3. Frankie doesn’t need the American Dream to feel complete.

I talk with my friend, Frankie. He shares how growing up with loving and emotionally intelligent parents gave him the freedom to figure out his own pathways in life. We talk about the pressure, or lack of it, to follow traditional, heteronormative timelines, aka the American Dream. We get into the hope we both have for generational shifts that make more room for openness and, honestly, more privacy. Frankie also shares how he finds purpose in volunteer and union work and how he navigates friendships as people around him start having and raising kids. He creates his own timeline with conviction and aligns it to his own values. 

New episodes drop every Thursday. 

Let’s Stay Connected:

Email: [e-mail]  / Behind-the-scenes + reflections: thisclockpod.substack.com /  Instagram: @thisclockpod

Episode Transcript

(00:01):
Hi, you're listening to Who SetsThis Clock?
I'm the podcast creator and hostMarguerite.
On this podcast, I talk with my guest about the life pass we
take or don't take when it comesto having kids, along with other
types of societal clocks that take around us.
I have candid, personal conversations with people from a
wide range of perspectives. I also explore how our

(00:24):
relationships shift when friendsand family start to have kids.
New episodes come out every Thursday.
Thank you so much for listening.In this episode, I talked with
my friend Frankie. He is someone who continues to
inspire me with his honesty and unapologetic sense of self.
This conversation reminded me how I love his strong opinions

(00:44):
and his deep self-awareness. While listening, I hope it
encourages you to think about the systems we inherit and the
kind of support that helps people grow into themselves
fully. All right, let's get in today's
episode. I'm here with my friend Frankie.

(01:20):
I was lucky to meet him during an internship program at a
museum in Lai, actually rememberthe first day of our
orientation. Our friendship grew during that
summer and we've been friends ever since for about 16 years.
I'm so glad to have been his friend for this long, and I'm
looking forward to this conversation today.
So hello, Frankie, welcome to the podcast.

(01:41):
To start, can you tell me a little bit about yourself for
our listeners? Like how old you are?
Who do you live with and do you have kids?
Absolutely, and I too am so gladto have been friends with you
this long as well. And just to navigate life with,
you know, someone who you consider a soulmate, which does
not necessarily have to be a romantic partner or something I

(02:02):
really believe in. And Marguerite is definitely one
of those for me. Thank you.
My name is Frankie and I'm born and raised in San Francisco Bay
Area. I've also lived in Los Angeles
and in Chicago for a few years for school.
I'm currently, I'm back in San Francisco, where I've lived for

(02:24):
about 10 years now. You know, obviously a very queer
Mecca, a place like liberal politics, which is wonderful.
And that very much is in alignment with, you know, my
life and my priorities and my values that I live by as well.
I work at an Art Museum in San Francisco.

(02:46):
Two of them actually, and work in the communications
department. So that's what I do to make
coin. But that's definitely not, you
know, the summary of how I identify.
I also am really involved in local politics and in
volunteering for queer organizations.
And one of the things I'm most proud of right now is also that

(03:07):
I am a steward for my union, which represents, you know, 150
of my work colleagues. And we're currently negotiating
our next union contract, which is something that takes a lot of
time and energy, but it's something that I really believe
in as when you have extra energyto give, to really give it
fully. And with the union, because it

(03:29):
benefits such a large group of my colleagues who I care so
deeply about, seems like such a great opportunity to give your
energy and fight for something that is, you know, literally
working to increase people's wages.
And so that's something that gives me a lot of value too.
Amazing. Yeah.
It's interesting on what people think of themselves and what
they share here in the intro because it doesn't give a

(03:50):
complete picture of your life. And thank you for sharing things
that bring you joy and matters in your life.
You know, there's a lot of depthand complexities to that.
And also for the soulmate thing,yeah, we, you know, I believe
that there are multiple soulmates.
That's something that we both believe in, that you have more
than soulmate, 1 soulmate in your life.

(04:12):
And there's a few people that you can really deeply connect
with, and you're definitely one of them.
Yes. Oh, and so I'm also 36 years old
for a few more months and currently I'm about to move into
a new place on my own, going to be living on my own for the

(04:32):
first time in my entire life, which is something that is not
scary. It's actually, I'm very much
looking forward to it seems verythrilling moving into a new
neighborhood in San Francisco that is very pedestrian
friendly. So I'm very excited about that.
And I think kind of the one of the major questions on this

(04:53):
podcast is do I have any kids? And the answer is a very loud,
resounding no. No, I've never lived by myself.
So I'm just really excited to hear about this journey for you
and how that experiences becauseyeah, I've just, I've never
experienced that before. So yeah, I'm very excited for
you and want to hear your journey.

(05:15):
So I want to get into what did you imagine life to be like at
this age? And that can be like any
anytime, whenever you imagine. Like what would I be like in my
30s? If I think about what I thought
about being adult would be like,as like a little kid, I'm very

(05:36):
lucky that my parents, my, you know, immediate family, my
extended family always really encourage being creative.
And that, you know, when you're a little kid and people ask you
what you want to be when you grow up, that family members
would answer for me and say, well, he's going to be an
artist. Which, I mean, I don't think

(05:59):
there's that many people whose families are like, yeah, you're
going to be an artist. And all of the Christmas gifts,
all the birthday gifts I would get were paint sets and pantel
sets and just art supplies as far as I could see.
So I think that when I was a little kid, I always like knew
and hoped that I would be an artist.

(06:19):
And then, you know, maybe in adolescence realizing like, like
I enjoy the arts, but I'm not necessarily going to practice
them as like a career necessarily.
Although I do craft very intensely.
It's somewhat seasonally, but I definitely do craft.
And I think, you know, in high school and I went to a pretty

(06:42):
competitive college preparatory high school where it was very
much about identifying where you're going to go to school,
what your interests are, how to advance those things.
And I remember on, you know, college applications where
you're asked to declare a major in your application.
And it was very easy to say art history and public relations on

(07:04):
all of those applications. I was very lucky that in even in
high school, I took, you know, an entry level AP art history
class that was taught by an amazing teacher who just had
such a wealth of knowledge and used the textbook as, you know,
the primary document to teach from.

(07:25):
But also would tell you like thesassy stories about
Michelangelo, Michelangelo and Leonardo's rivalry and really
centered it in kind of biographies and human
experiences. So felt really well prepared and
excited about going to college for that.
And then throughout college had internships at several major

(07:45):
museums in Los Angeles, which ishow you and I met as well, which
led me very confidently to be like, yeah, I'm definitely going
to go to grad school to pursue this further.
And the economy sucks and I'm still a child, so I don't know
what taking out 10s of thousandsof dollars in student loans
really means. And felt like, oh, I'm

(08:06):
definitely going to go to grad school.
The job economy is really bad. Surely it'll get better, which I
think this like recurring systemof recessions every 3-4 years
since we've been quote UN quote adults is something that I've
seen a lot of people of our generation also contribute to
people's decision to or to not, you know, have kids as well too.

(08:32):
Our generation doesn't have a lot of money.
So I think that, you know, the economy is definitely something
that contributes to people's as it should, very serious
conversations around pursuing children or not.
So I guess, I guess I'm broadly speaking, I do feel like this is
where I anticipated being. I think there are things that
I'm not disappointed by. I think they're things that I'm

(08:54):
surprised by and pleasantly shocked by.
You know, I don't know that I ever thought I was going to be
so deeply involved in my union. It's something that really
pleases my parents because both of my parents were deeply
involved in their unions when they worked for the airlines
back in the 80s. So that's something I think is a
little surprising. You know, probably if I ask my

(09:17):
parents if they're surprised about where I am, I think that
they would just be so proud and pleased that I'm kind of, you
know, back at home working for one of like some of the largest
museums in the area and do something that I'm so passionate
that brings me happiness. And I think that that's all my
parents ever wanted for all of my siblings was like for us to

(09:38):
be able to pursue lives that were fulfilling and that made us
happy. That's amazing.
Yeah. I was going to follow up with,
you know, was there a disappointment?
But it sounds like your parents,well, I know your parents are
very supportive. And at some point, the artist's
idea must have fallen along the way.
So you know, you know, these ideas change about who you're

(10:00):
going to be. But it sounds just so lovely.
It sounds so lovely to hear likehow supportive they were and are
of your growth and also just your career trajectory and your
life trajectories in general. Yeah.
And I think going back to the topic of the podcast, I was
thinking about, you know, I don't think that there was ever

(10:20):
really any pressure from my parents to have kids.
Both my parents have siblings. My dad has more, but I've never
felt the pressure from them to ever be like you need to have
children to have a full and complete life.
I think both my parents really discouraged my little sister and

(10:41):
I especially to not even consider getting married before
age 30 because they wanted us toreally be fully realized
individuals on our own before wewould kind of commit to a a
serious relationship like that. Yeah, I interviewed my friend
from college and her parents gotmarried when they were the year

(11:01):
after they graduate from college, and they said the same
to all their children. They were like, just live your
life, There's no rush. So I think there might be a kind
of shift in different generations, and there might be
a kind of shift happening now. So yeah, it's just very
interesting for me to hear the same story from your parents and
how that trickles down. I mean, I think I acknowledge

(11:22):
that so much of my world views and principles and values are so
deeply shaped by my parents, youknow, my grandparents, my
extended family as well. Yeah, and there wasn't any
external voices like extended family telling you like how to
live your life. I think that, you know, growing
up as a queer person, you alwayskind of knew those questions

(11:47):
were going to come around just like, oh, I haven't seen you in
years since last Christmas. Like do you have a girlfriend?
Very like heteronormative relation, like the questions,
you know, maybe it's a generational thing where it's
like hardwired, right? And it's the whole questioning
about a heteronormative relationship is just a precursor
to the follow up, which once youhave that is then, oh, when are

(12:11):
you thinking about having kids, which is such a deeply personal
an inappropriate question to askpeople as well, too.
I think about my friends who arewomen who were peppered with
those questions who might have been having challenges with
fertility or for a whole bevy ofreasons might not have been

(12:33):
wanting to pursue having children.
And so it seems like such a generational shift of like this
is this kind of like automatic question that's asked.
And then to see, especially withpeople being more open around
things like fertility issues, you know, things like the
challenges with getting pregnant, staying pregnant, even

(12:56):
bringing a child to term in manycases, I've seen women in my
generation talk more bravely andmore openly about it, which I
think I'm so impressed by those frank conversations.
You know, I've had a couple women in my life, you know, lose
their pregnancies for various reasons and to talk openly about

(13:17):
it. Just not that it normalizes it
or takes away the pain of it, but that it at least makes it
seem more truly as common as those things happen.
Which I think trickles into likepeople checking themselves when
they ask things like, oh, when are you getting married or oh,
when are you having a baby? Because there's it's such a

(13:38):
personal question. And it's also kind of no one's
business. Yeah, no, I agree with
everything you said. And I do hope there's a
generational shift and that we're much more aware of that.
And I think that's also why I wanted to start this podcast.
I do tend to hear more stories, and somehow my conversations
with friends have been very openand honest about some of these

(14:00):
experiences about childbirth or wanting to have a kid or trying
to have a kid. So yeah, I think those
conversations are important to have and I think people in
general just want to feel less lonely in that experience too.
I think, you know, I'm hoping there's a shift on, on that and
now of not asking people their status and it just feels so

(14:22):
commonplace to ask that, but I'mhoping it's shifting towards.
Not and then it's, you know, I think the conversation is also
which people maybe you and I have with each other a lot too,
which is people who are very confident in our it's not even a
decision in our knowing that we do not want or need to have

(14:43):
children too. Like that sometimes is like a
whoa, you know, But I think thatmaybe as a queer man, it's like
the expectations are very different too, because, you
know, try as I might like, I'm not going to be, you know,
creating a pregnancy of, you know, my relationships.

(15:05):
So I think that the the tone andthe questioning is colored a
little bit differently because of that as well.
Yeah, that's a good point. A little bit different in that
sense. OK.
I want to talk about, I think you've already touched on it and
I think I've added in this question as I've interviewed
people and I want to know what you love most about your age
now. As someone who's recently

(15:28):
started therapy as well, I thinkabout how I process how I feel,
how I can act from all of the emotions that are swirling
around inside my head. And I love this age right now
where I feel very self aware of the fact that my brain and

(15:53):
probably my heart too, are like completely different organs than
the way they were like a decade ago, right?
And that my brain can like process like a supercomputer in
comparison to the way it did in my early 20s or as an
adolescent. That I can hold multiple

(16:18):
conflicting thoughts, feelings, concepts, opinions from people
in my head all at the same time and have them color each other,
have them inform each other, have them be rapidly or
sometimes slowly changing. And that I'm self aware of that.
But that also I can be very at peace with that and very pleased

(16:42):
by that and very satisfied by that.
I think that that's something that I really love about this
age and that also I don't have alot of, you know, distractions.
You know, I don't, I'm not raising a family.
I'm, you know, recently out of aserious relationship, but that I

(17:04):
think to just kind of be there for me.
I get to enjoy it for me, not have a lot of distractions.
Some people might claim that it's selfish, but that like I
really am only accountable to meright now.
That doesn't mean I'm a jerk to my friends and my family, but
it's, you know, it's very freeing also to be able to have

(17:24):
this satisfaction about like themind and heart working in new
ways. And then also that I just get to
sit with it and celebrate with it and dance with it and not be
kind of held accountable to other things that other people
might be. Yeah, being I think you said
that kids are a distraction. Yeah, well, just like out of the

(17:45):
necessity then. And I've recently been spending
some time with some little kids and I, you know, it's just a
very different lifestyle. And I have a lot of very close
friends who have kids at different ages and every parent
kid relationship is very different.
And you know, by virtue of if you have family around, if you
have support, if you have monetary means, like those are

(18:07):
all huge, huge factors. Yeah, I was teasing you a bit.
Yeah, I just want to say that I really admire how attuned you
are to your body and emotions. And I think over time with your
age, there comes that wisdom. And I just feel like you're so
tapped into how you're feeling. And then with this whole brain

(18:28):
and heart thing too, that's kindof amazing.
I just feel like not everyone taps in that deeply.
So it's quite beautiful that you're you're that attuned to
that. Yeah.
I mean, the way your brain processes the world versus like
your heart, whether it's like actually physically in that
organ or not, it's something else.
And sometimes the mind stuff is a little easier to keep track

(18:52):
of. And you know, your note about
how you can hold multiple emotions, You know, I didn't
know that for a long time. And I went to therapy again
during the pandemic, and that's when I really understood that.
She said, you know, you can feelsad and happy.
And I was like, wow, yeah, you can really hold 2 emotions.
It's like really enlightening. And that really helped me a lot.

(19:14):
It's like, well, I can hold morethan one emotion at the same
time. And that's like life changing.
My therapist presented this likekind of like color wheel to me
and it was like a kid. It's like just primary colors
and then like or toddlers just primary colors.
And then like a kid is like primary and secondary colors.
And then like a teenager it's like, whoa, we're getting a lot
more. And then as an adult, it's like

(19:35):
a whole wonderful spectrum and it's probably multiple spectrums
laying on top of each other. And I can imagine that that
would be can be very overwhelming as well, just as
like a little kid with fewer emotions might be overwhelming.
But it's just that like the adult brain I really believe
does have the capacity to handlethat in a lot.

(19:58):
It is more suited to deal with that as well.
Yeah, that's interesting. So, yeah, those are all such
great points. So now we're going to pivot.
So, you know, I think we've talked about societal pressures
and that you've had a really supportive environment.
Do you feel like there has been any societal pressures to, you
know, make the mark or hit? I want to say, like

(20:20):
heteronormative milestones? You know, we have the big one
like getting married and then wetalked about having kids and
then of course home ownership. Like those are the top three and
those this pop up for people when I talk to them.
So I just want to touch on that.Like, do you feel these things
loom for you? Do you feel pressure to to meet

(20:40):
all those 3? Oh yeah, yeah, I think I've had
conversations with my parents specifically about all three of
those that I can like I rememberlike specifically the
conversations and think the first one was like even in
college, me telling my parents like, well, I don't want to have
kids ever. And there was this moment of
like, well, you might change your mind, which I think a lot

(21:02):
of people think about. And I think that that's also a
like a response that I think a lot of young LGBTQIA or queer
people get when they, you know, come out to their families as
well too, is, well, this is justa phase, you know, or you might
think differently about it one day, which is such a sad thing.

(21:25):
And I, I hope that many parents,you know, even I think about
like young little queer babies, like as they come out to their
parents, I hope that we're getting to a place where it's
more normalized, where the knee jerk reaction isn't to, to say
that to a kid. Because I do think that LGBTQIA

(21:46):
kids know from a really early age as well as adults who are in
their lives know at a really early age too, that their kid is
just queer or different. And it doesn't have to be about
labels either. But I think the parents don't
acknowledge that. Like, they know something's up
as well too. So I think that when I told my

(22:06):
parents, like when I never want to have kids, that was the the
initial response, which was funny, but that was 15 years
ago. So I think they've come to terms
with the fact that I'm never going to have kids.
And then the other milestone of marriage, I have three sisters
who are all married and who all had marriages and weddings.

(22:30):
And, you know, I don't mean to say this is a criticism, but,
you know, very heteronormative. White dresses.
Different kinds of venues as well, too.
And I think, like, I remember atsome point, maybe after my last,
my little sister got married, telling my parents like, well, I

(22:50):
don't want to have a big weddinglike this.
Like, I wouldn't do this. I think I might, like, run away
and get married and, like, not invite any of you.
And my mom just, like, burst into tears.
And she's like, well, I would beinvited, right?
And I was probably in a sassy mood and was just like, well, I
don't know, maybe not. But she's so fun.

(23:13):
But even to have that exchange with my mom was important to
know that even if if and when I get married or have a kind of
ceremony to commemorate it, evenif it's not something that's
like really not that important to me, that it's also like,
hello, weddings are really important to the people that are
involved in the weddings, sometimes even more than the

(23:33):
people. I feel like it's all more than
the people, more than the couple.
Yeah, Yeah. That's how I yeah.
So I think, you know, I like being honest and transparent.
And luckily I'm in a place, especially with my parents,
where we get to exist in that high state of transparency and
honesty. Yeah.
You know, I think like in an ideal world, and I'm like I

(23:55):
said, recently single in an ideal world, it would be like a
small ceremony. Obviously now I know my mom
would have to be involved maybe at like City Hall in San
Francisco, which is such a beautiful wedding venue.
And then just like go have like a really fun party and have it
be like have a bunch of friends create like decor and

(24:16):
decorations and have it be like a disco party inside of a geode
like with tropical plants. That's like my fantasy dream and
wouldn't have to be something splashy.
I think like the other like the like the wedding industrial
complex is also something that Ithink about not infrequently.
I don't have any weddings this summer and it's like the first

(24:37):
so long time I haven't had or first year I haven't had any
weddings. Yeah, but I just think about the
scale and the costs of some of these things.
And I think that, like, the expectations and the
significance of the day are thentied up into capitalism and also
waste. And so I think for all those
reasons, I'm very hesitant to, like, ever want to say I want to

(24:58):
do that. And also, like, nobody wants to
be put into debt because they threw a party.
Like, that sounds really sad. I think I already told you that.
Yeah. My parents have always said
like, you don't need to feel like you need to get married
before the age of 30, right? Before the age of 30.
Oh, and then home ownership, it's like who can afford a house
in this economy? Like that's.
And when my little I'll just follow up the third one thing,

(25:22):
when my little sister and her husband, I'm so proud of them,
bought a beautiful home, you know, like maybe a mile and a
half away from my parents. My dad offered to me, you know,
son, it's OK. Like you'll be, you'll get a
house one day too. And I told him like, oh, thanks
for that, like offering that comfort, but I don't know that I

(25:43):
have any expectation or also desire to ever own a house.
I told them, and my father is a is an immigrant and came to the
United States when he was three years old.
And I told him, like, I don't know that I ever want to own
that house. You know, like that's just not
my American dream. And I think that that is this

(26:04):
false narrative also tied into capitalism that we have to work
hard. And if you work hard, you'll be
able to own a house. Like that's not necessarily my
end goal of my life and how I want to spend my time and
energy. So I just kind of shared with my
dad like that's not necessarily something that I need either to
make me happy and feel complete.So it's think it's like those
three things, right? A kid, a home and a marriage.

(26:26):
I don't know that those are things that I need in my life to
feel 100% complete. And I love being able to talk to
my parents as adults, as I am anadult now, like those things.
And then my dad had followed up like a week later being like, I
hope that you don't judge me, that that was my American dream

(26:46):
that I worked really hard for. And I told him like, no, of
course not. I don't judge you for that.
Like, I'm so proud of you that, you know, your family came here
from Mexico, that they all worked really hard to support
you. You worked really hard to create
a life and support your kids. Like I don't judge you for that
at all. Like just, you know, so it's,
it's kind of this seeing each other, seeing perhaps a

(27:10):
generational divide, seeing the commonalities, but also the
differences that lead our lives in different paths and being
very happy and content with it despite the differences.
Yeah, that's a lovely that your dad followed up like that.
Like he must have reflected on your response.
And that's like so nice to say that to like from a, from a

(27:33):
parent to A to their child. And also like an apology from
your parents is so nice sometimes, like especially when
they're truly are seeing you as an adult and recognizing that
too. And, you know, I should also say
that I do believe you should apologize to your kids and when
your kids are younger, But yeah,like, kids need apologies.

(27:54):
So that's that's really beautiful.
Even my mom was apologizing to us as kids to really
demonstrating this. I don't know.
It's not like treating us like adults.
So just like treating us with kindness and also with the
communication too, which I thinkis a generational thing from
her. You know, she's like, oh, the
way I was raised, it was very strict and like, you know, you
weren't spoken to as if you were, like, an emotional

(28:18):
creature as a kid back then. And I think my mom has a very
high level of emotional intelligence.
Sometimes my therapist is, like,where do you think you've got
yours? And I'm like, oh, it's
definitely, like, starts with mymom specifically, too.
Yeah. Wow, yeah, that's lovely.
Just going it back a little bit and now you've described your
like ideal wedding. I just, I just have to go like

(28:41):
you're in a geode like I want togo.
Well, you will definitely be there.
Yeah, that sounds amazing. So you, you know, you hit the
top three at any point, do you feel like home ownership was in
was in the cards for you? Like, you know, for me, I
remember I was reading journals from around elementary school

(29:05):
and I wrote like when I was 25, I was going to buy a house and
have two kids and it's the same thing.
Like we just we're just five thesame things and told a certain
path and I was thinking like that's so early in elementary
school to think about that. Like for you, did you check in
on yourself on like the home ownership thing or did it just

(29:25):
kind of naturally kind of progress that way?
That's a good question. I mean, I just think that the
cost of even renting throughout our adulthood memory has been so
expensive, right? Ridiculous, but it's like.
And then having for, at least for me, this huge cloud of
Monopoly money of student debt that you're like, well, like,

(29:47):
it's not money I ever held in myhand so.
Yeah, it does pull imaginary sometimes.
For better or for worse, I'm like, whatever.
It's like pretend money, you know, And then especially being
in California, especially being in the Bay Area, especially
being in San Francisco, and it'sjust like, the city is almost an

(30:08):
island. It's like on the tip of the
peninsula. There's not that much land on
which to build here. Yeah, Yeah.
So it's, and I just, I don't, I guess, also like the idea of
home ownership to which is obviously deeply steeped into
white supremacy and capitalism that you are hoarding

(30:31):
intergenerational wealth in property, right?
Which for, you know, for my dad,right, that's the American
dream. And it's a means by what you
provide for yourself and your family and your generations that
follow you, right? So it's not necessarily an evil
thing, but it's very much the model of white supremacist
culture, right? Having access to home ownership

(30:53):
or denying access to home ownership is a means of keeping
that for only some kinds of people.
And so I guess knowing that I never want to have kids, I do
think there's probably less pressure to hoard or to manifest
earned capital wealth into a physical structure of a house.

(31:17):
There's just less pressure for me, yeah.
I mean, I feel like you did a nice full circle on that.
So yeah, good. So I'm wondering, have there
been any kids in your friendshipcircles that really impacted and
influenced you and I guess also in your family circles as well?
I'll start with my family. My oldest sister has two kids

(31:39):
who are teenagers, and it's so hard to believe that, you know,
talking about the. Wait, they're.
Teenagers, the passage of time is like is real.
Oh my goodness, I just like remember the pictures you sent
and they were like them. Used to be like, my gosh.
And I think about this video of my littlest sister actually was

(32:00):
the nanny to them for for a while when they were like little
toddlers. And there's this video of us
like singing Charlie XX like I don't care.
And they're just like screaming at the top of their lungs inside
of Starbucks. And it's like kind of
embarrassing, but also super sweet.
And that also makes me realize like how long Charlie has been

(32:21):
around in my consciousness as well, which is like mind.
Blowing. Yeah, like over a decade, yeah.
So being an uncle is something that I, I really much enjoy.
I think also, you know, I was talking to my mom too about like
how relationships in family and friendship, especially ones that

(32:42):
are lifelong, go through ebbs and flows and how that that's
OK. And that's a very natural thing
and it's to be expected. And that not everyone has a
perspective though. So I think there've been
sometimes where maybe, you know,I've gotten the critique that,
you know, you're not there enough, you don't spend enough

(33:03):
time with us. You know, I'm always kind of, I
take that feedback and think on it and also try and offer that,
you know, fabric cuts both ways,right, a lot of the time.
Yeah, wait. This is for your friend.
It's for your friend. Group for friends and family.
Yeah, it's. OK, in general.

(33:25):
But I'm also my little sister just had a baby six months ago
and she is just, I love her so much.
You know, I think about how muchI love my little sister, who is
very close in age to me, who, you know, is my lifelong first
best friend. And it is crazy to me that she

(33:47):
is a mom. And I just love being able to
witness this, like this depth oflove that I see beaming out of
my sister's eyes at her daughter.
And I see the way that her daughter looks at her.
And it's this just like so uncomplicated, like animal love

(34:13):
almost right. And I feel like as someone who's
part of baby Annabelle's family that like I do have this like
protective, impulsive, like written into the DNA kind of
love for her so much. And even though, even though I'm
someone who's not around children or babies that often

(34:34):
like I will, I will hold Annabelle while she's screaming
until she stops screaming like it doesn't matter to me.
It's like she's as close as I will ever have to a baby of my
own. And it's wonderful and I love it
so much. And I'm excited about my
relationship with Annabelle being a lifelong relationship
too, right? One that gets to influence and

(34:58):
impact my life. And then hopefully that I get to
influence and impact her life. What you know as well too, which
I also think of as a huge responsibility.
And then I've got some other very close friends who have kids
different ages. And I'd say it's, it's very
interesting to see different parenting styles amongst

(35:19):
different friends and also how the expectations of these
friends for how much or how little I will be involved in
their children's lives as well too.
And sometimes I felt a little bit of pressure where people
might have accused me of like not being there enough with

(35:40):
their friends. And again, I try to always
receive feedback or my friends feelings and thoughts very
respectfully and calmly. But I'd be lying if there
weren't times where, you know, that issue has felt like a
little complicated and has led to maybe some, you know, honest

(36:01):
hard conversations as well too. Because for my friends, it's
like, well, you're my friend. You're the person I'm choosing
to have a relationship with. Like, I don't, I don't know your
kid and I think that. That's such a new perspective.
That might be like more like, you know, like, or for like

(36:23):
friends when they just had babies, you know, like you want
to be there to be with your friend.
You want to hang out with your friend.
You might not necessarily want to hang out with the screaming
baby. And I know that that's maybe not
the like, OK thing to say, but that is what it is.
You know, like these friends of mine that I've had since high
school, college, like you want to go and kick it with them, not

(36:44):
necessarily them and their kid. And it's hard to hold a
conversation when a baby's involved or a toddler's
involved. And that's OK.
That's just like the but I thinkI'm coming to terms with close
friends with these people does in fact mean that I am signing
up for a relationship with theirkids as well too.
It doesn't have to be a deep oneor like, you know, I'm not

(37:05):
necessarily going to be TO Frankie or a godfather to all of
these kids. You know, I don't want to be, I
would be too many, too many kidsas godfather and but it but
there is actually this, this moment of I am friends with this
person in the totality of their whole lives and as a parent, as

(37:27):
a mother, as a father, being a parent is a component of the
totality of their whole lives. So actually I am signing up for
that as well. Too.
Yeah, for sure. That's definitely a realization
that comes into play when your friends start to have kids.
You know, it's that big change, and you learn to navigate around
it. And I know it can be really
hard. I mean, that's why I started

(37:48):
this whole podcast because I really had struggled.
And, you know, sometimes I stillstruggle with it.
And I can feel a lot of emotionsaround it sometimes.
And, you know, I try not to get annoyed or bothered or angry
because those are feelings that do pop up for me.
But yeah, you really do have to be adaptable to other people's
lives. And then sometimes it can feel

(38:08):
unfair and then you have to check in with yourself about
those feelings. So yeah.
And I think it's the adaptability too, that is like
people without kids, the expectation is that the
flexibility and the adaptabilitywill be solely or the majority
of it will be our responsibilityto be the adaptable, the

(38:28):
flexible ones. It falls on that.
I think that that's, you know, it's like, I'm sorry, I can't
come to to meet you during this three hour window that you've
got where you've got babysittersor things like that.
You know, I too have a very fulllife, you know, just because
it's not filled with child care and babies, you know, like my

(38:50):
volunteer work, my union work, my social life are not things
that I'm necessarily going to beso flexible to put on the back
burner to to coordinate a hangout, right.
And I think, yeah. And I think part of it comes
down to just having some honest conversations too.
And some friends get the whole the privilege of the

(39:15):
expectations that as the child holders they get to, we have to
be more flexible around them. And some of them it's less so.
And it's not like I always have hopes that having calm
conversations that of course begin with things like, I love
you so much, I want you in my life so much, that I always have

(39:36):
high hopes that people can have the capacity to reflect and be
kind and respectful and come to like, kind of like transitions.
And again, the lifelong friendships, like ebbs and
flows. There might be a period of three
years of five years where you and I don't talk on the phone
every single day like we used to, but that's just because by

(39:57):
virtue of our lives changing yours and mine, there's going to
be a change in relationship. And kids are definitely a huge,
huge factor in that. Yeah, well, it sounds like
you've had these conversations with your friends because other
people I talk to more often do not have these conversations
straight up and so direct. And you know, that's what I
really love about you, that you have these direct and honest

(40:18):
conversations. But yeah, how did these come up
for you? Can you talk a little bit more
about these conversations that you've had?
Sure. One that comes to mind was kind
of it was in response to, you know, a not so great argument
that happened at Pride actually,in which a friend who has kids

(40:41):
and is straight and is a very wonderful ally in a lot of ways
accused me of not giving them enough attention during Pride.
And I just very calmly said, I love you.
I'm sorry that you feel I've notgiven you enough attention that
today that was not my intention.But I have to tell you that
during this weekend of pride, I am not centering straight people

(41:06):
and straight people's feelings. And it's hard.
And it's been something that hasn't really been resolved.
That's hard. And I think in the course of
this kind of intense argument that was happening, there was
someone on the sidelines who interjected with like, well,
what did you expect? Frankie doesn't like kids.
And it felt like such, it felt like such a oversimplistic

(41:31):
statement. And I don't think anybody wants
to hear value judgement statements about them ever in
any context being said. But to hear this kind of like
like total statement of like, well, Frankie doesn't like kids,
as if somehow that might have been an excuse or a reason for

(41:51):
the argument was really hard to hear.
And I had to I couldn't respond to that right away.
That's something like I'm still kind of working through and
debate like how much to bring itup again, try to address it.
Or is it something that I think,and maybe this is like what
we're saying, like as the personwho's expected to be more

(42:13):
flexible, is it something I justlike let go at the end of the
day? Yeah, thank you for sharing
that. I mean, first of all, it's just
incredible that you've had theseconversations because, yeah,
like I've said before, I've justhad my first really in depth
conversation with my close friend who has 2 little girls.

(42:34):
And that conversation is in the episode with Jenna.
And we said things that we've never said to each other.
And we've been friends for like 20 years.
And so it's just nice to make moments for that.
And you know, some people don't bring it up and some people do.
Yeah. But I am just hearing more often
in the experiences that people often don't bring it up and.

(42:55):
There've been times where like, I thought, this is the moment
we're going to bring about, bring it up, we're going to talk
about it. And then for whatever reason,
you're like, oh, this is not to bring it up.
And then I worry about sitting on something for too long.
Is there an expiration date on when you get to talk about
things? And I do feel like with these
lifelong relationships, there isn't actually an expiration

(43:19):
date on something. It's one thing if you're like
talking about it for years and it feels like you're unable to
move on from it or find some kind of resolution or compromise
around it. True.
But for other things that it's just like I've been the one
sitting in it and sitting and haven't talked about it.
I don't think there's actually an expiration date on some

(43:41):
things if you haven't addressed them at all.
Yeah, interesting. Do you have any tips on how to
navigate through? Like if someone were to ask, can
you give me an advice on how to navigate having friends,
starting to have kids, and maintaining those relationships?
Have you find you found anythinglike successful or helpful in
that way? Maybe I'm just really lucky that

(44:01):
I've got quality people in my life too, yeah.
Yeah. I think I really believe in the
whole like kind of adage like you put out, you receive the
energy that you put out into theworld too.
And this might actually be something going back to your
first question, but like, how doyou think you you've changed or
where you are now? Like, I used to be real sassy

(44:25):
and kind of mean. I just don't like that anymore.
I don't like being like that anymore.
And it's left more room to be kind and compassionate and calm.
And, you know, I think everyone's got a whole lot going
on all the time. We've got our own internal
lives. We've got that our next fear,

(44:46):
which is like our families and our friends.
And then we've got the whole state of the world at large,
which is so messed up in so manyways and it can be really
overwhelming. And so I think it's like to just
try and remember like people have got the stuff that you even
know that they've got going on. And then people have got the
stuff that like you don't even know that they've got going on.

(45:07):
It's like so much deeper. So just like grant people, you
know, an extra layer of generosity and understanding and
patience and then modeling that so that in a way people know
that you expect it back is kind of I think the way that I try
and move through it. And then, you know, therapy,

(45:31):
therapy is great. Everyone should be in therapy.
It's wonderful. Yeah, that's a really good tip
about talking it out with someone.
I had to talk that out with my therapist, especially when I was
going through some health issuesand my relationships were
changing, when my health was changing.
And when you need and when you have big changes in your life,
it's really helpful working thatout with someone and they can

(45:54):
really help you navigate that. I'm thinking about, I'm thinking
about the kids too. It's like I've signed up to be a
lifelong relationship with my friends, my family, right?
If I'm coming to terms with the fact that now, that means I'm
also signing up for a lifelong relationship with their children
as well, too. Like kids stay babies for very
long. You know, kids don't stay

(46:17):
toddlers in their their troublesome twos for very long.
One of my best friends, her son just turned 6 yesterday.
And the way that he is now is like so much more like
gregarious and outgoing. And he's kind of like a COVID
baby, right? Like he lived through some of
the worst of it where like thosekids don't know how to be

(46:37):
social. And to see him like bloom into
such a like kind and funny and like very personable little kid
is like really cool too. So I think it's like kids are
always changing. So like to kind of think like
the like, I would never think this, but to think like, oh, I
don't like so and so's kid like,you know, like they're going to

(46:57):
change and they're going to change really quick and they're
going to keep changing. And it's kind of cool to
witness. And so I'd like try and make a
little bit more effort that alsolike this kid doesn't know me,
they don't know me because I'm not around.
So if I want to get like to a better place with these kids,
like I got to show up too. So I think it's the the trying

(47:20):
to put that effort in while alsomaintaining the self check of
like, am I the one who's always being the flexible 1:00?
AM I being the one that's alwaysthe one to show up?
And just doing those like check insurance with yourself is
really helpful. Really good point of seeing the
balance because there's not always going to be an even
balance. So it's not going to be, you

(47:43):
know, exactly the same. But they're also the friends
that that will reach out to you because.
The childless ones, maybe we have a little bit more luxury to
even be self reflective like that too.
Yes, we have. We just have more time.
I'm agree. I agree with that.
Yeah, again, when I reached out to my friend Jenna in my last
episode and she was saying, you know, thank you so much for

(48:07):
reaching out. And she gave me credit for
reaching out. And I, you know, I was just
thinking that out a little bit more.
And I was just thinking I just have more time.
Like I have more time to think about her and other people and
other friends. You know, outside of the
immediate Zach, myself and my cat, I just have like a little
bit more space to think. And I, and I honestly don't mind

(48:27):
reaching out and she's reaching out more and checking in on me.
I think it's because she's seen the effort that I've been
putting into it. And that's been really nice and
reciprocal, you know, and she was having small kids, so, you
know, I was allowing her that space.
And there's different phases andchanges in relationships,

(48:49):
especially when they have young children and then they start to
grow older. And I do want to go back to your
point about kids changing. That's something that's popping
up throughout this podcast. And it's kind of a challenge and
also a wonderful thing to have when you're noticing kids grow
up. You know, there's different
changes and phases in life. So it won't be the same all the
time. And I'm pretty incredible to see

(49:12):
someone from going from like a newborn and growing up and then
being their own person. But yeah, it's also, I recognize
a challenge because, you know, there's different phases.
Like right now my nieces are going through soccer.
So we now go on the weekends andwatch them play soccer.
And you know, that means that we're adapting to how we're

(49:33):
hanging out and we're spending some time on our weekends to to
watch them play. I think that that's where
grandparents and aunts and uncles get to serve a really
unique role, which is this like additive adult experience where
it's not mom and dad, you're notthe one who's like responsible
for discipline and like the kindof the hard guidelines, the the

(49:57):
hard like direction. You get to be like the one
that's more additive. And also they get to kind of
like skirt the rules that have been established in a lot of
ways too, which is fun. For sure it is.
I guess there's one thing I do want to touch upon as we're

(50:18):
coming to a close. You know, women, they have more
of that biological clock tickingjust due to physicality.
And, you know, we tend to have to think about that decision and
choice, if it is a choice for that person to have kids.
And I just want to touch upon you like your timeline.
And, you know, as a man, do you feel like you're given more

(50:41):
grace because of that? 100% I think the conversations
I've had with my friends who arewomen versus my gay men friends,
right that I've had a lot of friends, you know, like freeze
their eggs and you know, those are concerns that biological gay

(51:06):
men like don't consider at all. Like so like this timeline is
like not. It's so interesting to see how
it's, especially at our age is like something that is top of
mind for people who might not even know that they want to have
kids, but want to are considering preserving the

(51:28):
option to have kids in X way. And it's interesting to see this
like rise in employers offering like egg, egg freezing as or egg
storage as a as a benefit, whichwhich I also think is tied into
capitalism because they're like,you don't need to have a kid
now. We're like letting you like take
your eggs. You know you don't need to have

(51:50):
kids right now. As if that's the only like.
Oh, I did the physical. Factor to having a child versus
my, my gay friends that, you know, I don't have any gay
friends who have kids right now,which I think that speaks for
itself and the horizon for them even considering having kids.

(52:10):
They're like, well, maybe in five years or maybe in 10 years,
but they were saying that like 15 years ago.
And also like for gay men or forqueer couples or for people who
have any kind of challenges withfertility, you know, like to
think that you can like, postpone it.
It's like such a choice to explore parenthood.

(52:33):
And it involves a lot of resources too, right?
Like, you know, like 2 gay men can't have a kid together just
like, you know, biologically on their own and without a lot of
money. And so it is really interesting
to see. And I just kind of sit back
because I know I don't want to have kids.
I just kind of sit back and I'm like, where in between all of

(52:54):
this hot mess party life that weboth engage in truthfully, are
you planning on having a kid? And you know, my dad was in his
like mid 40s when he had me and my little sister.
And even that I think about my dad is like he's very useful,
you know, 80s man, but you know,he's older.
And I think about like some of my gay friend maybe who are who

(53:17):
don't feel the scream of a biological clock, but are kind
of kicking that down the road tothink about like, well, are you
going to be 45 when you have a kid?
Are you going to be 50 when you have a kid And like to being
like an elderly parent? Seems like that's a whole
different experience too. And I mean, I'm not talking

(53:38):
about like a woman giving birth in her 40s.
I'm talking about like a man giving having a kid in his 50s,
which also is like the norm too.And I think I feel like I had
friends in elementary school whohad like really old dads.
And that was kind of a bummer too, where you saw that like
they just couldn't live like an active lifestyle with their kids
too. And then to be, like, morbid to

(54:02):
think about, like, your kid doesn't even have that many
years that they get to spend with you, you know.
Yeah. I mean, that's assuming that
we're not all wiped clear of this Earth because of climate
change as well, too, which I think is another factor why
people don't want to have kids. And someone told me, like, yeah,
the greenest, most environmentally friendly thing

(54:22):
you can do is to not have kids. And like I'm sticking by that as
well. Yeah, yeah.
You're like claiming that and sticking with that too.
Thank you for that perspective. This is something I thought of
like my body might be sending mesome mixed signals.
I just thought like once I made a choice, then it'd be very

(54:44):
clear. But then I sometimes feel
differently in my body and it gets really confusing.
So, you know, we we all have said like, and like you said,
the brain and heart and the emotions kind of mesh together.
And, you know, we have to figureit out and sort it out.
And it's always not so clear. And then again, yeah, we have to
think about the age of our body,too.

(55:05):
So if I can offer how that's howI feel differently like when I
hold my 6 month old niece in my hands and I love her, right?
Like I said, like I feel this like physical need to hold her
and the hold her too closely to me.
And I see people witness like that closeness.
And even then they're like, Are you sure you don't want one?

(55:28):
Or I have friends who are like, oh, well, now that you've got
Annabelle, like you're going to start to want one too.
And I have none of those things whatsoever.
I'm so happy in just like the her and me event, but it's not
triggering something that's likechemical in my brain, emotional
in my heart, you know, biological in my clock.

(55:49):
Like, I don't feel any of that at all.
And that's how I know that my knowing that I don't want to
have a kid is like very confirmed in that way too.
Yeah, just confirms that. I mean, that kind of goes hand
in hand with the well, maybe oneday you'll change your mind.
You know, it's like you haven't seen it so close up.

(56:11):
And then once you have and you're still resolute and it's
like, Yep, I'm pretty much know what I want or I do know what I
want. So yeah, that can happen.
Well, thank you so much for all your thoughts and stories and
having these open, honest conversations with me.
Yeah, just, you know, your perspective.
Sometimes they're just so different from mine, and it
makes me think about things in different ways.

(56:33):
So I always love to hear from your perspective and your
thoughts on life. I just love it.
I feel the same way about you. That's why you and I schedule
phone calls that we think are going to be like 15 minutes long
and then they're like 2 hours have passed.
Yeah, it's like, I should get going now.
It's been a really long, long time.

(56:55):
But yeah, no, I really love these conversations too.
Yeah, yeah. And I just have one final
question. I've been asking this question
to everyone on the podcast, and it's purposely very broad in
general, so you can kind of justinterpret it in any way you
want. But the question is, what do
these kids need to know? And that by these kids, I mean

(57:18):
the younger generation. And honestly, it can be anything
from like pop culture to life. You know, people have been going
with the life advice route, but it really can be anything you
want to impart to the younger generation.
So I think that, and we've even talked about this too, this like
generational divides, which as if there's this like firm

(57:41):
boundary between these generations, right?
And I like, I think that we've, you and I have been taught that
like, oh, like Gen. Z is going to save us.
Gen. Z are more woke, they're more
queer, They're more like, you know, environmentally
sustainable and aware. And since like the election too,

(58:02):
to realize, I don't know that, like I don't know that they are
going to save us. And also it's unfair to expect
younger generations to save us. And so my advice would be that
like coalition and community building across generations is
what's so important. And together that like wisdom of

(58:24):
our elders that is held and their experiences are things to
learn from just as much as perhaps an inspiring blind hope
of younger generations who haven't yet lived enough to know
the why you can't do something. Both of those things are equally

(58:47):
important in terms of like community building and coalition
building. And so I think like to be really
open minded about the diversity of voices and people's
contributions, especially acrossthe demographics of age is
really important. I saw Jane Fonda speak maybe two

(59:07):
years ago and talking about environmentalism and that it's
not a race, It is, you know, it's a relay race where you're
passing this baton, someone elsepassed it on to you.
It's continual. And for things that are like
centuries spanning issues like environmentalism, like that's

(59:31):
the way we have to think about it.
Yeah. And, you know, when you were
talking, I was just also thinking about how Bernie and
AOC have partnered up and they're holding these amazing
big rallies. And, you know, she's in, he's in
his 80s and she's in her 30s. And, you know, they're working
together to talk about their platform.
So, you know, it's like these different generations, if we all

(59:52):
work together, we can make a huge impact.
And we definitely want Gen. Z to be part of that.
I totally agree. So, yeah, it's like, unfair to
put that all in them. Like the whole idea that they're
going to come in and save us. OK, well, thank you so much for
your time today. I always love talking to you.
And yeah, I really appreciate all your thoughts today.

(01:00:12):
I appreciate it talking with youtoo.
I love you so much my video. I love you too.
I hope you enjoyed the conversation with Frankie.
I really do love his perspectiveon things and this helped me
reframe how I think about the child free journey.
I look forward to more of these types of conversations with him.

(01:00:33):
Next week, I'll be talking with one of my former Co workers and
friends, Rosio. She shares how her rebellious
spirit influenced her timeline, how she hopes to grow her
family, and we both learned of anew phobia related to
childbirth. I can't wait for you to hear my
conversation with her. So yeah, I just want to add in
this little piece because I justlistened to Alex Cooper's recent

(01:00:55):
episode that she just released. Yeah, this week.
And she talks a lot about timelines and her timeline to
have kids and wanting to start afamily.
And something that really resonated with me that Alex
Cooper said on her show is that,you know, timelines can be

(01:01:16):
helpful and they can, you know, give you that sense of security
and control. But she doesn't think that we
should let them dictate our lives.
And I'm hoping with this podcastthat we can really see that we
can have a plan, we can have a future that we imagine, but
there's so many nuances and there's so many experiences in

(01:01:39):
between that happen, you know? And so it's all about like,
she's also talking about trusting your gut and looking at
the bigger picture and not beingso attached to the outcome.
And that's something that Jenna also gives that advice, you
know, not being attached to being flexible and being
adaptable and being honest and truthful with yourself can give

(01:02:02):
you a life that you deserve, a life that you value and overall,
I believe makes you happier. And just like Alex Cooper, I
don't think that's easy all the time.
And, you know, she talks about being attached to this timeline
to have a baby and have a child soon.

(01:02:26):
But then she gets real with herself and realizes that's not
in the cards for her when she thought it might happen.
So yeah, hope you continue to stick along.
We're going to talk to lots of different people about their
timelines, and I think we'll seeover time that not being so
attached to your timeline can really be a rewarding

(01:02:47):
experience. If you feel like anything
resonated with you, please reachout.
You can reach out via e-mail at this clock pod.com or DM me on
Instagram at this clock pod. For behind the scenes content
into making this podcast and formy reflections, you can

(01:03:09):
subscribe to my sub stack at this clock pod.substack.com.
I of course, you can find all this info in the show notes.
To help support this podcast, please rate, review and follow
on whatever platform you listen.I'll see you next Thursday.