August 15, 2023 • 47 mins
Prepare for a powerful journey as we sit down with Carolina Barrero, the courageous Cuban human rights and democracy activist. Carolina takes us on an emotionally charged journey through the Cuban protest movement of 2021, revealing the role of art and storytelling in challenging the oppressive regime. As we unravel her gripping personal story of house arrest and defiance, you'll gain an exclusive look into the bravery of artists who dared to expose the corruption and decay of the Cuban government.
Carolina opens up about her experiences as an exile and the profound impact it has had on her understanding of global activism. She brings to light the importance of alliance and art in dismantling autocratic regimes and their attempts to divide movements for change. Her insights on global solidarity and its role in sparking protests are truly inspiring. Join us in this exciting episode as we explore the power of shared activism, art, and the collective fight for a free world.
You can find the full, live event with Carolina here.
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Marie Berry (00:03):
Music playing Welcome to what the World Will
Become, a podcast about thehumans who dedicate their lives
to building a more free and justworld.
My name is Marie Berry.
(00:24):
I'm a feminist researcher andwriter, and I've spent the
better part of the past 20 yearsresearching and thinking about
how women experience war and itsaftermath.
I've done research in placeslike Rwanda, Bosnia, Kenya,
Nepal and Colombia, and I'veinterviewed hundreds of women
whose lives have been shaped byviolence.
Along the way, I have beenrepeatedly struck by two
(00:46):
simultaneous truths the first isthat violence is devastating,
leaving those who survive itwith trauma and grief that can
last for years and evengenerations.
But the second is that, even inthe most bleak and impossible
of situations, there is often agreat beauty, a way that those
who suffer from violence findlove, joy and resilience that
(01:08):
can creatively forge new pathsforward, paths that offer us
profound hope and possibilityfor building a more just and
free world.
Music playing Welcome to thisepisode of what the World Will
Become, which features CarolinaBarrero.
Carolina is a Cuban human rightsand democracy activist
(01:30):
dedicated to bringing about theend of violence and
authoritarianism in her country.
She took part in the protestmovement that challenged Cuba's
regime in 2021 as a member ofthe 27N and Sen Isidro movement.
After that, she was detained,prosecuted and arrested until
she was forced into exile inFebruary 2022.
(01:52):
In summer 2022, Carolina cameto Colorado as part of the IGLI
Summer Institute.
Since, she has been invited asa speaker at events such as the
Oslo Freedom Forum, the HumanRights Watch annual council and
the World Liberty Congress.
From exile, she has continuedher tireless advocacy for
freedom in Cuba and hassupported activists inside the
(02:15):
island nation.
She is also an author and haswritten for magazines and
newspapers such as Artichoke,the Art Newspaper and Hypermedia
Magazine.
I sat down with Carolina inperson in a public forum to
record this episode in Denver,Colorado, in May 2023.
Carolina was in Colorado forseveral weeks, serving as a
(02:39):
practitioner in residence aspart of the IGLI initiative at
the Corbell School at theUniversity of Denver.
You were joined by more than120 people in the audience, and
so what you are about to hear isa live conversation.
I hope you enjoy.
Carolina Barrero (02:56):
Allow me to begin by telling you a personal
story I haven't yet shared inpublic.
During my time in house arrestin Havana, a state security
agent known as Mario came to seeme.
At that time I was constantlymonitored by guards outside my
house 24 hours four policeofficers, a state security agent
(03:20):
and the military forces knownas Boinas Rojas.
All my communications wereinter-been.
They listened and watchedalmost every single one of my
steps.
I was listening now in silenceto Mario and what he came to say
.
He expressed his concerns aboutthe longest house arrest how,
(03:46):
the inconvenience for theneighborhood's peace, the amount
of resources it was taken tothem for keeping me locked.
And then he made a proposal.
He said if you agree to goquiet, I will end this house
arrest now.
I immediately answered.
(04:06):
I said, mario, you can come inthree days, you can come in
three years.
My answer will be the same Micompromiso es con la verdad y
con la justicia, punto.
My commitment is to trust andjustice period.
The police patrol, the housearrest, the justification of all
(04:31):
of the arbitrary procedures isyour problem, not mine.
I have never felt freer.
Under a regime with no respectfor justice, rebellion becomes
the law.
I have thought a lot about thismoment afterwards, especially
about those two words, truth andjustice, and their significance
(04:55):
to the protest movement I tookpart during the year 2021.
The Cuban regime stands as thelongest running power in the
Western hemisphere, with ahistory of 64 years marked by
oppression, assassination,incarcerations and forced exiles
of those who hold differingopinions from the official
(05:17):
narrative.
This totalitarian regime,dominated by a military elite
and the Castro family, hasmaintained an iron grip on power
, allowing only one politicalparty, the Communist Party, to
rule, surpassing the bounds oflaw and justice.
It is a nation subjugated by anelite, where justice is itself
(05:43):
imprisoned, subjected to thewhims and the directive of the
Communist Party.
Yet the most pervasive andenduring aspect of this regime
has been the incessantdissemination of lies, the
narrative of the revolutionwhich, with its captivating tale
(06:06):
of the guerrilla fightersrising to power in the pursuit
of social justice, served as amyth that ensured the
establishment of the Cubanregime in the eyes of
international opinion.
This myth became the toolemployed by the state security's
propaganda machinery tocultivate the acceptance and
(06:28):
normalization of thedictatorship.
However, it is essential torecognize that this narrative is
merely a mirage, a facade thatconceals the harsh reality and
atrocities that lie behind thepolished image presented to
those who dare not to lookbeyond its surface.
(06:50):
If there is a group withinsociety that possesses a deep
understanding of the potency ofimage, the persuasive force of
myths and the art ofstorytelling, it is the artist,
writers, the philosophers, theplaywrights.
(07:11):
They understand the power ofimages, the components of
narratives in stories, andbecause of it, they are more
likely to uncover them, to crackthem and eventually, to
overcome them.
In the spring of 2018, followingthe appointment of Miguel Díaz
(07:32):
Canel as Raúl Castro's successor, a group of artists took a bold
step by utilizing performativeintervention in public spaces.
Significant was the one bay bya young artist, luis Manuel
Otero Alcántara, an arthistorian, janeliz Núñez.
Both in the image behind me,they spread human excrement all
(07:58):
over their bodies in front ofthe Capitolio, which is the seat
of the National Assembly.
The protest half art, halfactivism was all blow to social
media, and it is spread likegunpowder.
Though their artisticexpression, artists aim to
(08:19):
symbolize and expose thecorruption and decay of the
regime.
These acts serve as a powerfulvisual statement, capturing the
attention of both the public andthe authorities by challenging
the status quo and defining thelimitations imposed on creative
(08:40):
expression.
These artists courageously shedlight on the lives of a regime,
sparking though within society.
In retrospect, the events ofthat period signaled the dawn of
a new era wherein citizens cameto realize that the potential
(09:01):
for anti-governmental protestwas not merely an abstract
aspiration or a dream, but atangible reality.
The actions taken by the artistand activists demonstrated that
dissent and opposition to thegovernment had the power to
ignite significant change.
(09:21):
This awakening among thepopulace marked a shift in
collective consciousness, aspeople began to recognize their
own agency and the potentialimpact of their voices and
actions.
From those courageous acts, theMovimiento San Isidro was born
(09:43):
in September 2018, followed bythe emergence of Group 27N two
years later.
The night of November 27, whichbecame the namesake for the
later group, witnessed anunprecedented display of public
protest.
Hundreds of individualsgathered in front of the
(10:05):
Ministry of Culture, voicingtheir hands for an end to
political violence, therecognition of civil and
political rights and thepromotion of pluralism within
society.
This remarkable demonstrationstands as one of the largest
protests ever recorded in frontof a governmental building.
(10:27):
Notably, during thissignificant event, people
utilized their mobile phones toilluminate the darkness of the
night.
They share and upload images,harnessing the power of social
media to disseminate thecontagious feeling of freedom
(10:49):
that ignited a flame for protestto come.
On January 27, 2021, a smallergroup gathered at the Ministry
of Culture for another protest.
Despite its modest size, theimpact of this demonstration
deepened the collectiveawareness.
(11:09):
Within mere 30 minutes of ourarrival, the area was swiftly
surrounded by police and statesecurity forces, effectively
preventing the possibility ofthe largest protest from taking
place.
The tension and sense offorecoming violence was very
tangible, but we decided torespond in a differently manner
(11:35):
In the face of this escalatingsituation.
We chose to read a poem titledDos Patrias by José Martí.
Almost if the poem could be thespell that could cast truth,
peace and reconciliation.
It was our shield against theviolence.
(11:56):
In the poem, you can read thefirst two verses Dos Patrias
Tengo Yo Cuba y la Noche, o Sonuna Las Dos.
Two Homelands I have Cuba andthe Night, or they Are One and
Only One.
The year 2021 witnessed acascade of protests that swept
(12:17):
through the nation.
One after the other.
This protest emerged,eventually culminating in a
transformative citizens uprisingduring the summer.
The initial spark ignited byartists in the spring of 2018
was merely a precursor to themonumental event that unfolded
(12:39):
thereafter.
The citizens themselves emergedas the true protagonist of this
movement, as hundreds ofthousands took to the streets,
united in their call for freedom.
The magnitude and scale ofthese demonstrations were
unprecedented, reflecting thedeep-rooted desire for change
(13:01):
and the collective journey for asociety built on principles of
liberty and justice.
The people, driven by theirunwavering determination,
fearlessly voiced their demands,refusing to be silenced any
longer.
This uprising marked a turningpoint, as the movement
(13:22):
transitioned from an artisticand intellectual endeavor to a
mass mobilization of citizensfrom all walks of life.
It demonstrated the power ofunity and solidarity, as
individuals from diversebackgrounds joined forces,
transcending differences andstanding shoulder to shoulder in
(13:42):
the pursuit of freedom.
The subsequent repressionfollowing the uprising has
resulted in Cuba having thehighest number of political
prisoners in the Americas,exceeding 1066 individuals
according to a recent report byprisoners defenders.
(14:02):
It has also led to the largestexodus in the country's history,
with activists forced intoexile and a pervasive atmosphere
of surveillance and controlover any form of political
dissent.
Merely posting a message onFacebook can lead to being can
(14:24):
lead you to being targeted anddetained in Villa Marista, an
notorious center ofinvestigation infamous for its
use of white torture techniques.
However, despite theserepressive measures, the protest
movement in Cuba continues topersist.
Every day, there remains apossibility for protests to
(14:47):
occur, demonstrating theenduring spirit of the
resistance.
Just 10 days ago, a significantprotest unfolded in Caymanera, a
small town in the far east ofthe country.
The images captured during thisevent depicts a multitude of
people marching towards themunicipal communist government
(15:09):
as they shouted Libertad, vivanlos Derechos Humanos and Viva
Cuba Libre.
This powerful display was awavering demonstration, served
as a poignant reminder that thedesire for freedom and the fight
for human rights continues.
Every day the regime losescredibility.
(15:31):
Every day, the democraticforces gain strength.
Truth and justice will be theguidance for our potential
transition.
As the threats holding theregime together begin to unravel
, the hues of freedom burstforth.
Marie Berry (15:56):
Thank you, carolina .
I'm so moved.
I think you mentioned that thepoem served as a shield to the
work that all the protesterswere doing and that just landed
with me in a way that I thoughtwas incredibly moving.
So thank you for sharing thatand thank you for being here
(16:18):
with us today.
This is a real honor and aprivilege for all of us here in
Denver and at the Corbel School.
You started your story to ustoday by talking about a time
that you were in house arrest,and I know a little bit about
your background as an arthistorian, as someone who's had
(16:38):
a really rich and interestingkind of career in the arts, and
I'm curious if you could tell usa little bit more about what
triggered your activism thatwould then lead to you being in
a context of house arrest.
Carolina Barrero (16:53):
Yeah, thank you for asking that.
Actually, many people ask methat oftenly.
I have many different answersfor that and, as I have deepened
my own reflection on howactually make me turn to
activism, I'm more sure it wasthe way I was, my background,
(17:13):
the way I was raised in myfamily.
I was raised by my grandparentsand they were both from Bayamo.
I think there is someone herefrom Cuba.
Bayamo is in the far east ofthe country and was the place
where independence war started.
So I grew up listening tostories of the war and freedom
(17:34):
and everything that themanbithes, this army that fight
against the Spanish colonialism,did.
I mean seeing stories of howthey burned a whole town,
actually before they allowed theSpaniards to gain the town back
and they lose everything beforebeing submitted again, and
(17:58):
those stories were part of mychildhood.
I was always very critical withthe regime at school but never
did protest in public spaces,which is another step you take
and I did it.
Inspired by the acts ofmovimientos en incidro, of
(18:21):
friends like Luis Manuel OteroAlcántara.
They started putting a step out.
They started going fromgalleries the safe phases of
galleries Well, you are neversafe in a country like Cuba but
fairly safe spaces of galleriesor studios, to go to the streets
and protest and show that theprotest was a possibility for
(18:47):
all of us, and I was very muchinspired by that.
We came from starting together,from discussing all of these
ideas in a moment previously, toall of this around 2009, 2014,.
While we were in college, andsometimes my house became a
(19:08):
place for all of thosediscussions, like a tertulia
kind of place and that was aferment for everything that
happened afterwards and thatmade me also take a step in and
just not just being critical butgoing to the streets and
protesting.
Marie Berry (19:28):
So, as you began to work with activists, you see a
change in some ways in thepolitical environment in Cuba,
especially over the past fewyears, and you really, I think,
emphasize that there's alwaysbeen this tremendous repression,
but there was really anamplification of some of this in
the last few years.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what led, what sort of
(19:51):
work you were doing and whatsort of work other activists
were doing that then ledeventually to that detention?
Carolina Barrero (19:59):
Well, resistance is important.
To begin by saying resistanceto authoritarian regime in Cuba
started as long as the 1st ofJanuary 1959.
This is not new.
We're not doing this for thefirst time.
Actually, it was so hard in the60s that thousands of people we
(20:21):
don't know yet how many weresentenced to death, but on
fucilados, without trial, at thecommand of El Che Guevara and
Fidel Castro, without any accessto justice, just sentenced to
death.
That is a story we're telling.
That is part of the truth weneed to find and seek.
(20:41):
Also, in the 70s, we have theUMAP.
This was like Gulags, basicallyconcentration camps for
everyone that look that his orher appearance look like could
be different from the hombrenuevo, the new man that the
Communist Party was trying to.
(21:02):
And this is in the 70sconcentration camps.
So there is a whole story ofresistance we need to honor,
especially young generations.
But it is also true that thiscomes with cycles of protests.
It comes and goes and at leastthis last cycle of protests
(21:23):
which I referred in my words, Ithink we can trace it.
It started in 2018.
It was a moment right after whatit appeared to be in Cuba an
openness after the Obama visit.
Many of you remember.
So there was a sense thatchange was possible, but then
very suddenly that changed backand Raul Castro's policy was to
(21:50):
actually close the island.
And he appointed because wehaven't had free and fair
elections in Cuba for a verylong time.
1948, was the last time heappointed Raul.
That's why I think it's noteven wise to call him president.
No one voted for him.
In any case you can say anappointed president, and their
(22:12):
policy was to.
Actually, the first lawapproved by him was decree 349,
and it was a decree to limit thefreedom of expression and
creativeness of artists, becauseartists started to become kind
of rebels and that sparked manyof those seminal protests in the
(22:35):
artistic movement that thenspread.
In a country like Cuba, just toread a poem like this in the
street, in the public plaza, infront of the Ministry of Culture
, for them it's a crime andactually it threads them and you
could say but what kind of poemharm right?
(22:56):
Why are they so afraid of agirl reading a poem of 20 people
, maybe reading it out loud?
It's just a poem, and I wouldlike to actually answer what you
said before.
Poetry has the possibility tocast light, the metaphor.
Metaphor has the potential toactually let us see reality in a
(23:22):
new light, in a new form that alinguajiano playing language
cannot.
It changes.
It is actually sometimes a kindof a spell that breaks mirages
or myths, comes with a deepenedtruth that only in the language
of poetry can be said and toface.
(23:45):
That was to face the policemenand in front, to confront that
reality that they try to andthat truth.
They try to remain on close,but we use it actually, as I
said, as a shield, because itwas a moment where all the
street was full with police andmilitary and we knew that at any
(24:09):
moment something that actuallyhappened, they could come and
crack down the protest withviolence.
Actually, in the case of thatprotest, the Ministry of Culture
himself a stupor of thebuilding to the street and gave
punch to a young journalist thatwas actually forecasting the
(24:33):
whole protest.
The Ministry of Culture himselfand then the police.
Can you imagine if a Ministryof you know, a high officer of
the government you know, punchan activist in the middle of the
street, he's still the Ministryof Culture and that tells you
everything about the nature ofthe regime.
Marie Berry (24:55):
Take us to what it felt like at that moment?
What was it for you personally?
Who were the people around you?
What did it feel like everysingle day?
And I'm curious to know whetherthere was some real hope at the
moment that perhaps theprotests could make a change.
(25:16):
Do you feel like there was thathope or did it always feel very
?
Carolina Barrero (25:22):
futile?
No, definitely.
Everything has been worth itEverything.
When you are in a protest likethat, you are not really
thinking too much.
You actually act by instinctand you take decisions based on
how to expose the regime, how tomaintain peace, if that
possible, and also how to endureviolence, because that is
(25:46):
actually the most impactfulthing you can do.
So I think Kuwait is now in aturning point.
People thought that maybe,after the crackdown of the
summer of 2021 protests, theregime would succeed in
(26:07):
suffocating their resistancemovement.
However as I said before, kuwaitis a country in the Americas
with more political prisoners.
It is also the country that hasfaced the largest exodus.
It has been the largest exodusin Cuban history and we have had
quite a few.
This one has been the largestand the control now of the
(26:31):
population, the surveillance, istotal.
However, you know that image.
This is 10 days ago.
Protest is pretty much alive,much more than in Nicaragua or
Venezuela, which is somethingnone of us could have thought
Because we come from 60 years ofauthoritarianism, but it is
(26:51):
pretty much there.
The relations between the exilescommunities and the activists
in Saicuba has also become morehas strengthened.
We actually did a campaign twomonths ago to make people aware
that if they didn't go to votein the ratification protests of
(27:12):
the Communist Party, that wouldbe a gesture of resistance as
well.
We call it empty streets July11th.
We show full streets to expressthe rejection to the regime.
Now we will do empty streets,we will stay home.
And it was like that In Kuwaityou queue for everything.
(27:33):
Because there is no food, thereis no anything.
So every time Cubans are verymuch, they know how to do a good
queue.
But for electoral college forthat day to vote and ratify the
deputies of the NationalCommunist Assembly, no one was
there and it was also a form ofasylum protest and we did that
(27:55):
with the activists inside andwith the ones that are in exile,
and it was a huge success andit was also a proof that there
are more things that unite usthan separate us.
So I think there is a potentialtransition.
I think everything can happenany moment.
(28:15):
No one could imagine on July10th that something like July
11th would happen next dayLiterally not even the people
that went to the street thefirst in San Antonio de los
Baños because the protestsstarted by 20 people going out
and doing a Facebook Live videoand that sparked a chain
reaction all over the islandthat led to hundreds of
(28:39):
thousands of people in thestreet.
No one, not even them, couldimagine that that would happen.
No one could imagine that inKaimanera.
This is the closest town to theLa Baza Naval de Guantanamo,
the United States base in Cuba,so it is very militarized, it's
(29:00):
under great surveillance.
The protest had nothing to dowith the United States' military
base.
No one was saying he wanted tocross, no, it was about freedom.
But this was the last town youknow.
Any of us would imagine thatsomething like this would happen
.
And it was hundreds of peopleand they shouted Libertad, Vivan
(29:20):
los Derechos Humanos, which Ithink is pretty straightforward.
They were not just saying weare hungry, leave the embargo.
No, they were saying freedom,Vivan los Derechos Humanos and,
yeah, and abajo la dictadura.
So that's pretty muchstraightforward for a protest.
So no one gets confused aboutthe real motives of it.
Marie Berry (29:42):
Absolutely.
I think that's it's verycompelling.
I know if I can share witheveryone that you were forced
into exile and for the last yearyou've lived outside of Cuba.
Last year and several monthsYou've lived outside of Cuba.
Can you take us through whatthat has been like for you and
(30:03):
what it's been like to begin todo this work, not as somebody
living within the country on theisland, but actually as
somebody abroad, as somebodytrying to think strategically
and creatively about how we doadvance freedom in Cuba in the
long run?
Carolina Barrero (30:21):
I will start by explaining how I was forced
into exile, because maybe youare thinking, oh, did they put a
gun in my head?
Did they just took me to theplane by force?
Well, sort of.
They didn't put a gun and theydidn't put rocks in me and put
me on a plane, but theythreatened me with other people,
(30:44):
especially with mothers ofpolitical prisoners that were
protesting with me.
I organized with them a protestin front of one of the courts
where the trials of July 11thwere happening.
Actually, that day they werejudging 33 people.
Nine of them were minors of ageat that moment and I was with
(31:08):
their mothers protesting outside.
They stopped the protests withviolence.
They took all of us to prison.
I was taken to a differentprison and this tape police
agent came to see me and I wasin prison.
I was not in my house arrest.
I was in Calaboso and he saidCarolina, you have 48 hours to
(31:34):
leave the country.
If you don't go, we willprosecute 12 of the mothers you
will protest.
And with he gave me a list forpublic disorder, as if public
disorder can be, you know asit's that, you know the love of
a mother can be called publicdisorder.
It is for public disorder forthem.
(31:57):
Apparently, your friend andactivist Daniela Rojo will be
will wait for trial in jailbecause she has already an
accusation for her participationin July 11th protest.
Your friend, michael Castillo,who is one of the singers and
composers of the Son Patre Vidamaybe some of you have heard
(32:20):
will not receive medicalattention in prison and his
request for a humanitarian visawill not be attended.
If you go, we are not saying wewill give it to him, but he
will not be attended, definitelyhe will not receive medical.
And then they continue.
Your best friend, which is ateacher actually at a university
(32:41):
like this one, we will spellher from university.
She will not be ever for her,she will not be not be possible
to teach anymore inside Cuba.
So that is not a decision tomake.
When you carry about yourself,your own responsibility is fine.
You can choose whatever youwant, but when other people and
(33:04):
the safety and the security ofthose people you know it's, you
don't have a choice.
So it was not a gun, but sortof.
So I've been since then in inExcel I.
I am in Madrid, which is aplace I know it's not the.
I went to Madrid to study someyears ago.
Actually, I hold a Spanishpassport, so it hasn't been as
(33:27):
traumatic as it is for otherpeople.
But of course, the place I wantto be is inside Cuba.
However, there is so much to doin Excel.
It's just another narrative ofthe Cuban regime to make you
feel that if you go to Excelyou're out of the game.
You cannot do anything else.
Actually, if you know thehistory of Cuba and many other
(33:50):
countries, many things startedin Excel In the case of Cuba.
For example, the revolutionitself, because Fidel Castro
came in a yacht after beingexiled so.
Or the the Independence War.
José Martí actually the authorof the poem I was reading spent
most of his life in Excel and heprepared the war there.
(34:13):
He founded the PartidoRevolucionario abroad and all
the the war of 1995 that endedthe colonialism in.
Cuba was prepared from abroad,and now I think activists are
beginning to understand thatinside and outside Cuba and the
(34:34):
strategies they can do together.
To be here talking to you toamplify the message is part of
our fight too, so that I havetried to use this month to
contribute and to amplify thevoices of the ones inside that
cannot cannot be here with ustoday.
Marie Berry (34:52):
2019, people have said, was the year on record
with the most protests in themost places across the globe.
More people participated inprotest movements in 2019, by
some counts than at any othertime in modern history or
recorded history.
In some ways, I think thisreflects a growing intolerance
(35:16):
and recognition with the lack offreedoms that so many people
live with in their lives today.
I'm wondering for youpersonally, carolina how has
working in community withactivists from other parts of
the globe, from outside of Cuba,meant?
What does that meant for yourown work and what have you
(35:37):
learned from these otherstruggles that people have been
fighting in different parts ofthe globe?
Carolina Barrero (35:44):
I have learned , basically, that we all are
facing the same challenges.
It's been amazing to meactivist woman from Iran, for
example, masiya Linajad, thatactually lives here in the.
States, great activist, andlistening to her saying oh, we
have so much problem withopposition unity.
(36:06):
What's going on, Masiya?
And she's telling me exactlythe same arguments that we
Cubans have been facing for 60years.
And then you talk to aVenezuelan activist, and it is
the same.
A Nicaraguan activist, and itis the same.
When I talk to Cuban activistsabout this, we usually say, oh,
(36:27):
it's because we are Cubans, andthen it's because we are Latin
Americans and it's because wedon't agree on anything.
We are no material.
We have these problems.
But then is Iran, and you talkto Russian activists, and it is
worse, and China activists, it'sall over the world.
And then you start tounderstand there might be some
(36:53):
other things.
Obviously, possibly, and yes,there are many problems of
solidarity, maybe not materialenough movements, but also there
is an element of design that isintroduced there by the regimes
(37:13):
themselves, Because they havelearned how to create distrust,
Because it's the same patternseverywhere.
And by sharing this experiencewith activists, you start
thinking globally Also.
We live in a different worldnow than the 20th century.
We live in a world of allianceof autocrats.
(37:34):
I mean, you cannot just if youtalk about Putin.
You have to understand that theallies of Putin in Latin
America it are Raul Castro,Maduro and Ortega.
Lavrov, which is the foreignminister of Russia, was visiting
these three countries a monthago.
So it's not just that.
(37:56):
Oh yes, they are autocratic.
No, they are autocratic regimesworking together.
It's an alliance, a network ofautocrats.
So we activists have come torealize that if they work
together, so must we.
If they strategize together, ifthey share military information
, surveillance information, wealso must share strategies on
(38:19):
how to bring them down.
And it is better if we canthink also regionally and
globally.
We are not as much alone.
Marie Berry (38:29):
There is a lot of strength and muscle when you
create these kinds of alliance,and that is part of what I have
learned this year as well, Ithink that's beautiful, that if
the autocrats are workingtogether and they certainly are
that those of us on the side offreedom and justice have to be
doubling down and workingtogether and finding ways also
(38:52):
to overcome the fact that sooften the fracturing of these
movements for change happenswithin the movements, but it's
caused so often by these regimesthrough misinformation, through
these campaigns sowing theseeds of distrust, these ways in
which it's so easy to kind ofcause a movement to fracture and
(39:15):
to then fizzle.
I want to know where art fitsinto the solution here.
In your experience, it seems tome that there is something
profoundly powerful andsometimes very universal about
the experience of being able tosee poetry, to be able to see
art, to be able to create incommunity with other people.
(39:36):
Where do you see the arts andartists making a meaningful
impact in trying to challengethose autocratic tendencies and
networks?
Carolina Barrero (39:48):
They do, and that is why outgrads fear art is
so much, why they repress them,but they are only part of it
the citizens and the voice ofthe citizens, that is what needs
to be heard, and artists arepart of that process and part of
(40:08):
that bigger picture.
I think the most importantthing that artists do and, as I
said, writers, playwriters, evenphilosophers is to understand
the narratives and myths thatall of these regimes they have,
because what actually sustain aregime, even beyond military
(40:33):
forces, state security, is thepower of the story that holds
them, which is made of lies,which is a mirage, which is
something that distracts theaudience from the true
violations of human rightshappening behind.
And what artists can do is thatthey can create cracks on those
(40:57):
mirage, because they understandthe power of a storytelling,
the narratives behind it, andcan actually propose artifacts,
art that can actually unravelthat spell, and I think that's
why they are so dangerous andfear by dictators.
Marie Berry (41:19):
I think that's beautifully put.
I want to ask where do we gonext and, specifically in terms
of the context in Cuba, what isthe next step for the movement
that opposes the regime?
What is your role and perhaps,what can those of us in the
audience that are interested inknowing more, learning more, do
(41:40):
to be a part of that next step.
Carolina Barrero (41:42):
It is a very diverse movement.
I don't have not the first, notthe last voice about it, but
one thing we all share is weneed to maintain pressure, we
need to establish more links,more solidarity, we need to
strategize together.
We need to expose more theregime.
(42:05):
This is not an opinion, it is afact.
The Cuban regime has never beenas weak as it is right now, for
many reasons.
One of them, of course, is theprotest movement, which is still
very much alive despite therepression.
The other one is that thecredibility of the Dias Canel
(42:28):
appointed government and RaulCastro's regime is very fragile
is very difficult to sustain anargument that defends them,
especially in the light ofeverything that happened after
July 11.
They have no credibility infront of international opinion
and no credibility inside Cuba.
(42:50):
After the ratification process,the elections that happened on
March 26, almost no othercountry congratulated Dias Canel
as appointed president, except,I think, bolivia, venezuela, of
course, the usual suspects, butnot even among them.
(43:10):
He received too many, and Ithink it was the first time that
something like that happened,and what that means is lack of
recognition by internationalcommunity.
They are pretty much alone,only with Russia and Venezuela,
and that's good news.
It is good news for Cubanpeople because, in the path for
(43:32):
freedom, to expose autocrats andnot to normalize a dictatorship
is very helpful, especially forthe democratic forces.
So for us it's to keep pushingas much as we can.
Solidarity is also veryimportant.
If a group do and I willexplain it if a group in Cuba
(43:55):
does an action, the rest shouldsupport.
It doesn't matter if there aredifference about I don't know
whatever.
That doesn't matter.
We are all fighting for freedom, so we should stand for each
other's safety and support.
This is very important.
That's why, in Poland,solidaridad was a name given by
(44:18):
Waleza to the movement ofworkers and dos sindicatos, and
it has actually been.
It has played a key role in allof the protests.
All of the protests that I show, and more, because these were
just examples were sparked bysolidarity, so that is also part
of the solution.
Marie Berry (44:38):
I think that that is at the core of what we've
been trying to build at theInclusive Global Leadership
Initiative here at the CorbelSchool.
It's a real how do we help tocreate a container for the
deepening of solidarity betweenactivists from different
contexts that may, at thesurface level, think the work
that they're doing is different,but actually we spend a little
(45:02):
time together and we realizethat we're all fighting the same
battles different stakes,different contexts and
oftentimes different materialcircumstances but the underlying
root systems that are harmingso many people in the world
today are shared.
Music playing Welcome to what the World Will
Become, a podcast about thehumans who dedicate their lives
to building a more free and justworld.
My name is Marie Berry.
(00:24):
I'm a feminist researcher andwriter, and I've spent the
better part of the past 20 yearsresearching and thinking about
how women experience war and itsaftermath.
I've done research in placeslike Rwanda, Bosnia, Kenya,
Nepal and Colombia, and I'veinterviewed hundreds of women
whose lives have been shaped byviolence.
Along the way, I have beenrepeatedly struck by two
(00:46):
simultaneous truths the first isthat violence is devastating,
leaving those who survive itwith trauma and grief that can
last for years and evengenerations.
But the second is that, even inthe most bleak and impossible
of situations, there is often agreat beauty, a way that those
who suffer from violence findlove, joy and resilience that
(01:08):
can creatively forge new pathsforward, paths that offer us
profound hope and possibilityfor building a more just and
free world.
Music playing Welcome to thisepisode of what the World Will
Become, which features CarolinaBarrero.
Carolina is a Cuban human rightsand democracy activist
(01:30):
dedicated to bringing about theend of violence and
authoritarianism in her country.
She took part in the protestmovement that challenged Cuba's
regime in 2021 as a member ofthe 27N and Sen Isidro movement.
After that, she was detained,prosecuted and arrested until
she was forced into exile inFebruary 2022.
(01:52):
In summer 2022, Carolina cameto Colorado as part of the IGLI
Summer Institute.
Since, she has been invited asa speaker at events such as the
Oslo Freedom Forum, the HumanRights Watch annual council and
the World Liberty Congress.
From exile, she has continuedher tireless advocacy for
freedom in Cuba and hassupported activists inside the
(02:15):
island nation.
She is also an author and haswritten for magazines and
newspapers such as Artichoke,the Art Newspaper and Hypermedia
Magazine.
I sat down with Carolina inperson in a public forum to
record this episode in Denver,Colorado, in May 2023.
Carolina was in Colorado forseveral weeks, serving as a
(02:39):
practitioner in residence aspart of the IGLI initiative at
the Corbell School at theUniversity of Denver.
You were joined by more than120 people in the audience, and
so what you are about to hear isa live conversation.
I hope you enjoy.
Carolina Barrero (02:56):
Allow me to begin by telling you a personal
story I haven't yet shared inpublic.
During my time in house arrestin Havana, a state security
agent known as Mario came to seeme.
At that time I was constantlymonitored by guards outside my
house 24 hours four policeofficers, a state security agent
(03:20):
and the military forces knownas Boinas Rojas.
All my communications wereinter-been.
They listened and watchedalmost every single one of my
steps.
I was listening now in silenceto Mario and what he came to say
.
He expressed his concerns aboutthe longest house arrest how,
(03:46):
the inconvenience for theneighborhood's peace, the amount
of resources it was taken tothem for keeping me locked.
And then he made a proposal.
He said if you agree to goquiet, I will end this house
arrest now.
I immediately answered.
(04:06):
I said, mario, you can come inthree days, you can come in
three years.
My answer will be the same Micompromiso es con la verdad y
con la justicia, punto.
My commitment is to trust andjustice period.
The police patrol, the housearrest, the justification of all
(04:31):
of the arbitrary procedures isyour problem, not mine.
I have never felt freer.
Under a regime with no respectfor justice, rebellion becomes
the law.
I have thought a lot about thismoment afterwards, especially
about those two words, truth andjustice, and their significance
(04:55):
to the protest movement I tookpart during the year 2021.
The Cuban regime stands as thelongest running power in the
Western hemisphere, with ahistory of 64 years marked by
oppression, assassination,incarcerations and forced exiles
of those who hold differingopinions from the official
(05:17):
narrative.
This totalitarian regime,dominated by a military elite
and the Castro family, hasmaintained an iron grip on power
, allowing only one politicalparty, the Communist Party, to
rule, surpassing the bounds oflaw and justice.
It is a nation subjugated by anelite, where justice is itself
(05:43):
imprisoned, subjected to thewhims and the directive of the
Communist Party.
Yet the most pervasive andenduring aspect of this regime
has been the incessantdissemination of lies, the
narrative of the revolutionwhich, with its captivating tale
(06:06):
of the guerrilla fightersrising to power in the pursuit
of social justice, served as amyth that ensured the
establishment of the Cubanregime in the eyes of
international opinion.
This myth became the toolemployed by the state security's
propaganda machinery tocultivate the acceptance and
(06:28):
normalization of thedictatorship.
However, it is essential torecognize that this narrative is
merely a mirage, a facade thatconceals the harsh reality and
atrocities that lie behind thepolished image presented to
those who dare not to lookbeyond its surface.
(06:50):
If there is a group withinsociety that possesses a deep
understanding of the potency ofimage, the persuasive force of
myths and the art ofstorytelling, it is the artist,
writers, the philosophers, theplaywrights.
(07:11):
They understand the power ofimages, the components of
narratives in stories, andbecause of it, they are more
likely to uncover them, to crackthem and eventually, to
overcome them.
In the spring of 2018, followingthe appointment of Miguel Díaz
(07:32):
Canel as Raúl Castro's successor, a group of artists took a bold
step by utilizing performativeintervention in public spaces.
Significant was the one bay bya young artist, luis Manuel
Otero Alcántara, an arthistorian, janeliz Núñez.
Both in the image behind me,they spread human excrement all
(07:58):
over their bodies in front ofthe Capitolio, which is the seat
of the National Assembly.
The protest half art, halfactivism was all blow to social
media, and it is spread likegunpowder.
Though their artisticexpression, artists aim to
(08:19):
symbolize and expose thecorruption and decay of the
regime.
These acts serve as a powerfulvisual statement, capturing the
attention of both the public andthe authorities by challenging
the status quo and defining thelimitations imposed on creative
(08:40):
expression.
These artists courageously shedlight on the lives of a regime,
sparking though within society.
In retrospect, the events ofthat period signaled the dawn of
a new era wherein citizens cameto realize that the potential
(09:01):
for anti-governmental protestwas not merely an abstract
aspiration or a dream, but atangible reality.
The actions taken by the artistand activists demonstrated that
dissent and opposition to thegovernment had the power to
ignite significant change.
(09:21):
This awakening among thepopulace marked a shift in
collective consciousness, aspeople began to recognize their
own agency and the potentialimpact of their voices and
actions.
From those courageous acts, theMovimiento San Isidro was born
(09:43):
in September 2018, followed bythe emergence of Group 27N two
years later.
The night of November 27, whichbecame the namesake for the
later group, witnessed anunprecedented display of public
protest.
Hundreds of individualsgathered in front of the
(10:05):
Ministry of Culture, voicingtheir hands for an end to
political violence, therecognition of civil and
political rights and thepromotion of pluralism within
society.
This remarkable demonstrationstands as one of the largest
protests ever recorded in frontof a governmental building.
(10:27):
Notably, during thissignificant event, people
utilized their mobile phones toilluminate the darkness of the
night.
They share and upload images,harnessing the power of social
media to disseminate thecontagious feeling of freedom
(10:49):
that ignited a flame for protestto come.
On January 27, 2021, a smallergroup gathered at the Ministry
of Culture for another protest.
Despite its modest size, theimpact of this demonstration
deepened the collectiveawareness.
(11:09):
Within mere 30 minutes of ourarrival, the area was swiftly
surrounded by police and statesecurity forces, effectively
preventing the possibility ofthe largest protest from taking
place.
The tension and sense offorecoming violence was very
tangible, but we decided torespond in a differently manner
(11:35):
In the face of this escalatingsituation.
We chose to read a poem titledDos Patrias by José Martí.
Almost if the poem could be thespell that could cast truth,
peace and reconciliation.
It was our shield against theviolence.
(11:56):
In the poem, you can read thefirst two verses Dos Patrias
Tengo Yo Cuba y la Noche, o Sonuna Las Dos.
Two Homelands I have Cuba andthe Night, or they Are One and
Only One.
The year 2021 witnessed acascade of protests that swept
(12:17):
through the nation.
One after the other.
This protest emerged,eventually culminating in a
transformative citizens uprisingduring the summer.
The initial spark ignited byartists in the spring of 2018
was merely a precursor to themonumental event that unfolded
(12:39):
thereafter.
The citizens themselves emergedas the true protagonist of this
movement, as hundreds ofthousands took to the streets,
united in their call for freedom.
The magnitude and scale ofthese demonstrations were
unprecedented, reflecting thedeep-rooted desire for change
(13:01):
and the collective journey for asociety built on principles of
liberty and justice.
The people, driven by theirunwavering determination,
fearlessly voiced their demands,refusing to be silenced any
longer.
This uprising marked a turningpoint, as the movement
(13:22):
transitioned from an artisticand intellectual endeavor to a
mass mobilization of citizensfrom all walks of life.
It demonstrated the power ofunity and solidarity, as
individuals from diversebackgrounds joined forces,
transcending differences andstanding shoulder to shoulder in
(13:42):
the pursuit of freedom.
The subsequent repressionfollowing the uprising has
resulted in Cuba having thehighest number of political
prisoners in the Americas,exceeding 1066 individuals
according to a recent report byprisoners defenders.
(14:02):
It has also led to the largestexodus in the country's history,
with activists forced intoexile and a pervasive atmosphere
of surveillance and controlover any form of political
dissent.
Merely posting a message onFacebook can lead to being can
(14:24):
lead you to being targeted anddetained in Villa Marista, an
notorious center ofinvestigation infamous for its
use of white torture techniques.
However, despite theserepressive measures, the protest
movement in Cuba continues topersist.
Every day, there remains apossibility for protests to
(14:47):
occur, demonstrating theenduring spirit of the
resistance.
Just 10 days ago, a significantprotest unfolded in Caymanera, a
small town in the far east ofthe country.
The images captured during thisevent depicts a multitude of
people marching towards themunicipal communist government
(15:09):
as they shouted Libertad, vivanlos Derechos Humanos and Viva
Cuba Libre.
This powerful display was awavering demonstration, served
as a poignant reminder that thedesire for freedom and the fight
for human rights continues.
Every day the regime losescredibility.
(15:31):
Every day, the democraticforces gain strength.
Truth and justice will be theguidance for our potential
transition.
As the threats holding theregime together begin to unravel
, the hues of freedom burstforth.
Marie Berry (15:56):
Thank you, carolina .
I'm so moved.
I think you mentioned that thepoem served as a shield to the
work that all the protesterswere doing and that just landed
with me in a way that I thoughtwas incredibly moving.
So thank you for sharing thatand thank you for being here
(16:18):
with us today.
This is a real honor and aprivilege for all of us here in
Denver and at the Corbel School.
You started your story to ustoday by talking about a time
that you were in house arrest,and I know a little bit about
your background as an arthistorian, as someone who's had
(16:38):
a really rich and interestingkind of career in the arts, and
I'm curious if you could tell usa little bit more about what
triggered your activism thatwould then lead to you being in
a context of house arrest.
Carolina Barrero (16:53):
Yeah, thank you for asking that.
Actually, many people ask methat oftenly.
I have many different answersfor that and, as I have deepened
my own reflection on howactually make me turn to
activism, I'm more sure it wasthe way I was, my background,
(17:13):
the way I was raised in myfamily.
I was raised by my grandparentsand they were both from Bayamo.
I think there is someone herefrom Cuba.
Bayamo is in the far east ofthe country and was the place
where independence war started.
So I grew up listening tostories of the war and freedom
(17:34):
and everything that themanbithes, this army that fight
against the Spanish colonialism,did.
I mean seeing stories of howthey burned a whole town,
actually before they allowed theSpaniards to gain the town back
and they lose everything beforebeing submitted again, and
(17:58):
those stories were part of mychildhood.
I was always very critical withthe regime at school but never
did protest in public spaces,which is another step you take
and I did it.
Inspired by the acts ofmovimientos en incidro, of
(18:21):
friends like Luis Manuel OteroAlcántara.
They started putting a step out.
They started going fromgalleries the safe phases of
galleries Well, you are neversafe in a country like Cuba but
fairly safe spaces of galleriesor studios, to go to the streets
and protest and show that theprotest was a possibility for
(18:47):
all of us, and I was very muchinspired by that.
We came from starting together,from discussing all of these
ideas in a moment previously, toall of this around 2009, 2014,.
While we were in college, andsometimes my house became a
(19:08):
place for all of thosediscussions, like a tertulia
kind of place and that was aferment for everything that
happened afterwards and thatmade me also take a step in and
just not just being critical butgoing to the streets and
protesting.
Marie Berry (19:28):
So, as you began to work with activists, you see a
change in some ways in thepolitical environment in Cuba,
especially over the past fewyears, and you really, I think,
emphasize that there's alwaysbeen this tremendous repression,
but there was really anamplification of some of this in
the last few years.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what led, what sort of
(19:51):
work you were doing and whatsort of work other activists
were doing that then ledeventually to that detention?
Carolina Barrero (19:59):
Well, resistance is important.
To begin by saying resistanceto authoritarian regime in Cuba
started as long as the 1st ofJanuary 1959.
This is not new.
We're not doing this for thefirst time.
Actually, it was so hard in the60s that thousands of people we
(20:21):
don't know yet how many weresentenced to death, but on
fucilados, without trial, at thecommand of El Che Guevara and
Fidel Castro, without any accessto justice, just sentenced to
death.
That is a story we're telling.
That is part of the truth weneed to find and seek.
(20:41):
Also, in the 70s, we have theUMAP.
This was like Gulags, basicallyconcentration camps for
everyone that look that his orher appearance look like could
be different from the hombrenuevo, the new man that the
Communist Party was trying to.
(21:02):
And this is in the 70sconcentration camps.
So there is a whole story ofresistance we need to honor,
especially young generations.
But it is also true that thiscomes with cycles of protests.
It comes and goes and at leastthis last cycle of protests
(21:23):
which I referred in my words, Ithink we can trace it.
It started in 2018.
It was a moment right after whatit appeared to be in Cuba an
openness after the Obama visit.
Many of you remember.
So there was a sense thatchange was possible, but then
very suddenly that changed backand Raul Castro's policy was to
(21:50):
actually close the island.
And he appointed because wehaven't had free and fair
elections in Cuba for a verylong time.
1948, was the last time heappointed Raul.
That's why I think it's noteven wise to call him president.
No one voted for him.
In any case you can say anappointed president, and their
(22:12):
policy was to.
Actually, the first lawapproved by him was decree 349,
and it was a decree to limit thefreedom of expression and
creativeness of artists, becauseartists started to become kind
of rebels and that sparked manyof those seminal protests in the
(22:35):
artistic movement that thenspread.
In a country like Cuba, just toread a poem like this in the
street, in the public plaza, infront of the Ministry of Culture
, for them it's a crime andactually it threads them and you
could say but what kind of poemharm right?
(22:56):
Why are they so afraid of agirl reading a poem of 20 people
, maybe reading it out loud?
It's just a poem, and I wouldlike to actually answer what you
said before.
Poetry has the possibility tocast light, the metaphor.
Metaphor has the potential toactually let us see reality in a
(23:22):
new light, in a new form that alinguajiano playing language
cannot.
It changes.
It is actually sometimes a kindof a spell that breaks mirages
or myths, comes with a deepenedtruth that only in the language
of poetry can be said and toface.
(23:45):
That was to face the policemenand in front, to confront that
reality that they try to andthat truth.
They try to remain on close,but we use it actually, as I
said, as a shield, because itwas a moment where all the
street was full with police andmilitary and we knew that at any
(24:09):
moment something that actuallyhappened, they could come and
crack down the protest withviolence.
Actually, in the case of thatprotest, the Ministry of Culture
himself a stupor of thebuilding to the street and gave
punch to a young journalist thatwas actually forecasting the
(24:33):
whole protest.
The Ministry of Culture himselfand then the police.
Can you imagine if a Ministryof you know, a high officer of
the government you know, punchan activist in the middle of the
street, he's still the Ministryof Culture and that tells you
everything about the nature ofthe regime.
Marie Berry (24:55):
Take us to what it felt like at that moment?
What was it for you personally?
Who were the people around you?
What did it feel like everysingle day?
And I'm curious to know whetherthere was some real hope at the
moment that perhaps theprotests could make a change.
(25:16):
Do you feel like there was thathope or did it always feel very
?
Carolina Barrero (25:22):
futile?
No, definitely.
Everything has been worth itEverything.
When you are in a protest likethat, you are not really
thinking too much.
You actually act by instinctand you take decisions based on
how to expose the regime, how tomaintain peace, if that
possible, and also how to endureviolence, because that is
(25:46):
actually the most impactfulthing you can do.
So I think Kuwait is now in aturning point.
People thought that maybe,after the crackdown of the
summer of 2021 protests, theregime would succeed in
(26:07):
suffocating their resistancemovement.
However as I said before, kuwaitis a country in the Americas
with more political prisoners.
It is also the country that hasfaced the largest exodus.
It has been the largest exodusin Cuban history and we have had
quite a few.
This one has been the largestand the control now of the
(26:31):
population, the surveillance, istotal.
However, you know that image.
This is 10 days ago.
Protest is pretty much alive,much more than in Nicaragua or
Venezuela, which is somethingnone of us could have thought
Because we come from 60 years ofauthoritarianism, but it is
(26:51):
pretty much there.
The relations between the exilescommunities and the activists
in Saicuba has also become morehas strengthened.
We actually did a campaign twomonths ago to make people aware
that if they didn't go to votein the ratification protests of
(27:12):
the Communist Party, that wouldbe a gesture of resistance as
well.
We call it empty streets July11th.
We show full streets to expressthe rejection to the regime.
Now we will do empty streets,we will stay home.
And it was like that In Kuwaityou queue for everything.
(27:33):
Because there is no food, thereis no anything.
So every time Cubans are verymuch, they know how to do a good
queue.
But for electoral college forthat day to vote and ratify the
deputies of the NationalCommunist Assembly, no one was
there and it was also a form ofasylum protest and we did that
(27:55):
with the activists inside andwith the ones that are in exile,
and it was a huge success andit was also a proof that there
are more things that unite usthan separate us.
So I think there is a potentialtransition.
I think everything can happenany moment.
(28:15):
No one could imagine on July10th that something like July
11th would happen next dayLiterally not even the people
that went to the street thefirst in San Antonio de los
Baños because the protestsstarted by 20 people going out
and doing a Facebook Live videoand that sparked a chain
reaction all over the islandthat led to hundreds of
(28:39):
thousands of people in thestreet.
No one, not even them, couldimagine that that would happen.
No one could imagine that inKaimanera.
This is the closest town to theLa Baza Naval de Guantanamo,
the United States base in Cuba,so it is very militarized, it's
(29:00):
under great surveillance.
The protest had nothing to dowith the United States' military
base.
No one was saying he wanted tocross, no, it was about freedom.
But this was the last town youknow.
Any of us would imagine thatsomething like this would happen
.
And it was hundreds of peopleand they shouted Libertad, Vivan
(29:20):
los Derechos Humanos, which Ithink is pretty straightforward.
They were not just saying weare hungry, leave the embargo.
No, they were saying freedom,Vivan los Derechos Humanos and,
yeah, and abajo la dictadura.
So that's pretty muchstraightforward for a protest.
So no one gets confused aboutthe real motives of it.
Marie Berry (29:42):
Absolutely.
I think that's it's verycompelling.
I know if I can share witheveryone that you were forced
into exile and for the last yearyou've lived outside of Cuba.
Last year and several monthsYou've lived outside of Cuba.
Can you take us through whatthat has been like for you and
(30:03):
what it's been like to begin todo this work, not as somebody
living within the country on theisland, but actually as
somebody abroad, as somebodytrying to think strategically
and creatively about how we doadvance freedom in Cuba in the
long run?
Carolina Barrero (30:21):
I will start by explaining how I was forced
into exile, because maybe youare thinking, oh, did they put a
gun in my head?
Did they just took me to theplane by force?
Well, sort of.
They didn't put a gun and theydidn't put rocks in me and put
me on a plane, but theythreatened me with other people,
(30:44):
especially with mothers ofpolitical prisoners that were
protesting with me.
I organized with them a protestin front of one of the courts
where the trials of July 11thwere happening.
Actually, that day they werejudging 33 people.
Nine of them were minors of ageat that moment and I was with
(31:08):
their mothers protesting outside.
They stopped the protests withviolence.
They took all of us to prison.
I was taken to a differentprison and this tape police
agent came to see me and I wasin prison.
I was not in my house arrest.
I was in Calaboso and he saidCarolina, you have 48 hours to
(31:34):
leave the country.
If you don't go, we willprosecute 12 of the mothers you
will protest.
And with he gave me a list forpublic disorder, as if public
disorder can be, you know asit's that, you know the love of
a mother can be called publicdisorder.
It is for public disorder forthem.
(31:57):
Apparently, your friend andactivist Daniela Rojo will be
will wait for trial in jailbecause she has already an
accusation for her participationin July 11th protest.
Your friend, michael Castillo,who is one of the singers and
composers of the Son Patre Vidamaybe some of you have heard
(32:20):
will not receive medicalattention in prison and his
request for a humanitarian visawill not be attended.
If you go, we are not saying wewill give it to him, but he
will not be attended, definitelyhe will not receive medical.
And then they continue.
Your best friend, which is ateacher actually at a university
(32:41):
like this one, we will spellher from university.
She will not be ever for her,she will not be not be possible
to teach anymore inside Cuba.
So that is not a decision tomake.
When you carry about yourself,your own responsibility is fine.
You can choose whatever youwant, but when other people and
(33:04):
the safety and the security ofthose people you know it's, you
don't have a choice.
So it was not a gun, but sortof.
So I've been since then in inExcel I.
I am in Madrid, which is aplace I know it's not the.
I went to Madrid to study someyears ago.
Actually, I hold a Spanishpassport, so it hasn't been as
(33:27):
traumatic as it is for otherpeople.
But of course, the place I wantto be is inside Cuba.
However, there is so much to doin Excel.
It's just another narrative ofthe Cuban regime to make you
feel that if you go to Excelyou're out of the game.
You cannot do anything else.
Actually, if you know thehistory of Cuba and many other
(33:50):
countries, many things startedin Excel In the case of Cuba.
For example, the revolutionitself, because Fidel Castro
came in a yacht after beingexiled so.
Or the the Independence War.
José Martí actually the authorof the poem I was reading spent
most of his life in Excel and heprepared the war there.
(34:13):
He founded the PartidoRevolucionario abroad and all
the the war of 1995 that endedthe colonialism in.
Cuba was prepared from abroad,and now I think activists are
beginning to understand thatinside and outside Cuba and the
(34:34):
strategies they can do together.
To be here talking to you toamplify the message is part of
our fight too, so that I havetried to use this month to
contribute and to amplify thevoices of the ones inside that
cannot cannot be here with ustoday.
Marie Berry (34:52):
2019, people have said, was the year on record
with the most protests in themost places across the globe.
More people participated inprotest movements in 2019, by
some counts than at any othertime in modern history or
recorded history.
In some ways, I think thisreflects a growing intolerance
(35:16):
and recognition with the lack offreedoms that so many people
live with in their lives today.
I'm wondering for youpersonally, carolina how has
working in community withactivists from other parts of
the globe, from outside of Cuba,meant?
What does that meant for yourown work and what have you
(35:37):
learned from these otherstruggles that people have been
fighting in different parts ofthe globe?
Carolina Barrero (35:44):
I have learned , basically, that we all are
facing the same challenges.
It's been amazing to meactivist woman from Iran, for
example, masiya Linajad, thatactually lives here in the.
States, great activist, andlistening to her saying oh, we
have so much problem withopposition unity.
(36:06):
What's going on, Masiya?
And she's telling me exactlythe same arguments that we
Cubans have been facing for 60years.
And then you talk to aVenezuelan activist, and it is
the same.
A Nicaraguan activist, and itis the same.
When I talk to Cuban activistsabout this, we usually say, oh,
(36:27):
it's because we are Cubans, andthen it's because we are Latin
Americans and it's because wedon't agree on anything.
We are no material.
We have these problems.
But then is Iran, and you talkto Russian activists, and it is
worse, and China activists, it'sall over the world.
And then you start tounderstand there might be some
(36:53):
other things.
Obviously, possibly, and yes,there are many problems of
solidarity, maybe not materialenough movements, but also there
is an element of design that isintroduced there by the regimes
(37:13):
themselves, Because they havelearned how to create distrust,
Because it's the same patternseverywhere.
And by sharing this experiencewith activists, you start
thinking globally Also.
We live in a different worldnow than the 20th century.
We live in a world of allianceof autocrats.
(37:34):
I mean, you cannot just if youtalk about Putin.
You have to understand that theallies of Putin in Latin
America it are Raul Castro,Maduro and Ortega.
Lavrov, which is the foreignminister of Russia, was visiting
these three countries a monthago.
So it's not just that.
(37:56):
Oh yes, they are autocratic.
No, they are autocratic regimesworking together.
It's an alliance, a network ofautocrats.
So we activists have come torealize that if they work
together, so must we.
If they strategize together, ifthey share military information
, surveillance information, wealso must share strategies on
(38:19):
how to bring them down.
And it is better if we canthink also regionally and
globally.
We are not as much alone.
Marie Berry (38:29):
There is a lot of strength and muscle when you
create these kinds of alliance,and that is part of what I have
learned this year as well, Ithink that's beautiful, that if
the autocrats are workingtogether and they certainly are
that those of us on the side offreedom and justice have to be
doubling down and workingtogether and finding ways also
(38:52):
to overcome the fact that sooften the fracturing of these
movements for change happenswithin the movements, but it's
caused so often by these regimesthrough misinformation, through
these campaigns sowing theseeds of distrust, these ways in
which it's so easy to kind ofcause a movement to fracture and
(39:15):
to then fizzle.
I want to know where art fitsinto the solution here.
In your experience, it seems tome that there is something
profoundly powerful andsometimes very universal about
the experience of being able tosee poetry, to be able to see
art, to be able to create incommunity with other people.
(39:36):
Where do you see the arts andartists making a meaningful
impact in trying to challengethose autocratic tendencies and
networks?
Carolina Barrero (39:48):
They do, and that is why outgrads fear art is
so much, why they repress them,but they are only part of it
the citizens and the voice ofthe citizens, that is what needs
to be heard, and artists arepart of that process and part of
(40:08):
that bigger picture.
I think the most importantthing that artists do and, as I
said, writers, playwriters, evenphilosophers is to understand
the narratives and myths thatall of these regimes they have,
because what actually sustain aregime, even beyond military
(40:33):
forces, state security, is thepower of the story that holds
them, which is made of lies,which is a mirage, which is
something that distracts theaudience from the true
violations of human rightshappening behind.
And what artists can do is thatthey can create cracks on those
(40:57):
mirage, because they understandthe power of a storytelling,
the narratives behind it, andcan actually propose artifacts,
art that can actually unravelthat spell, and I think that's
why they are so dangerous andfear by dictators.
Marie Berry (41:19):
I think that's beautifully put.
I want to ask where do we gonext and, specifically in terms
of the context in Cuba, what isthe next step for the movement
that opposes the regime?
What is your role and perhaps,what can those of us in the
audience that are interested inknowing more, learning more, do
(41:40):
to be a part of that next step.
Carolina Barrero (41:42):
It is a very diverse movement.
I don't have not the first, notthe last voice about it, but
one thing we all share is weneed to maintain pressure, we
need to establish more links,more solidarity, we need to
strategize together.
We need to expose more theregime.
(42:05):
This is not an opinion, it is afact.
The Cuban regime has never beenas weak as it is right now, for
many reasons.
One of them, of course, is theprotest movement, which is still
very much alive despite therepression.
The other one is that thecredibility of the Dias Canel
(42:28):
appointed government and RaulCastro's regime is very fragile
is very difficult to sustain anargument that defends them,
especially in the light ofeverything that happened after
July 11.
They have no credibility infront of international opinion
and no credibility inside Cuba.
(42:50):
After the ratification process,the elections that happened on
March 26, almost no othercountry congratulated Dias Canel
as appointed president, except,I think, bolivia, venezuela, of
course, the usual suspects, butnot even among them.
(43:10):
He received too many, and Ithink it was the first time that
something like that happened,and what that means is lack of
recognition by internationalcommunity.
They are pretty much alone,only with Russia and Venezuela,
and that's good news.
It is good news for Cubanpeople because, in the path for
(43:32):
freedom, to expose autocrats andnot to normalize a dictatorship
is very helpful, especially forthe democratic forces.
So for us it's to keep pushingas much as we can.
Solidarity is also veryimportant.
If a group do and I willexplain it if a group in Cuba
(43:55):
does an action, the rest shouldsupport.
It doesn't matter if there aredifference about I don't know
whatever.
That doesn't matter.
We are all fighting for freedom, so we should stand for each
other's safety and support.
This is very important.
That's why, in Poland,solidaridad was a name given by
(44:18):
Waleza to the movement ofworkers and dos sindicatos, and
it has actually been.
It has played a key role in allof the protests.
All of the protests that I show, and more, because these were
just examples were sparked bysolidarity, so that is also part
of the solution.
Marie Berry (44:38):
I think that that is at the core of what we've
been trying to build at theInclusive Global Leadership
Initiative here at the CorbelSchool.
It's a real how do we help tocreate a container for the
deepening of solidarity betweenactivists from different
contexts that may, at thesurface level, think the work
that they're doing is different,but actually we spend a little
(45:02):
time together and we realizethat we're all fighting the same
battles different stakes,different contexts and
oftentimes different materialcircumstances but the underlying
root systems that are harmingso many people in the world
today are shared.
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