March 15, 2025 • 40 mins
In this episode, we talk with Robin DiAngelo about seeing whiteness. She is an educator, author, and consultant with over 20 years experience working on issues of racial and social justice. She teaches in the education department at the University of Washington. Her 2018 book, White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People to Talk About Racism, was a New York Times bestseller, and it's been translated into 13 languages. We spoke with Robin DiAngelo at the 2024 White Privilege Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
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Robin DiAngelo (00:08):
I mean, let's be honest, most white people go
cradle-to-grave with no black friendsof any depth, with no sense of loss.
In fact, you know, we measurethe value of our schools and our
neighborhoods by your absence.
Sam Fuqua (00:27):
That's Robin DiAngelo, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with RobinDiAngelo about seeing whiteness.
(00:51):
She is an educator, author, and consultantwith over 20 years experience working
on issues of racial and social justice.
She teaches in the education departmentat the University of Washington.
Her 2018 book, White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People (01:05):
undefined
to Talk About Racism, was a NewYork Times bestseller, and it's
been translated into 13 languages.
We spoke with Robin DiAngeloat the 2024 White Privilege
Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
(01:27):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:31):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:32):
It's good to be here at the White Privilege Conference 2024.
With us is Robin DiAngelo.
Hello and welcome.
Robin DiAngelo (01:38):
Thank you.
Thrilled to be here.
Sam Fuqua (01:41):
To start with, give us a definition for the term white
fragility, a term you coined,and how you came to that phrase.
Robin DiAngelo (01:48):
So, white fragility is meant to capture
how defensive white people getwhenever challenged around race.
So, the fragility part ismeant to capture how little it
takes to get us, uh, defensive.
Just suggesting that white-ness hasmeaning can cause white fragility.
But it's not fragile.
(02:09):
We're not fragile in thesense of being delicate.
Our sensitivities are delicate.
But we're fragile like a bomb is fragile.
You better hold that bomb real carefully,because if you don't, it's going to
explode and people are going to get hurt.
And so, there's, there's a lot ofpower behind that defensiveness.
And I think that white fragilityfunctions as a kind of everyday white
(02:30):
racial bullying, where we make it sopunitive and miserable for, for, in
particular people of color, to challengeus, to challenge our privilege and our
entitlement and our unaware assumptionsand our general racial obnoxiousness.
We make it so difficult that, moreoften than not, they decide not to.
And we can also do that toother white people, too.
(02:51):
I think any white person listeningcan probably think of a time when
they were taken aback at somethingracist another white person said,
but knew it would ruin the dinner.
So, it's a very effective way to keep usin our place, which means white people
on top and other folks on the bottom.
Alexis Miles (03:14):
Robin, you talk about whiteness.
I talk to people even now in the21st century who cannot get a
feeling or sense of whiteness,or what it means to be white.
And they say things to me like, "When Ilook in the mirror, I just see a human."
So, I'm curious about how people mighttake offense at the term white fragility.
(03:37):
Um, those people who, whodon't even see whiteness.
Robin DiAngelo (03:42):
Which is so a classic example of white fragility to be
offended by a very, the very term, right?
The very suggestion.
No, I mean, part of beingwhite is to be normal.
You have race, I don't have race, right?
I mean, that's how I wasraised to think about it.
So, if, if we're going to talk about race,aren't we going to be talking about you?
Why, why would we be talking about me?
(04:03):
Uh, I wasn't taught to see race asa relationship between you and I.
There's no lesser without better.
I was taught to see it assomething that happened to you.
Sorry, I'm just glad that Ihave nothing to do with it.
Right?
So, to suggest that being whitehas meaning, it interrupts some
really precious ideologies thatonly white people have access to.
(04:27):
One of them is meritocracy.
So, if you're going to suggest mywhiteness has meaning, that's going to
suggest that it wasn't just my hard workthat got me where I got, where I am.
You're going to challenge individualism.
Right?
You're not going to let me be anexception, because I'm going to want to
tell you why I'm different and specialfrom all the other white people you know.
(04:47):
You know, and on a really deep level,on a level that's harder for us white
people to admit, you're going tochallenge my position of superiority.
And, that's like at the core ofwho I am and how I see myself.
And, uh, if you ever wondered, like, I'mtrying not to use the word crazy because
(05:08):
I want to be thoughtful, but if you'veever wondered why people are just crazy!
There's a kind of contradiction.
On the one hand, we really don't see it.
We really are raised not to see it.
And on the other hand, oh, we know.
We know, but we cannot admit that we know.
When you put those two thingstogether, it makes us very irrational.
(05:31):
And, that irrationality functionsto protect our positions.
Alexis Miles (05:36):
Is that irrationality a part of the anti-woke movement, so that people
are so adamantly against what's known asthe critical race theory, for example?
Robin DiAngelo (05:47):
Well, Carol Anderson argues in her incredible book,
um, White Rage, that every inchof black progress has been met
with a backlash of white rage.
And, we see what happened, it's,it's been just four years since the
summer of 2020 where there's thatincredible racial reckoning, four years.
(06:07):
And it's literally illegal to have theconversation we're having right now, in
certain educational contexts, in certainstates, illegal to teach black history,
I mean it is swift, and it is powerful.
And, um, critical race theory, it wasjust the most convenient boogeyman for
people whose agenda was, it's not aboutcritical race theory, it's a stand in for,
(06:30):
don't rock the racial hierarchy, right?
Don't rock, uh, uh,question the racial order.
So, those kinds of words like wokeand CRT, they're just really handy
to, uh, silence the conversation.
Sam Fuqua (06:46):
Some friends of mine who don't come from academic backgrounds
tend to, uh, react negatively toanything that sounds academic, sounds
confusing, sounds maybe threateningbecause they don't understand it.
Academic language can beobfuscating in some ways.
Robin DiAngelo (07:05):
Yeah.
It actually is interesting because Ifirst, um, published White Fragility as
an academic article in a journal in 2011.
And, uh, I was trained in academic speak.
I, I know how to do it, fairly convoluted,all of that, um, and yet it went viral at
some point, and it went viral globally.
(07:25):
I started to hear from people, seriously,from around the world, who said,
"You put language to an experience."And I realized, you know, I, I've
got to make this more accessible.
Clearly there's an interest and a need.
And so, for the first time I movedout of academic publishing and went
to a mainstream publisher and wroteWhite Fragility to be accessible.
(07:47):
And I kept telling myself, how do I saythis so my sister would understand it?
She still says it's a little over-written.
But, so yeah, it's notmeant to be accessible.
There's a lot of performance in theway, um, but, but I think if you,
if you really have integrated it,you can explain it to somebody in
language that's accessible to them.
Sam Fuqua (08:09):
Yeah, so I wonder if we, if we had something that wasn't called
critical race theory, but was put inmore plain language, if it would have
been less threatening, I don't know.
Robin DiAngelo (08:18):
I don't think critical race theory was threatening until
they made it threatening because nowthey've moved on to, to DEI and, and
they've also been really clear we wantanything with social justice in the
title or the orientation to be gone.
So, so, you know, I actuallythink they, they, they're gonna
get us no matter what it is.
Sam Fuqua (08:37):
Wouldn't have made a difference.
Robin DiAngelo (08:38):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (08:38):
And, you talked earlier about the backlash.
That there is always one stepforward, a couple of steps back.
Um, that whenever some progress is seento be made, there's a big backlash.
And so, have you seen this cycle repeated?
Robin DiAngelo (08:55):
I'm really clear that unlike the way I was taught, right, I
was taught to think of progress, right,we're always progressing, we're always
moving forward, and you guys can't seemy hands right now who are listening,
but up, up, up, always going up.
And clearly it's more likea power struggle, right?
So, it's more like apush and a pull, right?
Get a little bit, go,go back the other way.
(09:15):
And, that is why we, those of us whoare white can never be complacent.
That's why I say there isn't a choir.
None of us have arrived.
Uh, I have not arrived.
The moment that, that I think Ihave, I'm going to get complacent.
And, I don't think I'm naiveabout systemic racism and white
supremacy, but I did not think wecould be where we are right now.
(09:36):
I didn't think that, wecould go that far back.
We've lost the Voting Rights Act.
We've lost Affirmative Action.
It's illegal to teach black history.
And there's bans in 17, I mean,I, I just didn't think we could.
But, on the one hand, we obviously gotfar enough to cause that much of a threat.
Alexis Miles (09:57):
I am so curious about what keeps you going.
You are a white person.
Um, what keeps you involvedin this kind of a struggle?
Robin DiAngelo (10:07):
I mean, there's certainly things in my own story, my own history.
But once you see it, I mean, youare not in your integrity if you,
if you don't keep going, right?
Who am I?
How do I sleep at night and livewith myself if I'm not aligning what
I profess I believe with how I'mactually behaving, then I'm a fraud.
(10:29):
And that's just notsomething acceptable to me.
One of the ways that whitepeople are socialized is to be
comfortable in a segregated life.
To me, that's the deepest messageof white supremacy, is that there's
no inherent value in knowing orloving or caring about black people.
I mean, let's be honest.
Most white people go cradle-to-gravewith no black friends of any
(10:54):
depth, with no sense of loss.
In fact, you know, we measurethe value of our schools and our
neighborhoods by your absence.
Let's be honest, right?
That is deep, right?
That's deep within me.
And so, once you start to see thatand understand that and try to address
(11:15):
that and start to build relationships,well then you see the humanity.
I just have to picture mybeloved friend Anika's face.
Even though she's not in the room, Ithink, ah, if Anika was watching me
right now, she'd be real disappointed.
You know, I've seen herface crumble in, in grief.
I've seen her cry.
I've borne witness to the pain ofracism on black people in a way that
(11:37):
I was never meant to bear witness.
All of those things sustain you.
And then you have your own history ofoppression and other ways that, that
help you as a way in, not a way out,but as a way to say, wow, if that's
what that felt like for me, it'sunbearable to think I caused anything
(11:57):
close to that for somebody else.
Alexis Miles (12:00):
Now earlier you talked about being working class.
Is that one of the things you'retalking about when you say a way in?
Robin DiAngelo (12:07):
Yeah, and working class was a little bit later in life.
I actually grew up in poverty.
So, periods of homelessness.
Periods of living in our car.
Incredible shame.
Oatmeal, the only food in the house.
My sister not havingshoes to go to school.
I mean, really kind of poverty.
And the shame around that, youknow, I mean it's, it's, it's deep.
Now, I'm very clear that I'm whiteand I was always white and that,
(12:29):
that, that intersects with that.
And so, when you meet white peoplewho say, well, you know, I don't
have privilege, I grew up poor,please send them to me, okay?
Because, you know, look me in the eyeand say it's the same thing to be black
and poor as it is to be white and poor.
But that, that's one key.
I was also female and Catholic.
Right?
(12:49):
Silence, submission, sacrifice,suffer, uh, service, and disappear.
Right?
It was never reinforced about my brainor my thinking or, or anything like that.
So, so there are ways I have in,but again, I was also a white woman.
So, I can't proceed as if youand I, for example, have a shared
(13:12):
experience, because we don't.
Um, but I can certainly access it.
And, in fact, when, I, becauseI'm, I proudly identify as
a feminist, angry feminist.
Why, why would you not be angryif you're paying attention?
But when there's a piece of feedback,perhaps you give me some feedback and
I'm not getting it, and I'm thinking, mmmm, I just switch the roles and I imagine
(13:36):
that, I've just said to a man what yousaid to me, and he's thinking what I'm
thinking, and then I go, oh, I got it.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
And so, when white people say theyneed to feel safe in order to talk
about race, I just imagine a white mansaying to me, I need to be safe before
I can talk with you about misogyny,and I would basically say, F you.
(13:58):
I would immediately getwhat's off about that.
And so, that helped me kind offigure out, oh, well, that's
the same move white people make.
Sam Fuqua (14:06):
So, coming back to some of this earlier conversation.
If a white person says to you, well, Idon't see color, what is a, not a safe
response, but a response that can open upa conversation rather than shut them down?
Robin DiAngelo (14:21):
Well, a couple things.
One, always point yourfinger inward not outward.
So, just start with a story of your own.
You can say I can totally relate.
You know, for a long time I, I didn'tthink I saw color, and then, and then,
and then tell how you've come to see it.
They can't really arguewith your experience.
You're not telling them to have it.
You're not telling them they're racist.
(14:41):
But I could also tell a story aboutone time I was co-leading with a black
man and a white woman in the frontrow said, "I don't even see you as
black." And then he said, "Well one,is there anything wrong with your eyes?
Because I am black.
And of course, you do see it or youwouldn't have said you don't see it.
Uh, but two, then how areyou going to see racism?
Because I, I, I'm black.
(15:02):
I have a differentexperience than you have.
So, if you're saying you don't see meas black, you're basically assuming
I have the same experience you do.
So, you're erasing me in my experience."So, so I might share that story, right?
I'm still not pointing my finger atthe person who, who asked it, but,
but I am offering a counter-narrative.
(15:26):
And I think that's really important.
And then maybe the last thing I alwaysoffer to white people around this one
is, do it for your own healing, right?
Like, I hope that person shifts as aresult of my response, but I, I have
to do this to be in my integrity.
I have to break with the ways I'vebeen socialized to be complicit.
(15:46):
And one of those is, is white solidarity.
One of those ways I've been complicitis the, the unspoken agreement
between you and I that we'll keepeach other's racism protected,
we'll help each other save face.
And so, when I break withthat I'm, I'm healing myself.
Alexis Miles (16:05):
Can you tell us the story of when you consciously became aware that
you're white and that that had meaning?
Robin DiAngelo (16:13):
Yeah, and you know, it's a lot like water dripping on a rock, right?
You see it and then, andthen it goes away again.
And that's the other thing, right?
Like you're at a conference likethis and everything here is to
help us see it and then you go, youleave the conference and everything
out there wants you not to see it.
And actually, there arepenalties for you seeing it.
That's why we can't be complacent.
(16:33):
But actually, it's a perfectquestion because it was reading
Peggy McIntosh's white privilegearticle, which I know inspired Eddie
Moore to found this conference.
I can tell you where I was sitting.
I had like a little bit ofan outer body experience.
I almost felt dizzy.
I, it was just, I still havegoosebumps thinking about it.
And it, it was, I, I just feltwhite for the first time in my life.
(16:58):
Like I, I knew that it, I thinkall white people know at a very
early age, it's better to be white.
There's all that.
But, but we don't move throughthe world feeling white.
And man, I actuallydidn't want to go outside.
I'm like, "Oh my God! Everyone cansee I'm white." I felt like I was just
blasting white from reading that article.
So that would probablybe the turning point.
Alexis Miles (17:21):
And you've talked about values and integrity, that you would not
be seated in your integrity and in yourvalues if you didn't take certain actions.
Can you say more aboutwhat those values are?
Robin DiAngelo (17:34):
Well, um, the status quo is racism.
So, we're all living in a societyin which the default is racism
and the reproduction of racism.
And, and white people haveto recognize that we are
comfortable in a racist society.
Like, I moved through theworld in racial comfort.
It's an exception to be uncomfortableracially, and one that I can choose
(17:58):
and have been warned most of my life.
Do not go out of yourracial comfort zone, right?
So, we start there.
That niceness is not interruptingthe status quo of racism, right?
And Ibram Kendi says, "There's no notracist." And Beverly Tatum, it's like
(18:19):
being on a moving walkway at the airport.
To do nothing.
To just carry on and smile andbe friendly and to be nice, does
not interrupt that status quo.
You have to activelyseek to break with it.
So, it's how do I do that?
And, I want to caution whitelisteners, the number one question
(18:40):
I get is how do I tell some otherwhite person about their racism?
And I always just look that person inthe eyes and say, "Well, how would I
tell you about yours?" Because it's,it's always somebody else's, right?
Um, and so this isn't all aboutI'm going to speak up all the time.
There's a lot of internal excavation weneed to do and honesty we need to get in
(19:04):
touch with, and it's, it's a multifaceted.
Alexis Miles (19:09):
What I'm thinking is, it is possible for you to go through
life without ever talking about race.
And you talked a little bit about there'sa comfort level in being able to do that.
What's in it for you?
Robin DiAngelo (19:24):
Well, there is integrity.
There's also the depth ofrelationships I never would have had.
To be able to recognize another'shumanity is to, is to gain
more of your own humanity.
I think any, any society in whichsomebody is less than, um, can't,
can't serve the society, right?
(19:44):
The loss is just really significant.
But I, I don't like to get into thekind of like economics or whatever.
For me, it's really about humanity.
Yeah, it's just, it's just not okay.
Sam Fuqua (19:56):
Well, one question we always ask our guests, picking up on the title of
the podcast is, uh, tell us about a timeor two when things went sideways for you,
uh, what you learned, how you responded.
Robin DiAngelo (20:08):
Whew.
Okay, so I was asked to give a, akeynote at a con, it was some religious
organization within Christianity.
I don't know if it was Methodist.
It was something like that.
And so, it was this hugeauditorium and I was told, you're
going to be on a jumbotron.
Like that's how many thousandsof people were in this.
And they, the bishop kept wanting tosee my slides and I'm like, nope, you,
(20:30):
you know, you, you asked me to talk.
You either turn it over or not,but I'm not giving you my slides
that you can go through them.
Are you kidding?
No.
So all day long, I'm listening to peopletestify up at the mic about, you know,
you know, like there was a flood andmy neighbors died, but God is great
because I didn't, and stuff like that.
Like I did have some attitude about it.
I'll be honest.
(20:51):
So, I finally get upthere and I do what I do.
And I'm like, okay, there's,there's nothing they can do.
I mean, I'm on a stage,there's thousands of them.
But, following thatkeynote was the workshops.
And I'm like, that's whereit's going to happen.
And sure enough, right.
My workshop was spilling out.
I mean, it was packed to the gills.
People standing, people, no, someof it was the first time anyone had
(21:15):
brought that topic to this group, right?
And there weren't very manyblack people, but whatever ones
were there were in that room.
And I probably was three minutes intact.
Just beginning, and itjust erupt with people.
I mean, every hand going up, peoplewanting to say things, and finally
(21:35):
there was this man, this white man inthe middle of the row, and I called
on him, and he, he, he just startedshouting biblical verses at me.
You know, he had that kind of whereyou're, he's so angry that his neck,
his veins are popping out, and he startsshouting, "John 7:9," or whatever, I
don't follow it, says, whatever he says,you know, and then, "Are you saying Jesus
(22:02):
was wrong?" Okay, right, no, okay, no.
What I'm thinking is, well, I guessit depends on how you interpret
it, but, but, right, like, right,I'm gonna stand here right now and
say, yes, Jesus Christ was wrong.
And I, I'm here to say it infront of this religious group.
So, no.
But it was so, I think I actuallywent like this, "Ha ha ha ha ha." I
think I was just like, "Ah, oh my God.
(22:24):
Oh my God." And the room, of course, wasjust vibrating. I said, "Let's all just
take a deep breath," like just bring itdown. So, and, and I did, and that helped,
and don't ask me where this came from,but I said, "No, Jesus wasn't wrong.
(22:44):
And I'm not saying that Jesus waswrong, but we don't live on the
spiritual plane, we live on thephysical plane, in the here and now.
And in the here and now,there's racial injustice.
So, if we want to usher in the, theworld that Jesus came to proclaim,
we have to address the inequalityin the here and now." Okay.
(23:06):
Seemed to work.
It certainly calmed that down.
This went on for a while and then therewas a white man in the front row that
had had his hand up for a long time.
And I finally, it was likethree minutes before the end.
So, I called on him and I said, "Okay,would you like to have the last word?"
And he said, "Well, yes, I would."And then I thought, oh my God, I just
(23:29):
gave the last word to a white man.
Of course he wants it.
All right, so I'm inside, I'm justgoing, oh my God, how did I do that?
And so this, this man, this white man,stands up and says, "May I lead us in
prayer?" Okay, and the room, yes, okay.
And I'm just like looking down.
(23:50):
And then he launches into, "Dear God,thank you for bringing this righteous
woman to give us the message we needto hear. Thank you God for..." And he,
he goes on thanking God for my message.
And the whole room has to thank Godwith it, has to thank God for me.
(24:11):
And so it was like, oh, thatactually turned out to be
the right person to call on.
I was so kind of blown away by it,given that how intense and how angry
and how much stuff was in the room.
And when he finished this justbeautiful, I had to go hug him.
So, I went up to him and he grabsme around the waist and he goes,
"You know, you just keep speakingtruth to power." That's a big wow.
(24:36):
Uh, and I ran to the cab and Igot, I was shaking when I got out
of there, but I was also like,how did that turn out like that?
I don't know.
Sam Fuqua (24:46):
Oh, yeah.
Divine Providence.
Robin DiAngelo (24:47):
And I'm not religious, but it would be kind of, kind of appear to be.
Sam Fuqua (24:50):
Yeah.
Wow.
Robin DiAngelo (24:55):
But maybe just to unpack what I do.
First of all, I, by taking the breath,I slowed everybody down, including me.
The truth is I'm an atheist, and I,I don't share that often, I've now
just said it on, on the recording.
But, but I used language that he couldunderstand, that could connect, but
was still true to what I believe.
Because being an atheist doesn't mean youdon't believe in, you know, spirituality.
(25:19):
So, those are just two pieces Ithink that really made a difference.
And the other one was just a fluke.
Just luck of the draw.
Alexis Miles (25:27):
Well, I actually like how you said that you believe
that the world Jesus wanted wasa world of equality, of justice.
And I think everybody can agree with that.
Robin DiAngelo (25:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I know enoughto be able to know that.
Right?
Like, oh, if we really followedwhat Jesus preached, I'd be fine.
It's the religion, you know, aroundit that's off, a bit off often.
That was a time when maybe the group was alittle bit out of control, but I can share
a time that I really stepped in and it washere at the White Privilege Conference.
(25:59):
So, it was a year that the two keynoteswere Glenn Singleton in the morning and
Michael Eric Dyson in the afternoon.
So I, I was there all day and then Ihad just come from Michael Eric Dyson's
keynote and he, if you ever heardhim speak, he's just, oh, fantastic.
And I was just buzz, andhe gave me a shout out.
So I was just pumped, right?
(26:21):
And I'm walking down the hall, uh,afterwards and this, these two people
come towards me, a black man and ablack woman, and they smiled at me.
Hi, Robin.
So, okay, clearly I know these people, butto be honest, I did not recognize them.
I don't know who they are.
But I'm pretending that I do, andthey're chatting with me all friendly
and they're referring to some talk I'mgoing to give for them or something
(26:44):
and I'm kind of just faking it along.
And then I, I go on about, "Oh myGod, did you hear Michael Eric Dyson's
keynote? Wasn't it incredible? Oh,he was so amazing." And then the man,
he reaches down and I actually, mymemory is that it was in slow motion.
He reaches down and he gets his nametag and I realized, okay, he knows
that I, I don't know who this is.
(27:06):
And he takes out his name tagand he puts it on and it's Glenn
Singleton, who also gave a keynote.
Alexis Miles (27:13):
Ouch.
Robin DiAngelo (27:13):
And I freaking didn't, and I watched him on a big
screen and I didn't recognize him.
And I went, "Oh, your speech wasamazing too." It was awful and
awkward and I just got out of there.
And then I, I ran and found my friendChristine Saxman, uh, another white
person because I was very freaked out.
(27:34):
But of course, I didn't want torun that at another black person.
And I was like, "Oh my God, youwon't believe what I just did."
And I told her and she gasped.
Okay.
I'm like, "Oh, thank you. You'renot making me feel any better."
But she was like, "Oh my God. Youreally messed up." And I cried.
I just felt so humiliated and I had agood cry and once, you know, once you
(27:56):
cry, like, oh, okay, I could think now.
And then Christine and I put ourheads together and we're like,
okay, so let's just be really clear.
'Cause I'm like, I have to repair that.
So, let's be clear about what.
were the aspects of that that were reallyracist, basically, and racially harmful.
And so, with our best thinking,I kind of got clear about it.
(28:18):
And then, the next morning,I went and sought him out.
And I approached him, and I said, "Glenn,would you be willing to grant me the
opportunity to repair the racism thatI perpetrated towards you yesterday?"
And I very deliberately put it thatway so that he would know that I was
going to own it, rather than explain it.
Would you grant me the opportunitymeans he has a choice if he, if he
(28:41):
said no, I would have accepted it.
And he said yes, you know, andI'll give it to him, he didn't
say don't worry about it.
I said yes.
And then I named all that I understoodabout it from we don't even see you
or recognize you or and any whathe said to me was, "This happens
to us all the time. What you'redoing right now doesn't happen. So,
(29:05):
I appreciate it and we're good."
And then I went to Andrea, whowas the person he was with, and
did this, made the same repair.
And from that and one otherincident, I have my model that
I do share with about repair.
And, one of the things I always askis, "Is there anything else that needs
to be said or heard that we might moveforward?" And, in the incident that I read
(29:28):
about in White Fragility, the woman saidto me, "Yeah, there is something else.
If we're going to work together, youwill run your racism at me again.
So, the next time you do, would you likeyour feedback publicly or privately?"
Which I just think is so fabulous.
It's so radical, right, to saythat to a white person, right?
And I, I, I understood it.
(29:50):
She was saying, you're white.
You, you have it.
You will run it.
So, I'm going to be verygenerous and give you a choice.
How do you want your feedback?
And I just thought it was so cool.
And I said, "Please, publicly. Especiallyif it happens publicly, because other
white people need to see that I'mnot outside of anything I, I, teach,
(30:11):
and it'll give me the opportunity tomodel how to receive that feedback
without defensiveness." Okay.
All right.
Are we good?
We're good.
We're fine.
We're fine.
That's the key.
I don't think it's that we step in it.
It's that, where can you go from there?
And I've had a lot of black folkssay to me, if we can't go there
with you, that's when we don'thave authentic relationships.
(30:32):
We don't expect you to befree of your conditioning.
Alexis Miles (30:36):
How do you receive feedback without defensiveness?
Robin DiAngelo (30:42):
I, I think once you understand systemic racism, you understand
that there is no way to be outside ofit, so that, that like is foundational.
If you don't understand systemicracism, you will get defensive because
the only, the only paradigm you haveis good people versus bad people.
And if you're a good person who cares, youcouldn't be racist based on that paradigm,
(31:03):
so you've just guaranteed defensiveness.
When you understand systemic racism,you understand it's inevitable
that I, that I did step in it.
I mean, um, all this work willcause me to do it less and have
better skills when I do it, butit's not gonna ever totally free it.
And so, you realize, you know, it'sabout me, but it's not about me.
You remember that, you can tell me ifthis is for you, Sam, too, but the,
(31:26):
the deepest growth you've had aroundthis journey is when you messed up.
Like, we don't tend to learnfrom a comfortable place.
And I think that's why the peopleof color in my life that are with
me still, haven't given up on me.
Because rather than do what a lot of whitepeople do, it's just, well fine then.
I mean, if I can't say anythingright, I'm not saying anything at all.
I don't, I don't ever do that.
(31:46):
I just, okay, what can I learnfrom that and do better next time?
Or if I feel defensive, it's notlike I never feel defensive, but
you go take it somewhere else, workit through, and then come back.
Alexis Miles (32:00):
I'm just curious here.
Do you have friends of color, or let'ssay black friends, with whom you can
say, "I'm feeling defensive right now?"
Robin DiAngelo (32:10):
I, I believe that I could.
I could say, "I'm feeling defensive,and I don't want to run that at you, um,
so give me a little time. I will comeback." I did something similar to that.
I got some pretty deep feedback froma friend, and I said, "I'm feeling
really flooded, and so I'm just notgoing to be able to engage and I'm
going to sit with it, but I will comeback." And then you do come back, right?
(32:33):
And, and so far peopleare like, I understand.
Take your time, but, you know, then Iwant to see what, what change there is.
Alexis Miles (32:41):
In my observation, that's one of the hardest things for people
to do, is to sit with defensiveness,or acknowledge it, or even to allow
themselves to recognize that, I, inthis moment, I'm feeling defensive.
Because I, I think we're so dis,
well, in this country, sodisembodied, so out of touch.
Robin DiAngelo (33:02):
Yeah.
I'm glad you mentioned disembodiedbecause usually whenever the, um,
say you gave me the feedback, andyou've barely finished your sentence,
and I'm responding that like superfast, that's usually defensiveness.
And then, there's no, um,quiet space between us.
I keep filling it with my explanationsor that kind of thing, that's usually a
(33:22):
red flag that you're feeling defensive.
So sometimes if I'm maybe facilitatingor mediating, I might say, just hold
it, just sit with it, just sit with it.
Even if you think you were misunderstood,just sit with being misunderstood.
And honestly, you probably weren't.
You probably just don'tunderstand how, how that was off.
(33:44):
So, and if I'm in a white affinitygroup, I sometimes will say,
just to allow yourself to bemisunderstood is a really powerful
interruption to white superiority.
Sam Fuqua (34:00):
I am relating to what you're saying, and I can recognize
it, and I can sit with it.
It's what I, what happens after thatthat's sometimes a challenge for me.
It's sort of like moving on, or "lettinggo," but not really letting go of it.
Robin DiAngelo (34:16):
Yeah, well, I think if you, if you go, come back and say,
this is what I have come to understandfrom the feedback you gave me.
One, that goes a long way for a repair.
Like, if you just say, I'm sorry.
Well, that's better than nothing, butlike, you haven't shown me that you,
you understand why that was hurtful.
But when you say, this is how Iunderstand that was, that was off...
(34:39):
And I actually once, I, I just taughtthe repair model and I had a white
man make a repair with me based on it.
So, I got to be on the receiving endof it 'cause he had been, kind of
around sexism, he had cut me off orwhatever, and when he mapped out the
various ways he understood that thatwas sexism, I was just like, well, if
you got that out of that, no problem.
(35:00):
I would have never had a man breakit down and, and, and acknowledge and
see that, that much nuance in sexism.
So I think, usuallythat, that's the piece.
I bet you if you came back and you said,I just want to, just to put closure there,
I, I just want to check my understanding.
You probably would get moreclosure than you think, right,
if, if you were able to do that.
(35:21):
And the person was like, yep, you got it.
Or, no, no, no, that's not, youknow, or they get to recalibrate you
a little bit if you missed a piece.
Alexis Miles (35:30):
I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm thinking,
yeah, there is a power in being seen.
There's an intimacy in beingseen that allows space for
that kind of coming together.
That's far different from just aconceptual conversation, you know.
It's, well, it's that word, it's embodied.
(35:51):
When something is embodied and deeplyunderstood, and people can't see us,
but we're looking in each other's eyesright now, makes a huge difference.
As you look around this country, inparticular, at all of the backlash,
at everything that's going onrelated to race, what gives you hope?
Robin DiAngelo (36:11):
So I, I would be disingenuous if I
said I had a lot of hope.
But I'm also really conscious thatright now I'm looking in the eyes
of a black woman, and that for awhite person to say I feel hopeless
is really problematic, right?
And that's an example where I could sayif a, if men say to me, I feel hopeless
that patriarchy will ever end, I'd belike, well, that serves you, doesn't it?
(36:32):
So, I try not to express that,um, around my friends of color.
And I, and I, I also know that I, I justcan't give up and be in my integrity.
You, you just can't.
You don't get to.
So, it's in such anincredibly adaptive system.
Look how it adapted.
It's 2020.
Look how it adapted tothe challenges of 2020.
(36:55):
It's kind of stunning, isn't it?
And so, we have to beadaptive, and hang in there.
And one of the things that, um, helps mehave a perspective is, I don't believe
racism is going to end in my lifetime.
Actually, I very strongly don't believeit's going to end in my lifetime.
(37:16):
But I, I am confident that I do lessharm as a result of the work that
I've done, and that I might haveimpacted other white people to do
less harm, and that that's not small.
Because less harm could beone more hour on your life.
That you didn't take all thenonsense home with you and agonize
(37:37):
about whether it was worth it totalk to, you know, how do I do it?
Should I do it?
Is it worth doing it?
Was it me?
Did it happen?
You know, all the things that weatherblack people and other people of color.
All the things, the gaslightingand the high blood pressure and
the heart rate and the thingsthat cause for shorter lifespan.
Those are often not those big policychanges, they're, they're those
(37:59):
interactions with your co-workers or,you know, those are the, the theme of
exhaustion from people of color, you know,around white people, I hear all the time.
So, me doing less harm isn'tsmall and that much I can say.
And so, you kind of gofor those little goals.
You know, well, of course, I'm aneducator, so thank goodness there
(38:21):
are activists who go for the bigpolicy stuff, and that's not my
gift, so, you know, that's okay.
Sam Fuqua (38:28):
Robin DiAngelo, it's great to spend time with you, and thank
you for doing that and for your work.
Robin DiAngelo (38:31):
Oh, you're so welcome.
It was really rewarding.
Alexis Miles (38:33):
Thank you.
It was wonderful spendingthis time with you.
Sam Fuqua (38:37):
Robin DiAngelo is an educator, author, facilitator, and consultant.
You can find her onlineat robindiangelo.com.
We spoke with her at the 2024White Privilege Conference.
Robin DiAngelo will be a keynote speakerat the 2025 White Privilege Conference.
(38:57):
It's happening March 26th throughthe 29th in Hartford, Connecticut.
You can find out more about theconference at theprivilegeinstitute.com.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(39:19):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(39:41):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(40:03):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
I mean, let's be honest, most white people go
cradle-to-grave with no black friendsof any depth, with no sense of loss.
In fact, you know, we measurethe value of our schools and our
neighborhoods by your absence.
Sam Fuqua (00:27):
That's Robin DiAngelo, and this is, Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
In this episode, we talk with RobinDiAngelo about seeing whiteness.
(00:51):
She is an educator, author, and consultantwith over 20 years experience working
on issues of racial and social justice.
She teaches in the education departmentat the University of Washington.
Her 2018 book, White Fragility: Why It's So Hard for White People (01:05):
undefined
to Talk About Racism, was a NewYork Times bestseller, and it's
been translated into 13 languages.
We spoke with Robin DiAngeloat the 2024 White Privilege
Conference in Tulsa, Oklahoma.
(01:27):
I'm Sam Fuqua, co-host of theprogram with Alexis Miles.
Hi, Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:31):
Hi, Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:32):
It's good to be here at the White Privilege Conference 2024.
With us is Robin DiAngelo.
Hello and welcome.
Robin DiAngelo (01:38):
Thank you.
Thrilled to be here.
Sam Fuqua (01:41):
To start with, give us a definition for the term white
fragility, a term you coined,and how you came to that phrase.
Robin DiAngelo (01:48):
So, white fragility is meant to capture
how defensive white people getwhenever challenged around race.
So, the fragility part ismeant to capture how little it
takes to get us, uh, defensive.
Just suggesting that white-ness hasmeaning can cause white fragility.
But it's not fragile.
(02:09):
We're not fragile in thesense of being delicate.
Our sensitivities are delicate.
But we're fragile like a bomb is fragile.
You better hold that bomb real carefully,because if you don't, it's going to
explode and people are going to get hurt.
And so, there's, there's a lot ofpower behind that defensiveness.
And I think that white fragilityfunctions as a kind of everyday white
(02:30):
racial bullying, where we make it sopunitive and miserable for, for, in
particular people of color, to challengeus, to challenge our privilege and our
entitlement and our unaware assumptionsand our general racial obnoxiousness.
We make it so difficult that, moreoften than not, they decide not to.
And we can also do that toother white people, too.
(02:51):
I think any white person listeningcan probably think of a time when
they were taken aback at somethingracist another white person said,
but knew it would ruin the dinner.
So, it's a very effective way to keep usin our place, which means white people
on top and other folks on the bottom.
Alexis Miles (03:14):
Robin, you talk about whiteness.
I talk to people even now in the21st century who cannot get a
feeling or sense of whiteness,or what it means to be white.
And they say things to me like, "When Ilook in the mirror, I just see a human."
So, I'm curious about how people mighttake offense at the term white fragility.
(03:37):
Um, those people who, whodon't even see whiteness.
Robin DiAngelo (03:42):
Which is so a classic example of white fragility to be
offended by a very, the very term, right?
The very suggestion.
No, I mean, part of beingwhite is to be normal.
You have race, I don't have race, right?
I mean, that's how I wasraised to think about it.
So, if, if we're going to talk about race,aren't we going to be talking about you?
Why, why would we be talking about me?
(04:03):
Uh, I wasn't taught to see race asa relationship between you and I.
There's no lesser without better.
I was taught to see it assomething that happened to you.
Sorry, I'm just glad that Ihave nothing to do with it.
Right?
So, to suggest that being whitehas meaning, it interrupts some
really precious ideologies thatonly white people have access to.
(04:27):
One of them is meritocracy.
So, if you're going to suggest mywhiteness has meaning, that's going to
suggest that it wasn't just my hard workthat got me where I got, where I am.
You're going to challenge individualism.
Right?
You're not going to let me be anexception, because I'm going to want to
tell you why I'm different and specialfrom all the other white people you know.
(04:47):
You know, and on a really deep level,on a level that's harder for us white
people to admit, you're going tochallenge my position of superiority.
And, that's like at the core ofwho I am and how I see myself.
And, uh, if you ever wondered, like, I'mtrying not to use the word crazy because
(05:08):
I want to be thoughtful, but if you'veever wondered why people are just crazy!
There's a kind of contradiction.
On the one hand, we really don't see it.
We really are raised not to see it.
And on the other hand, oh, we know.
We know, but we cannot admit that we know.
When you put those two thingstogether, it makes us very irrational.
(05:31):
And, that irrationality functionsto protect our positions.
Alexis Miles (05:36):
Is that irrationality a part of the anti-woke movement, so that people
are so adamantly against what's known asthe critical race theory, for example?
Robin DiAngelo (05:47):
Well, Carol Anderson argues in her incredible book,
um, White Rage, that every inchof black progress has been met
with a backlash of white rage.
And, we see what happened, it's,it's been just four years since the
summer of 2020 where there's thatincredible racial reckoning, four years.
(06:07):
And it's literally illegal to have theconversation we're having right now, in
certain educational contexts, in certainstates, illegal to teach black history,
I mean it is swift, and it is powerful.
And, um, critical race theory, it wasjust the most convenient boogeyman for
people whose agenda was, it's not aboutcritical race theory, it's a stand in for,
(06:30):
don't rock the racial hierarchy, right?
Don't rock, uh, uh,question the racial order.
So, those kinds of words like wokeand CRT, they're just really handy
to, uh, silence the conversation.
Sam Fuqua (06:46):
Some friends of mine who don't come from academic backgrounds
tend to, uh, react negatively toanything that sounds academic, sounds
confusing, sounds maybe threateningbecause they don't understand it.
Academic language can beobfuscating in some ways.
Robin DiAngelo (07:05):
Yeah.
It actually is interesting because Ifirst, um, published White Fragility as
an academic article in a journal in 2011.
And, uh, I was trained in academic speak.
I, I know how to do it, fairly convoluted,all of that, um, and yet it went viral at
some point, and it went viral globally.
(07:25):
I started to hear from people, seriously,from around the world, who said,
"You put language to an experience."And I realized, you know, I, I've
got to make this more accessible.
Clearly there's an interest and a need.
And so, for the first time I movedout of academic publishing and went
to a mainstream publisher and wroteWhite Fragility to be accessible.
(07:47):
And I kept telling myself, how do I saythis so my sister would understand it?
She still says it's a little over-written.
But, so yeah, it's notmeant to be accessible.
There's a lot of performance in theway, um, but, but I think if you,
if you really have integrated it,you can explain it to somebody in
language that's accessible to them.
Sam Fuqua (08:09):
Yeah, so I wonder if we, if we had something that wasn't called
critical race theory, but was put inmore plain language, if it would have
been less threatening, I don't know.
Robin DiAngelo (08:18):
I don't think critical race theory was threatening until
they made it threatening because nowthey've moved on to, to DEI and, and
they've also been really clear we wantanything with social justice in the
title or the orientation to be gone.
So, so, you know, I actuallythink they, they, they're gonna
get us no matter what it is.
Sam Fuqua (08:37):
Wouldn't have made a difference.
Robin DiAngelo (08:38):
Yeah.
Alexis Miles (08:38):
And, you talked earlier about the backlash.
That there is always one stepforward, a couple of steps back.
Um, that whenever some progress is seento be made, there's a big backlash.
And so, have you seen this cycle repeated?
Robin DiAngelo (08:55):
I'm really clear that unlike the way I was taught, right, I
was taught to think of progress, right,we're always progressing, we're always
moving forward, and you guys can't seemy hands right now who are listening,
but up, up, up, always going up.
And clearly it's more likea power struggle, right?
So, it's more like apush and a pull, right?
Get a little bit, go,go back the other way.
(09:15):
And, that is why we, those of us whoare white can never be complacent.
That's why I say there isn't a choir.
None of us have arrived.
Uh, I have not arrived.
The moment that, that I think Ihave, I'm going to get complacent.
And, I don't think I'm naiveabout systemic racism and white
supremacy, but I did not think wecould be where we are right now.
(09:36):
I didn't think that, wecould go that far back.
We've lost the Voting Rights Act.
We've lost Affirmative Action.
It's illegal to teach black history.
And there's bans in 17, I mean,I, I just didn't think we could.
But, on the one hand, we obviously gotfar enough to cause that much of a threat.
Alexis Miles (09:57):
I am so curious about what keeps you going.
You are a white person.
Um, what keeps you involvedin this kind of a struggle?
Robin DiAngelo (10:07):
I mean, there's certainly things in my own story, my own history.
But once you see it, I mean, youare not in your integrity if you,
if you don't keep going, right?
Who am I?
How do I sleep at night and livewith myself if I'm not aligning what
I profess I believe with how I'mactually behaving, then I'm a fraud.
(10:29):
And that's just notsomething acceptable to me.
One of the ways that whitepeople are socialized is to be
comfortable in a segregated life.
To me, that's the deepest messageof white supremacy, is that there's
no inherent value in knowing orloving or caring about black people.
I mean, let's be honest.
Most white people go cradle-to-gravewith no black friends of any
(10:54):
depth, with no sense of loss.
In fact, you know, we measurethe value of our schools and our
neighborhoods by your absence.
Let's be honest, right?
That is deep, right?
That's deep within me.
And so, once you start to see thatand understand that and try to address
(11:15):
that and start to build relationships,well then you see the humanity.
I just have to picture mybeloved friend Anika's face.
Even though she's not in the room, Ithink, ah, if Anika was watching me
right now, she'd be real disappointed.
You know, I've seen herface crumble in, in grief.
I've seen her cry.
I've borne witness to the pain ofracism on black people in a way that
(11:37):
I was never meant to bear witness.
All of those things sustain you.
And then you have your own history ofoppression and other ways that, that
help you as a way in, not a way out,but as a way to say, wow, if that's
what that felt like for me, it'sunbearable to think I caused anything
(11:57):
close to that for somebody else.
Alexis Miles (12:00):
Now earlier you talked about being working class.
Is that one of the things you'retalking about when you say a way in?
Robin DiAngelo (12:07):
Yeah, and working class was a little bit later in life.
I actually grew up in poverty.
So, periods of homelessness.
Periods of living in our car.
Incredible shame.
Oatmeal, the only food in the house.
My sister not havingshoes to go to school.
I mean, really kind of poverty.
And the shame around that, youknow, I mean it's, it's, it's deep.
Now, I'm very clear that I'm whiteand I was always white and that,
(12:29):
that, that intersects with that.
And so, when you meet white peoplewho say, well, you know, I don't
have privilege, I grew up poor,please send them to me, okay?
Because, you know, look me in the eyeand say it's the same thing to be black
and poor as it is to be white and poor.
But that, that's one key.
I was also female and Catholic.
Right?
(12:49):
Silence, submission, sacrifice,suffer, uh, service, and disappear.
Right?
It was never reinforced about my brainor my thinking or, or anything like that.
So, so there are ways I have in,but again, I was also a white woman.
So, I can't proceed as if youand I, for example, have a shared
(13:12):
experience, because we don't.
Um, but I can certainly access it.
And, in fact, when, I, becauseI'm, I proudly identify as
a feminist, angry feminist.
Why, why would you not be angryif you're paying attention?
But when there's a piece of feedback,perhaps you give me some feedback and
I'm not getting it, and I'm thinking, mmmm, I just switch the roles and I imagine
(13:36):
that, I've just said to a man what yousaid to me, and he's thinking what I'm
thinking, and then I go, oh, I got it.
Okay.
All right.
Yeah.
And so, when white people say theyneed to feel safe in order to talk
about race, I just imagine a white mansaying to me, I need to be safe before
I can talk with you about misogyny,and I would basically say, F you.
(13:58):
I would immediately getwhat's off about that.
And so, that helped me kind offigure out, oh, well, that's
the same move white people make.
Sam Fuqua (14:06):
So, coming back to some of this earlier conversation.
If a white person says to you, well, Idon't see color, what is a, not a safe
response, but a response that can open upa conversation rather than shut them down?
Robin DiAngelo (14:21):
Well, a couple things.
One, always point yourfinger inward not outward.
So, just start with a story of your own.
You can say I can totally relate.
You know, for a long time I, I didn'tthink I saw color, and then, and then,
and then tell how you've come to see it.
They can't really arguewith your experience.
You're not telling them to have it.
You're not telling them they're racist.
(14:41):
But I could also tell a story aboutone time I was co-leading with a black
man and a white woman in the frontrow said, "I don't even see you as
black." And then he said, "Well one,is there anything wrong with your eyes?
Because I am black.
And of course, you do see it or youwouldn't have said you don't see it.
Uh, but two, then how areyou going to see racism?
Because I, I, I'm black.
(15:02):
I have a differentexperience than you have.
So, if you're saying you don't see meas black, you're basically assuming
I have the same experience you do.
So, you're erasing me in my experience."So, so I might share that story, right?
I'm still not pointing my finger atthe person who, who asked it, but,
but I am offering a counter-narrative.
(15:26):
And I think that's really important.
And then maybe the last thing I alwaysoffer to white people around this one
is, do it for your own healing, right?
Like, I hope that person shifts as aresult of my response, but I, I have
to do this to be in my integrity.
I have to break with the ways I'vebeen socialized to be complicit.
(15:46):
And one of those is, is white solidarity.
One of those ways I've been complicitis the, the unspoken agreement
between you and I that we'll keepeach other's racism protected,
we'll help each other save face.
And so, when I break withthat I'm, I'm healing myself.
Alexis Miles (16:05):
Can you tell us the story of when you consciously became aware that
you're white and that that had meaning?
Robin DiAngelo (16:13):
Yeah, and you know, it's a lot like water dripping on a rock, right?
You see it and then, andthen it goes away again.
And that's the other thing, right?
Like you're at a conference likethis and everything here is to
help us see it and then you go, youleave the conference and everything
out there wants you not to see it.
And actually, there arepenalties for you seeing it.
That's why we can't be complacent.
(16:33):
But actually, it's a perfectquestion because it was reading
Peggy McIntosh's white privilegearticle, which I know inspired Eddie
Moore to found this conference.
I can tell you where I was sitting.
I had like a little bit ofan outer body experience.
I almost felt dizzy.
I, it was just, I still havegoosebumps thinking about it.
And it, it was, I, I just feltwhite for the first time in my life.
(16:58):
Like I, I knew that it, I thinkall white people know at a very
early age, it's better to be white.
There's all that.
But, but we don't move throughthe world feeling white.
And man, I actuallydidn't want to go outside.
I'm like, "Oh my God! Everyone cansee I'm white." I felt like I was just
blasting white from reading that article.
So that would probablybe the turning point.
Alexis Miles (17:21):
And you've talked about values and integrity, that you would not
be seated in your integrity and in yourvalues if you didn't take certain actions.
Can you say more aboutwhat those values are?
Robin DiAngelo (17:34):
Well, um, the status quo is racism.
So, we're all living in a societyin which the default is racism
and the reproduction of racism.
And, and white people haveto recognize that we are
comfortable in a racist society.
Like, I moved through theworld in racial comfort.
It's an exception to be uncomfortableracially, and one that I can choose
(17:58):
and have been warned most of my life.
Do not go out of yourracial comfort zone, right?
So, we start there.
That niceness is not interruptingthe status quo of racism, right?
And Ibram Kendi says, "There's no notracist." And Beverly Tatum, it's like
(18:19):
being on a moving walkway at the airport.
To do nothing.
To just carry on and smile andbe friendly and to be nice, does
not interrupt that status quo.
You have to activelyseek to break with it.
So, it's how do I do that?
And, I want to caution whitelisteners, the number one question
(18:40):
I get is how do I tell some otherwhite person about their racism?
And I always just look that person inthe eyes and say, "Well, how would I
tell you about yours?" Because it's,it's always somebody else's, right?
Um, and so this isn't all aboutI'm going to speak up all the time.
There's a lot of internal excavation weneed to do and honesty we need to get in
(19:04):
touch with, and it's, it's a multifaceted.
Alexis Miles (19:09):
What I'm thinking is, it is possible for you to go through
life without ever talking about race.
And you talked a little bit about there'sa comfort level in being able to do that.
What's in it for you?
Robin DiAngelo (19:24):
Well, there is integrity.
There's also the depth ofrelationships I never would have had.
To be able to recognize another'shumanity is to, is to gain
more of your own humanity.
I think any, any society in whichsomebody is less than, um, can't,
can't serve the society, right?
(19:44):
The loss is just really significant.
But I, I don't like to get into thekind of like economics or whatever.
For me, it's really about humanity.
Yeah, it's just, it's just not okay.
Sam Fuqua (19:56):
Well, one question we always ask our guests, picking up on the title of
the podcast is, uh, tell us about a timeor two when things went sideways for you,
uh, what you learned, how you responded.
Robin DiAngelo (20:08):
Whew.
Okay, so I was asked to give a, akeynote at a con, it was some religious
organization within Christianity.
I don't know if it was Methodist.
It was something like that.
And so, it was this hugeauditorium and I was told, you're
going to be on a jumbotron.
Like that's how many thousandsof people were in this.
And they, the bishop kept wanting tosee my slides and I'm like, nope, you,
(20:30):
you know, you, you asked me to talk.
You either turn it over or not,but I'm not giving you my slides
that you can go through them.
Are you kidding?
No.
So all day long, I'm listening to peopletestify up at the mic about, you know,
you know, like there was a flood andmy neighbors died, but God is great
because I didn't, and stuff like that.
Like I did have some attitude about it.
I'll be honest.
(20:51):
So, I finally get upthere and I do what I do.
And I'm like, okay, there's,there's nothing they can do.
I mean, I'm on a stage,there's thousands of them.
But, following thatkeynote was the workshops.
And I'm like, that's whereit's going to happen.
And sure enough, right.
My workshop was spilling out.
I mean, it was packed to the gills.
People standing, people, no, someof it was the first time anyone had
(21:15):
brought that topic to this group, right?
And there weren't very manyblack people, but whatever ones
were there were in that room.
And I probably was three minutes intact.
Just beginning, and itjust erupt with people.
I mean, every hand going up, peoplewanting to say things, and finally
(21:35):
there was this man, this white man inthe middle of the row, and I called
on him, and he, he, he just startedshouting biblical verses at me.
You know, he had that kind of whereyou're, he's so angry that his neck,
his veins are popping out, and he startsshouting, "John 7:9," or whatever, I
don't follow it, says, whatever he says,you know, and then, "Are you saying Jesus
(22:02):
was wrong?" Okay, right, no, okay, no.
What I'm thinking is, well, I guessit depends on how you interpret
it, but, but, right, like, right,I'm gonna stand here right now and
say, yes, Jesus Christ was wrong.
And I, I'm here to say it infront of this religious group.
So, no.
But it was so, I think I actuallywent like this, "Ha ha ha ha ha." I
think I was just like, "Ah, oh my God.
(22:24):
Oh my God." And the room, of course, wasjust vibrating. I said, "Let's all just
take a deep breath," like just bring itdown. So, and, and I did, and that helped,
and don't ask me where this came from,but I said, "No, Jesus wasn't wrong.
(22:44):
And I'm not saying that Jesus waswrong, but we don't live on the
spiritual plane, we live on thephysical plane, in the here and now.
And in the here and now,there's racial injustice.
So, if we want to usher in the, theworld that Jesus came to proclaim,
we have to address the inequalityin the here and now." Okay.
(23:06):
Seemed to work.
It certainly calmed that down.
This went on for a while and then therewas a white man in the front row that
had had his hand up for a long time.
And I finally, it was likethree minutes before the end.
So, I called on him and I said, "Okay,would you like to have the last word?"
And he said, "Well, yes, I would."And then I thought, oh my God, I just
(23:29):
gave the last word to a white man.
Of course he wants it.
All right, so I'm inside, I'm justgoing, oh my God, how did I do that?
And so this, this man, this white man,stands up and says, "May I lead us in
prayer?" Okay, and the room, yes, okay.
And I'm just like looking down.
(23:50):
And then he launches into, "Dear God,thank you for bringing this righteous
woman to give us the message we needto hear. Thank you God for..." And he,
he goes on thanking God for my message.
And the whole room has to thank Godwith it, has to thank God for me.
(24:11):
And so it was like, oh, thatactually turned out to be
the right person to call on.
I was so kind of blown away by it,given that how intense and how angry
and how much stuff was in the room.
And when he finished this justbeautiful, I had to go hug him.
So, I went up to him and he grabsme around the waist and he goes,
"You know, you just keep speakingtruth to power." That's a big wow.
(24:36):
Uh, and I ran to the cab and Igot, I was shaking when I got out
of there, but I was also like,how did that turn out like that?
I don't know.
Sam Fuqua (24:46):
Oh, yeah.
Divine Providence.
Robin DiAngelo (24:47):
And I'm not religious, but it would be kind of, kind of appear to be.
Sam Fuqua (24:50):
Yeah.
Wow.
Robin DiAngelo (24:55):
But maybe just to unpack what I do.
First of all, I, by taking the breath,I slowed everybody down, including me.
The truth is I'm an atheist, and I,I don't share that often, I've now
just said it on, on the recording.
But, but I used language that he couldunderstand, that could connect, but
was still true to what I believe.
Because being an atheist doesn't mean youdon't believe in, you know, spirituality.
(25:19):
So, those are just two pieces Ithink that really made a difference.
And the other one was just a fluke.
Just luck of the draw.
Alexis Miles (25:27):
Well, I actually like how you said that you believe
that the world Jesus wanted wasa world of equality, of justice.
And I think everybody can agree with that.
Robin DiAngelo (25:38):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I mean, I know enoughto be able to know that.
Right?
Like, oh, if we really followedwhat Jesus preached, I'd be fine.
It's the religion, you know, aroundit that's off, a bit off often.
That was a time when maybe the group was alittle bit out of control, but I can share
a time that I really stepped in and it washere at the White Privilege Conference.
(25:59):
So, it was a year that the two keynoteswere Glenn Singleton in the morning and
Michael Eric Dyson in the afternoon.
So I, I was there all day and then Ihad just come from Michael Eric Dyson's
keynote and he, if you ever heardhim speak, he's just, oh, fantastic.
And I was just buzz, andhe gave me a shout out.
So I was just pumped, right?
(26:21):
And I'm walking down the hall, uh,afterwards and this, these two people
come towards me, a black man and ablack woman, and they smiled at me.
Hi, Robin.
So, okay, clearly I know these people, butto be honest, I did not recognize them.
I don't know who they are.
But I'm pretending that I do, andthey're chatting with me all friendly
and they're referring to some talk I'mgoing to give for them or something
(26:44):
and I'm kind of just faking it along.
And then I, I go on about, "Oh myGod, did you hear Michael Eric Dyson's
keynote? Wasn't it incredible? Oh,he was so amazing." And then the man,
he reaches down and I actually, mymemory is that it was in slow motion.
He reaches down and he gets his nametag and I realized, okay, he knows
that I, I don't know who this is.
(27:06):
And he takes out his name tagand he puts it on and it's Glenn
Singleton, who also gave a keynote.
Alexis Miles (27:13):
Ouch.
Robin DiAngelo (27:13):
And I freaking didn't, and I watched him on a big
screen and I didn't recognize him.
And I went, "Oh, your speech wasamazing too." It was awful and
awkward and I just got out of there.
And then I, I ran and found my friendChristine Saxman, uh, another white
person because I was very freaked out.
(27:34):
But of course, I didn't want torun that at another black person.
And I was like, "Oh my God, youwon't believe what I just did."
And I told her and she gasped.
Okay.
I'm like, "Oh, thank you. You'renot making me feel any better."
But she was like, "Oh my God. Youreally messed up." And I cried.
I just felt so humiliated and I had agood cry and once, you know, once you
(27:56):
cry, like, oh, okay, I could think now.
And then Christine and I put ourheads together and we're like,
okay, so let's just be really clear.
'Cause I'm like, I have to repair that.
So, let's be clear about what.
were the aspects of that that were reallyracist, basically, and racially harmful.
And so, with our best thinking,I kind of got clear about it.
(28:18):
And then, the next morning,I went and sought him out.
And I approached him, and I said, "Glenn,would you be willing to grant me the
opportunity to repair the racism thatI perpetrated towards you yesterday?"
And I very deliberately put it thatway so that he would know that I was
going to own it, rather than explain it.
Would you grant me the opportunitymeans he has a choice if he, if he
(28:41):
said no, I would have accepted it.
And he said yes, you know, andI'll give it to him, he didn't
say don't worry about it.
I said yes.
And then I named all that I understoodabout it from we don't even see you
or recognize you or and any whathe said to me was, "This happens
to us all the time. What you'redoing right now doesn't happen. So,
(29:05):
I appreciate it and we're good."
And then I went to Andrea, whowas the person he was with, and
did this, made the same repair.
And from that and one otherincident, I have my model that
I do share with about repair.
And, one of the things I always askis, "Is there anything else that needs
to be said or heard that we might moveforward?" And, in the incident that I read
(29:28):
about in White Fragility, the woman saidto me, "Yeah, there is something else.
If we're going to work together, youwill run your racism at me again.
So, the next time you do, would you likeyour feedback publicly or privately?"
Which I just think is so fabulous.
It's so radical, right, to saythat to a white person, right?
And I, I, I understood it.
(29:50):
She was saying, you're white.
You, you have it.
You will run it.
So, I'm going to be verygenerous and give you a choice.
How do you want your feedback?
And I just thought it was so cool.
And I said, "Please, publicly. Especiallyif it happens publicly, because other
white people need to see that I'mnot outside of anything I, I, teach,
(30:11):
and it'll give me the opportunity tomodel how to receive that feedback
without defensiveness." Okay.
All right.
Are we good?
We're good.
We're fine.
We're fine.
That's the key.
I don't think it's that we step in it.
It's that, where can you go from there?
And I've had a lot of black folkssay to me, if we can't go there
with you, that's when we don'thave authentic relationships.
(30:32):
We don't expect you to befree of your conditioning.
Alexis Miles (30:36):
How do you receive feedback without defensiveness?
Robin DiAngelo (30:42):
I, I think once you understand systemic racism, you understand
that there is no way to be outside ofit, so that, that like is foundational.
If you don't understand systemicracism, you will get defensive because
the only, the only paradigm you haveis good people versus bad people.
And if you're a good person who cares, youcouldn't be racist based on that paradigm,
(31:03):
so you've just guaranteed defensiveness.
When you understand systemic racism,you understand it's inevitable
that I, that I did step in it.
I mean, um, all this work willcause me to do it less and have
better skills when I do it, butit's not gonna ever totally free it.
And so, you realize, you know, it'sabout me, but it's not about me.
You remember that, you can tell me ifthis is for you, Sam, too, but the,
(31:26):
the deepest growth you've had aroundthis journey is when you messed up.
Like, we don't tend to learnfrom a comfortable place.
And I think that's why the peopleof color in my life that are with
me still, haven't given up on me.
Because rather than do what a lot of whitepeople do, it's just, well fine then.
I mean, if I can't say anythingright, I'm not saying anything at all.
I don't, I don't ever do that.
(31:46):
I just, okay, what can I learnfrom that and do better next time?
Or if I feel defensive, it's notlike I never feel defensive, but
you go take it somewhere else, workit through, and then come back.
Alexis Miles (32:00):
I'm just curious here.
Do you have friends of color, or let'ssay black friends, with whom you can
say, "I'm feeling defensive right now?"
Robin DiAngelo (32:10):
I, I believe that I could.
I could say, "I'm feeling defensive,and I don't want to run that at you, um,
so give me a little time. I will comeback." I did something similar to that.
I got some pretty deep feedback froma friend, and I said, "I'm feeling
really flooded, and so I'm just notgoing to be able to engage and I'm
going to sit with it, but I will comeback." And then you do come back, right?
(32:33):
And, and so far peopleare like, I understand.
Take your time, but, you know, then Iwant to see what, what change there is.
Alexis Miles (32:41):
In my observation, that's one of the hardest things for people
to do, is to sit with defensiveness,or acknowledge it, or even to allow
themselves to recognize that, I, inthis moment, I'm feeling defensive.
Because I, I think we're so dis,
well, in this country, sodisembodied, so out of touch.
Robin DiAngelo (33:02):
Yeah.
I'm glad you mentioned disembodiedbecause usually whenever the, um,
say you gave me the feedback, andyou've barely finished your sentence,
and I'm responding that like superfast, that's usually defensiveness.
And then, there's no, um,quiet space between us.
I keep filling it with my explanationsor that kind of thing, that's usually a
(33:22):
red flag that you're feeling defensive.
So sometimes if I'm maybe facilitatingor mediating, I might say, just hold
it, just sit with it, just sit with it.
Even if you think you were misunderstood,just sit with being misunderstood.
And honestly, you probably weren't.
You probably just don'tunderstand how, how that was off.
(33:44):
So, and if I'm in a white affinitygroup, I sometimes will say,
just to allow yourself to bemisunderstood is a really powerful
interruption to white superiority.
Sam Fuqua (34:00):
I am relating to what you're saying, and I can recognize
it, and I can sit with it.
It's what I, what happens after thatthat's sometimes a challenge for me.
It's sort of like moving on, or "lettinggo," but not really letting go of it.
Robin DiAngelo (34:16):
Yeah, well, I think if you, if you go, come back and say,
this is what I have come to understandfrom the feedback you gave me.
One, that goes a long way for a repair.
Like, if you just say, I'm sorry.
Well, that's better than nothing, butlike, you haven't shown me that you,
you understand why that was hurtful.
But when you say, this is how Iunderstand that was, that was off...
(34:39):
And I actually once, I, I just taughtthe repair model and I had a white
man make a repair with me based on it.
So, I got to be on the receiving endof it 'cause he had been, kind of
around sexism, he had cut me off orwhatever, and when he mapped out the
various ways he understood that thatwas sexism, I was just like, well, if
you got that out of that, no problem.
(35:00):
I would have never had a man breakit down and, and, and acknowledge and
see that, that much nuance in sexism.
So I think, usuallythat, that's the piece.
I bet you if you came back and you said,I just want to, just to put closure there,
I, I just want to check my understanding.
You probably would get moreclosure than you think, right,
if, if you were able to do that.
(35:21):
And the person was like, yep, you got it.
Or, no, no, no, that's not, youknow, or they get to recalibrate you
a little bit if you missed a piece.
Alexis Miles (35:30):
I'm sitting here listening to you and I'm thinking,
yeah, there is a power in being seen.
There's an intimacy in beingseen that allows space for
that kind of coming together.
That's far different from just aconceptual conversation, you know.
It's, well, it's that word, it's embodied.
(35:51):
When something is embodied and deeplyunderstood, and people can't see us,
but we're looking in each other's eyesright now, makes a huge difference.
As you look around this country, inparticular, at all of the backlash,
at everything that's going onrelated to race, what gives you hope?
Robin DiAngelo (36:11):
So I, I would be disingenuous if I
said I had a lot of hope.
But I'm also really conscious thatright now I'm looking in the eyes
of a black woman, and that for awhite person to say I feel hopeless
is really problematic, right?
And that's an example where I could sayif a, if men say to me, I feel hopeless
that patriarchy will ever end, I'd belike, well, that serves you, doesn't it?
(36:32):
So, I try not to express that,um, around my friends of color.
And I, and I, I also know that I, I justcan't give up and be in my integrity.
You, you just can't.
You don't get to.
So, it's in such anincredibly adaptive system.
Look how it adapted.
It's 2020.
Look how it adapted tothe challenges of 2020.
(36:55):
It's kind of stunning, isn't it?
And so, we have to beadaptive, and hang in there.
And one of the things that, um, helps mehave a perspective is, I don't believe
racism is going to end in my lifetime.
Actually, I very strongly don't believeit's going to end in my lifetime.
(37:16):
But I, I am confident that I do lessharm as a result of the work that
I've done, and that I might haveimpacted other white people to do
less harm, and that that's not small.
Because less harm could beone more hour on your life.
That you didn't take all thenonsense home with you and agonize
(37:37):
about whether it was worth it totalk to, you know, how do I do it?
Should I do it?
Is it worth doing it?
Was it me?
Did it happen?
You know, all the things that weatherblack people and other people of color.
All the things, the gaslightingand the high blood pressure and
the heart rate and the thingsthat cause for shorter lifespan.
Those are often not those big policychanges, they're, they're those
(37:59):
interactions with your co-workers or,you know, those are the, the theme of
exhaustion from people of color, you know,around white people, I hear all the time.
So, me doing less harm isn'tsmall and that much I can say.
And so, you kind of gofor those little goals.
You know, well, of course, I'm aneducator, so thank goodness there
(38:21):
are activists who go for the bigpolicy stuff, and that's not my
gift, so, you know, that's okay.
Sam Fuqua (38:28):
Robin DiAngelo, it's great to spend time with you, and thank
you for doing that and for your work.
Robin DiAngelo (38:31):
Oh, you're so welcome.
It was really rewarding.
Alexis Miles (38:33):
Thank you.
It was wonderful spendingthis time with you.
Sam Fuqua (38:37):
Robin DiAngelo is an educator, author, facilitator, and consultant.
You can find her onlineat robindiangelo.com.
We spoke with her at the 2024White Privilege Conference.
Robin DiAngelo will be a keynote speakerat the 2025 White Privilege Conference.
(38:57):
It's happening March 26th throughthe 29th in Hartford, Connecticut.
You can find out more about theconference at theprivilegeinstitute.com.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(39:19):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
We also have information on our guests,interview transcripts, and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
That's sidewayspod.org.
(39:41):
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Colorado,on the traditional lands of the
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
(40:03):
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website, sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
Find out more at conflictcenter.org.
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