Choosing Your Desert Oasis: Albuquerque, New Mexico vs. Tucson, Arizona for LGBTQ+ Retirees with Pamm Meyers and Jeff Schuchart

Episode Transcript
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(00:02):
Welcome to the Where Do GaysRetire? Podcast where we help you
in the LGBTQ community find asafe and affordable retirement place.
Join Mark Goldstein as heinterviews others who live in gay
friendly places around theglobe. Learn about the climate, cost
of living, health care, crimeand safety, and more. Now here's

(00:23):
your host, Mark Goldstein. Andtoday we're going to have a comparison
choosing your Desert oasis,Albuquerque, New Mexico versus Tucson,
Arizona. We got a great showin store for you today, folks. We
have our special guests, PamMyers and Jeff Schucart, and we'll

(00:48):
tell you about each of them.So we'll start off with Pam. Pam
is a storyteller, dynamicleader and advocate dedicated to
fostering prosperity withinthe LGBTQIA community through business,
innovation and socialadvocacy. With a multifaceted background,
Pam has become a trailblazerin various fields, leaving an indelible

(01:13):
mark on New Mexico's LGBTQIAand business communities. She is
the CEO of Go Social. PamMeyer, Social Media. Pam is the forefront
of digital marketing andpodcasting solutions for business
owners and organizations. Hervisionary approach has empowered
countless ventures to harnessthe potential of social media, unlocking

(01:38):
new avenues for growth andengagement, and is a driving force
behind her client success,leveraging the power of connectivity
to elevate their brand throughdigital marketing and podcasting.
Pam is also the managingpartner of Two Flower Productions,
a podcasting company thatproduces Lip Service. It's a podcast

(01:58):
of our coming out stories,which I was on, so you can go listen
to that one. And Also LipService Media 3Q New Mexico Business
Podcast. Previously theExecutive director of the New Mexico
Out Business Alliance.Currently board advisor for the Way

(02:19):
Out Film Fest. Board advisorof the Albuquerque Community Foundation,
Pride Circle. Supporting theLGBTQIA community through philanthropy.
That's a lot. Sounds fancy.
That's a big one. It doessound fancy, but you are fancy.
Oh, thank you, Mark. It's apleasure and honor to be here.

(02:42):
Thank you. And we have JeffSchuchart. We'll tell you a little
bit about Jeff. From personalinterest to profession. He relocated
to Tucson, Arizona with hishusband during the summer of 2014.
I know what you're thinking.You moved during the summer. Oh my
God, it's so hot in thesummer. He did and he never looked

(03:02):
back. They both grew up inSoutheast Pennsylvania and had a
timeline in mind to pick upand move, even though they knew no
one in Tucson. Jeff always hasa personal interest in real estate,
and after retiring in 2016, heobtained his Realtor license and
joined Long Realty, thelargest brokerage in Southern Arizona
and part of the BerkshireHathaway network. I must add the

(03:26):
best realtor in Tucson. Thankyou. His background? He spent 30
years with VF Corporation,which was entirely in human resources.
He has an undergrad degree infine arts and a master's in business
administration from state andprivate universities in Pennsylvania.
His husband, Bob and Jefffound Tucson to be an amazing city

(03:52):
with wonderful people,diverse, a university town, Love
university town. A city ofgastronomy and culture, hiking, cycling,
golfing, mountains everywhere,and a large gay community. He has
volunteered most of his adultlife and found plenty of organizations
to support in the localcommunity. He never tires about talking

(04:13):
about Tucson and all it has tooffer. Feel free to visit his website@jeffs
longrealty.com that's J E F FS. L O N G R E A L T Y.com or email
him directly atjeffsongrealty.com and he can answer

(04:33):
any questions about theirexperience. Welcome to the podcast,
Jeff.
Thank you, Mark, as always.Pleasure to be here.
Thank you. Thank you. So we'llstart off. Welcome to the podcast.
And can you explain why youchose both you chose Tucson, Jeff
and Albuquerque or Placidus? Pam?

(04:57):
Sure. Jeff, do you want to go first?
Sorry, I'll follow.
Yeah. We chose the Albuquerquearea. It was a dream of mine to move
to Santa Fe for 10, 12 yearsand I brought my wife out to Santa
Fe and she did not think wewere still working and she did not

(05:20):
think that she could find anengineering job in Santa Fe, that
it was too small. And so thenI said, well, what about Albuquerque?
And so we, I had never been toAlbuquerque before but thought, okay,
it's in the southwest and it'shigh desert. So we came to check
it out and, and liked thearea. So we moved here in 2013 and

(05:44):
never looked back.
Great. How about you, Jeff?What brought you to Tucson out of
everything?
Similar story, just differentcity, that's all. Well, we vacationed
here a few times throughoutArizona, Phoenix, north, and then
Tucson. And we just honestly,we took a chance and what we really

(06:08):
loved about Tucson is the sizeof the city, which is about a million
residents with the suburbs andsome separately incorporated towns.
And. But we loved. You've beenin on the east, mark. So it's so
different living in the westin terms of how much you can see

(06:29):
and it's open space and justand true for you too there, Pam.
Right. And so we just, we justloved the area and we said we'll
come out for a year and ahalf. And if we don't like it, we'll
look somewhere else. And 10years later, we're still here.
You're still here.
Yeah, yeah, yeah. There'ssomething to be said for the wide

(06:51):
open spaces where you can justlook and see for miles. It just opens
up, I don't know, your soulfor, I don't know, good energy.
Yeah, it's. We don't have thatwide open in.
In Phoenix.
Phoenix. As much as we do in.As much as you guys do in Tucson

(07:13):
and Albuquerque. So. But wehave city. And then if you drive
out of the cities, Phoenix isso big anyway.
Right.
So then you get that openfeeling. So. Definitely. So tell
us, let's get on to climateand geography. How would you describe
the climate and geography ofTucson and Albuquerque and what makes

(07:34):
each city unique in terms ofweather and natural surroundings?
Things.
We'll start off with that. Pam?
I think I don't remember whatthe elevation of Tucson is. Jeff,
what's your elevation there?
Roughly 2800.
Okay. Okay. So I think all inall, there's a lot of similarities

(07:57):
between this area betweenAlbuquerque area of New Mexico and
Tucson with the exception ofelevation. And that's what makes
our climate vastly differentthen. Right. Because we're at 5,000ft,
we're technically in Placidus,which is a small, little rural suburb.
So we're at 57ft. And so youfeel the weather very, very differently.

(08:23):
And that's, I think, what welove about it because you can get
days in the wintertime whereyou can go out and if the sun is
shining, you can be out in a Tshirt because of the. You're so much
closer to the sun. And it doesnosebleeds. You know what? When you

(08:44):
first move here, if you movefrom, like we moved here from the
Dallas area. Yeah. It tookweeks to get time.
Right.
It does, right. It takes weeksfor your body to adjust to the dryness.
You get dizzy or.
I don't. I mean, I've had somepeople be.
Bothered because of theelevation by. You have to drink water
and hydrate.

(09:05):
You do. You have to stayhydrated. Yep. It's an important
thing because again, ifyou're. And just like Tucson, if
you're. It's so dry. Right. Ifyou're perspiring, you don't always
know it because you're.
What's that?
Dry. Right, Exactly.
Except for when we're out in110 to 120 degrees.
Well, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.Or you get into a hot car and it

(09:27):
takes. Yeah. Yeah, but we'revery lucky with that here because
the weather is really ideal. Imean our summers are mild and our
winters are pretty mild and wecool off at, we cool off at night.
So it, it's really very lovely.
I remember being in Tucson, inAlbuquerque. No, Santa Fe in October

(09:54):
and I was freezing.
Yeah. Oh yeah, right. Andthat's the entire elevation right
there at 7,500ft. Yeah. Sothey're generally anywhere from 8
to 15 degrees cooler than weare. Wow. And yet they're only 40
minutes away.
Yeah, it's a big difference.How about you in Tucson, Mr. Jeff?

(10:19):
Well, we live. So Bob and Ilive in Oro Valley, which is when
I referred to 2800ft. That'swhere we are. Tucson is just a little
bit less, probably a couplehundred feet, maybe 25, 20, 600.
So obviously it still gets hothere in the summer, very warm. And

(10:40):
Mark, you and I know we've hadthe conversation about Phoenix. So
Tucson's in the summer, 5, 7degrees cooler than the Phoenix Valley.
And so we, we all probablyhave 300 plus days of sunshine every
year, which is why we love ithere. And just like Pam mention for

(11:03):
most of the year, but we cooloff drastically when that sun goes
down. There's often a 30degree, 25 to 30 degree temperature
swing between day and nightand it's just 90 degrees may sound
hot to some of our listeners,but when it's 60 at night and the
sun goes down, it cools offreally quickly and it's just beautiful.

(11:26):
So we obviously we havedifferent climate than some other
areas, but you know, it's,it's just lovely most of the year
and it's hot part of the year.
So it's a dry heat.
Well, listen, listen to who'stalking about.
Right, right.

(11:46):
I love when somebody tells me that.
It is dry heat. Right. We get.
Oh, it is.
We get humidity in the summerand it might be 30 or maybe just.
But you know, you won't seethe 70%, 80 and 90 that we were accustomed
to where we lived before. Soyeah, it is dry and hydration is

(12:07):
really, really important,especially if you're outside and
you're hiking or doing sometype of activity and you just don't
realize how much, how muchwater you need to consume.
Well, like all desert rats here.
Right, right. We do laugh whenpeople say it's dry heat. No, it's
dry heat. But it's amazingwhat the humidity, how it impacts.

(12:31):
Oh yeah, 6% humidity. It doesimpact. Let's take for example today
we're recording this onOctober 29th yesterday in Phoenix,
if I'm not mistaken, was inthe 90s in the. For the high today.
I don't think we're gonna.Well, we reached 73. I think just

(12:53):
before when I was out and itwas chilly, I had my sweatshirt on
this morning taking the dogsout at 5 in the. 5:30 in the morning.
And it during, even afterthat, at around 10, I had my sweatshirt
on and I just, Yeah, I justtook it off now.
Aren't you retired, Mark?

(13:14):
I am, yeah.
Why do you get up at 5:30? Oh,because of the heat. Yes. Yeah.
Well, the heat now in themorning is not bad. It's still, it's
in the 60s now and 70s so Ireally could sleep in. But I'm so
used to getting up so earlyfrom work.

(13:35):
Yeah.
That I'm still getting up. So.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
And the dogs are used to ittoo. And they're like, where are
you? Take me out, Mark.
I'll add one thing. And we, werely on monsoons in the summer for
our moisture. And when we talkabout humidity and the dew points,
we have to have those numbersgo up significantly in the summer

(13:58):
because that's what generatesthe energy for the monsoons. And
without those dew points, wewouldn't have the opportunity for
monsoons. So we, we alwayshope we get those rains in the summer
because it's dry so much ofthe rest of the year.
We didn't get too many thisyear here in Phoenix. We more like
nonsoons instead of monsoons.So I don't know how it is. I know

(14:25):
you, you have a drought too,Pam, right?
Yeah. Well, it's been, I meanwe're like 10 plus years in the making
here for. But it was, it, itwas, it seemed like we had a fair
amount. I don't remember thenumbers that we've had of rain, of
monsoons this summer, but itseemed like it was a fair amount.

(14:45):
So hopefully that will put usin a better position. And we already
have snow on in Santa Fe Skimountain. That's great.
Rain here is an event. Likepeople get excited. It's like, oh
my God, it's raining. And fromNew York originally and then Florida
where it rains every day andpeople are like celebrating rain.

(15:08):
And I'm like, oh, okay. Andit's true, it's true because it doesn't,
it doesn't rain here. Sogetting into the next question, how
has climate change impactedeach city? Are you seeing any more
extreme weather patterns,extreme heat, droughts or storms

(15:28):
occurring now. And have yourrespective cities done anything to
mitigate climate change?
You want me to start with thatone or Jeff, do you want to go first?
Go ahead Pam.
I think it seems like we'venot seen a lot of extremes as much

(15:49):
as it's been, I would sayerratic. Like we had a much warmer
October than normal and nowit's just starting to get but we've
not seen any great extremeshere. The city is doing a lot like
they were just awarded a grantto be able to put in all put things

(16:13):
into place to like watering,watering time limits and a shop local
program and increasing the EVcharging stations to encourage people
from, to buy more electricvehicles and that kind of thing.
So I wouldn't say we've seenany, I don't think we've seen any

(16:36):
big extremes. I mean oursummer was pretty mild but. But the
city is working to get prepared.
That's great. Jeff.
Well, Tucson is somewhatimmune to extreme weather events

(16:58):
unlike the rest of thecountry. I think we could all agree
that these, whether it'stornadoes or hurricanes, I mean they're
just becoming more violent andmore extreme. We're pretty immune
to those patterns because weare ringed by mountains and so there's

(17:19):
very little or history ofextreme weather here. I mean we get
some severe, we can get severemonsoons during the summer that result
in a lot of damage but thoseare microbursts. Traditionally a
regular monsoon isn't going tohave that kind of damage. But I think
to answer your questionspecifically, our extreme is just

(17:43):
I think in the length of timethat we're having these hot days
and I mean we're not quite aswarm as Phoenix. But it just seemed
that especially these last twosummers that the number of hot days
was longer than other years.And even now, as Pam said, we've

(18:06):
had days in the 90s in thelast couple of weeks and we keep
saying and we were teased witha couple of cooler days in the midst
of all that but then it justcame back. So I would say it's lasted
longer than in previous years.So I think here and without being
critical of other areas butI'll just make a comparison. Like

(18:30):
if you go to California you'regoing to see a lot of natural grass
there. If you go to Phoenixyou're going to see more than we
have here in Tucson. We reallydon't have a lot of natural grass
because we don't want to waterit and we shouldn't. I mean we have
golf courses but probably afraction of the number of courses
in Phoenix and other areas. Sothe focus on xeriscaping and types

(18:55):
of plants and just using theminimal amount of water to. To provide
nutrition and. But even that,I would say we're losing cactus and
agaves in the summer that weprobably were not accustomed to losing
in other years because they'renot getting watered unless we get

(19:16):
rains. And if we don't getrains, they too can die.
Yeah. So we're experiencingthat too, probably even more than
anyone else here in Phoenix,because we've had how many days?
I can't even keep trackanymore. 110 days over. Or is it
110 degrees? We had anextraordinary amount of days over,

(19:40):
like, 100 and 110 degrees. Andit seemed like. And it was. The summer
lasted six months out of theyear. So I personally, I kind of
felt captive of my own homebecause what do you do? You don't
go out. You go out to thestore, the grocery store. But how

(20:01):
would be. But you can't doanything else in the outdoors, so
that's a problem. And so.Okay, so do you know if the government
in Tucson is doing anythingproactive regarding climate change?
I really don't know thatanswer, Mark, but if you remember

(20:24):
the Biosphere, where that was,I guess, built in the 80s, I think
it's located here in Tucson,and that's where there was a small
group of people who were kindof sequestered inside these buildings
to see if they could plant andgrow and with temperature to survive

(20:46):
without any outside factorsand assistance. So it didn't last.
But I'm bringing it up becausetoday the University of Arizona owns
Biosphere, and it's managed bythem. And so there's. There are interns
that come in and they areworking on specifically climate change

(21:08):
issues. So I don't. And Idon't know that that's specific for
Tucson versus it might benationwide, but, yeah, that's one
example I can think of.
Okay.
Yeah, it's a great. It's afascinating place to visit.
Yeah, I definitely have totake another visit. Absolutely. So,
yeah, climate change hasbecome very big topic all over the

(21:30):
world and as well on thispodcast. So I always try to find
out about climate change. Howabout the water supply? Are we like,
what's going on with the watersupply and both of those cities?
Pam, you want to tell us alittle bit about Albuquerque and
New Mexico's water supply?
I mean, the water is always aconstant concern. Right. When you're

(21:53):
living in a climate like wehave, we rely on monsoon but mostly
even snowfall on the mountainsto provide water. We have a lot of
acacias here for the farm. Soyou like the, it's ditches so they,
they have the whole, thiswhole irrig system that comes off

(22:15):
of the Rio Grande and thenpeople have acacias that run all
through neighborhoods andfarmland to water. And I know that
they are concerned about thelongevity of that if we don't get
snowfall is not enough. And itfelt like last year we had a ton

(22:37):
of snowfall but on themountains but apparently it wasn't
what we really needed to have.So there is some concern but the
city is doing. City and thestate are taking measures to try
and control. To educate peopleon use of water. If you are. Most

(22:59):
people here have stone or justnatural grass, natural environments.
So where it's not like whenyou go into oh gosh, like some, like
Las Vegas or something whereyou see. Or even Scottsdale where
people have green lawns andthey're watering all the time. Right.
Yeah, you don't, we don't havea lot of that here. So that's certainly

(23:24):
helpful. But they are workingon providing education for resources
to mitigate a lot of that andputting in smart water monitors and
that kind of thing. So I meanany place people get.
Their water from The Colorado River.
Yes, that's what I thought.Yeah. I mean any place in the southwest

(23:44):
where always water is top ofmind, right?
Yep, it is.
And you Jeff, in Tucson withthe water situation. Same thing,
right.
It's always a question and Iget it from real estate clients.
Yeah. Is there gonna be enoughwater, especially.
Those that don't live here andwe're going to have enough water.

(24:05):
And what do you tell them?
Well, I don't know thatanswer. I tell them that in fact
I just was at an appointmentlast night and I mean I don't know
this answer but they're stillbuilding around here too. And I believe
I'm correct in saying that thebuilder has to show that they have

(24:28):
enough water for 100 yearsupply. Now how they're, I don't
know how they're defining thator where they're coming up with that,
but they can't build. It's notgoing to get approved unless they,
they can prove that or showthat. So but again to Pam's point,
I mean we do, I mean we havepassive water harvesting on our property.
So that. Passive meaning thatwhen we do get rain it's going to

(24:52):
collect in these valleys thatwe've created with rock to help water
downstream When I saydownstream, that sounds like a long
distance on a house. It's not,but you know what I mean. So. And
there's lots of educationalopportunities here to learn about
how to do those things throughpublic gardens and the university.

(25:14):
And so there, there'sopportunities. People have collections
set up under their. If theyhave rain gutters and things like
that they're using and they'rereusing that water to keep their
plants and trees replenish.So. But it's always a question.
Yeah, okay, awesome.
I was just listening, I justwas listening to a podcast on NPR

(25:38):
just yesterday and they weretalking about how we are in line
to lose 30% of the trees thatwe have in the United States because
of climate change. Wow, that'sa pretty shocking number, I thought.
Yeah, yeah, we need more trees.
Right, sure. So sorry tointerrupt you, Mark.
No, no, no, no, not at all. Iwas going to go on to the next subject,

(26:01):
healthcare. Let's talk alittle bit about healthcare. How's
the healthcare system in yourcity? How long does it typically
take to see a PCP primary carephysician? There are any concerns
about healthcare access orlong wait times? And how about where
are the nearest hospitals toyou? And how many hospitals do you
have? So we'll start off,we'll start off with Pam. Tell us

(26:25):
a little bit about thehealthcare system.
And we've got four majorhealthcare systems here. We have
Presbyterian, Loveless, UNMHealth, and then San Juan Regional.
And Presbyterian is, andLoveless are probably the two largest
and there's also a fifth onethat is evading me at the moment,

(26:48):
Christus St. Vincent. And sothere's actually five.
And unm.
Right, and unm. Yep. And Imean, it's, it feels like they're
almost like gas stations.There are so many of them all around
now, the major hospitals, weare, we are 20 minutes from one major

(27:13):
hospital, 30 minutes fromanother. If you're right in Albuquerque,
you're going to be 10 minutesright from three different hospitals
within just a short distance.So I think in terms of having the
hospital support here, it'sreally good. You are just like anywhere.

(27:38):
I was at an event this summerand healthcare had a table and somebody
walked up and said, I've justmoved here, I need to find a new
doctor. And they said, well,you're going to have a two week wait
list. We're on a two, twoyear. Sorry, two year waitlist.
Wow.
And I was like, you're kiddingme. Two years? That seems a little

(28:00):
crazy. But on the other hand,my wife needed to get in to have
her hip looked at. And shecalled today and she has an appointment
on Monday. So it really, Ithink, just depends on the facility
that you're trying to get into.
Do you have a primary care physician?

(28:20):
Yep. Yep.
And how long does it take youto get in? A couple.
I mean, a week. A week?Usually. Yeah. I mean, if I.
Maybe it's for new participants.
That's my thought. Yes. Ifyou're looking for somebody new,
it might be more challenging.It also might be unm. That. That

(28:43):
for that particular one.
That's a.
Two years, right? That's along time, right? Yeah. Yeah. But
it's also the. We've lost alot of reading a report to get ready
for this podcast. I wassurprised to read that we've lost
30% of our doctors in thestate as a whole since the pandemic.

(29:09):
And so now they're working.They didn't have a reason. I do know
that we don't. The state thatyou. The doctors in New Mexico don't
make nearly as much as they doin other cities or other states.
Could be a big reason.
Yeah. How about. Jeff, howabout Tucson hospitals nearby? How

(29:31):
long does it take to get intoa primary care physician or a specialist?
I was counting while Pam wasspeaking because I usually don't
name the hospitals when I'm onthese podcasts, but I'm pretty certain
we have six. And there's onein Oro Valley, which is probably

(29:52):
seven minutes from where welive. There's one that is called
Northwest Medical Center.Those two have some type of relationship
for providers as well, wherethey have privileges at both hospitals.
Banner is University ofArizona. It's a teaching hospital,
so it's very large withmultiple locations. There's. We have

(30:15):
Tucson Medical center andthere. And then we have Saint Mary's
and we also have a VA hospitalhere in Tucson. So. And they're all,
they're all over thegeography. So I find that if you're
going to a specialist, whichI'll just speak from, our opinion
is that we have very goodspecialists in Tucson, and Tucson

(30:38):
isn't that big. I'm willing todrive to a different part of town
to see a specialist that Iwant to see. But they, a lot of the
specialists, if they're. Iftheir practice is large enough, they'll
have multiple office locationsthroughout. Throughout the city.
The one thing that I have beendisappointed in since we moved here

(31:02):
is the number of PCPs wholeave and the turnover is high. I
think part of the reason isthe wages as Pam said, the other
piece is the demand on them. Isound like I'm pretty knowledgeable

(31:23):
about it. I believe I reallyam correct. It's the demand that's
placed on them to see patientsand the volume of patients. And I
believe it's the result ofpractices being purchased by conglomerates
who are not in medicine, butthey're in there for the profit.

(31:47):
And so I have had personalexperiences both in Pennsylvania
before moving here and here,where my PCPs have left to go to
a VA, because the VA offersthem a set schedule Monday through
Friday. They don't have towork past 5:00. And am I accurate

(32:07):
on every single thing? I don'tknow that I am, but I do believe
that probably. I do believethat that's why a lot of them were
leaving RPCP in Pennsylvania.He was fairly young, he had four
young children and they werepressuring him to see more and more
people. And one of his goalswas to offer the amount of time necessary

(32:28):
to get to know the patient andspend as much quality time with him
as he wanted to. And so heleft. And I think that's the case
here as well. So my mostrecent PCP left in, I think, July,
so I have an appointment inNovember to see a different pcp.

(32:49):
So it probably was about fourmonths out for that. And specialists,
again, if you have arelationship with one and you're
already a patient, I don'tfind that it takes an excessive amount
of time to get scheduled. Butif you are not a patient, could take
six months or longer to get into see that person. But I mean, overall

(33:14):
the level of healthcare hereis more than satisfactory. I mean,
we like most of all of ourdocs, but that whole PCP thing is
just. I don't know if it'sgoing to change, I really don't.
I mean, they should, this ismy wish. They should make it illegal
for companies that havenothing to do with the medical field

(33:36):
that just buy up these medicalpractices. They should make it illegal
to do that. You should havesome sort of medical background,
not just, not just a financial.
Interest, not just be in itfor the money.
Yeah, right. And then, andthen screw it up management wise
and these, these places start collapsing.

(33:57):
Right.
And another outcome of that,not always, but is that sometimes,
depending on who owns it, thepractice, you don't get to speak
to someone locally, they'resomewhere else. And you know what
I mean by somewhere else.
Oh, yeah.
So that part can befrustrating, but I do. We're quite

(34:24):
happy with the access Here anda lot of our docs.
Okay, that seems like theoverall consensus as far as Phoenix
and Albuquerque. Both aresatisfied with the healthcare that
each city provides. Okay, samething. Just throwing in a little

(34:45):
Phoenix. Same thing. I thinkPhoenix has a good healthcare system
as well. Just in case anybodyis interested, wondering. Yeah, so,
okay, cost of living, veryimportant. So what's the cost of
living like in Tucson andAlbuquerque? And specifically, can
you compare the median priceof a two to three bedroom single

(35:08):
family home and a two to threebedroom rental to the natural national
average? We'll start thatquestion off with Jeff, since he
has experience in his real team.
There you go, Jeff. No pressure.
Yeah, I should have looked atthe list of questions, Mark.

(35:29):
So two to three bedroom singlefamily home.
Really?
Not sure I know all therentals, but I know they're going
up. I know they're stillbuilding a lot and I know that there
have been companies who havepurchased a lot of the apartment
complexes here and kind ofgutting the units, charging more

(35:55):
money and in a lot of cases somuch that the residents that are
in there had to move becausethey couldn't afford it any longer.
So they're, they're creatingthese upscale apartment complexes
and then they own so many ofthem that their market share is huge.
And. But they're stillbuilding because we need, we need

(36:18):
those units. But I think it'sprobably, generally, if you're in
an apartment complex with someamenities, it's probably pretty difficult
to find something under $1,000a month. Oh, yeah, I would think
for a one bedroom. That's mybest guess. Housing prices, just
like almost everywhere havegone up since, during and since COVID

(36:42):
so. And they haven't reallybacked off here. And I won't talk
that much about real estate toanswer the question, but I mean,
probably our average price isprobably around 340,000 for that
two bedroom, two bath,somewhere in that. In that range.

(37:03):
And again, it just depends onwhat part of town that you live.
But that's probably theaverage or maybe median price for
that.
Sounds pretty reasonable.
Well, I think it. Yeah, it is.I mean, our cost of living here is
pretty reasonable for, forpeople to live here. I mean, generally

(37:24):
speaking.
What about property taxes?Jeff. Sorry.
Good one, good one.
Did you pay her to ask that? Man?
I just, I put it a little biton the side. Wow.
We. We've talked about thisoffline and. Because, Mark, you can
add to the conversation about,about Phoenix, but our property taxes,

(37:46):
I mean, if you ask someone whomoved here from a different Space
Californian is going to tellyou that it's extremely reasonable.
So I'll just, I'll answer itspecifically and say there's always
an assessed value of a home.And so the calculation is, and I'll

(38:10):
give you an example. If ahouse has an assessed value of $350,000,
the property taxes will beroughly 10 to 15% of that. So that
means 3,500 to potentially$4,500 of property taxes on a $350,000
property. So that's going tobe significantly higher than Phoenix.

(38:34):
But that's our average here inTucson. Now again, it's all relative.
It depends on where you'vecome from and what you're used to.
But that's the calculationkind of black and white.
I've been looking at propertytaxes because whenever I examine
a place, this is a good placefor retirement, I always want to

(38:54):
know what the property tax isbecause that's a big thing.
Oh yeah, it could be biggerthan your mortgage payment.
Let's say I have a 1700 squarefoot condo. I pay approximately,
I think it's 2,800 per year,which is very reasonable. And everywhere

(39:15):
else I look I'm like, oh,poverty tax is 8,000. On a similar
type square footage,California is up in the eight thousands
and there's other places onthe east coast, Philadelphia, oh,
8,600. You know, how about inNew Mexico in the Albuquerque area?

(39:37):
We're lower than both of you,I think. Well, the median first of
all, to go back from thebeginning, the median two bedroom
home here is about 270. Imean. 370. Sorry, 370 on average.
Right. And of course to Jeff'spoint, it depends on the neighborhood

(39:57):
that you're in. Depends onthe, the area and that kind of thing.
And the average two bedroomapartment is 1350amonth.
Pretty reasonable.
We, our house is in terms ofproperty taxes. Our house is 2,000
square feet. We are on acouple of acres and we pay $2,300

(40:21):
a year for property taxes.It's pretty, pretty low.
That's really good.
Yeah, we do have a stateincome tax, but it's, it's nominal.
I don't know the percentage,but it's, it's pretty, pretty small.
It's not a big deal.
I imagine we should, well, I'mspeaking of us, we should be grateful

(40:41):
that the assessed value is nownot what we would sell the house
for.
Right, right, right.
With the spike in home prices.Oh yeah, we're probably paying around
9,000 in taxes for 32,50square feet on about an acre and

(41:06):
a half. But the value of thehouse, or not this, but the value
if I sold, if we sold thehouse would be quite a bit higher.
So. Yeah, Right, right. Yeah.They'd be paying a lot more property
tax.
Absolutely.
Yeah. Awesome. Excellent. Soboth Albuquerque, New Mexico and

(41:30):
Tucson have very reasonableproperty taxes. So something to take,
definitely to take intoconsideration when, if you're looking
to move to either of theseplaces and Phoenix as well. I'll
throw that in. It has prettygood property taxes. How about cost
of living, utilities, grocerybills? I know grocery bills have

(41:52):
gone up everywhere, bututilities, Internet in each city,
water. How does that compare? Pam?
Well.
Oh no, you go right ahead, Jeff.
Go ahead, Jeff. I'm a bad host.
No, you're good. It's all good.
I mean, I think the costs arepretty reasonable here. I mean I

(42:17):
was just speaking to aneighbor who was selling her house
and, and I asked her, I saidwhy are your water bills so high?
And, but our water bill isroughly $125 a month now. We're pretty
disciplined about knowing thatweekends are, the rates are lower.

(42:39):
So if we're going to dolaundry, we're going to do it on
the weekend.
We're all, look at you, you'reso good.
Well, it does help. And so,and we all have irrigation systems
so you have to be reallyvigilant about making sure you don't
have leaks. And but we also,we live in Oro Valley so we can watch

(43:00):
the daily usage and even if itspikes sometimes we'll get notified
by the city that you have aspike and to at least investigate
it. So I think water rates arepretty reasonable and so is, so is
gas, the electric. I mean moreand more people are having solar

(43:20):
installed on their, on theirroofs and of course that substantially
can drop your price. And Idon't want to go into the whole solar
decision making process, butcertainly if you have it, you're
likely to spend a lot less onelectric. Our electric bill this

(43:41):
summer, June is our warmestmonth. I think we were at about 420.
But again, it's all relative.I mean some people come in from living
somewhere else and they'llsay, oh my gosh, that's so cheap.
It's not cheap.
It is, right? It's relative.
So I think from a cost ofliving standpoint and compared to
other areas of the country, Ithink most of our expenses are pretty

(44:05):
reasonable.
Okay, how about penn?
I hope sharing those specificexamples of US helps the listeners.
At least you have to kind ofmeasure how big's the house and what's
the temperature.
Yeah, of course. Yeah,Definitely appreciate it. Just for
an example, I'll add inPhoenix, so our electric bills at

(44:30):
the high. I think are close to300 for 1700 square foot during the
summer. And not all the time.It's in the twos and. But in the
winters then you get. We don'tput on the air conditioning and.
Or the heat. We don't very,very rarely have heat on. And so

(44:52):
during the winter months andthe fall we could have $70 bills.
Yeah. Is your. Are you on onefloor mark or two?
One.
Yeah.
Yeah. I don't do stairsanymore. How about you, Pam? What's
cost of living like?
It's pretty similar to whatboth of you have just described.

(45:17):
The average electric bill isabout 150 to $170 a month. And solar
is very, very popular here. Soit really depends on the size of
your house and. Right. And howmany stories you have. And the construction.
Is it adobe or is it notadobe? Which makes adobe or straw

(45:42):
bale are very efficient for.And very popular here. Like our houses,
again, 2,000 square feet. Weprobably. We don't. We don't ever
pop 150amonth in electric andAC and electric in the summer. It's
very, very good. Yeah. I mean,and you get like. We have a friend

(46:03):
that lives in Santa Fe andthey just last year added an AC to
their condo because they'venever had to have it before.
Right. They used to have swampcoolers or nothing.
Swamp, yes. Right. Or nothing.Yep. The water bills, if you are
in the city, they're going toaverage just the same, like Jeff
said, on average of 100,125amonth. We are out in Placidus.

(46:29):
We are on a private well, sowe're 75 a year. So. Yeah, that's
just to pay for theelectricity to keep the well going.
So it's just again, it's all relative.
Yeah. And our water isincluded in our HOA because we're
in an apartment building in acondo, so it's all included. Water,
sewers included.

(46:50):
And what about.
How can I ask a question? Howabout trash and recycling? How big
is your city on trashrecycling? I think that's an interesting.
You didn't have it in there. Yeah.
There. I believe. I mean, wedo. So we live in a. All right, so

(47:13):
our condo has both trash. Wehave like shoots that we throw the
trash down and then we have towalk out the recycles. So as far
as I understand, I mean, werecycle everything that we should.
But then I understand and Iread these articles. I don't know
how true they are, but theydon't recycle what they're supposed

(47:36):
to recycle. And I feel likewe're doing that for nothing. But
I still do my, my job and recycle.
But I think that's a universalproblem everywhere. It's. We don't
really know, but exactly what.
They'Re putting in the recycleand what they're putting in the garbage.
Right.
The same, same thing here. Imean, for us, it's an unknown. We

(48:00):
hear the same stories about,yes, we, we're recycling what we
should be. We have theseparate cans. But stories about,
well, they don't really keepall that stuff separate when, when
they, when they take it away.
So, yeah, I'm like, yeah, whatdo they do with it? They just trash
it. Yeah. Well, okay. Allright, so let's talk a little bit

(48:25):
about the LGBTQ community ineach city. So, Jeff, you want to
start off. Can you describehow the LGBTQ community is in your
city? Is a vibrant community.Are there any gay bars, restaurants,
and a community LGBTQcommunity center in your city?

(48:47):
Sure. I'm happy to because we,we do have a vibrant community in
Tucson. It's a very gayfriendly city and we, we love being
here. It's. And there isthere. I'll talk about communities
because that question alwayscomes up too. And I often see that

(49:09):
question raised by peopleconsidering moving Mark, and they're
asking it on your site aboutneighborhoods and so forth. And Tucson
does not have a specificneighborhood. And I'll just use it
as a comparison to like WiltonManors and Fort Lauderdale.
Like a gay brood.
Yeah, they don't have we. Forthe most part, we don't have it.

(49:33):
We're all over the city andeven where we live. I mean, we kind
of felt like when we moved toOro Valley 10 years ago that we were
kind of on the outskirts ofthe city. And yet I'm doing my part
as a realtor to infuse thisarea with more gays from around the

(49:56):
country. And I, it's true, butI mean.
I joke about, hey, you makecommunity. That's what I do. I want
to make where you go, they'll follow.
Right. So, I mean, I think, Ibelieve it's pretty easy for people
who want to meet other peopleof the same orientation to do that
here. We are not A city of gaybars. I mean, There are probably

(50:18):
two, and. But there's lots ofactivities. There's a. An LGBTQ+
Chamber of Commerce. There areevents throughout the months. I mean,
there's a. There's a monthlyevent. There are individuals who
have taken it upon themselvesto have to organize a weekly happy

(50:39):
hour that moves around todifferent places. I still have it
in my. On my to do list to dothe same thing geographically in
a different area than downtownbecause of the fact that we have
more people up here in OroValley and Marana and that northwest
corridor who I think wouldenjoy it. So there are individuals

(51:02):
who have soirees, and theyhave people over for dinner. There
were meetup groups, and that'show we met people 10 years ago that
we're still close friendswith. There were LGBTQ meetup groups.
And so if you want to meetpeople, there's lots of opportunity
to do that here. And I'mmaking. I know you have a lot of

(51:23):
bars in Phoenix. You have ahuge population compared to us, but.
And I don't know if that's thequantity. I always like to say. I
attribute it to the fact thatthere's all this social media and
ways to meet people now thatwhen we grew up, we didn't have those
opportunities. So you eitherwent to a bar or some other place.

(51:46):
But. So I think we have a veryreceptive group of people that live
in Tucson. It's very liberal,it's very blue, and we live in a
neighborhood of. I woulddescribe it as professionals who.
Most of them are retired. Mostof them are retired. They came from
other places in the country.And yet from the time we moved in

(52:09):
here, we. We were welcome. Andwe just find, you know, not just
the community, but Tucson's avery friendly place.
My two dear friends live.
You.
That you. You sold them toyour house. Their house.
Oh, in Ora Valley.
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah. So is it as. Itdepends on what people want. Right.
I mean, you're going to PalmSprings for three months. You know

(52:31):
what Palm Springs is like, andpeople like that inclusiveness, because
it's just filled with gays.Right. And. But, you know, I'll just
add one thing and then let Pamtalk. But, you know, Bob and I are.
We like diversity in ourlives. So we love being in a community

(52:53):
where, yes, we have some othergay couples in our neighborhood,
but, you know, we like havingdiverse group of friends and have
always have. And so, yeah, andthen there are other people who just,
you know, they.
They just want to hang outwith the gays.
Yeah, yeah.
And I can see both sides tothat. To that too.

(53:14):
Yeah. It's our choice. Butanyway, you're on, Pam. Absolutely.
Pam, you're on.
We are similar, Jeff, in thatwe do not have a gayborhood either.
Like some cities do. Peopleare all spread out. But we do have
an absolutely fabulous queercommunity in Albuquerque and Santa

(53:38):
Fe and really throughout allof New Mexico in Las Cruces. I mean,
we're all just a couple ofhours apart from each other, and
yet every area has supervibrant queer community. We do want
to say on paper we are thesafest state in the country in terms
of protections for our LGBTQIAcommunity. Thankfully to Equality

(54:06):
New Mexico and the aclu, whohave worked diligently for all of
that. We have. There are somany things you couldn't possibly
do them all. Like, we justfinished up with our 10 day way out
West Film festival that takesplace every October and is packed

(54:28):
with fabulous queer films andbrings people from all over to attend.
It's the state's main largestqueer film festival. We have, of
course, Equality New Mexico.We have hra, Santa Fe Pride. We've
got the Albuquerque CommunityFoundation, Pride Circle. I mean,

(54:50):
there's groups like Lezgo NewMexico that do all kinds of events
for lesbians. And they.There's several meetup groups. So
you just. There's two Friendsof Dorothy groups. One of them meets
weekly and in Santa Fe, andone of them meets monthly every other
month. I know of the Santa Fein Albuquerque area.

(55:12):
Yes.
So it's. Yeah, we. And thereare drag events every single weekend.
While we do have three gaybars here, there are other venues
that also are gay friendlywhere there are continual drag events
every weekend. You couldn'tpossibly do them all. I mean, it's.

(55:32):
We have a fabulous drag scenehere, so.
See, Albuquerque has gay bars,but Santa Fe doesn't.
Correct. Yep. They've neverbeen successful in keeping one going.
And yet they have a very largegay community.
But.
Yep.
Yeah, because when I wasthere, I was like, where's the gay
bar? And they're like, oh, wedon't have one. I was like, why not?

(55:53):
And they're like, we don'tneed one. And I thought, oh, okay.
I kind of thought, you needone anyway.
But I think it's nice to have,because me too.
I feel safe. I'm a littlesafer place because if I go to a.
If I go to a mix bar, I don'tknow. Not that I'm hitting a guest
on somebody I just don't.Somebody may take offense of me striking

(56:17):
up a conversation with them.Who knows?
Right. Right. Yeah, it is niceto have, but. Yep. They've not ever
been successful there.
I want, I wonder if that is,if age has any impact on that. I
mean, I would say Tucson's ingeneral is a pretty mature place

(56:42):
and even in the gay community,I mean, maybe it's just because I
don't know a lot of youngerpeople because of my own age, but
I do wonder, because of thesesocial activities and professional
groups that we all have, isthere enough opportunity then for
us to get out and meet andhave friends and strike up relationships

(57:07):
with people? I would say yes.I mean, and I don't know, Mark, in
terms of Phoenix, you have alot of bars.
Yeah. Phoenix is a little bitmore difficult.
Based on the fact that youhave a younger population than Pam's
or ours. I don't know. Butit's an interesting question to pose.
It is.
And we do have that. Yeah, wedo have that bigger population and

(57:28):
that demographic. We're goingto have young people. But then again,
I mean, we have a group herecalled our Gang. It's a gay meetup
group that meets up everyFriday. And I'll give, give that
kudos to Lauren who leadsthat. And he's there almost every,
every weekend, every Fridaynight. And it, they go from bar to

(57:49):
bar to bar to bar. And thereare quite a few bars. Probably he
knows the, the amount. I'msure he has it on a spreadsheet.
But they're, let's say take aguess of 10 at least. And they, and
they're all people our age. Soit's kind of.
You have, you have primetimers too in Phoenix? Yes, because

(58:11):
we have, we have a group hereas well and we have senior pride
too.
I always say I'm too young forprime timers, but I'm really, I'm
not.
Nobody's going to talk aboutthat. There's no. Nobody's going
to talk about that. I'm gladthat you did bring that up, Jeff,

(58:33):
because you're right. That is,I think that has a lot, a lot to
do with it because the gaycommunity in Santa Fe is older. Right.
They're most retired, probably50 plus, where Albuquerque has a
much younger sect. So.
And then you think about theapps that are out there. So, yeah,

(58:56):
people say, oh yeah, there areapps out there. So now there's no
need for gay bars. But I don'tbelieve, I think there's still a
need. How about Pride. Bothcities have pride. Festivals, pride.
Okay, so ours is in Octoberbecause of the heat.
Yes. And we just had ours.

(59:16):
So yeah, ours should be inOctober because it still could be
warm in June.
Yeah, that's right.
You had a full head of hair. I did.
Imagine. Oh, wait, I need.Wait, I love that.

(59:44):
Oh, perfect.
Yes. So I did have a full headof. Okay, on to the next subject.
Crime and safety. So how wouldyou rate the overall crime and safety
in Tucson and Albuquerque? Iscrime in these cities prop. Primarily
property theft or do you seemore violent crime? Now, I know Albuquerque

(01:00:10):
gets a bad rap wherever youspeak to somebody that, oh, don't
go to Albuquerque because ofthe crime. But I know that there
is like petty thefts, carthefts, stuff like that. Pickpockets,
maybe the break house breakins. But tell us a little bit about

(01:00:32):
the crime and shut my mouth upand let.
You're absolutely right, Mark.Albuquerque has a bad rap for crime.
I mean, we hear it all thetime. And I think.
Is it exaggerated or.
I think it's somewhatexaggerated. However, that said,

(01:00:54):
I mean, we don't live indowntown Albuquerque. We live rural
because we like theenvironment and the security. It
does. Historically, we havehad a higher crime rate. The statistics
say that we are 75.6% higherthan the average state.
That's pretty.

(01:01:15):
However, that's pretty high.That's very high. However, it is
declining. Homicides havedecreased by 27%. Robberies have
been. Have decreased by 41%.Motor vehicle and other types of
crimes have decreased by 13%.But. So I think it is getting better.

(01:01:38):
But is it great? Certainly.Certainly not. I mean, where we live,
we don't even lock our doorsmost of the time.
So you think it's mostly likecar theft?
A lot of it is, yep.
And how about home invasion? Idon't like that.
Property crime rate is 1.158per 1000 people. I don't know how

(01:02:05):
that compares to like Tucsonor Phoenix. Do either of you.
I have no idea of the.
I don't know the numbers, butI did read prior to our podcast that
some of our rates aredropping. I mean, we, we have all
of the above. And from what Iread, I mean, there's still some

(01:02:27):
violent crimes, but the. Thosethat are more frequent are either
robberies, stolen vehicles,and things like that. And I would
just add that I'm sure it'strue where both of you live that
it's. It's certain parts ofthe city. I mean, I don't even know

(01:02:48):
that it's downtown here asmuch as it is some other areas of
the city that are just proneto probably, I'm just going to say
homelessness, drug activity.And so it's, it's, it's def. Definitely
geography based or thestatistics are a result of geography

(01:03:13):
based. And then there's goingto be some areas where it's not an
issue at all. So the good newsis I was, when I was reading is that
a lot of our rates havedropped, but it's still. You can't
ignore those numbers and youcan't ignore the fact that it still
happens. Right. So.
Right.
So where you are, Jeff and OroValley, you feel safe going out if

(01:03:35):
you had to walk the dog at 2in the morning?
Yeah, yeah.
And where you are in Placidus,not an issue either.
No, no.
How close is your nearestneighbor to us?
Probably about a quarter of a mile.
Oh, okay. So that's. Yeah,that's out there. That's out there.

(01:03:58):
That's a rural area.
Yes, Placidus is. Well, partsof Placidus where we are is. We're
a little bit more removed.We're on the outer skirts of it.
Very good.
And to Jeff's point, it reallydepends on the part of the city.
Like any city, it depends onthe neighborhood.
And does Albuquerque andTucson have a homeless issue?

(01:04:24):
Oh, yeah, yeah. I'm not sureof the percentage. But I mean, is
there a city in the united.That doesn't.
That doesn't. Not really. Notthat I know of.
No.
No, we definitely have it. Butyou know, there are. Gosh, it's just
there are certainintersections where they're going

(01:04:44):
to be out panhandling and. Butthere's so many organizations, including
the city of Tucson, that aretrying to address that topic in the
best way possible to get thesepeople off the street. I mean, many
of whom probably don't want tobe off the street. But. Yeah, I mean,

(01:05:07):
but, but again, I, We'vevacationed in some cities where the
sidewalks are just filled with tubers.
Yeah.
I mean, I don't, we don't seethat here. They have places where
they establish theirterritory, if you will. But some
of that isn't even visiblefrom. As you drive by. But it's quite

(01:05:30):
shocking when you go to. Iwon't even mention city names, but
when you go to cities and yousee. Oh yeah, the sidewalks are just
filled with, with people.
Yeah. In fact, I was walkingdown a street in one of these cities
and there were so many tentsalong the street. We had to go into
the area. It was under ahighway just to get by. So yeah,

(01:05:56):
it's so. And Albuquerque, I'msure, has its issues as well, but
in certain areas of. Probablyof the downtown, am I right?
Yes, just in certain areas.Some are worse than others, but yeah,
there are just sections. Butwe are. They are working. There are
a couple of organizations justlike Tucson that Albuquerque is working

(01:06:19):
on that they are working onmaking hotels into apartments to
get people off the streets,particularly in the winter. Right.
Because we do have. It getscold here for a couple of months
at night. So they are workingon it. I mean, is it ideal? No.

(01:06:43):
Yeah. Here too. Here too. Andkind of feel bad in the summer it's
like 120 degrees and you seethese people just laying out there.
So.
All right. Transportation andwalkability or is there walkability?
We'll start off. Pam, do youhave any. Does Albuquerque have any

(01:07:03):
type. Oh, I know. I'm notgoing to say. I'll let you say it.
Albuquerque does have a bussystem. It's not ideal. Could definitely
use improvement. I would sayit's not really a. There are areas
that are walkable.
The downtown. Like you'renear. Unmute.

(01:07:26):
Downtown. Yes, downtown. Nearunm, Downtown by Old Town, Central
Ave. Off of Central. Right.Yep. All of that is certainly all
walkable. All by theuniversity. Yeah, definitely walkable.
But you get outside of thatarea and it's. You need a car.

(01:07:47):
Yeah. How about. You do haveanother mode of transportation, don't
you? I was there a few yearsago and they were building it.
For me.
Light rail. No.
Are you talking about. Oh,the. The bus system that goes up
and down Central.
That's a bus.
It's a bus system that goes upand down. It is electric. Goes up

(01:08:09):
and down Central. Yeah. No,it's a. It's a electric bus system
and it runs up and down Central.
Okay, got it.
Yeah.
That's all it goes.
That's pretty much all itgoes. There is a. There is a train
that goes from south ofAlbuquerque to Santa Fe, the rail
runner. So if you are. Whichis a really pretty train ride and

(01:08:35):
it takes you about, I'm gonnasay 40 minutes maybe to go from like
Albuquerque all the way up toSanta Fe on the train. Yeah.
Yeah. That's a. That's a good.Yeah, I like that. You can go back
and forth.
Right.
Rather quickly.
Yep. You can take your bikeson it and all that.

(01:08:55):
How about you, Jeff? Anything?Does Tucson have any. I know they
have buses, right?
We do. I mean, I Wouldn'tdefine Tucson as walkable. Although,
I mean, I do know a couple ofpeople who have moved downtown because
there's been so muchrenaissance going on down there with

(01:09:19):
building condos and so forth.And, but I do know people who have
bought and, or rented and justgone down there because they wanted
to, at least for some periodof time, try that lifestyle. Being
able to live downtown, kind ofbe in the midst of all the activities
that downtown offers. I don'tknow that it's a long term choice

(01:09:41):
for them. And in terms ofshopping and groceries and things
like that, I mean there's a,there's a co op downtown and there's
probably a number of otherplaces that you can get groceries,
but it's, it's not going tohave the amenities that you might
find if you had a car and usedthe car instead. But there's definitely,

(01:10:02):
there's bus service, but Idon't know how many years ago now,
but I think since we've beenhere, so maybe it's eight years or
something like that. But wehave a streetcar downtown and it's
really well used. It's limitedin terms of where the reach, but
a lot of it is around campus.And I always see references to like

(01:10:25):
if they're the one weeklyhappy hour, the LGBTQ happy hour,
they, depending on where itis, they may say take the streetcar
because then people can driveand find a parking space at a designated
area where the streetcar stopsand they can take that to downtown.

(01:10:45):
Same thing with some of thearts venues that are on campus and
things like that. So it's,it's very well used. It's, it's,
it's really nice. It was veryexpensive, but it still has a limited
reach. So. But it does kind oftake its roots, take campus into,
into consideration as well.

(01:11:07):
And it's like Phoenix too hasa light rail and you're able to go
from one part of Phoenix tothe other. Mesa Tempe. But the thing
is in the sun, like if you gogrocery shopping, who wants to go,
who wants to be walking aroundin hundreds and 20 degrees? So I

(01:11:27):
still say even though youcould exist here in Phoenix probably
with, without a car, I wouldsay a car is preferable because of
the extreme heat in the summer.
Pam, Mark is doing us a favor.He's promoting our two cities because
he keeps talking about how hotit is in Phoenix.
Right, I know, right. Well, it is.

(01:11:51):
Yeah.
We're always honest about ouranswer, answers, remarks.
Yeah, absolutely. So, okay,let's talk a little bit about arts
and culture in each city. So,Pam, start us off. Any museums or
live theater? What's going onin Albuquerque to keep us interested?

(01:12:12):
Yeah, I think. I thinkAlbuquerque has a vibrant arts and
culture scene. We have tons ofmuseums. The Explora center, the
Native American Culturalcenter, the Pueblo Cultural center,
the National Hispanic CulturalCenter. We've got so many. And they're

(01:12:37):
all great. Really, they're allgreat. And we've got a bunch of like,
the Chemo theater is prettylarge. The Lenzic, which is actually
in Santa Fe, the HispanicCultural Center, a large venue we
have and there as well assmaller theaters. So I think we're

(01:13:00):
certainly not lacking forculture and things to do. And there's
a big focus obviously onNative American heritage, on Native
American art, Southwest art,that kind of thing. Certainly it's
a big jewelry capital with theNative Americans directly selling

(01:13:21):
their items either downtown inOld Town or on the square in Santa
Fe. So I think it's veryvibrant. There's.
You have like a communitytheater, like off Broadway type theater.
Live theater.
Yes. Yep. There are several ofthem. I'm going to say like three
or four of them.
Very good. So I wouldn't. Iwouldn't miss my arts and culture

(01:13:47):
if I moved to Albuquerque.
I don't think you'd miss. No,I think. I think you'd. Yep. You'd
find it challenging to makechoices on what you wanted to do
and what you couldn't dobecause. Yeah. All the opportunities.
How about Tucson?
Same thing. I mean, it dependswhat you want, but you can find it

(01:14:10):
here. I mean, there'sindependent local theater groups.
There's Broadway in Tucsonthat comes to a venue on campus.
It's what's great also aboutjust having the university here because
they have two of their ownmuseums. In addition to the Tucson
Museum of Art, There's acenter for creative photography that

(01:14:31):
has rotating shows. Gosh, Pamwrote her list and I didn't write
my list. We have a gay men'schorus that does numerous performances
throughout the year. There's.There's just. There's a. It's called
the Loft Theater. They dofestivals during the year and then
they. They have a lot of indiefilms. There's never a shortage of

(01:14:55):
activities going on here. Interms of the arts galleries, I wouldn't
be bored. Not at all.
Yeah.
Absolutely not.
I wish we had more dine inmovie theaters here. That's one thing
that I do.
I think we have one of them,but that's it.
Really.

(01:15:15):
Yeah. I think it was a Fad,actually. But I don't know what happened
to them.
Wow.
Yeah, we have. We might haveone. The only dine in is like popcorn.
Oh, wow. Yeah. We were sospoiled living in Dallas to have
like, I don't know, nine ofthem within 15 minutes. Yeah.

(01:15:40):
Oh, that's pretty good.
So I do miss that.
Yeah. I haven't. You know whatmovies. I haven't really gotten to
a movie lately. It's. No, Ijust stream them.
Yeah.
I don't know, Maybe it's lazyretirement or it was even before
that. So.
No, I think it's kind of atrend of. I think people are. Are.

(01:16:01):
It's become a big thing.Right. Movie theaters are all hurting
a little bit because people dotend to stream. We do the same thing.
I mean, I like the sound andthe. And everything else, but I don't
know. I tend to. It's asecret. It's past 5:00pm and I'm

(01:16:22):
in a dark theater.
I'm like, totally.
5, 10.
Well, Mark, you're retirednow. You can go to the matinee.
I go to bed. Jeff. I've beengoing to bat days for like 10 years
already.
Yeah. Yeah.

(01:16:46):
Because I just. Like, what?Even when I was working, even in
New York City, I'd work awhole day. I get up at 4 in the morning
and we. Yeah, here's one. Wewent to Broadway to see Les Mis.
There was a bunch of. Therewas like four of us. No, maybe six
of us. And we just had a pastadinner right in Manhattan right before

(01:17:11):
the show. We get to the show,they dim the lights, and I could
feel it coming on. And I saidto myself, mark, you just spent 100
and whatever dollars on thisshow. Do whatever you can to keep
your eyeballs open. Like, Ineeded toothpicks after a half an
hour, I said, it ain'thappening. Nope. I was out like a

(01:17:37):
light. The next thing I knew,standing ovation. I'm looking around.
I got up and I looked to myhusband and said, no wonder why they
call this Lane Miserables.Because I was miserable. But yeah,
I.
Dinner at Carmines.
In fact, no, I think it wasanother. I've been to.

(01:17:59):
If you ate at Carmines, youwould have eaten a lot of food.
Yes, a lot of food and pasta.And the pasta just did me in.
Yeah, yeah. It's the fault ofthe pasta.
Yeah, that's what I blame it.I was like, yeah. So I saw Les Mis
and I was missing.
Yeah.
I was so miss. So anyway,that's that. So good. Arts and culture

(01:18:25):
Vibrant arts and culturecommunities in both Tucson and in
Albuquerque. Okay, how aboutmy favorite subject? Food and dining.
Yes.
So let's talk a little bitabout restaurants, dining, food experience.
And let's start off with Pamand Albuquerque.
Albuquerque. I thought thiswas fascinating and I love this,

(01:18:48):
that Albuquerque wasrecognized as the top food city to
travel in 2023. And I think wehave so much diversity here in terms
of food culture. Of course,the biggest question is red, green,
or Christmas. Right. If you'veever been to New Mexico, you've heard

(01:19:11):
that term. Everything's aboutthe chili here.
Christmas is both.
Christmas is both. Yep, yep.
I think I tried them all.
Yep. But we've got. There'sNative American cuisine, certainly
New Mexican cuisine, which isnot to be confused with Mexican cuisine.

(01:19:32):
We have a new Mexican here in Phoenix.
Do you? Yeah, we do.
We do too.
Yeah. Is it good?
Yeah, really good.
We have. And we're home toHappy Accidents Bar, which has been
voted the best cocktail bar inthe United States for three years
in a row.

(01:19:52):
Happy Accidents.
Happy, yes. The owner.
How did they get that name?
One of the owners, KateGurwin. They can't. Kate and her
business partner came up withit because drinks can be Happy Accidents.
Right. And so they have justthese great cocktails, both alcohol

(01:20:12):
and non alcohol that they do.And a great food menu. It's really
cool, hip space on Central.It's always busy.
She's getting a kick pack.
Yeah.
Yahoo. Happy Accidents. If youlisten to this podcast, Happy Accidents,

(01:20:37):
Pam and her wife. A free mealwould be really nice.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Right. Okay. So a vibrant foodseat. If you have any Michelin star
restaurants.
At all, there are. Oh, gosh.And to.

(01:20:59):
I can't remember. I've been toone that was.
So Los Poblanos is. And farmto table. Both of them are farm to
table style. Both local andexcellent. Just really excellent

(01:21:23):
in terms of quality of foodand service.
Good.
My favorite subject is food.
That's why I'll never lose anyweight loss.
Poblanos is also known as theLavender Farm.
Another secret.
Yes.
Is a really good cook. Andwhen I come to Tucson, I'm looking

(01:21:44):
for a meal. So, Jeff, how'sthe food scene in Tucson, besides
your kitchen?
Well, it's very diverse andthere's a handful of restaurants
that have been around for along time and are extremely well
known with different cuisine.The El Charro has a bunch of locations,

(01:22:10):
but they're downtown andthey've been around for a long time.
Often known as one of thosetop Mexican restaurants. In the country.
Tucson. I don't know when thishappened, but they have been identified
by UNESCO as a official. Acity of gastronomy.
Wow.
Yeah. So. And we have a lot ofethnic restaurants which we love.

(01:22:34):
Vietnamese, Thai, Korean,Japanese and the list goes on. Sometimes
I'm. I'm a little disappointedthat they all test further from us
where we live downtown. But,you know, it's. They. They stay up
later down there then. And whynot? They're. They're doing the right

(01:22:54):
thing. We have one. Well, atleast one restaurant group that has
a bunch of differentrestaurants. And Mark, you probably
know it. Fox.
Fox. Yeah, we just went toone. I think the Henry is.
Yeah, so. And they've beenexpanding outside of Arizona, but
so they have quite a fewdifferent restaurants. So. Yeah,

(01:23:16):
there's a lot. A lot to choosefrom. Really good food. And I was
just. Recent. There was avegan and vegetarian festival. I
don't remember where theyhosted it. Outside somewhere. And
then all these restaurants. Ormaybe they were. Maybe they were

(01:23:37):
mom and pops who just, youknow. Because vegan and vegetarian
is. Has. Has gained a lot of attention.
Yeah.
And so. And then we have a lotof food trucks too. And I mean, I
can't tell you the names ofthem. I don't. I don't remember.
But you know, they're all overthe place as well. So.
Believe it or not, I was onlyin Tucson once and it was just a

(01:24:00):
date thing. And we stoppedinto. What's that Hotel Congress,
where you go on the outsideyou like. They have this outside
area.
Hotel Congress.
Old. It's old. Very. Yeah.Historic. It was beautiful.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Actually they. I don't know,it's fairly recent. They have. It's

(01:24:23):
called the Century Room in theHotel Congress and I think it's pretty
much weekly. They bring in alot of jazz musicians. And so picture
the dark wood, the long room,the little stage at the end. Smokey
Martini. They're not smoking,but you know, the old martini bars.

(01:24:45):
And they apparently bring infabulous performers in there.
So.
And I'll put a plug in becauseI forgot to mention this in one of
the questions, but Tucson hasone of the largest book festivals
in the country. And it'salways in March, I think around the
first weekend it's on campus.And they bring all kinds of authors

(01:25:09):
in over the course of aSaturday and Sunday weekend. And
I've tried to convince Dave tocome down.
Didn't he come down once?
I don't think so.
I thought he did a book even.
If he didn't want to promotehimself just to come and see it because
they'll have panelistsspeaking, they'll have individuals,
they have a culinary tent. Ofcourse, the university has all kinds

(01:25:33):
of tabling going on. But yeah,it's, it's for people that are readers
or even if you're not, it'sjust a great event to come to.
What time of year is that, Jeff?
March. It's, it's usually likethe first weekend of March, which
we always say. March is one ofour best weather months.
So we'll have to take a littleclass trip. Yeah, we'll have to do

(01:25:57):
meetups.
Yes, we will.
Where to Gays retire meetups.
There you go.
In fact, in fact, this mightbe on the agenda, so I might be doing
some zooms in the future. Andthat's how I really started off with.
So people that move todifferent places that really don't

(01:26:17):
know community or haven'tbuilt the community or don't know
anybody. I would, I'm thinkingof just like picking a city saying,
okay, anybody in putting,posting an event, anybody that lives
in this city, join the zoomand then get to know one another
and say what you want to say.And I'm all about building community.

(01:26:39):
So.
Right, we'll see what.
Right, we'll see what happens.
Right. Great idea.
These class trip meetups allover the world, Wouldn't that be
fun?
Wouldn't that be fun?
Yeah. All right, so dining isgreat there in both places. Love
it. In wrapping up, what wouldyou say to our listeners considering

(01:27:01):
moving to Tucson orAlbuquerque? And what's your best
advice for retirees? Decidingbetween these two cities. This is
a good one.
Whoa, that's.
Pam, let's start with you. Putthe pressure on you.
I'm going to say, I mean,between the cost of living, the culture,
the climate, I thinkAlbuquerque is just an ideal location

(01:27:24):
where just we get hot andcold, but the periods are so short.
The weather here is really soideal. It's, it's, it's just hard
to walk away from. And, andthen the cost of living. I mean,
I think hands down, I wouldsay this area of New Mexico is just
quite beautiful and welcomingand affordable. And affordable. And

(01:27:49):
blue. And blue. Yes, that'sit. Yes. And very blue. We hope to
keep it that way.
Yes. All right, perfect. AndJeff, Tucson. What would you say
to our listeners consideringmoving to Tucson?
Well, I would, I would say askquestions. These podcasts provide

(01:28:14):
lots of information. We movedhere 10 years ago, didn't know anyone,
didn't know what Questions toask. We just moved, and fortunately
for us, it worked out reallywell. We had no regrets. Have no
regrets yet. And we loveliving here. The. The people are
very friendly. We have greatweather most of the year. It's still

(01:28:35):
sunny. The months had. It'shot. But. And you know what? There
is really something to sayabout waking up to sun and kind of
taking. We take it for granted and.
But we have over.
Makes a big difference in ourlives. But there's so much to do
here, whether it's outdooractivities, hiking, cycling, and

(01:28:58):
if you want to ski, MountLemmon is at about 8,500ft. And as
long as they get snow and theyget a lot, you can. There's a ski
slope up there. The food'sgreat. The people are nice. We have
a large community. Yes. We'reblue. And one thing we really didn't
talk about, Mark, is theclimate in Arizona is so varied that

(01:29:22):
we both live in cities thatcan get hot. But there's so many
places close by, places by inArizona, like Flagstaff or Prescott
further north. And then if youwant to go a little bit further,
you can go to New Mexico andyou can go to California. We're five
hours from San Diego, and us,too. There's so many other places

(01:29:45):
to go if you want to just getaway for a weekend. So.
Yeah, that's the beauty ofliving here.
Reach out to Pam, reach out tome, and we'll answer your questions
and.
Absolutely. Or reach out tome, and I'll get you to the right
person.
Connected. Right?
Yeah. So thank you both againfor taking the time, being so informative

(01:30:08):
and just enjoying. I enjoyedthis immensely podcast, and you bring
a lot of. You bring a lot ofinformation and great stuff to the
gay community, to the LGBTQcommunity. Thank you so much.
Well, Mark, thank you forputting all this. Yes, Mark, you
deserve all the credit,because I'm sure if they don't. If

(01:30:28):
your listeners don't knowyou've been doing this on your own
time at all different timezones, and you're still doing it
and expanding. We started. Wemet through Zoom.
Yes, we did.
Talked about Tucson. And soyou've expanded the palette. And
if people that are listeningdon't know, Mark has invested a ton

(01:30:50):
of time to bring you thesepodcasts and information, so he deserves
the credit.
Thank you. Thank you. Iappreciate that very much.
Yeah.
Oh, yeah. Oh, let's try andhow. You know, what a cheer.

(01:31:21):
Love it.
This is the best, best podcast here.
It won't stop. All right, sothank you. Thank you. Thank you.
Thank you.
Oh, thank you, Jeff. Thankyou, Mark. Thank you both. It's been

(01:31:44):
a pleasure and an honor to beon here with both of you.
Thank you very much. And we'lltalk soon on the next one.
All right.
Okay, thanks.
Thank you for listening to theWhere Do Gays Retire? Podcast. If
you enjoy today's episode,please subscribe to our podcast and
consider making a donation byclicking the coffee cup on any page@ww

(01:32:06):
gaysretired.com each cup ofcoffee that you buy costs $5 and
goes towards helping uscontinue the podcast. Thank you for
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