April 17, 2025 • 52 mins
If you've ever been curious about using ketamine as part of your healing process this episode is for you. Carly Davis is a clinical social worker who has had some amazing experiences utilizing ketamine to help her heal from C-PTSD and other traumas. In this episode we get to dive into all the questions about what it is, how it works, when to use it or not use it, and what it can do for you. I'm amazed at how much she's been able to evolve and make progress even in those stuck phases of healing. Hoping this episode helps you find the right treatment options for you.
You can reach Carly via email at carly.davis.sw@gmail.com if you have any questions.
Recommended Links from the episode:
For ketamine treatment check out Better U:
https://www.betterucare.com/
Books:
The Body Keeps the Score by Bessel Van Der Kolk:
https://www.amazon.com/Body-Keeps-Score-Healing-Trauma/dp/0143127748/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1343604016953452&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.-HfwhfcCzO3-23Js48DRcACP_nj18JDlUrDtPV26HLo3WBqQJeo1QmHOqOqfgAhpfcp2bBa_MKsd4H3NjfbqBZMw8BizrrBUTfbwDL5mpTya7sRW3i1bVDtM84fNY_-H_4Ff6Uto0F-OiHfn-j159P1bSpGuXnr4Mmziujfzxlv7XhQR8s4fzEE7i59I-S37rmvDY7n43vV7oTLCPetCNdAVlfMNohVPoLaqY_Wh6-A.fnBF2_ZlDuZKUl5tLGPG4gr6T92RbdbhFJywbqY1z7E&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83975474870931&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=95438&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83975762833736%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=22566_13494478&keywords=%E2%80%9Cthe+body+keeps+the+score%E2%80%9D&mcid=a78d35078aa8361c901bbeb4d5e33cb2&msclkid=bef423cace98101118604bcb769a49cd&qid=1744943119&sr=8-1
The Happiness Trap by Russ Harris:
https://www.amazon.com/Happiness-Trap-Struggling-Start-Living/dp/1590305841
No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz:
https://www.amazon.com/No-Bad-Parts-Restoring-Wholeness/dp/1683646681/ref=sr_1_1?adgrpid=1334808158994292&dib=eyJ2IjoiMSJ9.bFZwBVwPt1uHdKoVtwf9Bdsfq2RA2u5ByhfjX4eJXhjJpJpSuRbRchf5etidCSI1O2-3_WRKubcfIwJRttmjyUZgjNKQk1rGgYt7cqycZJyC8u9rVx-JBLxUk2DMVKUFeroTM6eURIu2qYa43MMG3a7u6PFEtGonrTnSgw7_KoG-flBuE-8xozfcjz_U_w6PKs_DtV_MWcFNZV9QvCHHr9rDyq-tELzvwxTc-FNgqXM.jnU9Ty3FU0X6QeLEsPtNqrfB_Mb3cINiJx8mwdEc6Es&dib_tag=se&hvadid=83425869654498&hvbmt=be&hvdev=c&hvlocphy=95438&hvnetw=o&hvqmt=e&hvtargid=kwd-83426195170526%3Aloc-190&hydadcr=9158_13780337&keywords=no+bad+parts+by+richard+schwartz&mcid=546848fbffd13a71ad0359183e0ede16&qid=1744943258&sr=8-1
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I am Kristen Russell, and thisis the Holy Empowered Podcast
where we dive into all thingsholistic healing and open our
minds, hearts, and paradigms tonew ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
Kristen (00:16):
Welcome to Wholly Empowered.
I'm Kristen Russell.
And today we get to talk toCarly Davis, who is a clinical
social worker and has done a lotof work with ketamine, so we get
to hear all about it.
Carly, welcome.
Thank you.
Do you wanna tell us?
Yeah.
Do you wanna tell us a littlebit about you, your background
(00:37):
how you got here?
Carly (00:40):
Yeah, and I hope I don't blab around too much, but if I
do, then you can tell me.
'cause I'm very passionate abouttrauma treatment in general and
ketamine and all these kinds ofthings.
So just tell me if I'm going ontoo long, but, so basically
before in, in the year 2018.
I was having my own like PTSDsymptoms and trauma from a bad
(01:04):
relationship and some otherthings.
And I was meeting a lot of otherwomen that were in the same
position.
And a lot of them had nevergotten therapy before being in
that group or still hadn'tgotten therapy and they had no
idea how to deal with theirsymptoms.
It was taking over their lives,like bad depression, anxiety.
lots of times we think aboutlike dreams and things like, or
(01:26):
nightmares and things like that.
But you know, those other thingslike preoccupation with the
trauma and like your nervoussystem being on edge all the
time trying to protect you.
So having anxiety and depressioncan be bigger symptoms that
people experience with trauma aswell.
So I met a lot of people thatwere experiencing that and just
struggling with getting relief.
(01:47):
Some that were even seeingtherapists and struggling.
So I decided to get my master'sin social work so I could become
a therapist and understand morehow to help myself and how to
help these other people that Iwas meeting.
Yeah, and I just kind of becameobsessed with that still
obsessed with it and just kindof learn as much as I could.
(02:07):
So I just to kind of give alittle bit of background of like
my experience with treatingtrauma and things like that, so
you know, that I sort of knowwhat I'm talking about.
So I did my internship, my firstyear internship.
They're both eight months.
I did with severely mentally illand inpatient.
And then I worked at a domesticviolence shelter my second year
with women with trauma, or maleswith trauma as well.
(02:31):
But I worked mostly with women.
And we did like communityoutreach as well.
And I learned, you know, thebasics of how to treat trauma,
trauma-informed care, differentinterventions that I can talk
about later.
Yeah, just a general training intrauma and did a lot of like
internal family systems learneda lot of ACT was getting my own
(02:53):
therapy and doing these samethings, CBT EMDR, some of the
very like basic like supercommon trauma treatments, like
kind of the best that we had atthe time and was getting
progress, but getting slowprogress myself and seeing slow
progress with others.
(03:13):
And so, that's kind of why I wasinterested in talking with you
about ketamine as well.
'cause I've just seen a lot ofdifference with people and
currently right now I'm taking abreak and been doing a lot of
ketamine treatments myself andgetting a lot of benefits.
So just really excited to talkabout it.
Kristen (03:30):
So cool.
Yeah.
Let's dive in to just like,basics of ketamine.
What is it, how does it work inyour brain?
I know it's kind of a, I didn'trealize it was kind of
controversial a little bit.
Like, it's kind of a it's kindof an unknown, I feel like, for
a lot of people where it seemslike it might be a psychedelic
(03:50):
or it's, but it's like aprescribed drug and it's kind of
this mystery in a lot of ways.
So just wanna unpack that alittle bit.
Carly (04:01):
Yeah.
And there's a lot to unpack withit.
So, I mean, I would say one ofthe barriers that make it so
people aren't able to access it,one of the biggest things if
people even want to access it isprice.
And so I feel like a lot ofpeople don't know.
A lot about it because it's noteven within their price range
and it's not done.
(04:23):
It's getting a lot more common.
There's a lot of like ketamineclinics that are popping up.
But as far as like, you know,the controversial, other
controversial aspects that makesit so people don't know as much
about it.
Along with price, there'sdefinitely like a lot of stigma,
I would say, and fear.
So I'll kind of describe likewhat ketamine is and what it
(04:45):
does and like, why thereshouldn't be as much fear.
So it's a, it's an anestheticoriginally used as anesthetic
and then they were doing somestudies and found that it was
helpful with people withdepression.
And so they started using it fordepression.
But the studies were coming outslow, like the, you know, just
(05:08):
'cause there is a lot of like.
Research that needs to be donebefore they use it with people.
And so I think it was in earlytwo thousands when they started
doing more of the studies.
And basically what it does isit's a, I looked this up before
because I didn't know thespecific science of it, but it's
an NMDR receptor agonist.
(05:28):
So what it does is it blocksglutamate from being taken into
the neurons.
So instead of being taken in,it's being able to be used
between the connections betweenthe neurons.
And so what that does is thatgives a greater connection to
other, like new learning andlike flexibility and being able
(05:52):
to see past the traumaticmemories and experiences and
things like that.
And that's one of the biggestthings with trauma is you have
these traumatic experiences andyour fight flight or freeze or
fawn area in your brain, theamygdala.
Holds these memories of thesetraumatic experiences and wants
to stick to those memoriesbecause survival is key for us.
(06:13):
So the most important thing inour, you know, for our brain is
survival.
Like we gotta stay alive.
And so normally in a situationwhere like you'd see a bear or
something like that, like itwould store that memory and you
would have those physiologicalexperiences and it would say,
okay, anything that is big andhairy and has these sharp white
teeth, like we need to stay awayfrom that.
(06:34):
Anything that looks like that.
So sometimes kids are scared ofdogs or even, you know, small
animals because that's thenatural instinct.
What happens with trauma is thatyou can be in a dangerous
situation, but then you, evenwhen you get out of the
dangerous situation, your brainstill stored those memories and
saying, okay.
Anything that looks like this,like, you know, you know,
(06:56):
whether it's like, okay, mytrauma was with a male, or it
was with a female.
Anyone that's male, or anyonethat's female is a danger, or
anyone that tries to get closeto me or anyone that, just
anything that's associated withit all.
And so it becomes supercrippling and people have a hard
time having relationships.
They have a hard time evenunderstanding what's happening
(07:17):
and not feeling like they'reconstantly in danger, even when
they're out of the dangeroussituation.
And so it very, it limits theirwellbeing a lot.
And so what it does, theglutamate in the brain, having
that extra glutamate betweenconnections then takes.
Your brain's ability to kind ofstretch out from the traumatic
memories and go to new learningand new experiences and making
(07:41):
new memories.
So, okay, maybe this male wasdangerous to me, but not all
males are, or things like thatwhere it starts to get more
flexible so you can start tohave relationships with others
and start to make sense ofthings and live a more whole
life and not be crippled withthose you know, anxiety and
depression and triggers all thetime.
(08:02):
So I hope I answered everythingyou said and not more than what
you asked.
Kristen (08:09):
Totally fine if you did.
I kind of threw a lot of thingsat you all at once.
So Okay, so we're in Utah and ifyou want to get a prescription
in, because it's, is it, it'sstate to state, is that
Carly (08:23):
right or So?
I am not as familiar with that.
I did see it's state to state,but it is approved by the FDA to
treat treatment resistantdepression and pain.
So it's legal.
So, I don't know, it's likestate by state.
There may be some differentregulations on like how you need
(08:44):
to get prescribed or things likethat, but it is approved by the
FDA, so you should be able to,you know, get it wherever you're
at.
And I know that if there'slimited, like clinics, if you
want to go to a clinic, like theactual clinics that are around
they're more rare.
They're becoming more popular,but it's not, you know, you're
not gonna get one in every city.
(09:04):
And so if you can come, go todifferent states and get treated
if you need to.
But the reason why I'm soexcited to talk about it now,
and I am not like, you know,paid advertiser, I don't get any
benefits.
I'm not associated with any ofthese companies or anything.
But you can now do it online.
You can go and meet with apsychiatrist online.
(09:28):
With a couple of differentcompanies, and you need to be
really careful which companiesyou use because they can, you
know, use other substances andnot get like a pure or safe
product.
So I have a couple of websitesthat I know that are safe and
one that I've used myself thatis like the most affordable that
I've found.
So you can meet withpsychiatrists online or you can
meet with a psychiatrist inperson or your doctor and they
(09:50):
can prescribe you either aspray, which is considered the
least effective because youspray it and then you get the
highest effects when you get thespray.
And then it kind of, you know,obviously it goes down as the,
leaves your system pretty quick.
And then there's the IV that youcan go and do in a ketamine
clinic and sometimes they have atherapist's office.
(10:11):
Therapists will be trained toadminister the ketamine.
So you can do that in an officeand you can have the therapist
present or you can have amedical professional present and
you can have someone guiding youthrough it.
If you do it online, you canalso have a guide.
And now they have the pills.
So the pills is what you wouldget if you went online and you
can meet with a psychiatrist.
(10:32):
They have a visit that isincluded in the price, so you
can meet with psychiatristsonline and get it delivered to
your house.
Or if you feel uncomfortabledoing it from home, like a lot
of people.
I think I would've feltuncomfortable starting that way.
You can go and do even just oneif you wanna try it in a
ketamine clinic, and they willhave, they can have a
(10:53):
psychiatrist or medicalprofessional there to like guide
you through it if you're reallynervous about it.
And then with the online aswell, they have someone that can
sit with you while you're doingyour session from home.
So they'll sit with youvirtually and yeah.
Kristen (11:09):
Okay.
When you go to a clinic, is italways an IV or do they do
different forms?
Carly (11:14):
So, at the clinic, I know they, they do iv, they do the
spray.
You can do the spray there andhave someone sit with you.
And I think that some of them dothe pills there as well, but
it's still gonna be moreexpensive than if you get the
pills online.
Kristen (11:32):
Is ketamine like a guided experience?
Like do you need someone toguide you through or would you,
do you need to guide yourself ordo you just kind of let the
ketamine do its thing?
Or how does that
Carly (11:41):
work?
I honestly think that depends onthe person and kind of where
you're at with your healing andkind of your experiences.
I would say if you haven't beento therapy and you haven't
developed some coping skills, Iwould not do it without having a
(12:04):
guide.
And even that being said, Iwould not go into it without
getting therapy and thingsfirst, because you need to be
able to ground yourself andbecause it is dissociative, so
you do, it's like an out-of-bodyexperience, so you're not.
You can get to a point whereyou're not aware of where you're
at and you're just, you know,seeing images or having thoughts
(12:28):
that are related to, you know,your trauma or, you know, heavy
things that you're trying towork through.
And so you wanna be able to havesome grounding tools or someone
there to help ground you,because if you're not able to
ground yourself, then that'swhen it gets to be an unhelpful
experience.
So you, but you definitely don'thave to have someone there.
I don't have, I've never hadanyone there, but I've gotten a
(12:50):
lot of therapy beforehand and Ihave a lot of coping tools and
things like that, so I neverhave anyone.
But I definitely write down myexperiences afterwards, use my
coping skills during it, andthen I meet with a therapist
later and process, you know,what I've seen and gotten from
it.
And it, it helps if you do itwithin the next couple days
(13:12):
after the session when theglutamate is still like really
high concentration in yourbrain.
It sticks more.
Kristen (13:19):
Okay.
So definitely a supplemental orlike a, something you do with
therapy.
Carly (13:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen (13:26):
And it's kind of a psychedelic, right?
Like you said, it's kind of anout of body experience.
I know sometimes people getnervous about it for that
reason.
They kind of associate it and itseems scary.
And so,
Carly (13:38):
yeah.
And I was definitely scaredabout that before I started it.
The difference I would say,'cause I know people that have
done, they now are doing studieswith mushrooms that has a
similar effect.
It's a different like, mechanismin your brain, but it's a
similar effect.
But mushroom seems to be alittle bit more of the, you
know, kind of like funkyimagery, but it's still tied to.
(14:03):
What you need to, it's stilltied to logical things that
you're processing.
It kind of shows you what you'regoing through, through imagery.
And ketamine is similar.
Like you'll see images of, youknow, that kind of describe new
thought processes or ways to seethings, your trauma and
experiences in a different wayor people in a different way.
But it's very like gentle andit's not like you're not seeing
(14:27):
weird stuff that doesn't makesense.
Like you're not seeing like, youknow, that weird, like Winnie
the Pooh nightmare, heffalumpthing kind of stuff.
Like, it's not random at all.
It's very like, oftentimes it'sreally beautiful imagery and
it's stuff that makes sense.
It's logical.
It's stuff that you've alreadyseen before, not like creepy,
(14:49):
weird stuff that, you know, isjust disturbing.
It doesn't make sense.
You're having, you're processingthings while you're in the
ketamine and then your braincontinues to be able to process
things better after theketamine.
Kristen (15:02):
Do you feel like you need to be in a good, kind of a
good head space when you startthe ketamine?
Like could you have a badexperience potentially, or,
Carly (15:11):
yes you can.
And I can't say this like worksfor everyone because I'm not
everyone, but the only timesthat I've had bad experiences
was when I had a headache or amigraine.
I have never come back fromhaving a headache before I start
the treatment or a migraine andbeen able to get through it
(15:34):
while I'm in the ketamine andhave like mostly positive
experience so that it kind ofjust confusing.
Like you can't think straightand so you don't, it can feel
more random.
So I never do it if I have anykind of a headache.
And I'll take medication like,you know, four hours before just
to make sure that I don't have aheadache.
And you can take ibuprofen, likeI'll take Excedrin Migraine,
(15:55):
things like that, so you cantake that stuff.
But it's supposed to be like afew hours before.
Then the other thing is having atoo high of a dose and because
it's still new, I found that,you know, a lot and a lot of the
clinics that are, you know,providing like the IV ketamine
(16:17):
treatments and things like that,they're not, the people that are
giving you the dose are notmental professionals, mental
health professionals, and eventhe psychiatrists maybe don't
have specific training andtrauma, and so they want to keep
upping your dose.
But really with any kind oftrauma healing, they say slower
(16:39):
is faster.
So you don't wanna put yournervous system in too high of a
panic because then you're justretraumatizing yourself.
You're putting your brain backin a situation that felt scary,
but you don't it's, it's soheightened that you can't ground
yourself.
You can't, you just feel likeyou're back in that situation.
And I've had that with higherdoses.
(16:59):
So I've had them push for higherdoses, even like five units
more, and I'll have a badexperience and then I went right
back down and have a greatexperience.
So I stay I'm pretty low.
I'm at 60 units and I havestayed at that dose for the
three years that I've been doingit.
And I get amazing results everytime.
So start slow.
(17:21):
It's better safe than sorry,like you wanna heal from this
stuff, but you will get amazinghealing in one session and you
can get negative effects if yougo, you know, too high.
So start low if you have anyquestion, like just stay low
because I think a lot of people,and a lot of people I've known
who I know could really benefitfrom ketamine that haven't
(17:42):
gotten a lot of help from other,treatments for trauma that have
some pretty severe trauma.
They just stopped doing itbecause they kept getting pushed
to go higher and it was a badexperience.
Whereas, you know.
Which I had consistently at ahigher dose.
If I stay lower, I have a greatexperience every single time,
except for if I have a headache.
Kristen (18:04):
Wanna talk about the, I know it's kind of a spiritual, I
feel like anything in that realmis, it's sort of a spiritual
enhancer or like, it opensthings up and I feel like that
can be good or bad.
It depends.
But I wanted to know if you'dhad any cool experiences where
you, like your higher power orlike ancestors or something came
(18:29):
and helped you or you know, justthoughts on that.
Just that whole part of it.
Carly (18:35):
Yeah, 100%.
So I, I'm religious, I'mChristian, so that has a filter
on, you know, my experienceswith it.
But I think that's one of thereasons why it can be
controversial for people thatare religious is maybe they
think that like, okay I'mturning to this like psychedelic
(18:58):
drug rather than like, God inprayer or like scripture
reading.
Like people think, you know, youknow, those are kind of the more
go-to things that, you know,Christians will do and, but.
Because it's, it also has a verystrong physiological effect on
your brain.
Like it's going to give youbenefits, whether you're
(19:20):
spiritual or not.
That's just kind of an addedbenefit if you are.
And so like, it is a realphysiological, scientific thing
that's happening in your brain.
So it's not, you know, justsome, I don't know, like hippie
dippy kind of alternative otherthan God or religion or
something like that.
Like it really has it's like anyother drug.
(19:41):
It's like a medication for, youknow, diabetes or something like
that.
Like it is physiologically doingsomething powerful that's
helping you heal.
So with that aspect, like, youknow, even if you're not
spiritual it's extremelybeneficial.
And if you are spiritual, andsometimes people who aren't,
like, I would say from what I'veread, most people, including
(20:05):
myself, have had very spiritualexperiences where I think it's.
Because you have thatphysiological effect.
You know, in my opinion, He'sable to speak to you in new ways
that maybe when you're anxiousor depressed or feeling
traumatized, that you can't feelor you can't see.
And he is kind of, you know,that physiological aspect is
(20:27):
kind of taking away thosebarriers and that inhibition
there and you're able to feelyour trauma and you're able to
feel the pain and, you know,experiencing it, but it's not
overwhelming.
You don't feel the physical painvery much because it's an
anesthetic and then you're ableto think about it in a more
clear way, so it's notoverwhelming.
And in that experience, I mean,I've had some of the most.
(20:54):
Enlightening and personalspiritual experiences that I
have ever had besides one otherexperience.
Outside of ketamine.
And I, you'll hear this a lot,people will see, and I've seen
ancestors, people that havepassed on.
This is really cool, but likespecifically related to like
trying to understandgenerational trauma, so where
(21:15):
like my trauma comes from, Ihave seen ancestors and I've
been able to understand more ofwhere they're coming from and
kind of where they're at now.
I've been able to forgiveeasier, a lot easier.
I remember when I first did myfirst session of ketamine, I was
really struggling.
I'd been stuck in this frozen,you know, anger, sadness place
(21:40):
for about a year and a half.
I'd made a lot of progressbefore that, but something
happened where, you know, I justfelt like gaslit confused about
like.
If I could trust my own feelingsand experiences, that's a very
common trauma symptom.
And so I just could not logic itout no matter, you know, what
E-M-D-R-I did and talk therapy,what, whatever intervention I
(22:01):
did, like I did the top thingsand it was not working and I
could not get out of it.
And I was waking up for monthscrying almost every single
morning.
As soon as I woke up, I'd beendreaming about it, you know,
vivid dreams.
I would feel the anger and thesadness in my dreams is super
strong and I could not sortthrough it.
And I did one ketamine session,my first ketamine session, and I
(22:25):
am not, you know, saying this toadvertise anything, but I, after
that experience, during theexperience, I saw insights into
the people that were involved inthat and able to see things in a
new way.
I could not, before that madelogical sense.
It made spiritual sense like.
It wasn't something I had tojust convince myself was true
because someone else wastelling.
(22:46):
It made total sense to me, evenafter I was out of the ketamine
experience.
And I never woke up again cryingagain.
And I stopped ruminating aboutit and I could see things in a
more nuanced way that washealthy.
And so a lot of people havethose kind of experiences and
will feel, you know, self-love,you know, it's very like,
(23:07):
gentle.
It's very it's at the right paceand the right flow.
Sometimes, you know, eventherapists can push you a little
too far or you push yourself toofar.
Like, it's very gentle.
It's very powerful.
Spiritually.
Physically.
And I was actually reading theother day that they have a lot
of the same experiences thatpeople have on ketamine.
Similar to the documentedexperiences that people have had
(23:31):
with near death experiences, andI have definitely found that to
be the case, just very profound,like taking you back to the
basics and you know, I could betotally super triggered, not
able to get out of it, crying,depressed, do a ketamine
session, and I feel immediatelybetter.
And that level stays there atlike a, even if it comes down
(23:53):
some, I stay at like a mediocrelevel and I be able to see
things clearer and processthings clearer.
So it has immediate effect wherea lot of the other stuff
doesn't, it's very slow.
Even EMDR, which is like kind ofthe next best thing that we have
to treat trauma.
Kristen (24:07):
That's so cool.
Yeah.
When you talk about it, Ialways, it reminds me a lot of
like my experiences with energywork and so it just feels like
you're, feels like you'recheating.
Like it's like you just likejumped ahead and everything's
just clear and it all makessense and it's like better.
And yeah, it just sounds likevery similar results.
(24:30):
Yeah.
Carly (24:30):
It feels like magic.
And I think that's why peopleare hesitant.
I'm a very logical person andI'm a very I'm very picky about
what therapists I see, you know,they have to be trained in
trauma, like not just e mdr rthey have, I'm very picky and I
wanna know why the things workand you know, I know why this
works.
And then on top of it, I amhaving these, like, you know,
(24:54):
that physiological experienceand then I'm having the
spiritual experience that justlike escalates it to a whole new
level where, you know, we havethe best of trauma treatments.
And like I was saying, you haveEMDR was like the best.
Then we had like talk therapy,narrative therapy, you know, all
those other things I was talkingabout.
And then I wanna say ketamine'slike up here and you still need
(25:17):
like talk therapy.
You still need to processthings.
Like you still, those otherthings are still valuable, other
aspects that touch differentthings and kind of solidify the
ketamine as well.
But I think people, it's likeone of those things where it's
it seems like it's too good tobe true because we've been so
slow in discovering ways thatcan really help people with
(25:37):
trauma.
Like people have suffered withPTSD.
You know, you think aboutveterans, but other people as
well that maybe you don't thinkabout as much.
Like people in abusivesituations that turn to
addictions, like, you know, orjust trust issues and just
things that last like a wholelifetime.
And they can do so manydifferent things and it can get
better, but it's still soconsuming.
(26:00):
And you know, I've experiencedthat myself and this ketamine is
like if I'm stuck, especially ifI'm stuck or blocked.
Ketamine is the only likepsychological.
Treatment that I found that can,that gets me unstuck every time.
Even if it's just a little bit,it moves me forward and then it
moves me forward the next time.
And, you know, it's amazing.
Kristen (26:22):
That's so encouraging to feel like there's, especially
when you feel stuck like thatand it's just like, nothing's
working to know that there'ssomething you can do.
And I feel like there's so manyoptions actually.
Like the more I learn, the moremodalities I learn about.
I'm like, oh, there's ketamine,there's like energy work,
there's just a lot of thingsthat can get you unstuck, but
it's, that's just really cool tohear about just your experiences
(26:45):
and especially'cause you'veworked with a lot of clients
too.
Carly (26:50):
So when I was working with women with trauma, I wasn't
trained in like, you know.
Injecting the Ketamine and doingthat.
So I'm not trained in that.
I'm trained in EMDR.
So my clients that I work with,were not doing ketamine, but
I've read a lot of research onit of the benefits that people
are having.
(27:10):
And then I've known other peoplethat've had the same benefits
and they're, a lot of the peopleare, it's like they're just as
excited as I am and they're justas like, mind blown as I am.
And then there's like, you know,those other groups of people
where it's like they had a badexperience.
And I can't say like, yes, it'sfor everyone because I don't, I
(27:31):
can't know that.
But I have seen in myself, likeI said, the higher dose and the
headaches, if you can take careof those things, you can have a
bad experience with those forsure.
I've had those similarexperiences that people that I
know that are like, oh, itwasn't for me.
Like I had a bad experience.
Like it was just too much.
(27:52):
Either they haven't gottentherapy, they don't have
grounding, or it was too high ofa dose.
But if you get those things incheck for me, and for a lot of
other people it's good, but it'snot necessarily for everyone.
Like there's, that's why there'sso many modalities, you know,
and so many new things and evenjust spiritual things that can
be really powerful on top ofthat.
But the other thing that I wouldsay too is, you know, you're
(28:16):
meeting with a psychologist,they're gonna help you know if
it's for you or not, and they'revery careful.
So another thing that they willnot prescribe you ketamine for,
you're not eligible, just sothat you know, so you know, it's
not disappointing, is if youhave any kind of psychosis.
So if you have like.
(28:38):
Bipolar.
And you know, if you get manicand you have psychosis during
that time, like you can't takeit because it can make things
worse because it, you know,you're having this like,
out-of-body experience you'renot able to ground yourself as
well.
It can be scary, it can be, youknow, cause more psychosis.
And so if you have anything likethat, you know, schizophrenia
(28:58):
psycho affective disorder youknow, like I said, you know,
bipolar or depression withpsychosis, anything like that,
they, it can make things worse.
But that's, as far as I know,like, you know, mental health
wise, those are the only thingsthat block it.
And then there are some physicalthings that they wanna know, and
I don't know all the details,but when you see the
(29:19):
psychiatrist, they're verythorough.
So they go through anything.
But the main blocks that I'veseen is anything like that.
So that is frustrating for thosepeople, but that's why there's
other modalities as well.
So
Kristen (29:31):
is that if you have that diagnosis at all.
Or is it just, if you're goingthrough a like manic period, you
wouldn't do it during that time?
Carly (29:39):
I believe it's if you have it at all, because it can
induce it even if you're notgoing through it at the time.
Kristen (29:45):
Okay.
I'm curious, I don't know ifyou'll know the answer to this,
but if you have like a familyhistory, like anybody in your
family who's had psychosis, isit something you might wanna
avoid or could it like bring itup in you?
Carly (29:57):
So, I mean, I don't know specifically.
I know that when I've gottenscreened for it, they've never
asked me about a family history.
They asked me if I had thatdiagnosis.
So I wanna say that you'd beokay.
And it might have to do morewith like your age, because lots
of times those disorders comeout in like early twenties and
(30:20):
things like that.
So it might have to do with age,but the psychiatrist would be
the one that would know.
I don't know like specificdetails about that.
Okay.
Kristen (30:27):
Yeah.
Ask your psychiatrist.
And then so as far as symptomsthat it treats, I know it's
really good, so anything withtrauma, right?
Carly (30:38):
So yeah, for me and for a lot of other people that's been
like reported benefits, butcurrently the FDA approves it
for treatment resistantdepression and chronic pain, but
they will prescribe youoff-label for trauma or anxiety
and people are seeing a lot ofeffects with that.
Outside of that, I'm not surewhat else, but I know that
(30:59):
people see a lot of benefitswith anxiety and trauma as well.
Kristen (31:03):
Okay.
So that's kind of when to takeit or when to look into it if
you're having those specificthings.
Is there anything else youwanted to discuss about this?
Like anything you want people toknow about taking ketamine or
the experience or things to justbe aware of?
Carly (31:23):
Yeah.
I mean one thing I would add islike, that I didn't mention is
like those other things I wastalking about, those other
interventions help and they canhave a similar effect, but
they're a lot slower.
So people see results a lotquicker and a lot deeper as
well.
So, I mean, that's huge whenyou're like having, you know,
(31:48):
trauma symptoms, PTSD, CPTSD,stuff like that.
Kristen (31:54):
Yeah.
Okay.
It just kind of speeds thingsup.
Yeah.
I would say
Carly (32:01):
one other factor that I think people are like hesitant
to try it sometimes in likereligious spaces is the fact
that it does have a reputationbecause people have used it
illegally as a street drugrecreational drug, but that's
not its original use.
People have just, you know,people can misuse pain
(32:22):
medications that can do similarthings.
So, you know, it is legal, it islike, you know, tested and.
My personal opinion, things, youknow, even like, like I was
saying, diabetes medication orcancer treatments, like, a lot
of those things are veryaccepted.
And I think those things arealso inspired to help people
(32:44):
like improve their quality oflife.
And I, my opinion is ketamine isthe same way.
And so using it in a way it'smuch smaller doses than people
would use it as a street drug.
So, you know, there is theaddiction side too that people
are scared of.
And if, you know, really we haveresearch people who use it
recreationally daily and they'reusing it in high doses, can get
(33:06):
addicted.
So they can have withdrawalswhen they're not using it.
But with treatment, withketamine, with psychiatrist in
proper way, you're never usingit daily.
In the beginning they will haveyou do, usually it's like six
doses.
Six sessions within a three tosix week period.
So it's like two a week or one aweek.
I did one a week and I saw like,you know, great benefits because
(33:29):
I could process things, thesession longer and things like
that.
So it just kind of depends onwhat you want.
But then after that, it's likeonce a month maintenance.
And I've never had any kind oflike, you know, dependence or
withdrawals with that frequencybecause it's still bringing up
things that are difficult toprocess.
And, you know, most of the timein the ketamine I'm having like
(33:50):
a positive, like really, youknow, powerful almost elated
experience throughout there.
But it, it does come up with,you know, I will have little
times where I'll cry or when itbrings up hard things.
Like it can be painful, but itmoves on pretty quick.
And so with that frequency,you're not, you know, there,
there's no.
(34:11):
Research that shows any, likeaddiction or dependence in that
way.
But if you used it in the wrongway, like there definitely is,
but that you're not gonna beusing that when you have a
provider that's like prescribingit to you in the right way and
you know, you're using it thatway.
And then, on top of that, like,like I was saying, it is like
any other drug that isprescribed, like it's, it may be
(34:33):
used in unhealthy ways, butthat's not the way that you'd be
using it.
Kristen (34:39):
Don't buy it on the street and you'll be
Carly (34:41):
Yeah.
Be okay.
Kristen (34:44):
Yeah.
Do you do you feel like itcontinues to be very effective
as you view, like it doesn't thedose, I don't know.
So I know some things kind oflose their effectiveness as the
more you use them.
Some drugs,
Carly (35:00):
yeah.
So they do say that like yourbody does get used to it, but
once you get in the maintenancephase.
Like you're doing it the once amonth.
I've never seen a decrease inthe benefits that I get every
session.
So I think if you're using itmore than that, you could, and
maybe some people do, and itdepends on the person, like, and
(35:21):
if that's the case, if you'restarting low, it's no problem to
up it a little bit.
Like if you're like, oh, I'm notgetting very much.
You can up it a little bit andyou work with a psychiatrist and
they, you know, especially withthe company that I am, I used to
do at IV and it was veryexpensive.
It was$300 a session.
So like, not affordable and mostinsurance companies will not pay
(35:43):
for it.
It's worth it to check and seeif yours does, but most will not
pay for it.
And if it does, then it's about60 a session.
And when I'm using the ketamine,I mean, I'm paying like that
amount, the pills, I'm payingabout that amount or less from
home.
So.
I forgot what you asked me.
Kristen (36:04):
Just if it loses effectiveness as you
Carly (36:06):
keep using it.
Kristen (36:07):
Yeah.
Carly (36:08):
So, you know, I haven't seen any like loss in
effectiveness and even if youhave to bump it up a little bit,
then that's totally doable.
Kristen (36:16):
Yeah.
Is the IV like way more intensethan the, like the dosage is
still the same, right?
Yes.
But does the
Carly (36:24):
form affect it?
They will, they'll try toprescribe you a pill that's
equal to the dose that you weregetting with iv.
And it's a little bit differentbecause with the iv it's
continuous.
So with the pill it mightprescribe you a little more
because you'll get, so you'llget that bump and then it kind
of like wanes off.
But the dose that I'm at that isI'm having the equal experience
(36:48):
that I do with the iv.
I'm actually having longer timewith the ketamine, you know,
with that like extra glutamatein my brain.
I'm having longer experiencesand for me, I like it.
Better doing it from homebecause I'm not interrupted by,
okay, hey, like your session'sover.
Like, you know, we gotta get yououtta the chair and you gotta
(37:09):
get home.
'cause the more time you have tojust process afterwards and just
sit with it, the better it'llstick and the more you'll get
from it, the more you'llremember.
So I like it better for thatreason.
And I don't have, I have a morepowerful experience as long as
I'm getting enough ketamine tohave that similar, you know,
(37:31):
dosing that I have with iv, Idon't lose anything.
Kristen (37:34):
So can you take us through what that looks like?
So you take the dose and then itsounds like it gets intense and
then you kind of slowly come outof it.
Like how long does that take?
And then you're kind of stillprocessing, you said it was in
your, it's kind of the glutenglutamines still doing its thing
for like a couple days.
Is that right?
Carly (37:51):
Yeah.
So.
I'll kind of describe theprocess.
So it like, takes away some ofthe like, unknown and fears.
So you take a nausea like Zofranprobably like 20 to 30 minutes
before you take the ketamine andyou know, I'll just lay down in
my bed.
You can sit if you want to.
But I, the dose that I take isgets me like, you know, where I
(38:15):
am, like completely dissociatedfrom like, everything
surrounding me within like 20,30 minutes.
But when you start, they willstart you very slow, which is a
good thing because you want tobe able to ground yourself.
And when they start you at thatdose, like sometimes you won't
even be dissociated as in like,you know, when at the higher
(38:35):
doses you'll get so sleepy thatyou'll close your eyes and it's
almost like you're having adream.
So I.
Start slow.
And then as you build yourconfidence with it, you can get
to that point.
And if I'm taking my prescribedregular dose that I would have
with the iv, I am out, like Isaid, within like 30 minutes,
I'm starting to just like losetrack of what's around me.
(38:58):
And then I close my eyes and Iam, I'm out for about, I set an
alarm.
I have people in the house withme that will come and check on
me as well, but I set an alarm.
I'm out for about an hour, andthen I, you know, I'm I can, I'm
aware, but I can kind of closemy eyes again and I'll go back
(39:19):
and keep getting like amazingbenefits.
I'm a little more aware, but I'mstill getting those benefits.
And then after another, like 45minutes I'm aware where I know
where I'm at, like I can.
You know that there's like avisual distortion where you kind
of see tunnel vision when you'rein ketamine, like that kind of
starts to die down and I'm awareof the sounds around me and
(39:39):
things like that.
So, but then after that I cansit there and process for
another hour plus and still begetting new info and remembering
the things that I saw where I'm,and then capable to write them
down and just continuingprocessing and like remembering
it and recording it.
Kristen (39:59):
Cool.
And then do you kind of continuefor, is it, I don't know, for a
longer period of time, do thingskeep kind of coming to you or is
it just sort of in thattimeframe
Carly (40:09):
Yeah.
That you talked about.
So you will like.
You will have a higherconcentration for like, for the
next couple of days.
So it's very powerful and inthose next couple days is when
you get the most out of it.
If you can keep, you know,reminding yourself what you
learn and keep thinking about itand processing it, it sticks
longer.
If you can do it within thefirst couple days, it has like
(40:30):
really significant effects thatway.
Like you wanna keep thinkingabout it and processing it with
a therapist or if you can't,like on your own reviewing like
your notes and things like that.
But it also has a longer termbenefit through that next week.
And then once you do themaintenance, you get those first
six sessions they want to get inyour system, get it going.
Then once you get to themaintenance stages, it continues
(40:53):
to have benefits throughout,like, you know, throughout that
month, after you get those firstmaintenance sessions in.
So like you continue to be ableto think clearer and have more
glutamate in your brain afterthose maintenance, after those
first initial sessions and thenduring the maintenance.
Kristen (41:11):
Do you feel like there's kind of a long-term
effect of just you feel moreself-aware and things are just
clearer?
Like over time you notice like,oh, I just, I'm just very
self-aware now.
Something.
Carly (41:25):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, you still have to workat it and choose to think about
and process of things, but evenwithout me choosing to do it,
I'll notice that, you know, Ihave these triggers where maybe
I see a certain type of thingand every time my nervous system
has gotten reactive andtriggered and I, you know, feel
(41:46):
unsafe, but now like, you know,I'll just glance at something
and my mind will think a totallynew thought.
Like, oh, well, you know, thatperson might have this going on.
And I feel like a little bit ofempathy for them, or like for
myself.
Whereas in situations where Icould never have done that
before.
So it does happen naturally.
(42:07):
And also the more you processthings, the more you get and the
more it sticks.
But it definitely startshappening naturally and like
undoing some big triggers thatyou, for me, like I haven't been
able to get progress onotherwise.
And a lot of the people say thesame thing.
Kristen (42:25):
Yeah.
Just kind of heals your brain,huh?
Wow, that's awesome.
All right, is there anythingelse you wanted to say before we
wrap up?
Carly (42:32):
Yeah.
So like I said, like I'm notgetting paid for any advertising
or anything, but I did wannamention because I was doing the
IV only and I had to stop'causeI couldn't afford it.
So like, you know, if you'redoing the IV and you don't have
insurance,$300 a month, that's alot.
(42:52):
Most people can't afford it.
And so I had to stop and I hadoriginally looked at a company
called Mind Bloom.
Where there were about, I thinkthere were about a thousand for
I think it was eight sessionsand I couldn't afford, or like
1200 and I couldn't afford that.
So I stopped looking at theonline, but then when I was
(43:13):
getting a lot of benefit and Iwas like, Hey, I need to work on
my own, like, you know, traumafor a while, I looked up more
ketamine companies online to seeif I could get something more
affordable.
And I found a company calledBetter You, and that's the one
I've been using.
And they are so thorough.
They're extremely supportive.
(43:33):
They send me texts even when Idon't reach out to them, like
checking in on me how I'm doing.
They have a, you know, like apsychiatrist, like I said, that
you can meet with that willprescribe you.
And then they have, you know,you can keep meeting with them,
you can have a buddy with youonline as you're doing the
session.
And then they also have a groupwhere you can go and talk about
your experience, which helpsintegrate it.
(43:55):
Which is really helpful if youcan't afford a therapy'cause
therapy's really expensive.
And so with that company, lemmego to word the pricing.
So if you go to better youcare.com, you can find the
pricing.
But it is, I can't find in mynotes, but I know it's I got a
(44:17):
Black Friday deal, so if it'sBlack Friday, like that's an
ideal time to go.
I got four sessions for, sorry,eight sessions for$500, but
normally it's four sessions forabout$500 and then eight
sessions for about 900.
(44:40):
So, but I've been able tostretch them and if you're
starting out with a low dose,like I'm using a high dose much
higher than someone's juststarting with ketamine from
home, they're gonna prescribeyou a lot lower.
So, I've been able to stretch itlike one and a half, almost two
times as much as they even toldme.
So I'm paying anywhere betweenlike 45 to like$60 a session.
(45:03):
So that's just something wherethat makes it a lot more
accessible for people.
And you know, when you're goingthrough mental health stuff lots
of times like, you know, you'renot functioning super well,
you're maybe not making as muchmoney as you want.
So I just want people to beaware of that website.
And like I said, I'm not likepaid to advertise it at all.
Kristen (45:25):
Yeah.
But, and one initial investmentand then you have it for a
while.
I'm guessing it lasts for sometime.
Carly (45:33):
Yeah, I mean I had the eight sessions worth and I've
been using it since November.
And like I said, I take higherdoses and sometimes I do it more
frequently than, you know, oncea month.
And I'll process it with mytherapist, like make sure that
they're aware and things likethat.
(45:54):
And I don't do it more than, youknow, once every two weeks, but
you know, I have more time on myhands right now and I wouldn't
recommend doing that likewithout talking to psychiatrist.
Like, you know, you need to bevery careful with it.
But you can spread it quite abit'cause I'm doing it, you
know, a little more frequentlyand at a higher dose than
starting.
(46:15):
And I am still going and I stillhave more.
So yeah it's ex extremelyaffordable, even more affordable
than just talk therapy, which iscrazy because it normally like
the$300 a session, that's waymore than therapy.
That's like double.
Yeah.
Kristen (46:32):
Yeah, that's great.
'cause so many things justaren't that accessible.
And that's kind of one of thethings I want to.
Make people aware of on thispodcast is just like what you
can do with what you have andwhat is accessible and how to
find things.
Yeah.
A different way.
Maybe you're desperate.
It's very
Carly (46:50):
desperate situation when you're in, when something like
that is taking over your life.
It's very desperate situationand I, yeah, I have never found
anything that is that, thateffective and is that
affordable?
Kristen (47:04):
That's awesome.
I ask every guest if they haveany books that they love or just
any recommendations for anythingthat might just help people kind
of might, maybe outside of whatwe're talking about or maybe
going along with it.
Carly (47:18):
Yes.
I have three books that I'm veryobsessed with.
These are the top three that Iwould recommend in the same like
vein.
So the Body Keeps a Score byBesser, Bessel VanDerKolk.
He's like.
The top trauma expert been doingit for like 60 plus years, like
he's amazing.
He, that book kinda explainslike how trauma works in
(47:40):
general.
So if you wanna understand likewhy you're having certain
reactions and things, that bookcan explain a lot.
And then it also explains likewhy certain interventions work
and a lot of differentinterventions that you can try
'cause things work differentlyfor different people.
It doesn't mention Ketamine, Idon't think, because that was
before it came out.
But it's a very good like basisbook to like understand what's
(48:03):
happening.
And then the Happiness Trap byRuss Harris.
It's about mindfulness, whichis, you know, kind of the
general treatment for trauma isyou wanna notice when you're
having the triggers and beingable to sit with them rather
than avoid the feelings, whichis what we normally do because
it's painful.
Or maybe you were taught, youknow.
(48:27):
If you were abused or somethinglike that, you're taught to
ignore your own feelings and nottrust them in order to survive.
Or, you know, having anxiety ordepression, they're very
painful.
So we avoid, or it's notsocially acceptable.
So you just try to like move on.
This book talks about like theimportance of sitting with our
feelings and like tools to beable to sit with them and notice
them.
'cause if you can sit with yourtriggers, you know, this is the
(48:50):
way we heal, whether it'sthrough ketamine or other like
trauma treatments.
You sit with them, notice them,notice the feelings, notice the
false beliefs that might becoming up that are related to
it, and then being able to, youknow, s change those false
beliefs into more healthierbeliefs, nuanced beliefs that
help you to be able to interactin a safe situation rather than
(49:10):
just stay closed off.
And you know, your brain's stillthinking you're in this
dangerous situation.
So that book is really good indescribing the importance of
mindfulness and like how to dothat.
Those are some basic skills thatyou really need to have going
into Ketamine, I think, to beable to ground yourself and kind
of accept what's coming up andlet it move through.
And then no bad parts is thelast one.
(49:31):
So it's by Richard Schwartz andhe's the inventor of an
intervention called internalFamily Systems, which is not
technically like just a traumatreatment, but it's, I found it
to be really helpful with myselfand then with clients where
you're kind of understanding,you know, where your thoughts
are coming from, like triggersor bad experiences and how your
(49:55):
brain is trying to protect you.
And having compassion withthose, you know, those thoughts
and those reactions rather thanshaming them.
It just helps you to sit withthem more and being able to
listen to them and kind of learnfrom them and react in a
compassionate way, which isreally necessary because if
you've been, you know,traumatized or if you have
anxiety and depression, there'sa lot of stigma against it.
(50:16):
So being able to like.
Have compassion, like sit withit.
It's very helpful.
Kristen (50:23):
Yeah, those sound like great.
Just precursor, get you ready,maybe more aware of yourself and
what you're going through.
Awesome.
And we'll link everything thatyou've mentioned in the notes,
just so everybody knows.
And then if people want to like,reach out to, they have
questions where can they reachyou?
Carly (50:43):
Yeah, and I guess we can put my email on the, in the
comments as well, but yeah, sothey can reach you in my email.
It's carly davis dotsw@gmail.com and I usually check
that I get alerts, so if youhave any questions about like,
you know, my personal experienceabout it or, you know, other
things related to like traumahealing or, you know, wanting
(51:05):
specific therapists for traumahealing.
Resources about, you know,anything related to that, you
know, or just want someone tolike vent with and who gets it
and, you know, just someone whounderstands like, more than
welcome to email me.
Kristen (51:21):
Awesome.
Okay.
Yeah, we'll definitely put thatin the notes as well.
And yeah, thank you so much,Carly.
This is something I haven'ttried most of the guests I've
had on so far.
I've, I have some kind offamiliarity with what we're
talking about and this is liketotally new for me.
So it's been really awesome tojust talk to you about all the
different aspects of ketamine.
And I was kind of nervous, notnervous, I don't know, I was
(51:44):
just trying to understand itbetter because it, it's, we talk
about holistic things on thispodcast and it is a
pharmaceutical drug, right?
And, but.
It's the reason that I was like,oh we, this fits is'cause it's
something where you work throughit.
I feel like it really levels upyour ability to work through
(52:06):
your stuff on a holistic levelwhere you're getting to the root
and so,
Carly (52:11):
yeah.
Kristen (52:12):
Yeah.
So it's, yeah, you're getting
Carly (52:14):
to the root quickly and, you know, you have that
spiritual aspect that reallyhelps and it's just not as well
known and, or people don't wantto try it.
They're scared to try it.
Kristen (52:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm glad we could like,create some more awareness and
just get some questions answeredor maybe people didn't even know
they had questions and here wego.
So, me too.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Carly (52:37):
Yeah.
Thanks Kristen.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying whollyempowered, share it with that
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Until next time, stay empowered.
I am Kristen Russell, and thisis the Holy Empowered Podcast
where we dive into all thingsholistic healing and open our
minds, hearts, and paradigms tonew ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
Kristen (00:16):
Welcome to Wholly Empowered.
I'm Kristen Russell.
And today we get to talk toCarly Davis, who is a clinical
social worker and has done a lotof work with ketamine, so we get
to hear all about it.
Carly, welcome.
Thank you.
Do you wanna tell us?
Yeah.
Do you wanna tell us a littlebit about you, your background
(00:37):
how you got here?
Carly (00:40):
Yeah, and I hope I don't blab around too much, but if I
do, then you can tell me.
'cause I'm very passionate abouttrauma treatment in general and
ketamine and all these kinds ofthings.
So just tell me if I'm going ontoo long, but, so basically
before in, in the year 2018.
I was having my own like PTSDsymptoms and trauma from a bad
(01:04):
relationship and some otherthings.
And I was meeting a lot of otherwomen that were in the same
position.
And a lot of them had nevergotten therapy before being in
that group or still hadn'tgotten therapy and they had no
idea how to deal with theirsymptoms.
It was taking over their lives,like bad depression, anxiety.
lots of times we think aboutlike dreams and things like, or
(01:26):
nightmares and things like that.
But you know, those other thingslike preoccupation with the
trauma and like your nervoussystem being on edge all the
time trying to protect you.
So having anxiety and depressioncan be bigger symptoms that
people experience with trauma aswell.
So I met a lot of people thatwere experiencing that and just
struggling with getting relief.
(01:47):
Some that were even seeingtherapists and struggling.
So I decided to get my master'sin social work so I could become
a therapist and understand morehow to help myself and how to
help these other people that Iwas meeting.
Yeah, and I just kind of becameobsessed with that still
obsessed with it and just kindof learn as much as I could.
(02:07):
So I just to kind of give alittle bit of background of like
my experience with treatingtrauma and things like that, so
you know, that I sort of knowwhat I'm talking about.
So I did my internship, my firstyear internship.
They're both eight months.
I did with severely mentally illand inpatient.
And then I worked at a domesticviolence shelter my second year
with women with trauma, or maleswith trauma as well.
(02:31):
But I worked mostly with women.
And we did like communityoutreach as well.
And I learned, you know, thebasics of how to treat trauma,
trauma-informed care, differentinterventions that I can talk
about later.
Yeah, just a general training intrauma and did a lot of like
internal family systems learneda lot of ACT was getting my own
(02:53):
therapy and doing these samethings, CBT EMDR, some of the
very like basic like supercommon trauma treatments, like
kind of the best that we had atthe time and was getting
progress, but getting slowprogress myself and seeing slow
progress with others.
(03:13):
And so, that's kind of why I wasinterested in talking with you
about ketamine as well.
'cause I've just seen a lot ofdifference with people and
currently right now I'm taking abreak and been doing a lot of
ketamine treatments myself andgetting a lot of benefits.
So just really excited to talkabout it.
Kristen (03:30):
So cool.
Yeah.
Let's dive in to just like,basics of ketamine.
What is it, how does it work inyour brain?
I know it's kind of a, I didn'trealize it was kind of
controversial a little bit.
Like, it's kind of a it's kindof an unknown, I feel like, for
a lot of people where it seemslike it might be a psychedelic
(03:50):
or it's, but it's like aprescribed drug and it's kind of
this mystery in a lot of ways.
So just wanna unpack that alittle bit.
Carly (04:01):
Yeah.
And there's a lot to unpack withit.
So, I mean, I would say one ofthe barriers that make it so
people aren't able to access it,one of the biggest things if
people even want to access it isprice.
And so I feel like a lot ofpeople don't know.
A lot about it because it's noteven within their price range
and it's not done.
(04:23):
It's getting a lot more common.
There's a lot of like ketamineclinics that are popping up.
But as far as like, you know,the controversial, other
controversial aspects that makesit so people don't know as much
about it.
Along with price, there'sdefinitely like a lot of stigma,
I would say, and fear.
So I'll kind of describe likewhat ketamine is and what it
(04:45):
does and like, why thereshouldn't be as much fear.
So it's a, it's an anestheticoriginally used as anesthetic
and then they were doing somestudies and found that it was
helpful with people withdepression.
And so they started using it fordepression.
But the studies were coming outslow, like the, you know, just
(05:08):
'cause there is a lot of like.
Research that needs to be donebefore they use it with people.
And so I think it was in earlytwo thousands when they started
doing more of the studies.
And basically what it does isit's a, I looked this up before
because I didn't know thespecific science of it, but it's
an NMDR receptor agonist.
(05:28):
So what it does is it blocksglutamate from being taken into
the neurons.
So instead of being taken in,it's being able to be used
between the connections betweenthe neurons.
And so what that does is thatgives a greater connection to
other, like new learning andlike flexibility and being able
(05:52):
to see past the traumaticmemories and experiences and
things like that.
And that's one of the biggestthings with trauma is you have
these traumatic experiences andyour fight flight or freeze or
fawn area in your brain, theamygdala.
Holds these memories of thesetraumatic experiences and wants
to stick to those memoriesbecause survival is key for us.
(06:13):
So the most important thing inour, you know, for our brain is
survival.
Like we gotta stay alive.
And so normally in a situationwhere like you'd see a bear or
something like that, like itwould store that memory and you
would have those physiologicalexperiences and it would say,
okay, anything that is big andhairy and has these sharp white
teeth, like we need to stay awayfrom that.
(06:34):
Anything that looks like that.
So sometimes kids are scared ofdogs or even, you know, small
animals because that's thenatural instinct.
What happens with trauma is thatyou can be in a dangerous
situation, but then you, evenwhen you get out of the
dangerous situation, your brainstill stored those memories and
saying, okay.
Anything that looks like this,like, you know, you know,
(06:56):
whether it's like, okay, mytrauma was with a male, or it
was with a female.
Anyone that's male, or anyonethat's female is a danger, or
anyone that tries to get closeto me or anyone that, just
anything that's associated withit all.
And so it becomes supercrippling and people have a hard
time having relationships.
They have a hard time evenunderstanding what's happening
(07:17):
and not feeling like they'reconstantly in danger, even when
they're out of the dangeroussituation.
And so it very, it limits theirwellbeing a lot.
And so what it does, theglutamate in the brain, having
that extra glutamate betweenconnections then takes.
Your brain's ability to kind ofstretch out from the traumatic
memories and go to new learningand new experiences and making
(07:41):
new memories.
So, okay, maybe this male wasdangerous to me, but not all
males are, or things like thatwhere it starts to get more
flexible so you can start tohave relationships with others
and start to make sense ofthings and live a more whole
life and not be crippled withthose you know, anxiety and
depression and triggers all thetime.
(08:02):
So I hope I answered everythingyou said and not more than what
you asked.
Kristen (08:09):
Totally fine if you did.
I kind of threw a lot of thingsat you all at once.
So Okay, so we're in Utah and ifyou want to get a prescription
in, because it's, is it, it'sstate to state, is that
Carly (08:23):
right or So?
I am not as familiar with that.
I did see it's state to state,but it is approved by the FDA to
treat treatment resistantdepression and pain.
So it's legal.
So, I don't know, it's likestate by state.
There may be some differentregulations on like how you need
(08:44):
to get prescribed or things likethat, but it is approved by the
FDA, so you should be able to,you know, get it wherever you're
at.
And I know that if there'slimited, like clinics, if you
want to go to a clinic, like theactual clinics that are around
they're more rare.
They're becoming more popular,but it's not, you know, you're
not gonna get one in every city.
(09:04):
And so if you can come, go todifferent states and get treated
if you need to.
But the reason why I'm soexcited to talk about it now,
and I am not like, you know,paid advertiser, I don't get any
benefits.
I'm not associated with any ofthese companies or anything.
But you can now do it online.
You can go and meet with apsychiatrist online.
(09:28):
With a couple of differentcompanies, and you need to be
really careful which companiesyou use because they can, you
know, use other substances andnot get like a pure or safe
product.
So I have a couple of websitesthat I know that are safe and
one that I've used myself thatis like the most affordable that
I've found.
So you can meet withpsychiatrists online or you can
meet with a psychiatrist inperson or your doctor and they
(09:50):
can prescribe you either aspray, which is considered the
least effective because youspray it and then you get the
highest effects when you get thespray.
And then it kind of, you know,obviously it goes down as the,
leaves your system pretty quick.
And then there's the IV that youcan go and do in a ketamine
clinic and sometimes they have atherapist's office.
(10:11):
Therapists will be trained toadminister the ketamine.
So you can do that in an officeand you can have the therapist
present or you can have amedical professional present and
you can have someone guiding youthrough it.
If you do it online, you canalso have a guide.
And now they have the pills.
So the pills is what you wouldget if you went online and you
can meet with a psychiatrist.
(10:32):
They have a visit that isincluded in the price, so you
can meet with psychiatristsonline and get it delivered to
your house.
Or if you feel uncomfortabledoing it from home, like a lot
of people.
I think I would've feltuncomfortable starting that way.
You can go and do even just oneif you wanna try it in a
ketamine clinic, and they willhave, they can have a
(10:53):
psychiatrist or medicalprofessional there to like guide
you through it if you're reallynervous about it.
And then with the online aswell, they have someone that can
sit with you while you're doingyour session from home.
So they'll sit with youvirtually and yeah.
Kristen (11:09):
Okay.
When you go to a clinic, is italways an IV or do they do
different forms?
Carly (11:14):
So, at the clinic, I know they, they do iv, they do the
spray.
You can do the spray there andhave someone sit with you.
And I think that some of them dothe pills there as well, but
it's still gonna be moreexpensive than if you get the
pills online.
Kristen (11:32):
Is ketamine like a guided experience?
Like do you need someone toguide you through or would you,
do you need to guide yourself ordo you just kind of let the
ketamine do its thing?
Or how does that
Carly (11:41):
work?
I honestly think that depends onthe person and kind of where
you're at with your healing andkind of your experiences.
I would say if you haven't beento therapy and you haven't
developed some coping skills, Iwould not do it without having a
(12:04):
guide.
And even that being said, Iwould not go into it without
getting therapy and thingsfirst, because you need to be
able to ground yourself andbecause it is dissociative, so
you do, it's like an out-of-bodyexperience, so you're not.
You can get to a point whereyou're not aware of where you're
at and you're just, you know,seeing images or having thoughts
(12:28):
that are related to, you know,your trauma or, you know, heavy
things that you're trying towork through.
And so you wanna be able to havesome grounding tools or someone
there to help ground you,because if you're not able to
ground yourself, then that'swhen it gets to be an unhelpful
experience.
So you, but you definitely don'thave to have someone there.
I don't have, I've never hadanyone there, but I've gotten a
(12:50):
lot of therapy beforehand and Ihave a lot of coping tools and
things like that, so I neverhave anyone.
But I definitely write down myexperiences afterwards, use my
coping skills during it, andthen I meet with a therapist
later and process, you know,what I've seen and gotten from
it.
And it, it helps if you do itwithin the next couple days
(13:12):
after the session when theglutamate is still like really
high concentration in yourbrain.
It sticks more.
Kristen (13:19):
Okay.
So definitely a supplemental orlike a, something you do with
therapy.
Carly (13:24):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen (13:26):
And it's kind of a psychedelic, right?
Like you said, it's kind of anout of body experience.
I know sometimes people getnervous about it for that
reason.
They kind of associate it and itseems scary.
And so,
Carly (13:38):
yeah.
And I was definitely scaredabout that before I started it.
The difference I would say,'cause I know people that have
done, they now are doing studieswith mushrooms that has a
similar effect.
It's a different like, mechanismin your brain, but it's a
similar effect.
But mushroom seems to be alittle bit more of the, you
know, kind of like funkyimagery, but it's still tied to.
(14:03):
What you need to, it's stilltied to logical things that
you're processing.
It kind of shows you what you'regoing through, through imagery.
And ketamine is similar.
Like you'll see images of, youknow, that kind of describe new
thought processes or ways to seethings, your trauma and
experiences in a different wayor people in a different way.
But it's very like gentle andit's not like you're not seeing
(14:27):
weird stuff that doesn't makesense.
Like you're not seeing like, youknow, that weird, like Winnie
the Pooh nightmare, heffalumpthing kind of stuff.
Like, it's not random at all.
It's very like, oftentimes it'sreally beautiful imagery and
it's stuff that makes sense.
It's logical.
It's stuff that you've alreadyseen before, not like creepy,
(14:49):
weird stuff that, you know, isjust disturbing.
It doesn't make sense.
You're having, you're processingthings while you're in the
ketamine and then your braincontinues to be able to process
things better after theketamine.
Kristen (15:02):
Do you feel like you need to be in a good, kind of a
good head space when you startthe ketamine?
Like could you have a badexperience potentially, or,
Carly (15:11):
yes you can.
And I can't say this like worksfor everyone because I'm not
everyone, but the only timesthat I've had bad experiences
was when I had a headache or amigraine.
I have never come back fromhaving a headache before I start
the treatment or a migraine andbeen able to get through it
(15:34):
while I'm in the ketamine andhave like mostly positive
experience so that it kind ofjust confusing.
Like you can't think straightand so you don't, it can feel
more random.
So I never do it if I have anykind of a headache.
And I'll take medication like,you know, four hours before just
to make sure that I don't have aheadache.
And you can take ibuprofen, likeI'll take Excedrin Migraine,
(15:55):
things like that, so you cantake that stuff.
But it's supposed to be like afew hours before.
Then the other thing is having atoo high of a dose and because
it's still new, I found that,you know, a lot and a lot of the
clinics that are, you know,providing like the IV ketamine
(16:17):
treatments and things like that,they're not, the people that are
giving you the dose are notmental professionals, mental
health professionals, and eventhe psychiatrists maybe don't
have specific training andtrauma, and so they want to keep
upping your dose.
But really with any kind oftrauma healing, they say slower
(16:39):
is faster.
So you don't wanna put yournervous system in too high of a
panic because then you're justretraumatizing yourself.
You're putting your brain backin a situation that felt scary,
but you don't it's, it's soheightened that you can't ground
yourself.
You can't, you just feel likeyou're back in that situation.
And I've had that with higherdoses.
(16:59):
So I've had them push for higherdoses, even like five units
more, and I'll have a badexperience and then I went right
back down and have a greatexperience.
So I stay I'm pretty low.
I'm at 60 units and I havestayed at that dose for the
three years that I've been doingit.
And I get amazing results everytime.
So start slow.
(17:21):
It's better safe than sorry,like you wanna heal from this
stuff, but you will get amazinghealing in one session and you
can get negative effects if yougo, you know, too high.
So start low if you have anyquestion, like just stay low
because I think a lot of people,and a lot of people I've known
who I know could really benefitfrom ketamine that haven't
(17:42):
gotten a lot of help from other,treatments for trauma that have
some pretty severe trauma.
They just stopped doing itbecause they kept getting pushed
to go higher and it was a badexperience.
Whereas, you know.
Which I had consistently at ahigher dose.
If I stay lower, I have a greatexperience every single time,
except for if I have a headache.
Kristen (18:04):
Wanna talk about the, I know it's kind of a spiritual, I
feel like anything in that realmis, it's sort of a spiritual
enhancer or like, it opensthings up and I feel like that
can be good or bad.
It depends.
But I wanted to know if you'dhad any cool experiences where
you, like your higher power orlike ancestors or something came
(18:29):
and helped you or you know, justthoughts on that.
Just that whole part of it.
Carly (18:35):
Yeah, 100%.
So I, I'm religious, I'mChristian, so that has a filter
on, you know, my experienceswith it.
But I think that's one of thereasons why it can be
controversial for people thatare religious is maybe they
think that like, okay I'mturning to this like psychedelic
(18:58):
drug rather than like, God inprayer or like scripture
reading.
Like people think, you know, youknow, those are kind of the more
go-to things that, you know,Christians will do and, but.
Because it's, it also has a verystrong physiological effect on
your brain.
Like it's going to give youbenefits, whether you're
(19:20):
spiritual or not.
That's just kind of an addedbenefit if you are.
And so like, it is a realphysiological, scientific thing
that's happening in your brain.
So it's not, you know, justsome, I don't know, like hippie
dippy kind of alternative otherthan God or religion or
something like that.
Like it really has it's like anyother drug.
(19:41):
It's like a medication for, youknow, diabetes or something like
that.
Like it is physiologically doingsomething powerful that's
helping you heal.
So with that aspect, like, youknow, even if you're not
spiritual it's extremelybeneficial.
And if you are spiritual, andsometimes people who aren't,
like, I would say from what I'veread, most people, including
(20:05):
myself, have had very spiritualexperiences where I think it's.
Because you have thatphysiological effect.
You know, in my opinion, He'sable to speak to you in new ways
that maybe when you're anxiousor depressed or feeling
traumatized, that you can't feelor you can't see.
And he is kind of, you know,that physiological aspect is
(20:27):
kind of taking away thosebarriers and that inhibition
there and you're able to feelyour trauma and you're able to
feel the pain and, you know,experiencing it, but it's not
overwhelming.
You don't feel the physical painvery much because it's an
anesthetic and then you're ableto think about it in a more
clear way, so it's notoverwhelming.
And in that experience, I mean,I've had some of the most.
(20:54):
Enlightening and personalspiritual experiences that I
have ever had besides one otherexperience.
Outside of ketamine.
And I, you'll hear this a lot,people will see, and I've seen
ancestors, people that havepassed on.
This is really cool, but likespecifically related to like
trying to understandgenerational trauma, so where
(21:15):
like my trauma comes from, Ihave seen ancestors and I've
been able to understand more ofwhere they're coming from and
kind of where they're at now.
I've been able to forgiveeasier, a lot easier.
I remember when I first did myfirst session of ketamine, I was
really struggling.
I'd been stuck in this frozen,you know, anger, sadness place
(21:40):
for about a year and a half.
I'd made a lot of progressbefore that, but something
happened where, you know, I justfelt like gaslit confused about
like.
If I could trust my own feelingsand experiences, that's a very
common trauma symptom.
And so I just could not logic itout no matter, you know, what
E-M-D-R-I did and talk therapy,what, whatever intervention I
(22:01):
did, like I did the top thingsand it was not working and I
could not get out of it.
And I was waking up for monthscrying almost every single
morning.
As soon as I woke up, I'd beendreaming about it, you know,
vivid dreams.
I would feel the anger and thesadness in my dreams is super
strong and I could not sortthrough it.
And I did one ketamine session,my first ketamine session, and I
(22:25):
am not, you know, saying this toadvertise anything, but I, after
that experience, during theexperience, I saw insights into
the people that were involved inthat and able to see things in a
new way.
I could not, before that madelogical sense.
It made spiritual sense like.
It wasn't something I had tojust convince myself was true
because someone else wastelling.
(22:46):
It made total sense to me, evenafter I was out of the ketamine
experience.
And I never woke up again cryingagain.
And I stopped ruminating aboutit and I could see things in a
more nuanced way that washealthy.
And so a lot of people havethose kind of experiences and
will feel, you know, self-love,you know, it's very like,
(23:07):
gentle.
It's very it's at the right paceand the right flow.
Sometimes, you know, eventherapists can push you a little
too far or you push yourself toofar.
Like, it's very gentle.
It's very powerful.
Spiritually.
Physically.
And I was actually reading theother day that they have a lot
of the same experiences thatpeople have on ketamine.
Similar to the documentedexperiences that people have had
(23:31):
with near death experiences, andI have definitely found that to
be the case, just very profound,like taking you back to the
basics and you know, I could betotally super triggered, not
able to get out of it, crying,depressed, do a ketamine
session, and I feel immediatelybetter.
And that level stays there atlike a, even if it comes down
(23:53):
some, I stay at like a mediocrelevel and I be able to see
things clearer and processthings clearer.
So it has immediate effect wherea lot of the other stuff
doesn't, it's very slow.
Even EMDR, which is like kind ofthe next best thing that we have
to treat trauma.
Kristen (24:07):
That's so cool.
Yeah.
When you talk about it, Ialways, it reminds me a lot of
like my experiences with energywork and so it just feels like
you're, feels like you'recheating.
Like it's like you just likejumped ahead and everything's
just clear and it all makessense and it's like better.
And yeah, it just sounds likevery similar results.
(24:30):
Yeah.
Carly (24:30):
It feels like magic.
And I think that's why peopleare hesitant.
I'm a very logical person andI'm a very I'm very picky about
what therapists I see, you know,they have to be trained in
trauma, like not just e mdr rthey have, I'm very picky and I
wanna know why the things workand you know, I know why this
works.
And then on top of it, I amhaving these, like, you know,
(24:54):
that physiological experienceand then I'm having the
spiritual experience that justlike escalates it to a whole new
level where, you know, we havethe best of trauma treatments.
And like I was saying, you haveEMDR was like the best.
Then we had like talk therapy,narrative therapy, you know, all
those other things I was talkingabout.
And then I wanna say ketamine'slike up here and you still need
(25:17):
like talk therapy.
You still need to processthings.
Like you still, those otherthings are still valuable, other
aspects that touch differentthings and kind of solidify the
ketamine as well.
But I think people, it's likeone of those things where it's
it seems like it's too good tobe true because we've been so
slow in discovering ways thatcan really help people with
(25:37):
trauma.
Like people have suffered withPTSD.
You know, you think aboutveterans, but other people as
well that maybe you don't thinkabout as much.
Like people in abusivesituations that turn to
addictions, like, you know, orjust trust issues and just
things that last like a wholelifetime.
And they can do so manydifferent things and it can get
better, but it's still soconsuming.
(26:00):
And you know, I've experiencedthat myself and this ketamine is
like if I'm stuck, especially ifI'm stuck or blocked.
Ketamine is the only likepsychological.
Treatment that I found that can,that gets me unstuck every time.
Even if it's just a little bit,it moves me forward and then it
moves me forward the next time.
And, you know, it's amazing.
Kristen (26:22):
That's so encouraging to feel like there's, especially
when you feel stuck like thatand it's just like, nothing's
working to know that there'ssomething you can do.
And I feel like there's so manyoptions actually.
Like the more I learn, the moremodalities I learn about.
I'm like, oh, there's ketamine,there's like energy work,
there's just a lot of thingsthat can get you unstuck, but
it's, that's just really cool tohear about just your experiences
(26:45):
and especially'cause you'veworked with a lot of clients
too.
Carly (26:50):
So when I was working with women with trauma, I wasn't
trained in like, you know.
Injecting the Ketamine and doingthat.
So I'm not trained in that.
I'm trained in EMDR.
So my clients that I work with,were not doing ketamine, but
I've read a lot of research onit of the benefits that people
are having.
(27:10):
And then I've known other peoplethat've had the same benefits
and they're, a lot of the peopleare, it's like they're just as
excited as I am and they're justas like, mind blown as I am.
And then there's like, you know,those other groups of people
where it's like they had a badexperience.
And I can't say like, yes, it'sfor everyone because I don't, I
(27:31):
can't know that.
But I have seen in myself, likeI said, the higher dose and the
headaches, if you can take careof those things, you can have a
bad experience with those forsure.
I've had those similarexperiences that people that I
know that are like, oh, itwasn't for me.
Like I had a bad experience.
Like it was just too much.
(27:52):
Either they haven't gottentherapy, they don't have
grounding, or it was too high ofa dose.
But if you get those things incheck for me, and for a lot of
other people it's good, but it'snot necessarily for everyone.
Like there's, that's why there'sso many modalities, you know,
and so many new things and evenjust spiritual things that can
be really powerful on top ofthat.
But the other thing that I wouldsay too is, you know, you're
(28:16):
meeting with a psychologist,they're gonna help you know if
it's for you or not, and they'revery careful.
So another thing that they willnot prescribe you ketamine for,
you're not eligible, just sothat you know, so you know, it's
not disappointing, is if youhave any kind of psychosis.
So if you have like.
(28:38):
Bipolar.
And you know, if you get manicand you have psychosis during
that time, like you can't takeit because it can make things
worse because it, you know,you're having this like,
out-of-body experience you'renot able to ground yourself as
well.
It can be scary, it can be, youknow, cause more psychosis.
And so if you have anything likethat, you know, schizophrenia
(28:58):
psycho affective disorder youknow, like I said, you know,
bipolar or depression withpsychosis, anything like that,
they, it can make things worse.
But that's, as far as I know,like, you know, mental health
wise, those are the only thingsthat block it.
And then there are some physicalthings that they wanna know, and
I don't know all the details,but when you see the
(29:19):
psychiatrist, they're verythorough.
So they go through anything.
But the main blocks that I'veseen is anything like that.
So that is frustrating for thosepeople, but that's why there's
other modalities as well.
So
Kristen (29:31):
is that if you have that diagnosis at all.
Or is it just, if you're goingthrough a like manic period, you
wouldn't do it during that time?
Carly (29:39):
I believe it's if you have it at all, because it can
induce it even if you're notgoing through it at the time.
Kristen (29:45):
Okay.
I'm curious, I don't know ifyou'll know the answer to this,
but if you have like a familyhistory, like anybody in your
family who's had psychosis, isit something you might wanna
avoid or could it like bring itup in you?
Carly (29:57):
So, I mean, I don't know specifically.
I know that when I've gottenscreened for it, they've never
asked me about a family history.
They asked me if I had thatdiagnosis.
So I wanna say that you'd beokay.
And it might have to do morewith like your age, because lots
of times those disorders comeout in like early twenties and
(30:20):
things like that.
So it might have to do with age,but the psychiatrist would be
the one that would know.
I don't know like specificdetails about that.
Okay.
Kristen (30:27):
Yeah.
Ask your psychiatrist.
And then so as far as symptomsthat it treats, I know it's
really good, so anything withtrauma, right?
Carly (30:38):
So yeah, for me and for a lot of other people that's been
like reported benefits, butcurrently the FDA approves it
for treatment resistantdepression and chronic pain, but
they will prescribe youoff-label for trauma or anxiety
and people are seeing a lot ofeffects with that.
Outside of that, I'm not surewhat else, but I know that
(30:59):
people see a lot of benefitswith anxiety and trauma as well.
Kristen (31:03):
Okay.
So that's kind of when to takeit or when to look into it if
you're having those specificthings.
Is there anything else youwanted to discuss about this?
Like anything you want people toknow about taking ketamine or
the experience or things to justbe aware of?
Carly (31:23):
Yeah.
I mean one thing I would add islike, that I didn't mention is
like those other things I wastalking about, those other
interventions help and they canhave a similar effect, but
they're a lot slower.
So people see results a lotquicker and a lot deeper as
well.
So, I mean, that's huge whenyou're like having, you know,
(31:48):
trauma symptoms, PTSD, CPTSD,stuff like that.
Kristen (31:54):
Yeah.
Okay.
It just kind of speeds thingsup.
Yeah.
I would say
Carly (32:01):
one other factor that I think people are like hesitant
to try it sometimes in likereligious spaces is the fact
that it does have a reputationbecause people have used it
illegally as a street drugrecreational drug, but that's
not its original use.
People have just, you know,people can misuse pain
(32:22):
medications that can do similarthings.
So, you know, it is legal, it islike, you know, tested and.
My personal opinion, things, youknow, even like, like I was
saying, diabetes medication orcancer treatments, like, a lot
of those things are veryaccepted.
And I think those things arealso inspired to help people
(32:44):
like improve their quality oflife.
And I, my opinion is ketamine isthe same way.
And so using it in a way it'smuch smaller doses than people
would use it as a street drug.
So, you know, there is theaddiction side too that people
are scared of.
And if, you know, really we haveresearch people who use it
recreationally daily and they'reusing it in high doses, can get
(33:06):
addicted.
So they can have withdrawalswhen they're not using it.
But with treatment, withketamine, with psychiatrist in
proper way, you're never usingit daily.
In the beginning they will haveyou do, usually it's like six
doses.
Six sessions within a three tosix week period.
So it's like two a week or one aweek.
I did one a week and I saw like,you know, great benefits because
(33:29):
I could process things, thesession longer and things like
that.
So it just kind of depends onwhat you want.
But then after that, it's likeonce a month maintenance.
And I've never had any kind oflike, you know, dependence or
withdrawals with that frequencybecause it's still bringing up
things that are difficult toprocess.
And, you know, most of the timein the ketamine I'm having like
(33:50):
a positive, like really, youknow, powerful almost elated
experience throughout there.
But it, it does come up with,you know, I will have little
times where I'll cry or when itbrings up hard things.
Like it can be painful, but itmoves on pretty quick.
And so with that frequency,you're not, you know, there,
there's no.
(34:11):
Research that shows any, likeaddiction or dependence in that
way.
But if you used it in the wrongway, like there definitely is,
but that you're not gonna beusing that when you have a
provider that's like prescribingit to you in the right way and
you know, you're using it thatway.
And then, on top of that, like,like I was saying, it is like
any other drug that isprescribed, like it's, it may be
(34:33):
used in unhealthy ways, butthat's not the way that you'd be
using it.
Kristen (34:39):
Don't buy it on the street and you'll be
Carly (34:41):
Yeah.
Be okay.
Kristen (34:44):
Yeah.
Do you do you feel like itcontinues to be very effective
as you view, like it doesn't thedose, I don't know.
So I know some things kind oflose their effectiveness as the
more you use them.
Some drugs,
Carly (35:00):
yeah.
So they do say that like yourbody does get used to it, but
once you get in the maintenancephase.
Like you're doing it the once amonth.
I've never seen a decrease inthe benefits that I get every
session.
So I think if you're using itmore than that, you could, and
maybe some people do, and itdepends on the person, like, and
(35:21):
if that's the case, if you'restarting low, it's no problem to
up it a little bit.
Like if you're like, oh, I'm notgetting very much.
You can up it a little bit andyou work with a psychiatrist and
they, you know, especially withthe company that I am, I used to
do at IV and it was veryexpensive.
It was$300 a session.
So like, not affordable and mostinsurance companies will not pay
(35:43):
for it.
It's worth it to check and seeif yours does, but most will not
pay for it.
And if it does, then it's about60 a session.
And when I'm using the ketamine,I mean, I'm paying like that
amount, the pills, I'm payingabout that amount or less from
home.
So.
I forgot what you asked me.
Kristen (36:04):
Just if it loses effectiveness as you
Carly (36:06):
keep using it.
Kristen (36:07):
Yeah.
Carly (36:08):
So, you know, I haven't seen any like loss in
effectiveness and even if youhave to bump it up a little bit,
then that's totally doable.
Kristen (36:16):
Yeah.
Is the IV like way more intensethan the, like the dosage is
still the same, right?
Yes.
But does the
Carly (36:24):
form affect it?
They will, they'll try toprescribe you a pill that's
equal to the dose that you weregetting with iv.
And it's a little bit differentbecause with the iv it's
continuous.
So with the pill it mightprescribe you a little more
because you'll get, so you'llget that bump and then it kind
of like wanes off.
But the dose that I'm at that isI'm having the equal experience
(36:48):
that I do with the iv.
I'm actually having longer timewith the ketamine, you know,
with that like extra glutamatein my brain.
I'm having longer experiencesand for me, I like it.
Better doing it from homebecause I'm not interrupted by,
okay, hey, like your session'sover.
Like, you know, we gotta get yououtta the chair and you gotta
(37:09):
get home.
'cause the more time you have tojust process afterwards and just
sit with it, the better it'llstick and the more you'll get
from it, the more you'llremember.
So I like it better for thatreason.
And I don't have, I have a morepowerful experience as long as
I'm getting enough ketamine tohave that similar, you know,
(37:31):
dosing that I have with iv, Idon't lose anything.
Kristen (37:34):
So can you take us through what that looks like?
So you take the dose and then itsounds like it gets intense and
then you kind of slowly come outof it.
Like how long does that take?
And then you're kind of stillprocessing, you said it was in
your, it's kind of the glutenglutamines still doing its thing
for like a couple days.
Is that right?
Carly (37:51):
Yeah.
So.
I'll kind of describe theprocess.
So it like, takes away some ofthe like, unknown and fears.
So you take a nausea like Zofranprobably like 20 to 30 minutes
before you take the ketamine andyou know, I'll just lay down in
my bed.
You can sit if you want to.
But I, the dose that I take isgets me like, you know, where I
(38:15):
am, like completely dissociatedfrom like, everything
surrounding me within like 20,30 minutes.
But when you start, they willstart you very slow, which is a
good thing because you want tobe able to ground yourself.
And when they start you at thatdose, like sometimes you won't
even be dissociated as in like,you know, when at the higher
(38:35):
doses you'll get so sleepy thatyou'll close your eyes and it's
almost like you're having adream.
So I.
Start slow.
And then as you build yourconfidence with it, you can get
to that point.
And if I'm taking my prescribedregular dose that I would have
with the iv, I am out, like Isaid, within like 30 minutes,
I'm starting to just like losetrack of what's around me.
(38:58):
And then I close my eyes and Iam, I'm out for about, I set an
alarm.
I have people in the house withme that will come and check on
me as well, but I set an alarm.
I'm out for about an hour, andthen I, you know, I'm I can, I'm
aware, but I can kind of closemy eyes again and I'll go back
(39:19):
and keep getting like amazingbenefits.
I'm a little more aware, but I'mstill getting those benefits.
And then after another, like 45minutes I'm aware where I know
where I'm at, like I can.
You know that there's like avisual distortion where you kind
of see tunnel vision when you'rein ketamine, like that kind of
starts to die down and I'm awareof the sounds around me and
(39:39):
things like that.
So, but then after that I cansit there and process for
another hour plus and still begetting new info and remembering
the things that I saw where I'm,and then capable to write them
down and just continuingprocessing and like remembering
it and recording it.
Kristen (39:59):
Cool.
And then do you kind of continuefor, is it, I don't know, for a
longer period of time, do thingskeep kind of coming to you or is
it just sort of in thattimeframe
Carly (40:09):
Yeah.
That you talked about.
So you will like.
You will have a higherconcentration for like, for the
next couple of days.
So it's very powerful and inthose next couple days is when
you get the most out of it.
If you can keep, you know,reminding yourself what you
learn and keep thinking about itand processing it, it sticks
longer.
If you can do it within thefirst couple days, it has like
(40:30):
really significant effects thatway.
Like you wanna keep thinkingabout it and processing it with
a therapist or if you can't,like on your own reviewing like
your notes and things like that.
But it also has a longer termbenefit through that next week.
And then once you do themaintenance, you get those first
six sessions they want to get inyour system, get it going.
Then once you get to themaintenance stages, it continues
(40:53):
to have benefits throughout,like, you know, throughout that
month, after you get those firstmaintenance sessions in.
So like you continue to be ableto think clearer and have more
glutamate in your brain afterthose maintenance, after those
first initial sessions and thenduring the maintenance.
Kristen (41:11):
Do you feel like there's kind of a long-term
effect of just you feel moreself-aware and things are just
clearer?
Like over time you notice like,oh, I just, I'm just very
self-aware now.
Something.
Carly (41:25):
Yeah, for sure.
I mean, you still have to workat it and choose to think about
and process of things, but evenwithout me choosing to do it,
I'll notice that, you know, Ihave these triggers where maybe
I see a certain type of thingand every time my nervous system
has gotten reactive andtriggered and I, you know, feel
(41:46):
unsafe, but now like, you know,I'll just glance at something
and my mind will think a totallynew thought.
Like, oh, well, you know, thatperson might have this going on.
And I feel like a little bit ofempathy for them, or like for
myself.
Whereas in situations where Icould never have done that
before.
So it does happen naturally.
(42:07):
And also the more you processthings, the more you get and the
more it sticks.
But it definitely startshappening naturally and like
undoing some big triggers thatyou, for me, like I haven't been
able to get progress onotherwise.
And a lot of the people say thesame thing.
Kristen (42:25):
Yeah.
Just kind of heals your brain,huh?
Wow, that's awesome.
All right, is there anythingelse you wanted to say before we
wrap up?
Carly (42:32):
Yeah.
So like I said, like I'm notgetting paid for any advertising
or anything, but I did wannamention because I was doing the
IV only and I had to stop'causeI couldn't afford it.
So like, you know, if you'redoing the IV and you don't have
insurance,$300 a month, that's alot.
(42:52):
Most people can't afford it.
And so I had to stop and I hadoriginally looked at a company
called Mind Bloom.
Where there were about, I thinkthere were about a thousand for
I think it was eight sessionsand I couldn't afford, or like
1200 and I couldn't afford that.
So I stopped looking at theonline, but then when I was
(43:13):
getting a lot of benefit and Iwas like, Hey, I need to work on
my own, like, you know, traumafor a while, I looked up more
ketamine companies online to seeif I could get something more
affordable.
And I found a company calledBetter You, and that's the one
I've been using.
And they are so thorough.
They're extremely supportive.
(43:33):
They send me texts even when Idon't reach out to them, like
checking in on me how I'm doing.
They have a, you know, like apsychiatrist, like I said, that
you can meet with that willprescribe you.
And then they have, you know,you can keep meeting with them,
you can have a buddy with youonline as you're doing the
session.
And then they also have a groupwhere you can go and talk about
your experience, which helpsintegrate it.
(43:55):
Which is really helpful if youcan't afford a therapy'cause
therapy's really expensive.
And so with that company, lemmego to word the pricing.
So if you go to better youcare.com, you can find the
pricing.
But it is, I can't find in mynotes, but I know it's I got a
(44:17):
Black Friday deal, so if it'sBlack Friday, like that's an
ideal time to go.
I got four sessions for, sorry,eight sessions for$500, but
normally it's four sessions forabout$500 and then eight
sessions for about 900.
(44:40):
So, but I've been able tostretch them and if you're
starting out with a low dose,like I'm using a high dose much
higher than someone's juststarting with ketamine from
home, they're gonna prescribeyou a lot lower.
So, I've been able to stretch itlike one and a half, almost two
times as much as they even toldme.
So I'm paying anywhere betweenlike 45 to like$60 a session.
(45:03):
So that's just something wherethat makes it a lot more
accessible for people.
And you know, when you're goingthrough mental health stuff lots
of times like, you know, you'renot functioning super well,
you're maybe not making as muchmoney as you want.
So I just want people to beaware of that website.
And like I said, I'm not likepaid to advertise it at all.
Kristen (45:25):
Yeah.
But, and one initial investmentand then you have it for a
while.
I'm guessing it lasts for sometime.
Carly (45:33):
Yeah, I mean I had the eight sessions worth and I've
been using it since November.
And like I said, I take higherdoses and sometimes I do it more
frequently than, you know, oncea month.
And I'll process it with mytherapist, like make sure that
they're aware and things likethat.
(45:54):
And I don't do it more than, youknow, once every two weeks, but
you know, I have more time on myhands right now and I wouldn't
recommend doing that likewithout talking to psychiatrist.
Like, you know, you need to bevery careful with it.
But you can spread it quite abit'cause I'm doing it, you
know, a little more frequentlyand at a higher dose than
starting.
(46:15):
And I am still going and I stillhave more.
So yeah it's ex extremelyaffordable, even more affordable
than just talk therapy, which iscrazy because it normally like
the$300 a session, that's waymore than therapy.
That's like double.
Yeah.
Kristen (46:32):
Yeah, that's great.
'cause so many things justaren't that accessible.
And that's kind of one of thethings I want to.
Make people aware of on thispodcast is just like what you
can do with what you have andwhat is accessible and how to
find things.
Yeah.
A different way.
Maybe you're desperate.
It's very
Carly (46:50):
desperate situation when you're in, when something like
that is taking over your life.
It's very desperate situationand I, yeah, I have never found
anything that is that, thateffective and is that
affordable?
Kristen (47:04):
That's awesome.
I ask every guest if they haveany books that they love or just
any recommendations for anythingthat might just help people kind
of might, maybe outside of whatwe're talking about or maybe
going along with it.
Carly (47:18):
Yes.
I have three books that I'm veryobsessed with.
These are the top three that Iwould recommend in the same like
vein.
So the Body Keeps a Score byBesser, Bessel VanDerKolk.
He's like.
The top trauma expert been doingit for like 60 plus years, like
he's amazing.
He, that book kinda explainslike how trauma works in
(47:40):
general.
So if you wanna understand likewhy you're having certain
reactions and things, that bookcan explain a lot.
And then it also explains likewhy certain interventions work
and a lot of differentinterventions that you can try
'cause things work differentlyfor different people.
It doesn't mention Ketamine, Idon't think, because that was
before it came out.
But it's a very good like basisbook to like understand what's
(48:03):
happening.
And then the Happiness Trap byRuss Harris.
It's about mindfulness, whichis, you know, kind of the
general treatment for trauma isyou wanna notice when you're
having the triggers and beingable to sit with them rather
than avoid the feelings, whichis what we normally do because
it's painful.
Or maybe you were taught, youknow.
(48:27):
If you were abused or somethinglike that, you're taught to
ignore your own feelings and nottrust them in order to survive.
Or, you know, having anxiety ordepression, they're very
painful.
So we avoid, or it's notsocially acceptable.
So you just try to like move on.
This book talks about like theimportance of sitting with our
feelings and like tools to beable to sit with them and notice
them.
'cause if you can sit with yourtriggers, you know, this is the
(48:50):
way we heal, whether it'sthrough ketamine or other like
trauma treatments.
You sit with them, notice them,notice the feelings, notice the
false beliefs that might becoming up that are related to
it, and then being able to, youknow, s change those false
beliefs into more healthierbeliefs, nuanced beliefs that
help you to be able to interactin a safe situation rather than
(49:10):
just stay closed off.
And you know, your brain's stillthinking you're in this
dangerous situation.
So that book is really good indescribing the importance of
mindfulness and like how to dothat.
Those are some basic skills thatyou really need to have going
into Ketamine, I think, to beable to ground yourself and kind
of accept what's coming up andlet it move through.
And then no bad parts is thelast one.
(49:31):
So it's by Richard Schwartz andhe's the inventor of an
intervention called internalFamily Systems, which is not
technically like just a traumatreatment, but it's, I found it
to be really helpful with myselfand then with clients where
you're kind of understanding,you know, where your thoughts
are coming from, like triggersor bad experiences and how your
(49:55):
brain is trying to protect you.
And having compassion withthose, you know, those thoughts
and those reactions rather thanshaming them.
It just helps you to sit withthem more and being able to
listen to them and kind of learnfrom them and react in a
compassionate way, which isreally necessary because if
you've been, you know,traumatized or if you have
anxiety and depression, there'sa lot of stigma against it.
(50:16):
So being able to like.
Have compassion, like sit withit.
It's very helpful.
Kristen (50:23):
Yeah, those sound like great.
Just precursor, get you ready,maybe more aware of yourself and
what you're going through.
Awesome.
And we'll link everything thatyou've mentioned in the notes,
just so everybody knows.
And then if people want to like,reach out to, they have
questions where can they reachyou?
Carly (50:43):
Yeah, and I guess we can put my email on the, in the
comments as well, but yeah, sothey can reach you in my email.
It's carly davis dotsw@gmail.com and I usually check
that I get alerts, so if youhave any questions about like,
you know, my personal experienceabout it or, you know, other
things related to like traumahealing or, you know, wanting
(51:05):
specific therapists for traumahealing.
Resources about, you know,anything related to that, you
know, or just want someone tolike vent with and who gets it
and, you know, just someone whounderstands like, more than
welcome to email me.
Kristen (51:21):
Awesome.
Okay.
Yeah, we'll definitely put thatin the notes as well.
And yeah, thank you so much,Carly.
This is something I haven'ttried most of the guests I've
had on so far.
I've, I have some kind offamiliarity with what we're
talking about and this is liketotally new for me.
So it's been really awesome tojust talk to you about all the
different aspects of ketamine.
And I was kind of nervous, notnervous, I don't know, I was
(51:44):
just trying to understand itbetter because it, it's, we talk
about holistic things on thispodcast and it is a
pharmaceutical drug, right?
And, but.
It's the reason that I was like,oh we, this fits is'cause it's
something where you work throughit.
I feel like it really levels upyour ability to work through
(52:06):
your stuff on a holistic levelwhere you're getting to the root
and so,
Carly (52:11):
yeah.
Kristen (52:12):
Yeah.
So it's, yeah, you're getting
Carly (52:14):
to the root quickly and, you know, you have that
spiritual aspect that reallyhelps and it's just not as well
known and, or people don't wantto try it.
They're scared to try it.
Kristen (52:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So I'm glad we could like,create some more awareness and
just get some questions answeredor maybe people didn't even know
they had questions and here wego.
So, me too.
That's awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
Carly (52:37):
Yeah.
Thanks Kristen.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying whollyempowered, share it with that
friend or on your socials.
You can also hit the followbutton if you want to keep up
with the latest episodes.
Until next time, stay empowered.
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If you've ever wanted to know about champagne, satanism, the Stonewall Uprising, chaos theory, LSD, El Nino, true crime and Rosa Parks, then look no further. Josh and Chuck have you covered.