November 12, 2025 • 33 mins
What if real rest isn’t zoning out, but learning to feel safely still in your own body? Trish takes you inside her year-long journey with ketamine-assisted psychotherapy, sharing what KAP actually looks like—from medical screening and at-home setup to music-guided sessions, dosing with lozenges, and why a simple request for lip balm became a breakthrough in receiving care.
We walk step by step through the first session nerves, blood pressure protocols, eye mask and playlist prep, and the gentle inner experience that led to two anchoring insights: "the most beautiful place in the world is inside of me" and "I can breathe here". You’ll hear how integration sessions transformed fleeting moments into durable change, pairing neuroplastic windows with practical rituals so self-compassion moved from concept to felt sense. Along the way, Trish unpacks the difference between therapeutic and recreational use, clarifies common misconceptions about ketamine, and frames the work through a polyvagal lens—contrasting shutdown with true slowdown and naming the blended state of safety and stillness that makes rest restorative.
This is an honest, grounded account designed for the KAP-curious, the clinically minded, and anyone navigating depression who wonders whether healing can stick. We talk best practices, chaperones, virtual care, dosing methods, and the very real variability in risk across different ketamine models. Most of all, we focus on what lasts: trust, integration, and nervous system learning that helps you choose rest without shame and return to center more easily.
If this resonated, subscribe for weekly releases, share it with someone who might need hope today, and leave a review to help others find the show. What question about KAP would you like us to explore next?
If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat!
For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.
Mark as Played
Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:01):
Hello, and welcome to the When Depression is in
your bed podcast.
Kenamine Assisted Psychotherapy,or CAP, has been coming up more
and more in conversations abouthealing and mental health.
For some, it sparks curiosity.
For others, hesitation,questions, or even concern.
No matter where you stand, ifyou've ever wondered what it was
actually like, this episode isfor you.
(00:22):
I'll be sharing my first handexperience with CAP, how it
became a doorway into nervoussystem healing, and how it
taught me what it truly means torest in a way that I wasn't sure
was possible.
At least not for me.
I'm your host, Trish Sanders,and I am delighted that you are
here.
Let's get started.
Before we dive in, I do want tojust give a quick heads up about
(00:43):
what I'm sharing today.
I am a licensed clinical socialworker and I will be talking
about ketamine-assistedpsychotherapy.
I will be sharing my ownpersonal experience and what
I've learned professionally, buteverything that I share is for
educational purposes only.
I am not giving medical advice,making any treatment
recommendations, or suggestingthat anyone try ketamine.
(01:03):
And I certainly can't guaranteethat the effects that I
experienced will be the same orcould be guaranteed for anyone
else who might be trying to usethe same or similar treatment.
If you're thinking aboutketamine-assisted psychotherapy,
please check in with a licensedhealthcare provider who can
guide you safely and addressyour unique situation,
questions, and concerns.
In the next episode, I am goingto be sharing more information
(01:26):
about the history of ketamine,why it has seemed to just jump
on the scene with suchpopularity these days, and what
has come up in some of theresearch about ketamine, about
its actual impact and why it hasbeen such a breakthrough
medicine and why it's being usedmore and more in mental health,
particularly with depression.
But for today, I'm just going tobe talking about my own personal
experience.
So if you're looking for moreinformation, you can tune in to
(01:48):
next week's episode.
So for me, I started hearingmore and more about ketamine a
few years ago.
And the thing that kept comingup that was very interesting and
appealing to me specifically wasthat I was hearing that ketamine
assisted psychotherapy, CAP,I'll frequently be referring to
it as, helped people in ageneral sense with love and
(02:08):
compassion.
But what was particularlyappealing to me was that it
helped with self-love andself-compassion.
As a depressed person, and I'vetalked about this, I now see my
experience as a depressed personas being very related to my
nervous system experience.
But a few years ago, when I washearing about CAP, I actually
was just beginning my path ofreally getting into nervous
(02:28):
system work.
So this was all kind of actuallyhappening for me in a similar
timeline.
There was a lot of newinformation that I was
connecting to and really helpedshape my lens or reshape my lens
on my own experience.
And that led to moreunderstanding about what I
wanted to do to heal throughthat experience.
So as a depressed person, and Iwould say that I had on
depression goggles a huge amountof my life, that when I looked
(02:51):
at the world, sometimes thatseemed pretty bleak.
But when I looked at myself,that was far too often a very
negative perspective.
I have carried a lot ofself-hatred and guilt and shame,
certainly feelings of beingunworthy and not good enough,
and feeling like there was nopath for me to ever become good
enough, that no matter what, Iwas sort of destined to be this
(03:13):
failure for a lot of my life,which is pretty bleak, I have to
admit.
Certainly, there were absolutelymore and more windows when I
wasn't seeing myself that way.
And now I can attribute that tomy nervous system healing.
But at the time, I didn'trealize that the windows where I
was able to see myself with morepositivity and more hopefulness,
they were happening more andmore, and the windows were
(03:33):
staying open a little bitlonger, but they would always
shut.
And I would go back to seeingmyself in this incredibly
negative and quite honestlypainful way.
And when I started hearing thatsome cap sessions had the
potential to change that in somepeople, it got me curious.
And so I started looking into itand doing research.
And I actually got so incrediblyexcited about it that before I
(03:55):
even tried it, I was like, hey,I want to get trained in this
and I want to become a therapistwho can provide CAP sessions.
And the more I started lookingto that path, the more I was
getting feedback of before youjump into training, it's
probably a good idea for you totry it yourself, which of course
made a lot of sense to me.
And so because I was reallyinterested in this experience
for myself of increasing myability to hold self-compassion
(04:18):
and self-love, which is kind ofinteresting as I say this,
because this is how it unfoldedfor me.
My original attraction to CAPwas personal.
But as soon as I learned moreabout it, I actually went in the
direction of wanting to use itto help other people and kind of
almost forgot that it was methat I originally wanted to
start helping.
But luckily, I was re-guided andcoming back to myself and being
(04:38):
able to do my own healing wasactually the first steps that I
took.
And I just want to say here verybriefly, and I will talk about
this more in the next episode,ketamine is often grouped
together under the umbrella ofmedicines known as psychedelics.
However, ketamine is notactually a psychedelic.
And again, I'll talk more aboutthat next time.
But what I want to say just formyself, my own personal journey
(04:58):
without going into too muchdetail, is that as a teenager, I
did have some experience withpsychedelics in a way that I
would call recreational.
And I'll talk about myexperience and how I have come
to define the difference betweenrecreational use of substances
or medicine and therapeutic useof the medicine.
But again, I will talk aboutthat either later today or
perhaps more in the nextepisode.
But I had not had any experiencewith anything under the umbrella
(05:22):
of psychedelics in decades.
And so as I was consideringketamine, there was perhaps less
trepidation or fear than maybesomeone who has never had any
experience with anything underthe umbrella of psychedelics.
But I was still pretty anxiousbecause I didn't know what it
was going to be like and Ididn't know what it was going to
feel like.
And when I grew up in the 90s,what I had heard about ketamine
(05:45):
was that it was a horsetranquilizer and there was talk
about K-holes, which soundedmore scary than relaxing or fun,
to be quite honest.
And that's really what I grew uphearing.
And so you may, depending onwhen you grow up, may have also
grown up hearing things aboutketamine that really didn't
sound so appealing.
And so I wasn't put off, that'sfor sure.
I was very curious, but I wasstill nervous.
(06:06):
So much so that in my firstketamine session, my blood
pressure was really quite high.
And I had to work with mytherapist to do some breath work
and some meditation for quitesome time before my blood
pressure came down to a levelthat was safe enough and we were
following protocol.
Because had it not come down toa safe enough level, then we
would have had to have canceledthe session and rescheduled.
(06:26):
So I just want to put it outthere that I was not just
excited and thrilled andcompletely open to this
experience.
I had a lot of questions, I hada lot of wondering, and I
absolutely had some anxietyaround it.
But just to back up, just totell you a little bit more about
what I actually went through toget to that very first CAP
session, I had gone to a companythat was kind of like an
all-in-one for CAP.
So I was able to connect withthis company and then I was able
(06:47):
to meet with a prescriber, whichin my case was a nurse
practitioner, and they did aninitial evaluation session that
you would have with anypsychiatrist or nurse
practitioner in mental health.
And they did all of the thingsthat would normally happen in a
session like that, my mentalhealth history and why I was
curious about CAP in the firstplace and what I was hoping to
get out of it.
And it was determined that itwas a good fit for where I was.
(07:08):
And then I was able to connectwith a CAP therapist.
And I would have preferred tohave done a CAP session in
person, but unfortunately atthat time I didn't connect with
a local CAP therapist, but I wasable to find somebody who was in
my state, which is New Jersey,and we decided to have virtual
sessions.
And so that means that I wasgoing to take the medicine while
(07:29):
my therapist was live in avirtual session with me.
And I had to have a livein-person in my house with me,
chaperone, who in my case was myhusband.
So in case there was anyemergency, which for me there
never was, I never evenexperienced any nausea or
anything.
I had zero negative sideeffects, but certainly there is
possibility for people to havesome sort of side effect or
(07:51):
things like that.
So I was required to have achaperone present for all of my
sessions.
And before our first session,before our first cap session,
where I took the ketamine, Idid, of course, meet with my
therapist so that we can get toknow each other a little bit
better and she could get to knowme and my intentions.
Intention work is very importantwith ketamine.
You heard me referencepsychedelics earlier, and again,
I'll talk about that more nexttime.
(08:12):
But with psychedelic medicinesor things that are grouped under
that heading, such as ketamine,intentions are very important.
So we did preparation before ourfirst session where I went to
actually take the medicine.
And to prep for the firstsession, I was sent a playlist
that was recommended by mytherapist.
I had earbuds that I couldlisten to the music and also
hear her voice as she talked tome during the session.
(08:34):
And I was invited to use an eyemask if I wanted.
And I actually sleep with an eyemask, and so it felt very
comfortable and familiar to meto use an eye mask.
And so I did use an eye mask.
And then I just had other littlethings like a water bottle and
tissues, and which by the way, Imean, certainly could be if you
start crying or something, it'snice to have tissues nearby.
But actually, the way that Itook the medicine was in a
(08:54):
lozenge, and you have to put itinto your mouth, and then it
dissolves, and you have to swishit around in your mouth for 11
or 12 minutes.
And that process you can kind ofjust like drool a little bit.
So it's helpful to have tissuesnearby and a garbage can and
also a little cup to spit out inbecause after you swish the
medicine, you actually spit, orat least in my case, I don't
know if this is always the case,but I spit the medicine out
(09:15):
after the 12 minutes that helpscontrol the dosing.
I'm actually not yet trained incap, although I still plan to
become trained in cap.
So I don't know all the ins andouts of all of this.
This really is my experience asthe client, but I imagine if you
swallowed the ketamine, youwould have a longer experience.
I don't know if you'd have amore intense experience, but
anyway, I can look into that andI can share that information
(09:36):
with you another time.
So I was already my chaperonewas there.
I had all of the little toolsand things that I needed around
me nearby.
I was going to do it laying downin my bed because ketamine is an
anesthetic.
So even though I was able to getup, for me, I don't think I ever
actually got up during thesession.
I would make sure I went to thebathroom beforehand and then
afterwards.
(09:56):
The sessions were two hours-ish,uh, maybe a little bit longer,
some of the sessions.
But then my husband would helpme if I felt a little unsteady
on my feet to be able to go tothe bathroom.
But certainly I could have goneto the bathroom if I needed
during the session, but I wouldhave probably needed a helping
hand, even if it was just forsafety.
Not that I couldn't, I didn'tneed to be carried to the
bathroom, but I certainly was alittle wobbly on my feet.
(10:19):
And as I already shared, thevery first thing that we had to
do after kind of touching basewas take my blood pressure, and
it was really high the firstday.
And so we took some time to beable to calm my nervous system
down.
My blood pressure did come down,so that was great.
And of course, just as like alittle side note, in the initial
session with the nursepractitioner, the prescriber of
the medication, we did go overlike my health history and all
(10:40):
of that kind of thing, whichwould be considered as well for
your appropriateness if ketaminewas a good fit for you.
Oh, and I will also say that forme, the prescriber sent a
prescription and the lozengeswere mailed to me and I had a
sign for them.
And so that's how I actually gotthem.
So I saw the prescribervirtually, she sent in the
prescription, it got mailed tome, and then I had the medicine
in my hand.
And from what I understand, I dobelieve that if you're working
(11:03):
with a CAP therapist who is nota prescriber, who is not a
medical professional, you'realways self-administering the
ketamine.
If you're going to a hospital ora clinic, there's IV and there's
other options that could bedifferent.
But if you're working with atherapist, my understanding is
you would be self-administering.
And again, in my case, Icertainly was.
And of course, I was home.
But I think had I been in theoffice face to face with my
(11:23):
therapist, I also would havebeen self-administering the
medicine.
I told you that what I wasreally looking to get from these
cat sessions was a greater senseof self-love and
self-compassion.
And in my very first session,after some experiences, again,
I'm wearing an eye mask andlistening to music.
Your experience is guided by themusic, and you kind of go in and
(11:45):
out of your experiences.
But I was laying still in my bedwith the eye mask on, and I was
having these some visuals, butunder the eye mask, behind my
eyes.
I don't mean like I was seeingthings out in the world in my
room.
That's not what happens withketamine.
Again, it's an anesthetic.
It is actually not a truepsychedelic, which is another
conversation that we can have.
But I was seeing colors and sortof shapes and images behind my
(12:07):
mask as my eyes were closed.
And I was having thoughts andexperiences, and I was kind of
like following them.
At the beginning of the session,my therapist had read something
that kind of encouraged me to gowith the flow.
I don't think those were at allher words, but it was something
like, if you see a door, gothrough it.
If you see a flight of steps,climb up them, right?
It's very invitational, likewherever you are, lean into it.
(12:28):
And so I was just leaning intowherever I was, and this thought
came up so clearly to me, whichwas astounding.
And the thought which I said outloud to my therapist, because
she was also a scribe for me,but I also, at least in the
first session, I had my journalnext to me.
But I quickly realized thereason that the therapist was my
(12:48):
scribe and offered herself fromthe very beginning to write down
anything I wanted her to writedown is because I was on an
anesthetic and holding my penwas quite a challenge, but it
was okay.
I was able to do it.
I was able to write because inthat moment it felt important to
me to write myself, even thoughmy therapist said, I can write
that for you.
And I said, Okay, thanks.
After that, by the way, I neveruse my journal again and I just
let my therapist be my scribe.
(13:09):
Writing was available to me, butit was just more difficult than
it needed to be.
I had a focus on holding the pentoo much, and my writing was
huge and messy, and it was justeasier to tell her what I was
thinking.
But all that aside, and thenthis first cap session that I
had, I wrote down the mostbeautiful place in the world is
inside of me.
And please note, I have been avery depressed person for most
(13:31):
of my life.
I would not describe before thismoment many places inside of me
as being beautiful, dark,painful, empty.
Yes, definitely.
Strongly identified with thosewords for my entire life.
But to have this thought emergethat I felt deeply connected to.
It didn't seem crazy in themoment.
It actually seemed the opposite.
It seemed so incredibly truethat the most beautiful place in
(13:56):
the world was inside of me.
I mean, for me, it was arevelation.
And after the experience, I waslike, uh, pretty sure that
worked.
You know, like I think I gotwhat I was looking for.
It was pretty amazing.
And again, the actualexperience, just like
mechanically, was me laying in abed, listening to the music.
My therapist would respond to meif I talked to her, but a lot of
the time I was quiet and sort ofjust having my own internal
(14:18):
experience and again, seeingwhatever I was seeing behind my
closed eyes with the mask on.
I could sit up and take the maskoff.
And sometimes I did, andsometimes I conversed a little
bit more with my therapist, andof course, then she was
available to me.
But sometimes I would just say aword or a phrase or whatever was
coming to mind, and she wouldwrite that down so that I was
able to have like kind of alittle transcript of my
experience, which I think alsowas really helpful because for
(14:40):
me, uh holding on to things,like fear of losing things, like
abandonment kind of fear, Ithink, is present.
I want to hold on to things.
I don't want to run out ofstuff.
I want to make sure I haveenough.
That's like a thing for me.
And being able to let go in thisway and know and trust, and I
did in fact trust my therapist.
I felt connected to her to trustthat she was going to be there
for me.
And that was also just a sidenote.
(15:01):
A huge part of my experiencewith CAP was this process of
trusting my therapist from onesession to the next, that she
was going to be there.
She would let me know if we hadmore time or if we didn't have
time.
I didn't have to worry aboutmanaging.
I trusted her.
I have a lot of, I don't want totake up too much time.
I don't want to be a bother.
So I had a lot of trust in that.
That she was like, no, we haveplenty of time.
(15:22):
If there was some sort of alimit on our time, you would
know.
But the session's going to endwith plenty of time, you know.
This is your space, this is yourtime, which was really healing
for me.
And it took several sessions forme to be like, is it okay?
You know, because it offered abooster.
It's sort of like a second dose,a smaller dose than the first.
That I wouldn't say intensifiedmy experience of it really.
I think it just made it last alittle bit longer.
(15:43):
And it was a similar process.
You put the lozenge in yourmouth, you swirled it around for
11 minutes or something, andthen spit it out.
And then, like I said, I thinkit just prolonged the duration,
the length of time.
I didn't really have a moreintense experience.
But sometimes she'd say, Oh, youknow, now's the time for your
booster if you'd like it.
And I'd be like, wait, are yousure?
Like, do you have enough time?
Like, what time's your nextclient?
You know, like I was veryworried about taking up too much
(16:04):
of her time.
And over many sessions, that Ireally worked with that a lot
and my ability to trust her inmany ways, certainly around
time.
But that she was there for me.
I felt really supported, uh,intended to and cared for.
And I think it was the firstsession, maybe.
And it seemed so silly, but Iwas like, I realized I forgot my
lip balm on my dresser, whichwas, I don't know, 10 feet away
(16:25):
from where I was slaying.
And I could have gotten up forit, but they had told me, don't
get up on your own.
You should ask for help if youfeel like you need to move for
any reason.
So I said to my therapist, like,Oh, could you like ask Ben to
bring me my chapstick?
He was downstairs working onlineand he had to come upstairs and
get my chapstick that was farcloser to me than it was to him.
But we worked on, like, yeah,no, it's okay.
You can ask for help and we'regonna be here for you.
(16:46):
My therapist was there for me,Ben was there for me.
And I am like literally talkingabout him getting my lip balm.
But I have to tell you that thislittle tiny thing felt so
profound to me because I'm notreally used to asking for help,
quite honestly.
I'm gonna do it myself, largelybecause I don't expect people to
be there for me.
I don't expect that people wantto help me or can help me.
That's old, old stories for me.
(17:08):
And so I'm self-reliant, notnecessarily because I want to
be.
Some people hold the story oflike, well, I have to do it
myself because others won't doit right.
And I definitely have some ofthat.
I can't lie.
I do have a flavor of if I wantit done right, I have to do it
myself.
That's definitely true.
But really, much more for me,it's like, I just don't expect
anyone to be there for me.
No one cares enough.
I'm not lovable enough.
I'm not deserving enough ofhaving somebody support me.
(17:30):
So to ask out loud to mytherapist, who then communicated
to my husband, and then all of asudden, magically, you know,
within a minute or two, my lipbalm appeared in my hand, right
next to me was this little tinybut huge moment of like, ah,
people are there for me and theycan help.
They want to help, as a matterof fact, which was really
powerful for me.
So, yeah, and so then eventuallyI kind of just started feeling
(17:52):
less.
I don't know how to explain thatmore clearly.
I'd have to really think aboutit, but you know, kind of like
the being connected to the musicand being connected to my
internal experience kind of justfaded a little bit more that I
wanted to be connectedexternally.
I think that's how I wouldreally best describe it.
And I would kind of like takeoff my mask.
And like I said, there weretimes when I would take off my
mask during the height of themedicine when it was most
(18:14):
effective.
But a lot of the time I reallywanted to be internal.
And then I would kind of justget to a place where I felt like
taking off my mask and we wouldstart to talk a little bit more,
you know, not just about theweather, about my experience,
but I kind of had a moreexternal focus, or maybe even a
better way of describing it asactually a more relational
focus.
I wanted to be connected and Iwanted to have the back and
forth and feel my therapist'spresence.
(18:35):
I even had, I don't know howmany times, definitely a couple,
not every time, but there weretimes where I would ask my
therapist to invite my husbandup.
I would say, like, oh, do youhave a little window?
Is it okay that you spend sometime with me?
And I would sometimes just wantto sit with him, or sometimes I
would say something that feltimportant that I wanted to
share.
And so I had moments where Ireally felt like more
relational, but a lot of theexperience while I was actually
(18:56):
sitting with the medicine wasmuch more internal, at least for
me.
I would just kind of feel likemore present in the world and
less focused internally.
And then I would kind of justknow the session was coming to a
close and take my blood pressureagain to make sure that it was
in the normal parameters and Iwould get the little medical
thing in case of whateverfeeling dizzy or anything
happening over the next few daysto reach out to my therapist or
(19:17):
go to an ER or something likethat.
But like I said, I never had anynegative experience at all, no
negative side effects at allwith the ketamine.
And again, that's certainlypossible, just that was my
experience.
And then the other thing that wewould just make sure we touch
on, it was already scheduled,but we also had scheduled what
was called an integrationsession uh within a few days.
So I didn't schedule it while Iwas actually in my ketamine
(19:40):
session.
I scheduled it previously, butwe would just say, like, oh,
we'll talk to each other Fridayor something like that.
So we already had a session forintegration set up afterwards.
And integration basically justmeans a session where you talk,
in my case, my therapist who wastrained in integration and
ketamine work.
And we would take what happenedas part of my experience when I
was with the medicine, thethoughts, the feelings, the
(20:01):
experiences, the perspective,and we would work on integrating
that into my regular life.
And I mentioned earlier how Ihave come to see the difference
of what recreational andtherapeutic substance use looks
like is that recreational usecan be actually amazing and you
can have profound experiences.
I don't think that it's a lessthan experience in any way.
But what I think is different asI have come to see it from
(20:24):
recreational and therapeutic isthat recreationally, you don't
have a trained professional orhealing person.
Like I had my therapist with mefor the whole duration of my
experience with the medicine.
And recreationally, you do nothave integration follow-up.
So you might have a profoundlyamazing experience working with,
and again, I'm talking aboutperhaps all the medicines that
(20:45):
are under the umbrella ofpsychedelics, even though
ketamine is not actually apsychedelic, it is often grouped
with psychedelics because of howthey impact the nervous system
of the brain, even though theactual processes are different
and the experiences certainlycan be very different.
But recreationally, you don'thave a trained professional
sitting with you while you'rewith the medicine and you don't
have integration follow-up tohelp you bring it into your real
life, into your regularday-to-day life.
(21:07):
And so for me, that's thedifference between recreational
and therapeutic use of thesemedicines.
And I think that that makes allthe difference.
It certainly did for me becauseI was able to talk about the
themes that came up and not somuch put a plan in action.
Sometimes it was that, sometimesit was like a specific thing,
but it was really like lookinghow to hold on to and keep these
(21:29):
themes and really my livedexperience of being with the
medicine where the mostbeautiful place in the world was
inside of me.
How do I take that and continueto hold that in my life?
And this for me was really themagic of cap work because I was
able to actually carry this newexperience with me because it
(21:51):
wasn't that I thought, oh yeah,the most beautiful place in the
world is inside of me.
Okay, that's true now.
It was that I felt that.
I had a felt sense in my bodythat this was true.
And all of a sudden, this newperspective opened up for me of
what was possible for me.
I've been talking about restquite a bit in my recent
episodes.
I also had an experience, and Ithink this was in my second cap
(22:13):
session, but where I literallyhad this experience where I took
a deep breath and the thoughtthat came with it was I can
breathe here.
This is a place where I don'thave to hold my breath.
I don't have to push hard and beout of breath.
This is a place where I cansettle in and take an expansive,
full breath.
And that became a theme of myintegration as well.
(22:33):
That was an important theme of Ican breathe here.
And how do I bring thatexperience into my everyday
life?
How can I create more space forme to breathe when I often felt
very constricted, very out ofbreath, very pushed, uh, very
shallow in breath.
And it became this livedexperience.
Like it wasn't a thought that Iwas like, oh yeah, that sounds
like a good idea.
My body actually knew, oh, yeah,inside of you is beautiful.
(22:56):
I feel it, I've seen it, it'sthere.
It wasn't a concept, it wasn'tan idea.
It wasn't even just a thought inmy head.
It was like a true livedexperience that I had felt in my
bones, as well as the I canbreathe here idea that this is a
space that's safe for me tobreathe.
I will also say I've done ninecap sessions over just about a
year.
So I wasn't doing them superfrequently.
(23:18):
And I haven't had a cap sessionin probably almost a year now.
Maybe I don't remember the exactdate of my last session.
And I probably will have anotherCAP session in the future, but I
don't at this moment feel theneed to have another CAP
session.
I had them as it made sense andas it felt like, oh yeah, I'm
feeling like a it's a good timefor a CAP session to be
scheduled.
And there is a protocol of likehow frequently or infrequently,
(23:38):
I can't remember exactly whatthose details were.
Maybe it was four to six weeksor something.
I don't exactly recall for whatI was using it for.
There's all different protocolsfor all different modalities of
how you can have CAP sessionsthat I won't go into right now,
but that was just how it workedfor me.
But there was a sustainabilityof really being able to carry
with me these new experiencesthat shaped and transformed, and
(24:00):
I would absolutely say healed mynervous system and I think also
my brain, my neuroplasticity.
I think my brain did a lot ofgrowing with this work.
And again, I'll talk more aboutsort of the research on that
next time.
But my perspective shift and Ifelt healed.
And I would, I will say thatwhen I am regularly meditating,
and for me, regularly meditatingmeans 20 minutes a day.
And maybe after, I don't knowexactly, I've never like tracked
(24:22):
it, but maybe three or fourmonths, I would say, uh, if I am
meditating every single day, Ihave had similar experiences.
That is definitely when mywindow of self-love and
self-compassion has been openand stays open and has felt the
widest.
And where accessing those partsof myself has been possible, it
has been through continuedmeditation.
However, I often fall off themeditation wagon, often when I'm
(24:45):
stressed or depressed, or youknow, the times when I really
need it most.
And then that window would closeagain.
And with CAP, I have to say, sofar, a few years into the
experience, I'm still human.
I have bad days, but now I wouldactually say I have dysregulated
days.
My nervous system does whatnervous systems do, my brain
does what brains do.
But the healing experience andwhat I've been able to carry has
(25:05):
been something that I canactually carry with me and has
stayed with me in a verydifferent way.
Again, if I'm consistentlymeditating, that has been more
available to me.
But if I'm not meditating, thenthat has fallen away.
This is also true, and I willnot speak to it now, but this is
also, I think, similar to whenyou're on traditional
prescription medications foranxiety or depression.
They work generally when you'retaking them, and when you stop
(25:25):
taking them, they don't workanymore.
So again, I won't talk aboutthat more, but I'll touch on
that in the next episode or two.
But ketamine was something thatprovided a healing experience
for me, and I was able to takeit with me in my life and
sustain it, which has beenpretty extraordinary.
So, after, like I said, about ayear of doing CAP work, and by
this time, again, I was alsodoing a lot of nervous system
work and had new language forwhat I was experiencing, which
(25:45):
just happened to work reallywell together.
But I really came to look backat my year of ketamine-assisted
psychotherapy work as havinggiven me a new experience of
what is known in the polyvagalworld by Deb Dana as safely
still.
And it is this beautiful nervoussystem blend of safe, grounded
ventral energy, which is ourthat's the safe state of our
(26:07):
nervous system, ventral energy,combined with regulated, and
because it's combined withventral energy, that's what
makes it regulated, butregulated dorsal energy.
And dorsal is when it'sregulated, our rest and digest
state of our nervous system.
Dysregulated dorsal is whenventral energy is not present,
and then that dorsal survivalenergy, and that's collapse,
shutdown, withdraw.
(26:28):
And I would also say when you'restuck there, that's depression.
But when you are regulated andyou have this beautiful blend of
this dorsal energy and thisventral energy, like I said, Deb
Dana's term is forward is safelystill.
And that's what for me, Cap gaveme was this experience of
feeling my body to be safelystill.
Because for me, again, as adepressed person, I have
(26:49):
realized when I began to slowdown, I often would just jump
right into shutdown.
I would say, Oh yeah, like Iknow how to relax.
People were like, oh no, I can'trelax.
I'm always go, go, go.
I for years was like, I know howto relax.
I have no problem relaxing.
And I was so incredibly wrong.
I didn't realize that at thetime, but I felt really
committed.
Like, no way, I have no problemrelaxing.
But what I really meant is thatI could shut down at the end of
(27:10):
the night, like no one'sbusiness.
I could zone out often with mybeer or my wine and you know,
watch Netflix or whatever TVshow years and years ago or
movie that was on, and I couldbe totally disconnected.
That was not rest.
It took me a really long time tofigure that out.
And that's why I'm talking aboutketamine today in the context of
the fact that I've just had somerecent episodes on rest.
(27:32):
Because for me, cat, I was gonnasay it helped me connect with my
ability to rest, but I think itwas more than that.
I think that it healed mynervous system so that it wasn't
fried, so that I could actuallymove into slowdown and rest and
relaxation and renewal in a waythat just really hadn't been
available to me for decades.
It just wasn't an option.
So in my head, I would say,like, oh yeah, I totally can
(27:54):
rest.
You know, when I heard peopletalking about not being able to
slow down, I was like, not me, Ican slow down.
But I subsequently realized thatreally shutdown is actually not
the same thing as slowdown.
And I am happy to report thattoday, certainly from my
experience with CAP and otherthings, and a lot of it has to
do with my nervous system workas well, and many other
wonderful healing experiencesand many wonderful healing
(28:16):
people that I have had in mylife over the last several
years.
I definitely am in a place wheremy system knows how to actually
slow down without shutting down.
And I can enjoy these beautiful,abundant moments, nourishing
moments of stillness and quietthat actually really give me
rest experiences.
And I also notice that I canidentify when I need rest.
(28:39):
Like if I like recently I'vebeen traveling and doing all
these really wonderful thingsthat are fantastic, but it's
been pushing my system becauseI've been busy and having to do
all these things.
I mean, not having, I reallyhave been getting to do these
really cool things recently.
But when I come home, I noticethat I'm a little bit run down.
And I have found that, again, Iwould attribute this very
largely to my experience withCAP, that I can say, oh, I need
(29:01):
to rest today.
Maybe I don't feel my first dayor two back from traveling with
the 7,000 things that, yeah, areon my to-do list.
Maybe I say, hmm, not today.
I actually need to give myselfspace to rest.
And I can do that withcompassion instead of shame,
which is what I used to do.
If I took time to rest, if I wassick or really felt exhausted or
depleted, there was this like,oh my goodness, like, what's
(29:22):
wrong with you?
There's so much to do.
You never have enough time toget everything done anyway.
Like, what are you doing?
Taking a nap in the afternoon.
There was so much shame, again,with depression goggles and the
perspective that I used to holdthat I just don't hold anymore.
And again, my nervous systemgoes into dorsal.
I certainly have experiencesthat I won't talk about at
length now, although I'vetouched on them before on my
podcast, and I certainly willagain in the future, but they're
(29:42):
just completely different thanwhat they used to be.
But my experience with CAPreally has been something
profound.
And again, it came to me in atime when it wasn't just CAP.
There was a lot of things goingon.
I've certainly done a ton oftherapy prior to working with
ketamine, and I also was workingwith a therapist the whole time
that I was.
Having ketamine sessions, thesame therapist, my cat
therapist.
(30:03):
So I had professional supportthroughout the whole thing.
Like I said, integration was keyin being able to really support
and sustain my transformation, Iwould say.
So I don't want this to be aketamine commercial.
I hope that it doesn't land thatway.
I do really think I've hadamazing results with it.
But and I'll touch on this alittle bit more next time.
The way ketamine can be usedcurrently in the mental health
(30:23):
world varies a lot.
And sometimes it can be risky ormore risky than other times.
I think the way that I did itwas pretty low risk.
And also what I was going for.
And again, the amount of therapyI've had and the amount of
support I had and my therapistand all of that, I think lowered
a lot of the risks for the waythat I did it.
And I personally, if someone wasinterested in ketamine, would
(30:44):
recommend going that route, thesupported route with a trusted
professional who's going to bethere with you during the
session and after the session.
So I don't think that allketamine assisted therapies are
equal.
I think that there's a lot ofdifferent ways that they could
be done.
And again, some of them are comewith higher risk than others.
But for me, it's been a reallyintegral part of my healing
journey.
And that's why I'm sharing itand also why I'm choosing to
(31:06):
share it after these severalsessions on rest because I think
it was a part of my healingexperience that was really
significant.
And perhaps, since it worked sowell for me, perhaps it could,
of course, work well for others.
And that's not anecdotal.
I mean, there's a lot ofresearch on it, but again, there
are no guarantees.
And just as I said at thebeginning, I'm not giving
medical advice or treatment.
And I certainly, although I wishI could, I cannot guarantee that
(31:28):
someone's experience withketamine would be the same as
mine.
So I can't guarantee that itwould quote unquote work the
same for you as it has for me,which I think is important to
remember.
But if you're struggling andfeeling really stuck in some
places around being depressed,around never feeling well
rested, not being able to getsleep, never feeling renewed,
those kinds of things, ketaminemight be something that you
(31:50):
choose to look into.
So I will continue to talk nexttime a little bit more on the
research and really how ketamineis impacting the nervous system
in the brain.
So if you're interested in that,please join me again next week.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments becauseI want to thank you for showing
up today.
And I want to leave you with aninvitation as you hit stop and
(32:13):
move back out into the world onyour own unique wellness
journey.
In order to move from where youare today to the place where you
want to be, the path may seemlong or unclear or unknown.
And I want you to know that ifthat seems scary or daunting or
downright terrifying or anythingelse, that is totally okay.
(32:34):
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at
once.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride.
And that is why my invitation toyou today is to take a step,
just one.
Any type, any size, in anydirection.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step you visualizetaking in your mind.
(32:56):
It can be a step towards actionor towards rest or connection or
self-care or whatever step makessense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday because getting to a place
that feels better, more joyful,more connected than the place
where you are today is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
(33:17):
even when depression is in yourbed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media attrish.sanders.lcsw.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes, and I love
hearing from you.
(33:37):
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may be
interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take a
step.
Hello, and welcome to the When Depression is in
your bed podcast.
Kenamine Assisted Psychotherapy,or CAP, has been coming up more
and more in conversations abouthealing and mental health.
For some, it sparks curiosity.
For others, hesitation,questions, or even concern.
No matter where you stand, ifyou've ever wondered what it was
actually like, this episode isfor you.
(00:22):
I'll be sharing my first handexperience with CAP, how it
became a doorway into nervoussystem healing, and how it
taught me what it truly means torest in a way that I wasn't sure
was possible.
At least not for me.
I'm your host, Trish Sanders,and I am delighted that you are
here.
Let's get started.
Before we dive in, I do want tojust give a quick heads up about
(00:43):
what I'm sharing today.
I am a licensed clinical socialworker and I will be talking
about ketamine-assistedpsychotherapy.
I will be sharing my ownpersonal experience and what
I've learned professionally, buteverything that I share is for
educational purposes only.
I am not giving medical advice,making any treatment
recommendations, or suggestingthat anyone try ketamine.
(01:03):
And I certainly can't guaranteethat the effects that I
experienced will be the same orcould be guaranteed for anyone
else who might be trying to usethe same or similar treatment.
If you're thinking aboutketamine-assisted psychotherapy,
please check in with a licensedhealthcare provider who can
guide you safely and addressyour unique situation,
questions, and concerns.
In the next episode, I am goingto be sharing more information
(01:26):
about the history of ketamine,why it has seemed to just jump
on the scene with suchpopularity these days, and what
has come up in some of theresearch about ketamine, about
its actual impact and why it hasbeen such a breakthrough
medicine and why it's being usedmore and more in mental health,
particularly with depression.
But for today, I'm just going tobe talking about my own personal
experience.
So if you're looking for moreinformation, you can tune in to
(01:48):
next week's episode.
So for me, I started hearingmore and more about ketamine a
few years ago.
And the thing that kept comingup that was very interesting and
appealing to me specifically wasthat I was hearing that ketamine
assisted psychotherapy, CAP,I'll frequently be referring to
it as, helped people in ageneral sense with love and
(02:08):
compassion.
But what was particularlyappealing to me was that it
helped with self-love andself-compassion.
As a depressed person, and I'vetalked about this, I now see my
experience as a depressed personas being very related to my
nervous system experience.
But a few years ago, when I washearing about CAP, I actually
was just beginning my path ofreally getting into nervous
(02:28):
system work.
So this was all kind of actuallyhappening for me in a similar
timeline.
There was a lot of newinformation that I was
connecting to and really helpedshape my lens or reshape my lens
on my own experience.
And that led to moreunderstanding about what I
wanted to do to heal throughthat experience.
So as a depressed person, and Iwould say that I had on
depression goggles a huge amountof my life, that when I looked
(02:51):
at the world, sometimes thatseemed pretty bleak.
But when I looked at myself,that was far too often a very
negative perspective.
I have carried a lot ofself-hatred and guilt and shame,
certainly feelings of beingunworthy and not good enough,
and feeling like there was nopath for me to ever become good
enough, that no matter what, Iwas sort of destined to be this
(03:13):
failure for a lot of my life,which is pretty bleak, I have to
admit.
Certainly, there were absolutelymore and more windows when I
wasn't seeing myself that way.
And now I can attribute that tomy nervous system healing.
But at the time, I didn'trealize that the windows where I
was able to see myself with morepositivity and more hopefulness,
they were happening more andmore, and the windows were
(03:33):
staying open a little bitlonger, but they would always
shut.
And I would go back to seeingmyself in this incredibly
negative and quite honestlypainful way.
And when I started hearing thatsome cap sessions had the
potential to change that in somepeople, it got me curious.
And so I started looking into itand doing research.
And I actually got so incrediblyexcited about it that before I
(03:55):
even tried it, I was like, hey,I want to get trained in this
and I want to become a therapistwho can provide CAP sessions.
And the more I started lookingto that path, the more I was
getting feedback of before youjump into training, it's
probably a good idea for you totry it yourself, which of course
made a lot of sense to me.
And so because I was reallyinterested in this experience
for myself of increasing myability to hold self-compassion
(04:18):
and self-love, which is kind ofinteresting as I say this,
because this is how it unfoldedfor me.
My original attraction to CAPwas personal.
But as soon as I learned moreabout it, I actually went in the
direction of wanting to use itto help other people and kind of
almost forgot that it was methat I originally wanted to
start helping.
But luckily, I was re-guided andcoming back to myself and being
(04:38):
able to do my own healing wasactually the first steps that I
took.
And I just want to say here verybriefly, and I will talk about
this more in the next episode,ketamine is often grouped
together under the umbrella ofmedicines known as psychedelics.
However, ketamine is notactually a psychedelic.
And again, I'll talk more aboutthat next time.
But what I want to say just formyself, my own personal journey
(04:58):
without going into too muchdetail, is that as a teenager, I
did have some experience withpsychedelics in a way that I
would call recreational.
And I'll talk about myexperience and how I have come
to define the difference betweenrecreational use of substances
or medicine and therapeutic useof the medicine.
But again, I will talk aboutthat either later today or
perhaps more in the nextepisode.
But I had not had any experiencewith anything under the umbrella
(05:22):
of psychedelics in decades.
And so as I was consideringketamine, there was perhaps less
trepidation or fear than maybesomeone who has never had any
experience with anything underthe umbrella of psychedelics.
But I was still pretty anxiousbecause I didn't know what it
was going to be like and Ididn't know what it was going to
feel like.
And when I grew up in the 90s,what I had heard about ketamine
(05:45):
was that it was a horsetranquilizer and there was talk
about K-holes, which soundedmore scary than relaxing or fun,
to be quite honest.
And that's really what I grew uphearing.
And so you may, depending onwhen you grow up, may have also
grown up hearing things aboutketamine that really didn't
sound so appealing.
And so I wasn't put off, that'sfor sure.
I was very curious, but I wasstill nervous.
(06:06):
So much so that in my firstketamine session, my blood
pressure was really quite high.
And I had to work with mytherapist to do some breath work
and some meditation for quitesome time before my blood
pressure came down to a levelthat was safe enough and we were
following protocol.
Because had it not come down toa safe enough level, then we
would have had to have canceledthe session and rescheduled.
(06:26):
So I just want to put it outthere that I was not just
excited and thrilled andcompletely open to this
experience.
I had a lot of questions, I hada lot of wondering, and I
absolutely had some anxietyaround it.
But just to back up, just totell you a little bit more about
what I actually went through toget to that very first CAP
session, I had gone to a companythat was kind of like an
all-in-one for CAP.
So I was able to connect withthis company and then I was able
(06:47):
to meet with a prescriber, whichin my case was a nurse
practitioner, and they did aninitial evaluation session that
you would have with anypsychiatrist or nurse
practitioner in mental health.
And they did all of the thingsthat would normally happen in a
session like that, my mentalhealth history and why I was
curious about CAP in the firstplace and what I was hoping to
get out of it.
And it was determined that itwas a good fit for where I was.
(07:08):
And then I was able to connectwith a CAP therapist.
And I would have preferred tohave done a CAP session in
person, but unfortunately atthat time I didn't connect with
a local CAP therapist, but I wasable to find somebody who was in
my state, which is New Jersey,and we decided to have virtual
sessions.
And so that means that I wasgoing to take the medicine while
(07:29):
my therapist was live in avirtual session with me.
And I had to have a livein-person in my house with me,
chaperone, who in my case was myhusband.
So in case there was anyemergency, which for me there
never was, I never evenexperienced any nausea or
anything.
I had zero negative sideeffects, but certainly there is
possibility for people to havesome sort of side effect or
(07:51):
things like that.
So I was required to have achaperone present for all of my
sessions.
And before our first session,before our first cap session,
where I took the ketamine, Idid, of course, meet with my
therapist so that we can get toknow each other a little bit
better and she could get to knowme and my intentions.
Intention work is very importantwith ketamine.
You heard me referencepsychedelics earlier, and again,
I'll talk about that more nexttime.
(08:12):
But with psychedelic medicinesor things that are grouped under
that heading, such as ketamine,intentions are very important.
So we did preparation before ourfirst session where I went to
actually take the medicine.
And to prep for the firstsession, I was sent a playlist
that was recommended by mytherapist.
I had earbuds that I couldlisten to the music and also
hear her voice as she talked tome during the session.
(08:34):
And I was invited to use an eyemask if I wanted.
And I actually sleep with an eyemask, and so it felt very
comfortable and familiar to meto use an eye mask.
And so I did use an eye mask.
And then I just had other littlethings like a water bottle and
tissues, and which by the way, Imean, certainly could be if you
start crying or something, it'snice to have tissues nearby.
But actually, the way that Itook the medicine was in a
(08:54):
lozenge, and you have to put itinto your mouth, and then it
dissolves, and you have to swishit around in your mouth for 11
or 12 minutes.
And that process you can kind ofjust like drool a little bit.
So it's helpful to have tissuesnearby and a garbage can and
also a little cup to spit out inbecause after you swish the
medicine, you actually spit, orat least in my case, I don't
know if this is always the case,but I spit the medicine out
(09:15):
after the 12 minutes that helpscontrol the dosing.
I'm actually not yet trained incap, although I still plan to
become trained in cap.
So I don't know all the ins andouts of all of this.
This really is my experience asthe client, but I imagine if you
swallowed the ketamine, youwould have a longer experience.
I don't know if you'd have amore intense experience, but
anyway, I can look into that andI can share that information
(09:36):
with you another time.
So I was already my chaperonewas there.
I had all of the little toolsand things that I needed around
me nearby.
I was going to do it laying downin my bed because ketamine is an
anesthetic.
So even though I was able to getup, for me, I don't think I ever
actually got up during thesession.
I would make sure I went to thebathroom beforehand and then
afterwards.
(09:56):
The sessions were two hours-ish,uh, maybe a little bit longer,
some of the sessions.
But then my husband would helpme if I felt a little unsteady
on my feet to be able to go tothe bathroom.
But certainly I could have goneto the bathroom if I needed
during the session, but I wouldhave probably needed a helping
hand, even if it was just forsafety.
Not that I couldn't, I didn'tneed to be carried to the
bathroom, but I certainly was alittle wobbly on my feet.
(10:19):
And as I already shared, thevery first thing that we had to
do after kind of touching basewas take my blood pressure, and
it was really high the firstday.
And so we took some time to beable to calm my nervous system
down.
My blood pressure did come down,so that was great.
And of course, just as like alittle side note, in the initial
session with the nursepractitioner, the prescriber of
the medication, we did go overlike my health history and all
(10:40):
of that kind of thing, whichwould be considered as well for
your appropriateness if ketaminewas a good fit for you.
Oh, and I will also say that forme, the prescriber sent a
prescription and the lozengeswere mailed to me and I had a
sign for them.
And so that's how I actually gotthem.
So I saw the prescribervirtually, she sent in the
prescription, it got mailed tome, and then I had the medicine
in my hand.
And from what I understand, I dobelieve that if you're working
(11:03):
with a CAP therapist who is nota prescriber, who is not a
medical professional, you'realways self-administering the
ketamine.
If you're going to a hospital ora clinic, there's IV and there's
other options that could bedifferent.
But if you're working with atherapist, my understanding is
you would be self-administering.
And again, in my case, Icertainly was.
And of course, I was home.
But I think had I been in theoffice face to face with my
(11:23):
therapist, I also would havebeen self-administering the
medicine.
I told you that what I wasreally looking to get from these
cat sessions was a greater senseof self-love and
self-compassion.
And in my very first session,after some experiences, again,
I'm wearing an eye mask andlistening to music.
Your experience is guided by themusic, and you kind of go in and
(11:45):
out of your experiences.
But I was laying still in my bedwith the eye mask on, and I was
having these some visuals, butunder the eye mask, behind my
eyes.
I don't mean like I was seeingthings out in the world in my
room.
That's not what happens withketamine.
Again, it's an anesthetic.
It is actually not a truepsychedelic, which is another
conversation that we can have.
But I was seeing colors and sortof shapes and images behind my
(12:07):
mask as my eyes were closed.
And I was having thoughts andexperiences, and I was kind of
like following them.
At the beginning of the session,my therapist had read something
that kind of encouraged me to gowith the flow.
I don't think those were at allher words, but it was something
like, if you see a door, gothrough it.
If you see a flight of steps,climb up them, right?
It's very invitational, likewherever you are, lean into it.
(12:28):
And so I was just leaning intowherever I was, and this thought
came up so clearly to me, whichwas astounding.
And the thought which I said outloud to my therapist, because
she was also a scribe for me,but I also, at least in the
first session, I had my journalnext to me.
But I quickly realized thereason that the therapist was my
(12:48):
scribe and offered herself fromthe very beginning to write down
anything I wanted her to writedown is because I was on an
anesthetic and holding my penwas quite a challenge, but it
was okay.
I was able to do it.
I was able to write because inthat moment it felt important to
me to write myself, even thoughmy therapist said, I can write
that for you.
And I said, Okay, thanks.
After that, by the way, I neveruse my journal again and I just
let my therapist be my scribe.
(13:09):
Writing was available to me, butit was just more difficult than
it needed to be.
I had a focus on holding the pentoo much, and my writing was
huge and messy, and it was justeasier to tell her what I was
thinking.
But all that aside, and thenthis first cap session that I
had, I wrote down the mostbeautiful place in the world is
inside of me.
And please note, I have been avery depressed person for most
(13:31):
of my life.
I would not describe before thismoment many places inside of me
as being beautiful, dark,painful, empty.
Yes, definitely.
Strongly identified with thosewords for my entire life.
But to have this thought emergethat I felt deeply connected to.
It didn't seem crazy in themoment.
It actually seemed the opposite.
It seemed so incredibly truethat the most beautiful place in
(13:56):
the world was inside of me.
I mean, for me, it was arevelation.
And after the experience, I waslike, uh, pretty sure that
worked.
You know, like I think I gotwhat I was looking for.
It was pretty amazing.
And again, the actualexperience, just like
mechanically, was me laying in abed, listening to the music.
My therapist would respond to meif I talked to her, but a lot of
the time I was quiet and sort ofjust having my own internal
(14:18):
experience and again, seeingwhatever I was seeing behind my
closed eyes with the mask on.
I could sit up and take the maskoff.
And sometimes I did, andsometimes I conversed a little
bit more with my therapist, andof course, then she was
available to me.
But sometimes I would just say aword or a phrase or whatever was
coming to mind, and she wouldwrite that down so that I was
able to have like kind of alittle transcript of my
experience, which I think alsowas really helpful because for
(14:40):
me, uh holding on to things,like fear of losing things, like
abandonment kind of fear, Ithink, is present.
I want to hold on to things.
I don't want to run out ofstuff.
I want to make sure I haveenough.
That's like a thing for me.
And being able to let go in thisway and know and trust, and I
did in fact trust my therapist.
I felt connected to her to trustthat she was going to be there
for me.
And that was also just a sidenote.
(15:01):
A huge part of my experiencewith CAP was this process of
trusting my therapist from onesession to the next, that she
was going to be there.
She would let me know if we hadmore time or if we didn't have
time.
I didn't have to worry aboutmanaging.
I trusted her.
I have a lot of, I don't want totake up too much time.
I don't want to be a bother.
So I had a lot of trust in that.
That she was like, no, we haveplenty of time.
(15:22):
If there was some sort of alimit on our time, you would
know.
But the session's going to endwith plenty of time, you know.
This is your space, this is yourtime, which was really healing
for me.
And it took several sessions forme to be like, is it okay?
You know, because it offered abooster.
It's sort of like a second dose,a smaller dose than the first.
That I wouldn't say intensifiedmy experience of it really.
I think it just made it last alittle bit longer.
(15:43):
And it was a similar process.
You put the lozenge in yourmouth, you swirled it around for
11 minutes or something, andthen spit it out.
And then, like I said, I thinkit just prolonged the duration,
the length of time.
I didn't really have a moreintense experience.
But sometimes she'd say, Oh, youknow, now's the time for your
booster if you'd like it.
And I'd be like, wait, are yousure?
Like, do you have enough time?
Like, what time's your nextclient?
You know, like I was veryworried about taking up too much
(16:04):
of her time.
And over many sessions, that Ireally worked with that a lot
and my ability to trust her inmany ways, certainly around
time.
But that she was there for me.
I felt really supported, uh,intended to and cared for.
And I think it was the firstsession, maybe.
And it seemed so silly, but Iwas like, I realized I forgot my
lip balm on my dresser, whichwas, I don't know, 10 feet away
(16:25):
from where I was slaying.
And I could have gotten up forit, but they had told me, don't
get up on your own.
You should ask for help if youfeel like you need to move for
any reason.
So I said to my therapist, like,Oh, could you like ask Ben to
bring me my chapstick?
He was downstairs working onlineand he had to come upstairs and
get my chapstick that was farcloser to me than it was to him.
But we worked on, like, yeah,no, it's okay.
You can ask for help and we'regonna be here for you.
(16:46):
My therapist was there for me,Ben was there for me.
And I am like literally talkingabout him getting my lip balm.
But I have to tell you that thislittle tiny thing felt so
profound to me because I'm notreally used to asking for help,
quite honestly.
I'm gonna do it myself, largelybecause I don't expect people to
be there for me.
I don't expect that people wantto help me or can help me.
That's old, old stories for me.
(17:08):
And so I'm self-reliant, notnecessarily because I want to
be.
Some people hold the story oflike, well, I have to do it
myself because others won't doit right.
And I definitely have some ofthat.
I can't lie.
I do have a flavor of if I wantit done right, I have to do it
myself.
That's definitely true.
But really, much more for me,it's like, I just don't expect
anyone to be there for me.
No one cares enough.
I'm not lovable enough.
I'm not deserving enough ofhaving somebody support me.
(17:30):
So to ask out loud to mytherapist, who then communicated
to my husband, and then all of asudden, magically, you know,
within a minute or two, my lipbalm appeared in my hand, right
next to me was this little tinybut huge moment of like, ah,
people are there for me and theycan help.
They want to help, as a matterof fact, which was really
powerful for me.
So, yeah, and so then eventuallyI kind of just started feeling
(17:52):
less.
I don't know how to explain thatmore clearly.
I'd have to really think aboutit, but you know, kind of like
the being connected to the musicand being connected to my
internal experience kind of justfaded a little bit more that I
wanted to be connectedexternally.
I think that's how I wouldreally best describe it.
And I would kind of like takeoff my mask.
And like I said, there weretimes when I would take off my
mask during the height of themedicine when it was most
(18:14):
effective.
But a lot of the time I reallywanted to be internal.
And then I would kind of justget to a place where I felt like
taking off my mask and we wouldstart to talk a little bit more,
you know, not just about theweather, about my experience,
but I kind of had a moreexternal focus, or maybe even a
better way of describing it asactually a more relational
focus.
I wanted to be connected and Iwanted to have the back and
forth and feel my therapist'spresence.
(18:35):
I even had, I don't know howmany times, definitely a couple,
not every time, but there weretimes where I would ask my
therapist to invite my husbandup.
I would say, like, oh, do youhave a little window?
Is it okay that you spend sometime with me?
And I would sometimes just wantto sit with him, or sometimes I
would say something that feltimportant that I wanted to
share.
And so I had moments where Ireally felt like more
relational, but a lot of theexperience while I was actually
(18:56):
sitting with the medicine wasmuch more internal, at least for
me.
I would just kind of feel likemore present in the world and
less focused internally.
And then I would kind of justknow the session was coming to a
close and take my blood pressureagain to make sure that it was
in the normal parameters and Iwould get the little medical
thing in case of whateverfeeling dizzy or anything
happening over the next few daysto reach out to my therapist or
(19:17):
go to an ER or something likethat.
But like I said, I never had anynegative experience at all, no
negative side effects at allwith the ketamine.
And again, that's certainlypossible, just that was my
experience.
And then the other thing that wewould just make sure we touch
on, it was already scheduled,but we also had scheduled what
was called an integrationsession uh within a few days.
So I didn't schedule it while Iwas actually in my ketamine
(19:40):
session.
I scheduled it previously, butwe would just say, like, oh,
we'll talk to each other Fridayor something like that.
So we already had a session forintegration set up afterwards.
And integration basically justmeans a session where you talk,
in my case, my therapist who wastrained in integration and
ketamine work.
And we would take what happenedas part of my experience when I
was with the medicine, thethoughts, the feelings, the
(20:01):
experiences, the perspective,and we would work on integrating
that into my regular life.
And I mentioned earlier how Ihave come to see the difference
of what recreational andtherapeutic substance use looks
like is that recreational usecan be actually amazing and you
can have profound experiences.
I don't think that it's a lessthan experience in any way.
But what I think is different asI have come to see it from
(20:24):
recreational and therapeutic isthat recreationally, you don't
have a trained professional orhealing person.
Like I had my therapist with mefor the whole duration of my
experience with the medicine.
And recreationally, you do nothave integration follow-up.
So you might have a profoundlyamazing experience working with,
and again, I'm talking aboutperhaps all the medicines that
(20:45):
are under the umbrella ofpsychedelics, even though
ketamine is not actually apsychedelic, it is often grouped
with psychedelics because of howthey impact the nervous system
of the brain, even though theactual processes are different
and the experiences certainlycan be very different.
But recreationally, you don'thave a trained professional
sitting with you while you'rewith the medicine and you don't
have integration follow-up tohelp you bring it into your real
life, into your regularday-to-day life.
(21:07):
And so for me, that's thedifference between recreational
and therapeutic use of thesemedicines.
And I think that that makes allthe difference.
It certainly did for me becauseI was able to talk about the
themes that came up and not somuch put a plan in action.
Sometimes it was that, sometimesit was like a specific thing,
but it was really like lookinghow to hold on to and keep these
(21:29):
themes and really my livedexperience of being with the
medicine where the mostbeautiful place in the world was
inside of me.
How do I take that and continueto hold that in my life?
And this for me was really themagic of cap work because I was
able to actually carry this newexperience with me because it
(21:51):
wasn't that I thought, oh yeah,the most beautiful place in the
world is inside of me.
Okay, that's true now.
It was that I felt that.
I had a felt sense in my bodythat this was true.
And all of a sudden, this newperspective opened up for me of
what was possible for me.
I've been talking about restquite a bit in my recent
episodes.
I also had an experience, and Ithink this was in my second cap
(22:13):
session, but where I literallyhad this experience where I took
a deep breath and the thoughtthat came with it was I can
breathe here.
This is a place where I don'thave to hold my breath.
I don't have to push hard and beout of breath.
This is a place where I cansettle in and take an expansive,
full breath.
And that became a theme of myintegration as well.
(22:33):
That was an important theme of Ican breathe here.
And how do I bring thatexperience into my everyday
life?
How can I create more space forme to breathe when I often felt
very constricted, very out ofbreath, very pushed, uh, very
shallow in breath.
And it became this livedexperience.
Like it wasn't a thought that Iwas like, oh yeah, that sounds
like a good idea.
My body actually knew, oh, yeah,inside of you is beautiful.
(22:56):
I feel it, I've seen it, it'sthere.
It wasn't a concept, it wasn'tan idea.
It wasn't even just a thought inmy head.
It was like a true livedexperience that I had felt in my
bones, as well as the I canbreathe here idea that this is a
space that's safe for me tobreathe.
I will also say I've done ninecap sessions over just about a
year.
So I wasn't doing them superfrequently.
(23:18):
And I haven't had a cap sessionin probably almost a year now.
Maybe I don't remember the exactdate of my last session.
And I probably will have anotherCAP session in the future, but I
don't at this moment feel theneed to have another CAP
session.
I had them as it made sense andas it felt like, oh yeah, I'm
feeling like a it's a good timefor a CAP session to be
scheduled.
And there is a protocol of likehow frequently or infrequently,
(23:38):
I can't remember exactly whatthose details were.
Maybe it was four to six weeksor something.
I don't exactly recall for whatI was using it for.
There's all different protocolsfor all different modalities of
how you can have CAP sessionsthat I won't go into right now,
but that was just how it workedfor me.
But there was a sustainabilityof really being able to carry
with me these new experiencesthat shaped and transformed, and
(24:00):
I would absolutely say healed mynervous system and I think also
my brain, my neuroplasticity.
I think my brain did a lot ofgrowing with this work.
And again, I'll talk more aboutsort of the research on that
next time.
But my perspective shift and Ifelt healed.
And I would, I will say thatwhen I am regularly meditating,
and for me, regularly meditatingmeans 20 minutes a day.
And maybe after, I don't knowexactly, I've never like tracked
(24:22):
it, but maybe three or fourmonths, I would say, uh, if I am
meditating every single day, Ihave had similar experiences.
That is definitely when mywindow of self-love and
self-compassion has been openand stays open and has felt the
widest.
And where accessing those partsof myself has been possible, it
has been through continuedmeditation.
However, I often fall off themeditation wagon, often when I'm
(24:45):
stressed or depressed, or youknow, the times when I really
need it most.
And then that window would closeagain.
And with CAP, I have to say, sofar, a few years into the
experience, I'm still human.
I have bad days, but now I wouldactually say I have dysregulated
days.
My nervous system does whatnervous systems do, my brain
does what brains do.
But the healing experience andwhat I've been able to carry has
(25:05):
been something that I canactually carry with me and has
stayed with me in a verydifferent way.
Again, if I'm consistentlymeditating, that has been more
available to me.
But if I'm not meditating, thenthat has fallen away.
This is also true, and I willnot speak to it now, but this is
also, I think, similar to whenyou're on traditional
prescription medications foranxiety or depression.
They work generally when you'retaking them, and when you stop
(25:25):
taking them, they don't workanymore.
So again, I won't talk aboutthat more, but I'll touch on
that in the next episode or two.
But ketamine was something thatprovided a healing experience
for me, and I was able to takeit with me in my life and
sustain it, which has beenpretty extraordinary.
So, after, like I said, about ayear of doing CAP work, and by
this time, again, I was alsodoing a lot of nervous system
work and had new language forwhat I was experiencing, which
(25:45):
just happened to work reallywell together.
But I really came to look backat my year of ketamine-assisted
psychotherapy work as havinggiven me a new experience of
what is known in the polyvagalworld by Deb Dana as safely
still.
And it is this beautiful nervoussystem blend of safe, grounded
ventral energy, which is ourthat's the safe state of our
(26:07):
nervous system, ventral energy,combined with regulated, and
because it's combined withventral energy, that's what
makes it regulated, butregulated dorsal energy.
And dorsal is when it'sregulated, our rest and digest
state of our nervous system.
Dysregulated dorsal is whenventral energy is not present,
and then that dorsal survivalenergy, and that's collapse,
shutdown, withdraw.
(26:28):
And I would also say when you'restuck there, that's depression.
But when you are regulated andyou have this beautiful blend of
this dorsal energy and thisventral energy, like I said, Deb
Dana's term is forward is safelystill.
And that's what for me, Cap gaveme was this experience of
feeling my body to be safelystill.
Because for me, again, as adepressed person, I have
(26:49):
realized when I began to slowdown, I often would just jump
right into shutdown.
I would say, Oh yeah, like Iknow how to relax.
People were like, oh no, I can'trelax.
I'm always go, go, go.
I for years was like, I know howto relax.
I have no problem relaxing.
And I was so incredibly wrong.
I didn't realize that at thetime, but I felt really
committed.
Like, no way, I have no problemrelaxing.
But what I really meant is thatI could shut down at the end of
(27:10):
the night, like no one'sbusiness.
I could zone out often with mybeer or my wine and you know,
watch Netflix or whatever TVshow years and years ago or
movie that was on, and I couldbe totally disconnected.
That was not rest.
It took me a really long time tofigure that out.
And that's why I'm talking aboutketamine today in the context of
the fact that I've just had somerecent episodes on rest.
(27:32):
Because for me, cat, I was gonnasay it helped me connect with my
ability to rest, but I think itwas more than that.
I think that it healed mynervous system so that it wasn't
fried, so that I could actuallymove into slowdown and rest and
relaxation and renewal in a waythat just really hadn't been
available to me for decades.
It just wasn't an option.
So in my head, I would say,like, oh yeah, I totally can
(27:54):
rest.
You know, when I heard peopletalking about not being able to
slow down, I was like, not me, Ican slow down.
But I subsequently realized thatreally shutdown is actually not
the same thing as slowdown.
And I am happy to report thattoday, certainly from my
experience with CAP and otherthings, and a lot of it has to
do with my nervous system workas well, and many other
wonderful healing experiencesand many wonderful healing
(28:16):
people that I have had in mylife over the last several
years.
I definitely am in a place wheremy system knows how to actually
slow down without shutting down.
And I can enjoy these beautiful,abundant moments, nourishing
moments of stillness and quietthat actually really give me
rest experiences.
And I also notice that I canidentify when I need rest.
(28:39):
Like if I like recently I'vebeen traveling and doing all
these really wonderful thingsthat are fantastic, but it's
been pushing my system becauseI've been busy and having to do
all these things.
I mean, not having, I reallyhave been getting to do these
really cool things recently.
But when I come home, I noticethat I'm a little bit run down.
And I have found that, again, Iwould attribute this very
largely to my experience withCAP, that I can say, oh, I need
(29:01):
to rest today.
Maybe I don't feel my first dayor two back from traveling with
the 7,000 things that, yeah, areon my to-do list.
Maybe I say, hmm, not today.
I actually need to give myselfspace to rest.
And I can do that withcompassion instead of shame,
which is what I used to do.
If I took time to rest, if I wassick or really felt exhausted or
depleted, there was this like,oh my goodness, like, what's
(29:22):
wrong with you?
There's so much to do.
You never have enough time toget everything done anyway.
Like, what are you doing?
Taking a nap in the afternoon.
There was so much shame, again,with depression goggles and the
perspective that I used to holdthat I just don't hold anymore.
And again, my nervous systemgoes into dorsal.
I certainly have experiencesthat I won't talk about at
length now, although I'vetouched on them before on my
podcast, and I certainly willagain in the future, but they're
(29:42):
just completely different thanwhat they used to be.
But my experience with CAPreally has been something
profound.
And again, it came to me in atime when it wasn't just CAP.
There was a lot of things goingon.
I've certainly done a ton oftherapy prior to working with
ketamine, and I also was workingwith a therapist the whole time
that I was.
Having ketamine sessions, thesame therapist, my cat
therapist.
(30:03):
So I had professional supportthroughout the whole thing.
Like I said, integration was keyin being able to really support
and sustain my transformation, Iwould say.
So I don't want this to be aketamine commercial.
I hope that it doesn't land thatway.
I do really think I've hadamazing results with it.
But and I'll touch on this alittle bit more next time.
The way ketamine can be usedcurrently in the mental health
(30:23):
world varies a lot.
And sometimes it can be risky ormore risky than other times.
I think the way that I did itwas pretty low risk.
And also what I was going for.
And again, the amount of therapyI've had and the amount of
support I had and my therapistand all of that, I think lowered
a lot of the risks for the waythat I did it.
And I personally, if someone wasinterested in ketamine, would
(30:44):
recommend going that route, thesupported route with a trusted
professional who's going to bethere with you during the
session and after the session.
So I don't think that allketamine assisted therapies are
equal.
I think that there's a lot ofdifferent ways that they could
be done.
And again, some of them are comewith higher risk than others.
But for me, it's been a reallyintegral part of my healing
journey.
And that's why I'm sharing itand also why I'm choosing to
(31:06):
share it after these severalsessions on rest because I think
it was a part of my healingexperience that was really
significant.
And perhaps, since it worked sowell for me, perhaps it could,
of course, work well for others.
And that's not anecdotal.
I mean, there's a lot ofresearch on it, but again, there
are no guarantees.
And just as I said at thebeginning, I'm not giving
medical advice or treatment.
And I certainly, although I wishI could, I cannot guarantee that
(31:28):
someone's experience withketamine would be the same as
mine.
So I can't guarantee that itwould quote unquote work the
same for you as it has for me,which I think is important to
remember.
But if you're struggling andfeeling really stuck in some
places around being depressed,around never feeling well
rested, not being able to getsleep, never feeling renewed,
those kinds of things, ketaminemight be something that you
(31:50):
choose to look into.
So I will continue to talk nexttime a little bit more on the
research and really how ketamineis impacting the nervous system
in the brain.
So if you're interested in that,please join me again next week.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments becauseI want to thank you for showing
up today.
And I want to leave you with aninvitation as you hit stop and
(32:13):
move back out into the world onyour own unique wellness
journey.
In order to move from where youare today to the place where you
want to be, the path may seemlong or unclear or unknown.
And I want you to know that ifthat seems scary or daunting or
downright terrifying or anythingelse, that is totally okay.
(32:34):
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at
once.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride.
And that is why my invitation toyou today is to take a step,
just one.
Any type, any size, in anydirection.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step you visualizetaking in your mind.
(32:56):
It can be a step towards actionor towards rest or connection or
self-care or whatever step makessense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday because getting to a place
that feels better, more joyful,more connected than the place
where you are today is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
(33:17):
even when depression is in yourbed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media attrish.sanders.lcsw.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes, and I love
hearing from you.
(33:37):
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may be
interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take a
step.
Popular Podcasts
Stuff You Should Know
If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.
The Joe Rogan Experience
The official podcast of comedian Joe Rogan.
Two Guys, Five Rings: Matt, Bowen & The Olympics
Two Guys (Bowen Yang and Matt Rogers). Five Rings (you know, from the Olympics logo). One essential podcast for the 2026 Milan-Cortina Winter Olympics. Bowen Yang (SNL, Wicked) and Matt Rogers (Palm Royale, No Good Deed) of Las Culturistas are back for a second season of Two Guys, Five Rings, a collaboration with NBC Sports and iHeartRadio. In this 15-episode event, Bowen and Matt discuss the top storylines, obsess over Italian culture, and find out what really goes on in the Olympic Village.