July 14, 2025 • 61 mins
Today on What's My Frame I'm joined by Director & Filmmaker, Deborah Kampmeier. This episode is so incredibly special; Deborah shares her beautiful creative journey of becoming a filmmaker. Deborah originally studied acting at The National Shakespeare Conservatory. After graduation she set, as she calls it, “an impossible goal” that took her far from home only to return a changed artist with filmmaking capturing her heart.
Today we chat about her exquisite work on HBO’s critically-acclaimed period drama THE GILDED AGE and how she builds trust and holds valuable space for her actors on set. This conversation paired with Deborah's creative bravery is sure to inspire, and have you setting your own outrageous goals.
Deborah's first feature, VIRGIN starring Elisabeth Moss and Robin Wright, was nominated for two 2004 Independent Spirit Awards, including Best Actress for Elisabeth Moss and the John Cassavetes Award. Her second feature, “Hounddog,” starring Dakota Fanning and Robin Wright was nominated for the Grand Jury Prize at the 2007 Sundance Film Festival. Deborah's third feature, “Split,” won Best of Show at the 2016 Female Eye Film Festival.
Deborah made her television directorial debut on Ava DuVernay & Oprah Winfrey’s heralded drama QUEEN SUGAR in 2019 and followed immediately with two episodes of the first season of DuVernay's CHERISH THE DAY. Since then, she has directed episodes of STAR TREK: DISCOVERY, FBI: INTERNATIONAL, OUTER RANGE & TALES OF THE WALKING DEAD.
Deborah is developing her next features PILGRIM'S WILDERNESS, THE CASSANDRA & DIRT RHAPSODY, as well as her series A WITHC IN HARLEM, and limited series RADIOACTIVE MOTHERS. As a creator, she is especially interested in giving a voice to women’s untold stories.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi everyone. Today on What's My Frame?
I'm joined by director and filmmaker Deborah Campmeyer.
This episode is so extraordinarily special.
Deborah shares her beautiful creative journey of becoming a
filmmaker. She originally studied acting at
the National Shakespeare Conservatory.
However, after graduation, she said, as she calls it, an
impossible goal that altered hercareer.
(00:23):
This goal took her far from home, only to return a changed
artist with filmmaking capturingher heart.
We chat about her exquisite workon HBO's critically acclaimed
period drama The Gilded Age and how she builds trust and holds
valuable space for her actors onset.
This conversation paired with Deborah's creative bravery and
honesty is sure to inspire and have you setting your own
(00:44):
outrageous goals. Now let's get to the
conversation. Hey Deborah, welcome to What's
my Frame? How you doing?
Good. Thank you so much for having me.
It's a thrill to be here with you.
If you don't mind starting this off, what was your creative
origin story? And we also like to talk a lot
about mentorship here on the show.
(01:05):
So if there's any influential mentors or teachers that helped
shape your your creative eye, we'd love to.
We'd love to hear about that as well.
Yeah, I think, you know, I started off as an actress.
Well, actually I would say I started off as a cellist.
I started playing the cello in 3rd grade.
Or actually, I started with the violin.
(01:25):
But my parents made me practice in my bedroom 'cause they
couldn't tolerate the sound of the squeaking and because I
didn't like being alone in my bedroom practicing, I didn't
practice. So they said I had to quit.
And then my teacher at elementary school, and it was
not a great elementary school, but I lucked out in that I had
(01:47):
this great, you know, music teacher said to my parents,
she's really talented. Why don't you try the cello?
It doesn't squeak. So I shifted to the cello and I
actually was, I was third in thestate, you know, in terms of
like, I was a real player and I was in the, you know, Youth
(02:07):
Orchestra and the there was a like a cello choir that I was
part of. And it was just a whole thing.
And I think for me, it was really a great place to 1st have
my voice because I think over the years I discovered through
acting, you know, and then as weget into this podcast, you know,
(02:29):
I found that I needed to be a filmmaker to really express my
voice. But those tender moments of
first expressing a lot of pain and rage in my life that didn't,
you know, we were talking beforethe show.
We're from the South. And that's stuff that you don't,
especially as a woman express. And so the cello was such a
(02:49):
voice for me to express my griefand pain and rage.
I think, and I've never said this before this question just,
you know, is tying this in for me right now.
But, you know, I then actually pursued acting.
I came to New York to be an actress because I, I, I remember
feeling like the musicians weren't wild enough or
(03:14):
something. Do you know, there was a way in
which I needed to like, be crazyand wild.
And so acting was the place I could like, really express.
And then when I came to New York, I studied at the National
Shakespeare Conservatory for twoyears, and it's now defunct.
But at the time, it was great for me.
Five days a week, really a deep immersion.
(03:36):
And then, you know, I was pursuing acting and I had a
really great acting teacher, Michael Howard, who's no longer
with us. But, you know, he really held a
space for that thing that the cello held, which was like, I
could express my my pain and my rage.
And I think at a certain point Iwas, you know, his technique,
(03:58):
really you, you brought your ownsecrets in.
And so I was bringing my secretsin and weaving them into like
scenes like Of Mice and Men and things like that, that were
really, you know, I was able to slip my secrets in.
And I think at a certain point Irealized, wait, I actually need
to just tell my story. And then I became a filmmaker
(04:18):
and started telling my story. And so that's interesting.
I've never seen the threat of starting with the cello, but I
love that so much. I.
Love that and I, I, I so can relate and I think there are
certain people that are placed on this earth with just this
need to expel that creativity, expel their emotions through
(04:41):
sharing them. And I think for some people it
is, it is much more of a personal thing.
And I, I mean, I, I completely relate.
And oh, that's really beautiful.And I, it's so interesting how
you wanted to be with others andthat, and then the, oh, I love
that. I love that you produced and,
and directed a project to show your acting skills to open up
(05:04):
more opportunities, which then informed you that directing was
actually your true passion. And I'm curious, where in that
process did you start identifying more as a director
than an actor? I think when it was over, so
like I was in this program at the Actors Information Project,
which also is no longer in existence, but they had a
program called Risk and it was an 11 week workshop and on the
(05:28):
first day of the workshop you set an impossible goal.
I like to now when I give this sort of challenge to people, I
say an outrageous goal 'cause I think even the word impossible
sort of has a you know, it, it, it bring, it calls forth a
result that maybe we don't want.Right.
Yeah. My impossible goal was to act in
(05:49):
Vim vendor's next movie. And he had just made Wings of
Desire, which I'd seen up at Lincoln Center.
And I was just like, so taken byit, it was like, that's the kind
of acting I want to do. That's the kind of art I want to
make. And anyway, it was in this
workshop that that was my goal. And then it's like, OK, how am I
going to reach that goal? Because you spend the first five
(06:10):
weeks creating a six week actionplan, right?
And at first I thought I was going to make a video like fan
letter for them. And in the process I realized,
oh, I have my own story to tell.And I ended up, you know, before
crowdfunding was crowdfunding, like I sent a letter out with
(06:31):
this like, like 23 year old heart and it like, it's so
embarrassing really telling my dreams and asking for 20 bucks.
And it was snail mail time, right?
We didn't have even e-mail. And I sent this letter to like
everyone in my Rolodex, which was like 300 people.
And in two weeks, I got 1600 bucks in the mail.
And I rented a 16mm camera. I wrote the script in a week.
(06:55):
I went and shot it over a weekend with just three of us
and it was just like thrilling. And I, it was before, you know,
indie film was indie film. And I was telling everybody my
dream. Like Jim Jarmusch had just made
Stranger Than Paradise, so everybody and their brother was
not yet making indie films. So I was able to tell my story
(07:16):
and I was like sitting in an editing room, like next to
Martin Scorsese for free, you know, for two weeks editing.
It was crazy and so I had gottenan American Express card on the
first day of the workshop. Someone Co signed one with me
and I bought my ticket for Berlin for the last day and I I
went to Berlin, knocked on the door them wasn't there.
(07:39):
He was in Paris. I think I went every day.
I brought this woman flowers andcandies.
The secretary who hated I didn'tspeak German.
You know, my goodness, at a certain point in this workshop
also was like this networking thing and someone had given me
Peter Falk's home phone number, right?
(08:01):
So I called Peter Falk. I get his answering machine, you
know. Hello, this is Peter Falk.
Leave. And that's it.
And I'm like, I mean, your actorfriends will probably understand
this, but I was like sobbing, you don't know me, but I made a
movie for film vendors and I can't reach him.
And would you call him and tell him I'll come to Paris?
You know, it was ridiculous. Of course I did not get a call
(08:22):
back. Of course I didn't meet rim
vendors. But I flew home 2 weeks later
and my entire life was changed. That was the moment you asked.
Like, when did you know? It was when I came home.
I didn't get the acting job, butI was like, I'm a filmmaker.
I, it was the most alive I'd ever been in my life ever those
(08:45):
five weeks. And it was like, oh, this is
what I'm meant to do, you know? And that was the shift.
My ego was very caught up in proving to everyone I could make
it. So it took me about five years
to do the full transition. But I wrote a screenplay, my
first feature. I raised money very similarly,
only I had an e-mail, you know, at that point.
(09:05):
So it was emails asking for 75. No, it was $750.
And then when people would say Idon't have it, I'd say get 10
friends together and do 75 buckseach.
And it was just a similar sort of fundraising to make my first
feature, but that was it. I came back and I was like 00.
And that's what I always said tomy students when I was teaching
(09:27):
acting, actually. I would say like, go after what
you think you want as hard as you possibly can, and you're
going to be LED where you're meant to go, you know?
And what is that? It's that it's that cheesy
saying on all the Hallmark cards, like shoot for the moon
and you'll land somewhere. But that's the that's what
happened, yeah. I love it because I think so
(09:51):
often the arts can be very insular and and we don't
sometimes push out of our environment.
And I think that's so beautiful that it took going to Europe,
but when you came home, home didn't feel the same as it did
before. And I think that self-awareness,
(10:13):
but also the openness to be redirected by the craft and the
universe is so powerful because I think so often we do just
especially in times of, you know, transition and it's moving
under our feet and the industry just continues to do that.
It's so easy to just be like, well, no, I'm going to keep
going on this one path because it's gonna, it's gonna hit
(10:36):
sometime. And I, I think sometimes you
have to be open to open to the redirect and, and there's a lot
of joy in that actually. And how, how did that transition
go for you from, you know, starting as a filmmaker and a
storyteller into the episodic space and then also, you know,
writing and producing and directing your own work?
(10:56):
How did that transition into thethe mainstream, like streaming
and network TV? Well, I was really, you know, so
I raised the financing for four feature films.
It was the only way really to get the stories I wanted to tell
told. It was pre me too.
And no one wanted to hear rape stories.
And that's what all mine were, you know.
So it's like, you know, I had one.
(11:19):
Of the reasons I wanted to have you here, I am.
Strong female story, yes. So I made those features,
raising the financing. It was like, no joke doing that,
you know, but it was what I did.And the whole time I was trying
to get into TV, but those doors were so locked shut, right?
And, you know, it was just a handful.
(11:39):
And also even in commercials, itwas just a handful of white men,
older white men doing it. And then Ava, you know, started
Queen Sugar and her commitment to hiring all women directors.
And, you know, I've been in a study that Stacey Smith at the
(12:01):
Annenberg Institute does the, you know, the percentages of
women female identified film makers.
And she's now expanded into other studies.
But I was in a study, I think itwas around 2010.
And it was what happened to the women directors who've been
(12:22):
nominated for the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance between 2000
and 2010. Spoiler alert, nothing.
Where it's like all the guys hadtwo picture deals or five
picture deals, right? Yeah.
So that was the study. And, you know, one day her
assistant sent out an e-mail andforgot to BCC everyone.
So I had all the emails suddenlyof every woman who'd been
(12:43):
nominated for the Grand Jury Prize between 2000 and 2010.
I was one of them. So I was in that study, hustler
that I am. I wrote to every single person
on that list. And some people wrote back.
And Ava was one of the people that wrote back.
And she was not, you know, Ava yet.
And she and I stayed in touch and I would send her, you know,
(13:03):
an e-mail whenever she had some new success and congratulating
her. And she would sometimes write
back and she sometimes wouldn't.And I remember I had finished my
4th feature. I was really like, in that shift
of like, I'm not going to identify as a starving artist
anymore. Like I've got to shift this.
(13:23):
I've got to shift this. And I was meditating 1 morning
and, and I just got this hit Koleva.
And so I sent her an e-mail and said, I'm coming out to Lai
would love to meet to talk aboutQueen Sugar.
I would love to be a part of that family.
And I didn't hear back. Right, Which, OK.
(13:44):
And then two weeks later, I got the call from the production
office saying, can you fly down to New Orleans tomorrow?
They needed me in 12 hours to take over a position, A director
had to drop out and I flew down.12 hours later I was on set
prepping my first episode of television, and it hasn't
(14:07):
stopped since. And it's all because of Ava
opening that door. I also do want to applaud you
though, for all of the work and the foundation that you you have
built because we're not preparedfor that opportunity.
That was seven years of e-mail. I, I, I literally emailed her
regularly for seven years and then that happened.
Wow, what was that experience being on set was?
(14:30):
Did it feel familiar from all ofyour past work?
It was, I mean, I was certainly nervous, but I'm also of the
mind that if you're not nervous,like I say this also to my
students, I would say if you're not nervous, then I'm worried
about you. You're nervous because it's
important to you, right? So there were some nerves, but
once I was there, I mean, one ofthe things I have to say about
(14:51):
the way Ava set this up, she shebrought on producing director
and she really her intention wasfor these women to succeed.
It wasn't like prove yourself, you know, she really set us up
for success. So my producing director was
Cheryl Dunya, who I was like, are you kidding me?
Like I was such a fan of her work.
I was a little, I had to fan outwhen I first met her.
(15:13):
I had to say, you know, like, OK, I'm going to step into my
director's shoes, but give me two minutes to like get on my
knees and tell you how great I think you are and how you've
like influenced me as an artist.So but she was there and she was
there if we needed support and she was there to say, look, here
are the rules of this show, hereare the rules of TV.
(15:33):
This is the, these are the linesyou need to play inside of.
And so I was really set up for success.
But to be honest, I'd made 4 features and it's the same thing
except interestingly, you know, I think my indie features was
really like running with weights, right?
You take them off because suddenly, you know, I have a
(15:55):
crew. Like my last feature was
$250,000. So you can imagine who I can
hire on that budget, right? And so to suddenly have, you
know, the toys to play with, like on that show, that's not a
big budget show, Queen Sugar, but I still had I got 1 crane
day, I got one drone day, I got,you know, 1/3 camera day.
(16:18):
You know, like there's ways in which I could really play and
say, OK, here's when I want to do my big shot.
And here's what you know, in ways that I couldn't do on my
features. I even like with with Gilded Age
now it's like, are you kidding me?
Like that show, I get to play insuch a big sandbox and it's just
(16:41):
so liberating to get to go and meet my vision because I have
the budget to do that. Like I think my features are
certainly closer to my vision content wise in terms of
execution. I get closer to my vision on
television because I have the crew, the toys, the tools to
(17:03):
like meet it, right? So something really powerful and
gratifying about being able to, you know, envision something
that I can actually meet, right?I'm curious with your acting
background and understanding howon a very personal level, how
actors process notes and and allof the extenuating of voices and
(17:29):
circumstances, how do you like to work with your actors on set?
How do you like to partner and build that foundation of trust
and collaboration with them? Well, I like to do it in
advance. I don't think it's so
interesting to me because I've gotten feedback that most
directors on TV don't do this. But I do reach out.
(17:50):
I, I research every actor I'm working with, even if it's a day
player, I reach out. I share like what I love about
them in the show. And also, if they haven't been
in the show, they're real or they're audition or work I've
seen them in, and I'm very specific about what moves me
about them. And I think that's a true
(18:13):
starting point. It's genuine for me.
Like I truly feel like what actors do is like the greatest
gift to humanity. Like they reveal their souls so
we can see our own. I really believe that.
And so for me, like I have the utmost respect for actors and I
think that, you know, it's not fair how they're treated a lot
(18:34):
of times, you know, it's like, what do you you wait, we're
going to spend 2 hours lighting the scene.
And then you want the actors to just turn the switch and like,
they get 2 takes and that's it. And you move on.
Which is true. I essentially do 2 takes, but I
also want to give space and holdspace for the actors to do their
best work. So for me, that means in prep
(18:57):
Ioffer to meet with them. You know, some actors will want
to sit down and have a meal withme, some actors will want to
have a quick Zoom call, some actors will want to just meet me
at the blocking rehearsal. And I'm fine with any of those.
You know, it's like whatever best serves that actor is what
I'm here to do. And because I like started as an
(19:18):
actor, taught acting for 35 years, I might not know every
path in, but I pretty much I know the traditional paths in
and I know how to hold space forany variation on those themes.
So I like to find out, if possible in prep, how an actor
likes a director to hold space for them.
(19:40):
Like, are you someone who wants to be spoken to in actions?
I mean, that's the big hype. Like, oh, you have to talk to
actors in actions. And I can do that, you know,
threaten her here. But I find most actors actually
secretly don't like actions. I mean, we have to say we do
'cause somehow that became the big standard, you know?
(20:00):
And certainly there are actors who want to be spoken to,
directed with action, and I can do that.
But there are a lot of actors who just want to be talked to
about the story and the imagination and the imaginary
circumstances. And then they're actors who
bring their personal history. And that's really Pooh poohed in
(20:21):
our industry right now. But I make space for that.
If there's an actor that wants me to talk to them about, you
know, their secret history that they're bringing in, I know how
to hold space for that. So and I know how to hold space
for an actor for five actors on set the same day, working in
totally different ways. So I mean, that's what I like to
(20:42):
do when we get to set. I'm very a practical, I guess.
I'm very technical. I, I block, I come to set
knowing the blocking, I block it.
And then if an actor wants to change it, that's totally fine.
I know which actors very early on are like gonna be giving
(21:05):
their all in the first take, even if the camera isn't on
them. So I make sure I get the camera
on them first, right? And I I know which actors need a
little more time to warm up and I'll go to them SEC.
You know, it's my job is to really hold the space and get as
much information as I can so that the actor feels safe and
(21:26):
can do their work. Having worked with directors
that have reached out in advance, from the actor's point
of view, it it is. It's such a gift because you
feel a level of partnership before ever stepping on set.
You feel like you have that person that you need already in
your corner. And there's, there's two
(21:47):
directors that immediately popped to mind and and we're
still friends because it, it started and it was, I felt like
a person, not a line on the callsheet.
And it's very different. And I think that's one of the
superpowers of female directors is that ability to hold each
actor space for them. And it, it's such a gift.
There's a number of shows that you've worked with the same
(22:09):
actors several times over a number of seasons.
And I'm curious how you you all pair and continue to like push
that character in the story forward.
I really trust my actors know their characters better than I
do. And so I think like a second
season or a third season that you're stepping into with an
(22:30):
actor, you're just continuing the conversation.
You know how it is when you've got those friends that you don't
talk to you for years. But when you connect, it's like
you no time has elapsed. And it feels like when you go
back to a show, it's like time collapses and you're right back
in it and you now have a common language you don't have to
(22:52):
establish. So it's very like fun and easy
to step right in. And it's really, you know, the
story is what's propelling, you know, an expansion, hopefully,
right, like on Gilded Age, like Season 3, people are gonna have
so much fun watching it. You know, a show like that, it's
(23:15):
like each season has to get moredramatic.
And so the drama is so high in Season 3.
It is so fun. It is so dramatic.
And so just having to like, you know, when the script is
demanding that you raise the stakes that much, you know,
that's it's done for you essentially.
And then again, it's really about keeping an eye when the
(23:39):
stakes are that high on the truth and the in the
performance, right? And like letting an actor know,
OK, we're going to like, go for it and I've got your back.
Like I'm watching, I'm not goingto let you make a fool of
yourself. In a way, it's more like
watching, right? I'm really watching for them.
I'm holding the space and watching and not just watching
out for them, but like I like tosit next to a camera so they
(24:03):
feel me, they're with them and they can even some actors like
to do it for me in a way. Do you know, it's like they need
an audience there and I'm their biggest fan in those moments.
And like, so I don't know if that answers your question, but
I think it's like that sort of the world we're stepping into
when we're coming back. I remember watching the first
episode of Gilded Age and I was like just blown away by the
(24:28):
opulence and just the ornatenessof every single element.
You could see that everyone was working at their highest level
and there's been such attention to detail to bring the
craftspeople from every categoryand to to make something that
was important to the studio work.
(24:48):
And, and that I think sometimes in in the current iteration of
the industry where we are tryingto get something out, that time
and attention to detail is not always taken at that at that
level or no, it's not. I always have felt like there's
a lot of similarities between, you know, actor and auditioning
for a project and episodic director and and bringing
(25:09):
themselves into a project of finding like where your
creativity and the show's creativity intersect and how
that you can go forward. And I'm curious how you like to
go through pre production and and how you like to bring
yourself and your ideas to a project and those you know, tone
and concept meetings. Coming onto ATV show, you're
coming on as a guest director into an environment that's
(25:30):
already really oftentimes fully established.
If not, you know, certainly the outline is there for you when
you step in, right? And like, you were really
serving your showrunner's vision.
And so it's very different than when I'm doing my own feature
that I wrote and directed and produced where it's all me,
(25:51):
right? And I actually love being a
guest director. There's something about it
that's been really inspiring to me.
And I think part of that is, andI've said this before, so
forgive me if if everyone's heard me say this a gazillion
Times Now, but I see coming ontoa show as a guest director, like
going to a dinner party. When you go, when you're invited
(26:14):
to a dinner party, you're a guest.
You do not change the menu. And I think a lot of directors
think their job is to change themenu when they come onto a show.
But my job, the way I see it, like you call the host and you
ask what they are preparing and then you go and you find the
perfect bottle of wine to pair with their meal, right?
(26:36):
So that when their guests, not yours, but their guests, take a
bite into that food and then sipthe wine you brought, your wine
explodes the flavor of the meal that's already there wide open.
And the pleasure is just, you know, heightened based on you
being thoughtful about what you're bringing, not based on
(27:00):
you coming in and bulldozing down the sandbox and creating a
new one, right? Like, And so there's something
quite fun for me and like, like,I will watch my DPS.
Of course, I'm watching dailies.I'm watching the season prior.
If I'm coming into a second or third or fourth season, you
(27:20):
know, I'm really learning the show.
If it's a first season show, I'mlearning all of the players.
I'm learning the DPS, I'm looking at their work.
I'm looking at the production designers work I'm looking at.
I'm certainly looking at dailies'cause I haven't done a pilot
yet. And really trying to learn the
(27:42):
show, learn the players, you know, whoever the creative
department heads are, and not just the DP, but the, you know,
the props, the, the props master, the, you know, the sound
department. Like I'm trying to learn
everybody so that I can come in.And again, the same way I do
(28:04):
with actors. I'm trying to hold space for
everybody to do their best job, right.
And then I'm also looking, I'm reading the script and looking
for where what is in this episode?
What is the thing I resonate with in terms of story?
What is it that aligns with whatI'm trying to say as a woman in
(28:28):
this world? Right.
So like for Gilded Age, like my very first episode on Gilded Age
in season 2 is the second episode.
And the fun thing with with Gilded Age is Julian like sort
of writes it like a radio play in a way where you're getting a
lot of dialogue and and very limited like instruction for
(28:48):
setting up the scene. So like that scene started in
the script that George was walking down the hall past his
Bertha. She says, are you going to talk
to her? He says, yes.
And I'm thinking about it. I'm like thinking about this
mother and daughter. I have a daughter very close to
the same age. And I'm thinking about, look, it
(29:10):
doesn't matter what century we're in, that mother daughter
relationship, I guarantee you, is the same as it is now.
And so I had this idea of like, this poor man being stuck
between these two screaming women, right?
And so I put like, Bertha behindthe closed door with George,
like screaming about her daughter and then her daughter
(29:32):
behind the closed door screamingabout her mother and this man
having to be the go between. You know that for me, it was
like, what is it like, OK, thereare all of these, like, rules in
society for a woman about how you present.
But when you're behind closed doors, what is that?
And I bet you it's exactly the same as it is now.
(29:54):
And so for me, it was like, what's it like for a woman
behind closed doors? With what I leaned into in that
first season, that's what it waslike interesting to me, right?
And so how do I and so that's how I brought myself, you know,
to that the, that season. And of course, I'm, there are
other things that have to be, you know, created and stories
(30:22):
that have to be told. I'm, I know how to do that
right. I'm going to make sure all of
those stories are being told. But that's my little secret in
there that I'm going to like keep like, you know, like, like
like scratching that itch, you know, is my, is my wine for the
for the season, you know? Yeah, no, I, I love that.
And I, I think that's something that the show has done so
(30:44):
beautifully is pairing this opulence and grandeur that we in
modern society love to look backon and see just the glamour of
what life was like. But it is also we're getting
taken inside. It's not just seeing the
beautiful architecture that you still could perhaps walk by on
(31:07):
the streets of New York and see what history still stands, but
you're getting to go inside. And I think that's, that's the,
that's the curious part that we're all, you know, drawn
towards. There is such a just a
lighthouse laser focus with the actors.
There is such a specificity and a just the nuanced.
(31:28):
Each character is so defined, sodefined and and those actors
have done such a beautiful job. Do you have a favorite storyline
or scene from the Gilded Age andand any of your episodes that
you have favorite memories of how it came to life?
There's, I can't give it away yet, but there is a scene in
(31:48):
episode 5 that I just love. It's a romantic scene and it's
between 2 characters who are falling in love.
And I just had an idea about howwe would shoot it that felt very
like elevated and I got permission to do it and it was
just like, I just love it so much.
(32:10):
It's I remember my my grip saying to me, we don't do these
kinds of shots on this show. I'm like, I know, isn't this
cool? Like so it was a lot of fun to
get to lean into the emotion of the romance.
Like that's what season 3 for mehad a lot of romance in it.
And and so leaning into that both just the emotional like the
(32:36):
space you get to hold for an actor, you know, emotionally,
but also to meet that with. Visual language.
When you do have one of those big ideas, how do you go about
pitching this idea? You know, ultimately it's the
showrunner who's going to like, say, Oh yeah, I love that.
But like on this show on Gilded Age, it's slightly different in
(32:59):
terms of who you're talking to about things.
It was more the producer that I was talking to and the DP.
And sometimes you have to come up with storyboards and like we
have an amazing visual effects on the Gilded Age.
So you know, I can pre visit things like there was a stunt
(33:20):
that I had a very particular idea for that seemed outrageous
and I was able to get my visual effects artist to pre visit and
it got approved. So you know, when you're when
you're pushing outside the box of the show, then you know, you
do have to demonstrate it a little bit, you know, because
(33:40):
like TV and Hindi film actually like there is no time for error
like that. Well, that's not true.
There's always errors, right? There's always a problem you
have to solve. So you're always, I mean, that's
your big job as a director is making decisions to solve
whatever problems of the day ever isn't right.
But but you know, time is reallyvaluable and you know, like
(34:07):
going back to the earlier conversation of meeting with
direct with actors ahead of timebecause like on the day,
especially for like a day player, like we hit the ground
running and do not stop running,right?
So to have that prep done ahead of time is essential.
Otherwise you're going to fall back into whatever the formula
is for that show. So I think it's really about
(34:30):
prepping the your with your DP, prepping with your producers, if
there's something different you wanted to do.
And then you also have to make sure you still have time get
traditional coverage for TV. You really have to do that.
So, you know, if you have an idea you have to figure out with
your AD, like, OK, how can we schedule this day so I can do
(34:54):
my, my specialty shot and also cover it traditionally?
Because at the end of the day, I, that's my responsibility as a
director to my studio and my network is there is ATV formula
that I have to meet? And then if my idea Trump's it,
cool, right. Like if my idea is better and
(35:18):
they use it excellent. And like, if I can get three of
those into an episode, I'm winning.
That's the Triple Crown. There you go.
What have been the gifts of working on a show like the
Gilded Age with these sets and the costumes?
What have been some of the giftsto you and the actors?
(35:38):
I mean I'm I'm sure it must feelvery like full and immersive,
but I'm curious how else it has helped with like the physicality
and just the world that you are creating.
I think the, the wardrobe, like I've heard like Morgan and
Kerry, like the moment you step into that wardrobe, it's like at
least 50% of your work is done for you, right?
(35:59):
Like, and the wild thing about these wardrobes is these
costumes is they're so the, our,our costume designer Kasha is so
dedicated to the authenticity. I mean, it is unbelievable.
These are not. These are actual pieces that are
so detailed down to every stitch, you know?
(36:21):
So putting that on immediately, you're transformed, right?
Like that's just what it is. Same thing with the spaces.
The spaces are a character. I mean, you know, you step in to
those Newport rooms and like, I remember speaking to a woman who
had been part of the Historical Society and she did tours and
(36:44):
she, along with all the other tour guides, would stay between
the red ropes and talk about what happened in these rooms.
And I remember speaking to her and hearing how they had watched
like Season 1 all together and they were all crying because
suddenly the rooms that they hadtalked about that they had never
gotten to enter. We had the incredible privilege
(37:06):
of entering these spaces and bringing these worlds to life,
right? And so these are actual spaces.
We're working. And of course, we have our
stages, which are incredible in our back lot, which is
incredible. But we're also in these actual
spaces. Wow, that it's a character,
right? It's really truly a character.
(37:27):
And so I think also these actorsstepping into these spaces, it's
just unbelievable, these worlds that you're stepping into the
actual rooms of. So that's also informing
performance for me as a director.
What I love about the wardrobes and the spaces is the audience
wants to see them. And so back to this idea of like
(37:50):
my specialty shots, you know, onthis show, I know if I do some
really cool opening shot to a scene, it's going to remain
intact because actually the audience does want to see this
space and they do want to see these costumes.
And so the network and studio are not going to cut immediately
(38:11):
to a close up like they are on my procedural drama where I do
this really cool shot and they don't give a shit because all
they want to do is jump into my close up, right.
In this particular show, I get to choreograph.
I love choreographing shots. So I know that.
And my DP is not going to like be tortured because he knows
it's going to be cut. Like the number of shows I'm on
(38:32):
where the DP is like, all right,we'll do this because it's cool
and you're an artist and whatever, but you know, it's not
going to end up in the episode. So I'm just going to all this
effort for you, you know, and your director's cut, because my
director's cut gets turned in like a feature film.
And then what airs is something entirely different, right.
(38:52):
But on Gilded Age, there is a way in which that wardrobe and
those locations require request,you know, that we remain in
those shots younger. So it's, it's like I can, I can
really do some cool stuff. So I appreciate that about the
wardrobe locations. I think it's so because that was
(39:15):
one of the things that made me fall even deeper in love with
the show is these these beautiful shots of of them
walking and even every single background performer and and the
carriages and everything is so detailed, but it is so immersive
is I mean, even as you were talking, I was thinking a back
of of different sequences and shots that just really stood out
(39:37):
to me from watching the show. And I think that's that's what
we all love as artists. You know, we want things that
are that are memorable and that there's retention on on that
craft. Do you want to shift gears and
talk about other projects too? As much as I build at age, I
think there's probably going to be some similarities.
Because you worked on a number of episodes of FBI
(39:58):
International, another beautiful, beautiful location
shoot. What were some of the gifts, but
also obstacles, perhaps of filming on location in other
countries? Things like that.
I loved that show just for that reason.
Like most of most of the work was done in Budapest.
(40:20):
And I always joke and say, you know, like I love Budapest
because I can point my camera inany direction and look like a
genius, you know, 'cause it's all fucking gorgeous.
It's like unbelievably gorgeous there.
I also love the crew there is sotalented and fun and I also love
(40:41):
10 hour days. It's that no, it's so
interesting. It's like a 10 hour day with
like no lunch or with a working lunch or 1/2 hour lunch.
It's like I'm all for it becauseit's amazing what those two
extra hours give you in terms ofjust your standard of living.
You can go out and sit at a cafeand have a meal after work
(41:05):
instead of just rushing home andcrashing, going right to bed and
getting up. You know, it's, you wouldn't
think those two hours make that much difference in terms of
lifestyle, but it does. And so anyway, all of that to
say, there is a kind of a pleasure in working there just
on like, practical level. Yeah, and in terms of like the
(41:30):
challenges, those are 7-8 day episodes.
Like like you don't, you don't, you're not doing like there's so
much time in a way on Gilded Age, there's not a lot of time
because of all that you have to accomplish.
But on a show like that, you're moving so fast, right?
And so, you know, it's just a different kind of shoot in that
(41:55):
sense. The speed in which we're making
a show, like I remember I think it was Season 1 where because of
a Blizzard that came in, we wereshooting, we were shooting in
the in Austria for Swiss, Swiss Alps.
(42:19):
We were shooting Austrian Alps, where I think Sound of Music was
shot that way too, where we wereshooting Austrian Alps for Swiss
Alps. But there's a Blizzard.
And so we had to go back to shoot at a later date.
And I think I have this right. It was like we went and did
those reshoots two days before the show aired.
(42:46):
Yeah. I mean, people can't see your
face because we're on a podcast.No, it's that kind of speed.
Oh, my gosh. And I was shooting my second
episode, I think that was episode 2, and I was shooting
episode 4. And I took a break from Episode
4 to go shoot those two days in Austria.
And then those got immediately put into the cut aired 2 days
(43:10):
later while I was still shootingon bus Episode 4.
I mean, it's very fast to show like that.
So it's just a different, it's very different.
But it's really lovely to have that world.
And you know, we're doing a lot of shooting in Budapest for,
well, in Hungary for like we were shooting in a town called
Zagat, I think is what it was called to play as Spain.
(43:32):
But it was just like, you know, 40 minutes from Budapest.
So they do travel to many places, but we're seeing a lot
of it. We shot Budapest from Morocco in
the next season. I had an amazing production
designer. I adore him on on that show as
well. And, and like what he did to
(43:54):
create Morocco in Budapest was like mind blowing, you know,
like, so you know, you're just on all these shows.
I have to say, working with so much talent, working with
incredible artists who were at the top of their game.
And so, you know, it's, it's a pleasure.
It's just a pleasure to work in those environments.
(44:16):
I would love to talk about HoundDog and with writing and
directing, what that process waslike for you and what was the
inspiration behind the film. Yeah, it was a very personal
story. So it was me telling a
fictionalized version of a story.
That was something I, I just hadto tell that story.
(44:42):
And, you know, I wrote the script while I was living up in
Garrison, NY. I was single at the time, and it
was just one of those magical writing experiences.
When I was a kid, I had a recurring dream about a snake,
you know, coming up the outside of the wall, spinning in through
(45:05):
the wall and wrapping me up. And so it was a really intense
recurring dream that over the years was really profound
unraveling, if you will, of whatthe meanings were for me.
And anyway, that image was very much at the core of the movie.
And while I was writing the script, I mean, the encounters I
(45:26):
had with snakes, I would take walks.
There was AI was living in Garrison on a dirt Rd. in a
little farmhouse. And I would take walks, not see
a soul and go to this like little lake and skin dip.
And I remember one day I'd takenmy clothes off and put them on
the wall and I was in the water swimming and I came back and
there were like 4 snakes on my clothes.
(45:47):
Uh huh. No, no, no, no, thank you and.
Like my cat brought snakes into my bed.
I mean, it was amazing the ways in which like the scenes I was
writing were playing out around me.
So it was a very mystical experience of writing the
script. Like I said, there's a lot like
(46:11):
I like to talk about my writing as sometimes there's a thick
mask over the story, sometimes it's a thin veil, and sometimes
it's wide open. And so there was a lot of moving
between those, those realms in writing the script so that I
could protect my, my psyche, so that I felt like I could tell
(46:34):
the truth. And this was pretty new to me,
too. So I hadn't come out that this
was my story. So it was, you know, it was a
really, it took five years to raise the financing.
I had $5,000,000 in place five years in a row.
And at the 11th hour, I would betold by the investors I had to
(46:55):
take the rape scene out, and I wouldn't.
And I walked away from financingfive years in a row.
I had Robin attached. At a certain point.
I got Dakota attached and thought, OK, here we go.
And then the financing pulled out.
I was already in Wilmington whenthe financing was pulled out
(47:17):
that last time. And I stayed.
I remember one of my producers called another producer and
said, you know, we need to do anintervention and get Deborah out
of Wilmington, NC. And my other producer, who is my
dear friend and like godmother and my daughter, you know, she
was like, no, we just have to get the money because she's not
leaving until this film is made.It was piecemealing it together
(47:41):
and it was really intense and hard.
And I think though, the hardest part was the controversy that
came out when it came out into the world and how that really,
you know, people say no publicity is bad publicity.
But in this case it was really bad and it really killed the
film. And that was pretty
heartbreaking. And we made it, you know, we
(48:03):
made that film and I stand by that film.
I love that film. It's beautiful in the you can
see the honesty through all of the elements of it.
And I believe it was the fin cannons that were the casting
directors for that one. Is that correct?
Yeah, they were. And I love them, they were so
helpful. Wilmington holds a very fond
(48:25):
place in my heart. What was that process like for
you to find the embodiment of those characters that you knew
so well? Well, so I got Robin attached
very early on because someone gave me sort of a direct to her
and I sent an e-mail. I sent a letter, she read the
letter, she called me. We ended up meeting in person.
She was in Philly doing the Bruce Willis film and she had a
(48:49):
lot of downtime because they were shooting it
chronologically. And so I took, I drove down to
Philly with the plan of a 15 minute, you know, coffee and it
turned into like a full day. And we like bonded over the
story and our the, the way our own personal histories wove
together. And so she became a real ally.
(49:10):
She'd be, she attached herself to play stranger lady and really
stood by my side over those fiveyears.
And at a certain point I had written Virgin.
And I said to her, like, I've got to make my first feature,
I'm going to die. And would you do this film
Virgin? And she was like, yeah, but
(49:33):
like, you should do it for like 10 million.
I'm like, yeah, but that's goingto take me 10 years to raise.
And I'm going to do it this summer, you know, would you do
it? And she's like, yeah, OK, I have
this week time available. And I ended up doing a similar
thing that I did on, you know, the short of of raising the
financing. And I raised $45,000 in five
(49:53):
weeks and prepped for, I think we prepped for three weeks and
then we shot it for 21 days and so and it got nominated for two
Independent Spirit Awards, right?
And I thought, well, here we go,here we go.
And Nope, here we did not go, right.
So then it was another five years, I think, to raise the
(50:18):
financing for Hound Dog. And then and then someone had
said to me, what about Dakota Fanning?
She just done the Denzel Washington film.
And I'm like, yeah, right. Like, OK, you know, fine, send
it to her, but she's not going to do.
It was sort of like my, my feeling like I, I had AI had a
(50:40):
like goddess box that I put things like Oprah into, you
know, I didn't even put Dakota into the goddess box.
Like it was so far out of like the realm of possibility in my
mind. And then I got the call that she
wanted to meet with me and I flew out and sat down across the
table from her. And her mother and her reps were
there. And I just remember there was a
(51:02):
way that it was like so beautiful, the connection we
had. It was like we reached across
the table, took each other by a hand, and we did not let go
until we finished shooting the film.
And I'm just like, we spent a couple of weeks together
painting pottery and getting to know each other.
And it was so beautiful. Our connection and our
relationship and going on to setwith her was, I mean, she's a
(51:28):
genius. Like, like, what she did was
blew my mind. It was so beautiful.
And I felt in this weird way, like she was channeling me or
something, you know, there was just, like, this pure thing that
we had. And yeah.
And I'm also sad about how the controversy really went after
(51:49):
her mom and went after like, I don't give a shit, they come
after me. Of course I give a shit on a
certain level of my ego hurts all of that.
But the way they went after her mom and like it was just
disgusting and. I remember watching the film at
the time and I I've rewatched itmore recently because I've been
working on a, a very personal and very heavy project my own
(52:12):
self. And I've been trying to have
these touchstones of, of honesty.
And do you think it would have had the same reaction if it was
made now? I don't think so.
I like to believe that it would have been a huge success if it
came out now. You know, it feels like it would
have been, you know, elevated inthis post me too era and and who
(52:35):
knows? You know, who knows?
Yeah, I think there's a there's a beautiful shift in acceptance
and acknowledgement of each creative truth Now, like I say
it often, like I would not have wanted to be an actor in the
early 90s not have been mentallyhealthy for me.
(52:56):
I'm very thankful to be, you know, in this time.
But it is sad to me when when projects that have such heart
and such honesty and such an important message and story to
share, certain people can can over shadow that with.
(53:16):
Their projections, you know, despite the critics and the
controversy really coming after it, I have, I have to say, you
know, I've, I still receive emails or letters thanking me
for women thanking me for telling their story.
And so, you know, the critics might say it's over the top and
(53:37):
not believable, but like women from the South especially who
say thank you, you know, that's what matters to me actually is
I've told in telling my personalstory, I've told so many other
women's personal story. And so that's what matters to
me. You gave so many people a voice
that didn't have that opportunity.
As we wind down, I'm curious. This has fed my soul in a way
(54:02):
that I can't really quite tell you.
Just like the inspiration of howyou have championed for yourself
and how you have, you've reachedout to your creative community
to help support you and your ideas.
And I'm curious if you have any advice for actors and creatives
during seasons of quiet, during seasons like we are in of
(54:23):
contraction, how they can investand support themselves?
I, I really feel like you want to do 2 prong approach and one
is you keep doing all the traditional stuff, you keep
doing the auditions, you keep doing the self tapes, you keep,
you know, going to the casting director sessions and, you know,
(54:44):
meet the casting directors and send out your headshots.
And, you know, do all of the, you know, networking and all of
the things you can to put yourself in the room with the
decision makers, you know, stay in class, work on your
instrument, all those things. And then I think simultaneously
(55:06):
really creating your own work. I really think that's important,
whether or not it like, you know, manifests into something
or not. I think getting what you need to
say out, especially as women, right?
Like I always say, like get yourvoice out.
Like even if it's in a whisper or a scream or you vomit it out,
(55:32):
it doesn't matter. Just get it out right, what you
have to say. And I'm a big fan of Julia
Cameron's artist way. And whether or not you do the
artist way or not, I do think writing those 3 morning pages
every day, even I always say to people they're like, you know,
blocked creatives. You know, I, I often times sort
(55:57):
of combine, you know, other teachers around writing and like
open a book of poetry, point your finger on the line, write
it down and then write for threeminutes.
It doesn't always have to be your personal stream of
consciousness, but I do feel like putting at the top of the
(56:19):
page what I really want to say is and then write.
Even if you write, I don't fucking know what I want to say.
And I'm always like, keep that hand moving.
Do not stop your pen and just write.
Fuck. Do you know how many pages of
fuck are in my journals? Just like, fuck, fuck, fuck,
fuck, fuck, fuck. And then when you're sort of run
(56:39):
out of fucks, do you say what I really want to say is I don't
fucking know what I really want to say.
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, Right.
Like, but just the act over and over and over and over and over
and over. Offering space for your own
voice, right? Feels so important to me.
And then also it's I was, I heard a young woman from girls
(57:00):
just want to load trucks. Lulu was speaking and she was
talking so wisely. She's like, I don't know, 20 in
her 20s and she was speaking about to someone about community
and how actually it's it's like,think about it as horizontal
networking, not vertical networking.
And that like the people around you, your friends, those are
(57:23):
your collaborators. Like it's not about like, yes,
of course I was reaching to Ava,but she actually started as a
horizontal outreach. She then became a vertical
outreach, but I established the relationship with her when we
were horizontal, right? Like that sounds funny.
I don't mean in bed horizontal. Exactly what you mean, because
(57:45):
it was, it was a seven-year journey of that it was.
In my circle, right? And so really reach out like if
you say, but I'm not a writer like I'm always like, make a
short like these days you can doeverything on your iPhone.
I'm an outer writer. Go find a writer and say, let's
collaborate on a project and then bring in a director and go
(58:05):
shoot it. You know, I also tell actors
like get a writer to write a piece for you that has a
starring role for, you know, like I, I don't know, you know,
someone who's on Broadway right now, write this script that has
you to his sisters and then go stand at the stage door and hand
(58:26):
the script to her. And who knows, probably she
won't read it. But like you just keep like
doing things that are fun and like it's sort of like me going
to Berlin. Like we talked about at the
beginning. It's like do these outrageous
things. Of course, don't harm anyone,
but you can talk to someone and say, hey, you know, like write a
script for me that I can go take, you know, Jessica Lange's
(58:52):
on Broadway right now. She could play my mother, write
a script for her as my mother and me as her daughter and, and
go stand by the stage door and hand it to her with a letter.
Do you know, like that is something I think you can do
simultaneously while you're doing the traditional paths.
And if nothing else, it's going to stimulate your imagination.
(59:14):
You're going to work out your onyour craft.
You're going to meet people and you're going to be alive and
that's what we need. You can't sit at home waiting.
You've got to, you've got to cultivate your aliveness over
and over again. And I think putting like, like
really thrilling, like, oh, I couldn't do that.
(59:35):
No, there's no way I could do that in doing it.
That's going to make you alive, right?
And so that's what you're looking for is your aliveness,
where it lives in you, how you can like turn it on, how you can
have your friends holding you accountable for doing outrageous
shit to like, like make make it happen, right?
And who knows? You might actually then end up
(59:57):
making, I don't know, Blair Witch or something that ends up
making it a gazillion dollars and you suddenly have a career.
But if not, you've just gotten together with your friends and
you've been alive and you've made art.
And how great is that, you know?They were.
Sadly, our time is up and I the the breadth and the space that
(01:00:17):
you hold and the honesty that you bring as yourself into the
work is just so beautiful. And I I truly look forward to
crossing paths with you again. And I can't thank you enough for
making the time to join us on the podcast.
I know this is going to inspire and help a lot of people, so
thank you. Aura, I appreciate it.
It's been a real pleasure. Hi everyone, thanks for
(01:00:40):
listening and being the absolutebest part of our creative
community here at What's My Frame?
If you'd like to learn more about our guests, please check
out the show notes and please join us on socials at What's My
Frame? To stay in the know for upcoming
events, I'm your host, Laurie Linda Bradley.
We'll see you next Monday.
Hi everyone. Today on What's My Frame?
I'm joined by director and filmmaker Deborah Campmeyer.
This episode is so extraordinarily special.
Deborah shares her beautiful creative journey of becoming a
filmmaker. She originally studied acting at
the National Shakespeare Conservatory.
However, after graduation, she said, as she calls it, an
impossible goal that altered hercareer.
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This goal took her far from home, only to return a changed
artist with filmmaking capturingher heart.
We chat about her exquisite workon HBO's critically acclaimed
period drama The Gilded Age and how she builds trust and holds
valuable space for her actors onset.
This conversation paired with Deborah's creative bravery and
honesty is sure to inspire and have you setting your own
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outrageous goals. Now let's get to the
conversation. Hey Deborah, welcome to What's
my Frame? How you doing?
Good. Thank you so much for having me.
It's a thrill to be here with you.
If you don't mind starting this off, what was your creative
origin story? And we also like to talk a lot
about mentorship here on the show.
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So if there's any influential mentors or teachers that helped
shape your your creative eye, we'd love to.
We'd love to hear about that as well.
Yeah, I think, you know, I started off as an actress.
Well, actually I would say I started off as a cellist.
I started playing the cello in 3rd grade.
Or actually, I started with the violin.
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But my parents made me practice in my bedroom 'cause they
couldn't tolerate the sound of the squeaking and because I
didn't like being alone in my bedroom practicing, I didn't
practice. So they said I had to quit.
And then my teacher at elementary school, and it was
not a great elementary school, but I lucked out in that I had
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this great, you know, music teacher said to my parents,
she's really talented. Why don't you try the cello?
It doesn't squeak. So I shifted to the cello and I
actually was, I was third in thestate, you know, in terms of
like, I was a real player and I was in the, you know, Youth
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Orchestra and the there was a like a cello choir that I was
part of. And it was just a whole thing.
And I think for me, it was really a great place to 1st have
my voice because I think over the years I discovered through
acting, you know, and then as weget into this podcast, you know,
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I found that I needed to be a filmmaker to really express my
voice. But those tender moments of
first expressing a lot of pain and rage in my life that didn't,
you know, we were talking beforethe show.
We're from the South. And that's stuff that you don't,
especially as a woman express. And so the cello was such a
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voice for me to express my griefand pain and rage.
I think, and I've never said this before this question just,
you know, is tying this in for me right now.
But, you know, I then actually pursued acting.
I came to New York to be an actress because I, I, I remember
feeling like the musicians weren't wild enough or
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something. Do you know, there was a way in
which I needed to like, be crazyand wild.
And so acting was the place I could like, really express.
And then when I came to New York, I studied at the National
Shakespeare Conservatory for twoyears, and it's now defunct.
But at the time, it was great for me.
Five days a week, really a deep immersion.
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And then, you know, I was pursuing acting and I had a
really great acting teacher, Michael Howard, who's no longer
with us. But, you know, he really held a
space for that thing that the cello held, which was like, I
could express my my pain and my rage.
And I think at a certain point Iwas, you know, his technique,
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really you, you brought your ownsecrets in.
And so I was bringing my secretsin and weaving them into like
scenes like Of Mice and Men and things like that, that were
really, you know, I was able to slip my secrets in.
And I think at a certain point Irealized, wait, I actually need
to just tell my story. And then I became a filmmaker
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and started telling my story. And so that's interesting.
I've never seen the threat of starting with the cello, but I
love that so much. I.
Love that and I, I, I so can relate and I think there are
certain people that are placed on this earth with just this
need to expel that creativity, expel their emotions through
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sharing them. And I think for some people it
is, it is much more of a personal thing.
And I, I mean, I, I completely relate.
And oh, that's really beautiful.And I, it's so interesting how
you wanted to be with others andthat, and then the, oh, I love
that. I love that you produced and,
and directed a project to show your acting skills to open up
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more opportunities, which then informed you that directing was
actually your true passion. And I'm curious, where in that
process did you start identifying more as a director
than an actor? I think when it was over, so
like I was in this program at the Actors Information Project,
which also is no longer in existence, but they had a
program called Risk and it was an 11 week workshop and on the
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first day of the workshop you set an impossible goal.
I like to now when I give this sort of challenge to people, I
say an outrageous goal 'cause I think even the word impossible
sort of has a you know, it, it, it bring, it calls forth a
result that maybe we don't want.Right.
Yeah. My impossible goal was to act in
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Vim vendor's next movie. And he had just made Wings of
Desire, which I'd seen up at Lincoln Center.
And I was just like, so taken byit, it was like, that's the kind
of acting I want to do. That's the kind of art I want to
make. And anyway, it was in this
workshop that that was my goal. And then it's like, OK, how am I
going to reach that goal? Because you spend the first five
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weeks creating a six week actionplan, right?
And at first I thought I was going to make a video like fan
letter for them. And in the process I realized,
oh, I have my own story to tell.And I ended up, you know, before
crowdfunding was crowdfunding, like I sent a letter out with
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this like, like 23 year old heart and it like, it's so
embarrassing really telling my dreams and asking for 20 bucks.
And it was snail mail time, right?
We didn't have even e-mail. And I sent this letter to like
everyone in my Rolodex, which was like 300 people.
And in two weeks, I got 1600 bucks in the mail.
And I rented a 16mm camera. I wrote the script in a week.
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I went and shot it over a weekend with just three of us
and it was just like thrilling. And I, it was before, you know,
indie film was indie film. And I was telling everybody my
dream. Like Jim Jarmusch had just made
Stranger Than Paradise, so everybody and their brother was
not yet making indie films. So I was able to tell my story
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and I was like sitting in an editing room, like next to
Martin Scorsese for free, you know, for two weeks editing.
It was crazy and so I had gottenan American Express card on the
first day of the workshop. Someone Co signed one with me
and I bought my ticket for Berlin for the last day and I I
went to Berlin, knocked on the door them wasn't there.
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He was in Paris. I think I went every day.
I brought this woman flowers andcandies.
The secretary who hated I didn'tspeak German.
You know, my goodness, at a certain point in this workshop
also was like this networking thing and someone had given me
Peter Falk's home phone number, right?
(08:01):
So I called Peter Falk. I get his answering machine, you
know. Hello, this is Peter Falk.
Leave. And that's it.
And I'm like, I mean, your actorfriends will probably understand
this, but I was like sobbing, you don't know me, but I made a
movie for film vendors and I can't reach him.
And would you call him and tell him I'll come to Paris?
You know, it was ridiculous. Of course I did not get a call
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back. Of course I didn't meet rim
vendors. But I flew home 2 weeks later
and my entire life was changed. That was the moment you asked.
Like, when did you know? It was when I came home.
I didn't get the acting job, butI was like, I'm a filmmaker.
I, it was the most alive I'd ever been in my life ever those
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five weeks. And it was like, oh, this is
what I'm meant to do, you know? And that was the shift.
My ego was very caught up in proving to everyone I could make
it. So it took me about five years
to do the full transition. But I wrote a screenplay, my
first feature. I raised money very similarly,
only I had an e-mail, you know, at that point.
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So it was emails asking for 75. No, it was $750.
And then when people would say Idon't have it, I'd say get 10
friends together and do 75 buckseach.
And it was just a similar sort of fundraising to make my first
feature, but that was it. I came back and I was like 00.
And that's what I always said tomy students when I was teaching
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acting, actually. I would say like, go after what
you think you want as hard as you possibly can, and you're
going to be LED where you're meant to go, you know?
And what is that? It's that it's that cheesy
saying on all the Hallmark cards, like shoot for the moon
and you'll land somewhere. But that's the that's what
happened, yeah. I love it because I think so
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often the arts can be very insular and and we don't
sometimes push out of our environment.
And I think that's so beautiful that it took going to Europe,
but when you came home, home didn't feel the same as it did
before. And I think that self-awareness,
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but also the openness to be redirected by the craft and the
universe is so powerful because I think so often we do just
especially in times of, you know, transition and it's moving
under our feet and the industry just continues to do that.
It's so easy to just be like, well, no, I'm going to keep
going on this one path because it's gonna, it's gonna hit
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sometime. And I, I think sometimes you
have to be open to open to the redirect and, and there's a lot
of joy in that actually. And how, how did that transition
go for you from, you know, starting as a filmmaker and a
storyteller into the episodic space and then also, you know,
writing and producing and directing your own work?
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How did that transition into thethe mainstream, like streaming
and network TV? Well, I was really, you know, so
I raised the financing for four feature films.
It was the only way really to get the stories I wanted to tell
told. It was pre me too.
And no one wanted to hear rape stories.
And that's what all mine were, you know.
So it's like, you know, I had one.
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Of the reasons I wanted to have you here, I am.
Strong female story, yes. So I made those features,
raising the financing. It was like, no joke doing that,
you know, but it was what I did.And the whole time I was trying
to get into TV, but those doors were so locked shut, right?
And, you know, it was just a handful.
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And also even in commercials, itwas just a handful of white men,
older white men doing it. And then Ava, you know, started
Queen Sugar and her commitment to hiring all women directors.
And, you know, I've been in a study that Stacey Smith at the
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Annenberg Institute does the, you know, the percentages of
women female identified film makers.
And she's now expanded into other studies.
But I was in a study, I think itwas around 2010.
And it was what happened to the women directors who've been
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nominated for the Grand Jury Prize at Sundance between 2000
and 2010. Spoiler alert, nothing.
Where it's like all the guys hadtwo picture deals or five
picture deals, right? Yeah.
So that was the study. And, you know, one day her
assistant sent out an e-mail andforgot to BCC everyone.
So I had all the emails suddenlyof every woman who'd been
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nominated for the Grand Jury Prize between 2000 and 2010.
I was one of them. So I was in that study, hustler
that I am. I wrote to every single person
on that list. And some people wrote back.
And Ava was one of the people that wrote back.
And she was not, you know, Ava yet.
And she and I stayed in touch and I would send her, you know,
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an e-mail whenever she had some new success and congratulating
her. And she would sometimes write
back and she sometimes wouldn't.And I remember I had finished my
4th feature. I was really like, in that shift
of like, I'm not going to identify as a starving artist
anymore. Like I've got to shift this.
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I've got to shift this. And I was meditating 1 morning
and, and I just got this hit Koleva.
And so I sent her an e-mail and said, I'm coming out to Lai
would love to meet to talk aboutQueen Sugar.
I would love to be a part of that family.
And I didn't hear back. Right, Which, OK.
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And then two weeks later, I got the call from the production
office saying, can you fly down to New Orleans tomorrow?
They needed me in 12 hours to take over a position, A director
had to drop out and I flew down.12 hours later I was on set
prepping my first episode of television, and it hasn't
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stopped since. And it's all because of Ava
opening that door. I also do want to applaud you
though, for all of the work and the foundation that you you have
built because we're not preparedfor that opportunity.
That was seven years of e-mail. I, I, I literally emailed her
regularly for seven years and then that happened.
Wow, what was that experience being on set was?
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Did it feel familiar from all ofyour past work?
It was, I mean, I was certainly nervous, but I'm also of the
mind that if you're not nervous,like I say this also to my
students, I would say if you're not nervous, then I'm worried
about you. You're nervous because it's
important to you, right? So there were some nerves, but
once I was there, I mean, one ofthe things I have to say about
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the way Ava set this up, she shebrought on producing director
and she really her intention wasfor these women to succeed.
It wasn't like prove yourself, you know, she really set us up
for success. So my producing director was
Cheryl Dunya, who I was like, are you kidding me?
Like I was such a fan of her work.
I was a little, I had to fan outwhen I first met her.
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I had to say, you know, like, OK, I'm going to step into my
director's shoes, but give me two minutes to like get on my
knees and tell you how great I think you are and how you've
like influenced me as an artist.So but she was there and she was
there if we needed support and she was there to say, look, here
are the rules of this show, hereare the rules of TV.
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This is the, these are the linesyou need to play inside of.
And so I was really set up for success.
But to be honest, I'd made 4 features and it's the same thing
except interestingly, you know, I think my indie features was
really like running with weights, right?
You take them off because suddenly, you know, I have a
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crew. Like my last feature was
$250,000. So you can imagine who I can
hire on that budget, right? And so to suddenly have, you
know, the toys to play with, like on that show, that's not a
big budget show, Queen Sugar, but I still had I got 1 crane
day, I got one drone day, I got,you know, 1/3 camera day.
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You know, like there's ways in which I could really play and
say, OK, here's when I want to do my big shot.
And here's what you know, in ways that I couldn't do on my
features. I even like with with Gilded Age
now it's like, are you kidding me?
Like that show, I get to play insuch a big sandbox and it's just
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so liberating to get to go and meet my vision because I have
the budget to do that. Like I think my features are
certainly closer to my vision content wise in terms of
execution. I get closer to my vision on
television because I have the crew, the toys, the tools to
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like meet it, right? So something really powerful and
gratifying about being able to, you know, envision something
that I can actually meet, right?I'm curious with your acting
background and understanding howon a very personal level, how
actors process notes and and allof the extenuating of voices and
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circumstances, how do you like to work with your actors on set?
How do you like to partner and build that foundation of trust
and collaboration with them? Well, I like to do it in
advance. I don't think it's so
interesting to me because I've gotten feedback that most
directors on TV don't do this. But I do reach out.
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I, I research every actor I'm working with, even if it's a day
player, I reach out. I share like what I love about
them in the show. And also, if they haven't been
in the show, they're real or they're audition or work I've
seen them in, and I'm very specific about what moves me
about them. And I think that's a true
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starting point. It's genuine for me.
Like I truly feel like what actors do is like the greatest
gift to humanity. Like they reveal their souls so
we can see our own. I really believe that.
And so for me, like I have the utmost respect for actors and I
think that, you know, it's not fair how they're treated a lot
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of times, you know, it's like, what do you you wait, we're
going to spend 2 hours lighting the scene.
And then you want the actors to just turn the switch and like,
they get 2 takes and that's it. And you move on.
Which is true. I essentially do 2 takes, but I
also want to give space and holdspace for the actors to do their
best work. So for me, that means in prep
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Ioffer to meet with them. You know, some actors will want
to sit down and have a meal withme, some actors will want to
have a quick Zoom call, some actors will want to just meet me
at the blocking rehearsal. And I'm fine with any of those.
You know, it's like whatever best serves that actor is what
I'm here to do. And because I like started as an
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actor, taught acting for 35 years, I might not know every
path in, but I pretty much I know the traditional paths in
and I know how to hold space forany variation on those themes.
So I like to find out, if possible in prep, how an actor
likes a director to hold space for them.
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Like, are you someone who wants to be spoken to in actions?
I mean, that's the big hype. Like, oh, you have to talk to
actors in actions. And I can do that, you know,
threaten her here. But I find most actors actually
secretly don't like actions. I mean, we have to say we do
'cause somehow that became the big standard, you know?
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And certainly there are actors who want to be spoken to,
directed with action, and I can do that.
But there are a lot of actors who just want to be talked to
about the story and the imagination and the imaginary
circumstances. And then they're actors who
bring their personal history. And that's really Pooh poohed in
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our industry right now. But I make space for that.
If there's an actor that wants me to talk to them about, you
know, their secret history that they're bringing in, I know how
to hold space for that. So and I know how to hold space
for an actor for five actors on set the same day, working in
totally different ways. So I mean, that's what I like to
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do when we get to set. I'm very a practical, I guess.
I'm very technical. I, I block, I come to set
knowing the blocking, I block it.
And then if an actor wants to change it, that's totally fine.
I know which actors very early on are like gonna be giving
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their all in the first take, even if the camera isn't on
them. So I make sure I get the camera
on them first, right? And I I know which actors need a
little more time to warm up and I'll go to them SEC.
You know, it's my job is to really hold the space and get as
much information as I can so that the actor feels safe and
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can do their work. Having worked with directors
that have reached out in advance, from the actor's point
of view, it it is. It's such a gift because you
feel a level of partnership before ever stepping on set.
You feel like you have that person that you need already in
your corner. And there's, there's two
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directors that immediately popped to mind and and we're
still friends because it, it started and it was, I felt like
a person, not a line on the callsheet.
And it's very different. And I think that's one of the
superpowers of female directors is that ability to hold each
actor space for them. And it, it's such a gift.
There's a number of shows that you've worked with the same
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actors several times over a number of seasons.
And I'm curious how you you all pair and continue to like push
that character in the story forward.
I really trust my actors know their characters better than I
do. And so I think like a second
season or a third season that you're stepping into with an
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actor, you're just continuing the conversation.
You know how it is when you've got those friends that you don't
talk to you for years. But when you connect, it's like
you no time has elapsed. And it feels like when you go
back to a show, it's like time collapses and you're right back
in it and you now have a common language you don't have to
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establish. So it's very like fun and easy
to step right in. And it's really, you know, the
story is what's propelling, you know, an expansion, hopefully,
right, like on Gilded Age, like Season 3, people are gonna have
so much fun watching it. You know, a show like that, it's
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like each season has to get moredramatic.
And so the drama is so high in Season 3.
It is so fun. It is so dramatic.
And so just having to like, you know, when the script is
demanding that you raise the stakes that much, you know,
that's it's done for you essentially.
And then again, it's really about keeping an eye when the
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stakes are that high on the truth and the in the
performance, right? And like letting an actor know,
OK, we're going to like, go for it and I've got your back.
Like I'm watching, I'm not goingto let you make a fool of
yourself. In a way, it's more like
watching, right? I'm really watching for them.
I'm holding the space and watching and not just watching
out for them, but like I like tosit next to a camera so they
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feel me, they're with them and they can even some actors like
to do it for me in a way. Do you know, it's like they need
an audience there and I'm their biggest fan in those moments.
And like, so I don't know if that answers your question, but
I think it's like that sort of the world we're stepping into
when we're coming back. I remember watching the first
episode of Gilded Age and I was like just blown away by the
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opulence and just the ornatenessof every single element.
You could see that everyone was working at their highest level
and there's been such attention to detail to bring the
craftspeople from every categoryand to to make something that
was important to the studio work.
(24:48):
And, and that I think sometimes in in the current iteration of
the industry where we are tryingto get something out, that time
and attention to detail is not always taken at that at that
level or no, it's not. I always have felt like there's
a lot of similarities between, you know, actor and auditioning
for a project and episodic director and and bringing
(25:09):
themselves into a project of finding like where your
creativity and the show's creativity intersect and how
that you can go forward. And I'm curious how you like to
go through pre production and and how you like to bring
yourself and your ideas to a project and those you know, tone
and concept meetings. Coming onto ATV show, you're
coming on as a guest director into an environment that's
(25:30):
already really oftentimes fully established.
If not, you know, certainly the outline is there for you when
you step in, right? And like, you were really
serving your showrunner's vision.
And so it's very different than when I'm doing my own feature
that I wrote and directed and produced where it's all me,
(25:51):
right? And I actually love being a
guest director. There's something about it
that's been really inspiring to me.
And I think part of that is, andI've said this before, so
forgive me if if everyone's heard me say this a gazillion
Times Now, but I see coming ontoa show as a guest director, like
going to a dinner party. When you go, when you're invited
(26:14):
to a dinner party, you're a guest.
You do not change the menu. And I think a lot of directors
think their job is to change themenu when they come onto a show.
But my job, the way I see it, like you call the host and you
ask what they are preparing and then you go and you find the
perfect bottle of wine to pair with their meal, right?
(26:36):
So that when their guests, not yours, but their guests, take a
bite into that food and then sipthe wine you brought, your wine
explodes the flavor of the meal that's already there wide open.
And the pleasure is just, you know, heightened based on you
being thoughtful about what you're bringing, not based on
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you coming in and bulldozing down the sandbox and creating a
new one, right? Like, And so there's something
quite fun for me and like, like,I will watch my DPS.
Of course, I'm watching dailies.I'm watching the season prior.
If I'm coming into a second or third or fourth season, you
(27:20):
know, I'm really learning the show.
If it's a first season show, I'mlearning all of the players.
I'm learning the DPS, I'm looking at their work.
I'm looking at the production designers work I'm looking at.
I'm certainly looking at dailies'cause I haven't done a pilot
yet. And really trying to learn the
(27:42):
show, learn the players, you know, whoever the creative
department heads are, and not just the DP, but the, you know,
the props, the, the props master, the, you know, the sound
department. Like I'm trying to learn
everybody so that I can come in.And again, the same way I do
(28:04):
with actors. I'm trying to hold space for
everybody to do their best job, right.
And then I'm also looking, I'm reading the script and looking
for where what is in this episode?
What is the thing I resonate with in terms of story?
What is it that aligns with whatI'm trying to say as a woman in
(28:28):
this world? Right.
So like for Gilded Age, like my very first episode on Gilded Age
in season 2 is the second episode.
And the fun thing with with Gilded Age is Julian like sort
of writes it like a radio play in a way where you're getting a
lot of dialogue and and very limited like instruction for
(28:48):
setting up the scene. So like that scene started in
the script that George was walking down the hall past his
Bertha. She says, are you going to talk
to her? He says, yes.
And I'm thinking about it. I'm like thinking about this
mother and daughter. I have a daughter very close to
the same age. And I'm thinking about, look, it
(29:10):
doesn't matter what century we're in, that mother daughter
relationship, I guarantee you, is the same as it is now.
And so I had this idea of like, this poor man being stuck
between these two screaming women, right?
And so I put like, Bertha behindthe closed door with George,
like screaming about her daughter and then her daughter
(29:32):
behind the closed door screamingabout her mother and this man
having to be the go between. You know that for me, it was
like, what is it like, OK, thereare all of these, like, rules in
society for a woman about how you present.
But when you're behind closed doors, what is that?
And I bet you it's exactly the same as it is now.
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And so for me, it was like, what's it like for a woman
behind closed doors? With what I leaned into in that
first season, that's what it waslike interesting to me, right?
And so how do I and so that's how I brought myself, you know,
to that the, that season. And of course, I'm, there are
other things that have to be, you know, created and stories
(30:22):
that have to be told. I'm, I know how to do that
right. I'm going to make sure all of
those stories are being told. But that's my little secret in
there that I'm going to like keep like, you know, like, like
like scratching that itch, you know, is my, is my wine for the
for the season, you know? Yeah, no, I, I love that.
And I, I think that's something that the show has done so
(30:44):
beautifully is pairing this opulence and grandeur that we in
modern society love to look backon and see just the glamour of
what life was like. But it is also we're getting
taken inside. It's not just seeing the
beautiful architecture that you still could perhaps walk by on
(31:07):
the streets of New York and see what history still stands, but
you're getting to go inside. And I think that's, that's the,
that's the curious part that we're all, you know, drawn
towards. There is such a just a
lighthouse laser focus with the actors.
There is such a specificity and a just the nuanced.
(31:28):
Each character is so defined, sodefined and and those actors
have done such a beautiful job. Do you have a favorite storyline
or scene from the Gilded Age andand any of your episodes that
you have favorite memories of how it came to life?
There's, I can't give it away yet, but there is a scene in
(31:48):
episode 5 that I just love. It's a romantic scene and it's
between 2 characters who are falling in love.
And I just had an idea about howwe would shoot it that felt very
like elevated and I got permission to do it and it was
just like, I just love it so much.
(32:10):
It's I remember my my grip saying to me, we don't do these
kinds of shots on this show. I'm like, I know, isn't this
cool? Like so it was a lot of fun to
get to lean into the emotion of the romance.
Like that's what season 3 for mehad a lot of romance in it.
And and so leaning into that both just the emotional like the
(32:36):
space you get to hold for an actor, you know, emotionally,
but also to meet that with. Visual language.
When you do have one of those big ideas, how do you go about
pitching this idea? You know, ultimately it's the
showrunner who's going to like, say, Oh yeah, I love that.
But like on this show on Gilded Age, it's slightly different in
(32:59):
terms of who you're talking to about things.
It was more the producer that I was talking to and the DP.
And sometimes you have to come up with storyboards and like we
have an amazing visual effects on the Gilded Age.
So you know, I can pre visit things like there was a stunt
(33:20):
that I had a very particular idea for that seemed outrageous
and I was able to get my visual effects artist to pre visit and
it got approved. So you know, when you're when
you're pushing outside the box of the show, then you know, you
do have to demonstrate it a little bit, you know, because
(33:40):
like TV and Hindi film actually like there is no time for error
like that. Well, that's not true.
There's always errors, right? There's always a problem you
have to solve. So you're always, I mean, that's
your big job as a director is making decisions to solve
whatever problems of the day ever isn't right.
But but you know, time is reallyvaluable and you know, like
(34:07):
going back to the earlier conversation of meeting with
direct with actors ahead of timebecause like on the day,
especially for like a day player, like we hit the ground
running and do not stop running,right?
So to have that prep done ahead of time is essential.
Otherwise you're going to fall back into whatever the formula
is for that show. So I think it's really about
(34:30):
prepping the your with your DP, prepping with your producers, if
there's something different you wanted to do.
And then you also have to make sure you still have time get
traditional coverage for TV. You really have to do that.
So, you know, if you have an idea you have to figure out with
your AD, like, OK, how can we schedule this day so I can do
(34:54):
my, my specialty shot and also cover it traditionally?
Because at the end of the day, I, that's my responsibility as a
director to my studio and my network is there is ATV formula
that I have to meet? And then if my idea Trump's it,
cool, right. Like if my idea is better and
(35:18):
they use it excellent. And like, if I can get three of
those into an episode, I'm winning.
That's the Triple Crown. There you go.
What have been the gifts of working on a show like the
Gilded Age with these sets and the costumes?
What have been some of the giftsto you and the actors?
(35:38):
I mean I'm I'm sure it must feelvery like full and immersive,
but I'm curious how else it has helped with like the physicality
and just the world that you are creating.
I think the, the wardrobe, like I've heard like Morgan and
Kerry, like the moment you step into that wardrobe, it's like at
least 50% of your work is done for you, right?
(35:59):
Like, and the wild thing about these wardrobes is these
costumes is they're so the, our,our costume designer Kasha is so
dedicated to the authenticity. I mean, it is unbelievable.
These are not. These are actual pieces that are
so detailed down to every stitch, you know?
(36:21):
So putting that on immediately, you're transformed, right?
Like that's just what it is. Same thing with the spaces.
The spaces are a character. I mean, you know, you step in to
those Newport rooms and like, I remember speaking to a woman who
had been part of the Historical Society and she did tours and
(36:44):
she, along with all the other tour guides, would stay between
the red ropes and talk about what happened in these rooms.
And I remember speaking to her and hearing how they had watched
like Season 1 all together and they were all crying because
suddenly the rooms that they hadtalked about that they had never
gotten to enter. We had the incredible privilege
(37:06):
of entering these spaces and bringing these worlds to life,
right? And so these are actual spaces.
We're working. And of course, we have our
stages, which are incredible in our back lot, which is
incredible. But we're also in these actual
spaces. Wow, that it's a character,
right? It's really truly a character.
(37:27):
And so I think also these actorsstepping into these spaces, it's
just unbelievable, these worlds that you're stepping into the
actual rooms of. So that's also informing
performance for me as a director.
What I love about the wardrobes and the spaces is the audience
wants to see them. And so back to this idea of like
(37:50):
my specialty shots, you know, onthis show, I know if I do some
really cool opening shot to a scene, it's going to remain
intact because actually the audience does want to see this
space and they do want to see these costumes.
And so the network and studio are not going to cut immediately
(38:11):
to a close up like they are on my procedural drama where I do
this really cool shot and they don't give a shit because all
they want to do is jump into my close up, right.
In this particular show, I get to choreograph.
I love choreographing shots. So I know that.
And my DP is not going to like be tortured because he knows
it's going to be cut. Like the number of shows I'm on
(38:32):
where the DP is like, all right,we'll do this because it's cool
and you're an artist and whatever, but you know, it's not
going to end up in the episode. So I'm just going to all this
effort for you, you know, and your director's cut, because my
director's cut gets turned in like a feature film.
And then what airs is something entirely different, right.
(38:52):
But on Gilded Age, there is a way in which that wardrobe and
those locations require request,you know, that we remain in
those shots younger. So it's, it's like I can, I can
really do some cool stuff. So I appreciate that about the
wardrobe locations. I think it's so because that was
(39:15):
one of the things that made me fall even deeper in love with
the show is these these beautiful shots of of them
walking and even every single background performer and and the
carriages and everything is so detailed, but it is so immersive
is I mean, even as you were talking, I was thinking a back
of of different sequences and shots that just really stood out
(39:37):
to me from watching the show. And I think that's that's what
we all love as artists. You know, we want things that
are that are memorable and that there's retention on on that
craft. Do you want to shift gears and
talk about other projects too? As much as I build at age, I
think there's probably going to be some similarities.
Because you worked on a number of episodes of FBI
(39:58):
International, another beautiful, beautiful location
shoot. What were some of the gifts, but
also obstacles, perhaps of filming on location in other
countries? Things like that.
I loved that show just for that reason.
Like most of most of the work was done in Budapest.
(40:20):
And I always joke and say, you know, like I love Budapest
because I can point my camera inany direction and look like a
genius, you know, 'cause it's all fucking gorgeous.
It's like unbelievably gorgeous there.
I also love the crew there is sotalented and fun and I also love
(40:41):
10 hour days. It's that no, it's so
interesting. It's like a 10 hour day with
like no lunch or with a working lunch or 1/2 hour lunch.
It's like I'm all for it becauseit's amazing what those two
extra hours give you in terms ofjust your standard of living.
You can go out and sit at a cafeand have a meal after work
(41:05):
instead of just rushing home andcrashing, going right to bed and
getting up. You know, it's, you wouldn't
think those two hours make that much difference in terms of
lifestyle, but it does. And so anyway, all of that to
say, there is a kind of a pleasure in working there just
on like, practical level. Yeah, and in terms of like the
(41:30):
challenges, those are 7-8 day episodes.
Like like you don't, you don't, you're not doing like there's so
much time in a way on Gilded Age, there's not a lot of time
because of all that you have to accomplish.
But on a show like that, you're moving so fast, right?
And so, you know, it's just a different kind of shoot in that
(41:55):
sense. The speed in which we're making
a show, like I remember I think it was Season 1 where because of
a Blizzard that came in, we wereshooting, we were shooting in
the in Austria for Swiss, Swiss Alps.
(42:19):
We were shooting Austrian Alps, where I think Sound of Music was
shot that way too, where we wereshooting Austrian Alps for Swiss
Alps. But there's a Blizzard.
And so we had to go back to shoot at a later date.
And I think I have this right. It was like we went and did
those reshoots two days before the show aired.
(42:46):
Yeah. I mean, people can't see your
face because we're on a podcast.No, it's that kind of speed.
Oh, my gosh. And I was shooting my second
episode, I think that was episode 2, and I was shooting
episode 4. And I took a break from Episode
4 to go shoot those two days in Austria.
And then those got immediately put into the cut aired 2 days
(43:10):
later while I was still shootingon bus Episode 4.
I mean, it's very fast to show like that.
So it's just a different, it's very different.
But it's really lovely to have that world.
And you know, we're doing a lot of shooting in Budapest for,
well, in Hungary for like we were shooting in a town called
Zagat, I think is what it was called to play as Spain.
(43:32):
But it was just like, you know, 40 minutes from Budapest.
So they do travel to many places, but we're seeing a lot
of it. We shot Budapest from Morocco in
the next season. I had an amazing production
designer. I adore him on on that show as
well. And, and like what he did to
(43:54):
create Morocco in Budapest was like mind blowing, you know,
like, so you know, you're just on all these shows.
I have to say, working with so much talent, working with
incredible artists who were at the top of their game.
And so, you know, it's, it's a pleasure.
It's just a pleasure to work in those environments.
(44:16):
I would love to talk about HoundDog and with writing and
directing, what that process waslike for you and what was the
inspiration behind the film. Yeah, it was a very personal
story. So it was me telling a
fictionalized version of a story.
That was something I, I just hadto tell that story.
(44:42):
And, you know, I wrote the script while I was living up in
Garrison, NY. I was single at the time, and it
was just one of those magical writing experiences.
When I was a kid, I had a recurring dream about a snake,
you know, coming up the outside of the wall, spinning in through
(45:05):
the wall and wrapping me up. And so it was a really intense
recurring dream that over the years was really profound
unraveling, if you will, of whatthe meanings were for me.
And anyway, that image was very much at the core of the movie.
And while I was writing the script, I mean, the encounters I
(45:26):
had with snakes, I would take walks.
There was AI was living in Garrison on a dirt Rd. in a
little farmhouse. And I would take walks, not see
a soul and go to this like little lake and skin dip.
And I remember one day I'd takenmy clothes off and put them on
the wall and I was in the water swimming and I came back and
there were like 4 snakes on my clothes.
(45:47):
Uh huh. No, no, no, no, thank you and.
Like my cat brought snakes into my bed.
I mean, it was amazing the ways in which like the scenes I was
writing were playing out around me.
So it was a very mystical experience of writing the
script. Like I said, there's a lot like
(46:11):
I like to talk about my writing as sometimes there's a thick
mask over the story, sometimes it's a thin veil, and sometimes
it's wide open. And so there was a lot of moving
between those, those realms in writing the script so that I
could protect my, my psyche, so that I felt like I could tell
(46:34):
the truth. And this was pretty new to me,
too. So I hadn't come out that this
was my story. So it was, you know, it was a
really, it took five years to raise the financing.
I had $5,000,000 in place five years in a row.
And at the 11th hour, I would betold by the investors I had to
(46:55):
take the rape scene out, and I wouldn't.
And I walked away from financingfive years in a row.
I had Robin attached. At a certain point.
I got Dakota attached and thought, OK, here we go.
And then the financing pulled out.
I was already in Wilmington whenthe financing was pulled out
(47:17):
that last time. And I stayed.
I remember one of my producers called another producer and
said, you know, we need to do anintervention and get Deborah out
of Wilmington, NC. And my other producer, who is my
dear friend and like godmother and my daughter, you know, she
was like, no, we just have to get the money because she's not
leaving until this film is made.It was piecemealing it together
(47:41):
and it was really intense and hard.
And I think though, the hardest part was the controversy that
came out when it came out into the world and how that really,
you know, people say no publicity is bad publicity.
But in this case it was really bad and it really killed the
film. And that was pretty
heartbreaking. And we made it, you know, we
(48:03):
made that film and I stand by that film.
I love that film. It's beautiful in the you can
see the honesty through all of the elements of it.
And I believe it was the fin cannons that were the casting
directors for that one. Is that correct?
Yeah, they were. And I love them, they were so
helpful. Wilmington holds a very fond
(48:25):
place in my heart. What was that process like for
you to find the embodiment of those characters that you knew
so well? Well, so I got Robin attached
very early on because someone gave me sort of a direct to her
and I sent an e-mail. I sent a letter, she read the
letter, she called me. We ended up meeting in person.
She was in Philly doing the Bruce Willis film and she had a
(48:49):
lot of downtime because they were shooting it
chronologically. And so I took, I drove down to
Philly with the plan of a 15 minute, you know, coffee and it
turned into like a full day. And we like bonded over the
story and our the, the way our own personal histories wove
together. And so she became a real ally.
(49:10):
She'd be, she attached herself to play stranger lady and really
stood by my side over those fiveyears.
And at a certain point I had written Virgin.
And I said to her, like, I've got to make my first feature,
I'm going to die. And would you do this film
Virgin? And she was like, yeah, but
(49:33):
like, you should do it for like 10 million.
I'm like, yeah, but that's goingto take me 10 years to raise.
And I'm going to do it this summer, you know, would you do
it? And she's like, yeah, OK, I have
this week time available. And I ended up doing a similar
thing that I did on, you know, the short of of raising the
financing. And I raised $45,000 in five
(49:53):
weeks and prepped for, I think we prepped for three weeks and
then we shot it for 21 days and so and it got nominated for two
Independent Spirit Awards, right?
And I thought, well, here we go,here we go.
And Nope, here we did not go, right.
So then it was another five years, I think, to raise the
(50:18):
financing for Hound Dog. And then and then someone had
said to me, what about Dakota Fanning?
She just done the Denzel Washington film.
And I'm like, yeah, right. Like, OK, you know, fine, send
it to her, but she's not going to do.
It was sort of like my, my feeling like I, I had AI had a
(50:40):
like goddess box that I put things like Oprah into, you
know, I didn't even put Dakota into the goddess box.
Like it was so far out of like the realm of possibility in my
mind. And then I got the call that she
wanted to meet with me and I flew out and sat down across the
table from her. And her mother and her reps were
there. And I just remember there was a
(51:02):
way that it was like so beautiful, the connection we
had. It was like we reached across
the table, took each other by a hand, and we did not let go
until we finished shooting the film.
And I'm just like, we spent a couple of weeks together
painting pottery and getting to know each other.
And it was so beautiful. Our connection and our
relationship and going on to setwith her was, I mean, she's a
(51:28):
genius. Like, like, what she did was
blew my mind. It was so beautiful.
And I felt in this weird way, like she was channeling me or
something, you know, there was just, like, this pure thing that
we had. And yeah.
And I'm also sad about how the controversy really went after
(51:49):
her mom and went after like, I don't give a shit, they come
after me. Of course I give a shit on a
certain level of my ego hurts all of that.
But the way they went after her mom and like it was just
disgusting and. I remember watching the film at
the time and I I've rewatched itmore recently because I've been
working on a, a very personal and very heavy project my own
(52:12):
self. And I've been trying to have
these touchstones of, of honesty.
And do you think it would have had the same reaction if it was
made now? I don't think so.
I like to believe that it would have been a huge success if it
came out now. You know, it feels like it would
have been, you know, elevated inthis post me too era and and who
(52:35):
knows? You know, who knows?
Yeah, I think there's a there's a beautiful shift in acceptance
and acknowledgement of each creative truth Now, like I say
it often, like I would not have wanted to be an actor in the
early 90s not have been mentallyhealthy for me.
(52:56):
I'm very thankful to be, you know, in this time.
But it is sad to me when when projects that have such heart
and such honesty and such an important message and story to
share, certain people can can over shadow that with.
(53:16):
Their projections, you know, despite the critics and the
controversy really coming after it, I have, I have to say, you
know, I've, I still receive emails or letters thanking me
for women thanking me for telling their story.
And so, you know, the critics might say it's over the top and
(53:37):
not believable, but like women from the South especially who
say thank you, you know, that's what matters to me actually is
I've told in telling my personalstory, I've told so many other
women's personal story. And so that's what matters to
me. You gave so many people a voice
that didn't have that opportunity.
As we wind down, I'm curious. This has fed my soul in a way
(54:02):
that I can't really quite tell you.
Just like the inspiration of howyou have championed for yourself
and how you have, you've reachedout to your creative community
to help support you and your ideas.
And I'm curious if you have any advice for actors and creatives
during seasons of quiet, during seasons like we are in of
(54:23):
contraction, how they can investand support themselves?
I, I really feel like you want to do 2 prong approach and one
is you keep doing all the traditional stuff, you keep
doing the auditions, you keep doing the self tapes, you keep,
you know, going to the casting director sessions and, you know,
(54:44):
meet the casting directors and send out your headshots.
And, you know, do all of the, you know, networking and all of
the things you can to put yourself in the room with the
decision makers, you know, stay in class, work on your
instrument, all those things. And then I think simultaneously
(55:06):
really creating your own work. I really think that's important,
whether or not it like, you know, manifests into something
or not. I think getting what you need to
say out, especially as women, right?
Like I always say, like get yourvoice out.
Like even if it's in a whisper or a scream or you vomit it out,
(55:32):
it doesn't matter. Just get it out right, what you
have to say. And I'm a big fan of Julia
Cameron's artist way. And whether or not you do the
artist way or not, I do think writing those 3 morning pages
every day, even I always say to people they're like, you know,
blocked creatives. You know, I, I often times sort
(55:57):
of combine, you know, other teachers around writing and like
open a book of poetry, point your finger on the line, write
it down and then write for threeminutes.
It doesn't always have to be your personal stream of
consciousness, but I do feel like putting at the top of the
(56:19):
page what I really want to say is and then write.
Even if you write, I don't fucking know what I want to say.
And I'm always like, keep that hand moving.
Do not stop your pen and just write.
Fuck. Do you know how many pages of
fuck are in my journals? Just like, fuck, fuck, fuck,
fuck, fuck, fuck. And then when you're sort of run
(56:39):
out of fucks, do you say what I really want to say is I don't
fucking know what I really want to say.
Fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, fuck, Right.
Like, but just the act over and over and over and over and over
and over. Offering space for your own
voice, right? Feels so important to me.
And then also it's I was, I heard a young woman from girls
(57:00):
just want to load trucks. Lulu was speaking and she was
talking so wisely. She's like, I don't know, 20 in
her 20s and she was speaking about to someone about community
and how actually it's it's like,think about it as horizontal
networking, not vertical networking.
And that like the people around you, your friends, those are
(57:23):
your collaborators. Like it's not about like, yes,
of course I was reaching to Ava,but she actually started as a
horizontal outreach. She then became a vertical
outreach, but I established the relationship with her when we
were horizontal, right? Like that sounds funny.
I don't mean in bed horizontal. Exactly what you mean, because
(57:45):
it was, it was a seven-year journey of that it was.
In my circle, right? And so really reach out like if
you say, but I'm not a writer like I'm always like, make a
short like these days you can doeverything on your iPhone.
I'm an outer writer. Go find a writer and say, let's
collaborate on a project and then bring in a director and go
(58:05):
shoot it. You know, I also tell actors
like get a writer to write a piece for you that has a
starring role for, you know, like I, I don't know, you know,
someone who's on Broadway right now, write this script that has
you to his sisters and then go stand at the stage door and hand
(58:26):
the script to her. And who knows, probably she
won't read it. But like you just keep like
doing things that are fun and like it's sort of like me going
to Berlin. Like we talked about at the
beginning. It's like do these outrageous
things. Of course, don't harm anyone,
but you can talk to someone and say, hey, you know, like write a
script for me that I can go take, you know, Jessica Lange's
(58:52):
on Broadway right now. She could play my mother, write
a script for her as my mother and me as her daughter and, and
go stand by the stage door and hand it to her with a letter.
Do you know, like that is something I think you can do
simultaneously while you're doing the traditional paths.
And if nothing else, it's going to stimulate your imagination.
(59:14):
You're going to work out your onyour craft.
You're going to meet people and you're going to be alive and
that's what we need. You can't sit at home waiting.
You've got to, you've got to cultivate your aliveness over
and over again. And I think putting like, like
really thrilling, like, oh, I couldn't do that.
(59:35):
No, there's no way I could do that in doing it.
That's going to make you alive, right?
And so that's what you're looking for is your aliveness,
where it lives in you, how you can like turn it on, how you can
have your friends holding you accountable for doing outrageous
shit to like, like make make it happen, right?
And who knows? You might actually then end up
(59:57):
making, I don't know, Blair Witch or something that ends up
making it a gazillion dollars and you suddenly have a career.
But if not, you've just gotten together with your friends and
you've been alive and you've made art.
And how great is that, you know?They were.
Sadly, our time is up and I the the breadth and the space that
(01:00:17):
you hold and the honesty that you bring as yourself into the
work is just so beautiful. And I I truly look forward to
crossing paths with you again. And I can't thank you enough for
making the time to join us on the podcast.
I know this is going to inspire and help a lot of people, so
thank you. Aura, I appreciate it.
It's been a real pleasure. Hi everyone, thanks for
(01:00:40):
listening and being the absolutebest part of our creative
community here at What's My Frame?
If you'd like to learn more about our guests, please check
out the show notes and please join us on socials at What's My
Frame? To stay in the know for upcoming
events, I'm your host, Laurie Linda Bradley.
We'll see you next Monday.
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