March 5, 2025 • 33 mins
Are you exhausted by how much effort you've put in trying to figure out how to help yourself or your partner move out of depression? Are you sick of the struggle? Are you longing to finally figure out this seemingly impossible puzzle?? Look no further, the missing piece that will help your whole picture come together is here! This episode invites you into the transformative world of Polyvagal Theory, a concept that reveals the intricate ties between your nervous system and mental health. By unpacking the dynamics behind emotional regulation, listeners will discover how our biological make-up affects our interactions with the world, others and ourselves. The conversation navigates through the three states of the autonomic nervous system—ventral vagal, sympathetic, and dorsal vagal—providing insights into how they influence our daily experiences and emotional landscapes.
As we explore neuroception, the subconscious mechanism that determines our sense of safety, we highlight the importance of acknowledging adaptive survival states that might lead us to feel overwhelmed or disconnected. You’ll learn how cultivating awareness around these states is essential for fostering connections with loved ones and oneself.
Through engaging anecdotes and relatable examples, we’ll illustrate the vital role of co-regulation in relationships and its significance for handling depression. This episode not only talks about the challenges of emotional regulation but also offers actionable steps to empower you in your journey toward healing and connection.
Join us for an enriching exploration into how understanding our nervous systems can help us reconnect with ourselves and each other, fostering a greater sense of belonging and human resilience in the face of adversity. Ready to take that first step towards emotional clarity and healthier connections? Let's embark on this journey together. Subscribe now, share your thoughts, and remember—you don’t have to navigate this path alone!
As mentioned in this episode, if you are interested in learning further about Polyvagal Theory, one recommended read is Deb Dana's "Anchored," which can be purchased at: https://www.amazon.com/dp/1683647068?tag=&linkCode=ogi&th=1&psc=1
- If you are looking to take the first step towards improving your connection and communication with your partner, check out this FREE monthly webinar on "Becoming a Conscious Couple,".
- If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat!
For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 0 (00:01):
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Are you ready to hear about themissing puzzle piece that will
actually help you and yourpartner finally begin to move
past your struggles withdepression?
If so, you must check outtoday's episode, where I will
dive into an introduction ofpolyvagal theory, which explains
(00:23):
how understanding your nervoussystem will help you understand
what's happening in youreveryday life and also help you
begin to understand what you cando about it.
Starting right now, I'm yourhost, trish Sanders, and I can't
wait to share more about thiswith you.
So let's get started.
As I shared in my last episode,today I'm going to talk about
(00:46):
polyvagal theory, which, for me,has been completely
life-changing, both individuallyand how I really and can work
with my own depression and canactually help support my husband
in his depressive episodes, andit has been as close to magic,
I think, as something canpossibly get, and so I am
extremely excited to share withyou more about it today.
(01:07):
So I mentioned last time thatpolyvagal theory was developed
by Dr Stephen Porges, and itexplains how our autonomic
nervous system, particularly thevagus nerve, which runs from
our brainstem all the way downand throughout our body, and how
the nervous system is actuallyinvolved in our emotional
(01:29):
regulation and our socialengagement, which means our
ability to connect, and howactually the nervous system is
the basis for how we experienceour life.
It explains how our biologyimpacts how we move through the
world or, in the case ofdepression, how we don't move
(01:51):
through the world, how we stayfeeling stuck or immobilized,
and it's really quitefascinating.
And last time I shared how itstheory about the nervous system
supported my own livedexperience of depression,
meaning that what I discoveredabout depression through my own
living with depression over many, many years was actually
explained through the nervoussystem.
(02:12):
And so today I'm going to takea little bit more of a wider
scope sharing about whatpolyvagal theory is all about,
and I will continue to make tiesto what this means for dealing
with depression in yourself andor in your partner.
There are three organizingprinciples in polyvagal theory.
The first one is hierarchy.
Essentially, hierarchy refersto the fact that our nervous
(02:35):
system has three states, which Ireferred to in the last episode
, and we move through thesethree states all day long.
And so when we talk aboutdepression or even anxiety,
we're talking about when ournervous system sort of gets
stuck in one of these states,but actually our nervous system
is moving throughout thesedifferent states for a very
important purpose that actuallysupports our basic functioning
(02:58):
in the world.
And so these three states arethe connected, safe grounding
state that I mentioned last time, which is called ventral vagal,
and then the other two statesare survival states or
protective states.
We have the sympathetic state,which is the mobilized state of
our nervous system, and so whenwe're in survival mode, this
(03:19):
would be known as fight orflight response, that something
is happening to me, I'm feelingthreatened or in danger and I
have to react, I have to dosomething about it.
But we also really need oursympathetic nervous system to
help with our body functions,including regulating our heart
rate, our blood pressure, ourbreathing.
And then the third state iscalled our dorsal state, and it
(03:40):
is a state of disconnection, astate of shutdown.
It would also, in a survivalstate, be thought of as our
body's freeze response, but italso helps us with our digestion
and other functions in our body.
I share this because it's soimportant to understand that
there is no such thing as a badstate.
(04:01):
We need all of our states andthey support us in our
functioning day to day andunderstanding how they work
together and what's reallyhappening and how that relates
to our mental functioning andthe thoughts that we're having
and how we're connecting or notconnecting with others in the
world is really related to thisand what we can do about
problems we may be experiencingin our connecting or in our mood
(04:24):
, or in the negative thoughtsthat we're experiencing or our
diminished functioning.
Understanding how it'sconnected to our nervous system
really starts to give such clearideas about what we can do to
help us feel better.
The second organizing principleof polyvagal theory is something
called neuroception.
Essentially, it is theperception of the nervous system
(04:48):
.
The reason it has its ownseparate name is because
perception when you think aboutthat, it is how we perceive
things and it's a brain function, and when we perceive things,
we often have thoughts and wordsattached to our perception of
something, and neuroceptionactually happens below our
thinking ability.
So this is not a brain function.
This is a starting from thebrain stem, in the lower base of
(05:11):
our brains, in the back of ournecks, going down through our
neck and into our bodies.
This is actually how thenervous system communicates with
the world and it is soincredibly interesting and
important to understand howneuroception works.
Neuroception is always payingattention to what's going on,
and this makes a lot of sensebecause our bodies and brains
(05:34):
are really well equipped fordealing with danger.
The nervous system is alwayspaying attention, it's always
listening, it's always assessingAm I safe, am I in danger?
And in the words of Deb Dana,who is a clinician and
consultant who specializes inthe polyvagal theory and
(05:54):
teaching it and using it in theoffice, she talks about the
three ways that the nervoussystem gets information and she
refers to them as inside,outside and between.
So this means that the nervoussystem is always paying
attention to what's happeninginside the body.
Is there any disturbance?
Is there any pain?
Is there something that isnoteworthy that I need to pay
(06:14):
attention to, that might beindicating danger?
It's also listening outside ofthe body, in the environment,
outside of us.
Are there any cues of dangerthat I need to respond to to
keep me safe?
And then it's also lookingbetween nervous systems, which
means in relationship in thisnervous system to nervous system
communication, which I willtalk much, much more about in
(06:36):
many more episodes, I'm sure.
But in the space betweennervous systems, what cues of
danger or cues of safety am Ireceiving?
Is this a safe relationship oris there a potential threat or
danger that I'm sensing?
I will also take a moment justto note that I mentioned that
the theory was created by DrStephen Porges and he has a lot
of wonderful resources andreadings and more available that
(06:58):
really are about the theory ofpolyvagal theory and it's super
fascinating.
And then Deb Dana is a clinicalpractice of polyvagal theory,
so she's the clinician, how itapplies in the office, what it
looks like, and they both haveextraordinary material that I
highly recommend.
But just to name one, if you'reinterested in polyvagal theory
or you want to learn more, debDana's book Anchored is a
(07:20):
fantastic read.
I really think that everybodyshould read it.
I don't get paid for, I don'tget any kickbacks for anybody
reading it, but it is somethingthat I think is a transformative
read and I will include a linkto it in the notes below so you
can check it out for yourself aswell.
Another really important thingto know about neuroception is
that most of what the nervoussystem is picking up is actually
(07:43):
coming through sensory cues inthe environment or in our body,
our felt experience.
This is a bottom-up stream ofinformation, meaning the
information is coming throughthe body and being sent up to
the brain, which, in the otherdirection, we can have thoughts
which originate in the brain andwe sent up to the brain, which,
in the other direction, we canhave thoughts which originate in
the brain and we're trying totell our body, which is a top
down stream of information.
(08:04):
This is so important becauseI'll use an example actually
with children, because we see inour culture and our society
quite often a child who fallsand gets hurt on the playground
and they skin their knee and alot of the time, very loving,
supportive adults gather aroundthem and they say you're okay,
you're okay, and they're tryingto calm the child down by using
words right, this top-downapproach.
(08:25):
And the child probably is okay.
Right, they probably didn'tbreak a limb, they just need a
little band-aid, they'll be finein just a minute or two.
But in that moment, thatchild's body, from a bottom-up
stream of information, is sayingI'm in pain, I am not okay.
Right, it's not something thatcould be received necessarily
that oh, I am okay now, becausetheir body is telling them
(08:45):
they're not, they're in pain andvaluing the information that
our nervous system is gettingfrom our sensory experience is
so incredibly important becausethis also gives us really
incredible clue about how tohelp us feel better that it's
not always this idea of you know, convincing somebody that
they're okay or you know,telling somebody to relax
(09:05):
doesn't usually work, and thatis because of neuroception.
We are really listening largelyto our felt sensory experience
over words a lot of the time.
Now, just to note, the sensoryexperience gets sent to the
brain and very quickly we doattach words and stories to
neuroception.
But when we're not awarebecause neuroception happens at
(09:26):
a level below conscious thinkingwe start to believe the stories
very automatically.
And sometimes those storiesthat we tell ourselves, these
interpretations that we tellourselves about a situation that
may seem dangerous this may be,if you imagine, you know, if
you walk into the room and yourpartner is sort of in a slump on
the couch on their phone andthat might be a cue of danger
(09:48):
for you, oh, my goodness,they're depressed again.
This night's going to beterrible.
I was looking for a fun,relaxing evening and now I'm
really in for it.
All of a sudden we attach thesestories that may be inaccurate
and then we react to thosestories and that is where change
and growth and healing can comein when we start to bring
consciousness and awareness toour neuroception.
(10:11):
Ah, I'm experiencing a cue ofdanger.
I'm noticing that my nervoussystem is going into a
protective state.
Now I can start to do somethinga little bit different, which I
will talk a lot more about thatprocess in great detail, with
many examples in future episodes.
But just to know that we doattach words and stories to our
neuroception very, very quickly,and the way we can use
(10:32):
neuroception to help us grow andchange and learn is to actually
begin to bring consciousawareness to our neuroception
and start to understand whatreally is happening.
What is the cue of danger?
Is there something that'sreally threatening or is it
really reflecting something elsethat's going on that we can
actually respond to with warmthand compassion and connection,
(10:54):
rather than going into asurvival state?
And knowing that we can workwith our body and our nervous
system and our neuroception andour felt experience in order to
help us to move our nervoussystem to a feeling of safety,
it really starts to open up thepossibility of how we can
respond.
The third organizing principleof polyvagal theory is called
co-regulation, and this is abeautiful, beautiful concept
(11:20):
that can support having betterrelationships with anyone and
everyone, and it is absolutelyvital for parents, for partners,
for friends, for family members, co-workers, educators, for
everyone.
It is just such an importantthing and there is a shift in
society of beginning tounderstand the power of
(11:43):
co-regulation, but I think itreally needs to be at the
forefront of everything we do,because it is the power to
create what we want to createthe relationships we want to
have, the societies we want tohave, the communities, the
schools, the businesses, theorganizations.
It's really core to everything,and so co-regulation
essentially refers to the factthat we are biologically wired
(12:07):
to be in connection with otherpeople.
It's a biological imperative,as a matter of fact, which means
we cannot live withoutconnection, and our nervous
systems actually want to connectto other nervous systems.
And if we're unable to connectwith other nervous systems which
, in the case of depression,depression is disconnection, as
(12:30):
you've heard me talk aboutbefore, which is fully supported
by polyvagal theory If we can'tconnect because we're trying to
protect ourselves, we canreally start to emotionally
starve, so to speak, because weare longing to be in connection
and we're not able to connectand this can be absolutely
completely detrimental to thehuman experience and we can fall
(12:54):
far from living a joyful,connected, passionate, thriving,
alive life and fall intoabsolute despair when we're not
in connection with other nervoussystems, or, in other words,
when we're not havingrelationships with other people.
This becomes a problem if weexperience relationships with
others as a place of danger, aplace of threat, a place of hurt
(13:16):
, a place of harm, a place wherewe're let down.
This becomes absolutely key andgives us yet another huge clue
and insight into what do we needto do in order to help support
a person in being able toconnect, if that's something
that they biologically need todo.
Well, we have to be able towork with our nervous systems in
order to find out what safeconnection is and start to be
(13:41):
able to move towards thatexperience of safe connection
and how to create safeconnection.
So these are the threeorganizing principles, the
hierarchy that there's threestates to our nervous system and
I don't know if I mentionedthis actually, but as I'm saying
it out loud, the hierarchymeans that there's a predictable
way that our three states move.
(14:02):
And so if you imagine a ladderwhich is a Deb Dana visual that
she offers, the top of theladder is ventral, vagal, that
safe, connected place.
The middle of the ladder isthat sympathetic, mobilized
energy, that fight or flight,and then the bottom of the
ladder is dorsal, which is thatdisconnected, collapsed,
(14:22):
withdrawn, immobilized state ofthe nervous system.
And when we say it'spredictable and we say it's a
hierarchy, if you imagine thatladder, you can't jump from the
bottom of the ladder and dorsalright up to ventral.
You actually must pass throughthe sympathetic state.
Now in depression, if you canimagine, if you're in this
depressive episode and maybeyour partner comes to you and
(14:43):
they tell you that you forgot todo something that they had
asked you to do, maybe you knowyou might stay in dorsal and you
might turn over and ignore themor not listen or just feel
hopeless and say, oh my goodness, another thing that I can't do,
another example of how I'm afailure.
That's one possible way toreact.
But you actually might.
Depending on many circumstancesand depending on neuroception.
You might actually rise up theladder into a sympathetic
(15:06):
response and maybe you getrageful or angry.
Rage energy, anxiety, energy.
Those are mobilized, there'saction, there's movement in that
kind of feeling.
And so you know, a person cango from feeling very depressed
and seeming very disconnected togoing into a rage very quickly.
The good news is that you'rekind of coming up the ladder and
I will talk more in detailabout what I have noticed and
(15:28):
experienced again prior tolearning about polyvagal theory
and now, since I have awarenessof polyvagal theory, what I have
really learned about thisprocess and what I have
experienced.
But if you move intosympathetic, you also a few more
rungs up the ladder and you canrise up again into that ventral
connected space.
Although a lot of people tend tostay sort of fluctuating
between a dorsal collapseexperience and a sympathetic
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either rageful, angry orsympathetic anxiety, anxious
experience, and so sometimespeople lose touch, it's still
there.
They're ventral connected,grounded, safe place.
Our nervous system knows thatplace it really does.
But a lot of the time certainlywhen there's something that is
affecting mental health a lot ofthe time we're disconnected
(16:11):
from that, our ventralexperience, and I know that that
was absolutely true for me.
I feel like it's only been inthe last maybe year and a half
or two now that I have been onthis incredible journey of
reconnecting with my ventralstate, and it's really a huge
part of the reason that I'm evenhere today sharing this
information with you because inthe process of me being able to
reconnect with my ventral state,it has opened up so many new
(16:32):
possibilities and my day-to-dayexperience of my depression is
so drastically different thanwhen it's ever been before that
I knew that I had to share thisinformation with other people.
So again, the hierarchy idea.
It's predictable.
You know that the nervoussystem will go through these
stages.
The other option doesn't haveto be.
You don't have to stay insurvival state to go up the
(16:53):
ladder.
But if you know thatsympathetic has energy in it,
just the idea to get out of bedfor somebody or for me a lot of
the time, like my administrativework, is something that's hard
for me to do and can feeloverwhelming and is a huge cue
of danger for me a lot of thetime.
But to do my administrativework, to sit down and do my
billing or call an insurancecompany or something like that,
that takes sympathetic energy.
(17:14):
So I have to be able to findways to be able to move up that
ladder of the nervous system andthen that lift also can help me
open up whatever software Ineed to open up to be able to
complete my task.
When I take that first steptowards completing the action.
When I sit down on my laptopand I'm like, oh yeah, look, I
did it.
It wasn't so bad, right, itdidn't kill me essentially which
sounds so silly to think aboutyou know, doing paperwork is not
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going to kill me, doingadministrative tasks is not
going to actually harm me in anyway, but it feels that way.
And then I can say, oh, look,it wasn't so bad and I feel safe
.
And then, when I'm finishedwith my task, maybe I moved all
the way up the ladder to thatventral space, to that calm,
connected, grounded space.
And so, again, it's veryhelpful to understand the
hierarchy because it canindicate what is happening in
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our behavior like, hmm, what'sgoing on here?
And also, in the words of DebDana, how to befriend our
nervous system and gain nervoussystem flexibility, which
essentially is the increasedability to move our nervous
system into the state that wewant it to be, in which most of
the time, of course, we want theventral, grounded, safe,
connected space.
(18:17):
There are blends of states thatI won't go into right now, but
just a quick word the blend ofsympathetic and ventral state is
like a playful, fun state.
It's energetic, safe, connectedgroundedness, which is a
beautiful state.
I refer to that as my flowstate.
It's one of my favorite states,actually.
But to know that hierarchygives us a lot of information on
what we can do with our nervoussystem and how we can work with
(18:39):
our nervous system to actuallycreate the lived experience that
we want to create for ourselvesand certainly the relationships
that we want to create forourselves.
So just to recap on the threeorganizing principles, there's
hierarchy, which I went into ingreater detail just now.
There's neuroception and howour nervous systems intake
information that essentially letus know if we are safe or if
(19:02):
we're in danger, and theorganizing principle of
co-regulation that our nervoussystems, in order to survive,
need to be in connection withother nervous systems, or in
other words, of course, that weneed to be in relationship to
survive.
Now, this does not necessarilymean intimate partner romantic
relationships, of course, but weneed to be in connection with
others in some sort of way.
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We need community in order totruly move beyond surviving,
certainly into thriving.
So when people come to workwith me in therapy and I explain
to them about polyvagal theory,I use two different analogies
to explain these concepts, andso I'm going to share them with
you today.
The first is an analogy I useabout how your nervous system is
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moving through those threestates every day and there's no
such thing as a bad state andthey're all necessary, they're
all working together and they'realways present all the time as
well.
It's not like you can kick outone of your states.
So I use this idea of a car andyou're the car, you're the
whole vehicle, but inside thecar you can kick out one of your
states.
So I use this idea of a car andyou're the car, you're the
whole vehicle, but inside thecar, you can imagine, are our
(20:03):
three different states, and sowe have ventral and sympathetic
and dorsal, and sometimes one ofthe states is really in the
driver's seat.
You might be leading withventral energy, which was lovely
.
If ventral is driving the car,you're probably feeling pretty
good, and even if you're feelingfrustrated or angry, you're
going to take that and be likeoh, I'm having a feeling.
That means I have a need.
(20:24):
Let me try to respond to thatin a helpful way.
So it's a good place to be ifVentral is driving.
If you're depressed, dorsal isdriving the car right and so
dorsal that collapsed, withdrawnenergy.
That's in the driver's seat.
Now you might have anexperience where sympathetic is
in the passenger seat andventral is just in the back seat
(20:44):
, so they're all really closetogether and maybe some level of
ease you might be uplifted bysome sympathetic mobilized
energy to be able to take somehelpful action that you know.
So then sympathetic kind ofjumps over into the driver's
seat and then maybe ventral isable to grab the wheel pretty
easily because you're, they'reall kind of close together.
However, sometimes one of yourstates is in the driver's seat
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and maybe both the other statesare in the back seat or even
maybe locked in the trunk.
So when I describe a severedepressive episode, I say look,
dorsal's in your driver's seatright now.
It's taking the lead, it'scalling the shots, it's
determining which way you turn,and when you look through the
windshield of out at your life,it's the lens you're looking
through and maybe it feels likeventral and sympathetic energy,
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moving energy, calm, safe energy.
Maybe they feel like they'renowhere to be found, but they're
not completely gone.
Maybe they're just in the trunkand there's ways that we can
figure out how to go back andmaybe pop the trunk open and set
them free so that they can comebe in the car and that they can
help drive sooner.
Maybe not immediately, it mighttake a little bit of time.
If a dorsal's got a hand onyour wheel, sometimes it can
(21:48):
take a little bit of time for itto loosen its grip, but it's
definitely possible.
And so the reason I use thisanalogy is because I think it's
so important to know that theyall work together, they all
exist inside of us together andthey're all taking turns based
on neuroception, really based onthe information that they're
receiving from inside the body,from outside in the environment
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and in relationship, todetermine who is the best person
to drive our car right now andfrom a survival place.
If we're perceiving danger,then it makes sense for one of
our survival states to bedriving the car.
However, sometimes what we'reperceiving as danger is not
really dangerous.
For example, a negative emotion, sometimes we feel frustrated
(22:29):
or disappointed or sad or hurt.
That becomes a cue of dangerfor many, many people, and then
we go into a survival mode,which it's not really helpful
relationally and when I sayrelationally, it's not helpful
for being in relationship withother people, but it's also not
helpful for the relationship youhave with yourself If a
survival state kicks in and isdriving your vehicle, you're
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probably not going to make veryhelpful choices, and so we
really want to start to identify.
Oh, I think the dorsal isdriving the car right now.
What do I need to do?
Because I really want to get asclose as possible to ventral
driving the car, or at least Iwant ventral, you know, in the
passenger seat so that I can,you know, have some ventral
energy near as I'm making thesedecisions about where we turn,
(23:11):
where our vehicle essentially.
So, a lot of the time I use thatanalogy of the car to talk
about the nervous systemexperience through a polyvagal
lens.
And then the other analogy thatI use when explaining polyvagal
theory is what I call threerooms, three states, and I also
alluded to this concept in thelast episode, and it is one of
(23:33):
the most important, mind-blowing, helpful, transformative
concepts that I have everlearned in my entire life, and I
share it today with you.
So when I talk about threerooms, three states, I use this
analogy to describe the ideathat our interpretation of the
world, meaning how we seeourselves, how we see others,
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how we see the greater world atlarge, our interpretations of
those things, are directlyconnected to the state our
nervous system is in.
So to explain that I talk aboutthree rooms, three states.
This is particularly true whenwe're talking about being in a
survival state of dorsal orsympathetic.
Our nervous system is movingthrough all of our states all
day long just to maintain ourbody function, and so it may not
(24:15):
feel quite as distinctlydifferent.
But when we're talking aboutsurvival states of dorsal, which
is that freeze, shut down,withdraw, hide, disappear, place
of self-protection, or we'retalking about that sympathetic,
fight or flight place ofprotection, then that's when the
three rooms, three statesconcept really applies.
So if you can imagine threedifferent rooms and each room
(24:37):
represents each of the threestates.
So for me, when I picture myeventual room, it's really
beautiful.
It's very sunny, there's bigwindows, it's painted a nice
light color.
It's probably painted for me inthis moment a nice yellow,
bright yellow is coming to mind.
It's got very comfortablefurniture.
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It's very welcoming, it's verycomforting, lots of artwork on
the walls, some beautiful greenplants.
There's a feeling of life andenergy and beauty and certainly
a place of safety.
And so my eventual room is abeautiful, beautiful place.
And if I can switch intothinking about my sympathetic
room.
My sympathetic room isdefinitely a bit darker.
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It's a mess.
It is absolutely a total mess.
I think the wall in mysympathetic room is probably
covered with post-it notes ofthings that I have to do and
there's piles of mail andpaperwork and lots of things
communicating that stuff needsto be done and I'm way behind on
doing it.
That's probably what mysympathetic room looks like in
(25:42):
this moment, and my dorsal room,if I move into that third room.
That's definitely a dark room.
Today, in this moment, I dofeel like there might be some
light coming from a crack underthe door.
I have definitely been inplaces when thinking about my
dorsal room.
It's really completely black,but today I feel like there's a
little bit of light coming inand it's really very bare.
(26:03):
There's not much furniture,maybe a, maybe a hard chair,
maybe a hardwood chairs in there.
No windows, I don't think.
Or if there's a window, it'sgot a very heavy dark curtain
covering it.
So for me again, this couldchange.
My nervous system might feeldifferently tomorrow, but in
this particular moment that's alittle taste of what my ventral,
(26:24):
sympathetic and dorsal roomslook like.
So here's the thing dependingon which room I'm in is how I'm
going to start perceiving theworld.
When I go into my eventual room,my comfy, beautiful, bright
room I bright room.
I'm like, oh yeah, like life isgreat, I'm feeling good, I'm
ready to problem solve, I cantake on my to-do list, like what
should I do now?
I'm ready to connect withpeople, I'm very available.
(26:46):
I want to reach out and make aplan with my friends.
I definitely want to hang outwith my husband, have some fun,
go do something we both enjoy.
You know the world is great,right, there's so much promise
and opportunity and everythingis wonderful.
But if something happens whileI'm moving about in the world,
when I'm in this room, andthere's a cue of danger that
sends me into a sympatheticstate, now I'm on guard.
(27:07):
Now, again, my room was reallymessy.
Clearly I had a lot of thingson my to-do list going on Now
when I'm in that place.
Ugh, my to-do list going on Nowwhen I'm in that place ugh,
like everything is going to looklike what I see in that room.
There's going to be feelings ofoverwhelm.
I'm going to be thinking thatyou know I have so much to do
and I have to just keep doing it.
I have to like push and pushand push.
(27:28):
There's no time to rest becauselook at this to-do list, I'm
never going to get through it.
Other people they either don'ttry at all, or they try and they
don't know what they're doing,or no one actually can be really
helpful, right?
And so I start to see the worldas if I'm in that room, right.
And then perhaps, if there'smore cues of danger, maybe my
to-do list is so very long thatI feel so incredibly overwhelmed
(27:50):
that I go into that dorsal roomand again, my dorsal room is
very bare and there's not a lotgoing on, very little light.
I have this hard, uncomfortablechair, and so in that place, my
nervous system moves into thatroom.
I'm going to feel everythingand see everything as if I'm in
that space.
Everything is bleak, and I'mnot even thinking about what
(28:12):
there is to do anymore.
Because I'm in this horribleplace.
I'm avoiding thinking about anyof those things that might feel
overwhelming.
I'm uncomfortable, I'mdefinitely disconnected.
There's no way out, there's noway to communicate from here,
there's no window even to lookout of right, and so the value
of thinking about these threerooms is to know that when
(28:34):
you're in one of the rooms, youmight remember what one of the
other rooms looks like.
Right, like when I'm inDorsetown, I'm like I think I
vaguely remember there was thisreally bright room that I've
been in before.
It was really beautiful, it hadlike really wonderful artwork
on the walls and it had thesebig, beautiful windows and they
had sunshine pouring in.
But, like, maybe it was a dream, I don't really know, I don't
(28:56):
know, I'm not even sure I wasreally there.
Maybe I made it up or maybe I'mlike you know what.
I know I was there, but I haveno idea how to get back there
and it really feels like it's acompletely distinctly different,
very separate place from whereyou are right now.
And so this is so importantbecause, when I realized this,
it was yet another huge ahamoment for me, because I have
(29:19):
understood, quite honestly, havefelt pretty crazy at times,
thinking I don't know why.
There's been times when I feltvery able to do an
administrative task, or with myhusband, there's been times when
I've been able to come to himwhether he's depressed or
whether he's stressed at work orwhatever he's at and be able to
come to him with a lot ofcompassion, and sometimes my
compassion is gone, right.
(29:41):
Why Yesterday, last week, amonth ago, I had all this
compassion for my husband.
Today I have none.
Why is that?
Am I crazy?
Is something wrong with me?
Does it mean that ourrelationship has gotten to a
place where it's so awful I justdon't care about it anymore?
What does all this mean?
And it can mean a lot of things.
All those are interpretationsand I might have to figure out
exactly what something reallytruly means.
(30:01):
But what I know it means andnow this is the thought I have
when I have this experience Iknow it means that my nervous
system is in a different state.
My nervous system is in adifferent room.
I am not crazy, because I wakeup on some days able to take on
responsibilities, take on myto-do list, move through my
morning with ease and joy.
(30:22):
There are days that are likethat for me, and then there's
days that it is not like thatfor me, where it's hard to get
out of bed.
Before I even open my eyes, I'mlike ugh, ugh.
Right, I don't know if you knowthat feeling, but I know that
feeling very well.
And it's not that there'ssomething wrong with me, it's
just that my nervous system isin a different state and when I
start to say, oh, I'm in adifferent room, okay, now I get
(30:42):
it, now this makes sense.
I'm seeing the world becauseI'm in this different room, and
so the whole world, myexperience of myself, my
experience of others, it feelsdifferent because I'm in a
different room right now.
Then my goal becomes how do Iget back to the room I want to
be in?
How do I change my state?
How do I get my nervous systemback, closer to that ventral
state?
(31:02):
And there's answers to thosequestions.
There's actually answers whatyou can do.
So stay tuned for much more asI talk about what you can do so
that you can move closer tobeing in that ventral room, that
beautiful room, and yourventral room and your
sympathetic room and your dorsalroom may look very, very
different than mine, and that'stotally OK, but if you can have
an idea of where you want tomove towards and I will continue
(31:25):
to support you in figuring outhow to make your way there.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments, becauseI want to thank you for showing
up today and I want to leaveyou with an invitation as you
hit stop and move back out intothe world on your own unique
wellness journey In order tomove from where you are today to
(31:47):
the place where you want to be.
The path may seem long orunclear or unknown, and I want
you to know that if that seemsscary or daunting or downright
terrifying or anything else,that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at once
.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride, and that is why
(32:10):
my invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step youvisualize, taking in your mind.
It can be a step towards actionor towards rest or connection
or self-care, or whatever stepmakes sense to you.
(32:32):
I invite you to take a steptoday because getting to a place
that feels better, more joyful,more connected than the place
where you are today is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
even when depression is in yourbed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
(32:54):
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media at trishsanderslcsw.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes and I love
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may
be interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
(33:16):
a step.
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Are you ready to hear about themissing puzzle piece that will
actually help you and yourpartner finally begin to move
past your struggles withdepression?
If so, you must check outtoday's episode, where I will
dive into an introduction ofpolyvagal theory, which explains
(00:23):
how understanding your nervoussystem will help you understand
what's happening in youreveryday life and also help you
begin to understand what you cando about it.
Starting right now, I'm yourhost, trish Sanders, and I can't
wait to share more about thiswith you.
So let's get started.
As I shared in my last episode,today I'm going to talk about
(00:46):
polyvagal theory, which, for me,has been completely
life-changing, both individuallyand how I really and can work
with my own depression and canactually help support my husband
in his depressive episodes, andit has been as close to magic,
I think, as something canpossibly get, and so I am
extremely excited to share withyou more about it today.
(01:07):
So I mentioned last time thatpolyvagal theory was developed
by Dr Stephen Porges, and itexplains how our autonomic
nervous system, particularly thevagus nerve, which runs from
our brainstem all the way downand throughout our body, and how
the nervous system is actuallyinvolved in our emotional
(01:29):
regulation and our socialengagement, which means our
ability to connect, and howactually the nervous system is
the basis for how we experienceour life.
It explains how our biologyimpacts how we move through the
world or, in the case ofdepression, how we don't move
(01:51):
through the world, how we stayfeeling stuck or immobilized,
and it's really quitefascinating.
And last time I shared how itstheory about the nervous system
supported my own livedexperience of depression,
meaning that what I discoveredabout depression through my own
living with depression over many, many years was actually
explained through the nervoussystem.
(02:12):
And so today I'm going to takea little bit more of a wider
scope sharing about whatpolyvagal theory is all about,
and I will continue to make tiesto what this means for dealing
with depression in yourself andor in your partner.
There are three organizingprinciples in polyvagal theory.
The first one is hierarchy.
Essentially, hierarchy refersto the fact that our nervous
(02:35):
system has three states, which Ireferred to in the last episode
, and we move through thesethree states all day long.
And so when we talk aboutdepression or even anxiety,
we're talking about when ournervous system sort of gets
stuck in one of these states,but actually our nervous system
is moving throughout thesedifferent states for a very
important purpose that actuallysupports our basic functioning
(02:58):
in the world.
And so these three states arethe connected, safe grounding
state that I mentioned last time, which is called ventral vagal,
and then the other two statesare survival states or
protective states.
We have the sympathetic state,which is the mobilized state of
our nervous system, and so whenwe're in survival mode, this
(03:19):
would be known as fight orflight response, that something
is happening to me, I'm feelingthreatened or in danger and I
have to react, I have to dosomething about it.
But we also really need oursympathetic nervous system to
help with our body functions,including regulating our heart
rate, our blood pressure, ourbreathing.
And then the third state iscalled our dorsal state, and it
(03:40):
is a state of disconnection, astate of shutdown.
It would also, in a survivalstate, be thought of as our
body's freeze response, but italso helps us with our digestion
and other functions in our body.
I share this because it's soimportant to understand that
there is no such thing as a badstate.
(04:01):
We need all of our states andthey support us in our
functioning day to day andunderstanding how they work
together and what's reallyhappening and how that relates
to our mental functioning andthe thoughts that we're having
and how we're connecting or notconnecting with others in the
world is really related to thisand what we can do about
problems we may be experiencingin our connecting or in our mood
(04:24):
, or in the negative thoughtsthat we're experiencing or our
diminished functioning.
Understanding how it'sconnected to our nervous system
really starts to give such clearideas about what we can do to
help us feel better.
The second organizing principleof polyvagal theory is something
called neuroception.
Essentially, it is theperception of the nervous system
(04:48):
.
The reason it has its ownseparate name is because
perception when you think aboutthat, it is how we perceive
things and it's a brain function, and when we perceive things,
we often have thoughts and wordsattached to our perception of
something, and neuroceptionactually happens below our
thinking ability.
So this is not a brain function.
This is a starting from thebrain stem, in the lower base of
(05:11):
our brains, in the back of ournecks, going down through our
neck and into our bodies.
This is actually how thenervous system communicates with
the world and it is soincredibly interesting and
important to understand howneuroception works.
Neuroception is always payingattention to what's going on,
and this makes a lot of sensebecause our bodies and brains
(05:34):
are really well equipped fordealing with danger.
The nervous system is alwayspaying attention, it's always
listening, it's always assessingAm I safe, am I in danger?
And in the words of Deb Dana,who is a clinician and
consultant who specializes inthe polyvagal theory and
(05:54):
teaching it and using it in theoffice, she talks about the
three ways that the nervoussystem gets information and she
refers to them as inside,outside and between.
So this means that the nervoussystem is always paying
attention to what's happeninginside the body.
Is there any disturbance?
Is there any pain?
Is there something that isnoteworthy that I need to pay
(06:14):
attention to, that might beindicating danger?
It's also listening outside ofthe body, in the environment,
outside of us.
Are there any cues of dangerthat I need to respond to to
keep me safe?
And then it's also lookingbetween nervous systems, which
means in relationship in thisnervous system to nervous system
communication, which I willtalk much, much more about in
(06:36):
many more episodes, I'm sure.
But in the space betweennervous systems, what cues of
danger or cues of safety am Ireceiving?
Is this a safe relationship oris there a potential threat or
danger that I'm sensing?
I will also take a moment justto note that I mentioned that
the theory was created by DrStephen Porges and he has a lot
of wonderful resources andreadings and more available that
(06:58):
really are about the theory ofpolyvagal theory and it's super
fascinating.
And then Deb Dana is a clinicalpractice of polyvagal theory,
so she's the clinician, how itapplies in the office, what it
looks like, and they both haveextraordinary material that I
highly recommend.
But just to name one, if you'reinterested in polyvagal theory
or you want to learn more, debDana's book Anchored is a
(07:20):
fantastic read.
I really think that everybodyshould read it.
I don't get paid for, I don'tget any kickbacks for anybody
reading it, but it is somethingthat I think is a transformative
read and I will include a linkto it in the notes below so you
can check it out for yourself aswell.
Another really important thingto know about neuroception is
that most of what the nervoussystem is picking up is actually
(07:43):
coming through sensory cues inthe environment or in our body,
our felt experience.
This is a bottom-up stream ofinformation, meaning the
information is coming throughthe body and being sent up to
the brain, which, in the otherdirection, we can have thoughts
which originate in the brain andwe sent up to the brain, which,
in the other direction, we canhave thoughts which originate in
the brain and we're trying totell our body, which is a top
down stream of information.
(08:04):
This is so important becauseI'll use an example actually
with children, because we see inour culture and our society
quite often a child who fallsand gets hurt on the playground
and they skin their knee and alot of the time, very loving,
supportive adults gather aroundthem and they say you're okay,
you're okay, and they're tryingto calm the child down by using
words right, this top-downapproach.
(08:25):
And the child probably is okay.
Right, they probably didn'tbreak a limb, they just need a
little band-aid, they'll be finein just a minute or two.
But in that moment, thatchild's body, from a bottom-up
stream of information, is sayingI'm in pain, I am not okay.
Right, it's not something thatcould be received necessarily
that oh, I am okay now, becausetheir body is telling them
(08:45):
they're not, they're in pain andvaluing the information that
our nervous system is gettingfrom our sensory experience is
so incredibly important becausethis also gives us really
incredible clue about how tohelp us feel better that it's
not always this idea of you know, convincing somebody that
they're okay or you know,telling somebody to relax
(09:05):
doesn't usually work, and thatis because of neuroception.
We are really listening largelyto our felt sensory experience
over words a lot of the time.
Now, just to note, the sensoryexperience gets sent to the
brain and very quickly we doattach words and stories to
neuroception.
But when we're not awarebecause neuroception happens at
(09:26):
a level below conscious thinkingwe start to believe the stories
very automatically.
And sometimes those storiesthat we tell ourselves, these
interpretations that we tellourselves about a situation that
may seem dangerous this may be,if you imagine, you know, if
you walk into the room and yourpartner is sort of in a slump on
the couch on their phone andthat might be a cue of danger
(09:48):
for you, oh, my goodness,they're depressed again.
This night's going to beterrible.
I was looking for a fun,relaxing evening and now I'm
really in for it.
All of a sudden we attach thesestories that may be inaccurate
and then we react to thosestories and that is where change
and growth and healing can comein when we start to bring
consciousness and awareness toour neuroception.
(10:11):
Ah, I'm experiencing a cue ofdanger.
I'm noticing that my nervoussystem is going into a
protective state.
Now I can start to do somethinga little bit different, which I
will talk a lot more about thatprocess in great detail, with
many examples in future episodes.
But just to know that we doattach words and stories to our
neuroception very, very quickly,and the way we can use
(10:32):
neuroception to help us grow andchange and learn is to actually
begin to bring consciousawareness to our neuroception
and start to understand whatreally is happening.
What is the cue of danger?
Is there something that'sreally threatening or is it
really reflecting something elsethat's going on that we can
actually respond to with warmthand compassion and connection,
(10:54):
rather than going into asurvival state?
And knowing that we can workwith our body and our nervous
system and our neuroception andour felt experience in order to
help us to move our nervoussystem to a feeling of safety,
it really starts to open up thepossibility of how we can
respond.
The third organizing principleof polyvagal theory is called
co-regulation, and this is abeautiful, beautiful concept
(11:20):
that can support having betterrelationships with anyone and
everyone, and it is absolutelyvital for parents, for partners,
for friends, for family members, co-workers, educators, for
everyone.
It is just such an importantthing and there is a shift in
society of beginning tounderstand the power of
(11:43):
co-regulation, but I think itreally needs to be at the
forefront of everything we do,because it is the power to
create what we want to createthe relationships we want to
have, the societies we want tohave, the communities, the
schools, the businesses, theorganizations.
It's really core to everything,and so co-regulation
essentially refers to the factthat we are biologically wired
(12:07):
to be in connection with otherpeople.
It's a biological imperative,as a matter of fact, which means
we cannot live withoutconnection, and our nervous
systems actually want to connectto other nervous systems.
And if we're unable to connectwith other nervous systems which
, in the case of depression,depression is disconnection, as
(12:30):
you've heard me talk aboutbefore, which is fully supported
by polyvagal theory If we can'tconnect because we're trying to
protect ourselves, we canreally start to emotionally
starve, so to speak, because weare longing to be in connection
and we're not able to connectand this can be absolutely
completely detrimental to thehuman experience and we can fall
(12:54):
far from living a joyful,connected, passionate, thriving,
alive life and fall intoabsolute despair when we're not
in connection with other nervoussystems, or, in other words,
when we're not havingrelationships with other people.
This becomes a problem if weexperience relationships with
others as a place of danger, aplace of threat, a place of hurt
(13:16):
, a place of harm, a place wherewe're let down.
This becomes absolutely key andgives us yet another huge clue
and insight into what do we needto do in order to help support
a person in being able toconnect, if that's something
that they biologically need todo.
Well, we have to be able towork with our nervous systems in
order to find out what safeconnection is and start to be
(13:41):
able to move towards thatexperience of safe connection
and how to create safeconnection.
So these are the threeorganizing principles, the
hierarchy that there's threestates to our nervous system and
I don't know if I mentionedthis actually, but as I'm saying
it out loud, the hierarchymeans that there's a predictable
way that our three states move.
(14:02):
And so if you imagine a ladderwhich is a Deb Dana visual that
she offers, the top of theladder is ventral, vagal, that
safe, connected place.
The middle of the ladder isthat sympathetic, mobilized
energy, that fight or flight,and then the bottom of the
ladder is dorsal, which is thatdisconnected, collapsed,
(14:22):
withdrawn, immobilized state ofthe nervous system.
And when we say it'spredictable and we say it's a
hierarchy, if you imagine thatladder, you can't jump from the
bottom of the ladder and dorsalright up to ventral.
You actually must pass throughthe sympathetic state.
Now in depression, if you canimagine, if you're in this
depressive episode and maybeyour partner comes to you and
(14:43):
they tell you that you forgot todo something that they had
asked you to do, maybe you knowyou might stay in dorsal and you
might turn over and ignore themor not listen or just feel
hopeless and say, oh my goodness, another thing that I can't do,
another example of how I'm afailure.
That's one possible way toreact.
But you actually might.
Depending on many circumstancesand depending on neuroception.
You might actually rise up theladder into a sympathetic
(15:06):
response and maybe you getrageful or angry.
Rage energy, anxiety, energy.
Those are mobilized, there'saction, there's movement in that
kind of feeling.
And so you know, a person cango from feeling very depressed
and seeming very disconnected togoing into a rage very quickly.
The good news is that you'rekind of coming up the ladder and
I will talk more in detailabout what I have noticed and
(15:28):
experienced again prior tolearning about polyvagal theory
and now, since I have awarenessof polyvagal theory, what I have
really learned about thisprocess and what I have
experienced.
But if you move intosympathetic, you also a few more
rungs up the ladder and you canrise up again into that ventral
connected space.
Although a lot of people tend tostay sort of fluctuating
between a dorsal collapseexperience and a sympathetic
(15:50):
either rageful, angry orsympathetic anxiety, anxious
experience, and so sometimespeople lose touch, it's still
there.
They're ventral connected,grounded, safe place.
Our nervous system knows thatplace it really does.
But a lot of the time certainlywhen there's something that is
affecting mental health a lot ofthe time we're disconnected
(16:11):
from that, our ventralexperience, and I know that that
was absolutely true for me.
I feel like it's only been inthe last maybe year and a half
or two now that I have been onthis incredible journey of
reconnecting with my ventralstate, and it's really a huge
part of the reason that I'm evenhere today sharing this
information with you because inthe process of me being able to
reconnect with my ventral state,it has opened up so many new
(16:32):
possibilities and my day-to-dayexperience of my depression is
so drastically different thanwhen it's ever been before that
I knew that I had to share thisinformation with other people.
So again, the hierarchy idea.
It's predictable.
You know that the nervoussystem will go through these
stages.
The other option doesn't haveto be.
You don't have to stay insurvival state to go up the
(16:53):
ladder.
But if you know thatsympathetic has energy in it,
just the idea to get out of bedfor somebody or for me a lot of
the time, like my administrativework, is something that's hard
for me to do and can feeloverwhelming and is a huge cue
of danger for me a lot of thetime.
But to do my administrativework, to sit down and do my
billing or call an insurancecompany or something like that,
that takes sympathetic energy.
(17:14):
So I have to be able to findways to be able to move up that
ladder of the nervous system andthen that lift also can help me
open up whatever software Ineed to open up to be able to
complete my task.
When I take that first steptowards completing the action.
When I sit down on my laptopand I'm like, oh yeah, look, I
did it.
It wasn't so bad, right, itdidn't kill me essentially which
sounds so silly to think aboutyou know, doing paperwork is not
(17:35):
going to kill me, doingadministrative tasks is not
going to actually harm me in anyway, but it feels that way.
And then I can say, oh, look,it wasn't so bad and I feel safe
.
And then, when I'm finishedwith my task, maybe I moved all
the way up the ladder to thatventral space, to that calm,
connected, grounded space.
And so, again, it's veryhelpful to understand the
hierarchy because it canindicate what is happening in
(17:56):
our behavior like, hmm, what'sgoing on here?
And also, in the words of DebDana, how to befriend our
nervous system and gain nervoussystem flexibility, which
essentially is the increasedability to move our nervous
system into the state that wewant it to be, in which most of
the time, of course, we want theventral, grounded, safe,
connected space.
(18:17):
There are blends of states thatI won't go into right now, but
just a quick word the blend ofsympathetic and ventral state is
like a playful, fun state.
It's energetic, safe, connectedgroundedness, which is a
beautiful state.
I refer to that as my flowstate.
It's one of my favorite states,actually.
But to know that hierarchygives us a lot of information on
what we can do with our nervoussystem and how we can work with
(18:39):
our nervous system to actuallycreate the lived experience that
we want to create for ourselvesand certainly the relationships
that we want to create forourselves.
So just to recap on the threeorganizing principles, there's
hierarchy, which I went into ingreater detail just now.
There's neuroception and howour nervous systems intake
information that essentially letus know if we are safe or if
(19:02):
we're in danger, and theorganizing principle of
co-regulation that our nervoussystems, in order to survive,
need to be in connection withother nervous systems, or in
other words, of course, that weneed to be in relationship to
survive.
Now, this does not necessarilymean intimate partner romantic
relationships, of course, but weneed to be in connection with
others in some sort of way.
(19:22):
We need community in order totruly move beyond surviving,
certainly into thriving.
So when people come to workwith me in therapy and I explain
to them about polyvagal theory,I use two different analogies
to explain these concepts, andso I'm going to share them with
you today.
The first is an analogy I useabout how your nervous system is
(19:43):
moving through those threestates every day and there's no
such thing as a bad state andthey're all necessary, they're
all working together and they'realways present all the time as
well.
It's not like you can kick outone of your states.
So I use this idea of a car andyou're the car, you're the
whole vehicle, but inside thecar you can kick out one of your
states.
So I use this idea of a car andyou're the car, you're the
whole vehicle, but inside thecar, you can imagine, are our
(20:03):
three different states, and sowe have ventral and sympathetic
and dorsal, and sometimes one ofthe states is really in the
driver's seat.
You might be leading withventral energy, which was lovely
.
If ventral is driving the car,you're probably feeling pretty
good, and even if you're feelingfrustrated or angry, you're
going to take that and be likeoh, I'm having a feeling.
That means I have a need.
(20:24):
Let me try to respond to thatin a helpful way.
So it's a good place to be ifVentral is driving.
If you're depressed, dorsal isdriving the car right and so
dorsal that collapsed, withdrawnenergy.
That's in the driver's seat.
Now you might have anexperience where sympathetic is
in the passenger seat andventral is just in the back seat
(20:44):
, so they're all really closetogether and maybe some level of
ease you might be uplifted bysome sympathetic mobilized
energy to be able to take somehelpful action that you know.
So then sympathetic kind ofjumps over into the driver's
seat and then maybe ventral isable to grab the wheel pretty
easily because you're, they'reall kind of close together.
However, sometimes one of yourstates is in the driver's seat
(21:06):
and maybe both the other statesare in the back seat or even
maybe locked in the trunk.
So when I describe a severedepressive episode, I say look,
dorsal's in your driver's seatright now.
It's taking the lead, it'scalling the shots, it's
determining which way you turn,and when you look through the
windshield of out at your life,it's the lens you're looking
through and maybe it feels likeventral and sympathetic energy,
(21:27):
moving energy, calm, safe energy.
Maybe they feel like they'renowhere to be found, but they're
not completely gone.
Maybe they're just in the trunkand there's ways that we can
figure out how to go back andmaybe pop the trunk open and set
them free so that they can comebe in the car and that they can
help drive sooner.
Maybe not immediately, it mighttake a little bit of time.
If a dorsal's got a hand onyour wheel, sometimes it can
(21:48):
take a little bit of time for itto loosen its grip, but it's
definitely possible.
And so the reason I use thisanalogy is because I think it's
so important to know that theyall work together, they all
exist inside of us together andthey're all taking turns based
on neuroception, really based onthe information that they're
receiving from inside the body,from outside in the environment
(22:09):
and in relationship, todetermine who is the best person
to drive our car right now andfrom a survival place.
If we're perceiving danger,then it makes sense for one of
our survival states to bedriving the car.
However, sometimes what we'reperceiving as danger is not
really dangerous.
For example, a negative emotion, sometimes we feel frustrated
(22:29):
or disappointed or sad or hurt.
That becomes a cue of dangerfor many, many people, and then
we go into a survival mode,which it's not really helpful
relationally and when I sayrelationally, it's not helpful
for being in relationship withother people, but it's also not
helpful for the relationship youhave with yourself If a
survival state kicks in and isdriving your vehicle, you're
(22:50):
probably not going to make veryhelpful choices, and so we
really want to start to identify.
Oh, I think the dorsal isdriving the car right now.
What do I need to do?
Because I really want to get asclose as possible to ventral
driving the car, or at least Iwant ventral, you know, in the
passenger seat so that I can,you know, have some ventral
energy near as I'm making thesedecisions about where we turn,
(23:11):
where our vehicle essentially.
So, a lot of the time I use thatanalogy of the car to talk
about the nervous systemexperience through a polyvagal
lens.
And then the other analogy thatI use when explaining polyvagal
theory is what I call threerooms, three states, and I also
alluded to this concept in thelast episode, and it is one of
(23:33):
the most important, mind-blowing, helpful, transformative
concepts that I have everlearned in my entire life, and I
share it today with you.
So when I talk about threerooms, three states, I use this
analogy to describe the ideathat our interpretation of the
world, meaning how we seeourselves, how we see others,
(23:53):
how we see the greater world atlarge, our interpretations of
those things, are directlyconnected to the state our
nervous system is in.
So to explain that I talk aboutthree rooms, three states.
This is particularly true whenwe're talking about being in a
survival state of dorsal orsympathetic.
Our nervous system is movingthrough all of our states all
day long just to maintain ourbody function, and so it may not
(24:15):
feel quite as distinctlydifferent.
But when we're talking aboutsurvival states of dorsal, which
is that freeze, shut down,withdraw, hide, disappear, place
of self-protection, or we'retalking about that sympathetic,
fight or flight place ofprotection, then that's when the
three rooms, three statesconcept really applies.
So if you can imagine threedifferent rooms and each room
(24:37):
represents each of the threestates.
So for me, when I picture myeventual room, it's really
beautiful.
It's very sunny, there's bigwindows, it's painted a nice
light color.
It's probably painted for me inthis moment a nice yellow,
bright yellow is coming to mind.
It's got very comfortablefurniture.
(24:58):
It's very welcoming, it's verycomforting, lots of artwork on
the walls, some beautiful greenplants.
There's a feeling of life andenergy and beauty and certainly
a place of safety.
And so my eventual room is abeautiful, beautiful place.
And if I can switch intothinking about my sympathetic
room.
My sympathetic room isdefinitely a bit darker.
(25:21):
It's a mess.
It is absolutely a total mess.
I think the wall in mysympathetic room is probably
covered with post-it notes ofthings that I have to do and
there's piles of mail andpaperwork and lots of things
communicating that stuff needsto be done and I'm way behind on
doing it.
That's probably what mysympathetic room looks like in
(25:42):
this moment, and my dorsal room,if I move into that third room.
That's definitely a dark room.
Today, in this moment, I dofeel like there might be some
light coming from a crack underthe door.
I have definitely been inplaces when thinking about my
dorsal room.
It's really completely black,but today I feel like there's a
little bit of light coming inand it's really very bare.
(26:03):
There's not much furniture,maybe a, maybe a hard chair,
maybe a hardwood chairs in there.
No windows, I don't think.
Or if there's a window, it'sgot a very heavy dark curtain
covering it.
So for me again, this couldchange.
My nervous system might feeldifferently tomorrow, but in
this particular moment that's alittle taste of what my ventral,
(26:24):
sympathetic and dorsal roomslook like.
So here's the thing dependingon which room I'm in is how I'm
going to start perceiving theworld.
When I go into my eventual room,my comfy, beautiful, bright
room I bright room.
I'm like, oh yeah, like life isgreat, I'm feeling good, I'm
ready to problem solve, I cantake on my to-do list, like what
should I do now?
I'm ready to connect withpeople, I'm very available.
(26:46):
I want to reach out and make aplan with my friends.
I definitely want to hang outwith my husband, have some fun,
go do something we both enjoy.
You know the world is great,right, there's so much promise
and opportunity and everythingis wonderful.
But if something happens whileI'm moving about in the world,
when I'm in this room, andthere's a cue of danger that
sends me into a sympatheticstate, now I'm on guard.
(27:07):
Now, again, my room was reallymessy.
Clearly I had a lot of thingson my to-do list going on Now
when I'm in that place.
Ugh, my to-do list going on Nowwhen I'm in that place ugh,
like everything is going to looklike what I see in that room.
There's going to be feelings ofoverwhelm.
I'm going to be thinking thatyou know I have so much to do
and I have to just keep doing it.
I have to like push and pushand push.
(27:28):
There's no time to rest becauselook at this to-do list, I'm
never going to get through it.
Other people they either don'ttry at all, or they try and they
don't know what they're doing,or no one actually can be really
helpful, right?
And so I start to see the worldas if I'm in that room, right.
And then perhaps, if there'smore cues of danger, maybe my
to-do list is so very long thatI feel so incredibly overwhelmed
(27:50):
that I go into that dorsal roomand again, my dorsal room is
very bare and there's not a lotgoing on, very little light.
I have this hard, uncomfortablechair, and so in that place, my
nervous system moves into thatroom.
I'm going to feel everythingand see everything as if I'm in
that space.
Everything is bleak, and I'mnot even thinking about what
(28:12):
there is to do anymore.
Because I'm in this horribleplace.
I'm avoiding thinking about anyof those things that might feel
overwhelming.
I'm uncomfortable, I'mdefinitely disconnected.
There's no way out, there's noway to communicate from here,
there's no window even to lookout of right, and so the value
of thinking about these threerooms is to know that when
(28:34):
you're in one of the rooms, youmight remember what one of the
other rooms looks like.
Right, like when I'm inDorsetown, I'm like I think I
vaguely remember there was thisreally bright room that I've
been in before.
It was really beautiful, it hadlike really wonderful artwork
on the walls and it had thesebig, beautiful windows and they
had sunshine pouring in.
But, like, maybe it was a dream, I don't really know, I don't
(28:56):
know, I'm not even sure I wasreally there.
Maybe I made it up or maybe I'mlike you know what.
I know I was there, but I haveno idea how to get back there
and it really feels like it's acompletely distinctly different,
very separate place from whereyou are right now.
And so this is so importantbecause, when I realized this,
it was yet another huge ahamoment for me, because I have
(29:19):
understood, quite honestly, havefelt pretty crazy at times,
thinking I don't know why.
There's been times when I feltvery able to do an
administrative task, or with myhusband, there's been times when
I've been able to come to himwhether he's depressed or
whether he's stressed at work orwhatever he's at and be able to
come to him with a lot ofcompassion, and sometimes my
compassion is gone, right.
(29:41):
Why Yesterday, last week, amonth ago, I had all this
compassion for my husband.
Today I have none.
Why is that?
Am I crazy?
Is something wrong with me?
Does it mean that ourrelationship has gotten to a
place where it's so awful I justdon't care about it anymore?
What does all this mean?
And it can mean a lot of things.
All those are interpretationsand I might have to figure out
exactly what something reallytruly means.
(30:01):
But what I know it means andnow this is the thought I have
when I have this experience Iknow it means that my nervous
system is in a different state.
My nervous system is in adifferent room.
I am not crazy, because I wakeup on some days able to take on
responsibilities, take on myto-do list, move through my
morning with ease and joy.
(30:22):
There are days that are likethat for me, and then there's
days that it is not like thatfor me, where it's hard to get
out of bed.
Before I even open my eyes, I'mlike ugh, ugh.
Right, I don't know if you knowthat feeling, but I know that
feeling very well.
And it's not that there'ssomething wrong with me, it's
just that my nervous system isin a different state and when I
start to say, oh, I'm in adifferent room, okay, now I get
(30:42):
it, now this makes sense.
I'm seeing the world becauseI'm in this different room, and
so the whole world, myexperience of myself, my
experience of others, it feelsdifferent because I'm in a
different room right now.
Then my goal becomes how do Iget back to the room I want to
be in?
How do I change my state?
How do I get my nervous systemback, closer to that ventral
state?
(31:02):
And there's answers to thosequestions.
There's actually answers whatyou can do.
So stay tuned for much more asI talk about what you can do so
that you can move closer tobeing in that ventral room, that
beautiful room, and yourventral room and your
sympathetic room and your dorsalroom may look very, very
different than mine, and that'stotally OK, but if you can have
an idea of where you want tomove towards and I will continue
(31:25):
to support you in figuring outhow to make your way there.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments, becauseI want to thank you for showing
up today and I want to leaveyou with an invitation as you
hit stop and move back out intothe world on your own unique
wellness journey In order tomove from where you are today to
(31:47):
the place where you want to be.
The path may seem long orunclear or unknown, and I want
you to know that if that seemsscary or daunting or downright
terrifying or anything else,that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at once
.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride, and that is why
(32:10):
my invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step youvisualize, taking in your mind.
It can be a step towards actionor towards rest or connection
or self-care, or whatever stepmakes sense to you.
(32:32):
I invite you to take a steptoday because getting to a place
that feels better, more joyful,more connected than the place
where you are today is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
even when depression is in yourbed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
(32:54):
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media at trishsanderslcsw.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes and I love
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may
be interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
(33:16):
a step.
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