November 7, 2023 • 48 mins
In a revelatory segment, we unpack the troubling case of Robert Card, an Army reservist grappling with mental health issues yet having alarmingly easy access to firearms. We hold nothing back as we question the efficacy of gun control laws in the United States. The narrative of veterans and their struggles with mental health, homelessness, and inadequate support systems during their transition to civilian life is another pertinent issue we delve into. The episode culminates with the missed signs that lead to the heartbreaking loss of life in a picturesque Maine town. Pushing us us to further question the state of mental health support in our society.
As we wrap up, we extend an earnest plea to our listeners to seek help, especially given the distressing content covered. While we believe in sparking crucial conversations around these challenging issues, we also value your mental wellbeing. So, join us in this thought-provoking exploration, connect with us through our various platforms, and remember, taking care of your mental health is paramount.
CNN.com The Maine gunman text book case for a state law. 11-9-2023
The New York Times the Maine shooter showed warning signs. 11-2-2023
USA Today Who is Robert Card? 10-26-2023
Contact us at: whatweloseintheshadows@gmail.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:11):
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the
Shadows.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
A Father Daughter True Crime Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
My name is Jamison Keyes.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Caroline.
Good morning everyone.
I hope everyone had a goodweekend and we're filming this.
Yeah, so this week, next week,we will have a long weekend,
which is really exciting.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You will you will.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, I'll be working Anyways.
So I guess neither one of uswill, but someone out there will
, someone will, and if you do,please Enjoy it, enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Enjoy it for both of us.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm good.
How about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm doing really well .
Actually, I'm really.
I'm in a good mood and I wantedto mention I know I made you
watch it, watch one episode butI'm caught up at this point with
the Golden Bachelor and I knowtons of people out there love
the Golden Bachelor as much as Ido.
I think it's so sweet and hassuch a good message that older
(01:07):
people can still find love evenif they've already had love in
their life, and I think it'sbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Um I.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You liked it.
You liked it when you watchedit.
Stop playing.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Don't tell Caroline I didn't watch it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
No, we watched it together.
Didn't we watch an episodetogether?
No, yes, we did, we didn't.
Oh, we didn't.
Oh, I thought I made you watchit, oh wow.
Who did I make watch that?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
I don't know Some other old guy.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I don't have old men hanging around.
As a lesbian, there's reallynot many old men around that I
uh definite none that I wouldmake watch the Golden Bachelor.
Maybe I made mom watch it, Idon't know.
But maybe I don't think I madeher watch it either.
I don't know who the hellwatched it.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Maybe it was us.
It was not me, though I cantell you that.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, I will be making you watch it at some
point.
It's really sweet, and I nevergot into the bachelor or the
bachelorette, uh ever, and I'venever watched any of them.
But neither.
Yeah, no, a lot of people likethem.
So when they came out with thegolden bachelor, that's when my
girlfriend and I were like, yes,we need to watch this because
(02:14):
it sounds, it's just sowholesome.
You know, like a bunch of likeolder people, everyone's 60 or
above dating Like it's justsweet.
What they need.
What they need is to have adeaf and hard of hearing
bachelor bachelorette.
I think that would be so coolbecause then they could just
have like interpreters and theycould do voiceovers and
(02:35):
everything with the interpretersand I don't know.
I just think it would be socool.
But before that, I'm surethey'll have the bachelorette,
the golden bachelorette, like tohave an older woman first, and
they still haven't had a gay one.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
No, that is crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
It's been 20 years and they still haven't been like
maybe we should have a gay one.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Do you think women would be okay with being the
golden bachelorette?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Really.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh yeah, you should see the woman on the show.
Like they're like not ashamedof their age at all.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Right, but he's the golden bachelorette.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's, I don't know, I don'tknow.
I just think age is such anuneven thing for men and women.
I mean, for example, men if,like, for example, I'm starting
to get a little gray on thecorners here and just the
corners, just the corners, notjust the corners.
(03:31):
Wow, really Rear, but anywaysno.
And people will people come upand say I love you know, I love
that little, that salt andpepper thing going on.
And I think there's a doublestandard, because all too often,
if women let their hair go gray, sometimes they're saying well,
you know, you should dye that.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, so men can be distinguished, but women are
just kind of labeled as old andI'm not sure I.
You know that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, but maybe that would help like the stigma you
know like have like the goldenbachelorette, because you should
see some of these women on theon the show.
Yeah, they are literallystriking Right, striking with
their gray hair Like it's.
It's like silver, you know,it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Your grandmother had beautiful, kind of like a sable
colored hair and she dyed it.
For we're really getting so faroff track.
I apologize.
No, it's fine, but no, she, she, she died over some years, you
can skip it if you want.
She died it for so many yearsand then, when she let it go, it
was just silver.
I mean just like silver.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah yeah, hopefully I get that gene.
I think it'd be pretty withcurls.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh, for sure, Right, I'm happy.
So cool Curls.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
But we'll see, we shall see.
I think it's a beautiful thingto age, you know, and to be
allowed, like the privilege toage, and this, um, this podcast
reminds me of that a lot that,like, not everyone gets to to
grow old, true.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That is true.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
You know it's unfair.
So, like you know, I have a Ihave a really close friend who
is uncomfortable with the, theidea of aging um, which is
totally valid, you know, and I'msure that, like there'll be
pros and cons and like I willfeel like uncomfortable with it
sometimes, but like I imaginemyself like later in life having
like smile lines and, like youknow, crow's feet, and I think
(05:21):
it's really beautiful, cause itshows, like how much of life
you've actually lived.
Yeah, so I don't know thetrigger warnings today are a
mass shooting, domestic violenceand child murder.
That being said, um, if I know,a lot of people have mass
shooting triggers, even if theyhaven't actually been involved
(05:44):
with a mass shooting or, youknow, had someone they know
involved with the mass shooting.
But it's common and I think alot of us are very scared of it.
So if that's not your thing,feel free to skip this one,
because I know it can be reallytriggering for some people.
But I do think that there's alot of importance by telling the
stories For sure, and we'vedone a lot of different things.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
We've done, you know, um missing persons, and we've
done, you know, serial killersand things like that.
I'm not sure we've ever talkedabout this before, but it's so
it's um.
It's happened just so recently,just a few weeks back.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
It's very prevalent.
I'm sure there's been anotherone that we don't even know
about.
Isn't that scary?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, because you know, the very definition of a
mass shooting is one personkilling four people.
So it probably happens everyday, every day somewhere.
But the ones that really getthe notoriety are the
unfortunately, the the more.
Yeah right and this shockingones, shocking ones, and this
was both of those things.
So on October 25th, which wasjust a couple of weeks ago, a
(06:44):
man entered the Justin Timebowling alley and McGeagy's bar
and grill, and he was carryingat least one long rifle.
According to the eyewitnessthat survived the census rampage
, 18 people were killed and theyranged in age from 14 to 76.
Among them was a younger boy,and he was bowling with his dad
(07:07):
and contestants at a cornholetournament for the deaf
community.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
This is something that definitely pulls at my
heartstrings the child, ofcourse, but also the deaf
community, because a lot of thetimes, like deaf people they
gather in these places and mebeing involved in the deaf
community, it breaks my heart tosee that, like those spaces are
also getting like overtaken byviolence.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
When you know deaf people and hard of hearing
people have overcome so muchalready.
That being said, there's alsointerpretive versions ASL
interpretive versions of ourepisodes on YouTube.
If you search what we lose inthe shadows podcast, that's our
YouTube panel, and so all of ourepisodes are either already
(07:54):
interpreted and downloaded oruploaded, not downloaded,
uploaded or in the process ofbeing interpreted and uploaded.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Right.
And so not only were thereactually deaf people at this
shooting and involved in it aswell, but there was, I believe,
in the fatalities.
I think there was an ASLinterpreter in addition to that.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, A lot of ASL interpreters are like deep in
the community, myself included.
I have tons of deaf friends butyeah, that is tragic.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Absolutely tragic.
The shooter was lateridentified as Robert Carr and he
was an army reservist.
And Carr was someone very, veryfamiliar with firearms.
He was actually a firearmsinstructor at the local army
base.
It's terrifying.
Yeah, and he was an employee ofMaine Recycling Corporation.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
A recycling corporation?
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
After the violence, I thought he's conducted an
extensive 48 hour manhunt andthat marked one of the deadliest
shootings in the United Statesthis year and definitely the
deadliest shooting in the stateof Maine.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Ever right.
Ever, and it's a real violence,especially gun violence,
because it's a blue state.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Well, it is.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Isn't it a blue state ?
I'm pretty sure it is.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
There are only two murders in the entire state last
year.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
And this literally just almost came up to 18.
Wow, that's intense.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
With many men and where people harmed and injured.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
So, while questions remain over the motivations for
the attack and why thoselocations were targeted,
previous warnings about Carr arestarting to come to light and
raising questions about howauthorities handle the warning
signs and also his access tofirearms.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
What do you think Carr has per?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
usual, the county sheriff's office was contacted
on May 3rd by Carr's family, whosaid that they were concerned
for his wellbeing and that heshared access or had access to
firearms.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
His own family.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
His own family oh my God.
Yeah, actually the documentsshow that Carr's 18 year old son
oh my God Was the first toreport that his father, you know
, was accusing people of talkingabout him since January.
Now he was starting to havetrouble with his hearing as well
, which may be why he wasfamiliar with some of these
folks in the deaf community.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
That's very tragic.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So the email also alleges that Carr got into an
altercation with three of hisfriends that were also soldiers
in West Point on July 15th.
Carr was accused of pushing oneof the soldiers and making
threats about someone who hadcalled him pedophile and they
were like look.
When his friends talked to himthey said look, knock it off,
(10:34):
because you know you're gonnaget in trouble.
Talking about shooting upplaces and people, and Carr had
actually punched this gentlemaninto the statement and he
mentioned that you know he had abunch of guns and he was gonna
go shoot up the drill center atSACO, which was the Army Reserve
base.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That is horrible.
I just feel like we need betterpreventative protocols for this
, because this is, you know, alot of the times.
We have so many warning signsbefore these mass shootings.
Like everyone, it's so sad andI just feel like we need to
develop better protocols on howto handle situations like this.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
For sure.
So after speaking with thefamily, the deputy contacted the
third battalion of the 304thtraining group to help Carr to
receive medical attention.
Carr was taken to a psychiatrichospital where he spent two
weeks before being released Nota lot of time to diagnose a
mental problem.
The Army in July said that Carrshould not have weapons and
(11:35):
should not handle ammunition norparticipate in any live fire
activities, after people weresaying he was behaving
erratically.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
In September, an Army Reserve unit that he belonged
to reached out to the sheriff'soffice again and asked for a
wellness check and, according toa soldier, he was expressing
that you know that thereservists might snap and commit
a mass shooting.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Now, about two months later.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
What happened with the wellness check?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
They did.
They went out and tried toperform a wellness check and
weren't able to get in touchwith Carr.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Which a wellness check can be.
You know a lot of differentthings.
They went there, they knockedon the door.
He never came to the door.
They did it a couple of timesand then you know more pressing
things I guess actually happened.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I called a wellness check on a friend once and
because they were supposed tocall me, and I fell asleep and
then I woke up again and theyhadn't called me.
And it's been three hours and Iwas like, oh, that's weird.
So I tried to call them.
It was like 1 am and I'm likewhat the hell?
And this was someone I wasdating, so that kind of friend.
(12:44):
So I was very concerned.
I was like they should havecalled, you know, and I couldn't
get in touch with them.
I tried our friends in common.
They hadn't heard from them.
So I called a wellness checkWhole time.
They were literally just passedout drunk in their apartment.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
If that were only the problem.
Yeah, when these things happen.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I know I was.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
But yeah.
So a deputy went out to Card'shome on September 15th and then
again on September 16th, butdidn't see him and repeatedly
tried to knock on the door andget someone to come to the door.
Card never did no.
Whether he was there or not, noone knows.
So the sheriff's office issuedan alert to other law
enforcement agencies about Card,stating that he was armed and
dangerous.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yikes.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
The sheriff's office said that this is called a file
19.
So the file 19 alert said, andit's common when law enforcement
is trying to locate a personthat might have some issues.
But they wanna get that out.
There the information, so morepeople can be looking for.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's not like a search warrant or not a search
warrant, a warrant of arrest.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
So the file 19 alerts just go to law enforcement, but
it doesn't go as far as awarrant.
This is basically just an alert.
Listen, there might besomething going on here.
Keep your eyes open.
This guy's potentiallydangerous.
He certainly has militarytraining, firearms training.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So just keep your eyes open.
I wonder why they didn't issuelike a warrant of arrest because
he was making threats oneveryone's lives.
Strange that they wouldn't goand remove his firearms from him
.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Well, so Robert had been suffering from psychotic
episodes and he was hearingvoices, and you and I discussed
hearing voices as something notnecessarily evil, but something
that's certainly no no, I don'tthink people who hear voices are
evil.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I do think that, like you know, it can be really
tough to distinguish.
I have worked with communitiesthat you know have had mental
health issues, which includepsychosis and like hearing
voices, and Definitely you knowthe people are not evil, right
right.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But I think it's but the reactions sometimes can be.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, of course, but that's anyone.
It's not as much as the actions, but I just I think what really
distinguishes that group ofpeople is having difficulty
understanding what is real andwhat is, you know, a
hallucination, like ahallucination.
And so you know, anyone that'slike having like consistent
hallucinations probablyshouldn't have firearms of any
(15:09):
sort.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
No doubt about that.
There's absolutely no doubtabout that.
So they did send out thisinformation that he was a
firearms instructor and that hemade threats to shoot up the
National Guard Armory, and thenhe had been committed over the
summer for a couple weeksbecause of an altered mental
health state.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I just feel like that's enough, that should be
enough.
I hope at some point they putinto law that this is enough to
take someone's firearms away,because no one needs that.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
We'll get into that in just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Oh, okay, sorry, I'm jumping, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
But they also said you know, if you locate him,
please use extreme caution, DearGod.
His ex-wife also told thedeputy that Card had picked up
10 to 15 handguns and firearms.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Where.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Well, they were actually at his brother's house,
according to her.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Who needs 10 to 15 handguns and firearms?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Well, I mean exactly.
That's a great point, but shealso said that she and her son
were planning to stay away fromCard.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
That is terrifying.
I'm glad that they communicated.
They definitely did their duediligence with that, because
communication is definitely thebiggest key, I think, with these
situations, and it seems like alot of people were in
communication with lawenforcement about this.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So the deputy spoke to Card's unit commander who
confirmed that Card no longerhad any weapons from the reserve
unit with him and the commanderalso advised that he didn't
have access to the area anymore,that all his weapons had been
removed.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So was he discharged.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
No, he wasn't discharged.
The commander also advised themto back down a bit, saying that
might not be a good idea toforce a contact.
So they canceled the File 6Alert on October 18th, exactly
one week before the massshooting.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
There's an organization called the Violence
Project and it's a nonprofitthat tracks mass shootings,
which is defined as, as we saidbefore, as four or more people
murdered in one event.
But, to be clear, only afraction of the people with
military backgrounds become massshooters.
But military experience issomething.
There's somethingdisproportionate about that,
(17:22):
about the numbers.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Well, I think one reason is that military and
veterans often don't have accessto mental health services or
see it in a way that is frownedupon.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Well, sure, because if you are in the military or
somehow related to the militaryand you show that sort of a
problem, it would reduce, itmight get you kicked out of the
military.
Yeah, james Densley, theco-founder of the Violence
Project, says what we all knowthat most military personnel
(17:59):
have successful lives aftertheir service and that we're
very grateful for thecontribution that they may.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Absolutely.
However, I do think that thereneeds to be, like, enough access
to mental health servicesbecause, especially like if
you're being deployed or I meanI feel like a lot of military
even if they're not deployed orin high stress situations, and
so you know, I think that thereshould be less of a stigma
around mental health servicesfor those who are in the
(18:27):
military or work for themilitary, because it's not just
PTSD, you know, it's depression,it's anxiety and like I don't
necessarily think that if youhave any of those that you
should have your weapons takenaway and I'm not sure of the
protocols for the military forthat but I think that you know,
having access to good mentalhealth services and someone to
(18:49):
discuss like your emotionalwell-being with is super
important in any situation,especially high stress
situations.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
A CBS news analysis of the data shows that 26% of
mass shootings over the last sixdecades have had military
service or military training intheir background.
That's high compared to thegeneral US adult population,
which is like 7%.
So fewer than one in 10 peoplehas military background,
(19:19):
according to the US CensusBureau.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Not all of them were deployed.
Some of them actually, you know, just went through basic
training, but they do have somekind of a through line, a
military connection in thosehistories.
Denzli said that we actuallyhave 14 or 15 mass shooters in
our database that were actuallymarksmen or snipers in the
military.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
That's very intense.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Because you know, there's some skills that they're
learned in the military whichlend themselves to mass
shootings and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Wow, that's so scary.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
It's important to remember, though, that studies
reveal there's never just onereason for someone committing
one of these violence acts.
Often, there are underlyingmental health concerns as well.
According to the analysis.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, I think that is the main reason.
Right Is a mental health issue.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Or like a breakdown, or you know, high stress mixed
with mental health, because Idon't think anyone who is doing
well whatever commit like a massmurder.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
No, absolutely.
You know what I mean, so I dothink that's the common thread.
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And I feel like you know the best way to prevent
that is like by requiring orhighly encouraging for everyone,
especially those in themilitary, to seek out mental
health services, and making thataccessible for everyone.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
For sure.
According to Denzli, people inthe military often deal with
behavioral challenges and mentalhealth problems.
In some cases, that wasactually the reason why they
were discharged from themilitary and it seems to be that
there's.
An integration back intocivilian life can be difficult
at some times and havingstruggling, trying to piece
their life back together.
I think it's that mix which isprobably what the underpinning
(21:04):
of some of these attacks are.
I'm curious Do you remember theguy that kidnapped the girl
from her house and killed herparents and hit her on the-?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So that we discussed?
Yeah, that we discussed.
So if you remembered that, doyou recall?
He tried to get into theMarines, yeah, but he was kicked
out of Marines and kind offloundered and kind of struggled
ever since then, leading tothat act.
So it's horrible.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, it really truly is horrible, but I feel like
maybe and I'm not sure if thereis such a thing, but it reminds
me of kind of like adultprotective services and how
people in certain situationswhether it be homelessness,
mental health, like severemental health issues or
(21:57):
developmental delays people ingroup homes, like all different
types of addiction, alldifferent types of situations,
have case managers.
And so I'm curious if those thatare discharged or leave even
just leave voluntarily themilitary, if they have something
similar to that like a casemanager that helps them, like
re-.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Acclimate them to society.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, and to society?
Do they have that?
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I don't know, but I think that's a great idea, I'm
curious and they probably do.
They probably do.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm curious though, because it seems like they don't
, because this seems like itwould come up.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Well, if you'll notice like there's an awful
high percentage also of peoplethat are homeless, that have
former military training as well, yes, it's very, very sad.
It is, it is, and you know Imean, it's a terrible thing.
My father was a World War IIveteran your grandfather and
once in a while he would, in themiddle of the night, have PTSD
(22:53):
and scream and yell and stufflike that, which, as a child, is
terrifying, you know, and Iwould always, always trying to
protect my mother, I would burstinto their bedroom.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
That's so sweet.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Like a seven year old ninja of some sort Very
protective, very protective Forseven.
That's right for seven and youknow she would be there trying
to.
She's saying it's okay, youknow fun and I would ask him
sometime.
He never wanted to talk aboutit and I think all too often
that they deal and see thingsthat are just so far beyond what
normal people have to deal withmentally.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
At least people in our country.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right, well, yeah right, but they're so far beyond
the normal everydayinteractions that sometimes they
just can't.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's very traumatic.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
That's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
But, like my thing is that oftentimes, like there are
tools that you know mentalhealth professionals can you
know help people with and helpimplement them into their
everyday routines that reallydrastically help these
situations, but for some reasonthere's such a stigma about it.
In our society, not just themilitary, but probably even more
(24:02):
so the military, but in oursociety in general, and I really
think it's really important tobreak this down, because we
would be a healthier, happiersociety if people had access to
mental health services.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I agree, I agree and I'm a proponent of basically we
spend so much money and send somuch money all over the world
for stupid things.
Or we send money to doridiculous studies on how a cow
belching actually affects theozone layer Just ridiculous
things, right?
I think a baseline.
Even if you don't wanna givepeople everyone healthcare in
(24:38):
this country, I think mentalhealth care should be, at the
very least, something thateveryone should have access to,
honestly.
And the thing about themilitary folks is they do?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
They definitely need it.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well and they do have access but like, for example,
you can go to the VeteransAdministration if you're a
veteran and they do have mentalhealth people that work there.
Now the problem I talked to amilitary person not long ago and
there's a real if they've seena lot of violence and so on,
there's a distrust sometimes ofthe authorities and that sort of
(25:08):
thing for some reason, and thelast thing they wanna do is go
to some place that mightactually confine them because of
some of the visions and some ofthe PTSD things that they're
experiencing.
So it can be.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So maybe not veteran affairs, then Maybe like a
non-profit focused on mentalhealth services for people in
the military that's separateentirely from the government
because therapists just regularcounselors, social workers,
therapists, they're not gonnaconfine you.
They're just there to workthrough things with you, as long
as you're not thinking abouthurting yourself or hurting
(25:44):
other people.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Right, absolutely, absolutely so, Robert Card.
He was only 40 and he wasdiscovered near the river about
10 miles away from the communityof Lewiston that he shot up
from a self-inflicted gunshotwound.
He was found inside of a boxtrailer sitting in an overflow
(26:07):
parking in the main recyclingcorporation where he worked and
where he was laid off from.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Card had, as I said, been recently fired from the
recycling center.
A law enforcement official toldCNN Some of those trailers were
locked and some of the trailersaren't.
He was found inside one of theboxes that had been unlocked
from the outside.
Two firearms were foundalongside Card's body.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's very sad.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And he was wearing the same T-shirt that he was
wearing on Wednesday night whenthe shooting occurred, so it's
unclear as to when he took hislife, but it could have been
directly after the shooting.
The main governor, janet Mills,said that she, like others, was
relieved that the manhunt wasover and the fear was over for
the community.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Although the fear never leaves right, Especially
if you're immediate communitybecomes like the target of mass
shooting.
Like I know, I personally, ifI'm ever out in like a big crowd
, I get nervous.
For example, my girlfriend andI went to the movie theaters the
other day.
A man walked in with a backpackand was like looking around,
(27:14):
not taking a seat, and weliterally were terrified.
We literally lost like fiveminutes of movie.
He walked back out and then wewere even scared, like more
scared, and I was like why washe in here with this backpack?
Like I don't understand.
He didn't even sit down.
We literally, like you know,we're totally distracted from
the movie and it's just like,yeah, it's really sad because
you know I look around sometimesand if there's a loud noise,
(27:37):
like everyone like goes down alittle bit until they realize oh
, it's okay, it's okay.
It's very slight but you know, Ithink like our entire community
, as the United States ofAmerica, is traumatized by these
shootings.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, sure, because per capita we have more than any
place else on the planet.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
It's very sad.
I just I really hope that youknow we figure out a way out of
this because it's it's tough.
It's tough to think like, oh,yeah, I want to bring children
into this.
Like, yeah, I want to send mychildren to school.
That's scary, that's so scary,it's even scary.
Sometimes I work in the schoolsLike I get nervous too.
I was involved with thelockdown not too long ago.
(28:17):
You remember, like, and therewas a student who did bring in a
gun and there was no shooting.
But you know it's traumatizing.
And I remember after that therewas a lockdown, maybe like four
months later at a differentschool, and I was working in the
elementary school that time andthat wasn't the same school, it
was the other school was at ahigh school level.
(28:38):
The student who did bring a gunbut I was working at the
elementary school level and youknow the children, they know you
know like we're like okay,we're going to have a lockdown
in case a stranger comes in.
They're like oh, like, in casesomeone comes to try to kill us
with a gun.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
God, the kids, the kids seven and eight.
They know and I'm not sayingthey shouldn't know, because you
know you do want to like letthem know what's going on in the
world.
I understand that and that'show I would choose to parent as
well.
But it is truly heartbreakingand like, during the lockdown, I
found myself like breathingheavy, like I was like anxious,
you know, like it was a littletriggering.
(29:15):
I looked over at one of theother people that was working,
like one of the other adults inthe room, and she was literally
in tears, like she was like thisis so scary, it's so sad, you
know.
And then they're like okay,thanks for practicing the drill,
go back to school.
Like, and it's just like youwant to just like hug these
little kids.
Because it's like, are youkidding?
Like, and the kids, you knowthey're very resilient and they
(29:37):
just absorb everything.
So they're just like okay, cool, we're done.
And like the adults are shakenfor the rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Well, but but is that that's partly part of their
wiring and partly because of thefact that they don't really
understand what could possiblyhappen?
Right?
I don't think they kind ofconceptually do, but they don't
really think it's going to.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Right, maybe I'm not sure, it's just, it's so strange
.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
And adults.
Unfortunately, we're all tooaware that it can happen.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, because we see it every five seconds on our
like news feed.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Absolutely so, and it's interesting.
The community has kind ofrallied around.
They were able to haveHalloween, although I'm sure
people were still a littlenervous about the whole thing.
But he had been found beforeHalloween.
So the community had, you know,bad Halloween.
Look, a football team had a.
You know a moment of silencefor all those people that were
(30:26):
lost.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And a guy I work for.
Actually his son plays in ayouth hockey organization in
Lewiston.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
At the time of the shooting.
He was actually.
They have a little thing wherethey teach little kids how to
skate and how to play hockey.
He was actually in the arena,which isn't too far from the
bowling alley.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's so scary yeah and it's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
He couldn't go home because it was really close to
the shooting, so he couldn'tactually go home.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And then I mean, that must have been so terrifying
for your friend.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Right, oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
And then for your friend's son, who was there with
all the children, like and he'spicturing, you know, like, okay
, if this guy comes in here,what am I gonna do?
Right right which kids am Igonna help?
How sad is that.
Which kids am I gonna grab?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
right, they're, actually it's McGeagy's which
was the bar when he came in andstarted firing.
They're at the bowling alley,rather one, because not only was
it, you know, not only was itthe the, you know, the Cornhole
tournament for the deafcommunity there, but there's
also like a child's bowlingnight going on and you know, one
of the adults Was shepherdingthe kids out of the back of the
(31:33):
building and unfortunately hewas.
He was shot and killed sodisturbing, oh it is it's kids?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
were able to get out.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yes, that's great, that is great.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That's great, you know, and it's interesting
because I think a lot of thetimes, like you think, like, oh,
like I would want to do this inthis situation and those people
are so important, but like it'salso just so sad to see like
those good people that are likewilling to help their
communities lose their livesover someone who's deranged.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
The, the local hockey team actually had just, I think
was on Thursday of last week,they had a game and they
actually they, they had, theyhad this kind of ceremony and
they had a Hockey jersey broughtout with the number 18 on it,
which was the number peoplekilled and as a fundraiser and
(32:21):
so on.
So, yeah, it's, it's amazingthat this happens so often and
it's equally as amazing howresilient and how Comforting
communities can be, especiallylike this.
Lewiston is a town of 30,000people.
It's not gigantic, no, but it'sstill the second largest city
in all of Maine, right, yeah,that's so, um, but you know, I'm
sure they never thought in amillion years they would have to
(32:43):
be dealing with this now.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I mean, I wonder when .
The last mass shooting therewas probably years and years ago
.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
If yeah, who knows?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I mean I'm sure there was one, the average 22 murders
in a year.
So so not a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Never have been Something of that scale, is
something that's probably not.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I mean, that is just so tragic.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Right, so you'd mentioned something earlier and
Maine is actually known as ayellow flag state and it's the
only one of its kind in thenation.
The law was enacted in 2020 andco-sponsored by Republican
State Senator Lisa Kime.
By contrast, massachusetts hasa red flag law.
I was trying to understand thedifference between the two
(33:23):
things to better get a grasp onhow enforcement have law
enforcement handles Situationslike this.
Massachusetts allows relativesor roommates to apply for a
court order if they believe agun owner Is a violent threat.
If the judge approves the order, the gun odor must Temporarily
surrender their guns and licensefor their guns.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
This can be appealed and they can get their guns back
.
Now, maine is a so-calledyellow flag state and it has a
few extra steps in the middle.
So someone who's suspected ofgun owners that isn't, you know,
an imminent threat, whetherthat be a close relative, you
know, or whatever Can reportthis to the local police and
then the local law enforcementcan handle it by taking the
(34:09):
person into protective custody.
Which they did not do whichthey did not do and I wonder why
well, they'd never done itbefore this.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
This was an active recent you said 2020, okay, okay
.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So they put the person in protective custody to
get a mental health evaluation.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
It's a great idea and then.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
But then they have to go back to the court to obtain
on order to confiscate the gunstemporarily.
Then, and only then can a courtorder Do you temporarily
suspend the gun license andremove the guns?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
So is the person who is deemed possibly a threat.
Are they in the mental hospitalthe entire time while they're
waiting for that, or no?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
depends.
Depends on what they find right, because a lot of people can
make Claims right and you wouldhope that no one would do this
maliciously, just to yeah, butI'm sure it happens.
Yeah, but it happens right ofcourse.
So in my opinion, okay.
So Maine has the extra steps inthe middle.
So so to be clear, and I'm not,I don't, I've.
(35:10):
I grew up in Pennsylvania andyou know my parents, my father,
we went deer hunting, on thatsort of thing and there was a
necessity for us because of thatperiod of time we needed we did
to make a.
You know, the inflation wasvery high and that sort of thing
, and we needed to somehow Forgethe gap between what we had and
what we had to spend, right.
So deer hunting and that sortof thing and venison Kind of
(35:31):
helped us do just that and youate it.
Yeah, oh, that makes sense, youknow we didn't, we didn't keep
the racks, we gave this way andall this kind of stuff, but it
was a necessity.
We hunted and, because we hadto, to eat exactly that makes
sense.
I don't own guns, right, Ididn't have guns around children
because that my personalopinion was that it's unsafe.
Well, it can be unsafedepending on how you do it.
(35:51):
There's some people that it cando it very well if they're
locked away.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
They're locked away and that's sort of appropriate
things like right a lot ofsafeguarding because, like I
mean, having a gun in the Houseis an inherent risk.
So there are statistics thatprove, having a gun in the house
, you will.
I mean you have a higher rateof you know your child dying by
accidental firing.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
That may well be so, but but, like I said, we didn't
have access to the guns Unlesswe were going hunting.
They weren't around the house,they were locked up somewhere.
I never looked for him, I neverwanted to see him.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
But what if you had?
You know what I mean kids are,kids are my father was really
serious about it.
He, he but imagine if I hadwanted to find.
You know what I mean.
Like if I had a child wanted tofind the gun, I would find it
Well.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I know they were locked away.
It wasn't something just layingaround, it was locked away.
I didn't know how to pick alock, certainly, so you know.
But but and my father was very,very serious about this is what
it is for, it's not a toy.
If you're ever at someone'shouse and they produce a gun,
you walk the hell out of there.
And I told I told your brotherthat as well if any of his
friends actually produced a gun,then call me, and I don't know,
(36:58):
I'll come and get you.
But yeah, you told me to, yeah,and you too so, but it's so
much more likely that a boywould you know.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, but like if young girls are hanging out with
little boys right, right, butso so I'm.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
If you're a hunter in and you and you want to hunt
and you want to have you knowguns, you know that's, that's,
that's great, right.
If you don't like guns anddon't want to have me run your
children, that's great too.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
It's all a personal choice, yeah and I'm not one, as
I was safe with it.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
I was always just safe with it, but I'm not one to
want to go in and grabeveryone's guns right, Because I
think that's that could lead totwo issues as well.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I personally have other opinions.
I do not think that guns arenecessary for our nation,
especially the Machine guns.
I think those are actuallyridiculous and it's disturbing
so that anyone who Doesn't haveany training can go and pick one
up and someone who just wantsit because they think they're
(37:55):
cool can go Pick up somethingthat can kill hundreds of people
.
It's disgusting to me.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
So so.
So a machine gun and an AR-15,those are two different things.
Oh, they're different, they'redifferent.
I like a submachine orsomething like that fires
literally Sony more rounds,whereas an AR-15 is, it's a.
Every time you pull the trigger, there's a, you know there's a,
there's a shot.
Now you can add bump stocks andI don't want to get into this
(38:22):
whole thing, but it's, it's so.
The word AR doesn't mean aassault rifle.
It's not an assault rifle perse.
It is.
It is a powerful gun, it canfire a lot of rounds quickly,
but but it's not technically amachine gun, just to make that
clear.
That is helpful, because Ididn't know right, but if
someone like you said if someonewants to do harm as someone
(38:44):
else, it doesn't matter if theyhave a Six shooting pistol or a
knife or whatever.
If they want to do harm, thenthey can do that.
Now the thing about rifles likethis gentleman had, I believe
is an AR-15 is that the, theCiclical rate, the amount of
exactly you can fire it's somuch higher than something like
that.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I mean, and when we're talking about, like, mass
shootings, I think we often goto how many people were killed.
Numbers, right, we want to likelook at numbers, like
statistically, that's just likesure you know what we're
thinking about.
But we have to remember thateach Person that died was a
person who their, their loss andtheir death impacts Hundreds of
(39:29):
people, their family, theirpeople, their community.
You know what I mean.
Like I mean, this has impactedso many people we can't even
count the number.
And so if we could save just onelife by taking away all of that
category of like so if we could, you know, just save a few
(39:51):
lives by not having access, openaccess to just anyone who wants
these.
I mean it's priceless.
You know what I mean.
Like it's literally pricelessbecause just one less person who
isn't dead, you can't put aprice on it.
You know what I mean.
Like you really can't.
Like it's so, so important.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Right when you look at the numbers.
The numbers show that fiveyears since the red flag law was
implemented in Massachusetts,it's only been used 57 times.
Of those 57 times, 38 emergencyorders have been issued and
suspended gun licensetemporarily that were taken from
the potentially dangerousindividuals.
(40:34):
Still, a gun control advocateslike Margaret Groban from the
main gun safety coalition saysher red flag law is a much
better model than what they havein Maine right now.
We're the only state in thecountry she said it has a yellow
flag law and I'd like to saythat we are the outlier, not the
model.
The yellow places way too manyburdens on the people trying to
(40:57):
make sure people are safe.
If the goal is to get firearmsaway quickly out of the hands of
people who could potentially bedangerous, then why not go all
the way and have a red flag law?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
So, given the seemingly low numbers in
Massachusetts that use the redflag law, the president of the
Massachusetts chief of policeassociation says it's likely
that more of the publicinformation on the law would
lead to its use.
Perhaps it's a public servicecampaign that comes out of this
tragedy in Maine and perhapsthat could help Massachusetts
citizens as well as citizens ofMaine, said chief Thomas W
(41:33):
Fowler.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
So what other states have the red flag law?
So I did take a break to lookit up and we have figured out
that there are red flag laws,also known as risk based gun
removal laws, also known asextreme risk protection orders,
currently being served inColorado, Maryland,
(41:56):
Massachusetts, Michigan,Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey,
New York, Oregon, Rhode Island,Vermont, and Washington and the
District of Columbia.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
So how many is that?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Let's see One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
13.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
So they do have other similar things in New Mexico,
virginia, illinois, hawaii,california, delaware, florida,
connecticut and Indiana.
So that's 21 states in theDistrict of Columbia that have
enacted some form of red flaglaw, which is low, it is Very
(42:42):
low.
It's less than half.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
It is low, but given the fact of what's happening, I
think two things.
I think that most states, ifnot all states, should have a
red flag law in place.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
And I also think that every state in the union should
have an augmented mental healthpolicy.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Because, as we said before, the guns aren't
necessarily.
The guns are certainly a partof it, but the mental health
portion of the problem is thething.
But the biggest part, I think,is the fact that so many people
are hurting in the United States, so many people have underlying
mental health problems, and ifwe really wanna solve this and I
(43:27):
think everyone really doesright- I hope so.
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Sometimes it seems like that's not the case, though
.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Absolutely so.
But if that is indeed the case,then I think that our
legislators, I think that thepresident of the United States,
the Congress, the Senate andeveryone else should honestly
really start thinking about theproblems.
Not only gun violence, right,but also suicide, also physical
(43:56):
violence or rape and those kindsof things.
Rape is a huge issue too, it'sall interrelated to people that
have problems with mental healthproblems.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Right, I agree.
Mental health is like literallyone of the worst issues that
we've ever seen globally even.
And it's just.
It's so sad because there areways to treat this.
You know what I mean.
We have options to help curbthese horrible negative
situations happening.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
For sure.
For sure, because I mean, let'sface it, how many times have
you seen when someone is beingsentenced for murder or for a
mass murder or something likethat, how many times have you
seen the defendant go?
If I could only go back in timeand not do that, if I could
only take it back, maybe theselaws that just temporarily take
(44:49):
these people into protectivecustody for their own safety as
well as others, and then lookand see is this someone that
should?
Speaker 2 (44:57):
or help them, or help them get back to a better place
.
My thing is is that if peopleare not of the sound mind to
have a gun, if they're not astable person.
No one's community needs that.
No one needs that.
You know what I mean.
Like we have to protect thecommunity above individuals and
(45:19):
their rights if they aren't ableto make sound judgment with
those rights.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
For sure.
Do you know what I mean?
Absolutely.
There are some people, soobviously criminals, I think,
should perpetually, not, ever beallowed to.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
I think it depends on the crime.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Well, yes, violent criminals.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Violent criminals should never have access to
weapons.
Exactly Right?
Yeah, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
So anyways, but yes, there's a multi-pronged approach
to it.
Certainly, these laws, I think,are something beneficial to
look at in every state.
Certainly, I think the wholemental health problem in the
United States is somethingsolvable, is something that we
should all have access to,because everyone, every once in
a while, needs a little bit ofhelp, right?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
And also everyone can benefit from these.
I think we really need todestigmatize mental health
services, therapy, counseling,like having any mental health
neurodivergence, because havinganxiety does not make you crazy.
That's my thing.
I think a lot of people thinkthat, having any sort of mental
health diagnosis, you shouldn'tbe allowed to do this, that or
(46:27):
whatever.
That's not true.
There are levels, there aretiers to if you're a threat or
not, and my anxiety does notmake me a threat, but I think
that everyone can benefit fromtherapy and if you want therapy,
I totally think that you shouldget that.
And I just want to mention howprofoundly sorry we are to the
(46:50):
family members of those who lostloved ones in this mass
shooting, and everyone deservesto feel safe in their
communities.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Absolutely and far too many times, I think people
think that asking for help is asign of weakness.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
But honestly, if you're really looking at it from
the right way, asking for helpis actually a sign of strength.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
It is and love and love for your community, love
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
So, absolutely so.
This was a very, this was aterrible situation and it's
certainly something that we needto find a handle on and get
this solved.
And for all those people thatlost loved ones in that shooting
and any mass shooting, in everymass shooting, our heart is
with you.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Absolutely Follow the show on whatever streaming site
you're listening on.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
And remember.
All of the source material willbe available in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the
shadows and let us know if youwant to hear a specific case or
if you just want to give us somefeedback.
Ok, join us in the shadows nextTuesday.
Bye.
Good morning and welcome to what we Lose in the
Shadows.
Speaker 2 (00:14):
A Father Daughter True Crime Podcast.
Speaker 1 (00:16):
My name is Jamison Keyes.
Speaker 2 (00:18):
I'm Caroline.
Good morning everyone.
I hope everyone had a goodweekend and we're filming this.
Yeah, so this week, next week,we will have a long weekend,
which is really exciting.
Speaker 1 (00:32):
You will you will.
Speaker 2 (00:34):
Well, I'll be working Anyways.
So I guess neither one of uswill, but someone out there will
, someone will, and if you do,please Enjoy it, enjoy it.
Speaker 1 (00:43):
Enjoy it for both of us.
Speaker 2 (00:44):
How are you doing?
Speaker 1 (00:46):
I'm good.
How about yourself?
Speaker 2 (00:47):
I'm doing really well .
Actually, I'm really.
I'm in a good mood and I wantedto mention I know I made you
watch it, watch one episode butI'm caught up at this point with
the Golden Bachelor and I knowtons of people out there love
the Golden Bachelor as much as Ido.
I think it's so sweet and hassuch a good message that older
(01:07):
people can still find love evenif they've already had love in
their life, and I think it'sbeautiful.
Speaker 1 (01:13):
Um I.
Speaker 2 (01:16):
You liked it.
You liked it when you watchedit.
Stop playing.
Speaker 1 (01:20):
Don't tell Caroline I didn't watch it.
Speaker 2 (01:22):
No, we watched it together.
Didn't we watch an episodetogether?
No, yes, we did, we didn't.
Oh, we didn't.
Oh, I thought I made you watchit, oh wow.
Who did I make watch that?
Speaker 1 (01:32):
I don't know Some other old guy.
Speaker 2 (01:34):
I don't have old men hanging around.
As a lesbian, there's reallynot many old men around that I
uh definite none that I wouldmake watch the Golden Bachelor.
Maybe I made mom watch it, Idon't know.
But maybe I don't think I madeher watch it either.
I don't know who the hellwatched it.
Speaker 1 (01:50):
Maybe it was us.
It was not me, though I cantell you that.
Speaker 2 (01:53):
Well, I will be making you watch it at some
point.
It's really sweet, and I nevergot into the bachelor or the
bachelorette, uh ever, and I'venever watched any of them.
But neither.
Yeah, no, a lot of people likethem.
So when they came out with thegolden bachelor, that's when my
girlfriend and I were like, yes,we need to watch this because
(02:14):
it sounds, it's just sowholesome.
You know, like a bunch of likeolder people, everyone's 60 or
above dating Like it's justsweet.
What they need.
What they need is to have adeaf and hard of hearing
bachelor bachelorette.
I think that would be so coolbecause then they could just
have like interpreters and theycould do voiceovers and
(02:35):
everything with the interpretersand I don't know.
I just think it would be socool.
But before that, I'm surethey'll have the bachelorette,
the golden bachelorette, like tohave an older woman first, and
they still haven't had a gay one.
Speaker 1 (02:52):
No, that is crazy.
Speaker 2 (02:54):
It's been 20 years and they still haven't been like
maybe we should have a gay one.
Speaker 1 (03:00):
Do you think women would be okay with being the
golden bachelorette?
Speaker 2 (03:04):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (03:05):
Really.
Speaker 2 (03:05):
Oh yeah, you should see the woman on the show.
Like they're like not ashamedof their age at all.
Speaker 1 (03:10):
Right, but he's the golden bachelorette.
Yeah, you know what I mean.
So it's, I don't know, I don'tknow.
I just think age is such anuneven thing for men and women.
I mean, for example, men if,like, for example, I'm starting
to get a little gray on thecorners here and just the
corners, just the corners, notjust the corners.
(03:31):
Wow, really Rear, but anywaysno.
And people will people come upand say I love you know, I love
that little, that salt andpepper thing going on.
And I think there's a doublestandard, because all too often,
if women let their hair go gray, sometimes they're saying well,
you know, you should dye that.
Speaker 2 (03:49):
Yeah, I totally agree .
Speaker 1 (03:51):
Yeah, so men can be distinguished, but women are
just kind of labeled as old andI'm not sure I.
You know that's a bad thing.
Speaker 2 (03:57):
Yeah, but maybe that would help like the stigma you
know like have like the goldenbachelorette, because you should
see some of these women on theon the show.
Yeah, they are literallystriking Right, striking with
their gray hair Like it's.
It's like silver, you know,it's really beautiful.
Speaker 1 (04:15):
Your grandmother had beautiful, kind of like a sable
colored hair and she dyed it.
For we're really getting so faroff track.
I apologize.
No, it's fine, but no, she, she, she died over some years, you
can skip it if you want.
She died it for so many yearsand then, when she let it go, it
was just silver.
I mean just like silver.
Speaker 2 (04:34):
Yeah yeah, hopefully I get that gene.
I think it'd be pretty withcurls.
Speaker 1 (04:39):
Oh, for sure, Right, I'm happy.
So cool Curls.
Speaker 2 (04:42):
But we'll see, we shall see.
I think it's a beautiful thingto age, you know, and to be
allowed, like the privilege toage, and this, um, this podcast
reminds me of that a lot that,like, not everyone gets to to
grow old, true.
Speaker 1 (04:58):
That is true.
Speaker 2 (04:59):
You know it's unfair.
So, like you know, I have a Ihave a really close friend who
is uncomfortable with the, theidea of aging um, which is
totally valid, you know, and I'msure that, like there'll be
pros and cons and like I willfeel like uncomfortable with it
sometimes, but like I imaginemyself like later in life having
like smile lines and, like youknow, crow's feet, and I think
(05:21):
it's really beautiful, cause itshows, like how much of life
you've actually lived.
Yeah, so I don't know thetrigger warnings today are a
mass shooting, domestic violenceand child murder.
That being said, um, if I know,a lot of people have mass
shooting triggers, even if theyhaven't actually been involved
(05:44):
with a mass shooting or, youknow, had someone they know
involved with the mass shooting.
But it's common and I think alot of us are very scared of it.
So if that's not your thing,feel free to skip this one,
because I know it can be reallytriggering for some people.
But I do think that there's alot of importance by telling the
stories For sure, and we'vedone a lot of different things.
Speaker 1 (06:05):
We've done, you know, um missing persons, and we've
done, you know, serial killersand things like that.
I'm not sure we've ever talkedabout this before, but it's so
it's um.
It's happened just so recently,just a few weeks back.
Speaker 2 (06:19):
It's very prevalent.
I'm sure there's been anotherone that we don't even know
about.
Isn't that scary?
Speaker 1 (06:23):
Yeah, because you know, the very definition of a
mass shooting is one personkilling four people.
So it probably happens everyday, every day somewhere.
But the ones that really getthe notoriety are the
unfortunately, the the more.
Yeah right and this shockingones, shocking ones, and this
was both of those things.
So on October 25th, which wasjust a couple of weeks ago, a
(06:44):
man entered the Justin Timebowling alley and McGeagy's bar
and grill, and he was carryingat least one long rifle.
According to the eyewitnessthat survived the census rampage
, 18 people were killed and theyranged in age from 14 to 76.
Among them was a younger boy,and he was bowling with his dad
(07:07):
and contestants at a cornholetournament for the deaf
community.
Speaker 2 (07:11):
This is something that definitely pulls at my
heartstrings the child, ofcourse, but also the deaf
community, because a lot of thetimes, like deaf people they
gather in these places and mebeing involved in the deaf
community, it breaks my heart tosee that, like those spaces are
also getting like overtaken byviolence.
Speaker 1 (07:32):
Right.
Speaker 2 (07:33):
When you know deaf people and hard of hearing
people have overcome so muchalready.
That being said, there's alsointerpretive versions ASL
interpretive versions of ourepisodes on YouTube.
If you search what we lose inthe shadows podcast, that's our
YouTube panel, and so all of ourepisodes are either already
(07:54):
interpreted and downloaded oruploaded, not downloaded,
uploaded or in the process ofbeing interpreted and uploaded.
Speaker 1 (08:02):
Right.
And so not only were thereactually deaf people at this
shooting and involved in it aswell, but there was, I believe,
in the fatalities.
I think there was an ASLinterpreter in addition to that.
Speaker 2 (08:14):
Yeah, A lot of ASL interpreters are like deep in
the community, myself included.
I have tons of deaf friends butyeah, that is tragic.
Speaker 1 (08:23):
Absolutely tragic.
The shooter was lateridentified as Robert Carr and he
was an army reservist.
And Carr was someone very, veryfamiliar with firearms.
He was actually a firearmsinstructor at the local army
base.
It's terrifying.
Yeah, and he was an employee ofMaine Recycling Corporation.
Speaker 2 (08:41):
A recycling corporation?
Yeah, that's interesting.
Speaker 1 (08:45):
After the violence, I thought he's conducted an
extensive 48 hour manhunt andthat marked one of the deadliest
shootings in the United Statesthis year and definitely the
deadliest shooting in the stateof Maine.
Speaker 2 (08:57):
Ever right.
Ever, and it's a real violence,especially gun violence,
because it's a blue state.
Speaker 1 (09:03):
Well, it is.
Speaker 2 (09:03):
Isn't it a blue state ?
I'm pretty sure it is.
Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 1 (09:08):
There are only two murders in the entire state last
year.
Speaker 2 (09:10):
And this literally just almost came up to 18.
Wow, that's intense.
Speaker 1 (09:16):
With many men and where people harmed and injured.
Speaker 2 (09:19):
That's crazy.
Speaker 1 (09:22):
So, while questions remain over the motivations for
the attack and why thoselocations were targeted,
previous warnings about Carr arestarting to come to light and
raising questions about howauthorities handle the warning
signs and also his access tofirearms.
Speaker 2 (09:39):
What do you think Carr has per?
Speaker 1 (09:40):
usual, the county sheriff's office was contacted
on May 3rd by Carr's family, whosaid that they were concerned
for his wellbeing and that heshared access or had access to
firearms.
Speaker 2 (09:51):
His own family.
Speaker 1 (09:52):
His own family oh my God.
Yeah, actually the documentsshow that Carr's 18 year old son
oh my God Was the first toreport that his father, you know
, was accusing people of talkingabout him since January.
Now he was starting to havetrouble with his hearing as well
, which may be why he wasfamiliar with some of these
folks in the deaf community.
Speaker 2 (10:11):
That's very tragic.
Speaker 1 (10:12):
So the email also alleges that Carr got into an
altercation with three of hisfriends that were also soldiers
in West Point on July 15th.
Carr was accused of pushing oneof the soldiers and making
threats about someone who hadcalled him pedophile and they
were like look.
When his friends talked to himthey said look, knock it off,
(10:34):
because you know you're gonnaget in trouble.
Talking about shooting upplaces and people, and Carr had
actually punched this gentlemaninto the statement and he
mentioned that you know he had abunch of guns and he was gonna
go shoot up the drill center atSACO, which was the Army Reserve
base.
Speaker 2 (10:51):
That is horrible.
I just feel like we need betterpreventative protocols for this
, because this is, you know, alot of the times.
We have so many warning signsbefore these mass shootings.
Like everyone, it's so sad andI just feel like we need to
develop better protocols on howto handle situations like this.
Speaker 1 (11:11):
For sure.
So after speaking with thefamily, the deputy contacted the
third battalion of the 304thtraining group to help Carr to
receive medical attention.
Carr was taken to a psychiatrichospital where he spent two
weeks before being released Nota lot of time to diagnose a
mental problem.
The Army in July said that Carrshould not have weapons and
(11:35):
should not handle ammunition norparticipate in any live fire
activities, after people weresaying he was behaving
erratically.
Speaker 2 (11:43):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (11:45):
In September, an Army Reserve unit that he belonged
to reached out to the sheriff'soffice again and asked for a
wellness check and, according toa soldier, he was expressing
that you know that thereservists might snap and commit
a mass shooting.
Speaker 2 (12:01):
Oh my gosh.
Speaker 1 (12:03):
Now, about two months later.
Speaker 2 (12:04):
What happened with the wellness check?
Speaker 1 (12:06):
They did.
They went out and tried toperform a wellness check and
weren't able to get in touchwith Carr.
Speaker 2 (12:12):
Okay.
Speaker 1 (12:13):
Which a wellness check can be.
You know a lot of differentthings.
They went there, they knockedon the door.
He never came to the door.
They did it a couple of timesand then you know more pressing
things I guess actually happened.
Speaker 2 (12:24):
I called a wellness check on a friend once and
because they were supposed tocall me, and I fell asleep and
then I woke up again and theyhadn't called me.
And it's been three hours and Iwas like, oh, that's weird.
So I tried to call them.
It was like 1 am and I'm likewhat the hell?
And this was someone I wasdating, so that kind of friend.
(12:44):
So I was very concerned.
I was like they should havecalled, you know, and I couldn't
get in touch with them.
I tried our friends in common.
They hadn't heard from them.
So I called a wellness checkWhole time.
They were literally just passedout drunk in their apartment.
Speaker 1 (12:57):
If that were only the problem.
Yeah, when these things happen.
Speaker 2 (13:00):
I know I was.
Speaker 1 (13:02):
But yeah.
So a deputy went out to Card'shome on September 15th and then
again on September 16th, butdidn't see him and repeatedly
tried to knock on the door andget someone to come to the door.
Card never did no.
Whether he was there or not, noone knows.
So the sheriff's office issuedan alert to other law
enforcement agencies about Card,stating that he was armed and
dangerous.
Speaker 2 (13:22):
Yikes.
Speaker 1 (13:23):
The sheriff's office said that this is called a file
19.
So the file 19 alert said, andit's common when law enforcement
is trying to locate a personthat might have some issues.
But they wanna get that out.
There the information, so morepeople can be looking for.
Speaker 2 (13:38):
It's not like a search warrant or not a search
warrant, a warrant of arrest.
Speaker 1 (13:45):
So the file 19 alerts just go to law enforcement, but
it doesn't go as far as awarrant.
This is basically just an alert.
Listen, there might besomething going on here.
Keep your eyes open.
This guy's potentiallydangerous.
He certainly has militarytraining, firearms training.
Speaker 2 (14:01):
So just keep your eyes open.
I wonder why they didn't issuelike a warrant of arrest because
he was making threats oneveryone's lives.
Strange that they wouldn't goand remove his firearms from him
.
Speaker 1 (14:14):
Well, so Robert had been suffering from psychotic
episodes and he was hearingvoices, and you and I discussed
hearing voices as something notnecessarily evil, but something
that's certainly no no, I don'tthink people who hear voices are
evil.
Speaker 2 (14:26):
I do think that, like you know, it can be really
tough to distinguish.
I have worked with communitiesthat you know have had mental
health issues, which includepsychosis and like hearing
voices, and Definitely you knowthe people are not evil, right
right.
Speaker 1 (14:44):
But I think it's but the reactions sometimes can be.
Speaker 2 (14:47):
Yeah, of course, but that's anyone.
It's not as much as the actions, but I just I think what really
distinguishes that group ofpeople is having difficulty
understanding what is real andwhat is, you know, a
hallucination, like ahallucination.
And so you know, anyone that'slike having like consistent
hallucinations probablyshouldn't have firearms of any
(15:09):
sort.
Speaker 1 (15:10):
No doubt about that.
There's absolutely no doubtabout that.
So they did send out thisinformation that he was a
firearms instructor and that hemade threats to shoot up the
National Guard Armory, and thenhe had been committed over the
summer for a couple weeksbecause of an altered mental
health state.
Speaker 2 (15:25):
I just feel like that's enough, that should be
enough.
I hope at some point they putinto law that this is enough to
take someone's firearms away,because no one needs that.
Speaker 1 (15:34):
We'll get into that in just a little bit.
Speaker 2 (15:36):
Oh, okay, sorry, I'm jumping, that's okay.
Speaker 1 (15:38):
But they also said you know, if you locate him,
please use extreme caution, DearGod.
His ex-wife also told thedeputy that Card had picked up
10 to 15 handguns and firearms.
Speaker 2 (15:51):
Where.
Speaker 1 (15:52):
Well, they were actually at his brother's house,
according to her.
Speaker 2 (15:55):
Who needs 10 to 15 handguns and firearms?
Speaker 1 (15:58):
Well, I mean exactly.
That's a great point, but shealso said that she and her son
were planning to stay away fromCard.
Speaker 2 (16:06):
That is terrifying.
I'm glad that they communicated.
They definitely did their duediligence with that, because
communication is definitely thebiggest key, I think, with these
situations, and it seems like alot of people were in
communication with lawenforcement about this.
Speaker 1 (16:24):
So the deputy spoke to Card's unit commander who
confirmed that Card no longerhad any weapons from the reserve
unit with him and the commanderalso advised that he didn't
have access to the area anymore,that all his weapons had been
removed.
Speaker 2 (16:41):
So was he discharged.
Speaker 1 (16:42):
No, he wasn't discharged.
The commander also advised themto back down a bit, saying that
might not be a good idea toforce a contact.
So they canceled the File 6Alert on October 18th, exactly
one week before the massshooting.
Speaker 2 (16:59):
Oh, my God.
Speaker 1 (17:01):
There's an organization called the Violence
Project and it's a nonprofitthat tracks mass shootings,
which is defined as, as we saidbefore, as four or more people
murdered in one event.
But, to be clear, only afraction of the people with
military backgrounds become massshooters.
But military experience issomething.
There's somethingdisproportionate about that,
(17:22):
about the numbers.
Speaker 2 (17:23):
Well, I think one reason is that military and
veterans often don't have accessto mental health services or
see it in a way that is frownedupon.
Speaker 1 (17:37):
Well, sure, because if you are in the military or
somehow related to the militaryand you show that sort of a
problem, it would reduce, itmight get you kicked out of the
military.
Yeah, james Densley, theco-founder of the Violence
Project, says what we all knowthat most military personnel
(17:59):
have successful lives aftertheir service and that we're
very grateful for thecontribution that they may.
Speaker 2 (18:05):
Absolutely.
However, I do think that thereneeds to be, like, enough access
to mental health servicesbecause, especially like if
you're being deployed or I meanI feel like a lot of military
even if they're not deployed orin high stress situations, and
so you know, I think that thereshould be less of a stigma
around mental health servicesfor those who are in the
(18:27):
military or work for themilitary, because it's not just
PTSD, you know, it's depression,it's anxiety and like I don't
necessarily think that if youhave any of those that you
should have your weapons takenaway and I'm not sure of the
protocols for the military forthat but I think that you know,
having access to good mentalhealth services and someone to
(18:49):
discuss like your emotionalwell-being with is super
important in any situation,especially high stress
situations.
Speaker 1 (18:58):
A CBS news analysis of the data shows that 26% of
mass shootings over the last sixdecades have had military
service or military training intheir background.
That's high compared to thegeneral US adult population,
which is like 7%.
So fewer than one in 10 peoplehas military background,
(19:19):
according to the US CensusBureau.
Speaker 2 (19:21):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (19:22):
Not all of them were deployed.
Some of them actually, you know, just went through basic
training, but they do have somekind of a through line, a
military connection in thosehistories.
Denzli said that we actuallyhave 14 or 15 mass shooters in
our database that were actuallymarksmen or snipers in the
military.
Speaker 2 (19:41):
That's very intense.
Speaker 1 (19:43):
Because you know, there's some skills that they're
learned in the military whichlend themselves to mass
shootings and that sort of thing.
Speaker 2 (19:48):
Wow, that's so scary.
Speaker 1 (19:50):
It's important to remember, though, that studies
reveal there's never just onereason for someone committing
one of these violence acts.
Often, there are underlyingmental health concerns as well.
According to the analysis.
Speaker 2 (20:03):
Well, I think that is the main reason.
Right Is a mental health issue.
Speaker 1 (20:07):
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:09):
Or like a breakdown, or you know, high stress mixed
with mental health, because Idon't think anyone who is doing
well whatever commit like a massmurder.
Speaker 1 (20:22):
No, absolutely.
You know what I mean, so I dothink that's the common thread.
Right.
Speaker 2 (20:27):
And I feel like you know the best way to prevent
that is like by requiring orhighly encouraging for everyone,
especially those in themilitary, to seek out mental
health services, and making thataccessible for everyone.
Speaker 1 (20:38):
For sure.
According to Denzli, people inthe military often deal with
behavioral challenges and mentalhealth problems.
In some cases, that wasactually the reason why they
were discharged from themilitary and it seems to be that
there's.
An integration back intocivilian life can be difficult
at some times and havingstruggling, trying to piece
their life back together.
I think it's that mix which isprobably what the underpinning
(21:04):
of some of these attacks are.
I'm curious Do you remember theguy that kidnapped the girl
from her house and killed herparents and hit her on the-?
Speaker 2 (21:16):
Oh yeah, yep.
Speaker 1 (21:18):
So that we discussed?
Yeah, that we discussed.
So if you remembered that, doyou recall?
He tried to get into theMarines, yeah, but he was kicked
out of Marines and kind offloundered and kind of struggled
ever since then, leading tothat act.
So it's horrible.
Speaker 2 (21:37):
Yeah, it really truly is horrible, but I feel like
maybe and I'm not sure if thereis such a thing, but it reminds
me of kind of like adultprotective services and how
people in certain situationswhether it be homelessness,
mental health, like severemental health issues or
(21:57):
developmental delays people ingroup homes, like all different
types of addiction, alldifferent types of situations,
have case managers.
And so I'm curious if those thatare discharged or leave even
just leave voluntarily themilitary, if they have something
similar to that like a casemanager that helps them, like
re-.
Speaker 1 (22:16):
Acclimate them to society.
Speaker 2 (22:18):
Yeah, and to society?
Do they have that?
Do you know?
Speaker 1 (22:20):
I don't know, but I think that's a great idea, I'm
curious and they probably do.
They probably do.
Speaker 2 (22:24):
I'm curious though, because it seems like they don't
, because this seems like itwould come up.
Speaker 1 (22:31):
Well, if you'll notice like there's an awful
high percentage also of peoplethat are homeless, that have
former military training as well, yes, it's very, very sad.
It is, it is, and you know Imean, it's a terrible thing.
My father was a World War IIveteran your grandfather and
once in a while he would, in themiddle of the night, have PTSD
(22:53):
and scream and yell and stufflike that, which, as a child, is
terrifying, you know, and Iwould always, always trying to
protect my mother, I would burstinto their bedroom.
Speaker 2 (23:05):
That's so sweet.
Speaker 1 (23:06):
Like a seven year old ninja of some sort Very
protective, very protective Forseven.
That's right for seven and youknow she would be there trying
to.
She's saying it's okay, youknow fun and I would ask him
sometime.
He never wanted to talk aboutit and I think all too often
that they deal and see thingsthat are just so far beyond what
normal people have to deal withmentally.
Speaker 2 (23:28):
At least people in our country.
Speaker 1 (23:30):
Right, well, yeah right, but they're so far beyond
the normal everydayinteractions that sometimes they
just can't.
Speaker 2 (23:38):
It's very traumatic.
Speaker 1 (23:39):
That's what I mean.
Speaker 2 (23:40):
But, like my thing is that oftentimes, like there are
tools that you know mentalhealth professionals can you
know help people with and helpimplement them into their
everyday routines that reallydrastically help these
situations, but for some reasonthere's such a stigma about it.
In our society, not just themilitary, but probably even more
(24:02):
so the military, but in oursociety in general, and I really
think it's really important tobreak this down, because we
would be a healthier, happiersociety if people had access to
mental health services.
Speaker 1 (24:15):
I agree, I agree and I'm a proponent of basically we
spend so much money and send somuch money all over the world
for stupid things.
Or we send money to doridiculous studies on how a cow
belching actually affects theozone layer Just ridiculous
things, right?
I think a baseline.
Even if you don't wanna givepeople everyone healthcare in
(24:38):
this country, I think mentalhealth care should be, at the
very least, something thateveryone should have access to,
honestly.
And the thing about themilitary folks is they do?
Speaker 2 (24:47):
They definitely need it.
Speaker 1 (24:48):
Well and they do have access but like, for example,
you can go to the VeteransAdministration if you're a
veteran and they do have mentalhealth people that work there.
Now the problem I talked to amilitary person not long ago and
there's a real if they've seena lot of violence and so on,
there's a distrust sometimes ofthe authorities and that sort of
(25:08):
thing for some reason, and thelast thing they wanna do is go
to some place that mightactually confine them because of
some of the visions and some ofthe PTSD things that they're
experiencing.
So it can be.
Speaker 2 (25:22):
So maybe not veteran affairs, then Maybe like a
non-profit focused on mentalhealth services for people in
the military that's separateentirely from the government
because therapists just regularcounselors, social workers,
therapists, they're not gonnaconfine you.
They're just there to workthrough things with you, as long
as you're not thinking abouthurting yourself or hurting
(25:44):
other people.
Speaker 1 (25:45):
Right, absolutely, absolutely so, Robert Card.
He was only 40 and he wasdiscovered near the river about
10 miles away from the communityof Lewiston that he shot up
from a self-inflicted gunshotwound.
He was found inside of a boxtrailer sitting in an overflow
(26:07):
parking in the main recyclingcorporation where he worked and
where he was laid off from.
Speaker 2 (26:12):
Wow.
Speaker 1 (26:13):
Card had, as I said, been recently fired from the
recycling center.
A law enforcement official toldCNN Some of those trailers were
locked and some of the trailersaren't.
He was found inside one of theboxes that had been unlocked
from the outside.
Two firearms were foundalongside Card's body.
Speaker 2 (26:30):
That's very sad.
Speaker 1 (26:31):
And he was wearing the same T-shirt that he was
wearing on Wednesday night whenthe shooting occurred, so it's
unclear as to when he took hislife, but it could have been
directly after the shooting.
The main governor, janet Mills,said that she, like others, was
relieved that the manhunt wasover and the fear was over for
the community.
Speaker 2 (26:51):
Although the fear never leaves right, Especially
if you're immediate communitybecomes like the target of mass
shooting.
Like I know, I personally, ifI'm ever out in like a big crowd
, I get nervous.
For example, my girlfriend andI went to the movie theaters the
other day.
A man walked in with a backpackand was like looking around,
(27:14):
not taking a seat, and weliterally were terrified.
We literally lost like fiveminutes of movie.
He walked back out and then wewere even scared, like more
scared, and I was like why washe in here with this backpack?
Like I don't understand.
He didn't even sit down.
We literally, like you know,we're totally distracted from
the movie and it's just like,yeah, it's really sad because
you know I look around sometimesand if there's a loud noise,
(27:37):
like everyone like goes down alittle bit until they realize oh
, it's okay, it's okay.
It's very slight but you know, Ithink like our entire community
, as the United States ofAmerica, is traumatized by these
shootings.
Speaker 1 (27:50):
Well, sure, because per capita we have more than any
place else on the planet.
Speaker 2 (27:55):
It's very sad.
I just I really hope that youknow we figure out a way out of
this because it's it's tough.
It's tough to think like, oh,yeah, I want to bring children
into this.
Like, yeah, I want to send mychildren to school.
That's scary, that's so scary,it's even scary.
Sometimes I work in the schoolsLike I get nervous too.
I was involved with thelockdown not too long ago.
(28:17):
You remember, like, and therewas a student who did bring in a
gun and there was no shooting.
But you know it's traumatizing.
And I remember after that therewas a lockdown, maybe like four
months later at a differentschool, and I was working in the
elementary school that time andthat wasn't the same school, it
was the other school was at ahigh school level.
(28:38):
The student who did bring a gunbut I was working at the
elementary school level and youknow the children, they know you
know like we're like okay,we're going to have a lockdown
in case a stranger comes in.
They're like oh, like, in casesomeone comes to try to kill us
with a gun.
Speaker 1 (28:55):
Oh my.
Speaker 2 (28:55):
God, the kids, the kids seven and eight.
They know and I'm not sayingthey shouldn't know, because you
know you do want to like letthem know what's going on in the
world.
I understand that and that'show I would choose to parent as
well.
But it is truly heartbreakingand like, during the lockdown, I
found myself like breathingheavy, like I was like anxious,
you know, like it was a littletriggering.
(29:15):
I looked over at one of theother people that was working,
like one of the other adults inthe room, and she was literally
in tears, like she was like thisis so scary, it's so sad, you
know.
And then they're like okay,thanks for practicing the drill,
go back to school.
Like, and it's just like youwant to just like hug these
little kids.
Because it's like, are youkidding?
Like, and the kids, you knowthey're very resilient and they
(29:37):
just absorb everything.
So they're just like okay, cool, we're done.
And like the adults are shakenfor the rest of the day.
Speaker 1 (29:43):
Well, but but is that that's partly part of their
wiring and partly because of thefact that they don't really
understand what could possiblyhappen?
Right?
I don't think they kind ofconceptually do, but they don't
really think it's going to.
Speaker 2 (29:57):
Right, maybe I'm not sure, it's just, it's so strange
.
Speaker 1 (30:00):
And adults.
Unfortunately, we're all tooaware that it can happen.
Speaker 2 (30:02):
Yeah, because we see it every five seconds on our
like news feed.
Speaker 1 (30:06):
Absolutely so, and it's interesting.
The community has kind ofrallied around.
They were able to haveHalloween, although I'm sure
people were still a littlenervous about the whole thing.
But he had been found beforeHalloween.
So the community had, you know,bad Halloween.
Look, a football team had a.
You know a moment of silencefor all those people that were
(30:26):
lost.
Speaker 2 (30:27):
That's good.
Speaker 1 (30:28):
And a guy I work for.
Actually his son plays in ayouth hockey organization in
Lewiston.
Speaker 2 (30:35):
Oh, wow.
Speaker 1 (30:36):
At the time of the shooting.
He was actually.
They have a little thing wherethey teach little kids how to
skate and how to play hockey.
He was actually in the arena,which isn't too far from the
bowling alley.
Speaker 2 (30:45):
That's so scary yeah and it's terrifying.
Speaker 1 (30:47):
He couldn't go home because it was really close to
the shooting, so he couldn'tactually go home.
Speaker 2 (30:51):
And then I mean, that must have been so terrifying
for your friend.
Speaker 1 (30:56):
Right, oh for sure.
Speaker 2 (30:58):
And then for your friend's son, who was there with
all the children, like and he'spicturing, you know, like, okay
, if this guy comes in here,what am I gonna do?
Right right which kids am Igonna help?
How sad is that.
Which kids am I gonna grab?
Speaker 1 (31:10):
right, they're, actually it's McGeagy's which
was the bar when he came in andstarted firing.
They're at the bowling alley,rather one, because not only was
it, you know, not only was itthe the, you know, the Cornhole
tournament for the deafcommunity there, but there's
also like a child's bowlingnight going on and you know, one
of the adults Was shepherdingthe kids out of the back of the
(31:33):
building and unfortunately hewas.
He was shot and killed sodisturbing, oh it is it's kids?
Speaker 2 (31:38):
were able to get out.
Speaker 1 (31:39):
Yes, that's great, that is great.
Speaker 2 (31:42):
That's great, you know, and it's interesting
because I think a lot of thetimes, like you think, like, oh,
like I would want to do this inthis situation and those people
are so important, but like it'salso just so sad to see like
those good people that are likewilling to help their
communities lose their livesover someone who's deranged.
Speaker 1 (32:00):
The, the local hockey team actually had just, I think
was on Thursday of last week,they had a game and they
actually they, they had, theyhad this kind of ceremony and
they had a Hockey jersey broughtout with the number 18 on it,
which was the number peoplekilled and as a fundraiser and
(32:21):
so on.
So, yeah, it's, it's amazingthat this happens so often and
it's equally as amazing howresilient and how Comforting
communities can be, especiallylike this.
Lewiston is a town of 30,000people.
It's not gigantic, no, but it'sstill the second largest city
in all of Maine, right, yeah,that's so, um, but you know, I'm
sure they never thought in amillion years they would have to
(32:43):
be dealing with this now.
Speaker 2 (32:44):
I mean, I wonder when .
The last mass shooting therewas probably years and years ago
.
Speaker 1 (32:48):
If yeah, who knows?
Speaker 2 (32:49):
I mean I'm sure there was one, the average 22 murders
in a year.
So so not a lot.
Speaker 1 (32:54):
Never have been Something of that scale, is
something that's probably not.
Speaker 2 (32:59):
I mean, that is just so tragic.
Speaker 1 (33:02):
Right, so you'd mentioned something earlier and
Maine is actually known as ayellow flag state and it's the
only one of its kind in thenation.
The law was enacted in 2020 andco-sponsored by Republican
State Senator Lisa Kime.
By contrast, massachusetts hasa red flag law.
I was trying to understand thedifference between the two
(33:23):
things to better get a grasp onhow enforcement have law
enforcement handles Situationslike this.
Massachusetts allows relativesor roommates to apply for a
court order if they believe agun owner Is a violent threat.
If the judge approves the order, the gun odor must Temporarily
surrender their guns and licensefor their guns.
Speaker 2 (33:45):
That's great.
Speaker 1 (33:47):
This can be appealed and they can get their guns back
.
Now, maine is a so-calledyellow flag state and it has a
few extra steps in the middle.
So someone who's suspected ofgun owners that isn't, you know,
an imminent threat, whetherthat be a close relative, you
know, or whatever Can reportthis to the local police and
then the local law enforcementcan handle it by taking the
(34:09):
person into protective custody.
Which they did not do whichthey did not do and I wonder why
well, they'd never done itbefore this.
Speaker 2 (34:17):
This was an active recent you said 2020, okay, okay
.
Speaker 1 (34:21):
So they put the person in protective custody to
get a mental health evaluation.
Speaker 2 (34:25):
It's a great idea and then.
Speaker 1 (34:27):
But then they have to go back to the court to obtain
on order to confiscate the gunstemporarily.
Then, and only then can a courtorder Do you temporarily
suspend the gun license andremove the guns?
Speaker 2 (34:39):
So is the person who is deemed possibly a threat.
Are they in the mental hospitalthe entire time while they're
waiting for that, or no?
Speaker 1 (34:49):
depends.
Depends on what they find right, because a lot of people can
make Claims right and you wouldhope that no one would do this
maliciously, just to yeah, butI'm sure it happens.
Yeah, but it happens right ofcourse.
So in my opinion, okay.
So Maine has the extra steps inthe middle.
So so to be clear, and I'm not,I don't, I've.
(35:10):
I grew up in Pennsylvania andyou know my parents, my father,
we went deer hunting, on thatsort of thing and there was a
necessity for us because of thatperiod of time we needed we did
to make a.
You know, the inflation wasvery high and that sort of thing
, and we needed to somehow Forgethe gap between what we had and
what we had to spend, right.
So deer hunting and that sortof thing and venison Kind of
(35:31):
helped us do just that and youate it.
Yeah, oh, that makes sense, youknow we didn't, we didn't keep
the racks, we gave this way andall this kind of stuff, but it
was a necessity.
We hunted and, because we hadto, to eat exactly that makes
sense.
I don't own guns, right, Ididn't have guns around children
because that my personalopinion was that it's unsafe.
Well, it can be unsafedepending on how you do it.
(35:51):
There's some people that it cando it very well if they're
locked away.
Speaker 2 (35:55):
They're locked away and that's sort of appropriate
things like right a lot ofsafeguarding because, like I
mean, having a gun in the Houseis an inherent risk.
So there are statistics thatprove, having a gun in the house
, you will.
I mean you have a higher rateof you know your child dying by
accidental firing.
Speaker 1 (36:15):
That may well be so, but but, like I said, we didn't
have access to the guns Unlesswe were going hunting.
They weren't around the house,they were locked up somewhere.
I never looked for him, I neverwanted to see him.
Speaker 2 (36:25):
But what if you had?
You know what I mean kids are,kids are my father was really
serious about it.
He, he but imagine if I hadwanted to find.
You know what I mean.
Like if I had a child wanted tofind the gun, I would find it
Well.
Speaker 1 (36:37):
I know they were locked away.
It wasn't something just layingaround, it was locked away.
I didn't know how to pick alock, certainly, so you know.
But but and my father was very,very serious about this is what
it is for, it's not a toy.
If you're ever at someone'shouse and they produce a gun,
you walk the hell out of there.
And I told I told your brotherthat as well if any of his
friends actually produced a gun,then call me, and I don't know,
(36:58):
I'll come and get you.
But yeah, you told me to, yeah,and you too so, but it's so
much more likely that a boywould you know.
Speaker 2 (37:04):
Yeah, but like if young girls are hanging out with
little boys right, right, butso so I'm.
Speaker 1 (37:11):
If you're a hunter in and you and you want to hunt
and you want to have you knowguns, you know that's, that's,
that's great, right.
If you don't like guns anddon't want to have me run your
children, that's great too.
Speaker 2 (37:21):
It's all a personal choice, yeah and I'm not one, as
I was safe with it.
Speaker 1 (37:25):
I was always just safe with it, but I'm not one to
want to go in and grabeveryone's guns right, Because I
think that's that could lead totwo issues as well.
Speaker 2 (37:33):
I personally have other opinions.
I do not think that guns arenecessary for our nation,
especially the Machine guns.
I think those are actuallyridiculous and it's disturbing
so that anyone who Doesn't haveany training can go and pick one
up and someone who just wantsit because they think they're
(37:55):
cool can go Pick up somethingthat can kill hundreds of people
.
It's disgusting to me.
Speaker 1 (38:02):
So so.
So a machine gun and an AR-15,those are two different things.
Oh, they're different, they'redifferent.
I like a submachine orsomething like that fires
literally Sony more rounds,whereas an AR-15 is, it's a.
Every time you pull the trigger, there's a, you know there's a,
there's a shot.
Now you can add bump stocks andI don't want to get into this
(38:22):
whole thing, but it's, it's so.
The word AR doesn't mean aassault rifle.
It's not an assault rifle perse.
It is.
It is a powerful gun, it canfire a lot of rounds quickly,
but but it's not technically amachine gun, just to make that
clear.
That is helpful, because Ididn't know right, but if
someone like you said if someonewants to do harm as someone
(38:44):
else, it doesn't matter if theyhave a Six shooting pistol or a
knife or whatever.
If they want to do harm, thenthey can do that.
Now the thing about rifles likethis gentleman had, I believe
is an AR-15 is that the, theCiclical rate, the amount of
exactly you can fire it's somuch higher than something like
that.
Speaker 2 (39:04):
I mean, and when we're talking about, like, mass
shootings, I think we often goto how many people were killed.
Numbers, right, we want to likelook at numbers, like
statistically, that's just likesure you know what we're
thinking about.
But we have to remember thateach Person that died was a
person who their, their loss andtheir death impacts Hundreds of
(39:29):
people, their family, theirpeople, their community.
You know what I mean.
Like I mean, this has impactedso many people we can't even
count the number.
And so if we could save just onelife by taking away all of that
category of like so if we could, you know, just save a few
(39:51):
lives by not having access, openaccess to just anyone who wants
these.
I mean it's priceless.
You know what I mean.
Like it's literally pricelessbecause just one less person who
isn't dead, you can't put aprice on it.
You know what I mean.
Like you really can't.
Like it's so, so important.
Speaker 1 (40:13):
Right when you look at the numbers.
The numbers show that fiveyears since the red flag law was
implemented in Massachusetts,it's only been used 57 times.
Of those 57 times, 38 emergencyorders have been issued and
suspended gun licensetemporarily that were taken from
the potentially dangerousindividuals.
(40:34):
Still, a gun control advocateslike Margaret Groban from the
main gun safety coalition saysher red flag law is a much
better model than what they havein Maine right now.
We're the only state in thecountry she said it has a yellow
flag law and I'd like to saythat we are the outlier, not the
model.
The yellow places way too manyburdens on the people trying to
(40:57):
make sure people are safe.
If the goal is to get firearmsaway quickly out of the hands of
people who could potentially bedangerous, then why not go all
the way and have a red flag law?
Speaker 2 (41:08):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (41:10):
So, given the seemingly low numbers in
Massachusetts that use the redflag law, the president of the
Massachusetts chief of policeassociation says it's likely
that more of the publicinformation on the law would
lead to its use.
Perhaps it's a public servicecampaign that comes out of this
tragedy in Maine and perhapsthat could help Massachusetts
citizens as well as citizens ofMaine, said chief Thomas W
(41:33):
Fowler.
Speaker 2 (41:34):
So what other states have the red flag law?
So I did take a break to lookit up and we have figured out
that there are red flag laws,also known as risk based gun
removal laws, also known asextreme risk protection orders,
currently being served inColorado, Maryland,
(41:56):
Massachusetts, Michigan,Minnesota, Nevada, New Jersey,
New York, Oregon, Rhode Island,Vermont, and Washington and the
District of Columbia.
Speaker 1 (42:08):
So how many is that?
Speaker 2 (42:09):
Let's see One, two, three, four, five, six, seven,
eight, nine, 10, 11, 12, 13.
Speaker 1 (42:17):
13.
Speaker 2 (42:19):
So they do have other similar things in New Mexico,
virginia, illinois, hawaii,california, delaware, florida,
connecticut and Indiana.
So that's 21 states in theDistrict of Columbia that have
enacted some form of red flaglaw, which is low, it is Very
(42:42):
low.
It's less than half.
Speaker 1 (42:45):
It is low, but given the fact of what's happening, I
think two things.
I think that most states, ifnot all states, should have a
red flag law in place.
Speaker 2 (42:56):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (42:57):
And I also think that every state in the union should
have an augmented mental healthpolicy.
Speaker 2 (43:03):
Absolutely.
Speaker 1 (43:05):
Because, as we said before, the guns aren't
necessarily.
The guns are certainly a partof it, but the mental health
portion of the problem is thething.
But the biggest part, I think,is the fact that so many people
are hurting in the United States, so many people have underlying
mental health problems, and ifwe really wanna solve this and I
(43:27):
think everyone really doesright- I hope so.
I hope so too.
Speaker 2 (43:31):
Sometimes it seems like that's not the case, though
.
Speaker 1 (43:34):
Absolutely so.
But if that is indeed the case,then I think that our
legislators, I think that thepresident of the United States,
the Congress, the Senate andeveryone else should honestly
really start thinking about theproblems.
Not only gun violence, right,but also suicide, also physical
(43:56):
violence or rape and those kindsof things.
Rape is a huge issue too, it'sall interrelated to people that
have problems with mental healthproblems.
Speaker 2 (44:06):
Right, I agree.
Mental health is like literallyone of the worst issues that
we've ever seen globally even.
And it's just.
It's so sad because there areways to treat this.
You know what I mean.
We have options to help curbthese horrible negative
situations happening.
Speaker 1 (44:27):
For sure.
For sure, because I mean, let'sface it, how many times have
you seen when someone is beingsentenced for murder or for a
mass murder or something likethat, how many times have you
seen the defendant go?
If I could only go back in timeand not do that, if I could
only take it back, maybe theselaws that just temporarily take
(44:49):
these people into protectivecustody for their own safety as
well as others, and then lookand see is this someone that
should?
Speaker 2 (44:57):
or help them, or help them get back to a better place
.
My thing is is that if peopleare not of the sound mind to
have a gun, if they're not astable person.
No one's community needs that.
No one needs that.
You know what I mean.
Like we have to protect thecommunity above individuals and
(45:19):
their rights if they aren't ableto make sound judgment with
those rights.
Speaker 1 (45:25):
For sure.
Do you know what I mean?
Absolutely.
There are some people, soobviously criminals, I think,
should perpetually, not, ever beallowed to.
Speaker 2 (45:35):
I think it depends on the crime.
Speaker 1 (45:37):
Well, yes, violent criminals.
Speaker 2 (45:38):
Violent criminals should never have access to
weapons.
Exactly Right?
Yeah, absolutely not.
Speaker 1 (45:43):
So anyways, but yes, there's a multi-pronged approach
to it.
Certainly, these laws, I think,are something beneficial to
look at in every state.
Certainly, I think the wholemental health problem in the
United States is somethingsolvable, is something that we
should all have access to,because everyone, every once in
a while, needs a little bit ofhelp, right?
Speaker 2 (46:04):
And also everyone can benefit from these.
I think we really need todestigmatize mental health
services, therapy, counseling,like having any mental health
neurodivergence, because havinganxiety does not make you crazy.
That's my thing.
I think a lot of people thinkthat, having any sort of mental
health diagnosis, you shouldn'tbe allowed to do this, that or
(46:27):
whatever.
That's not true.
There are levels, there aretiers to if you're a threat or
not, and my anxiety does notmake me a threat, but I think
that everyone can benefit fromtherapy and if you want therapy,
I totally think that you shouldget that.
And I just want to mention howprofoundly sorry we are to the
(46:50):
family members of those who lostloved ones in this mass
shooting, and everyone deservesto feel safe in their
communities.
Speaker 1 (46:59):
Absolutely and far too many times, I think people
think that asking for help is asign of weakness.
Speaker 2 (47:05):
It's not.
Speaker 1 (47:06):
But honestly, if you're really looking at it from
the right way, asking for helpis actually a sign of strength.
Speaker 2 (47:13):
It is and love and love for your community, love
for yourself.
Speaker 1 (47:18):
So, absolutely so.
This was a very, this was aterrible situation and it's
certainly something that we needto find a handle on and get
this solved.
And for all those people thatlost loved ones in that shooting
and any mass shooting, in everymass shooting, our heart is
with you.
Speaker 2 (47:37):
Absolutely Follow the show on whatever streaming site
you're listening on.
Speaker 1 (47:42):
And remember.
All of the source material willbe available in the show notes.
Speaker 2 (47:47):
And follow us on Instagram at what we lose in the
shadows and let us know if youwant to hear a specific case or
if you just want to give us somefeedback.
Ok, join us in the shadows nextTuesday.
Bye.
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