August 19, 2025 • 37 mins
In this episode, we talk with Dr. OiYan Poon about the racial politics of education. She is an education researcher, co-director of the College Admissions Futures Co-Laborative, and the author of Asian American Is Not A Color.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Oiyan Poon (00:07):
Strong communities.
Safe communities.
Healthy communities.
Right?
We have to remember that we share in thosevalues, and if we move, and, in centering
those values, then these messagesto split apart, us apart are harder.
They have a harder job to do.
Sam Fuqua (00:28):
That's Oiyan Poon, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(00:48):
In this episode, we talk with Oiyan Poonabout the racial politics of education.
She is an education researcher,co-director of the College Admissions
Futures Collaborative, and theauthor of Asian American Is Not
A Color (01:06):
Conversations On Race, Affirmative Action and Family.
We spoke with Oiyan Poon at the2025 White Privilege Conference
in Hartford, Connecticut.
I am Sam Fuqua, co-host ofthe program with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:24):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:24):
And we're so pleased to be joined by Oiyan Poon, who is here at
the 2025 White Privilege Conferencewith us in Hartford, Connecticut.
Oiyan Poon (01:32):
Hello.
Excited to be here.
Sam Fuqua (01:34):
Well, welcome.
Uh, Alexis and I heard you speakearlier today, and you said we're
in a new era of segregation.
Why do you say that?
Oiyan Poon (01:44):
Yeah, I think, you know, it's important to name
things as they are, right?
And so, I think oftentimes we think,oh, segregation ended with Brown v.
Board of Education in 1954, and withthe Civil Rights Movement through the
sixties, and we don't have segregatedfacilities anymore, but it's becoming very
(02:04):
clear, even though they call it anti-DEI(anti-diversity, equity and inclusion),
I always like to spell it all the wayout, efforts that, what they're coming
after is wanting to roll everything backto a hundred years ago when really only,
uh, cis had, white men with wealth wereable to have access to, um, resources
(02:28):
and wealth in this country, right?
And, they're not hiding it, right?
One of the executive orders, it was torepeal an LBJ executive order, which was
about prohibiting segregated facilitiesin the workplace and in public facilities.
So, one of the Trump executiveorders recently ended that.
(02:50):
So, it's not like they're makingit a hidden agenda anymore.
They are really questioningeverything that is around integration.
Opening and expanding what we can learnin our schools, having our libraries,
having public facilities and public, um,support systems, um, rolling all of it
back so that the haves are few peopleand the have-nots are many more of us.
Alexis Miles (03:16):
So, does it go too far to say that what they're
implementing is a policy of whitesupremacy, without saying that?
Oiyan Poon (03:25):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
You know, the, the ideology is certainlywhite supremacy and patriarchy.
Alexis Miles (03:32):
Which, they say, is premised on meritocracy.
So, it's not their faultif the people with the most
merit just happen to be white.
Oiyan Poon (03:46):
There is the underlying assumption that there is no talent
among those of us who are not white.
And so, you have to, for them to saythat it's about meritocracy and oh,
these inequalities are just simplyfrom, you know, a lack of talent,
there is a, a racial ideology there,right, because I, I, as an educator,
(04:10):
I deeply believe, and as an, aneducation researcher, I deeply believe
that there is talent and intelligenceamong everyone, cross-cultural,
racial, ethnic lines, which are allsocially constructed as we know, right?
And so, we only hurt ourselves whenwe prevent people in our communities
(04:31):
from pursuing learning together.
Sam Fuqua (04:36):
You know, one of the places this plays out most prominently
is, uh, who gets into collegeand university in this country.
And in 2023, the Supreme Court ended, Idon't know the exact phrase, but, uh...
Oiyan Poon (04:48):
Race conscious admissions.
Sam Fuqua (04:49):
Race conscious admissions.
Oiyan Poon (04:51):
Yeah.
Sam Fuqua (04:51):
Thank you.
In, uh, in college and university.
In addition to the meritocracy myth,if I may call it that, that Alexis just
mentioned, what are some of the othermisperceptions you think people maybe
generally have about affirmative action...
Oiyan Poon (05:07):
Mm-hmm.
Sam Fuqua (05:07):
...and college and university admissions?
Oiyan Poon (05:10):
There's a lot of myths, actually.
I think people presume that collegeadmissions is so easily, that it's
really about individual merit, whenreally we need to flip this around.
College admissions is about thecolleges and universities and what
they want to achieve and accomplish.
It's their needs, right?
And so, they're looking for newmembers of their mission, right?
(05:35):
So, that mission could include,so one of the areas I study is how
college admissions works, right?
And so, you're coming right intomy alley, and I'm gonna go into
the weeds for just a minute.
But what I mean by we need to flipit around and stop thinking about
admissions as whether or not Alexisas an individual deserves or is
(05:56):
entitled to entry into college.
It's actually, the way college admissionsworks is it's about the university or
the college saying this is who we wantand this is what we wanna accomplish.
So, what are those thingsthat they want to accomplish?
We want a championship basketball team.
We want a championship crew team, right?
So, oftentimes when we think of athletics,we think about basketball and football,
(06:17):
where black men and black women areoften found in the athletic teams.
But when really, those are justtwo teams out of dozens, right?
And the other dozens includecrew, lacrosse, golf, you,
you see the theme here, right?
These are all, equestrian, right?
Sam Fuqua (06:36):
Fencing.
Oiyan Poon (06:36):
Squash, fencing, right?
And, they're not all white sportsanymore, but they are certainly
predominantly white, um, sports.
And that is a huge, what theycall institutional priority.
And so, athleticspreferences are huge, right?
Um, you have some of these selectivecolleges want all 50 states represented.
(06:57):
We know race is tied to geography, right?
And so, there's that.
Uh, for these selective colleges anduniversities, men are less likely to
apply these days or to have the academicrecords to compete against women.
And so, there is certainly athumb on the scale for men.
Then there is, the biggest questionI found out in my research was, uh,
(07:21):
a question that colleges ask whenthey do admissions is, okay, great,
we've read all these applicationfiles and these are the students we
want, but can we afford this class?
Because they are given only so muchfinancial aid budget each year.
And so, all of these things,the athletics, the financial
aid budget, it tips the scalein favor of white applicants.
(07:45):
They recruit specifically.
There's a lot of funding invested byeach of these institutions to recruit
in wider, wealthier communities sothat they can bring in wealthier
students to pay their bills, right?
And so, none of this isabout "merit," right?
So, if you really wanna get intothe weeds about this, that's
(08:09):
what college admissions is about.
So, recognizing that there are somany things that were thumbs on
the scale towards white, wealthiermale students, why not have a
consideration of racial diversity?
Whether or not this, you know,these different students are
bringing in different perspectives,experiences, um, understanding their
(08:33):
achievements within the context ofthe inequalities in K12 systems.
But now, what the Supreme Court has saidis, you can write about it and colleges
can read about it, but they can't usethat as part of their decision making.
Sam Fuqua (08:48):
Now, there have been legal challenges to affirmative action,
uh, since the seventies, but interms of these 2023 Supreme Court
rulings, is there data yet to showhow that has impacted admissions?
And if so, how has it?
Oiyan Poon (09:05):
Yeah.
So, we only have one year, and Ialways say as a social scientist, one
year is not a trend, however, we canstill see that there is a significant
impact on black enrollments, generally.
There's a negative impacton black enrollments.
For LatinA, Indigenous, and Asianstudents, it's a very mixed bag.
So, there's been increases insome places in some populations,
(09:28):
and decreases for others.
And for white students, while thereare a handful of places, and when I
say places, I'm talking about the mosthighly selective, or what I like to call
the most highly rejective places thatthere have been a couple of declines
or staying the same, status quo, butwhite students, there is a, a somewhat
of an increase in the enrollmentsat these rejective institutions.
(09:53):
And so, we'll have to wait and see, andI, I, I kind of laugh a little bit because
in destroy, you know, seeking to destroythe Department of Education, one of the
departments in the Department of Educationwas the Education Statistics Unit.
So, will we actually know forcertain what the impacts are?
(10:14):
I worry that we won't have a clearpicture because what we have right now is
just what the colleges and universitieswant to report, and they're doing some
funny number things with their numbersto make themselves look less terrible.
Sam Fuqua (10:31):
How, how do you mean?
Oiyan Poon (10:32):
For instance, I can't remember which institutions, but some
of them are, so the denominator, right?
Like so, uh, what happened to blackenrollment at Harvard, for example?
Let's go with that.
It looks like it stayed the same.
But, when you look deeper into thenumbers that Harvard was reporting
publicly, the denominator was smaller.
(10:53):
They took out, so, it's likewhat percentage of black students
are in the incoming class?
Well, let's take out the internationalstudents from the incoming class and make
the number of students smaller, so thenthe black numbers look higher, right?
And so, there, there are these funnygames that institutions are playing, and
my colleague James Murphy does a reallygood job on his website, uh, through Ed
(11:15):
Reform Now, which is an organization.
So, check that out.
He outlines exactly allthe funny math going on.
You know, before we were like, oh, wellwe'll just wait for the iPads data from
the federal government to come out andwe'll know for sure what's happening.
We don't know if that's gonna happen.
Alexis Miles (11:33):
So, one of the things you were talking about in your keynote,
um, included justice versus just us.
So, people who look out for themselvesindividually versus those people who look
at systems and how systems impact people.
Oiyan Poon (11:49):
Right.
Alexis Miles (11:49):
Um, can you say more about those two groups of people?
Those two worldviews?
Oiyan Poon (11:55):
Yeah.
I think in conflict, right?
I mean, when we talk aboutthings like an affirmative action
debate, that's a conflict, right?
Or any public policy.
I think when you recognize there'sa problem in the world, you can
either decide, well, I can'tchange the rules of the game.
The game is the game.
The system is the system.
And the way you overcome the inequalitiesin the system is just to work harder.
(12:20):
To get me and mine to work harderand to get a fair shake and to
move up in the system, right?
And when we're talking about racialhierarchies, it's, hey, treat
me like a white person, right?
Why am I not being treatedlike a white person?
But, is the goal really about letme be treated like a white person,
or is the goal liberation, right?
(12:40):
And if the goal is liberation,that's the agenda of fighting for
transformative justice, right?
And, in that agenda, it is recognizingthat my experiences are not great.
I'm marginalized.
I feel marginalized.
But, I am connected.
I have linked fate, right?
My experience is not just my experience,it's a reflection of a larger system.
(13:05):
And so, let me examine howthis system is affecting me.
But not just me, others too.
So, if I fight for something,uh, to change, I don't
wanna just fight for myself.
I wanna change the rulesof the game, right?
So, I, I, I was actually anexample, I'll use a disability
(13:25):
justice example, actually.
'Cause I, I've been traveling and Ihave my roller bag at the airport and,
um, there was a very high curb goinginto the airport, and I, and I just,
I have a bum shoulder, so I was like,ah, I can, I can lift it with my other
arm, but this is really a hassle.
And then it's like, whyaren't there more curb cuts?
(13:48):
It's really frustrating when someoneparks in front of a curb cut.
And I found this especially truewhen I was, you know, a, a mom with
a little child and a stroller too, tohave to lift the whole stroller up.
You know, curb cuts came out ofdisability justice movements, right?
They weren't thinking about peoplewith strollers necessarily, right?
But that win for disabilityjustice, we all win, right?
(14:12):
That's a justice agenda.
It's changing systems and the builtenvironment around us, and we all benefit.
It's an abundance mindset versusa scarcity mindset, which is
just like, oh, well, how manydisability, you know, people with
physical disabilities are there?
Like, why do we care?
That's a lot of money tomake a curb cut, right?
(14:33):
Um, and having this very scarcity mindsethappening, and that's just us only
thinking about my gains and my benefits.
Sam Fuqua (14:43):
Well, because this is a podcast that broadly defined, talks
about conflict and conflict resolution,we often ask our guests to talk about a
sideways moment in their lives picking upon the title, Well, That Went Sideways!
and, uh, in your keynote, you hadone that was pretty interesting to
(15:04):
me about a question your daughterasked you and how you handled it.
Now, you could talk about anothersideways moment if you like.
But I, but I, I hope you would sharethat story about your daughter's, uh,
innocent question of a child, smartquestion, but, uh, and then how you as mom
handled it and what happened after that.
Oiyan Poon (15:23):
Yeah.
So my, my book Asian American Is Nota Color, um, sometimes people look
at me sideways when they're like,what kind of title is this, right?
Because I think sometimes,and this especially comes from
some Asian Americans, they'relike, what are you saying?
We're not a race?
You know, there's not aracialized experience?
Um, because I think that is, kindof, a, sometimes a common experience
(15:46):
where people question whether AsianAmericans are actually people of color.
So, that is not the intent of the title.
The book is all about theracialization and the histories and
experiences of, um, Asian Americans.
Um, but the title comes from, uh, whenmy daughter was three, and all of a
sudden this toddler goes, "Mom, are weblack or are we white?" And I was like,
(16:09):
"Well, we're Asian American," you know?
Done.
Easy question.
First race talk with child.
Done.
Good job, mom.
Very wrong, because in the next breathshe turns to me looking quizzically
and she was like, "Hmm, mom, AsianAmerican's, not of color." Right.
And I was like, "Oh, youare so, right." Right?
(16:30):
And, and, here I am, someone who'sbeen studying race and racism for
decades, like 20 years at that point,and I was just totally thrown back.
And, well, you're right, it's not acolor, but there's so many, we contain
multitudes, like, how do I explain this?
There's centuries of history behindwhy we call ourselves Asian American.
(16:55):
Why this, you know, differentnames mean different things.
And yeah, so that's how the book starts,and then it just launches into, well,
since it's gone sideways, I'm justgonna write this whole book for you
child, and hopefully, you know, thestorytelling from people I talk to, um,
that represent, kind of, a "just us"mentality, a scarcity mindset versus a
(17:19):
justice mentality, a, a transformativemindset, um, come through to offer
her really, I wrote it for her, right?
Um, just to be like, here'smy answers to your wonderings.
Um, and maybe someday you'll readit and if other people wanna read
along, we would be so honored.
But yeah, it's, uh, it's about thatconflict within our community too, and the
(17:43):
different choices, I think, historicallythat Asian Americans have had to make
either through a, a fear and scarcitymindset and choosing to hunker down
and want to fight for whiteness, right,versus hey, this is unfair and not just
for me, but for everyone so we're gonnafight for justice and transform the game.
(18:04):
Um, and as I noted and I talked, todayis the anniversary of the Supreme Court
ruling and the Wong Kim Ark case, whichestablished, uh, birthright citizenship
for everyone regardless of race.
And I said, I said in my talk, right,and in the book I talk about how Wong
Kim Ark could have said, like, "Oh,hey, let, uh, white people, black
(18:24):
people, and just Chinese people too havebirthright citizenship." But he didn't.
He fought and said the principleof it is anyone who's born here
should have birthright citizenship.
Now, we know in this 2025 era,Trump is wanting to reverse
this 127-year precedent.
(18:44):
Constitutional right.
Alexis Miles (18:47):
And for those who might not know about the case that you're
talking about, can you say a bit more?
Oiyan Poon (18:53):
Yeah.
You know, there have been, uh, Asianmigrants in what is now known as
the United States since the 1500s.
Um, the Filipinos were first.
But, um, by the 1800s, around whenabolition occurred and civil war occurred,
the ending of slavery, you needed cheap,exploitable controlled labor to also
(19:17):
pit against the now freed black people.
And so, there were a lot ofChinese workers who were brought
in for labor, and, um, then theJapanese and then the Koreans and
Indians and so on and so forth.
And, the sentiment, the anti-immigrantsentiment was very high.
(19:37):
Not unlike now, in some ways.
And then in 1875, Congress passed a lawcalled the Page Act, which banned, um,
Chinese women from immigrating to theUnited States because, uh, there was
a presumption that Chinese women wereprostitutes and would bring disease.
(19:57):
So, this public health connection,right, is also part of it, much like
2020 with COVID and public health.
And then a few years after 1875,in 1882, uh, Congress passed
the Chinese Exclusion Act.
So, that effectively endedimmigration from China.
And, initially it was China, but thenit expanded to other parts of Asia
(20:20):
until the 1920s when something calledthe Asiatic Barred Zone was created.
So, no one from Asia was allowedto immigrate to the United States.
Okay.
Wong Kim Ark.
So, 1882 Congress passes the ChineseExclusion Act and Wong Kim Ark had
been born in San Francisco to Chineseimmigrant parents, much like me.
(20:43):
I was born in Boston to Chineseimmigrant parents a hundred years later.
And, he went to China to visit family,and on his way back, before he left for
China, the bill had not been signed yet.
When, on his way back from China,Con, um, the president had signed
the Chinese Exclusion Act into law.
(21:04):
And so, he's at Angel Island, whichis outside of San Francisco, the
immigration station, and the immigrationagent said, "You can't come in here.
You're Chinese." And he was like, "Iwas born in the United States, and due
to the 14th Amendment, I am an Americancitizen." And, the immigration agents,
the government was saying, well, youknow, that's really only for African
(21:28):
descendants due to the Civil War andabolition and white people, because
that goes back to 1790-something.
Right, with the founding of the nation.
Okay.
So, he fought it, right?
And the Mutual Aid Associations cametogether in San Francisco Chinatown
and said, no, the 14th Amendment shouldapply to everyone, including Wong Kim
(21:49):
Ark, who was born here in San Francisco.
And it went all theirway to the Supreme Court.
The Supreme Court actually triedto figure out a way to only allow
white people birthright citizenship,but they realized they couldn't tie
things up anymore and, and ruled inWong Kim Ark, in our favor, right?
(22:13):
The public's favor, which is,it doesn't matter what race
or ethnicity you identify as.
If you are born in the UnitedStates, you are a US citizen.
So, that's why I'm a US citizen.
My husband's a US citizen.
His parents came from Thailand.
(22:34):
It's, you know, really a foundationalchange in this country, or
affirmation, really, of values right?
And the Trump administrationwants to overturn that.
Sam Fuqua (22:48):
When you said in your keynote, "Few Asian Americans understand who
we really are," was that, uh, historythat you've just, uh, given us some of?
Was that what you were talking about?
Oiyan Poon (23:00):
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, just, um, even thinkingabout my growing up in Massachusetts,
in the excellent public schools,I didn't get to learn anything
about Asian American history.
Um, I learned a very narrow understandingof African American history.
I certainly didn't learnanything about Latino history.
(23:22):
Um, and very, you know, again,a very narrow understanding of
Native American history, right?
Native Americans, genocide,African Americans, slavery, right?
That's pretty much all welearn in public school, right?
And then, I got to collegeand took a sociology of race
class, and that blew my mind.
And then, because, I went to BostonCollege and it was one of the first
(23:45):
years we had a diversity requirementin the 1990s, and I, because of that
requirement, I was like, oh, what isthis Asian American history class?
Let me give it a go.
And that just suddenly, I sound,I'm a very talkative person now, but
back then I was a very quiet person.
I don't think I had the language, right?
I didn't have the language to reallyunderstand my experiences growing up here.
(24:08):
Um, so then taking that classjust opened up the whole world.
I mean, if you remember the movie,The Matrix, it was that kind of
morphous, neo, pill taking momentwhere I was just like, whoa.
Wow.
Okay.
I see the world completelydifferently now.
Alexis Miles (24:26):
Can you give an example of one of those 'wow' moments when you
saw something just totally differently?
Oiyan Poon (24:32):
Yeah.
I think growing up, because mygrandparents, um, were in Boston
Chinatown and we had to go to BostonChinatown all the time as a kid,
and I was always so bored, right?
Um, and I found like the grocery, theChinese grocery stores stinky, or,
you know, I didn't, I didn't have anappreciation really for Chinatown.
(24:54):
And, I think taking Asian Americanhistory class and understanding what
ethnic enclaves, like Chinatown, likeLittle Tokyo, Manila town, um, Devon in
Chicago, which is the Indian community,or Argyle, which is the Vietnamese
community, I suddenly had, like the,oh my gosh, this is our community.
(25:15):
The reason why these communitiesexist is not for tourism or
for just grocery shopping.
It's for survival and thrivingand for joy and coming together
to fight, um, oppression, right?
And so, all of a sudden Istarted thinking about myself,
my community, as fighters, right?
(25:36):
We didn't just roll over andtake violence or harassment or
racism, it's, we have this longhistory of collective resistance.
Sam Fuqua (25:50):
As a parent and a education researcher with a daughter in the
public schools of Chicago, right, giveus your perspective on the conflicts
around equity and school choice.
Oiyan Poon (26:02):
Woo.
That's a dicey conversation.
When we moved into our neighborhood,we're on the northwest side, our house
is right on, the alleyway is the divider.
If you know Chicago, you knowalleyways are really critical.
Our alleyway is the divider betweentwo public schools in the neighborhood.
One is a little over half white.
(26:24):
It was the more desirablepublic school for our neighbors.
And the other one, which we are clearlyzoned into is a Title I. So, low income,
predominantly LatinA public school.
And when we moved to that neighborhood,it was right around kindergarten.
We were talking to the neighborsabout, like, oh, we're probably just
gonna send our kid to, you know, thisschool that we're zoned into 'cause
(26:48):
why go through the hassle of all thepaperwork and figuring out where to,
I couldn't, I have a PhD in education.
I could not figure out theschool choice system in Chicago.
Um, that says something, right,around the systems of inequality.
And so, I'm like, okay.
We'll just go to our, I've, I'vevisited the school, I met the
principal, I met some of theteachers and the other parents.
(27:10):
Seems fine, you know.
Great.
Um, but our neighbors were like, "Whywouldn't you send our child, your child to
the neighboring school?" And I was like,"Why should I?" And they're the, this kind
of veiled conversation, not conversation.
I was like, "What's wrong withour school?" And they were like,
"The demographics." Like, oneperson literally said, "The
(27:31):
demographics." And I was like, "What?
What do you mean?" Andthey're like, "You know.
You know," like in that hushed tone.
And I was like, "No, we're gonnasend our child to, it seems fine."
And the, they were all about, they,they were like, this is how you
lie, steal, cheat your way into thisother, slightly majority white school.
(27:53):
And I was like, I don't need to, right?
But I feel like if I pushed it, theredefinitely would've been a conflict.
And there's always, this is my questionright now, is the closer she gets to
high school, right, the high schoolthere are selective magnet public high
schools in Chicago and she, she andher friends are already talking about
we have to go to those high schools.
(28:15):
We have to go to Lane Tech.
We have to go to Whitney Young.
Michelle Obama went to Whitney Young.
And I'm like, you want to have a twohour train ride at 6:00 AM and two
hour train ride, like train and busand transfers and all this stuff.
And when, to me, I feel likethere's a perfectly fine high
school down the street, right?
(28:36):
It's not famous like these otherones are, but I don't know.
I, I have these conversations, and oneof our neighbors who, um, the family
is black and they send their childto a private Catholic school, and I
was like, why don't you, it's fine.
Our school is great.
And, you know, and she was like, "No,I'm raising a, a black child, a black
(28:59):
boy. He's going to become a black man.I need to give him all the privileges
and benefits that I can provide tohim to deal with anti-black racism."
And I'm just like, I, I get that.
And, and like, I don't know how to,there's these parental choices and
they're so individual and split and theyworry me, right, because then it's like
(29:21):
we we're all split apart and easier tohave schools really decimated, I guess.
Alexis Miles (29:30):
Well, you mentioned being split apart.
Well, we are all split apart.
Do you think some of that is deliberate,like a divide and conquer strategy?
Oiyan Poon (29:40):
Yeah.
I mean, that is at the end of the day,right, that's, there's, we're seeing
it right now for sure with the Trumpadministration, but I would say that
especially with school and educationpolicies, that's been the case, right?
We, as long as we're split apart, we'venever had fully integrated schools.
We've never had fullydesegregated schools.
(30:03):
And, the more we see each otheras strangers, the more we can be
suspicious of each other and be playedwith and, um, the people with power
can maintain power and aggregatepower, and to whose detriment, right?
Alexis Miles (30:22):
Yeah.
I see that a lot in, in two ways.
Like, Asians as the modelminority, so all other minorities
are pitted against Asians.
And then, I'm like, I'm AfricanAmerican and I see it between
Asian Americans and AfricanAmericans, and how that's exploited.
Oiyan Poon (30:41):
Absolutely.
Alexis Miles (30:42):
And you talk about the way news is reported, and I
pay attention to that as well.
And how, um, the voices of a few sometimesare elevated, so they sound like they,
they're, the voices of the majorityof Asians are, are African Americans,
Asian Americans are African Americans.
And it's not the case.
(31:02):
And it's deliberatelymanipulated by the media.
By mass media.
Oiyan Poon (31:06):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and you know, the perfect exampleis, as I shared this morning at the
keynote is, um, you know, with thelawsuit against Harvard and UNC,
people assumed that it was Asiansthat were suing Harvard, and when in
fact there were no Asian plaintiffs.
Um, the plaintiff was actually thisspecies or, um, organization called,
(31:29):
um, SFFA, Students for Fair Admissions,and it was founded by two white people.
Um, Ed Bloom and Abigail Fisher.
And, Ed Bloom has been onthis lifelong campaign against
all of the civil rights wins.
His first big win was against the VotingRights Act, right, and, and, uh, it
gutted the Voting Rights Act in 2013,Shelby versus Holder was the case.
(31:53):
And then after that he was like, oh,you know what, this admission stuff,
people get real emotional and wrangledup of wanting to talk about education.
Um, and he, he and AbigailFisher sued UT Austin.
They lost in 2016.
And when he realized, when Ed Bloomrealized that he was gonna lose
with Abigail Fisher, he realizedhe should use a racial strategy.
(32:17):
Ironic, right, given that he wasusing a racial strategy to fight
race conscious admissions, right?
And so, he went around the countrytrying to find an Asian plaintiff,
um, and no one stepped forward.
But he went forward anyway.
He sued Harvard and we knowthe end of that story in 2023.
(32:38):
Ending race conscious admissions.
But opinion poll after opinion poll,the majority of Asian Americans
support affirmative action.
But, because of these stereotypes of themodel minority myth, oh, Asians work so
hard and they're a racially minoritizedpopulation, and you know, affirmative
action hurts them, when it doesn't, right?
But you lean into the stereotypes and thebiases, and then all of a sudden you're
(33:01):
in this thinking that, oh, it makes sense.
Asians must have suedHarvard, when they never did.
It's such gaslighting,ugh, drives me bonkers.
What it's all about is to try tosplit a, a rainbow coalition, right?
And the possibilities of arainbow coalition, right?
Um, I was sharing with somebody today, oneof the reasons why I love Chicago is the
(33:24):
history of Rainbow Coalition and ChairmanFred, Fred Hampton, and, you know, how he
built coalitions with the Puerto Ricansand white working class, and that's when
you knew he had to go, you know, accordingto the federal government, right?
And so, this is very similar.
You keep people apart sothat there can remain a white
(33:46):
supremacist power structure.
Sam Fuqua (33:48):
You're referring to Fred Hampton, chairman of the Black
Panther Party in Chicago, uh, and thenmurdered in his bed by law enforcement.
Oiyan Poon (33:55):
That's right.
That's right.
By the FBI.
CIA.
Police.
Yep.
With his pregnant wi,um, girlfriend, partner.
Alexis Miles (34:05):
If you were able to give a message to everybody in the United States,
let's go even further, to everybody inthe world, about how people can come
together in the service of all of us,what do you, what message would that be?
About how to come together?
Oiyan Poon (34:25):
We have to be clear about our values.
Everyone wants strong communities, safecommunities, healthy communities, right?
We have to remember that we share in thosevalues, and if we move in, in centering
those values, then these messagesto split apart, us apart are harder.
(34:49):
They have a harder job to do.
Does that make sense?
So, I think part of it is a messagingand reminding people, these are our
values, even in these really scarytimes that are pushing us towards
scarcity, and just, like, I gottajust take care of myself, right?
When really, the only way to take careof myself is to also be in community
(35:11):
with others and take care of each other.
So, I guess my message is one ofa reminder of abundance that we
can only win if we win together.
Sam Fuqua (35:24):
Oiyan Poon, thank you so much for speaking with us.
Oiyan Poon (35:26):
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (35:28):
Oiyan Poon is an education researcher, co-director of the College
Admissions Futures Collaborative,and the author of Asian American
is Not A Color (35:38):
Conversations on Race, Affirmative Action and Family.
We spoke with Oiyan Poon at the2025 White Privilege Conference.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(35:59):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
And we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
(36:21):
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
(36:43):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(37:05):
Find out more at
conflictcenter.org.
Strong communities.
Safe communities.
Healthy communities.
Right?
We have to remember that we share in thosevalues, and if we move, and, in centering
those values, then these messagesto split apart, us apart are harder.
They have a harder job to do.
Sam Fuqua (00:28):
That's Oiyan Poon, and this is Well, That Went Sideways!
A podcast that serves as aresource to help people have
healthy, respectful communication.
We present a diversity of ideas, tools,and techniques to help you transform
conflict in relationships of all kinds.
(00:48):
In this episode, we talk with Oiyan Poonabout the racial politics of education.
She is an education researcher,co-director of the College Admissions
Futures Collaborative, and theauthor of Asian American Is Not
A Color (01:06):
Conversations On Race, Affirmative Action and Family.
We spoke with Oiyan Poon at the2025 White Privilege Conference
in Hartford, Connecticut.
I am Sam Fuqua, co-host ofthe program with Alexis Miles.
Hi Alexis.
Alexis Miles (01:24):
Hi Sam.
Sam Fuqua (01:24):
And we're so pleased to be joined by Oiyan Poon, who is here at
the 2025 White Privilege Conferencewith us in Hartford, Connecticut.
Oiyan Poon (01:32):
Hello.
Excited to be here.
Sam Fuqua (01:34):
Well, welcome.
Uh, Alexis and I heard you speakearlier today, and you said we're
in a new era of segregation.
Why do you say that?
Oiyan Poon (01:44):
Yeah, I think, you know, it's important to name
things as they are, right?
And so, I think oftentimes we think,oh, segregation ended with Brown v.
Board of Education in 1954, and withthe Civil Rights Movement through the
sixties, and we don't have segregatedfacilities anymore, but it's becoming very
(02:04):
clear, even though they call it anti-DEI(anti-diversity, equity and inclusion),
I always like to spell it all the wayout, efforts that, what they're coming
after is wanting to roll everything backto a hundred years ago when really only,
uh, cis had, white men with wealth wereable to have access to, um, resources
(02:28):
and wealth in this country, right?
And, they're not hiding it, right?
One of the executive orders, it was torepeal an LBJ executive order, which was
about prohibiting segregated facilitiesin the workplace and in public facilities.
So, one of the Trump executiveorders recently ended that.
(02:50):
So, it's not like they're makingit a hidden agenda anymore.
They are really questioningeverything that is around integration.
Opening and expanding what we can learnin our schools, having our libraries,
having public facilities and public, um,support systems, um, rolling all of it
back so that the haves are few peopleand the have-nots are many more of us.
Alexis Miles (03:16):
So, does it go too far to say that what they're
implementing is a policy of whitesupremacy, without saying that?
Oiyan Poon (03:25):
Absolutely.
Yeah.
I think that's right.
You know, the, the ideology is certainlywhite supremacy and patriarchy.
Alexis Miles (03:32):
Which, they say, is premised on meritocracy.
So, it's not their faultif the people with the most
merit just happen to be white.
Oiyan Poon (03:46):
There is the underlying assumption that there is no talent
among those of us who are not white.
And so, you have to, for them to saythat it's about meritocracy and oh,
these inequalities are just simplyfrom, you know, a lack of talent,
there is a, a racial ideology there,right, because I, I, as an educator,
(04:10):
I deeply believe, and as an, aneducation researcher, I deeply believe
that there is talent and intelligenceamong everyone, cross-cultural,
racial, ethnic lines, which are allsocially constructed as we know, right?
And so, we only hurt ourselves whenwe prevent people in our communities
(04:31):
from pursuing learning together.
Sam Fuqua (04:36):
You know, one of the places this plays out most prominently
is, uh, who gets into collegeand university in this country.
And in 2023, the Supreme Court ended, Idon't know the exact phrase, but, uh...
Oiyan Poon (04:48):
Race conscious admissions.
Sam Fuqua (04:49):
Race conscious admissions.
Oiyan Poon (04:51):
Yeah.
Sam Fuqua (04:51):
Thank you.
In, uh, in college and university.
In addition to the meritocracy myth,if I may call it that, that Alexis just
mentioned, what are some of the othermisperceptions you think people maybe
generally have about affirmative action...
Oiyan Poon (05:07):
Mm-hmm.
Sam Fuqua (05:07):
...and college and university admissions?
Oiyan Poon (05:10):
There's a lot of myths, actually.
I think people presume that collegeadmissions is so easily, that it's
really about individual merit, whenreally we need to flip this around.
College admissions is about thecolleges and universities and what
they want to achieve and accomplish.
It's their needs, right?
And so, they're looking for newmembers of their mission, right?
(05:35):
So, that mission could include,so one of the areas I study is how
college admissions works, right?
And so, you're coming right intomy alley, and I'm gonna go into
the weeds for just a minute.
But what I mean by we need to flipit around and stop thinking about
admissions as whether or not Alexisas an individual deserves or is
(05:56):
entitled to entry into college.
It's actually, the way college admissionsworks is it's about the university or
the college saying this is who we wantand this is what we wanna accomplish.
So, what are those thingsthat they want to accomplish?
We want a championship basketball team.
We want a championship crew team, right?
So, oftentimes when we think of athletics,we think about basketball and football,
(06:17):
where black men and black women areoften found in the athletic teams.
But when really, those are justtwo teams out of dozens, right?
And the other dozens includecrew, lacrosse, golf, you,
you see the theme here, right?
These are all, equestrian, right?
Sam Fuqua (06:36):
Fencing.
Oiyan Poon (06:36):
Squash, fencing, right?
And, they're not all white sportsanymore, but they are certainly
predominantly white, um, sports.
And that is a huge, what theycall institutional priority.
And so, athleticspreferences are huge, right?
Um, you have some of these selectivecolleges want all 50 states represented.
(06:57):
We know race is tied to geography, right?
And so, there's that.
Uh, for these selective colleges anduniversities, men are less likely to
apply these days or to have the academicrecords to compete against women.
And so, there is certainly athumb on the scale for men.
Then there is, the biggest questionI found out in my research was, uh,
(07:21):
a question that colleges ask whenthey do admissions is, okay, great,
we've read all these applicationfiles and these are the students we
want, but can we afford this class?
Because they are given only so muchfinancial aid budget each year.
And so, all of these things,the athletics, the financial
aid budget, it tips the scalein favor of white applicants.
(07:45):
They recruit specifically.
There's a lot of funding invested byeach of these institutions to recruit
in wider, wealthier communities sothat they can bring in wealthier
students to pay their bills, right?
And so, none of this isabout "merit," right?
So, if you really wanna get intothe weeds about this, that's
(08:09):
what college admissions is about.
So, recognizing that there are somany things that were thumbs on
the scale towards white, wealthiermale students, why not have a
consideration of racial diversity?
Whether or not this, you know,these different students are
bringing in different perspectives,experiences, um, understanding their
(08:33):
achievements within the context ofthe inequalities in K12 systems.
But now, what the Supreme Court has saidis, you can write about it and colleges
can read about it, but they can't usethat as part of their decision making.
Sam Fuqua (08:48):
Now, there have been legal challenges to affirmative action,
uh, since the seventies, but interms of these 2023 Supreme Court
rulings, is there data yet to showhow that has impacted admissions?
And if so, how has it?
Oiyan Poon (09:05):
Yeah.
So, we only have one year, and Ialways say as a social scientist, one
year is not a trend, however, we canstill see that there is a significant
impact on black enrollments, generally.
There's a negative impacton black enrollments.
For LatinA, Indigenous, and Asianstudents, it's a very mixed bag.
So, there's been increases insome places in some populations,
(09:28):
and decreases for others.
And for white students, while thereare a handful of places, and when I
say places, I'm talking about the mosthighly selective, or what I like to call
the most highly rejective places thatthere have been a couple of declines
or staying the same, status quo, butwhite students, there is a, a somewhat
of an increase in the enrollmentsat these rejective institutions.
(09:53):
And so, we'll have to wait and see, andI, I, I kind of laugh a little bit because
in destroy, you know, seeking to destroythe Department of Education, one of the
departments in the Department of Educationwas the Education Statistics Unit.
So, will we actually know forcertain what the impacts are?
(10:14):
I worry that we won't have a clearpicture because what we have right now is
just what the colleges and universitieswant to report, and they're doing some
funny number things with their numbersto make themselves look less terrible.
Sam Fuqua (10:31):
How, how do you mean?
Oiyan Poon (10:32):
For instance, I can't remember which institutions, but some
of them are, so the denominator, right?
Like so, uh, what happened to blackenrollment at Harvard, for example?
Let's go with that.
It looks like it stayed the same.
But, when you look deeper into thenumbers that Harvard was reporting
publicly, the denominator was smaller.
(10:53):
They took out, so, it's likewhat percentage of black students
are in the incoming class?
Well, let's take out the internationalstudents from the incoming class and make
the number of students smaller, so thenthe black numbers look higher, right?
And so, there, there are these funnygames that institutions are playing, and
my colleague James Murphy does a reallygood job on his website, uh, through Ed
(11:15):
Reform Now, which is an organization.
So, check that out.
He outlines exactly allthe funny math going on.
You know, before we were like, oh, wellwe'll just wait for the iPads data from
the federal government to come out andwe'll know for sure what's happening.
We don't know if that's gonna happen.
Alexis Miles (11:33):
So, one of the things you were talking about in your keynote,
um, included justice versus just us.
So, people who look out for themselvesindividually versus those people who look
at systems and how systems impact people.
Oiyan Poon (11:49):
Right.
Alexis Miles (11:49):
Um, can you say more about those two groups of people?
Those two worldviews?
Oiyan Poon (11:55):
Yeah.
I think in conflict, right?
I mean, when we talk aboutthings like an affirmative action
debate, that's a conflict, right?
Or any public policy.
I think when you recognize there'sa problem in the world, you can
either decide, well, I can'tchange the rules of the game.
The game is the game.
The system is the system.
And the way you overcome the inequalitiesin the system is just to work harder.
(12:20):
To get me and mine to work harderand to get a fair shake and to
move up in the system, right?
And when we're talking about racialhierarchies, it's, hey, treat
me like a white person, right?
Why am I not being treatedlike a white person?
But, is the goal really about letme be treated like a white person,
or is the goal liberation, right?
(12:40):
And if the goal is liberation,that's the agenda of fighting for
transformative justice, right?
And, in that agenda, it is recognizingthat my experiences are not great.
I'm marginalized.
I feel marginalized.
But, I am connected.
I have linked fate, right?
My experience is not just my experience,it's a reflection of a larger system.
(13:05):
And so, let me examine howthis system is affecting me.
But not just me, others too.
So, if I fight for something,uh, to change, I don't
wanna just fight for myself.
I wanna change the rulesof the game, right?
So, I, I, I was actually anexample, I'll use a disability
(13:25):
justice example, actually.
'Cause I, I've been traveling and Ihave my roller bag at the airport and,
um, there was a very high curb goinginto the airport, and I, and I just,
I have a bum shoulder, so I was like,ah, I can, I can lift it with my other
arm, but this is really a hassle.
And then it's like, whyaren't there more curb cuts?
(13:48):
It's really frustrating when someoneparks in front of a curb cut.
And I found this especially truewhen I was, you know, a, a mom with
a little child and a stroller too, tohave to lift the whole stroller up.
You know, curb cuts came out ofdisability justice movements, right?
They weren't thinking about peoplewith strollers necessarily, right?
But that win for disabilityjustice, we all win, right?
(14:12):
That's a justice agenda.
It's changing systems and the builtenvironment around us, and we all benefit.
It's an abundance mindset versusa scarcity mindset, which is
just like, oh, well, how manydisability, you know, people with
physical disabilities are there?
Like, why do we care?
That's a lot of money tomake a curb cut, right?
(14:33):
Um, and having this very scarcity mindsethappening, and that's just us only
thinking about my gains and my benefits.
Sam Fuqua (14:43):
Well, because this is a podcast that broadly defined, talks
about conflict and conflict resolution,we often ask our guests to talk about a
sideways moment in their lives picking upon the title, Well, That Went Sideways!
and, uh, in your keynote, you hadone that was pretty interesting to
(15:04):
me about a question your daughterasked you and how you handled it.
Now, you could talk about anothersideways moment if you like.
But I, but I, I hope you would sharethat story about your daughter's, uh,
innocent question of a child, smartquestion, but, uh, and then how you as mom
handled it and what happened after that.
Oiyan Poon (15:23):
Yeah.
So my, my book Asian American Is Nota Color, um, sometimes people look
at me sideways when they're like,what kind of title is this, right?
Because I think sometimes,and this especially comes from
some Asian Americans, they'relike, what are you saying?
We're not a race?
You know, there's not aracialized experience?
Um, because I think that is, kindof, a, sometimes a common experience
(15:46):
where people question whether AsianAmericans are actually people of color.
So, that is not the intent of the title.
The book is all about theracialization and the histories and
experiences of, um, Asian Americans.
Um, but the title comes from, uh, whenmy daughter was three, and all of a
sudden this toddler goes, "Mom, are weblack or are we white?" And I was like,
(16:09):
"Well, we're Asian American," you know?
Done.
Easy question.
First race talk with child.
Done.
Good job, mom.
Very wrong, because in the next breathshe turns to me looking quizzically
and she was like, "Hmm, mom, AsianAmerican's, not of color." Right.
And I was like, "Oh, youare so, right." Right?
(16:30):
And, and, here I am, someone who'sbeen studying race and racism for
decades, like 20 years at that point,and I was just totally thrown back.
And, well, you're right, it's not acolor, but there's so many, we contain
multitudes, like, how do I explain this?
There's centuries of history behindwhy we call ourselves Asian American.
(16:55):
Why this, you know, differentnames mean different things.
And yeah, so that's how the book starts,and then it just launches into, well,
since it's gone sideways, I'm justgonna write this whole book for you
child, and hopefully, you know, thestorytelling from people I talk to, um,
that represent, kind of, a "just us"mentality, a scarcity mindset versus a
(17:19):
justice mentality, a, a transformativemindset, um, come through to offer
her really, I wrote it for her, right?
Um, just to be like, here'smy answers to your wonderings.
Um, and maybe someday you'll readit and if other people wanna read
along, we would be so honored.
But yeah, it's, uh, it's about thatconflict within our community too, and the
(17:43):
different choices, I think, historicallythat Asian Americans have had to make
either through a, a fear and scarcitymindset and choosing to hunker down
and want to fight for whiteness, right,versus hey, this is unfair and not just
for me, but for everyone so we're gonnafight for justice and transform the game.
(18:04):
Um, and as I noted and I talked, todayis the anniversary of the Supreme Court
ruling and the Wong Kim Ark case, whichestablished, uh, birthright citizenship
for everyone regardless of race.
And I said, I said in my talk, right,and in the book I talk about how Wong
Kim Ark could have said, like, "Oh,hey, let, uh, white people, black
(18:24):
people, and just Chinese people too havebirthright citizenship." But he didn't.
He fought and said the principleof it is anyone who's born here
should have birthright citizenship.
Now, we know in this 2025 era,Trump is wanting to reverse
this 127-year precedent.
(18:44):
Constitutional right.
Alexis Miles (18:47):
And for those who might not know about the case that you're
talking about, can you say a bit more?
Oiyan Poon (18:53):
Yeah.
You know, there have been, uh, Asianmigrants in what is now known as
the United States since the 1500s.
Um, the Filipinos were first.
But, um, by the 1800s, around whenabolition occurred and civil war occurred,
the ending of slavery, you needed cheap,exploitable controlled labor to also
(19:17):
pit against the now freed black people.
And so, there were a lot ofChinese workers who were brought
in for labor, and, um, then theJapanese and then the Koreans and
Indians and so on and so forth.
And, the sentiment, the anti-immigrantsentiment was very high.
(19:37):
Not unlike now, in some ways.
And then in 1875, Congress passed a lawcalled the Page Act, which banned, um,
Chinese women from immigrating to theUnited States because, uh, there was
a presumption that Chinese women wereprostitutes and would bring disease.
(19:57):
So, this public health connection,right, is also part of it, much like
2020 with COVID and public health.
And then a few years after 1875,in 1882, uh, Congress passed
the Chinese Exclusion Act.
So, that effectively endedimmigration from China.
And, initially it was China, but thenit expanded to other parts of Asia
(20:20):
until the 1920s when something calledthe Asiatic Barred Zone was created.
So, no one from Asia was allowedto immigrate to the United States.
Okay.
Wong Kim Ark.
So, 1882 Congress passes the ChineseExclusion Act and Wong Kim Ark had
been born in San Francisco to Chineseimmigrant parents, much like me.
(20:43):
I was born in Boston to Chineseimmigrant parents a hundred years later.
And, he went to China to visit family,and on his way back, before he left for
China, the bill had not been signed yet.
When, on his way back from China,Con, um, the president had signed
the Chinese Exclusion Act into law.
(21:04):
And so, he's at Angel Island, whichis outside of San Francisco, the
immigration station, and the immigrationagent said, "You can't come in here.
You're Chinese." And he was like, "Iwas born in the United States, and due
to the 14th Amendment, I am an Americancitizen." And, the immigration agents,
the government was saying, well, youknow, that's really only for African
(21:28):
descendants due to the Civil War andabolition and white people, because
that goes back to 1790-something.
Right, with the founding of the nation.
Okay.
So, he fought it, right?
And the Mutual Aid Associations cametogether in San Francisco Chinatown
and said, no, the 14th Amendment shouldapply to everyone, including Wong Kim
(21:49):
Ark, who was born here in San Francisco.
And it went all theirway to the Supreme Court.
The Supreme Court actually triedto figure out a way to only allow
white people birthright citizenship,but they realized they couldn't tie
things up anymore and, and ruled inWong Kim Ark, in our favor, right?
(22:13):
The public's favor, which is,it doesn't matter what race
or ethnicity you identify as.
If you are born in the UnitedStates, you are a US citizen.
So, that's why I'm a US citizen.
My husband's a US citizen.
His parents came from Thailand.
(22:34):
It's, you know, really a foundationalchange in this country, or
affirmation, really, of values right?
And the Trump administrationwants to overturn that.
Sam Fuqua (22:48):
When you said in your keynote, "Few Asian Americans understand who
we really are," was that, uh, historythat you've just, uh, given us some of?
Was that what you were talking about?
Oiyan Poon (23:00):
Yes, absolutely.
I mean, just, um, even thinkingabout my growing up in Massachusetts,
in the excellent public schools,I didn't get to learn anything
about Asian American history.
Um, I learned a very narrow understandingof African American history.
I certainly didn't learnanything about Latino history.
(23:22):
Um, and very, you know, again,a very narrow understanding of
Native American history, right?
Native Americans, genocide,African Americans, slavery, right?
That's pretty much all welearn in public school, right?
And then, I got to collegeand took a sociology of race
class, and that blew my mind.
And then, because, I went to BostonCollege and it was one of the first
(23:45):
years we had a diversity requirementin the 1990s, and I, because of that
requirement, I was like, oh, what isthis Asian American history class?
Let me give it a go.
And that just suddenly, I sound,I'm a very talkative person now, but
back then I was a very quiet person.
I don't think I had the language, right?
I didn't have the language to reallyunderstand my experiences growing up here.
(24:08):
Um, so then taking that classjust opened up the whole world.
I mean, if you remember the movie,The Matrix, it was that kind of
morphous, neo, pill taking momentwhere I was just like, whoa.
Wow.
Okay.
I see the world completelydifferently now.
Alexis Miles (24:26):
Can you give an example of one of those 'wow' moments when you
saw something just totally differently?
Oiyan Poon (24:32):
Yeah.
I think growing up, because mygrandparents, um, were in Boston
Chinatown and we had to go to BostonChinatown all the time as a kid,
and I was always so bored, right?
Um, and I found like the grocery, theChinese grocery stores stinky, or,
you know, I didn't, I didn't have anappreciation really for Chinatown.
(24:54):
And, I think taking Asian Americanhistory class and understanding what
ethnic enclaves, like Chinatown, likeLittle Tokyo, Manila town, um, Devon in
Chicago, which is the Indian community,or Argyle, which is the Vietnamese
community, I suddenly had, like the,oh my gosh, this is our community.
(25:15):
The reason why these communitiesexist is not for tourism or
for just grocery shopping.
It's for survival and thrivingand for joy and coming together
to fight, um, oppression, right?
And so, all of a sudden Istarted thinking about myself,
my community, as fighters, right?
(25:36):
We didn't just roll over andtake violence or harassment or
racism, it's, we have this longhistory of collective resistance.
Sam Fuqua (25:50):
As a parent and a education researcher with a daughter in the
public schools of Chicago, right, giveus your perspective on the conflicts
around equity and school choice.
Oiyan Poon (26:02):
Woo.
That's a dicey conversation.
When we moved into our neighborhood,we're on the northwest side, our house
is right on, the alleyway is the divider.
If you know Chicago, you knowalleyways are really critical.
Our alleyway is the divider betweentwo public schools in the neighborhood.
One is a little over half white.
(26:24):
It was the more desirablepublic school for our neighbors.
And the other one, which we are clearlyzoned into is a Title I. So, low income,
predominantly LatinA public school.
And when we moved to that neighborhood,it was right around kindergarten.
We were talking to the neighborsabout, like, oh, we're probably just
gonna send our kid to, you know, thisschool that we're zoned into 'cause
(26:48):
why go through the hassle of all thepaperwork and figuring out where to,
I couldn't, I have a PhD in education.
I could not figure out theschool choice system in Chicago.
Um, that says something, right,around the systems of inequality.
And so, I'm like, okay.
We'll just go to our, I've, I'vevisited the school, I met the
principal, I met some of theteachers and the other parents.
(27:10):
Seems fine, you know.
Great.
Um, but our neighbors were like, "Whywouldn't you send our child, your child to
the neighboring school?" And I was like,"Why should I?" And they're the, this kind
of veiled conversation, not conversation.
I was like, "What's wrong withour school?" And they were like,
"The demographics." Like, oneperson literally said, "The
(27:31):
demographics." And I was like, "What?
What do you mean?" Andthey're like, "You know.
You know," like in that hushed tone.
And I was like, "No, we're gonnasend our child to, it seems fine."
And the, they were all about, they,they were like, this is how you
lie, steal, cheat your way into thisother, slightly majority white school.
(27:53):
And I was like, I don't need to, right?
But I feel like if I pushed it, theredefinitely would've been a conflict.
And there's always, this is my questionright now, is the closer she gets to
high school, right, the high schoolthere are selective magnet public high
schools in Chicago and she, she andher friends are already talking about
we have to go to those high schools.
(28:15):
We have to go to Lane Tech.
We have to go to Whitney Young.
Michelle Obama went to Whitney Young.
And I'm like, you want to have a twohour train ride at 6:00 AM and two
hour train ride, like train and busand transfers and all this stuff.
And when, to me, I feel likethere's a perfectly fine high
school down the street, right?
(28:36):
It's not famous like these otherones are, but I don't know.
I, I have these conversations, and oneof our neighbors who, um, the family
is black and they send their childto a private Catholic school, and I
was like, why don't you, it's fine.
Our school is great.
And, you know, and she was like, "No,I'm raising a, a black child, a black
(28:59):
boy. He's going to become a black man.I need to give him all the privileges
and benefits that I can provide tohim to deal with anti-black racism."
And I'm just like, I, I get that.
And, and like, I don't know how to,there's these parental choices and
they're so individual and split and theyworry me, right, because then it's like
(29:21):
we we're all split apart and easier tohave schools really decimated, I guess.
Alexis Miles (29:30):
Well, you mentioned being split apart.
Well, we are all split apart.
Do you think some of that is deliberate,like a divide and conquer strategy?
Oiyan Poon (29:40):
Yeah.
I mean, that is at the end of the day,right, that's, there's, we're seeing
it right now for sure with the Trumpadministration, but I would say that
especially with school and educationpolicies, that's been the case, right?
We, as long as we're split apart, we'venever had fully integrated schools.
We've never had fullydesegregated schools.
(30:03):
And, the more we see each otheras strangers, the more we can be
suspicious of each other and be playedwith and, um, the people with power
can maintain power and aggregatepower, and to whose detriment, right?
Alexis Miles (30:22):
Yeah.
I see that a lot in, in two ways.
Like, Asians as the modelminority, so all other minorities
are pitted against Asians.
And then, I'm like, I'm AfricanAmerican and I see it between
Asian Americans and AfricanAmericans, and how that's exploited.
Oiyan Poon (30:41):
Absolutely.
Alexis Miles (30:42):
And you talk about the way news is reported, and I
pay attention to that as well.
And how, um, the voices of a few sometimesare elevated, so they sound like they,
they're, the voices of the majorityof Asians are, are African Americans,
Asian Americans are African Americans.
And it's not the case.
(31:02):
And it's deliberatelymanipulated by the media.
By mass media.
Oiyan Poon (31:06):
Absolutely.
Absolutely.
And, and you know, the perfect exampleis, as I shared this morning at the
keynote is, um, you know, with thelawsuit against Harvard and UNC,
people assumed that it was Asiansthat were suing Harvard, and when in
fact there were no Asian plaintiffs.
Um, the plaintiff was actually thisspecies or, um, organization called,
(31:29):
um, SFFA, Students for Fair Admissions,and it was founded by two white people.
Um, Ed Bloom and Abigail Fisher.
And, Ed Bloom has been onthis lifelong campaign against
all of the civil rights wins.
His first big win was against the VotingRights Act, right, and, and, uh, it
gutted the Voting Rights Act in 2013,Shelby versus Holder was the case.
(31:53):
And then after that he was like, oh,you know what, this admission stuff,
people get real emotional and wrangledup of wanting to talk about education.
Um, and he, he and AbigailFisher sued UT Austin.
They lost in 2016.
And when he realized, when Ed Bloomrealized that he was gonna lose
with Abigail Fisher, he realizedhe should use a racial strategy.
(32:17):
Ironic, right, given that he wasusing a racial strategy to fight
race conscious admissions, right?
And so, he went around the countrytrying to find an Asian plaintiff,
um, and no one stepped forward.
But he went forward anyway.
He sued Harvard and we knowthe end of that story in 2023.
(32:38):
Ending race conscious admissions.
But opinion poll after opinion poll,the majority of Asian Americans
support affirmative action.
But, because of these stereotypes of themodel minority myth, oh, Asians work so
hard and they're a racially minoritizedpopulation, and you know, affirmative
action hurts them, when it doesn't, right?
But you lean into the stereotypes and thebiases, and then all of a sudden you're
(33:01):
in this thinking that, oh, it makes sense.
Asians must have suedHarvard, when they never did.
It's such gaslighting,ugh, drives me bonkers.
What it's all about is to try tosplit a, a rainbow coalition, right?
And the possibilities of arainbow coalition, right?
Um, I was sharing with somebody today, oneof the reasons why I love Chicago is the
(33:24):
history of Rainbow Coalition and ChairmanFred, Fred Hampton, and, you know, how he
built coalitions with the Puerto Ricansand white working class, and that's when
you knew he had to go, you know, accordingto the federal government, right?
And so, this is very similar.
You keep people apart sothat there can remain a white
(33:46):
supremacist power structure.
Sam Fuqua (33:48):
You're referring to Fred Hampton, chairman of the Black
Panther Party in Chicago, uh, and thenmurdered in his bed by law enforcement.
Oiyan Poon (33:55):
That's right.
That's right.
By the FBI.
CIA.
Police.
Yep.
With his pregnant wi,um, girlfriend, partner.
Alexis Miles (34:05):
If you were able to give a message to everybody in the United States,
let's go even further, to everybody inthe world, about how people can come
together in the service of all of us,what do you, what message would that be?
About how to come together?
Oiyan Poon (34:25):
We have to be clear about our values.
Everyone wants strong communities, safecommunities, healthy communities, right?
We have to remember that we share in thosevalues, and if we move in, in centering
those values, then these messagesto split apart, us apart are harder.
(34:49):
They have a harder job to do.
Does that make sense?
So, I think part of it is a messagingand reminding people, these are our
values, even in these really scarytimes that are pushing us towards
scarcity, and just, like, I gottajust take care of myself, right?
When really, the only way to take careof myself is to also be in community
(35:11):
with others and take care of each other.
So, I guess my message is one ofa reminder of abundance that we
can only win if we win together.
Sam Fuqua (35:24):
Oiyan Poon, thank you so much for speaking with us.
Oiyan Poon (35:26):
Thank you.
Sam Fuqua (35:28):
Oiyan Poon is an education researcher, co-director of the College
Admissions Futures Collaborative,and the author of Asian American
is Not A Color (35:38):
Conversations on Race, Affirmative Action and Family.
We spoke with Oiyan Poon at the2025 White Privilege Conference.
Thanks for listening toWell, That Went Sideways!
(35:59):
We produce new episodes twice a month.
You can find them whereveryou get your podcasts and on
our website, sidewayspod.org.
Our site has information on our guests,interview transcripts and links to
more conflict resolution resources.
And we encourage you tosign up for our newsletter.
(36:21):
That's at sidewayspod.org.
Our production team is Mary Zinn,Jes Rau, Norma Johnson, Alexis Miles,
Alia Thobani, and me, Sam Fuqua.
Our theme music is by Mike Stewart.
We produce these programs in Coloradoon the traditional lands of the
(36:43):
Arapahoe, Cheyenne, and Ute Nations.
To learn more about the importanceof land acknowledgement, visit
our website sidewayspod.org.
And this podcast is a partnershipwith The Conflict Center, a
Denver-based nonprofit that providespractical skills and training for
addressing everyday conflicts.
(37:05):
Find out more at
conflictcenter.org.
Popular Podcasts
On Purpose with Jay Shetty
I’m Jay Shetty host of On Purpose the worlds #1 Mental Health podcast and I’m so grateful you found us. I started this podcast 5 years ago to invite you into conversations and workshops that are designed to help make you happier, healthier and more healed. I believe that when you (yes you) feel seen, heard and understood you’re able to deal with relationship struggles, work challenges and life’s ups and downs with more ease and grace. I interview experts, celebrities, thought leaders and athletes so that we can grow our mindset, build better habits and uncover a side of them we’ve never seen before. New episodes every Monday and Friday. Your support means the world to me and I don’t take it for granted — click the follow button and leave a review to help us spread the love with On Purpose. I can’t wait for you to listen to your first or 500th episode!
Crime Junkie
Does hearing about a true crime case always leave you scouring the internet for the truth behind the story? Dive into your next mystery with Crime Junkie. Every Monday, join your host Ashley Flowers as she unravels all the details of infamous and underreported true crime cases with her best friend Brit Prawat. From cold cases to missing persons and heroes in our community who seek justice, Crime Junkie is your destination for theories and stories you won’t hear anywhere else. Whether you're a seasoned true crime enthusiast or new to the genre, you'll find yourself on the edge of your seat awaiting a new episode every Monday. If you can never get enough true crime... Congratulations, you’ve found your people. Follow to join a community of Crime Junkies! Crime Junkie is presented by audiochuck Media Company.
Cardiac Cowboys
The heart was always off-limits to surgeons. Cutting into it spelled instant death for the patient. That is, until a ragtag group of doctors scattered across the Midwest and Texas decided to throw out the rule book. Working in makeshift laboratories and home garages, using medical devices made from scavenged machine parts and beer tubes, these men and women invented the field of open heart surgery. Odds are, someone you know is alive because of them. So why has history left them behind? Presented by Chris Pine, CARDIAC COWBOYS tells the gripping true story behind the birth of heart surgery, and the young, Greatest Generation doctors who made it happen. For years, they competed and feuded, racing to be the first, the best, and the most prolific. Some appeared on the cover of Time Magazine, operated on kings and advised presidents. Others ended up disgraced, penniless, and convicted of felonies. Together, they ignited a revolution in medicine, and changed the world.