June 26, 2025 • 31 mins
In this episode we talk with Alison Cohen about the conflict between a food system that has the capacity to produce enough food to feed everyone, and the fact that 47 million people in the US are food insecure. This is the first in a two part series on Food Justice. Alison Cohen is a co-founder and director of the National Right to Food Community of Practice. We spoke with her at the 2025 White Privilege Conference in Hartford, Connecticut.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Alison Cohen (00:08):
Hunger is a political issue.
It can be solved.
We need the political will.
That's what we need to end hunger.
We don't need more donations.
We don't need to capture more food waste.
We need political will.
And, if we have that political will todo things like raise the minimum wage to
(00:29):
a living wage, then we could end hunger.
Sam Fuqua (00:33):
That's Alison Cohen, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode we talk with AlisonCohen about the conflict between a
(00:56):
food system that has the capacityto produce enough food to feed
everyone, and the fact that 47 millionpeople in the US are food insecure.
This is the first in a twopart series on Food Justice.
Alison Cohen is a co-founder anddirector of the National Right
(01:17):
to Food Community of Practice.
We spoke with her at the 2025White Privilege Conference
in Hartford, Connecticut.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:31):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:31):
Very pleased to have Alison Cohen with us for this
episode of Well, That Went Sideways!
Hello.
Alison Cohen (01:37):
Hi.
Thank you so much for having me.
Sam Fuqua (01:39):
We're speaking to you at the 2025 White Privilege Conference.
And so to start off, some peoplemight wonder, well, what is the
connection between white privilege,white supremacy, anti-racism work, the
bread and butter of this conference,and, uh, and food insecurity, which
is the, the space you work in.
Alison Cohen (01:57):
Yes, it is.
And I have been, I've spent manyyears pro, well, at least lemme say
the last 10 to 15 years, trying toblend these two inquiries together.
How do we end hunger and whatdoes racism have to do with it?
So, being able to be here at thisconference and really address that and,
(02:18):
and workshop it and talk about it withfolks here has been really important, and,
um, and really an honor to, to do that.
So, what I have been talkingabout here with folks is that
food justice is racial justice.
If you don't have racial justice, youdon't have food justice, and vice versa.
We know in this country that peopleof color, in particular black
(02:43):
communities, are twice as likely tobe food insecure as white communities.
Right now, we have the highest rateof hunger that we've ever experienced
in this country, save for the 18months or so during COVID where there
was a big spike, 47 million peopleon record are, uh, food insecure.
(03:04):
But we know that closer to 50million are using food banks and
food pantries on a regular basis.
So, it's an issue for many, many,many people, and majority of them,
uh, live in communities of color.
And so, when we talk about what'sthe root cause of hunger, we say,
well, the root cause is poverty.
(03:25):
But you can't stop there.
The root cause of poverty is thelegacy of racial injustice that
has been upheld by institutions,policies, practices, and structures
since the founding of this country.
Alexis Miles (03:39):
Well, Alison, especially these days, I think people would
argue with you and say, no, theroot cause of hunger is not poverty.
It's laziness.
If those people just followedthe system, did the right things,
exhibited merit, because this is ameritocracy, they would have good jobs
(04:02):
and they would be able to get food.
Alison Cohen (04:03):
Yep.
Alexis Miles (04:04):
How would you respond to that?
Alison Cohen (04:05):
I would respond by saying that, first of all, more than 50 percent
of people that use food banks on aregular basis, by regular, I mean monthly
because they can't meet all their food,food needs have at least one full-time
working adult in their household.
So, it is not about laziness.
(04:25):
When you live in a, a society like oursthat hasn't changed the minimum wage
since the 1970s, we know that we couldend hunger pretty much overnight if we
changed the minimum wage, if we changed,uh, the way that we honor employment in
this country by paying more, by providing,um, healthcare, by providing other
(04:48):
kinds of benefits, sick leave, a varietyof things that we could do to really
structurally change the, um, ability ofpeople to feed themselves with dignity.
And that's what people want.
By and large, they do not wantto stand in lines or receive a
boxed of food from a food bank.
(05:11):
That's, that's a fallacy.
Alexis Miles (05:12):
So, you're saying it has nothing to do with the character of
people or their worthiness as people?
It has more to do with structures.
Alison Cohen (05:21):
Yes.
And I think that's where the intersection,uh, with white privilege and white
supremacy values comes into play.
The white supremacy values are rootedin ideologies that are, we might
call individualism and paternalism.
And, the kind of argument thatthe poor will always be with us.
(05:46):
And, and that if they could just pullthemselves up by their bootstraps,
forget that they maybe don't even haveboots, but if they could just pull
themselves up by their bootstraps,then they, they wouldn't be hungry.
And that in and of itself is, uh, anexample of the deeply rooted beliefs and
values that come out of white privilege.
Sam Fuqua (06:11):
So, you've said that the root cause of hunger is poverty.
What are some of the, expandon the structural issues or
problems within the food system.
Alison Cohen (06:20):
I will, um, start by saying that we have something
in the US called the Farm Bill.
It comes up every four years.
Although we have not had a newfarm bill now for the last couple
years, it was due two years ago.
We haven't had it for lots ofreasons, um, that have to do with
people not being able to negotiateit around the same table together.
(06:40):
However, the Farm Bill is wherethe funding and the decisions get
made about agricultural subsidies.
And SNAP, which is our food stampprogram, we now call it SNAP, the
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.
Um, to underscore that it's meantto be about nutritional assistance.
It's very, um, insufficient, inadequate.
(07:03):
That's where those decisions get made.
What has happened over many,many decades is that, uh,
agriculture's become consolidated.
We've lost many, many small farmers,and in terms of race, it's black
farmers whose, who have beendispossessed of land, um, throughout
(07:24):
the 20th, the whole 20th century, 98percent of black farmers lost land.
Black communities lost land.
We now, in terms of, we look at thefarming, uh, landscape in the country
today, um, in 1910, it was one out ofevery seven farmers was a black farmer.
Now it's one out of every 78.
(07:44):
And that isn't to say that whitefarmers also haven't, you know, a
lot, land has become consolidated, theindustry has become consolidated, and
so we now have a agricultural systemthat is dominated by corporations.
So, we have a corporate foodindustry, which is underpinned by
(08:06):
the Farm Bill, by our tax dollars,by the policies that are made.
That in turn means that we havefewer farmers growing less food.
In fact, this country grows morenon-food crops than we grow food
crops, and we export most of that.
So, we grow a lot of food, food,food products, agricultural products
(08:31):
that produce ethanol, and that, thatfeed cattle that aren't supposed to
be eating corn in the first place.
So, we have a, a, a food systemthat is set up to benefit a small
number of corporations instead ofthinking about food as a human right.
(08:53):
So, what has happened is that wenow think of food as a commodity.
We don't think of food as a basic humanneed, and therefore a basic human right.
It's become a part ofour commodity system.
Alexis Miles (09:07):
Well, you refer to food as a basic human need, and you
talked about SNAP, which, um, andwhich includes the word nutrition.
Alison Cohen (09:15):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (09:15):
So, is it true that if you don't have adequate nutrition
when you're younger, it has impactson your life when you're older, that
might impact your ability to get a job?
Alison Cohen (09:26):
Yes.
Right.
So, there's this, thisvicious cycle, right?
So, we know that we need good nutrients,good nutrition from day one in order
for our minds and our bodies to develop.
And in the first, and I'm not an expertin nutrition, but in the first five
to seven years of our lives, that'swhere the, where we need the most
nutrition in order to give ourselvesa real, um, head start in, um,
(09:52):
intellectual, emotional, physical growth.
And, when you are in a foodinsecure family and you don't have
access to food, perhaps you don'teven have a grocery store in your
neighborhood, or you're reliant upona food pantry where more often than
not, it, you don't get a choice.
You get what food is available.
(10:13):
And, a lot of it is sort ofthe corporate castoffs, right?
So, the food that didn't getsold, that's heavily packaged, and
heavily, um, preserved and processed.
And so, that is not what you shouldbe eating to grow your, the mind
and body of your, of yourself,of your children at that age.
Sam Fuqua (10:33):
So, what do you say to someone who says, well, I, I
recognize hunger as a problem.
I'm doing my part by contributingto my local food bank.
Uh, I even volunteerat my local food bank.
Alison Cohen (10:45):
I would say that is amazing.
Great.
We really, we as, as I've said before,it would be irresponsible to pull
the plug on food banks tomorrow.
We have a lot of peoplethat are in a lot of need.
And, I would say, it isn't enough.
You can give to your food bank.
(11:06):
You can volunteer at your food bank.
But if you're also not doing the workto understand the root causes of hunger,
and doing what you can to begin to changethat for the future, then it's not enough.
So, give to your food bank, volunteerat your food bank, and then think about
(11:26):
who you're putting in office that ismaking decisions about the Farm Bill.
Think about who you'reelecting in your state.
Think about, um, ways in which youcan understand and learn from people
who have lived experience of hunger.
Sam Fuqua (11:47):
When I think of, uh, large charitable sectors, the United Way,
which gives to a lot of social services.
Uh, animals, the Humane Society.
Uh, how does the food sector compareas a, as a charitable, uh, entity?
How big is it?
Alison Cohen (12:03):
Yes.
So, the, this is only since COVIDactually, but Feeding America, which
is the primary network of food banksin our country - they have more than
200, uh, large scale food banks thatare members of Feeding America - they
have now outpaced United Way as thenumber one charity in this country.
(12:27):
They have more income, they receivemore donations, they're larger in
size than any other charitable sector.
So, the number one charitablesector in our country.
Sam Fuqua (12:37):
And do we know how many people volunteer at food banks?
Alison Cohen (12:40):
I don't know that number off the top of my head, but it's,
um, it, it, it's, yes, it's high.
It's very high.
Sam Fuqua (12:47):
And so, an, a great opportunity for education
and advocacy as you spoke of.
We don't know which food banks aredoing that, which aren't, well,
we might know some that are doingit, but many potentially aren't.
Alison Cohen (12:58):
One of the food banks that we've been working with, um, that
it's actually, they, they're not quite,they're not a regional food bank.
They're a smaller food pantry inDenver is called Metro Caring,
and they're doing amazing work.
They have, um, they're working directlywith their staff to, uh, do this, kind
(13:19):
of, political education where peopleare really cognizant of what the root
causes of hunger are, and what are thestructural issues in the city of Denver
and in the state of Colorado that are,uh, perpetuating chronic food insecurity.
They're really quite admirablein that, in that respect.
And then, they're also bringingthose people together that use
(13:40):
their food pantry to come up withvarious policies and structural
changes that they would like to see.
One example is they've beenworking for a number of years now
on, uh, a community food utility.
So, um, you know how we have publicutilities for water and electricity?
This would be a community ownedand managed utility for food, and
(14:08):
it would require and ensure thateveryone has the right to food.
Meaning that that food is accessible,it's available in their communities,
it is grown sustainably, and thatthey are participating in defining
what their food system looks like.
So there's, there's really admirable workhappening in many of these food banks
(14:32):
and food pantries across the country.
I don't want to vilify them at allbecause we need them right now.
And, imagine if we could harness the powerof all those volunteers and all of those.
Employees at those food banks to beginto shift their own thinking instead of
the, oh, well, the hungry will always bewith us, and so we're gonna always need a
(14:54):
charitable solution to actually if we juststarted advocating for a living wage, or
a thriving wage, then we would probablyreduce the hunger numbers overnight.
But in fact, many food pantriesand Feeding America as the
network, um, does not advocatefor economic justice policies.
(15:20):
They do advocate for SNAP, to protectSNAP, to grow it to, to, you know, but
they say, oh, it's mission creep if westart talking about and advocating for
Congress to raise the minimum wage.
That's not us.
That's a different sector.
I would argue that it's not.
Sam Fuqua (15:38):
Right.
But this is an area of conflictwithin the, the anti-hunger,
uh, movement broadly defined?
Alison Cohen (15:44):
I, I think it is, and you could call it that.
It can be a conflict.
And, I prefer to think of it as acontradiction that we have to hold.
We don't think charity.
We've seen it.
We actually know the data.
We've had food banks for morethan 50 years now in this country,
and they keep growing and growingand growing, and so has hunger.
(16:05):
So clearly, food banking does not, is notreally an anti-hunger strategy, right?
It's a, it might be a short termanti-hunger strategy, right?
We, and we're always gonna needsome kind of emergency food system.
But it's, m, changed from an emergencyfood to, system, to a, sort of a,
defacto grocery store for many,many working people who don't make
(16:30):
enough money to feed their families.
So, it's a contradiction we have to hold.
And yes, it can be conflictual in some,in some cases, and it doesn't have to be.
The food banks that I cherish andthat I champion are those that
are doing a kind of politicaleducation with their volunteers.
Often the volunteers will come in,they learn about food handling, safe,
(16:54):
food safety, handling food safely, um,they learn about how to package things.
Maybe they learn a little bit about howto interact with people who are houseless
or, you know, that kind of thing.
But those that are saying, okay,we need you at this food bank.
This food bank is necessary right now.
And, we also want you to learn a littlebit more about who's hungry in our,
(17:17):
in our city or our, uh, community.
Uh, what do they look like?
Where do they come from?
Where are they hungry?
Who's working?
What are the, what arethe structural reasons?
And what are some of the thingsthat you can do to help change
those structures and systems?
Alexis Miles (17:34):
Could you take a moment and educate me?
And the in, in the short form.
Because from my perspective, don'twe have enough food in this country
to feed everybody nutritious food?
Alison Cohen (17:47):
We do.
In fact, we produce enough food.
This is a, a, a statistic worldwide, butwe have enough food to produce one and
a half times the amount of nutritiousfood that we need for a population, the
population we expect 30 years from now.
You'll often see a lot of, um, youknow, a lot of folks that say, well,
we just need to produce more food.
We need to produce more food.
(18:07):
That's why we need the biggerfarms, and we need the greater
consolidation so we can be moreefficient in how we produce food.
And in fact, as I mentionedearlier, a lot of our farms are
not producing food that we can eat.
They're producing food, feed forcattle, or they're producing corn
that's then turned, and soybeansthat are then turned into ethanol.
(18:28):
So, imagine if we could convert allof that land into more of a patchwork
of smaller farms that are producing adiversity of foods and fruits and animals,
meats, and predominantly, not exclusively,because I like to eat bananas and they
(18:49):
don't grow in New York, but predominantlygrowing food that is then consumed within
the same region where it's, it's grown.
I think that would be a more just foodsystem, and a food system that would
take us to a place where there isgreater equity in access to nutrition.
Alexis Miles (19:15):
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, if people could earn
enough money to live, this would,a, a large part of hunger would take
care of itself because people would beable to buy the food that they need.
Alison Cohen (19:30):
Yes.
Hunger is a political issue.
It can be solved.
We need the political will.
That's what we need to end hunger.
We don't need more donations.
We don't need to capture more food waste.
We need political will.
And if we have that political will to dothings like raise the minimum wage to a
(19:52):
living wage, then we could end hunger.
If we could, if we, if we had, uh,universal basic income, if we had
free healthcare, if we had adequatechildcare or support for childcare,
food is, for most families, food is themost flexible part of their budgets.
(20:14):
And so they won't go without childcare.
They won't go without a car.
What they will do, and medicine,but what they will do is cut
down on their food consumption.
And often, it's the adults they willfeed their children first, and I
would say that it's predominantly thewomen that wind up sacrificing some
(20:35):
of their own nutrition and consumptionin order to feed their children and
the rest of their families first.
Sam Fuqua (20:42):
So, the demographics of people who are food insecure, uh, we
know it's people who are lower income,higher percentage of people of color.
What else can you tell us about peoplein this country who are food insecure?
Alison Cohen (20:55):
One of the things that we know is that hungers
can be largely invisible.
In this country that we don't, we maywork with, I mean, you've got one of
seven adults, right, that are hungry.
So, you think about it walkingdown the street, there's, you know,
that's, that's quite a lot of people.
The person working maybe at the frontdesk answering the phones, maybe isn't
(21:17):
making enough to feed an entire family.
Maybe they're the only personin their family with an income.
So, I think that, yes, we can talk aboutdemographics, but we, I think we also need
to talk about the invisibility of hunger.
That there are many people that are, um,we think about hunger as traditionally,
right, as, as people with gauntfaces that, that are obviously, look
(21:40):
like they're obviously malnourished.
That's not the case anymore.
Hunger can coexist with obesity.
Hunger can coexist with all kinds ofchronic illness and diet related disease.
It can be, not necessarily aboutcalories, but about the quality of
the food that you're getting as well.
So, that's why you can have hungerand obesity that, that coexist.
Sam Fuqua (22:04):
So, I think about sectors of the economy where, uh, the pay is low.
And one of those is, uh,the food sector, ironically.
Alison Cohen (22:14):
Yeah.
And the, there's an amazing organizationcalled the Food Chain Workers Alliance,
and they have, um, they've done this studyevery ten years or so, and it consistently
shows that people that work in the, alongthe food chain, whether they're serving
people in a restaurant or they're workingin a slaughterhouse in the Midwest, or
(22:35):
picking strawberries out in California,the food chain sector is where you have
the highest number of people who are foodinsecure using food pantries, relying on
SNAP, um, if they can, if they qualify,if they're eligible, and most of them
are working in some way or another.
(22:57):
They're just not making enough, orthey don't have vacation, or they don't
have sick leave and, or they're not,um, documented, but they're working.
So we, we know this, that's a, a studythat has confirmed that people who work
in the food sector are the highest amongall other jobs, have the highest rate
of food insecurity in this country.
Sam Fuqua (23:19):
So, let's, let's go to a big box grocery store.
Take us to a place like,uh, say, super Walmart.
How does that connect to this issue?
Alison Cohen (23:30):
It, it connects really deeply.
It's a, it, it can be a little bitcomplex, but Walmart is largely
responsible for the loss of the smalldowntown in, in rural areas, right?
Many rural areas now Walmart is almostthe only place where you can buy
food, and your hardware supplies, andother things that you used to get from
(23:51):
these individual, um, uh, businessesin, in, in small town Minnesota.
And, by virtue of that, theyhave the corner on the grocery
market and on the food market intheir, in their particular area.
Many people have no choicebut to go to Walmart.
Walmart also is, um, talks a lot anddemonstrates that they give, you know,
(24:18):
millions of dollars every year awayto food banks or to organizations that
are working on, on, um, anti-hunger.
And in fact, the majority of the moneythat they give away comes from the
consumer, the shopper, who, you know,gives a little bit more at the checkout.
Sam Fuqua (24:38):
Would you like to round up?
Alison Cohen (24:40):
Exactly.
And that's a big piece of what,um, of, of, of the money that
they then regift for food charity.
The thing that is, I find the mostegregious, is that Walmart is the
retailer that earns the most, that redeemsthe most from food stamps, from SNAP.
(25:03):
So SNAP is, um, is one of the, uh, oneof the largest contributors to their,
to their income, to their wealth.
There's lots and lots of, um, storiesand this is well documented that often
when you go to, um, work, uh, foryour first day at Walmart, they will
(25:23):
often give you a SNAP form, assumingthat you're not going to be working
enough hours or you're not gonna bemaking enough, and so they want to be
sure that you're able to get on SNAP.
So essentially, our tax dollarsare supporting Walmart's
growth in the stock market.
Alexis Miles (25:44):
And I hear that supported in several ways.
People are spending theirSNAP allotments at Walmart.
Alison Cohen (25:51):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (25:52):
We as consumers are con, rounding up.
Alison Cohen (25:55):
Right.
Alexis Miles (25:55):
And that money goes back to Walmart and the purchase of
food, like food banks and other folksare, are using that money to purchase
food, if I understand you correctly.
That's...
Alison Cohen (26:05):
I'm not sure that they're, I, I don't, I can't speak
to the fact that, that the food banksare purchasing food from Walmart.
Walmart donates a lot of foodand they donate money for
food banks to purchase food.
I don't know that it'sbought back from Walmart.
But many of the Walmart shoppers aresupporting their charitable giving.
(26:27):
Walmart's charitable giving.
At the same time that Walmart is redeemingmore than any other retail sector, they
are redeeming a lot of money from SNAP.
Alexis Miles (26:38):
It reminds me of the thing people say, um, like about
farm workers, they can pick thefruit, but they can't eat the fruit.
Alison Cohen (26:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and there's, um, it's an interestingtime that we're in now for many, many
reasons, but thinking about farm workers,a lot of farm workers, a lot of folks
that are working in the fields go windup using food banks and food pantries in
order to meet their family's food needs.
And, many food banks and food pantriesare reporting that they're not
(27:08):
seeing those folks anymore becausethey're afraid to be in public.
And so, they're having to come upwith different methods of reaching
these people that they're, uh, veryconcerned or not getting enough food
for their families now because they'reafraid to go out into public spaces.
So, it adds an entire 'nother, awhole 'nother layer of, of complexity
(27:32):
and of, um, injustice to, to asystem that's already pretty unjust.
Alexis Miles (27:38):
My jaw is almost dropped, that we are a rich country
and there are people, there are humans,there are children, who are hungry.
Alison Cohen (27:50):
Right.
Alexis Miles (27:51):
It's almost incomprehensible, especially
because we think of ourselvesas a kind and generous nation.
We take care of each other, we takecare of our neighbors, and yet there
are people that go to bed hungry atnight through no fault of their own.
Alison Cohen (28:08):
Right.
And there are millions of us, right,that that do care and that are generous,
and we are giving food, and we're givingour time, and we're giving money, and
we don't want people to be hungry.
And, we're not taking, we're not goingthe, the one step further to understand
(28:29):
what the roots of this problem are andhow we can have an impact on those roots.
That this is not, this isnot the fault of individuals.
This is not a problem ofindividuals not working hard enough.
Not wanting to care for theirown families and children.
(28:50):
It is a structural, systemic issuethat can be solved with political will.
Sam Fuqua (28:59):
Alison Cohen, we appreciate you making the connections
for us and appreciate your work.
Thanks for your time.
Alison Cohen (29:04):
Thank you so much.
It's been a lot of fun.
Alexis Miles (29:06):
It's been enlightening to hear you speak.
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (29:11):
Alison Cohen is a co-founder and director of the National Right
to Food Community of Practice.
We spoke with her at the 2025White Privilege Conference
in Hartford, Connecticut.
This is the first in ourtwo-part series on food justice.
In our next episode, we'll hear fromactivists working to strengthen local food
(29:33):
systems in Mississippi and in New England.
Thanks for listening toWell, That went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
(29:56):
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
And, we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
(30:21):
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
(30:41):
our website sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith the Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
Hunger is a political issue.
It can be solved.
We need the political will.
That's what we need to end hunger.
We don't need more donations.
We don't need to capture more food waste.
We need political will.
And, if we have that political will todo things like raise the minimum wage to
(00:29):
a living wage, then we could end hunger.
Sam Fuqua (00:33):
That's Alison Cohen, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode we talk with AlisonCohen about the conflict between a
(00:56):
food system that has the capacityto produce enough food to feed
everyone, and the fact that 47 millionpeople in the US are food insecure.
This is the first in a twopart series on Food Justice.
Alison Cohen is a co-founder anddirector of the National Right
(01:17):
to Food Community of Practice.
We spoke with her at the 2025White Privilege Conference
in Hartford, Connecticut.
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:31):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:31):
Very pleased to have Alison Cohen with us for this
episode of Well, That Went Sideways!
Hello.
Alison Cohen (01:37):
Hi.
Thank you so much for having me.
Sam Fuqua (01:39):
We're speaking to you at the 2025 White Privilege Conference.
And so to start off, some peoplemight wonder, well, what is the
connection between white privilege,white supremacy, anti-racism work, the
bread and butter of this conference,and, uh, and food insecurity, which
is the, the space you work in.
Alison Cohen (01:57):
Yes, it is.
And I have been, I've spent manyyears pro, well, at least lemme say
the last 10 to 15 years, trying toblend these two inquiries together.
How do we end hunger and whatdoes racism have to do with it?
So, being able to be here at thisconference and really address that and,
(02:18):
and workshop it and talk about it withfolks here has been really important, and,
um, and really an honor to, to do that.
So, what I have been talkingabout here with folks is that
food justice is racial justice.
If you don't have racial justice, youdon't have food justice, and vice versa.
We know in this country that peopleof color, in particular black
(02:43):
communities, are twice as likely tobe food insecure as white communities.
Right now, we have the highest rateof hunger that we've ever experienced
in this country, save for the 18months or so during COVID where there
was a big spike, 47 million peopleon record are, uh, food insecure.
(03:04):
But we know that closer to 50million are using food banks and
food pantries on a regular basis.
So, it's an issue for many, many,many people, and majority of them,
uh, live in communities of color.
And so, when we talk about what'sthe root cause of hunger, we say,
well, the root cause is poverty.
(03:25):
But you can't stop there.
The root cause of poverty is thelegacy of racial injustice that
has been upheld by institutions,policies, practices, and structures
since the founding of this country.
Alexis Miles (03:39):
Well, Alison, especially these days, I think people would
argue with you and say, no, theroot cause of hunger is not poverty.
It's laziness.
If those people just followedthe system, did the right things,
exhibited merit, because this is ameritocracy, they would have good jobs
(04:02):
and they would be able to get food.
Alison Cohen (04:03):
Yep.
Alexis Miles (04:04):
How would you respond to that?
Alison Cohen (04:05):
I would respond by saying that, first of all, more than 50 percent
of people that use food banks on aregular basis, by regular, I mean monthly
because they can't meet all their food,food needs have at least one full-time
working adult in their household.
So, it is not about laziness.
(04:25):
When you live in a, a society like oursthat hasn't changed the minimum wage
since the 1970s, we know that we couldend hunger pretty much overnight if we
changed the minimum wage, if we changed,uh, the way that we honor employment in
this country by paying more, by providing,um, healthcare, by providing other
(04:48):
kinds of benefits, sick leave, a varietyof things that we could do to really
structurally change the, um, ability ofpeople to feed themselves with dignity.
And that's what people want.
By and large, they do not wantto stand in lines or receive a
boxed of food from a food bank.
(05:11):
That's, that's a fallacy.
Alexis Miles (05:12):
So, you're saying it has nothing to do with the character of
people or their worthiness as people?
It has more to do with structures.
Alison Cohen (05:21):
Yes.
And I think that's where the intersection,uh, with white privilege and white
supremacy values comes into play.
The white supremacy values are rootedin ideologies that are, we might
call individualism and paternalism.
And, the kind of argument thatthe poor will always be with us.
(05:46):
And, and that if they could just pullthemselves up by their bootstraps,
forget that they maybe don't even haveboots, but if they could just pull
themselves up by their bootstraps,then they, they wouldn't be hungry.
And that in and of itself is, uh, anexample of the deeply rooted beliefs and
values that come out of white privilege.
Sam Fuqua (06:11):
So, you've said that the root cause of hunger is poverty.
What are some of the, expandon the structural issues or
problems within the food system.
Alison Cohen (06:20):
I will, um, start by saying that we have something
in the US called the Farm Bill.
It comes up every four years.
Although we have not had a newfarm bill now for the last couple
years, it was due two years ago.
We haven't had it for lots ofreasons, um, that have to do with
people not being able to negotiateit around the same table together.
(06:40):
However, the Farm Bill is wherethe funding and the decisions get
made about agricultural subsidies.
And SNAP, which is our food stampprogram, we now call it SNAP, the
Supplemental Nutrition Assistance Program.
Um, to underscore that it's meantto be about nutritional assistance.
It's very, um, insufficient, inadequate.
(07:03):
That's where those decisions get made.
What has happened over many,many decades is that, uh,
agriculture's become consolidated.
We've lost many, many small farmers,and in terms of race, it's black
farmers whose, who have beendispossessed of land, um, throughout
(07:24):
the 20th, the whole 20th century, 98percent of black farmers lost land.
Black communities lost land.
We now, in terms of, we look at thefarming, uh, landscape in the country
today, um, in 1910, it was one out ofevery seven farmers was a black farmer.
Now it's one out of every 78.
(07:44):
And that isn't to say that whitefarmers also haven't, you know, a
lot, land has become consolidated, theindustry has become consolidated, and
so we now have a agricultural systemthat is dominated by corporations.
So, we have a corporate foodindustry, which is underpinned by
(08:06):
the Farm Bill, by our tax dollars,by the policies that are made.
That in turn means that we havefewer farmers growing less food.
In fact, this country grows morenon-food crops than we grow food
crops, and we export most of that.
So, we grow a lot of food, food,food products, agricultural products
(08:31):
that produce ethanol, and that, thatfeed cattle that aren't supposed to
be eating corn in the first place.
So, we have a, a, a food systemthat is set up to benefit a small
number of corporations instead ofthinking about food as a human right.
(08:53):
So, what has happened is that wenow think of food as a commodity.
We don't think of food as a basic humanneed, and therefore a basic human right.
It's become a part ofour commodity system.
Alexis Miles (09:07):
Well, you refer to food as a basic human need, and you
talked about SNAP, which, um, andwhich includes the word nutrition.
Alison Cohen (09:15):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (09:15):
So, is it true that if you don't have adequate nutrition
when you're younger, it has impactson your life when you're older, that
might impact your ability to get a job?
Alison Cohen (09:26):
Yes.
Right.
So, there's this, thisvicious cycle, right?
So, we know that we need good nutrients,good nutrition from day one in order
for our minds and our bodies to develop.
And in the first, and I'm not an expertin nutrition, but in the first five
to seven years of our lives, that'swhere the, where we need the most
nutrition in order to give ourselvesa real, um, head start in, um,
(09:52):
intellectual, emotional, physical growth.
And, when you are in a foodinsecure family and you don't have
access to food, perhaps you don'teven have a grocery store in your
neighborhood, or you're reliant upona food pantry where more often than
not, it, you don't get a choice.
You get what food is available.
(10:13):
And, a lot of it is sort ofthe corporate castoffs, right?
So, the food that didn't getsold, that's heavily packaged, and
heavily, um, preserved and processed.
And so, that is not what you shouldbe eating to grow your, the mind
and body of your, of yourself,of your children at that age.
Sam Fuqua (10:33):
So, what do you say to someone who says, well, I, I
recognize hunger as a problem.
I'm doing my part by contributingto my local food bank.
Uh, I even volunteerat my local food bank.
Alison Cohen (10:45):
I would say that is amazing.
Great.
We really, we as, as I've said before,it would be irresponsible to pull
the plug on food banks tomorrow.
We have a lot of peoplethat are in a lot of need.
And, I would say, it isn't enough.
You can give to your food bank.
(11:06):
You can volunteer at your food bank.
But if you're also not doing the workto understand the root causes of hunger,
and doing what you can to begin to changethat for the future, then it's not enough.
So, give to your food bank, volunteerat your food bank, and then think about
(11:26):
who you're putting in office that ismaking decisions about the Farm Bill.
Think about who you'reelecting in your state.
Think about, um, ways in which youcan understand and learn from people
who have lived experience of hunger.
Sam Fuqua (11:47):
When I think of, uh, large charitable sectors, the United Way,
which gives to a lot of social services.
Uh, animals, the Humane Society.
Uh, how does the food sector compareas a, as a charitable, uh, entity?
How big is it?
Alison Cohen (12:03):
Yes.
So, the, this is only since COVIDactually, but Feeding America, which
is the primary network of food banksin our country - they have more than
200, uh, large scale food banks thatare members of Feeding America - they
have now outpaced United Way as thenumber one charity in this country.
(12:27):
They have more income, they receivemore donations, they're larger in
size than any other charitable sector.
So, the number one charitablesector in our country.
Sam Fuqua (12:37):
And do we know how many people volunteer at food banks?
Alison Cohen (12:40):
I don't know that number off the top of my head, but it's,
um, it, it, it's, yes, it's high.
It's very high.
Sam Fuqua (12:47):
And so, an, a great opportunity for education
and advocacy as you spoke of.
We don't know which food banks aredoing that, which aren't, well,
we might know some that are doingit, but many potentially aren't.
Alison Cohen (12:58):
One of the food banks that we've been working with, um, that
it's actually, they, they're not quite,they're not a regional food bank.
They're a smaller food pantry inDenver is called Metro Caring,
and they're doing amazing work.
They have, um, they're working directlywith their staff to, uh, do this, kind
(13:19):
of, political education where peopleare really cognizant of what the root
causes of hunger are, and what are thestructural issues in the city of Denver
and in the state of Colorado that are,uh, perpetuating chronic food insecurity.
They're really quite admirablein that, in that respect.
And then, they're also bringingthose people together that use
(13:40):
their food pantry to come up withvarious policies and structural
changes that they would like to see.
One example is they've beenworking for a number of years now
on, uh, a community food utility.
So, um, you know how we have publicutilities for water and electricity?
This would be a community ownedand managed utility for food, and
(14:08):
it would require and ensure thateveryone has the right to food.
Meaning that that food is accessible,it's available in their communities,
it is grown sustainably, and thatthey are participating in defining
what their food system looks like.
So there's, there's really admirable workhappening in many of these food banks
(14:32):
and food pantries across the country.
I don't want to vilify them at allbecause we need them right now.
And, imagine if we could harness the powerof all those volunteers and all of those.
Employees at those food banks to beginto shift their own thinking instead of
the, oh, well, the hungry will always bewith us, and so we're gonna always need a
(14:54):
charitable solution to actually if we juststarted advocating for a living wage, or
a thriving wage, then we would probablyreduce the hunger numbers overnight.
But in fact, many food pantriesand Feeding America as the
network, um, does not advocatefor economic justice policies.
(15:20):
They do advocate for SNAP, to protectSNAP, to grow it to, to, you know, but
they say, oh, it's mission creep if westart talking about and advocating for
Congress to raise the minimum wage.
That's not us.
That's a different sector.
I would argue that it's not.
Sam Fuqua (15:38):
Right.
But this is an area of conflictwithin the, the anti-hunger,
uh, movement broadly defined?
Alison Cohen (15:44):
I, I think it is, and you could call it that.
It can be a conflict.
And, I prefer to think of it as acontradiction that we have to hold.
We don't think charity.
We've seen it.
We actually know the data.
We've had food banks for morethan 50 years now in this country,
and they keep growing and growingand growing, and so has hunger.
(16:05):
So clearly, food banking does not, is notreally an anti-hunger strategy, right?
It's a, it might be a short termanti-hunger strategy, right?
We, and we're always gonna needsome kind of emergency food system.
But it's, m, changed from an emergencyfood to, system, to a, sort of a,
defacto grocery store for many,many working people who don't make
(16:30):
enough money to feed their families.
So, it's a contradiction we have to hold.
And yes, it can be conflictual in some,in some cases, and it doesn't have to be.
The food banks that I cherish andthat I champion are those that
are doing a kind of politicaleducation with their volunteers.
Often the volunteers will come in,they learn about food handling, safe,
(16:54):
food safety, handling food safely, um,they learn about how to package things.
Maybe they learn a little bit about howto interact with people who are houseless
or, you know, that kind of thing.
But those that are saying, okay,we need you at this food bank.
This food bank is necessary right now.
And, we also want you to learn a littlebit more about who's hungry in our,
(17:17):
in our city or our, uh, community.
Uh, what do they look like?
Where do they come from?
Where are they hungry?
Who's working?
What are the, what arethe structural reasons?
And what are some of the thingsthat you can do to help change
those structures and systems?
Alexis Miles (17:34):
Could you take a moment and educate me?
And the in, in the short form.
Because from my perspective, don'twe have enough food in this country
to feed everybody nutritious food?
Alison Cohen (17:47):
We do.
In fact, we produce enough food.
This is a, a, a statistic worldwide, butwe have enough food to produce one and
a half times the amount of nutritiousfood that we need for a population, the
population we expect 30 years from now.
You'll often see a lot of, um, youknow, a lot of folks that say, well,
we just need to produce more food.
We need to produce more food.
(18:07):
That's why we need the biggerfarms, and we need the greater
consolidation so we can be moreefficient in how we produce food.
And in fact, as I mentionedearlier, a lot of our farms are
not producing food that we can eat.
They're producing food, feed forcattle, or they're producing corn
that's then turned, and soybeansthat are then turned into ethanol.
(18:28):
So, imagine if we could convert allof that land into more of a patchwork
of smaller farms that are producing adiversity of foods and fruits and animals,
meats, and predominantly, not exclusively,because I like to eat bananas and they
(18:49):
don't grow in New York, but predominantlygrowing food that is then consumed within
the same region where it's, it's grown.
I think that would be a more just foodsystem, and a food system that would
take us to a place where there isgreater equity in access to nutrition.
Alexis Miles (19:15):
So, if I'm hearing you correctly, if people could earn
enough money to live, this would,a, a large part of hunger would take
care of itself because people would beable to buy the food that they need.
Alison Cohen (19:30):
Yes.
Hunger is a political issue.
It can be solved.
We need the political will.
That's what we need to end hunger.
We don't need more donations.
We don't need to capture more food waste.
We need political will.
And if we have that political will to dothings like raise the minimum wage to a
(19:52):
living wage, then we could end hunger.
If we could, if we, if we had, uh,universal basic income, if we had
free healthcare, if we had adequatechildcare or support for childcare,
food is, for most families, food is themost flexible part of their budgets.
(20:14):
And so they won't go without childcare.
They won't go without a car.
What they will do, and medicine,but what they will do is cut
down on their food consumption.
And often, it's the adults they willfeed their children first, and I
would say that it's predominantly thewomen that wind up sacrificing some
(20:35):
of their own nutrition and consumptionin order to feed their children and
the rest of their families first.
Sam Fuqua (20:42):
So, the demographics of people who are food insecure, uh, we
know it's people who are lower income,higher percentage of people of color.
What else can you tell us about peoplein this country who are food insecure?
Alison Cohen (20:55):
One of the things that we know is that hungers
can be largely invisible.
In this country that we don't, we maywork with, I mean, you've got one of
seven adults, right, that are hungry.
So, you think about it walkingdown the street, there's, you know,
that's, that's quite a lot of people.
The person working maybe at the frontdesk answering the phones, maybe isn't
(21:17):
making enough to feed an entire family.
Maybe they're the only personin their family with an income.
So, I think that, yes, we can talk aboutdemographics, but we, I think we also need
to talk about the invisibility of hunger.
That there are many people that are, um,we think about hunger as traditionally,
right, as, as people with gauntfaces that, that are obviously, look
(21:40):
like they're obviously malnourished.
That's not the case anymore.
Hunger can coexist with obesity.
Hunger can coexist with all kinds ofchronic illness and diet related disease.
It can be, not necessarily aboutcalories, but about the quality of
the food that you're getting as well.
So, that's why you can have hungerand obesity that, that coexist.
Sam Fuqua (22:04):
So, I think about sectors of the economy where, uh, the pay is low.
And one of those is, uh,the food sector, ironically.
Alison Cohen (22:14):
Yeah.
And the, there's an amazing organizationcalled the Food Chain Workers Alliance,
and they have, um, they've done this studyevery ten years or so, and it consistently
shows that people that work in the, alongthe food chain, whether they're serving
people in a restaurant or they're workingin a slaughterhouse in the Midwest, or
(22:35):
picking strawberries out in California,the food chain sector is where you have
the highest number of people who are foodinsecure using food pantries, relying on
SNAP, um, if they can, if they qualify,if they're eligible, and most of them
are working in some way or another.
(22:57):
They're just not making enough, orthey don't have vacation, or they don't
have sick leave and, or they're not,um, documented, but they're working.
So we, we know this, that's a, a studythat has confirmed that people who work
in the food sector are the highest amongall other jobs, have the highest rate
of food insecurity in this country.
Sam Fuqua (23:19):
So, let's, let's go to a big box grocery store.
Take us to a place like,uh, say, super Walmart.
How does that connect to this issue?
Alison Cohen (23:30):
It, it connects really deeply.
It's a, it, it can be a little bitcomplex, but Walmart is largely
responsible for the loss of the smalldowntown in, in rural areas, right?
Many rural areas now Walmart is almostthe only place where you can buy
food, and your hardware supplies, andother things that you used to get from
(23:51):
these individual, um, uh, businessesin, in, in small town Minnesota.
And, by virtue of that, theyhave the corner on the grocery
market and on the food market intheir, in their particular area.
Many people have no choicebut to go to Walmart.
Walmart also is, um, talks a lot anddemonstrates that they give, you know,
(24:18):
millions of dollars every year awayto food banks or to organizations that
are working on, on, um, anti-hunger.
And in fact, the majority of the moneythat they give away comes from the
consumer, the shopper, who, you know,gives a little bit more at the checkout.
Sam Fuqua (24:38):
Would you like to round up?
Alison Cohen (24:40):
Exactly.
And that's a big piece of what,um, of, of, of the money that
they then regift for food charity.
The thing that is, I find the mostegregious, is that Walmart is the
retailer that earns the most, that redeemsthe most from food stamps, from SNAP.
(25:03):
So SNAP is, um, is one of the, uh, oneof the largest contributors to their,
to their income, to their wealth.
There's lots and lots of, um, storiesand this is well documented that often
when you go to, um, work, uh, foryour first day at Walmart, they will
(25:23):
often give you a SNAP form, assumingthat you're not going to be working
enough hours or you're not gonna bemaking enough, and so they want to be
sure that you're able to get on SNAP.
So essentially, our tax dollarsare supporting Walmart's
growth in the stock market.
Alexis Miles (25:44):
And I hear that supported in several ways.
People are spending theirSNAP allotments at Walmart.
Alison Cohen (25:51):
Yes.
Alexis Miles (25:52):
We as consumers are con, rounding up.
Alison Cohen (25:55):
Right.
Alexis Miles (25:55):
And that money goes back to Walmart and the purchase of
food, like food banks and other folksare, are using that money to purchase
food, if I understand you correctly.
That's...
Alison Cohen (26:05):
I'm not sure that they're, I, I don't, I can't speak
to the fact that, that the food banksare purchasing food from Walmart.
Walmart donates a lot of foodand they donate money for
food banks to purchase food.
I don't know that it'sbought back from Walmart.
But many of the Walmart shoppers aresupporting their charitable giving.
(26:27):
Walmart's charitable giving.
At the same time that Walmart is redeemingmore than any other retail sector, they
are redeeming a lot of money from SNAP.
Alexis Miles (26:38):
It reminds me of the thing people say, um, like about
farm workers, they can pick thefruit, but they can't eat the fruit.
Alison Cohen (26:46):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah, and there's, um, it's an interestingtime that we're in now for many, many
reasons, but thinking about farm workers,a lot of farm workers, a lot of folks
that are working in the fields go windup using food banks and food pantries in
order to meet their family's food needs.
And, many food banks and food pantriesare reporting that they're not
(27:08):
seeing those folks anymore becausethey're afraid to be in public.
And so, they're having to come upwith different methods of reaching
these people that they're, uh, veryconcerned or not getting enough food
for their families now because they'reafraid to go out into public spaces.
So, it adds an entire 'nother, awhole 'nother layer of, of complexity
(27:32):
and of, um, injustice to, to asystem that's already pretty unjust.
Alexis Miles (27:38):
My jaw is almost dropped, that we are a rich country
and there are people, there are humans,there are children, who are hungry.
Alison Cohen (27:50):
Right.
Alexis Miles (27:51):
It's almost incomprehensible, especially
because we think of ourselvesas a kind and generous nation.
We take care of each other, we takecare of our neighbors, and yet there
are people that go to bed hungry atnight through no fault of their own.
Alison Cohen (28:08):
Right.
And there are millions of us, right,that that do care and that are generous,
and we are giving food, and we're givingour time, and we're giving money, and
we don't want people to be hungry.
And, we're not taking, we're not goingthe, the one step further to understand
(28:29):
what the roots of this problem are andhow we can have an impact on those roots.
That this is not, this isnot the fault of individuals.
This is not a problem ofindividuals not working hard enough.
Not wanting to care for theirown families and children.
(28:50):
It is a structural, systemic issuethat can be solved with political will.
Sam Fuqua (28:59):
Alison Cohen, we appreciate you making the connections
for us and appreciate your work.
Thanks for your time.
Alison Cohen (29:04):
Thank you so much.
It's been a lot of fun.
Alexis Miles (29:06):
It's been enlightening to hear you speak.
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (29:11):
Alison Cohen is a co-founder and director of the National Right
to Food Community of Practice.
We spoke with her at the 2025White Privilege Conference
in Hartford, Connecticut.
This is the first in ourtwo-part series on food justice.
In our next episode, we'll hear fromactivists working to strengthen local food
(29:33):
systems in Mississippi and in New England.
Thanks for listening toWell, That went Sideways!
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
(29:56):
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
And, we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
(30:21):
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
(30:41):
our website sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith the Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.