November 3, 2025 • 45 mins
Today on What's My Frame I'm joined by Broadway, film, and television director Sammi Cannold. Sammi is one of Forbes Magazine's 30 Under 30 in Hollywood & Entertainment, one of Variety's 10 Broadway Stars to Watch, one of Town & Country's Creative Aristocracy, and a Drama Desk Award winner. In 2025, she made her episodic directing debut helming Episode 2204 of Grey's Anatomy, was named a Sundance Writers Intensive Fellow, and was selected for Dolby and Antigravity Academy's Short Film Studio.
Alongside her husband, she is developing her first feature film, The Homecoming, with the Sundance Institute. In theater and opera, she has directed over 15 full-scale productions on Broadway, at the Kennedy Center, at Lincoln Center, and beyond. Additional: A.R.T. Artistic Fellow, member of Cirque du Soleil's Creative Cognoscenti, Sundance Institute Theater Fellow, and work for CBS, ABC, Nickelodeon, and Apple TV+. B. A., Stanford University; M.A., Harvard University.
@sammi.cannold
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:01):
Hi everyone, Today and what's myframe?
I'm joined by Broadway film and television director Sammy
Kunald. Sammy is one of Forbes
Magazine's 30 Under 30 in Hollywood and Entertainment, 1
of Varieties, 10 Broadway Stars to Watch and a Drama Desk Award
winner. In 2025, she made her episodic
directing debut helming episode 22 O 4 of Grey's Anatomy.
(00:21):
Today we dive into Sammy's creative process, how she forms
a dialogue and trust with her actors the value of mentorship
and advocating for your story. Now let's get to the
conversation. Sammy, welcome to What's My
Frame? How you doing?
Thank you, I'm doing so well. Well, as I was saying before we
started recording, I am such a fan of your work, but also the
(00:45):
people that you have collaborated with and in your
artistic voice. And I'm curious what was it
about the arts and, and what wasyour young origin story into the
arts? And then we'll, you know, dive
into some more project specific questions.
Thank you. That's so kind.
And I was very fortunate that I,my mom worked in theater and my
(01:09):
dad worked in film TV when I wasa kid.
And so I was around it a lot andmore theater than film TV
because I was raised in New Yorkand my mom was working there.
And so I, I got to be in rehearsal rooms and in the back
of tech. And it was such a magical
upbringing. And I think that for me, I sort
(01:31):
of assumed that that was what I was going to do.
It was like, you know, I didn't know other jobs And, and I
realize that's a massive privilege, but I, I, I just was
always so delighted and enthralled by it and was very
lucky that sort of it clicked for me in a way artistically as
(01:54):
well. And that I started sort of
directing in quotations when I was a teenager at a like, summer
program in my town. And then I went to school for
directing, got a degree in directing and started directing
musicals, but have been working in a lot of different genres
(02:15):
recently. And so I'm just so, so grateful
for all of it and I love all of it.
What was it about directing specifically?
So my mom is actually a a producer.
She's like, she's like a hands on in the trenches producer.
What's nice about that is that we don't do the same thing.
(02:35):
I think if we did the exact samething, it might be a little
challenging just to like create my own sort of identity and like
a sense of self. But I for me, the reason the
directing specifically clicked was that I would sit in the back
(02:56):
of these rehearsal rooms of the projects that my mom was working
on, and I would see these directors like getting to create
and envision worlds out of theirhead and then see them on stage.
And I was like, that is magic. Like every job in this room is
magic. But I was like, I'm so excited
(03:17):
by that specific thing. And I think that also as a kid,
I was really obsessed with patterns.
Like my parents tell me that I would always be like making
lists of all my classmates in kindergarten in height order,
like who does that, you know? So, so and then they they told
me that like when they would go on business trips and they would
(03:38):
bring back like the little shampoo bottles that you have in
hotel rooms that I would put on little shows with them on the
bathroom counter and like be moving them around.
So I think for whatever reason, like as a kid, directing
specifically, like really just like clicked for me.
I also, I don't have any talent on stage.
(03:58):
So I think like directing is theclosest that I could come to
what it must feel like to be a performer because I'll never
know. But it's my way of living
vicariously through people who are more talented than I am.
Well, since you bring it up thatlike you, you did not have a
desire to be an actor, like thatwas not your calling.
How do you understand? And how do you like communicate
(04:21):
with actors when that's not likeyour instinct?
Because like so many people, their gateway dream was acting
to then find something else. Yeah, it's, it's something that
I found to be an interesting deficit for me when I was like,
in training to be a director when I was in school, in
(04:42):
college, I had a professor who was like, you don't know how to
speak to actors because you aren't one.
And like, he would watch my rehearsals and be like, you're
not giving direction in a way that is actionable, which was
very helpful feedback, you know,but blunt but helpful.
I learned that early, yes. Yeah, I know.
I was grateful. And he he was like, you have to,
(05:06):
you have to act like you have togo be in something.
So I was in a play in college. Not because I wanted to be or
had the talent to be, but but just so that I could understand
what it was like to to be an actor.
And then I really watched a lot of directors.
I assisted a lot, and I watched a lot of directors in how they
(05:29):
talk to actors and sort of studied the different ways that
they did. And I think it was mostly
working with Rachel Chavkin because like, she really, I
think prides herself on being anactor's director, which she
really is so beautifully. And I, when I first started
directing was definitely not an actor's director.
(05:51):
I, my hope is that I'm, I'm, I now am maybe hopefully.
But watching the way that Racheltalked with actors was very,
very helpful to me because it's down to like the the language
that you use, like how you tailor notes for specific
people, like not at notes aren'tone-size-fits-all.
(06:14):
And it's how you navigate a room.
And I think that it's like taking me a long time to figure
out how to do that. But I'm grateful that I've, I'm
at a point where I don't, I don't think too hard about it
anymore. Just.
From like the actor's perspective, it makes such a
difference when you feel like you come into focus and they
speak the same language as you and they have the same creative
goals and energy and like everything aligns, it makes such
(06:36):
a different. We will talk more about your TV
film work, but I'd like to talk about Broadway first.
How did you find those early opportunities as a director and
working on stage? My first job out of college was
working at the American Repertory Theatre, which was an
opportunity that sort of came about through a lot of like,
(07:00):
cold emailing and hustling and stalking people.
And you know, it's a long story.Clear all those elements.
But I go through. Yeah, I know it's worth it.
I was, what's called at the time, I was called an artistic
fellow, and that meant that my job was to read scripts for the
(07:21):
theater to sort of assist on general things in the artistic
office. And what happened was I started
that job in September, the year after I graduated college.
And in December of that year, Natasha, Pierre and the Great
Comet of 1812, Pre Broadway cameto the ART for its Pre Broadway
(07:46):
run. And at the last minute they
needed a replacement assistant director.
And I was just sitting there andI was so obsessed with the show
and so obsessed with like everything about it.
And I was like, oh, pick me. And they, they threw me into it.
(08:06):
And then when the show moved to Broadway, I moved to New York
with it. And from there, it was sort of
like a domino of one job leadingto the other.
But I think that for a lot of early career directors, it's
simultaneously, what are you doing as an assistant and as an
associate, and what are you doing in terms of your own work.
So it's like keeping those two trains running at the same time
(08:29):
is is both important and challenging.
Did you find it organically transitioned from like what you
had learned in school, what you had taken, and to the actual
real world of working as a director and working with
actors? Yeah, very much so.
I directed 6 productions in college and that was so, so
(08:49):
helpful. And I think that like a lot of
my peers who went to Conservatory or like got theatre
degrees at theatre schools didn't have as many
opportunities to direct. And they're all great directors.
It's not a judgement thing, but I, for me, was just so grateful
(09:13):
that I was able to hit the ground running because I
directed so much. And I had a professor in college
who said that the first three things that you direct are going
to be trash. And.
Is that the same? Direction This professor, this
professor was very blunt, but I'm going to send him this
episode. I remember hearing that when I
(09:34):
was a student and being like, no, like that must apply to
other people. Not me, not me.
But then when I look back on thefirst three things that I
directed, which were in university, which weren't in the
real world, they were really bad.
And like, that's OK. Like, and, and I think there's
like direct, it's as if you saidto, you know, a singer, the
(09:59):
first song you ever sing is going to be a masterpiece.
No, like, that's not like everything takes like practice
and work. And so I'm so grateful that I
got to get 6 productions in before my work was visible to a
professional audience. Yeah, you mentioned about the
(10:19):
acting class and and and doing aplay that, so you got to be in
our shoes for a little while from that.
How did you Start learning how you wanted to build a dialogue
with actors from rehearsal to stage?
How did you start kind of being observant of how different
actors take in notes or how theyprocess and at the pace that
(10:42):
they work? I think that directing in a
university setting was actually so instructive, and specifically
in a university setting where very few people wanted to be
professional performers. Because you know what?
We were doing productions of bigmusicals, but 80% of our cast
(11:05):
were like CS or like statistics majors who were just doing it
for fun and which is amazing, like incredible.
But for me, there was a frustration of like, oh, why
isn't this everybody's top priority?
(11:26):
And which is which is ridiculous.
Coming from a small town and I was like, wait, why is this?
What do you mean? You want to go do something else
this evening and not rehearse? What are you talking about?
It was exactly that. But I think that the the benefit
of it, yeah, was that I had to learn how to make the rehearsal
process fun, engaging and meaningful to these people who
(11:50):
had rightfully many other priorities.
And I think that's a skill that I used now a lot in the real
world, where it's like, yes, theactors I work with now are paid
to be there. Yes, it is their top priority,
you know, beyond family or you know what it whatever you know,
but but still the process and the product are way, way better
(12:17):
if you're working with a community of people who are
engaged and on the ride and enjoying it together for good
reasons. And so I'm really grateful for
that experience because I think that, like, having to figure out
how to like make the football player have fun in a musical was
like, was was my like big mountain to climb.
(12:40):
When you're directing beloved and really well known shows, how
do you like to bring yourself and your creative eye to the
peace? Well, I think in it's it's
interesting because it's like a different equation in the two
mediums, for me at least, because when I'm directing
revivals of shows, there's an expectation and a good one.
(13:03):
I think that there is no reason to revive a musical or play if
you're not going to do somethingnew with it or say something new
about it. Because so often these original
versions of these shows are beloved because the productions
were incredible. So if you're not going to do
(13:23):
something different, why not just do a replica of the
original? Like what's I?
So for me, I'm always sort of asking the reason, asking the
question of like, what am I going to do?
That's that says something different that puts in the
present moment that allows people to reflect on it
differently in order to justify why it's happening in the 1st
(13:46):
place. Separately in TVI think I mean,
and I'm relatively new to episodic, but I think that there
is much more of an expectation and a great one that you as a
director are a guest in a pre-existing world and a world
(14:07):
that's been going without you for a long time and will be
going after you. And yes, you can bring exciting
details and points of view to different elements of it, but at
the same time, it should look, feel, sound like what's come
(14:27):
before and what will come after it.
So like, you know, my Grace episode, it was really, really
important to me that like, I wasnot rocking the boat in any
unnecessary way. If there was a sort of split Rd.
between two choices and one was the one that was more consistent
with the voice of the show and one was the sort of like riskier
(14:52):
stranger choice, I would always go with the one that felt more
consistent, especially as a first time episodic director.
Like I had a conversation with Kevin Mckidd, who has directed
on the show a ton and he's in a very different place because
he's directed something like 40 something episodes.
So he can say, I'm going to takethis risk because I know the
voice of the show so well that Iunderstand that like this risk
(15:15):
and this like thing I want to try can feel consistent with
what's come before and what willcome after.
What led to that opportunity? Yeah, I was so lucky.
I mean, I'd always been interested in film TV, but I
didn't know I hadn't trained in in the way that I had trained in
theatre. And so I have a friend who was a
(15:37):
writer in the room on Grey's last two seasons ago, and she
made it possible for me to come shadow for a day two seasons
ago. That was amazing.
Through that, I met another writer who had been there for a
decade, and he sort of took me under his wing and really helped
(16:00):
me get into the world and, you know, championed me to Debbie
Allen. And Debbie, thanks to to Mark
Driscoll, who's this writer who'd been at Grace for a very
long time, allowed me to shadow for a full episode.
(16:20):
And I shadowed the amazing Shondra Wilson for a full
episode last season. Yeah.
She was such an incredible teacher, like, the the absolute
best. And I think what was so
especially meaningful to me about it was that she's a
musical person. She came from musicals like me.
And so she was able to sort of so generously translate some of
(16:44):
the things that I didn't understand into language that I
would understand based on where I was coming from.
And then, you know, when you're shadowing on Grey's, Debbie is
an unbelievable teacher and mentor and she will quiz you
over the course of the process there.
(17:07):
There's like a there's, there are like many, many tests.
And yeah, it's, it's a little stressful, but like in a good
way where she'll come up to you on set, you'll never know like
when it's going to happen. And she'll, she'll, you'll be
watching a scene and then she'llsay, OK, how would you block and
shoot the scene? And you have to be ready with
(17:28):
your answer immediately. And she did this like 6 or 7
times. And I think that one of the
things that was I think very helpful for me was that in
theater we're trained to be so story driven.
(17:48):
And so anytime that I would respond to the test, I would
respond with something that was story driven.
So it would be like, well, because the story of this scene
is that, you know, this character is mad at this
character. I would put, you know, him over
here and her over here and this piece of furniture between them
(18:08):
to show that there's like, you know, tension or, you know,
whatever the answer might be. And I think that it it was that
story driven muscle that was sort of what Debbie responded to
and then caused her to ultimately give me an episode,
which I was so grateful for. I mean her and many other
people. Like the audition process for
(18:30):
your episode and and how did that differ for you from the
theater world? Yeah.
It was, you know, theater world in the past few years has become
more and more self tape reliant,but I've never experienced the
speed of it the way I did in episodic.
I was like, wow, So you know, and I think the reason is
(18:55):
because the episodes are being written as you're shooting.
I mean, as you know, but it's, it's just, you know, I didn't
get my episode until 9 days before I started shooting.
So, so it would have been impossible to cast it until I
(19:15):
had seen the episode. So, so, you know, we had a
casting meeting I think on the first day of prep, and then the
wonderful casting team went out and collected tapes and I was
allowed to or like invited to suggest names of actors that I
(19:41):
know and love. Then they sort of collected
tapes and then we get the tapes back.
And then it's an interesting process of everybody who is a
stakeholder in it saying who their favorites are and then
figuring out from that the puzzle of like, who gets hired.
(20:01):
And so Debbie weighs in and the writer weighs in and the
showrunner weighs in. And, you know, so they're just
like a lot of different stakeholders.
And then like sometimes there are interesting considerations
on a show like Grey's where there are like so many medical
considerations or. You're thinking about sort of
(20:22):
chemistry between a certain, youknow, performer and another
performer, you know, do all these different things that you
have to be able to do, like rapid, rapid fire.
So it's, it's exhilarating. And also, you know, you really
want to make sure that you're you're making a good, good
decision. Take us into the process of
like, reading the script for thefirst time, and then the second
(20:45):
time and the third time as visuals started coming up and
how your imagination came alive with the first.
Script when I got the script forthe first time.
I think that for me, it was really trying to follow it first
from a like story and emotional perspective.
Like I tried really hard the first time I read it not to
(21:07):
think about shot listing yet, not to, to sort of get in the
weeds of like, you know, X location or, you know, just just
really kind of like experience the story.
So that I would, I would like experience it the way that a,
that a viewer would experience it.
And then, you know, by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th read, you start to
(21:28):
think about the specifics. And I was so, so, so lucky that
I was paired with an incredible DP who's one of the two DPS on
the show. The other one's incredible too.
I just happened to be paired with ADP named John Tyson.
And she, I had shadowed her wellbecause she had DP Ed Shawndra's
(21:49):
episode. So I already knew her a bit, but
she really like was such an amazing mentor through the shot
listing process because I would come in with my proposed shot
lists and she would very gently be like great, great, great,
great, great. Also, you might want to
(22:10):
consider, you know or like. Have you thought about or like?
It. Could work, but what might also
work, you know it, it was so like kind and gentle because she
didn't want to, you know, sort of like impose a different
overall vision on things. But she has such incredible,
(22:33):
like, institutional knowledge ofthe show and also just like
knowledge of being an incredibleDP.
And I'm brand new to the medium.And so I really trusted her
expertise. And then we just spend most of
that prep period together, both like deep in the weeds of what
it looks like on paper and then walking the various sets and
(22:57):
locations where we were shooting.
Obviously, series regulars, recurring guest casts, you may
have passed them in the shadowing process, but how did
you start building a dialogue with these actors who know their
characters as if it is their second skin?
But also like coming in as a newdirector and and forming A
collaboration and a dialogue with them and sharing your
(23:20):
ideas, but also supporting theircreativity.
That, that was something that I was really, really nervous about
because I in theatre, like we'reall starting on the project on
the same day, you know, it's like everybody is approaching it
from the same place of newness. And, you know, and I think that
I was like, I was particularly intimidated by the idea of the
(23:46):
folks in my episode who were in the very first episode where I
was just like, they've been on this for 22 seasons.
Like what am I doing telling them, you know, stand here are
they are? Some of these sweetest people.
So, so and I mean that's what I learned the 2nd that I stepped
on to set like I, I was so anxious about it and so nervous
(24:10):
and everybody be kept saying it's going to be fine, it's
going to be fine, it's going to be fine.
And I just didn't really believethem until.
Yourself, yeah. Exactly.
And I think that like my MO has always been in like any medium
that I work in that what I lack in experience I can make up for
in prep. And so my, my methodology was to
(24:35):
just come in so unbelievably over prepared so that if an
actor asked a question about, you know, why would I be walking
here or what, why would I be picking this up or why, you
know, that I would have a reasonfor everything.
And I think that what I discovered, which was really
(24:56):
thrilling, was not only was everybody like so unbelievably,
unbelievably receptive and kind and generous and welcoming, but
they actually really wanted direction in a way that I was
like kind of quite moved by. Because I think that like when
you're doing something for 22 seasons, there's a hunger for a
(25:19):
collaboration and, and a back and forth and like a getting
into the nitty gritty. And I mean, you know, but you
have 18 minutes to rehearse these scenes, which is like
nothing compared to what we havein theatre world.
And so many of these actors are theatre trained like me.
And so I think that like, we gotmutually excited by the idea of
(25:41):
being like, OK, we've 18 minutes, but we're going to
devote five of those minutes to just like talking about the
dramaturgy behind like this specific interaction.
And it led to a lot of really like, fun and awesome and
exciting conversations. And like, by day three, I was
like, oh, it's going to be fine.You know?
(26:01):
But it took it took getting pastthat.
Do you have a favorite memory from that first day on set?
I think, you know, I felt so lucky that I was mentored in
that world by so many women. And I, Debbie Chandra Jean,
(26:26):
Annie Lacks at Shondaland. Like so many people who were
like around the episode were so generously invested in my doing
well in, in a, in a way that waslike really meaningful to me
because they had taken a risk onsomebody new and someone young.
(26:46):
And I think that like on the first day, my very first scene,
which I can say now is because it's not a spoiler, because we
know that she lived through the explosion because she was in
episode 1. But Chandra was in my very first
scene. And that was also a bit nerve
wracking to be like, oh, I'm directing my mentor.
(27:09):
Weird. She was in my first scene.
Debbie came to set to like, justlike be there.
You know, I think Andy came on my, you know, second or third
day and I was there. So it was like all these people
who had taught me how to do thisbeing there and then like giving
me sort of subtle nods of being like, it's good, it's going OK.
(27:31):
You know, was was very meaningful because I feel like
when you're directing theater, you don't there aren't other
directors in the room. You know, it just doesn't
happen. Yeah.
So you've you don't really get that sort of validation or like
that feedback on how you're doing.
And so I was, I was really grateful for that.
Your creativity doesn't stop at directing.
(27:52):
You're currently in development on your first feature, The
Homecoming, alongside your husband.
What was the inspiration for theproject and what can you tell us
about it so far? What can you?
What can you dance around? Details.
So the project is about an autobiographical crazy, crazy
story that is about when my husband, who was a humanitarian
(28:15):
aid worker working in Afghanistan, was taken hostage
by the Taliban and he was held for 105 days before he was
released. He's OK now, relatively, the
story is both about sort of thatwhole hostage ordeal and also
about our simultaneous love story.
(28:38):
We had started dating four months before that happened.
And my husband is Muslim, I'm Jewish and his family did not
know about me when he was taken hostage.
And we ended up meeting each other during his captivity to
(29:00):
try to get him released. And we had to work together to
try to get him released. And the story has a very happy
ending. We're all very, very, very happy
as a big family now and which ishugely credit to his incredible
parents and and their amazing family.
(29:22):
But it was a insane ordeal. And when he got out of
captivity, we were hounded by people asking to option the
story to make a movie. And it was a little alarming
because we were like, whoa, thisreal life thing just happened.
Like, this is all very raw. He was tortured.
Like, we're not really ready to like, make a movie crazy.
(29:46):
And then we sat on it for several years.
And then eventually, so many people are asking us that we
were finally like, you know what, we're going to try to do
it ourselves. And we are not writers.
I mean, I wouldn't consider myself a writer.
I don't think he would consider himself a writer with a capital
W, But I think we felt so strongly about telling this
(30:09):
story in a way that we feel comfortable telling it.
And so we took a stab at it withlike, no preciousness
whatsoever. We were so ready to hand it over
to somebody else if it didn't gowell.
And then we submitted it to a lot of different places and it
miraculously got into the Sundance development track,
(30:32):
which we were so excited about. And so it's specifically
Sundance has screenwriters like incubators and we're in one
called The Intensive that took place virtually last for this
past spring. And then we're continuing to
(30:54):
sort of like develop it vis A vis that that Channel.
Now I I understood where people were coming from because I think
that it was at a moment where, in particular, Muslim and Jewish
communities are badly in need ofways to connect with each other.
(31:16):
I understand the power of this story.
I, as a storyteller, I didn't intend to find myself at the
center of a story that is so powerful and speaks to so many
people. But I did and I get why, even if
there wasn't the sort of Muslim Jewish element, the the what his
(31:39):
captivity speaks to in the stateof Afghanistan right now, like
it's it all feels so important to amplify.
I think we just our gut reactionright away was like, give it
time. And also we want to make sure
that it's not going to be an action movie that is, you know,
(32:01):
starring white people. And, you know, I mean, my, my
husband is Afghan American. So, so I was just like, I just,
we just want to make sure that it's made with Afghan culture at
its heart, with Afghan artists at the heart, you know, So I
think there was so much about itthat we just wanted to, to
control. And so I'm grateful that we have
found a way to to do that with the support of so many wonderful
(32:23):
institutions. Yeah.
What have been the biggest giftsbut simultaneously obstacles of
working in a creative space likethis, with something that's so
personal but also a new a new medium and a new creative
playground? It's, you know, I've become a
little bit desensitized to it ina way because we over the course
(32:46):
of, I mean, he was taken December of 2021.
So over the course of four years, I've told the story so
many times and I know my husbandfeels similarly that like we
tell it at dinner parties, we tell it, you know, it's just
everybody wants to hear the story, but it's becomes almost
like something that happened to other people, not that happened
(33:08):
to like us. But then there are moments that
it sort of hits home. Like, we made a short film
version of it this summer and wewere filming a scene where for
the first time, my character gets a phone call from my
husband's character from the prison.
(33:29):
The wonderful actor who is playing my character in in the
short, whose name is Emma. She had the phone to her ear and
we don't hear what the what she's hearing.
And so I realized because we hadn't written it into the
(33:49):
script, that in order for her tobe able to sort of know how she
should be reacting, I would haveto narrate for her what was
coming through the other end of the phone.
So I did. And that was a, that was like
the one moment during making that short where I was like, oh,
(34:12):
like this is like very emotional.
Otherwise I was able to kind of like stay in director mode.
But that that one moment I was like, oh, I'm like literally
articulating these things that like I heard in this moment in
actuality. So it was like a little mind
boggling. Yeah.
And, and I think there's also, until you're in it, it's hard to
(34:35):
understand how memories can havedifferent like degrees of heat
on them. Like you can be telling a story
and it'd be fine. And then for some reason the
stars align and it just, it's asif you are like your body
doesn't realize you're not actively in it.
And, and all of that emotion is very charged.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
And we will continue to share. Please, please share with me so
(34:58):
that I can share with like the the listeners, like how, how
it's how it's developing and howwe can, you know, follow along.
Shifting gears a little bit, your voice and creativity have
been celebrated varieties 10 Broadway stars to watch and
Forbes 30 under 30. But with accomplishments like
that, I'm sure there comes expectations and nerves.
With such Great Expectations, how do you still stand up under
(35:23):
that but also enjoy the creativeprocess and and maintain your
confidence in what you're doing?Yeah, it's thank you.
I mean, it's it's it's AI. Try not to sort of like get
caught up in the titles only because I'm like nobody coming
(35:49):
to, you know, watch episode 22 O4 of Grey's Anatomy is sitting
there being like, wow, varieties, 10 Broadway stars to
watch. Like she made this.
So I'm going to enjoy the episode for that reason.
You know, it's like you're only as good as the most recent piece
of art that you've made. And so I think that like that
(36:11):
pushes me to constantly be making and, you know, trying to
not like rest on those laurels. But I also feel like a lot of
the accolades that I've been fortunate to get are like
rewarding promise, you know whatI mean?
Like 10 Broadway starts to watch, you know what I mean?
(36:31):
So it's like there there's an expectation that like you got
to, you got to you got to now dodo something with that.
So there's that. And then I also just think that
there is a, there's a hierarchy,I think to like careers in these
(36:52):
industries. And I think that sometimes that
can be unfortunate. So, you know, for example, like
I talked to a lot of, you know, well respected theatre directors
who are like, Oh yeah, I would love to do episodic, but like
shadowing for four weeks, you know, like that's, you know, a
(37:15):
lot of right. And it's like, you sort of have
to like be like, yeah, OK, I'm, I'm, I'm going to sit here for
150 hours and I'm going to watchsomeone else direct because I
don't know what they know, like,and, and there's a, you know,
like, and it's a privilege and an honor to get to do that.
(37:37):
But I do think that it's hard when you're trying to like move
from adjacent industries. Some people have a block of
being like, oh, I wouldn't be anassistant in that industry
because I'm already at this level in this one.
But the reality is we don't knowwhat we don't know.
So I I love constantly learning and I don't know it it, it's
(37:58):
like AI try to not think about the titles and the accolades too
much and just think about what is what is the work and is it
going to be creatively fulfilling?
Yeah, you said something really beautiful in your interview with
Empowered Artist Collective thatit's a choice that we make to be
an artist and do this with our life.
And I'm curious two parts, if there was a moment or
(38:21):
conversation when you knew that this was the industry for you
and what are the evolving challenges that what are the
evolving opportunities, but alsochallenges that keep you in love
with this creative lifestyle because it it is evolving so
rapidly and I don't believe it'sanywhere near settled.
(38:41):
Yeah. You know, for me, I don't know
that it was like, well, I guess the moment that I could pinpoint
that was like the most consciouschoice was my third week of
college when I went to Stanford to study education policy.
I wanted to be secretary of education.
(39:01):
That was my dream and I was likein all these policy classes and
like a lot of public policy, a lot of education classes and at
night I was doing theater extracurricularly for fun.
And like week 3 of college, I like had like an aha moment
where I was like, I'm miserable in these classes and I'm having
(39:23):
so much fun at night in these rehearsals and wait, this could
actually be my job. Like, so I think that that
that's and I changed my major totheatre and like didn't look
back, which is especially crazy because in a class of 1600,
there were only, I think 6 theatre majors in my year.
(39:45):
So it was just sort of like people were like, OK, but, but,
but, but I think it was, it justwas like, I have to do this.
I just have to do it. But I think that like, you know,
it's like those that like sort of don't mean cheesy in a bad
way, but it's kind of cheesy. But the people say like, oh, in
your marriage, you have to like choose your partner over and
(40:08):
over again every day. Like every day you have to wake
up and say, like, I choose you. Like I, I, I think, I think
working in the arts is a little bit that way where you have to
wake up today and be like, all right, I choose it.
You know, like today's going to be a 16 hour day, but I'm
choosing it. So I think that it's like, you
know, this, this industry is I'm, you know, better than I do.
(40:31):
I'm sure it's like not for the faint of heart.
And there are days where you're like, why am I doing this to
myself? But then there are also days
where you're like, wow, this is the most rewarding, meaningful
thing ever. And so it's the balance of of of
those two that I think you you have to net out positive in that
equation. I'm sure that there are many,
(40:53):
but what is like a great challenge or project that you
have on the horizon or you want to take on in your future
career? I have 3 new musicals that I'm
attached to right now and one ofthem has a production that will
(41:13):
be announced really soon and theother one we'll likely have a
production on the horizon prettysoon as well.
So I love these shows and I'm really grateful that they're
getting onto stages so. For creatives that don't know
where to start or don't have a strong support system, you've
(41:34):
touched on the collaborators you've had in your career and
and those mentors and supporters.
What advice, resources or encouragement would you have for
young creatives coming up in thedirector space?
I think a few things one, the resources to like learn and soak
in information are so much more out there than they were two
(41:58):
decades ago, even a decade ago. Like the fact that you can like
hop on TikTok and like type in Broadway directing and then like
videos will come up about like being a Broadway director like
that is so new and so valuable. And so I think that like take
advantage of everything that is out there, every podcast that is
(42:20):
out there. Like I think that like I, when I
first started assistant directing, I had a like a side
hustle survival job where I was transcribing podcast summaries
or like writing podcast summaries for the director, the
(42:43):
theatre directors Union for a podcast series that they had
called Masters of the Stage, where I would listen to podcasts
with directors talking about their craft and then I would
write summaries of them. So I listen to like 100 episodes
and I think that like that for me is like the foundation of how
I direct because I listen to 100hours of directors talking about
how they direct. So I think that like use those
(43:06):
resources, they're there, they're free and then make a
website. Websites are like such important
calling cards. And if the cost of a website is
prohibitive, there are like you could do Google Drive folder
that you could have linked to onyour social media.
There are like a lot of creativeways to have an online presence
(43:28):
without having a website specifically.
But I think that when people arelooking to hire, they Google and
they're like, oh, who was that person that I met?
So, so, you know, whatever, how do I contact them?
They can't remember. And if there's not a way to find
you or to like learn more about your work or to share your work
with other people who are hiring, it's a little bit of a
(43:50):
dead end for a lot of people. And so I think that's really
super important. And then I would say just like
hustle really hard, which is maybe terrible advice, but
everyone I know who like is working a lot works really hard
to work, which is sad, but it isthe state of the industry.
(44:14):
And I mean, I sleep very little and I work super, super hard.
And I know a lot of that is trueof a lot of my peers who are
working consistently, which is not to say that it's the only
element. There are many people who work
super, super, super hard and arenot working.
It's a, it's a really unfortunate equation of like,
(44:34):
you know, supply and demand. But I think that it is a
necessary element to be able to work consistently is to work
really hard. Sammy, this has been such a joy
to chow you. Thank you for making the time
of. Course, thank you so much.
It's been it's such a joy and and thank you for having me.
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
(44:55):
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laura
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.
Hi everyone, Today and what's myframe?
I'm joined by Broadway film and television director Sammy
Kunald. Sammy is one of Forbes
Magazine's 30 Under 30 in Hollywood and Entertainment, 1
of Varieties, 10 Broadway Stars to Watch and a Drama Desk Award
winner. In 2025, she made her episodic
directing debut helming episode 22 O 4 of Grey's Anatomy.
(00:21):
Today we dive into Sammy's creative process, how she forms
a dialogue and trust with her actors the value of mentorship
and advocating for your story. Now let's get to the
conversation. Sammy, welcome to What's My
Frame? How you doing?
Thank you, I'm doing so well. Well, as I was saying before we
started recording, I am such a fan of your work, but also the
(00:45):
people that you have collaborated with and in your
artistic voice. And I'm curious what was it
about the arts and, and what wasyour young origin story into the
arts? And then we'll, you know, dive
into some more project specific questions.
Thank you. That's so kind.
And I was very fortunate that I,my mom worked in theater and my
(01:09):
dad worked in film TV when I wasa kid.
And so I was around it a lot andmore theater than film TV
because I was raised in New Yorkand my mom was working there.
And so I, I got to be in rehearsal rooms and in the back
of tech. And it was such a magical
upbringing. And I think that for me, I sort
(01:31):
of assumed that that was what I was going to do.
It was like, you know, I didn't know other jobs And, and I
realize that's a massive privilege, but I, I, I just was
always so delighted and enthralled by it and was very
lucky that sort of it clicked for me in a way artistically as
(01:54):
well. And that I started sort of
directing in quotations when I was a teenager at a like, summer
program in my town. And then I went to school for
directing, got a degree in directing and started directing
musicals, but have been working in a lot of different genres
(02:15):
recently. And so I'm just so, so grateful
for all of it and I love all of it.
What was it about directing specifically?
So my mom is actually a a producer.
She's like, she's like a hands on in the trenches producer.
What's nice about that is that we don't do the same thing.
(02:35):
I think if we did the exact samething, it might be a little
challenging just to like create my own sort of identity and like
a sense of self. But I for me, the reason the
directing specifically clicked was that I would sit in the back
(02:56):
of these rehearsal rooms of the projects that my mom was working
on, and I would see these directors like getting to create
and envision worlds out of theirhead and then see them on stage.
And I was like, that is magic. Like every job in this room is
magic. But I was like, I'm so excited
(03:17):
by that specific thing. And I think that also as a kid,
I was really obsessed with patterns.
Like my parents tell me that I would always be like making
lists of all my classmates in kindergarten in height order,
like who does that, you know? So, so and then they they told
me that like when they would go on business trips and they would
(03:38):
bring back like the little shampoo bottles that you have in
hotel rooms that I would put on little shows with them on the
bathroom counter and like be moving them around.
So I think for whatever reason, like as a kid, directing
specifically, like really just like clicked for me.
I also, I don't have any talent on stage.
(03:58):
So I think like directing is theclosest that I could come to
what it must feel like to be a performer because I'll never
know. But it's my way of living
vicariously through people who are more talented than I am.
Well, since you bring it up thatlike you, you did not have a
desire to be an actor, like thatwas not your calling.
How do you understand? And how do you like communicate
(04:21):
with actors when that's not likeyour instinct?
Because like so many people, their gateway dream was acting
to then find something else. Yeah, it's, it's something that
I found to be an interesting deficit for me when I was like,
in training to be a director when I was in school, in
(04:42):
college, I had a professor who was like, you don't know how to
speak to actors because you aren't one.
And like, he would watch my rehearsals and be like, you're
not giving direction in a way that is actionable, which was
very helpful feedback, you know,but blunt but helpful.
I learned that early, yes. Yeah, I know.
I was grateful. And he he was like, you have to,
(05:06):
you have to act like you have togo be in something.
So I was in a play in college. Not because I wanted to be or
had the talent to be, but but just so that I could understand
what it was like to to be an actor.
And then I really watched a lot of directors.
I assisted a lot, and I watched a lot of directors in how they
(05:29):
talk to actors and sort of studied the different ways that
they did. And I think it was mostly
working with Rachel Chavkin because like, she really, I
think prides herself on being anactor's director, which she
really is so beautifully. And I, when I first started
directing was definitely not an actor's director.
(05:51):
I, my hope is that I'm, I'm, I now am maybe hopefully.
But watching the way that Racheltalked with actors was very,
very helpful to me because it's down to like the the language
that you use, like how you tailor notes for specific
people, like not at notes aren'tone-size-fits-all.
(06:14):
And it's how you navigate a room.
And I think that it's like taking me a long time to figure
out how to do that. But I'm grateful that I've, I'm
at a point where I don't, I don't think too hard about it
anymore. Just.
From like the actor's perspective, it makes such a
difference when you feel like you come into focus and they
speak the same language as you and they have the same creative
goals and energy and like everything aligns, it makes such
(06:36):
a different. We will talk more about your TV
film work, but I'd like to talk about Broadway first.
How did you find those early opportunities as a director and
working on stage? My first job out of college was
working at the American Repertory Theatre, which was an
opportunity that sort of came about through a lot of like,
(07:00):
cold emailing and hustling and stalking people.
And you know, it's a long story.Clear all those elements.
But I go through. Yeah, I know it's worth it.
I was, what's called at the time, I was called an artistic
fellow, and that meant that my job was to read scripts for the
(07:21):
theater to sort of assist on general things in the artistic
office. And what happened was I started
that job in September, the year after I graduated college.
And in December of that year, Natasha, Pierre and the Great
Comet of 1812, Pre Broadway cameto the ART for its Pre Broadway
(07:46):
run. And at the last minute they
needed a replacement assistant director.
And I was just sitting there andI was so obsessed with the show
and so obsessed with like everything about it.
And I was like, oh, pick me. And they, they threw me into it.
(08:06):
And then when the show moved to Broadway, I moved to New York
with it. And from there, it was sort of
like a domino of one job leadingto the other.
But I think that for a lot of early career directors, it's
simultaneously, what are you doing as an assistant and as an
associate, and what are you doing in terms of your own work.
So it's like keeping those two trains running at the same time
(08:29):
is is both important and challenging.
Did you find it organically transitioned from like what you
had learned in school, what you had taken, and to the actual
real world of working as a director and working with
actors? Yeah, very much so.
I directed 6 productions in college and that was so, so
(08:49):
helpful. And I think that like a lot of
my peers who went to Conservatory or like got theatre
degrees at theatre schools didn't have as many
opportunities to direct. And they're all great directors.
It's not a judgement thing, but I, for me, was just so grateful
(09:13):
that I was able to hit the ground running because I
directed so much. And I had a professor in college
who said that the first three things that you direct are going
to be trash. And.
Is that the same? Direction This professor, this
professor was very blunt, but I'm going to send him this
episode. I remember hearing that when I
(09:34):
was a student and being like, no, like that must apply to
other people. Not me, not me.
But then when I look back on thefirst three things that I
directed, which were in university, which weren't in the
real world, they were really bad.
And like, that's OK. Like, and, and I think there's
like direct, it's as if you saidto, you know, a singer, the
(09:59):
first song you ever sing is going to be a masterpiece.
No, like, that's not like everything takes like practice
and work. And so I'm so grateful that I
got to get 6 productions in before my work was visible to a
professional audience. Yeah, you mentioned about the
(10:19):
acting class and and and doing aplay that, so you got to be in
our shoes for a little while from that.
How did you Start learning how you wanted to build a dialogue
with actors from rehearsal to stage?
How did you start kind of being observant of how different
actors take in notes or how theyprocess and at the pace that
(10:42):
they work? I think that directing in a
university setting was actually so instructive, and specifically
in a university setting where very few people wanted to be
professional performers. Because you know what?
We were doing productions of bigmusicals, but 80% of our cast
(11:05):
were like CS or like statistics majors who were just doing it
for fun and which is amazing, like incredible.
But for me, there was a frustration of like, oh, why
isn't this everybody's top priority?
(11:26):
And which is which is ridiculous.
Coming from a small town and I was like, wait, why is this?
What do you mean? You want to go do something else
this evening and not rehearse? What are you talking about?
It was exactly that. But I think that the the benefit
of it, yeah, was that I had to learn how to make the rehearsal
process fun, engaging and meaningful to these people who
(11:50):
had rightfully many other priorities.
And I think that's a skill that I used now a lot in the real
world, where it's like, yes, theactors I work with now are paid
to be there. Yes, it is their top priority,
you know, beyond family or you know what it whatever you know,
but but still the process and the product are way, way better
(12:17):
if you're working with a community of people who are
engaged and on the ride and enjoying it together for good
reasons. And so I'm really grateful for
that experience because I think that, like, having to figure out
how to like make the football player have fun in a musical was
like, was was my like big mountain to climb.
(12:40):
When you're directing beloved and really well known shows, how
do you like to bring yourself and your creative eye to the
peace? Well, I think in it's it's
interesting because it's like a different equation in the two
mediums, for me at least, because when I'm directing
revivals of shows, there's an expectation and a good one.
(13:03):
I think that there is no reason to revive a musical or play if
you're not going to do somethingnew with it or say something new
about it. Because so often these original
versions of these shows are beloved because the productions
were incredible. So if you're not going to do
(13:23):
something different, why not just do a replica of the
original? Like what's I?
So for me, I'm always sort of asking the reason, asking the
question of like, what am I going to do?
That's that says something different that puts in the
present moment that allows people to reflect on it
differently in order to justify why it's happening in the 1st
(13:46):
place. Separately in TVI think I mean,
and I'm relatively new to episodic, but I think that there
is much more of an expectation and a great one that you as a
director are a guest in a pre-existing world and a world
(14:07):
that's been going without you for a long time and will be
going after you. And yes, you can bring exciting
details and points of view to different elements of it, but at
the same time, it should look, feel, sound like what's come
(14:27):
before and what will come after it.
So like, you know, my Grace episode, it was really, really
important to me that like, I wasnot rocking the boat in any
unnecessary way. If there was a sort of split Rd.
between two choices and one was the one that was more consistent
with the voice of the show and one was the sort of like riskier
(14:52):
stranger choice, I would always go with the one that felt more
consistent, especially as a first time episodic director.
Like I had a conversation with Kevin Mckidd, who has directed
on the show a ton and he's in a very different place because
he's directed something like 40 something episodes.
So he can say, I'm going to takethis risk because I know the
voice of the show so well that Iunderstand that like this risk
(15:15):
and this like thing I want to try can feel consistent with
what's come before and what willcome after.
What led to that opportunity? Yeah, I was so lucky.
I mean, I'd always been interested in film TV, but I
didn't know I hadn't trained in in the way that I had trained in
theatre. And so I have a friend who was a
(15:37):
writer in the room on Grey's last two seasons ago, and she
made it possible for me to come shadow for a day two seasons
ago. That was amazing.
Through that, I met another writer who had been there for a
decade, and he sort of took me under his wing and really helped
(16:00):
me get into the world and, you know, championed me to Debbie
Allen. And Debbie, thanks to to Mark
Driscoll, who's this writer who'd been at Grace for a very
long time, allowed me to shadow for a full episode.
(16:20):
And I shadowed the amazing Shondra Wilson for a full
episode last season. Yeah.
She was such an incredible teacher, like, the the absolute
best. And I think what was so
especially meaningful to me about it was that she's a
musical person. She came from musicals like me.
And so she was able to sort of so generously translate some of
(16:44):
the things that I didn't understand into language that I
would understand based on where I was coming from.
And then, you know, when you're shadowing on Grey's, Debbie is
an unbelievable teacher and mentor and she will quiz you
over the course of the process there.
(17:07):
There's like a there's, there are like many, many tests.
And yeah, it's, it's a little stressful, but like in a good
way where she'll come up to you on set, you'll never know like
when it's going to happen. And she'll, she'll, you'll be
watching a scene and then she'llsay, OK, how would you block and
shoot the scene? And you have to be ready with
(17:28):
your answer immediately. And she did this like 6 or 7
times. And I think that one of the
things that was I think very helpful for me was that in
theater we're trained to be so story driven.
(17:48):
And so anytime that I would respond to the test, I would
respond with something that was story driven.
So it would be like, well, because the story of this scene
is that, you know, this character is mad at this
character. I would put, you know, him over
here and her over here and this piece of furniture between them
(18:08):
to show that there's like, you know, tension or, you know,
whatever the answer might be. And I think that it it was that
story driven muscle that was sort of what Debbie responded to
and then caused her to ultimately give me an episode,
which I was so grateful for. I mean her and many other
people. Like the audition process for
(18:30):
your episode and and how did that differ for you from the
theater world? Yeah.
It was, you know, theater world in the past few years has become
more and more self tape reliant,but I've never experienced the
speed of it the way I did in episodic.
I was like, wow, So you know, and I think the reason is
(18:55):
because the episodes are being written as you're shooting.
I mean, as you know, but it's, it's just, you know, I didn't
get my episode until 9 days before I started shooting.
So, so it would have been impossible to cast it until I
(19:15):
had seen the episode. So, so, you know, we had a
casting meeting I think on the first day of prep, and then the
wonderful casting team went out and collected tapes and I was
allowed to or like invited to suggest names of actors that I
(19:41):
know and love. Then they sort of collected
tapes and then we get the tapes back.
And then it's an interesting process of everybody who is a
stakeholder in it saying who their favorites are and then
figuring out from that the puzzle of like, who gets hired.
(20:01):
And so Debbie weighs in and the writer weighs in and the
showrunner weighs in. And, you know, so they're just
like a lot of different stakeholders.
And then like sometimes there are interesting considerations
on a show like Grey's where there are like so many medical
considerations or. You're thinking about sort of
(20:22):
chemistry between a certain, youknow, performer and another
performer, you know, do all these different things that you
have to be able to do, like rapid, rapid fire.
So it's, it's exhilarating. And also, you know, you really
want to make sure that you're you're making a good, good
decision. Take us into the process of
like, reading the script for thefirst time, and then the second
(20:45):
time and the third time as visuals started coming up and
how your imagination came alive with the first.
Script when I got the script forthe first time.
I think that for me, it was really trying to follow it first
from a like story and emotional perspective.
Like I tried really hard the first time I read it not to
(21:07):
think about shot listing yet, not to, to sort of get in the
weeds of like, you know, X location or, you know, just just
really kind of like experience the story.
So that I would, I would like experience it the way that a,
that a viewer would experience it.
And then, you know, by the 2nd, 3rd, 4th read, you start to
(21:28):
think about the specifics. And I was so, so, so lucky that
I was paired with an incredible DP who's one of the two DPS on
the show. The other one's incredible too.
I just happened to be paired with ADP named John Tyson.
And she, I had shadowed her wellbecause she had DP Ed Shawndra's
(21:49):
episode. So I already knew her a bit, but
she really like was such an amazing mentor through the shot
listing process because I would come in with my proposed shot
lists and she would very gently be like great, great, great,
great, great. Also, you might want to
(22:10):
consider, you know or like. Have you thought about or like?
It. Could work, but what might also
work, you know it, it was so like kind and gentle because she
didn't want to, you know, sort of like impose a different
overall vision on things. But she has such incredible,
(22:33):
like, institutional knowledge ofthe show and also just like
knowledge of being an incredibleDP.
And I'm brand new to the medium.And so I really trusted her
expertise. And then we just spend most of
that prep period together, both like deep in the weeds of what
it looks like on paper and then walking the various sets and
(22:57):
locations where we were shooting.
Obviously, series regulars, recurring guest casts, you may
have passed them in the shadowing process, but how did
you start building a dialogue with these actors who know their
characters as if it is their second skin?
But also like coming in as a newdirector and and forming A
collaboration and a dialogue with them and sharing your
(23:20):
ideas, but also supporting theircreativity.
That, that was something that I was really, really nervous about
because I in theatre, like we'reall starting on the project on
the same day, you know, it's like everybody is approaching it
from the same place of newness. And, you know, and I think that
I was like, I was particularly intimidated by the idea of the
(23:46):
folks in my episode who were in the very first episode where I
was just like, they've been on this for 22 seasons.
Like what am I doing telling them, you know, stand here are
they are? Some of these sweetest people.
So, so and I mean that's what I learned the 2nd that I stepped
on to set like I, I was so anxious about it and so nervous
(24:10):
and everybody be kept saying it's going to be fine, it's
going to be fine, it's going to be fine.
And I just didn't really believethem until.
Yourself, yeah. Exactly.
And I think that like my MO has always been in like any medium
that I work in that what I lack in experience I can make up for
in prep. And so my, my methodology was to
(24:35):
just come in so unbelievably over prepared so that if an
actor asked a question about, you know, why would I be walking
here or what, why would I be picking this up or why, you
know, that I would have a reasonfor everything.
And I think that what I discovered, which was really
(24:56):
thrilling, was not only was everybody like so unbelievably,
unbelievably receptive and kind and generous and welcoming, but
they actually really wanted direction in a way that I was
like kind of quite moved by. Because I think that like when
you're doing something for 22 seasons, there's a hunger for a
(25:19):
collaboration and, and a back and forth and like a getting
into the nitty gritty. And I mean, you know, but you
have 18 minutes to rehearse these scenes, which is like
nothing compared to what we havein theatre world.
And so many of these actors are theatre trained like me.
And so I think that like, we gotmutually excited by the idea of
(25:41):
being like, OK, we've 18 minutes, but we're going to
devote five of those minutes to just like talking about the
dramaturgy behind like this specific interaction.
And it led to a lot of really like, fun and awesome and
exciting conversations. And like, by day three, I was
like, oh, it's going to be fine.You know?
(26:01):
But it took it took getting pastthat.
Do you have a favorite memory from that first day on set?
I think, you know, I felt so lucky that I was mentored in
that world by so many women. And I, Debbie Chandra Jean,
(26:26):
Annie Lacks at Shondaland. Like so many people who were
like around the episode were so generously invested in my doing
well in, in a, in a way that waslike really meaningful to me
because they had taken a risk onsomebody new and someone young.
(26:46):
And I think that like on the first day, my very first scene,
which I can say now is because it's not a spoiler, because we
know that she lived through the explosion because she was in
episode 1. But Chandra was in my very first
scene. And that was also a bit nerve
wracking to be like, oh, I'm directing my mentor.
(27:09):
Weird. She was in my first scene.
Debbie came to set to like, justlike be there.
You know, I think Andy came on my, you know, second or third
day and I was there. So it was like all these people
who had taught me how to do thisbeing there and then like giving
me sort of subtle nods of being like, it's good, it's going OK.
(27:31):
You know, was was very meaningful because I feel like
when you're directing theater, you don't there aren't other
directors in the room. You know, it just doesn't
happen. Yeah.
So you've you don't really get that sort of validation or like
that feedback on how you're doing.
And so I was, I was really grateful for that.
Your creativity doesn't stop at directing.
(27:52):
You're currently in development on your first feature, The
Homecoming, alongside your husband.
What was the inspiration for theproject and what can you tell us
about it so far? What can you?
What can you dance around? Details.
So the project is about an autobiographical crazy, crazy
story that is about when my husband, who was a humanitarian
(28:15):
aid worker working in Afghanistan, was taken hostage
by the Taliban and he was held for 105 days before he was
released. He's OK now, relatively, the
story is both about sort of thatwhole hostage ordeal and also
about our simultaneous love story.
(28:38):
We had started dating four months before that happened.
And my husband is Muslim, I'm Jewish and his family did not
know about me when he was taken hostage.
And we ended up meeting each other during his captivity to
(29:00):
try to get him released. And we had to work together to
try to get him released. And the story has a very happy
ending. We're all very, very, very happy
as a big family now and which ishugely credit to his incredible
parents and and their amazing family.
(29:22):
But it was a insane ordeal. And when he got out of
captivity, we were hounded by people asking to option the
story to make a movie. And it was a little alarming
because we were like, whoa, thisreal life thing just happened.
Like, this is all very raw. He was tortured.
Like, we're not really ready to like, make a movie crazy.
(29:46):
And then we sat on it for several years.
And then eventually, so many people are asking us that we
were finally like, you know what, we're going to try to do
it ourselves. And we are not writers.
I mean, I wouldn't consider myself a writer.
I don't think he would consider himself a writer with a capital
W, But I think we felt so strongly about telling this
(30:09):
story in a way that we feel comfortable telling it.
And so we took a stab at it withlike, no preciousness
whatsoever. We were so ready to hand it over
to somebody else if it didn't gowell.
And then we submitted it to a lot of different places and it
miraculously got into the Sundance development track,
(30:32):
which we were so excited about. And so it's specifically
Sundance has screenwriters like incubators and we're in one
called The Intensive that took place virtually last for this
past spring. And then we're continuing to
(30:54):
sort of like develop it vis A vis that that Channel.
Now I I understood where people were coming from because I think
that it was at a moment where, in particular, Muslim and Jewish
communities are badly in need ofways to connect with each other.
(31:16):
I understand the power of this story.
I, as a storyteller, I didn't intend to find myself at the
center of a story that is so powerful and speaks to so many
people. But I did and I get why, even if
there wasn't the sort of Muslim Jewish element, the the what his
(31:39):
captivity speaks to in the stateof Afghanistan right now, like
it's it all feels so important to amplify.
I think we just our gut reactionright away was like, give it
time. And also we want to make sure
that it's not going to be an action movie that is, you know,
(32:01):
starring white people. And, you know, I mean, my, my
husband is Afghan American. So, so I was just like, I just,
we just want to make sure that it's made with Afghan culture at
its heart, with Afghan artists at the heart, you know, So I
think there was so much about itthat we just wanted to, to
control. And so I'm grateful that we have
found a way to to do that with the support of so many wonderful
(32:23):
institutions. Yeah.
What have been the biggest giftsbut simultaneously obstacles of
working in a creative space likethis, with something that's so
personal but also a new a new medium and a new creative
playground? It's, you know, I've become a
little bit desensitized to it ina way because we over the course
(32:46):
of, I mean, he was taken December of 2021.
So over the course of four years, I've told the story so
many times and I know my husbandfeels similarly that like we
tell it at dinner parties, we tell it, you know, it's just
everybody wants to hear the story, but it's becomes almost
like something that happened to other people, not that happened
(33:08):
to like us. But then there are moments that
it sort of hits home. Like, we made a short film
version of it this summer and wewere filming a scene where for
the first time, my character gets a phone call from my
husband's character from the prison.
(33:29):
The wonderful actor who is playing my character in in the
short, whose name is Emma. She had the phone to her ear and
we don't hear what the what she's hearing.
And so I realized because we hadn't written it into the
(33:49):
script, that in order for her tobe able to sort of know how she
should be reacting, I would haveto narrate for her what was
coming through the other end of the phone.
So I did. And that was a, that was like
the one moment during making that short where I was like, oh,
(34:12):
like this is like very emotional.
Otherwise I was able to kind of like stay in director mode.
But that that one moment I was like, oh, I'm like literally
articulating these things that like I heard in this moment in
actuality. So it was like a little mind
boggling. Yeah.
And, and I think there's also, until you're in it, it's hard to
(34:35):
understand how memories can havedifferent like degrees of heat
on them. Like you can be telling a story
and it'd be fine. And then for some reason the
stars align and it just, it's asif you are like your body
doesn't realize you're not actively in it.
And, and all of that emotion is very charged.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
And we will continue to share. Please, please share with me so
(34:58):
that I can share with like the the listeners, like how, how
it's how it's developing and howwe can, you know, follow along.
Shifting gears a little bit, your voice and creativity have
been celebrated varieties 10 Broadway stars to watch and
Forbes 30 under 30. But with accomplishments like
that, I'm sure there comes expectations and nerves.
With such Great Expectations, how do you still stand up under
(35:23):
that but also enjoy the creativeprocess and and maintain your
confidence in what you're doing?Yeah, it's thank you.
I mean, it's it's it's AI. Try not to sort of like get
caught up in the titles only because I'm like nobody coming
(35:49):
to, you know, watch episode 22 O4 of Grey's Anatomy is sitting
there being like, wow, varieties, 10 Broadway stars to
watch. Like she made this.
So I'm going to enjoy the episode for that reason.
You know, it's like you're only as good as the most recent piece
of art that you've made. And so I think that like that
(36:11):
pushes me to constantly be making and, you know, trying to
not like rest on those laurels. But I also feel like a lot of
the accolades that I've been fortunate to get are like
rewarding promise, you know whatI mean?
Like 10 Broadway starts to watch, you know what I mean?
(36:31):
So it's like there there's an expectation that like you got
to, you got to you got to now dodo something with that.
So there's that. And then I also just think that
there is a, there's a hierarchy,I think to like careers in these
(36:52):
industries. And I think that sometimes that
can be unfortunate. So, you know, for example, like
I talked to a lot of, you know, well respected theatre directors
who are like, Oh yeah, I would love to do episodic, but like
shadowing for four weeks, you know, like that's, you know, a
(37:15):
lot of right. And it's like, you sort of have
to like be like, yeah, OK, I'm, I'm, I'm going to sit here for
150 hours and I'm going to watchsomeone else direct because I
don't know what they know, like,and, and there's a, you know,
like, and it's a privilege and an honor to get to do that.
(37:37):
But I do think that it's hard when you're trying to like move
from adjacent industries. Some people have a block of
being like, oh, I wouldn't be anassistant in that industry
because I'm already at this level in this one.
But the reality is we don't knowwhat we don't know.
So I I love constantly learning and I don't know it it, it's
(37:58):
like AI try to not think about the titles and the accolades too
much and just think about what is what is the work and is it
going to be creatively fulfilling?
Yeah, you said something really beautiful in your interview with
Empowered Artist Collective thatit's a choice that we make to be
an artist and do this with our life.
And I'm curious two parts, if there was a moment or
(38:21):
conversation when you knew that this was the industry for you
and what are the evolving challenges that what are the
evolving opportunities, but alsochallenges that keep you in love
with this creative lifestyle because it it is evolving so
rapidly and I don't believe it'sanywhere near settled.
(38:41):
Yeah. You know, for me, I don't know
that it was like, well, I guess the moment that I could pinpoint
that was like the most consciouschoice was my third week of
college when I went to Stanford to study education policy.
I wanted to be secretary of education.
(39:01):
That was my dream and I was likein all these policy classes and
like a lot of public policy, a lot of education classes and at
night I was doing theater extracurricularly for fun.
And like week 3 of college, I like had like an aha moment
where I was like, I'm miserable in these classes and I'm having
(39:23):
so much fun at night in these rehearsals and wait, this could
actually be my job. Like, so I think that that
that's and I changed my major totheatre and like didn't look
back, which is especially crazy because in a class of 1600,
there were only, I think 6 theatre majors in my year.
(39:45):
So it was just sort of like people were like, OK, but, but,
but, but I think it was, it justwas like, I have to do this.
I just have to do it. But I think that like, you know,
it's like those that like sort of don't mean cheesy in a bad
way, but it's kind of cheesy. But the people say like, oh, in
your marriage, you have to like choose your partner over and
(40:08):
over again every day. Like every day you have to wake
up and say, like, I choose you. Like I, I, I think, I think
working in the arts is a little bit that way where you have to
wake up today and be like, all right, I choose it.
You know, like today's going to be a 16 hour day, but I'm
choosing it. So I think that it's like, you
know, this, this industry is I'm, you know, better than I do.
(40:31):
I'm sure it's like not for the faint of heart.
And there are days where you're like, why am I doing this to
myself? But then there are also days
where you're like, wow, this is the most rewarding, meaningful
thing ever. And so it's the balance of of of
those two that I think you you have to net out positive in that
equation. I'm sure that there are many,
(40:53):
but what is like a great challenge or project that you
have on the horizon or you want to take on in your future
career? I have 3 new musicals that I'm
attached to right now and one ofthem has a production that will
(41:13):
be announced really soon and theother one we'll likely have a
production on the horizon prettysoon as well.
So I love these shows and I'm really grateful that they're
getting onto stages so. For creatives that don't know
where to start or don't have a strong support system, you've
(41:34):
touched on the collaborators you've had in your career and
and those mentors and supporters.
What advice, resources or encouragement would you have for
young creatives coming up in thedirector space?
I think a few things one, the resources to like learn and soak
in information are so much more out there than they were two
(41:58):
decades ago, even a decade ago. Like the fact that you can like
hop on TikTok and like type in Broadway directing and then like
videos will come up about like being a Broadway director like
that is so new and so valuable. And so I think that like take
advantage of everything that is out there, every podcast that is
(42:20):
out there. Like I think that like I, when I
first started assistant directing, I had a like a side
hustle survival job where I was transcribing podcast summaries
or like writing podcast summaries for the director, the
(42:43):
theatre directors Union for a podcast series that they had
called Masters of the Stage, where I would listen to podcasts
with directors talking about their craft and then I would
write summaries of them. So I listen to like 100 episodes
and I think that like that for me is like the foundation of how
I direct because I listen to 100hours of directors talking about
how they direct. So I think that like use those
(43:06):
resources, they're there, they're free and then make a
website. Websites are like such important
calling cards. And if the cost of a website is
prohibitive, there are like you could do Google Drive folder
that you could have linked to onyour social media.
There are like a lot of creativeways to have an online presence
(43:28):
without having a website specifically.
But I think that when people arelooking to hire, they Google and
they're like, oh, who was that person that I met?
So, so, you know, whatever, how do I contact them?
They can't remember. And if there's not a way to find
you or to like learn more about your work or to share your work
with other people who are hiring, it's a little bit of a
(43:50):
dead end for a lot of people. And so I think that's really
super important. And then I would say just like
hustle really hard, which is maybe terrible advice, but
everyone I know who like is working a lot works really hard
to work, which is sad, but it isthe state of the industry.
(44:14):
And I mean, I sleep very little and I work super, super hard.
And I know a lot of that is trueof a lot of my peers who are
working consistently, which is not to say that it's the only
element. There are many people who work
super, super, super hard and arenot working.
It's a, it's a really unfortunate equation of like,
(44:34):
you know, supply and demand. But I think that it is a
necessary element to be able to work consistently is to work
really hard. Sammy, this has been such a joy
to chow you. Thank you for making the time
of. Course, thank you so much.
It's been it's such a joy and and thank you for having me.
Hi everyone, thanks for listening and being the absolute
(44:55):
best part of our creative community here at What's My
Frame? If you'd like to learn more
about our guests, please check out the show notes and please
join us on socials at What's My Frame?
To stay in the know for upcomingevents, I'm your host, Laura
Linda Bradley. We'll see you next Monday.
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