April 9, 2025 • 24 mins
Why do we stay in relationships that don't fulfill us? What invisible forces bind us to partners even when our conscious mind desires change? The answer lies beneath the surface of awareness, in the powerful realm of unconscious attachment patterns formed decades ago.
This deep-dive exploration uncovers the second question in my seven-question framework for making conscious relationship decisions: understanding the unconscious factors keeping you tethered to your current partnership. Drawing from Imago Relationship Theory, I explain how our earliest experiences with caregivers create an internal "image" of what love should look and feel like—and how this unconscious template drives our adult relationship choices with remarkable precision.
When we're drawn to someone, it's rarely about conscious compatibility. Rather, we're responding to a familiar energetic signature that matches our childhood experiences. The painful truth? Sometimes what feels like "home" isn't healthy or what we consciously desire at all. I share my personal journey with unconscious beliefs about being undeserving of happiness and how these convictions, deeply rooted in my unconscious, contributed to me accepting relationship dynamics that often didn't serve my wellbeing.
Depression adds another complex layer to this dynamic. When our nervous system shifts into a dorsal state of collapse and withdrawal, we develop what I call "depression goggles"—a distorted lens that reinforces negative interpretations about ourselves and our relationships. This can make recognizing unhealthy patterns even more challenging since our negatively charged perspective can feel aligned with a relationship that feels emotionally painful, difficult or unsatisfying.
An unconscious belief, which can be particularly paralyzing, is that leaving a struggling partner makes you selfish or a "bad" person. I invite listeners to question these moral judgments: Where did you learn that your needs matter less than others'? Where did you internalize the idea that self-sacrifice equals love?
Understanding these unconscious factors doesn't necessarily mean ending your relationship—it means gaining clarity about what's really driving your choices. This awareness journey requires gentleness and often professional support, as our minds buried these patterns for a reason. Take just one step today toward greater consciousness, knowing that a more authentic relationship with yourself and others is possible, even when depression shares your bed.
- If you are looking to take the first step towards improving your connection and communication with your partner, check out this FREE monthly webinar on "Becoming a Conscious Couple,".
- If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat!
For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Speaker 1 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Are you interested in learningmore about the unconscious
factors that may be keeping youin your relationship?
Would you like to experiencehow shedding light on these
often hidden thoughts andfeelings can actually help you
begin to make a truly consciousdecision about whether or not
(00:22):
you want to stay in your currentrelationship?
I'm your host, trish Sanders.
Taking a journey into yourunconscious can sometimes be a
bumpy ride, but if you're readyto begin some self-exploration
and you'd like to join me, let'sget started.
Today's episode is acontinuation from last week's
(00:42):
episode, in which I started totalk through the seven question
framework that I developed inorder to help people make a
conscious decision about stayingin their relationship, and the
seven questions came directlyfrom my own experience and how I
process through that for myselfin my own relationship.
In the last episode, I talkedthrough my own thought process
(01:04):
about question one of the seven,which was what are the real or
perceived obstacles that come tomind when thinking about
leaving a relationship and waysto work through those obstacles.
I shared the thoughts that Ihave had over the years and how
I have worked through thosequestions myself when
considering the possibility ofbreaking up with my partner.
(01:24):
And today I'm going to move onto question two and I have a
feeling that I will probablyagain only be able to cover one
question and then maybe in thenext episode I'll be able to
talk through my thought processon perhaps the remaining five
questions.
But today is a big one and Iwant to go into not just my
thought process but a little bitmore about what the question
(01:44):
really is referring to.
So the second question is whatare the unconscious factors at
play that may be keeping you inyour relationship?
And, similar to question one,how can you get support on those
so that they aren't drivingyour decision and you can make a
clear, conscious decision aboutwhat you really want for your
(02:05):
relationship, rather thanperhaps staying in a
relationship either because ofthese unconscious factors being
at play or, in the case ofquestion one, because there's
things that feel like they'rethese insurmountable obstacles
in your way?
So first I just want to talk alittle bit more about what I
mean when I'm talking aboutunconscious factors.
So I'm an Imago relationshiptherapist and the Imago theory
(02:29):
about relationships is verylargely based on the unconscious
factors that influence ourchoice of romantic partner, and
so I'm going to touch on some ofthose key concepts now, and I
will definitely talk a lot moreabout this in future episodes as
well.
But essentially, the word imagoactually is the Latin word for
(02:50):
image, and what it refers to isthat we all carry with us a
picture, an image, of whatfamiliar love looks like to us,
and so that definition offamiliar love is created through
our early childhood experienceswith our early caregivers.
That could be mom and dad, butthere are many people and
(03:11):
experiences that can also impactthat, and so our unconscious
definition of familiar love iscreated by what we observe in
the relationships around us.
So if you think about therelationship that your parents
had with each other, or therelationships that we had with
each of our early caregivers andthe way that we experienced,
all of that becomes our imagoand becomes a driving force in
(03:34):
what we actually are attractedto in romantic partnership,
whether or not we're aware of it.
So the example I usually use tosort of explain this is the
idea that if you grew up with analcoholic parent, when you
become an adult, if you were towalk into a room filled with 100
people and 99 of those peoplehad no trouble with alcohol
(03:54):
themselves.
None of them were alcoholics,none of them had parents or
family members who arealcoholics.
But there was one person inthat room who either themself
was an active or recoveringalcoholic or was an adult child
of an alcoholic themselves,somehow unconsciously, if you
mingled through that room, youwould find yourself likely
(04:15):
attracted to and moving towardsthat one person who has this
similar picture of what familiarlove looks like.
This maybe in some ways isoversimplified, but I think it
really demonstrates the point.
In my own life and in my ownprofessional work, I have seen
this dynamic play out time andtime again, and so the reason
(04:36):
why we do this is not because wewant to just keep being
miserable and stuck in ourpainful childhood experiences,
but actually because we areseeking to recreate our
childhood experience so that inadulthood, in an equal
partnership, which is differentfrom a parent-child partnership,
there's a power differentialbetween a parent and a child,
whether we want there to be ornot, but in partnership as an
(04:57):
adult, we can come to theseemotional hardships and
conflicts and actually have achance to sort of almost have a
redo and heal and grow.
So that's the Imago theory in avery tiny nutshell and again I
will cover it more, but just fortoday's purposes to really
understand that we have a strongpicture of what relationships
(05:18):
are supposed to look like andfeel like, and that really
drives us into our current daypartnerships, you like, and that
really drives us into ourcurrent day partnerships.
And another thing about theunconscious is that the reason
things go into our unconsciousis because they were painful.
So when we're small childrenand we have these big painful
feelings, these big overwhelmedfeelings, these scary feelings,
even confusion, notunderstanding the unknown, those
(05:40):
can be very overwhelming andfrightening for a child and if
we don't have the support, if wedon't have someone to sit and
help us contain all these bigfeelings in our little bodies,
these feelings can just reallybecome too much for us.
So because they're painful, ourmind has this protective
ability to put everything inthis little box and try to lock
it up and throw it in the veryback corner of our mind and the
(06:03):
hope is that if we can'tremember it or we're not aware
of it, it won't bother usanymore, it can't hurt us
anymore.
Unfortunately, that's notexactly what really happens and
what actually happens is we loseawareness of certain things,
but they actually are stilldriving us and motivating us and
really steering the ship on alot of the decisions we make,
especially in romanticpartnership, but also across
(06:25):
many areas of our life.
So essentially, today, in yourcurrent relationship, you might
be in a position where yourconscious mind is saying, oh,
this relationship isn't reallywhat I want, it's not meeting my
needs.
We're fighting, I'm unhappy,but yet there's still something
that gets in your way and youdon't actually move towards
ending the relationship.
And so your conscious mind saysone thing, but your unconscious
(06:49):
mind is really making thedecision for you to stay in the
relationship because somethingabout it feels familiar.
So your conscious mind says I'mnot happy, but your unconscious
mind says this feels familiar,so it feels like home and I want
to stay here.
When we first meet somebody, weare driven by that unconscious
and we move towards them becausewe feel this familiarity with
(07:13):
them and we feel connected towhatever that familiar
unconscious thing is in each ofus, our own imago that we're
carrying.
We're like, oh, I know whatthis is, I know what this feels
like, this feels familiar, Ilike it, let me move towards it.
But then we end up having arelationship with this person
and all of this unconsciousstuff comes out, all of this old
conflict comes out that we'refamiliar with and we go oh, this
(07:35):
doesn't actually feel so verygood.
I don't really like this.
So there's some confusion aboutwhat is familiar and may
initially attract us torelationship and what actually
is that satisfying, meaningfulconnection, that good feeling,
safe connection that we reallyare longing for.
So this is a big part of theImago theory and it definitely
does not mean that we have toend our relationship.
(07:55):
If this dynamic is present itis very often present what it
really means is that it shines alight on where the relational
work actually needs to happen.
So that's what we work with inImago therapy.
More on Imago in futureepisodes.
So I myself have been in therapyon and off since I was about 10
years old, so a lot of this hasbecome more conscious for me
(08:18):
over the years, and also as anImago relationship therapist
through my training experience,which I've had hundreds of hours
of.
It's all experiential and sousing the Imago process and the
theory to actually look at yourown relational experiences.
So I've deeply explored my ownunconscious and even still our
brain is trying to protect us,so it's hard to get to
(08:40):
unconscious stuff.
So I myself have really done alot of work on becoming much
more familiar with myunconscious and I will continue
to do that work.
And so, even though I feelpretty well acquainted at this
point, realistically I maydiscover new things as I
continue to become a more andmore conscious person.
But I do want to say that ifyou are at a place starting out
(09:00):
on your journey of exploringyour unconscious, please keep in
mind that it can be a toughthing to explore because our
mind was protecting us fromthose really painful feelings
and so it's not necessarily easyto access our unconscious
thoughts and feelings andexperiences, and you may need
the support of a therapist orsomething like that.
And I also want to say, as Imove into talking about my own
(09:21):
unconscious thoughts, which Ihave gained awareness of and so
I have brought them into myconscious awareness, I tend to
talk about some of these veryheavy things rather lightly
because, even though they'renegative and quite painful, I've
talked about them a lot over mylife and they have definitely
shifted from being core messagesthat I absolutely believe to
(09:42):
becoming something that I knowis inaccurate.
And I say that because I havegotten feedback over the years
like whoa, like you're talkingabout some heavy stuff, like I
talk about hating yourself orfeeling unlovable because I've
talked about these things quitea bit over my lifetime they just
don't have the same pull on me.
They don't have the same pullon me.
They don't have the samecontrol over me.
I don't feel as aligned withthem as I used to and I've
(10:04):
developed much more conscious,accurate, aligned beliefs about
myself and the world and therelationship and what I deserve
and who I am.
So just to say, as you'restarting to explore this for
yourself, they may feel reallyheavy and painful and it may not
feel so easy to talk about them.
That is definitely generallythe experience for people.
So I don't want to give up thewrong impression that it's so
(10:25):
super easy to talk about thesedeep, dark, painful things that
your mind has been protectingyou from for probably very many
years.
It's a tough process and Idefinitely recommend that you
get some support as you're goingthrough it.
So, for myself, I have, forreally as long as I can remember
, carried a core belief that Iam undeserving of happiness, and
(10:46):
underneath that core beliefit's connected to more beliefs
that I am undeserving ofhappiness because I am not good
enough and I am defective andthere is something essentially
wrong with me that I'm notlovable enough.
And so those have been reallyguiding factors in all of my
relationships.
And in truth, the relationshipsI had before I met my now
(11:09):
husband, ben, were not very goodrelationships at all, because I
was not attracted to people whohad really good communication
skills or relational tools orhealthy coping mechanisms,
because that was not what myimago was, that was not what was
familiar to me.
And so the people that I datedbefore Ben, they were lovely
people.
There was a reason why I likethem, or there were reasons that
(11:31):
were positive about why I wasdrawn to them.
But once I was in therelationships for a relatively
short period of time, therelationships were really really
quite, quite difficult, and sowhen I met ben, we had this
quite immediate, safe, deep,loving connection that felt
absolutely wonderful, and so,even though that did in fact
fall apart when the powerstruggle hit, we were able to
(11:51):
come back there, even though itwas usually for relatively brief
periods of time.
But I really felt like, hey,maybe this is the best I'm going
to get right.
Like my past relationships werenot fantastic by any stretch.
So maybe this is therelationship that I deserve.
Maybe I'm not worthy of morethan this.
And the thing about unconsciousthoughts is, even when they
(12:13):
were conscious, so even when Iwas aware of them like oh, I'm
aware that I'm thinking thatmaybe I am not worthy of a
relationship that feels betterthan this they were still so
deeply rooted at that point forme that they were still guiding
my decisions, even if I couldrationally look at that thought
and say that's probably not true.
You know, I believe that allpeople are worthy, like I
(12:34):
actually believe that everysingle person on this planet is
inherently worthy, and so itdidn't really make sense that my
thought process was well, everysingle person on the planet is
worthy and deserving of love,except for me.
Rationally, I understood thatthat didn't make sense, but yet
these thoughts were deeplyconnected for me and they were
(12:54):
very real.
The other piece that I havereally expanded my awareness of
by developing a deeperunderstanding of the nervous
system, is that another way mynervous system and brain
protected me, in addition tosending things into my
unconscious mind, was by havingmy nervous system go into that
dorsal state, which is thatcollapsed, withdrawn depressed
(13:16):
state.
So when feelings gotoverwhelming, my nervous system
would go into that dorsal state.
I would be in a state ofdepression.
And when you're in a state ofdepression, what I've referred
to in earlier episodes aboutdepression goggles the
interpretations that we makeabout the world, our
relationships, ourselves, areconnected to the state of your
nervous system.
So when I'm depressed, when mynervous system is in dorsal,
(13:36):
when I'm wearing depressiongoggles, I see the world and
myself and my relationships inreally negative terms.
So I of course would see myselfas unworthy and unlovable and
undeserving and hopeless inrelationship, and relationships
themselves were painful andprobably never going to be very
satisfying.
I definitely didn't feel anyoptimism about going into the
(13:57):
larger world to find somethingbetter, right, I just didn't
even think that existed.
And so all of this reallyworked together for me.
And again I had a pretty highlevel of awareness a lot of the
time about what was happeningfor me.
And still it was driving me andit took me a long time to
(14:18):
really work through it.
And for me making a consciousdecision was sometimes like okay
, well, I know thatintellectually this isn't true.
So I would ask myself questionslike well, is this a
relationship I'd want my sisterto stay in.
This was actually a strategythat I used ever since I was a
teenager, when I was in therapy.
My therapist back thensuggested it for me because I
would make different decisionsif I thought about myself doing
(14:39):
something or my sister doingsomething like, oh for me it's
fine, this is a good decision,but oh, my sister, no, I would
never want her to go throughthat.
And so it changed myperspective.
Eventually I could think about,oh, what if my son was in a
relationship like this, or mydaughter, and that really would
shift how I thought about things.
And so I tried to just reallybe as conscious as I could about
(15:00):
what was driving me, perhaps tostay in a relationship.
That was painful and for me.
I kind of worked through thattime and time again and was like
okay, even with all of this, Istill want to be in this
relationship, it still makessense, we're still doing the
work together, and so that'skind of where I came to a lot of
the time.
Other thoughts that came up as Icontinued to expand my
(15:21):
awareness really had to do withthe idea of, if I ended my
relationship, that I would feellike I was a failure.
I had these beliefs that likeI'm not good at relationships or
I can't have good relationshipswhich, of course, is very
connected to all of the otherunconscious thoughts that I
talked about earlier, and Iwould work through those and I
tried to make some shifts aroundthose thoughts to healthier
(15:41):
thoughts and even more thanhealthier, I think, more
accurate thoughts like, insteadof thinking that I don't deserve
something or I'm a failure orI'm not good at relationships,
moving towards something like Iactually believe that everyone
is deserving of happiness andrelationships are hard and
sometimes relationships do endand that does not mean that I
(16:04):
myself am a failure or defective, which is something that I
think a lot of people canstruggle with, and it can be
really hard to pull that allapart and look at those things.
And again, I am not activelytrying to decide if I want to
leave my relationship.
I have not actively been tryingto decide that for years, but
for I don't know the first 17years of my relationship, I have
not actively been trying todecide that for years, but for I
don't know the first 17 yearsof my relationship, I have
(16:26):
actually considered breaking upand divorce many times and I
always paid a lot of attentionto these unconscious factors
because, like I said, I've beenin therapy, I've been in
trainings as a relationshiptherapist for so long that these
are the kinds of things that Ispend a lot of time thinking
about.
And I think the last piece thatI became very, very conscious of
(16:47):
that was very difficult and Idefinitely had to work through
and get support on, was thethought of not only just am I a
failure for ending arelationship, but am I a bad
person for ending therelationship or leaving the
relationship, and that I thinkanybody maybe could have that
thought, depending on theirrelationship.
But especially when you're in arelationship with somebody
who's living with depression, Ithink that that thought can come
(17:08):
up fairly easily because it'slike, well, if I know my
partner's depressed, it's nottheir fault, right, they're not
depressed on purpose, they don'twant to be depressed.
So if I leave the relationship,am I being selfish?
Am I being unsupportive?
Am I a bad person?
And Much like I've touched onin the last few episodes, it can
sound harsh, but we only getone life right.
(17:30):
We have to live that one lifethat we get with some awareness
of our own needs, with someprioritization of our own needs,
with some level of puttingourself first some of the time,
you know, I mean, I think thatin relationship you do have to
make a decision, especially as aparent.
You have to make a decisionlike well, what are the needs of
everyone in this situation andwhose needs matter the most
(17:51):
right now?
And if every single time youask yourself that question
you're like, oh, my needs matterthe most always, then maybe
there's something to think aboutmore there.
But when you're in arelationship with someone who's
depressed if they're not doingtheir work which, believe me, I
(18:12):
know can be very hard, becausenot only have I watched my
husband try for the last 20years to do his work and seen
his struggle with it, but Imyself, I told you, I've been in
therapy since I was 10 yearsold.
I've had a whole lifetime oftrying to do my work and
although I absolutely have madechanges and shifts and I've
grown and I've healed and I'vecome so very far over all of
these years it's really onlybeen the last, I would say five
years I've made the progressthat I really have been longing
(18:34):
to make, or I've really takensome steps in the direction that
I feel like, oh, I'm in a newplace, like I'm not kind of
stuck in so much of the same oldstruggle.
As I said in my first episode,struggle is so.
Last year, like that justhappened, I had that thought
only last year, right?
So that was just a year or twoago that I was like you know
what I'm really done with beingmiserable so often.
(18:55):
So doing work when you'redepressed and you go to your
self-protective place in yournervous system is that dorsal
shutdown.
It's really hard to dorelationship work, it's really
hard to do self work.
And so when you're in arelationship with that kind of
person, it can feelheartbreaking to say, oh my gosh
, they're this wonderful, greatperson, and if they just could
(19:16):
take care of themselves, if theyjust could do their own therapy
or their own healing orwhatever, then I'd love to be in
a relationship with this person.
And you can start to judgeRemember, should is a sneaky
little judgment word.
Oh, I should stay with them IfI really love them.
Doesn't that mean that I wouldstay in this relationship?
And sometimes that can be anunconscious thought, and
sometimes that can move into ourconscious, for sure.
(19:36):
But to really ask yourself somedeeper questions about where
that thought came from.
What are the unconsciousthoughts underneath that?
Where did you learn it was yourresponsibility to take care of
everybody else?
Where did you learn that yourneeds weren't as important as
everyone else's?
Where did you learn that therewas a value on self-sacrifice,
(19:59):
right?
What did your parents'relationship look like?
Did you witness one of yourparents sacrificing their needs
for your other parent or forsomebody else in their life?
Again, this gets into some deepstuff and so I talk about it and
I wanted to spend today's wholeepisode talking about it, but
it's heavy.
It's important, but I dorecommend traveling with a
friend or a therapist or ahealer or a wellness
(20:22):
practitioner or somebody who youtrust when you go on this
journey, because these are deepquestions and again, our mind
hid this stuff from us.
It's in our unconscious becauseit was so painful.
So, as we start to sort throughit, being able to access this
stuff to a certain point andthen being able to put it back
for now, take care of ourselves,self-regulate, get back to a
(20:42):
feeling of safety and connectionand regulation that's a skill,
I mean.
I would say that that's one ofthe main skills of therapy,
really, and so do be gentle asyou go through this process.
And again, I've been talkingabout this stuff for over 30
years in my own life and maybeyou've been talking about it for
years already.
Maybe you yourself have been intherapy for a while.
But even when you've beentalking about this stuff,
(21:04):
there's new things, there'spainful things.
So I invite you to hold all ofthis and hold yourself with as
much love and compassion andcare as you possibly can, and to
know that it is not helpful topush and dig and kind of like
blood, sweat and tears your waythrough this like this is not
(21:25):
something where there's abenefit in trying to put in that
much effort.
Like this is like a muchgentler process and you'll
actually get further by having agentle, kind hand and heart
holding all of this.
So I will talk more about theremaining questions in my
framework next time and I'llcontinue to talk you through my
own thought process, how I havecontinued to make a decision to
(21:45):
stay in my relationship time andtime again, even when my
relationship was really, reallyhard.
And just as a reminder, thisdoes not mean that I think you
should.
I'm not judging anybody at all.
This does not mean that I thinkthat you should stay in your
relationship.
This is me hoping that thesequestions and these thoughts
help you make a truly consciousdecision about who you
(22:07):
authentically are, what kind ofrelationship you really want to
have, and I hope that you findyourself in relationships
including the relationship youhave with yourself that meet
your needs and feel good,connected and safe much more of
the time than not.
I look forward to talking morenext week.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
(22:27):
just a few more moments, becauseI want to thank you for showing
up today and I want to leaveyou with an invitation.
As you hit stop and move backout into the world on your own
unique wellness journey.
In order to move from where youare today to the place where
you want to be, the path mayseem long or unclear or unknown.
The path may seem long orunclear or unknown, and I want
(22:47):
you to know that if that seemsscary or daunting or downright
terrifying or anything else,that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at once
.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride, and that is why
my invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
(23:11):
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step youvisualize taking in your mind.
It can be a step towards action, or towards rest, or connection
, or self-care, or whatever stepmakes sense to you.
Care, or whatever step makessense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday, because getting to a
place that feels better, morejoyful, more connected than the
(23:33):
place where you are today ispossible for everyone, including
you, and even when depressionis in your bed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media at trishsanderslcsw.
(23:54):
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes and I love
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may
be interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
a step.
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Are you interested in learningmore about the unconscious
factors that may be keeping youin your relationship?
Would you like to experiencehow shedding light on these
often hidden thoughts andfeelings can actually help you
begin to make a truly consciousdecision about whether or not
(00:22):
you want to stay in your currentrelationship?
I'm your host, trish Sanders.
Taking a journey into yourunconscious can sometimes be a
bumpy ride, but if you're readyto begin some self-exploration
and you'd like to join me, let'sget started.
Today's episode is acontinuation from last week's
(00:42):
episode, in which I started totalk through the seven question
framework that I developed inorder to help people make a
conscious decision about stayingin their relationship, and the
seven questions came directlyfrom my own experience and how I
process through that for myselfin my own relationship.
In the last episode, I talkedthrough my own thought process
(01:04):
about question one of the seven,which was what are the real or
perceived obstacles that come tomind when thinking about
leaving a relationship and waysto work through those obstacles.
I shared the thoughts that Ihave had over the years and how
I have worked through thosequestions myself when
considering the possibility ofbreaking up with my partner.
(01:24):
And today I'm going to move onto question two and I have a
feeling that I will probablyagain only be able to cover one
question and then maybe in thenext episode I'll be able to
talk through my thought processon perhaps the remaining five
questions.
But today is a big one and Iwant to go into not just my
thought process but a little bitmore about what the question
(01:44):
really is referring to.
So the second question is whatare the unconscious factors at
play that may be keeping you inyour relationship?
And, similar to question one,how can you get support on those
so that they aren't drivingyour decision and you can make a
clear, conscious decision aboutwhat you really want for your
(02:05):
relationship, rather thanperhaps staying in a
relationship either because ofthese unconscious factors being
at play or, in the case ofquestion one, because there's
things that feel like they'rethese insurmountable obstacles
in your way?
So first I just want to talk alittle bit more about what I
mean when I'm talking aboutunconscious factors.
So I'm an Imago relationshiptherapist and the Imago theory
(02:29):
about relationships is verylargely based on the unconscious
factors that influence ourchoice of romantic partner, and
so I'm going to touch on some ofthose key concepts now, and I
will definitely talk a lot moreabout this in future episodes as
well.
But essentially, the word imagoactually is the Latin word for
(02:50):
image, and what it refers to isthat we all carry with us a
picture, an image, of whatfamiliar love looks like to us,
and so that definition offamiliar love is created through
our early childhood experienceswith our early caregivers.
That could be mom and dad, butthere are many people and
(03:11):
experiences that can also impactthat, and so our unconscious
definition of familiar love iscreated by what we observe in
the relationships around us.
So if you think about therelationship that your parents
had with each other, or therelationships that we had with
each of our early caregivers andthe way that we experienced,
all of that becomes our imagoand becomes a driving force in
(03:34):
what we actually are attractedto in romantic partnership,
whether or not we're aware of it.
So the example I usually use tosort of explain this is the
idea that if you grew up with analcoholic parent, when you
become an adult, if you were towalk into a room filled with 100
people and 99 of those peoplehad no trouble with alcohol
(03:54):
themselves.
None of them were alcoholics,none of them had parents or
family members who arealcoholics.
But there was one person inthat room who either themself
was an active or recoveringalcoholic or was an adult child
of an alcoholic themselves,somehow unconsciously, if you
mingled through that room, youwould find yourself likely
(04:15):
attracted to and moving towardsthat one person who has this
similar picture of what familiarlove looks like.
This maybe in some ways isoversimplified, but I think it
really demonstrates the point.
In my own life and in my ownprofessional work, I have seen
this dynamic play out time andtime again, and so the reason
(04:36):
why we do this is not because wewant to just keep being
miserable and stuck in ourpainful childhood experiences,
but actually because we areseeking to recreate our
childhood experience so that inadulthood, in an equal
partnership, which is differentfrom a parent-child partnership,
there's a power differentialbetween a parent and a child,
whether we want there to be ornot, but in partnership as an
(04:57):
adult, we can come to theseemotional hardships and
conflicts and actually have achance to sort of almost have a
redo and heal and grow.
So that's the Imago theory in avery tiny nutshell and again I
will cover it more, but just fortoday's purposes to really
understand that we have a strongpicture of what relationships
(05:18):
are supposed to look like andfeel like, and that really
drives us into our current daypartnerships, you like, and that
really drives us into ourcurrent day partnerships.
And another thing about theunconscious is that the reason
things go into our unconsciousis because they were painful.
So when we're small childrenand we have these big painful
feelings, these big overwhelmedfeelings, these scary feelings,
even confusion, notunderstanding the unknown, those
(05:40):
can be very overwhelming andfrightening for a child and if
we don't have the support, if wedon't have someone to sit and
help us contain all these bigfeelings in our little bodies,
these feelings can just reallybecome too much for us.
So because they're painful, ourmind has this protective
ability to put everything inthis little box and try to lock
it up and throw it in the veryback corner of our mind and the
(06:03):
hope is that if we can'tremember it or we're not aware
of it, it won't bother usanymore, it can't hurt us
anymore.
Unfortunately, that's notexactly what really happens and
what actually happens is we loseawareness of certain things,
but they actually are stilldriving us and motivating us and
really steering the ship on alot of the decisions we make,
especially in romanticpartnership, but also across
(06:25):
many areas of our life.
So essentially, today, in yourcurrent relationship, you might
be in a position where yourconscious mind is saying, oh,
this relationship isn't reallywhat I want, it's not meeting my
needs.
We're fighting, I'm unhappy,but yet there's still something
that gets in your way and youdon't actually move towards
ending the relationship.
And so your conscious mind saysone thing, but your unconscious
(06:49):
mind is really making thedecision for you to stay in the
relationship because somethingabout it feels familiar.
So your conscious mind says I'mnot happy, but your unconscious
mind says this feels familiar,so it feels like home and I want
to stay here.
When we first meet somebody, weare driven by that unconscious
and we move towards them becausewe feel this familiarity with
(07:13):
them and we feel connected towhatever that familiar
unconscious thing is in each ofus, our own imago that we're
carrying.
We're like, oh, I know whatthis is, I know what this feels
like, this feels familiar, Ilike it, let me move towards it.
But then we end up having arelationship with this person
and all of this unconsciousstuff comes out, all of this old
conflict comes out that we'refamiliar with and we go oh, this
(07:35):
doesn't actually feel so verygood.
I don't really like this.
So there's some confusion aboutwhat is familiar and may
initially attract us torelationship and what actually
is that satisfying, meaningfulconnection, that good feeling,
safe connection that we reallyare longing for.
So this is a big part of theImago theory and it definitely
does not mean that we have toend our relationship.
(07:55):
If this dynamic is present itis very often present what it
really means is that it shines alight on where the relational
work actually needs to happen.
So that's what we work with inImago therapy.
More on Imago in futureepisodes.
So I myself have been in therapyon and off since I was about 10
years old, so a lot of this hasbecome more conscious for me
(08:18):
over the years, and also as anImago relationship therapist
through my training experience,which I've had hundreds of hours
of.
It's all experiential and sousing the Imago process and the
theory to actually look at yourown relational experiences.
So I've deeply explored my ownunconscious and even still our
brain is trying to protect us,so it's hard to get to
(08:40):
unconscious stuff.
So I myself have really done alot of work on becoming much
more familiar with myunconscious and I will continue
to do that work.
And so, even though I feelpretty well acquainted at this
point, realistically I maydiscover new things as I
continue to become a more andmore conscious person.
But I do want to say that ifyou are at a place starting out
(09:00):
on your journey of exploringyour unconscious, please keep in
mind that it can be a toughthing to explore because our
mind was protecting us fromthose really painful feelings
and so it's not necessarily easyto access our unconscious
thoughts and feelings andexperiences, and you may need
the support of a therapist orsomething like that.
And I also want to say, as Imove into talking about my own
(09:21):
unconscious thoughts, which Ihave gained awareness of and so
I have brought them into myconscious awareness, I tend to
talk about some of these veryheavy things rather lightly
because, even though they'renegative and quite painful, I've
talked about them a lot over mylife and they have definitely
shifted from being core messagesthat I absolutely believe to
(09:42):
becoming something that I knowis inaccurate.
And I say that because I havegotten feedback over the years
like whoa, like you're talkingabout some heavy stuff, like I
talk about hating yourself orfeeling unlovable because I've
talked about these things quitea bit over my lifetime they just
don't have the same pull on me.
They don't have the same pullon me.
They don't have the samecontrol over me.
I don't feel as aligned withthem as I used to and I've
(10:04):
developed much more conscious,accurate, aligned beliefs about
myself and the world and therelationship and what I deserve
and who I am.
So just to say, as you'restarting to explore this for
yourself, they may feel reallyheavy and painful and it may not
feel so easy to talk about them.
That is definitely generallythe experience for people.
So I don't want to give up thewrong impression that it's so
(10:25):
super easy to talk about thesedeep, dark, painful things that
your mind has been protectingyou from for probably very many
years.
It's a tough process and Idefinitely recommend that you
get some support as you're goingthrough it.
So, for myself, I have, forreally as long as I can remember
, carried a core belief that Iam undeserving of happiness, and
(10:46):
underneath that core beliefit's connected to more beliefs
that I am undeserving ofhappiness because I am not good
enough and I am defective andthere is something essentially
wrong with me that I'm notlovable enough.
And so those have been reallyguiding factors in all of my
relationships.
And in truth, the relationshipsI had before I met my now
(11:09):
husband, ben, were not very goodrelationships at all, because I
was not attracted to people whohad really good communication
skills or relational tools orhealthy coping mechanisms,
because that was not what myimago was, that was not what was
familiar to me.
And so the people that I datedbefore Ben, they were lovely
people.
There was a reason why I likethem, or there were reasons that
(11:31):
were positive about why I wasdrawn to them.
But once I was in therelationships for a relatively
short period of time, therelationships were really really
quite, quite difficult, and sowhen I met ben, we had this
quite immediate, safe, deep,loving connection that felt
absolutely wonderful, and so,even though that did in fact
fall apart when the powerstruggle hit, we were able to
(11:51):
come back there, even though itwas usually for relatively brief
periods of time.
But I really felt like, hey,maybe this is the best I'm going
to get right.
Like my past relationships werenot fantastic by any stretch.
So maybe this is therelationship that I deserve.
Maybe I'm not worthy of morethan this.
And the thing about unconsciousthoughts is, even when they
(12:13):
were conscious, so even when Iwas aware of them like oh, I'm
aware that I'm thinking thatmaybe I am not worthy of a
relationship that feels betterthan this they were still so
deeply rooted at that point forme that they were still guiding
my decisions, even if I couldrationally look at that thought
and say that's probably not true.
You know, I believe that allpeople are worthy, like I
(12:34):
actually believe that everysingle person on this planet is
inherently worthy, and so itdidn't really make sense that my
thought process was well, everysingle person on the planet is
worthy and deserving of love,except for me.
Rationally, I understood thatthat didn't make sense, but yet
these thoughts were deeplyconnected for me and they were
(12:54):
very real.
The other piece that I havereally expanded my awareness of
by developing a deeperunderstanding of the nervous
system, is that another way mynervous system and brain
protected me, in addition tosending things into my
unconscious mind, was by havingmy nervous system go into that
dorsal state, which is thatcollapsed, withdrawn depressed
(13:16):
state.
So when feelings gotoverwhelming, my nervous system
would go into that dorsal state.
I would be in a state ofdepression.
And when you're in a state ofdepression, what I've referred
to in earlier episodes aboutdepression goggles the
interpretations that we makeabout the world, our
relationships, ourselves, areconnected to the state of your
nervous system.
So when I'm depressed, when mynervous system is in dorsal,
(13:36):
when I'm wearing depressiongoggles, I see the world and
myself and my relationships inreally negative terms.
So I of course would see myselfas unworthy and unlovable and
undeserving and hopeless inrelationship, and relationships
themselves were painful andprobably never going to be very
satisfying.
I definitely didn't feel anyoptimism about going into the
(13:57):
larger world to find somethingbetter, right, I just didn't
even think that existed.
And so all of this reallyworked together for me.
And again I had a pretty highlevel of awareness a lot of the
time about what was happeningfor me.
And still it was driving me andit took me a long time to
(14:18):
really work through it.
And for me making a consciousdecision was sometimes like okay
, well, I know thatintellectually this isn't true.
So I would ask myself questionslike well, is this a
relationship I'd want my sisterto stay in.
This was actually a strategythat I used ever since I was a
teenager, when I was in therapy.
My therapist back thensuggested it for me because I
would make different decisionsif I thought about myself doing
(14:39):
something or my sister doingsomething like, oh for me it's
fine, this is a good decision,but oh, my sister, no, I would
never want her to go throughthat.
And so it changed myperspective.
Eventually I could think about,oh, what if my son was in a
relationship like this, or mydaughter, and that really would
shift how I thought about things.
And so I tried to just reallybe as conscious as I could about
(15:00):
what was driving me, perhaps tostay in a relationship.
That was painful and for me.
I kind of worked through thattime and time again and was like
okay, even with all of this, Istill want to be in this
relationship, it still makessense, we're still doing the
work together, and so that'skind of where I came to a lot of
the time.
Other thoughts that came up as Icontinued to expand my
(15:21):
awareness really had to do withthe idea of, if I ended my
relationship, that I would feellike I was a failure.
I had these beliefs that likeI'm not good at relationships or
I can't have good relationshipswhich, of course, is very
connected to all of the otherunconscious thoughts that I
talked about earlier, and Iwould work through those and I
tried to make some shifts aroundthose thoughts to healthier
(15:41):
thoughts and even more thanhealthier, I think, more
accurate thoughts like, insteadof thinking that I don't deserve
something or I'm a failure orI'm not good at relationships,
moving towards something like Iactually believe that everyone
is deserving of happiness andrelationships are hard and
sometimes relationships do endand that does not mean that I
(16:04):
myself am a failure or defective, which is something that I
think a lot of people canstruggle with, and it can be
really hard to pull that allapart and look at those things.
And again, I am not activelytrying to decide if I want to
leave my relationship.
I have not actively been tryingto decide that for years, but
for I don't know the first 17years of my relationship, I have
not actively been trying todecide that for years, but for I
don't know the first 17 yearsof my relationship, I have
(16:26):
actually considered breaking upand divorce many times and I
always paid a lot of attentionto these unconscious factors
because, like I said, I've beenin therapy, I've been in
trainings as a relationshiptherapist for so long that these
are the kinds of things that Ispend a lot of time thinking
about.
And I think the last piece thatI became very, very conscious of
(16:47):
that was very difficult and Idefinitely had to work through
and get support on, was thethought of not only just am I a
failure for ending arelationship, but am I a bad
person for ending therelationship or leaving the
relationship, and that I thinkanybody maybe could have that
thought, depending on theirrelationship.
But especially when you're in arelationship with somebody
who's living with depression, Ithink that that thought can come
(17:08):
up fairly easily because it'slike, well, if I know my
partner's depressed, it's nottheir fault, right, they're not
depressed on purpose, they don'twant to be depressed.
So if I leave the relationship,am I being selfish?
Am I being unsupportive?
Am I a bad person?
And Much like I've touched onin the last few episodes, it can
sound harsh, but we only getone life right.
(17:30):
We have to live that one lifethat we get with some awareness
of our own needs, with someprioritization of our own needs,
with some level of puttingourself first some of the time,
you know, I mean, I think thatin relationship you do have to
make a decision, especially as aparent.
You have to make a decisionlike well, what are the needs of
everyone in this situation andwhose needs matter the most
(17:51):
right now?
And if every single time youask yourself that question
you're like, oh, my needs matterthe most always, then maybe
there's something to think aboutmore there.
But when you're in arelationship with someone who's
depressed if they're not doingtheir work which, believe me, I
(18:12):
know can be very hard, becausenot only have I watched my
husband try for the last 20years to do his work and seen
his struggle with it, but Imyself, I told you, I've been in
therapy since I was 10 yearsold.
I've had a whole lifetime oftrying to do my work and
although I absolutely have madechanges and shifts and I've
grown and I've healed and I'vecome so very far over all of
these years it's really onlybeen the last, I would say five
years I've made the progressthat I really have been longing
(18:34):
to make, or I've really takensome steps in the direction that
I feel like, oh, I'm in a newplace, like I'm not kind of
stuck in so much of the same oldstruggle.
As I said in my first episode,struggle is so.
Last year, like that justhappened, I had that thought
only last year, right?
So that was just a year or twoago that I was like you know
what I'm really done with beingmiserable so often.
(18:55):
So doing work when you'redepressed and you go to your
self-protective place in yournervous system is that dorsal
shutdown.
It's really hard to dorelationship work, it's really
hard to do self work.
And so when you're in arelationship with that kind of
person, it can feelheartbreaking to say, oh my gosh
, they're this wonderful, greatperson, and if they just could
(19:16):
take care of themselves, if theyjust could do their own therapy
or their own healing orwhatever, then I'd love to be in
a relationship with this person.
And you can start to judgeRemember, should is a sneaky
little judgment word.
Oh, I should stay with them IfI really love them.
Doesn't that mean that I wouldstay in this relationship?
And sometimes that can be anunconscious thought, and
sometimes that can move into ourconscious, for sure.
(19:36):
But to really ask yourself somedeeper questions about where
that thought came from.
What are the unconsciousthoughts underneath that?
Where did you learn it was yourresponsibility to take care of
everybody else?
Where did you learn that yourneeds weren't as important as
everyone else's?
Where did you learn that therewas a value on self-sacrifice,
(19:59):
right?
What did your parents'relationship look like?
Did you witness one of yourparents sacrificing their needs
for your other parent or forsomebody else in their life?
Again, this gets into some deepstuff and so I talk about it and
I wanted to spend today's wholeepisode talking about it, but
it's heavy.
It's important, but I dorecommend traveling with a
friend or a therapist or ahealer or a wellness
(20:22):
practitioner or somebody who youtrust when you go on this
journey, because these are deepquestions and again, our mind
hid this stuff from us.
It's in our unconscious becauseit was so painful.
So, as we start to sort throughit, being able to access this
stuff to a certain point andthen being able to put it back
for now, take care of ourselves,self-regulate, get back to a
(20:42):
feeling of safety and connectionand regulation that's a skill,
I mean.
I would say that that's one ofthe main skills of therapy,
really, and so do be gentle asyou go through this process.
And again, I've been talkingabout this stuff for over 30
years in my own life and maybeyou've been talking about it for
years already.
Maybe you yourself have been intherapy for a while.
But even when you've beentalking about this stuff,
(21:04):
there's new things, there'spainful things.
So I invite you to hold all ofthis and hold yourself with as
much love and compassion andcare as you possibly can, and to
know that it is not helpful topush and dig and kind of like
blood, sweat and tears your waythrough this like this is not
(21:25):
something where there's abenefit in trying to put in that
much effort.
Like this is like a muchgentler process and you'll
actually get further by having agentle, kind hand and heart
holding all of this.
So I will talk more about theremaining questions in my
framework next time and I'llcontinue to talk you through my
own thought process, how I havecontinued to make a decision to
(21:45):
stay in my relationship time andtime again, even when my
relationship was really, reallyhard.
And just as a reminder, thisdoes not mean that I think you
should.
I'm not judging anybody at all.
This does not mean that I thinkthat you should stay in your
relationship.
This is me hoping that thesequestions and these thoughts
help you make a truly consciousdecision about who you
(22:07):
authentically are, what kind ofrelationship you really want to
have, and I hope that you findyourself in relationships
including the relationship youhave with yourself that meet
your needs and feel good,connected and safe much more of
the time than not.
I look forward to talking morenext week.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
(22:27):
just a few more moments, becauseI want to thank you for showing
up today and I want to leaveyou with an invitation.
As you hit stop and move backout into the world on your own
unique wellness journey.
In order to move from where youare today to the place where
you want to be, the path mayseem long or unclear or unknown.
The path may seem long orunclear or unknown, and I want
(22:47):
you to know that if that seemsscary or daunting or downright
terrifying or anything else,that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at once
.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride, and that is why
my invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
(23:11):
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step youvisualize taking in your mind.
It can be a step towards action, or towards rest, or connection
, or self-care, or whatever stepmakes sense to you.
Care, or whatever step makessense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday, because getting to a
place that feels better, morejoyful, more connected than the
(23:33):
place where you are today ispossible for everyone, including
you, and even when depressionis in your bed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media at trishsanderslcsw.
(23:54):
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes and I love
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may
be interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
a step.
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