, you know what's going on and
say, nope, this is what I'm gonna do.
Usually responding with anopen-ended, genuine question.
You hear me say that a lot.
(36:33):
And then making it about that person.
I think those four things reallyhelps to start feeling comfortable
in the discomfort and knowing Imight get corrected right now.
And then I've learned something.
And then I can keep going.
Alexis Miles (36:50):
So, it sounds like you're saying that kind of authenticity,
the openness, uh, willingness tofeel uncomfortable is what it takes
to learn and grow and develop an,develop an authentic relationship.
Ama Agyapong (37:04):
Yes, it does.
In release.
And when you just said that, itmade me think of, it comes with
releasing this notion of perfectionbecause especially women struggle
with this idea of perfection.
I have to always be right.
I have to always have it together.
I have to always come off a certain way.
I have to always be, andno, actually you don't.
(37:25):
You have to always be you.
Because nobody does youbetter than you, right?
And a part of being youis getting corrected.
A part of being you is being authentic,being vulnerable, not knowing,
and failing fast, failing forward,failing and getting better, failing
(37:46):
and learning, failing and sharing.
And not sharing so youcan condemn someone else.
Oh, I learned not to say this wordtoday, so how dare you say that now.
No, no, no, no, no.
You were just not perfectat that two days ago.
Right?
And so sharing to say, thiswas my lived experience.
Hopefully it can help youbecause this helped me.
That it, it really doesstart, start with that.
(38:07):
Being open and letting, just lettinggo of per, perfection, which is
just a notion that's baked intothe culture and society we live in.
Alexis Miles (38:19):
I'm curious, Ama, it, do you have anything that you would just like to
leave with people that you think it's justimportant for people to, to have ratting
around in their minds and in their heartsso that they can approach conflict and
relationship building with more skill?
Ama Agyapong (38:39):
Yes.
I think one, we have to knowfeedback, conflict, communication,
like that's an art and a science.
And it's an art and a science wedon't come to this world knowing.
And so, just like we study how to be adoctor, how to be a leader, how to be a
lawyer, a lot of us study how to be a mom,we also need to study how to communicate,
(39:02):
how to navigate conflict, how to provideand receive, and receive, feedback
because that is an art and a science.
So it's a skillset we have to build.
The other thing I'm going to say is,and I've learned this from motherhood,
and I know we talk a lot about intentversus impact, but it's very different
when you're living it in the moment.
(39:22):
So, example, um, we had justcome home from wrestling.
I'm cooking dinner, my son knows,he's six, give yourself a bath.
We have this whole routine going.
I still hear the water running.
I'm like, "Hey, have you, have you startedbathing yourself?" He's like, "No."
So I get mad, the food's on the stove.
I come in with a attitudeand I, he's like, "I got it.
I got it, mommy.
(39:43):
Now I got it.
I, I, I, I, I'm almost done." And I'mlike, "No." And I grabbed the, the,
the rag and I start giving him a bath.
And he starts bawling, crying.
And I'm like, yo, like, whatis wrong with you right now?
Like, I'm just, you're crying becausemommy's giving you a bath, right?
And so he, I finish, give him his towel,go get dressed, go check on the food.
(40:04):
Like everything is super, super rushed.
'Cause typically, our biastakes over when we rush.
But, when I'm making sure he hasointment on his skin and all this other
stuff, something told me to pause.
And I paused, and I asked him, I waslike, "When mommy gave you a bath,
why, why, why did you start crying?
Like, what was happening for you inthat moment?" He said, "You weren't
(40:28):
listening to me." I said, "Okay.
And when mommy doesn't listen toyou, how does that make you feel?"
"It makes me feel sad." "Okay.
Why does it make you feel sad?""Because I told you that I had it.
And when you didn't believe me, you didn'tbelieve me, you didn't listen, and it
made me feel like you didn't trust me."
(40:50):
So, in that moment, Alexisand Sam, I had a choice.
I had a choice to completely minimize,belittle, disregard what he was saying
because I knew what my intent was.
My intent was we just left wrestling,and I gotta get you fed, and you gotta
go to bed on time so you can havea great day the next day at school.
That's my intent.
I'm being a good mom.
That's the intent.
Or, I can sit there and listen tothe impact and acknowledge that.
(41:14):
Because acknowledging the impact is sowinga seed of trust that's gonna flourish
into this beautiful plant that I amgoing to benefit from the fruit of later.
And my friends, that iswhat I wanna leave you with.
In those moments when you wannabe wrapped up in what your intent
is in the moment, think about whatseeds do I need to plant today?
(41:36):
What seeds of trust, what seeds ofconnection, what seeds of relationship
building do I need to connect today?
'Cause I'm focused on them and not me tobuild this plant that's going to yield
fruit that we both can benefit from later.
So, that is what I willleave you all with.
Sam Fuqua (41:53):
Ama Agyapong, thank you very much for this conversation.
Really valuable.
We so grateful for your time.
Ama Agyapong (42:01):
Thank you.
Likewise.
Your brilliant minds, brilliant questions.
Just thank you for this space andtrusting me with your audience.
Sam Fuqua (42:09):
Ama Agyapong is a human resources and diversity
consultant, trainer and facilitator.
She's the founder of Inclusion Enterprisesand that's where you can find her on
the web at inclusionenterprises.org.
(42:31):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
(42:53):
And, we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
(43:14):
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
(43:34):
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
When we think about trust, we gotta ask ourselves, are we credible?
Are we reliable?
How do we communicate?
And, at the end of the day, whenI'm engaging with people, is there
a high level of self-orientation?
Like, is it all for my own self-interest?
Is it all for an ulteriormotive or is it genuine?
(00:31):
Is it for the betterment ofthat person or the group?
Because that makes ahuge, huge difference.
And if we can say yes to thosethings, that means we're pretty good
at building those relationships.
Sam Fuqua (00:44):
That's Ama Agyapong, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(01:05):
In this episode, we talk withAma Agyapong about how to build
authentic relationships in theworkplace and in other parts of life.
She is a consultant, trainer andfacilitator with over 15 years experience
in human resources, including workwith very large corporations as well as
(01:26):
small- and medium-sized organizations.
Ama Agyapong is the founderof Inclusion Enterprises.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:40):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:41):
And we're so pleased to have Ama Agyapong with
us for this conversation.
Welcome.
Hello.
Ama Agyapong (01:46):
Hi, Sam.
Hi Alexis.
Thank you for having me.
Sam Fuqua (01:50):
Well, to start with, your, uh, your handle, your nickname, uh, your
social media name is That Inclusion Lady.
So, I'm very curious how youcame to that, how you chose that.
Ama Agyapong (02:00):
Yeah.
Thank you for asking.
So, it was a, a mixture of looking atwhat's already out there, wanting to
really present as my authentic self,and prayer and meditation to be like,
what, what really resonates with meand the message I wanna put out there.
So, I've seen, you know, HR lady, I'veseen all of those different things,
(02:21):
but I said, what do I truly stand for?
And what do I want my community to feel?
And I wanted them to feel included.
I wanted them to feel seen,value, heard, understood.
And those are all, like, cornerstone,uh, definitions of inclusion.
And I'm a lady, so I was like, huh, ThatInclusion Lady, let's talk about it.
(02:44):
So, that's kind of howit, how it came about.
But it's really all aboutauthenticity and, and connection.
Alexis Miles (02:51):
You just mentioned community.
And this is a show aboutconflict and conflict resolution
and conflict transformation.
So, in your opinion, what is the value ofcommunity when we're talking about things
like conflict resolution and learning?
Ama Agyapong (03:09):
Yeah, it's such a good question.
I am a believer that conflict is good.
So, I think when you have conflicts, youcome to better forms of understanding with
each other, better forms of communication.
You walk away learning something.
But at the very foundation of conflict andresoluting that conflict is relationship.
(03:34):
And I think when you have arelationship with someone, there
is an inherent trust there.
And that trust is allowing youto see maybe my flaws, maybe my
imperfections, maybe some of myvulnerabilities and humility.
And I think you build that from acollectivist community approach to this
work, um, versus just looking out forme and very individualistic, it's also
(04:00):
looking at how my actions, how my wordsare impacting the community at hand.
And again, I think it boils down to trust.
Alexis Miles (04:10):
I have heard you talk about, on the one hand, community, on
the other hand, the inner work of DEI.
Can you talk about those two thingsand why they both are important?
Ama Agyapong (04:22):
Oh, Alexis.
Okay.
So, um, I was once that girl whobelieved in meritocracy, solely.
I believed in pull yourselfup from your bootstraps.
I believed in, because I came from aconservative black, middle class family.
My grandfather was a sharecropper,but he worked his way to building
(04:46):
a very successful lawn servicebusiness, and he was able to send
all five of his children to college.
And so in my mind I said, oh, ifmy granddaddy can do that, oh, if I
can accomplish coming from a singleparented household, why can't you?
And so, over the years when we talkabout that inner work, it first
(05:08):
started with understanding history.
So, when I would make comments like,"Oh well, of course I understand
gentrification," or "Why yourgenerations of family's been in the
projects." "Look at your projects."You know, from this very condescending
and judgmental perspective.
History first shut my mouth.
Well, you understood the, thestructural reasons and the systemic
(05:31):
reasons for certain things.
So, that was number one,a part of the inner work.
Number two, therapy, because it wasreally decoding and understanding
why I felt the need to compare myselfto someone else, and why I felt the
need to exemplify the superioritycomplex, thinking I'm better than.
(05:57):
And, and so therapy hashelped a lot with that.
But with therapy and reading andunderstanding history, where I was
able to delve in even more is whatmy unconscious biases are as a middle
class, heterosexual, cisgender blackwoman, and how my words and my actions
(06:18):
impact other people that aren't like me.
And so, that came with understanding whatsome of my privileges are, understanding
what some of my disadvantages are, whetherI wanna look at it like that or not.
I still believe in, you know, we havethe capacity to do the unthinkable.
I'm a woman of faith, so my faithhelps me a lot through that.
(06:40):
But those are some of the ways thatI have really talked, like, worked on
myself to then present to the worldwhat inner work could look like, even
though I still make a lot of mistakes.
But that recovery from themistakes is what the inner work
has helped with more than anything.
So, I hope I answered your question.
Alexis Miles (06:58):
Oh, absolutely.
Because in, in my experience,people sometimes are able to see mi,
microaggressions against them, but theyaren't able to see that they too commit
microaggressions against other people.
Ama Agyapong (07:13):
It starts with you.
I, I always say inclusion startswith I. So, for me to be inclusive to
someone else, and forgiving of theirflaws, and forgiving of their mistakes,
so then I can help my team want totry even more to have that growth
mindset, I gotta have that with myself.
I can't be critical of myselfevery time I make a mistake.
(07:34):
I, I can't be having negativelanguage towards myself because
of certain aspects of me.
Like it starts with I, and once I'mmore inclusive to myself, then I can
start building that empathy muscleto be more inclusive towards others.
So yeah, you're gonna hear me talk a lotabout myself because I had to start with
the inner work with myself, with my kidto see what's around me, how do I operate,
(07:58):
challenge different thoughts and notionsto then be able to do it for someone else.
Sam Fuqua (08:05):
This might be a good place to jump in with the question we ask,
uh, most of our guests, which is totell us about a sideways moment, you
know, building on the title of thepodcast, a moment in your life where
things got off track, and what happened?
What did you learn?
How did you deal with it?
Ama Agyapong (08:23):
Okay.
I am gonna, I'm gonna answerthis in two ways, okay?
So I'm gonna give two examples.
This ex, first example wasthe catalyst to my inner work.
This was at the beginning of my career.
I was a brand new leader.
I had just come fromthe financial industry.
I had just come out of grad school,recruited straight outta grad school.
(08:44):
So, going back to the superioritycomplex, you could tell me nothing.
Okay.
Like, I thought I was that girl.
Um, and so I go in, first time havingleadership experience taking over a
team of about 25, 30 people, I think.
It was less than 50.
And, I got my orders, let's go.
Their whole thing was wehave bottom performers.
We need you to performance managethem out because it's impacting our
(09:06):
margins, it's impact, so, all numbers,numbers, numbers, reports, basket
size, all of these other things.
This is for a Fortune 50 retailer.
Great, I got it.
I'm goal oriented.
Let's go.
I didn't spend timegetting to know my team.
I didn't spend timegetting to know strengths.
I didn't spend time buildingrelationships or trying to seem relatable.
I went in barking orders.
(09:26):
And not only was I barking orders,I again was barking orders from a
superiority complex saying, forgetyour institutional knowledge.
I have all this book smarts.
You need to listen to me.
Not understanding the obstacles thatthey faced, any of those things.
So my thing was, no excuses.
If you have a problem, you can leave.
That was my approachwithout observing anything.
(09:48):
And, though we made a little bit ofprogress, we didn't make much because our
turnover was high, and then our engagementsurveys were at an all time low.
And by the way, I was speaking topeople, by the way I was cutting
people off, by the way I was justcompletely disregarding who they were
as individuals and only looking at itas a transactional relationship, you
(10:10):
come here to get a job, my responseis you getting a paycheck, right?
I had to have a focus group aboutme in front of me with the entire
team, and it was awful, Sam.
I mean, I heard how I made people feel.
I heard how my actions landed,and again, I was sitting there
(10:30):
completely obsessed with my intent.
My intent was we have abusiness bottom line to impact.
That's it.
I'm not here to make friends.
I'm here to do business, right?
Complete fallacy.
And so from that, that was thecatalyst to saying, okay, either
I'm gonna lose my job or I gottafigure this leadership thing out.
And that is what started the inner work.
(10:52):
Now, one of the interactions that aremost memorable that I've had during that
time before the focus group about howmuch I sucked was, I had a conversation
with a parent and she was late.
Continuous, not continuously, but morethan I preferred because of childcare
issues and because her child was sick.
So, she would have to leave,take the child to the doctor,
(11:14):
like it was a, a sickly child.
And come, now I realize thatthe child had had a disability,
didn't realize that then, but Iwas just very callous to her, Sam.
I was like, well, what can you,like, what can you figure out
though 'cause you have a job to do.
Completely disregarding the child.
She got upset.
Stormed out the office.
(11:35):
Reported me.
And now that I'm a parent that hashad to take time off, 'cause I wasn't
one then, now that I'm a parent that'shad to take time off, now that I'm a
parent that is recently divorced anda single mom, now that I'm a parent
that understands how much you investin your child, I'm like, wow, I was
completely, tone deaf is not the rightterm anymore, but just completely out
(11:59):
of the loop of being a human being.
So, I would say those two.
I know it was a long answer, butthose two, um, are the most memorable.
And one of the two was the catalystto Ama becoming That Inclusion Lady.
Sam Fuqua (12:14):
That idea of moving beyond the transactional relationship, uh,
as a manager or as a, a colleague,how do you know how far to go?
Because it, in my experience,it's different for different
people in a workplace.
Some people it is more like, I'mhere for the job, I'm going home.
You know, they still want to get along,but other people need more connection.
(12:35):
I don't know how you as an HRmanager and consultant address the,
potentially the different needsof, of people in, in that regard.
Ama Agyapong (12:44):
Yes.
So, I think if you havea question, you ask.
And so, one of the questions thatleaders often don't ask is, how
do you like to receive feedback?
How often do you want to connect with me?
When you are having those conversations,I think it's important to at least
start off with having a set ofquestions that you ask everyone
(13:05):
because you're gathering data.
So, I think it's importantto start with data and, and
then you follow with passion.
And so, some of the questions I tellleaders to ask are things like, you
know, tell me something about yourselfthat I can't read on a resume.
If you were to win the lottery and workwas not a concern, bills were not a
(13:30):
concern, what would you do for a living?
You know, what, what questions doyou think people would ask you more?
Like, these are questions that youcan ask anyone regardless of their
comfort level of how deep they wannago to just start getting information.
Once you get that information, I thinkit's important to study your team.
(13:52):
So, spend time with thempossibly doing what they do.
Whether it's they're teaching yousomething because again, people love
to talk about themselves and they lovewhen you're curious about what they do,
and you can highlight their strengths.
Spend time allowing them toteach you something where you're
not always the one teaching.
(14:13):
I think another thing is when I say studyyour person, look at the little things.
So, do they have something on theirwall that seems important to them?
Do you overhear them talkingabout a soccer game or something
dealing with their family?
When you listen and then you followup, those little pieces are making
(14:34):
deposits in the proverbial bank andbuilding those relationships, where
you're saying, I care about you as aperson, not only your output as a person.
Does that answer your question?
Sam Fuqua (14:47):
Yeah, it does, and it's really smart, I think, advice.
Ama Agyapong (14:50):
But it's slow, so it's not immediate.
A lot of, you know, a lot of leaders justwant, oh, I wanna build a relationship
in a week because we have a lot of stuffto do, and that's not always how it goes.
It really starts with genuinely wanting toget to know someone, listening, and asking
open-ended questions through curiosity.
Sam Fuqua (15:11):
And it takes time, as you said.
Ama Agyapong (15:12):
Yes.
Yes it does.
Alexis Miles (15:16):
Something you just mentioned just makes me think of the
importance of, of relationship building.
It sounds like you'resaying that's paramount.
Without that, nothing.
Ama Agyapong (15:28):
Without that, nothing.
Like, how are they gonna trust you withtheir flaws, if there's no relationship?
How are they gonna trust yourintent in the moments we need
grace, if there is no relationship?
And if you're scared of them because ofhow they present or some, some certain
identity or you know, some preconceivednotion, how are you going to truly build
(15:52):
a relationship, see their strengthsand see their unlimited potential?
Because that's what most people want.
They just want you to seetheir unlimited potential.
That's why like Harvard Business Reviewwrote about building trust and having
high expectations, and challenginggoals is a part of it because it's
saying, "Hey, I see how great you areand maybe some of these things get in
the way." But you can't start havinga conversation about what gets in the
(16:14):
way without building a relationship.
And surprising, Alexis, alot of people don't know how
to do that in the workplace.
They think it's either, back toyour question, Sam, they think
it's either all business or I'mtelling you all my business.
Like, and there is an in between,but again, people need to learn that
skillset of building relationships,which is why I teach it.
(16:35):
And you would think it's commonsense, but, but it ain't so common.
Alexis Miles (16:39):
In terms of building relationships, how do you do that in
an environment where there's a lot ofdiversity, a lot of different identities?
Ama Agyapong (16:50):
I think this is gonna sound really simple, however, what has worked
for me is listening more than I speak.
And asking genuine, open-ended questions.
And why I say genuine is becausesometimes I hear people ask open-ended
questions with a intended response inmind, and that's just disingenuous.
(17:15):
So, I think it's, one, doing your ownresearch because it's not their job to
teach you everything about their cultureand their history and all of those things.
So, doing your own research.
I think it's being humble enough toadmit when you don't know something
or when you do make a mistake.
(17:37):
And if you're not always trying tobe right, and you listen more than
you speak, I, I think relationshipsnaturally just start to build,
especially through curiosity.
If you're genuinely interestedin why a person does something or
what their family does when theycelebrate certain things, or you're
(17:57):
asking questions about some of thedifferences, but then you also highlight
and notice some of the similarities.
And, and you truly wanna know whypeople operate the way in which they
do, because different is in deficit.
So, if you start off saying, differenceis amazing and I wanna celebrate
it, it just has a, a differentperspective and tone and it works.
(18:18):
I've seen it, I've taught it,I've, it, over and over again.
It, it really does work when youare building those relationships
and you're doing it through wantinga transformational connection
versus a transactional one.
Alexis Miles (18:32):
So Ama, what you're saying reminds me of race
and gender in the workplace.
And, people find it hard to talk aboutrace and gender in the workplace.
So number one, why do we find thosetwo things so hard to talk about?
And then number two, what canwe do to start bringing those
(18:55):
conversations to the table withcuriosity as opposed to defensiveness?
Ama Agyapong (19:01):
Ooh, that's a good question.
And it's, it's a loaded question.
So the first thing is, why dopeople struggle talking about race?
And I wanna go with this quote I heard, Iread in a book called Disruptive Thinking
by T.D. Jakes, and he says, "I can't geta PhD without learning about you, but you
(19:26):
can get a PhD without learning about me.
And so when we think about what's taught,what's emphasized, what's celebrated
from childhood, oftentimes it's not race.
Oftentimes we are taught to shy away fromrace." I'll never forget, I was in the
grocery store and it was a little girlwith her mom and, little white girl,
(19:50):
and she said, "Mommy, look, a browngirl." Because I was in a town that
didn't have a lot of black people andshe was excited and I was cracking up.
I'm like, I'm rather brown.
Absolutely right.
But the mom was mortified.
Mortified.
And you, she turned red.
She tried to, you know, hush her child up.
She just kept going.
(20:10):
And think about the type of messagethat sends to that young child.
So, from, to maybe three orfour from that very young age,
you're telling this person, raceis not something we talk about.
Actually, because of my negativereinforcement, race is a bad thing.
And so, I think it starts there.
American, America has a lot ofdemons when it comes to race.
(20:30):
We haven't truly rectified it,and we haven't really taught it.
And because of that, there's afear when we talk about race,
and I think it starts there.
I think we've gotten alittle better with gender.
But it's still a lot ofparity there as well.
And then your second questionwas, what are some of the things
we can do in the workplace?
(20:51):
Is that correct?
Alexis Miles (20:53):
That's right.
How, how can we just navigatein the workplace when we have
those kinds of differences?
Ama Agyapong (20:58):
Yeah, so I think it starts with understanding history, and truly
drawing connections on how oppressionfrom the past impacts the present.
And I think that is adisconnect for a lot of people.
Some people might even understandhistory, but they say that's the past.
So, why can't we just move forward?
Civil Rights Act of 1964.
(21:20):
Like we, we should be past that.
Where we're not realizinggenerational trauma and how
it's passed through genetically.
We're not realizing, perfect example, mygreat grandmother died at 103 in 2018.
Her parents were slaves.
Think about that.
My grandmother, who's 91 years old,that I talked to him every other day,
(21:43):
needed a pass to get, get on South Beach.
I'm from Miami.
A, a, a working permitto get on South Beach.
I remember hearing stories about theonly beach in all of South Florida
that black people could be on.
We don't think about howthat impacts the present.
And because of that, it makes racehard to talk about because oftentimes
(22:04):
responses are denying, discrediting,ignoring, minimizing, and that just
starts to build more and more of a rift.
And so, what we can do in the workplaceis, one, know your history and
understand the impacts of current day.
Another thing we can do is again, leadwith curiosity in asking questions.
(22:25):
And finally, think about your privilege.
And what I mean by that is that whenyou understand your privilege, then
you can offer some type of empathy.
Here's another example.
My brother and I grew up doing sports.
We have pretty good genetics.
Our, our, my parents are fit.
And though we eat well and we workout, 50 percent of that is genetics.
(22:50):
Even if we didn't eat well or workout, we would still be kind of fit.
And so, one day he made a comment aboutfat people because we have weight biases,
and he was saying it from a very callousperspective, and because I have done
some of the inner work, I was like, doyou understand our privilege though?
We don't know what it's liketo have certain allergies.
We don't know what it'slike to have thyroid issues.
(23:11):
We don't know what it's like to havecertain genetics in us and have all
these ailments that impact our weight.
Like we don't know what that feels like.
So though we work hard, we can'tdiscredit our hard work, we also
need to acknowledge our privilege tomaybe have empathy for someone else.
That's just an examplewhen it comes to weight.
So, think about that, what that cando if we think about the same thing
(23:33):
through race, through gender, throughdisability, through sexual orientation
and gender identity, because each one ofthose identities has a set of experiences
that maybe we don't understand or know.
Alexis Miles (23:47):
Thank you for that response.
And I really appreciate you givinga personal example because I think
frequently people think experts in thefield like you, people who are highly
educated, have it all together, you know.
They have no issues.
They have it all together.
And it's very helpful to know that,oh, we all share the same struggles.
(24:12):
We might have different approaches todealing with them, but we're all human.
We all share the same struggles.
Joys and sorrows.
Ama Agyapong (24:19):
Yes.
Oh, I love the way you said that.
Absolutely.
Alexis Miles (24:23):
What do you do when you are in a situation, having a conversation,
in the interaction, your heart startracing, you feel the blood rush to your
face, hands start trembling a littlebit, and you, you've been hijacked.
Um, what can a person do in thatmoment when having a conversation about
race or disability or anything that,that causes that kind of reaction?
Ama Agyapong (24:48):
Oh yes.
So, one really good thing isyou gotta know your triggers.
So, you, you mentioned severalthings, Alexis, you were like,
your heart starts racing.
You know, your face might become flushed.
Your, your mind, you might feel like aheartbeat almost in your, in your temples.
Like, people don't realize that thatis your body responding to a stress
(25:09):
and anxiety to that amygdala hijack.
So, first is understanding what,how does my body respond when
I'm triggered and getting upset?
That's number one.
Number two is it's okayto say how you're feeling.
And some of these things are sosimple, but you can say, "I'm
starting to get upset right now.
I'm feeling it.
(25:30):
I'm feeling it, and I, I don'twanna derail this conversation.
Can we take a break?
And I promise we can get back to this'cause I wanna hear what you have to say.
It's important, but I also don'twanna get in the way of your
words." And then take a break.
Right?
But oftentimes we want toignore how we're feeling.
I, I've, I've experienced this becauselately I've been getting real mad.
(25:54):
Every time I watch thenews, I'm pissed off.
I'm like, are you kidding me?
Are we saying, these people don't exist?
These experiences don't exist?
And I've had people to poach conversationsthat have a different opinion than me.
And I love having conversations thatare a different opinion than mine, as
long as it's not steeped in homophobiaor xenophobia or racism or sexism.
(26:16):
Right?
So, like, my oppression can't be,you are just misunderstanding.
So, I've had to be like, you knowwhat, I value what you're saying,
but I'm not hearing it right now.
My emotions are getting in the way.
So, can we, can we take a pausebecause I don't, I don't want
this conversation to go left.
And that's it.
Alexis Miles (26:37):
And when you take that pause, what do you do during the pause?
What are you doing?
Ama Agyapong (26:42):
Oh, that's a good question.
Oh, you ask good questions.
I am breathing.
I might pick up my Bibleand read a scripture.
I might listen to music.
I might call a friend, likean accountability partner who
challenges me because sometimesit might be my own stuff.
Not necessarily theirs.
And so, I need to process through that.
(27:03):
And so when I take a beat, it mightneed to be a quick beat where I just
go take some deep breaths, take a walk.
I love the sun 'cause it gives thevitamin D to restore the energy.
Science behind that.
Or sometimes I gotta take a couple days.
I typically don't, my beat's notlonger than 48, 48 hours because
that kind of just loses the moment.
But the one thing I always do, so afterI do that, after I breathe, read, call
(27:28):
an accountability partner and justlisten to music, I always circle back.
Because if not, it is sending the signaland it's a strong statement, but it's
sending the signal that they don't matter.
Their words don't matter.
It's almost like abandonment in themoment, and I never want that to happen.
So I always circle back.
(27:49):
Is it still good that we talk about this?
This is what was happening with me.
I'm just transparent.
I'm, I'm ready to havethis conversation again.
And if they don't wanna talk, that's fine.
I've done my part.
Alexis Miles (27:59):
So it's all again, and once again, it's all about relationship
building again, and, and trust.
Ama Agyapong (28:06):
It's relationships and trust.
And speaking of relationships and trust,you know, when we think about trust, we
gotta ask ourselves, are we credible?
Are we reliable?
How do we communicate?
And, at the end of the day, whenI'm engaging with people, is there
(28:26):
a high level of self-orientation?
Like, is it all for my own self-interest?
Is it all for an ulteriormotive or is it genuine?
Is it for the betterment ofthat person or the group?
Because that makes ahuge, huge difference.
And if we can say yes to thosethings, that means we're pretty good
at building those relationships.
(28:47):
But if we look at that and we'resaying, no, I'm actually not
credible, or, no, I'm not reliable.
My words don't align with my actions.
I don't do what I say.
Okay, great.
Now you know what you need to work on.
Or, I'm super selfish and every timeI'm doing something or talking to
someone, it's all a part of this plan.
It's all calculated.
If that's who you areas a person, love you.
(29:08):
I love that for you.
Do, do your thing, boo.
But if you want to build realrelationships where people trust you
and trust what you say and know youhave their best interest at heart,
that's something you gotta work on.
Charles Green has a trust equation,and I love the trust equation because
it makes it very, very tangible.
What can I work on?
What can build trust?
(29:30):
And it's based on science anddifferent studies and how the
brain oxytocin gets released.
And so, it's brilliant.
But after you learn this equation,going back to the practical aspect
of it, we gotta think, what do Ineed to do with this information?
And where's my gap?
And that's how we do it.
Sam Fuqua (29:47):
Ama, can you give us some ideas for if we're trying to build trust,
not on a supervisor, uh, supervisee,but a peer level colleague in a
workplace, someone who comes from a verydifferent background than ourselves.
How do we do that in a way that'snot, uh, where we can avoid putting
our foot in it or microaggressing?
Ama Agyapong (30:10):
I wanna start with the person with, like, a different identity.
I, I think it's really important to askyourself, would I build a relationship,
like, as you're building what you thinkis a relationship with that person?
Am I approaching this the sameway I would approach someone that
I look at as similar to myself?
Someone I respect the same,someone I think and admire.
Um, someone that I feel comes from a,a same, similar background as I do.
(30:34):
And why I say that is because that'stypically the most genuine level
of trying to connect with someone.
And so, I would say start there.
When I say start there, it canbe something really practical.
Like, if you, if it's a colleague andyou're constantly on Zoom meetings,
right, and they say something thatyou actually think is important,
(30:54):
like, send them a, a DM, "Hey, thatwas a great idea. Thanks for raising
that." Or, you notice, you know, youstart to see patterns and trends.
Going back to observing,listening more than you talk, and
acknowledging someone's brilliance.
Say that to them.
"Hey, our last three meetings, you havereally been brilliant in this aspect.
(31:16):
Would you wanna connect over lunch?" Like,that takes vulnerability because they can
say no and then you feel rejected, right?
But the gamble is so great.
It can be things like asking someoneif they need help with something in the
workplace, because oftentimes it's, thisseems very, uh, competition focused.
It can be something like even with yourleader, because they're human beings too.
(31:40):
You can ask how I can support you.
Right?
And so those are very practicalways we can start just reaching
out, reaching out to say, I am here.
I'm here to connect.
When they are different than you, whenyou start the conversation off and
you're treating them as you would someonethat's like yourself, because it's, it
is interesting, there's a, a, a dualsided to having different identities.
(32:04):
We want to be seen as different, butwe also wanna be treated the same.
Right?
It's, it's very, very interesting.
We wanna be celebrated for ourdifferences, but we also want to be
looked at for our group identity.
And so, I think it starts off withfinding maybe some similarities
and when you notice differences,ask questions about it.
Um, and not asking questionsfrom a perspective of, I want you
(32:25):
to teach me about your culture,but from the perspective of I
want you to teach me about you.
And so, an example could be I used to havea, a team full of, um, people from the
middle, Middle East and North Africa, andthey all celebrated Ramadan quite a bit.
Well, I had a general knowledge of whatRamadan was and how they celebrate Eid
(32:45):
at the end, and I made accommodations.
So, it was just aneasier 30 days for them.
But I also wanted to know like, howdo you celebrate it with your family?
What are some of your family traditions?
How do, how, what does it mean to you?
And so again, understanding howthat person has a group identity,
but then starting to drill downlower in that iceberg to, to also
(33:09):
know who they are as individuals.
But that piece takes time 'cause goingback to the relationship and the trust,
you can't feel entitled to trust.
We are outta understand it builds.
But it builds first by, by, Ithink, finding similarities.
Sam Fuqua (33:25):
You know, I used to be so generic and frankly stereotypical,
where if it was a guy, I'd justtalk about sports, you know.
It was an attempt to connect, but a very,uh, the sort of the safest, blandest way.
Ama Agyapong (33:41):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And I, you know what though, Sam, Ithink starting off that way, great.
Right?
You all are trying to build arelationship, but at some point
we gotta go past the stereotype.
At some point we gotta go alittle bit beneath the surface.
Um, and so to your point, it was verybland, very generic, which that's
where people feel comfortable at first.
(34:02):
But then it's about, okay, how can I takethis to another level and get to know this
individual that's in front of me, not thisindividual that's representing a group.
Alexis Miles (34:12):
You just raised something, Ama, discomfort.
And, I have heard you say you have toget comfortable with being uncomfortable.
So, when we feel uncomfortable,when we're trying to go beyond the
superficial and, you know, scared,am I gonna say the wrong thing?
Am I gonna ask the wrong question?
(34:33):
What if I look stupid?
You know, what if they think I'm nosy?
That's discomfort, uh, that'suncomfortable to feel like that and to
have those thoughts running through.
So, how does a person learn to becomfortable being uncomfortable?
Ama Agyapong (34:49):
Repetition.
You, you just gotta keep doing it.
It starts with knowing that yourworldview isn't the only worldview.
And your experience isn'tthe universal experience.
And so, once you get past that, right,an example is an able-bodied experience
(35:11):
versus someone who has a disability.
Those are two verydifferent lived experiences.
And, even me sitting here saying,able-bodied versus, I'm like,
am I supposed to say that?
I don't know.
So, there is discomfort evenmentioning that because that for me
is, is the group I've had the leastamount of exposure to, and that's
(35:32):
where I've had to do the most work.
But it's repetition.
So, the more I put myself in thosesituations to have to ask a question
or to not know, because I've beenknowing a lot of things, Alexis, but
what are the moments I don't know?
I gotta put myself in those situationsand then when my brain is like,
shut down, don't say anything.
(35:52):
They're gonna think you're dumb.
Nope, I am not.
I'm gonna challenge that thought andI'm gonna ask an open-ended question.
I'm going to ask, how do youexperience that in your shoes,
right, in your worldview?
I'm gonna ask those questions.
With maybe the fear ofcoming off a certain way.
(36:13):
But again, I'm making it about me if Ido that instead of making it about them.
So, it's repetition.
Reprogramming yourself in those moments.
You have to pay attention to yourbody, you know what's going on and
say, nope, this is what I'm gonna do.
Usually responding with anopen-ended, genuine question.
You hear me say that a lot.
(36:33):
And then making it about that person.
I think those four things reallyhelps to start feeling comfortable
in the discomfort and knowing Imight get corrected right now.
And then I've learned something.
And then I can keep going.
Alexis Miles (36:50):
So, it sounds like you're saying that kind of authenticity,
the openness, uh, willingness tofeel uncomfortable is what it takes
to learn and grow and develop an,develop an authentic relationship.
Ama Agyapong (37:04):
Yes, it does.
In release.
And when you just said that, itmade me think of, it comes with
releasing this notion of perfectionbecause especially women struggle
with this idea of perfection.
I have to always be right.
I have to always have it together.
I have to always come off a certain way.
I have to always be, andno, actually you don't.
(37:25):
You have to always be you.
Because nobody does youbetter than you, right?
And a part of being youis getting corrected.
A part of being you is being authentic,being vulnerable, not knowing,
and failing fast, failing forward,failing and getting better, failing
(37:46):
and learning, failing and sharing.
And not sharing so youcan condemn someone else.
Oh, I learned not to say this wordtoday, so how dare you say that now.
No, no, no, no, no.
You were just not perfectat that two days ago.
Right?
And so sharing to say, thiswas my lived experience.
Hopefully it can help youbecause this helped me.
That it, it really doesstart, start with that.
(38:07):
Being open and letting, just lettinggo of per, perfection, which is
just a notion that's baked intothe culture and society we live in.
Alexis Miles (38:19):
I'm curious, Ama, it, do you have anything that you would just like to
leave with people that you think it's justimportant for people to, to have ratting
around in their minds and in their heartsso that they can approach conflict and
relationship building with more skill?
Ama Agyapong (38:39):
Yes.
I think one, we have to knowfeedback, conflict, communication,
like that's an art and a science.
And it's an art and a science wedon't come to this world knowing.
And so, just like we study how to be adoctor, how to be a leader, how to be a
lawyer, a lot of us study how to be a mom,we also need to study how to communicate,
(39:02):
how to navigate conflict, how to provideand receive, and receive, feedback
because that is an art and a science.
So it's a skillset we have to build.
The other thing I'm going to say is,and I've learned this from motherhood,
and I know we talk a lot about intentversus impact, but it's very different
when you're living it in the moment.
(39:22):
So, example, um, we had justcome home from wrestling.
I'm cooking dinner, my son knows,he's six, give yourself a bath.
We have this whole routine going.
I still hear the water running.
I'm like, "Hey, have you, have you startedbathing yourself?" He's like, "No."
So I get mad, the food's on the stove.
I come in with a attitudeand I, he's like, "I got it.
I got it, mommy.
(39:43):
Now I got it.
I, I, I, I, I'm almost done." And I'mlike, "No." And I grabbed the, the,
the rag and I start giving him a bath.
And he starts bawling, crying.
And I'm like, yo, like, whatis wrong with you right now?
Like, I'm just, you're crying becausemommy's giving you a bath, right?
And so he, I finish, give him his towel,go get dressed, go check on the food.
(40:04):
Like everything is super, super rushed.
'Cause typically, our biastakes over when we rush.
But, when I'm making sure he hasointment on his skin and all this other
stuff, something told me to pause.
And I paused, and I asked him, I waslike, "When mommy gave you a bath,
why, why, why did you start crying?
Like, what was happening for you inthat moment?" He said, "You weren't
(40:28):
listening to me." I said, "Okay.
And when mommy doesn't listen toyou, how does that make you feel?"
"It makes me feel sad." "Okay.
Why does it make you feel sad?""Because I told you that I had it.
And when you didn't believe me, you didn'tbelieve me, you didn't listen, and it
made me feel like you didn't trust me."
(40:50):
So, in that moment, Alexisand Sam, I had a choice.
I had a choice to completely minimize,belittle, disregard what he was saying
because I knew what my intent was.
My intent was we just left wrestling,and I gotta get you fed, and you gotta
go to bed on time so you can havea great day the next day at school.
That's my intent.
I'm being a good mom.
That's the intent.
Or, I can sit there and listen tothe impact and acknowledge that.
(41:14):
Because acknowledging the impact is sowinga seed of trust that's gonna flourish
into this beautiful plant that I amgoing to benefit from the fruit of later.
And my friends, that iswhat I wanna leave you with.
In those moments when you wannabe wrapped up in what your intent
is in the moment, think about whatseeds do I need to plant today?
(41:36):
What seeds of trust, what seeds ofconnection, what seeds of relationship
building do I need to connect today?
'Cause I'm focused on them and not me tobuild this plant that's going to yield
fruit that we both can benefit from later.
So, that is what I willleave you all with.
Sam Fuqua (41:53):
Ama Agyapong, thank you very much for this conversation.
Really valuable.
We so grateful for your time.
Ama Agyapong (42:01):
Thank you.
Likewise.
Your brilliant minds, brilliant questions.
Just thank you for this space andtrusting me with your audience.
Sam Fuqua (42:09):
Ama Agyapong is a human resources and diversity
consultant, trainer and facilitator.
She's the founder of Inclusion Enterprisesand that's where you can find her on
the web at inclusionenterprises.org.
(42:31):
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
(42:53):
And, we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
(43:14):
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
(43:34):
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!