169. Betsy Ware Fippinger // Casting Director

Episode Transcript
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(00:01):
Hi everyone. Today and what's my frame?
I'm doing my casting director, Betsy Weir Fibiger.
Betsy has trained under some of the best casting directors in
New York, including Meredith Tucker and Ellen Lewis.
As a casting associate and assistant, she worked on
projects directed by Steven Spielberg, Horton Scorsese, Bo
Berman, just to name a few. Betsy won an Ardeos Award for
her work as the casting associate on the pilot project

(00:22):
of The Marvelous Mrs. Maisel. Betsy's openness and heart for
actors is evident in this conversation.
We chat about creative process and a few of her recent
projects, including the beautiful film Familiar Touch
and Griffin and Summer. One of my favorite quotes from
this episode is doing what you love regardless of the outcome.
Now let's get to this very special conversation.

(00:46):
Hey, Betsy, welcome to What's MyFrame?
How you doing? I'm doing so well, thank you for
having me. I'm so excited for the
conversation. For anyone who isn't familiar,
we like to start everything kindof the same way around here of
just like your origin story. What drew you to a career in the
arts? What keeps you inspired?
Yeah. So my origin story is I grew up

(01:09):
in Williamstown, MA, so that's where the Williamstown Theater
Festival is. And when I was growing up, it
was like, really the heyday of the Williamstown Theatre
Festival. Like it was just this magical
place. And every summer there would be
a new famous actor that was there for the summer and, you

(01:29):
know, the end. Yeah.
And I would go see these plays. I would see my parents would get
a season pass, and I would go kind of see everything there.
And I also was in plays there. And so to me, it was just my
local theater And I, I got that like it was a big deal that a

(01:51):
certain movie star was there. But I still, I think I had a
sense that like in every five towns, like, you know, in every
fifth, like they would have a theater like this.
And it was only when I was a teenager and I started watching
the Actors Studio TV show like you know when.
And he would be like, tell me about Williamstown and he would

(02:12):
always like focus on it. And I was like, Oh my God, this
is a big deal, you know. But so I was always in all of
the plays in school and in high school, acting was like my
thing. But but doing those theater
festival shows, I did 3 shows there, you know, really gave me,
I, I just so romanticized. Like it was amazing being

(02:35):
backstage. It was amazing being on stage
with these performers. I was in The Legend of Oedipus
with Joe Morton and Tony Goldwyn, Jane Kazmerek.
I was in the Rose Tattoo with Marisa Tomei and she would bring
me into her dressing room every night before a show and like, we

(02:56):
would make a wish on this like rock together that her
grandmother gave her and like wish for a good show.
And she was like, so kind to me.And I was doing scenes with
Maria Tucci and James Naughton. And, and so I, I just so to be
like 7-8 years old and have those experiences was a really

(03:18):
magical thing and, and it made me really passionate and I and
something that's kind of a themethat we can come back to later.
But it's interesting. I would choose like I did this
summer theater camp every year and I would get the lead in that

(03:38):
every year. But then if I would get a part
at the Williamstown Theatre Festival, I would have to make a
choice. Do I take my 2 lines at
Williamstown Theatre Festival ordo I be the lead of the like Kid
play? And I always chose the theatre
festival because I just felt like it was weird.
Even at 7:00, I kind of understood that to have two
lines but be in this amazing space with these amazing people

(04:01):
was kind of a better life experience.
And so I kept doing plays and, and in high school did the
plays. And then by the end of high
school, I was like, I again, I chose to be in a regional
production of Midsummer Night's Dream, overdoing the high school
production because they were going to use teenagers as the

(04:24):
lovers in Midsummer. So I was very serious about
acting. And then I and I went to
Wesleyan University and, you know, I was an actor there.
The first part I got there was this amazing part and kind of
like really launched me into a nice college.
Like I got to be offer only for the rest of college basically.

(04:46):
I mean, I had to audition. I had to like walk in the
audition room and then people would just be like, so you're
going to do the part, you know. But so I, so I loved acting.
I studied it. I studied it in college and some
of the friends that I had in college theater are still doing
it. Like I was one of my good

(05:06):
friends was John Bellman, who's now on Broadway and he was in
Tootsie and he was, he's always in a Broadway show.
He was just in Smash. And so it was a huge passion.
And what happened was I and I really kind of slowly, but I'm a
very practical person. And so this collision kind of

(05:30):
slowly started of me getting older and realizing I just
thought like, well, this doesn'treally happen to anyone.
Like this is a dream that I have, but it's not practical.
And I'm kind of never going to like really make it.
It's going to be a hard Rd. But it but there was still, you

(05:52):
know, the passion, but this was kind of starting to percolate of
like, is this reasonable? And I didn't come from a family
where they were going to be ableto financially support me.
And so it's just the reality wassetting in.
I spent a summer earning money just working from 6:00 AM to
11:00 PM every day to earn moneyover 1 summer in order to the

(06:14):
next summer do an acting Conservatory at the Actor Center
in New York. And so I earned the money 1
summer to pay for it the next. And I did this acting
Conservatory and it was kind of like a mini grad school.
Like we did mask and clown and movement and acting lessons and
voice and, and it was a great experience.

(06:37):
And there was a day when they were just really talking more
realistically about the profession.
And they had this kind of serious talk with us where they
said, look, if you can do anything else, do that.
And it, it was like a, and it was just like, if you like
anything else, if, if this is just something you're good at

(07:00):
versus like you have to do it. They said the road is just so
hard that if you don't feel likethis is what you have to do.
And I just thought to myself, like, I really love offices.
Like, I love, you know, like, I love being in an office.
I had office jobs growing up, too.
And it's like, I love being at adesk and, and like, working on

(07:22):
my office documents and turning them in.
And I love, like, and. And I just thought like, this
isn't the only thing I have to do.
This is what everyone tells me I'm good at.
And this is what I get attentiondoing.
Yeah. But that really hit me of like,
oh, if you know, it was this kind of like get out now kind of

(07:43):
warning. And and so that was like another
part of that. And so then I graduated college
and I decided what I was going to do was for one year I was
going to act in New York. And the whole plan, the whole
time was to just do it one year.And that would kind of scare me
out of doing it. And that's exactly what

(08:04):
happened. The first audition I got was for
a Richard Forman show downtown. I got the part and for nine
months I was paid $1000 to rehearse all fall and then be in
the show all spring. Because you don't have a line.
So he had these like interns andso you had no lines.
So they could pay you like $500.00 for the fall and $500.00

(08:25):
for the spring. Per weaker in total.
In total, I made $1000 for nine months of work working for
Richard Foreman. I couldn't afford peanut butter.
I was borrowing money from my brother, from my boyfriend, and
during the rehearsal period whenthe show went up, I then could
have a nine to five job. So I would go get to work at

(08:47):
like 8:30 every morning and thenI'd be in the show till 11 at
night. And I was only 23, but there
were 30 year olds doing the samething.
And they also couldn't afford peanut butter.
And that was when it was really like, oh, this is exactly what I
was looking for out of this experience of like, this is not

(09:10):
going to be sustainable for me. And I also didn't, I find that a
lot of actors who are successfullong term are very good at the
organization of it. It's like they know how to like
get their head shots and go to the classes and they know what
they need to work on and do. I felt I didn't have parents who

(09:33):
were explaining to me what I could do.
Didn't know anything about it. I just felt like I was in the
middle of New York City and I had no idea how to get from
point A to point BI felt completely like flooded and
overwhelmed. And I wasn't someone who could
just kind of like structure, youknow, I was like 2 ADDI couldn't

(09:55):
like set up a structure for myself.
And I was just like, this is notthe thing.
Like this is, you know, like I am not gonna make it.
And the other thing about me being an actor that was
interesting was I think I was very good at it.
But one of the reasons I was good at it is I was very, very
good at judging acting. Like when I would be in an

(10:17):
acting class, I would have a sense of what the person needed
to do. And then the acting teacher
would say the same thing. And, and I learned like, oh, I'm
very good at analyzing acting. And so the problem was for me as
an actor myself, I could have written a 20 page essay about
why I wasn't Meryl Streep and would never be Meryl Streep.

(10:41):
And those were the things in my head of like, oh, these are the
things I can't do. So even though everyone was
telling me I was so good at it, I knew kind of what my
weaknesses were. I knew what my problems were
going to be in my career. Like I was very good at being
real on stage was very good at kind of like having no, just

(11:02):
being very present and real. But I did not understand how to
do different things with my voice or my body.
Like, you know, and it's so it'slike I could do Shakespeare in a
way that made it very real to people.
But it's like, other than doing that one thing, if I was going
to have any kind of harder thing, I wasn't in touch enough
with my body. I what my voice was not an

(11:24):
instrument I had control over. And so I was too aware of what I
wasn't good at. Yeah.
And the only reason I'm going. I know this is way too long a
story, but I'm talking about allthis.
It's amazing. And it's like, yeah, so just
like it's slight tangent, literally on page 2 of my notes,

(11:45):
I talk about like rewatching your work, there's this
commonality and this thread of this humanity and this
groundedness in the characters that you cast.
And it's so interesting to hear you talk about that was your
strength as an act. Anyway, I'm loving it kinda.
That's amazing that's here. I've never had someone watch all
of my work and analyze it, so that's amazing to know that

(12:06):
there's a thread. I always like to see like the
visual signature of someone's work.
I think if you, I think when youare living in your authenticity
and just enjoying your work, theindustry kind of informs you of
what your lane is. And it kind of like the river
direction when that path not to be too like woo Hoo, but like is

(12:29):
if you're working and enjoying yourself, you're not looking
around, you're not looking at competition.
And then someone will just say, Oh, that's, that's like your
strength, that's where you thrive.
But anyway, sorry, I digress. Please, no.
That's amazing to hear that there's like a thread and that
you see that in my work. And yeah, I just think I'm
saying this all to say, like, I understand how hard it is to be

(12:50):
an actor. I have a true love of acting.
I truly thought that that was what I was going to do.
And I have such respect for actors and what it's like, my
least favorite thing is any casting director I've ever seen.
And it has never been the best ones or the, you know, it's,

(13:12):
it's mainly been like associatesor assistants who didn't make it
or you know it. I don't like if I ever hear any
kind of disrespect of an actor because it's like for me, anyone
who's an actor is doing something that I couldn't do
that I stepped away from and felt like, oh, that's a mountain
I can't climb. And so I have huge respect for

(13:36):
anyone coming into an audition. It's like the vulnerability it
takes and the belief in yourselfto keep going and I find really
inspiring. And but anyway, so I have this
Richard Foreman experience and Ithink, OK, that's exactly what I
was looking for is like a giant no from the universe.

(13:56):
Like this is not it. And so I, my boyfriend at the
time, who then became my husbandwas moving to LA because he
didn't like winter with a bunch of our friends and like getting
a house in LA. So I thought, OK, I was a film
major at Wesleyan and so I thought, OK, I'll go be an
assistant. So I was like a Hollywood

(14:17):
assistant. I worked at William Morris for
two years for a talent agent. And I got to be on, you know, 4
phone calls at once, but always hearing his phone calls and it,
it was so instructive. And then from there I worked at
HBO for a year as the assistant to the head of drama series and
saw how that world functioned. And so then I my then fiance was

(14:45):
applying to grad school and I had told him he could only apply
in New York or LA and so that I could keep working and he threw
one application into Indiana University.
He got into only Indiana University.
So I left my job at HBO, moved to Indiana, and then I got AI

(15:06):
was like, what am I going to do in the middle of Indiana?
So I got a degree in nonprofit arts administration while I was
there because I thought, well, maybe I'll open up like an indie
movie theater or something in whatever town he ends up being a
professor in. And so at the end of that time
when he liked it but didn't loveit enough to kind of move us to

(15:29):
Nebraska, I said like, let's like go back to New York and I
can like re enter the industry. And at this point we had a baby
and his family was in New York and so it was an easier place to
be. And so I was thinking about
whether to try to be an work at an agency or at a management
company. And I had about 5 different

(15:51):
friends who were all in the industry and knew me really
well, kind of stop me and say like you need to be in casting.
And it's funny because here I had worked for a talent agent,
but because he wasn't a coveringagent, I never actually talked
to the casting director. I only like heard the
conversations with the actors themselves.

(16:13):
So I still didn't really think of casting as a thing, even
though when I was at HBO, like, I didn't want to read the
scripts. I wanted to watch the auditions.
And that watching the auditions was my favorite part.
And yet I still hadn't thought of.
It's just such an unseen profession.
And so I heard all these friendssaying this, and I thought, OK.

(16:36):
And I emailed someone who had gone to Wesleyan who I didn't
know at all, had never met Amelia McCarthy.
And I had a friend of a friend with her and she was in casting
and she worked for Ellen Chenoweth at the time.
And, and I just said, how do I, you know, I'm a friend of Jen's,
like, how do I do this? And she said, I'll send your

(16:58):
resume to Meredith Tucker because she also went to
Wesleyan. And so she sent it.
And Meredith said, well, I don'ttake interns.
But since you went to Wesleyan, I'll, you know, I'll let you
kind of sit in the office and answer the phone and listen.
And the second you get a paid job, you can go, but you can
just sit here and learn. And, and so I was in Meredith's

(17:19):
office for a few weeks and then I got my first assistant job and
left for that. And that assistant job was hard.
And there were a lot of things that were hard about it, but I
was allowed to be in the room asan assistant, being the one like
doing the taping and and being in charge of the camera.
And after the first day of auditions, I felt like this is

(17:43):
the one. It was like falling in love.
I was just like, this is the most fascinating thing I've ever
done in my life. And I had thought I wouldn't
like casting because I thought, well, don't the producers and
director kind of pick the top three people and then you're
just casting like one line rolesor something?
But this first audition I was inwas for a smaller part on a

(18:05):
different thing that I wasn't working on.
And I was just like, Oh my God, hearing 20 people say 5 lines
differently is fascinating. And I realized, oh, I love the
smaller roles. Like those are fascinating.
They're still some of my favorite parts to cast.
Like, I love, I love those roles.
And so I just immediately was like, oh, yeah, I get to sit at

(18:29):
a desk and I get to just talk topeople about actors and acting
and who would be right and who'sa good actor and who still needs
time to be a better actor and who, you know.
And it was just like, oh, this is, I can take the part of
myself that loves being in an office and the part of myself

(18:50):
that loves to act and like it's finally has a place, you know?
And so I was 32 or something andI had a baby and I was just
like, OK, this is my career. And then had to start having
these assistant jobs where the associate would be, you know, 26
and I'd be 32 and I'd have to like go to take care of my baby

(19:11):
or I'd have to like, you know, like get a lot of backup child
care so that I couldn't like miss a moment or I could never
take jobs if I knew someone worked till 9:00 every night.
Like I had to turn those jobs down.
And, and so, you know, it was just this very interesting Rd.,
But what I loved about being an assistant and learning was so

(19:33):
many people had started in casting when they were 2223.
And here I, I knew what it was like to be an agent and I knew
what it was like to be at the network.
And so I would hear my bosses ona phone call in a negotiation.
And I would think like the agents just lying.
Like the client would do this for $20,000 and they're saying

(19:54):
they'll walk if it's not 40,000.But I could just tell when a
situation was a lie. Or I could tell.
And that and, and I just thought, gosh, those past
experiences, like they really are going to help color this for
me. And also just being older and
learning. I, you know, I worked for such
amazing casting directors who were so good at what they did.

(20:16):
And I feel like learning from them in an older age, I could
really appreciate how good they were at what they did, how hard
their jobs were, you know, and rather than thinking I could do
this better because I'm 22, justgoing, oh, wow, this is a very
hard job. And they are really expertly
handling the situation and just really learn the lessons.

(20:40):
I feel like in a very deep way because I kind of understood in
a macro way what was important and not important.
So. So that was like my journey in
and then, and I worked for EllenLewis, Meredith Tucker, I worked
briefly for both Shane and Markowitz and Ellen Chenoweth.
Like, I just made sure that I trained under people who were

(21:02):
geniuses, basically, yeah. No, I love that trajectory and I
love that I'm a firm believer the more vantage points you have
at your career, the better you are at that career.
And it, it, it empowers you so much because just like you were
saying, like you've had behind the doors of the Rep side to see

(21:26):
a lot of that's nonsense. It's not coming from the actor.
I have so much respect for that Conservatory where they, they
had an honest conversation with you all about what your life's
going to look like and like a career point of view.
Because I think so often we havestars in our eyes.
And a lot of these instructors and, and these establishments,

(21:49):
they want to keep that machine going and they want to, to
continue this like magical illusion of, yes, they need more
actors. Like please go chase your dream,
feel all your feelings, howl at the moon.
And they don't talk about the business side of it.
And then you land in a major city or a minor market, and

(22:09):
that's why so many actors are taken advantage of is because
they're being told all of these things and they don't know
what's real and what's needed tobe an investment.
So I really respect them for having that conversation because
I don't think nearly enough young people are given that
honest perspective. Like because if you can't do
anything else. But I mean, I say this as an

(22:30):
actor, like you make sacrifices,but like, do that.
But I think what? What you said too about the
you're a believer in coming at it from every angle.
Like I think it's a good reminder for actors that OK, if
you have to like work as an assistant at that law office
during the day and you think of that as the most annoying thing,

(22:50):
that's actually probably making you really good at legal
language for the procedurals. Or it's just like everything as
an actor, everything is an education because you you can't
just only know about acting or then how do you play all these
different people? So it's like any place you
travel to or person you meet or weird experience you have is all

(23:12):
you know is all part of it. And especially like learning
languages, learning instruments like, that's all very helpful.
With your background, with all of those different creative
outlets and professional outlets, how do you start that
creative process when you're coming onto a project?
How do you like to balance your love of the craft, but also that
business mind in meeting with film makers and deciding whether

(23:36):
you're going onto a project or not?
Yeah, because I've been working on these smaller independent
movies the past five years. The business aspect is so
important. You know, it's much easier to
cast a $20 million movie and have every agent call you and
want the part for their clients and have everyone be willing to

(23:57):
audition. And you know, that's easy.
It's working on $1,000,000 movieand having to convince people to
love it. And then think about like, okay,
how do we use strategy to reallyfigure out like who is someone
who could bring financing, but that would actually want to do
this and why would they want to do this?
And you know, there's so much strategy involved in working on

(24:21):
a smaller movie. But in terms of my creative
process, I mean, I'm sent to script and the first thing I
look at is the producer because,you know, most of the things
coming to me are first time directors and so they might have
a short film. But what I really want to know
is does the producer know how todo everything from like pay

(24:45):
people on time? I don't want to put actors in a
bad situation. So it's like, has the producer
worked on things where they looklike they're a responsible
person who's had real jobs, realmovies?
And then also have they had movies where they shepherded it
and it did get into a major festival or it did, it was
bought by a nice tiny distributor or it was, you know,

(25:09):
so I actually look at the producer first and think about
like, is this someone I want to have a business relationship
with? And because I get sent a lot of
scripts and so if I'm reading a couple a week, I need to like
decide which. So that's the first thing I see
and then I open up the script. And I really try to keep an open

(25:30):
mind when I open the script and think like this could be the
one, this could be the thing I love, you know, and read the
script and just see if I get excited about it and if it
speaks to me. And on an indie film, it has to
be a script that I'm willing to live with for like 5 years.
And so, you know, at the beginning I would, I would come

(25:52):
on to things not realizing that.But now there are movies I all
the time where I think the script is really good.
And it's something I'd be fine working on if I, if you could
tell me it would be 6 months, but like it's likely going to be
5 years. And so I really have to feel
very passionate about the material.

(26:13):
I have to have a reason why I think the story should be told.
I need to feel really passionateabout the director.
Sometimes I really fall in love with a short film they made, or
fall in love with them when I meet them, or fall in love with
their writing. And so I really feel like, OK,
this is an artist I want to helplaunch into the world.

(26:33):
It's all about passion and aboutfinding collaborators to like go
on a longer journey with throughother projects.
So I'm just looking for like, does the person's material speak
to me in a way where I want their art to be in the world?
A lot of indie film makers are first time directors.
Also a number of your projects Inoticed the writer and director

(26:53):
was the same person. Is that been official because
you have the director that you're working with in the
casting process Also has known these characters for so long.
What are the what are the opportunities of or gifts of
having a writer, director, partner versus maybe different
voices in your ear? I almost feel like what the real

(27:16):
difference is for me is someone who has a real point of view
about the material and knows exactly like the tone and the
style and what they're looking for.
And I've worked with writer directors who are, you know, new
and young and haven't done as much where it feels tonally like

(27:38):
I'm not quite sure where they'regoing and I'm not sure what
their point of view is. And I've also worked with people
who, granted, that's on it's on bigger projects when it's not a
writer director. But I've worked a few times with
the director Claire Scanlon on this movie Set it Up that I did
with Meredith as I was the associate on it.
And we just worked on this othermovie with her that we just

(28:00):
finished casting. And she has a very strong point
of view and knows exactly what she's looking for and exactly
the tone. But she hasn't written the
project. And so to me, it's really more
about the clarity of vision. And if if I can, you know,
sometimes you go and you see something you've worked on and

(28:23):
you think, oh, that is not the movie or TV show that was in my
head at all. And sometimes you go and it's
like, oh, that is exactly what was playing in my head.
And the director just so clearlypainted a picture of what this
world was that that the same movie I'm seeing on screen is

(28:43):
the movie that's in my head. And I think the the two times
that's happened the most for me is I was the casting associate
on 8th grade Bo Burnham's movie.And that was he was like maybe
the smartest person I've ever met and most charming person
I've ever met. He was amazing to work with and
he was just so clear about what he wanted that that we knew

(29:06):
exactly when we had found it. And we're so excited to show him
the actor because we just, we knew because he had been so
clear and, and going and seeing that movie at Sundance was it
was the first time I ever saw a movie where the same movie on
screen was the movie that had been playing in my head.
And I had that experience also with this movie I just did or

(29:28):
did a couple years ago, Familiartouch that just came out and it
played at Venice and where that's the movie I thought we
were making the whole time because the director was so
smart and so good at articulating her vision.
And so for me, it's, it's interesting.
It's not as much about a writer director as it is about someone

(29:48):
who's just incredibly clear about what it is they're making.
Yeah, I think that's a beautifulsegue because I wanted to talk
about building out these ensembles and and finding your
cast because something that I love about features is there's a
little bit different structure of time versus episodic.
I mean, from the actor's perspective, a lot of times

(30:09):
you're auditioning for somethingand it's weeks or even months
before you hear something back and, you know, it's coming back,
perhaps even with a different title.
And and you you look back in andyou're like, OK, yeah, I did
audition for then. You know, it's there's, there's
this gap of time. I'm curious from the casting
side, what are those conversations like as you're

(30:30):
building and like adding, addinga headshot to the board and
building out that that world andthat bringing the script to
life? Yeah.
I mean, I think it was Ellen whoused to always say Ellen Lewis
when she would say, like, I'm, you know, building a world.
And, like, these people all haveto live in the same world.

(30:52):
And so that's why it's so important to try to lock into
what the director's vision is. And it's a frustrating creative
process when I feel like I'm notlocked into that because then
it's like, wait, what world are we building?
Like, if you thought that personwas right for the part, then I
don't know what world we're building, you know?
And so you're envisioning this world.

(31:13):
And as you're talking about eachactor, which a lot of the times,
you know, you're attaching the top three or four.
So they're not even auditioning,and you're imagining them
playing the role and seeing if they fit in the world, if they
feel like a person in the world that you're building.
And then as you start building it out, yeah, you have to be

(31:35):
very careful that Do two people really feel like they would be
friends? And is it also visually
interesting? Like, I don't like casting two
people who look too much alike because that's just not only is
it about like you don't want to confuse people who are watching,
but it's not very visually interesting to look at a screen

(31:55):
where like the two best friends look alike the whole time.
And you know, it's just not giving your eye a lot to look at
aesthetically. So it's for me building the
ensemble is about they A live inthe world, but B like they would
be friends within that world. And then C is it visually
interesting to look at? And, and that's what I'm

(32:15):
thinking about too with day players is I'm thinking like,
OK, who else is in the scene they're in?
And what would be someone visually interesting to come in
and like look different and, andhow would that person like pop
aesthetically? So I'm I'm both looking for
something tonally, but also something that's visually
different from the people who will already be in the scene.

(32:37):
Completely open to you, but I think it may be interesting to
to focus on day players because that's the foundation of many,
many actors careers. I'm curious what stands out to
you positively in auditions? What holds your attention
because especially in that day player space, you're kind of
popping in, popping out. You have very limited context

(32:59):
and like the pages that you're you're working with.
Yeah, the number one thing that pops for me is presence.
If someone is present, then likeI'm in and if, if, if there's a
feeling of like a 123 start and now I'm this person that like

(33:19):
that turns me off. And I was, I saw something the
other day that was, it might have been Al Pacino talking
about Jon Kazal or something where he said like you couldn't
tell when he started the scene. Like the director would call
action and you wouldn't know if he was still being John for a
second getting ready or if he was starting the scene.
You just would. And then the, the seamless

(33:41):
moment, it, it just, there was no difference between him and
starting the scene. And so when I start watching a
self tape or I'm in a room with an actor doing an audition and
we've just been chatting and then we go into the scene and
look, sometimes they're, they'redifferent.
They might have a different accent or they but in terms of

(34:02):
the energy of their presence, ifsomeone is present, I'm
immediately going to be very interested in watching that.
And if someone's not present, I'm going to feel a little like
bored and not going to be as interested.
And I remember when I was an actor reading Udahaggins, an
actor prepares, I think it was. And she had a section about when

(34:25):
a dog is in a play and a dog comes on stage suddenly like the
whole audience is like so excited about the dog.
And why are they excited about the dog?
Because you don't know what the dog's going to do, you know?
And so if I'm watching a tape where I can tell that the actor
is present, then I'm all in because it's like, well, what's
going to happen? And I think the best one line

(34:47):
audition I ever saw was Will Jackson Harper.
And he, you know, gave, gave a line and, you know, we didn't
know who he was when he walked in the door.
And later, you know, two years later, he'd be cast as a series
regular on The Good Place. But he, he said one line and it

(35:07):
was like the most present I'd ever seen anyone be.
And I was like, I think I just like fell in love in five
seconds. Like he, I just, I was like all
in. And I still to this day, I would
watch him read a phone book likeI would, you know, when I, I saw
him in the Uncle Vanya with Steve Carell at Lincoln Center
and I was like hooked on his every word.

(35:28):
Like he is so present. He is always present and so any
actors that are present, they'velike got me right away.
That like, really gets me excited.
In the virtual age that we, it is just who we are now.
We're self tapers. Is there any note that you
continuously find yourself wishing you could give if you

(35:50):
were in real time watching tapes?
I and we, this is something we can talk about later, is self
taping versus in person auditionbecause you and I can have a
little, I've, I've heard you sayyou really like self taping and
I do want to discuss that. But yeah, I think the, the most
common thing in every office I've worked in and with me too,

(36:12):
is we always wish it was going faster.
There's a way in which actors really want to make a meal of
something, or they're thinking about the four beats that that
they're trying to work in. And all of that work is
wonderful. And it's so great that people
have chosen an action or that they're trying to add these
layers. But you also have to just be a

(36:34):
person. And so when you take it too
slowly, it's really starts to feel like acting.
And it's not like, you know, it,it just doesn't feel like that's
not how we talk in real life. And, and so it, it stops feeling
like a real conversation when they're kind of showing you what
they're thinking rather than they're talking and then they're

(36:55):
realizing what they're thinking or they're, you know, so I, I
think I would say to people like, try to do it a lot faster
than you think you should and see how that feels and watch it
back. And maybe you'll feel like
you're jumping off a Cliff and it'll be a little scary, but
maybe that'll make you more present, you know, watch those
two tapes, but just do it a bit faster than you think.

(37:18):
I think you should do it and andsee what you find in there for
yourself and if you can find a comfort level with that and
watch them back and see what youreally think, Yes.
Watch them back objectively. On the craft of it not.
How does your hair look or you know what, how did your reader
say that one word or things likethat?
And I would love to have that conversation about like self

(37:39):
tapes versus impersonal auditions because I know my
reasons, but I would love to hear your, I would love to hear
your perspective on that. I can completely understand why
actors like self taping more. You're in control and we all
want to be in control. That's what we all want all day

(38:00):
long. We want that in our romantic
relationships. We want that at work.
Like who doesn't want to just control everything?
You know what I have found, I have found it really interesting
when all the heated discussions were going on with, you know,
things have to go back to the room and I am in an office, I
share an office with Meredith Tucker.
She rents me, I rent a desk out of her office.

(38:22):
We see actors in person and I will offer both.
And 5% of people come in and read for me and the other 95%
self tape. And when I'm showing tapes to
the creatives, the tapes they are choosing are the people who
came in for me or the people whoread on Zoom with me.

(38:45):
And I just think people don't realize that there is something.
It's not only does the casting director know how to be a reader
in the situation because they know the tone that the show or
the movie is taking and so they can lead you toward that tone,

(39:06):
but they also have had extensiveconversations with the director
about what they're looking for. Look, sometimes if someone's
like the first person I've seen from apart, I might not know
what the director's really fullylooking for yet and we're both
just winging it. But being in, if you're making a
one person show that is not as collaborative, being in a movie

(39:28):
or in ATV show, that is a collaborative art form.
And I have seen many actors losethe role that they really should
have gotten because they either made a great tape or maybe
they're just coming into the audition for the first time for
the director. And we loved what they did or

(39:49):
that we loved what they did on the first scene with the
director. And the director gives them a
note, and they smile and nod andthey do the scene the same way
again. And everyone wanted to cast them
and we do it four different times and you just can't get
them to do it differently. And we were also ready to cast

(40:10):
them if they could just take a note and adjust and make it
collaborative. And so like, I do think if
people are going to be really into self taping and that's
fine, maybe give yourself a notethat's a little out-of-the-box
or something and practice following that note and leaving

(40:30):
your comfort zone and going, oh,they actually told me to do it
angry. It's like you never have to show
those takes. If you think it's wrong, don't
show those takes to anyone, but practice telling yourself like,
oh, now do it. She's actually angry in the
scene, not kind, or she's actually feeling really
vulnerable instead of angry. Whatever it is, practice taking

(40:54):
a note that you did not imagine and had not worked on.
And you need to pivot and you need to really hear that and you
need to hit it from a different angle because I just think
people get really stuck in. They're like, and sometimes in
self tape land, it's like, well,this is the way I've figured out
I want to do it. And now what the takes are is me

(41:17):
perfecting this one certain way.And the more you do that, the
less present you are because you're trying to do an
impression of your favorite version of the scene rather than
just being present and seeing what happens.
And I would say almost like instead of watching your takes
back because look, if I were an actor today, I could not watch

(41:39):
my takes back. I think that sounds horrible,
but it's like maybe go off of ifthere's a take where you do not
remember what happened, send that take.
That was probably a great take. Like I, I remember when I, when
I was an actor, the nights that I Wesleyan, especially when we
would do a show like 5 times andI'd have a really good director.

(42:01):
The nights when I would come offstage and go like, I really
nailed it tonight. You know, the director was like,
yeah, that was, that was pretty good.
And the nights where I would come off stage and be like, I
honestly could not tell you one thing that happened.
I don't know what just happened.They were like, that was
amazing. That was the best acting I've
ever seen. So it's like if, if if you're

(42:23):
sitting there judging yourself throughout the scene and you can
stop the tape and go, I know I did that perfectly because I did
this and I did this and I did this.
That might not be a good take. Like what about the tape where
you have no clue what happened? Like that's the take I want to
see where you just like jumped and and just were present.
Yeah, No, I, I appreciate you sharing that.

(42:44):
And, and for context, I think for me, the level of
vulnerability, I always wanted to approach the work.
I didn't feel like I could have that in the waiting room.
I felt like pre pre pandemic, I was always kind of feeling like
I needed to have my guard up to protect myself in the the
waiting room to then once I got in, I love people, I love

(43:06):
creatives. And after so many times of like
walking in, being kind of like the southern person of just like
wanting to say hi to people and feeling like so shut down, like
you, just you kind of like you feel like you need to put your
armor on. I don't actually want to tear
up, but like it's so beautiful that the the disconnect has

(43:28):
forced us to be kinder to one another.
Like yesterday I was as leading a group for the TV Academy and
I, I, I chose like community as like our, our, our theme for the
six months and in, in talking about it, it was beautiful that
everybody was like, I just want to like be with creatives.
I just want to end like we used to have that take it for granted

(43:49):
and treat everybody on either side as competition of like,
well, it's, it's us for them. And now we're coming back.
And I think that was for me, I felt like you could finally turn
in the work that I wanted to in self paints.
And then I kind of got attached to that as like a security
blanket. But it's been, it's been really
interesting because as more additions have gone, not

(44:10):
theatrically unfortunately yet, but like commercials in person,
it's been really fun. And if I'm ever lucky enough
that there's kids in the waitingroom, that's all I, you know, a
game of peekaboo in the in the lobby will always just like kind
of loosen the mood for everybody.
But I appreciate you saying thatbecause I think so often we, we
kind of set these little traps for ourselves because that's how

(44:32):
we've learned to do it at some point or with some coach.
And then we're just trying to like really hone in on what we
think this one singular idea is.Or we'll continue to do it way
past when we should have stopped, like at a point it's no
longer getting better. It's definitely not.
Yeah. And I think and look, it's, it's
so I can totally see why it makes you tear up because it's

(44:55):
so it's such a precious space. And I think the best casting
directors leave room for it to be a really safe, precious
space. I was in a casting office where
one of my casting friends brought her dog just 'cause she
needed to have her dog, but it happened to be a therapy dog.

(45:17):
And the actors would like concentrate on the dog and calm
down and come in and give a great audition.
And I was like, every casting office should have a therapy
dog. But I, it's like, I really try
to A not have more than one person waiting at a time, but B,
leave space in the room for yeah, like how many takes do we

(45:40):
need to do? Because if you didn't feel good
about that, let's do another oneor leave space for it to be the
best marriage between the self tape world and the in person
world of like you can have control of some takes.
I can have control of some takes, but like and let's figure
out what works for both of us. But I I think I do think it

(46:03):
would be valuable for you and for others who feel this way.
At least go in one time for eachperson.
And I fully believe you that like there, I'm sure there are
many offices where it you feel better self taping because you
don't feel you can be vulnerablethere.
But I would say give each casting director a try and find

(46:26):
the casting directors you can bevulnerable with and where you do
feel loved and seen and heard and and like able to go there
with them and go in person for those people.
And I think it's totally valid to have people you don't do that
for. But I think like.
Well, and please know what I'm talking about is like it's the

(46:46):
waiting room, like in the room, like in the casting process.
I've, I've honestly, I've not had a bad experience.
I've been really, really fortunate in that, in that
regard. I've always felt like if I, if I
wanted to take another run at itor like I felt like I had the
space, you know, sometimes I rushed myself because, you know,
not wanting to take up too much space or, you know what have

(47:06):
you. But it was always kind of trying
to trans, like if I could have waited in the parking lot and
then when I it was my turn, I could have walked straight from
the parking lot into the castingroom.
I would have been like loving that.
But I think it's really good to discuss this because I think,
like, we're all looking for waysto make this work for all of us.
And this gives me the idea of, you know, we have a tape room in

(47:27):
our office that's at the front near the door that we're usually
not using. And it's like, maybe I should
keep the one part of the waitingroom is like, if you're a social
person and you want to see who'sin the waiting room, go here.
And maybe that other room shouldbe like a room that's like, if
you need alone time, here's the room you can wait in and just
flip a sign on the knob that says like, I'm waiting in here

(47:51):
or something. You know, like what can we do
that that that helps everyone have the situation they need to
have? I think that's really valuable.
Maybe we need to have more waiting rooms with like dividers
so people don't get distracted by each other, you know, like.
Seriously, like just a little like meditation space, you allow
people to be open and like, I see so much of why there's such

(48:14):
a, a thin veil between like actor and character and a lot of
the work that you cast. You mentioned familiar time.
How did that project come to youand what aspects of the story or
the characters were you most drawn to helping bring to life?
Because it was such a, it's sucha beautiful story that we don't
see that often of that transition in that chapter of
life that that so many people are working through with their

(48:36):
family. But it was it was so beautifully
depicted. So I'm very curious to know more
about it. Yeah, familiar touch.
So it was, it came to me becausethe one of the two producers,
Alexandra Byer, I had worked with her on another thing that
was only in development where weare attaching people, but she
was one of the producers on it. And so she had been working for

(49:01):
years with Sara Friedland, the director, and with the other
producer, Matt Thurm on this. So she brought it to me and just
said, hey, do you want to read this?
Would you ever, you know, would you meet with the director?
I think they had just gotten some development money from a
grant or something so they finally could bring on a casting
director. And they've gone out to a few
people themselves over the years.

(49:22):
But they now they really needed to get into gear.
And I read the script and it just was so delicate and humane
and just careful and beautifullywritten.
And I really fell in love with it.
And I had been very close to my grandmother and I had even spent

(49:46):
time on spring breaks from college living in her retirement
home with her. And so the a film that took
place in this world was like, made a lot of sense to me.
That was so delicate about just the day-to-day of this world and
someone's experience in it. And so I took the meeting.
And then when I met Sarah, the director, I mean, she's just the

(50:09):
warmest, most brilliant, you know, usually the most brilliant
people we meet in life are also jerks because they know they're
the smartest person in the room.And she's like that unique
person who's, like, smarter thananyone else in the world, but so
kind and so collaborative and truly wants your opinion and
wants to synthesize, like, your thoughts into her process, even

(50:34):
though she's such a genius. And so I could just see right
away that she was this magical person.
And yeah. And so I just, like, immediately
wanted to be on the ride. And in our first meeting that we
had together to talk about who would play a certain part, we
both came ready to pitch the same actor to each other.
And I forget which one of us said his name first, but we were

(50:55):
like, so excited. Like, that's who I came ready to
teach you about, you know? And so we just had similar taste
and she always, when she brings up a name, it's like always
someone I love. And so I could just tell right
away that she was someone I was hoping I could have a really
long relationship with and just learn from each other.

(51:17):
And, and so that was just such abeautiful project because her
plan was to she made it in a retirement home and she had been
teaching filmmaking to seniors for years.
And So what they did is they setup camp for four weeks at this
retirement home and they did filmmaking classes.

(51:37):
And then they let all the peoplein the retirement home choose.
Did they want to be in the sounddepartment, in the props
department? Did they want to be extras or
have a line? Did they want to be in the
camera department? And then the whole community
made the movie together and theywere in all the departments and
and you can really see that whenyou watch the movie.

(51:58):
It was just at film form for four weeks.
And I think it's probably leaving theaters by the time
this comes out, but people can catch it on streaming.
But you can really see from the watching it that it was this
collaboration and that all the you can just feel that all the
people in the retirement home were loving being part of it.
And it was a big group project for them to do together.

(52:21):
And, you know, Sarah's just a very humane filmmaker.
She's always just really seeing the humanity of, of every
person. And so the actors she chose for
the roles were just really, you know, people where you could see
their humanity. And and Kathleen Chalfant's lead
performance in that movie is so breathtaking and something every

(52:46):
actor should watch once it's available on streaming.
And I really hope that she gets some attention when it comes
awards time because she deservesit.
It's a beautiful, remarkable performance as the others.
So many of the supporting actorsare excellent too.
I want to go back to that because one of the threads I saw
throughout your casting, regardless of the writer or the

(53:08):
director, was the character's humanity.
And the actors felt like they had lived in these worlds that
they were sharing. In your career, how have you
learned to spot that openness? I think I just feel it more than
I see it. You know, I just feel an energy
that they're just like really open.
And you know, this guy, Mike G, who played the chef in that

(53:32):
film, you know, he just has a couple lines, but he he sent in
his self tape and did the lines.And then in his slate, he was
saying, like, I actually work ina place like this.
And I like, and I work with these seniors and I love working
with them. And it's like, yes, we needed an
energy of someone who was going to know what this world was, was
not going to feel the the role of the cook needed to be so

(53:56):
warm. And so he needed to be someone
who was really comfortable in this space.
And so that really mattered thathe actually was going to be
comfortable in this space. And yeah, I think it's something
I just feel like you can tell when someone is being open in
themselves. And I think I don't know if
we're going to get to any of my projects.
I did kid casting on. But one thing I love about

(54:19):
casting kids is they are so if you're casting kids who are
under about 14, they're so uninhibited and they're so
present and they're so uniquely themselves because they haven't
kind of been socialized yet to have the world like beat them
down yet. And so it's so fun to find

(54:40):
people who are just living theirtruth, you know, and I'm not
trying to impress anyone or not.They're just looking to have
fun. And so I think you can tell when
an actor just really loves a role and loves auditioning for
it. And I love it when I see an
actor say, like, yeah, whatever happens, this was just so great

(55:01):
to be this person for this week,working on it and for this day.
And I cast an indie last year where every single person I
cast, I cast them because of another audition they had had
sometime in the past 10 years, you know, and it, it, that's
what made me say I have to bringthis person in for this other

(55:22):
thing. And so you true, I know people
talk about like booking the roomand but it it truly is, if
you're excited about a role and you come in just really excited
to give over to it and to play that part.
Even if you don't get the part, we will see that you're someone
who just loves your craft and loves doing it and it will

(55:46):
totally win us over and we'll want to bring you back over and
over again. Like there's something about
that energy. I think that it's not a
coincidence that you know, a lotof actors, they'll have years
where they're booking a lot and years where they're not.
And it all, I know it must feel it so scary when you get in your
head about it. But I do think it's kind of like

(56:08):
an Olympic athlete where in those moments where actors are
in their groove and they're feeling really confident and
they're actually just really they're feeling confident
because they're doing what they love regardless of the outcome.
I think that's when people startbooking the rolls.
And then when people start getting in their heads about it

(56:28):
and being hard on themselves andwhen they're not having fun,
that's the years when you're notbooking the rolls, you know?
And so I think there's a reason that that momentum builds.
It's like you get a little confidence and then you keep
going. But that energy is so
infectious. Like if you think about it from
our side, if any actor listeningthinks about if you're sitting

(56:52):
in a room and someone walks in, what kind of energy do you, you
might be having a tough day and you want them to bring a really
good energy to it. And so we, it's, it's really
important the, the kind of like energy someone comes in with
and, and being able to tell thatthey love what they're doing.

(57:13):
Yeah, well, let's talk about Griffin in summer.
What was the process like a finding your Griffin and and
building out that world? Yeah, so this was such a fun
when I Co cast it with Meredith Tucker, my former boss and just,
you know, major mentor in my life.
And and it was we had so much fun.

(57:34):
The director, Nicholas Colea wasso much fun to work with and his
script was so funny. And we looked for Griffin for a
year and it was a long process. We saw a ton of kids.
It was a very specific part. We were looking and looking and
looking and something about Everett the the kid who got the

(57:55):
part, Everett Blunk, who's just a terrific actor and he has an
amazing career ahead of him and just such a kind soul.
Such an amazing just face, just like so much like lived in
history in his expressions and his little friends.
And he's just such an amazing person already at a young age.
He's just, you know, confident but open, so much more kind of

(58:22):
open than most boys his age. Like he's really like just
curious about the world. And and so when we met him, you
know, it was really, I really credit Nicholas the director
with this because Everett wasn'tthe kind of idea he had had in

(58:42):
his mind of exactly who this would be.
But he was obviously just a great actor and he was kind of
making Griffin into something else than than what we had all
been picturing. And so when we were deciding
among the different actors, I think I just said at one point
like, well, maybe we've been thinking that like this one

(59:06):
thing is driving Griffin, you know, a need for control or a
need for, you know, but maybe it's actually that he's, you
know, he's more of this like hard worker more than he's like
callous or he's more of a like the things that Everett was
bringing to it made Griffin so 3dimensional and made him someone

(59:28):
else. And a lot of directors in that
position would have said like, no, I'm sticking to like how I
had seen it, how I had written it because he was a writer
director. And he just was really open to
saying like, no, Everett's the best actor and we're going to
give the role to the best actor and let him kind of make it his
own. And, and it's going to come from

(59:48):
that. And, and it's an amazing
performance, you know, and so like I, I really credit the
director with being like open minded about that.
And it really like the movies the better for it.
Everyone who I know who saw thatmovie at Tribeca has asked me at
least four times, like when is it coming out?

(01:00:09):
And so even though it's it wasn't bought by like a major
distributor, it won't be in a million theaters, but people
should seek it out because it should have been like it should
have been. In thousands of crowded theaters
because people, it's got like 3 laughs a minute.
All actors will be able to relate to it because it's about
a kid putting on plays in his basement and it's a bunch of
kids like putting on the plays. And the kids we found were so

(01:00:30):
great. And one of the girls who plays
one of the two girls, like she had auditioned for me for Are
You there God? It's me, Margaret, Joanna
Colonna and I, I'd like never stopped like thinking about how
great she was and you know, whatto find for her.
And so, yeah, it just, it, you never know what part you're

(01:00:55):
actually getting when you audition for a different part.
I think that's one of the, the heartbreaking but also like
hopeful aspects of our industry of perhaps it didn't sell right
now, but it's so important to tell your story and to create
your art because who knows who it's going to help and the life
that it will find on streaming and the the the audience that it

(01:01:16):
will find. Betsy, I can't believe this time
is already gone. I could talk to you for hours,
but. You know, we only just scratch
the surface. We.
End every episode the same way. What is one thing you wish could
go back and tell your younger self?
I think it's such a it's such a funny question because there's a
lot I would tell my younger selfabout the rest of my life right
now and what to change. But in terms of my career, I

(01:01:45):
think I would tell her to take deep breaths and to not be so
anxious and to know that like all of the many different things
that she is learning will come in use and, and will lead to a

(01:02:06):
very fulfilling career. Even if it's like not like it's
not the thing you think it's going to be, but just keep
letting your passion lead you. And if your passion leads you,
then you will get to the right place.
And like, don't you know, don't freak out so much.
Calm down. This has been truly the
highlight of my week. Thank you so much for being here

(01:02:29):
and and joining the show and, and sharing your heart and your
openness. And yes, thank you so much for
being here. Hi everyone.
Thanks for listening and being the absolute best part of our
creative community here at What's My Frame?
If you'd like to learn more about our guests, please check
out the show notes and please join us on socials at What's My

(01:02:49):
Frame to Stay in the Know for upcoming events, I'm your host,
Laurie Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.

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