August 25, 2025 • 52 mins
Welcome to a very special episode of What's My Frame. Today I'm joined by Casting Director & Educator Jenny Ravitz Brightman.
Jenny's authenticity, honesty and heart are evident throughout this episode. Jenny has a gift for meeting people where they are and empowering them. Jenny has lived with spondyloarthritis since her teens and is an advocate for artists with chronic pain. Jenny was named a 2024 Women in Motion honoree and the 2021 Volunteer of the Year by the Arthritis Foundation of New York.
Notable casting credits include the hit NBC series Chicago PD, Chicago Fire, and Chicago Med, FBI: International (CBS), and indie film "Pretty People" (Tribeca Film Festival). She is currently working independently and recently cast projects for Powerhouse Theatre, Ars Nova, 5th Avenue Theatre, The Shed, and Paper Mill Playhouse.
She is also a proud professor and alumnus of Shenandoah Conservatory, but her favorite job is serving as auntie to her favorite people: Abby, Olivia, and Jack. Now let's get to the conversation!
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:02):
Hi everyone and welcome to a very special episode of What's
My Frame? Today I'm joined by casting
director and educator Jenny Rabbits Brightman.
Jenny's authenticity, honesty and heart are evident throughout
this episode. Jenny has a gift for meeting
people where they are and empowering them.
Jenny shares her personal experiences living and working
with arthritis and how she has become an advocate for artists
(00:24):
with chronic pain. Jenny was named a 2024 Women in
Motion Honoree and the 2021 Volunteer of the Year by the
Arthritis Foundation of New York.
Notable credits include the hit NBC series Chicago PD, Chicago
Fire and Chicago Med, FBI International and indie films
Pretty People. Jenny's currently working
independently and recently cast projects for Powerhouse Theatre,
(00:47):
5th Ave. Theatre, The Shed, and Paper
Mill Playhouse. She's also a proud professor and
alumni of Shenandoah Conservatory.
Now let's get to the conversation.
Hey, Jenny, welcome to What's MyFrame?
How you doing? Good.
Thank you for having me. Oh, I'm so glad to have you here
and your beautiful smile. Thank you.
(01:10):
It's 2 smiley blondes on the podcast today.
And would you just start us out with your origin story into the
arts? What inspired you some of the
pivotal mentors and opportunities that helped shape
your creative voice? I know that's a very open-ended
question. That's how we like to start
every show you. Know I love the like someone who
shaped your creative voice. That's so specific.
(01:32):
I love that I got into the arts because my sister, my older
sister was very shy, but she loved to sing.
And so my sister's teachers toldmy mom like you should put her
into theater. Like I think that would be like
a really good place for her. And so my sister started like a
(01:54):
kids theater program and I went and saw the production and I
immediately went to my mom and was like, and I will be in this
too. And so I ended up becoming like
more of the theater kid. My sister is the, you know, like
arts supporter, but that just grew and grew and grew.
(02:14):
And I was doing just all aspectsof working in the industry and
stage managing and wardrobe assistance and acting and
dancing. And that just like led me to a
career in the arts. And I've liked, I've talked
(02:35):
about my kind of like how I got into casting before on various
other platforms. But a big part of that was my
health. And I have autoimmune arthritis.
I have spondyloarthritis, and I didn't get that diagnosis until
(02:56):
much later in life. But I had major, major chronic
pain. And so I just started trying to
look for something that was a little less stressful on my
physical body than acting and dance were.
And that's how I ended up finding casting.
But the sort of crazy thing is, is that nobody tells young
(03:18):
people that they're are, are avenues to, to look into outside
of like kind of the big two directing, being an actor.
It's like, if you don't want to do those, you're not in the
industry, which is crazy to me 'cause it's thousands upon
thousands of jobs that we shouldbe, you know, really encouraging
(03:43):
young people to look into and see if they have an interest in
that. And so casting, you know, kind
of came to me and I just got so lucky to started with an
internship at Telsey, the Telseycompany.
And I was only supposed to be there for six weeks, and it
turned into six months and I gotto work on everything, musicals,
(04:09):
plays, commercials, television, films.
And then from there, it led me to a job with Cindy Tolin and
Adam Caldwell, who I think are the most instrumental in shaping
my creative voice because one, they are really, they had the
(04:37):
sharpest eyes, like really, really incredible eyes for for
actors and for talent, but also really sharp business eyes as
well. They treated actors like they
were so special when they came into the room.
(04:58):
It was just this constant, like,warmth.
We're supporting you. And I remember just like how
absolutely important that was. But more specifically, Cindy
taught me, like, how to be a leader as a casting director,
which is that everyone who comesinto your room is your
(05:21):
responsibility, and that includes your staff.
And she was so protective of me in the best way, Would never
allow anybody to, you know, brush me off or treat me as if I
was like, you know, some lowly assistant.
(05:41):
She made me feel so important tothe entire process.
And that's something I've taken with me.
And then she LED, led me to my job with Jonathan Strauss, where
I was for 10 years. And Jonathan and I, we can like
read each other's minds like we are like was so In Sync.
(06:04):
But Jonathan was an incredible business person and an
incredible negotiator and had anan outrageous memory for actors.
He demanded a lot of me. And he also would not allow me
to back down on things that I was like nervous to do or afraid
(06:27):
to do because I was young or a woman.
He was like, no, you're doing it.
He insisted that people talk to me rather than go to him if, you
know, they had any issues. He was like, no, Jenny can
handle it. No, she's got this and I've been
very, very lucky. Just being able to like, it's
(06:49):
like true guides and true mentors.
It's been incredible. I have such great relationships
with all of them still. So often we don't talk about how
instrumental those young bosses and influences and mentors are.
And I, I truly believe that goodpeople gravitate towards other
good people and like minded and the same energy.
(07:11):
And I'm not trying to be like woohoo, but I do feel like you,
you do. Or at least that's how I try to
live my life. And I see a lot of similarities
and talking to people, you know,those offices, they're such
powerhouses, but they wouldn't be those powerhouses without
good people within the walls of of how they run their business
and how they treat actors and how they treat collaborators and
(07:31):
film makers and and things like that.
Now as a casting director independently out on your own,
what inspired that that transition and and what were
some of the perhaps like exciting but also nerve racking
parts of that it's. Been so scary.
I laughed. What I think a lot of people
(07:54):
would say was a very comfortablecasting job.
I was working under the Dick Wolf universe.
It's one of the most, if not thesix most successful television
franchise and the entertainment industry.
I loved the people that I workedwith.
I had incredible relationships, but I was working, you know,
(08:18):
sort of 24/7 on these televisionprojects and as a result, I
wasn't able to work on other projects outside of, you know,
these at one point, up to 6 television shows for me at one
point, and it was my whole life.I did over 500 episodes of of of
(08:41):
these shows and I missed, I missed doing theater.
I really missed working with music.
And I kind of was flirting with the idea of leaving.
But I was so comfortable and I loved everybody so much that I
(09:02):
felt like I was like, betraying them if I left.
Like, who would walk away from agreat opportunity?
And my husband was really, really instrumental about like,
just being like, you should try it Because if you don't try it
now, you're not going to feel ascomfortable in within another 10
(09:26):
years with 500 more episodes under your belt.
Like, do you think it's suddenlynot going to be as comfortable
with 20 years on the job? And so I, I took the leap.
And there are days where I'm like, this was such a good
decision and days where all I dois miss what I had and feel very
(09:51):
much like, what was I doing, especially because I left my job
with NBC. And then six months later, the
sag after strike and the writersstrike hit and I, I felt so
dumb, you know, and I finally really related to actors in this
(10:12):
sort of freelance gigging situation of like constantly
putting yourself out there for jobs and being ghosted on jobs,
you know, like getting to the like, quote UN quote, final call
back to get a casting director job.
And then all of a sudden nobody calls you again and you're like,
(10:33):
so clearly I got the job right? Everyone's rushing to contact
me. But it was, it was terrifying.
And I am not someone I'm so I, Ilove routine, I love structure.
And I, I, I, I plunged myself into this outrageously volatile
(10:55):
pool. But it it did give me a lot of
respect for what actors do. Yeah, well, I really appreciate
you sharing that level of transparency because I don't
think we talked about that enough.
And that was one of the reasons I had seen, and we'll talk about
this later. But I had seen that you were
teaching at the SAG after Foundation and I had seen your
(11:16):
beautiful purple headshot and like, it had kind of like popped
up and it had been on my list oftrying to fit like when was like
the best time to have you on thepodcast and listening to some of
your other interviews and things.
I loved the vulnerability and the the transparency that you
always show up with to just talkfrom the heart and the business
has ups and downs. We all experience that.
I don't think we often talk enough about the the human side
(11:42):
of the business because there isas much as we say like it's,
it's, it's not personal. It's hard to sometimes not feel
like it's personal. And you know, when you put so
much heart into it. Let's talk a little bit about
virtual editions because having cast episodic for so many years
in New York, but also when you were traveling so many actors
(12:04):
for the Chicago shows, the international shows, how did you
start building like a connectionand a rapport with actors and
virtual callbacks? And then how did you basically
grow that strength and muscle inworking with actors via tape,
via virtual auditions through the pandemic going forward?
Because then it just, it became everybody's norm.
(12:26):
I think the toughest thing aboutthe virtual is, is the lack of
personal connection. I don't like it to be completely
candid. I do.
I like that it saves me time because one thing that always
really stressed me out was I would do an entire day of
(12:48):
auditions. And that's also means an entire
day away from your desk and awayfrom your e-mail.
And so you would do auditions all day and then go back to your
desk and you would have 350 unread emails.
And so it was just a lot of time, you know, coming up.
Whereas being able to sit down and watch what in the room would
(13:12):
have been a 10 minute audition. But when it's stuffed together
with the takes that you liked best, it's only three minutes.
It's like I've now saved 7 minutes.
I have never left my desk. If a phone call comes in, I hit
pause. I'm grateful for all of that.
I think that it's detrimental toactors.
(13:35):
Like I think it's great to have the flexibility to be able to
tape. I think that should always have
been an option and always actually was in our office.
You are always welcome to tape if you couldn't come in.
But I think that there are people who just do better in the
room. And I am someone who likes to
give adjustments and feedback. And so I know that we will do
(13:57):
better in the room together. I know that I will find
something that I can help you adjust because that's the
actor's entire training is to beable to make adjustments.
And so why are, why have we now created this, this whole thing
or we've ripped away that option?
(14:19):
And so I'm definitely someone that, you know, if I get a self
tape early and I feel like tiny little adjustments could help
them, you know, move towards therole, I'll call and I'll give
adjustments. I usually will just like write
the agent, give them like a listof of thoughts I had.
And then I just say, here's my cell phone number.
(14:39):
They can call me if they want totalk through it, which has been
a huge help. I can't do that obviously for
every single self tape that comes in.
But it used to be so instant. I would say like, I really need
this moment to be as heightened in emotion as we can take it.
And then you'd go, Yep. And then we'd do it.
(15:02):
And now if I want to tell you that, you send me your take, I
watch it, I write back, you're probably at work.
You're like, I got to go home, film the tape.
I got to get back into the same emotional place that I was and
then do That's outrageous. And so I kind of feel like I'm
(15:25):
not getting a sense of actors and who they are in this virtual
world. I'm getting a sense of who they
are as the character that they're coming in for, but I'm
not getting a big sense of theircapabilities outside of the self
(15:48):
tape because we've missed the moments of adjustments and
reaction. And then also your humanity as a
person, which is integral to being on a television set.
If you are not comfortable with making changes and, and you
(16:10):
know, maybe stopping a little outside of your comfort zone,
it's gonna be really challengingto put you on set.
And that was something that you were able to suss out in the
room that we have lost. So I try to look into actors a
little bit more, especially if Ireally like your tape.
(16:31):
Like I'll try to look on social media, watch videos of you just
like get a better sense because there are little things like
personality, things that are like creative teams love
hearing, you know, like, oh, youknow, in the sides.
You would never know that this person, you know, is they're
going to reveal 6 episodes in that she used to play violin.
(16:55):
And I know by having a conversation with you in the
room that like you played violingrowing up and to be able to
just say to a creative team, like, oh, by the way she played
violin growing up, she'd really connect to that storyline that
could be really authentic for us.
We've lost that. Yeah.
And it's, it's just, it's an, it's, I don't know why we call
(17:19):
it the new normal because it's now been five years, but it is
in some ways. And but I think it was, it was,
it was a knock to the creative process for all of us.
I had a virtual call back for a film the other day and I was so
(17:41):
nervous because it's it's on Zoom and it feels very
disconnected. And I mean, from a selfish point
of view, is there any, is there anything we as actors?
Because I mean, I meditate, I was, you know, I was grounded, I
was trying, but it still, it just didn't feel like the same.
It felt like performative versus, you know, this is a
(18:06):
conversation and I want to get to that place.
Like I, I'm, I'm on zoom all thetime, but for some reason I
struggle. And I've talked to a lot of
actor friends that like the zoomcallback.
It feels, it feels one-dimensional.
It doesn't feel like you're actually connecting and sharing
energy in the same way. And I think sometimes maybe it's
coming from everybody being rushed, but it just, it feels so
(18:27):
different than when you're goinginto the room for a call back.
And if there's any advice there,it may.
There may not be anything but just practition.
Yeah, you said one word that stuck out to me, which is
everybody being rushed. I completely understand how it
would feel that way because you just like pop into a box on the
(18:51):
screen and everyone's like, all right, here we go.
Like the niceties have kind of gone away a little bit.
But I guess my question is, why would it be rushed?
Why do you need for it to feel rushed?
Even if the energy is coming offas rushed, which doesn't
surprise me. Why then, as creatives is our
(19:18):
response, 'cause when people arerushed, they're stressed out to
not say this will be my moment to take and I'm not gonna rush
too. Because my guess is what happens
on the other end is that seemed a bit rushed.
She seemed a bit rushed, you know, not realizing that we were
the ones who made it feel rushedand created that.
(19:38):
I mean, I remember one of the worst days of of auditions I
ever had was when a director anda producer showed up 2 1/2 hours
late to our session and we had and it was the only day they
were in town. I mean hundreds of actors in the
waiting room at this point and it actor after actor bombing.
(20:04):
Bombing people, forgetting theirlines.
And the director was looking at us like, what's going on?
Why did you bring all these amateurs in?
And I was like, they have been waiting on you for 2 1/2 hours,
you know, of course they're gonna bomb.
Of course, you know, you createdthis space where they felt like
(20:28):
their time was being abused 'cause it was and that they,
they were, you know, a problem for just being there.
And so while it's so hard to claim your own space in an
audition room, you just got to say to yourself, whatever energy
I walk into, it will not be my energy.
(20:51):
If I walk in and they seem hungry or annoyed or frustrated,
it does not have anything to do with me and it will not be mine,
you know? And I think that's super
important. You know, we're literally
plucking you out of a virtual waiting room and dropping you in
sometimes, like mid conversation, you know, like
(21:12):
you're coming in and then you'relike, wondering when they're
gonna notice that you've popped up on the Zoom.
Yes, it's so awkward but like. I'm not.
No. I don't feel like I should hear
this. OK, Yes.
Oh, hi. Yes.
Now I'm here. Just say hello in the same way
you would if you were in the room.
And we don't have control of much, but we do have control of
(21:34):
that. We do have control to, like,
still do our thing. That energy is not for me.
That energy is not for my character, That energy is not
for the rest of my day 'cause it's easy to carry with us.
So while I hear you and completely understand where
those feelings are coming from, Like reset.
(21:56):
It my acting teacher, he used tosay like when I would feel
guilty, he's like, I'm taking you off the hook.
And I, I genuinely like, I feel like I've been taken off the
hook of like to match at the, the, because it sometimes feels
like you go from standing still to the treadmills on 60.
And I think my, you know, perception of it was like, oh,
(22:17):
they zoom. I already know everything
because I'm going to call back. So we've already been through
this and now we're just, you know, because I grew up in the
dance world. It's like, oh, no, this is, this
is dress rehearsal. Like you need to be on top of
your game. You need to move at the pace
that they want. And you're exactly right.
I'm sure they're, they're like, well, she's that was, that was
like speed dialogue because I just, I didn't want to take up
too much space. I just want to be there, show
(22:38):
him and then like zip out. So thank you for that.
Thank you so much. I needed more appointment time.
You know, we gave it to you. Yeah, I why take it Like, you
know, why let us take it back. You know, it's like we give you
a 10 minute time slot. You know, it's, it's crazy to
think that like, oh, just because somebody's hangry that
(22:59):
you need to feel like it's got to be 3 minutes.
Yeah. You know, if, unless they say to
you, hey, we're moving at a clip, we're probably not going
to give you any adjustments. But that says nothing about your
performance or anything like that.
It can still be yours. It should be yours.
I want to shift gears a little bit because I think I think some
of your groundedness and, and also your transparency and, and
(23:21):
your heart for actors comes fromyour advocacy work, which you
touched on from a personal perspective, but you're an
advocate for artists with chronic pain and illness.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour work with the Arthritis
Foundation and how how you foundhow you found the organization
that was the right match for youand what inspired you to get
more involved, things like that?I literally found the
(23:43):
organization because when I got my diagnosis, I was 30 I think,
and that was just kind of far too late to be getting this
diagnosis after being in pain for so many years.
You were a child. Oh yeah, I.
I mean, as young as 6, I can remember arthritis pain. 8 is
(24:03):
definitely where I it started tokick in and then I would say
teens is where it really took off.
But it was just this sort of constant trying to figure out
what was going on and my body really failing me on on so many
occasions. And it was, it was really hard
(24:28):
to do when I was when I was casting just because I, I relied
so much on my physical movement and my engagement with actors
and even just like I like to be the one running the camera
physically. And so sometimes that means like
I need to stand. And it just got to a point where
(24:49):
I couldn't stand. And so they ended up buying me
like a high sort of director's chair so I could still sit and
run the camera and do what I needed to do without having to
stand up. It was so challenging.
But I'll get back to the question you asked.
I was, I felt so lost. I felt embarrassed.
(25:13):
I think it's like the one of thestrangest things that you can
feel when you have a chronic illness, But I think that that's
a really common feeling. I felt embarrassed, like, oh, I
shouldn't be sick. I shouldn't be walking with a
cane. I like other people have it
harder than me like why am I arepeople looking at me?
(25:37):
And I just googled arthritis support and the Arthritis
Foundation came right up. And so I got involved with them
immediately. And the big thing being is that
they, you know, it affects children.
(25:57):
And that kind of broke my heart that there were, you know, kids
3456 that were experiencing the type of pain that I experienced.
And, and, you know, we're tryingto go about their lives like,
and how do you play on the playground when you can't move
your leg? And the bigger thing being that
(26:21):
really with kind of all medical research is that it relies on
outside funding and it relies onpeople knowing what it is in
order to find a cure. And people truly believe that
there is a cure for arthritis that will be found in our
lifetime. But not a lot of people are
(26:42):
putting money towards Arthritis Research, particularly because
it's a really misunderstood disease.
People think of like, my grandmahas arthritis.
It's not the same thing. And yes, your grandma's in pain
and that arthritis hurts, but you know, my arthritis took away
my vision. You know, I, I went and went
(27:05):
blind in my right eye for, you know, weeks, weeks at a time.
My arthritis caused so much inflammation, I had to buy
different size pants so I could get them on over the
inflammation in my leg. So, you know, it's it's, it's a
(27:27):
complete disruptor of your life.But that chronic illness, not
even just arthritis, a lot of actors have chronic illness,
whether it's Potts or Ehlers Danlos or Ms., and they are very
(27:47):
afraid to talk about it because they think that it will be this
instant stamp of unreliability. And I went through that too.
I was just so afraid that peoplewere going to think I was no
longer going to be good at my job.
And I realized that I had to start talking about it because
(28:10):
if I was afraid to be who I was and to say that, like, even
though I have all these things and there's going to be
accommodations that have to be made for me, I'm still a plus at
what I do. And I think actors have to know
that too, and they have to be able to stand up for themselves.
(28:31):
But what we've done and the power balance in this industry
is you are even nervous about asking for your 10 minutes in
your audition. We've created so much fear
around just existing and doing our own art that of course
(28:52):
you're going to feel really likea burden or a problem.
And the tough thing is that a lot of people, unfortunately,
make actors, make all artists feel that way.
But I know that it's my job to not be that way, to be the
person that goes, I hear you, I get you.
(29:14):
I understand that, you know, you're going to be 10 minutes
late or you need to sit down in between, you know, it takes or
whatever it is. And then it's my job to
communicate that to the creativeteam.
So all the expectations and the weird conversations are done
before you get to set because that shouldn't be your problem.
(29:38):
You know. So that's like, that's why kind
of why constantly I'm talking about it.
I like somebody said to me once,I'm like, oh, your Instagram is
all your dog and arthritis. And I was like, I don't think
that's a bad thing. Yeah, I, I.
I'll learn that one. Like thanks for the observation.
(30:00):
But yes, like like let's keep itmoving for those that are like
artists and actors that are. I don't want to say I don't want
to use the word struggling, but are concerned about how to make
the choices if it is, if it is realistic for them to have the
career that they aspire to have.What advice or any resources,
(30:21):
any encouragement that you wouldshare for those that are looking
at the current landscape and don't know where to start and
don't know where they fit in? Yeah.
I actually let's not shy away from the word struggling because
it can feel like a struggle. And I think that one, we are in
(30:42):
this climate right now with the entertainment industry, we are
all in the same boat, which is there are less projects than
ever. The projects that are getting
greenlit are being greenlit at Aat a budget level that is
smaller. So that results in tons of
(31:05):
things, less episodes ordered, smaller casts, smaller crew,
whatever that may be. You know, everybody is really
struggling right now. We have not rebounded from the
pandemic in the way that we wantto.
And I think it's totally OK to be flipping out right now.
(31:27):
The one thing that I will say isyou don't have to.
Well, you define your own success is the first thing.
And I think that we all do this really crazy job of like
constantly looking towards otherpeople and being like, well,
they've achieved that. So what does that say about me?
(31:48):
And I'm certainly not immune to that, but I worked on a project
recently that was I got, I got paid very, very little, but I
loved the script. It made me so excited to work
on. I loved the people attached to
(32:10):
it. And I was so pumped.
And then of course, you know, I like run into my other
entertainment people and they'relike, what are you working on?
And I tell them and they're like, oh, OK, that's great.
You know, like thinking to my like, I can almost read that
like, oh, but weren't you working on network television?
And why aren't you working on a network television show right
(32:30):
now and getting paid the big bucks?
And it's like nothing in this inthis world is linear, but I
would say is you can roll aroundin the mud for a little while
and you can be like, I'm struggling with this, I'm upset
with this. I'm going to take a break from
this. I'm going to be angry about
this. But then the important thing to
(32:52):
do is take a look inside yourself and say, is this what I
want? And if it is what you want, you
keep going. But I think that we what we have
to stop doing is saying that if we're not working at what we
deemed the very top, then we're failures.
Oh, if you're not on Broadway, you must be a terrible actor.
(33:13):
If you're not on an Apple TV show, you're a terrible actor.
That's outrageous. It's such a competitive field.
It's impossible for every actor who could be crazy, crazy
talented to somehow have, you know, a resume with hundreds of
(33:35):
thousands of credits. And so we hold ourselves to
these impossible standards. And then when things are bad, we
say, like, who am I to be talking about how bad things
are? But I think it's OK.
I think it's OK to be struggling.
But I hope that people will takea little bit of a look around
(33:56):
and know that there's a lot of camaraderie in it right now.
When you stop looking to your, your left and right as
competition, but your community and you start having
conversations, I think there's adivine dissatisfaction at any
level in our business, regardless of art form or
profession. And I think that that carrot is
(34:17):
always just beyond us. I think so often, especially
younger actors coming in and youknow, I, I sympathize with those
that have come in over the last 5-6 years.
It's just, they think it's just.The the the pool that.
They're sitting in and I'm like,no, it's, it's, it's before it
will be after you. It's this is this is part of the
business. And that's, I think wrapping
(34:38):
your head around it is part of the defining factor of who, who
does this long term, who can, who can stay happy within it.
I'm curious, now that you have the freedom to pick whatever
project you want to take on, what are you drawn to in
projects? What are you drawn to in film
makers and what are you looking for in those early meetings with
(34:59):
creatives of what to take on? Well, the tough thing right now
is it's like is is getting, getting those opportunities at
all is really challenging. It's the same thing like with
actors, you know, you come off abig project, you're like, I'm
gonna have so much momentum behind me.
And then you're like, where are the?
(35:19):
Where are all the offers? Is my phone, is it on?
Yeah. Exactly.
So, But the, the one thing that I I've been better at is I've
gotten pickier because when I first left my job with
Jonathan's office, I said yes toeverything.
(35:40):
And that burnt me out really quickly.
And so now I have a rule. I have to ask myself three
questions and I have to say yes to one of these three questions
in order to take the job. If I can't say yes to one of
these three questions, I cannot take the job.
And I really, really hold myselfto this now.
(36:01):
So the first question is, do I love the material?
So is the script something that speaks to me?
You know, does it involve a subject matter that I'm
passionate and something like that?
Because then I'm going to be super pumped to be working on it
#2 is am I making a connection with someone who I'm excited to
(36:23):
be working with? So someone may be a director
that I've never worked with, a writer that I've never worked
with, or maybe someone that I have worked with that I'm
excited to work with again. That I value that relationship
and I want to keep cultivating that.
That's number two. Number three is, is it paying me
enough money? Because that third one might
(36:44):
cancel out one and two, I have not gotten to that place yet.
Third one has not come along that I've gotten paid enough
for. It's cancelled out 1-2.
But there have been many times Iactually got offered a film by
like a very established producing team.
(37:05):
But, and I was really excited about it.
I was like, oh, this will be good.
Like, you know, it'll be a greatopportunity to like connect with
these people. And then I got the offer and
when I actually looked into whatI was going to be paid by
working on it, it came down to apenny an hour.
(37:28):
Jenny. Exactly.
Exactly. And Jenny in 2022, having just
left her job at NBC, would have been like, just do it.
You'll be an idiot to say no to it.
But now I'm like, what does thatsay about me?
And then also, what does it say about my fellow casting
(37:50):
directors and creatives? If I take this job, it says
that's what you should pay everyother casting director that you
hire from now on. I don't believe anybody should
be working for a penny an hour. That is crazy.
And so I turned it down and I lost sleep over this thing.
(38:11):
I was like, made a horrible mistake, you know, like we
should just sucked it up and done it.
But at the end of the day, I want to be happy with the
decisions I make. I want to be able to look myself
in the mirror and say I had integrity.
And I, I teach college students and I just, you know, preach at
them about how they should really, really value themselves.
(38:35):
So how could I not value myself and then turn around and say
that to them? That would just be wild.
So I want a good script. I want to be, I want to work
with cool people, nice people. That's those are like the things
I want to do. And I want to be paid fairly.
I'm willing to be paid less if it's everything is great.
(38:57):
And maybe if everybody else is getting paid less too, if we're
all on the same page here. But I just want to be, I want to
be immersed in something I'm excited about.
The rule that I got from my mentor rule people billing
money. You do.
All four have to be aligned, butyou have to know what's at the
top of the list and be honest with yourself because I.
I I teach my college students about negotiating their own
(39:20):
projects. And one thing that they're
always afraid of, they're like, if I ask for more money, they're
going to, they're going to stop speaking to me.
And I was like. And they're not your people.
They're not your people, one, But really, do you really think
that's going to happen because casting takes so much time?
And to then go back and say, hey, this actor asked for $100
(39:45):
more. We didn't want to pay it.
And so we just completely decided to ghost them.
And now we're going to hold brand new auditions and take
more time and try to get more people to agree on something
because this actor asked for $100.
I'm like, ask her. At the worst, they can say is
no. Exactly.
OK. I want to talk about that
because I think so often and I love that you're already talking
(40:08):
about like the business side of this career because I think so
often, especially in, in university and Conservatory
programs as a, a product of 1, you're taught all about the
craft, but not the business. You are, you are, you are not
taught how to audition and, and manage those emotions and
expectations and things like that.
And I'm curious what inspired you to teach?
(40:30):
Because I, if I remember correctly, your husband's an
actor. Is that correct?
Yeah, my husband's an actor. So you understand, but what
inspired you to teach and and work with actors in that way?
I've always loved working with actors.
I never really felt like I founda comfortable place to do it,
particularly because there's so many of those pay to play
(40:53):
situations. And, you know, when I was, you
know, first young casting director and I got asked to do
these things, I was just like, excited to be asked.
And I also was bartending on topof my casting job.
So I was like, eager to make more money.
And then I ended up finding out what my classes were costing.
(41:14):
And it was the biggest punch in the gut.
I was humiliated that actors were paying that much money to
meet me, and I think that I'm a pretty darn good teacher, but I
could not back that up comfortably.
And so I have stopped teaching anywhere where actors have to
(41:40):
pay to be my class, which is whyI really like teaching at the
SAG Actor Foundation. I love that it's free for
actors. And then I will also do any kind
of a class that goes to any kindof nonprofit.
So maybe the actors pay, you know, 10-15 dollars, but all of
the money goes to a foundation of their choosing or my
(42:02):
choosing. And I forgo my fee.
But I ended up going to teach atShenandoah Conservatory.
I'd been going down there for many years because I'm an alum,
and so they were always bringingme down for workshops.
I loved it. And then a professor fell ill in
(42:24):
the middle of the semester and they called me up and this was
right before the writers strike.Like so everything was just like
nothing was going. Like everyone was just like
anticipating this strike. I was so bored.
And they said, hey, could you come down and teach some classes
(42:44):
here? But like we'll get you an
apartment down here. Can you be here in 2 days?
And I looked at my husband and Iwas like, I think I want to go
do this. And he was like, go do it.
And I went down and I was teaching this sort of business
class for actors that's sort of everything that they need to
know beyond the craft. And I was also teaching acting
(43:08):
for the camera. And it changed my life.
I was like, this is incredible. I love being able to inform
people what they need to know tomake this industry a little less
scary and also important stuff to protect themselves.
(43:29):
I loved my students. I adore them when they you know,
when they book a job, when they do something creative.
I am like bouncing out of my seat.
I actually just traveled to likethe middle of nowhere Indiana
because like 5 of my students who are in a play or a musical
(43:49):
there and like I went with my mom and like, flew out there,
saw the show. I've been going like all over to
see my students just do some incredible work.
But the thing that I really justwant to instill in them is that
like, they're humans first, they're actors second, and that
(44:11):
they can have like a really beautiful full life outside of
this industry. And they should.
But I also want to make sure that they're protected and
they're knowledgeable. So I've continued coming down.
I go every spring semester. And the nice thing is, is I can
cast from there. And if I need to come up to New
(44:33):
York, I come up to New York. I hold sessions, whatever I need
to do. But that is then for me, the
only blessing about self tapes is that I'm able to teach in
Winchester, VA. But I, yeah, it, I, I don't know
why it called to me, but it changed my life.
(44:54):
I can't imagine giving it up. I I feel so outrageously called
to do it. And specifically working with
young adults, I needed that big dose of reality that I think I
help give my students. And the one thing I want to
remind them is like kindness andcare is not something that
(45:20):
should be sacrificed because we're in this in this crazy
cutthroat business. So I love them.
I absolutely love them. You you light up talking about
your students, especially those that you went to see in the
musical. It was so fun.
Like I loved having my mom thereand they were so excited to meet
my mom. It was the sweetest thing.
(45:43):
Well, that's like that's. Like real.
Like when you bring your mom to show your like your students
shiny and like that's real. My husband, like sometimes I'll
watch like a video of one of them, like singing or something
that they've posted on social media or they've sent to me.
And my husband has actually taken videos of me watching
them. And like he has this picture of
me like watching one of my students.
(46:04):
And I have like tears running down my face.
But I'm just like so excited forthem when they win, like I win.
I just feel so pumped for them. That's amazing.
Well, I actually want to talk about because you've worked with
Paper Mill Playhouse, I have so many fond memories, but I grew
up in Virginia, so going and like traveling to see theater,
like I was a total theater nerd.So I have a lot of fond memories
(46:26):
going to see Paper Mill Playhouse with family.
But how did you get involved in what was, what was your approach
to casting theater versus episodic?
Or was it? Was it similar to you?
It's similar to me, like castingtheater feels similar to me.
The bigger thing is I think thatthere's a higher demand with
(46:51):
theater to see more of the skillset because it lasts a longer
time. You know, we're looking for
someone who has high stamina andthat we could see like a longer
like, you know, a maintenance that's there because there are
people who can do a performance once and then never recreate it
(47:14):
again. And that's impossible with
theater. And that's, I think often why a
theater audition series is so much longer than film and TV
because we kind of all you need to do it once.
One good take, that's all you need.
Hopefully we get more than one good take and TV and film.
I sure hope so. But you know, an editor can
(47:37):
really make some magical performance.
But like the stamina required for theaters so hard.
So my approach to it is similar,but I definitely try to get a
better, more rounded sense of, you know, who you are as a
technician when it comes to theater.
(47:58):
I want to make sure that you feel you, you feel comfortable
enough doing however many shows are required in that run.
And that's something I I try to like kind of poke around a
little bit more in the process. So whether it's encouraging my,
you know, music director to feellike if they need to do
(48:20):
vocalizations with them or if they have questions about, you
know, you know, I just don't know if they can, if they're
going to be able to do this scene, I'm like, we'll let them
come back and do this scene. I'd let them show you.
And I think that in film interview, we just don't have
that time because we're moving so fast.
(48:42):
But with with a theatre project,I'm like, let the actors show
you who they are and that can bereally, really helpful.
But for Paper Mill, this is justan an total situation of
nepotism, which is my husband wrote a musical and Paper Mill
(49:06):
was Co producing it and they were putting up a workshop and
my husband asked me to cast it. And then I cast it and it was
great. I loved the people at Paper
Mill, but I, yeah, I guess you could say I'm an I'm a neppo
wife. But I was, I was very, very
(49:26):
grateful, you know, for that, that situation.
But it was hard. It was really hard to get people
in the theater industry to take me seriously after I'd just come
off of TV. They were like, what do you know
about musical theater? You know, not realizing that all
the actors are the same. That's.
(49:46):
Like acting. Everybody is an actor.
Like you have someone on your show who just finished their
Broadway show the night before. They're doing plays.
They're like they're actors at the heart of it.
Maybe there are some that don't sing, but they're actors, you
know, they all have the sort of same skills.
And so I was like, this is easy,you know, I still know these
(50:10):
people. Is a proud product of community
theater and and arts education and very much grew up in that
world. And I, I believe that acting is
acting, but I think often we, wekind of get on our head of like,
they're, they're different. They're so, so different.
And I'm like, as long as it's grounded and filled and, and
you, you know, and have your visualization, it's acting.
(50:32):
So I appreciate you sharing that, Jenny, I don't know how
our time is up. I could talk to you for hours.
This is. Wise.
We close every episode the same way.
What is one thing you wish you could go back until your younger
self? I would tell her that her
(50:53):
kindness is not weakness and that it is a strength and not to
be, not to be tempted to harden yourself to fit into a city, an
(51:14):
industry that you essentially knew nothing about because you
were 21 years old. But that's what I would say.
I think that my heart and what Ibelieve and my belief in others
has made me great at this job. And I thought for a while that
(51:36):
it was that it wouldn't. Yeah, yeah.
That's what I would say. Jenny, thank you so much for
joining us on the show today. You're your heart and optimism
and kindness. It's, it's just, it's very, it's
very inspiring. So thank you for sharing that
with us today. Thank you.
That's really kind of you. That means a lot for you to say.
(52:00):
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame to Stay in the Know for
upcoming events, I'm your host, Laurie Linda Bradley.
We'll see you next Monday.
Hi everyone and welcome to a very special episode of What's
My Frame? Today I'm joined by casting
director and educator Jenny Rabbits Brightman.
Jenny's authenticity, honesty and heart are evident throughout
this episode. Jenny has a gift for meeting
people where they are and empowering them.
Jenny shares her personal experiences living and working
with arthritis and how she has become an advocate for artists
(00:24):
with chronic pain. Jenny was named a 2024 Women in
Motion Honoree and the 2021 Volunteer of the Year by the
Arthritis Foundation of New York.
Notable credits include the hit NBC series Chicago PD, Chicago
Fire and Chicago Med, FBI International and indie films
Pretty People. Jenny's currently working
independently and recently cast projects for Powerhouse Theatre,
(00:47):
5th Ave. Theatre, The Shed, and Paper
Mill Playhouse. She's also a proud professor and
alumni of Shenandoah Conservatory.
Now let's get to the conversation.
Hey, Jenny, welcome to What's MyFrame?
How you doing? Good.
Thank you for having me. Oh, I'm so glad to have you here
and your beautiful smile. Thank you.
(01:10):
It's 2 smiley blondes on the podcast today.
And would you just start us out with your origin story into the
arts? What inspired you some of the
pivotal mentors and opportunities that helped shape
your creative voice? I know that's a very open-ended
question. That's how we like to start
every show you. Know I love the like someone who
shaped your creative voice. That's so specific.
(01:32):
I love that I got into the arts because my sister, my older
sister was very shy, but she loved to sing.
And so my sister's teachers toldmy mom like you should put her
into theater. Like I think that would be like
a really good place for her. And so my sister started like a
(01:54):
kids theater program and I went and saw the production and I
immediately went to my mom and was like, and I will be in this
too. And so I ended up becoming like
more of the theater kid. My sister is the, you know, like
arts supporter, but that just grew and grew and grew.
(02:14):
And I was doing just all aspectsof working in the industry and
stage managing and wardrobe assistance and acting and
dancing. And that just like led me to a
career in the arts. And I've liked, I've talked
(02:35):
about my kind of like how I got into casting before on various
other platforms. But a big part of that was my
health. And I have autoimmune arthritis.
I have spondyloarthritis, and I didn't get that diagnosis until
(02:56):
much later in life. But I had major, major chronic
pain. And so I just started trying to
look for something that was a little less stressful on my
physical body than acting and dance were.
And that's how I ended up finding casting.
But the sort of crazy thing is, is that nobody tells young
(03:18):
people that they're are, are avenues to, to look into outside
of like kind of the big two directing, being an actor.
It's like, if you don't want to do those, you're not in the
industry, which is crazy to me 'cause it's thousands upon
thousands of jobs that we shouldbe, you know, really encouraging
(03:43):
young people to look into and see if they have an interest in
that. And so casting, you know, kind
of came to me and I just got so lucky to started with an
internship at Telsey, the Telseycompany.
And I was only supposed to be there for six weeks, and it
turned into six months and I gotto work on everything, musicals,
(04:09):
plays, commercials, television, films.
And then from there, it led me to a job with Cindy Tolin and
Adam Caldwell, who I think are the most instrumental in shaping
my creative voice because one, they are really, they had the
(04:37):
sharpest eyes, like really, really incredible eyes for for
actors and for talent, but also really sharp business eyes as
well. They treated actors like they
were so special when they came into the room.
(04:58):
It was just this constant, like,warmth.
We're supporting you. And I remember just like how
absolutely important that was. But more specifically, Cindy
taught me, like, how to be a leader as a casting director,
which is that everyone who comesinto your room is your
(05:21):
responsibility, and that includes your staff.
And she was so protective of me in the best way, Would never
allow anybody to, you know, brush me off or treat me as if I
was like, you know, some lowly assistant.
(05:41):
She made me feel so important tothe entire process.
And that's something I've taken with me.
And then she LED, led me to my job with Jonathan Strauss, where
I was for 10 years. And Jonathan and I, we can like
read each other's minds like we are like was so In Sync.
(06:04):
But Jonathan was an incredible business person and an
incredible negotiator and had anan outrageous memory for actors.
He demanded a lot of me. And he also would not allow me
to back down on things that I was like nervous to do or afraid
(06:27):
to do because I was young or a woman.
He was like, no, you're doing it.
He insisted that people talk to me rather than go to him if, you
know, they had any issues. He was like, no, Jenny can
handle it. No, she's got this and I've been
very, very lucky. Just being able to like, it's
(06:49):
like true guides and true mentors.
It's been incredible. I have such great relationships
with all of them still. So often we don't talk about how
instrumental those young bosses and influences and mentors are.
And I, I truly believe that goodpeople gravitate towards other
good people and like minded and the same energy.
(07:11):
And I'm not trying to be like woohoo, but I do feel like you,
you do. Or at least that's how I try to
live my life. And I see a lot of similarities
and talking to people, you know,those offices, they're such
powerhouses, but they wouldn't be those powerhouses without
good people within the walls of of how they run their business
and how they treat actors and how they treat collaborators and
(07:31):
film makers and and things like that.
Now as a casting director independently out on your own,
what inspired that that transition and and what were
some of the perhaps like exciting but also nerve racking
parts of that it's. Been so scary.
I laughed. What I think a lot of people
(07:54):
would say was a very comfortablecasting job.
I was working under the Dick Wolf universe.
It's one of the most, if not thesix most successful television
franchise and the entertainment industry.
I loved the people that I workedwith.
I had incredible relationships, but I was working, you know,
(08:18):
sort of 24/7 on these televisionprojects and as a result, I
wasn't able to work on other projects outside of, you know,
these at one point, up to 6 television shows for me at one
point, and it was my whole life.I did over 500 episodes of of of
(08:41):
these shows and I missed, I missed doing theater.
I really missed working with music.
And I kind of was flirting with the idea of leaving.
But I was so comfortable and I loved everybody so much that I
(09:02):
felt like I was like, betraying them if I left.
Like, who would walk away from agreat opportunity?
And my husband was really, really instrumental about like,
just being like, you should try it Because if you don't try it
now, you're not going to feel ascomfortable in within another 10
(09:26):
years with 500 more episodes under your belt.
Like, do you think it's suddenlynot going to be as comfortable
with 20 years on the job? And so I, I took the leap.
And there are days where I'm like, this was such a good
decision and days where all I dois miss what I had and feel very
(09:51):
much like, what was I doing, especially because I left my job
with NBC. And then six months later, the
sag after strike and the writersstrike hit and I, I felt so
dumb, you know, and I finally really related to actors in this
(10:12):
sort of freelance gigging situation of like constantly
putting yourself out there for jobs and being ghosted on jobs,
you know, like getting to the like, quote UN quote, final call
back to get a casting director job.
And then all of a sudden nobody calls you again and you're like,
(10:33):
so clearly I got the job right? Everyone's rushing to contact
me. But it was, it was terrifying.
And I am not someone I'm so I, Ilove routine, I love structure.
And I, I, I, I plunged myself into this outrageously volatile
(10:55):
pool. But it it did give me a lot of
respect for what actors do. Yeah, well, I really appreciate
you sharing that level of transparency because I don't
think we talked about that enough.
And that was one of the reasons I had seen, and we'll talk about
this later. But I had seen that you were
teaching at the SAG after Foundation and I had seen your
(11:16):
beautiful purple headshot and like, it had kind of like popped
up and it had been on my list oftrying to fit like when was like
the best time to have you on thepodcast and listening to some of
your other interviews and things.
I loved the vulnerability and the the transparency that you
always show up with to just talkfrom the heart and the business
has ups and downs. We all experience that.
I don't think we often talk enough about the the human side
(11:42):
of the business because there isas much as we say like it's,
it's, it's not personal. It's hard to sometimes not feel
like it's personal. And you know, when you put so
much heart into it. Let's talk a little bit about
virtual editions because having cast episodic for so many years
in New York, but also when you were traveling so many actors
(12:04):
for the Chicago shows, the international shows, how did you
start building like a connectionand a rapport with actors and
virtual callbacks? And then how did you basically
grow that strength and muscle inworking with actors via tape,
via virtual auditions through the pandemic going forward?
Because then it just, it became everybody's norm.
(12:26):
I think the toughest thing aboutthe virtual is, is the lack of
personal connection. I don't like it to be completely
candid. I do.
I like that it saves me time because one thing that always
really stressed me out was I would do an entire day of
(12:48):
auditions. And that's also means an entire
day away from your desk and awayfrom your e-mail.
And so you would do auditions all day and then go back to your
desk and you would have 350 unread emails.
And so it was just a lot of time, you know, coming up.
Whereas being able to sit down and watch what in the room would
(13:12):
have been a 10 minute audition. But when it's stuffed together
with the takes that you liked best, it's only three minutes.
It's like I've now saved 7 minutes.
I have never left my desk. If a phone call comes in, I hit
pause. I'm grateful for all of that.
I think that it's detrimental toactors.
(13:35):
Like I think it's great to have the flexibility to be able to
tape. I think that should always have
been an option and always actually was in our office.
You are always welcome to tape if you couldn't come in.
But I think that there are people who just do better in the
room. And I am someone who likes to
give adjustments and feedback. And so I know that we will do
(13:57):
better in the room together. I know that I will find
something that I can help you adjust because that's the
actor's entire training is to beable to make adjustments.
And so why are, why have we now created this, this whole thing
or we've ripped away that option?
(14:19):
And so I'm definitely someone that, you know, if I get a self
tape early and I feel like tiny little adjustments could help
them, you know, move towards therole, I'll call and I'll give
adjustments. I usually will just like write
the agent, give them like a listof of thoughts I had.
And then I just say, here's my cell phone number.
(14:39):
They can call me if they want totalk through it, which has been
a huge help. I can't do that obviously for
every single self tape that comes in.
But it used to be so instant. I would say like, I really need
this moment to be as heightened in emotion as we can take it.
And then you'd go, Yep. And then we'd do it.
(15:02):
And now if I want to tell you that, you send me your take, I
watch it, I write back, you're probably at work.
You're like, I got to go home, film the tape.
I got to get back into the same emotional place that I was and
then do That's outrageous. And so I kind of feel like I'm
(15:25):
not getting a sense of actors and who they are in this virtual
world. I'm getting a sense of who they
are as the character that they're coming in for, but I'm
not getting a big sense of theircapabilities outside of the self
(15:48):
tape because we've missed the moments of adjustments and
reaction. And then also your humanity as a
person, which is integral to being on a television set.
If you are not comfortable with making changes and, and you
(16:10):
know, maybe stopping a little outside of your comfort zone,
it's gonna be really challengingto put you on set.
And that was something that you were able to suss out in the
room that we have lost. So I try to look into actors a
little bit more, especially if Ireally like your tape.
(16:31):
Like I'll try to look on social media, watch videos of you just
like get a better sense because there are little things like
personality, things that are like creative teams love
hearing, you know, like, oh, youknow, in the sides.
You would never know that this person, you know, is they're
going to reveal 6 episodes in that she used to play violin.
(16:55):
And I know by having a conversation with you in the
room that like you played violingrowing up and to be able to
just say to a creative team, like, oh, by the way she played
violin growing up, she'd really connect to that storyline that
could be really authentic for us.
We've lost that. Yeah.
And it's, it's just, it's an, it's, I don't know why we call
(17:19):
it the new normal because it's now been five years, but it is
in some ways. And but I think it was, it was,
it was a knock to the creative process for all of us.
I had a virtual call back for a film the other day and I was so
(17:41):
nervous because it's it's on Zoom and it feels very
disconnected. And I mean, from a selfish point
of view, is there any, is there anything we as actors?
Because I mean, I meditate, I was, you know, I was grounded, I
was trying, but it still, it just didn't feel like the same.
It felt like performative versus, you know, this is a
(18:06):
conversation and I want to get to that place.
Like I, I'm, I'm on zoom all thetime, but for some reason I
struggle. And I've talked to a lot of
actor friends that like the zoomcallback.
It feels, it feels one-dimensional.
It doesn't feel like you're actually connecting and sharing
energy in the same way. And I think sometimes maybe it's
coming from everybody being rushed, but it just, it feels so
(18:27):
different than when you're goinginto the room for a call back.
And if there's any advice there,it may.
There may not be anything but just practition.
Yeah, you said one word that stuck out to me, which is
everybody being rushed. I completely understand how it
would feel that way because you just like pop into a box on the
(18:51):
screen and everyone's like, all right, here we go.
Like the niceties have kind of gone away a little bit.
But I guess my question is, why would it be rushed?
Why do you need for it to feel rushed?
Even if the energy is coming offas rushed, which doesn't
surprise me. Why then, as creatives is our
(19:18):
response, 'cause when people arerushed, they're stressed out to
not say this will be my moment to take and I'm not gonna rush
too. Because my guess is what happens
on the other end is that seemed a bit rushed.
She seemed a bit rushed, you know, not realizing that we were
the ones who made it feel rushedand created that.
(19:38):
I mean, I remember one of the worst days of of auditions I
ever had was when a director anda producer showed up 2 1/2 hours
late to our session and we had and it was the only day they
were in town. I mean hundreds of actors in the
waiting room at this point and it actor after actor bombing.
(20:04):
Bombing people, forgetting theirlines.
And the director was looking at us like, what's going on?
Why did you bring all these amateurs in?
And I was like, they have been waiting on you for 2 1/2 hours,
you know, of course they're gonna bomb.
Of course, you know, you createdthis space where they felt like
(20:28):
their time was being abused 'cause it was and that they,
they were, you know, a problem for just being there.
And so while it's so hard to claim your own space in an
audition room, you just got to say to yourself, whatever energy
I walk into, it will not be my energy.
(20:51):
If I walk in and they seem hungry or annoyed or frustrated,
it does not have anything to do with me and it will not be mine,
you know? And I think that's super
important. You know, we're literally
plucking you out of a virtual waiting room and dropping you in
sometimes, like mid conversation, you know, like
(21:12):
you're coming in and then you'relike, wondering when they're
gonna notice that you've popped up on the Zoom.
Yes, it's so awkward but like. I'm not.
No. I don't feel like I should hear
this. OK, Yes.
Oh, hi. Yes.
Now I'm here. Just say hello in the same way
you would if you were in the room.
And we don't have control of much, but we do have control of
(21:34):
that. We do have control to, like,
still do our thing. That energy is not for me.
That energy is not for my character, That energy is not
for the rest of my day 'cause it's easy to carry with us.
So while I hear you and completely understand where
those feelings are coming from, Like reset.
(21:56):
It my acting teacher, he used tosay like when I would feel
guilty, he's like, I'm taking you off the hook.
And I, I genuinely like, I feel like I've been taken off the
hook of like to match at the, the, because it sometimes feels
like you go from standing still to the treadmills on 60.
And I think my, you know, perception of it was like, oh,
(22:17):
they zoom. I already know everything
because I'm going to call back. So we've already been through
this and now we're just, you know, because I grew up in the
dance world. It's like, oh, no, this is, this
is dress rehearsal. Like you need to be on top of
your game. You need to move at the pace
that they want. And you're exactly right.
I'm sure they're, they're like, well, she's that was, that was
like speed dialogue because I just, I didn't want to take up
too much space. I just want to be there, show
(22:38):
him and then like zip out. So thank you for that.
Thank you so much. I needed more appointment time.
You know, we gave it to you. Yeah, I why take it Like, you
know, why let us take it back. You know, it's like we give you
a 10 minute time slot. You know, it's, it's crazy to
think that like, oh, just because somebody's hangry that
(22:59):
you need to feel like it's got to be 3 minutes.
Yeah. You know, if, unless they say to
you, hey, we're moving at a clip, we're probably not going
to give you any adjustments. But that says nothing about your
performance or anything like that.
It can still be yours. It should be yours.
I want to shift gears a little bit because I think I think some
of your groundedness and, and also your transparency and, and
(23:21):
your heart for actors comes fromyour advocacy work, which you
touched on from a personal perspective, but you're an
advocate for artists with chronic pain and illness.
Can you share a little bit aboutyour work with the Arthritis
Foundation and how how you foundhow you found the organization
that was the right match for youand what inspired you to get
more involved, things like that?I literally found the
(23:43):
organization because when I got my diagnosis, I was 30 I think,
and that was just kind of far too late to be getting this
diagnosis after being in pain for so many years.
You were a child. Oh yeah, I.
I mean, as young as 6, I can remember arthritis pain. 8 is
(24:03):
definitely where I it started tokick in and then I would say
teens is where it really took off.
But it was just this sort of constant trying to figure out
what was going on and my body really failing me on on so many
occasions. And it was, it was really hard
(24:28):
to do when I was when I was casting just because I, I relied
so much on my physical movement and my engagement with actors
and even just like I like to be the one running the camera
physically. And so sometimes that means like
I need to stand. And it just got to a point where
(24:49):
I couldn't stand. And so they ended up buying me
like a high sort of director's chair so I could still sit and
run the camera and do what I needed to do without having to
stand up. It was so challenging.
But I'll get back to the question you asked.
I was, I felt so lost. I felt embarrassed.
(25:13):
I think it's like the one of thestrangest things that you can
feel when you have a chronic illness, But I think that that's
a really common feeling. I felt embarrassed, like, oh, I
shouldn't be sick. I shouldn't be walking with a
cane. I like other people have it
harder than me like why am I arepeople looking at me?
(25:37):
And I just googled arthritis support and the Arthritis
Foundation came right up. And so I got involved with them
immediately. And the big thing being is that
they, you know, it affects children.
(25:57):
And that kind of broke my heart that there were, you know, kids
3456 that were experiencing the type of pain that I experienced.
And, and, you know, we're tryingto go about their lives like,
and how do you play on the playground when you can't move
your leg? And the bigger thing being that
(26:21):
really with kind of all medical research is that it relies on
outside funding and it relies onpeople knowing what it is in
order to find a cure. And people truly believe that
there is a cure for arthritis that will be found in our
lifetime. But not a lot of people are
(26:42):
putting money towards Arthritis Research, particularly because
it's a really misunderstood disease.
People think of like, my grandmahas arthritis.
It's not the same thing. And yes, your grandma's in pain
and that arthritis hurts, but you know, my arthritis took away
my vision. You know, I, I went and went
(27:05):
blind in my right eye for, you know, weeks, weeks at a time.
My arthritis caused so much inflammation, I had to buy
different size pants so I could get them on over the
inflammation in my leg. So, you know, it's it's, it's a
(27:27):
complete disruptor of your life.But that chronic illness, not
even just arthritis, a lot of actors have chronic illness,
whether it's Potts or Ehlers Danlos or Ms., and they are very
(27:47):
afraid to talk about it because they think that it will be this
instant stamp of unreliability. And I went through that too.
I was just so afraid that peoplewere going to think I was no
longer going to be good at my job.
And I realized that I had to start talking about it because
(28:10):
if I was afraid to be who I was and to say that, like, even
though I have all these things and there's going to be
accommodations that have to be made for me, I'm still a plus at
what I do. And I think actors have to know
that too, and they have to be able to stand up for themselves.
(28:31):
But what we've done and the power balance in this industry
is you are even nervous about asking for your 10 minutes in
your audition. We've created so much fear
around just existing and doing our own art that of course
(28:52):
you're going to feel really likea burden or a problem.
And the tough thing is that a lot of people, unfortunately,
make actors, make all artists feel that way.
But I know that it's my job to not be that way, to be the
person that goes, I hear you, I get you.
(29:14):
I understand that, you know, you're going to be 10 minutes
late or you need to sit down in between, you know, it takes or
whatever it is. And then it's my job to
communicate that to the creativeteam.
So all the expectations and the weird conversations are done
before you get to set because that shouldn't be your problem.
(29:38):
You know. So that's like, that's why kind
of why constantly I'm talking about it.
I like somebody said to me once,I'm like, oh, your Instagram is
all your dog and arthritis. And I was like, I don't think
that's a bad thing. Yeah, I, I.
I'll learn that one. Like thanks for the observation.
(30:00):
But yes, like like let's keep itmoving for those that are like
artists and actors that are. I don't want to say I don't want
to use the word struggling, but are concerned about how to make
the choices if it is, if it is realistic for them to have the
career that they aspire to have.What advice or any resources,
(30:21):
any encouragement that you wouldshare for those that are looking
at the current landscape and don't know where to start and
don't know where they fit in? Yeah.
I actually let's not shy away from the word struggling because
it can feel like a struggle. And I think that one, we are in
(30:42):
this climate right now with the entertainment industry, we are
all in the same boat, which is there are less projects than
ever. The projects that are getting
greenlit are being greenlit at Aat a budget level that is
smaller. So that results in tons of
(31:05):
things, less episodes ordered, smaller casts, smaller crew,
whatever that may be. You know, everybody is really
struggling right now. We have not rebounded from the
pandemic in the way that we wantto.
And I think it's totally OK to be flipping out right now.
(31:27):
The one thing that I will say isyou don't have to.
Well, you define your own success is the first thing.
And I think that we all do this really crazy job of like
constantly looking towards otherpeople and being like, well,
they've achieved that. So what does that say about me?
(31:48):
And I'm certainly not immune to that, but I worked on a project
recently that was I got, I got paid very, very little, but I
loved the script. It made me so excited to work
on. I loved the people attached to
(32:10):
it. And I was so pumped.
And then of course, you know, I like run into my other
entertainment people and they'relike, what are you working on?
And I tell them and they're like, oh, OK, that's great.
You know, like thinking to my like, I can almost read that
like, oh, but weren't you working on network television?
And why aren't you working on a network television show right
(32:30):
now and getting paid the big bucks?
And it's like nothing in this inthis world is linear, but I
would say is you can roll aroundin the mud for a little while
and you can be like, I'm struggling with this, I'm upset
with this. I'm going to take a break from
this. I'm going to be angry about
this. But then the important thing to
(32:52):
do is take a look inside yourself and say, is this what I
want? And if it is what you want, you
keep going. But I think that we what we have
to stop doing is saying that if we're not working at what we
deemed the very top, then we're failures.
Oh, if you're not on Broadway, you must be a terrible actor.
(33:13):
If you're not on an Apple TV show, you're a terrible actor.
That's outrageous. It's such a competitive field.
It's impossible for every actor who could be crazy, crazy
talented to somehow have, you know, a resume with hundreds of
(33:35):
thousands of credits. And so we hold ourselves to
these impossible standards. And then when things are bad, we
say, like, who am I to be talking about how bad things
are? But I think it's OK.
I think it's OK to be struggling.
But I hope that people will takea little bit of a look around
(33:56):
and know that there's a lot of camaraderie in it right now.
When you stop looking to your, your left and right as
competition, but your community and you start having
conversations, I think there's adivine dissatisfaction at any
level in our business, regardless of art form or
profession. And I think that that carrot is
(34:17):
always just beyond us. I think so often, especially
younger actors coming in and youknow, I, I sympathize with those
that have come in over the last 5-6 years.
It's just, they think it's just.The the the pool that.
They're sitting in and I'm like,no, it's, it's, it's before it
will be after you. It's this is this is part of the
business. And that's, I think wrapping
(34:38):
your head around it is part of the defining factor of who, who
does this long term, who can, who can stay happy within it.
I'm curious, now that you have the freedom to pick whatever
project you want to take on, what are you drawn to in
projects? What are you drawn to in film
makers and what are you looking for in those early meetings with
(34:59):
creatives of what to take on? Well, the tough thing right now
is it's like is is getting, getting those opportunities at
all is really challenging. It's the same thing like with
actors, you know, you come off abig project, you're like, I'm
gonna have so much momentum behind me.
And then you're like, where are the?
(35:19):
Where are all the offers? Is my phone, is it on?
Yeah. Exactly.
So, But the, the one thing that I I've been better at is I've
gotten pickier because when I first left my job with
Jonathan's office, I said yes toeverything.
(35:40):
And that burnt me out really quickly.
And so now I have a rule. I have to ask myself three
questions and I have to say yes to one of these three questions
in order to take the job. If I can't say yes to one of
these three questions, I cannot take the job.
And I really, really hold myselfto this now.
(36:01):
So the first question is, do I love the material?
So is the script something that speaks to me?
You know, does it involve a subject matter that I'm
passionate and something like that?
Because then I'm going to be super pumped to be working on it
#2 is am I making a connection with someone who I'm excited to
(36:23):
be working with? So someone may be a director
that I've never worked with, a writer that I've never worked
with, or maybe someone that I have worked with that I'm
excited to work with again. That I value that relationship
and I want to keep cultivating that.
That's number two. Number three is, is it paying me
enough money? Because that third one might
(36:44):
cancel out one and two, I have not gotten to that place yet.
Third one has not come along that I've gotten paid enough
for. It's cancelled out 1-2.
But there have been many times Iactually got offered a film by
like a very established producing team.
(37:05):
But, and I was really excited about it.
I was like, oh, this will be good.
Like, you know, it'll be a greatopportunity to like connect with
these people. And then I got the offer and
when I actually looked into whatI was going to be paid by
working on it, it came down to apenny an hour.
(37:28):
Jenny. Exactly.
Exactly. And Jenny in 2022, having just
left her job at NBC, would have been like, just do it.
You'll be an idiot to say no to it.
But now I'm like, what does thatsay about me?
And then also, what does it say about my fellow casting
(37:50):
directors and creatives? If I take this job, it says
that's what you should pay everyother casting director that you
hire from now on. I don't believe anybody should
be working for a penny an hour. That is crazy.
And so I turned it down and I lost sleep over this thing.
(38:11):
I was like, made a horrible mistake, you know, like we
should just sucked it up and done it.
But at the end of the day, I want to be happy with the
decisions I make. I want to be able to look myself
in the mirror and say I had integrity.
And I, I teach college students and I just, you know, preach at
them about how they should really, really value themselves.
(38:35):
So how could I not value myself and then turn around and say
that to them? That would just be wild.
So I want a good script. I want to be, I want to work
with cool people, nice people. That's those are like the things
I want to do. And I want to be paid fairly.
I'm willing to be paid less if it's everything is great.
(38:57):
And maybe if everybody else is getting paid less too, if we're
all on the same page here. But I just want to be, I want to
be immersed in something I'm excited about.
The rule that I got from my mentor rule people billing
money. You do.
All four have to be aligned, butyou have to know what's at the
top of the list and be honest with yourself because I.
I I teach my college students about negotiating their own
(39:20):
projects. And one thing that they're
always afraid of, they're like, if I ask for more money, they're
going to, they're going to stop speaking to me.
And I was like. And they're not your people.
They're not your people, one, But really, do you really think
that's going to happen because casting takes so much time?
And to then go back and say, hey, this actor asked for $100
(39:45):
more. We didn't want to pay it.
And so we just completely decided to ghost them.
And now we're going to hold brand new auditions and take
more time and try to get more people to agree on something
because this actor asked for $100.
I'm like, ask her. At the worst, they can say is
no. Exactly.
OK. I want to talk about that
because I think so often and I love that you're already talking
(40:08):
about like the business side of this career because I think so
often, especially in, in university and Conservatory
programs as a, a product of 1, you're taught all about the
craft, but not the business. You are, you are, you are not
taught how to audition and, and manage those emotions and
expectations and things like that.
And I'm curious what inspired you to teach?
(40:30):
Because I, if I remember correctly, your husband's an
actor. Is that correct?
Yeah, my husband's an actor. So you understand, but what
inspired you to teach and and work with actors in that way?
I've always loved working with actors.
I never really felt like I founda comfortable place to do it,
particularly because there's so many of those pay to play
(40:53):
situations. And, you know, when I was, you
know, first young casting director and I got asked to do
these things, I was just like, excited to be asked.
And I also was bartending on topof my casting job.
So I was like, eager to make more money.
And then I ended up finding out what my classes were costing.
(41:14):
And it was the biggest punch in the gut.
I was humiliated that actors were paying that much money to
meet me, and I think that I'm a pretty darn good teacher, but I
could not back that up comfortably.
And so I have stopped teaching anywhere where actors have to
(41:40):
pay to be my class, which is whyI really like teaching at the
SAG Actor Foundation. I love that it's free for
actors. And then I will also do any kind
of a class that goes to any kindof nonprofit.
So maybe the actors pay, you know, 10-15 dollars, but all of
the money goes to a foundation of their choosing or my
(42:02):
choosing. And I forgo my fee.
But I ended up going to teach atShenandoah Conservatory.
I'd been going down there for many years because I'm an alum,
and so they were always bringingme down for workshops.
I loved it. And then a professor fell ill in
(42:24):
the middle of the semester and they called me up and this was
right before the writers strike.Like so everything was just like
nothing was going. Like everyone was just like
anticipating this strike. I was so bored.
And they said, hey, could you come down and teach some classes
(42:44):
here? But like we'll get you an
apartment down here. Can you be here in 2 days?
And I looked at my husband and Iwas like, I think I want to go
do this. And he was like, go do it.
And I went down and I was teaching this sort of business
class for actors that's sort of everything that they need to
know beyond the craft. And I was also teaching acting
(43:08):
for the camera. And it changed my life.
I was like, this is incredible. I love being able to inform
people what they need to know tomake this industry a little less
scary and also important stuff to protect themselves.
(43:29):
I loved my students. I adore them when they you know,
when they book a job, when they do something creative.
I am like bouncing out of my seat.
I actually just traveled to likethe middle of nowhere Indiana
because like 5 of my students who are in a play or a musical
(43:49):
there and like I went with my mom and like, flew out there,
saw the show. I've been going like all over to
see my students just do some incredible work.
But the thing that I really justwant to instill in them is that
like, they're humans first, they're actors second, and that
(44:11):
they can have like a really beautiful full life outside of
this industry. And they should.
But I also want to make sure that they're protected and
they're knowledgeable. So I've continued coming down.
I go every spring semester. And the nice thing is, is I can
cast from there. And if I need to come up to New
(44:33):
York, I come up to New York. I hold sessions, whatever I need
to do. But that is then for me, the
only blessing about self tapes is that I'm able to teach in
Winchester, VA. But I, yeah, it, I, I don't know
why it called to me, but it changed my life.
(44:54):
I can't imagine giving it up. I I feel so outrageously called
to do it. And specifically working with
young adults, I needed that big dose of reality that I think I
help give my students. And the one thing I want to
remind them is like kindness andcare is not something that
(45:20):
should be sacrificed because we're in this in this crazy
cutthroat business. So I love them.
I absolutely love them. You you light up talking about
your students, especially those that you went to see in the
musical. It was so fun.
Like I loved having my mom thereand they were so excited to meet
my mom. It was the sweetest thing.
(45:43):
Well, that's like that's. Like real.
Like when you bring your mom to show your like your students
shiny and like that's real. My husband, like sometimes I'll
watch like a video of one of them, like singing or something
that they've posted on social media or they've sent to me.
And my husband has actually taken videos of me watching
them. And like he has this picture of
me like watching one of my students.
(46:04):
And I have like tears running down my face.
But I'm just like so excited forthem when they win, like I win.
I just feel so pumped for them. That's amazing.
Well, I actually want to talk about because you've worked with
Paper Mill Playhouse, I have so many fond memories, but I grew
up in Virginia, so going and like traveling to see theater,
like I was a total theater nerd.So I have a lot of fond memories
(46:26):
going to see Paper Mill Playhouse with family.
But how did you get involved in what was, what was your approach
to casting theater versus episodic?
Or was it? Was it similar to you?
It's similar to me, like castingtheater feels similar to me.
The bigger thing is I think thatthere's a higher demand with
(46:51):
theater to see more of the skillset because it lasts a longer
time. You know, we're looking for
someone who has high stamina andthat we could see like a longer
like, you know, a maintenance that's there because there are
people who can do a performance once and then never recreate it
(47:14):
again. And that's impossible with
theater. And that's, I think often why a
theater audition series is so much longer than film and TV
because we kind of all you need to do it once.
One good take, that's all you need.
Hopefully we get more than one good take and TV and film.
I sure hope so. But you know, an editor can
(47:37):
really make some magical performance.
But like the stamina required for theaters so hard.
So my approach to it is similar,but I definitely try to get a
better, more rounded sense of, you know, who you are as a
technician when it comes to theater.
(47:58):
I want to make sure that you feel you, you feel comfortable
enough doing however many shows are required in that run.
And that's something I I try to like kind of poke around a
little bit more in the process. So whether it's encouraging my,
you know, music director to feellike if they need to do
(48:20):
vocalizations with them or if they have questions about, you
know, you know, I just don't know if they can, if they're
going to be able to do this scene, I'm like, we'll let them
come back and do this scene. I'd let them show you.
And I think that in film interview, we just don't have
that time because we're moving so fast.
(48:42):
But with with a theatre project,I'm like, let the actors show
you who they are and that can bereally, really helpful.
But for Paper Mill, this is justan an total situation of
nepotism, which is my husband wrote a musical and Paper Mill
(49:06):
was Co producing it and they were putting up a workshop and
my husband asked me to cast it. And then I cast it and it was
great. I loved the people at Paper
Mill, but I, yeah, I guess you could say I'm an I'm a neppo
wife. But I was, I was very, very
(49:26):
grateful, you know, for that, that situation.
But it was hard. It was really hard to get people
in the theater industry to take me seriously after I'd just come
off of TV. They were like, what do you know
about musical theater? You know, not realizing that all
the actors are the same. That's.
(49:46):
Like acting. Everybody is an actor.
Like you have someone on your show who just finished their
Broadway show the night before. They're doing plays.
They're like they're actors at the heart of it.
Maybe there are some that don't sing, but they're actors, you
know, they all have the sort of same skills.
And so I was like, this is easy,you know, I still know these
(50:10):
people. Is a proud product of community
theater and and arts education and very much grew up in that
world. And I, I believe that acting is
acting, but I think often we, wekind of get on our head of like,
they're, they're different. They're so, so different.
And I'm like, as long as it's grounded and filled and, and
you, you know, and have your visualization, it's acting.
(50:32):
So I appreciate you sharing that, Jenny, I don't know how
our time is up. I could talk to you for hours.
This is. Wise.
We close every episode the same way.
What is one thing you wish you could go back until your younger
self? I would tell her that her
(50:53):
kindness is not weakness and that it is a strength and not to
be, not to be tempted to harden yourself to fit into a city, an
(51:14):
industry that you essentially knew nothing about because you
were 21 years old. But that's what I would say.
I think that my heart and what Ibelieve and my belief in others
has made me great at this job. And I thought for a while that
(51:36):
it was that it wouldn't. Yeah, yeah.
That's what I would say. Jenny, thank you so much for
joining us on the show today. You're your heart and optimism
and kindness. It's, it's just, it's very, it's
very inspiring. So thank you for sharing that
with us today. Thank you.
That's really kind of you. That means a lot for you to say.
(52:00):
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame to Stay in the Know for
upcoming events, I'm your host, Laurie Linda Bradley.
We'll see you next Monday.
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