March 12, 2025 • 26 mins
When I met Ben on Match.com, it was the early 2000s and online dating still carried warnings about meeting axe murderers. Both lonely in New York City, we connected over coffee that turned into a nine-hour adventure across the city. That meeting launched what I fondly call our "Summer of Love" – those magical first months where we experienced what Imago Relationship Therapists call "joyful aliveness." The phase of Romantic Love in which we felt completely seen, valued, and understood by each other.
But when Ben started a high-stress tech job, our dynamic shifted dramatically overnight. The person who had been so present became consumed with work, which only caused my need for connection to intensify. We fell into classic relationship patterns – I became the pursuing "octopus" desperately reaching for connection, while he transformed into the withdrawing "turtle," retreating into his shell when overwhelmed. From a polyvagal perspective, I stayed locked in sympathetic "fix it" mode during conflicts, while he entered dorsal shutdown, finding safety in withdrawal.
What makes our story universal is how we represent what Imago Relationship Therapists call an "Imago match" – unconsciously choosing partners who embody both positive and negative characteristics of our early caregivers. On our very first date, we discovered I was a "cat person" and he was a "dog person" – which was seemingly trivial and yet actually symbolized fundamental differences that would both complement and challenge us through twenty years together. While those differences created painful disconnection at times, they also offered profound healing opportunities precisely because our partner triggered our deepest wounds.
The journey from romantic love to sustainable connection isn't straightforward, but understanding these patterns creates space for growth. If you recognize similar dynamics in your relationship, know that with conscious work, those moments of disconnection can decrease while connection expands. Take just one step today – any size, any direction – because movement toward healing is possible for everyone, even when depression is in your bed.
- If you are looking to take the first step towards improving your connection and communication with your partner, check out this FREE monthly webinar on "Becoming a Conscious Couple,".
- If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat!
For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Today, I will share with yousome of my love story, some of
the things that led to myhusband and I getting together
and falling in love in the firstplace, as well as some of the
things that contributed to itall falling apart.
And, of course, I will sharewith you some of the lessons
that we learned along the way.
(00:22):
Let's get started.
So, while I have beenreferencing little bits and
pieces of my life over the lastsix episodes, I wanted to take
today's episode just to be ableto start to tell you a little
bit more about what I call mylove story, which is the story
of how my husband, ben and Icame together and fell in love
(00:43):
and what our early relationshiplooked like, that sort of set
the stage for me choosing tostay in a 20 year long and still
going strong relationship.
That has really been reallyhard most of the time.
So I've also said before that Iwill be sharing about my story,
(01:04):
and the story I'm about toshare has to do with many, many
other people, and I'm going tobe very respectful of the fact
that I have chosen to start thispodcast and not everybody in my
story has chosen to start theirown podcast sharing their own
personal lives and information.
So I will give you a veryintentionally vague view of some
(01:26):
of the family history factors,childhood factors, that sort of
set Ben and I up to be who weare and really be such a match
for each other in this way, tobe such of what I would call an
Imago match and I'm an Imagorelationship therapist and very
soon, in one of the upcomingepisodes, I will dive more into
(01:47):
imago theory, which has beenabsolutely life-changing for me.
But for today, what an imagomatch means essentially is it's
the person who has just theright collection of positive and
negative characteristics thatyou experienced from your
childhood.
So essentially it's the good,the bad and everything in
between of your early caregivers.
(02:09):
For many of us that means momand dad, but it can be any
collection of parents orparental figures or important
adults or even older siblings inyour life that had an influence
on who you were and who you sawyourself to be and eventually
who you grew up to become.
And so our Mago match is veryspecial because this just right
(02:30):
combination of characteristicsin somebody else allows us to be
essentially triggered in justthe right ways so that we can
actually come to conflicts thathappen in our romantic
partnership in a way that helpsus heal and grow and finish the
unfinished business of ourchildhood experience.
(02:52):
Meaning that in our childhoodall of us, even if you had the
most loving, mostwell-intentioned parents, we
were hurt in the context ofrelationship, because no parent
or caregiver can be 100% exactlywhat we need them to be all of
the time, and so we came awayfrom certain experiences feeling
hurt or disappointed orwhatever we felt, and we take
(03:13):
that into our adult life Again.
I will pause here for thetheory a little bit, but just to
say that there are importantpieces of my childhood and Ben's
childhood experience that ledus to be who we are today, but
because they involve so manyother people, I will not so
publicly share them, but I willgive you a little taste.
So for me, my parents wereseparated when I was about 16
(03:37):
years old and divorced a fewyears later and at the ripe old
age of 19,.
I was surprised by my parents'divorce.
I hadn't seen it coming,although now, as an adult
looking back, it's very clearwhat happened, but as I was
making sense of it as a youngadult, the way that I saw it was
that my parents' functionmatched that's what I sort of
(04:00):
called it back then kind of likethe things they did well sort
of complemented each other incertain ways and that's why they
got together in the first placeand that's what kept them
together and they were togetherfor over 20 years.
But I came to see also as muchas their function matched that
what I called then theirdysfunction matched, which meant
to me that there were thingsabout both of them that caused
(04:22):
conflict and those conflictseither felt insurmountable or
they didn't have the tools orthe resources at the time, or
perhaps from many years oftrying, they didn't have the
desire or just didn't make sensefor them anymore to continue on
and they ended up gettingdivorced.
And that was a very difficultexperience for me and that,
combined with many other aspectsof my childhood experience,
(04:46):
sort of led me to a place in mydating life.
You could sort of say that Iwas looking for love in all the
wrong places and I did not havea history of very stellar
relationships.
I had a history of pretty rocky, very difficult relationships.
When I met Ben, we were both 24years old.
I had not been seriously datingfor a little while, because of
(05:08):
my past history actually and Idecided to go on matchcom, which
back then was so bizarre and soweird.
And people were terrified thatI was going to meet an axe
murderer or something.
And they said things like makesure you meet in public places
and they would want me to tellthem where we were meeting and
what time, just in case Idisappeared off the face of the
(05:30):
earth.
They knew where to tell thecops that I was at last.
But the reason I went onMatchcom is because at that time
in my life I was living inGreenwich Village and I was
going to graduate school for myMaster's of Social Work and when
I had come into the city I hadreally thought that I was going
to really find my people.
I thought, being in social workschool, I was going to find
(05:53):
these passionate people whowanted to change the world for
the better, and I do think thatthose people existed in my
school.
I just think that I found that,being in graduate school, a lot
of us had jobs and we hadinternships and we had really
busy lives.
And so for me, particularly assomeone who lived with
depression, while I'm notsocially anxious meaning I don't
(06:14):
feel anxiety in large groups ofpeople the fear of being judged
doesn't shut me downnecessarily.
But connecting with people cansometimes be very difficult for
me because I can be in thatdorsal state that I've talked
about through the lens ofpolyvagal theory, where I'm sort
of hiding and it feels safer tokind of be in the background.
(06:36):
Now, for people who know me,they find that to be actually
quite hysterical, because I havea tendency to talk a lot.
Making a podcast was not such aleap for me, but it depends
what situations I'm in and whoI'm with, and my ability to talk
a lot does not always mean, asa matter of fact, it often
doesn't translate to me beingable to connect well.
(06:57):
So sometimes I can be tootalkative.
That makes connection difficult, and other times I can be
actually almost silent, whichalso makes connection really
difficult.
So when I found myself ingraduate school with a bunch of
very busy people, I had a veryhard time connecting with
anybody and luckily, as I'vementioned before, I had cousins
who lived in the area, so I wasable to see them.
(07:18):
But my friends who I had grownup with and had gone to college
with.
They didn't live too far, theylived just on the other side of
the bridge in New Jersey but itjust wasn't always easy or
convenient for them to come intothe city or for me to get back
home and see them.
So it's not that I was incomplete and total isolation,
but my day-to-day life wasdefinitely lonelier than I
expected it to be moving to thecity, which I love New York City
(07:41):
and I was raised in Queens andI feel very connected to the
city, and so I was reallyexpecting it to be a wonderful
experience for me, and when Igot there it really wasn't.
So that's a little bit aboutwhere I was.
When I decided to go onMatchcom, I was really looking
for friends or anybody that Icould just spend some time with,
in addition to my cousins, whoI luckily had available to me.
(08:02):
And so for Ben, I'm going tohold off on his childhood
introduction, for when heactually comes on and can speak
for himself, I think that it isjust a more honoring way for him
to tell his story than for meto tell his story for him.
But just like all of us, he hadhis own childhood experiences,
his own early experiences thatshaped him and led him to New
(08:23):
York City.
He traveled in what I think isan interesting path to get to
New York City because, whereas Iwas born in New York and led
him to New York City, hetraveled in what I think is an
interesting path to get to NewYork City because, whereas I was
born in New York and had movedto New Jersey in late elementary
school and was very connectedto New York I wasn't far from
home by any stretch, but Benactually was raised in Maryland
and he had gone to school up inBoston and he had come to live
(08:46):
in New York City because at thetime he had come to New York for
work opportunities, to workwith certain people that he
really wanted to work with.
And actually by the time I methim he was already going through
a career change.
He'd been doing audioengineering for a few years and
had had some success with it andhad decided to shift gears
because of the very hecticschedule and very unpredictable
(09:07):
hours of work and he had shiftedinto IT.
So I actually met him right athis shift in career.
He had gone on Matchcom at thattime for his own reasons,
because his childhood friendsdid not live in New York City.
His college friends did notlive in New York City and the
friends and colleagues he had inthe music industry, although
(09:27):
they were still there, they werestill working the same
unpredictable sort of crazyhours that came with that line
of work, and so he was feelinglonely himself and of course
also a long history ofdepression and his own, I'll
call them maybe challenges withconnection led him to choose to
go on Matchcom as well so thathe, as his profile said, could
(09:51):
find cool people to do coolthings with in New York City.
I wasn't on Matchcom for verylong.
I don't think either of us wereon it for very long.
I had gone on a couple of dates, I think maybe three or four
dates, before meeting Ben.
Actually they were only allfirst dates.
They were perfectly fine, butthey weren't people that I
necessarily wanted to be friendswith and they also weren't
necessarily people that I wantedto date.
(10:12):
So they all fizzled out prettyquickly.
But then I met Ben and myrelationship with him started
off really strong right off thebat.
Back then, after moving off ofthe matchcom chat, we went to
chatting on AOL InstantMessenger, if you remember for
those of you who remember that,and I was in the end of my
(10:33):
semester in school, so I had alot of different papers to write
.
And he would message me and Iwould say I'm writing a paper
and then he would message me atsome other point.
I'd be like I'm writing a paperand it kind of went on like
this and at one point he saidhey, you know, that must really
be one amazing paper becauseyou're working on it around the
clock.
And I thought that was reallyfunny because I had many
different papers that I wasworking on and I told him so.
(10:55):
But he was very sweet becausethis spanned over several weeks
and I kept trying to give themessage like I do want to
connect.
I'm just busy at the moment,which, by the way, is a huge
theme in my life, even today.
It's a major barrier that Ihave to connection in general
and it's kind of something thatI live with and the people who
are in my life now and of courseBen, but I mean other people,
friends and even family ifthey're in my life, they kind of
(11:17):
, unfortunately, have to know orI imagine they have to know
that I love them, even though Isometimes go dark, I get
overwhelmed, I get busy, I'mtrying to do a lot of things and
I just have a very hard timemanaging my social connections
in addition to the to do's in mylife.
So, anyhow, that's a wholeother episode, another day, but
(11:39):
it's been like that my entirelife.
So I was really grateful that,even though I kept saying, hey,
I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy,but I was also saying like,
message me later or, you know,as soon as I'm done with my
semester, like I'll be able tochat more.
So he didn't take it personallyand he hung in there for those
several weeks and I just thoughtit was really sweet and he
would just send me cute littlefunny messages and he wasn't
pressuring, he wasn't gross, hewasn't sending me, you know,
(12:02):
like sexually charged,unsolicited messages or anything
like that.
Like he was just really sweetand seemed really kind.
So after my semester was over,we decided to finally meet for
the first time, and so we did.
I will let Ben tell you hisversion of the story at some
other time.
Perhaps we have slightlydifferent stories.
He says that I was running verylate and he was going to leave
(12:26):
the first date.
I don't recall running as lateas he remembers.
But that has also been alifelong challenge for us,
because I have a tendency to runjust on time, which often makes
me run a little bit behindschedule, and he's the kind of
person that would rather bethere three hours early than a
minute late Very commonrelational challenge dynamic
right there, by the way.
(12:47):
But I did show up and in ourvery first conversation we
talked about how I was a catperson and he was a dog person,
which was so interesting.
It was a funny, sillyconversation then, although true
, but it really set the stagefor our entire lives and our
whole relationship and the ideaof being an Imago match, that a
lot of the time, imago matcheshave qualities that are very
(13:10):
different, very opposing or veryopposite, and so the fact I was
a cat person, he was a dogperson, shows up in many, many,
many ways throughout the wholerest of our lives.
But we enjoyed each other andwe had a very nice time, and our
coffee date actually turnedinto nine hours of hanging out
together and we went toWashington Square Park and we
(13:31):
went to Grand Central Station,because I told him I'd never
been there before and hecouldn't believe that I'd grown
up in New York and I'd neverbeen to Grand Central Station
before.
So we went there and we went todinner eventually, and then I
walked him to the subway to saygoodnight and I can't say for
certain, maybe we hugged, wemight have just shook hands, but
there was no goodnight kissthat I can tell you.
And we started dating, thedetails of which maybe I'll
(13:54):
share another time.
But we did eventually startdating exclusively, and I've
referred to this before.
But we had what I call thesummer of love.
We had met in May for the firsttime and because he was going
through this career change heactually was finishing up his IT
certification and I was takingsome summer class, but it was a
light caseload, and so we hadthis little window of time
(14:15):
before he ended up starting hisnew IT job in September.
So we had these few monthswhere we really got to have this
connected, almost no stress, noreal world stresses going on in
our life, and it was justbeautiful and neither of us were
depressed and neither of uswere stressed, and I would say
(14:36):
that we were just our authentic,true selves and we got to know
each other and it was reallydelightful.
I felt really important and Ifelt really special and he was
way different than the guys Ihad previously dated and I was
pretty all-in after what I callthe summer of love.
And then, once he started hisnew job, which was for a very
(15:02):
high stress startup company,things started to change pretty
much overnight and so I startedto see a different experience of
Ben stressed out Ben and,through a polyvagal lens, you
know, I got to see him insurvival mode a lot more of the
time.
He was either in that fight orflight mode of sympathetic, when
he was super busy with work andhe would get up all hours of
(15:24):
the night when they needed himto do whatever they needed him
to do.
You know, he was in IT, so hehad things that went wrong or
work he had to do in the middleof the night sometimes and he
was either, you know, kind oflike there's like fires
everywhere and I have to putthem out constantly, and so he
was like super stressed andreally overwhelmed with work but
doing it and making it allhappen and his energy was really
being exhausted on that, or hewould be depressed and shut down
(15:44):
, particularly if we had had anargument or a conflict, usually
about me feeling that I was nowless important than his job.
I had felt so important and sovalued in that summer of love
that when he started spending somuch time at work I really felt
very unimportant and veryunloved.
And so we really started tohave this very challenging
(16:06):
relationship, dynamic and inImago Theory that I'll talk to
you more about in an upcomingepisode, I took on what we
lovingly call the octopus roleor the maximizer role of really
reaching out, trying to talk andproblem solve and, you know,
address the issues.
And he took on in Imago what welovingly call the turtle and he
(16:27):
would withdraw and shut down.
And there were so many nightswhen I was awake, crying, upset
or maybe numbed out watching Lawand Order, svu Special Victims
Unit, which I used to watch alot back then and he'd be in bed
sleeping because he would justshut down after an argument and
he would just go soundly tosleep.
And I couldn't sleep because Iwas wound up.
(16:48):
Now, from a polyvagalperspective, I was in a
sympathetic state, a fight orflight response, a fixed
response, like I have to fixthis, I have to do something
about this and he was in adorsal response, which was I
have more safety in shuttingdown and withdrawing than facing
this thing that I don't knowhow to face.
So we kind of stayed in thatdynamic really for most of our
(17:09):
lives.
Honestly, I mean, things gotbetter and worse at certain
points and we learned differentthings that were helpful a bit
here and there along the way andwe did absolutely get back to
places where we were both inpolyvagal terms I would say we
were both in ventral, we wereboth in regulated states, we
were feeling grounded, say.
We were both in ventral, wewere both in regulated states.
We were feeling grounded,connected, safe, and my octopus
(17:32):
tendencies, his turtletendencies, would ease and he
would stick his head out of hisshell and my tentacles would
relax and, you know, we wouldcertainly be able to have little
glimmers of that summer of love.
And so I knew that we still hadwhat we had had in the
beginning, but we had it a teenytiny amount of the time.
There was a lot of verychallenging times for us and
(17:52):
again, we both had this reallylong history of depression and
in our early days we both feltin a manga we call it joyful
aliveness and that is such anexcellent description of what we
had during that early romanticlove phase in our relationship,
we had absolute joyful aliveness.
We had this true connection.
We both felt seen and heard andcared for and understood and
(18:14):
important and worthy and secureand safe and it was really
glorious.
And when we lost that it wasextremely painful.
In Imago we call that the powerstruggle, and we were really
stuck in the power struggle alot of the time.
In Polyvagal we would say.
We were dysregulated a lot ofthe time, a significant amount
(18:34):
of the time, a huge amount ofthe time.
Yet when we were able to getback to a place of regulation,
back to a place of safety, backto a place of connection, it was
as wonderful as it had alwaysbeen.
And so we really fluctuatedbetween huge amounts of power
struggle and dysregulation andrather small slivers of
regulated, connected, pleasant,lovable, enjoyable, wonderful
(18:57):
space up until the time we endedup getting engaged, which was
five years into our relationship.
I definitely can talk more aboutand will talk more about what
led to us separating.
It feels like it makes moresense to have that part of the
conversation with Ben, so maybeI will invite him.
I mean, he's already beeninvited and is interested in
(19:17):
joining the podcast, but maybe Iwill invite him specifically to
talk about that part of therelationship as his introductory
episode onto the podcast forhis first co-host experience.
But for now I will sort ofpause on that place so that I
can explore that further withBen.
But just to say that we werejust like my parents Again, when
(19:39):
I was 19, I used the wordsfunction and dysfunction.
I wouldn't use function anddysfunction anymore.
Now I have a much deeperunderstanding of the unconscious
forces that attract us inrelationship and how the things
that we most long for in ourrelationship are often the
things that are hardest for ourpartner to give us.
And that's because it'sactually connected to our
(20:01):
childhood unmet needs and it'salso connected to, in a manga,
what we call lost parts, whichmeans that there are
characteristics that our partnerlost access to and what we need
from them is usually a directlink to the parts that they kind
of gave up or lost.
I will talk more about that,but now I have a much more rich
understanding of those dynamics,but it really was so very
(20:24):
similar.
The details were different, butit was very similar to my
parents' experience and, I think, very similar to many people's
experience in relationship thatwhen we first meet somebody,
there is usually this period oftime in a manga we call it
romantic love where we feel socomplete, so whole, so seen, so
in alignment, like this is myother half, this is my perfect
(20:45):
person, person where have youbeen all my life.
And there's this reallydelicious, fun, exciting period
where it feels like we couldwant for nothing, you know, like
just being together is allwe'll ever need and they have
everything that we need and wehave everything that they need
and we're just two peas in ahappy little pod and that's a
really delightful time inrelationship.
(21:07):
And most people have someperiod of romantic love, we say
in Imago that can last anywherebetween two hours and 18 months.
Generally, and I would sayusually it lasts for probably
three to six months in mostrelationships For Ben and I.
I actually could go back.
I have a journal from thosevery early days and I probably
could pinpoint exactly when thepower struggle hit in for us,
(21:28):
but it was probably around thethree or four month mark, I
would guess.
And for many years I used to sayto Ben that I love the real Ben
and he would get reallyoffended by that, which I
thought it was a really lovelything to tell somebody like I
love the real you, but what Iwas really saying was, like this
sort of person that I didn'tknow and didn't particularly
like a lot of the time, quitehonestly, was not the real Ben
(21:50):
and he was like, well, this iswho I am.
Like what do you mean?
Like I don't know what you'retalking about.
Like this is the real me, andnow again, through a polyvagal
lens, there's such beautifullanguage around like when Ben is
regulated, he is.
You know, of course, we're bothimperfect humans, but he is
just very much the person that Ilove being with.
I really like him as a person.
I think he's really wonderfuland funny and intelligent and
(22:14):
interesting and I just likebeing around him.
I just like being with him, Ilove sharing our lives together.
However, when he's dysregulated,and sometimes that looks like
that sympathetic, busy at workkind of chaotic, overwhelmed
part which is challenging to bearound, or that depressive
experience of being shut down,collapsed.
(22:36):
And again, I think that itfeels most honoring to talk
about some of Ben's depressiveepisodes with Ben present, so
that I have full consent overwhat makes sense for him to say,
because he'll be saying it notme, but the story I tell myself
at this point in our lives isthat I think that I could say
this for both of us we have bothgrown a lot in our depression
(22:58):
and our relationship to ourdepression and our relationship
to each other, and we've learneda lot along the way and we are
both in such a different placethan we've ever been before and
it's been such an incrediblyrewarding journey.
It's also been a very hard andlong journey and if I had known
20 years ago the things that Iknow now, it still would have
(23:19):
been challenging for sure,because healing and growth
journeys are in fact,challenging at parts along the
way, but I think that it wouldhave been a shorter journey in a
lot of places.
I don't regret it, because Icouldn't have known then what I
know now, but what I can do isbe able to share what I have
learned with others, and that'swhy I'm here with you today.
(23:40):
So I hope you enjoyed hearingjust a little bit more about my
love story with Ben, and I lookforward to having Ben come on
and co-host with me so I canshare more with you about our
relationship and I will continueto share my learnings and the
pearls of wisdom that I havecome across along my path, so
(24:02):
that you, too, can grow and healin a way that makes sense for
you and your relationship, sothat you can come to a place in
your life that feels much, muchbetter than those really hard
struggling parts.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments, becauseI want to thank you for showing
(24:23):
up today and I want to leaveyou with an invitation as you
hit, stop and move back out intothe world on your own unique
wellness journey In order tomove from where you are today to
the place where you want to be.
The path may seem long orunclear or unknown, and I want
you to know that if that seemsscary or daunting or downright
(24:44):
terrifying or anything else,that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at once
.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride, and that is why
my invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
(25:08):
it could be a step youvisualize, taking in your mind.
It can be a step towards action, or towards rest, or connection
, or self-care, or whatever stepmakes sense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday, because getting to a
place that feels better, morejoyful, more connected than the
place where you are today ispossible for everyone, including
(25:31):
you, and even when depressionis in your bed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media at trishsanderslcsw.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes and I love
(25:51):
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may
be interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
a step.
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Today, I will share with yousome of my love story, some of
the things that led to myhusband and I getting together
and falling in love in the firstplace, as well as some of the
things that contributed to itall falling apart.
And, of course, I will sharewith you some of the lessons
that we learned along the way.
(00:22):
Let's get started.
So, while I have beenreferencing little bits and
pieces of my life over the lastsix episodes, I wanted to take
today's episode just to be ableto start to tell you a little
bit more about what I call mylove story, which is the story
of how my husband, ben and Icame together and fell in love
(00:43):
and what our early relationshiplooked like, that sort of set
the stage for me choosing tostay in a 20 year long and still
going strong relationship.
That has really been reallyhard most of the time.
So I've also said before that Iwill be sharing about my story,
(01:04):
and the story I'm about toshare has to do with many, many
other people, and I'm going tobe very respectful of the fact
that I have chosen to start thispodcast and not everybody in my
story has chosen to start theirown podcast sharing their own
personal lives and information.
So I will give you a veryintentionally vague view of some
(01:26):
of the family history factors,childhood factors, that sort of
set Ben and I up to be who weare and really be such a match
for each other in this way, tobe such of what I would call an
Imago match and I'm an Imagorelationship therapist and very
soon, in one of the upcomingepisodes, I will dive more into
(01:47):
imago theory, which has beenabsolutely life-changing for me.
But for today, what an imagomatch means essentially is it's
the person who has just theright collection of positive and
negative characteristics thatyou experienced from your
childhood.
So essentially it's the good,the bad and everything in
between of your early caregivers.
(02:09):
For many of us that means momand dad, but it can be any
collection of parents orparental figures or important
adults or even older siblings inyour life that had an influence
on who you were and who you sawyourself to be and eventually
who you grew up to become.
And so our Mago match is veryspecial because this just right
(02:30):
combination of characteristicsin somebody else allows us to be
essentially triggered in justthe right ways so that we can
actually come to conflicts thathappen in our romantic
partnership in a way that helpsus heal and grow and finish the
unfinished business of ourchildhood experience.
(02:52):
Meaning that in our childhoodall of us, even if you had the
most loving, mostwell-intentioned parents, we
were hurt in the context ofrelationship, because no parent
or caregiver can be 100% exactlywhat we need them to be all of
the time, and so we came awayfrom certain experiences feeling
hurt or disappointed orwhatever we felt, and we take
(03:13):
that into our adult life Again.
I will pause here for thetheory a little bit, but just to
say that there are importantpieces of my childhood and Ben's
childhood experience that ledus to be who we are today, but
because they involve so manyother people, I will not so
publicly share them, but I willgive you a little taste.
So for me, my parents wereseparated when I was about 16
(03:37):
years old and divorced a fewyears later and at the ripe old
age of 19,.
I was surprised by my parents'divorce.
I hadn't seen it coming,although now, as an adult
looking back, it's very clearwhat happened, but as I was
making sense of it as a youngadult, the way that I saw it was
that my parents' functionmatched that's what I sort of
(04:00):
called it back then kind of likethe things they did well sort
of complemented each other incertain ways and that's why they
got together in the first placeand that's what kept them
together and they were togetherfor over 20 years.
But I came to see also as muchas their function matched that
what I called then theirdysfunction matched, which meant
to me that there were thingsabout both of them that caused
(04:22):
conflict and those conflictseither felt insurmountable or
they didn't have the tools orthe resources at the time, or
perhaps from many years oftrying, they didn't have the
desire or just didn't make sensefor them anymore to continue on
and they ended up gettingdivorced.
And that was a very difficultexperience for me and that,
combined with many other aspectsof my childhood experience,
(04:46):
sort of led me to a place in mydating life.
You could sort of say that Iwas looking for love in all the
wrong places and I did not havea history of very stellar
relationships.
I had a history of pretty rocky, very difficult relationships.
When I met Ben, we were both 24years old.
I had not been seriously datingfor a little while, because of
(05:08):
my past history actually and Idecided to go on matchcom, which
back then was so bizarre and soweird.
And people were terrified thatI was going to meet an axe
murderer or something.
And they said things like makesure you meet in public places
and they would want me to tellthem where we were meeting and
what time, just in case Idisappeared off the face of the
(05:30):
earth.
They knew where to tell thecops that I was at last.
But the reason I went onMatchcom is because at that time
in my life I was living inGreenwich Village and I was
going to graduate school for myMaster's of Social Work and when
I had come into the city I hadreally thought that I was going
to really find my people.
I thought, being in social workschool, I was going to find
(05:53):
these passionate people whowanted to change the world for
the better, and I do think thatthose people existed in my
school.
I just think that I found that,being in graduate school, a lot
of us had jobs and we hadinternships and we had really
busy lives.
And so for me, particularly assomeone who lived with
depression, while I'm notsocially anxious meaning I don't
(06:14):
feel anxiety in large groups ofpeople the fear of being judged
doesn't shut me downnecessarily.
But connecting with people cansometimes be very difficult for
me because I can be in thatdorsal state that I've talked
about through the lens ofpolyvagal theory, where I'm sort
of hiding and it feels safer tokind of be in the background.
(06:36):
Now, for people who know me,they find that to be actually
quite hysterical, because I havea tendency to talk a lot.
Making a podcast was not such aleap for me, but it depends
what situations I'm in and whoI'm with, and my ability to talk
a lot does not always mean, asa matter of fact, it often
doesn't translate to me beingable to connect well.
(06:57):
So sometimes I can be tootalkative.
That makes connection difficult, and other times I can be
actually almost silent, whichalso makes connection really
difficult.
So when I found myself ingraduate school with a bunch of
very busy people, I had a veryhard time connecting with
anybody and luckily, as I'vementioned before, I had cousins
who lived in the area, so I wasable to see them.
(07:18):
But my friends who I had grownup with and had gone to college
with.
They didn't live too far, theylived just on the other side of
the bridge in New Jersey but itjust wasn't always easy or
convenient for them to come intothe city or for me to get back
home and see them.
So it's not that I was incomplete and total isolation,
but my day-to-day life wasdefinitely lonelier than I
expected it to be moving to thecity, which I love New York City
(07:41):
and I was raised in Queens andI feel very connected to the
city, and so I was reallyexpecting it to be a wonderful
experience for me, and when Igot there it really wasn't.
So that's a little bit aboutwhere I was.
When I decided to go onMatchcom, I was really looking
for friends or anybody that Icould just spend some time with,
in addition to my cousins, whoI luckily had available to me.
(08:02):
And so for Ben, I'm going tohold off on his childhood
introduction, for when heactually comes on and can speak
for himself, I think that it isjust a more honoring way for him
to tell his story than for meto tell his story for him.
But just like all of us, he hadhis own childhood experiences,
his own early experiences thatshaped him and led him to New
(08:23):
York City.
He traveled in what I think isan interesting path to get to
New York City because, whereas Iwas born in New York and led
him to New York City, hetraveled in what I think is an
interesting path to get to NewYork City because, whereas I was
born in New York and had movedto New Jersey in late elementary
school and was very connectedto New York I wasn't far from
home by any stretch, but Benactually was raised in Maryland
and he had gone to school up inBoston and he had come to live
(08:46):
in New York City because at thetime he had come to New York for
work opportunities, to workwith certain people that he
really wanted to work with.
And actually by the time I methim he was already going through
a career change.
He'd been doing audioengineering for a few years and
had had some success with it andhad decided to shift gears
because of the very hecticschedule and very unpredictable
(09:07):
hours of work and he had shiftedinto IT.
So I actually met him right athis shift in career.
He had gone on Matchcom at thattime for his own reasons,
because his childhood friendsdid not live in New York City.
His college friends did notlive in New York City and the
friends and colleagues he had inthe music industry, although
(09:27):
they were still there, they werestill working the same
unpredictable sort of crazyhours that came with that line
of work, and so he was feelinglonely himself and of course
also a long history ofdepression and his own, I'll
call them maybe challenges withconnection led him to choose to
go on Matchcom as well so thathe, as his profile said, could
(09:51):
find cool people to do coolthings with in New York City.
I wasn't on Matchcom for verylong.
I don't think either of us wereon it for very long.
I had gone on a couple of dates, I think maybe three or four
dates, before meeting Ben.
Actually they were only allfirst dates.
They were perfectly fine, butthey weren't people that I
necessarily wanted to be friendswith and they also weren't
necessarily people that I wantedto date.
(10:12):
So they all fizzled out prettyquickly.
But then I met Ben and myrelationship with him started
off really strong right off thebat.
Back then, after moving off ofthe matchcom chat, we went to
chatting on AOL InstantMessenger, if you remember for
those of you who remember that,and I was in the end of my
(10:33):
semester in school, so I had alot of different papers to write
.
And he would message me and Iwould say I'm writing a paper
and then he would message me atsome other point.
I'd be like I'm writing a paperand it kind of went on like
this and at one point he saidhey, you know, that must really
be one amazing paper becauseyou're working on it around the
clock.
And I thought that was reallyfunny because I had many
different papers that I wasworking on and I told him so.
(10:55):
But he was very sweet becausethis spanned over several weeks
and I kept trying to give themessage like I do want to
connect.
I'm just busy at the moment,which, by the way, is a huge
theme in my life, even today.
It's a major barrier that Ihave to connection in general
and it's kind of something thatI live with and the people who
are in my life now and of courseBen, but I mean other people,
friends and even family ifthey're in my life, they kind of
(11:17):
, unfortunately, have to know orI imagine they have to know
that I love them, even though Isometimes go dark, I get
overwhelmed, I get busy, I'mtrying to do a lot of things and
I just have a very hard timemanaging my social connections
in addition to the to do's in mylife.
So, anyhow, that's a wholeother episode, another day, but
(11:39):
it's been like that my entirelife.
So I was really grateful that,even though I kept saying, hey,
I'm busy, I'm busy, I'm busy,but I was also saying like,
message me later or, you know,as soon as I'm done with my
semester, like I'll be able tochat more.
So he didn't take it personallyand he hung in there for those
several weeks and I just thoughtit was really sweet and he
would just send me cute littlefunny messages and he wasn't
pressuring, he wasn't gross, hewasn't sending me, you know,
(12:02):
like sexually charged,unsolicited messages or anything
like that.
Like he was just really sweetand seemed really kind.
So after my semester was over,we decided to finally meet for
the first time, and so we did.
I will let Ben tell you hisversion of the story at some
other time.
Perhaps we have slightlydifferent stories.
He says that I was running verylate and he was going to leave
(12:26):
the first date.
I don't recall running as lateas he remembers.
But that has also been alifelong challenge for us,
because I have a tendency to runjust on time, which often makes
me run a little bit behindschedule, and he's the kind of
person that would rather bethere three hours early than a
minute late Very commonrelational challenge dynamic
right there, by the way.
(12:47):
But I did show up and in ourvery first conversation we
talked about how I was a catperson and he was a dog person,
which was so interesting.
It was a funny, sillyconversation then, although true
, but it really set the stagefor our entire lives and our
whole relationship and the ideaof being an Imago match, that a
lot of the time, imago matcheshave qualities that are very
(13:10):
different, very opposing or veryopposite, and so the fact I was
a cat person, he was a dogperson, shows up in many, many,
many ways throughout the wholerest of our lives.
But we enjoyed each other andwe had a very nice time, and our
coffee date actually turnedinto nine hours of hanging out
together and we went toWashington Square Park and we
(13:31):
went to Grand Central Station,because I told him I'd never
been there before and hecouldn't believe that I'd grown
up in New York and I'd neverbeen to Grand Central Station
before.
So we went there and we went todinner eventually, and then I
walked him to the subway to saygoodnight and I can't say for
certain, maybe we hugged, wemight have just shook hands, but
there was no goodnight kissthat I can tell you.
And we started dating, thedetails of which maybe I'll
(13:54):
share another time.
But we did eventually startdating exclusively, and I've
referred to this before.
But we had what I call thesummer of love.
We had met in May for the firsttime and because he was going
through this career change heactually was finishing up his IT
certification and I was takingsome summer class, but it was a
light caseload, and so we hadthis little window of time
(14:15):
before he ended up starting hisnew IT job in September.
So we had these few monthswhere we really got to have this
connected, almost no stress, noreal world stresses going on in
our life, and it was justbeautiful and neither of us were
depressed and neither of uswere stressed, and I would say
(14:36):
that we were just our authentic,true selves and we got to know
each other and it was reallydelightful.
I felt really important and Ifelt really special and he was
way different than the guys Ihad previously dated and I was
pretty all-in after what I callthe summer of love.
And then, once he started hisnew job, which was for a very
(15:02):
high stress startup company,things started to change pretty
much overnight and so I startedto see a different experience of
Ben stressed out Ben and,through a polyvagal lens, you
know, I got to see him insurvival mode a lot more of the
time.
He was either in that fight orflight mode of sympathetic, when
he was super busy with work andhe would get up all hours of
(15:24):
the night when they needed himto do whatever they needed him
to do.
You know, he was in IT, so hehad things that went wrong or
work he had to do in the middleof the night sometimes and he
was either, you know, kind oflike there's like fires
everywhere and I have to putthem out constantly, and so he
was like super stressed andreally overwhelmed with work but
doing it and making it allhappen and his energy was really
being exhausted on that, or hewould be depressed and shut down
(15:44):
, particularly if we had had anargument or a conflict, usually
about me feeling that I was nowless important than his job.
I had felt so important and sovalued in that summer of love
that when he started spending somuch time at work I really felt
very unimportant and veryunloved.
And so we really started tohave this very challenging
(16:06):
relationship, dynamic and inImago Theory that I'll talk to
you more about in an upcomingepisode, I took on what we
lovingly call the octopus roleor the maximizer role of really
reaching out, trying to talk andproblem solve and, you know,
address the issues.
And he took on in Imago what welovingly call the turtle and he
(16:27):
would withdraw and shut down.
And there were so many nightswhen I was awake, crying, upset
or maybe numbed out watching Lawand Order, svu Special Victims
Unit, which I used to watch alot back then and he'd be in bed
sleeping because he would justshut down after an argument and
he would just go soundly tosleep.
And I couldn't sleep because Iwas wound up.
(16:48):
Now, from a polyvagalperspective, I was in a
sympathetic state, a fight orflight response, a fixed
response, like I have to fixthis, I have to do something
about this and he was in adorsal response, which was I
have more safety in shuttingdown and withdrawing than facing
this thing that I don't knowhow to face.
So we kind of stayed in thatdynamic really for most of our
(17:09):
lives.
Honestly, I mean, things gotbetter and worse at certain
points and we learned differentthings that were helpful a bit
here and there along the way andwe did absolutely get back to
places where we were both inpolyvagal terms I would say we
were both in ventral, we wereboth in regulated states, we
were feeling grounded, say.
We were both in ventral, wewere both in regulated states.
We were feeling grounded,connected, safe, and my octopus
(17:32):
tendencies, his turtletendencies, would ease and he
would stick his head out of hisshell and my tentacles would
relax and, you know, we wouldcertainly be able to have little
glimmers of that summer of love.
And so I knew that we still hadwhat we had had in the
beginning, but we had it a teenytiny amount of the time.
There was a lot of verychallenging times for us and
(17:52):
again, we both had this reallylong history of depression and
in our early days we both feltin a manga we call it joyful
aliveness and that is such anexcellent description of what we
had during that early romanticlove phase in our relationship,
we had absolute joyful aliveness.
We had this true connection.
We both felt seen and heard andcared for and understood and
(18:14):
important and worthy and secureand safe and it was really
glorious.
And when we lost that it wasextremely painful.
In Imago we call that the powerstruggle, and we were really
stuck in the power struggle alot of the time.
In Polyvagal we would say.
We were dysregulated a lot ofthe time, a significant amount
(18:34):
of the time, a huge amount ofthe time.
Yet when we were able to getback to a place of regulation,
back to a place of safety, backto a place of connection, it was
as wonderful as it had alwaysbeen.
And so we really fluctuatedbetween huge amounts of power
struggle and dysregulation andrather small slivers of
regulated, connected, pleasant,lovable, enjoyable, wonderful
(18:57):
space up until the time we endedup getting engaged, which was
five years into our relationship.
I definitely can talk more aboutand will talk more about what
led to us separating.
It feels like it makes moresense to have that part of the
conversation with Ben, so maybeI will invite him.
I mean, he's already beeninvited and is interested in
(19:17):
joining the podcast, but maybe Iwill invite him specifically to
talk about that part of therelationship as his introductory
episode onto the podcast forhis first co-host experience.
But for now I will sort ofpause on that place so that I
can explore that further withBen.
But just to say that we werejust like my parents Again, when
(19:39):
I was 19, I used the wordsfunction and dysfunction.
I wouldn't use function anddysfunction anymore.
Now I have a much deeperunderstanding of the unconscious
forces that attract us inrelationship and how the things
that we most long for in ourrelationship are often the
things that are hardest for ourpartner to give us.
And that's because it'sactually connected to our
(20:01):
childhood unmet needs and it'salso connected to, in a manga,
what we call lost parts, whichmeans that there are
characteristics that our partnerlost access to and what we need
from them is usually a directlink to the parts that they kind
of gave up or lost.
I will talk more about that,but now I have a much more rich
understanding of those dynamics,but it really was so very
(20:24):
similar.
The details were different, butit was very similar to my
parents' experience and, I think, very similar to many people's
experience in relationship thatwhen we first meet somebody,
there is usually this period oftime in a manga we call it
romantic love where we feel socomplete, so whole, so seen, so
in alignment, like this is myother half, this is my perfect
(20:45):
person, person where have youbeen all my life.
And there's this reallydelicious, fun, exciting period
where it feels like we couldwant for nothing, you know, like
just being together is allwe'll ever need and they have
everything that we need and wehave everything that they need
and we're just two peas in ahappy little pod and that's a
really delightful time inrelationship.
(21:07):
And most people have someperiod of romantic love, we say
in Imago that can last anywherebetween two hours and 18 months.
Generally, and I would sayusually it lasts for probably
three to six months in mostrelationships For Ben and I.
I actually could go back.
I have a journal from thosevery early days and I probably
could pinpoint exactly when thepower struggle hit in for us,
(21:28):
but it was probably around thethree or four month mark, I
would guess.
And for many years I used to sayto Ben that I love the real Ben
and he would get reallyoffended by that, which I
thought it was a really lovelything to tell somebody like I
love the real you, but what Iwas really saying was, like this
sort of person that I didn'tknow and didn't particularly
like a lot of the time, quitehonestly, was not the real Ben
(21:50):
and he was like, well, this iswho I am.
Like what do you mean?
Like I don't know what you'retalking about.
Like this is the real me, andnow again, through a polyvagal
lens, there's such beautifullanguage around like when Ben is
regulated, he is.
You know, of course, we're bothimperfect humans, but he is
just very much the person that Ilove being with.
I really like him as a person.
I think he's really wonderfuland funny and intelligent and
(22:14):
interesting and I just likebeing around him.
I just like being with him, Ilove sharing our lives together.
However, when he's dysregulated,and sometimes that looks like
that sympathetic, busy at workkind of chaotic, overwhelmed
part which is challenging to bearound, or that depressive
experience of being shut down,collapsed.
(22:36):
And again, I think that itfeels most honoring to talk
about some of Ben's depressiveepisodes with Ben present, so
that I have full consent overwhat makes sense for him to say,
because he'll be saying it notme, but the story I tell myself
at this point in our lives isthat I think that I could say
this for both of us we have bothgrown a lot in our depression
(22:58):
and our relationship to ourdepression and our relationship
to each other, and we've learneda lot along the way and we are
both in such a different placethan we've ever been before and
it's been such an incrediblyrewarding journey.
It's also been a very hard andlong journey and if I had known
20 years ago the things that Iknow now, it still would have
(23:19):
been challenging for sure,because healing and growth
journeys are in fact,challenging at parts along the
way, but I think that it wouldhave been a shorter journey in a
lot of places.
I don't regret it, because Icouldn't have known then what I
know now, but what I can do isbe able to share what I have
learned with others, and that'swhy I'm here with you today.
(23:40):
So I hope you enjoyed hearingjust a little bit more about my
love story with Ben, and I lookforward to having Ben come on
and co-host with me so I canshare more with you about our
relationship and I will continueto share my learnings and the
pearls of wisdom that I havecome across along my path, so
(24:02):
that you, too, can grow and healin a way that makes sense for
you and your relationship, sothat you can come to a place in
your life that feels much, muchbetter than those really hard
struggling parts.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments, becauseI want to thank you for showing
(24:23):
up today and I want to leaveyou with an invitation as you
hit, stop and move back out intothe world on your own unique
wellness journey In order tomove from where you are today to
the place where you want to be.
The path may seem long orunclear or unknown, and I want
you to know that if that seemsscary or daunting or downright
(24:44):
terrifying or anything else,that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at once
.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride, and that is why
my invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
(25:08):
it could be a step youvisualize, taking in your mind.
It can be a step towards action, or towards rest, or connection
, or self-care, or whatever stepmakes sense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday, because getting to a
place that feels better, morejoyful, more connected than the
place where you are today ispossible for everyone, including
(25:31):
you, and even when depressionis in your bed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media at trishsanderslcsw.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes and I love
(25:51):
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may
be interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
a step.
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