February 28, 2024 • 49 mins
This episode is dedicated to the memory of the late Abimbola Ogubanjo, former head of the Nigerian Stock Exchange and an esteemed figure in Nigerian corporate law, who died in a helicopter crash in California on February 9. The crash also claimed the lives of the CEO of Access Holdings, Herbert Wigwe, his wife, and son. Their legacy continues to resonate around the world.
Our conversation with Abi, a pivotal force in Nigeria's legal landscape, sheds light on the transformation of the Nigerian Stock Exchange and the evolving specialization within the legal profession. Abi's unique journey from banking to becoming a cornerstone in Nigeria's oldest indigenous law firm is an odyssey that mirrors the country's own legal metamorphosis.
The narrative then shifts to the frontlines of Nigeria's capital market, where the digital revolution is making waves. We peel back the layers of MTN's digital IPO success and scrutinize the strategies that could magnetize foreign investment to Nigeria. Join us in the conversation about infrastructure, foreign exchange stabilization, and the pivotal question of privatization.
As we cast our gaze towards Nigeria's horizon, we consider the unmined potential of Nigeria's youthful populace and the fintech sector's explosive growth. We explore the profound link between taxation, quality governance, and the social contract that underpins Nigeria's society's fabric. Abi's conversation not only covers the intersections of political stability and economic sustainability, but he also shares a deeply personal crusade against cervical cancer, reminding us that behind every statistic, there's a human story waiting to be told.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Moronke (00:00):
Our hearts are heavy as we extend our deepest
condolences to the family ofAbimbala Ogubanjo, or Abby as he
was known to his friends.
A visionary and remarkableguest on our podcast what's
Going On Eyes on Africa and theCaribbean, abby's untimely
passing is a profound loss andour thoughts are with his loved
(00:23):
ones during this difficult time.
We also express condolences tothe family of Herbert Wigway,
the CEO of Access Bank, whoperished along with his wife and
son on that fateful day inCalifornia, February 9.
In memory of Abby's vibrantspirit, we invite you to revisit
(00:45):
the insightful episode heshared with us as we celebrate
his talents and dedication toadvancing Nigeria.
Hello and welcome to What'sGoing On?
Eyes on Africa and theCaribbean.
grace (00:59):
Join us as we follow social and economic development
issues in and around Africa andthe Caribbean.
If it relates to Africa, theCaribbean and the people of the
African diaspora, we'll talkabout it.
What's going on?
Eyes on Africa and theCaribbean wants you to stay
connected to the people andplaces that you love, so join us
(01:20):
.
Moronke (01:21):
Where are your hosts?
Moronke Oshin-Martin and GraceOcean?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (01:25):
Come on, guys.
Moronke (01:45):
As the COVID-19 pandemic continues to bat our
economies worldwide, peoplearound the world are reassessing
the state of affairs and theircountry's well-being.
Mr Abimbola Ogubanjo, the headof Nigerian Exchange Limited,
ngx, hosted the first annual NGXCapital Markets Conference that
brought together leadingpolicymakers, financial experts,
(02:08):
business leaders, investors,international development
partners and regulators todiscuss ways to increase the
collaboration among key playersin the nation's economy in order
to drive productive investmentsthat would accelerate an
elevated and digitized capitalmarket.
Today, I have the pleasure oftalking to Mr Abimbola Ogubanjo,
(02:33):
also known as Abbi.
To his friends, abbi recentlyengineered and oversaw the
transition of the 60-year-oldNigerian Stock Exchange, making
it what it is today.
Welcome, abbi, to what's GoingOn.
I'm Izon.
Afrika and the Caribbean.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (02:52):
Thank you.
Moronke (02:54):
You're a second-generation leader and
lawyer in Nigeria's oldestindigenous law firm.
How do you feel about theprofession in Nigeria and its
place in the world of corporatelaw and litigation?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (03:11):
Well, I started practicing law in 1990.
Actually, law is my seconddegree.
I studied businessadministration as my first
degree and I worked briefly inbanking Chase Manhattan Bank.
Moronke (03:30):
Oh, so you're kind of like an American at heart too.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (03:34):
Correct, correct, correct.
My first life was as a studentof a US University in
Switzerland, where I studiedbusiness administration OK, and
I returned to Nigeria and Iworked in Chase Manhattan Bank
for a couple of years threeyears before I returned to the
(03:57):
UK to study law OK, and I'vebeen practicing law ever since I
graduated from the Nigerian LawSchool in 1990.
And one thing I'll givecorporate lawyers is that we
have a overview of the economy.
(04:17):
So no matter which area youspecialize in, in practice you
tend to have a general knowledgeof bits and pieces of every
aspect of the economy.
That's one of the benefits ofbeing a corporate lawyer, and I
found that since I startedpracticing, that law in Nigeria
(04:42):
is being getting to be a veryspecialized area.
So you're not.
When I first started out, wedidn't have specialists, but now
, with incursion into theprofession by foreign law firms,
you're getting to see thatlawyers are beginning to
specialize in areas likeshipping, construction law,
(05:08):
infrastructure, banking, finance, these things, and so this
wasn't the order of the day whenI started practicing law.
So that's one of the changesthat I've seen in the legal
profession, but unfortunately Ican only speak for the corporate
law side.
(05:29):
I was a litigator when I firststarted out practicing, because
I actually was doing a lot ofshipping law in my early, early
years.
I did that for two, three years.
Then I became slightlydisenchanted and a bit
frustrated with the slow pace ofthe legal system Let me put it
(05:49):
that way of the judicial system.
It takes you ages to get adecision and so I got frustrated
with that and I left shippingand I started focusing on
commercial and corporatepractice.
But as we see practice today,I'm seeing that law firms are
getting bigger, theirpartnerships, their
(06:12):
consolidations, and I foreseethat firms are going to be
bigger in the future.
There's going to be moreconsolidations as the founders
of those firms begin to retire.
So folks like myself who areapproaching retirement age will
(06:36):
soon be thinking about how topass on the baton, bearing in
mind that the law firm which Imanage is currently a limited
partnership which is run bymyself.
It's a family law firm, butit's unsustainable as a family
law firm Because I have nooffspring or relatives who are,
(06:59):
I could say are, part ofbusiness.
So ultimately we have to thinkabout opening it up into either
a business combination and anyform of arrangement that enables
it to sustain itself in thelong run.
Moronke (07:18):
So you talked earlier about law now being very
specialized.
Is that for you a good thing,or is it a bad thing?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (07:28):
Well, you know you're still going to have
the general practitioner, a manwho can, who professes to be a
divorce lawyer, he professes tobe a shipping lawyer, professes
to be a banker, a banking lawyer.
He wants to just do everything.
But because of the demands ofthe consumer, of the clients.
(07:52):
Today, the demands are much,much higher from the legal
practitioner that you'll findthat a general practitioner will
find him or herself strugglingto meet up with the client's
demands, particularly when timeis so, so, so important for the
(08:14):
clients.
So if a client contacts youfrom New York and he says, abbey
, I need that information withinthe next three, four hours to
turn it around, you don't havethe luxury of time to start
trying to learn that particularaspect of law that that client
(08:34):
wants.
What you need to do is to sayall right, I've heard you, tom,
I'm going to give it to mypartner, who is a specialist in
employment, and that lawyer willlook at it and will turn it
around in three or four hours.
So I think that's the benefitspecialization brings about
efficiency and just generalknowledge.
Moronke (08:56):
I think, using the example that you use when we
talk about, especially here inthe US, when we talk about
looking for a lawyer, we want,if it's a divorce lawyer, we
want a divorce lawyer and I wantto hear that you have X number
of years' experience in thatfield or if it's an employment
lawyer or an immigration lawyer.
(09:16):
The notion of going to ageneral practitioner sounds so
strange to me.
But you're saying that that'sstill where it is now in Nigeria
, or is that changing too?
The other question behind thatis so, with your firm, are you
(09:37):
going to be thinking about amerger with another firm?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (09:42):
Okay.
So, like I said, we are tendingtowards moving to specialized
practices.
What we do not have yet areboutique specialized practices.
So, you know, in the UK and theWest, you find that there's
some firms that are justgenerally known for special
(10:06):
practices.
So if I say, for example, aboutique law firm in Germany
that is known solely for tax orjust solely for employment, we
haven't gotten to that stage.
We are at a stage where you havea corporate law firm that has
different multidisciplinaryfocus, you have a section that
(10:31):
deals with litigation, you havedepartments and partners that
focus on specialized areas ofpractice.
So we are gradually moving awayfrom the general practitioner,
which is what we used to dopreviously.
As we approach 2022, I amseeing more consolidations of
law firms because of the factthat everybody is trying to
(10:54):
specialize.
You are trying to get the bestof every aspect of practice as
we go forward at Criso Gobanjo,yes, we'll be looking at the
consolidation.
We'll be looking at thepossibility of a merger or even
vertical integrations, dependingon how we see the market at the
(11:15):
time.
Moronke (11:15):
Okay, and how are women doing in this field?
Are they breaking into the sameextent that we see in the West?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (11:22):
Yes, women are doing very, very well,
especially in the corporateworld.
You are finding that, forexample, in the banking industry
today you are finding that youhave, I think about four women
or three women who are CEOs ofthe top tier one banks in
(11:43):
Nigeria today.
So that's about four women outof, I would say I think about
seven tier one banks and thereare four of them that are headed
by women in the bankingindustry.
So, yes, women are doing very,very well, especially in law as
well, where you didn't have manysenior advocates.
(12:05):
When I say senior advocates, inEngland they call them Queen's
Council.
I don't think you have thatcategory of in the US now, in
the US, but in England they callthem Queen's Council and you're
having more and more of Queen'sCouncil.
The equivalent here in Nigeriais called senior advocates and
(12:27):
they're pointing a number ofthem, a lot of career women who
in practice, also are not.
Moronke (12:31):
So are these young women, or are these middle
career women?
What are we talking about?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (12:37):
We're talking about ladies in the mid
40s, 50s.
Oh yes, they're doing very well.
They're doing very well, but ofcourse that is in the corporate
law side.
You're finding that inlitigation can still be a bit
strenuous and rigorous and youwon't find as many women in that
(12:59):
area of practice, because it'squite strenuous.
Let me put it that way.
Moronke (13:05):
Okay, so the courts are the courts functioning to the
extent you said earlier that itwas frustrating when you were
doing shipping litigation?
Are the courts still asfrustrating or have they become
more efficient when it comes tolitigation?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (13:20):
Well, I haven't been to court since
maybe about 25 years ago, butfrom my guys who go I mean we
have meetings every Friday whenI do get feedback the feedback I
get from my colleagues in thelitigation field is that there's
a lot of frustration, there's alot of delay.
(13:43):
Their colleagues also useddelay tactics to prolong cases,
and so you find that the wheelsof justice grind very, very
slowly because of the fact thatour colleagues and the system
does not enable these matters tobe heard expeditiously.
(14:07):
So there's a lot of work thatstill needs to be done in that
area.
In terms of the wheels ofjustice, a lot of reforms have
been affected in recent times,but I think there's still a lot
of work that needs to be done.
I think judge's welfare alsoneeds to be addressed.
(14:29):
That needs to improve.
I think that the independenceof the judiciary still needs to
be strengthened so thatdecisions are free, fair and
removed from any partiality.
So, in my view, there's a lotof work that still needs to be
done in that process.
Moronke (14:50):
Okay.
You've been at the forefront ofthe transition from the old
style Nigerian stock exchange,which I understand is 60 years
old this year, to thisdemutalized NGX Niger exchange
limited.
As chairman or president ofthis new body, what are your
(15:10):
goals now that the new structureis in place?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (15:13):
Well, you know, I've been on the board of
the old Nigerian stock exchangefor about eight years now, but I
chaired it.
Well, let's put it this way.
So I was the last chairman ofthe mutual exchange that's the
Nigerian stock exchange and I amthe first chairman of the
(15:35):
demitrized entity.
Sorry, I was the last president.
So when you're in a mutual, youdon't have the chairman, you
have the president of the of thecouncil.
Ok, so I handled the transitionfrom the old to the new, and so
what I've, what I what I feelis a sense of deja vu, and I say
(15:57):
that because the veryestablishment of the stock
exchange my father was asolicitor to the creation and to
the establishment of the of thestock exchange in the first
place.
Oh, I feel that a lot has beenachieved already, even within
(16:17):
the first few months of thetransition, given that we've
only had three or four months ofthe transition.
We're we already a publiclylisted company and our shares
are already being traded on theNigerian, on the NGX, and, and
there are a lot of myriad ofopportunities that lie ahead of
(16:42):
us as a demitrized entity.
Of course, we're looking toaccelerate new growth platforms,
we're looking at cross borderopportunities.
We're looking to invest in newpayment platforms.
We're looking to invest incentral counterparts, the
clearing houses.
As a matter of fact, we arejust launching this Thursday,
(17:08):
the Nigerian the company calledthe NG clearing, which is a
clearinghouse for derivatives.
This was this was a company thatthe exchange invested in three
years ago and it's now about tobe formally launched on Thursday
.
There are a number of there area number of areas that we're
(17:31):
looking to strengthen our corein data and analytics technology
services.
We're looking to form or enterinto strategic partnerships with
FinTechs, etc.
So I mean, there's a there's awhole, a whole load of
opportunities that demitrizationaffords, affords them exchange,
(17:51):
and we're looking at the andwe're looking at all of them,
but, of course, we're looking atthem step by step, ok, ok.
Moronke (18:00):
So I know you had a conference about a week ago, the
first GX conference.
I believe this was November 30,I believe and in that
conference the focus was oncalling for increased
collaboration among key playersin Nigeria's economy and I've
got a quarter here towarddriving productive investments
(18:22):
that would accelerate anelevated and digitized capital
market.
You had a lot of influentialleaders at that conference,
which is a good thing because itmeans that you know you're
bringing everybody on board.
But can you explain to us and Iknow you started talking about
it, can you explain what needsto happen, because this is so
exciting if we can get it toactually happen what needs to
(18:45):
happen to achieve these goals,rather to drive productive
investments and to acceleratedigitized capital markets in
Nigeria and, for all practicalpurposes, in in Africa too?
Well, thank you very much forthat question.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (19:04):
The essence of that conference was really to
bring together leadingregulators, our regulators, the
stakeholders in the capitalmarket, including our issuers,
to come together to try andbrainstorm on what we need to do
, what we need to be doing toelevate the capital market, to
(19:25):
try to meet the objectives ofeach of the stakeholders.
And so we had speakers from theSecurities Exchange Commission,
we had private equityrepresentatives, we had
industrialists, the leadingworld, the number two cement
manufacturer, a company inNigeria, buah Alaji Rabi, samad
(19:49):
Rabiou.
They were all there and what wetried to do was to brainstorm
to see what did we need to do tofacilitate ease of the market,
of operating in the market, anda number of these issues that
were raised touched on themarket.
These issues that were raisedtouched on deficiencies, but
(20:12):
they also recognized that we hadcome quite some distance from
where we were 10 years ago.
And so you find that, forexample, that very day we had
the conference, we had thebiggest IPO in Nigeria over the
past five years, being launchedby the MTN telecommunications
(20:36):
company, and that IPO waslaunched digitally, which is the
first ever in Nigeria.
And so those are some of thethings, some of the strides that
we've made over the years inmaking access to market easier,
improving the experience of theretail investor.
(20:58):
These are some of the thingsthat we've done, but of course
there's a lot of work to stillbe done, which is outside of the
purview of the exchange itselfthe macroeconomic issues which
we do not have a direct handleon.
So you'll find that foreigninvestors, foreign portfolio
(21:21):
investors, still have issueswith our foreign exchange
management.
They can't or they will notinvest in an economy where they
can't exit the market when theywant to exit the market due to
the lack of foreign exchange.
So some of those challengesfalls squarely on the table of
(21:46):
the Central Bank of Nigeria toformulate policies that will
encourage ease of capitalrepatriation.
Of course, as an exchange, wecontinue to advocate for
policies that will ease doing ofbusiness in Nigeria, and so
(22:08):
that's to the best of ourability.
This is what we try to achievewith the conference and of
course it's the inauguralconference.
There will be lessons that aretaken from that engagement.
There will be another one nextyear, perhaps not in Abuja, but
in Lagos or some other venue,but it's the beginning of the
(22:28):
dialogue that the exchange ishaving with its stakeholders,
because we believe that itrequires a collective effort to
improve the fortunes of theexchange and the economy at
large.
Moronke (22:41):
I absolutely agree with that, that you've started the
dialogue and I think it mustcontinue, because when you're
able to bring all these peopleto the table at the same time,
you can begin to move thingsforward, and the fact that
you're also engaged with them,with all the parties, is key,
(23:02):
everybody bringing theirspecialty and their knowledge to
the table.
Which country contributes atthis point the most foreign
direct investment to Nigeria?
And let me make that a doublebarrel question what needs to
happen to attract foreigninvestment?
Those are two questions rightthere.
(23:24):
They're connected, so I wantedto pull them together.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (23:29):
Yes, From my records I understand that the
UK represents.
The United Kingdom representsthe largest foreign direct
investor to Nigeria, followed bySouth Africa due to its
telecoms MTN.
Then, of course, you have theFrench that have the oil
(23:54):
interests here, Total, and alsothe US United States with their
ExxonMobil and Chevron.
That is the information that Ihave in terms of who contributes
most to Nigeria in terms offoreign direct investment.
Moronke (24:11):
So it's still pretty much in the oil sector For the
most part.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (24:18):
Yes, for the most part because of the fact
that you have.
Actually, when you say oil interms of foreign direct
investment, you would find thatit's the telecoms, the South
African businesses and themanufacturing, because the oil
is extractive, they're takingout, they're not really putting
(24:39):
it in.
So I wouldn't think it's theoil industry.
It's more of the telecomspeople and the manufacturing
industries and the techindustries that are the ones
that are bringing money into thesystem.
That's the FDI, that's realcapital into the system.
Yes, but I think, in terms ofwhat we could do to attract more
(25:05):
FDI, the list is endless really, because we all know that there
is no economy that can growdramatically without FDI.
Our inability to attract FDI isthe bane of our problem,
because we all know that Nigeriahas rising debts and low
(25:30):
revenues.
So our cost of debt servicing,our debt servicing ratio, is
literally about 87%.
So with the rate at which we'reborrowing every dollar we make,
we're spending 87% of that andrepaying that loan.
Wow.
And so there's so many issuesthat's affecting FDI, ranging
(25:55):
from insecurity to just nothaving the right policies, not
right planning.
The political will isn't there.
In order to make this Nigeria amore attractive investment
destination, it requiresimproving our infrastructure,
(26:19):
restoring stability to theforeign exchange market,
strengthening the rule of law,getting our power situation in
order.
Take, for example, nigeria onlygenerates 4,000 megawatts of
power, 4,000 megawatts of powerfor a population of 200 million
people.
When you compare that to SouthAfrica, south Africa generates
(26:42):
60,000 megawatts of power.
So you compare that.
You see how far behind we arein terms of industrialization,
because there is no economy thatcan be industrialized without
power, absolutely.
So these are some of the thingsthat needs to be addressed.
(27:03):
The loans that we're gettingare we channeling them properly
into the right productivesectors of the economy or are we
just using the loans to payback and refinancing?
What are we using those loansfor?
Are they being used judiciously?
So, some of those things weneed to look at, some of the
(27:23):
dead assets that we have.
We have a lot of dead assets inthe hands of the government
that needs to be privatized.
What is government still doing?
Sitting on all these assetswhich are not yielding, they're
not productive.
Moronke (27:40):
Right, not yielding value.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (27:42):
Should they not be commercialized?
Yet they're not yielding value.
Should they not becommercialized?
The airports I know maybe youhaven't been to our airports for
a while, but the state of ourairports leaves much to be
desired, and the airport of anycountry is the gateway into the
country.
What does it take to build anairport?
(28:03):
I know there's a new airport inLagos now being about to be
opened, but these are the sortof infrastructure that we should
be spending our resources on,not on things that recurrent
expenditure as it is.
(28:23):
The cost of governance in itself, with the form of governance
that we have, is very expensive.
We can't afford it.
Check the cost of what you'repaying senators, aides,
politicians.
It's way, way way out of whack,and this is why we find
ourselves where we findourselves in this country.
(28:45):
Of course, you can't increaserevenue by increasing taxes,
because a country that increasestaxes, its citizens expect the
service from the government.
But in a country where you'restill responsible for literally
your entire ecosystem, from yourroad to your water treatment,
(29:06):
to your generator, to your ownsecurity, so where are those
taxes going?
So we really need to look atthe social contract between the
people in the state to see whereit's gone wrong and see how we
can fix that and get the peopleon site and get Nigerians first
(29:27):
of all investing in the country,before we even start talking
about foreign direct investment.
Let's get investment internallyfirst, before foreign direct
investment.
Once internal investment isboosted, you will find that
foreign direct investment willfollow sweet.
Moronke (29:46):
Absolutely.
We're talking about FinTechearlier.
What's going on there?
It would seem that this iswhere we would get the most bang
for all box.
And how important is thisindustry to Nigeria's growth and
development from yourperspective?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (30:06):
Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at the
demographic of the averageNigerian, 60% of the population
is under the age of 30.
So you need to engage with thispopulation.
They're the Gen Z and themillennials, and so, whatever
you're doing, you must bedigitally savvy, whatever
offerings, and that's why you'reseeing that ICT contributed
(30:30):
about 15% to GDP in 2020.
Nigeria has the largest techmarket on the African continent.
We have about 90 tech hubs andthe world's largest tech giants
IBM, microsoft, google, facebook, google, google, cisco.
(30:57):
They all have presence inNigeria.
Over 72% of the population nowhave access to mobile phones, so
the sector is estimated to bereally one of the growth sectors
in the years to come.
But, having said that, there isa very low digital skills
(31:22):
amongst our youth, and techtraining infrastructure is very
absent, and so, therefore, itdoesn't translate into jobs.
So if you have folks, youngkids, who are just good in
walking into internet cafes andplaying with the computers and
(31:44):
doing advanced fee frauds, theywill always do that if you don't
train them properly, right?
So you've got to train theseguys.
You've got to make thememployable, because they're very
smart, and so once you caninvest in the human capital
development of these young menand women.
(32:04):
It's the very foundation of thefintech revolution that we're
experiencing in Nigeria.
I mean, there's so much morefigures that I can give you
around how much capital has beenraised for fintechs, but I just
don't have them handy.
But, in fact, hold on a second.
Somebody just still sent mesomething around that today that
(32:29):
Nigeria has raised the highestamount of foreign currency for
fintechs on the Africancontinent.
Four unicorns have emerged outof Nigeria in the last two years
.
So these are all the thingsthat show you that the potential
is there in this country andall we need to do is to harness
(32:51):
these youths that are going todrive it.
Harness them, educate themproperly and give them a
conducive working environment.
Moronke (32:58):
You know, one of the things that I have been reading
over the past year and a half orso is that a lot of young, tech
savvy, knowledgeable youngpeople are leaving Nigeria
because of a lack ofopportunities, so they're taking
their skills out of the countryin order to grow.
(33:21):
That's a problem for Nigeria ifyou're losing savvy and trained
tech folks to the developedworld.
I mean some of the people thatI work with in Nigeria.
One of them, who actually workson my website, said that it's
very, very hard in Nigeria tokeep the business going because
(33:46):
of some of what you've said theinfrastructure issues, which is
primary.
Everything that you do isdependent on the internet, and
if the internet is not stableand I hope it's not going the
same way as the electricity is,but if that's not stable,
there's very little that you cando and it does, in fact, hurt
(34:08):
business an awful lot.
Is that what you've beenhearing too?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (34:13):
Yes, I mean without a doubt in the embassies
are full of applications.
The brain drain is real, notonly in the youth area but even
in the medical side.
You're finding that because ofthe COVID pandemic, there's a
big, big demand for doctors andnurses in the Middle East, in
(34:42):
Europe and in Canada.
So you're finding that a lot ofour nurses, you know, when they
compare the pay that they'regetting in the country, they
compare it to the cost of living.
It just doesn't require ascientist to say, look, we need
to get out of here.
It just doesn't make sense.
And of course, you know, oncethey're abroad they form part of
(35:05):
the diaspora and they sendmoney back to their folks back
here.
So there's a massive braindrain.
You know the amount ofNigerians applying every day to
go to Canada, to migrate.
And the young ones, you can'treally blame them.
You know the infrastructure forthem to learn and to excel is
(35:27):
really lacking.
So until we can make theenvironment conducive to them,
I'm afraid this is going tocontinue.
Moronke (35:36):
Okay, and I just wanted to follow up with this because
I saw this in a Twitter post.
Someone wrote that I mean, alot of people say, oh, nigeria
will never recover or get to thepoint that it needs to be.
But someone wrote in a Twitterpost that Nigeria's economy
still has an opportunity tobalance up and get it right via
investment in the youthpopulation.
(35:58):
If we configure out how to getmore than 70 million young
Nigerians working in productiveand steady jobs, this will do a
lot for the economy and helpresolve some of the country's
other economic problems.
How true is that for you andany ideas on how we can begin
(36:18):
that process?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (36:20):
Well, I mean , it is very true.
You know the unemployment.
I think our unemployment todayis in the order of 38%.
Wow, and yes, it's very high.
A lot of these kids are under35, they have nothing doing, and
that's only even the southernpart of Nigeria.
I mean, you must be aware thatwe have youths in the northern
(36:43):
part of Nigeria where there's areal case of banditry going on,
and one of the spiritualthinking of the Bukko Haram is
that education is forbidden, andso they do not want their youth
to go to school.
So you have the population.
The unemployment is actuallymuch higher when you factor in
(37:06):
those young ones in the north.
And so, until you have peaceand stability, nobody can study
in an environment of violenceand an environment of
criminality.
Until you have peace andstability all over the country,
you're going to have thesechallenges, and what the
(37:26):
government needs to be doing isto be creating job opportunities
.
Job opportunities.
You know the Nigerian, thetypical Nigerian, is very
resilient and always believesthat one day he will make it.
Moronke (37:38):
Yes.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (37:39):
And all he's looking for is the signal of
hope.
Yes, once you give him a signalof hope, he will get on that
and that train and he will workand pray and make sure he gets
it.
He doesn't want to be acriminal.
They're not born criminals.
They're born.
They're very industrious andall he wants is the setting and
(37:59):
opportunity to be industrious.
So the government should justcreate that enabling platform
for these guys to go to school,because once you have an
educated workforce, inevitablythat educated workforce now has
an opportunity to be employable.
What you don't want is anuneducated workforce and moving
(38:20):
that uneducated workforce intoan unemployment market.
So for me, it's a very, verystraightforward thing Create
those jobs, even if it is inagriculture, where you, you know
Nigeria has a lot of arableland.
Give them opportunities inagriculture.
Give them opportunities inmining.
Give them access to cheap loans, because I mean, you know, we
(38:45):
all know, that it's veryexpensive in Nigeria.
Give them access to cheap loansand make sure that you have
structures in place where theydon't default and that they pay
back.
Create more technical colleges,create more tech hubs All these
things.
(39:05):
It requires investment andwhich is why I spoke to you
earlier about investing inproductive sectors of the
economy.
If the money is not spentwisely and is just spent on
recurrent issues, you know, on abloated governance structure or
(39:26):
wastages and corruption, wewill continue in this circle of
penury.
Moronke (39:33):
And when we think about it, you know, countries like
India and even China up until afew years ago were practically
in the same situation as we arein, but they have been able to
generate opportunities and jobsthrough those small loans, small
(39:53):
business loans that youmentioned, because everybody
knows that Nigerians are veryproductive, they're very
industrious.
I mean, you see them all overthe world and wherever they are,
they are building businesses.
They are very productive herein the United States as well as
Britain.
So it's sad to see that wecannot make the same kind of
(40:18):
moves that India and China didin terms of those small loans,
in terms of those technicalcolleges and bringing the
expertise into if we don'talready have them and I think we
do to help train them, as yousay, so they are educated and
they can move into the jobmarket at the same time.
(40:40):
I mean, I see a lot ofsimilarities there and I don't
see why Nigeria cannot be in thesituation that India is in at
this particular time in terms offoreign investment, in terms of
their economy and also evenChina.
So I thought that's importantand it's something that I've
been thinking about for a longtime in terms of why we can't do
(41:04):
these things because we knowwhat needs to be done, as you've
pointed.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (41:09):
You've been saying yes, but you see, you
can't divorce the commercialgrowth of this country from the
political issues.
You have to get the politicalissues sorted out, yeah.
Moronke (41:24):
That's the heart of it, isn't it?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (41:25):
Yes, that's the heart of it.
You see, there are many peoplewho have been many tribes,
feeling disenfranchised, feelingaggrieved.
There's no unity or purpose yetin the country.
The only thing that brings ustogether is soccer.
When we're playing soccer, thenwe're all one.
Outside of soccer, people havearound the bare palace.
(41:47):
People are always grumbling.
The Hebrew man is grumbling,the Yoruba man is grumbling, the
Northern man is grumbling.
So first thing to do is toactually address those issues of
equity and justice.
Once you address that, then youcan find that the other areas
of a productive and economicgrowth will begin to happen,
because if you're not talkingfrom the same script, you'll
(42:10):
always have that challenge.
There's so many many thingsthat we can talk about.
That is what is holding us back.
Some may say this issue offederal character, for example,
that there must be a ministerfrom each state, representative
of each state, in the government, in the cabinet.
(42:32):
So why must that be?
Is that not creating furthercosts of governance by having a
minister representative of eachstate?
As a matter of fact, you'llfind that the complaint of some
other people will be that why isthis ministry loaded with
certain people from a certaingeographical region of the
(42:53):
country.
So there is so much.
Until you have peace of mindand people know that everything
is done equally, people won't besailing, won't be in the same
boat, it'll just be a reluctanteffort.
You're so right.
Moronke (43:09):
I mean you put your finger right on it.
Until we sort out the politicalissues, we really can't move
too far forward on thecommercial Moving away from that
.
One last question you wererecently appointed by the
nonprofit organization Oncologyto serve as one of three global
ambassadors for the cervicalcancer free Nigeria campaign.
(43:30):
Tell us a little bit about thatand how big a problem is
cervical cancer in Nigeria, ifyou have that data on hand?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (43:40):
Well, I mean , I was invited to be an
ambassador for global oncologyand I willingly jumped at the
invitation because I know canceris a scourge, having lost my
mother to cancer, in fact, whichshe passed on in my own very
(44:01):
hands, in my own very eyes, inhospital.
I'm so sorry.
I didn't hesitate to thank you,to take up that role and, to my
understanding, I'm not aphysician or a doctor, but to my
understanding, it's one ofthose cancers that is very, very
(44:23):
avoidable.
Yes, it is, it's very, yes,it's very avoidable.
But yet when you hear thestatistics of the people but
mainly women, but the women whodie from it, it's unbelievable,
simply because they did not takethe vaccine or they were not
(44:43):
aware of the vaccine.
So, out of the role of the thatI'm playing as an ambassador,
even just the advocacy, justeven bringing the knowledge of
cervical cancer to the populaceand how it can be cured or it
can be avoided simply by avaccine I can't give you numbers
(45:07):
, but I know it's a very largenumber, and what we've tried to
do is to influence government,to create a policy around
cervical cancer so that themedical, the doctors, the
hospitals also play their partin educating mothers and young
(45:28):
girls on the necessity to havethis vaccine.
Of course, they've got to battlealso with the stigma that our
understanding is associated withit, because there's this stigma
that we hear that people womenfeel that it causes.
It has other implications whichcould be adverse and, from what
(45:55):
I've been informed, nothingcould be further from the truth
in that regard.
So, yes, I'm proud to be anambassador for global oncology
and I'm proud to say that wealso just recently adopted
General Obasanjo also as anambassador oh good For global
oncology.
And he's promised to take themessage to Abuja also to see how
(46:21):
they could get a policy goingand begin to educate more
Nigerians on the need to takethe vaccine.
Moronke (46:29):
I thought that was wonderful when I heard that and
I was thinking they chose theright person on this.
I'm glad that we're looking atthis because this is a big
problem for women, particularlywomen in developing countries,
because cervical cancer is asilent killer.
The symptoms are not alwayspresent, so you have to be
(46:50):
familiar with it and understandthe things that you can do.
As you say, it's a preventabledisease, but we have to be aware
of it first.
So I know this must be adifferent kind of challenge for
you from all the hard stuff thatyou talk about with the
commerce and investment and allthe rest of it.
So who knows, maybe it's apassion, absolutely, and don't
(47:14):
we love getting involved inpassion?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (47:16):
Yes, I don't see it as work, I see it as
just a passion.
Moronke (47:20):
That's wonderful.
I really appreciate that and Ireally appreciate you talking to
me today because I know I'vejust taken up a big chunk of
your time, although I'm kind ofglad because I think I probably
slowed you down a little bit,give you some time to think
about other things but I reallydo appreciate the time that
(47:43):
you've given us today.
You've already talked to usabout what you'd be doing in the
future.
Is there anything else that wedidn't cover that you want folks
to know, or did I already covereverything?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (47:55):
You really did cover everything.
I just pray for me that my oldman is going to be 98.
Moronke (48:02):
Oh, congratulations.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (48:05):
I'm praying that he makes it to 100 years of
age another two years, and so Ijust pray that he keeps in good
shape and that this COVID thinggoes away sooner than later.
Moronke (48:19):
We all hope so and we all pray too, but we wish him
well.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for the timeand that is a wrap for 2021.
grace (48:31):
As this year comes to an end, we just want to thank our
listeners for your continuedsupport.
There's a lot more content tocome in the new year, so please
stay tuned.
Happy New Year.
Moronke (48:44):
If you enjoyed the show , we'd love to hear from you.
grace (48:47):
You can also follow us on Facebook at Eyes on Africa
Caribbean and on our websiteEyesOnAfricaCaribbeancom.
Until next time, thanks forlistening.
Our hearts are heavy as we extend our deepest
condolences to the family ofAbimbala Ogubanjo, or Abby as he
was known to his friends.
A visionary and remarkableguest on our podcast what's
Going On Eyes on Africa and theCaribbean, abby's untimely
passing is a profound loss andour thoughts are with his loved
(00:23):
ones during this difficult time.
We also express condolences tothe family of Herbert Wigway,
the CEO of Access Bank, whoperished along with his wife and
son on that fateful day inCalifornia, February 9.
In memory of Abby's vibrantspirit, we invite you to revisit
(00:45):
the insightful episode heshared with us as we celebrate
his talents and dedication toadvancing Nigeria.
Hello and welcome to What'sGoing On?
Eyes on Africa and theCaribbean.
grace (00:59):
Join us as we follow social and economic development
issues in and around Africa andthe Caribbean.
If it relates to Africa, theCaribbean and the people of the
African diaspora, we'll talkabout it.
What's going on?
Eyes on Africa and theCaribbean wants you to stay
connected to the people andplaces that you love, so join us
(01:20):
.
Moronke (01:21):
Where are your hosts?
Moronke Oshin-Martin and GraceOcean?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (01:25):
Come on, guys.
Moronke (01:45):
As the COVID-19 pandemic continues to bat our
economies worldwide, peoplearound the world are reassessing
the state of affairs and theircountry's well-being.
Mr Abimbola Ogubanjo, the headof Nigerian Exchange Limited,
ngx, hosted the first annual NGXCapital Markets Conference that
brought together leadingpolicymakers, financial experts,
(02:08):
business leaders, investors,international development
partners and regulators todiscuss ways to increase the
collaboration among key playersin the nation's economy in order
to drive productive investmentsthat would accelerate an
elevated and digitized capitalmarket.
Today, I have the pleasure oftalking to Mr Abimbola Ogubanjo,
(02:33):
also known as Abbi.
To his friends, abbi recentlyengineered and oversaw the
transition of the 60-year-oldNigerian Stock Exchange, making
it what it is today.
Welcome, abbi, to what's GoingOn.
I'm Izon.
Afrika and the Caribbean.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (02:52):
Thank you.
Moronke (02:54):
You're a second-generation leader and
lawyer in Nigeria's oldestindigenous law firm.
How do you feel about theprofession in Nigeria and its
place in the world of corporatelaw and litigation?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (03:11):
Well, I started practicing law in 1990.
Actually, law is my seconddegree.
I studied businessadministration as my first
degree and I worked briefly inbanking Chase Manhattan Bank.
Moronke (03:30):
Oh, so you're kind of like an American at heart too.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (03:34):
Correct, correct, correct.
My first life was as a studentof a US University in
Switzerland, where I studiedbusiness administration OK, and
I returned to Nigeria and Iworked in Chase Manhattan Bank
for a couple of years threeyears before I returned to the
(03:57):
UK to study law OK, and I'vebeen practicing law ever since I
graduated from the Nigerian LawSchool in 1990.
And one thing I'll givecorporate lawyers is that we
have a overview of the economy.
(04:17):
So no matter which area youspecialize in, in practice you
tend to have a general knowledgeof bits and pieces of every
aspect of the economy.
That's one of the benefits ofbeing a corporate lawyer, and I
found that since I startedpracticing, that law in Nigeria
(04:42):
is being getting to be a veryspecialized area.
So you're not.
When I first started out, wedidn't have specialists, but now
, with incursion into theprofession by foreign law firms,
you're getting to see thatlawyers are beginning to
specialize in areas likeshipping, construction law,
(05:08):
infrastructure, banking, finance, these things, and so this
wasn't the order of the day whenI started practicing law.
So that's one of the changesthat I've seen in the legal
profession, but unfortunately Ican only speak for the corporate
law side.
(05:29):
I was a litigator when I firststarted out practicing, because
I actually was doing a lot ofshipping law in my early, early
years.
I did that for two, three years.
Then I became slightlydisenchanted and a bit
frustrated with the slow pace ofthe legal system Let me put it
(05:49):
that way of the judicial system.
It takes you ages to get adecision and so I got frustrated
with that and I left shippingand I started focusing on
commercial and corporatepractice.
But as we see practice today,I'm seeing that law firms are
getting bigger, theirpartnerships, their
(06:12):
consolidations, and I foreseethat firms are going to be
bigger in the future.
There's going to be moreconsolidations as the founders
of those firms begin to retire.
So folks like myself who areapproaching retirement age will
(06:36):
soon be thinking about how topass on the baton, bearing in
mind that the law firm which Imanage is currently a limited
partnership which is run bymyself.
It's a family law firm, butit's unsustainable as a family
law firm Because I have nooffspring or relatives who are,
(06:59):
I could say are, part ofbusiness.
So ultimately we have to thinkabout opening it up into either
a business combination and anyform of arrangement that enables
it to sustain itself in thelong run.
Moronke (07:18):
So you talked earlier about law now being very
specialized.
Is that for you a good thing,or is it a bad thing?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (07:28):
Well, you know you're still going to have
the general practitioner, a manwho can, who professes to be a
divorce lawyer, he professes tobe a shipping lawyer, professes
to be a banker, a banking lawyer.
He wants to just do everything.
But because of the demands ofthe consumer, of the clients.
(07:52):
Today, the demands are much,much higher from the legal
practitioner that you'll findthat a general practitioner will
find him or herself strugglingto meet up with the client's
demands, particularly when timeis so, so, so important for the
(08:14):
clients.
So if a client contacts youfrom New York and he says, abbey
, I need that information withinthe next three, four hours to
turn it around, you don't havethe luxury of time to start
trying to learn that particularaspect of law that that client
(08:34):
wants.
What you need to do is to sayall right, I've heard you, tom,
I'm going to give it to mypartner, who is a specialist in
employment, and that lawyer willlook at it and will turn it
around in three or four hours.
So I think that's the benefitspecialization brings about
efficiency and just generalknowledge.
Moronke (08:56):
I think, using the example that you use when we
talk about, especially here inthe US, when we talk about
looking for a lawyer, we want,if it's a divorce lawyer, we
want a divorce lawyer and I wantto hear that you have X number
of years' experience in thatfield or if it's an employment
lawyer or an immigration lawyer.
(09:16):
The notion of going to ageneral practitioner sounds so
strange to me.
But you're saying that that'sstill where it is now in Nigeria
, or is that changing too?
The other question behind thatis so, with your firm, are you
(09:37):
going to be thinking about amerger with another firm?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (09:42):
Okay.
So, like I said, we are tendingtowards moving to specialized
practices.
What we do not have yet areboutique specialized practices.
So, you know, in the UK and theWest, you find that there's
some firms that are justgenerally known for special
(10:06):
practices.
So if I say, for example, aboutique law firm in Germany
that is known solely for tax orjust solely for employment, we
haven't gotten to that stage.
We are at a stage where you havea corporate law firm that has
different multidisciplinaryfocus, you have a section that
(10:31):
deals with litigation, you havedepartments and partners that
focus on specialized areas ofpractice.
So we are gradually moving awayfrom the general practitioner,
which is what we used to dopreviously.
As we approach 2022, I amseeing more consolidations of
law firms because of the factthat everybody is trying to
(10:54):
specialize.
You are trying to get the bestof every aspect of practice as
we go forward at Criso Gobanjo,yes, we'll be looking at the
consolidation.
We'll be looking at thepossibility of a merger or even
vertical integrations, dependingon how we see the market at the
(11:15):
time.
Moronke (11:15):
Okay, and how are women doing in this field?
Are they breaking into the sameextent that we see in the West?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (11:22):
Yes, women are doing very, very well,
especially in the corporateworld.
You are finding that, forexample, in the banking industry
today you are finding that youhave, I think about four women
or three women who are CEOs ofthe top tier one banks in
(11:43):
Nigeria today.
So that's about four women outof, I would say I think about
seven tier one banks and thereare four of them that are headed
by women in the bankingindustry.
So, yes, women are doing very,very well, especially in law as
well, where you didn't have manysenior advocates.
(12:05):
When I say senior advocates, inEngland they call them Queen's
Council.
I don't think you have thatcategory of in the US now, in
the US, but in England they callthem Queen's Council and you're
having more and more of Queen'sCouncil.
The equivalent here in Nigeriais called senior advocates and
(12:27):
they're pointing a number ofthem, a lot of career women who
in practice, also are not.
Moronke (12:31):
So are these young women, or are these middle
career women?
What are we talking about?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (12:37):
We're talking about ladies in the mid
40s, 50s.
Oh yes, they're doing very well.
They're doing very well, but ofcourse that is in the corporate
law side.
You're finding that inlitigation can still be a bit
strenuous and rigorous and youwon't find as many women in that
(12:59):
area of practice, because it'squite strenuous.
Let me put it that way.
Moronke (13:05):
Okay, so the courts are the courts functioning to the
extent you said earlier that itwas frustrating when you were
doing shipping litigation?
Are the courts still asfrustrating or have they become
more efficient when it comes tolitigation?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (13:20):
Well, I haven't been to court since
maybe about 25 years ago, butfrom my guys who go I mean we
have meetings every Friday whenI do get feedback the feedback I
get from my colleagues in thelitigation field is that there's
a lot of frustration, there's alot of delay.
(13:43):
Their colleagues also useddelay tactics to prolong cases,
and so you find that the wheelsof justice grind very, very
slowly because of the fact thatour colleagues and the system
does not enable these matters tobe heard expeditiously.
(14:07):
So there's a lot of work thatstill needs to be done in that
area.
In terms of the wheels ofjustice, a lot of reforms have
been affected in recent times,but I think there's still a lot
of work that needs to be done.
I think judge's welfare alsoneeds to be addressed.
(14:29):
That needs to improve.
I think that the independenceof the judiciary still needs to
be strengthened so thatdecisions are free, fair and
removed from any partiality.
So, in my view, there's a lotof work that still needs to be
done in that process.
Moronke (14:50):
Okay.
You've been at the forefront ofthe transition from the old
style Nigerian stock exchange,which I understand is 60 years
old this year, to thisdemutalized NGX Niger exchange
limited.
As chairman or president ofthis new body, what are your
(15:10):
goals now that the new structureis in place?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (15:13):
Well, you know, I've been on the board of
the old Nigerian stock exchangefor about eight years now, but I
chaired it.
Well, let's put it this way.
So I was the last chairman ofthe mutual exchange that's the
Nigerian stock exchange and I amthe first chairman of the
(15:35):
demitrized entity.
Sorry, I was the last president.
So when you're in a mutual, youdon't have the chairman, you
have the president of the of thecouncil.
Ok, so I handled the transitionfrom the old to the new, and so
what I've, what I what I feelis a sense of deja vu, and I say
(15:57):
that because the veryestablishment of the stock
exchange my father was asolicitor to the creation and to
the establishment of the of thestock exchange in the first
place.
Oh, I feel that a lot has beenachieved already, even within
(16:17):
the first few months of thetransition, given that we've
only had three or four months ofthe transition.
We're we already a publiclylisted company and our shares
are already being traded on theNigerian, on the NGX, and, and
there are a lot of myriad ofopportunities that lie ahead of
(16:42):
us as a demitrized entity.
Of course, we're looking toaccelerate new growth platforms,
we're looking at cross borderopportunities.
We're looking to invest in newpayment platforms.
We're looking to invest incentral counterparts, the
clearing houses.
As a matter of fact, we arejust launching this Thursday,
(17:08):
the Nigerian the company calledthe NG clearing, which is a
clearinghouse for derivatives.
This was this was a company thatthe exchange invested in three
years ago and it's now about tobe formally launched on Thursday
.
There are a number of there area number of areas that we're
(17:31):
looking to strengthen our corein data and analytics technology
services.
We're looking to form or enterinto strategic partnerships with
FinTechs, etc.
So I mean, there's a there's awhole, a whole load of
opportunities that demitrizationaffords, affords them exchange,
(17:51):
and we're looking at the andwe're looking at all of them,
but, of course, we're looking atthem step by step, ok, ok.
Moronke (18:00):
So I know you had a conference about a week ago, the
first GX conference.
I believe this was November 30,I believe and in that
conference the focus was oncalling for increased
collaboration among key playersin Nigeria's economy and I've
got a quarter here towarddriving productive investments
(18:22):
that would accelerate anelevated and digitized capital
market.
You had a lot of influentialleaders at that conference,
which is a good thing because itmeans that you know you're
bringing everybody on board.
But can you explain to us and Iknow you started talking about
it, can you explain what needsto happen, because this is so
exciting if we can get it toactually happen what needs to
(18:45):
happen to achieve these goals,rather to drive productive
investments and to acceleratedigitized capital markets in
Nigeria and, for all practicalpurposes, in in Africa too?
Well, thank you very much forthat question.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (19:04):
The essence of that conference was really to
bring together leadingregulators, our regulators, the
stakeholders in the capitalmarket, including our issuers,
to come together to try andbrainstorm on what we need to do
, what we need to be doing toelevate the capital market, to
(19:25):
try to meet the objectives ofeach of the stakeholders.
And so we had speakers from theSecurities Exchange Commission,
we had private equityrepresentatives, we had
industrialists, the leadingworld, the number two cement
manufacturer, a company inNigeria, buah Alaji Rabi, samad
(19:49):
Rabiou.
They were all there and what wetried to do was to brainstorm
to see what did we need to do tofacilitate ease of the market,
of operating in the market, anda number of these issues that
were raised touched on themarket.
These issues that were raisedtouched on deficiencies, but
(20:12):
they also recognized that we hadcome quite some distance from
where we were 10 years ago.
And so you find that, forexample, that very day we had
the conference, we had thebiggest IPO in Nigeria over the
past five years, being launchedby the MTN telecommunications
(20:36):
company, and that IPO waslaunched digitally, which is the
first ever in Nigeria.
And so those are some of thethings, some of the strides that
we've made over the years inmaking access to market easier,
improving the experience of theretail investor.
(20:58):
These are some of the thingsthat we've done, but of course
there's a lot of work to stillbe done, which is outside of the
purview of the exchange itselfthe macroeconomic issues which
we do not have a direct handleon.
So you'll find that foreigninvestors, foreign portfolio
(21:21):
investors, still have issueswith our foreign exchange
management.
They can't or they will notinvest in an economy where they
can't exit the market when theywant to exit the market due to
the lack of foreign exchange.
So some of those challengesfalls squarely on the table of
(21:46):
the Central Bank of Nigeria toformulate policies that will
encourage ease of capitalrepatriation.
Of course, as an exchange, wecontinue to advocate for
policies that will ease doing ofbusiness in Nigeria, and so
(22:08):
that's to the best of ourability.
This is what we try to achievewith the conference and of
course it's the inauguralconference.
There will be lessons that aretaken from that engagement.
There will be another one nextyear, perhaps not in Abuja, but
in Lagos or some other venue,but it's the beginning of the
(22:28):
dialogue that the exchange ishaving with its stakeholders,
because we believe that itrequires a collective effort to
improve the fortunes of theexchange and the economy at
large.
Moronke (22:41):
I absolutely agree with that, that you've started the
dialogue and I think it mustcontinue, because when you're
able to bring all these peopleto the table at the same time,
you can begin to move thingsforward, and the fact that
you're also engaged with them,with all the parties, is key,
(23:02):
everybody bringing theirspecialty and their knowledge to
the table.
Which country contributes atthis point the most foreign
direct investment to Nigeria?
And let me make that a doublebarrel question what needs to
happen to attract foreigninvestment?
Those are two questions rightthere.
(23:24):
They're connected, so I wantedto pull them together.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (23:29):
Yes, From my records I understand that the
UK represents.
The United Kingdom representsthe largest foreign direct
investor to Nigeria, followed bySouth Africa due to its
telecoms MTN.
Then, of course, you have theFrench that have the oil
(23:54):
interests here, Total, and alsothe US United States with their
ExxonMobil and Chevron.
That is the information that Ihave in terms of who contributes
most to Nigeria in terms offoreign direct investment.
Moronke (24:11):
So it's still pretty much in the oil sector For the
most part.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (24:18):
Yes, for the most part because of the fact
that you have.
Actually, when you say oil interms of foreign direct
investment, you would find thatit's the telecoms, the South
African businesses and themanufacturing, because the oil
is extractive, they're takingout, they're not really putting
(24:39):
it in.
So I wouldn't think it's theoil industry.
It's more of the telecomspeople and the manufacturing
industries and the techindustries that are the ones
that are bringing money into thesystem.
That's the FDI, that's realcapital into the system.
Yes, but I think, in terms ofwhat we could do to attract more
(25:05):
FDI, the list is endless really, because we all know that there
is no economy that can growdramatically without FDI.
Our inability to attract FDI isthe bane of our problem,
because we all know that Nigeriahas rising debts and low
(25:30):
revenues.
So our cost of debt servicing,our debt servicing ratio, is
literally about 87%.
So with the rate at which we'reborrowing every dollar we make,
we're spending 87% of that andrepaying that loan.
Wow.
And so there's so many issuesthat's affecting FDI, ranging
(25:55):
from insecurity to just nothaving the right policies, not
right planning.
The political will isn't there.
In order to make this Nigeria amore attractive investment
destination, it requiresimproving our infrastructure,
(26:19):
restoring stability to theforeign exchange market,
strengthening the rule of law,getting our power situation in
order.
Take, for example, nigeria onlygenerates 4,000 megawatts of
power, 4,000 megawatts of powerfor a population of 200 million
people.
When you compare that to SouthAfrica, south Africa generates
(26:42):
60,000 megawatts of power.
So you compare that.
You see how far behind we arein terms of industrialization,
because there is no economy thatcan be industrialized without
power, absolutely.
So these are some of the thingsthat needs to be addressed.
(27:03):
The loans that we're gettingare we channeling them properly
into the right productivesectors of the economy or are we
just using the loans to payback and refinancing?
What are we using those loansfor?
Are they being used judiciously?
So, some of those things weneed to look at, some of the
(27:23):
dead assets that we have.
We have a lot of dead assets inthe hands of the government
that needs to be privatized.
What is government still doing?
Sitting on all these assetswhich are not yielding, they're
not productive.
Moronke (27:40):
Right, not yielding value.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (27:42):
Should they not be commercialized?
Yet they're not yielding value.
Should they not becommercialized?
The airports I know maybe youhaven't been to our airports for
a while, but the state of ourairports leaves much to be
desired, and the airport of anycountry is the gateway into the
country.
What does it take to build anairport?
(28:03):
I know there's a new airport inLagos now being about to be
opened, but these are the sortof infrastructure that we should
be spending our resources on,not on things that recurrent
expenditure as it is.
(28:23):
The cost of governance in itself, with the form of governance
that we have, is very expensive.
We can't afford it.
Check the cost of what you'repaying senators, aides,
politicians.
It's way, way way out of whack,and this is why we find
ourselves where we findourselves in this country.
(28:45):
Of course, you can't increaserevenue by increasing taxes,
because a country that increasestaxes, its citizens expect the
service from the government.
But in a country where you'restill responsible for literally
your entire ecosystem, from yourroad to your water treatment,
(29:06):
to your generator, to your ownsecurity, so where are those
taxes going?
So we really need to look atthe social contract between the
people in the state to see whereit's gone wrong and see how we
can fix that and get the peopleon site and get Nigerians first
(29:27):
of all investing in the country,before we even start talking
about foreign direct investment.
Let's get investment internallyfirst, before foreign direct
investment.
Once internal investment isboosted, you will find that
foreign direct investment willfollow sweet.
Moronke (29:46):
Absolutely.
We're talking about FinTechearlier.
What's going on there?
It would seem that this iswhere we would get the most bang
for all box.
And how important is thisindustry to Nigeria's growth and
development from yourperspective?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (30:06):
Yeah, well, I mean, if you look at the
demographic of the averageNigerian, 60% of the population
is under the age of 30.
So you need to engage with thispopulation.
They're the Gen Z and themillennials, and so, whatever
you're doing, you must bedigitally savvy, whatever
offerings, and that's why you'reseeing that ICT contributed
(30:30):
about 15% to GDP in 2020.
Nigeria has the largest techmarket on the African continent.
We have about 90 tech hubs andthe world's largest tech giants
IBM, microsoft, google, facebook, google, google, cisco.
(30:57):
They all have presence inNigeria.
Over 72% of the population nowhave access to mobile phones, so
the sector is estimated to bereally one of the growth sectors
in the years to come.
But, having said that, there isa very low digital skills
(31:22):
amongst our youth, and techtraining infrastructure is very
absent, and so, therefore, itdoesn't translate into jobs.
So if you have folks, youngkids, who are just good in
walking into internet cafes andplaying with the computers and
(31:44):
doing advanced fee frauds, theywill always do that if you don't
train them properly, right?
So you've got to train theseguys.
You've got to make thememployable, because they're very
smart, and so once you caninvest in the human capital
development of these young menand women.
(32:04):
It's the very foundation of thefintech revolution that we're
experiencing in Nigeria.
I mean, there's so much morefigures that I can give you
around how much capital has beenraised for fintechs, but I just
don't have them handy.
But, in fact, hold on a second.
Somebody just still sent mesomething around that today that
(32:29):
Nigeria has raised the highestamount of foreign currency for
fintechs on the Africancontinent.
Four unicorns have emerged outof Nigeria in the last two years
.
So these are all the thingsthat show you that the potential
is there in this country andall we need to do is to harness
(32:51):
these youths that are going todrive it.
Harness them, educate themproperly and give them a
conducive working environment.
Moronke (32:58):
You know, one of the things that I have been reading
over the past year and a half orso is that a lot of young, tech
savvy, knowledgeable youngpeople are leaving Nigeria
because of a lack ofopportunities, so they're taking
their skills out of the countryin order to grow.
(33:21):
That's a problem for Nigeria ifyou're losing savvy and trained
tech folks to the developedworld.
I mean some of the people thatI work with in Nigeria.
One of them, who actually workson my website, said that it's
very, very hard in Nigeria tokeep the business going because
(33:46):
of some of what you've said theinfrastructure issues, which is
primary.
Everything that you do isdependent on the internet, and
if the internet is not stableand I hope it's not going the
same way as the electricity is,but if that's not stable,
there's very little that you cando and it does, in fact, hurt
(34:08):
business an awful lot.
Is that what you've beenhearing too?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (34:13):
Yes, I mean without a doubt in the embassies
are full of applications.
The brain drain is real, notonly in the youth area but even
in the medical side.
You're finding that because ofthe COVID pandemic, there's a
big, big demand for doctors andnurses in the Middle East, in
(34:42):
Europe and in Canada.
So you're finding that a lot ofour nurses, you know, when they
compare the pay that they'regetting in the country, they
compare it to the cost of living.
It just doesn't require ascientist to say, look, we need
to get out of here.
It just doesn't make sense.
And of course, you know, oncethey're abroad they form part of
(35:05):
the diaspora and they sendmoney back to their folks back
here.
So there's a massive braindrain.
You know the amount ofNigerians applying every day to
go to Canada, to migrate.
And the young ones, you can'treally blame them.
You know the infrastructure forthem to learn and to excel is
(35:27):
really lacking.
So until we can make theenvironment conducive to them,
I'm afraid this is going tocontinue.
Moronke (35:36):
Okay, and I just wanted to follow up with this because
I saw this in a Twitter post.
Someone wrote that I mean, alot of people say, oh, nigeria
will never recover or get to thepoint that it needs to be.
But someone wrote in a Twitterpost that Nigeria's economy
still has an opportunity tobalance up and get it right via
investment in the youthpopulation.
(35:58):
If we configure out how to getmore than 70 million young
Nigerians working in productiveand steady jobs, this will do a
lot for the economy and helpresolve some of the country's
other economic problems.
How true is that for you andany ideas on how we can begin
(36:18):
that process?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (36:20):
Well, I mean , it is very true.
You know the unemployment.
I think our unemployment todayis in the order of 38%.
Wow, and yes, it's very high.
A lot of these kids are under35, they have nothing doing, and
that's only even the southernpart of Nigeria.
I mean, you must be aware thatwe have youths in the northern
(36:43):
part of Nigeria where there's areal case of banditry going on,
and one of the spiritualthinking of the Bukko Haram is
that education is forbidden, andso they do not want their youth
to go to school.
So you have the population.
The unemployment is actuallymuch higher when you factor in
(37:06):
those young ones in the north.
And so, until you have peaceand stability, nobody can study
in an environment of violenceand an environment of
criminality.
Until you have peace andstability all over the country,
you're going to have thesechallenges, and what the
(37:26):
government needs to be doing isto be creating job opportunities
.
Job opportunities.
You know the Nigerian, thetypical Nigerian, is very
resilient and always believesthat one day he will make it.
Moronke (37:38):
Yes.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (37:39):
And all he's looking for is the signal of
hope.
Yes, once you give him a signalof hope, he will get on that
and that train and he will workand pray and make sure he gets
it.
He doesn't want to be acriminal.
They're not born criminals.
They're born.
They're very industrious andall he wants is the setting and
(37:59):
opportunity to be industrious.
So the government should justcreate that enabling platform
for these guys to go to school,because once you have an
educated workforce, inevitablythat educated workforce now has
an opportunity to be employable.
What you don't want is anuneducated workforce and moving
(38:20):
that uneducated workforce intoan unemployment market.
So for me, it's a very, verystraightforward thing Create
those jobs, even if it is inagriculture, where you, you know
Nigeria has a lot of arableland.
Give them opportunities inagriculture.
Give them opportunities inmining.
Give them access to cheap loans, because I mean, you know, we
(38:45):
all know, that it's veryexpensive in Nigeria.
Give them access to cheap loansand make sure that you have
structures in place where theydon't default and that they pay
back.
Create more technical colleges,create more tech hubs All these
things.
(39:05):
It requires investment andwhich is why I spoke to you
earlier about investing inproductive sectors of the
economy.
If the money is not spentwisely and is just spent on
recurrent issues, you know, on abloated governance structure or
(39:26):
wastages and corruption, wewill continue in this circle of
penury.
Moronke (39:33):
And when we think about it, you know, countries like
India and even China up until afew years ago were practically
in the same situation as we arein, but they have been able to
generate opportunities and jobsthrough those small loans, small
(39:53):
business loans that youmentioned, because everybody
knows that Nigerians are veryproductive, they're very
industrious.
I mean, you see them all overthe world and wherever they are,
they are building businesses.
They are very productive herein the United States as well as
Britain.
So it's sad to see that wecannot make the same kind of
(40:18):
moves that India and China didin terms of those small loans,
in terms of those technicalcolleges and bringing the
expertise into if we don'talready have them and I think we
do to help train them, as yousay, so they are educated and
they can move into the jobmarket at the same time.
(40:40):
I mean, I see a lot ofsimilarities there and I don't
see why Nigeria cannot be in thesituation that India is in at
this particular time in terms offoreign investment, in terms of
their economy and also evenChina.
So I thought that's importantand it's something that I've
been thinking about for a longtime in terms of why we can't do
(41:04):
these things because we knowwhat needs to be done, as you've
pointed.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (41:09):
You've been saying yes, but you see, you
can't divorce the commercialgrowth of this country from the
political issues.
You have to get the politicalissues sorted out, yeah.
Moronke (41:24):
That's the heart of it, isn't it?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (41:25):
Yes, that's the heart of it.
You see, there are many peoplewho have been many tribes,
feeling disenfranchised, feelingaggrieved.
There's no unity or purpose yetin the country.
The only thing that brings ustogether is soccer.
When we're playing soccer, thenwe're all one.
Outside of soccer, people havearound the bare palace.
(41:47):
People are always grumbling.
The Hebrew man is grumbling,the Yoruba man is grumbling, the
Northern man is grumbling.
So first thing to do is toactually address those issues of
equity and justice.
Once you address that, then youcan find that the other areas
of a productive and economicgrowth will begin to happen,
because if you're not talkingfrom the same script, you'll
(42:10):
always have that challenge.
There's so many many thingsthat we can talk about.
That is what is holding us back.
Some may say this issue offederal character, for example,
that there must be a ministerfrom each state, representative
of each state, in the government, in the cabinet.
(42:32):
So why must that be?
Is that not creating furthercosts of governance by having a
minister representative of eachstate?
As a matter of fact, you'llfind that the complaint of some
other people will be that why isthis ministry loaded with
certain people from a certaingeographical region of the
(42:53):
country.
So there is so much.
Until you have peace of mindand people know that everything
is done equally, people won't besailing, won't be in the same
boat, it'll just be a reluctanteffort.
You're so right.
Moronke (43:09):
I mean you put your finger right on it.
Until we sort out the politicalissues, we really can't move
too far forward on thecommercial Moving away from that
.
One last question you wererecently appointed by the
nonprofit organization Oncologyto serve as one of three global
ambassadors for the cervicalcancer free Nigeria campaign.
(43:30):
Tell us a little bit about thatand how big a problem is
cervical cancer in Nigeria, ifyou have that data on hand?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (43:40):
Well, I mean , I was invited to be an
ambassador for global oncologyand I willingly jumped at the
invitation because I know canceris a scourge, having lost my
mother to cancer, in fact, whichshe passed on in my own very
(44:01):
hands, in my own very eyes, inhospital.
I'm so sorry.
I didn't hesitate to thank you,to take up that role and, to my
understanding, I'm not aphysician or a doctor, but to my
understanding, it's one ofthose cancers that is very, very
(44:23):
avoidable.
Yes, it is, it's very, yes,it's very avoidable.
But yet when you hear thestatistics of the people but
mainly women, but the women whodie from it, it's unbelievable,
simply because they did not takethe vaccine or they were not
(44:43):
aware of the vaccine.
So, out of the role of the thatI'm playing as an ambassador,
even just the advocacy, justeven bringing the knowledge of
cervical cancer to the populaceand how it can be cured or it
can be avoided simply by avaccine I can't give you numbers
(45:07):
, but I know it's a very largenumber, and what we've tried to
do is to influence government,to create a policy around
cervical cancer so that themedical, the doctors, the
hospitals also play their partin educating mothers and young
(45:28):
girls on the necessity to havethis vaccine.
Of course, they've got to battlealso with the stigma that our
understanding is associated withit, because there's this stigma
that we hear that people womenfeel that it causes.
It has other implications whichcould be adverse and, from what
(45:55):
I've been informed, nothingcould be further from the truth
in that regard.
So, yes, I'm proud to be anambassador for global oncology
and I'm proud to say that wealso just recently adopted
General Obasanjo also as anambassador oh good For global
oncology.
And he's promised to take themessage to Abuja also to see how
(46:21):
they could get a policy goingand begin to educate more
Nigerians on the need to takethe vaccine.
Moronke (46:29):
I thought that was wonderful when I heard that and
I was thinking they chose theright person on this.
I'm glad that we're looking atthis because this is a big
problem for women, particularlywomen in developing countries,
because cervical cancer is asilent killer.
The symptoms are not alwayspresent, so you have to be
(46:50):
familiar with it and understandthe things that you can do.
As you say, it's a preventabledisease, but we have to be aware
of it first.
So I know this must be adifferent kind of challenge for
you from all the hard stuff thatyou talk about with the
commerce and investment and allthe rest of it.
So who knows, maybe it's apassion, absolutely, and don't
(47:14):
we love getting involved inpassion?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (47:16):
Yes, I don't see it as work, I see it as
just a passion.
Moronke (47:20):
That's wonderful.
I really appreciate that and Ireally appreciate you talking to
me today because I know I'vejust taken up a big chunk of
your time, although I'm kind ofglad because I think I probably
slowed you down a little bit,give you some time to think
about other things but I reallydo appreciate the time that
(47:43):
you've given us today.
You've already talked to usabout what you'd be doing in the
future.
Is there anything else that wedidn't cover that you want folks
to know, or did I already covereverything?
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (47:55):
You really did cover everything.
I just pray for me that my oldman is going to be 98.
Moronke (48:02):
Oh, congratulations.
Abimbola Ogunbanjo (48:05):
I'm praying that he makes it to 100 years of
age another two years, and so Ijust pray that he keeps in good
shape and that this COVID thinggoes away sooner than later.
Moronke (48:19):
We all hope so and we all pray too, but we wish him
well.
I really appreciate it.
Thank you so much for the timeand that is a wrap for 2021.
grace (48:31):
As this year comes to an end, we just want to thank our
listeners for your continuedsupport.
There's a lot more content tocome in the new year, so please
stay tuned.
Happy New Year.
Moronke (48:44):
If you enjoyed the show , we'd love to hear from you.
grace (48:47):
You can also follow us on Facebook at Eyes on Africa
Caribbean and on our websiteEyesOnAfricaCaribbeancom.
Until next time, thanks forlistening.
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