Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_00 (00:00):
Hello, and welcome
to the When Depression is in
Your Bed podcast.
When you think of your betterlife, your better relationship,
or your better self, do youimagine fairy tale perfection or
some version of totally blissedout zen?
While choosing to live a moreconscious life may in fact
result in having more momentsthat feel like that, in reality,
(00:21):
we're human, and your day-to-daylife may not always be your
absolute happily ever after.
Yet living a more conscious lifecan in fact be pretty sweet,
especially when dealing with theconflicts that can arise pretty
frequently in our regular lives.
If you want to hear more whatthat could look like, please
stay tuned.
I'm your host, Trish Sanders,and I am delighted that you were
here.
So let's get started.
(00:41):
I just want to acknowledge thatif you've been listening to my
recent episodes, today wassupposed to be a continuation of
my conversation that I've beenhaving about rest, and I decided
to change that last minute justbecause I had an experience and
I wanted to record and talkabout it while it was still
fresh in my mind.
So I will get back to myconversation on rest next week,
(01:03):
and I will be addressingpractical ways that you can
include restful and renewingpractices into your daily lives.
So please do tune in next weekfor that conversation to
continue.
For today though, like I said, Ihad this experience and it was
so profound for me that I reallyneed to share about this because
for me it was such an example ofthe work that I've done and what
(01:27):
I now get to experience, likewhat my conscious life looks
like in such a different waythan it used to look.
And as I mentioned in the intro,my everyday life is not a fairy
tale.
Although I have to tell you, Ireally truly find so many more
moments happening for me where Iliterally pause and I look
around and I think to myself,wow, this is my life.
(01:48):
This is the life that I get tolive, and this is the life that
I've created for myself.
And sometimes I even say it outloud, depending where I am or
who I'm with.
Like when I was in Sedona, whichwas a big moment, and I was just
standing in the awesomeness ofthe beautiful Sedona Red Rocks,
and I was like, wow, I get to behere.
This is my life.
So that was a pretty big momentthat was pretty awesome.
(02:09):
But I have those moments ofpause and appreciation and
gratitude more and more.
Like over the summer, when I wassitting poolside at the town
pool, watching both my13-year-old and my six-year-old
try the town swim team for thefirst time, and just getting to
sit there and watch them andexperience them and support them
in this new endeavor was amoment like that for me.
(02:29):
And then even in tiny, tinylittle micro moments, when I get
out of the car going to thegrocery store, and I can close
my eyes and just for a briefsecond feel the end of summer or
beginning of fall sun on myface, I can have those moments
like, wow, I have a life where Iget this.
I get to appreciate thesebeautiful moments, big and
small.
So I do want to say that, youknow, if there was an
(02:52):
advertisement for living aconscious life, I would
absolutely say you will get somany more moments where there's
gratitude and joy and bliss.
And of course, that's a reallygood reason to make choices to
shift and move into living amore conscious life.
However, we are humans andhumans are imperfect and we are
never going to be happyconstantly.
(03:13):
That's not how we're designed.
And it also wouldn't really begood for us because we have
feelings as signals.
So we know we have a need thatneeds to be met when we're not
feeling happy.
And so, in order to be happyconstantly, I think maybe we
would have to have no needs orto have a way of having our
needs met constantly, which isjust not realistic for anybody.
And so the process of beingconscious is to be able to tune
(03:37):
into what's happening in yourbody, in your heart, in your
mind, in your soul in any givenmoment and figure out what the
needs are or the unmet needs,what is causing this feeling of
upset or anger or hurt or rageor sadness or anything, right?
And so I think that in thesemoments where conflict arises
and hardship comes up, I noticethat I'm responding to them
(03:59):
differently or experiencing themdifferently.
Or a lot of the time, one of thebig things that I notice is that
even though the moment is stillpretty hard, I have a lot more
awareness of what's going on,what my unmet need is, what's
underneath it, or at least I canget to that awareness much more
quickly and I can make a repairmuch more quickly.
And sometimes that repair isreally with myself because
sometimes I could still bepretty mean to myself.
(04:20):
And historically I have beenvery, very unkind to myself in
the messages that I send, theself-talk, especially as a
dorsal dweller, someone wholives so frequently in that
amobilized, withdrawn, avoidant,closed, collapsed part of my
nervous system, which is whenyou're stuck in there,
depression.
In other words, I have had a lotof negative self-talk because
when your nervous system is inthat place, you see the world
(04:41):
through that lens.
I've talked about it before,depression goggles.
And when you have on depressiongoggles, the outside world looks
pretty bleak.
But when you look at yourself,when you look in the mirror, you
also look pretty bleak andpretty negative.
And so I've talked myself inpretty awful ways over the
years.
Uh, and I still sometimes fallinto that.
And I'll tell you a little bitabout that today because this
was definitely part of myexperience just last week.
But my whole relationship tothat is different, and I can
(05:03):
make a repair with myself andmove into a different state of
being with myself.
And then I also can make repairsmuch more quickly with my
husband, which is what thisstory is about, and also with my
kids, which I'm sure I'll sharestories in the future as well.
So without further ado, I'lljump into my story.
So just a little background myson is about to turn 14 and he
decided he didn't want to have abirthday party, but we talked
(05:25):
about what we wanted to do tocelebrate, and we decided to go
on this weekend trip and bring afriend.
And he was really excited aboutit.
I told him that we would get himand his friend their own hotel
room that would be connecting toours, and they could have snacks
and play video games and kind ofhang out.
And we were also going to dothis activity for the day that
we needed tickets for.
And he was super excited aboutit.
And I was like, yes, this isawesome.
(05:45):
We have a great plan.
And for whatever reason, part ofit was my own ADHD brain, and
part of it was also because Igot sick.
And when I went on to buy thetickets, they were sold out.
But we found another option thatwas an excellent second choice.
And when I went on to buy thosetickets, they were available for
the date that we wanted to go.
However, like I said, because ofall of those reasons that I just
(06:07):
mentioned, and maybe somereasons I don't even totally
understand or have totalawareness of, I didn't buy the
tickets as soon as I realizedthey were available.
I probably just got distractedin the moment or I was tired
because usually I'm doing thingsat 10 or 11 o'clock at night
before I go to bed.
And I probably just said, Oh,I'll buy them tomorrow.
And then, like I said, I endedup getting sick for several
days.
And when I finally felt better,I was like, okay, let me jump
(06:28):
back on and grab those tickets.
Now we're going into the storyof the night where I got really
dysregulated and it was a reallyhard experience for me.
So I go on to buy these tickets,and now this second choice is
sold out.
I even talking about it can likefeel just like a wave of heat in
my body now.
I don't have the rage anymore,but in that moment, my whole
(06:49):
body was flooded with thisoverwhelming rage.
And the trigger was definitelyand clearly, even in the moment,
that I felt like I had let myson down.
He was so excited to do what wewere doing.
And I really felt excited to beable to provide this experience
that my son was excited about.
And to think that I was notgoing to be able to provide that
(07:11):
for him was crushing for me inthat moment.
And the rage flooded, and it wasso quick.
And what was so interesting forme is that I was so intensely
dysregulated.
However, I wasn't at theabsolute furthest end of the
spectrum.
And what I mean by that is whenI talk about our nervous system,
we only have three states.
We have ventral, which is oursafe enough, grounded, often
(07:33):
calm, but regulated place.
And we can have any feeling fromthat place.
But oftentimes when weexperience a big hard feeling
because of our old experiences,often in childhood, we go into
one of our two protective statesof our nervous system, either
sympathetic fight or flight,which is what I went into in
this experience, or as Imentioned earlier, that dorsal,
immobilized, shut down,collapsed state.
(07:55):
And so we only have threestates.
However, we can have blendedstates, which is sort of what
I'm talking about today, that Ihad such a strong sympathetic
fight or flight charge.
However, there was still just alittle, little tiny bit, like
just a little drip, or I feltlike it was a little thread of
ventral energy connecting me tothat grounded place.
So I didn't totally lose it.
(08:15):
I felt pretty intensely, I haveto be honest with you.
But the whole time it was like Iwas having two experiences.
One of this really intense rage,which was first directed at
myself and then also directed atmy husband.
But I'll tell you more aboutthat in a second.
But then I also was able to havethis kind of like ongoing
narrative from this ventralspace, I'll kind of walk you
through it.
It was like a bit of a blend.
(08:36):
It was like a sympathetic andventral, just a little tiny bit
of ventral, but it was still ablended state.
Also, within each of our states,we have a spectrum or a
continuum.
And so if you imagine the fightor flight state, a little bit of
fight or flight energy withregulation might not feel like
fight or flight energy at all.
Maybe in the most regulatedform, some ventral and
sympathetic energy togethermight be what I call a flow
(08:58):
state.
Like, oh, I'm just gettingthings done.
I have energy to make thingshappen and I don't feel
overwhelmed or chaotic.
But as you go more and more intothat sympathetic continuum, you
get less and less of thatventral grounding and you start
to experience perhaps moreoverwhelm or feeling chaotic or
going into anxiety and thenmaybe anger and frustration all
the way into rage, that realintense fight or flight energy.
(09:19):
So I was definitely in thehigher end.
But again, like I said, therewas still like this thread of
ventral energy for me.
And having that, I was able tokind of narrate my experience to
myself through that ventrallens.
So let me explain.
So again, I realized that Ididn't get tickets.
The amount of rage was sointense and immediately inwardly
to myself, I'm like, oh my gosh,I have failed my son.
(09:41):
We had such a good idea for hisbirthday, and he was feeling
excited about it, which, if youknow, 13-year-old boys, it's not
always easy, at least for myson, to get them excited about
something.
And he was so excited about thisplan.
So I had this like heartbrokenfeeling that I let him down,
which then very quickly pairedwith that rage experience of
like I was this horrible parent.
And then just as quickly, I hadthis surge of blame energy
(10:04):
towards my husband, which Ididn't say anything to him.
This was all internal, like itwas his fault that we didn't get
the tickets.
In my head, I was like, he wastired the night I wanted to buy
the tickets, and that's why wedidn't buy them.
And if he wasn't tired, we wouldhave sat down to buy the
tickets.
And I had this whole narrativeabout how who cares if we're
tired, we need to get stuffdone.
And this is an example why if wedon't do what we have to do,
even when we're exhausted atnight, then horrible things
(10:24):
happen.
So I had this super intensestory going and I had this
ventral narration going on,saying, like, okay, you're
really dysregulated right now,Trish.
You're not really a horribleparent, and it's really not
Ben's fault.
And yet, this is where you areright now.
And so I was able to say,because I had just this thread
of ventral energy, I was able tosay to my husband, Ben, I am
feeling so angry anddysregulated right now that I
(10:47):
didn't buy the tickets.
I actually can't talk to youright now because whatever I say
will be very unhelpful.
So I'm just gonna go to sleepbecause I have to come back to
this tomorrow.
I can't think clearly right now.
So that is evidence that therewas some ventral energy present
because I was able to actuallysay that out loud, even though
in my head I was going all overthe place.
And my husband responded withreally a beautiful, ventral,
(11:09):
very grounded response, whichwas something to the effect of
like, oh, well, you know, we'lljust figure out something else
and we'll just get those ticketsthat are released later.
Uh, I'm sure it'll all work outand everything will be fine.
And many times that would havebeen a lovely response.
But in my very charged,sympathetic fight or flight
place that I was in, I reallydidn't want to hear anything
about that.
(11:29):
Yet I did have this littleventral narrator saying, you
know, he's probably right.
It's probably gonna be fine.
But I didn't want to hear itright now.
That's not where I was at.
So I went upstairs to my roomand I shut the door and I did a
couple things.
I sent like an email orsomething, and I was sitting
there filled with all of thissympathetic charged energy,
which is mobilized energy, islike do something.
It's fight or flight.
(11:50):
You want to attack or you wantto run.
So sitting in my bed, I wasn'tfeeling very restful.
I wasn't quite ready to go tobed, even though my body was
tired.
But I was filled with all ofthis adrenaline from this
incredible rage response that Iwas having and this
dysregulation that was occurringin my nervous system and in my
body.
And then I was sitting therewith these dysregulated stories,
and I was, again, aware of thissympathetic story.
(12:10):
And I was like, oh, Ben shouldhave come and followed me in
here if he really cared aboutme.
And then, of course, itexpanded.
Like if he really cared about meand our son, he would totally
come in here and make it right.
And then I still had thisventral narrator saying, Well,
you told him that talking to youwould end badly, and you told
him that you needed to restbecause you were so angry and
you needed a break, and you cameupstairs telling him basically
(12:33):
not to follow you.
So if you really wanted him tofollow you, you probably should
have told him that you wanted totalk, or you can go downstairs
and tell him now that you wantto talk.
I was having this like internaldialogue, and my sympathetic
fight or flight ragey part waslike, absolutely not.
I am not ready to go talk to himright now.
And then my ventral narrator waslike, Well, then it's probably a
good idea that you're stilltaking a break, right?
(12:54):
And it was this really bizarreexperience.
I've never quite had such, Idon't know, like such a
real-time prolonged experiencebecause I was so angry that we
let down our son.
Honestly, most of my reallystrong feelings these days do
come from parenting things, likewhen I feel like I've let down
my kids in some way or I haven'tbeen the mom that I want to be,
(13:14):
the mom that I think that mykids deserve, that I want to be
for them, I can very quickly gointo I failed, I'm a failure,
I'm awful.
And that's probably like one ofthe most slippery slopes for me.
A lot of other things I canrespond to with less intensity,
but when it comes to my kids,again, not what they're doing
that I react to them that way,but like when I feel like I've
let them down as a parent, orwith my husband, if I feel he's
(13:37):
done something that has anegative impact on my kids,
that's also tends to be a bigtrigger for me.
So I was having this reallyintense experience about all of
this.
And yet the whole time I had,like I said, what I'm calling
this ventral narrator that waskind of like giving me a
different perspective, eventhough I wasn't ready to hear
it.
Just like when Ben said, thisvery ventral response of, Oh,
yeah, we'll just get the ticketsthat are released closer to the
(13:57):
date.
I didn't want to hear it.
That's not where I was at.
So I did eventually settle down.
And the next morning I still hadjust a little flavor of like, I
don't want to talk to him.
I'm still mad at him.
And then that night I said tohim, Okay, I'd like to have a
dialogue about what happenedlast night, if you're open to
it.
And he said, Yeah, sure, whichwas wonderful.
And so I was able to tell him,so this is what happened last
night.
(14:17):
I noticed I had this reactionwhen we didn't get the tickets
and I felt like we let down ourson, and he was so excited about
his birthday plan.
And I felt like I let him down.
I have very strong reactionswhen I feel like I've let down
our kids, or I can have a verystrong reaction when something
happens that I interpret in thatway.
And I was able to tell him I wastelling myself all these
(14:37):
dysregulated stories that I knewin the moment weren't accurate,
but I believed them and I feltlike they were true.
And I told my story I wastelling myself was that it was
your fault, and I was totallyblaming you, and I was so angry.
And then when I came in theroom, I wanted you to come in
and I was so mad that you didn'tfollow me.
Yet I also was aware that I toldyou that I needed a break and
that I wasn't really going to behelpful in any kind of
(14:58):
communication.
So I totally understood why youdidn't follow me.
And I just kind of laid it allout on the table for him, and he
totally was able to hear it all.
And I did also say to him, Ialso was aware that you were
probably right that everythingwould work out one way or
another, but I just wasn't readyto hear it.
And then he shared hisexperience and he said, Oh my
gosh, I actually thought youwent upstairs and went to sleep.
(15:19):
If I realized that you wereawake still, I would have come
up, which in that moment reallyI have to say landed in a very
caring way for me.
Not that he should have known,but for him to say that if he
knew that I was awake, he wouldhave come to me.
Because for us, that's a veryold story.
And I can remember going back 20years in our early relationship
when we would have an argumentand I would be awake, upset, and
(15:40):
he would go to sleep.
And I could go back into mychildhood experience, I'm sure,
as well, and pick up even anearlier thread.
But just with Ben to know thatwe're at a place where he's
like, oh no, like I wasn'tignoring you that you were
upset.
I just really thought you weresleeping.
Like he didn't realize that Iwas upstairs in our bedroom,
awake and angry.
But to hear that he would havebeen there for me was really,
really beautiful.
(16:01):
And I also was able to tell him,and this was such a cool
experience for me to have, but Iwas able to tell him that when I
initially said to him we didn'tget the tickets, and he
responded from that reallygrounded place, that felt more
dysregulating for me.
Like I wanted him to sort ofjoin in my frustration about all
this, not in the self-blame,either blaming me or him blaming
himself, but being able to belike, yeah, that sucks that we
(16:23):
didn't get the tickets.
I just needed a little bit moreenergy.
And when I say that it was areally great experience for me
to have, what I mean is thatsometimes either this happens
with Ben, and it also happenswith my son, who's almost 14.
And it also happens occasionallywith my daughter, who's six.
But when they are in a state ofsympathetic dysregulation, they
have some of that charge, someof that energy with them going
(16:45):
on in their nervous systems, intheir bodies.
I sometimes come to them toogrounded, I think.
Not all the time.
I certainly can get dysregulatedtoo, but sometimes I come from
this very grounded place and itdoesn't land well for them,
particularly with my husband andmy son.
And being on the other side,being the dysregulated,
(17:06):
sympathetically charged personand having been come to me with
that grounded, regulated energyand me being like, no, like
that's not what I want.
Like, join me in some of thisrage.
And again, not exactly the samelevel of rage, but having some
of that, a little bit of thatfrustration actually would have
felt more connecting for me.
And that was a really coolexperience.
Cause like I said, I'm often onthe other side and learning that
(17:27):
perhaps joining people, and Iknow this intellectually as a
therapist, but living it wasreally cool because it's
important to match somebodywhere their energy is at, where
their nervous system is at.
It was a learning for me, anexperiential learning of what
that's like, and needing someoneto meet me with a little bit
more energy.
I didn't really want thegrounding in that exact moment.
(17:48):
And maybe if he had been able tomeet me with that energy,
perhaps I would have been ableto feel connected and maybe we
would have gotten more groundedmore quickly together.
I don't know.
But I also wasn't able tocommunicate to him in that
moment that that's what Ineeded.
But I was the next evening ableto tell him.
And so he said, Oh, you couldhave told me that.
I could have gotten on boardwith that.
I could have gotten annoyed thatwe didn't get the tickets too.
And I said, Oh, well, thanks.
(18:09):
And the next time I will try tolet you know, right?
Maybe I could have said, I don'treally need regulated grounding
right now.
Can you like join me in myfrustration a little bit?
And maybe that would have beenhelpful.
And so maybe next time thathappens, I'll be able to
communicate that to him a littlebit better.
And he can join me in a way thatfeels more connecting because,
like I said, he didn't know andhe couldn't have known.
And it's not his responsibilityto know what I haven't
(18:31):
communicated to him.
He doesn't have to guess orfigure it out on his own.
That's really not veryrealistic.
And it was a learning experiencefor both of us about how we
could handle situations likethis differently in the future.
In closing, while amazingmoments like being in Sedona or
feeling the sun shine on my faceare really treasured moments,
and I do try to consciouslynotice and name those moments
(18:53):
and savor them and really feelthe gratitude that I have for
them.
It is also in moments ofconflict and hardship when I'm
having some big feelings, mynervous system is dysregulated,
I'm in this self-protective modethat I also want to notice and
name that that's what'shappening.
And I also want to savor withdeep gratitude the experience of
(19:14):
how far I've come and how muchwork I have done to be able to
experience myself and my worldin such a different way and be
able to make repairs so muchmore quickly and really learn
from the conflicts instead ofjust getting stuck in the
conflicts and prolonging them,which is certainly what I used
to do and what Ben and Itogether used to do for a long
time for many, many years.
(19:35):
So even if living a consciouslife isn't always totally a
storybook fantasy, I do thinkthat even and maybe especially
in those moments of conflict,choosing to live a more
conscious life is pretty awesomeand extraordinary in its own
way.
As our time comes to a close, Iask you to keep listening for
just a few more moments becauseI want to thank you for showing
(19:57):
up today.
And I want to leave you with aninvitation as you hit stop and
move back out into the world onyour own unique wellness
journey.
In order to move from where youare today to the place where you
want to be, the path may seemlong or unclear or unknown.
And I want you to know that ifthat seems scary or daunting or
(20:18):
downright terrifying or anythingelse, that is totally okay.
Know that you do not have tocreate the whole way all at
once.
We don't travel a whole journeyin one stride.
And that is why my invitation toyou today is to take a step,
just one.
Any type, any size, in anydirection.
(20:38):
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
it could be a step you visualizetaking in your mind.
It can be a step towards actionor towards rest or connection or
self-care or whatever step makessense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday because getting to a place
that feels better, more joyful,more connected than the place
(21:00):
where you are today is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
even when depression is in yourbed.
If today's episode resonatedwith you, please subscribe so
you can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
I encourage you to leave areview and reach out to me on
social media attrish.sanders.lcsw.
(21:21):
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes, and I love
hearing from you.
Also, please share this podcastwith anyone who you think may be
interested or who may getsomething from what I have
shared.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take a
step.