January 31, 2021 • 65 mins
Sometimes the caterpillar blossoms into a butterfly, only for circumstances to remind her that her wings came too late. Kreed Revere shares the story of how estrangement from her daughters forced her to embark on a courageous journey of transformation. Sadly, she’s learning that some damage can’t be undone by doing everything differently. Still, she remains hopeful that the sincerity of her approach will open the door to healing of her strained family relationships.
Books:
When Parents Hurt
Fault Lines
#PTSD #estrangement #trauma #ReconnectionClub #drkarlpillemer
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Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
SPEAKER_03 (00:00):
The following is the Kingfisher Media Podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
You're listening to When the Bell Breaks, I'm your
host, AC Fisher, and with metoday is my co-host, Alexis
Arrollin.
Our guest today is Creed Revere.
Creed, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
Thanks so much.
I'm grateful to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (00:36):
Welcome.
Well, I have to say I'm reallyexcited to have you because
right off the bat, I just wantto let everyone know that you
are our first parent, estrangedparent that we've had on the
show.
So a very extra special welcometo you for offering your time
(00:56):
and uh for letting yourselfbecome vulnerable during this
time so we can talk about someof these issues.
So thank you very, very, verymuch for being here.
We really appreciate uh yourpresence here with us today.
So I wanted to make sure that Igot that across to everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Thanks a lot.
SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Um so really quickly, can you tell us a
little bit about how you heardabout the show and why you are
here today?
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Sure.
Um AC contacted me.
Um, he found my page on Facebookthat I have for Estrange Moms.
So I have a page and a supportgroup through Facebook.
And so that's how he located me.
He sent an email and um asked ifI myself or anyone in my support
group would be willing to comeon the show.
(01:44):
And I said sure.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
So that's why I made my way here.
So we had a chat with you and wetalked about some things.
Uh, we could have talked allday.
Um, I felt like we had a lot incommon, even though we're kind
of on different ends of things.
Um, so I kind of wanted to talka little bit about that.
(02:08):
So you're an estranged mom.
Can you you don't have to, youknow, spend this whole entire
episode talking about thedetails of your experience, but
you know, could you share alittle bit just to provide some
context for us?
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Sure.
I'm actually uh reconciled withmy my two daughters.
I have two children and twodaughters.
Um, and I was um estranged fromthem for with one about a year
and the other one about twoyears.
Um, and that was about fouryears ago now.
So um, and it came about whatappeared to be in the beginning
(02:47):
very unexpectedly, you know, Iwas um pretty much blown out of
the water completely in panicshock mode when it first
happened.
Um, and looking back on it now,I realized that wasn't wasn't
out of the blue.
There's always a lead up to it.
So um, but it was a hard, it wasa hard, hard year in two years
(03:12):
with with my oldest daughter.
Um, and something that I can saynow was the most difficult road
I have ever traveled in my 52years of living.
So it was very hard.
Um, but we're we're on the otherside of that.
And so I have I have aperspective that's pretty wide
(03:35):
in that um, you know, I've I'veexperienced estrangement, um, we
have reconciled, and I can saythat reconciliation is not
always what we think it may be,um, as moms, especially, or as a
parent coming out ofestrangement.
Yeah.
This um belief that we'll comeback and be the way things used
to be, and that's not the case.
(03:57):
Um, so so yeah, I mean, I can gointo as much detail as you want.
I'm I'm open to sharing mystory, but just let me know how
much more you would like for meto share.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
The first question that kind of jumps out at me is,
you know, when you talk aboutthe reconciliation and things
not going back to like the waythey were, I can understand this
being uh kind of likesurprising, maybe for all
parties involved, but I can'thelp but wonder like, is this
(04:32):
something that is disappointingthat that things didn't go back
to business as usual?
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Well, I think that's it's twofold.
Disappointing in that um I Idon't feel as close to my
children as I once thought thatI was.
Um, and so we've had to redefineour relationship with one
another.
And so that part'sdisappointing.
(05:02):
The other side of that same coinis it's refreshing to know that
we can have a do-over, if youwill, um, but in a in a more
healthy way of being inrelationship with one another,
um, for both, you know, as asmom and daughter, but also me as
(05:23):
an individual, them as anindividual as well.
So I think it's a it's a mixedbag, as most of estrangement is
and reconciliation can be aswell.
So does that answer yourquestion?
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
No, it actually answers it very well.
You know, like sorry, I don'twant to like completely hijack
the interview here, but you'veyou've you've immediately piqued
my curiosity here because Isomewhat recently-ish reconciled
with my mom after six years ofof no contact.
(05:56):
And you know, on the kids' endof the equation, I I feel a lot
of what you're saying, you know,like we've come back together,
but things aren't the way theywere.
But I can't say it's a goodthing or a bad thing, it's just
a thing.
But I'm I often get stuck inthis frame of mind where I
wonder, like, if I had theability to communicate with
(06:18):
myself pre-estrangement, youknow, what kind of message would
I send back through time thatmight help me kind of cope with
the process?
Is there any of that sort ofthought pattern with you, like
in in relation to how youapproached your relationships
with your daughterspre-estrangement?
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
I don't know.
I mean, obviously, there arethings that I would do
differently and would like toget a message out um to myself
and to them if I could go backin time, so to speak.
But I don't think that there'sum, you know, it's such a such a
convoluted experience.
(07:03):
There's and it's so emotional.
There are just so many layers toestrangement that it's hard to
say, well, if I could have justsaid this to myself, you know,
it would have fixed everything,or it would have never happened,
or it would have been different,or we wouldn't have lasted as
long, or you know, those typesof things.
(07:24):
It's really for me, it's reallyhard to say that there's just
one or two layers to this.
That's just for me, there's so,so many layers.
Yeah.
I know that that's not reallyanswering your question, but I I
don't think that for me, um,there's any one or two things
that I could have gone back andsaid and it would have turned
(07:47):
out any different.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
I think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Yeah, same, same cookie, different shape.
SPEAKER_00 (07:51):
I feel like you've done a great job of answering
the question, actually.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
I don't think that there is a clear answer.
And I think that for anybodydealing with estrangement in any
capacity, I don't think thatthey can really fully absorb how
complicated these relationshipsare.
SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
Yeah, because we get a lot of those questions of why
can't you just talk?
Why can't you just it's like youdon't really understand it
really is complicated and it'shard to sift through.
And that's why, you know, a lotof us end up in counseling
because we need someone to kindof help us figure this stuff out
because it is hard to answerbecause it's a mixed bag, it's
(08:30):
complicated, there are lots oflayers, and it it takes time to
even get to a point ofreconciliation.
And that was another question II had for you is that you know,
how how did you get there?
I mean, who if you could answerreally quickly, who initiated
the no contact?
Because that kind of puts thingsin perspective for uh AC and I.
(08:55):
Um, because his mother initiatedno contact with him.
I initiated no contact with myparents.
Sometimes it matters, sometimesit doesn't, but I'm just
curious.
Um, you know, who initiated nocontact and then how did you
reach a point of reconciliationwith them?
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah.
No, it's a great question.
Um, my daughters initiated theno contact.
So um I had prior to my umimmediately prior to the
estrangement, I had gonethrough, I was in a super
stressful time in my life.
I was going through um aseparation with my partner.
(09:32):
I had a super high stress jobthat was just making me crazy.
Um, and my partner also foundout um they had cancer um in the
midst of all of this.
So there there were so manyemotions going on.
And then about um it was rightafter the first of the year, um,
we're almost actually at thatanniversary date having this
(09:53):
conversation today.
Um wow.
Yeah, I didn't happyanniversary.
I didn't realize that until justnow.
Um but and then and then I itjust stopped.
There was um there was aconversation that um I had with
my daughter via text, my oldestdaughter via text, right before
the estrangement happened.
And she was concerned about myemotional state due to the
(10:17):
stress and things that I wasunder.
And um she asked me to take anaction that I was not willing to
take.
And it was for it wasn'tsomething that she wanted for
herself, it was something shewanted for me, and I wasn't
willing to do that.
Um and within a few days, I wascompletely cut off.
(10:37):
Um, no responses to phone calls,text messages, you know, blocked
from Facebook, all social media.
I just absolutely no contact.
Um, and so it that went on forabout six months or so, where I
just had zero contact with them.
Um, I did know through myparents that they were in
(11:01):
contact with my parents, so Iknew that they were okay.
But that was one of my biggestthings that I faced in the midst
of my estrangement was theconcern of are my kids okay?
Yeah, because it went fromregular contact to nothing
overnight, seemingly overnight.
So um that happened, and thenabout the six-month mark, my
(11:24):
youngest one um she started torespond to some text that I
sent.
And we very, very sparsecommunication with her, and then
that eventually led tocommunication um through email
with my oldest, although thosethose communication um exchanges
(11:47):
were not pleasant, they werevery, very um taxing.
Um, and I'll just leave it atthat um with me.
So emotional.
My went on for about two years,my oldest, and for my youngest
one, it was about I wouldventure to say eight to ten
months was before we reallystarted to to be able to sit
(12:09):
down and actually haveconversations about about
important things.
Um and then the um thatreconciliation piece came in
when um you know, I think myyoungest kind of played a hand
in helping me to reconcile withmy oldest.
Um, I think that I didn't, if Idid, I did not intend to put her
(12:31):
in the middle of any of that,but I do think that that there
was a piece to that.
Um, and my oldest one thenreached out to me.
I had just completely backed offfrom her um and just did not
have any communication at all.
And she reached out to me at onepoint um about it was about my
grandson um meeting to have ummeeting for a meal for his
(12:56):
birthday.
So that's how we started to getback into communication.
And even after that, it stilltook almost another year before
we could, I felt like have anactual conversation.
SPEAKER_03 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like, yeah, I mean, thisis something I haven't really
talked about on the show yet,but I I I guess I should start
talking about it now becausethis is totally relevant to this
episode.
Uh I started to havecommunication with my mom uh
this past summer.
Uh, she reached out to me.
(13:32):
Uh, it was kind of funny.
It wasn't like an act, shedidn't actually say anything,
she just sent me a link.
So I thought, oh, that's youknow.
Um, but we're in very lowcontact, like we have contact
with each other.
But yeah, we're not at thatplace where we can have a
conversation or even agree onwhat to talk about because there
are so many things that are offthe table for both of us.
(13:54):
We haven't really found anythingwhere we can meet in the middle.
And poor AC is kind of he's beenkind of mediating for us uh this
entire time.
And so I I I can only imaginehow frustrating it is for
someone to be in the middle likethat.
Yes.
Um, but anyway, I guess what I'mgetting at is yeah, I'm kind of
(14:17):
going through that myselfpersonally.
Um so yeah, so you said it tooklike about a year for you guys
to really be able to to talk.
So what was that year like, youknow, those little messages, you
know, hi here and there?
Uh, you know, how did that feel?
Where you felt you were kind ofin limbo, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
Yeah, it's great question.
Um it was, it was, it was, itwas very um, I felt like I was
on foreign land, like I was, Iwas experiencing things I had
never like.
How do you have, how do you gofrom this relationship that you
have in your mind of what um youknow being a mother is like and
(15:00):
having that relationship withyour with your child, your adult
child, and then not having thatrelationship and then stepping
into it, right?
And so how do you I mean therewere moments I was I'd want to
reach out and connect and saysomething, and I'd pull back
because I'd be like, you know, Ithey talk about often with with
(15:23):
estranged parents inreconciliation, and I'm sure on
the adult child side as well,you feel like you're walking on
eggshells.
What do I do?
It's the same.
What if you know they don't likewhat I say and then I'm back in
estrangement again and thesethings.
So it was very cautionary.
I I watched everything I said,how I said it, the tone I said
(15:45):
it in, um, how often I reachedout.
Is am I reaching out too much?
Am I not reaching out enough?
Those types of questions.
I mean, it was it was super,it's super, super hard.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Yeah, or something that used to be as simple as
sending a gift all of a suddenis a super complicated thing.
Exactly.
There's a lot of reasons why Ican accept certain things and
not accept other things.
And I don't want it to be, Idon't want that to be taken the
wrong way, you know.
And that's what's hard for me isthat I feel like everything I
(16:18):
every little thing I do might betaken, you know, personally.
Like um, and so like, you know,yeah, walking on eggshells is
definitely something that I'maccustomed to, um, especially in
this in this kind of situationthat I find myself in.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
It makes for a it makes for a very weird dynamic
when there's so much riding on asimple conversation about the
weather or somethingsuperficial.
SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was um, and I have to saytoo, you know, we even today
we're several years out fromthat place, but even today,
we've not ever sat down and hada conversation about this
estrangement.
It's never happened.
SPEAKER_03 (17:05):
Oh, okay.
It hasn't, it hasn't come up atall.
That's gotta be weird too.
See, I grew up, we didn't talkabout our problems either.
And if something happened, uh,you know, nobody said anything.
But you could tell that's whatwas constantly going through
everyone's mind all the time,and you never really knew what
anyone else was thinking.
You're trying to decipher theirbehavior and every little thing
(17:28):
that they say, and just evenbeing in that situation where
there's no actual like visibleconflict can be very emotionally
exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
It is, it is, and it's it's always the elephant in
the room, right?
And always that fear of theother shoe dropping, you know.
We don't talk about this, howcan we actually heal?
And but then if we do talk aboutthis, is the other shoe going to
drop?
Those kinds of things, it'syeah, in kind of this limbo
(18:00):
state without uh feeling likefor me, I don't feel like I have
fully moved on from thisexperience because of that,
right?
I'm very much a now I am.
Way back years ago, I was notone that would that wanted to
confront and and subtle thingsand heal things and that type of
(18:23):
being that way in the world.
And now I am, and so it's reallyhard for me to have to want to
talk about this.
How did we get there?
You know, what you know, I wantto hear it from their side of
this the story.
How did we get there so that wedon't ever repeat this again?
I want us to heal from this andbe able to move forward, but I
(18:45):
don't, you know, I I've I havedone and am still doing my own
work in in therapy around this.
Um, I don't claim to be perfect,I've not, you know, you I'm a
mom the perfect parent.
Yeah, I am far from that, butI'm continuing to do that that
(19:06):
personal work so that I can showup and be better in relationship
with my children.
But that's I that's what I cando.
It's up to her to both of them.
I have talked some of about itwith my youngest daughter, um,
but not not with my oldest.
And it's up to them on on when,if and when they're ready to
(19:27):
come to the table with that.
And I think that's somethingthat a lot of estranged parents
have such a hard time with whenit comes to reconciliation.
They're like, I they it's kindof like they either, oh great,
we're reconciled, everythingeverything back to normal.
Yeah, back to normal.
Yeah.
Or they're like, what do I dowith this?
I don't know how to be withthis, right?
SPEAKER_03 (19:50):
The change is very, very difficult.
Yeah, it's very difficult.
Yeah, it's as much as I wishthat we I could go back to the
way things work.
It's like the way things werewere one of the reasons why it
became estranged.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, I think a lot ofpeople, not just estranged
parents, but estranged adultchildren too, have a hard time
(20:13):
understanding that something hasto change.
The views expressed on the showare opinion and experience based
and are not intended as asubstitute for therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
A lot of what you're saying is is resonating with me
about how there's certain thingsyou can't discuss.
There are these elephants pluralin the room.
And you know that true healingisn't going to happen without
addressing these things.
Now, I was very fortunate in thesense that my mother and I are
(21:01):
both like obsessivecommunicators.
So if there's something thatcan't be talked about, we're
gonna have a discussion abouthow it can't be talked about.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
Has that been a component of your experience
with your daughters?
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Um it no, we there's just silence.
There's just silence about it.
Um with my oldest.
My youngest, I've um we have hadsome conversations, and she has
um indicated to me that she seesthe changes that I've made.
She understands that you knowshe and she is aware, both of
(21:41):
them are aware that I am intherapy.
Um, and she recognizes that andrecognizes that I have made
changes.
But um as far as like thedetails of why did why did you
initiate estrangement, likethose types of questions, that's
never been discussed.
(22:03):
Um, I've never asked that.
And a big piece of that is thewhole um there's a therapist, um
the ones that I talk to, and Ihad just kind of an insight to
this.
I also not only am I a therapyclient, I work with therapists.
Um, I have a lot of therapiststhat are friends.
(22:25):
Um, so I'm kind of in thatworld, and I I feel like I have
a little more insight than theaverage person would have about
psychotherapy.
And one of the things that theyshared with me when I started
going through this experiencewas it was it was so
traumatizing to me thatoftentimes, and I still have,
(22:45):
and I'm probably gonna getemotional about this.
Um I still have almost like PTSDeffects from the estrangement,
um, in that there are a lot ofthings that happen that trigger
me, and I go right back to thatfear and the um what did I do to
(23:14):
deserve this, and how do I getout of this?
Panic.
Um and so that causes me to nottalk about things, not to
initiate conversation.
If they were to initiate thatwith me, I would be open to that
conversation, but because I fearanother estrangement, I don't I
(23:40):
don't bring it up right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
I'm sorry, no, that's okay.
I'm getting emotional toobecause estrangement's very
traumatic.
Um and when you're both goingthrough this trauma completely
separate, you can't bond overit, and so you're going through
(24:08):
this really terrible thing, anduh you have to reach out to
strangers, and that's veryscary, right?
And then every time you think,Oh, I'll reach out or I'll say
something, you know, you havethat fear again.
(24:28):
It's like, what if I make thisworse?
Right, exactly.
Because if anything, you know,we don't want it to get worse,
we want it to get better, butit's like you know, finding out
what has to be done is such achallenge, especially when there
are things you just can't agreeon.
(24:49):
Sorry, I'm just gonna take aminute.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Well, this is one of those situations where I feel
kind of um uniquely qualified, Iguess maybe to speak to both of
you here because I've been stuckright in the middle of Alexis
and her mother for about thelast year or so trying to broker
(25:16):
some sort of a piece betweenthem.
And one of the things that'scome up over and over again in
conversations with both of themis trying to highlight the fact
that, like, look, both of youare going through the exact same
thing.
Your thought process is exactlythe same, you've got the same
(25:37):
resentments, like everything isthe same, but you can't seem to
see eye to eye.
Like each of you is justifiablyscared of taking the risk.
Both of you have justifiableresentments.
You're both cradling yourwounds.
(26:01):
And I think regardless of whoinitiates the estrangement, the
fact is the estrangement happensand it sucks.
It sucks really bad.
And I don't think that likesomebody initiating an
estrangement is like whatdamages or destroys a
relationship.
I think it's a symptom ofsomething that's gone horribly
(26:23):
wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (26:23):
Yes, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
You know, and hearing your perspective now
create and how Alexis is sort ofbouncing off of it, like I mean,
it it really brings me back towhat she had suggested a little
bit earlier of maybe like somesort of like role-play exercise
where the two of you can justdirectly bounce off of each
other as you know, like asurrogate mother daughter.
(26:49):
I honestly believe that thereare so many universal truths
about estrangement situationswhere I'm I'm really hoping that
both for for you and Alexis, butalso for our listeners, that
they may gain a lot ofperspective, and they definitely
see some benefit to the two ofyou hopefully just uh play
(27:13):
acting your way throughunpacking the situation.
You've got questions for yourdaughters.
I know she's got questions forher mom, but these questions up
until now it sounds like they'vebeen unasked.
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
So, I mean, I'll I'll put Alexis on the hot seat
here because I don't want toantagonize a guest, especially
one that's been so gracious toshow up here.
But you know, with Alexis, withCreed is your mom here for the
purposes of this conversation.
Whose fault is thisestrangement?
SPEAKER_03 (27:55):
I don't think I can blame any one person, to be
honest.
Like I said, it's complicated.
There are a lot of layers, a lotof things that went into it and
contributed to it.
And I felt like all of thecontributions that I felt like
all of those things accumulatedso fast that I couldn't, I had
(28:20):
no time to stop and just explainthings.
Um or I tried in little piecesand it was it wasn't
registering, they weren't reallyhearing me.
And so that was very, veryfrustrating.
But I don't think I can blameany one person.
I know I initiated it, but if Ihadn't, things would have
(28:46):
continued the way that they hadbeen for decades.
And um I needed a change formyself, even if they didn't.
I needed a change for myself,and I knew that that was going
to be difficult for everyoneelse.
Um but I can't blame any oneperson for it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Does this surprise you, Creed?
SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
Um no, I think that I think that most adult children
would probably say that.
Now, once you get to the beneaththe layers underneath, right?
Yeah.
On the surface, there's theanger and the pointing the
(29:35):
fingers and you know, and blameand and things like that.
But beneath that, I think thatall of us recognize on some
level, a relationship takes two.
Yep.
It it I don't care who whatrelationship that is, whether
it's a parent-child, a you know,employee, employer, I mean it
(29:58):
all of it, it takes two.
And so all of us have some somepart to play in the success or
demise of a relationship.
Um, but I think that withestrangement with it with
between parent-child, it's soemotionally charged, and parents
(30:19):
are dealing with their moreoften than not, unconsciously
trying to they're they'rereacting out of their
conditioning.
And yeah, they're not thinkingabout it exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
Yeah, I do the same thing, it's all you know, it's
kind of habitual.
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yes, and and it's hard for um parents to hear that
from their child that somethingI've done as a parent has harmed
you, hurt you in some way.
It's that is so hard to hear asa parent.
(31:02):
I failed and that I hurt mychild, and most parents don't
know what to do with that, youknow.
Our culture says, and especiallyfor moms, I think I can't speak
(31:24):
for dads, I don't, but I what'sbeen my experience is that it's
really shaming for a mom.
I actually was asked onoccasion, what did you do?
Yeah, to cause your daughters tonot want to talk to you, and
(31:45):
that just put the shame spiralin high gear those things, and
so but at the same time, I feellike now on this other side of
it, I can see that my daughterswent through the same thing.
What do you mean?
I can imagine them here havingsomeone ask them, what do you
mean you're not talking to yourmom?
(32:05):
Yeah, your mom.
Like, so I can see that it's allit's just it's the same coin,
it's just different one sidethan the other.
SPEAKER_03 (32:16):
Yeah, I experienced that.
Yeah, what's wrong with you?
Why did you walk away from yourfamily?
You know, uh, and your church,you know, you walked away from
everybody.
What's wrong with you?
Oh, she's gone crazy, you know,things like that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
The the shame thing I'm I'm actually finding kind of
interesting.
I'm finding it interesting for acouple of reasons.
One is Alexis, that you areeasily identifying with Creed's
shame as being valid, but I'venot seen this same kind of
reaction to your motherexperiencing this kind of shame.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
That's probably when she's describing well.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
I'm just wondering, like hearing Creed describe like
the mother's perspective.
I know you're a mom, but you'renot a mom of estranged adult
children, so I don't think youcan get it entirely.
I'm just wondering though, likehearing from a mom who's going
through probably very similarthings to your own mother, like
how, if at all, is this changingyour perspective?
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Well, I don't know.
I think maybe my religiousupbringing might have a hand in
that, just because from theirperspective, I'm seeing it's
like a prodigal daughter.
So I don't know if if the shamethat I experience, you know, has
been is the same as my you knowas my mom's.
(33:40):
I don't know what that's beenlike for her because again,
that's not really something wecan talk about for some reason.
And I wish we could.
Like you said earlier, um, youknow, I guess you were kind of
you know upset and you know,kind of stomping your feet in
(34:00):
the beginning, you didn't wantto do what your daughters had
requested, but then you got to aplace where you know you started
not understand and get to aplace where you could talk.
And I feel like that's the onlyreason I can't understand my mom
is because we can't even getthere.
(34:21):
And that's what's veryfrustrating for me.
I feel like I can understand youbecause we're standing, we're
having a conversation, you'relistening to me, I'm listening
to you.
We don't have any water underthe bridge, so we have no reason
to argue.
That's it's harder.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
I think, and and Alexis, I have to be honest, um,
you know, with my own daughters,I pre-therapy for estrangement,
I could not have had this typeof conversation with them.
Um, I couldn't have had the theconversations I have had thus
far with them without doing myown personal work.
(35:03):
I am just such an advocate formoms, and this is what I do with
my support group for moms, isI'm trying to bring them back to
stop pointing the finger at youradult children, and let's take a
look in here inside our ownhearts and find out where were
we hurt, right?
(35:24):
There was a time in my life,didn't occur to me until until
after my estrangement.
I was like, Oh, I remember atime when I was actually
estranged from my mom.
Like I you don't really, yeah,it's very common for a very long
time, but there was a time whenI was estranged from her, and so
(35:46):
I went back to that experienceof how did I feel when I told my
mom, stop, I cannot take anymore, and then I was like, Oh,
yeah, maybe that is what my ownchild is thinking, right?
(36:08):
And so when we as parents, asmoms, can get back in a way,
pull back from the child, pullback from your adult children,
and come back to your own selfand your own hurts and your own
wounds and work through thosebecause that it's that trauma in
your life.
And I when I say trauma, I meantrauma with a little T, you
know, right zones and thingslike that.
(36:31):
But right, those traumas in lifewere the fuel on how I responded
and reacted to everything mydaughters did.
Yeah.
And when I got into that andlearned more about that and how
it affected my life and the waythat I respond, then I was able
to make changes and I was morewilling to make changes.
(36:53):
And so I think that that's thepiece that I don't see a lot of
parents wanting to do.
Um, I actually kind of hear theopposite from parents.
They're like, they see theirkids going through therapy, and
so they blame the therapist.
Oh, the therapist is the one whocaused this estrangement.
The therapist is the one who'stold my child to leave me, you
know, and I'm like, thetherapist turned you into an
atheist or something like that.
(37:15):
Those kinds of things.
And not it's you know, not everytherapist is is, you know,
fantastic.
I mean, it's a like any otherprofession.
However, the majority have, youknow, they're they're working to
to make things better and toempower whomever their client
is, be it the parent or thechild.
SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:36):
So and I get that, Alexis.
It's it's when you've got thethe water under the bridge and
the history, it's really hardwhen it's hard to stay on track.
Yeah.
Right.
It's hard to stay on track whenyou feel like you're not being
heard.
SPEAKER_03 (37:58):
Thank you for listening to When the Bow
Breaks.
As always, please remember tolike, follow, and share.
Links in this week's show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (38:13):
What was it, Tina Gilbertson?
I heard her say the other day ina podcast that she does that um
acknowledgement is like catnipfor humans.
Right?
And it's like we don't have toagree and say that what our
adult children are saying isabsolute 100% correct.
(38:35):
Yeah, no.
We can acknowledge, I see thatyou're hurting.
Yes, I hear you, I hear thatyou're saying to me your hurt is
a result of my actions.
I'm not agreeing with that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
Well, that's interesting.
You're not talking aboutvalidation, this is just simple,
clear-cut acknowledgement.
I hear you, I see you.
SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Exactly.
Okay, exactly.
And that's that's can be astarting point before we can get
to validation.
Yeah, no, that's a big thing.
SPEAKER_03 (39:05):
It's such a small thing, but it's such a big
thing.
And that was that was my thing.
It was like, why don't they evenacknowledge this?
Like it felt like emotionalabandonment.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Like, I don't know if that's like you know, an
exaggeration, but that's well,that's actually that's a good
question for you for you, Creed,because this is something that
again, like me middlemanningbetween Alexis and her mom.
I hear both ends of it.
What might hold you back fromacknowledging certain things?
And I'm not talking about likethings that your daughters might
(39:38):
bring to the table, but thingswhere it's like you're a mom,
you got eyes in the back of yourhead, you've been training for
this like their whole lives,right?
You know what's going on a lotof the time before they know
what's going on.
If you see that there'ssomething that you can address,
but like you hold back for.
(40:00):
For whatever reason, like whatare some of these kind of things
that like you're notacknowledging?
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
Like, what am I not acknowledging, or what am I
holding?
Why am I holding back?
SPEAKER_03 (40:13):
I guess I guess I guess either or.
Yeah, I guess what he maybe whathe's trying to say is like, what
would be your reasons for notacknowledging something?
I guess we're just kind ofasking, like, if you could shed
some perspective.
Um sorry, I sort of acknowledgeyou.
That's okay.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
My question did get a little muddled.
Sorry, I'm under the weather.
That's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
Like, I get what you're saying.
No, I get what he's asking.
I think, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
I think um if it if it was something something that
really hit home with and there'sbecause there's always a kernel
of truth in most everything thatis said, right?
SPEAKER_03 (40:53):
And it's a matter of us saying, and and it's usually
when that kernel of truth hitsus, yeah, that we stop things
because it's like okay, thatmakes me feel a lot better
because I was like, okay, now Iknow why she just totally shuts
down if I bring this or that up.
It's like that's why she's notacknowledged.
No, that makes a lot of sense.
(41:14):
I was like, okay, it's not thatshe is totally not thinking
about it.
Maybe she totally just can't gothere, right?
You know, so maybe she's notverbally acknowledging me, but
you know, if I can maybe think,maybe she's thinking about it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Exactly.
And I can guarantee you, justlike you know, it's I hear from
moms all the time, a strangemoms, you know, my kids just off
there, you know, having thisgreat life and everything is fun
and and happy, and you know, andI'm like, uh probably not.
That's probably not exactlywhat's happening.
It may appear to be that way,but then they may it may appear
(41:50):
to them that we're off havingthe time of our lives and you
know, not having to deal withany of these issues, right?
The case, whenever we'regenerally, generally with
people, when we're pushingagainst acknowledgement and
recognition of something, it'ssomewhere within us is this
(42:12):
piece of oh no, there's there'struth to that, and that hurts,
that's touched the spot, and II'm not going there.
And that's where therapy comesin.
That's where therapy says, let'stalk about it, because you could
talk about it with yourtherapist, it's a safe let's
just help you handle it, youknow.
(42:32):
Yeah, right, exactly.
Yeah, so I don't know if thatanswered your question or not.
SPEAKER_00 (42:38):
Ace no, it that again, like it answers the
question very well because Iknow I'm sort of primarily
asking from the perspective ofsomebody who's standing between
an estranged mother anddaughter, but I mean I'm I'm
also a person with anestrangement story, and you're
shedding a lot of light onto mymom's thought process.
(42:58):
I mean, we've had the goodfortune of being able to unpack
a lot of this stuff, but there'sstill certain no-fly zones,
right?
And I think certain questions,just like certain answers, carry
with them a bit of a sting.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
So us being not directly connected to each other
and being able to explore thisstuff, like I think it's really,
really good.
Like sorry, this is a little bithard for me too emotionally.
SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Yeah, um, it is good, it's it's you're shedding
some light on a lot of things,and it's taken so long to get a
parent on the show.
It's like, you know, I didn'tknow if we just weren't reaching
out in the right places or ifthere's just a lot of
apprehension, but well, I thinkit's a lot of apprehension, and
(43:50):
I do think that there, I mean, Ihad I received this invitation,
you know, three years ago, thereis no way, there's no way I
would have ever even given itconsideration.
SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
I would have not done it because there was, I
mean, it's just so emotionallyreactive, right?
And so, I mean, there were daysI couldn't keep, I just couldn't
keep it together.
I mean, I was just sobbing fromyou know, or angry and threw
everything out the window.
I mean, I was just vacillatingbetween one emotion to the
other.
Yeah.
So it's and but the thing thatgot me to this place where I can
(44:29):
do this is all of the personalwork I did, all of the weekly,
you know, years of weeklytherapy, diving into my own
stuff.
Where, why do I do this?
Why do I think this way?
Why, what, where did I get thisperspective from?
And then I was able to get tothis place of oh, opening up to
(44:51):
being curious.
Yeah.
My children.
And this is what I try to helpmoms to understand.
This building a sense ofcuriosity is huge.
Doesn't mean you have to gothere and change things and
upend your life and all thisother stuff, but just what would
it be like if I wonder what shewould say if I did this, or I
(45:13):
wonder what this would bring.
Those that sense of curiosity iswhat then opened me up to be
able to touch the places where Ihurt my children, where I hurt
them and I brought them pain sothat I could then go in and
apologize.
SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
No, that's really big because, like you said, when
you in the absence of curiosity,you have more of like an
assumption frame of mind, andassumptions are gonna lead you
down the wrong path.
And I that's frustrating for mebecause I was raised in a way
where I was always having toguess what what everybody was
(45:54):
thinking.
I I always had to assume things,and it's a terrible, terrible
habit habit.
And so, you know, like what yousaid, instead of trying to
figure out what motives are ortrying to be, it's like, no, why
don't you just start askingyourself those questions?
Like, yeah, what could happen ifI what would happen if I do
this?
And sometimes it getsexhausting, sometimes it's
(46:18):
emotionally difficult to eventhink about the possibility of
this or that happening.
But that curiosity, like yousaid, asking those questions,
it's like, okay, well, thenthose questions start to evolve
and into deeper things.
And then you're starting to ask,well, why would I respond that
way?
Or why would she respond thatway?
(46:40):
Hmm, you know, like what'sthere's more to this.
Let's like let's figure it out.
That curiosity is reallyimportant.
And if going into therapy, whenyou have that curiosity, it can
even be fun.
It can, it can be.
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
I mean, there's times I have laughed on my the
sofa at my therapist office, andI've said, Wow, how yeah, how
did I ever even think to come tothat conclusion?
Yes, you know, I mean it waslike the aha moments, the light
bulb moments, and things likethat.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (47:15):
No, I I like that you brought up the curiosity
too, because yeah that you youarticulated that very well.
When I think back on my ownestrangement story, I knew I
wasn't ready when I couldn'teven think about what my mom was
up to, what she was all about,what she was thinking.
It did get to a point where Iwas honestly thinking about
(47:39):
okay, well, where's she at?
How's she feeling?
But to take the curiosity anglea step further, when we finally
did start talking and havingfunctional conversations, I
think a big component of thatfunctionality was the fact that
not only were we curious abouteach other, but that we were
(47:59):
expressing that curiosity abouteach other.
Yes, and that in many ways, Ithink, validated both of us
because I was so used toapproaching my mom thinking, no,
no, I know what you're allabout.
You can't explain to mesomething different.
I'm not hearing it, I know whata nasty mom you are.
SPEAKER_03 (48:19):
Yeah, we know the story, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
And I was at the same time, you know, somewhat
unfairly and ironicallyfrustrated with her because she
was looking at me and thinking,no, no, I know you better than
you know you.
I changed your diapers, youlittle shit, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (48:34):
Yeah, I remember more about your life than you
do.
SPEAKER_00 (48:36):
But when we got to actually talking like actual
people, we gained such anappreciation of each other, and
I came to realize something thatI don't know if your daughters
have expressed this to you, butthis is something that I had to
express to my mom, and it wasthe most difficult but
meaningful thing in the worldfor me to get to the place where
(48:58):
I realized that all these yearsI'd been taking my mom's
inventory and thinking like allthe ways in which I had
disappointed her.
It had never occurred to me thator sorry, that she had
disappointed me.
It had never occurred to me thatI had also disappointed her.
It wasn't just a case of herbeing less than ideal of a mom,
(49:22):
I was less than ideal of a kid,and I don't want to like get too
far down the rabbit hole ofplugging my other podcast, but I
mean I I I did an episodewriting about how my mom was so
much more than the labels that Ihad assigned to her, she was
actually a dynamic person, andwhereas I had assigned labels
(49:43):
like failure and abuser andinconsiderate to her, really the
labels that should have beenassigned were things like
trying, growing, hurting, and umI don't know where your
daughters are at exactly, but Ifeel fairly comfortable speaking
(50:06):
on their behalf.
That like somewhere in therethey see these things in you
too, and you don't have to havelike all your things figured
out.
You're putting in an effort andyou're being open about that
effort, and I think that is socommendable.
SPEAKER_03 (50:27):
Yeah, it's not easy.
SPEAKER_00 (50:31):
I don't think that um most of us doubt the love
that our family members have forus or that we have for them.
I think something that's toooften not expressed is that it's
not just a case of hey, I loveyou, but it should be a case of
I need you.
You're essential, you're notoptional.
SPEAKER_03 (50:49):
Right.
Yeah.
Not on some level to do less orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (50:54):
I I think that a lot of the hurt comes out of the
fact that you are essential, butin some ways their ability to
navigate you kind of wasn'tthere, and maybe like that
dominated their perspective overtheir ability or their their
(51:15):
need to have you around.
Like that that pull in twoseparate directions, it it's
powerful and it's damaging.
I guess I'm not trying to speaktoo much in circles, but you
know, this is emotional stuff,and I feel like you know, I want
(51:35):
to just reach through the screenand say, I love you, mom, on
their behalf.
SPEAKER_01 (51:39):
Thank you.
Um I think that's that has thathit home.
Um because it's I I no one wakesup one morning and says, Oh, I
think I'm just going to estrangefrom everyone today.
That's not how it works.
(52:00):
And I know that me as a parent,I was a single parent for a
number of years, and um I was insurvival mode a lot of those
years.
And if I could go back andchange things, I've always said
(52:25):
my biggest regret was the waythat I parented my children.
And if I could go back and havea do-over, I'd do it in a nano
of a second.
I would redo everything, but Ican't.
And I'm a human being withfeelings just like my children
(52:46):
are, and I just hope that oneday they can be at the place
where they understand that theirmom tried, and I did the best
that I could with theinformation I had at the time,
and the only thing that I can donow having more information is
(53:09):
to do it differently movingforward.
And if there's one thing that Icould say to all adult children
who have estranged from theirparents, is to maybe one day be
able to come to the place whereyou can see your parent as a
(53:29):
human being who has faults, whotries the best way they know how
to be a parent.
No one sends us home with aninstruction manual on how to
parent children.
Yeah.
And we make a plethora ofmistakes.
(53:51):
Um, but we try and we do thebest that we can.
Um, that being said, I can alsosay that I hope that estranged
parents can understand that yourchild is a human being too, that
your child has suffered andcontinues to suffer through this
(54:12):
estrangement, whether you see itor not.
And that if you can get to aplace where you can recognize
that and hold that front andcenter with everything that you
do, healing can happen.
(54:37):
It's not gonna happen overnight,and it's not gonna happen in two
days and a week or what haveyou, but it will happen.
But we're all human beings, andhuman beings are foul.
We just none of us are perfect.
Thank you for sharing that, um,AC.
(54:57):
I I hope that one day my mychildren can come to that place
where they can understand me asa as a person who's tried and
that I can be a needed andwelcomed part in their life.
SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
I honestly like I I hope for their sake that they
can get to that place too,because I know how much personal
healing only comes as a resultof these types of realizations.
It's not about excusing the factthat you know mistakes were
(55:35):
made.
It just I understand, I think,like you say, there's a place
where these mistakes are comingfrom.
They come sometimes from hurt.
More often than not, they comejust from inexperience.
Like all of us are parents.
I know that it's not a questionof if I'm messing up my kids,
(55:55):
but how I'm messing up my kids.
SPEAKER_03 (55:58):
Yeah, and how to repair it later.
SPEAKER_00 (56:00):
So I think I gotta bring a lot of that to the table
too, thinking like if my momwent through what I'm going
through with my kids, oh man.
I I I'd hate to think that theday comes when they're my kids
come to me, they take myinventory and say, This is where
(56:20):
we part ways.
SPEAKER_02 (56:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (56:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:26):
I mean, I feel kind of bad.
I feel like this thisconversation in certain ways has
been very disjointed, but I meanthat's kind of how the subject
matter is.
It's not easy grounds to cover.
There's so many, so manyconfusing elements that are
bouncing off against each other.
SPEAKER_03 (56:42):
Exactly.
Yeah, and like as an estrangedadult child, you know, with
kids, you know, I that runsthrough my mind all the time.
How do I make sure that thisdoesn't have to happen to our
family?
And like you said, making thosechanges, it's little steps, it's
it's very gradual.
It's it's it feels so slowsometimes, you know.
(57:07):
Some, but then every now andthen you'll hit like a huge
milestone.
And I always just say, when youdo hit those milestones, take
time to enjoy it and appreciatethe work that you've done
because it is hard to get there.
It is hard for some people, likeyou said, even just to go to
counseling and get help if theyneed it.
It is hard work.
(57:27):
Yes.
Um, it doesn't stop.
I feel like it just it's alwaysgoing on in your head.
You know, it's it's obsessive,but it's you know, again, it's
not something that we do becausewe just feel like, oh yeah, I'll
just get rid of everything andyou know, we're gonna go off and
be fine and be happy.
And no, there's there's there'sreal work involved.
(57:49):
And um, but the payoff, I mean,you'll get as much out of it as
you put into it.
I think, you know, whether ornot you're able to, you know,
establish reconnection with theperson that you're estranged
from, you're gonna learn andgrow a lot and bring more
positive things into the newrelationships that you make.
SPEAKER_02 (58:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (58:08):
Um, so you know, and I wanted everyone to kind of,
you know, unthink about thattoo.
You know, not all of us aregonna reach a point of
reconciliation.
SPEAKER_02 (58:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (58:17):
And that's not something some of us like to
think about.
Um, but I think that also justlearning to be content with
where we're at and learning tounderstand, okay, this is where
I'm at.
It's okay, let's just keepmoving forward, let's just keep
doing the work, just keepgrowing and uh, you know, see
where it takes us.
SPEAKER_01 (58:38):
Baby steps.
I'm always baby steps.
Yep.
Just putting one foot in frontof the other, doing the next
best thing, right?
The next right thing right here,right now, instead of worrying
about, you know, six months downthe road, a year down the road,
it's like right here, right now,what can I do today for myself?
(58:58):
To show a littleself-compassion, right?
Because I beat myself up a lot.
Um based on, you know, as Isaid, how I raise my children.
So exercising a little bit of umself-compassion.
And then when I can have someself-compassion for myself, then
that becomes easier to give thatcompassion to my daughters.
SPEAKER_03 (59:18):
Yeah, it really does come.
It sounds so cheesy, but itreally does come from within.
SPEAKER_02 (59:23):
It does.
SPEAKER_03 (59:23):
You you really have to do the inner work if you want
to see external changes.
Exactly.
unknown (59:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (59:29):
That's just what I that's what I've learned.
That is that's not justsomething I just say like I've
learned I've learned that thehard way over and over.
You have to do the work if youwant things to change.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (59:39):
If we, you know, that whole definition of
insanity, if we continue to dothe same thing, yeah, I mean,
that's not going to bring anychanges, anything different.
Right.
You know, we have to change inorder to have something
different.
SPEAKER_03 (59:53):
So I had a question.
Do you think it do you thinkthat your your kids will listen
to this podcast?
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
I I will share it with them.
I hope that they do.
Um I I think that I think theywill.
Um what would you like to say tothem if they were listening?
I love them and I am so sorryfor ever having imposed any
(01:00:21):
work.
And I hope that we can moveforward in a healthy way that
will sustain us for the rest ofour lives in a way that works,
that is meaningful and healthyfor all of us.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:38):
And they had the support of the show.
Yeah, everyone who comes on theshow is like family to us.
Um I can't express how much thishas positively changed our life,
this little show that we startedabout estrangement.
We had no idea what this wouldbecome.
And uh I want to say thank youas we wrap this up.
(01:01:01):
Um, AC, do you want to have doyou have anything else you want
to bring to the table before wewrap it up?
Any other questions you have forCreed or me?
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:10):
No, there's just one quick thing I want to mention,
maybe possibly in passing.
Anybody who's listening to this,feel free to reach out to the
show if you've got questions,either as a strange child, a
strange parent, a strangesibling.
Uh if we can't personallyaddress this stuff, we can put
you in touch with somebody,hopefully, who can.
(01:01:32):
All of us, I think, are willingto make ourselves available as
surrogates.
To anybody who's got questions.
And um yeah, that's basically mylittle piece.
And I also want to give Creed anopportunity to share any
resources or or whatnot that shethinks are useful.
And of course, we will includeany links she mentions in this
(01:01:54):
week's show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:56):
Sure.
Um, I one thing that helped me alot was working, um, listening
to Dr.
Coleman, Joshua Coleman, um is auh therapist, uh clinical
psychologist that works withEstrange Parents.
He has a free uh QA session hedoes on every Monday, and that
was really helpful for me in thebeginning.
Um, of course, lots of um onlinesupport groups as well is was
(01:02:20):
helpful.
Um also I had a book, two booksthat I um would like to
recommend as well.
Um is one was When Parents Hurtby Dr.
Joshua Coleman, and the other isFault Lines um by Carl Um
Pilmar, I believe is how you sayhis last name.
And um Tina Gilberson also has apodcast that um it's called The
(01:02:42):
Reconnection Club, and she sheoffers a lot of um wonderful,
wonderful advice um for forparents and adult children.
Yeah, she's great.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:54):
Yeah, I know her.
Yeah, she actually, I'm gonnasay this because this will force
me to put this episode outbecause it's gonna be really
good.
Her episode with our show is inthe banks right now.
Um, we are working on pullingall that.
Uh, we're having a little bit ofissues with some of our computer
and having to move and blah,blah, blah.
We don't need to get into it.
But um, she's very good.
(01:03:15):
Uh, she has a lot of goodinformation for parents
specifically.
Uh, so yeah, check her out.
Sorry, I just didn't want tointerrupt, but yeah, I just
wanted to clarify.
Yeah, she's great.
She's great.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:26):
Yeah, yeah.
But I think those are those werethe things that helped me.
Um, I just I, you know, I gotcurious, I reached out for
support, I looked for support ina way that, you know, I can't be
the only person on this planetexperiencing this, right?
And so I'm so when when I found,thank you, AC, for reaching out.
When I found your podcast, I waslike, oh my gosh, this is
(01:03:48):
wonderful that you guys havethis and that you're open to
having parents come on as well,that it's not just for estranged
adult children, but alsoparents.
And I think that I'm hoping thatwith me being here today will
help open the doors for some umother parents to come on and
share their story.
(01:04:08):
It's through sharing our storiesthat we make connections.
SPEAKER_03 (01:04:11):
Yes, yeah.
Yeah.
So if you're an estranged parentand you're listening, please,
please, please share, share,share.
Uh, we need to get the word outto more parents.
Yes, when the bow breaks podcastis not just for adult children,
it's for anybody experiencingany level of estrangement.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:29):
Siblings, marriage, you name it.
SPEAKER_03 (01:04:32):
Anything.
Yeah, this is meant to be aresource for anybody experience
experiencing estrangement.
So, yeah, share it with anybodyand everybody.
Estrangement's more common thanyou think.
Like you said, you experiencedestrangement, didn't really
realize it, you know, untilyou're older.
So, yeah, share, share, share.
Um, if you want moreinformation, you can go to our
(01:04:52):
website, wtbbpod.com, and uhwhich is a fish a Kingfisher
Media Production.
So uh we have a Facebook page ifyou want more information about
Kingfisher Media Productions.
Uh so you can visit us there.
Um trying to think, is thereanything else?
Uh this was a really greatepisode, Creed.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
(01:05:14):
Um, again, I can't say itenough, said it too much
already, and not too much, butyou know what I mean.
Uh we really appreciate youbeing on the show.
And I hope that this episodewill um help a lot of parents um
and a lot of adult children too.
So uh thank you for listening toWhen the Bow Breaks podcast.
(01:05:34):
Uh, we will see you next time.
The following is the Kingfisher Media Podcast.
SPEAKER_00 (00:20):
You're listening to When the Bell Breaks, I'm your
host, AC Fisher, and with metoday is my co-host, Alexis
Arrollin.
Our guest today is Creed Revere.
Creed, welcome to the show.
SPEAKER_01 (00:33):
Thanks so much.
I'm grateful to be here.
Thank you.
SPEAKER_03 (00:36):
Welcome.
Well, I have to say I'm reallyexcited to have you because
right off the bat, I just wantto let everyone know that you
are our first parent, estrangedparent that we've had on the
show.
So a very extra special welcometo you for offering your time
(00:56):
and uh for letting yourselfbecome vulnerable during this
time so we can talk about someof these issues.
So thank you very, very, verymuch for being here.
We really appreciate uh yourpresence here with us today.
So I wanted to make sure that Igot that across to everyone.
SPEAKER_02 (01:13):
Thanks a lot.
SPEAKER_03 (01:14):
Um so really quickly, can you tell us a
little bit about how you heardabout the show and why you are
here today?
SPEAKER_01 (01:23):
Sure.
Um AC contacted me.
Um, he found my page on Facebookthat I have for Estrange Moms.
So I have a page and a supportgroup through Facebook.
And so that's how he located me.
He sent an email and um asked ifI myself or anyone in my support
group would be willing to comeon the show.
(01:44):
And I said sure.
SPEAKER_03 (01:46):
So that's why I made my way here.
So we had a chat with you and wetalked about some things.
Uh, we could have talked allday.
Um, I felt like we had a lot incommon, even though we're kind
of on different ends of things.
Um, so I kind of wanted to talka little bit about that.
(02:08):
So you're an estranged mom.
Can you you don't have to, youknow, spend this whole entire
episode talking about thedetails of your experience, but
you know, could you share alittle bit just to provide some
context for us?
SPEAKER_01 (02:20):
Sure.
I'm actually uh reconciled withmy my two daughters.
I have two children and twodaughters.
Um, and I was um estranged fromthem for with one about a year
and the other one about twoyears.
Um, and that was about fouryears ago now.
So um, and it came about whatappeared to be in the beginning
(02:47):
very unexpectedly, you know, Iwas um pretty much blown out of
the water completely in panicshock mode when it first
happened.
Um, and looking back on it now,I realized that wasn't wasn't
out of the blue.
There's always a lead up to it.
So um, but it was a hard, it wasa hard, hard year in two years
(03:12):
with with my oldest daughter.
Um, and something that I can saynow was the most difficult road
I have ever traveled in my 52years of living.
So it was very hard.
Um, but we're we're on the otherside of that.
And so I have I have aperspective that's pretty wide
(03:35):
in that um, you know, I've I'veexperienced estrangement, um, we
have reconciled, and I can saythat reconciliation is not
always what we think it may be,um, as moms, especially, or as a
parent coming out ofestrangement.
Yeah.
This um belief that we'll comeback and be the way things used
to be, and that's not the case.
(03:57):
Um, so so yeah, I mean, I can gointo as much detail as you want.
I'm I'm open to sharing mystory, but just let me know how
much more you would like for meto share.
SPEAKER_00 (04:11):
The first question that kind of jumps out at me is,
you know, when you talk aboutthe reconciliation and things
not going back to like the waythey were, I can understand this
being uh kind of likesurprising, maybe for all
parties involved, but I can'thelp but wonder like, is this
(04:32):
something that is disappointingthat that things didn't go back
to business as usual?
SPEAKER_01 (04:39):
Well, I think that's it's twofold.
Disappointing in that um I Idon't feel as close to my
children as I once thought thatI was.
Um, and so we've had to redefineour relationship with one
another.
And so that part'sdisappointing.
(05:02):
The other side of that same coinis it's refreshing to know that
we can have a do-over, if youwill, um, but in a in a more
healthy way of being inrelationship with one another,
um, for both, you know, as asmom and daughter, but also me as
(05:23):
an individual, them as anindividual as well.
So I think it's a it's a mixedbag, as most of estrangement is
and reconciliation can be aswell.
So does that answer yourquestion?
SPEAKER_00 (05:35):
No, it actually answers it very well.
You know, like sorry, I don'twant to like completely hijack
the interview here, but you'veyou've you've immediately piqued
my curiosity here because Isomewhat recently-ish reconciled
with my mom after six years ofof no contact.
(05:56):
And you know, on the kids' endof the equation, I I feel a lot
of what you're saying, you know,like we've come back together,
but things aren't the way theywere.
But I can't say it's a goodthing or a bad thing, it's just
a thing.
But I'm I often get stuck inthis frame of mind where I
wonder, like, if I had theability to communicate with
(06:18):
myself pre-estrangement, youknow, what kind of message would
I send back through time thatmight help me kind of cope with
the process?
Is there any of that sort ofthought pattern with you, like
in in relation to how youapproached your relationships
with your daughterspre-estrangement?
SPEAKER_01 (06:41):
I don't know.
I mean, obviously, there arethings that I would do
differently and would like toget a message out um to myself
and to them if I could go backin time, so to speak.
But I don't think that there'sum, you know, it's such a such a
convoluted experience.
(07:03):
There's and it's so emotional.
There are just so many layers toestrangement that it's hard to
say, well, if I could have justsaid this to myself, you know,
it would have fixed everything,or it would have never happened,
or it would have been different,or we wouldn't have lasted as
long, or you know, those typesof things.
(07:24):
It's really for me, it's reallyhard to say that there's just
one or two layers to this.
That's just for me, there's so,so many layers.
Yeah.
I know that that's not reallyanswering your question, but I I
don't think that for me, um,there's any one or two things
that I could have gone back andsaid and it would have turned
(07:47):
out any different.
SPEAKER_00 (07:48):
I think that's a good thing.
SPEAKER_01 (07:48):
Yeah, same, same cookie, different shape.
SPEAKER_00 (07:51):
I feel like you've done a great job of answering
the question, actually.
SPEAKER_02 (07:54):
Okay, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (07:56):
I don't think that there is a clear answer.
And I think that for anybodydealing with estrangement in any
capacity, I don't think thatthey can really fully absorb how
complicated these relationshipsare.
SPEAKER_03 (08:08):
Yeah, because we get a lot of those questions of why
can't you just talk?
Why can't you just it's like youdon't really understand it
really is complicated and it'shard to sift through.
And that's why, you know, a lotof us end up in counseling
because we need someone to kindof help us figure this stuff out
because it is hard to answerbecause it's a mixed bag, it's
(08:30):
complicated, there are lots oflayers, and it it takes time to
even get to a point ofreconciliation.
And that was another question II had for you is that you know,
how how did you get there?
I mean, who if you could answerreally quickly, who initiated
the no contact?
Because that kind of puts thingsin perspective for uh AC and I.
(08:55):
Um, because his mother initiatedno contact with him.
I initiated no contact with myparents.
Sometimes it matters, sometimesit doesn't, but I'm just
curious.
Um, you know, who initiated nocontact and then how did you
reach a point of reconciliationwith them?
SPEAKER_01 (09:12):
Yeah.
No, it's a great question.
Um, my daughters initiated theno contact.
So um I had prior to my umimmediately prior to the
estrangement, I had gonethrough, I was in a super
stressful time in my life.
I was going through um aseparation with my partner.
(09:32):
I had a super high stress jobthat was just making me crazy.
Um, and my partner also foundout um they had cancer um in the
midst of all of this.
So there there were so manyemotions going on.
And then about um it was rightafter the first of the year, um,
we're almost actually at thatanniversary date having this
(09:53):
conversation today.
Um wow.
Yeah, I didn't happyanniversary.
I didn't realize that until justnow.
Um but and then and then I itjust stopped.
There was um there was aconversation that um I had with
my daughter via text, my oldestdaughter via text, right before
the estrangement happened.
And she was concerned about myemotional state due to the
(10:17):
stress and things that I wasunder.
And um she asked me to take anaction that I was not willing to
take.
And it was for it wasn'tsomething that she wanted for
herself, it was something shewanted for me, and I wasn't
willing to do that.
Um and within a few days, I wascompletely cut off.
(10:37):
Um, no responses to phone calls,text messages, you know, blocked
from Facebook, all social media.
I just absolutely no contact.
Um, and so it that went on forabout six months or so, where I
just had zero contact with them.
Um, I did know through myparents that they were in
(11:01):
contact with my parents, so Iknew that they were okay.
But that was one of my biggestthings that I faced in the midst
of my estrangement was theconcern of are my kids okay?
Yeah, because it went fromregular contact to nothing
overnight, seemingly overnight.
So um that happened, and thenabout the six-month mark, my
(11:24):
youngest one um she started torespond to some text that I
sent.
And we very, very sparsecommunication with her, and then
that eventually led tocommunication um through email
with my oldest, although thosethose communication um exchanges
(11:47):
were not pleasant, they werevery, very um taxing.
Um, and I'll just leave it atthat um with me.
So emotional.
My went on for about two years,my oldest, and for my youngest
one, it was about I wouldventure to say eight to ten
months was before we reallystarted to to be able to sit
(12:09):
down and actually haveconversations about about
important things.
Um and then the um thatreconciliation piece came in
when um you know, I think myyoungest kind of played a hand
in helping me to reconcile withmy oldest.
Um, I think that I didn't, if Idid, I did not intend to put her
(12:31):
in the middle of any of that,but I do think that that there
was a piece to that.
Um, and my oldest one thenreached out to me.
I had just completely backed offfrom her um and just did not
have any communication at all.
And she reached out to me at onepoint um about it was about my
grandson um meeting to have ummeeting for a meal for his
(12:56):
birthday.
So that's how we started to getback into communication.
And even after that, it stilltook almost another year before
we could, I felt like have anactual conversation.
SPEAKER_03 (13:10):
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like, yeah, I mean, thisis something I haven't really
talked about on the show yet,but I I I guess I should start
talking about it now becausethis is totally relevant to this
episode.
Uh I started to havecommunication with my mom uh
this past summer.
Uh, she reached out to me.
(13:32):
Uh, it was kind of funny.
It wasn't like an act, shedidn't actually say anything,
she just sent me a link.
So I thought, oh, that's youknow.
Um, but we're in very lowcontact, like we have contact
with each other.
But yeah, we're not at thatplace where we can have a
conversation or even agree onwhat to talk about because there
are so many things that are offthe table for both of us.
(13:54):
We haven't really found anythingwhere we can meet in the middle.
And poor AC is kind of he's beenkind of mediating for us uh this
entire time.
And so I I I can only imaginehow frustrating it is for
someone to be in the middle likethat.
Yes.
Um, but anyway, I guess what I'mgetting at is yeah, I'm kind of
(14:17):
going through that myselfpersonally.
Um so yeah, so you said it tooklike about a year for you guys
to really be able to to talk.
So what was that year like, youknow, those little messages, you
know, hi here and there?
Uh, you know, how did that feel?
Where you felt you were kind ofin limbo, I suppose.
SPEAKER_01 (14:37):
Yeah, it's great question.
Um it was, it was, it was, itwas very um, I felt like I was
on foreign land, like I was, Iwas experiencing things I had
never like.
How do you have, how do you gofrom this relationship that you
have in your mind of what um youknow being a mother is like and
(15:00):
having that relationship withyour with your child, your adult
child, and then not having thatrelationship and then stepping
into it, right?
And so how do you I mean therewere moments I was I'd want to
reach out and connect and saysomething, and I'd pull back
because I'd be like, you know, Ithey talk about often with with
(15:23):
estranged parents inreconciliation, and I'm sure on
the adult child side as well,you feel like you're walking on
eggshells.
What do I do?
It's the same.
What if you know they don't likewhat I say and then I'm back in
estrangement again and thesethings.
So it was very cautionary.
I I watched everything I said,how I said it, the tone I said
(15:45):
it in, um, how often I reachedout.
Is am I reaching out too much?
Am I not reaching out enough?
Those types of questions.
I mean, it was it was super,it's super, super hard.
SPEAKER_03 (15:54):
Yeah, or something that used to be as simple as
sending a gift all of a suddenis a super complicated thing.
Exactly.
There's a lot of reasons why Ican accept certain things and
not accept other things.
And I don't want it to be, Idon't want that to be taken the
wrong way, you know.
And that's what's hard for me isthat I feel like everything I
(16:18):
every little thing I do might betaken, you know, personally.
Like um, and so like, you know,yeah, walking on eggshells is
definitely something that I'maccustomed to, um, especially in
this in this kind of situationthat I find myself in.
SPEAKER_00 (16:33):
It makes for a it makes for a very weird dynamic
when there's so much riding on asimple conversation about the
weather or somethingsuperficial.
SPEAKER_01 (16:44):
Exactly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it was um, and I have to saytoo, you know, we even today
we're several years out fromthat place, but even today,
we've not ever sat down and hada conversation about this
estrangement.
It's never happened.
SPEAKER_03 (17:05):
Oh, okay.
It hasn't, it hasn't come up atall.
That's gotta be weird too.
See, I grew up, we didn't talkabout our problems either.
And if something happened, uh,you know, nobody said anything.
But you could tell that's whatwas constantly going through
everyone's mind all the time,and you never really knew what
anyone else was thinking.
You're trying to decipher theirbehavior and every little thing
(17:28):
that they say, and just evenbeing in that situation where
there's no actual like visibleconflict can be very emotionally
exhausting.
SPEAKER_01 (17:38):
It is, it is, and it's it's always the elephant in
the room, right?
And always that fear of theother shoe dropping, you know.
We don't talk about this, howcan we actually heal?
And but then if we do talk aboutthis, is the other shoe going to
drop?
Those kinds of things, it'syeah, in kind of this limbo
(18:00):
state without uh feeling likefor me, I don't feel like I have
fully moved on from thisexperience because of that,
right?
I'm very much a now I am.
Way back years ago, I was notone that would that wanted to
confront and and subtle thingsand heal things and that type of
(18:23):
being that way in the world.
And now I am, and so it's reallyhard for me to have to want to
talk about this.
How did we get there?
You know, what you know, I wantto hear it from their side of
this the story.
How did we get there so that wedon't ever repeat this again?
I want us to heal from this andbe able to move forward, but I
(18:45):
don't, you know, I I've I havedone and am still doing my own
work in in therapy around this.
Um, I don't claim to be perfect,I've not, you know, you I'm a
mom the perfect parent.
Yeah, I am far from that, butI'm continuing to do that that
(19:06):
personal work so that I can showup and be better in relationship
with my children.
But that's I that's what I cando.
It's up to her to both of them.
I have talked some of about itwith my youngest daughter, um,
but not not with my oldest.
And it's up to them on on when,if and when they're ready to
(19:27):
come to the table with that.
And I think that's somethingthat a lot of estranged parents
have such a hard time with whenit comes to reconciliation.
They're like, I they it's kindof like they either, oh great,
we're reconciled, everythingeverything back to normal.
Yeah, back to normal.
Yeah.
Or they're like, what do I dowith this?
I don't know how to be withthis, right?
SPEAKER_03 (19:50):
The change is very, very difficult.
Yeah, it's very difficult.
Yeah, it's as much as I wishthat we I could go back to the
way things work.
It's like the way things werewere one of the reasons why it
became estranged.
Exactly.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, I think a lot ofpeople, not just estranged
parents, but estranged adultchildren too, have a hard time
(20:13):
understanding that something hasto change.
The views expressed on the showare opinion and experience based
and are not intended as asubstitute for therapy.
SPEAKER_00 (20:40):
A lot of what you're saying is is resonating with me
about how there's certain thingsyou can't discuss.
There are these elephants pluralin the room.
And you know that true healingisn't going to happen without
addressing these things.
Now, I was very fortunate in thesense that my mother and I are
(21:01):
both like obsessivecommunicators.
So if there's something thatcan't be talked about, we're
gonna have a discussion abouthow it can't be talked about.
SPEAKER_01 (21:13):
Okay.
SPEAKER_00 (21:14):
Has that been a component of your experience
with your daughters?
SPEAKER_01 (21:19):
Um it no, we there's just silence.
There's just silence about it.
Um with my oldest.
My youngest, I've um we have hadsome conversations, and she has
um indicated to me that she seesthe changes that I've made.
She understands that you knowshe and she is aware, both of
(21:41):
them are aware that I am intherapy.
Um, and she recognizes that andrecognizes that I have made
changes.
But um as far as like thedetails of why did why did you
initiate estrangement, likethose types of questions, that's
never been discussed.
(22:03):
Um, I've never asked that.
And a big piece of that is thewhole um there's a therapist, um
the ones that I talk to, and Ihad just kind of an insight to
this.
I also not only am I a therapyclient, I work with therapists.
Um, I have a lot of therapiststhat are friends.
(22:25):
Um, so I'm kind of in thatworld, and I I feel like I have
a little more insight than theaverage person would have about
psychotherapy.
And one of the things that theyshared with me when I started
going through this experiencewas it was it was so
traumatizing to me thatoftentimes, and I still have,
(22:45):
and I'm probably gonna getemotional about this.
Um I still have almost like PTSDeffects from the estrangement,
um, in that there are a lot ofthings that happen that trigger
me, and I go right back to thatfear and the um what did I do to
(23:14):
deserve this, and how do I getout of this?
Panic.
Um and so that causes me to nottalk about things, not to
initiate conversation.
If they were to initiate thatwith me, I would be open to that
conversation, but because I fearanother estrangement, I don't I
(23:40):
don't bring it up right.
SPEAKER_03 (23:42):
I'm sorry, no, that's okay.
I'm getting emotional toobecause estrangement's very
traumatic.
Um and when you're both goingthrough this trauma completely
separate, you can't bond overit, and so you're going through
(24:08):
this really terrible thing, anduh you have to reach out to
strangers, and that's veryscary, right?
And then every time you think,Oh, I'll reach out or I'll say
something, you know, you havethat fear again.
(24:28):
It's like, what if I make thisworse?
Right, exactly.
Because if anything, you know,we don't want it to get worse,
we want it to get better, butit's like you know, finding out
what has to be done is such achallenge, especially when there
are things you just can't agreeon.
(24:49):
Sorry, I'm just gonna take aminute.
SPEAKER_00 (24:52):
Well, this is one of those situations where I feel
kind of um uniquely qualified, Iguess maybe to speak to both of
you here because I've been stuckright in the middle of Alexis
and her mother for about thelast year or so trying to broker
(25:16):
some sort of a piece betweenthem.
And one of the things that'scome up over and over again in
conversations with both of themis trying to highlight the fact
that, like, look, both of youare going through the exact same
thing.
Your thought process is exactlythe same, you've got the same
(25:37):
resentments, like everything isthe same, but you can't seem to
see eye to eye.
Like each of you is justifiablyscared of taking the risk.
Both of you have justifiableresentments.
You're both cradling yourwounds.
(26:01):
And I think regardless of whoinitiates the estrangement, the
fact is the estrangement happensand it sucks.
It sucks really bad.
And I don't think that likesomebody initiating an
estrangement is like whatdamages or destroys a
relationship.
I think it's a symptom ofsomething that's gone horribly
(26:23):
wrong.
SPEAKER_01 (26:23):
Yes, yeah, right.
SPEAKER_00 (26:25):
You know, and hearing your perspective now
create and how Alexis is sort ofbouncing off of it, like I mean,
it it really brings me back towhat she had suggested a little
bit earlier of maybe like somesort of like role-play exercise
where the two of you can justdirectly bounce off of each
other as you know, like asurrogate mother daughter.
(26:49):
I honestly believe that thereare so many universal truths
about estrangement situationswhere I'm I'm really hoping that
both for for you and Alexis, butalso for our listeners, that
they may gain a lot ofperspective, and they definitely
see some benefit to the two ofyou hopefully just uh play
(27:13):
acting your way throughunpacking the situation.
You've got questions for yourdaughters.
I know she's got questions forher mom, but these questions up
until now it sounds like they'vebeen unasked.
SPEAKER_03 (27:25):
Yeah, yeah.
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (27:29):
So, I mean, I'll I'll put Alexis on the hot seat
here because I don't want toantagonize a guest, especially
one that's been so gracious toshow up here.
But you know, with Alexis, withCreed is your mom here for the
purposes of this conversation.
Whose fault is thisestrangement?
SPEAKER_03 (27:55):
I don't think I can blame any one person, to be
honest.
Like I said, it's complicated.
There are a lot of layers, a lotof things that went into it and
contributed to it.
And I felt like all of thecontributions that I felt like
all of those things accumulatedso fast that I couldn't, I had
(28:20):
no time to stop and just explainthings.
Um or I tried in little piecesand it was it wasn't
registering, they weren't reallyhearing me.
And so that was very, veryfrustrating.
But I don't think I can blameany one person.
I know I initiated it, but if Ihadn't, things would have
(28:46):
continued the way that they hadbeen for decades.
And um I needed a change formyself, even if they didn't.
I needed a change for myself,and I knew that that was going
to be difficult for everyoneelse.
Um but I can't blame any oneperson for it.
SPEAKER_00 (29:11):
Does this surprise you, Creed?
SPEAKER_01 (29:14):
Um no, I think that I think that most adult children
would probably say that.
Now, once you get to the beneaththe layers underneath, right?
Yeah.
On the surface, there's theanger and the pointing the
(29:35):
fingers and you know, and blameand and things like that.
But beneath that, I think thatall of us recognize on some
level, a relationship takes two.
Yep.
It it I don't care who whatrelationship that is, whether
it's a parent-child, a you know,employee, employer, I mean it
(29:58):
all of it, it takes two.
And so all of us have some somepart to play in the success or
demise of a relationship.
Um, but I think that withestrangement with it with
between parent-child, it's soemotionally charged, and parents
(30:19):
are dealing with their moreoften than not, unconsciously
trying to they're they'rereacting out of their
conditioning.
And yeah, they're not thinkingabout it exactly.
SPEAKER_03 (30:34):
Yeah, I do the same thing, it's all you know, it's
kind of habitual.
SPEAKER_01 (30:39):
Yes, and and it's hard for um parents to hear that
from their child that somethingI've done as a parent has harmed
you, hurt you in some way.
It's that is so hard to hear asa parent.
(31:02):
I failed and that I hurt mychild, and most parents don't
know what to do with that, youknow.
Our culture says, and especiallyfor moms, I think I can't speak
(31:24):
for dads, I don't, but I what'sbeen my experience is that it's
really shaming for a mom.
I actually was asked onoccasion, what did you do?
Yeah, to cause your daughters tonot want to talk to you, and
(31:45):
that just put the shame spiralin high gear those things, and
so but at the same time, I feellike now on this other side of
it, I can see that my daughterswent through the same thing.
What do you mean?
I can imagine them here havingsomeone ask them, what do you
mean you're not talking to yourmom?
(32:05):
Yeah, your mom.
Like, so I can see that it's allit's just it's the same coin,
it's just different one sidethan the other.
SPEAKER_03 (32:16):
Yeah, I experienced that.
Yeah, what's wrong with you?
Why did you walk away from yourfamily?
You know, uh, and your church,you know, you walked away from
everybody.
What's wrong with you?
Oh, she's gone crazy, you know,things like that.
SPEAKER_00 (32:29):
The the shame thing I'm I'm actually finding kind of
interesting.
I'm finding it interesting for acouple of reasons.
One is Alexis, that you areeasily identifying with Creed's
shame as being valid, but I'venot seen this same kind of
reaction to your motherexperiencing this kind of shame.
SPEAKER_02 (32:53):
That's probably when she's describing well.
SPEAKER_00 (32:56):
I'm just wondering, like hearing Creed describe like
the mother's perspective.
I know you're a mom, but you'renot a mom of estranged adult
children, so I don't think youcan get it entirely.
I'm just wondering though, likehearing from a mom who's going
through probably very similarthings to your own mother, like
how, if at all, is this changingyour perspective?
SPEAKER_03 (33:20):
Well, I don't know.
I think maybe my religiousupbringing might have a hand in
that, just because from theirperspective, I'm seeing it's
like a prodigal daughter.
So I don't know if if the shamethat I experience, you know, has
been is the same as my you knowas my mom's.
(33:40):
I don't know what that's beenlike for her because again,
that's not really something wecan talk about for some reason.
And I wish we could.
Like you said earlier, um, youknow, I guess you were kind of
you know upset and you know,kind of stomping your feet in
(34:00):
the beginning, you didn't wantto do what your daughters had
requested, but then you got to aplace where you know you started
not understand and get to aplace where you could talk.
And I feel like that's the onlyreason I can't understand my mom
is because we can't even getthere.
(34:21):
And that's what's veryfrustrating for me.
I feel like I can understand youbecause we're standing, we're
having a conversation, you'relistening to me, I'm listening
to you.
We don't have any water underthe bridge, so we have no reason
to argue.
That's it's harder.
SPEAKER_01 (34:39):
I think, and and Alexis, I have to be honest, um,
you know, with my own daughters,I pre-therapy for estrangement,
I could not have had this typeof conversation with them.
Um, I couldn't have had the theconversations I have had thus
far with them without doing myown personal work.
(35:03):
I am just such an advocate formoms, and this is what I do with
my support group for moms, isI'm trying to bring them back to
stop pointing the finger at youradult children, and let's take a
look in here inside our ownhearts and find out where were
we hurt, right?
(35:24):
There was a time in my life,didn't occur to me until until
after my estrangement.
I was like, Oh, I remember atime when I was actually
estranged from my mom.
Like I you don't really, yeah,it's very common for a very long
time, but there was a time whenI was estranged from her, and so
(35:46):
I went back to that experienceof how did I feel when I told my
mom, stop, I cannot take anymore, and then I was like, Oh,
yeah, maybe that is what my ownchild is thinking, right?
(36:08):
And so when we as parents, asmoms, can get back in a way,
pull back from the child, pullback from your adult children,
and come back to your own selfand your own hurts and your own
wounds and work through thosebecause that it's that trauma in
your life.
And I when I say trauma, I meantrauma with a little T, you
know, right zones and thingslike that.
(36:31):
But right, those traumas in lifewere the fuel on how I responded
and reacted to everything mydaughters did.
Yeah.
And when I got into that andlearned more about that and how
it affected my life and the waythat I respond, then I was able
to make changes and I was morewilling to make changes.
(36:53):
And so I think that that's thepiece that I don't see a lot of
parents wanting to do.
Um, I actually kind of hear theopposite from parents.
They're like, they see theirkids going through therapy, and
so they blame the therapist.
Oh, the therapist is the one whocaused this estrangement.
The therapist is the one who'stold my child to leave me, you
know, and I'm like, thetherapist turned you into an
atheist or something like that.
(37:15):
Those kinds of things.
And not it's you know, not everytherapist is is, you know,
fantastic.
I mean, it's a like any otherprofession.
However, the majority have, youknow, they're they're working to
to make things better and toempower whomever their client
is, be it the parent or thechild.
SPEAKER_03 (37:35):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (37:36):
So and I get that, Alexis.
It's it's when you've got thethe water under the bridge and
the history, it's really hardwhen it's hard to stay on track.
Yeah.
Right.
It's hard to stay on track whenyou feel like you're not being
heard.
SPEAKER_03 (37:58):
Thank you for listening to When the Bow
Breaks.
As always, please remember tolike, follow, and share.
Links in this week's show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (38:13):
What was it, Tina Gilbertson?
I heard her say the other day ina podcast that she does that um
acknowledgement is like catnipfor humans.
Right?
And it's like we don't have toagree and say that what our
adult children are saying isabsolute 100% correct.
(38:35):
Yeah, no.
We can acknowledge, I see thatyou're hurting.
Yes, I hear you, I hear thatyou're saying to me your hurt is
a result of my actions.
I'm not agreeing with that.
SPEAKER_00 (38:49):
Well, that's interesting.
You're not talking aboutvalidation, this is just simple,
clear-cut acknowledgement.
I hear you, I see you.
SPEAKER_01 (38:56):
Exactly.
Okay, exactly.
And that's that's can be astarting point before we can get
to validation.
Yeah, no, that's a big thing.
SPEAKER_03 (39:05):
It's such a small thing, but it's such a big
thing.
And that was that was my thing.
It was like, why don't they evenacknowledge this?
Like it felt like emotionalabandonment.
SPEAKER_00 (39:16):
Like, I don't know if that's like you know, an
exaggeration, but that's well,that's actually that's a good
question for you for you, Creed,because this is something that
again, like me middlemanningbetween Alexis and her mom.
I hear both ends of it.
What might hold you back fromacknowledging certain things?
And I'm not talking about likethings that your daughters might
(39:38):
bring to the table, but thingswhere it's like you're a mom,
you got eyes in the back of yourhead, you've been training for
this like their whole lives,right?
You know what's going on a lotof the time before they know
what's going on.
If you see that there'ssomething that you can address,
but like you hold back for.
(40:00):
For whatever reason, like whatare some of these kind of things
that like you're notacknowledging?
SPEAKER_01 (40:09):
Like, what am I not acknowledging, or what am I
holding?
Why am I holding back?
SPEAKER_03 (40:13):
I guess I guess I guess either or.
Yeah, I guess what he maybe whathe's trying to say is like, what
would be your reasons for notacknowledging something?
I guess we're just kind ofasking, like, if you could shed
some perspective.
Um sorry, I sort of acknowledgeyou.
That's okay.
SPEAKER_00 (40:28):
My question did get a little muddled.
Sorry, I'm under the weather.
That's okay.
SPEAKER_03 (40:31):
Like, I get what you're saying.
No, I get what he's asking.
I think, yeah.
SPEAKER_01 (40:36):
I think um if it if it was something something that
really hit home with and there'sbecause there's always a kernel
of truth in most everything thatis said, right?
SPEAKER_03 (40:53):
And it's a matter of us saying, and and it's usually
when that kernel of truth hitsus, yeah, that we stop things
because it's like okay, thatmakes me feel a lot better
because I was like, okay, now Iknow why she just totally shuts
down if I bring this or that up.
It's like that's why she's notacknowledged.
No, that makes a lot of sense.
(41:14):
I was like, okay, it's not thatshe is totally not thinking
about it.
Maybe she totally just can't gothere, right?
You know, so maybe she's notverbally acknowledging me, but
you know, if I can maybe think,maybe she's thinking about it.
SPEAKER_01 (41:28):
Exactly.
And I can guarantee you, justlike you know, it's I hear from
moms all the time, a strangemoms, you know, my kids just off
there, you know, having thisgreat life and everything is fun
and and happy, and you know, andI'm like, uh probably not.
That's probably not exactlywhat's happening.
It may appear to be that way,but then they may it may appear
(41:50):
to them that we're off havingthe time of our lives and you
know, not having to deal withany of these issues, right?
The case, whenever we'regenerally, generally with
people, when we're pushingagainst acknowledgement and
recognition of something, it'ssomewhere within us is this
(42:12):
piece of oh no, there's there'struth to that, and that hurts,
that's touched the spot, and II'm not going there.
And that's where therapy comesin.
That's where therapy says, let'stalk about it, because you could
talk about it with yourtherapist, it's a safe let's
just help you handle it, youknow.
(42:32):
Yeah, right, exactly.
Yeah, so I don't know if thatanswered your question or not.
SPEAKER_00 (42:38):
Ace no, it that again, like it answers the
question very well because Iknow I'm sort of primarily
asking from the perspective ofsomebody who's standing between
an estranged mother anddaughter, but I mean I'm I'm
also a person with anestrangement story, and you're
shedding a lot of light onto mymom's thought process.
(42:58):
I mean, we've had the goodfortune of being able to unpack
a lot of this stuff, but there'sstill certain no-fly zones,
right?
And I think certain questions,just like certain answers, carry
with them a bit of a sting.
SPEAKER_02 (43:13):
Yes.
SPEAKER_00 (43:15):
So us being not directly connected to each other
and being able to explore thisstuff, like I think it's really,
really good.
Like sorry, this is a little bithard for me too emotionally.
SPEAKER_03 (43:29):
Yeah, um, it is good, it's it's you're shedding
some light on a lot of things,and it's taken so long to get a
parent on the show.
It's like, you know, I didn'tknow if we just weren't reaching
out in the right places or ifthere's just a lot of
apprehension, but well, I thinkit's a lot of apprehension, and
(43:50):
I do think that there, I mean, Ihad I received this invitation,
you know, three years ago, thereis no way, there's no way I
would have ever even given itconsideration.
SPEAKER_01 (44:04):
I would have not done it because there was, I
mean, it's just so emotionallyreactive, right?
And so, I mean, there were daysI couldn't keep, I just couldn't
keep it together.
I mean, I was just sobbing fromyou know, or angry and threw
everything out the window.
I mean, I was just vacillatingbetween one emotion to the
other.
Yeah.
So it's and but the thing thatgot me to this place where I can
(44:29):
do this is all of the personalwork I did, all of the weekly,
you know, years of weeklytherapy, diving into my own
stuff.
Where, why do I do this?
Why do I think this way?
Why, what, where did I get thisperspective from?
And then I was able to get tothis place of oh, opening up to
(44:51):
being curious.
Yeah.
My children.
And this is what I try to helpmoms to understand.
This building a sense ofcuriosity is huge.
Doesn't mean you have to gothere and change things and
upend your life and all thisother stuff, but just what would
it be like if I wonder what shewould say if I did this, or I
(45:13):
wonder what this would bring.
Those that sense of curiosity iswhat then opened me up to be
able to touch the places where Ihurt my children, where I hurt
them and I brought them pain sothat I could then go in and
apologize.
SPEAKER_03 (45:32):
No, that's really big because, like you said, when
you in the absence of curiosity,you have more of like an
assumption frame of mind, andassumptions are gonna lead you
down the wrong path.
And I that's frustrating for mebecause I was raised in a way
where I was always having toguess what what everybody was
(45:54):
thinking.
I I always had to assume things,and it's a terrible, terrible
habit habit.
And so, you know, like what yousaid, instead of trying to
figure out what motives are ortrying to be, it's like, no, why
don't you just start askingyourself those questions?
Like, yeah, what could happen ifI what would happen if I do
this?
And sometimes it getsexhausting, sometimes it's
(46:18):
emotionally difficult to eventhink about the possibility of
this or that happening.
But that curiosity, like yousaid, asking those questions,
it's like, okay, well, thenthose questions start to evolve
and into deeper things.
And then you're starting to ask,well, why would I respond that
way?
Or why would she respond thatway?
(46:40):
Hmm, you know, like what'sthere's more to this.
Let's like let's figure it out.
That curiosity is reallyimportant.
And if going into therapy, whenyou have that curiosity, it can
even be fun.
It can, it can be.
SPEAKER_01 (46:55):
I mean, there's times I have laughed on my the
sofa at my therapist office, andI've said, Wow, how yeah, how
did I ever even think to come tothat conclusion?
Yes, you know, I mean it waslike the aha moments, the light
bulb moments, and things likethat.
Yeah, exactly.
SPEAKER_00 (47:15):
No, I I like that you brought up the curiosity
too, because yeah that you youarticulated that very well.
When I think back on my ownestrangement story, I knew I
wasn't ready when I couldn'teven think about what my mom was
up to, what she was all about,what she was thinking.
It did get to a point where Iwas honestly thinking about
(47:39):
okay, well, where's she at?
How's she feeling?
But to take the curiosity anglea step further, when we finally
did start talking and havingfunctional conversations, I
think a big component of thatfunctionality was the fact that
not only were we curious abouteach other, but that we were
(47:59):
expressing that curiosity abouteach other.
Yes, and that in many ways, Ithink, validated both of us
because I was so used toapproaching my mom thinking, no,
no, I know what you're allabout.
You can't explain to mesomething different.
I'm not hearing it, I know whata nasty mom you are.
SPEAKER_03 (48:19):
Yeah, we know the story, yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (48:21):
And I was at the same time, you know, somewhat
unfairly and ironicallyfrustrated with her because she
was looking at me and thinking,no, no, I know you better than
you know you.
I changed your diapers, youlittle shit, you know.
SPEAKER_03 (48:34):
Yeah, I remember more about your life than you
do.
SPEAKER_00 (48:36):
But when we got to actually talking like actual
people, we gained such anappreciation of each other, and
I came to realize something thatI don't know if your daughters
have expressed this to you, butthis is something that I had to
express to my mom, and it wasthe most difficult but
meaningful thing in the worldfor me to get to the place where
(48:58):
I realized that all these yearsI'd been taking my mom's
inventory and thinking like allthe ways in which I had
disappointed her.
It had never occurred to me thator sorry, that she had
disappointed me.
It had never occurred to me thatI had also disappointed her.
It wasn't just a case of herbeing less than ideal of a mom,
(49:22):
I was less than ideal of a kid,and I don't want to like get too
far down the rabbit hole ofplugging my other podcast, but I
mean I I I did an episodewriting about how my mom was so
much more than the labels that Ihad assigned to her, she was
actually a dynamic person, andwhereas I had assigned labels
(49:43):
like failure and abuser andinconsiderate to her, really the
labels that should have beenassigned were things like
trying, growing, hurting, and umI don't know where your
daughters are at exactly, but Ifeel fairly comfortable speaking
(50:06):
on their behalf.
That like somewhere in therethey see these things in you
too, and you don't have to havelike all your things figured
out.
You're putting in an effort andyou're being open about that
effort, and I think that is socommendable.
SPEAKER_03 (50:27):
Yeah, it's not easy.
SPEAKER_00 (50:31):
I don't think that um most of us doubt the love
that our family members have forus or that we have for them.
I think something that's toooften not expressed is that it's
not just a case of hey, I loveyou, but it should be a case of
I need you.
You're essential, you're notoptional.
SPEAKER_03 (50:49):
Right.
Yeah.
Not on some level to do less orsomething.
SPEAKER_00 (50:54):
I I think that a lot of the hurt comes out of the
fact that you are essential, butin some ways their ability to
navigate you kind of wasn'tthere, and maybe like that
dominated their perspective overtheir ability or their their
(51:15):
need to have you around.
Like that that pull in twoseparate directions, it it's
powerful and it's damaging.
I guess I'm not trying to speaktoo much in circles, but you
know, this is emotional stuff,and I feel like you know, I want
(51:35):
to just reach through the screenand say, I love you, mom, on
their behalf.
SPEAKER_01 (51:39):
Thank you.
Um I think that's that has thathit home.
Um because it's I I no one wakesup one morning and says, Oh, I
think I'm just going to estrangefrom everyone today.
That's not how it works.
(52:00):
And I know that me as a parent,I was a single parent for a
number of years, and um I was insurvival mode a lot of those
years.
And if I could go back andchange things, I've always said
(52:25):
my biggest regret was the waythat I parented my children.
And if I could go back and havea do-over, I'd do it in a nano
of a second.
I would redo everything, but Ican't.
And I'm a human being withfeelings just like my children
(52:46):
are, and I just hope that oneday they can be at the place
where they understand that theirmom tried, and I did the best
that I could with theinformation I had at the time,
and the only thing that I can donow having more information is
(53:09):
to do it differently movingforward.
And if there's one thing that Icould say to all adult children
who have estranged from theirparents, is to maybe one day be
able to come to the place whereyou can see your parent as a
(53:29):
human being who has faults, whotries the best way they know how
to be a parent.
No one sends us home with aninstruction manual on how to
parent children.
Yeah.
And we make a plethora ofmistakes.
(53:51):
Um, but we try and we do thebest that we can.
Um, that being said, I can alsosay that I hope that estranged
parents can understand that yourchild is a human being too, that
your child has suffered andcontinues to suffer through this
(54:12):
estrangement, whether you see itor not.
And that if you can get to aplace where you can recognize
that and hold that front andcenter with everything that you
do, healing can happen.
(54:37):
It's not gonna happen overnight,and it's not gonna happen in two
days and a week or what haveyou, but it will happen.
But we're all human beings, andhuman beings are foul.
We just none of us are perfect.
Thank you for sharing that, um,AC.
(54:57):
I I hope that one day my mychildren can come to that place
where they can understand me asa as a person who's tried and
that I can be a needed andwelcomed part in their life.
SPEAKER_00 (55:14):
I honestly like I I hope for their sake that they
can get to that place too,because I know how much personal
healing only comes as a resultof these types of realizations.
It's not about excusing the factthat you know mistakes were
(55:35):
made.
It just I understand, I think,like you say, there's a place
where these mistakes are comingfrom.
They come sometimes from hurt.
More often than not, they comejust from inexperience.
Like all of us are parents.
I know that it's not a questionof if I'm messing up my kids,
(55:55):
but how I'm messing up my kids.
SPEAKER_03 (55:58):
Yeah, and how to repair it later.
SPEAKER_00 (56:00):
So I think I gotta bring a lot of that to the table
too, thinking like if my momwent through what I'm going
through with my kids, oh man.
I I I'd hate to think that theday comes when they're my kids
come to me, they take myinventory and say, This is where
(56:20):
we part ways.
SPEAKER_02 (56:22):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (56:25):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_00 (56:26):
I mean, I feel kind of bad.
I feel like this thisconversation in certain ways has
been very disjointed, but I meanthat's kind of how the subject
matter is.
It's not easy grounds to cover.
There's so many, so manyconfusing elements that are
bouncing off against each other.
SPEAKER_03 (56:42):
Exactly.
Yeah, and like as an estrangedadult child, you know, with
kids, you know, I that runsthrough my mind all the time.
How do I make sure that thisdoesn't have to happen to our
family?
And like you said, making thosechanges, it's little steps, it's
it's very gradual.
It's it's it feels so slowsometimes, you know.
(57:07):
Some, but then every now andthen you'll hit like a huge
milestone.
And I always just say, when youdo hit those milestones, take
time to enjoy it and appreciatethe work that you've done
because it is hard to get there.
It is hard for some people, likeyou said, even just to go to
counseling and get help if theyneed it.
It is hard work.
(57:27):
Yes.
Um, it doesn't stop.
I feel like it just it's alwaysgoing on in your head.
You know, it's it's obsessive,but it's you know, again, it's
not something that we do becausewe just feel like, oh yeah, I'll
just get rid of everything andyou know, we're gonna go off and
be fine and be happy.
And no, there's there's there'sreal work involved.
(57:49):
And um, but the payoff, I mean,you'll get as much out of it as
you put into it.
I think, you know, whether ornot you're able to, you know,
establish reconnection with theperson that you're estranged
from, you're gonna learn andgrow a lot and bring more
positive things into the newrelationships that you make.
SPEAKER_02 (58:07):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (58:08):
Um, so you know, and I wanted everyone to kind of,
you know, unthink about thattoo.
You know, not all of us aregonna reach a point of
reconciliation.
SPEAKER_02 (58:16):
Right.
SPEAKER_03 (58:17):
And that's not something some of us like to
think about.
Um, but I think that also justlearning to be content with
where we're at and learning tounderstand, okay, this is where
I'm at.
It's okay, let's just keepmoving forward, let's just keep
doing the work, just keepgrowing and uh, you know, see
where it takes us.
SPEAKER_01 (58:38):
Baby steps.
I'm always baby steps.
Yep.
Just putting one foot in frontof the other, doing the next
best thing, right?
The next right thing right here,right now, instead of worrying
about, you know, six months downthe road, a year down the road,
it's like right here, right now,what can I do today for myself?
(58:58):
To show a littleself-compassion, right?
Because I beat myself up a lot.
Um based on, you know, as Isaid, how I raise my children.
So exercising a little bit of umself-compassion.
And then when I can have someself-compassion for myself, then
that becomes easier to give thatcompassion to my daughters.
SPEAKER_03 (59:18):
Yeah, it really does come.
It sounds so cheesy, but itreally does come from within.
SPEAKER_02 (59:23):
It does.
SPEAKER_03 (59:23):
You you really have to do the inner work if you want
to see external changes.
Exactly.
unknown (59:28):
Yeah.
SPEAKER_03 (59:29):
That's just what I that's what I've learned.
That is that's not justsomething I just say like I've
learned I've learned that thehard way over and over.
You have to do the work if youwant things to change.
Right.
SPEAKER_01 (59:39):
If we, you know, that whole definition of
insanity, if we continue to dothe same thing, yeah, I mean,
that's not going to bring anychanges, anything different.
Right.
You know, we have to change inorder to have something
different.
SPEAKER_03 (59:53):
So I had a question.
Do you think it do you thinkthat your your kids will listen
to this podcast?
SPEAKER_01 (01:00:00):
I I will share it with them.
I hope that they do.
Um I I think that I think theywill.
Um what would you like to say tothem if they were listening?
I love them and I am so sorryfor ever having imposed any
(01:00:21):
work.
And I hope that we can moveforward in a healthy way that
will sustain us for the rest ofour lives in a way that works,
that is meaningful and healthyfor all of us.
SPEAKER_03 (01:00:38):
And they had the support of the show.
Yeah, everyone who comes on theshow is like family to us.
Um I can't express how much thishas positively changed our life,
this little show that we startedabout estrangement.
We had no idea what this wouldbecome.
And uh I want to say thank youas we wrap this up.
(01:01:01):
Um, AC, do you want to have doyou have anything else you want
to bring to the table before wewrap it up?
Any other questions you have forCreed or me?
SPEAKER_00 (01:01:10):
No, there's just one quick thing I want to mention,
maybe possibly in passing.
Anybody who's listening to this,feel free to reach out to the
show if you've got questions,either as a strange child, a
strange parent, a strangesibling.
Uh if we can't personallyaddress this stuff, we can put
you in touch with somebody,hopefully, who can.
(01:01:32):
All of us, I think, are willingto make ourselves available as
surrogates.
To anybody who's got questions.
And um yeah, that's basically mylittle piece.
And I also want to give Creed anopportunity to share any
resources or or whatnot that shethinks are useful.
And of course, we will includeany links she mentions in this
(01:01:54):
week's show notes.
SPEAKER_01 (01:01:56):
Sure.
Um, I one thing that helped me alot was working, um, listening
to Dr.
Coleman, Joshua Coleman, um is auh therapist, uh clinical
psychologist that works withEstrange Parents.
He has a free uh QA session hedoes on every Monday, and that
was really helpful for me in thebeginning.
Um, of course, lots of um onlinesupport groups as well is was
(01:02:20):
helpful.
Um also I had a book, two booksthat I um would like to
recommend as well.
Um is one was When Parents Hurtby Dr.
Joshua Coleman, and the other isFault Lines um by Carl Um
Pilmar, I believe is how you sayhis last name.
And um Tina Gilberson also has apodcast that um it's called The
(01:02:42):
Reconnection Club, and she sheoffers a lot of um wonderful,
wonderful advice um for forparents and adult children.
Yeah, she's great.
SPEAKER_03 (01:02:54):
Yeah, I know her.
Yeah, she actually, I'm gonnasay this because this will force
me to put this episode outbecause it's gonna be really
good.
Her episode with our show is inthe banks right now.
Um, we are working on pullingall that.
Uh, we're having a little bit ofissues with some of our computer
and having to move and blah,blah, blah.
We don't need to get into it.
But um, she's very good.
(01:03:15):
Uh, she has a lot of goodinformation for parents
specifically.
Uh, so yeah, check her out.
Sorry, I just didn't want tointerrupt, but yeah, I just
wanted to clarify.
Yeah, she's great.
She's great.
SPEAKER_01 (01:03:26):
Yeah, yeah.
But I think those are those werethe things that helped me.
Um, I just I, you know, I gotcurious, I reached out for
support, I looked for support ina way that, you know, I can't be
the only person on this planetexperiencing this, right?
And so I'm so when when I found,thank you, AC, for reaching out.
When I found your podcast, I waslike, oh my gosh, this is
(01:03:48):
wonderful that you guys havethis and that you're open to
having parents come on as well,that it's not just for estranged
adult children, but alsoparents.
And I think that I'm hoping thatwith me being here today will
help open the doors for some umother parents to come on and
share their story.
(01:04:08):
It's through sharing our storiesthat we make connections.
SPEAKER_03 (01:04:11):
Yes, yeah.
Yeah.
So if you're an estranged parentand you're listening, please,
please, please share, share,share.
Uh, we need to get the word outto more parents.
Yes, when the bow breaks podcastis not just for adult children,
it's for anybody experiencingany level of estrangement.
SPEAKER_00 (01:04:29):
Siblings, marriage, you name it.
SPEAKER_03 (01:04:32):
Anything.
Yeah, this is meant to be aresource for anybody experience
experiencing estrangement.
So, yeah, share it with anybodyand everybody.
Estrangement's more common thanyou think.
Like you said, you experiencedestrangement, didn't really
realize it, you know, untilyou're older.
So, yeah, share, share, share.
Um, if you want moreinformation, you can go to our
(01:04:52):
website, wtbbpod.com, and uhwhich is a fish a Kingfisher
Media Production.
So uh we have a Facebook page ifyou want more information about
Kingfisher Media Productions.
Uh so you can visit us there.
Um trying to think, is thereanything else?
Uh this was a really greatepisode, Creed.
Thank you so much for beinghere.
(01:05:14):
Um, again, I can't say itenough, said it too much
already, and not too much, butyou know what I mean.
Uh we really appreciate youbeing on the show.
And I hope that this episodewill um help a lot of parents um
and a lot of adult children too.
So uh thank you for listening toWhen the Bow Breaks podcast.
(01:05:34):
Uh, we will see you next time.
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