February 26, 2025 • 29 mins
Talking about depression can often lead to what feels like a dead-end, a place in which we understand that someone feels bad, but not necessarily what can be done to help. This may lead to feelings of isolation, frustration, hopelessness and more. But what can be possible if we reframe the conversation and increase awareness of what is truly happening in the experience of depression? Join host, Trish Sanders, as she navigates the profound connection between depression and our nervous system. In this episode, she delves into polyvagal theory—a groundbreaking framework that reveals how our emotional responses are rooted in our body’s autonomic states.
Knowing that the disconnection that is a hallmark of depression is actually manifested as a protective nervous system response opens up new avenues for healing and self-compassion. Trish shares personal insights and practical strategies to gently nurture ourselves as we shift from immobilization and collapse to safety and connection.
Expect to learn about the three main states of our nervous system and how they influence our experience of depression. Embrace the idea that it’s okay to take small steps toward healing; every effort counts on the path to reclaiming joy and connection. If your nervous system is feeling a little frazzled, this episode provides a supportive perspective that is both empowering and compassionate.
- If you are looking to take the first step towards improving your connection and communication with your partner, check out this FREE monthly webinar on "Becoming a Conscious Couple,".
- If you and your partner are ready to co-create the roadmap to the relationship of your dreams, join us for the next in-person "Getting the Love You Want" Weekend Couples Retreat!
For support in how to have deeper connections and better communication in the relationships that matter most in your life, follow the host, Trish Sanders on Instagram , Bluesky or LinkedIn.
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
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Speaker 1 (00:02):
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Are you or your partner, orperhaps both of you, struggling
with depression?
Are you feeling frustrated,hopeless or even ashamed,
because you just can't seem tofigure out how to improve your
life or your relationship?
Well, if so, keep listening,because in today's episode, I
(00:22):
will begin to explore aperspective on depression that
you likely haven't heard aboutbefore, and this perspective can
change everything.
By truly understanding themind-body experience of
depression and, specifically,the vital role of the nervous
system, a path towards healingand growing through the
(00:44):
suffering, a path towards themore joyful, more connected life
and relationship you want tohave, begins to emerge.
I'm your host, trish Sanders,and I can't wait to begin to
share all of this with you.
Let's get started.
In the last episode, which wascalled Beyond Diagnosis
(01:06):
Understanding Depression, Ibegan to move past the
diagnostic criteria or thesymptoms that are used to
diagnose clinical depressioninto the way that I have come to
understand depression throughmy own experience, and what I am
going to share today is how,the ways that I have come to
(01:27):
understand depression over thelast 30 plus years is actually
connected to our nervous system,which I knew, of course, for
many, many years.
There's a mind-body connection,but it was only in the last few
years that I became aware ofpolyvagal theory, and this was a
life changing discovery for me,because I started to understand
(01:51):
what was truly happening in mybody experience and how it was
connected to the experience Ihad of depression.
And the best thing aboutknowing this was that it gave me
an even clearer understandingof what I could do when I was
feeling depressed, and I'm soexcited to begin to share this
information with you today.
(02:12):
I am intentionally doing this alittle bit backwards, because
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about polyvagal theory today
, but focus on how the nervoussystem connects to the
experiences of depression that Ishared in my last episode, and
then in the next episode I willexplain polyvagal theory a
little bit more comprehensivelyToday.
(02:34):
Just to begin our discussion.
Polyvagal theory is aneurophysiological model which
basically just means that it isa study of how the nervous
system works, and it was createdby Dr Stephen Porges.
Essentially, it explains howour autonomic nervous system,
particularly the vagus nerve.
Polyvagal means the threestates that our nervous system
(02:56):
can be in, and one, essentially,is a state of safety and the
other two are states of survivalor defense.
So when we're feeling groundedand safe, then we are in what's
called ventral vagal, and I'lltalk more about that in the next
episode.
But when we feel threatened andthis can be a physical threat
or an emotional threat we can gointo a survival response, which
(03:18):
, of course, is very helpful.
If you're driving a car on thehighway and someone goes to cut
you off, it's excellent that wehave a very fast acting survival
response that, before our eyeseven register, that vehicle is
next to us.
We might not even be able tosay what color the car was or
what the model or make of a carwas, but our nervous system
(03:39):
actually can process veryquickly that we are in danger
and we need to take action, andso we might turn the wheel very
quickly to change lanes or wemight jam on the brakes In this
example.
That's an excellent function ofhow our nervous system works
with our brain to keep us safe.
In this example, this ismobilized response to threat,
which means that I am perceivinga threat and I have to do
(04:00):
something about it.
We take action in order toprotect ourselves from threat,
and this is called oursympathetic state, our fight or
flight response.
I will also talk more about thesympathetic state in my next
episode, but for today, what Iwant to start to really dive
into is the third state of ournervous system.
Our third state is animmobilized response to threat.
(04:24):
Third state is an immobilizedresponse to threat.
Essentially, it is my nervoussystem is picking up cues of
danger and I feel powerless todo anything about it.
Perhaps it feels toooverwhelming or I don't have the
resources, maybe I'm too tiredor I don't know what to do
something like that, and so wego into a shutdown.
And I will talk more about thevalue of these immobilized
(04:48):
responses another time, butagain, today I want to focus
specifically on how the nervoussystem connects to how I have
come to really understanddepression, because I find it
very helpful in beginning tounderstand what can I do when I
feel depressed, because now Ihave this new way of thinking,
this new language, what can I dowhen my nervous system is in
(05:09):
this state?
And so I really want to focuson that today, even though
there's a wealth of reallyvaluable information that I will
definitely share with you as wemove through podcast episodes.
So this immobilized response tothreat is called dorsal vagal.
The dorsal vagal state serves avery important purpose, and
when we don't have the resourcesto fight or run, we can go into
(05:32):
shutdown and be in arestorative state.
However, when people talk aboutclinical depression,
essentially what is happening isthat their nervous system is
more or less stuck in a dorsalstate, more or less stuck in
this immobilized, defensive,protective state, and so I want
(05:52):
to cover the three components ofhow I have come to understand
depression that I discussed inthe last episode and explain how
they are connected to ournervous system, which I have
only relatively recently beganto explore through Dr Porges'
polyvagal theory.
So the first thing that Ishared in the last episode was
(06:13):
that I have come to simplydefine depression as
disconnection.
What this means, through apolyvagal lens or through a
nervous system lens, is thatwhen our nervous system feels
threatened and we feel powerlessor helpless, or we don't have
the energy or resources to fightor run from a threat, we do
(06:34):
disconnect.
It is not a healthy, helpfulresponse to threat to connect.
We don't want to be close, wedon't want to reach out to
something that's potentiallythreatening us.
We want to either attack it orrun from it or disappear, be
invisible.
Essentially, it doesn't reallymake sense to reach out in
(06:58):
connection when we're trying toprotect ourselves.
Protection is a very me firstway of thinking and way of
acting and this isextraordinarily important.
When our body is in a survivalstate, we are not able to
connect.
We are only able to connectwhen our nervous system is in
that grounded, safe state ofventral that I will talk about
next time.
(07:18):
Depression is disconnection isthe ultimate self-protection and
to understand the function ofthe nervous system, that we are
not disconnecting becausethere's something wrong with us.
We are not disconnectingbecause we're actually not
capable or not good enough orpowerless.
(07:39):
We're not hopeless.
It's not that we absolutelycan't handle life, it's just
that in this moment our nervoussystem is trying to protect us
and so we are disconnected andwe are withdrawn.
We're trying to be invisible,trying to disappear, to try to
keep ourselves safe.
As I talk more about polyvagaltheory and more about depression
(08:00):
through this lens, I find it tobe such a relieving breath of
fresh air.
It is so completely shame free.
There is so much stigmaattached to someone who is
depressed that they should justpick themselves up by their
bootstraps and push and justmake themselves feel better if
they just do something, get outof bed, just take action.
(08:24):
And while these are helpfulideas, when your nervous system
is trying to protect itself,it's not easy to just do
something.
If your experience is, I canonly be safe or I can only
survive if I withdraw ordisappear or I'm invisible, or
if I have to disconnect in orderto stay alive, it wouldn't
really be a very good defensesystem if it was easily changed.
(08:48):
Defenses need to be rigid, theyneed to be firm, so it's not
such an easy switch to say, okay, well, I'm feeling disconnected
because this is what's going tohelp me survive.
Oh, I should just connect now,I'm okay.
It's not quite like that.
If getting out of bed is a cueof danger to somebody, then
they're going to stay in bedbecause the feeling is I don't
(09:10):
have the energy to get out ofbed and getting out of bed is
dangerous and I might die.
And so it makes a lot of sensethat we would really hold on to
and stay very connected to ourdisconnection.
Again, I will talk a lot moreabout this and what this means
and how we can move to find safeconnection.
But to know that depression isdisconnection is explained
(09:31):
through the nervous systemexperience that we are hiding to
keep ourselves safe.
There's really nothing wrongwith us at all.
The problem comes in when weare unable to bring our nervous
system back into a state ofsafety and groundedness and
connection.
And for many of us, we had anexperience earlier in our lives
(09:54):
in which our nervous systemlearned that being disconnected,
that being invisible, thathiding, that withdrawing, that
being small was actually the wayto keep us safe.
Our nervous system took thatlearning into our teenage and
adult lives and if you can startto understand that our body was
(10:14):
really being very functionaland working in a way to protect
us and actually shift to a placeof gratitude like wow, my body
was just protecting me.
I'm so grateful for that.
Isn't that wonderful that mynervous system and my brain are
hardwired to keep me safe?
When I was a little kid and Ididn't have a lot of resources
or choice perhaps because kidsdon't really have choice a lot
(10:38):
in our society they're told whatto do, when to do it.
There's parents and there'steachers and there's family
members and there's all sorts ofpeople telling kids what to do,
so their choices are reallylimited and so our nervous
system and our brain really cometo our rescue when we're young.
But if we had that experiencevery often, that being in that
dorsal state, that immobilizedstate, it is safer to do nothing
(10:59):
than to try to take action.
If that's the lesson that wehave learned, then we are going
to, in our adulthood, reallystay committed to that.
Well, this is the way that Ifind safety.
I disconnect, I play small, Iwill avoid danger by being in a
dorsal state.
For me, this was an incredibleaha moment, like, oh okay.
(11:20):
Well, this is why depressionfeels like disconnection.
It's not safe to connect tomyself, or it's not safe to
connect to anyone else, or it'snot safe to connect to the
larger world.
Now, the second piece of myunderstanding of depression that
I shared in the last episodewas what I call depression
goggles.
It is the experience that Icame to understand that when I
(11:40):
was looking at myself or othersor the world, when I felt
depressed, it was very differentthan when I didn't feel
depressed.
When I'm depressed and I thinkof myself, I often think things
like I'm worthless and I'mincapable and I am not deserving
of happiness, and a lot of verynegative things, certainly
(12:00):
hopeless and I'm powerless.
These are some thoughts whenI'm depressed I believe are
absolute truths, and aboutothers, people don't care about
me, no one's really there for me, I'm not really important to
anyone, and the world, the world, is often just so overwhelming
it's not really even worthtrying.
Those are some of the thoughtsfor myself when I'm wearing my
(12:21):
depression goggles, when I'm ina depressive state.
That's some of what I see,that's the lens that I look
through and how things appear tome.
And, like I said, I have calledthat depression goggles.
Through polyvagal theory, I havelearned that the
interpretations, the stories wetell ourselves about ourselves
and others and the world aredirectly connected to the state
(12:43):
of our nervous system.
I will expand upon this idea infuture episodes, but the short
version is that when we're inour eventual state, which is
that safe, calm, connected place, we will experience ourselves
as kind, loving, able to learn,able to make mistakes, able to
try again after making a mistake.
(13:05):
Other people are helpful,trying their best, available for
us, kind, loving, the world isfull of opportunity, that kind
of thing.
When we are in a sympatheticstate, that fight or flight,
mobilized, response to threatstate, we might feel that we
have to do everything, we haveto take on all the
responsibilities.
If we don't do it ourselves, itwon't get done, and other
(13:28):
people are always out to get us,trying to give us a hard time.
They don't know what to do.
No one comes through for us andthe world seems very dangerous.
There's a lot of problems, a lotof fires, one thing after
another that we have to takecare of, and then we're in that
dorsal place, that immobilized,shut down, disconnected place.
We think these thoughts thatreally are surrounded around
(13:50):
powerlessness and hopelessness,and so it makes complete sense
that when we're in that place,that thoughts of death and
suicide come and are attached tothe state of our nervous system
.
So here is, if not the mostvaluable, one of the most
valuable things that I havelearned in the past several
(14:13):
years that has created a hugeshift in how I've been able to
respond to my own depression andmy husband's depressive
episodes, that we don't have toget stuck in the stories,
because they're justinterpretations that are linked
to our nervous system state.
What is a much more helpfulfocus for us is to change our
(14:36):
nervous system state and, all ofa sudden, instead of trying to
convince yourself that, no,you're really a very capable
person and you absolutely canget out of bed and brush your
teeth, or you absolutely cancomplete this project on time,
or you absolutely can get up anddo this public speaking thing,
or you're actually a really goodparent which, when you're in a
(14:57):
depressed state, you can tellyourself those things till
you're blue in the face.
But realistically, most of thetime those things won't work.
And this is also a reason why,although I am a fan of
affirmations in certain casespositive affirmations when
you're in a very depressed stateyou don't believe those
affirmations because yournervous system is saying nope,
(15:19):
they don't feel like your truthin that moment and so you
discount them.
Your nervous system feels likeyou're lying to it, which in and
of itself can be a cue ofdanger, like nah, this isn't
true, I'm not really capable,you're trying to get one over on
me and you dig in further to adepressive state.
So depression can really feeditself.
Because the more you can try topush yourself to move out of
(15:40):
depression, the more yournervous system might hold on to
what feels like safety, thatshutdown, that powerlessness,
that immobilized state, that notdoing anything right.
If you remember, if we takefrom our childhood, it was safer
to not do something than totake action, then we're not
going to easily move into anactive state.
And so the idea that we don'thave to convince ourselves of a
(16:03):
new story because I laugh,because if you have been in a
depressed state and someonetries to tell you something
positive and I've had so manyloving, caring, well-intentioned
friends, family, certainly eventherapists say to me things
like of course you're capable,look at what you've done, or
look at what you've accomplished, or you're being so hard on
(16:27):
yourself, trish, you've reallygot this.
And when I'm in that place, Idon't believe them for a second.
Now, when I come out of mydepressive state, when, in my
language, when I take off mydepression goggles, then there's
a whole new world ofpossibility available to me.
But when I have on mydepression goggles, none of that
seems true and I can't receivethose positive statements from
(16:47):
myself or from anybody else.
Now, as a partner of someonewho's depressed, this is also
very challenging, because I cantell my husband that I love him
and that I think he's amazing,and if he's depressed he's just
not going to be able to receivethat, and then I might feel
frustrated and I might tellmyself a story that his lack of
ability to receive my care meanshe doesn't care about me, and
(17:10):
now we can spin off into a wholedifferent conflict, which I
have been in.
Many versions of conflicts likethat come from that place of my
nervous system experiencing acue of danger for my husband's
nervous system state, and thenhe experiences a cue of danger
from my nervous system state,and we go back and forth until
both of us are really in veryunhelpful places, and I will
(17:31):
share many, many stories withyou so you can really get a
sense of what has been veryunhelpful and what has escalated
situations and made them farworse, and also all the things I
have learned that really canhelp de-escalate situations and
make things better or keep themstable.
As I mentioned before andyou'll hear me say this many
(17:51):
times One goal for dealing withdepression is to not make it
worse, and relationally thatapproach absolutely holds water.
You cannot force your partnerto be somewhere where they
aren't yet, and so sometimes thegoal is not necessarily to make
things better, but just not tomake them worse.
And again, we'll talk moreabout strategies over time, so
keep listening.
(18:11):
What I refer to as depressiongoggles over the course of my
life my professional andpersonal life is explained in
polyvagal theory, that theinterpretations you make are in
fact, tied to your nervoussystem state and again, the
incredible, profound, empoweringimpact of this is that we can
change the stories by changingthe state of our nervous system,
(18:34):
the stories by changing thestate of our nervous system.
And it takes some practice andit's not a switch.
Our nervous system, in fact,can take some time to shift
states, but it is actually verydoable to start creating a felt,
embodied sense of safety,meaning that your body feels
safe.
This is not someone telling youyou're safe, everything's okay,
because when we don't feel safe, we don't feel like everything
(18:57):
is okay, we don't feel likeeverything is going to be fine
in the end.
We'll work this out.
That seems like an absolute liewhen you're in a deep dorsal
state, and so to know that youdon't have to convince yourself.
It is not usually effective,and there's a reason why.
But we can learn how to createthis embodied sense of safety,
(19:18):
how to help our body feel safefrom a sensory experience in
order to begin to move us out ofdorsal.
Which brings me to the thirdcomponent that I talked about in
my last episode of what I calldepression steps, and so I
described this.
If you can imagine a set of 10steps, it could be more or less.
But if you can imagine a set of10 steps and the bottom step is
(19:42):
the deepest, darkest, worstdepressive episode you could be
in, and then you go up the stepsand then the first step at the
top is still depression.
But the top step is not thatsevere.
It's more of like the numbedout, going through the motions
kind of depression.
You're still going to work orschool, you still might go out,
(20:02):
but it might not be really thatfun for you, or you still might
take part in certain activities,but they just don't feel very
satisfying, right?
So if you can imagine this setof steps, and what has been
important for me in thinkingabout the steps of depression,
is that when you're at thatdarkest, lowest step, that
bottom step, the worstdepression you can be in, and
you put in a lot of effort totry to move a step up, you still
(20:24):
feel pretty awful.
But then the interpretationthat people often make certainly
that I have made, that myhusband has made is well, I put
in all this effort and I stillfeel terrible, so it's not
working, and so then you slideright back down a step, because
now you feel hopeless and yourinterpretation of I'm powerless,
I really can't do anything, Ican't make myself feel better,
(20:45):
feels like it was reaffirmed,like, oh see, look, it's true, I
put an effort and I still don'tget anywhere.
But we fail to realize that weare actually improving, we are
actually making progress and wehave to keep making progress and
again, sometimes you're notgonna have the resources to make
progress, to go up another step.
So what do you have to do?
Try to stay on the step you'reon, as opposed to sliding back
(21:09):
down to a deeper level ofdepression.
Now, this phenomenon is alsocaptured in polyvagal theory.
First of all, polyvagal theorysays that our nervous system
only has three states, that itcan be in One state of safety,
the ventral, vagal state, andthen two survival states or
protective states.
One is the mobilized, fight orflight, sympathetic state, and
(21:33):
then the other is theimmobilized, disconnected,
dorsal state, and so those threestates have different shades,
so to speak.
Again, if you imagine the steps, the deepest depression may be
a color black.
For me, I would color it black,and then, as you go up the
steps, for me, I might think ofthose as gray, but it would
(21:55):
start dark gray to a medium gray, to a lighter gray and the top
step would be a very, very lightgray.
And in the nervous system ittakes time to move through those
different shades to get to aplace of feeling safe.
To move through those differentshades to get to a place of
feeling safe, to move actuallyout of the dorsal state.
It takes a certain amount oftime and it can vary.
It could be 90 seconds perhaps,depending on how far down you
(22:20):
are and what is helping you havean embodied sense of safety,
being able to uplift you into asympathetic state, that
mobilized state which could havethe energy of just doing
something, the energy of beingable to get out of bed and brush
your teeth or, for me, theenergy to do my administrative
work.
In my private practice there'ssome mobilized sympathetic
energy that I need to do thatand sometimes that feels very
(22:41):
overwhelming and very scary.
So I stay stuck in my dorsalstate and then I don't do
anything but to know and havecompassion that our nervous
system is responding to a cue ofdanger and I need to be able to
increase the cues of safety andreduce the cues of danger, and
there may be only one cue ofdanger, but it may feel very
heavy and very big.
(23:02):
It may be weighted in such away that there might be many
cues of safety around, but ifthat cue of danger feels
enormous, I'm going to stay in adefended survival state.
So I think it's so helpful torealize that if we're staying
stuck essentially in the dorsalstate, we can still help
ourselves feel a little bit moresafe incrementally, in little
(23:25):
bits, in little chunks, inlittle steps, and we can move
ourselves gently up the steps ofdepression.
And it might take some time and,to be honest, we live in a
society where we are often notgranted much compassion at all,
let alone much time or resourcesfor us to be able to take the
(23:45):
break that sometimes our nervoussystem really needs to take.
And we can stay stuck in adorsal state for a very, very
long time.
That's what a long depressiveepisode is, because we're
feeling so threatened bywhatever it is.
I mean again, sometimes theidea of just getting out of bed
to brush your teeth seems reallythreatening.
(24:06):
And then we shame ourselves, orsometimes we are shamed by
others, that that's not such ahard thing to do, and what is a
cue of danger for one person maynot be a cue of danger for
another person.
But sometimes we need to giveour nervous system a long period
of time to truly get thatrestorative time that it needs
and to get enough cues of safetythat feel like they're heavily
(24:28):
weighted enough to be able totruly start to not only just
move us up and out of the dorsalexperience but be able to move
us into taking action in a waythat feels safe and then
eventually bringing us into thateventual safe, connected place.
For me, understanding theconnection of the nervous system
and the functioning of thevagus nerve and how our body is
(24:49):
trying to protect us and howthis is directly related to our
mental activity, our mentalhealth and what's happening for
us, the interpretations we makeand how we see ourselves and the
world and others, was soincredibly helpful because,
again, this is a shame-free,judgment-free perspective.
(25:10):
This is a perspective thatthere is nothing wrong with you,
for where your nervous systemis, there's a reason why your
nervous system has gone intoself-protective mode.
You're not crazy, you're notdefective, and of course, I'm
saying that you're not this, youare not but these are things
that I have felt very much overmy life.
(25:30):
I am defective has been a corebelief of mine for as long as I
can remember, until really justthe last few years.
That I've really been able torelease that and I knew that
that was attached to mydepression goggles.
But when I was in a safe place,it was so easy for me to
experience a cue of danger thatmy nervous system would go right
back into a dorsal place andthose thoughts would come back.
(25:52):
And then it was this sense ofinevitability, like, oh well,
this is how I'm always going tofeel and I'm always going to get
back to this place.
And then I would feel powerless, or parts of me would believe
that that was my true self, thatthose were my true thoughts,
that I was hopeless andpowerless and incapable and
defective and not deserving ofhappiness, and I identified
strongly with that as a truth.
(26:13):
And so I will continue toexplore depression through a
polyvagal lens and really focuson what I have learned to help
move from a dorsal state back toa ventral state, because I have
found it to be among the mosthelpful strategies in dealing
and healing through depressionand really understanding that
(26:34):
our nervous system iscommunicating to us and if we
can listen to what it'scommunicating instead of shaming
ourselves or feeling likethere's something wrong with us,
then we actually can begin toheal through our depressive
experiences and we can certainlyimprove them.
So I will talk a lot more aboutthat.
That will be a huge focus ofthis podcast, but for today,
what I really wanted to put outthere was how the lived
(26:56):
experience of depression isreally connected to the nervous
system.
I hope that in hearing that,you're able to begin shifting.
Whatever your interpretationsare about yourself or about your
partner, about any hopelessnessor powerlessness or any of
those negative messages thatyou're carrying or feeling like
(27:19):
you're separate from everybodyor your partner feels so
separate from you, I hope youcan start to just begin to shift
into the beginning of a newunderstanding that there's
something else going on herethat maybe you didn't know was
happening and that, if you knowwhat's really going on, there
truly is a way to supportyourself through depression in
(27:39):
perhaps a very different waythan you've ever thought about
before.
So thanks for showing up today.
As our time comes to a closeand as you continue to travel
along on your own uniquewellness journey, I leave you
with an invitation To move fromwhere you are today to where you
want to be.
The path may seem long ordaunting or unclear, and I want
(28:02):
you to know that that is totallyokay.
You do not have to create thewhole way all at once.
My invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
(28:23):
it could be a step youvisualize.
Whatever makes sense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday Because healing, growth,
connection and joy is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
even when depression is in yourbed.
If you connected with today'sepisode, please subscribe so you
can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
(28:45):
I encourage you to leave areview.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes, and please
share this podcast with anyonewho you think may be interested
or enjoy what I have to share.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
a step.
Hello and welcome to the when Depression is in your
Bed podcast.
Are you or your partner, orperhaps both of you, struggling
with depression?
Are you feeling frustrated,hopeless or even ashamed,
because you just can't seem tofigure out how to improve your
life or your relationship?
Well, if so, keep listening,because in today's episode, I
(00:22):
will begin to explore aperspective on depression that
you likely haven't heard aboutbefore, and this perspective can
change everything.
By truly understanding themind-body experience of
depression and, specifically,the vital role of the nervous
system, a path towards healingand growing through the
(00:44):
suffering, a path towards themore joyful, more connected life
and relationship you want tohave, begins to emerge.
I'm your host, trish Sanders,and I can't wait to begin to
share all of this with you.
Let's get started.
In the last episode, which wascalled Beyond Diagnosis
(01:06):
Understanding Depression, Ibegan to move past the
diagnostic criteria or thesymptoms that are used to
diagnose clinical depressioninto the way that I have come to
understand depression throughmy own experience, and what I am
going to share today is how,the ways that I have come to
(01:27):
understand depression over thelast 30 plus years is actually
connected to our nervous system,which I knew, of course, for
many, many years.
There's a mind-body connection,but it was only in the last few
years that I became aware ofpolyvagal theory, and this was a
life changing discovery for me,because I started to understand
(01:51):
what was truly happening in mybody experience and how it was
connected to the experience Ihad of depression.
And the best thing aboutknowing this was that it gave me
an even clearer understandingof what I could do when I was
feeling depressed, and I'm soexcited to begin to share this
information with you today.
(02:12):
I am intentionally doing this alittle bit backwards, because
I'm going to tell you a littlebit about polyvagal theory today
, but focus on how the nervoussystem connects to the
experiences of depression that Ishared in my last episode, and
then in the next episode I willexplain polyvagal theory a
little bit more comprehensivelyToday.
(02:34):
Just to begin our discussion.
Polyvagal theory is aneurophysiological model which
basically just means that it isa study of how the nervous
system works, and it was createdby Dr Stephen Porges.
Essentially, it explains howour autonomic nervous system,
particularly the vagus nerve.
Polyvagal means the threestates that our nervous system
(02:56):
can be in, and one, essentially,is a state of safety and the
other two are states of survivalor defense.
So when we're feeling groundedand safe, then we are in what's
called ventral vagal, and I'lltalk more about that in the next
episode.
But when we feel threatened andthis can be a physical threat
or an emotional threat we can gointo a survival response, which
(03:18):
, of course, is very helpful.
If you're driving a car on thehighway and someone goes to cut
you off, it's excellent that wehave a very fast acting survival
response that, before our eyeseven register, that vehicle is
next to us.
We might not even be able tosay what color the car was or
what the model or make of a carwas, but our nervous system
(03:39):
actually can process veryquickly that we are in danger
and we need to take action, andso we might turn the wheel very
quickly to change lanes or wemight jam on the brakes In this
example.
That's an excellent function ofhow our nervous system works
with our brain to keep us safe.
In this example, this ismobilized response to threat,
which means that I am perceivinga threat and I have to do
(04:00):
something about it.
We take action in order toprotect ourselves from threat,
and this is called oursympathetic state, our fight or
flight response.
I will also talk more about thesympathetic state in my next
episode, but for today, what Iwant to start to really dive
into is the third state of ournervous system.
Our third state is animmobilized response to threat.
(04:24):
Third state is an immobilizedresponse to threat.
Essentially, it is my nervoussystem is picking up cues of
danger and I feel powerless todo anything about it.
Perhaps it feels toooverwhelming or I don't have the
resources, maybe I'm too tiredor I don't know what to do
something like that, and so wego into a shutdown.
And I will talk more about thevalue of these immobilized
(04:48):
responses another time, butagain, today I want to focus
specifically on how the nervoussystem connects to how I have
come to really understanddepression, because I find it
very helpful in beginning tounderstand what can I do when I
feel depressed, because now Ihave this new way of thinking,
this new language, what can I dowhen my nervous system is in
(05:09):
this state?
And so I really want to focuson that today, even though
there's a wealth of reallyvaluable information that I will
definitely share with you as wemove through podcast episodes.
So this immobilized response tothreat is called dorsal vagal.
The dorsal vagal state serves avery important purpose, and
when we don't have the resourcesto fight or run, we can go into
(05:32):
shutdown and be in arestorative state.
However, when people talk aboutclinical depression,
essentially what is happening isthat their nervous system is
more or less stuck in a dorsalstate, more or less stuck in
this immobilized, defensive,protective state, and so I want
(05:52):
to cover the three components ofhow I have come to understand
depression that I discussed inthe last episode and explain how
they are connected to ournervous system, which I have
only relatively recently beganto explore through Dr Porges'
polyvagal theory.
So the first thing that Ishared in the last episode was
(06:13):
that I have come to simplydefine depression as
disconnection.
What this means, through apolyvagal lens or through a
nervous system lens, is thatwhen our nervous system feels
threatened and we feel powerlessor helpless, or we don't have
the energy or resources to fightor run from a threat, we do
(06:34):
disconnect.
It is not a healthy, helpfulresponse to threat to connect.
We don't want to be close, wedon't want to reach out to
something that's potentiallythreatening us.
We want to either attack it orrun from it or disappear, be
invisible.
Essentially, it doesn't reallymake sense to reach out in
(06:58):
connection when we're trying toprotect ourselves.
Protection is a very me firstway of thinking and way of
acting and this isextraordinarily important.
When our body is in a survivalstate, we are not able to
connect.
We are only able to connectwhen our nervous system is in
that grounded, safe state ofventral that I will talk about
next time.
(07:18):
Depression is disconnection isthe ultimate self-protection and
to understand the function ofthe nervous system, that we are
not disconnecting becausethere's something wrong with us.
We are not disconnectingbecause we're actually not
capable or not good enough orpowerless.
(07:39):
We're not hopeless.
It's not that we absolutelycan't handle life, it's just
that in this moment our nervoussystem is trying to protect us
and so we are disconnected andwe are withdrawn.
We're trying to be invisible,trying to disappear, to try to
keep ourselves safe.
As I talk more about polyvagaltheory and more about depression
(08:00):
through this lens, I find it tobe such a relieving breath of
fresh air.
It is so completely shame free.
There is so much stigmaattached to someone who is
depressed that they should justpick themselves up by their
bootstraps and push and justmake themselves feel better if
they just do something, get outof bed, just take action.
(08:24):
And while these are helpfulideas, when your nervous system
is trying to protect itself,it's not easy to just do
something.
If your experience is, I canonly be safe or I can only
survive if I withdraw ordisappear or I'm invisible, or
if I have to disconnect in orderto stay alive, it wouldn't
really be a very good defensesystem if it was easily changed.
(08:48):
Defenses need to be rigid, theyneed to be firm, so it's not
such an easy switch to say, okay, well, I'm feeling disconnected
because this is what's going tohelp me survive.
Oh, I should just connect now,I'm okay.
It's not quite like that.
If getting out of bed is a cueof danger to somebody, then
they're going to stay in bedbecause the feeling is I don't
(09:10):
have the energy to get out ofbed and getting out of bed is
dangerous and I might die.
And so it makes a lot of sensethat we would really hold on to
and stay very connected to ourdisconnection.
Again, I will talk a lot moreabout this and what this means
and how we can move to find safeconnection.
But to know that depression isdisconnection is explained
(09:31):
through the nervous systemexperience that we are hiding to
keep ourselves safe.
There's really nothing wrongwith us at all.
The problem comes in when weare unable to bring our nervous
system back into a state ofsafety and groundedness and
connection.
And for many of us, we had anexperience earlier in our lives
(09:54):
in which our nervous systemlearned that being disconnected,
that being invisible, thathiding, that withdrawing, that
being small was actually the wayto keep us safe.
Our nervous system took thatlearning into our teenage and
adult lives and if you can startto understand that our body was
(10:14):
really being very functionaland working in a way to protect
us and actually shift to a placeof gratitude like wow, my body
was just protecting me.
I'm so grateful for that.
Isn't that wonderful that mynervous system and my brain are
hardwired to keep me safe?
When I was a little kid and Ididn't have a lot of resources
or choice perhaps because kidsdon't really have choice a lot
(10:38):
in our society they're told whatto do, when to do it.
There's parents and there'steachers and there's family
members and there's all sorts ofpeople telling kids what to do,
so their choices are reallylimited and so our nervous
system and our brain really cometo our rescue when we're young.
But if we had that experiencevery often, that being in that
dorsal state, that immobilizedstate, it is safer to do nothing
(10:59):
than to try to take action.
If that's the lesson that wehave learned, then we are going
to, in our adulthood, reallystay committed to that.
Well, this is the way that Ifind safety.
I disconnect, I play small, Iwill avoid danger by being in a
dorsal state.
For me, this was an incredibleaha moment, like, oh okay.
(11:20):
Well, this is why depressionfeels like disconnection.
It's not safe to connect tomyself, or it's not safe to
connect to anyone else, or it'snot safe to connect to the
larger world.
Now, the second piece of myunderstanding of depression that
I shared in the last episodewas what I call depression
goggles.
It is the experience that Icame to understand that when I
(11:40):
was looking at myself or othersor the world, when I felt
depressed, it was very differentthan when I didn't feel
depressed.
When I'm depressed and I thinkof myself, I often think things
like I'm worthless and I'mincapable and I am not deserving
of happiness, and a lot of verynegative things, certainly
(12:00):
hopeless and I'm powerless.
These are some thoughts whenI'm depressed I believe are
absolute truths, and aboutothers, people don't care about
me, no one's really there for me, I'm not really important to
anyone, and the world, the world, is often just so overwhelming
it's not really even worthtrying.
Those are some of the thoughtsfor myself when I'm wearing my
(12:21):
depression goggles, when I'm ina depressive state.
That's some of what I see,that's the lens that I look
through and how things appear tome.
And, like I said, I have calledthat depression goggles.
Through polyvagal theory, I havelearned that the
interpretations, the stories wetell ourselves about ourselves
and others and the world aredirectly connected to the state
(12:43):
of our nervous system.
I will expand upon this idea infuture episodes, but the short
version is that when we're inour eventual state, which is
that safe, calm, connected place, we will experience ourselves
as kind, loving, able to learn,able to make mistakes, able to
try again after making a mistake.
(13:05):
Other people are helpful,trying their best, available for
us, kind, loving, the world isfull of opportunity, that kind
of thing.
When we are in a sympatheticstate, that fight or flight,
mobilized, response to threatstate, we might feel that we
have to do everything, we haveto take on all the
responsibilities.
If we don't do it ourselves, itwon't get done, and other
(13:28):
people are always out to get us,trying to give us a hard time.
They don't know what to do.
No one comes through for us andthe world seems very dangerous.
There's a lot of problems, a lotof fires, one thing after
another that we have to takecare of, and then we're in that
dorsal place, that immobilized,shut down, disconnected place.
We think these thoughts thatreally are surrounded around
(13:50):
powerlessness and hopelessness,and so it makes complete sense
that when we're in that place,that thoughts of death and
suicide come and are attached tothe state of our nervous system
.
So here is, if not the mostvaluable, one of the most
valuable things that I havelearned in the past several
(14:13):
years that has created a hugeshift in how I've been able to
respond to my own depression andmy husband's depressive
episodes, that we don't have toget stuck in the stories,
because they're justinterpretations that are linked
to our nervous system state.
What is a much more helpfulfocus for us is to change our
(14:36):
nervous system state and, all ofa sudden, instead of trying to
convince yourself that, no,you're really a very capable
person and you absolutely canget out of bed and brush your
teeth, or you absolutely cancomplete this project on time,
or you absolutely can get up anddo this public speaking thing,
or you're actually a really goodparent which, when you're in a
(14:57):
depressed state, you can tellyourself those things till
you're blue in the face.
But realistically, most of thetime those things won't work.
And this is also a reason why,although I am a fan of
affirmations in certain casespositive affirmations when
you're in a very depressed stateyou don't believe those
affirmations because yournervous system is saying nope,
(15:19):
they don't feel like your truthin that moment and so you
discount them.
Your nervous system feels likeyou're lying to it, which in and
of itself can be a cue ofdanger, like nah, this isn't
true, I'm not really capable,you're trying to get one over on
me and you dig in further to adepressive state.
So depression can really feeditself.
Because the more you can try topush yourself to move out of
(15:40):
depression, the more yournervous system might hold on to
what feels like safety, thatshutdown, that powerlessness,
that immobilized state, that notdoing anything right.
If you remember, if we takefrom our childhood, it was safer
to not do something than totake action, then we're not
going to easily move into anactive state.
And so the idea that we don'thave to convince ourselves of a
(16:03):
new story because I laugh,because if you have been in a
depressed state and someonetries to tell you something
positive and I've had so manyloving, caring, well-intentioned
friends, family, certainly eventherapists say to me things
like of course you're capable,look at what you've done, or
look at what you've accomplished, or you're being so hard on
(16:27):
yourself, trish, you've reallygot this.
And when I'm in that place, Idon't believe them for a second.
Now, when I come out of mydepressive state, when, in my
language, when I take off mydepression goggles, then there's
a whole new world ofpossibility available to me.
But when I have on mydepression goggles, none of that
seems true and I can't receivethose positive statements from
(16:47):
myself or from anybody else.
Now, as a partner of someonewho's depressed, this is also
very challenging, because I cantell my husband that I love him
and that I think he's amazing,and if he's depressed he's just
not going to be able to receivethat, and then I might feel
frustrated and I might tellmyself a story that his lack of
ability to receive my care meanshe doesn't care about me, and
(17:10):
now we can spin off into a wholedifferent conflict, which I
have been in.
Many versions of conflicts likethat come from that place of my
nervous system experiencing acue of danger for my husband's
nervous system state, and thenhe experiences a cue of danger
from my nervous system state,and we go back and forth until
both of us are really in veryunhelpful places, and I will
(17:31):
share many, many stories withyou so you can really get a
sense of what has been veryunhelpful and what has escalated
situations and made them farworse, and also all the things I
have learned that really canhelp de-escalate situations and
make things better or keep themstable.
As I mentioned before andyou'll hear me say this many
(17:51):
times One goal for dealing withdepression is to not make it
worse, and relationally thatapproach absolutely holds water.
You cannot force your partnerto be somewhere where they
aren't yet, and so sometimes thegoal is not necessarily to make
things better, but just not tomake them worse.
And again, we'll talk moreabout strategies over time, so
keep listening.
(18:11):
What I refer to as depressiongoggles over the course of my
life my professional andpersonal life is explained in
polyvagal theory, that theinterpretations you make are in
fact, tied to your nervoussystem state and again, the
incredible, profound, empoweringimpact of this is that we can
change the stories by changingthe state of our nervous system,
(18:34):
the stories by changing thestate of our nervous system.
And it takes some practice andit's not a switch.
Our nervous system, in fact,can take some time to shift
states, but it is actually verydoable to start creating a felt,
embodied sense of safety,meaning that your body feels
safe.
This is not someone telling youyou're safe, everything's okay,
because when we don't feel safe, we don't feel like everything
(18:57):
is okay, we don't feel likeeverything is going to be fine
in the end.
We'll work this out.
That seems like an absolute liewhen you're in a deep dorsal
state, and so to know that youdon't have to convince yourself.
It is not usually effective,and there's a reason why.
But we can learn how to createthis embodied sense of safety,
(19:18):
how to help our body feel safefrom a sensory experience in
order to begin to move us out ofdorsal.
Which brings me to the thirdcomponent that I talked about in
my last episode of what I calldepression steps, and so I
described this.
If you can imagine a set of 10steps, it could be more or less.
But if you can imagine a set of10 steps and the bottom step is
(19:42):
the deepest, darkest, worstdepressive episode you could be
in, and then you go up the stepsand then the first step at the
top is still depression.
But the top step is not thatsevere.
It's more of like the numbedout, going through the motions
kind of depression.
You're still going to work orschool, you still might go out,
(20:02):
but it might not be really thatfun for you, or you still might
take part in certain activities,but they just don't feel very
satisfying, right?
So if you can imagine this setof steps, and what has been
important for me in thinkingabout the steps of depression,
is that when you're at thatdarkest, lowest step, that
bottom step, the worstdepression you can be in, and
you put in a lot of effort totry to move a step up, you still
(20:24):
feel pretty awful.
But then the interpretationthat people often make certainly
that I have made, that myhusband has made is well, I put
in all this effort and I stillfeel terrible, so it's not
working, and so then you slideright back down a step, because
now you feel hopeless and yourinterpretation of I'm powerless,
I really can't do anything, Ican't make myself feel better,
(20:45):
feels like it was reaffirmed,like, oh see, look, it's true, I
put an effort and I still don'tget anywhere.
But we fail to realize that weare actually improving, we are
actually making progress and wehave to keep making progress and
again, sometimes you're notgonna have the resources to make
progress, to go up another step.
So what do you have to do?
Try to stay on the step you'reon, as opposed to sliding back
(21:09):
down to a deeper level ofdepression.
Now, this phenomenon is alsocaptured in polyvagal theory.
First of all, polyvagal theorysays that our nervous system
only has three states, that itcan be in One state of safety,
the ventral, vagal state, andthen two survival states or
protective states.
One is the mobilized, fight orflight, sympathetic state, and
(21:33):
then the other is theimmobilized, disconnected,
dorsal state, and so those threestates have different shades,
so to speak.
Again, if you imagine the steps, the deepest depression may be
a color black.
For me, I would color it black,and then, as you go up the
steps, for me, I might think ofthose as gray, but it would
(21:55):
start dark gray to a medium gray, to a lighter gray and the top
step would be a very, very lightgray.
And in the nervous system ittakes time to move through those
different shades to get to aplace of feeling safe.
To move through those differentshades to get to a place of
feeling safe, to move actuallyout of the dorsal state.
It takes a certain amount oftime and it can vary.
It could be 90 seconds perhaps,depending on how far down you
(22:20):
are and what is helping you havean embodied sense of safety,
being able to uplift you into asympathetic state, that
mobilized state which could havethe energy of just doing
something, the energy of beingable to get out of bed and brush
your teeth or, for me, theenergy to do my administrative
work.
In my private practice there'ssome mobilized sympathetic
energy that I need to do thatand sometimes that feels very
(22:41):
overwhelming and very scary.
So I stay stuck in my dorsalstate and then I don't do
anything but to know and havecompassion that our nervous
system is responding to a cue ofdanger and I need to be able to
increase the cues of safety andreduce the cues of danger, and
there may be only one cue ofdanger, but it may feel very
heavy and very big.
(23:02):
It may be weighted in such away that there might be many
cues of safety around, but ifthat cue of danger feels
enormous, I'm going to stay in adefended survival state.
So I think it's so helpful torealize that if we're staying
stuck essentially in the dorsalstate, we can still help
ourselves feel a little bit moresafe incrementally, in little
(23:25):
bits, in little chunks, inlittle steps, and we can move
ourselves gently up the steps ofdepression.
And it might take some time and,to be honest, we live in a
society where we are often notgranted much compassion at all,
let alone much time or resourcesfor us to be able to take the
(23:45):
break that sometimes our nervoussystem really needs to take.
And we can stay stuck in adorsal state for a very, very
long time.
That's what a long depressiveepisode is, because we're
feeling so threatened bywhatever it is.
I mean again, sometimes theidea of just getting out of bed
to brush your teeth seems reallythreatening.
(24:06):
And then we shame ourselves, orsometimes we are shamed by
others, that that's not such ahard thing to do, and what is a
cue of danger for one person maynot be a cue of danger for
another person.
But sometimes we need to giveour nervous system a long period
of time to truly get thatrestorative time that it needs
and to get enough cues of safetythat feel like they're heavily
(24:28):
weighted enough to be able totruly start to not only just
move us up and out of the dorsalexperience but be able to move
us into taking action in a waythat feels safe and then
eventually bringing us into thateventual safe, connected place.
For me, understanding theconnection of the nervous system
and the functioning of thevagus nerve and how our body is
(24:49):
trying to protect us and howthis is directly related to our
mental activity, our mentalhealth and what's happening for
us, the interpretations we makeand how we see ourselves and the
world and others, was soincredibly helpful because,
again, this is a shame-free,judgment-free perspective.
(25:10):
This is a perspective thatthere is nothing wrong with you,
for where your nervous systemis, there's a reason why your
nervous system has gone intoself-protective mode.
You're not crazy, you're notdefective, and of course, I'm
saying that you're not this, youare not but these are things
that I have felt very much overmy life.
(25:30):
I am defective has been a corebelief of mine for as long as I
can remember, until really justthe last few years.
That I've really been able torelease that and I knew that
that was attached to mydepression goggles.
But when I was in a safe place,it was so easy for me to
experience a cue of danger thatmy nervous system would go right
back into a dorsal place andthose thoughts would come back.
(25:52):
And then it was this sense ofinevitability, like, oh well,
this is how I'm always going tofeel and I'm always going to get
back to this place.
And then I would feel powerless, or parts of me would believe
that that was my true self, thatthose were my true thoughts,
that I was hopeless andpowerless and incapable and
defective and not deserving ofhappiness, and I identified
strongly with that as a truth.
(26:13):
And so I will continue toexplore depression through a
polyvagal lens and really focuson what I have learned to help
move from a dorsal state back toa ventral state, because I have
found it to be among the mosthelpful strategies in dealing
and healing through depressionand really understanding that
(26:34):
our nervous system iscommunicating to us and if we
can listen to what it'scommunicating instead of shaming
ourselves or feeling likethere's something wrong with us,
then we actually can begin toheal through our depressive
experiences and we can certainlyimprove them.
So I will talk a lot more aboutthat.
That will be a huge focus ofthis podcast, but for today,
what I really wanted to put outthere was how the lived
(26:56):
experience of depression isreally connected to the nervous
system.
I hope that in hearing that,you're able to begin shifting.
Whatever your interpretationsare about yourself or about your
partner, about any hopelessnessor powerlessness or any of
those negative messages thatyou're carrying or feeling like
(27:19):
you're separate from everybodyor your partner feels so
separate from you, I hope youcan start to just begin to shift
into the beginning of a newunderstanding that there's
something else going on herethat maybe you didn't know was
happening and that, if you knowwhat's really going on, there
truly is a way to supportyourself through depression in
(27:39):
perhaps a very different waythan you've ever thought about
before.
So thanks for showing up today.
As our time comes to a closeand as you continue to travel
along on your own uniquewellness journey, I leave you
with an invitation To move fromwhere you are today to where you
want to be.
The path may seem long ordaunting or unclear, and I want
(28:02):
you to know that that is totallyokay.
You do not have to create thewhole way all at once.
My invitation to you today is totake a step, just one, any type
, any size, in any direction.
It can be an external step thatcan be observed or measured, or
(28:23):
it could be a step youvisualize.
Whatever makes sense to you.
I invite you to take a steptoday Because healing, growth,
connection and joy is possiblefor everyone, including you, and
even when depression is in yourbed.
If you connected with today'sepisode, please subscribe so you
can be notified when eachweekly episode gets released.
(28:45):
I encourage you to leave areview.
Your feedback will help guidefuture episodes, and please
share this podcast with anyonewho you think may be interested
or enjoy what I have to share.
Until the next time we connect,take care of yourself and take
a step.
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