September 30, 2025 • 48 mins
In this conversation, Rashad and I explore different complexities that come with navigating personal relationships alongside addiction. We both share raw moments of self-confrontation—from breaking a deeply ingrained trauma of abandonment to overcoming the limiting internal beliefs that tie meaningful work to burnout and financial struggle.
This episode is a powerful blueprint for embracing positive disruption, where Rashad unveils his vision for a business that encompasses purpose for him and I challenge his lifelong fear of commitment, tracing it back to a childhood wound.
Join us to learn why it’s important to believe in the magic of beginning things, because "No one is coming to save you, but once you start, the cavalry comes." This conversation reminds us that the life we want requires courage, consistency, and a ticket—even if you're terrified to book it.
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Episode Transcript
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SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
There are moments in life that split us open.
Quiet unraveling, sudden breaks,or truth we didn't know we need
it until we had no choice.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us, the things I
wish someone had told me that Ionly understand and looking
back.
Come on in, you belong here, andwe're gonna talk about all of
(00:21):
it.
I'm your host, Natanya, and thisis what I didn't know.
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
medical treatment.
(00:42):
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.
All right, for today's episode,you're about to meet Rashad
Sutton.
One of the best things aboutRashad, by far, is that where a
lot of people can see somethingthey do externally, a pattern of
behavior, acknowledge it, changeit, and like do something
(01:03):
different externally.
Rashad is a ninja at doing thisinternally.
And so he's great at callinghimself out and oh, I see what I
did there, sort of changinginner thought patterns and
moving forward in a differentdirection because of what he
changes internally.
It's pretty incredible.
So without further ado, here wego.
(01:28):
All right, Rashad, I am so happythat you're here.
What you don't know, I don'tthink you know this story, is
that you and I were on the phonelast year and I was in Steamboat
and I was, I called you.
So Rashad and I know each otherbecause we're both on the same
board of directors for ColoradoArtists of Artists in Recovery,
a nonprofit that's out ofDenver, and we're both on the
(01:49):
board.
And so I had called you to talkabout something board related.
And in the phone conversation,we talked for 45 minutes while I
paced outside in the garage onsome tangent rabbit hole topic
that had nothing to do with whyI called you before we actually
talked.
And after that conversation, Iknew that when I started a
(02:10):
podcast, that you would be thefirst person I called.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
That's so sweet.
I didn't know that.
You're right.
I didn't know that.
It's really sweet and it'sreally cool.
I'm stoked for that.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
So yeah, I just wanted to tell you that.
And I'm so happy you're here.
Thank you for your time.
But I want to talk about alittle bit, and some of this I
might know, some of it Iprobably don't, is you have gone
through a lot of differentthings in your experience,
different rabbit holes, familyrecovery, all the things, right?
And I want to talk about theplaces and the and the points
across your life.
(02:40):
You pick one of which you broke,right?
That kind of like record scratchmoment where you've been
beboping along and like itdoesn't work anymore.
And you kind of have to look atthat thing.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
I had one in active addiction, right?
And it's it's gonna sound uheven a little arrogant.
And please don't take it thatway.
I've um whatever this gift is,I've always had it, right?
I've always I've always been, Idon't know, I guess people would
say charismatic.
I don't really like that.
It's a weird term, but thatthing, whatever, whatever that
(03:12):
is, I've always had it, and I'vealways been able to kind of you
know get through the line withno ID with like a little joke in
a wing.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
That's always a good skill I've had.
And um, you know, after severalyears in my active addiction, I
remember trying to do thatsomewhere, and the person just
looked at me.
And I was like, this is whereyou do the thing.
And they were just looking atme, and it was it was like I
(03:47):
don't I don't have that in thisstate.
I don't have that here.
And that broke me.
Um, that put me in you know, ina hole that it was almost
impossible to get out of that Iwould say um that I would say
(04:09):
I'm only recently recoveringfrom.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Really?
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Um yeah, I would say recently.
Um well because it it makes youquestion a it made me question a
lot, right?
Um it made me question, even onthe recovery side, right?
Am I leaning on that too much?
Is that manipulative?
Um I've lived without it.
I don't want to rely on thatbecause it's like having money,
(04:35):
I would imagine, and then youdon't.
You know, it's like, uh, I don'twant to rely on that and then
it'd be gone.
That really broke me.
It really changed me and changedwho I am fundamentally.
I don't I'm trying to think ofin recovery.
Mm-hmm.
Have I had any moments like thatand I haven't.
SPEAKER_03 (04:54):
Well, how about even if it's not like a break, like
when you changed, right?
Yeah.
When you were, what was your atpoint of in recoveries?
Usually there's a there's athing, there's a catalyst,
there's a there's a moment ofwhich you have been like
functioning at this certainlevel or doing a thing, and
suddenly something happens, orsomeone says something to you,
or you have an experience, andthat can be an external
(05:16):
experience or an internalexperience.
But usually like there's a aswitch that flips and you you
have to stop.
SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
I can tell you something.
I can tell you one.
I through all this, I I had kindof lost touch with my daughter.
My daughter is now 22 years old,just turned 22 in June, and um
we had you know lost touch.
Um through active addiction, Iwas really afraid and um I
(05:43):
didn't want her to see me likethat.
Um just didn't really talk toher much.
And um, I was so proud of myselfand like getting sober and um I
had this delusion that I wasjust gonna reach out to her and
things were gonna be fine.
That that we were gonna justpick back up, you know?
(06:05):
And um and that like kind oflike she wasn't a human, but
like this this doll that I couldjust switch back on, you know,
uh-huh.
Put batteries in and be like,alright, well, here we go.
Like it never ended.
And um, I remember gettingslapped in the face with that.
(06:28):
That like that that wasn't thecase, and and I'll tell you
where is I was like nine monthssober, I was so proud of myself,
and uh she invited me to herhigh school graduation.
So I'd fly to California and umout there with my sister and my
mom, and in that very earlyrecovery mindset of everything
is fine.
I did the thing, and uh, Iremember reading her like bio in
(06:51):
their in their graduation likeprogram, and you could see this
she was trying to pull fromthings from her mom and from me,
and the only thing she knewabout me was that I managed
apartments, and that was a knifeto the gut.
Um that was a knife to the gutbecause even in her trying to be
(07:16):
nice and include me, the truthrang out that all she knew about
me is what I used to do forwork.
SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Um and to your point, right?
Like what that made me have todo is go, okay, well, it's more
than just okay, I'm around now,let's be better.
I have to build a relationshipwith her and like um not only
get to know her, but like makemyself available to get to know.
(07:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:48):
Um there's a double there's a dual both sides of
that, right?
Like you, and I like that youyou're walking into this, like
patting yourself on the back.
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:57):
Like I did good.
Uh-huh.
And not thinking about what thishas been like for her.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
What it yeah, man.
Um that it must have been awful.
And it's probably still awful.
You know, that like that, yeah,she just doesn't know me and by
extension doesn't know a pieceof herself.
And um, I think it's what'swhat's dude, and this is the
craziest thing aboutrelationships is it'd be easier
(08:25):
if she just hated me.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Right?
It'd be easier.
SPEAKER_02 (08:30):
And then you don't have to deal with it.
You don't have to, yeah, youdon't have to face that at all.
She just hate you.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
It'd be easier if she was like, I just don't want
anything to do with you.
Then I could be like, oh, well,I'm then I get to be still a
good guy, right?
I get to write off a new set.
SPEAKER_03 (08:45):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
You know, and be like, I tried, man, I did
everything in my power.
You know, she wasn't having it,and that wasn't the case, you
know.
Um, that wasn't the case.
And so that that really changedhow I approached relationships.
You know, I I like to, when Ithink about it or I talk about
(09:08):
it, I talk about it as just interms of her, but in truth, man,
it absolutely changed how I seerelationships and how I um how I
present myself to people, right?
Um with like consistency andvulnerability, I think, and
those are the like key words Ithink that helped in that
(09:31):
relationship, right?
It's not like perfection.
I think that like right.
I don't have to be perfect, butwhat I do have to do is be
consistent.
If you know what you're what toexpect from me, then even my bad
stuff is not awful.
Because you're you're aware ofit.
I think a lot of times surpriseis worse than um even
(09:55):
disappointment, right?
It's like, oh yeah, I wasn'texpecting that from you.
That's weird.
Why did you react that way?
So yeah, consistency andvulnerability were my lessons
from that.
SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
Well, and I want to go back to what you said about
it would be easier if, right?
Because I'm gonna tell a story,I don't think I've ever told
this out loud, maybe to oneperson, because at the time of
which I was my marriage wasfalling apart, and my ex-husband
was in the hospital ninedifferent times for
alcohol-related issues.
And I was also fully analcoholic, and so that's not a
(10:26):
good combo because I'm enablingthat, also have my own problem,
right?
And sort of blaming him, likethis is his problem because he
keeps ending up in the hospital,but I don't, like, I'm not in
the hospital, I'm good.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
You know, I'm good.
SPEAKER_03 (10:38):
But there came a point in time of which I
realized that my brain, and thishad become so normal
functionally for me, and I wasso numb, that my brain would
think, go down the rabbit holeof maybe he maybe he would just
die.
And that's really hard to sayout loud and admit because it
(10:59):
sounds like I'm an awful person.
No, I think it's a good idea.
But the truth, right?
But the truth is it seemedeasier because it was already a
shit show.
It was already a mess.
And my brain was sort of lookingfor freedom.
It was looking for a release.
How do I get out of this?
And at the time, I was not aperson who could face things or
walk the hard road, or I didn'tthink I could be.
(11:21):
And so I just remember thinkingthat more than once and thinking
like how awful I was that Ithought that.
And it was not malicious.
unknown (11:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:29):
It was just because because then if he was no longer
here, I had an out to go startwhat I really wanted and what
was the root of that sort ofthought process, which was I
wanted a different life.
SPEAKER_01 (11:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
Right?
And so thinking that if he if hewasn't here anymore, everybody
would understand.
I would be socially acceptable,everyone would understand that
we grieve and move on.
And I I had a free canvas to gobuild a new life on.
Um, but the the the thing behindit being like, that's the easy
route because then I don't haveto face it.
(12:03):
And then I don't have to takeany responsibility or do any
work, and everybody understands,and I'm still the good girl.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Yeah, man.
You don't have to face right.
It's like it's like it's youdon't have to take any
accountability.
SPEAKER_03 (12:15):
Nope.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
You know, and um, dude, accountability sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
You know, I've been watching like crash TV at the
coworkers, and I watch thesepeople attempt to apologize and
take accountability, and it's sohard to say, hey, regardless of
your actions, my actions wereunacceptable, and I I apologize
(12:49):
for that.
I'm truly sorry, and um, I'mgonna do my best to be a better
person.
The things I did, I I don't likeabout I don't like that I did
those things, and I hate that Idid them to you, and it seems so
hard for people to say that,like without justification and
without like you know, but ifyou hadn't have been there,
(13:11):
right?
And I I think that's the partthat like you know, now I have
to face this relationship inwhich I could fail.
Yeah, in which there's a chancethat she gets to know me and
doesn't like me.
Um and if that happens in thebeginning, whatever I tried,
it's over.
But like you said, if I now haveto now I have now I have to try.
(13:34):
You know what I mean?
But in your case, it's so mucheven trickier, right?
Because especially if the if atthe time you're drinking, you
don't even know what change ornew life looks like.
SPEAKER_03 (13:51):
No, not at all.
Like couldn't fathom.
And it's like the amount ofpeople that affected, right?
Like it it's just easier if I gothe route that my brain was
going, and I understand why mybrain did that.
But what I actually did, what inhindsight was so magical because
it was like going through thetrenches, but it's where you
it's like you you change andgrow from all the shit that's
(14:14):
hard, which we all know isvaluable now, but at the moment
it was not something I wanted tolook at.
I had to tell the truth tomyself first, all of the things
that and all of the things aboutthe marriage, of everything
about the life that I had that Iwas I had actively participated
in every decision that got methere.
And I was miserable.
And so I had to admit all ofthat to me.
(14:36):
Then I had to confront him andhave a conversation, and he was
not on the same page.
That was not a mutual split.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
Right.
And so I have to face watchingsomeone go through the stages of
grief at me, right?
And then once that happened,also let me tell you, because
nobody told me this, the stagesof grief do not go in order.
No, there's no specifictimeline, it's not one, two,
three, four, five, and they cango back and forth, and you can
go back to them several times.
(15:06):
Like it's all over the place.
And when someone's doing that atyou, it's messy, right?
But so then I had to go, oncethat happened, then I had to
tell people, right?
And because I had created afacade of what my life looked
like, what the day I told mymom, my sister, and my
brother-in-law, they were all inthe kitchen at my sister's
house, and I and I said, like, Ineed to talk to you.
(15:27):
Um, I think I'm gonna get adivorce.
They looked at me like I had twoheads because they didn't know,
because I had lied and I hadpainted this like we're all
good.
And the the he and the me andthe us that we showed people
wasn't perfect, but it was notthe truth at all.
And so they didn't know.
And then his family, right?
Which is there's all thesedifferent impacts, like people
(15:48):
that had left me and taken me inas their family.
I had to hurt them.
And that is something that is sohard.
SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
I that brings me to this place where I there's
something I did want to talkabout.
Um I've been it should havetalked about, and it's this
alchemical thing that happenswhen you do stuff.
I don't know what more eloquentway to put that.
But like Right?
So, like when you you're havingthese thoughts, and you're like,
(16:20):
okay, you're basically soundslike having a thought around how
do I change my life from this?
And so then you purpose in yourheart to do a thing, right?
You're like, I'm going to splitfrom this marriage.
I feel like there's and nottalking about it, right?
Not talking about it.
(16:41):
Like there's some magic thathappens when you do a thing.
You move into you moving.
There's some magic that happenedin there.
Um for for me for me recently, Iwas feeling I was feeling uh
dude, that's another reason whyit hit.
(17:02):
I was feeling so likedisconnected um people.
Sad.
Probably a better way to put it.
Um and um and I wasn't doinganything about it, I was just
pouting about it.
Um, I was just pouting about it,and I was like going to work and
(17:25):
doing my thing and you know,trying to work out and coming
home.
And it was just sad.
And um I was like, hey, well,I'm gonna I'm gonna be I'm gonna
be the friend that I want.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Right?
I'm gonna be the friend that Iwant.
Um and so I started callingpeople, you know, and and not
with no intention.
I just started calling people.
SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
I started Was that when you texted me?
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
Probably.
SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
And it was a random day, and I was not that we don't
check in every once in a while,but it was like really random.
And I was it was really sweetwhat you said, and I was like,
to what do I owe this beautifulmessage on like a Tuesday
morning?
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
Yeah, right.
And I think um so much, and notthat we do things to give
things, but I mean, obviously,this is a result of that.
There's so many things that havehappened in my life as a result,
and what I found, what I foundis um man, other people are
lonely too.
(18:31):
You know, do you know what Imean?
Um, but they're not.
SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
I felt that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Do you know what I mean?
But they're not.
SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
There's that thing that somebody has to break it,
but right, we I would muchrather keep up, and that's what
I think hooked me, right?
I would much rather keep thisfacade of you thinking.
Yeah, oh, I have all this stuffto do, and I'm so busy, and
everyone's talking to me, andI'm so important, then break
down and tell you, hey, I'mlonely, can we go get a bowl of
(19:01):
soup?
Like, really, do you know what Imean?
Like, no, because you'll knowthe truth about me.
And so there's something likeit's like an alchemy that
happens when you when you dostuff, when you put life in
motion, right?
When you're like, okay, I'mgonna I'm gonna push forward on
(19:23):
this.
I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna bethis person.
Um God, it's so I'm right on thecusp of being able to explain
that.
It's like, um the the term I'vebeen using for this feeling is
help's not coming.
SPEAKER_03 (19:43):
Yes, we talked about this.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
We talked about this.
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Like no one's coming to save you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
No one's coming to save you.
SPEAKER_03 (19:48):
No one's coming.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
It's fine, no one's coming.
But the the alchemy, and that'sprobably the best way to put it,
the alchemy of it is once youstart, the cavalry comes.
Yes, magic.
That's the yes, that's themagic.
SPEAKER_03 (20:02):
That was a great way to say that, right?
SPEAKER_00 (20:04):
You no one's coming, and no one's coming, but once
you start, then dude, then youstart to receive this abundance
of like help and support andthings that you just were not
expecting, you know.
Um and I think, you know, goingall the way back to the very
(20:25):
first question you asked me,that probably has been a
breakdown for me.
Maybe that's one, right?
Where I was in this funk and Iwas like, okay, well, I gotta do
something.
I gotta, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
Well, and that thing, that like stagnation
doesn't create energy.
It doesn't create, I mean, Idon't like the term
manifestation, but creatingthings to occur in your life,
creating opportunities andconnections and movement.
Like movement, it's like what isthe scientific like inertia is a
body in motion, stays in motion.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Yeah, it's like one of the means laws.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Yeah, right, right, right.
So you have to start moving.
And sometimes that means achoice or a decision.
And often I'll talk to peopleand it's like they're waiting
for something, right?
And they're in a in a funk or ina place or sort of, I don't know
about this, or and it's it mightbe that they're waiting for the
right the right thing, the rightchoice, the right time.
They're waiting for someone elseto bring the thing up to have
(21:22):
the conversation that they wantto talk about, um, or just to
make the the decision to go outto do the end the thing, to
start the thing, whatever,whatever it is.
And it's in that waiting, youget stagnant and you do get
things like lonely, and then youyou start to tell stories,
right?
Which aren't true usually, butthat I'm alone and nobody cares.
(21:43):
And and I love that it's such ayou know, middle school-esque
story, but that it's just stilltrue, and that's not bad.
It's just like I I am lonely,right?
And I've we've talked about thata little bit with I chose again
for the second time in my lifeto move to a city or a state
where I knew no one.
I did not know a single personin Tennessee that I was aware of
(22:04):
when I got here, right?
And so there's a lot that comesalong with that.
But part of that, once thebusyness settled, right, is that
I had to also acknowledge that Iwas lonely and that some of the
things and places where peoplewould go meet people, I don't
want to do to my gym anymore.
So what do I do with that?
And I did have a little bit ofthe pity party.
SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the like, meh, you know.
Oh, it's funny.
I love it.
I love it in that place.
I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (22:33):
But then at the point of which it's okay, well,
nobody's coming to save you.
And I don't mean that.
I so don't mean that in a in amean way, in a attacking way, in
a not caring way, or thatthere's not people that want to
help you and support you.
Because I absolutely think thatthere are, right?
But you just can't, you can'tlike you're giving your power
away by waiting for someone elseto be the CEO of your life.
SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Dude, I'll say it, I'll say it another way.
Wear those wear those jeans.
You know?
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Do you know those jeans thatyou're saving for like the
perfect party or whatever?
Yes.
You're like, I don't want to ifI wash them too many times,
they're gonna get a weird color.
Wear them, dude.
You should wear those.
You know, wear those jeans, wearthose shoes, do the thing.
(23:18):
Like, you know, um, it it doessound negative, but it's so
incredibly positive in like mywar cry right now that you know
help is not coming.
Um and and yeah, that justbecause I do that with
everything.
I do it with everything, I do itwith everything except for
(23:38):
money, right?
I wish I could do it with money.
I wish I could just be like, oh,don't spin that.
But I spend you know money.
Um but yeah, do the thing, youknow, do the thing and and like
yeah, I don't know.
It's there's something in therethat I haven't I'm not 100% and
(24:03):
I haven't got it figured outyet, but that I'm working on in
this place in my life where I amum trying to just continually
move forward, you know, andinstead of that's another thing,
right?
You see, you mentioned this thatum we kind of have all these
things in our head or all thesereasons why not.
(24:25):
And that's why these kind ofconversations are important
because there's nobody to argueagainst your doubt if you keep
it in your head.
Right?
And so in your head, you'relike, oh well, that's a crazy
idea.
I'll never do that.
And you know, your other partsare like, Yeah, whatever, yeah,
that sounds crazy.
(24:46):
But when you put that thing outinto the world by either doing
or by at least acknowledginghaving a circle like this and
conversations, then you havethis other part that's not in
you that can say, Oh, no, thatsounds great.
You should yeah, absolutely dothat.
SPEAKER_03 (25:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
And you're like, I didn't think that was possible
for me.
And it's like, yeah, man, yeah,you can do that.
Um, so those things are yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:11):
And even this podcast is a great example.
I've been talking about it for ayear or two.
It was kind of on the backburner, and then I had I did all
these other things, so it had towait.
And then suddenly it got quiet,and I was like, oh, and then
this, and then I changed jobs,and then I moved to Nashville,
and then I was starting a newjob there, and like it wasn't
the right time.
And then suddenly I was like, Ithink it's time.
Oh shit, right?
(25:32):
And then, but then I have tooverride me because I get in the
way.
And so stuff like for me,perfectionism is a thing that I
have to work on of where there's600 things that would stop me
from doing this if I let thatget in the way.
Everything from what I'm wearingto what's behind me, to which
audio I use, to what programwe're recording this on, to the
(25:53):
schedule and the timeline andthe topics and the right first
question.
And what do you, you know, andthen how do you promote it?
You could get so lost.
And I did for a minute.
And then I just sort of had thatconversation of like, if I have
to just start, you just have tobegin, otherwise, I'll never do
it.
And I'll always be waiting forthe best version of this.
And so something I did thathelped me the other day, I was
watching a podcast and it waslike episode 500 of this
(26:16):
particular podcast.
Yeah, yeah.
And I, for my own, they have avideo version, it was on
YouTube.
And so I went back in thearchives to episode one because
it was all it's on a stage,right?
It's staged, it's beautifully,you know, produced, and clearly
this is a professional setting.
And so I went back to episodeone, episode two, and it's the
(26:37):
same guy.
He's just on headphones in hisoffice, asking it like they're
just it's just like this.
And I was like, okay, I'm justgonna, we're just gonna do this.
I'm in my apartment.
I'm not gonna hang things on thewall behind me.
This is the way the light comesin, and that's it.
Because otherwise I won't begin.
And I can I can find a millionreasons not to begin.
unknown (26:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
And then I won't do anything.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
And you're stuck, and then you're sad, and then
you're um Yeah, you're stuck.
You're stuck.
So yeah, man, there's magic inlike doing the thing.
There's so much magic in doingthe thing.
SPEAKER_03 (27:10):
Um What are you in this moment like most most
anticipating, most nervousabout, most not sure what you're
gonna start, most overthinkingin any area of your life.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Um most like apprehensive, you know, I think
um you're gonna hate this somuch.
You're gonna you're gonna when Itell you, you're gonna hate this
so much.
The thing that I can't seem toget myself to do is get out of
the country.
I've never been, I'd like totake either a trip, you know, I
(27:47):
think with people is fine, butI'd like even just a solo trip,
just some even just as easy asMexico.
I went through all the work,have given myself a passport,
um, I've never stamped it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
Oh dang.
Like ever.
SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
Ever.
I've never left never left thecountry.
And now, and like that's why Isaid I know you're gonna hate
this, because now I'm like, Ihave the job, I have the
passport, I have the time.
Mm-hmm.
And I just just literally havenot done it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:20):
What is your what is your hiccup?
What is the thing that like, ifyou're honest about what happens
in your head, what what hitspause and then diverts you
somewhere else?
SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
I think up until up until maybe like this month,
literally, because it takes timeto build, it was finances.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:37):
Um I didn't have, you know, a grand or a couple
grand that I could just burn,and I don't have any credit
cards.
As wild as that may sound, Idon't have any credit cards.
So I didn't have a reserve fromthat I could pull from to be
able to do it.
It's a lot, it's a lot differentto go to Wyoming, you know, you
get like Yes.
You know what I mean?
(29:00):
It's just cheaper, you know, andI could stock away, you know,
$500 or whatever for like a triplike that or even to California.
Um, but I think it's beenfinances, and so I'd like to um
I have it on my goals for thisyear to have something booked.
No, by the it by the last day ofthis year.
(29:21):
Um I'm gonna book something.
Um, but that's been the thingthat I that for me I feel like
is such a hurdle for me.
I've never been out of thecountry and I'd like to.
Um I don't have any reason notto.
I don't have any reason not to.
I think other than that, um, andI think dude, and in like it's
(29:41):
the beauty in questions likethis.
Other than that, things aregoing pretty well in terms of
and maybe that's a thing too.
I'll give you another one.
I'm toying with this idea ofstarting a business.
SPEAKER_03 (29:57):
Ooh, tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
Um I That's almost all I have right now.
SPEAKER_03 (30:01):
I'm so interested in what I don't even care what it
is.
Rashad is starting a business.
Take my money.
What are you what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
I don't know, but I think it I think uh and look at
me like applying stuff that Ilearned or that I had a
conversation about.
So, you know, I mean things aregoing well and are easy and are
fine.
I don't feel complacent yet.
I don't feel like the house ison fire and I'm like, this is
cool, I'll just stay here.
(30:29):
I do feel content, right?
Um and so when I was talking to,you know, people that I that I
admire about that feeling, theywere like, well, now's the time
to challenge yourself.
If everything is fine, it's timefor you to create some
disruption.
It's time for you to create athing.
(30:50):
And they were like, is it gonnabe scary?
It is, and it's probably gonnasuck for a little bit.
But that thing that you'relooking for, if you don't do it
positively, you'll do itnegatively.
SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
I can get that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (31:04):
Yeah, because the negative version, especially in
recovery world, is creatingchaos.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
It's creating chaos.
SPEAKER_03 (31:10):
You create chaos because it's a distraction, it
feels like drama, it'sinteresting, it's whatever, and
it's never in an optimisticlight, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (31:18):
Um, but I like that the sort of whoever said
whatever quote about if yourdreams don't scare you, they're
not big enough.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:25):
And I I I will say I think I do a pretty good job of
keeping myself close enough tothat that I'll get comfortable.
SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:34):
And then be like, you're not, you know, you're not
kind of going for it.
And you don't want to just liveon the edge all the time either,
because I think there's a lot ofto be said for integration and
taking breaks and you know,balancing out.
But I think you know when that'strue.
And it's also even the word youuse, I will say this because it
it's always not a red flag, buta note, a notated word when
(31:57):
people say they're fine.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
You know, like I'm fine, I'm good.
It's like a word people hidebehind.
And it's not good or bad.
It's just sort of like, what areyou not saying?
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:07):
But and I say that about whatever business you
create.
And one of the reasons I liketalking to you much is because
you do such a good job ofwalking through the things that
we all talk about, right?
And it and whenever we end up inconversation, it's always like,
yes, these are wins.
I'm doing this over here.
I'm still, I'm still learning onthis other curve over here,
(32:28):
right?
And you do that in such a greatjob.
That authenticity, I think, justI think people resonate with it.
It's one of the reasons, like Isaid, I like to talk to you, is
because you'll just be like,Yeah, what's this thing about
over here?
And let's talk about it.
And I'm so interested in thesame type of thing.
So you at the helm of whateveryou create, right?
Virtual, brick and mortar,whatever, whatever it has to do
(32:49):
with.
I'm so curious to see what youdo.
And I think there's a lot ofpeople that would probably get
behind that for similar reasons,whatever it was, just to be
like, You got this.
Yeah, I just have any thoughtsabout not even the top like what
aspect of the world it's in orwhat you just don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
I think the you know, my personal purpose and
like goal in life is to helpyoung men struggling with
recovery, right?
Either in it or in the middle ofit or thinking about it.
And so I don't know.
I'd like for whatever I build tobe purpose-driven, right?
And if it can um if it canbenefit financially, then that's
great.
Um, and I'm not just talkingaltruistically, I do, but I
(33:30):
think if I'm gonna spend my timein space on something, I wanted
to do that, right?
I think I wanted to help peopleand help and by by extension
help me.
Um so I think somewhere in thatspace, you know, unless somebody
has a really good deal on tires,maybe I'll sell tires.
SPEAKER_03 (33:48):
But even what you said, like that's such a I wanna
I wanna talk about that becausethat was important.
The altruistic and theespecially in the world of
people who have jobs wherecaring or empathy or giving or
service of any kind is aboutother people, which is a lot of
jobs, by the way.
Um there's often this likesocietal norm that's become okay
(34:10):
that the exchange is thatthey're broke and or on the edge
of burnout, if not overburnedout, right?
And like when I had worked inSteamboat for a nonprofit, I got
to that point and like I justremember being like, this isn't
okay, because it's close tocosting me rent my recovery.
I'm broke, I'm burnt out, I'mexhausted, and I can't like
input to me because I've givenso much to everybody else.
(34:32):
And this isn't okay, right?
And so I made many choices afterthat, but I just sort of like
promise to myself that I willkeep doing work that matters,
not at the exchange of me beingbroke.
And in fact, that like I'mallowed the opposite of being
broke, right?
And that I'm allowed to havemore and keep more and share
more and be generous with moreand do more in my own life.
(34:54):
And that's been a active thing Ihave had to practice breaking in
my own head.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
100%.
And I I agree with that, right?
I I deal with much of the samein that like um it it feels like
um sometimes if you'reprofitable, you must be doing
something immoral or illegal.
(35:20):
Um because that's the only wayyou make make you know money in
this space.
And that's just first of all,it's just not true.
And I like you, I love what yousaid about having to break that
stigma in my own head.
I think so much we think aboutstigma, and it's only, oh, well,
if you have holes in your jeansor whatever, you must be
homeless.
And it's stigma is so much farmore far reaching than that, you
(35:42):
know, um, and approaches peoplewith money and with success as
well.
So yeah, yeah, I'm dealing withthat.
I'm dealing with that.
Trying to find somethingpositive to build.
I think I have to, and that'swhat I mean by fine.
And you're right, like, dude,it's so imperceptive to pick up
on that and thoughtful that whenI say fine, that is exactly what
(36:05):
I mean.
I mean things are they're fine.
I don't have anything tocomplain about, and I want to
make sure that I'm not in thatweird space of losing gratitude.
Um, but I'm not excited aboutanything right now either.
Um and that can be, especiallyfor you know, an alcoholic like
myself, so detrimental becausejust like you said, if I don't
(36:28):
have anything to be excitedabout, I'm gonna make something
to be excited about in the wrongdirection.
Yeah, in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_03 (36:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
And so I have to be aware of that.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm so curious to see what thatwhat that looks like and what
that unfolds.
What would you what would whatfeels exciting about anything
right now?
Like you just said you don'treally have anything you're
excited about.
What would what would be nice tobe excited about?
SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
You know, I don't know.
I I don't know as far as I don'tlet me say like this, because
this is more accurate.
The fear is louder than theexcitement right now.
SPEAKER_03 (37:07):
I got you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:09):
I can't, you know what I mean?
I can't I don't have anythinglike oh, this is a thing.
Um, I think this being the firsttime I'm saying it out loud um
is is a step in the rightdirection.
And not that, oh, I probablyshould because you're telling me
I should and you're you you knowmore stuff, but like, hey, this
is a thing that I pro that Ithink I should do.
This is the first time of melike owning that and saying it
(37:31):
out loud, and so I think I'm onthat step before I don't I don't
have anything yet where I'mlike, oh, this is the thing I'd
want to build.
SPEAKER_03 (37:39):
Well, and I love that like that's okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:41):
Right?
There's I have things I want tobuild, right?
And the actual concrete form ofthat has shifted many times.
There's only a couple aspects ofit that I'm very sure of.
And the rest of it, people askme, and I don't answer all that
much because it's kind of stillunfolding.
And this actual thing that we'rein right now is one step of
that.
Part of it has to do with beingseen more and using my voice and
(38:03):
talking about the things thatnobody ever talked about, right?
But the whole big picture, Ican't write you in this moment
of full business plan.
I could talk, I could talk agood outline, right, of where I
want to head and what I thinkthat is, but it also also
informed by the way I movethroughout the world.
SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:20):
Right.
And like who I run into and Ilike perspective of things,
right?
Back to movement.
When you make a new choice, evenif it's to move like three steps
to the left, now you can seelike a little bit farther around
the door than you could seebefore.
And you might have anotherthought there or meet a
different person.
And so, like, that's the beautyof things.
I also have to check myself tonot let that be a reason to not
(38:42):
do anything.
Because I'm always like, oh, I'mjust waiting and I haven't met
the thing yet, and I'm inmovement.
And you're you're you're notactually doing anything.
It's been a long time of sort ofexcuses, right?
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
Yeah, help's not coming.
You gotta do it.
Like, yeah, you know, and andand I think all of these things
are are building towards athing.
I know that was like the mostunspecific sentence.
But I do know that, right?
I know that in my soul is thatall of these things are building
towards a thing.
Even that refrain, right, oflike, hey, help's not coming,
(39:15):
let's not get stuck in themoney.
You know, let's not get stuck inthis.
That is something I neededbefore I could do the next
thing.
Do you know I needed to wrap mybrain around that before I can
move forward?
But yeah, something.
We just don't know what.
SPEAKER_03 (39:31):
Yeah, but I'm so curious to see what that is.
And like I said, and also justbecause I think you're a good
leader, right?
In in the aspects that we talkedabout before.
And I know you lead people inwork and other things and other
aspects of things that you do.
And I think it's a quietstrength that people respond to,
right?
They can go talk to you, you canhold space for things.
You do a really good job of sortof seeing multiple sides and
(39:54):
considering.
Oh, I could see why we'd go thatway and go this way, right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:57):
No, I think um, yeah, man, I think being a
leader for me, and especially ina leading, dude.
That's the that's the thing.
I've said this my whole lifethat like um man, I'm a I don't
want to be a general, and that'sthe hurdle I think I'm trying to
get over in my life, right?
I'm cool in being a general.
(40:18):
I can get those guys to followyou, but I don't want to be the
one with the vision.
Um, and I and I don't know whythat's always scared me, but it
it always has.
There's something aboutcommitting totally and like um
just that that super fire andbelief in whatever the thing is,
(40:42):
yeah, that has always terrifiedme that I don't have to have to
get these guys to follow you.
I'm a great sergeant, you know.
Let me see SARS and you know,we'll get this stuff done.
But being a general, having thevision and seeing it through
completion is a little bitharder.
Um, and I think the phase oflife that I'm not in yet, but
(41:04):
that I'm walking towards.
SPEAKER_03 (41:06):
Yeah.
It's so interesting though,especially when leadership has
been shown that or demonstratedthat, like movies, TV, real
life, whatever, where that oneequals another, that leadership
equals that.
And how do you be, you know,I've had to learn my own ways of
that.
How do I lead people in a waythat's authentic to me, that
works for my system?
Cause like yelling at peopleisn't my jam.
(41:27):
But like if we need to have aconversation, we can sit and
talk about that.
Let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:32):
Right.
But sort of finding your ownway.
And it's your dual, right?
You're building, you might bebuilding a business, but there's
also the building of Rashad, theversion of you that runs a
business.
Right.
Right.
And something I was talkingabout the other day that I liked
that I don't know where I heardthe first time or not was um
that when I started makingchoices the last few years, I
had to stop making choices fromNatanya who I am today.
(41:56):
And I had to start makingchoices from who I want to be
and like live into thosechoices.
And some of that has been scary.
SPEAKER_01 (42:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:03):
Some of that I was like, I don't know about this.
But all of it has life has heldme back to your like no one is
coming.
But when I've made the choiceand sort of taken the leap, then
Nett has appeared.
The right people have shown up,the right conversations have
happened, and I couldn't haveplanned that.
And that's it requires itrequires a lot of faith.
SPEAKER_00 (42:22):
Faith, man.
Faith in everything, you know,faith and gratitude.
unknown (42:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
You know, it's gonna happen, and when it does, thank
you.
SPEAKER_03 (42:33):
Yeah.
I can't be, I can't, I can'twait to get that phone call of
like, I started it.
No, you know what?
I'm more excited to get the onethat you're leaving the country.
SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:43):
When you buy the ticket, I want a text message or
a phone call, and I want to knowwhere you're going.
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
I will.
I dude, you know, it's thescariest thing for me, and I
don't know why this is, but Ihave to talk about this as we're
kind of rapping.
I have to talk about this.
This happened to me.
I have like the biggest fear oflike planning stuff.
And I'm like, the second I dothis, something's gonna go
wrong.
I want to commit to this, and Ijust have to say this to get it
out of my head and into the realworld, because it happened to me
(43:10):
recently where you know, afriend of mine was like, hey, I
wanna I wanna go see a game.
And I was like, Yeah, man, dude,let's do it.
And uh he's a fan of a team, andand so I found out when the
Rockies were playing a team, Ibought tickets, and like I
bought like good tickets, andnot on my work time, like on my
(43:34):
time.
And you know, of course, youknow me, like I did everything
prior to hey, what's the bestday?
These are the days they're intown, what's the best day?
This is the times.
Oh, this wanna work.
Okay.
And the second I bought thetickets, dude.
(43:56):
Like, I couldn't have predictedthat.
And that's the thing that Ithink happens to me so often is
like who knows what'll behappening at that time.
I'm not gonna commit to this.
And um, and then I end up doingnothing.
SPEAKER_03 (44:12):
Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you, will you go down a
rabbit hole with me for asecond?
SPEAKER_00 (44:15):
Yeah, let's do it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:16):
Um so if that's happened to you and it's
repeated more than once in yourlife, like I want you to go back
to younger Rashad for a minute.
SPEAKER_01 (44:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:25):
Like, where did you either make a commitment or
someone promised you somethingand they didn't show up?
SPEAKER_00 (44:31):
Yeah, man, the earliest memory I have of that
um is honestly my dad.
Uh is my dad would be supposedto pick me up from school and
not show up, or supposed to pickme up for the weekend and not
show up.
Um and so I would get excitedand it wouldn't happen.
(44:51):
And that's like in elementaryschool.
And so in my mind, you know, aslong as I can legit remember,
it's been okay, well, thatthing'll happen when it happens.
SPEAKER_02 (45:05):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
Do you know what I mean?
Like very much a buy tickets atthe door kind of guy.
SPEAKER_03 (45:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (45:13):
Um Well, and it's if that's your experience with
commitment, because yourcommitment fear isn't you.
It's not that you won't show upin a commitment or that you'll
get hurt, it's that the otherperson won't show up, won't meet
you, will bail, will will nothold up their end of the
bargain.
SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
100%.
Right?
100%.
I'm gonna buy tickets to CostaRica, and the day that I'm
supposed to go, they're gonnaclose the country.
unknown (45:37):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's not gonna stop that Ididn't want to go.
We can't come.
SPEAKER_03 (45:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
You know?
SPEAKER_03 (45:50):
Yeah, but it's yeah, but it's and I ask that because
that happens a lot, right?
Where we have all these stuffthat we run into as adults root
somewhere.
And you you'll repeat thepattern if you still have the
belief and you haven'tinterrupted it.
SPEAKER_00 (46:06):
Yeah, I think I that's dude, that's gonna write
that down because that'ssomething to talk to my
therapist about.
And we can probably attack andsome parts work because yeah,
and again, interrupting thepattern is probably the best way
to put it because it continuesto happen.
You know, I plan things and andjust like that.
Sorry that dude, it's not hisfault.
It's totally understandable whyyou know things happen, but my
(46:29):
brain and my heart goes, Oh,there's that like of course it
happened, right?
SPEAKER_03 (46:35):
Of course, yeah, you think that, right?
SPEAKER_00 (46:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so, and it and you're right,it does pause me from doing a
lot of things.
I've been better about it,right?
About committing to things umand trying to make sure, you
know, that I don't die about itwhen it doesn't happen.
That's there there goes thatthinking, right?
That oh, it's not gonna happen,right?
(46:57):
You know, so yeah, I've beenI've been working on it.
I've been at least committing tothings, which is huge.
SPEAKER_03 (47:03):
Well, and like finding, so A, where you learned
that, where had repeated itself,but then also today, finding
ways to break that and tell adifferent story.
So finding evidence of theopposite.
unknown (47:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (47:16):
Where are all the ways in which people show up for
you all the time?
SPEAKER_01 (47:19):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03 (47:20):
Right?
Or go out of their way to planthings for you.
Case in point, this conversationwas my idea.
SPEAKER_01 (47:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (47:27):
Right?
I created it, I invited you, Ishowed up, I tried to make sure
you're having, you know, likethat you have people in all
corners of your life that notonly will show up for you, but
invite you to stuff.
Because they want you to bethere, right?
But it's so interesting becauseit's like that, that can change
your whole life and the way youlook at everything.
SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Yeah.
I agree with that.
I agree with that for sure.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (47:50):
Thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_01 (47:54):
Dude, this was great.
SPEAKER_03 (47:56):
Yeah, I like I said, I I want to know what country it
is, and I want to get a phonecall.
Like I want a picture of theticket you bought.
SPEAKER_00 (48:05):
I'll do it.
I'll make sure you do.
SPEAKER_03 (48:08):
Yeah, please let me know.
Thank you so much for this.
I appreciate you.
And we'll talk soon.
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Yes, we will.
I love you, and this is great.
SPEAKER_03 (48:17):
Love you too.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03 (48:21):
Thank you so much for being here.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
leave a quick rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
It helps more people find theshow.
If you want more of me, head onover to nataniallison.com and
enter your name and email forbehind the scenes updates in
between shows.
New episodes air every Tuesday.
(48:41):
We'll see you next week.
There are moments in life that split us open.
Quiet unraveling, sudden breaks,or truth we didn't know we need
it until we had no choice.
This podcast is about thosemoments.
It's about the turning pointsthat change us, the things I
wish someone had told me that Ionly understand and looking
back.
Come on in, you belong here, andwe're gonna talk about all of
(00:21):
it.
I'm your host, Natanya, and thisis what I didn't know.
Before we begin, a quick note.
This podcast explores themessuch as mental health,
addiction, trauma, and recovery.
While the stories here arehonest and heartfelt, they're
not a substitute forprofessional advice, therapy, or
medical treatment.
(00:42):
Please listen with care andpause anytime you need to.
Take whatever resonates for youand leave the rest.
All right, for today's episode,you're about to meet Rashad
Sutton.
One of the best things aboutRashad, by far, is that where a
lot of people can see somethingthey do externally, a pattern of
behavior, acknowledge it, changeit, and like do something
(01:03):
different externally.
Rashad is a ninja at doing thisinternally.
And so he's great at callinghimself out and oh, I see what I
did there, sort of changinginner thought patterns and
moving forward in a differentdirection because of what he
changes internally.
It's pretty incredible.
So without further ado, here wego.
(01:28):
All right, Rashad, I am so happythat you're here.
What you don't know, I don'tthink you know this story, is
that you and I were on the phonelast year and I was in Steamboat
and I was, I called you.
So Rashad and I know each otherbecause we're both on the same
board of directors for ColoradoArtists of Artists in Recovery,
a nonprofit that's out ofDenver, and we're both on the
(01:49):
board.
And so I had called you to talkabout something board related.
And in the phone conversation,we talked for 45 minutes while I
paced outside in the garage onsome tangent rabbit hole topic
that had nothing to do with whyI called you before we actually
talked.
And after that conversation, Iknew that when I started a
(02:10):
podcast, that you would be thefirst person I called.
SPEAKER_00 (02:13):
That's so sweet.
I didn't know that.
You're right.
I didn't know that.
It's really sweet and it'sreally cool.
I'm stoked for that.
SPEAKER_03 (02:20):
So yeah, I just wanted to tell you that.
And I'm so happy you're here.
Thank you for your time.
But I want to talk about alittle bit, and some of this I
might know, some of it Iprobably don't, is you have gone
through a lot of differentthings in your experience,
different rabbit holes, familyrecovery, all the things, right?
And I want to talk about theplaces and the and the points
across your life.
(02:40):
You pick one of which you broke,right?
That kind of like record scratchmoment where you've been
beboping along and like itdoesn't work anymore.
And you kind of have to look atthat thing.
SPEAKER_00 (02:51):
I had one in active addiction, right?
And it's it's gonna sound uheven a little arrogant.
And please don't take it thatway.
I've um whatever this gift is,I've always had it, right?
I've always I've always been, Idon't know, I guess people would
say charismatic.
I don't really like that.
It's a weird term, but thatthing, whatever, whatever that
(03:12):
is, I've always had it, and I'vealways been able to kind of you
know get through the line withno ID with like a little joke in
a wing.
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_01 (03:22):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (03:23):
That's always a good skill I've had.
And um, you know, after severalyears in my active addiction, I
remember trying to do thatsomewhere, and the person just
looked at me.
And I was like, this is whereyou do the thing.
And they were just looking atme, and it was it was like I
(03:47):
don't I don't have that in thisstate.
I don't have that here.
And that broke me.
Um, that put me in you know, ina hole that it was almost
impossible to get out of that Iwould say um that I would say
(04:09):
I'm only recently recoveringfrom.
SPEAKER_02 (04:11):
Really?
SPEAKER_00 (04:12):
Um yeah, I would say recently.
Um well because it it makes youquestion a it made me question a
lot, right?
Um it made me question, even onthe recovery side, right?
Am I leaning on that too much?
Is that manipulative?
Um I've lived without it.
I don't want to rely on thatbecause it's like having money,
(04:35):
I would imagine, and then youdon't.
You know, it's like, uh, I don'twant to rely on that and then
it'd be gone.
That really broke me.
It really changed me and changedwho I am fundamentally.
I don't I'm trying to think ofin recovery.
Mm-hmm.
Have I had any moments like thatand I haven't.
SPEAKER_03 (04:54):
Well, how about even if it's not like a break, like
when you changed, right?
Yeah.
When you were, what was your atpoint of in recoveries?
Usually there's a there's athing, there's a catalyst,
there's a there's a moment ofwhich you have been like
functioning at this certainlevel or doing a thing, and
suddenly something happens, orsomeone says something to you,
or you have an experience, andthat can be an external
(05:16):
experience or an internalexperience.
But usually like there's a aswitch that flips and you you
have to stop.
SPEAKER_00 (05:22):
I can tell you something.
I can tell you one.
I through all this, I I had kindof lost touch with my daughter.
My daughter is now 22 years old,just turned 22 in June, and um
we had you know lost touch.
Um through active addiction, Iwas really afraid and um I
(05:43):
didn't want her to see me likethat.
Um just didn't really talk toher much.
And um, I was so proud of myselfand like getting sober and um I
had this delusion that I wasjust gonna reach out to her and
things were gonna be fine.
That that we were gonna justpick back up, you know?
(06:05):
And um and that like kind oflike she wasn't a human, but
like this this doll that I couldjust switch back on, you know,
uh-huh.
Put batteries in and be like,alright, well, here we go.
Like it never ended.
And um, I remember gettingslapped in the face with that.
(06:28):
That like that that wasn't thecase, and and I'll tell you
where is I was like nine monthssober, I was so proud of myself,
and uh she invited me to herhigh school graduation.
So I'd fly to California and umout there with my sister and my
mom, and in that very earlyrecovery mindset of everything
is fine.
I did the thing, and uh, Iremember reading her like bio in
(06:51):
their in their graduation likeprogram, and you could see this
she was trying to pull fromthings from her mom and from me,
and the only thing she knewabout me was that I managed
apartments, and that was a knifeto the gut.
Um that was a knife to the gutbecause even in her trying to be
(07:16):
nice and include me, the truthrang out that all she knew about
me is what I used to do forwork.
SPEAKER_02 (07:23):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:24):
Um and to your point, right?
Like what that made me have todo is go, okay, well, it's more
than just okay, I'm around now,let's be better.
I have to build a relationshipwith her and like um not only
get to know her, but like makemyself available to get to know.
(07:46):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:48):
Um there's a double there's a dual both sides of
that, right?
Like you, and I like that youyou're walking into this, like
patting yourself on the back.
SPEAKER_00 (07:57):
Yeah.
Oh yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (07:57):
Like I did good.
Uh-huh.
And not thinking about what thishas been like for her.
SPEAKER_00 (08:02):
What it yeah, man.
Um that it must have been awful.
And it's probably still awful.
You know, that like that, yeah,she just doesn't know me and by
extension doesn't know a pieceof herself.
And um, I think it's what'swhat's dude, and this is the
craziest thing aboutrelationships is it'd be easier
(08:25):
if she just hated me.
SPEAKER_02 (08:28):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (08:29):
Right?
It'd be easier.
SPEAKER_02 (08:30):
And then you don't have to deal with it.
You don't have to, yeah, youdon't have to face that at all.
She just hate you.
SPEAKER_00 (08:36):
It'd be easier if she was like, I just don't want
anything to do with you.
Then I could be like, oh, well,I'm then I get to be still a
good guy, right?
I get to write off a new set.
SPEAKER_03 (08:45):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (08:46):
You know, and be like, I tried, man, I did
everything in my power.
You know, she wasn't having it,and that wasn't the case, you
know.
Um, that wasn't the case.
And so that that really changedhow I approached relationships.
You know, I I like to, when Ithink about it or I talk about
(09:08):
it, I talk about it as just interms of her, but in truth, man,
it absolutely changed how I seerelationships and how I um how I
present myself to people, right?
Um with like consistency andvulnerability, I think, and
those are the like key words Ithink that helped in that
(09:31):
relationship, right?
It's not like perfection.
I think that like right.
I don't have to be perfect, butwhat I do have to do is be
consistent.
If you know what you're what toexpect from me, then even my bad
stuff is not awful.
Because you're you're aware ofit.
I think a lot of times surpriseis worse than um even
(09:55):
disappointment, right?
It's like, oh yeah, I wasn'texpecting that from you.
That's weird.
Why did you react that way?
So yeah, consistency andvulnerability were my lessons
from that.
SPEAKER_03 (10:04):
Well, and I want to go back to what you said about
it would be easier if, right?
Because I'm gonna tell a story,I don't think I've ever told
this out loud, maybe to oneperson, because at the time of
which I was my marriage wasfalling apart, and my ex-husband
was in the hospital ninedifferent times for
alcohol-related issues.
And I was also fully analcoholic, and so that's not a
(10:26):
good combo because I'm enablingthat, also have my own problem,
right?
And sort of blaming him, likethis is his problem because he
keeps ending up in the hospital,but I don't, like, I'm not in
the hospital, I'm good.
SPEAKER_01 (10:36):
You know, I'm good.
SPEAKER_03 (10:38):
But there came a point in time of which I
realized that my brain, and thishad become so normal
functionally for me, and I wasso numb, that my brain would
think, go down the rabbit holeof maybe he maybe he would just
die.
And that's really hard to sayout loud and admit because it
(10:59):
sounds like I'm an awful person.
No, I think it's a good idea.
But the truth, right?
But the truth is it seemedeasier because it was already a
shit show.
It was already a mess.
And my brain was sort of lookingfor freedom.
It was looking for a release.
How do I get out of this?
And at the time, I was not aperson who could face things or
walk the hard road, or I didn'tthink I could be.
(11:21):
And so I just remember thinkingthat more than once and thinking
like how awful I was that Ithought that.
And it was not malicious.
unknown (11:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:29):
It was just because because then if he was no longer
here, I had an out to go startwhat I really wanted and what
was the root of that sort ofthought process, which was I
wanted a different life.
SPEAKER_01 (11:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (11:42):
Right?
And so thinking that if he if hewasn't here anymore, everybody
would understand.
I would be socially acceptable,everyone would understand that
we grieve and move on.
And I I had a free canvas to gobuild a new life on.
Um, but the the the thing behindit being like, that's the easy
route because then I don't haveto face it.
(12:03):
And then I don't have to takeany responsibility or do any
work, and everybody understands,and I'm still the good girl.
SPEAKER_00 (12:09):
Yeah, man.
You don't have to face right.
It's like it's like it's youdon't have to take any
accountability.
SPEAKER_03 (12:15):
Nope.
SPEAKER_00 (12:15):
You know, and um, dude, accountability sucks.
SPEAKER_01 (12:24):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (12:25):
You know, I've been watching like crash TV at the
coworkers, and I watch thesepeople attempt to apologize and
take accountability, and it's sohard to say, hey, regardless of
your actions, my actions wereunacceptable, and I I apologize
(12:49):
for that.
I'm truly sorry, and um, I'mgonna do my best to be a better
person.
The things I did, I I don't likeabout I don't like that I did
those things, and I hate that Idid them to you, and it seems so
hard for people to say that,like without justification and
without like you know, but ifyou hadn't have been there,
(13:11):
right?
And I I think that's the partthat like you know, now I have
to face this relationship inwhich I could fail.
Yeah, in which there's a chancethat she gets to know me and
doesn't like me.
Um and if that happens in thebeginning, whatever I tried,
it's over.
But like you said, if I now haveto now I have now I have to try.
(13:34):
You know what I mean?
But in your case, it's so mucheven trickier, right?
Because especially if the if atthe time you're drinking, you
don't even know what change ornew life looks like.
SPEAKER_03 (13:51):
No, not at all.
Like couldn't fathom.
And it's like the amount ofpeople that affected, right?
Like it it's just easier if I gothe route that my brain was
going, and I understand why mybrain did that.
But what I actually did, what inhindsight was so magical because
it was like going through thetrenches, but it's where you
it's like you you change andgrow from all the shit that's
(14:14):
hard, which we all know isvaluable now, but at the moment
it was not something I wanted tolook at.
I had to tell the truth tomyself first, all of the things
that and all of the things aboutthe marriage, of everything
about the life that I had that Iwas I had actively participated
in every decision that got methere.
And I was miserable.
And so I had to admit all ofthat to me.
(14:36):
Then I had to confront him andhave a conversation, and he was
not on the same page.
That was not a mutual split.
SPEAKER_01 (14:44):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (14:45):
Right.
And so I have to face watchingsomeone go through the stages of
grief at me, right?
And then once that happened,also let me tell you, because
nobody told me this, the stagesof grief do not go in order.
No, there's no specifictimeline, it's not one, two,
three, four, five, and they cango back and forth, and you can
go back to them several times.
(15:06):
Like it's all over the place.
And when someone's doing that atyou, it's messy, right?
But so then I had to go, oncethat happened, then I had to
tell people, right?
And because I had created afacade of what my life looked
like, what the day I told mymom, my sister, and my
brother-in-law, they were all inthe kitchen at my sister's
house, and I and I said, like, Ineed to talk to you.
(15:27):
Um, I think I'm gonna get adivorce.
They looked at me like I had twoheads because they didn't know,
because I had lied and I hadpainted this like we're all
good.
And the the he and the me andthe us that we showed people
wasn't perfect, but it was notthe truth at all.
And so they didn't know.
And then his family, right?
Which is there's all thesedifferent impacts, like people
(15:48):
that had left me and taken me inas their family.
I had to hurt them.
And that is something that is sohard.
SPEAKER_00 (15:55):
I that brings me to this place where I there's
something I did want to talkabout.
Um I've been it should havetalked about, and it's this
alchemical thing that happenswhen you do stuff.
I don't know what more eloquentway to put that.
But like Right?
So, like when you you're havingthese thoughts, and you're like,
(16:20):
okay, you're basically soundslike having a thought around how
do I change my life from this?
And so then you purpose in yourheart to do a thing, right?
You're like, I'm going to splitfrom this marriage.
I feel like there's and nottalking about it, right?
Not talking about it.
(16:41):
Like there's some magic thathappens when you do a thing.
You move into you moving.
There's some magic that happenedin there.
Um for for me for me recently, Iwas feeling I was feeling uh
dude, that's another reason whyit hit.
(17:02):
I was feeling so likedisconnected um people.
Sad.
Probably a better way to put it.
Um and um and I wasn't doinganything about it, I was just
pouting about it.
Um, I was just pouting about it,and I was like going to work and
(17:25):
doing my thing and you know,trying to work out and coming
home.
And it was just sad.
And um I was like, hey, well,I'm gonna I'm gonna be I'm gonna
be the friend that I want.
SPEAKER_01 (17:42):
Uh-huh.
SPEAKER_00 (17:43):
Right?
I'm gonna be the friend that Iwant.
Um and so I started callingpeople, you know, and and not
with no intention.
I just started calling people.
SPEAKER_03 (17:53):
I started Was that when you texted me?
SPEAKER_00 (17:57):
Probably.
SPEAKER_03 (17:58):
And it was a random day, and I was not that we don't
check in every once in a while,but it was like really random.
And I was it was really sweetwhat you said, and I was like,
to what do I owe this beautifulmessage on like a Tuesday
morning?
SPEAKER_00 (18:10):
Yeah, right.
And I think um so much, and notthat we do things to give
things, but I mean, obviously,this is a result of that.
There's so many things that havehappened in my life as a result,
and what I found, what I foundis um man, other people are
lonely too.
(18:31):
You know, do you know what Imean?
Um, but they're not.
SPEAKER_02 (18:35):
I felt that.
SPEAKER_00 (18:36):
Do you know what I mean?
But they're not.
SPEAKER_02 (18:38):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (18:39):
There's that thing that somebody has to break it,
but right, we I would muchrather keep up, and that's what
I think hooked me, right?
I would much rather keep thisfacade of you thinking.
Yeah, oh, I have all this stuffto do, and I'm so busy, and
everyone's talking to me, andI'm so important, then break
down and tell you, hey, I'mlonely, can we go get a bowl of
(19:01):
soup?
Like, really, do you know what Imean?
Like, no, because you'll knowthe truth about me.
And so there's something likeit's like an alchemy that
happens when you when you dostuff, when you put life in
motion, right?
When you're like, okay, I'mgonna I'm gonna push forward on
(19:23):
this.
I'm gonna do this, I'm gonna bethis person.
Um God, it's so I'm right on thecusp of being able to explain
that.
It's like, um the the term I'vebeen using for this feeling is
help's not coming.
SPEAKER_03 (19:43):
Yes, we talked about this.
SPEAKER_00 (19:44):
We talked about this.
SPEAKER_03 (19:45):
Like no one's coming to save you.
SPEAKER_00 (19:47):
No one's coming to save you.
SPEAKER_03 (19:48):
No one's coming.
SPEAKER_00 (19:49):
It's fine, no one's coming.
But the the alchemy, and that'sprobably the best way to put it,
the alchemy of it is once youstart, the cavalry comes.
Yes, magic.
That's the yes, that's themagic.
SPEAKER_03 (20:02):
That was a great way to say that, right?
SPEAKER_00 (20:04):
You no one's coming, and no one's coming, but once
you start, then dude, then youstart to receive this abundance
of like help and support andthings that you just were not
expecting, you know.
Um and I think, you know, goingall the way back to the very
(20:25):
first question you asked me,that probably has been a
breakdown for me.
Maybe that's one, right?
Where I was in this funk and Iwas like, okay, well, I gotta do
something.
I gotta, you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (20:39):
Well, and that thing, that like stagnation
doesn't create energy.
It doesn't create, I mean, Idon't like the term
manifestation, but creatingthings to occur in your life,
creating opportunities andconnections and movement.
Like movement, it's like what isthe scientific like inertia is a
body in motion, stays in motion.
SPEAKER_00 (21:00):
Yeah, it's like one of the means laws.
SPEAKER_03 (21:02):
Yeah, right, right, right.
So you have to start moving.
And sometimes that means achoice or a decision.
And often I'll talk to peopleand it's like they're waiting
for something, right?
And they're in a in a funk or ina place or sort of, I don't know
about this, or and it's it mightbe that they're waiting for the
right the right thing, the rightchoice, the right time.
They're waiting for someone elseto bring the thing up to have
(21:22):
the conversation that they wantto talk about, um, or just to
make the the decision to go outto do the end the thing, to
start the thing, whatever,whatever it is.
And it's in that waiting, youget stagnant and you do get
things like lonely, and then youyou start to tell stories,
right?
Which aren't true usually, butthat I'm alone and nobody cares.
(21:43):
And and I love that it's such ayou know, middle school-esque
story, but that it's just stilltrue, and that's not bad.
It's just like I I am lonely,right?
And I've we've talked about thata little bit with I chose again
for the second time in my lifeto move to a city or a state
where I knew no one.
I did not know a single personin Tennessee that I was aware of
(22:04):
when I got here, right?
And so there's a lot that comesalong with that.
But part of that, once thebusyness settled, right, is that
I had to also acknowledge that Iwas lonely and that some of the
things and places where peoplewould go meet people, I don't
want to do to my gym anymore.
So what do I do with that?
And I did have a little bit ofthe pity party.
SPEAKER_00 (22:26):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And the like, meh, you know.
Oh, it's funny.
I love it.
I love it in that place.
I love it.
SPEAKER_03 (22:33):
But then at the point of which it's okay, well,
nobody's coming to save you.
And I don't mean that.
I so don't mean that in a in amean way, in a attacking way, in
a not caring way, or thatthere's not people that want to
help you and support you.
Because I absolutely think thatthere are, right?
But you just can't, you can'tlike you're giving your power
away by waiting for someone elseto be the CEO of your life.
SPEAKER_00 (22:56):
Dude, I'll say it, I'll say it another way.
Wear those wear those jeans.
You know?
Yes.
You know what I mean?
Do you know those jeans thatyou're saving for like the
perfect party or whatever?
Yes.
You're like, I don't want to ifI wash them too many times,
they're gonna get a weird color.
Wear them, dude.
You should wear those.
You know, wear those jeans, wearthose shoes, do the thing.
(23:18):
Like, you know, um, it it doessound negative, but it's so
incredibly positive in like mywar cry right now that you know
help is not coming.
Um and and yeah, that justbecause I do that with
everything.
I do it with everything, I do itwith everything except for
(23:38):
money, right?
I wish I could do it with money.
I wish I could just be like, oh,don't spin that.
But I spend you know money.
Um but yeah, do the thing, youknow, do the thing and and like
yeah, I don't know.
It's there's something in therethat I haven't I'm not 100% and
(24:03):
I haven't got it figured outyet, but that I'm working on in
this place in my life where I amum trying to just continually
move forward, you know, andinstead of that's another thing,
right?
You see, you mentioned this thatum we kind of have all these
things in our head or all thesereasons why not.
(24:25):
And that's why these kind ofconversations are important
because there's nobody to argueagainst your doubt if you keep
it in your head.
Right?
And so in your head, you'relike, oh well, that's a crazy
idea.
I'll never do that.
And you know, your other partsare like, Yeah, whatever, yeah,
that sounds crazy.
(24:46):
But when you put that thing outinto the world by either doing
or by at least acknowledginghaving a circle like this and
conversations, then you havethis other part that's not in
you that can say, Oh, no, thatsounds great.
You should yeah, absolutely dothat.
SPEAKER_03 (25:01):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (25:02):
And you're like, I didn't think that was possible
for me.
And it's like, yeah, man, yeah,you can do that.
Um, so those things are yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (25:11):
And even this podcast is a great example.
I've been talking about it for ayear or two.
It was kind of on the backburner, and then I had I did all
these other things, so it had towait.
And then suddenly it got quiet,and I was like, oh, and then
this, and then I changed jobs,and then I moved to Nashville,
and then I was starting a newjob there, and like it wasn't
the right time.
And then suddenly I was like, Ithink it's time.
Oh shit, right?
(25:32):
And then, but then I have tooverride me because I get in the
way.
And so stuff like for me,perfectionism is a thing that I
have to work on of where there's600 things that would stop me
from doing this if I let thatget in the way.
Everything from what I'm wearingto what's behind me, to which
audio I use, to what programwe're recording this on, to the
(25:53):
schedule and the timeline andthe topics and the right first
question.
And what do you, you know, andthen how do you promote it?
You could get so lost.
And I did for a minute.
And then I just sort of had thatconversation of like, if I have
to just start, you just have tobegin, otherwise, I'll never do
it.
And I'll always be waiting forthe best version of this.
And so something I did thathelped me the other day, I was
watching a podcast and it waslike episode 500 of this
(26:16):
particular podcast.
Yeah, yeah.
And I, for my own, they have avideo version, it was on
YouTube.
And so I went back in thearchives to episode one because
it was all it's on a stage,right?
It's staged, it's beautifully,you know, produced, and clearly
this is a professional setting.
And so I went back to episodeone, episode two, and it's the
(26:37):
same guy.
He's just on headphones in hisoffice, asking it like they're
just it's just like this.
And I was like, okay, I'm justgonna, we're just gonna do this.
I'm in my apartment.
I'm not gonna hang things on thewall behind me.
This is the way the light comesin, and that's it.
Because otherwise I won't begin.
And I can I can find a millionreasons not to begin.
unknown (26:55):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (26:56):
And then I won't do anything.
SPEAKER_00 (26:57):
And you're stuck, and then you're sad, and then
you're um Yeah, you're stuck.
You're stuck.
So yeah, man, there's magic inlike doing the thing.
There's so much magic in doingthe thing.
SPEAKER_03 (27:10):
Um What are you in this moment like most most
anticipating, most nervousabout, most not sure what you're
gonna start, most overthinkingin any area of your life.
SPEAKER_00 (27:24):
Um most like apprehensive, you know, I think
um you're gonna hate this somuch.
You're gonna you're gonna when Itell you, you're gonna hate this
so much.
The thing that I can't seem toget myself to do is get out of
the country.
I've never been, I'd like totake either a trip, you know, I
(27:47):
think with people is fine, butI'd like even just a solo trip,
just some even just as easy asMexico.
I went through all the work,have given myself a passport,
um, I've never stamped it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:00):
Oh dang.
Like ever.
SPEAKER_00 (28:03):
Ever.
I've never left never left thecountry.
And now, and like that's why Isaid I know you're gonna hate
this, because now I'm like, Ihave the job, I have the
passport, I have the time.
Mm-hmm.
And I just just literally havenot done it.
SPEAKER_03 (28:20):
What is your what is your hiccup?
What is the thing that like, ifyou're honest about what happens
in your head, what what hitspause and then diverts you
somewhere else?
SPEAKER_00 (28:28):
I think up until up until maybe like this month,
literally, because it takes timeto build, it was finances.
SPEAKER_02 (28:36):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (28:37):
Um I didn't have, you know, a grand or a couple
grand that I could just burn,and I don't have any credit
cards.
As wild as that may sound, Idon't have any credit cards.
So I didn't have a reserve fromthat I could pull from to be
able to do it.
It's a lot, it's a lot differentto go to Wyoming, you know, you
get like Yes.
You know what I mean?
(29:00):
It's just cheaper, you know, andI could stock away, you know,
$500 or whatever for like a triplike that or even to California.
Um, but I think it's beenfinances, and so I'd like to um
I have it on my goals for thisyear to have something booked.
No, by the it by the last day ofthis year.
(29:21):
Um I'm gonna book something.
Um, but that's been the thingthat I that for me I feel like
is such a hurdle for me.
I've never been out of thecountry and I'd like to.
Um I don't have any reason notto.
I don't have any reason not to.
I think other than that, um, andI think dude, and in like it's
(29:41):
the beauty in questions likethis.
Other than that, things aregoing pretty well in terms of
and maybe that's a thing too.
I'll give you another one.
I'm toying with this idea ofstarting a business.
SPEAKER_03 (29:57):
Ooh, tell me more.
SPEAKER_00 (29:59):
Um I That's almost all I have right now.
SPEAKER_03 (30:01):
I'm so interested in what I don't even care what it
is.
Rashad is starting a business.
Take my money.
What are you what are you doing?
SPEAKER_00 (30:09):
I don't know, but I think it I think uh and look at
me like applying stuff that Ilearned or that I had a
conversation about.
So, you know, I mean things aregoing well and are easy and are
fine.
I don't feel complacent yet.
I don't feel like the house ison fire and I'm like, this is
cool, I'll just stay here.
(30:29):
I do feel content, right?
Um and so when I was talking to,you know, people that I that I
admire about that feeling, theywere like, well, now's the time
to challenge yourself.
If everything is fine, it's timefor you to create some
disruption.
It's time for you to create athing.
(30:50):
And they were like, is it gonnabe scary?
It is, and it's probably gonnasuck for a little bit.
But that thing that you'relooking for, if you don't do it
positively, you'll do itnegatively.
SPEAKER_03 (31:01):
I can get that.
SPEAKER_00 (31:02):
Do you know what I mean?
SPEAKER_03 (31:04):
Yeah, because the negative version, especially in
recovery world, is creatingchaos.
SPEAKER_00 (31:09):
It's creating chaos.
SPEAKER_03 (31:10):
You create chaos because it's a distraction, it
feels like drama, it'sinteresting, it's whatever, and
it's never in an optimisticlight, right?
SPEAKER_01 (31:17):
No.
SPEAKER_03 (31:18):
Um, but I like that the sort of whoever said
whatever quote about if yourdreams don't scare you, they're
not big enough.
SPEAKER_00 (31:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:25):
And I I I will say I think I do a pretty good job of
keeping myself close enough tothat that I'll get comfortable.
SPEAKER_01 (31:33):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:34):
And then be like, you're not, you know, you're not
kind of going for it.
And you don't want to just liveon the edge all the time either,
because I think there's a lot ofto be said for integration and
taking breaks and you know,balancing out.
But I think you know when that'strue.
And it's also even the word youuse, I will say this because it
it's always not a red flag, buta note, a notated word when
(31:57):
people say they're fine.
SPEAKER_00 (31:58):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (31:59):
You know, like I'm fine, I'm good.
It's like a word people hidebehind.
And it's not good or bad.
It's just sort of like, what areyou not saying?
SPEAKER_01 (32:07):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (32:07):
But and I say that about whatever business you
create.
And one of the reasons I liketalking to you much is because
you do such a good job ofwalking through the things that
we all talk about, right?
And it and whenever we end up inconversation, it's always like,
yes, these are wins.
I'm doing this over here.
I'm still, I'm still learning onthis other curve over here,
(32:28):
right?
And you do that in such a greatjob.
That authenticity, I think, justI think people resonate with it.
It's one of the reasons, like Isaid, I like to talk to you, is
because you'll just be like,Yeah, what's this thing about
over here?
And let's talk about it.
And I'm so interested in thesame type of thing.
So you at the helm of whateveryou create, right?
Virtual, brick and mortar,whatever, whatever it has to do
(32:49):
with.
I'm so curious to see what youdo.
And I think there's a lot ofpeople that would probably get
behind that for similar reasons,whatever it was, just to be
like, You got this.
Yeah, I just have any thoughtsabout not even the top like what
aspect of the world it's in orwhat you just don't know.
SPEAKER_00 (33:08):
I think the you know, my personal purpose and
like goal in life is to helpyoung men struggling with
recovery, right?
Either in it or in the middle ofit or thinking about it.
And so I don't know.
I'd like for whatever I build tobe purpose-driven, right?
And if it can um if it canbenefit financially, then that's
great.
Um, and I'm not just talkingaltruistically, I do, but I
(33:30):
think if I'm gonna spend my timein space on something, I wanted
to do that, right?
I think I wanted to help peopleand help and by by extension
help me.
Um so I think somewhere in thatspace, you know, unless somebody
has a really good deal on tires,maybe I'll sell tires.
SPEAKER_03 (33:48):
But even what you said, like that's such a I wanna
I wanna talk about that becausethat was important.
The altruistic and theespecially in the world of
people who have jobs wherecaring or empathy or giving or
service of any kind is aboutother people, which is a lot of
jobs, by the way.
Um there's often this likesocietal norm that's become okay
(34:10):
that the exchange is thatthey're broke and or on the edge
of burnout, if not overburnedout, right?
And like when I had worked inSteamboat for a nonprofit, I got
to that point and like I justremember being like, this isn't
okay, because it's close tocosting me rent my recovery.
I'm broke, I'm burnt out, I'mexhausted, and I can't like
input to me because I've givenso much to everybody else.
(34:32):
And this isn't okay, right?
And so I made many choices afterthat, but I just sort of like
promise to myself that I willkeep doing work that matters,
not at the exchange of me beingbroke.
And in fact, that like I'mallowed the opposite of being
broke, right?
And that I'm allowed to havemore and keep more and share
more and be generous with moreand do more in my own life.
(34:54):
And that's been a active thing Ihave had to practice breaking in
my own head.
SPEAKER_00 (34:59):
100%.
And I I agree with that, right?
I I deal with much of the samein that like um it it feels like
um sometimes if you'reprofitable, you must be doing
something immoral or illegal.
(35:20):
Um because that's the only wayyou make make you know money in
this space.
And that's just first of all,it's just not true.
And I like you, I love what yousaid about having to break that
stigma in my own head.
I think so much we think aboutstigma, and it's only, oh, well,
if you have holes in your jeansor whatever, you must be
homeless.
And it's stigma is so much farmore far reaching than that, you
(35:42):
know, um, and approaches peoplewith money and with success as
well.
So yeah, yeah, I'm dealing withthat.
I'm dealing with that.
Trying to find somethingpositive to build.
I think I have to, and that'swhat I mean by fine.
And you're right, like, dude,it's so imperceptive to pick up
on that and thoughtful that whenI say fine, that is exactly what
(36:05):
I mean.
I mean things are they're fine.
I don't have anything tocomplain about, and I want to
make sure that I'm not in thatweird space of losing gratitude.
Um, but I'm not excited aboutanything right now either.
Um and that can be, especiallyfor you know, an alcoholic like
myself, so detrimental becausejust like you said, if I don't
(36:28):
have anything to be excitedabout, I'm gonna make something
to be excited about in the wrongdirection.
Yeah, in the wrong direction.
SPEAKER_03 (36:37):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (36:38):
And so I have to be aware of that.
SPEAKER_03 (36:40):
Yeah, for sure.
I'm so curious to see what thatwhat that looks like and what
that unfolds.
What would you what would whatfeels exciting about anything
right now?
Like you just said you don'treally have anything you're
excited about.
What would what would be nice tobe excited about?
SPEAKER_00 (36:54):
You know, I don't know.
I I don't know as far as I don'tlet me say like this, because
this is more accurate.
The fear is louder than theexcitement right now.
SPEAKER_03 (37:07):
I got you.
SPEAKER_00 (37:09):
I can't, you know what I mean?
I can't I don't have anythinglike oh, this is a thing.
Um, I think this being the firsttime I'm saying it out loud um
is is a step in the rightdirection.
And not that, oh, I probablyshould because you're telling me
I should and you're you you knowmore stuff, but like, hey, this
is a thing that I pro that Ithink I should do.
This is the first time of melike owning that and saying it
(37:31):
out loud, and so I think I'm onthat step before I don't I don't
have anything yet where I'mlike, oh, this is the thing I'd
want to build.
SPEAKER_03 (37:39):
Well, and I love that like that's okay.
SPEAKER_00 (37:41):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (37:41):
Right?
There's I have things I want tobuild, right?
And the actual concrete form ofthat has shifted many times.
There's only a couple aspects ofit that I'm very sure of.
And the rest of it, people askme, and I don't answer all that
much because it's kind of stillunfolding.
And this actual thing that we'rein right now is one step of
that.
Part of it has to do with beingseen more and using my voice and
(38:03):
talking about the things thatnobody ever talked about, right?
But the whole big picture, Ican't write you in this moment
of full business plan.
I could talk, I could talk agood outline, right, of where I
want to head and what I thinkthat is, but it also also
informed by the way I movethroughout the world.
SPEAKER_01 (38:19):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (38:20):
Right.
And like who I run into and Ilike perspective of things,
right?
Back to movement.
When you make a new choice, evenif it's to move like three steps
to the left, now you can seelike a little bit farther around
the door than you could seebefore.
And you might have anotherthought there or meet a
different person.
And so, like, that's the beautyof things.
I also have to check myself tonot let that be a reason to not
(38:42):
do anything.
Because I'm always like, oh, I'mjust waiting and I haven't met
the thing yet, and I'm inmovement.
And you're you're you're notactually doing anything.
It's been a long time of sort ofexcuses, right?
SPEAKER_00 (38:52):
Yeah, help's not coming.
You gotta do it.
Like, yeah, you know, and andand I think all of these things
are are building towards athing.
I know that was like the mostunspecific sentence.
But I do know that, right?
I know that in my soul is thatall of these things are building
towards a thing.
Even that refrain, right, oflike, hey, help's not coming,
(39:15):
let's not get stuck in themoney.
You know, let's not get stuck inthis.
That is something I neededbefore I could do the next
thing.
Do you know I needed to wrap mybrain around that before I can
move forward?
But yeah, something.
We just don't know what.
SPEAKER_03 (39:31):
Yeah, but I'm so curious to see what that is.
And like I said, and also justbecause I think you're a good
leader, right?
In in the aspects that we talkedabout before.
And I know you lead people inwork and other things and other
aspects of things that you do.
And I think it's a quietstrength that people respond to,
right?
They can go talk to you, you canhold space for things.
You do a really good job of sortof seeing multiple sides and
(39:54):
considering.
Oh, I could see why we'd go thatway and go this way, right?
SPEAKER_00 (39:57):
No, I think um, yeah, man, I think being a
leader for me, and especially ina leading, dude.
That's the that's the thing.
I've said this my whole lifethat like um man, I'm a I don't
want to be a general, and that'sthe hurdle I think I'm trying to
get over in my life, right?
I'm cool in being a general.
(40:18):
I can get those guys to followyou, but I don't want to be the
one with the vision.
Um, and I and I don't know whythat's always scared me, but it
it always has.
There's something aboutcommitting totally and like um
just that that super fire andbelief in whatever the thing is,
(40:42):
yeah, that has always terrifiedme that I don't have to have to
get these guys to follow you.
I'm a great sergeant, you know.
Let me see SARS and you know,we'll get this stuff done.
But being a general, having thevision and seeing it through
completion is a little bitharder.
Um, and I think the phase oflife that I'm not in yet, but
(41:04):
that I'm walking towards.
SPEAKER_03 (41:06):
Yeah.
It's so interesting though,especially when leadership has
been shown that or demonstratedthat, like movies, TV, real
life, whatever, where that oneequals another, that leadership
equals that.
And how do you be, you know,I've had to learn my own ways of
that.
How do I lead people in a waythat's authentic to me, that
works for my system?
Cause like yelling at peopleisn't my jam.
(41:27):
But like if we need to have aconversation, we can sit and
talk about that.
Let's talk about it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:31):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (41:32):
Right.
But sort of finding your ownway.
And it's your dual, right?
You're building, you might bebuilding a business, but there's
also the building of Rashad, theversion of you that runs a
business.
Right.
Right.
And something I was talkingabout the other day that I liked
that I don't know where I heardthe first time or not was um
that when I started makingchoices the last few years, I
had to stop making choices fromNatanya who I am today.
(41:56):
And I had to start makingchoices from who I want to be
and like live into thosechoices.
And some of that has been scary.
SPEAKER_01 (42:03):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:03):
Some of that I was like, I don't know about this.
But all of it has life has heldme back to your like no one is
coming.
But when I've made the choiceand sort of taken the leap, then
Nett has appeared.
The right people have shown up,the right conversations have
happened, and I couldn't haveplanned that.
And that's it requires itrequires a lot of faith.
SPEAKER_00 (42:22):
Faith, man.
Faith in everything, you know,faith and gratitude.
unknown (42:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (42:29):
You know, it's gonna happen, and when it does, thank
you.
SPEAKER_03 (42:33):
Yeah.
I can't be, I can't, I can'twait to get that phone call of
like, I started it.
No, you know what?
I'm more excited to get the onethat you're leaving the country.
SPEAKER_00 (42:42):
Oh, yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (42:43):
When you buy the ticket, I want a text message or
a phone call, and I want to knowwhere you're going.
SPEAKER_00 (42:48):
I will.
I dude, you know, it's thescariest thing for me, and I
don't know why this is, but Ihave to talk about this as we're
kind of rapping.
I have to talk about this.
This happened to me.
I have like the biggest fear oflike planning stuff.
And I'm like, the second I dothis, something's gonna go
wrong.
I want to commit to this, and Ijust have to say this to get it
out of my head and into the realworld, because it happened to me
(43:10):
recently where you know, afriend of mine was like, hey, I
wanna I wanna go see a game.
And I was like, Yeah, man, dude,let's do it.
And uh he's a fan of a team, andand so I found out when the
Rockies were playing a team, Ibought tickets, and like I
bought like good tickets, andnot on my work time, like on my
(43:34):
time.
And you know, of course, youknow me, like I did everything
prior to hey, what's the bestday?
These are the days they're intown, what's the best day?
This is the times.
Oh, this wanna work.
Okay.
And the second I bought thetickets, dude.
(43:56):
Like, I couldn't have predictedthat.
And that's the thing that Ithink happens to me so often is
like who knows what'll behappening at that time.
I'm not gonna commit to this.
And um, and then I end up doingnothing.
SPEAKER_03 (44:12):
Yeah, so I'm gonna ask you, will you go down a
rabbit hole with me for asecond?
SPEAKER_00 (44:15):
Yeah, let's do it.
SPEAKER_03 (44:16):
Um so if that's happened to you and it's
repeated more than once in yourlife, like I want you to go back
to younger Rashad for a minute.
SPEAKER_01 (44:24):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (44:25):
Like, where did you either make a commitment or
someone promised you somethingand they didn't show up?
SPEAKER_00 (44:31):
Yeah, man, the earliest memory I have of that
um is honestly my dad.
Uh is my dad would be supposedto pick me up from school and
not show up, or supposed to pickme up for the weekend and not
show up.
Um and so I would get excitedand it wouldn't happen.
(44:51):
And that's like in elementaryschool.
And so in my mind, you know, aslong as I can legit remember,
it's been okay, well, thatthing'll happen when it happens.
SPEAKER_02 (45:05):
Mm-hmm.
SPEAKER_00 (45:06):
Do you know what I mean?
Like very much a buy tickets atthe door kind of guy.
SPEAKER_03 (45:12):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:12):
Do you know?
SPEAKER_03 (45:13):
Um Well, and it's if that's your experience with
commitment, because yourcommitment fear isn't you.
It's not that you won't show upin a commitment or that you'll
get hurt, it's that the otherperson won't show up, won't meet
you, will bail, will will nothold up their end of the
bargain.
SPEAKER_00 (45:29):
100%.
Right?
100%.
I'm gonna buy tickets to CostaRica, and the day that I'm
supposed to go, they're gonnaclose the country.
unknown (45:37):
You know what I mean?
SPEAKER_00 (45:39):
Do you know what I mean?
Like it's not gonna stop that Ididn't want to go.
We can't come.
SPEAKER_03 (45:48):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (45:49):
You know?
SPEAKER_03 (45:50):
Yeah, but it's yeah, but it's and I ask that because
that happens a lot, right?
Where we have all these stuffthat we run into as adults root
somewhere.
And you you'll repeat thepattern if you still have the
belief and you haven'tinterrupted it.
SPEAKER_00 (46:06):
Yeah, I think I that's dude, that's gonna write
that down because that'ssomething to talk to my
therapist about.
And we can probably attack andsome parts work because yeah,
and again, interrupting thepattern is probably the best way
to put it because it continuesto happen.
You know, I plan things and andjust like that.
Sorry that dude, it's not hisfault.
It's totally understandable whyyou know things happen, but my
(46:29):
brain and my heart goes, Oh,there's that like of course it
happened, right?
SPEAKER_03 (46:35):
Of course, yeah, you think that, right?
SPEAKER_00 (46:37):
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And so, and it and you're right,it does pause me from doing a
lot of things.
I've been better about it,right?
About committing to things umand trying to make sure, you
know, that I don't die about itwhen it doesn't happen.
That's there there goes thatthinking, right?
That oh, it's not gonna happen,right?
(46:57):
You know, so yeah, I've beenI've been working on it.
I've been at least committing tothings, which is huge.
SPEAKER_03 (47:03):
Well, and like finding, so A, where you learned
that, where had repeated itself,but then also today, finding
ways to break that and tell adifferent story.
So finding evidence of theopposite.
unknown (47:16):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (47:16):
Where are all the ways in which people show up for
you all the time?
SPEAKER_01 (47:19):
Yeah, 100%.
SPEAKER_03 (47:20):
Right?
Or go out of their way to planthings for you.
Case in point, this conversationwas my idea.
SPEAKER_01 (47:26):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (47:27):
Right?
I created it, I invited you, Ishowed up, I tried to make sure
you're having, you know, likethat you have people in all
corners of your life that notonly will show up for you, but
invite you to stuff.
Because they want you to bethere, right?
But it's so interesting becauseit's like that, that can change
your whole life and the way youlook at everything.
SPEAKER_00 (47:44):
Yeah.
I agree with that.
I agree with that for sure.
Absolutely.
SPEAKER_03 (47:50):
Thank you so much for being here.
SPEAKER_00 (47:52):
Thanks for having me.
SPEAKER_03 (47:53):
I appreciate you.
SPEAKER_01 (47:54):
Dude, this was great.
SPEAKER_03 (47:56):
Yeah, I like I said, I I want to know what country it
is, and I want to get a phonecall.
Like I want a picture of theticket you bought.
SPEAKER_00 (48:05):
I'll do it.
I'll make sure you do.
SPEAKER_03 (48:08):
Yeah, please let me know.
Thank you so much for this.
I appreciate you.
And we'll talk soon.
SPEAKER_00 (48:14):
Yes, we will.
I love you, and this is great.
SPEAKER_03 (48:17):
Love you too.
Bye.
SPEAKER_00 (48:18):
Bye-bye.
SPEAKER_03 (48:21):
Thank you so much for being here.
It means more than you know.
If you enjoyed this episode,please share it with a friend or
leave a quick rating or reviewwherever you listen to podcasts.
It helps more people find theshow.
If you want more of me, head onover to nataniallison.com and
enter your name and email forbehind the scenes updates in
between shows.
New episodes air every Tuesday.
(48:41):
We'll see you next week.
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Current and classic episodes, featuring compelling true-crime mysteries, powerful documentaries and in-depth investigations. Follow now to get the latest episodes of Dateline NBC completely free, or subscribe to Dateline Premium for ad-free listening and exclusive bonus content: DatelinePremium.com
The Breakfast Club
The World's Most Dangerous Morning Show, The Breakfast Club, With DJ Envy, Jess Hilarious, And Charlamagne Tha God!