March 5, 2025 • 29 mins
Check here for episode transcript
ABOUT MICHAEL VOULGARAKIS
Michael Voulgarakis is a seasoned commercial real estate professional with over 19 years of experience in debt and equity underwriting, capital raising, and asset management. At Southgate Ventures, he has successfully acquired 26 properties, completed 18 full cycle deals in the Puget Sound region, and asset managed real estate valued at over $300M. He holds a Master's in Commercial Real Estate Finance and a Bachelor's in Business Administration, equipping him with both the academic and practical expertise to deliver results in today's market.
THIS TOPIC IN A NUTSHELL:
Insights on investing in blue cities
Importance of Evaluating Markets
The impact of political perceptions
Michael’s background and journey in real estate
Investment focus of Southgate Ventures
Understanding market dynamics
Discussion on Tenant-Landlord Laws in Seattle
Rent control and rent increase process
Tenant demographics
Seattle vs. other West Coast markets.
Economic growth drivers
Property Taxes and Insurance Costs in Real Estate
Market Insights and Investment Strategies
Economic Challenges in Portland and Seattle
Connect with Michael
KEY QUOTE:
“Do not make an overarching assumption and a blanket statement about any market because I think what they're missing is opportunities to invest where other people are not. Go and talk to operators in that market and figure out what niche they have that they're making money in. “
Summary of Business:
Southgate Ventures invests in value-add and core multifamily assets in the Seattle MSA, which is a talent magnet for industries of the future. It has incredibly favorable demographic trends including a high concentration of lucrative tech, aerospace, biotech, and medical jobs which equates to a very creditworthy tenant base. A population growth projected at 3X the US rate, a job growth rate projected at 2X the US rate, and high home purchase costs, indicate increased rental demand.
ABOUT THE WESTSIDE INVESTORS NETWORK
The Westside Investors Network is your community for investing knowledge for growth. For real estate professionals by real estate professionals. This show is focused on the next step in your career... investing, for those starting with nothing to multifamily syndication.
The Westside Investors Network strives to bring knowledge and education to real estate professionals that is seeking to gain more freedom in their life. The host AJ and Chris Shepard, are committed to sharing the wealth of knowledge that they have gained throughout the years to allow others the opportunity to learn and grow in their investing. They own Uptown Properties, a successful Property Management, and Brokerage Company. If you are interested in Property Management in the Portland Metro or Bend Metro Areas, please visit www.uptownpm.com. If you are interested in investing in multifamily syndication, please visit www.uptownsyndication.com.
#RealEstateInvesting #RealEstate #CreatingWealth #BlueCities #Misconceptions #ValueAddMultifamily #WestCoastMarkets #CompetitiveMarkets #MarketFundamentals #DebunkingMyths #HighCostMarkets #RentControl #PacificNorthwest #CommercialRealEstate #SeattleMarket #MarketDynamics #RealEstateDyna
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Episode Transcript
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Intro speaker (00:03):
Welcome to the Westside Investors Network. Win,
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Trent Werner (00:40):
Welcome back to another episode of the Deal Deep
Dive segment on the WestsideInvestors Network podcast. I'm
your host, Trent Werner. In thissegment, our featured guests
will share their unique storieson a specific deal they've
invested in. We will dive deepinto finding the deal, financing
the deal, writing an offer, andthe due diligence.
Do us a solid and smash thatsubscribe button, leave us a
(01:02):
rating, and share this episode.And now, let's dive deep.
Welcome back to the WestsideInvestors Network podcast. I'm
your host, Trent Werner. Ontoday's episode, we are joined
by Michael Volgarakis withSouthgate Ventures.
Michael and his partner havebeen investing in Seattle,
Washington MSA for ten yearsnow. And today, Michael and I
(01:22):
are going to talk about how youcan still be successful in these
markets that may be consideredhigh priced, may be considered
more difficult to operate in.But Michael's gonna debunk those
myths today and share in detailhow he and his partner have been
successful investing in Seattle,Washington, MSA. Now let's
welcome Michael Volgarakis.Alright.
(01:45):
We have Michael Volgarakisjoining the Westside Investors
Network podcast today. Michael,thanks for taking the time to
chat with us.
Michael Voulgarakis (01:53):
Absolutely. I'm really glad to be here.
Trent Werner (01:55):
So, Michael, I don't know if you've listened to
any of our episodes or ourconversations before, but,
typically, what I like to do islearn more about you, Michael. I
don't think everyone just wasborn and started in real estate.
And, we talked a little bit alot a little bit offline, prior
to starting this today. And I'mcurious how your previous career
has correlated with your currentreal estate career. So what did
(02:18):
you do prior to SouthgateSouthgate Ventures?
Michael Voulgarakis (02:22):
Well, I I started my career in IT client
services. However, my fatherused to build homes, you know,
when I was younger, and I endedup, while I was working for
these companies, buying somecondos and renovating them,
flipping them, living in some ofthem as well. And I I I realized
(02:45):
that I was having a lot of fun,number one. It was because it
was profitable. I enjoy thework.
And I said to myself, I I reallywant to understand the the
income producing real estateside of things. I I had, you
know, some education, but notnearly enough. So I decided to
(03:06):
go back to graduate school. Iwent back and got a master's
degree in commercial real estatefinance in New York City, took a
job in New York City, and andI've had appraisal, asset
management, and, underwritingjobs before starting, Southgate
asset management with mypartner.
Trent Werner (03:28):
Very nice. And were there any, I guess, skills
or traits that you learned doingIT that have correlated or
transferred to all of your, youknow, vast real estate
experience at this point?
Michael Voulgarakis (03:41):
I I would really say, the the big thing is
the communication withcustomers. Right? That was the
side of the business I was on tomake sure that IT
implementations were, goingsmoothly, that problems as
quickly as possible, solve them.And in general, it's a just a
(04:02):
great skill to have, and, italso helps with investor
communication as well.Communicate frequently, tell
people what's going on, and, youknow, your investors, when
they're when they're wellinformed, it really, creates a a
very happy investor overall.
Trent Werner (04:22):
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned two things there that
I think anyone can learn from.One, being able to solve
problems and communicate thoseproblems and the solutions, and
to being able to thinkcreatively to get to a a
solution from a problem thatarises. So that would make
perfect sense in my opinion, andI think those are skills, like
you said, anyone can can use intheir entire life. So, Michael,
(04:45):
what is Southgate Ventures, andwhat do you guys focus on?
Michael Voulgarakis (04:50):
So Southgate Ventures purchases
value add multifamily and coremultifamily assets in the Puget
Sound region. So Seattle,Washington, the Seattle MSA.
And, we've been buyingproperties there for close to
ten years now, and we continueto grow. And and, it's a market
(05:14):
that we're very focused on. It'sthe only market we're buying
properties in at present,because we believe that it has
tremendous economic growthdrivers and a pretty large pool
of assets that are prime forvalue add strategies.
So that's why we're we'resticking with that original
(05:37):
thesis because there's plentymore runway to go in that
market.
Trent Werner (05:42):
I don't know if you guys thought about this
prior to investing in Seattlearea, but have you ever
considered any, I guess, naturaldisaster regions or anything
like that? And and when you werethinking about that or if you
thought about those, is that whyyou chose to to stay in the
Pacific Northwest, or is thatnot a factor?
Michael Voulgarakis (06:00):
It it wasn't a factor. However, you
know, we're we're cognizant ofcertain markets that we had my
partner and I had been exposedto when we were colleagues at a
company. And, for example,Florida or areas in California,
you know, flooding slash fires.And, we we recognize that, you
(06:25):
know, for for many reasons, wedidn't have, any connections in
those markets. And then we alsosaid, well, let's cross those
off.
We're we're not really you know,I'd love to buy something in in
Miami on the beach. However, youknow, maintenance cost, capital
expenditure cost for those typesof buildings with, all the salt
in the air is incredibly high.Insurance is incredibly high,
(06:48):
you know, and it's only gottenworse over the years. That
doesn't mean that, you know,investors can't make it work in
those markets. It just wasn'tsomething that was in our
wheelhouse, and and we decided,you know, let's let's go with
something where we feel a littlebit more comfortable, without
taking on that, what I wouldcall environmental risk.
Trent Werner (07:08):
So you guys chose the rain?
Michael Voulgarakis (07:10):
We chose I'd rather have the rain than
the hail or snow or saltwater orfire. Yes. Absolutely.
Trent Werner (07:18):
I think that's the safest out of all of them if I
had to if I had to guess. So,Michael, you mentioned something
about Florida, for example, youknow, very different, I guess,
market on the spectrum of ofreal estate markets. What are
some of the things because, youknow, people talk. Headlines are
are headlines. You know, oneperson would say Florida's
great.
It's very business friendly.Yada yada yada. But then the the
(07:40):
flip side of that is insurancecosts have gone through the
roof. Taxes can go, you know,all these things. What would you
tell someone on the other sideof the spectrum that would say,
you you know, I'm I'm inPortland, Oregon for anyone that
doesn't know.
So I'm very familiar with whatSeattle you know, how Seattle
operates because Portland'sSeattle's little brother. So how
what would you tell someone thatsays, well, you can't invest in
Seattle. The deals don't makesense. There's rent control, you
(08:04):
know, yada yada, all thepolitical things going on. I
guess, what would you tellsomeone that would say you can't
do any of the things that you'redoing in this market?
Michael Voulgarakis (08:14):
I would say that you you cannot make an
overarching assumption like thatabout any market. You can't say,
some blanket statement thatsays, you know, Texas and
Florida, good. West Coast, bad.Right? What I mean by that is
you have to dig a little deeper.
And the question really shouldbe, how are people making money
(08:37):
in various markets? Because, forexample, I know someone very
well who is making really goodmoney in San Diego. And people
say, well, how is that possible?How can you possibly buy real
estate and make money in SanDiego? Well, he's you know, they
passed, accessory dwelling unitlaws.
(08:58):
So he's able to take a one ortwo family home, add a third or
fourth unit on there, and thenmake money that way. I know
other people who are makingmoney buying apartment buildings
in in Los Angeles. And I I wouldreally caution people again from
not just placing a blanketstatement over something and
totally writing it off because Ithink what they're what they're
(09:21):
missing is opportunities toinvest where other people are
not. So if everyone's flockingto the Sun Belt to buy apartment
buildings and less people areflocking to some of these other
markets that, you know, thenational headlines would have
you believe no one can makemoney in, I would say, again, go
talk to operators in that marketand figure out what niche do
(09:44):
they have that they're makingmoney in. Because as you alluded
to before, some people will say,the prices in Seattle are too
high.
It's it's not possible to makemoney. Well, we've been buying
properties there for ten years,and we are making money. So how
is that possible? I wouldencourage people to talk to
(10:04):
sponsors in those markets andand figure out what their niche
is, get themselves bettereducated before they they make a
blanket statement like that.
Trent Werner (10:14):
Yeah. That's that's really good. I mean,
there's there's gonna be gooddeals in in markets, and there's
gonna be bad deals in markets.It doesn't necessarily what
market or mean what marketyou're in, but rather, can you
find a good deal in said market?
Michael Voulgarakis (10:29):
Absolutely.
Trent Werner (10:30):
One one question I have for you because, like I
said, Portland and Seattle areaare are similar in terms of the,
rules and regulations and lawsthat are up there. I've had a
lot of people, that I've knownthat have left Portland, because
of some of these laws saying,you know, they're too strict. We
can't you know, our hands aretied. We can't do anything with
evictions and moratoriums andall that stuff. What have you
(10:53):
guys done, especially in thelast four and a half, five
years?
And how have you been able tohandle some of these new laws
that have passed when it comesto evictions and and that sort
of thing?
Michael Voulgarakis (11:05):
Well, the the tenant landlord laws in
Seattle are not nearly asonerous as, many people believe.
I think there's some hugemisconceptions out there. Number
one, Washington state does nothave rent control. It was banned
by the state legislature in1981. Do does the legislature
(11:30):
continue to, or do peoplecontinue to bring that up as a
possible law in Washingtonstate?
Yes. They do. But it to me, it'sconsistently shot down. Over the
past ten years, it's beenbrought up maybe two or three
times, and every single time itit it dies before that gets
passed. The other thing is thethe other rules are really
(11:55):
quite, I I would think,equitable.
Number one, we have to providetenants with a notification if
we are raising rents above a 5%level. And that notification is
a hundred and eighty days. Well,we we satisfy that requirement
by putting a rent notificationinto a tenant's original lease.
(12:18):
So instead, we give them 365days, and we say, hey. Your rent
can go up to this amount.
Now we're not gonna chargesomeone an above market rent.
Right? The the market willdictate tenants will dictate
that is what they're willing topay. So we'll put a a a a
relatively decent increase inthere based on what we're
(12:39):
seeing, forecasted increases aregonna be in that market for
CoStar or Green Street or any ofthese other systems that provide
forecasting data. And that's howwe satisfy that requirement.
We've never had any complaintsfrom tenants. At the end of the
day, it's a conversation abouthow much we can raise rent with
(13:01):
a tenant, what they're willingto accept, what we're willing to
accept. And like like any otherinteraction, you know, we we
treat people with respect, andwe we can either agree on a a
rent increase or we cannot agreeon a rent increase. So that's
very simple. The only otherthing is the potential to pay
out relocation, assistance moneywith two tenants that make below
(13:26):
a certain percentage of areamedian income.
And it varies between, you know,how many people are in the
household, one, two, three,etcetera. And that is really,
not that onerous as well becausecouple reasons. One, we're
buying in b b plus areas. Sowe're buying class c b buildings
in b p b or b plus areas. Andour average tenant is making
(13:51):
$95,000 a year.
So, well educated, high earningtenants, they don't meet any of
that, those those area medianincome thresholds. And for the
four so we never had to pay outany of those payments. And it's
also not that onerous of apayment if we had to pay it out
(14:12):
because there's a state fundthat will pay for half of it and
the landlord has to pay for theother half. And I think it's I
think it's two months that thatthe landlord would have to pay.
So it's not that big of anexpense, and we just haven't
experienced it given the thetenant profile of who we're
renting to.
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Michael Voulgarakis (15:30):
I mean, I gotta
Trent Werner (15:30):
be honest. After hearing how loose the
requirements are up inWashington, you guys are living
in the wild, wild West comparedto Oregon and California. Jeez.
Michael Voulgarakis (15:40):
Yeah. It's it's, you know, you know,
Seattle gets lumped in with LA,with Portland, and, you know, I
continually have to saypolitely, no. Actually, that is
not the case and explain thesame thing that I just, you
know, mentioned to you. A lot ofpeople were shocked by it. But,
(16:01):
you know, it's, you know, youcouple that with the the growth
market that Seattle is and, youknow, it it it helps it helps
with the business plan,certainly.
Trent Werner (16:12):
So I know Seattle's got plenty of growth.
I mean, apparently, they got waybetter landlord tenant laws than
we have down here. What wouldwhat would or what's your
thought on the cost of theSeattle MSA? Because that's a
big one that people talk about.It's I mean, I have a a cousin
or second aunt or something likethat that is actually in real
(16:33):
estate up there.
She's a a broker, and she sentme some of her listings, then
it's crazy how expensive theycan get. So what it where does
that play into your guys'underwriting and and assets and
portfolio?
Michael Voulgarakis (16:46):
Well, it it it's a great question. It really
goes back to the the underlyingeconomic fundamentals in that
market. So Seattle is a marketwhere and you know this well. It
is driven by tech, AI,aerospace, biotech, and medical
(17:08):
job growth. And the amount ofjobs that are are are there is
prompting massive, populationgrowth as well.
Then you if you layer on thesupply deficit, you have a
supply and demand, a problemwhere more people want units
(17:31):
than are available. That thathelps us drive up prices. It's
appreciation, essentially. Andit as far as doing the math on a
building, it really comes downto, can these tenants afford the
rents that we are projecting?And in our experience in ten
years, having owned 27 assets inthat market, yes, they they can
(17:56):
afford the rents.
Now, obviously, there is a levelat which they they they cannot.
Right? And we have to becompetitive with every other
building in the market too. Butwhen you look at Seattle, on a,
price per door basis forapartment buildings, for
example, and you compare that toSilicon Valley or Los Angeles or
(18:18):
San Diego, and this was part ofour original thesis, we said,
this is very expensive comparedto these other markets. I'm not
saying that Seattle will ever beSilicon Valley or LA or San
Diego purely, you know, I saythis in jest, like, because of
the weather.
Right? But but the price perpound is very reasonable
(18:38):
compared to other West Coastmarkets. And if you're a,
someone who's, you know, workingin tech, AI, aerospace,
etcetera, and you're living inin California. And you have an
opportunity to take a job inSeattle and you recognize that,
wait a minute. Washington statedoes not have state income tax,
(19:02):
so I'm saving a ton of moneythere.
And then you you you couple thatwith the fact that the rents are
more affordable than where youare living now. It's sort of a a
a double, benefit to anindividual's bottom line. So
that is in part why a lot ofpeople are moving there. They
say, you know, especially youngpeople. They say, I I finished
(19:23):
school.
Why wouldn't I go to Seattle fora few years? I'm gonna get to
bank a lot of money, keep a lotof the own my own money that I I
I've made, get incredibleexperience. Maybe I stay, maybe
I don't. And but that's ourthat's our typical renter
profile. But it really comesdown to, can the tenants afford
to pay those rents and and themath of doing a pro form a in
(19:47):
order to arrive at the purchaseprice for your building.
And there's no shortage of ofproperties out there that we can
buy and run profitably becauseof that.
Trent Werner (19:59):
And, again, this might be getting too into the
nitty gritty. I'm not notexpecting you to know the
answers off the top of your headfor all of these questions. But
when it comes to, you know,taxes and insurance and some of
the other expenses that havejust ballooned across the
country over the last twelve toeighteen months. Does Washington
have anything in place that capsthose, or are there is there no
(20:20):
caps on property taxes andinsurance and that sort of
thing?
Michael Voulgarakis (20:24):
I don't know of any any caps on either
of those expense items. However,the the the taxable, rate, you
know, your assessed value onproperties for us has not been
going up as fast as, you know, II've heard about in other
markets. Insurance is adifferent story, though. Right?
(20:46):
Although it's not in a floodzone, although it's not in an
area that's prone to wildfires,Seattle, like every other market
in the country, has sort of beenthrown in the pool with with
with all those other markets,and we're experiencing rate
increases, you know, premiumincreases.
It depends on the asset you'rebuying, though. Right? If you're
(21:06):
buying an asset that is older,that's unsprinkler, so an
apartment building from thenineteen seventies, no sprinkler
systems, You're gonna get dingedfor that. You're buying an
apartment building in theeighties with a sprinkler system
with no losses on it, either induring our ownership period or
the prior owners ownershipperiod, the the the the
(21:27):
increases are much less severe.But, you know, I was just
speaking to someone who's aformer colleague of mine in New
York today, and we were talkingabout insurance in general.
They're a commercial real estatelender, and nobody knows where
insurance costs are are gonnaend up. So when they're
(21:47):
underwriting loans, they'readding really, really heavy
premium increases across allmarkets, even more so in those,
markets that are subject toflooding, fire, etcetera.
Trent Werner (22:01):
Yeah. And and the reason I asked is because,
obviously, I think everyone canattest to the fact that
insurance is going up. But in,you know, Portland Metro, our
property tax rates, like yousaid, are are pretty consistent.
They're not gonna they're notgonna jump on you. And we looked
at a deal in Texas that I thinkI think it was Texas.
Is there Texas or Florida or oneof the Sunbelt, you know, down
(22:23):
south somewhere where the dealthey they take the property tax
rate based on the the newpurchase price, and it, like, it
quadrupled the property taxes inone year. And so I was curious
if Washington had anythingsimilar to that.
Michael Voulgarakis (22:39):
Yeah. They do. I I mean, most markets do,
based on my experience. Any dealthat we are underwriting, we are
going to whether it's a valueadd deal or a core, a stabilized
deal. In our underwriting model,we're gonna take the we're gonna
look at the existing assessedvalue and the and the mill rate,
(23:01):
and then we're gonna look at thepurchase price.
Right? If there's a a huge gapbetween assessed value and what
we're paying for the property,your your property taxes are
going to go up. They're gonna goup to about, 95% of the purchase
price. So we underwrite that inthere as a safety measure.
(23:23):
Right?
Because once that property salehits the tax rolls, they flag
it. They say, well, if you werewilling to pay $8,000,000 for a
building, that is the value ofthe property. So we're gonna
mark our assessed value to that.So we do take that into account.
And it's it's not, it's not anuncommon thing across the
(23:44):
markets that I've been exposedto.
Trent Werner (23:47):
And last question about the Seattle market in
particular in terms of justdata. What do you what would you
guess or if you know the, Iguess, average rent increase on
an annual basis across yourportfolio or the market?
Michael Voulgarakis (24:01):
That this is a great question. We have
seen five, six, seven percentrent increases for the most part
over the past few years. Duringthe pandemic, our rents dropped
by very low single digitsbecause there was a softening in
the market, but there was nomajor fallout. Most people,
(24:22):
especially if they're working intech, they were just working
from home. Right?
And there was a little bit ofsoftening in demand, but we've
seen consistent rent increases,pre pandemic and post pandemic
as well, and depending on themarket, some market rather, in
Seattle. There are someinstances where, CoStar, Green
(24:42):
Street, etcetera, areforecasting 6% growth. Many of
them are 4% growth. But, verystrong rent growth, given that
construction starts have fallentremendously since the Fed
started raising rates, and youstill have this influx of people
for for high very high payingjobs. That's why they're
(25:06):
forecasting those those rentgrowth as well.
Trent Werner (25:09):
Sounds like a great a great, result for your
guys' business and portfoliothen.
Michael Voulgarakis (25:16):
Yeah. It, you know, it continues to be a
true growth market. Right? It'sit's a market that, you're
getting a significant amount ofyour return from appreciation.
We do the buildings do cash flowas well for sure.
But, you know, if anyone is outthere and they're interested in
in getting exposure to, I liketo call it the talent magnet
(25:40):
that Seattle is and these theseincredibly high paying jobs of
the future. And I think a growthmarket should be part of
everyone's portfolio, especiallyfor diversification. Right? If
you're if you're all in, let'ssay, majority of an investor's
money is in, multifamily ormobile home parks, let's say,
(26:01):
throughout the the Midwest orthe Sun Belt, well, you're
you're kind of overexposed atthat point. Right?
You you should probably startthinking about taking some
portion of your your portfolioand putting it into a market
that has no correlation to toyour existing investments.
Right? Seattle, it would be oneof those. You know? You know?
(26:22):
There's there's many othermarkets too, but that's sort of
where we fit in with, investorsand, and if if they're looking
for a growth market.
Trent Werner (26:32):
Awesome. Yeah. And, Michael, you said that
right now, you guys are are, youknow, focused on operating your
current portfolio, obviously,still underwriting deals. What
kind of deals are you lookingfor currently in case anyone
listening might have a deal thatthat would, meet your criteria?
Michael Voulgarakis (26:47):
Well, we're looking for either multifamily
or mixed use value add or coredeals anywhere in the, the
Seattle area. So we'd like tobuy stuff, ideally, that is
commuting distance to eitherRedmond, Washington, which is
where Microsoft is headquarteredand many other businesses, or
(27:10):
Downtown Seattle, itself. Ourdeal size ranges from, about
3,000,000 up to 10,000,000, sothat's the sweet spot we're
playing in right now. And if ifanyone has any properties that
they're that they're looking tosell on market or off market,
we've we've certainly purchasedplenty of both. We we'd love to
(27:32):
talk to them.
Trent Werner (27:33):
Very nice. And, Michael, how can people connect
with you? Website, social media?
Michael Voulgarakis (27:38):
The the best place is to go to our our
website. And, the company againis Southgate Real Estate
Ventures. So our website issreventures.com.
Trent Werner (27:51):
Very nice. Well, Michael, did I did I miss asking
you questions, or did you haveanything else you wanted to
share today?
Michael Voulgarakis (27:57):
No. I I I I think that was it. I I I
appreciated getting anopportunity to to talk shop with
you, to talk about, you know,West Coast markets versus other
markets as well. And and,hopefully, we've we've debunked
some myths that that some peoplemight not realize were were
simply untrue.
Trent Werner (28:16):
I would I would say that you did. You debunked
myths that, I guess, I had in myown head that, I hadn't done any
research on, but you definitelytaught me something today, and I
know our listeners will get thesame experience.
Michael Voulgarakis (28:28):
Fantastic. Again, it was a pleasure being
on the show. Thank you verymuch, Trent.
Trent Werner (28:32):
Thanks, Michael.
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Trent Werner (00:40):
Welcome back to another episode of the Deal Deep
Dive segment on the WestsideInvestors Network podcast. I'm
your host, Trent Werner. In thissegment, our featured guests
will share their unique storieson a specific deal they've
invested in. We will dive deepinto finding the deal, financing
the deal, writing an offer, andthe due diligence.
Do us a solid and smash thatsubscribe button, leave us a
(01:02):
rating, and share this episode.And now, let's dive deep.
Welcome back to the WestsideInvestors Network podcast. I'm
your host, Trent Werner. Ontoday's episode, we are joined
by Michael Volgarakis withSouthgate Ventures.
Michael and his partner havebeen investing in Seattle,
Washington MSA for ten yearsnow. And today, Michael and I
(01:22):
are going to talk about how youcan still be successful in these
markets that may be consideredhigh priced, may be considered
more difficult to operate in.But Michael's gonna debunk those
myths today and share in detailhow he and his partner have been
successful investing in Seattle,Washington, MSA. Now let's
welcome Michael Volgarakis.Alright.
(01:45):
We have Michael Volgarakisjoining the Westside Investors
Network podcast today. Michael,thanks for taking the time to
chat with us.
Michael Voulgarakis (01:53):
Absolutely. I'm really glad to be here.
Trent Werner (01:55):
So, Michael, I don't know if you've listened to
any of our episodes or ourconversations before, but,
typically, what I like to do islearn more about you, Michael. I
don't think everyone just wasborn and started in real estate.
And, we talked a little bit alot a little bit offline, prior
to starting this today. And I'mcurious how your previous career
has correlated with your currentreal estate career. So what did
(02:18):
you do prior to SouthgateSouthgate Ventures?
Michael Voulgarakis (02:22):
Well, I I started my career in IT client
services. However, my fatherused to build homes, you know,
when I was younger, and I endedup, while I was working for
these companies, buying somecondos and renovating them,
flipping them, living in some ofthem as well. And I I I realized
(02:45):
that I was having a lot of fun,number one. It was because it
was profitable. I enjoy thework.
And I said to myself, I I reallywant to understand the the
income producing real estateside of things. I I had, you
know, some education, but notnearly enough. So I decided to
(03:06):
go back to graduate school. Iwent back and got a master's
degree in commercial real estatefinance in New York City, took a
job in New York City, and andI've had appraisal, asset
management, and, underwritingjobs before starting, Southgate
asset management with mypartner.
Trent Werner (03:28):
Very nice. And were there any, I guess, skills
or traits that you learned doingIT that have correlated or
transferred to all of your, youknow, vast real estate
experience at this point?
Michael Voulgarakis (03:41):
I I would really say, the the big thing is
the communication withcustomers. Right? That was the
side of the business I was on tomake sure that IT
implementations were, goingsmoothly, that problems as
quickly as possible, solve them.And in general, it's a just a
(04:02):
great skill to have, and, italso helps with investor
communication as well.Communicate frequently, tell
people what's going on, and, youknow, your investors, when
they're when they're wellinformed, it really, creates a a
very happy investor overall.
Trent Werner (04:22):
Yeah. I mean, you mentioned two things there that
I think anyone can learn from.One, being able to solve
problems and communicate thoseproblems and the solutions, and
to being able to thinkcreatively to get to a a
solution from a problem thatarises. So that would make
perfect sense in my opinion, andI think those are skills, like
you said, anyone can can use intheir entire life. So, Michael,
(04:45):
what is Southgate Ventures, andwhat do you guys focus on?
Michael Voulgarakis (04:50):
So Southgate Ventures purchases
value add multifamily and coremultifamily assets in the Puget
Sound region. So Seattle,Washington, the Seattle MSA.
And, we've been buyingproperties there for close to
ten years now, and we continueto grow. And and, it's a market
(05:14):
that we're very focused on. It'sthe only market we're buying
properties in at present,because we believe that it has
tremendous economic growthdrivers and a pretty large pool
of assets that are prime forvalue add strategies.
So that's why we're we'resticking with that original
(05:37):
thesis because there's plentymore runway to go in that
market.
Trent Werner (05:42):
I don't know if you guys thought about this
prior to investing in Seattlearea, but have you ever
considered any, I guess, naturaldisaster regions or anything
like that? And and when you werethinking about that or if you
thought about those, is that whyyou chose to to stay in the
Pacific Northwest, or is thatnot a factor?
Michael Voulgarakis (06:00):
It it wasn't a factor. However, you
know, we're we're cognizant ofcertain markets that we had my
partner and I had been exposedto when we were colleagues at a
company. And, for example,Florida or areas in California,
you know, flooding slash fires.And, we we recognize that, you
(06:25):
know, for for many reasons, wedidn't have, any connections in
those markets. And then we alsosaid, well, let's cross those
off.
We're we're not really you know,I'd love to buy something in in
Miami on the beach. However, youknow, maintenance cost, capital
expenditure cost for those typesof buildings with, all the salt
in the air is incredibly high.Insurance is incredibly high,
(06:48):
you know, and it's only gottenworse over the years. That
doesn't mean that, you know,investors can't make it work in
those markets. It just wasn'tsomething that was in our
wheelhouse, and and we decided,you know, let's let's go with
something where we feel a littlebit more comfortable, without
taking on that, what I wouldcall environmental risk.
Trent Werner (07:08):
So you guys chose the rain?
Michael Voulgarakis (07:10):
We chose I'd rather have the rain than
the hail or snow or saltwater orfire. Yes. Absolutely.
Trent Werner (07:18):
I think that's the safest out of all of them if I
had to if I had to guess. So,Michael, you mentioned something
about Florida, for example, youknow, very different, I guess,
market on the spectrum of ofreal estate markets. What are
some of the things because, youknow, people talk. Headlines are
are headlines. You know, oneperson would say Florida's
great.
It's very business friendly.Yada yada yada. But then the the
(07:40):
flip side of that is insurancecosts have gone through the
roof. Taxes can go, you know,all these things. What would you
tell someone on the other sideof the spectrum that would say,
you you know, I'm I'm inPortland, Oregon for anyone that
doesn't know.
So I'm very familiar with whatSeattle you know, how Seattle
operates because Portland'sSeattle's little brother. So how
what would you tell someone thatsays, well, you can't invest in
Seattle. The deals don't makesense. There's rent control, you
(08:04):
know, yada yada, all thepolitical things going on. I
guess, what would you tellsomeone that would say you can't
do any of the things that you'redoing in this market?
Michael Voulgarakis (08:14):
I would say that you you cannot make an
overarching assumption like thatabout any market. You can't say,
some blanket statement thatsays, you know, Texas and
Florida, good. West Coast, bad.Right? What I mean by that is
you have to dig a little deeper.
And the question really shouldbe, how are people making money
(08:37):
in various markets? Because, forexample, I know someone very
well who is making really goodmoney in San Diego. And people
say, well, how is that possible?How can you possibly buy real
estate and make money in SanDiego? Well, he's you know, they
passed, accessory dwelling unitlaws.
(08:58):
So he's able to take a one ortwo family home, add a third or
fourth unit on there, and thenmake money that way. I know
other people who are makingmoney buying apartment buildings
in in Los Angeles. And I I wouldreally caution people again from
not just placing a blanketstatement over something and
totally writing it off because Ithink what they're what they're
(09:21):
missing is opportunities toinvest where other people are
not. So if everyone's flockingto the Sun Belt to buy apartment
buildings and less people areflocking to some of these other
markets that, you know, thenational headlines would have
you believe no one can makemoney in, I would say, again, go
talk to operators in that marketand figure out what niche do
(09:44):
they have that they're makingmoney in. Because as you alluded
to before, some people will say,the prices in Seattle are too
high.
It's it's not possible to makemoney. Well, we've been buying
properties there for ten years,and we are making money. So how
is that possible? I wouldencourage people to talk to
(10:04):
sponsors in those markets andand figure out what their niche
is, get themselves bettereducated before they they make a
blanket statement like that.
Trent Werner (10:14):
Yeah. That's that's really good. I mean,
there's there's gonna be gooddeals in in markets, and there's
gonna be bad deals in markets.It doesn't necessarily what
market or mean what marketyou're in, but rather, can you
find a good deal in said market?
Michael Voulgarakis (10:29):
Absolutely.
Trent Werner (10:30):
One one question I have for you because, like I
said, Portland and Seattle areaare are similar in terms of the,
rules and regulations and lawsthat are up there. I've had a
lot of people, that I've knownthat have left Portland, because
of some of these laws saying,you know, they're too strict. We
can't you know, our hands aretied. We can't do anything with
evictions and moratoriums andall that stuff. What have you
(10:53):
guys done, especially in thelast four and a half, five
years?
And how have you been able tohandle some of these new laws
that have passed when it comesto evictions and and that sort
of thing?
Michael Voulgarakis (11:05):
Well, the the tenant landlord laws in
Seattle are not nearly asonerous as, many people believe.
I think there's some hugemisconceptions out there. Number
one, Washington state does nothave rent control. It was banned
by the state legislature in1981. Do does the legislature
(11:30):
continue to, or do peoplecontinue to bring that up as a
possible law in Washingtonstate?
Yes. They do. But it to me, it'sconsistently shot down. Over the
past ten years, it's beenbrought up maybe two or three
times, and every single time itit it dies before that gets
passed. The other thing is thethe other rules are really
(11:55):
quite, I I would think,equitable.
Number one, we have to providetenants with a notification if
we are raising rents above a 5%level. And that notification is
a hundred and eighty days. Well,we we satisfy that requirement
by putting a rent notificationinto a tenant's original lease.
(12:18):
So instead, we give them 365days, and we say, hey. Your rent
can go up to this amount.
Now we're not gonna chargesomeone an above market rent.
Right? The the market willdictate tenants will dictate
that is what they're willing topay. So we'll put a a a a
relatively decent increase inthere based on what we're
(12:39):
seeing, forecasted increases aregonna be in that market for
CoStar or Green Street or any ofthese other systems that provide
forecasting data. And that's howwe satisfy that requirement.
We've never had any complaintsfrom tenants. At the end of the
day, it's a conversation abouthow much we can raise rent with
(13:01):
a tenant, what they're willingto accept, what we're willing to
accept. And like like any otherinteraction, you know, we we
treat people with respect, andwe we can either agree on a a
rent increase or we cannot agreeon a rent increase. So that's
very simple. The only otherthing is the potential to pay
out relocation, assistance moneywith two tenants that make below
(13:26):
a certain percentage of areamedian income.
And it varies between, you know,how many people are in the
household, one, two, three,etcetera. And that is really,
not that onerous as well becausecouple reasons. One, we're
buying in b b plus areas. Sowe're buying class c b buildings
in b p b or b plus areas. Andour average tenant is making
(13:51):
$95,000 a year.
So, well educated, high earningtenants, they don't meet any of
that, those those area medianincome thresholds. And for the
four so we never had to pay outany of those payments. And it's
also not that onerous of apayment if we had to pay it out
(14:12):
because there's a state fundthat will pay for half of it and
the landlord has to pay for theother half. And I think it's I
think it's two months that thatthe landlord would have to pay.
So it's not that big of anexpense, and we just haven't
experienced it given the thetenant profile of who we're
renting to.
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Michael Voulgarakis (15:30):
I mean, I gotta
Trent Werner (15:30):
be honest. After hearing how loose the
requirements are up inWashington, you guys are living
in the wild, wild West comparedto Oregon and California. Jeez.
Michael Voulgarakis (15:40):
Yeah. It's it's, you know, you know,
Seattle gets lumped in with LA,with Portland, and, you know, I
continually have to saypolitely, no. Actually, that is
not the case and explain thesame thing that I just, you
know, mentioned to you. A lot ofpeople were shocked by it. But,
(16:01):
you know, it's, you know, youcouple that with the the growth
market that Seattle is and, youknow, it it it helps it helps
with the business plan,certainly.
Trent Werner (16:12):
So I know Seattle's got plenty of growth.
I mean, apparently, they got waybetter landlord tenant laws than
we have down here. What wouldwhat would or what's your
thought on the cost of theSeattle MSA? Because that's a
big one that people talk about.It's I mean, I have a a cousin
or second aunt or something likethat that is actually in real
(16:33):
estate up there.
She's a a broker, and she sentme some of her listings, then
it's crazy how expensive theycan get. So what it where does
that play into your guys'underwriting and and assets and
portfolio?
Michael Voulgarakis (16:46):
Well, it it it's a great question. It really
goes back to the the underlyingeconomic fundamentals in that
market. So Seattle is a marketwhere and you know this well. It
is driven by tech, AI,aerospace, biotech, and medical
(17:08):
job growth. And the amount ofjobs that are are are there is
prompting massive, populationgrowth as well.
Then you if you layer on thesupply deficit, you have a
supply and demand, a problemwhere more people want units
(17:31):
than are available. That thathelps us drive up prices. It's
appreciation, essentially. Andit as far as doing the math on a
building, it really comes downto, can these tenants afford the
rents that we are projecting?And in our experience in ten
years, having owned 27 assets inthat market, yes, they they can
(17:56):
afford the rents.
Now, obviously, there is a levelat which they they they cannot.
Right? And we have to becompetitive with every other
building in the market too. Butwhen you look at Seattle, on a,
price per door basis forapartment buildings, for
example, and you compare that toSilicon Valley or Los Angeles or
(18:18):
San Diego, and this was part ofour original thesis, we said,
this is very expensive comparedto these other markets. I'm not
saying that Seattle will ever beSilicon Valley or LA or San
Diego purely, you know, I saythis in jest, like, because of
the weather.
Right? But but the price perpound is very reasonable
(18:38):
compared to other West Coastmarkets. And if you're a,
someone who's, you know, workingin tech, AI, aerospace,
etcetera, and you're living inin California. And you have an
opportunity to take a job inSeattle and you recognize that,
wait a minute. Washington statedoes not have state income tax,
(19:02):
so I'm saving a ton of moneythere.
And then you you you couple thatwith the fact that the rents are
more affordable than where youare living now. It's sort of a a
a double, benefit to anindividual's bottom line. So
that is in part why a lot ofpeople are moving there. They
say, you know, especially youngpeople. They say, I I finished
(19:23):
school.
Why wouldn't I go to Seattle fora few years? I'm gonna get to
bank a lot of money, keep a lotof the own my own money that I I
I've made, get incredibleexperience. Maybe I stay, maybe
I don't. And but that's ourthat's our typical renter
profile. But it really comesdown to, can the tenants afford
to pay those rents and and themath of doing a pro form a in
(19:47):
order to arrive at the purchaseprice for your building.
And there's no shortage of ofproperties out there that we can
buy and run profitably becauseof that.
Trent Werner (19:59):
And, again, this might be getting too into the
nitty gritty. I'm not notexpecting you to know the
answers off the top of your headfor all of these questions. But
when it comes to, you know,taxes and insurance and some of
the other expenses that havejust ballooned across the
country over the last twelve toeighteen months. Does Washington
have anything in place that capsthose, or are there is there no
(20:20):
caps on property taxes andinsurance and that sort of
thing?
Michael Voulgarakis (20:24):
I don't know of any any caps on either
of those expense items. However,the the the taxable, rate, you
know, your assessed value onproperties for us has not been
going up as fast as, you know, II've heard about in other
markets. Insurance is adifferent story, though. Right?
(20:46):
Although it's not in a floodzone, although it's not in an
area that's prone to wildfires,Seattle, like every other market
in the country, has sort of beenthrown in the pool with with
with all those other markets,and we're experiencing rate
increases, you know, premiumincreases.
It depends on the asset you'rebuying, though. Right? If you're
(21:06):
buying an asset that is older,that's unsprinkler, so an
apartment building from thenineteen seventies, no sprinkler
systems, You're gonna get dingedfor that. You're buying an
apartment building in theeighties with a sprinkler system
with no losses on it, either induring our ownership period or
the prior owners ownershipperiod, the the the the
(21:27):
increases are much less severe.But, you know, I was just
speaking to someone who's aformer colleague of mine in New
York today, and we were talkingabout insurance in general.
They're a commercial real estatelender, and nobody knows where
insurance costs are are gonnaend up. So when they're
(21:47):
underwriting loans, they'readding really, really heavy
premium increases across allmarkets, even more so in those,
markets that are subject toflooding, fire, etcetera.
Trent Werner (22:01):
Yeah. And and the reason I asked is because,
obviously, I think everyone canattest to the fact that
insurance is going up. But in,you know, Portland Metro, our
property tax rates, like yousaid, are are pretty consistent.
They're not gonna they're notgonna jump on you. And we looked
at a deal in Texas that I thinkI think it was Texas.
Is there Texas or Florida or oneof the Sunbelt, you know, down
(22:23):
south somewhere where the dealthey they take the property tax
rate based on the the newpurchase price, and it, like, it
quadrupled the property taxes inone year. And so I was curious
if Washington had anythingsimilar to that.
Michael Voulgarakis (22:39):
Yeah. They do. I I mean, most markets do,
based on my experience. Any dealthat we are underwriting, we are
going to whether it's a valueadd deal or a core, a stabilized
deal. In our underwriting model,we're gonna take the we're gonna
look at the existing assessedvalue and the and the mill rate,
(23:01):
and then we're gonna look at thepurchase price.
Right? If there's a a huge gapbetween assessed value and what
we're paying for the property,your your property taxes are
going to go up. They're gonna goup to about, 95% of the purchase
price. So we underwrite that inthere as a safety measure.
(23:23):
Right?
Because once that property salehits the tax rolls, they flag
it. They say, well, if you werewilling to pay $8,000,000 for a
building, that is the value ofthe property. So we're gonna
mark our assessed value to that.So we do take that into account.
And it's it's not, it's not anuncommon thing across the
(23:44):
markets that I've been exposedto.
Trent Werner (23:47):
And last question about the Seattle market in
particular in terms of justdata. What do you what would you
guess or if you know the, Iguess, average rent increase on
an annual basis across yourportfolio or the market?
Michael Voulgarakis (24:01):
That this is a great question. We have
seen five, six, seven percentrent increases for the most part
over the past few years. Duringthe pandemic, our rents dropped
by very low single digitsbecause there was a softening in
the market, but there was nomajor fallout. Most people,
(24:22):
especially if they're working intech, they were just working
from home. Right?
And there was a little bit ofsoftening in demand, but we've
seen consistent rent increases,pre pandemic and post pandemic
as well, and depending on themarket, some market rather, in
Seattle. There are someinstances where, CoStar, Green
(24:42):
Street, etcetera, areforecasting 6% growth. Many of
them are 4% growth. But, verystrong rent growth, given that
construction starts have fallentremendously since the Fed
started raising rates, and youstill have this influx of people
for for high very high payingjobs. That's why they're
(25:06):
forecasting those those rentgrowth as well.
Trent Werner (25:09):
Sounds like a great a great, result for your
guys' business and portfoliothen.
Michael Voulgarakis (25:16):
Yeah. It, you know, it continues to be a
true growth market. Right? It'sit's a market that, you're
getting a significant amount ofyour return from appreciation.
We do the buildings do cash flowas well for sure.
But, you know, if anyone is outthere and they're interested in
in getting exposure to, I liketo call it the talent magnet
(25:40):
that Seattle is and these theseincredibly high paying jobs of
the future. And I think a growthmarket should be part of
everyone's portfolio, especiallyfor diversification. Right? If
you're if you're all in, let'ssay, majority of an investor's
money is in, multifamily ormobile home parks, let's say,
(26:01):
throughout the the Midwest orthe Sun Belt, well, you're
you're kind of overexposed atthat point. Right?
You you should probably startthinking about taking some
portion of your your portfolioand putting it into a market
that has no correlation to toyour existing investments.
Right? Seattle, it would be oneof those. You know? You know?
(26:22):
There's there's many othermarkets too, but that's sort of
where we fit in with, investorsand, and if if they're looking
for a growth market.
Trent Werner (26:32):
Awesome. Yeah. And, Michael, you said that
right now, you guys are are, youknow, focused on operating your
current portfolio, obviously,still underwriting deals. What
kind of deals are you lookingfor currently in case anyone
listening might have a deal thatthat would, meet your criteria?
Michael Voulgarakis (26:47):
Well, we're looking for either multifamily
or mixed use value add or coredeals anywhere in the, the
Seattle area. So we'd like tobuy stuff, ideally, that is
commuting distance to eitherRedmond, Washington, which is
where Microsoft is headquarteredand many other businesses, or
(27:10):
Downtown Seattle, itself. Ourdeal size ranges from, about
3,000,000 up to 10,000,000, sothat's the sweet spot we're
playing in right now. And if ifanyone has any properties that
they're that they're looking tosell on market or off market,
we've we've certainly purchasedplenty of both. We we'd love to
(27:32):
talk to them.
Trent Werner (27:33):
Very nice. And, Michael, how can people connect
with you? Website, social media?
Michael Voulgarakis (27:38):
The the best place is to go to our our
website. And, the company againis Southgate Real Estate
Ventures. So our website issreventures.com.
Trent Werner (27:51):
Very nice. Well, Michael, did I did I miss asking
you questions, or did you haveanything else you wanted to
share today?
Michael Voulgarakis (27:57):
No. I I I I think that was it. I I I
appreciated getting anopportunity to to talk shop with
you, to talk about, you know,West Coast markets versus other
markets as well. And and,hopefully, we've we've debunked
some myths that that some peoplemight not realize were were
simply untrue.
Trent Werner (28:16):
I would I would say that you did. You debunked
myths that, I guess, I had in myown head that, I hadn't done any
research on, but you definitelytaught me something today, and I
know our listeners will get thesame experience.
Michael Voulgarakis (28:28):
Fantastic. Again, it was a pleasure being
on the show. Thank you verymuch, Trent.
Trent Werner (28:32):
Thanks, Michael.
Intro speaker (28:33):
Thank you for listening to this episode of the
Real Estate ProfessionalsInvesting podcast on Wynn, your
community of investing knowledgefor growth. We hope that this
episode has increased yourknowledge and added value to
your path to freedom. If youwould, please take a second to
rate us so that we can get moregreat investors to interview. If
you or someone that you knowwants to be on, please visit
(28:53):
westsideinvestors.com and fillout our form to be on the show.
Thank you again, and enjoy yourday.
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