August 2, 2023 • 36 mins
Meet the woman who's standing up to corruption in Madagascar. Join us for a candid conversation with Dr. Ketakandriana Rafitoson, a fierce human rights defender and activist, known to many as Ke. In this riveting episode, Ke walks us through her groundbreaking work, from blowing the whistle on a potential case of corruption and money laundering involving Madagascar's lychee trade with the European Union, to her poignant resignation from the administrative jurisdiction following a heartrending case. Ke's story is a testament to the power of individual action in standing up against corruption – and it promises to leave you inspired.
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Episode Transcript
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Marie Berry (00:00):
My guest today is Dr Ketakandriana Rafitosan, also
known as Kay, who is a Malagasyindependent researcher, human
rights defender and activist.
Kay is a fierce campaigneragainst corruption in Madagascar
and a staunch believer inpeople power.
I first met Kay in 2017, whenshe joined the first ever IGLI
Summer Institute in Colorado.
(00:21):
She arrived after a more than40 hour plane ride, with an
exuberance and energy that madeall of us quickly realize how
powerful she is.
She was also extremely pregnantwith her third child.
Nonetheless, over the pastyears, kay has continued to
impress all of us with her workagainst corruption, and she has
(00:42):
joined up with largerorganizations like Transparency
International to run theiranti-corruption work in the
country.
She also became the nationalcoordinator for Madagascar's
Publish what you Pay, and shecompleted not one, but two PhDs
one in political science and onein development sociology.
Kay's work has put her squarelyin the crosshairs of many
(01:05):
powerful groups whose corruptpractices are threatened by her
work.
In November 2022, kay wasjudicially harassed by a
powerful and politicallyconnected Malagasy conglomerate
of leachy exporters for blowingthe whistle about a potential
case of corruption and moneylaundering and the leachy trade
between Madagascar and theEuropean Union.
(01:25):
Kay and I were reunited in March2023 in Kathmandu, nepal, where
we were both participants in aconvening of more than 80
activists from 44 countries.
Thus, the conversation that youare about to hear happened in
my hotel room at this conference, with a view of the Kathmandu
skyline.
Can you set the stage bytelling us what it is?
(02:15):
You're from Madagascar, Ibelieve.
The fourth largest country inAfrica by land size Is that
right.
Yeah, or maybe the largestisland in the world, something
like that.
Ke (02:27):
That's one of the third largest island in the world.
So it is as sad like.
Marie Berry (02:34):
So yeah, tell us about it.
Ke (02:37):
Three times as big as France .
That can give you a size of thecountry.
We are 28 million of Malacasypeople right now.
It is a huge mix of culturalbackground because the first
settlers came from Indonesia andMalaysia and then came the
Arabic people and the Africanpeople and Chinese people.
(02:59):
Then we were colonized by theDutch, the British and then
France.
This makes a huge mix and ourlanguage is called Malacasy and
it is a melting pot betweenSanskrit from India, somalabic
language, a bit of Swaili Malaylanguage, of course, french
(03:19):
English, like my name, you know,rafi Tusson.
The son at the end means son ofa daughter from the English.
So my name means I am thedaughter of the seventh boy,
because my father of the seventhof siblings they were 11, so he
(03:42):
was the seventh boy, so I amthe daughter of the seventh boy.
That's why you have so muchlong names in Madagascar,
because they tell stories.
My first name, ketakandina,means little princess,
madagascar.
So I keep saying it is a fakedemocracy because, as I
(04:02):
explained beforehand, we haveall the formal framework, legal
and institutional, but it's notworking because politicians
don't work for the common good.
They are there to be served andnot to serve the population and
the citizenship is very weakbecause they are not aware of
(04:23):
their rights, and it is veryhard to trigger a revolution in
Madagascar.
I've been dreaming of this likestarting from high school, and
that's why we set up thatmovement.
We called Wake Up Madagascar in2013, when we were in the
middle of a transition.
Marie Berry (04:40):
Let me back you up then, because let me tell you so
K.
You've been an activist in.
Ke (04:45):
Madagascar for a long time.
Marie Berry (04:47):
Can you tell me a little bit about how you came to
your activism and whatmotivated it?
Ke (04:53):
So, once again, everything started from that book, the
Social Contract, and then Istudied political science at the
university, without the aim ofbecoming a politician myself,
because I hate politicians.
But the aim was to studypolitics in order to have an
(05:14):
understanding of the system andhow to rework it for good so
that it really works for thepeople.
And at the same time, it waspublic law and political science
merged them.
So that's my main major, mybackground, and then I
discovered at some point thatinjustice was everywhere.
(05:37):
I had this experience ofbecoming almost a judge because
it was a dream of my mom,because being a judge in
Madagascar will grant you fameand fortune and power, and,
coming from a poor backgroundraised by our single mom,
because my father died when Iwas seven, it was important for
(05:59):
her to secure me and my brother.
Like you, have good positions,then you'll be safe Becoming a
judge.
Then I resigned very soon afterbecause I discovered that it
was totally crooked bycorruption and that it doesn't
stick with my values, so I haveto leave.
So people thought I was crazy.
So I'm the only ever person whoresigned from that system in
(06:23):
Madagascar.
Until now, I'm the only crazyone.
Marie Berry (06:27):
Well, what was, what was?
What did you like?
What prompted you to resign?
I mean, you said yeah, sosomething happened, a particular
case.
Ke (06:34):
So there was.
I was part of theadministrative jurisdiction,
which means you as a citizens,you you are against the state
for one reason against thegovernment in a case like, and
that particular case is thatthere was an old man deprived
from his pension fund because hewas retired.
(06:59):
So he was reclaiming it, and wehave been always told that in
such situations, in theadministrative cases, you have
to make the state win, becausethe state doesn't have to lose
funds you know we're repayingback anything so you have to
make the state win, and I findit very unfair because it's not
(07:21):
what we are supposed to do as ajudge.
You are here to make what isright and treat every case
related to the law.
So I was very disappointed andI quit just like this, because
it's very important me to me tostick to my values.
I can't do something which goesagainst my thinking, for
(07:42):
whatever reason, if it, even, ifit will make me richer or
whatever, I can't when I can'tattack you.
So yeah, so I've been involvedin very civil society
organizations and also launchedMovements, especially for youth
empowerment, youth and women.
So I won an award in 2012, forinstance, and we launched the
(08:08):
Women and youths League fordemocracy.
That was very ambitious Doingelectoral monitoring and, you
know, teaching politics tograssroots people, really
explaining why it matters, howit works and what you can do
with it.
And then I had this training inBoston in 2016 at the FSI,
(08:29):
where I met you, yeah, and thatwas a real game changer for my
life, because I discovered aboutNon-violent civil resistance
and started from there.
Until now, I've committedmyself to spread the word around
the country.
But we can resist and we out toresist and this is how we can
resist.
(08:49):
So I developed a kind of smallmanual On it and how to create
movements, how to build peoplepower, bleblah, blah, and we
have done a Small movie on it.
So I'm lecturing at theCatholic University, for
instance, and the content isabout severe resistance.
So I'm teaching my students howto do it, because it's about,
(09:12):
you know, triggering thiscollective will and waking up
people.
Like we have so many issues.
We don't have to wait for amiracle because no one is going
to save us from it, from thisdirty thing we're living in.
We're a lost country, as I usedto say, like no one knows about
Madagascar.
(09:33):
When I go at conferences orplaces.
People always say you're thefirst Malagasy person I met.
Where is Madagascar?
It's okay, because everyoneCannot know everything, but I'm
acting like you know, making mycountry known as well, and it's
important that Malagasy peoplereally work for Madagascar.
(09:55):
And this is a very rich country, by the way.
It has lots of minerals, agreat biodiversity, you have the
land, you have the people whohave resources.
But, to give you an example,only 15% of Malagasy people have
access to electricity 15.
So that's why I'm very upset.
(10:17):
You know, this idea of energytransition is good, of course,
but how can we contribute tothis energy transition if we
don't first have access toenergy?
So it creates like a.
You know, there is no coherencein all of this and I want
people to know, to be Aware ofthat.
(10:37):
So later on, it evolved.
In 2018, I turned toanti-corruption because
Transparency Internationalcalled me in Madagascar, the
local chapter, which is a localassociation, but just affiliated
.
We have accreditation from theSecretary of Transparency
International.
They called me saying look, weare looking for an executive
(11:00):
director.
Would you be interested?
I said yeah, why not?
So we got through interviewsand stuff and I didn't hope to
be hired because I was veryvocal.
They they've asked me what doyou know about our organization?
They say I said nothing becauseI don't see you on the streets.
Are supposed to be a fightagainst corruption, but where is
(11:22):
the fight?
Because I know you arereleasing reports and doing this
and that, but for me it's notenough.
So I forgot about it.
But they called me back andthey said that they need relief,
the kind of fresh energy andalso to bring up the fight.
So yeah, that was my motivation, because corruption undermines
(11:45):
everything Should be humanrights, access to social
services, health care anddedication or group by
corruption in Madagascar.
So a lot of people die frompublic hospitals because they
can't afford even basic medicine.
So that was my motivation, if Iam still very fond of democracy
(12:09):
and social justice, but itwould be useless to fight in
those areas as long ascorruption is there.
So I said it's a root cause ofeverything, so let's do
something about it.
So my task is to bring tryingto bring people power into that
(12:30):
anti-corruption framework andmake Madagascar people strive
for more integrity ortransparency, more
accountability in all levels,and I still do believe that
every person can do something.
Yeah.
Marie Berry (12:47):
Wow, I mean, it sounds like such a massive fight
.
In some ways it is so.
Can you describe, like, howdoes corruption show up for
people?
You mentioned people dying in ahospital because they can't
access care.
How does it show up inMadagascar?
People's lives on a daily basis.
Ke (13:03):
So, yeah, going back to this hospital thing most of the time
, when you have your pregnant,of course, and you go to a
public hospital or every kind ofhospital, and then, when you
are about to deliver, the doctorwill tell you oh, you have some
complications, you have to havea surgery instead of giving
(13:27):
birth naturally, because youhave to pay for that.
And they do it to extort somemoney from you.
And lots of cases happen whenthey take the woman and to the
how to say, bloc operatoire, I'mnot sure Operating room, yeah,
or so they bring the woman tothe operating room and start the
(13:50):
operation.
In the middle of operationThey'll come back to the family
saying the process is on the way, but you have to give us the
money now.
What?
Otherwise we'll let her die andthe baby too.
Where can people find money?
You know the average salary inMadagascar.
(14:11):
I would say it's like $50 amonth for ordinary people and
doctors sometimes are asking for$200, for instance.
Where can people find thismoney?
So a lot of people die inhospitals for such cases.
It's horrible.
And the fact is that thosepeople are not keen to report
(14:35):
those cases or go to courts toreport what they lived because
the judicial system itself iscrooked and it's only those who
have money who can win a case.
So even if you have the right,you defend your right.
You can't win a trial inMadagascar without bribing your
(14:57):
lawyer, the judges, the wholesystem.
So it's totally desperate andthat's why I need an uprising of
people saying enough is enough,we deserve better, we need
better.
And it's all in the everydaylife.
Talking about school, forinstance, when you want to
(15:18):
register your kid into somekinds of school, they will ask
for bribe or they only take thekids of powerful people who
can't pay.
So it's everywhere.
And we have the phenomenon ofsex torsion in universities,
mainly sex for grades.
So professors are maleprofessors who ask for sexual
(15:43):
favors from female mostly, butalso some male students in order
to give them grades and to letthem pass other classes.
And we released a study aboutthat within Transparency
International last year and weconfronted, you know, the
professors from universities tothat, like, look, this is what
(16:04):
happened.
And we had an answer from oneof the head of universities
saying yeah, but it's normal.
You know, it's a student whoare teasing us, so you are the
ones to be shocked.
It's also cultural here.
It's OK to do that, and I wasso upset about that.
And so it's everywhere and it'skilling us.
(16:25):
That's how we present it.
Corruption is killing us, so wereally need to uproot it, right
.
Marie Berry (16:33):
Yeah.
Well, how are you building thatpeople power to challenge that
system?
Ke (16:37):
Yeah.
So the first thing we do isthat we created youth clubs,
youth anti-corruption clubs inhigh schools and universities,
and we are empowering them withknowledge.
First because our strategy isto you know, combine research
action, because we need data.
You have to document thephenomenon, to shock people
(16:59):
saying this is a burden ofcorruption, how much it costs us
every year corruption.
Right.
And then we do investigationswith journalists in an order to
also wake up people once again.
And then we build on advocacy,of course, because we also have
to change the framework.
(17:19):
For instance, extortion is notmentioned in the anti-corruption
law in Madagascar, while it isa phenomenon who is ruining our
society.
The youngest victim ofextortion we met is 11 years old
.
Can you believe that?
So, and yeah.
And then we build thosemovements, the small movements.
(17:41):
It has to start from somewhereand our anti-corruption youth
clubs are doing very well andmore and more young people want
to join.
So it gives us hope, likeeverything is not wasted yet.
Older generations, maybe, arealready, you know, lost, but you
(18:03):
young people seem to be, have awill, they are aspiring for
better, because it's not ourMalacasy people, you know, who
can go abroad and and great intoFrance or whatever, because
powerful people do.
They just escape that maze.
But we have to clean up thatmess and make our country a
(18:25):
safer place for all of us.
That's a big goal, that's a bigdream, and we are also working
with businesses, we are workingwith other CEOs and grassroots
and doing this empowerment anddoing joint advocacy together,
and currently we have a campaignbecause we have presidential
(18:46):
elections in November in mycountry and we are campaigning
for clean elections.
You know that in 2013, one ofthe candidates spent 43 million
dollars in his electoralcampaign and it is known to be
more than some of foreignpresident candidates 43 million
(19:09):
dollars just for a campaign inone in the fifth poorest country
in the world.
That is Madagascar.
It's insane.
So, and you don't know wherethis money comes from.
Some of them made a deal withRussia, for instance, so some
Russian people came to thecountry and offering to sponsor
(19:31):
candidates.
It happens also.
It happened in last electionsin 2018.
So it's highly level corruptionand it's also money laundering.
So we are telling people votefor IDs, not for money, because
those politicians, they are justmaking the most of our poverty.
They know that people arehungry on a daily basis, so they
(19:54):
are distributing cash, they aredistributing one kilo of rice.
So are you going to sell yourfuture and the future of your
children for just a cup of rice?
So we are trying to brainwashin a good sense.
You know the voters like wedeserve better.
(20:15):
We've been doing this alreadyfor almost one year now, running
around the country and tellingeveryone, and we still have a
long way to go, becausepoliticians are fighting back.
Of course they feel that we arelabeled as opposition party.
Of course I don't care aboutthat.
And there is also the judicialharassment.
(20:38):
Whistleblowers are not safe.
Myself I'm facing criminalcharges for blowing the whistle
against corruption, for instance.
I mean, it's not about me.
It happens to a lot of peoplein the country and we have to
unlock the civic space.
We have to claim the space.
It's ours.
So people power has to be builtin every you know trunk of our
(21:02):
society Young people, women,scholars because they are also
needed, you know, in documentingthis phenomenon.
And also if there are someclean politicians.
I'm full of doubts regardingthat, but we have to prepare a
new generation of politicianswho can commit to our common
(21:23):
good.
So all of these in the same.
Marie Berry (21:27):
No kidding.
I mean it's a lot, it's a lot,it's a massive, it's a massive
challenge, but I see youbreaking it apart and doing it
in these concrete and clear ways.
Ke (21:37):
And that's what it's going to take.
Marie Berry (21:39):
Right.
What is your, what is your hopefor the?
What is your kind of vision forthe future?
What do you, what, what?
What does Madagascar look likein a hundred years, if you are
to succeed in your work?
Ke (21:50):
Oh, if I have to succeed, it's not only me, because I'm
just a piece of the puzzle.
You know, there are lots ofpeople doing amazing things in
Madagascar and really puttingtheir lives at risk on a daily
basis for making somethingbetter happen.
If we do succeed in thismovement, it won't take a
hundred years.
It will happen in 20 yearsmaybe or sooner, because I think
(22:15):
that everything is possible andthe big change is possible if
we have the will to and if westrategize in a good way for
making it happen.
So I'm just dreaming of acountry, you know, where
everybody can be happy happy inthe sense of being able to enjoy
even your basic rights and loveit.
People are monitored onFacebook.
(22:37):
There was a guy in the streetand the president and he's sued
then passed and he Did a thumpdown.
Marie Berry (22:46):
He was arrested for thumps down, yeah, as in its
motorcade.
Yeah, exactly, oh my gosh.
Ke (22:50):
He was arrested.
So freedom of expression is afundamental right.
Yeah, we can't have it.
Yeah, the the right toinformation act it's been 17
years now that we've beenclaiming for it to be adopted
Doesn't exist.
You know everything.
So I'm just dreaming of acountry where we can enjoy Fully
(23:12):
our rights, when you can buildthe nation together, because for
now, I think that people arejust so Desperate, with a lot of
anger and frustration withinthem.
We are not happy, we are nothaving having a happy life that
we deserve.
So if we could make it possiblehaving these fundamental rights
(23:35):
, our children will have abetter education, including
civic education.
Then we will raise young personand committed politicians to
take care of all of this.
We will clean up the systemfrom corruption.
That would be a paradise onearth, because we all have all
the resources we don't need.
(23:57):
You know if, if Madagascar was atrue democracy and everything
is working the way it should, weshouldn't rely on international
aid, because that's we willauto sufficient, will be auto
sufficient in all ways.
That's a dream also, but now weare constantly, you know, we
(24:19):
rely on an international aidbecause we can't do more than
that.
It's the only solution we haveso.
Even elections are alwaysfunded by the international
community.
Someday, maybe, we will havethe means for finding our own
elections.
You know, it's also aboutself-determination.
(24:39):
It is very important, I wouldlike to, that Malagasy have this
sense of belonging, that we areproud of our country, we are
striving for our country.
Our country is part of thiswhole world as well, because,
yeah, so what are the?
Marie Berry (24:58):
what are the values or commitments that you feel
like are the most kind of coreto your own work and your yeah?
Ke (25:04):
integrity is the first thing , because without integrity,
everything else will collapse.
You have to do the right thing,even if no one watches you.
That's just a principle Uh soyeah, and by doing a good thing,
it's not not not being selfishas well.
(25:24):
You're living in a community.
Your community starts with yourfamily, of course, but it's
your soil, your neighborhood,it's your city and then your
nation and the world.
So Look beyond yourself.
You are a piece of this wholepuzzle.
But if all the pieces gettogether, then the puzzle will
(25:44):
look nice, the picture will bebright, so that's just to see.
So integrity matters, yeah, andalso this sense of just common
good.
Even it's our money,theoretically, which builds up a
country.
You are paying taxes for thosewho can, and we have to follow
(26:06):
where the money goes, of course,but we have to have this sense
of belonging and ownership of,we have and care for the common
good.
I do believe that we are allhere on earth for a purpose.
It's up to us to discover thatpurpose and mission, of course,
but I think I do believe thatit's always for a good purpose.
(26:27):
It's us who get perverted onthe pathway, you know, because
of corruption, because of greed,because of this or that, but,
and then we lose sight of thiscommon good.
But we have to focus back onthat.
So integrity, common good andsocial justice for me they go
together.
Marie Berry (26:48):
Yeah, I agree.
Let's see what advice would yougive other activists, either in
Madagascar or elsewhere in theworld, that are seeing these
problems in their community andseeking to make a change?
Ke (27:00):
So the first thing is not to lose hope.
I know that it is a very hardbattle and at some point we are
just human beings.
And even myself, for some timeI'm like, geez, am I making a
difference or not?
Am I?
I have four kids.
I'm not making a lot of money,so Engagement is not, you know,
(27:26):
rewarding, but it's.
I'm passionate of it.
But at some point I feel likeI'm tired.
Shouldn't I, shouldn't I dosomething else or fly elsewhere,
escape this mess?
But then I feel the other day.
So the one day I feel very low.
When I woke up in the morning Ifeel re-energized, just because
(27:49):
of small things.
Looking at my kids, like justthinking of what kind of country
do we want to live and to buildfor this generation?
That's the motivation, for meat least.
So keep going, find thatmotivation, or new.
I know that it is already withthe new.
But don't give up, because youknow bad things and bad people
(28:12):
we are just.
They are just awaiting us togive up.
But don't give them that chance.
Don't surrender, neversurrender.
And then after that, learn,always learn, because Knowledge
is infinite.
Uh, we have plenty of resources.
We have to remain creative inour fight.
(28:33):
So document yourself, discoverwhat other commitments
organizations around the worldare doing, how they strategize,
and Adjust it to your country.
Don't just do copy and past,because it it doesn't work.
You have to to create your ownflow, your own strategy.
But document yourself.
(28:54):
That's very, very important.
Information and knowledge.
They are power.
You know it.
So sustain that power in youand never forget.
That would be the third advice.
Never forget to engage peoplearound you, because people
Cannot all be part of a movementor of a grassroots association
(29:14):
or a C so whatever, but at theplace you work, at your church,
at your school, wherever in thebus, spread the word about civil
resistance.
That's my advice, because ithas to be to come very naturally
.
It's not a discipline, it's nota area of study or whatever.
You have to leave it on a dailybasis.
(29:36):
So you have to build this fromthe roots.
Marie Berry (29:39):
If you were sitting next to me on a bus and I
didn't know what civilresistance was, how would you
explain it to me?
Ke (29:45):
I would take an example, a very silly example.
So we have those little redfruits in Madagascar lychee and
the season for lychee startsfrom December to maybe May, no
March and each time we have themI'm like tired already.
Each time they appear they aresweet and lovely but you have to
(30:08):
peel them.
You have to peel them andpeople usually eat them on the
bus.
They peel them and throw up.
You know the dust through thewindow, so it makes a huge dirty
crap in the streets afterwards.
So talking about civilresistance would be simple.
You're sitting next to a persondoing that.
(30:30):
Tell that person first hey, youshouldn't do that, because our
streets are getting dirty andour environment will be polluted
.
So you will be responsible ofthat.
The person will argue, ofcourse, but the thing to do in
building people power is talkingto the whole bus.
(30:51):
You will find that people, somepeople, will support you and
say yes, I do agree with you.
It's very dirty and it has animpact on our health or people.
You can bring back the plague.
This is the case.
Marie Berry (31:07):
Is it?
Ke (31:08):
Really so.
It's already a small society inthat bus, and the first thing
to do is to speak out againstwhat is unjust.
Speak out against any injusticeor think it's not which is not
good.
Dare to speak out.
That's the first thing as well,even if you are the only one
(31:31):
among a thousand people there tospeak up.
You don't need a degree forthat, you just need a bit of
courage.
Marie Berry (31:39):
I love that you don't need a degree for that.
You just need a bit of courage.
Ke (31:43):
That's it, yeah because we are all striving for something
good.
I don't know a single personaiming at seeing a lot of
garbage in his streets no, sowhen you see something bad, do
something about it immediately.
Don't wait for others.
Don't say, no, it's a mayor'stask to clean up the streets.
(32:05):
No, you can do something aboutit yourself and change your
mindset and your behavior.
Yeah, that's just it.
So that's for me, a simpleexample of building people power
.
And you can do it everywhere,at every minute, every hour.
I love that.
Marie Berry (32:26):
If you want to learn more about Kay and her
work, check out TransparencyInternational Madagascar or
publish what you pay pwyporg.
My guest today is Dr Ketakandriana Rafitosan, also
known as Kay, who is a Malagasyindependent researcher, human
rights defender and activist.
Kay is a fierce campaigneragainst corruption in Madagascar
and a staunch believer inpeople power.
I first met Kay in 2017, whenshe joined the first ever IGLI
Summer Institute in Colorado.
(00:21):
She arrived after a more than40 hour plane ride, with an
exuberance and energy that madeall of us quickly realize how
powerful she is.
She was also extremely pregnantwith her third child.
Nonetheless, over the pastyears, kay has continued to
impress all of us with her workagainst corruption, and she has
(00:42):
joined up with largerorganizations like Transparency
International to run theiranti-corruption work in the
country.
She also became the nationalcoordinator for Madagascar's
Publish what you Pay, and shecompleted not one, but two PhDs
one in political science and onein development sociology.
Kay's work has put her squarelyin the crosshairs of many
(01:05):
powerful groups whose corruptpractices are threatened by her
work.
In November 2022, kay wasjudicially harassed by a
powerful and politicallyconnected Malagasy conglomerate
of leachy exporters for blowingthe whistle about a potential
case of corruption and moneylaundering and the leachy trade
between Madagascar and theEuropean Union.
(01:25):
Kay and I were reunited in March2023 in Kathmandu, nepal, where
we were both participants in aconvening of more than 80
activists from 44 countries.
Thus, the conversation that youare about to hear happened in
my hotel room at this conference, with a view of the Kathmandu
skyline.
Can you set the stage bytelling us what it is?
(02:15):
You're from Madagascar, Ibelieve.
The fourth largest country inAfrica by land size Is that
right.
Yeah, or maybe the largestisland in the world, something
like that.
Ke (02:27):
That's one of the third largest island in the world.
So it is as sad like.
Marie Berry (02:34):
So yeah, tell us about it.
Ke (02:37):
Three times as big as France .
That can give you a size of thecountry.
We are 28 million of Malacasypeople right now.
It is a huge mix of culturalbackground because the first
settlers came from Indonesia andMalaysia and then came the
Arabic people and the Africanpeople and Chinese people.
(02:59):
Then we were colonized by theDutch, the British and then
France.
This makes a huge mix and ourlanguage is called Malacasy and
it is a melting pot betweenSanskrit from India, somalabic
language, a bit of Swaili Malaylanguage, of course, french
(03:19):
English, like my name, you know,rafi Tusson.
The son at the end means son ofa daughter from the English.
So my name means I am thedaughter of the seventh boy,
because my father of the seventhof siblings they were 11, so he
(03:42):
was the seventh boy, so I amthe daughter of the seventh boy.
That's why you have so muchlong names in Madagascar,
because they tell stories.
My first name, ketakandina,means little princess,
madagascar.
So I keep saying it is a fakedemocracy because, as I
(04:02):
explained beforehand, we haveall the formal framework, legal
and institutional, but it's notworking because politicians
don't work for the common good.
They are there to be served andnot to serve the population and
the citizenship is very weakbecause they are not aware of
(04:23):
their rights, and it is veryhard to trigger a revolution in
Madagascar.
I've been dreaming of this likestarting from high school, and
that's why we set up thatmovement.
We called Wake Up Madagascar in2013, when we were in the
middle of a transition.
Marie Berry (04:40):
Let me back you up then, because let me tell you so
K.
You've been an activist in.
Ke (04:45):
Madagascar for a long time.
Marie Berry (04:47):
Can you tell me a little bit about how you came to
your activism and whatmotivated it?
Ke (04:53):
So, once again, everything started from that book, the
Social Contract, and then Istudied political science at the
university, without the aim ofbecoming a politician myself,
because I hate politicians.
But the aim was to studypolitics in order to have an
(05:14):
understanding of the system andhow to rework it for good so
that it really works for thepeople.
And at the same time, it waspublic law and political science
merged them.
So that's my main major, mybackground, and then I
discovered at some point thatinjustice was everywhere.
(05:37):
I had this experience ofbecoming almost a judge because
it was a dream of my mom,because being a judge in
Madagascar will grant you fameand fortune and power, and,
coming from a poor backgroundraised by our single mom,
because my father died when Iwas seven, it was important for
(05:59):
her to secure me and my brother.
Like you, have good positions,then you'll be safe Becoming a
judge.
Then I resigned very soon afterbecause I discovered that it
was totally crooked bycorruption and that it doesn't
stick with my values, so I haveto leave.
So people thought I was crazy.
So I'm the only ever person whoresigned from that system in
(06:23):
Madagascar.
Until now, I'm the only crazyone.
Marie Berry (06:27):
Well, what was, what was?
What did you like?
What prompted you to resign?
I mean, you said yeah, sosomething happened, a particular
case.
Ke (06:34):
So there was.
I was part of theadministrative jurisdiction,
which means you as a citizens,you you are against the state
for one reason against thegovernment in a case like, and
that particular case is thatthere was an old man deprived
from his pension fund because hewas retired.
(06:59):
So he was reclaiming it, and wehave been always told that in
such situations, in theadministrative cases, you have
to make the state win, becausethe state doesn't have to lose
funds you know we're repayingback anything so you have to
make the state win, and I findit very unfair because it's not
(07:21):
what we are supposed to do as ajudge.
You are here to make what isright and treat every case
related to the law.
So I was very disappointed andI quit just like this, because
it's very important me to me tostick to my values.
I can't do something which goesagainst my thinking, for
(07:42):
whatever reason, if it, even, ifit will make me richer or
whatever, I can't when I can'tattack you.
So yeah, so I've been involvedin very civil society
organizations and also launchedMovements, especially for youth
empowerment, youth and women.
So I won an award in 2012, forinstance, and we launched the
(08:08):
Women and youths League fordemocracy.
That was very ambitious Doingelectoral monitoring and, you
know, teaching politics tograssroots people, really
explaining why it matters, howit works and what you can do
with it.
And then I had this training inBoston in 2016 at the FSI,
(08:29):
where I met you, yeah, and thatwas a real game changer for my
life, because I discovered aboutNon-violent civil resistance
and started from there.
Until now, I've committedmyself to spread the word around
the country.
But we can resist and we out toresist and this is how we can
resist.
(08:49):
So I developed a kind of smallmanual On it and how to create
movements, how to build peoplepower, bleblah, blah, and we
have done a Small movie on it.
So I'm lecturing at theCatholic University, for
instance, and the content isabout severe resistance.
So I'm teaching my students howto do it, because it's about,
(09:12):
you know, triggering thiscollective will and waking up
people.
Like we have so many issues.
We don't have to wait for amiracle because no one is going
to save us from it, from thisdirty thing we're living in.
We're a lost country, as I usedto say, like no one knows about
Madagascar.
(09:33):
When I go at conferences orplaces.
People always say you're thefirst Malagasy person I met.
Where is Madagascar?
It's okay, because everyoneCannot know everything, but I'm
acting like you know, making mycountry known as well, and it's
important that Malagasy peoplereally work for Madagascar.
(09:55):
And this is a very rich country, by the way.
It has lots of minerals, agreat biodiversity, you have the
land, you have the people whohave resources.
But, to give you an example,only 15% of Malagasy people have
access to electricity 15.
So that's why I'm very upset.
(10:17):
You know, this idea of energytransition is good, of course,
but how can we contribute tothis energy transition if we
don't first have access toenergy?
So it creates like a.
You know, there is no coherencein all of this and I want
people to know, to be Aware ofthat.
(10:37):
So later on, it evolved.
In 2018, I turned toanti-corruption because
Transparency Internationalcalled me in Madagascar, the
local chapter, which is a localassociation, but just affiliated
.
We have accreditation from theSecretary of Transparency
International.
They called me saying look, weare looking for an executive
(11:00):
director.
Would you be interested?
I said yeah, why not?
So we got through interviewsand stuff and I didn't hope to
be hired because I was veryvocal.
They they've asked me what doyou know about our organization?
They say I said nothing becauseI don't see you on the streets.
Are supposed to be a fightagainst corruption, but where is
(11:22):
the fight?
Because I know you arereleasing reports and doing this
and that, but for me it's notenough.
So I forgot about it.
But they called me back andthey said that they need relief,
the kind of fresh energy andalso to bring up the fight.
So yeah, that was my motivation, because corruption undermines
(11:45):
everything Should be humanrights, access to social
services, health care anddedication or group by
corruption in Madagascar.
So a lot of people die frompublic hospitals because they
can't afford even basic medicine.
So that was my motivation, if Iam still very fond of democracy
(12:09):
and social justice, but itwould be useless to fight in
those areas as long ascorruption is there.
So I said it's a root cause ofeverything, so let's do
something about it.
So my task is to bring tryingto bring people power into that
(12:30):
anti-corruption framework andmake Madagascar people strive
for more integrity ortransparency, more
accountability in all levels,and I still do believe that
every person can do something.
Yeah.
Marie Berry (12:47):
Wow, I mean, it sounds like such a massive fight
.
In some ways it is so.
Can you describe, like, howdoes corruption show up for
people?
You mentioned people dying in ahospital because they can't
access care.
How does it show up inMadagascar?
People's lives on a daily basis.
Ke (13:03):
So, yeah, going back to this hospital thing most of the time
, when you have your pregnant,of course, and you go to a
public hospital or every kind ofhospital, and then, when you
are about to deliver, the doctorwill tell you oh, you have some
complications, you have to havea surgery instead of giving
(13:27):
birth naturally, because youhave to pay for that.
And they do it to extort somemoney from you.
And lots of cases happen whenthey take the woman and to the
how to say, bloc operatoire, I'mnot sure Operating room, yeah,
or so they bring the woman tothe operating room and start the
(13:50):
operation.
In the middle of operationThey'll come back to the family
saying the process is on the way, but you have to give us the
money now.
What?
Otherwise we'll let her die andthe baby too.
Where can people find money?
You know the average salary inMadagascar.
(14:11):
I would say it's like $50 amonth for ordinary people and
doctors sometimes are asking for$200, for instance.
Where can people find thismoney?
So a lot of people die inhospitals for such cases.
It's horrible.
And the fact is that thosepeople are not keen to report
(14:35):
those cases or go to courts toreport what they lived because
the judicial system itself iscrooked and it's only those who
have money who can win a case.
So even if you have the right,you defend your right.
You can't win a trial inMadagascar without bribing your
(14:57):
lawyer, the judges, the wholesystem.
So it's totally desperate andthat's why I need an uprising of
people saying enough is enough,we deserve better, we need
better.
And it's all in the everydaylife.
Talking about school, forinstance, when you want to
(15:18):
register your kid into somekinds of school, they will ask
for bribe or they only take thekids of powerful people who
can't pay.
So it's everywhere.
And we have the phenomenon ofsex torsion in universities,
mainly sex for grades.
So professors are maleprofessors who ask for sexual
(15:43):
favors from female mostly, butalso some male students in order
to give them grades and to letthem pass other classes.
And we released a study aboutthat within Transparency
International last year and weconfronted, you know, the
professors from universities tothat, like, look, this is what
(16:04):
happened.
And we had an answer from oneof the head of universities
saying yeah, but it's normal.
You know, it's a student whoare teasing us, so you are the
ones to be shocked.
It's also cultural here.
It's OK to do that, and I wasso upset about that.
And so it's everywhere and it'skilling us.
(16:25):
That's how we present it.
Corruption is killing us, so wereally need to uproot it, right
.
Marie Berry (16:33):
Yeah.
Well, how are you building thatpeople power to challenge that
system?
Ke (16:37):
Yeah.
So the first thing we do isthat we created youth clubs,
youth anti-corruption clubs inhigh schools and universities,
and we are empowering them withknowledge.
First because our strategy isto you know, combine research
action, because we need data.
You have to document thephenomenon, to shock people
(16:59):
saying this is a burden ofcorruption, how much it costs us
every year corruption.
Right.
And then we do investigationswith journalists in an order to
also wake up people once again.
And then we build on advocacy,of course, because we also have
to change the framework.
(17:19):
For instance, extortion is notmentioned in the anti-corruption
law in Madagascar, while it isa phenomenon who is ruining our
society.
The youngest victim ofextortion we met is 11 years old
.
Can you believe that?
So, and yeah.
And then we build thosemovements, the small movements.
(17:41):
It has to start from somewhereand our anti-corruption youth
clubs are doing very well andmore and more young people want
to join.
So it gives us hope, likeeverything is not wasted yet.
Older generations, maybe, arealready, you know, lost, but you
(18:03):
young people seem to be, have awill, they are aspiring for
better, because it's not ourMalacasy people, you know, who
can go abroad and and great intoFrance or whatever, because
powerful people do.
They just escape that maze.
But we have to clean up thatmess and make our country a
(18:25):
safer place for all of us.
That's a big goal, that's a bigdream, and we are also working
with businesses, we are workingwith other CEOs and grassroots
and doing this empowerment anddoing joint advocacy together,
and currently we have a campaignbecause we have presidential
(18:46):
elections in November in mycountry and we are campaigning
for clean elections.
You know that in 2013, one ofthe candidates spent 43 million
dollars in his electoralcampaign and it is known to be
more than some of foreignpresident candidates 43 million
(19:09):
dollars just for a campaign inone in the fifth poorest country
in the world.
That is Madagascar.
It's insane.
So, and you don't know wherethis money comes from.
Some of them made a deal withRussia, for instance, so some
Russian people came to thecountry and offering to sponsor
(19:31):
candidates.
It happens also.
It happened in last electionsin 2018.
So it's highly level corruptionand it's also money laundering.
So we are telling people votefor IDs, not for money, because
those politicians, they are justmaking the most of our poverty.
They know that people arehungry on a daily basis, so they
(19:54):
are distributing cash, they aredistributing one kilo of rice.
So are you going to sell yourfuture and the future of your
children for just a cup of rice?
So we are trying to brainwashin a good sense.
You know the voters like wedeserve better.
(20:15):
We've been doing this alreadyfor almost one year now, running
around the country and tellingeveryone, and we still have a
long way to go, becausepoliticians are fighting back.
Of course they feel that we arelabeled as opposition party.
Of course I don't care aboutthat.
And there is also the judicialharassment.
(20:38):
Whistleblowers are not safe.
Myself I'm facing criminalcharges for blowing the whistle
against corruption, for instance.
I mean, it's not about me.
It happens to a lot of peoplein the country and we have to
unlock the civic space.
We have to claim the space.
It's ours.
So people power has to be builtin every you know trunk of our
(21:02):
society Young people, women,scholars because they are also
needed, you know, in documentingthis phenomenon.
And also if there are someclean politicians.
I'm full of doubts regardingthat, but we have to prepare a
new generation of politicianswho can commit to our common
(21:23):
good.
So all of these in the same.
Marie Berry (21:27):
No kidding.
I mean it's a lot, it's a lot,it's a massive, it's a massive
challenge, but I see youbreaking it apart and doing it
in these concrete and clear ways.
Ke (21:37):
And that's what it's going to take.
Marie Berry (21:39):
Right.
What is your, what is your hopefor the?
What is your kind of vision forthe future?
What do you, what, what?
What does Madagascar look likein a hundred years, if you are
to succeed in your work?
Ke (21:50):
Oh, if I have to succeed, it's not only me, because I'm
just a piece of the puzzle.
You know, there are lots ofpeople doing amazing things in
Madagascar and really puttingtheir lives at risk on a daily
basis for making somethingbetter happen.
If we do succeed in thismovement, it won't take a
hundred years.
It will happen in 20 yearsmaybe or sooner, because I think
(22:15):
that everything is possible andthe big change is possible if
we have the will to and if westrategize in a good way for
making it happen.
So I'm just dreaming of acountry, you know, where
everybody can be happy happy inthe sense of being able to enjoy
even your basic rights and loveit.
People are monitored onFacebook.
(22:37):
There was a guy in the streetand the president and he's sued
then passed and he Did a thumpdown.
Marie Berry (22:46):
He was arrested for thumps down, yeah, as in its
motorcade.
Yeah, exactly, oh my gosh.
Ke (22:50):
He was arrested.
So freedom of expression is afundamental right.
Yeah, we can't have it.
Yeah, the the right toinformation act it's been 17
years now that we've beenclaiming for it to be adopted
Doesn't exist.
You know everything.
So I'm just dreaming of acountry where we can enjoy Fully
(23:12):
our rights, when you can buildthe nation together, because for
now, I think that people arejust so Desperate, with a lot of
anger and frustration withinthem.
We are not happy, we are nothaving having a happy life that
we deserve.
So if we could make it possiblehaving these fundamental rights
(23:35):
, our children will have abetter education, including
civic education.
Then we will raise young personand committed politicians to
take care of all of this.
We will clean up the systemfrom corruption.
That would be a paradise onearth, because we all have all
the resources we don't need.
(23:57):
You know if, if Madagascar was atrue democracy and everything
is working the way it should, weshouldn't rely on international
aid, because that's we willauto sufficient, will be auto
sufficient in all ways.
That's a dream also, but now weare constantly, you know, we
(24:19):
rely on an international aidbecause we can't do more than
that.
It's the only solution we haveso.
Even elections are alwaysfunded by the international
community.
Someday, maybe, we will havethe means for finding our own
elections.
You know, it's also aboutself-determination.
(24:39):
It is very important, I wouldlike to, that Malagasy have this
sense of belonging, that we areproud of our country, we are
striving for our country.
Our country is part of thiswhole world as well, because,
yeah, so what are the?
Marie Berry (24:58):
what are the values or commitments that you feel
like are the most kind of coreto your own work and your yeah?
Ke (25:04):
integrity is the first thing , because without integrity,
everything else will collapse.
You have to do the right thing,even if no one watches you.
That's just a principle Uh soyeah, and by doing a good thing,
it's not not not being selfishas well.
(25:24):
You're living in a community.
Your community starts with yourfamily, of course, but it's
your soil, your neighborhood,it's your city and then your
nation and the world.
So Look beyond yourself.
You are a piece of this wholepuzzle.
But if all the pieces gettogether, then the puzzle will
(25:44):
look nice, the picture will bebright, so that's just to see.
So integrity matters, yeah, andalso this sense of just common
good.
Even it's our money,theoretically, which builds up a
country.
You are paying taxes for thosewho can, and we have to follow
(26:06):
where the money goes, of course,but we have to have this sense
of belonging and ownership of,we have and care for the common
good.
I do believe that we are allhere on earth for a purpose.
It's up to us to discover thatpurpose and mission, of course,
but I think I do believe thatit's always for a good purpose.
(26:27):
It's us who get perverted onthe pathway, you know, because
of corruption, because of greed,because of this or that, but,
and then we lose sight of thiscommon good.
But we have to focus back onthat.
So integrity, common good andsocial justice for me they go
together.
Marie Berry (26:48):
Yeah, I agree.
Let's see what advice would yougive other activists, either in
Madagascar or elsewhere in theworld, that are seeing these
problems in their community andseeking to make a change?
Ke (27:00):
So the first thing is not to lose hope.
I know that it is a very hardbattle and at some point we are
just human beings.
And even myself, for some timeI'm like, geez, am I making a
difference or not?
Am I?
I have four kids.
I'm not making a lot of money,so Engagement is not, you know,
(27:26):
rewarding, but it's.
I'm passionate of it.
But at some point I feel likeI'm tired.
Shouldn't I, shouldn't I dosomething else or fly elsewhere,
escape this mess?
But then I feel the other day.
So the one day I feel very low.
When I woke up in the morning Ifeel re-energized, just because
(27:49):
of small things.
Looking at my kids, like justthinking of what kind of country
do we want to live and to buildfor this generation?
That's the motivation, for meat least.
So keep going, find thatmotivation, or new.
I know that it is already withthe new.
But don't give up, because youknow bad things and bad people
(28:12):
we are just.
They are just awaiting us togive up.
But don't give them that chance.
Don't surrender, neversurrender.
And then after that, learn,always learn, because Knowledge
is infinite.
Uh, we have plenty of resources.
We have to remain creative inour fight.
(28:33):
So document yourself, discoverwhat other commitments
organizations around the worldare doing, how they strategize,
and Adjust it to your country.
Don't just do copy and past,because it it doesn't work.
You have to to create your ownflow, your own strategy.
But document yourself.
(28:54):
That's very, very important.
Information and knowledge.
They are power.
You know it.
So sustain that power in youand never forget.
That would be the third advice.
Never forget to engage peoplearound you, because people
Cannot all be part of a movementor of a grassroots association
(29:14):
or a C so whatever, but at theplace you work, at your church,
at your school, wherever in thebus, spread the word about civil
resistance.
That's my advice, because ithas to be to come very naturally
.
It's not a discipline, it's nota area of study or whatever.
You have to leave it on a dailybasis.
(29:36):
So you have to build this fromthe roots.
Marie Berry (29:39):
If you were sitting next to me on a bus and I
didn't know what civilresistance was, how would you
explain it to me?
Ke (29:45):
I would take an example, a very silly example.
So we have those little redfruits in Madagascar lychee and
the season for lychee startsfrom December to maybe May, no
March and each time we have themI'm like tired already.
Each time they appear they aresweet and lovely but you have to
(30:08):
peel them.
You have to peel them andpeople usually eat them on the
bus.
They peel them and throw up.
You know the dust through thewindow, so it makes a huge dirty
crap in the streets afterwards.
So talking about civilresistance would be simple.
You're sitting next to a persondoing that.
(30:30):
Tell that person first hey, youshouldn't do that, because our
streets are getting dirty andour environment will be polluted
.
So you will be responsible ofthat.
The person will argue, ofcourse, but the thing to do in
building people power is talkingto the whole bus.
(30:51):
You will find that people, somepeople, will support you and
say yes, I do agree with you.
It's very dirty and it has animpact on our health or people.
You can bring back the plague.
This is the case.
Marie Berry (31:07):
Is it?
Ke (31:08):
Really so.
It's already a small society inthat bus, and the first thing
to do is to speak out againstwhat is unjust.
Speak out against any injusticeor think it's not which is not
good.
Dare to speak out.
That's the first thing as well,even if you are the only one
(31:31):
among a thousand people there tospeak up.
You don't need a degree forthat, you just need a bit of
courage.
Marie Berry (31:39):
I love that you don't need a degree for that.
You just need a bit of courage.
Ke (31:43):
That's it, yeah because we are all striving for something
good.
I don't know a single personaiming at seeing a lot of
garbage in his streets no, sowhen you see something bad, do
something about it immediately.
Don't wait for others.
Don't say, no, it's a mayor'stask to clean up the streets.
(32:05):
No, you can do something aboutit yourself and change your
mindset and your behavior.
Yeah, that's just it.
So that's for me, a simpleexample of building people power
.
And you can do it everywhere,at every minute, every hour.
I love that.
Marie Berry (32:26):
If you want to learn more about Kay and her
work, check out TransparencyInternational Madagascar or
publish what you pay pwyporg.
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