12. All About Finding Freedom From Porn - with Kyson Kidd - Wholly Empowered

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I am Kristen Russell, and thisis the Holy Empowered Podcast
where we dive into all thingsholistic healing and open our
minds, hearts, and paradigms tonew ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.

Kristen (00:16):
hey guys, so today we get to talk with Kyson Kidd, and
Kyson is a men's coach.
He is a musician.
He does a lot of cool things.
But today we're probably gonnabe talking mostly about his work
that he does with men on,getting rid of unwanted porn
habits.
So, Kyson, do you wanna tell usa little bit more about you?

(00:36):
What got you started in this,what you do?

Kyson (00:40):
Yeah, totally.
I'll give you a summary, alittle summary, and you can let
me know what other questions youhave.
Basically, like many men, I, Ieven wanna say most men, I got
pulled into pornography as alittle kid, just kind of
stumbled on it.
Then you've got, you know,different experiences where
friends will bring it up or, youknow, all kinds of different

(01:01):
things.
And so it, it's a trap that Ifell into pretty young, maybe
like age eight or nine is whenit first started.
And then from there, you know,more heavily into my teens.
And I, I feel like the classic,you know, I come from a.
Christian background um, churchof Jesus, Christ of Latter Day
Saints.
And so, you know, you've gotlike family patterns, you've got

(01:24):
social patterns and culture, andthen you've got like church
culture there.
And so I did what most peoplewould do in that culture, which
was like, you just try not to,you know, like willpower your
way through it.
Like stop, you know, tellyourself how bad it is or how
bad you are, or, you know,visual there, there's like all
these ideas, right?

(01:45):
Like sing a song, sing a hymn,or read, read the scriptures or
pray or like go try to doexercise.
Or, my personal favorite was,I'm kind of being sarcastic, but
it was like, think of, think of,you know, have a picture of your
family and think of a picture ofyour family and how much they
would be hurt if they knew whatyou were doing.

(02:06):
And so a lot of that stuff waslike pretty shame, you know, a
lot of shame for at least theway I interpreted it was like,
just shame yourself so bad thatyou stop and you know, it would
work for like a week or a monthor six months or even a year at
one point, and then you justfall back in'cause nothing had
changed.
And so, later on, when I wasabout 25, 26, I had some good

(02:32):
friends.
It was like back to back.
I feel like God just brought mepeople to ask me really hard
questions.
Like I had a friend that waslike, Kyson, you ever, you ever
considered that You might dealwith a lot of shame.
I was like, what is, like, whatdo you, what is that?
You know, I've heard, I've heardthat word, but I don't think I
have that.
And then, you know, I startedhaving these like kind of
awakenings of like, oh dude, I,I do have some, some issues

(02:56):
going on.
And I ended up getting into likeyoga a little bit and then into
the world of energy work andcoaching and like eastern
philosophy.
And essentially it all leads tothis moment of asking this
question of what's beneath mypornography habit?
What's underneath my shame?

(03:17):
What's underneath, you know,whatever it is my, what's
underneath my anxiety arounddating and friendship and
connecting with people.
And so, you know, I'd say likethere's all these different
modalities or different,different tactics and things
that you can go to.
But I'd say the most core thingthat I've found in my whole
journey is all based on thisquestion of what is beneath it?

(03:41):
What's down in the roots?
You know, if you picture a treeinstead of what's in the
branches, right?
Like what's the fruit comingfrom it?
What's actually deep beneath thesurface in the roots?
And so, as I started asking thatquestion, you know, we can go
into detail more later here, butjust like from there I started
asking that question.
I started realizing that as Iworked it in the roots or with

(04:02):
the deeper issues I actuallystarted to feel freedom instead
of just like, I have to fight myway through it.
I started to feel the temptationfrom pornography disappear.
Or you know, like I remember, Iremember the first time it
literally disappeared all theway.
I was like, what the heck?
Like, it's the first time in mylife where I'm not feeling
tempted.
And it was three months offreedom and I thought maybe that

(04:24):
was gonna be it.
And then as temptation came backup basically what I learned is
that that just means there'ssomething else deep in the roots
to to address or to heal.
And so, I started workingthrough things for myself and
then that kind of led me toworking, helping other people
work through similar thingshelping them figure out what's
in the roots for them.

(04:45):
And so I've been coaching fulltime for about.
Let's see, what year is it?
Maybe like seven to eight yearsis, it's been my main endeavor
and it's just, it's been so fun.
I'm always learning.
I'm always growing.
And then I love just getting tosee my clients go from a place
of like feeling stuck andfeeling like a victim and like,
I can never change.

(05:06):
The best hope I have is just tolike pretend, you know, or
willpower through it, and thenshifting out of that into
freedom.
And it's so fun to see the, theattention shift away from like,
I need to stop pornography.
And we actually shift over tolike, how can I create a life
that I actually love?
And it's so cool to see thatshift.

(05:27):
Anyway, it's just been veryrewarding and yeah.
Did, did I, did I answer yourquestion?
I kind of forgot what you askedme.

Kristen (05:33):
Yeah, no, sorry.
Just about you and how you gothere and what you do.
So yeah, but that's awesomebecause I feel like this is a,
I'm so excited to talk aboutthis because I feel like it's
something that people don't, it,it's so enmeshed in shame and
it's so like, difficult to talkabout or feel any kind of hope.
I feel like there's a lot ofpeople that just feel very

(05:54):
trapped.
Yeah.
So I'm, I'm, it's exciting tohear about someone who's had
success with just, oh, we'refinding like the deeper things
here and we're working throughit and.
I can, you know, you can helpother people, but

Kyson (06:08):
yeah.
Thank you.

Kristen (06:09):
Yeah.
Yeah.
So as far as what was theprocess like, kind of, what
things did you find that helped,or how did you get to where you
are with coaching?

Kyson (06:23):
I think in a lot of ways I'd go back to like, just the
simplicity of a great questionfrom friends.
You know,'cause I went my wholelife, like I'd hear the word
shame, but I never likeinternalized it.
And so for me you know, thosepowerful inspired questions
where you get to actuallywrestle with what's in your
heart, I, I think are just lifechanging.

(06:43):
So, you know, there, there areother coaches that have
different approaches, but for methat's, that's been the key is
like, I'm looking for thequestion basically.
Like, I know there's somethingin the roots.
I know there's somethingunderneath what's going on for
me.
What's the question to get methere?
And so, you know, whatever thatprocess looks like for people,
like being prayerful or going toscriptures or talking with

(07:05):
friends you trust there'ssomething like every change I've
ever had has been a result ofasking a powerful question.
And so, you know, I founddifferent modalities that have
helped me with that.
I've, I've loved like yoga andmeditation gives you a chance to
sit and be quiet.
I stumbled on emotion code,which is like an energy.

(07:25):
Healing modality.
Love that.
And then from there I went toHealers Blueprint, which I know
you're familiar with.

Kristen (2) (07:34):
Mm.
Yeah.

Kyson (07:34):
And Healers Blueprint to me felt like a, it felt like a
library of questions.
It's a hundred thousanddifferent questions you can ask
and try to like unravel what'sgoing on down in the roots.
So, yeah, I stumbled on that.
Let me think what else ishelpful.
May, I mean that's the core ofit.
I'm trying to, there's gotta be,you know, beautiful perspectives

(07:57):
and I'd say like questions andthen also choosing to practice
self-awareness.
Like, what am I thinking?
Why am I thinking it?
Where did it start?
You know, so over the years,and, and I do this every day,
like it's a practice now toidentify the way I'm thinking
and why I'm thinking it.
But over the years, some of themore impactful like

(08:19):
breakthroughs there that I'vehad would be like recognizing
like, it's so interesting howmany thoughts you think without
even noticing.
I remember like hanging out witha friend and after I leave this
house, I get in the car and likeoutta nowhere I hear this
thought that's like, men aremonsters.
I.
Whoa.
Okay.

(08:40):
Like, and what's interesting isas that thought popped in, I was
like, you know, now that I thinkof it, that's a thought.
I have thought many times, likethat's just a thing that's in,
it's, it's kind of a message weget from society and from who,
you know, men are monsters.
Men struggle with porn more thanwomen.
If there's a, you know, a crimeor whatever, it's probably a
man.
You know, there's all thisstuff.

(09:00):
And so as I had that thought popup, it was an opportunity to
wrestle with, do I believe thator can I let that go and believe
something else?
And so I, I would start makinglike a list, maybe journaling.
That's another thing to tossinto your, like practices.
Just lists and lists of likefalse beliefs.
I found this one about myself,about this one, about men, this

(09:21):
one about sexuality you know,this one about pornography, like
since I struggle, I'm a badperson.
You know, all these ideas andways of thinking and, and just
starting to unravel those andcheck in is like, is this really
true or is this just the wayI've been thinking about myself?

Kristen (2) (09:36):
Yeah.

Kristen (09:38):
And so I know you do, I know you do group, group
coaching and individualcoaching.
Can you tell us a little bitabout what those look like?
Like what does a session looklike or, you know?

Kyson (09:48):
Yeah, yeah.
Lately I have.
Been leaning more towardsindividual.
Like I'm not opposed to group,but when I've done I've, I've
done group stuff and it's funfor like general teaching, I
think.
But as far as the getting to thedeep roots, I feel like that's
where individual is Awesome.
So yeah, for me, I typicallystart, like, I give people a

(10:10):
free consultation.
Anytime someone is interested intalking with me then we get a
feel for like, how self-awareare you?
How much work, what have youtried, that's not working, you
know, so I, I try to get a feelfor where people are at.
And then from there, really, I,I honestly feel like my first
goal is like, I want to get youlike two to three questions that

(10:30):
you've never ever asked aboutyourself.
That feeling of like, whoa, Ihave never thought of this.
And so, that, that's essentiallythe goal of my sessions.
That's like the very simplisticway to say it.
Yeah.
It's mostly just a lot ofquestions and a lot of, like,
I'll, I'll ask questions abouthow you show up in
relationships.
How do you feel about your, youknow, how's your self love

(10:53):
doing?
Like, a lot of self-evaluation.
The cool thing that I find isthat pornography is not, an
isolated problem.
Like most guys who struggle withit will tend to think that way.
I remember thinking to myselfoften I'd be like, oh, porn is
the only thing I really strugglewith.
Other than that I'm like, almostperfect, which is like so funny

(11:14):
that I would talk to myself thatway.
And then as I learned, I waslike, oh gosh, I've got so much
stuff, you know, I've got a lotof things I'm doing that are
weird.
But basically what what's coolis if you have the right
questions and the rightperspective, basically
everything you're doing willteach you why you're turning to
porn to see if I can make senseof that.

(11:35):
Like, the way you show up inrelationships will teach you
about the way you're showing up,you know, why you're escaping to
porn the way you eat food.
Whether it's like superindulgent or like, oh, there's
never enough or scarcity, right?
There's like, I'm afraid therewon't be enough food for
everybody.
So I sacrifice it and giveeveryone else food first.
Like, all the things you'redoing can teach you about what's

(11:56):
going on inside.
And then we can kind of takethat and look at like, oh, is
that also why you turn to porn?
Because there's not enough love,right?
Or there's not enough women inthe world, no one could ever
really love you or you're notenough.
So basically we just likeexplore everything and try to
look at how is your life andyour relationships trying to
show you.

(12:16):
Like, what is going on?
Like it's trying to show you whyyou're turning to porn, why
you're turning to other things.
Does that make sense?

Kristen (12:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I think that's reallyfascinating.
Like, I'm already like, oh, nowI'm like thinking about, I don't
know, just like other things.
Like, it's like I feel like thiswould probably apply across the
board to not just porn, youknow, it's like,

Audio Only - All Particip (12:36):
yeah.

Kristen (12:37):
Probably all kinds of things, but totally.
Yeah.
It's really, that's, that'scool.
And what, who, what's the maindemographic you're working with?
It sounds like it's probably

Kyson (12:47):
mostly men.
Mostly Christian, but I do forsure work with people with
different beliefs.
Yeah, I'm very, like, I'm acoach, right?
I'm not a therapist, so I have alittle more like, flexibility in
some ways.
And then as a coach, like I tryreally hard, I don't put my
morals on people, my values.
It's like, you need to thinkthis way.

(13:09):
It's more about figuring outwhere you're at and what you
want to create, and I help youstep there.
So yeah, I do a lot.
I'd say mostly married men.
But I've, I've worked withteens, occasionally I've worked
with single men.
And then, I mean, it's worththrowing out there.
Like, I, I work, basically, Ijust try to work with whoever I
feel called to work with, right?

(13:29):
So if you've, if someone'slistening and they're like, oh,
I'm not sure.
That's why there's that freeconsultation.
Like, just can come hang outwith me.
So yeah.

Kristen (13:38):
Do you exclusively work with men or is, do you, have you
ever worked with women?

Kyson (13:42):
I, I don't work with, with a lot of women who struggle
with pornography.
That's occasional, but Idefinitely work with women on
other subjects.
Kind of applying the sameprinciple, right?
Like, oh, you're struggling withthis.
What's in the roots beneath itfor you?
I'll help you resolve it.
So yeah, I totally work withwomen as well.
Oh,

Kristen (13:58):
cool.
In working with single menversus married men, do you see
any differences, especially withthe, just like with the
demographics you're working witharound how they view themselves
or how they view sexuality?
Yeah.
What do you notice there?

Kyson (14:17):
Yeah.
Oh, such a, a good question.
I think for single men, I don'tknow, like, it, it definitely
depends on the person and theirbackground, but for single men
that come from like a churchbackground, typically there's
this, there's a lot of feararound sexuality.
There's a lot of like, unknown.

(14:39):
Like I think a lot of single mendeal with like.
So many conflicting thoughtsaround sexuality.
Like, oh, sex is bad, but it'sgonna be good later if I'm, you
know, when I'm married.
And then I, I honestly thinkthat most, I'll say us, like
most of us guys as, as we weresingle, there's this belief
slash maybe a hope that like sexwill save you.

(15:03):
Can I say it that way?
Like, you know, okay, I've gottahold out for like finding a wife
and then sex is okay.
And then the hope is that like,then I'll be happy, then I'll
feel validated, then I'll feelfinally like, I'm loved.
And what most men find is thatthat doesn't happen.
They still are struggling withall this internal stuff and porn

(15:25):
sticks around, you know, if theystarted porn before their
marriage, which almost everyoneI've worked with has like,
pretty much everybody.
It will almost always continuethrough until you resolve the
root issues.
So, yeah, I to, I totally seethat attitude around sexuality
though.
Like, almost like, I hope itwill save me or just one, you
know?
And then that's why likepornography becomes this like,

(15:48):
replacement of like, maybe if Ilearn about sex or maybe if I
fantasize, you know, maybe Icould like find some resolution
for the pain I feel internally.
And, and it just doesn't, andit, so, so then when I work with
married men there can bedifferent attitudes.
I'd say it ranges quite a bitonce they're married.
But I'd say that does that,that's the general thing I see

(16:11):
across the board is that like,oh, I, you know, that
satisfaction or that validationor that feeling of love is not
there like I'd want it to be.
What else would I say aboutmarried men?
Oh man, there's so many things.
There is an interesting patternI see where most of the men,

(16:35):
like, I don't know, is it okayif I talk about like, one of the
underlying things I see?

Kristen (2) (16:40):
Definitely.
Yeah.

Kyson (16:40):
So, and, and I think it's connected to your question where
basically every guy I've workedwith who struggles with porn
also.
Deals with a lot of peoplepleasing and then a lot of like,
feeling controlled in theirrelationships.
So that one's interesting.
I, I'm definitely not trying toput it, I'm not saying that the

(17:02):
wife is controlling, but I'lltell, I'll say that that is the
story, meaning the story intheir heart and mind is like,
oh, my wife is always telling mewhat to do.
And if I, maybe if I do what sheneeds and wants, then I'll
finally feel like she loves me.
And then, you know, there's thislike deficit living in deficit
constantly.
I need to like do more and getahead of it.

(17:24):
And then, oh dang, my wife isstill sad.
And so then like, then I feel,you know, then I feel weak or I
feel like I'm not good enough orI feel rejected.
And then that's where porn kindof comes in as like a false
bandaid for that wound.
So I'd say that's a dynamic Isee quite a, quite a bit, not
with every single one, butthere's almost always some

(17:45):
element of like, I feel like mywife dictates what I do.
I can't say no, I have to sayyes, and then I feel controlled.
And then I think porn often actsas an outlet to either go get
the validation you didn't get.
I'm not saying the women aresupposed to make you feel
validated, but that's like theway it feels is like, oh, she's
not, you know, I don't feelfully validated by her, so then

(18:07):
I gotta go over here.
Or it could be like, oh, I feelso controlled.
Let me go lash out and.
Act in a place where I can be incontrol.
And it is not necessarilyconscious, but that's like a lot
of times when people say, Hey,I'm struggling with porn.
One of my first questions islike, who do you feel controlled
by?

(18:27):
And it's usually like, oh,everybody my whole life.
But especially, it's, especiallywomen, unfortunately.
So, yeah.
I know.
Let me, I'll pause there.
You can throw me follow upquestions on that if you have
them.

Kristen (18:40):
Yeah, I feel like there's so many, there's so many
like different things that Iwant, like, that I wanna talk
about and that you have to talkabout, and I'm just like, oh my
gosh, where do we even, but Idefinitely wanna talk about the
patterns that you see, but Idon't know if there are like a
lot more that we can talk aboutwith that.
But also I guess with the, like,married versus single, I think a

(19:03):
lot of my audience is like aChristian or just like religious
group and mm-hmm.
Do you feel like these men havea healthy view of sexuality?
Do you feel like it's, because Ifeel like sometimes we're, we're
taught to respect sex, and we'retaught to, you know, we wanna be

(19:24):
like, hold it as sacred and thenit, it can get a little muddy
where it's like, well we're,we're making all these extreme,
like, I don't wanna, no, I can'tthink about it, or I can't, you
know, and it, and it gets very.
We get wrapped up in this storyof if I do X, Y, Z things, then
I'm, I'm bad.
You know?
Yeah.

(19:44):
Do you see that a lot like with,especially, especially single
men, I guess, where it's like itgets warped.

Audio Only - All Participa (19:53):
Yes.
For sure.

Kristen (19:54):
Like all of, all of their views around sexuality

Kyson (19:56):
yeah, absolutely.
Yeah, I think like it.
Okay.
An interesting illustration ofyour question is like, okay,
most people think this way,right?
Like, thinking about sex is bador lustful, right?
Like that I shouldn't thinkabout sex.
But then what if you're marriedand you're thinking about like,
sex with your spouse, right?

(20:16):
Like, oh, I'm thinking about afun way we could be creative
together.
I'm thinking about connectingwith my wife.
Like, is that wrong?
And you know, for me, I feltlike there, I had to work
through some stuff.
Like, wait, I think that'sactually awesome.
I think that'd be awesome if I'mthinking about connecting with
my wife in that way.
You know?
So that's an interesting one toovercome.
And then I think a reallydifficult question that I still

(20:40):
do not have the answer to islike, what is the appropriate
exploration of sex beforemarriage?
As, as far as like, how much isit okay for me to understand if
I feel really curious about it,how much learning could I do
before I'm crossing a line?
You know, how muchunderstanding, how much like,
'cause I don't think the answeris to not explore it at all.

(21:04):
I think that's, it sounds verysuppressive, right?
Suppress it all down.
I mean, we are sexual, we arebuilt.
Sexuality is part of the waywe're built.
So yeah, I'd say that's still,that's something I'm still
searching out.
That perhaps that's one of thereasons I still work a lot with
married men, where I'm like, I'mnot, I'm not totally sure how to
address the, like what do you donow if you're single?

(21:27):
But I do think that.
As people kind of approach theirhigher power with that question,
I think some really powerfullearning can, can show up.

Kristen (2) (21:38):
Yeah,

Kyson (21:38):
because yeah, I mean for me, I feel like it was kind of
like, let's say like before,before marriage and then after
marriage thoughts.
It was kind of news to me thatlike, oh, like sex can be fun,
creative, you know, laughing,connecting it's like weird to
think that I'd almost be like,oh, it's supposed to be serious.
Like, what does that, orthere's, you know, like there's

(21:59):
all, there's a lot of otherthings to wrestle with, like,
what does it mean to be romanticor what do, how do I want to be
romantic or not?
And so I do think that sometimesthe fear around sexuality before
marriage.
It can really fuel pornographybecause it feels like the only
way to learn about it.
Whereas I think if we had reallyopen conversations with people

(22:20):
that we trust, I think we couldreally, I, I mean, I think we
could really just change the,the cultural understanding.
I don't know.
I, I've got a few people like inmy journey that have helped me
change my perspective on sex.
And, and just like the way Ithink about it, man, it's, I'm
so grateful for them sayingthings that would typically be

(22:42):
seen as way awkward.
Like, I can't believe you saidthat.
And then I'm so grateful for thethings they've said, you know,
just like, anyway, I dunno ifthat answers your question or do
you have thoughts on, on that aswell?

Kristen (22:53):
Yeah, just, I guess just like this question of like,
what is healthy sexuality?
Right?
And that's hard.
It's tricky when you're tryingto abstain before, you know,
you're trying to stay away fromit before marriage or whatever,
whatever your values are beforeyou're in a serious relationship
or whatever it is.
But yeah, just kind of like,What is, what is that?
But it's, it's tricky.

(23:15):
It's tricky.
I feel like what you were sayingabout going to your higher power
with it is probably good advice,but I feel like a lot of, like
you were saying, it's hard toknow where the line is with
getting educated and thinkingabout it and, you know, it kind
of embracing it a little bit.

(23:36):
It's a tricky

Kyson (23:37):
subject.
I, I have a similar feelingactually, like, for those that
are into like, energy work,right?
Like, to me, the energy of thisquestion feels super blocked.
Mm-hmm.
Like, I feel like I'm trying tostep into a room and I hope it
would be like open and like Icould explore, but instead it
feels like I'm walking into likecurtains.
You know?
It just feels like, oh, it'sreally hard to even ask this

(23:57):
question.

Audio Only - All Partic (23:57):
Mm-hmm.

Kyson (23:58):
Which I don't know if you're, if this feels like a
good direction, but like my gutfeeling is like, oh, I want to
ask a question, a new, a newquestion about this.
Yeah.
Can we try to find one?

Kristen (2) (24:09):
Yeah.

Kyson (24:09):
Like, I don't know, like for starters, let me set a
thought here and see if thisbrings a question, because I do
think it's important todelineate.
Let's see, there's somethingabout, let, let me see if this
works.
Like this is just going onfaith, right?
There's this thought that'spopping up.
Like I, I think there's aninteresting the concept of lust,

(24:35):
I think is really hard to pindown.
You know, some people you would,if you were to ask like, oh,
does, is there a place for lustin marriage?
And I think some people arelike, depending on your
definition of lust, some peopleare like, oh yeah, for sure.
That's like the place where it'swelcome.
I, but I've been kind of likesplitting hairs here and like
trying to divide like what islust versus what is like what if

(24:57):
lust is different than likesexual desire or sex drive or
things like that, or sexualpleasure.
Let's see.
Oh, I can feel this connectingto something.
So let me try this for fun.
This is, this is my personaldefinition of lust.
It is like taking power ininappropriate ways.

(25:20):
Mm-hmm.
So I'll give you my briefexplanation on why I think of it
that way.
'cause you can lust after money,power, sex, popularity.
It's interesting that we use thesame word, right?
So those things on their own,like money on its own is not
bad.
It's a power.
But when taken inappropriately,it, it is bad.
It does damage.

(25:41):
Popularity can be an amazingpower to have influence over
people or with people when takeninappropriately, right?
Then it becomes bad.
Sexuality is the same.
I think it's a neutral power orit's, it's intended to be a
great positive power, but whenwe take it inappropriately
that's when it becomes bad.

(26:02):
There's also this idea of like,power over another.
And I think that, I think that'sincluded in at least this part
of lust that I'm trying toidentify is like overpowering or
controlling other people.
And so I, let's see, am I goingin an okay direction?
I have like one more thought toconnect that I think will bring
us somewhere.
Yeah.

(26:22):
So then I would ask why do, ifI'm feeling lustful in any of
those ways, like I want to havepower over, or I want to take
power inappropriately.
Usually it starts with a fearthat I am weak.
Right, because otherwise, if Iwas totally confident in my
actual power, I wouldn't be likedesperate to get more or to get

(26:45):
power over somebody else.
So I think it starts with afalse belief that I am weak or
I'm not gonna be enough as I am.
And then there's this idea thatlike, instead of going for the
true route to power, let me goto God or to truth, or to, you
know, growing and healing as ahuman, I'm gonna go for the
false version of power, which iswhere I take it.

(27:07):
And I think most people whostruggle with porn will find
those patterns of thinking in,in their minds and hearts like,
I'm not good enough.
I can't get the real trueversion of this power or this
desire.
And so I've gotta do acounterfeit, which is gonna
either look like, you know,taking money or using money to

(27:27):
be better than other people ortaking sexuality that way.
So What if there was a way tolearn about if we can separate
out lust, right?
'cause I don't think lust isever positive.
What if there's a way to exploresexuality without it being
lustful?
Like without it being abouttaking power or overpowering

(27:49):
other people or it's still avery complex question, but I
think there's something aboutthat setting that foundation of
like, can I learn about sex?
Because obviously you're gonnahave a sex drive before you're
married.
That's part of like being 12 andolder, you know, so it's there.
Mm-hmm.
What is, what is okay for me tolearn about?
Can I do it in a way that's notlusting after or fantasizing

(28:12):
about something I'm not, andmore about understanding what I
am question mark.
I know that's still not like ananswer, like, oh, we found it,
but it's like a stepping stone,you know?

Kristen (28:24):
No, I love that.
Yeah.
I think that's probably the bestanswer we can get in this
context, I think.

Kyson (28:32):
Right?
But that's because it's in it'sindividual.
Yeah.
Everyone's gotta explore that.

Kristen (28:36):
I was gonna say, that's probably something you have to
just talk with your clientsabout and kind of figure out,
you know, on your own.
But I think it's valuable todiscuss in this format.
Just, just to get peoplethinking about it, I guess,
'cause Yeah.
'cause it is tricky.
It's very tricky.

Kyson (28:55):
It is.
Can if you're down, I have athought that kind of connects,
you talked about shame earlier.
Yeah.
Can I, can I bridge this toanother thing?

Kristen (29:04):
yeah, I was gonna say, I would love to discuss shame.
'cause I feel like that's thebig thing that people, it used
to just be very like, like youwere saying earlier, like you
just have to stop doing it andthen people realize shame's a
big factor in keeping it as acycle, like a shame cycle.
Yeah.
Um, So I'd love to talk aboutthat and just any other things
any other players in whatperpetuates it, but if that's

(29:28):
where you're wanting to go, but

Kyson (29:31):
Yeah, totally.
I, I think, I honestly thinkthat shame will, shame does way
more damage than pornographywill ever do.
That's a scary thing to say.
You know, as an example, peoplestumble on pornography by
accident.
Most kids are getting exposed tolike, age 12 is the average 12
or younger.

(29:51):
So like, do we really need toadd shame to.
What's usually an accidentalexperience.
And I, I think this, this playsinto our conversation about like
healthy sexuality beforemarriage, right?
Is like, if we feel shamefulabout it, it's really hard to
know what, like what am Iallowed to think about if I feel
natural, natural curiosity.

(30:13):
You know, what's okay for me to,to explore or consider I wanna
share an experience just to givepeople something to wrestle with
around this.
So the first time, and this is avery common, I've heard this
from many of my clients, but thefirst time I like talked to a
church leader about this, whereI was like, Hey, I'm, I've been
struggling with porn.

(30:34):
And oh gosh, I better be carefulhere.
This is not at all to like, I'mnot trying to criticize a like
church or anything.
I'm more like criticizing afalse belief that keeps getting
repeated.
'Cause yeah, I had a, a bishopask me, he is like, okay, so are
you also masturbating?
I was like, yeah.
And he's like, okay, well here,here's the breakdown he gave me.
He's like, so adultery, we, youknow, there's like a scripture

(30:57):
out there that's like, adulteryis next to murder.
So big deal.
I was like 15, I think.
,15, 16.
Adultery is next to murder.
And if you're looking at pornand masturbating, you're
essentially like pretending tocommit adultery.
So I.
Yikes.
Yeah.
You know, and that, that's likeall the explanation I got.

(31:21):
Basically, that's all I rememberfrom that first visit is like,
whoa.
I'm like, walking close tomurder, I guess is like pretty,
is pretty serious.
And then the other thing that I,this gets tossed around all the
time for young men in churchsettings is, I heard this in
Christian.
Yeah.
All kinds of places where likethey'll say, okay, there's a
study, or there's this guy whois like interviewing all the

(31:42):
psychopaths in the world, andthe, the number one commonality
between all of them is it startswith porn and like, okay, cool.
That might be true.
You know, there's all kinds ofthings you could say about that.
But for a little kid, I, I'mbeing totally serious, that is
the most common teaching I hearfrom all my clients is that they

(32:04):
get told that how serious it is,that it's basically getting
close to adultery and murder.
And that also psychopaths arepretty, you know, porn is where
it starts.
And so you've got these littleteenage kids that are like,
wait, I'm, I'm that bad.
Like, I'm literally that bad.
So I, I think that's pretty, apretty intense example of shame

(32:25):
being the motivator.
Whereas here's, here are someother statements that I believe
are also true, that are way moreempowering.
Like, you know, from my, myreligious or spiritual belief
perspective, I believe that we.
We're spirit spirits before thislife and we came here and got
bodies.
And so a way to say that islike, this is our first time

(32:47):
experiencing sexuality in a bodylike this.
This is like a new thing.
It's a new experience, a newsensation, a new whatever.
And so I think God is veryunderstanding of us not getting
it right the first time.
Or the first 100 times.
You know, I think, I think ofthe beautiful story in the New
Testament where the woman whowas caught in adultery is

(33:09):
brought to Jesus.
And he wasn't like, oh, did youknow adultery is next to murder?
Like you almost murdered there.
And maybe he did say that andit's just not written.
I don't know.
But what we have written is hesays, you know, go thy way and
sin no more.
It seems a little more chill.
Another interesting point isthat the first, I could be

(33:32):
mistaken on this, but I've, I'veheard that I need to maybe like
double research this, but one ofthe first people, possibly the
first person that Jesus likerevealed himself to as like I am
the Messiah, is the woman at thewell.
And she had like five husbands.
Isn't that So he asked her thatquestion, right?

(33:53):
Like, you know, where are your,I don't know how he says it.
Like, you got all thesehusbands, you know, so that's
adultery.
And he also is just liketeaching her with love.
I think that's so beautiful.
And so I, I think we need topractice more of that.
I think what we have is a lot ofparents who are more, who, who
are super afraid about sex aswell.
And so they're trying to teachthe children the way they are

(34:15):
talking to themselves, which is,I better not mess up.
That's a, I'd be a terribleperson if I did so let me teach
my my kids that way.
And that's why it comes throughso shamefully.
Yeah,

Kristen (34:27):
yeah, yeah.
Well it seems like, from whatI've heard from people I've
dated or you know, whatever itstarts out so just innocent, you
know, and then they end up shamecycling, you know, and it, and
then it does become a problemand it's really heartbreaking
'cause it's so unnecessary.
It's like we're just, we'rejust, like you said, we're just

(34:48):
figuring it out.
And it seems like if we couldyeah, change the messaging
around that a little bit in, inour cultures and society in
general to where, I mean,there's a balance obviously.
It is something that's, that'sspecial and, and you wanna, you
wanna do it in a healthy way.
But but yeah, it's, it's, if wecould.

(35:09):
Kind of figure out how to, howto teach that in a, in a way
that's more accepting.
And like this is just, this isjust our, our physical like
experience.
And it's okay.

Kyson (35:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I agree.
We need, I think sex is veryspecial.
And I, you know, I alsounderstand that porn does bring
about a lot of hurt and harm tofamily.
Like, so I don't want todiminish that at all.
But again, I, I still think withall the harm and, and hurt that
porn has done, I still think theshame of other people has done

(35:43):
the shame of this from yourselfand from others has done way
more damage.
'cause it, that's another thingto understand for, you know,
there, I know there's a lot ofpeople that get fired up about
this stuff, which I think isappropriate.
It's a, it's big.
Something that is, I.
I think important to remember, Iguess is like a lot of, for a

(36:04):
lot of women who like will maybediscover their husband using
pornography, like, that'sobviously super difficult, very
painful.
Especially when it was hidden,right?
Like they didn't, you know, thisis not a problem they talked
about before.
I, I think, well, I, what Ithink is important is to give
both partners like a full, fullspace to feel through all the

(36:24):
stuff.
For some partners, you know,it's like, for some women
they're like, oh, I had no ideayou're struggling with that.
How can I support you?
Like, this is hard, but, youknow, you obviously are going
through stuff.
Let's figure it out together.
Other women are like, get outtamy house.
You know, I'm like, I'll divorceyou if you ever do that again.
And both are understandable.

(36:45):
I do think a, an importantperspective is again, that most
of these men started receivingreally messed up messages about
sex by the time they were likeeight to 10 years old.
They, honestly, that is the way.
Most kids are thinking, or many,many kids are thinking, is that
like, if I'm a guy, then gettinga girl is the thing that makes

(37:06):
me have worth, if I'm a guy,then a girl wanting to have sex
with me is like the sign thatI'm worth something, right?
So there's all these messagesthat start, and then if you
stumble on pornography, there'slike the shame, there's the
twisted.
You know, seeing women showthemselves that way, that's
like, there's just so, there'sso many interesting things.

(37:27):
It's such a complex issue.
And I think what it does is itlocks the, when you see that
stuff as a kid and when youstart, especially with the
shame, it locks your child selfup.
Like you get locked in thisworld where, where sex is the
only thing that can save you andsex is also the thing that's
destroying you.
And so I think a lot of the menthat get into that are very

(37:47):
immature.
Part of them is very immature,emotionally.
And I'm saying, I'm talkingabout myself like, I was like
26, right?
And I'm, I was like, shame.
What is shame?
Like isn't that, that's crazy.
26.
And it's because I had locked upmy 12-year-old self trying to
like not look at porn, but stillstruggling with porn.
And so anyway, in a lot of ways,like you've got a little kid
who's been hiding themselves formany years before a marriage

(38:11):
and.
Hopefully that can bring somecompassion for some of the men,
especially for the men who arebeing accountable and like, want
to change.
I'm not suggesting, you know,occasionally I've had a couple
of guy, like, I, I tend not towork with the men who are not
taking accountability.
Like, it just doesn't work.
But I, I guess occasionallyI'll, I'll work with a guy who's

(38:32):
like, it's my wife's fault andshe needs to gimme more sex.
I'm like, okay dude, we're gonnalike talk about this a few times
and see if I can help you shift.
And if not, like I just can'thelp you.
Nothing's gonna change.
But most of the men I work withare like really, really good men
who have a ton of spiritualgifts and strength and amazing
desires.
They they just have gottencaught in some traps.

(38:54):
So I, I just, I know I just didanother like, avalanche of
thoughts.
Thanks for Yeah, thanks.

Kristen (39:01):
No, no, that's great.
You're, you're here to talk, soI'm like Excellent.
This is great.
We wanna hear your thoughts.
So, but yeah, around just whenyou're talking about how, how
this plays out for kids andlike, I feel like often there's
like the shame and then I wannatalk about the word addiction a
little bit.
I wanna circle back to that tolike shame and kind of some
things related to that.
But when you talk about it, youoften use the word habit.

(39:24):
And I'm curious what yourthoughts are on the word
addiction versus habit in regardto porn.

Kyson (39:31):
Yeah, you're right.
I do use the word habit.
I don't like the word addiction.
I, to be honest, personally, Idon't like the word addiction
about anything.
But especially with pornography,so like, yeah, I'm okay with
like, alcohol addiction or drugaddiction.
I know that's like true.
Even in the world of therapy,they're actually shifting away
from the word addiction becauseit's not a true addiction in the

(39:52):
way the brain reacts with it.
For me, my stance is a littlemore of a philosophical.
Thing though.
'Cause the word, the wordaddiction has a ton of power.
It's like, oh, it's a thing Ican't control.
Right?
We love to like, oh, you've gotan addiction.
Right?
So it's not really your fault.
And again, I don't come from theother angle of like, it is your
fault.
You suck, you can controlyourself.

(40:13):
But here's like, here's anillustrative.
Is that a word?
An example that illustrates.
Okay.
I, I had a client who hadstruggled with porn like every
day, even twice a day, most daysfor like 10 years.
It's like, that's all heremembers, basically is like I
look at porn every day.
So I was talking to him, I thinkit was just our free

(40:35):
consultation, and I was likeasking questions and found some
stuff that came up around likethe way his family treats him
and the way he feels like theythink about him.
And I was like, when's the firsttime you felt that?
And he like, kind of had aflashback to like a younger, you
know, age 12 or age 10.
And he started crying and justrecounting it, like a really
difficult experience thathappened.

(40:56):
And we, we worked through it.
We talked about some of thoseroot issues.
And then like, without evenexpecting, he told me two weeks
later, he is like, dude, I had10 days without using porn.
I.
So that's where I'm like, dude,you guys wanna say that's an
addiction.
But here's the thing.
He had one breakthrough and hegot 10 free days.
He wasn't like even trying thathard.

(41:18):
Like he, we, he didn't do afollow-up session.
We, he kind of disappeared onme, but like 10 days of free,
you know, porn free days fromjust understanding one of his
root issues.
And so I, I also shy, so I shyaway from like, talking about
addiction.
And I also don't love the, thechemical brain conversation.

(41:39):
Oh, it's just chemical pathways,dopamine, the same thing.
It's like, if it's a chemicalpathway, how can it change
immediately once you shift yourheart and shift your spirit?
So I, I've seen that over andover and I, I just don't find it
very helpful to talk about it asan addiction.
Yeah,

Kristen (41:55):
yeah.
Yeah.
And I feel like there's a lotof, there's a lot of um, just a
lot of stories, I don't know ifstory's the right word, but
around the word addiction as faras like, once you're an addict,
you're always an addict, youknow?
And it's kinda, and I think thatcan be like, I don't know, I
think for some people maybethat's helpful for them when
they're really trying to get, beconsistent, to get out of like
a, a drug habit or a drugaddiction or something, maybe.

(42:18):
But I, I kind of don't like iteither, where I'm like, I don't
think that's helpful.
I don't, I don't think that,that, that's like giving your
power to the, you know, it'slike I can't do anything about
this.
I'm, I'm an addict.
Yeah.
It's like, wow, that's reallydisempowering.

Kyson (42:36):
Oh, I totally agree.
I gotta be careful not to gettoo fired up about that one.
'cause I, holy cow.
Because like, on, on the list oftop three things that I remember
from being from like, here arethe teachings about pornography
and sex from my childhood.
It's the adultery and murder,it's the psychopaths use porn.
And seriously, the third one ishearing the 12 step guy come in

(43:00):
to the men only, right?
And say, oh, pornography thisand that.
And then once an addict, alwaysan addict.
Like that's the teaching that Itook in.
So like, think of the story youpiece together, like close to
murder psychopaths are kind oflike me, I guess.
And then like, I will always bean addict, so the rest of my
life is gonna suck, which Ithink turns to this thing of

(43:20):
like, I'm never gonna get truerelief, and so I might as well
indulge a little or I'm nevergonna be happy.
Like that's really what it turnsinto.
Mm-hmm.
It's like if I'm always gonna bean addict that's not happy, I
might as well get a little pornhere and there, or a little drug
or a little.
So yeah, I don't think that ishelping anybody.
The other one that I'll say thatI.
Really dislike is from the, oh,this is kind of intense, but

(43:44):
it's from the 12 step program.
Deep breath.
'cause like I'm not supposed tocriticize that, whatever.
Even in, even in like thechurch's 12 step, the step one
is to admit that you arepowerless outside of yourself.
And I know there's a whole, likeI do believe God is powerful,
but I think God has empowered usfrom the beginning.
Like to admit that you'repowerless to me is like one of

(44:08):
the grossest, it's like one,well, it's one of the grossest
things to, to encourage peopleto believe because I actually
think that is the root of theissue.
The one of the core, most coreroot issues is that my guys
believe that they're powerless.
And so they're turning to falsetypes of power, which is lust,
right?

(44:28):
That's back to this definitionof like, lust is taking false
power or taking power in falseways.
And they wouldn't do that ifthey saw who they truly were,
which is like a powerful andempowered child of God, an
empowered being.
God has given anyway, God'sgiven us like agency and
spiritual gifts and the power ofawareness and a million powers.

(44:50):
There's no way we're powerless.
So that idea just makes me sick.

Kristen (44:54):
Yeah, that's so interesting.
'cause I've, I, I don't know,like tons about 12 Step.
I know a little bit.
I have some friends who do it,but I have heard that, like
that's one of the, the firstthing I.
And I was thinking like, I waslike, okay.
Yeah.
Like you have to kind of behumble and admit that like God's
in charge.
But I totally see what you'resaying.

(45:17):
Like it's like, but then yeah,it kind of can turn us into
victims still.
Like, yeah, if you don't see whoyou really are, I think that's a
huge problem for people wherethey don't see their true
identity, like their mostdivine, like higher self
identity.
And that's really how do youimprove if you can't see that?

Kyson (45:39):
Yeah.
Can you imagine, I think justeven taking the exact words you
just said, I think it would havea massive impact just changing
the first step one to what youjust said, that like, God is in
charge and I'm practicinghumility.
And then also I love, I actuallylove your phrase of like, I
don't, I don't yet see my trueidentity.
And I admit that like, oh dude,can you feel the difference in

(45:59):
that?
Yeah.
that yeah.
Of like, I am struggling and Idon't yet see my true identity.
I'll turn to God for help.
That is an entirely differentprinciple than I am powerless
and I cannot do anything in a,in and of myself.
Like, oh my gosh, I got thechills from,

Kristen (2) (46:15):
I did too.
It's like, oh wow.
It's shifted

Kyson (46:16):
way.
It's so cool.
Yeah.

Kristen (2) (46:18):
Yeah.

Kyson (46:19):
So yeah, I've got, I've got a few issues with that.
I think I'm an, I understandtoo, I think the church has
tried to adapt the original 12step, which says the same thing.
So you can't just go, cha,maybe, maybe you can't just go
changing step one.
I don't really know.
But yeah, I've definitely, Idefinitely take a little issue
with that one.

Kristen (46:36):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And like, you know, 12 step is,I think it's people need it and
it's great and I'm not, we'renot bashing it, but I mean, it's
the wording, I don't know.
But yeah, the wording on stepone.
Yeah.
It's like there are things,yeah, it's like this isn't a
perfect system, I guess, butanyway.
But yeah, I think that's.
Ah,

Kyson (46:54):
yeah.

Kristen (46:54):
Good, good

Kyson (46:55):
stuff.
And, and may maybe, maybe tolike sum that thought up too.
I think what we're saying islike, let's pay attention to the
way we're talking and teachingbecause you have, you know,
you've got adults who have moreperspective trying to teach
children.
And children are already cl youknow, a lot of these kids are
getting taught about pornographyafter they've already used it,
you know, after they've alreadyfallen in.

(47:15):
And so you, these kids have acloudy mind, you know, like, I'm
clouded and freaked out andfilled with shame.
And so they're gonna latch ontothose faults teachings, you
know, if they're said in waysthat have shame with them, they
latch onto that stuff of like,oh crap, that's proof that I'm
terrible.
So I think we just gotta be alot more careful about the words
we choose.

(47:36):
We gotta, no, I'll stop at that.
We gotta be careful with the waywe teach stuff.

Kristen (47:41):
100%.
Yeah.
Kind of circling back to likethe role shame plays and so do
you feel like there are otherthings that keep people stuck
more than just, I mean, there'sobviously like our beliefs that
we just talked about

Audio Only - All Partic (47:55):
mm-hmm.
About

Kristen (47:56):
ourselves and then there's shame.
Are there any other things thatyou notice with pe the people
you work with where they're,they're stuck in, in a cycle or
they're disempowered.

Kyson (48:09):
Yeah.
Like, I'm thinking like, wow,why does that question feel so
hard?
It feels like, I just wanna tellyou everything I've ever known.
So it's like, okay, let me tryto narrow, I'm not gonna answer
it that way.
Yeah.
Okay.
Like other kind of like othercommon patterns.

Kristen (48:24):
Yeah.
Is that okay to say it that

Kyson (48:26):
way?
Well, or things that help keep'em real stuck.
Like

Kristen (48:28):
probably things that keep them really stuck, but I do
wanna talk about patterns.
Yeah.

Kyson (48:34):
Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Too many things to talk

Kristen (48:36):
about.

Kyson (48:37):
No, it's, it's great.
I think in some ways that's asimilar question, but I, I like
your pointed, like Okay.
Things that keep'em stuck.
The other one.
Yeah, go ahead.

Kristen (48:46):
Because I guess I'm thinking of people, I, I guess
I, I'm considering people whoare listening to this, who feel
very stuck right now.
And I wanna help them identifysome things and kind of help
them realize like, oh, this isnormal, or this is something you
can resolve.
If that makes sense.

Kyson (49:02):
It does.
Yeah.
Let me like, take a deep breathand just try to feel which one
of the things yeah.
I'll share this thought that I,I think, okay.
I think that one of the othercore things that keeps people
stuck is the attitude that man,there's a lot of ways to say

(49:26):
this, basically like, believingyou have to earn what you
receive.
And there's a whole bunch oflike surrounding pattern habits
right here where it's like, ifyou're not sure, if you feel
like you have to earn thingshere would be like the signs
that you do or the si signs thatyou believe you have to earn.
Everything you receive would bethat you like compare yourself

(49:48):
to others a lot.
There's a lot of like scorekeeping.
There's usually a feeling oflike, I'm either above or below
other people.
I mean, oh, like I'm better thanthat person, but I'm worse than
that person.
You know, I'll never be as goodas them.
Or someday.
But I'm definitely better thanlike those people who believe
this, you know, on the otherside of the political spectrum
or whatever.
And another thing I see a lotwith that is like, especially

(50:10):
I'll talk about Christianpattern, if that's okay, is
there's kind of this idea oflike, a lot of people feel,
they'll say like, oh, of courseI believe in God, or I believe
in Jesus.
I believe he can help me.
I believe he helps other people,but it's like I, I, I'm afraid
he won't help me until I fixmyself to a certain degree.

(50:31):
And so there's almost this likesus the help is like suspended
above them.
Like I know it's right up there.
I just, I'm not ready for ityet.
'cause I haven't like done thisand done that and stopped, you
know, making this mistake.
And so one of the, you know, ifthat's something, if someone's
listening and you suspect youthink you might, I.

(50:52):
Treat yourself that way, thatlike, yeah, I, I can receive
help like later after I fixmyself.
One of my favorite verses ofscripture is in, I'm gonna look
this up real quick.
Second, Nephi 26, 25.
I believe sometimes I get thenumber backwards.
Let's see, 26, 25.

(51:14):
Okay, here it is.
A lot of people might recognizethis scripture, but it says,
behold talking about God, death,he cry unto any saying, depart
from me.
Like, does he say, go away.
Behold I say unto you, nay, buthe sayeth come unto me all ye
ends of the earth.
And this is the part I wannaactually focus on at the end.
It says so come into me all endsof the earth, buy milk and

(51:36):
honey, whatever that meanssymbolically.
And he says, buy it withoutmoney and without price.
And I think that's what I wouldinvite people to think about is
like, what would it mean to buyor to receive without money and
without price, without having topay for it?
Because I think that's actuallythe situation we're in is that

(51:57):
for those that believe in, inJesus, right, like Jesus has
paid for it, God has provided,you know, or your higher power
has provided a whole earthexperience here, it's already
paid for, but if you're notreceiving it.
Then you can't receive it.
You know, it's like kind, I'mlike being a little bit whatever
there, but like if you, if youaren't willing to receive the
healing, then the healing cannotforce itself on you.

(52:20):
And so I, I, I would invitepeople to practice.
Like, if you feel stuck inpornography, I'd say there's a
hundred percent chance you'retrying to earn everything.
Oh.
Like, I don't want that until Iearn it.
I don't want love until I earnit.
I don't want connection orapproval or validation until I
earn it.
I don't want God's miraclesuntil I earn them.
And, you know, that takes sometime to unravel.

(52:41):
I still feel, I still feel bitsof that pop up sometimes.
I'm like, God, I don't deservethat, whatever.
But I'm actively practicing justliterally like opening my arms
and saying, cool, yes, I willreceive the healing that's
available to me.
I'll receive the love from mywife that's available to me.
And what's crazy is, as I've,'cause I used to be in a real

(53:01):
mentality of like, oh, I'vegotta do more and earn more so
that my wife will love me.
Turns out as I chilled out andlike let go of some of those
fears.
What I found is a wife thatloves me a lot already, even
when I make mistakes and dothings that are stupid or
whatever.
And so, yeah, no.
Does that see, does that makesense?
I think that's the way to getout.
Yeah.
Being stuck is to just startreceiving good things.

Kristen (53:24):
Yeah.
Allow yourself to receive Yeah.
Everything you're saying.
I'm like, this is wor it'sworthiness.
Right?
Like, it's like feeling likeyou're worthy.
And I think that's a big.
One of those words, you know, weget hung up on.
Yes.
But yeah.

Kyson (53:44):
Yeah.
I'm not sure why, but I, I'venoticed the more I've healed,
the less I think about that wordworthiness.
Yeah.
The less I use the word

Kristen (53:53):
I think in terms of worthiness.
Yeah.

Kyson (53:55):
Yeah.
Like obviously I'm down forlike, I'm trying to think of
alternative words that feelgood.
I'm down for like righteousness.
I'm down for seeking truth inGod and Christ, and humility
virtue I'm down for all of that.
Yeah.
But the word worthy has gotten,it's like a little package that
we've stuffed a lot of stuff inthere that isn't miss isn't

(54:16):
necessarily true, I think.

Kristen (54:19):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I like that.
You, I don't, I don't think Ialways associate receiving, even
though it's very obvious whenyou say it out loud, but I don't
always think of like, oh, justallow yourself to receive.
I didn't, I don't always thinkabout like, worthiness is
blocking that, where myperception around not being
worthy is blocking receiving.

Kyson (54:38):
Yeah.

Kristen (54:38):
It's very obvious when you say it, but I'm like, oh
yeah, that is, that is thething.

Kyson (54:44):
Yeah.

Kristen (54:44):
Absolutely.
But

Kyson (54:45):
yeah, that's super interesting.
It, another way to, or anotherthought that's right next to
this is that.
See, like, okay, for those thatmaybe aren't Christian is a cool
way to think of it.
And for those that are if youwere to like, rewind and ask me,
like, okay, what's a thing thatgets people stuck or keeps'em
stuck?
Here's an easier, simpler way tosay that whole thing is when

(55:08):
people are outsourcing foreverything.
So what I mean is likeoutsourcing to other people for
validation that they're good.
Like, oh, I, I won't feel gooduntil like my mom tells me I'm
good, or my wife tells me I'mgood, or society tells me I'm
good.
Outsourcing for like, what'syour definition of success,
right?
How much money, how much timeshould I spend working every

(55:28):
day?
How much suffering do I need todo every day to feel like a good
person, right?
So there's all this outsourcingand going like, what do they
think and what do they think andwhat do they think?
Outsourcing for love,outsourcing for feeling
appreciated, all that.
What it, because what it usuallyleads to is, oh, well I need to
go work hard then to receive it,right?
I need to work hard so thatthey'll give me the validation.

(55:51):
I think the truer way is like tointernalize and to go with God
and say, can you help me createappreciation within myself?
Can you help me create lovewithin myself?
Yeah.
Like instead of outsourcing,kind of bring it in and say, I'm
okay.
I'm okay to be where I'm atright now and just like start to

(56:11):
receive and to create thatvalidation within myself.
It's okay to appreciate myself.
It's crazy that, that, you know,a co a few years ago or
something that would've feltkinda like a scary thought.
Like, are you allowed to talkthat way?
But now I'm like, dude, ofcourse I appreciate myself.
I got a ton of awesome thingsand gifts and guess what?
Every single person I've evermet that I've been able to like,

(56:34):
get to know also is an amazingperson and has incredible things
to appreciate.
And I think we're pretty stuckin going the opposite way.
Like, we're pretty stuck in thisthought of like, oh, we're not
worthy, we're not good enough.
We're a bunch of losers, we'resinners, we're terrible.
Mm-hmm.
It's like, well that's one wayto spin it if you want.
But yeah, I don't, I don't seeJesus going, Hey everyone, make

(56:56):
sure you remind yourselves oftenthat you are sinners.
I see him saying the opposite.
He says, no, you not the er,gods sc you know, one of the
scariest scriptures in thewhole, in, in any anywhere is
him saying that with noexplanation.
You know?

Kristen (57:12):
Yeah.
That's powerful though.
Like,'cause we don't think thatway.
So it's important to, yeah.
Consider that.

Audio Only - All Particip (57:22):
Yeah.

Kristen (57:22):
But yeah.
What are some of the, let's talkabout some patterns you notice
whenever your, like typicalpatterns with these clients
you're working with.
I know we've talked about a few,I don't know if we covered all
of them, but I wanna make surewe cover that.
'cause that was something we hadchatted about that I thought was
really interesting.

Kyson (57:41):
Yeah, I think we've covered, I think the core ones
are the ones that will get youunstuck.
Right.
Let me think what otherpatterns.
Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.
There's definitely yeah.
Okay.
I guess there'd be patterns in,I'll, I'll just kind of review
'em real quick.
'cause I, I think they'resimilar, but like, showing up in
relationships as like, I'vegotta earn everything.

(58:04):
Another way to say that would belike, feeling like you're in
debt to everybody constantly.
Oh, I owe, you know, I've gottakeep track of how much they've
given me so I can make sure Igive just as much or more.
Fear of vulnerability.
Having a really hard time justsharing.
Honestly, there's a lot.
So, you know, there's the ideathat you're, you're lying and
holding.

(58:24):
I don't know why I did airquotes.
There's the idea that you'relying and doing, you know,
you're lying about pornography,right?
I'm hiding this from everyone.
Most, most people have convincedthemselves that porn is the big
thing.
They're hiding.
But I think that they're almostalways hiding way more than
porn.
They're hiding their, theiridentity, their, you know, their
thoughts, their feelings theiropinions, right?

(58:46):
Like when their, when their wifesays, Hey, you know, can you do
this?
Or do you want to go help withthis?
Instead of saying, no, I don't,can we find a way to do this
that works for both of us?
They say, yeah, I'll do it.
And then they fill up withresentment, right?
So there's this like, hiding ofwhat you really think.
Struggling with boundaries, notknowing how to enforce a

(59:07):
boundary.
They'll either go to like superweak boundaries, like, I ha you
know, people can just step allover'em and then they'll
pendulum swing to like, angryoutbursts and just like, ah, you
know, trying to hurt people,punishing them for hurting them.
But not knowing how to standconfident in a boundary.
Trying to think what else peoplepleasing.
I said, yeah, a lot of these,honestly, a lot of them are

(59:32):
almost, I see them as branchesoff of the same route, right?
It's like, I feel powerless, soI, people please, I feel
powerless.
So I look for fake ways to getmy desires.
There's a lot of like selfpunishment, I would say.
I need to be, oh, like everysingle dude, for real.
You could say, oh, you strugglewith porn.
And then you could be like, sodo you feel like you're hard on

(59:55):
yourself?
Like, oh yeah.
Harder than myself, than anybodyelse.
Like that's just classic.
And I know a lot of people whodon't struggle with porn also do
that.
But like, what's interesting is,I think we talked about this
before, but like when I workwith people about 90% of the
conversation is about thisstuff.
It's not about porn.
It's about like, how do you feelabout yourself relationships,

(01:00:17):
you know, are you beatingyourself up all the time?
Like, we talk about that stuffand interestingly, the porn
problem goes away.
So, yeah.

Kristen (01:00:26):
Yeah.
I think that's, hopefully thatis something like, that's
something we just don't thinkabout, you know, in relation to,
to porn.
And so I'm hoping that'll kindof help people just see like, oh
yeah, there, there are thingshere that I can work through
that aren't, that aren't thatscary.

(01:00:47):
But I'm curious.
I don't know.
Oh, so go ahead.
I was just gonna

Kyson (01:00:51):
tag onto that really lightly.
Yeah.
One of my clients, one of thecoolest things I've ever heard,
we were like a couple monthsinto working together and he
said, this is the most fun I'veever had.
And I was like, what are youtalking about?
He's like, oh, just getting tolike, learn about myself and ask
new questions and realize thatI'm not like a broken thing.
I'm not a man that's broken andjust can't stop using porn.

(01:01:11):
I'm a dude with like some partsof me that hurt really bad and
as we resolve it, he's likegetting to feel more joy, learn
about himself, you know,understand himself, understand
his wife, understand others.
So I honestly think it's abeautiful journey from day one.
If you're looking at the roots,if you start from a place of
shame, it's gonna hurt the wholeway through.

(01:01:33):
And you might get out, you mightget healed, I dunno.
But in my experience, it can bea joyful journey from like right
now.
Like if you, you know, if youmessed up and relapsed or
whatever word you, like, youlooked at porn last night, you
know, that's hard.
It's not a fun feeling.
But like, kind of like shake itoff and start to ask yourself
some hard questions.

(01:01:54):
You can find joy right there.
Find someone that you trust andtalk to'em, or, you know, come
talk to me and I'll ask you somedeep questions, but with a ton
of compassion and it can bejoyful, like, for real right
now.
So

Kristen (01:02:07):
that's so empowering and yeah, I feel like people
don't experience that with this.
So I love, I just love whatyou're doing.
But I'm curious.
I don't you, I'm guessing youdon't talk to the spouses or the
partners of your clients.
You're probably not gettingtheir feedback,

Audio Only - All Participan (01:02:25):
but sometimes,

Kristen (01:02:26):
sometimes, yeah.
I'm curious how, what, what the,what the women or the wives or
whoever, you know, are sayingabout how their relationship
dynamics are shifting as you'reworking with these guys and
they're seeing progress andthey're changing because I think
that's from the, from thepartner's perspective, that's so

(01:02:49):
hard.
You're kind of dealing with alot of the, at least like women
I've talked to in my ownexperience, dating people you
know, you often feel like yourboundaries are not respected or
you kind of feel like an objector they're being selfish or
they're not seeing you fully.
And that's really hard.
And I'm just curious if, if thatalso is shifting as I would

(01:03:14):
assume it would, at leastsomewhat.
But I'm curious if the, thepartners seeing that,

Kyson (01:03:19):
you know?
Yeah, I think, I mean, itdepends on it for sure.
Depends on each couple.

Audio Only - All Particip (01:03:24):
Yeah.

Kyson (01:03:24):
Oh man, I had so many thoughts while you're talking.
'cause I, I, I do think, like Isaid, there needs to be room for
both partners to feel through.
You know, like I'll have someclients, like I said, who their
wife is like, all right, let'swork together.
Let's like build some closeness.
That's amazing when that canhappen.
And then there's also clientswho are like, wow, I'm feeling
so hurt right now.

(01:03:44):
You know, I can't believe youwould be looking at porn without
telling me all these years.
And that's also an o that's anokay response.
That's a normal response to likethe, you know, what's going on.
And so I think creating spacefor both of them to kind of feel
through that.
The ultimate goal is to cometogether and start to create
again together.
I think, let's see.
I was gonna go into like aperspective, but I want to

(01:04:06):
answer your question of like,how do they actually see the
shift?
I would say that for the couplesthat are willing to go here, I
see an increase of likevulnerability.
I.
Accountability.
Like the, the three principles Ireally hit a lot are like being
vulnerable, accountable, andthen abundant.

(01:04:27):
Like trusting that you cancreate what you want.
So like a way to, a way I wouldillustrate that is a lot of
couples before, even before porncame out and before they, they
knew that's what they weredealing with.
The dynamic typically has a lotof expectation on it.
So a husband, you know, husbandexpects, expects this of the
wife, and the wife is like, wellnow I expect this of you.

(01:04:49):
Can you feel the like debtexchange, right?
You're in debt to me so thatyou'll do the thing I need you
to do and we're gonna toss thatdebt around.
So again, this is the oldpattern.
Before the, the healing, there'sa lot of need, need language.
I need you to do this, I needyou to support me, I need you to
validate me.
And it's very bitter andresentful.
And that would be from bothparties, right?

(01:05:09):
I'm not saying just the why.
Mm-hmm.
Whereas when people choose toheal and shift into a better
way, it turns more to like, I'mtrying to think if I can, if
this illustrates it quickly,this is, it's a pretty deep
concept or like complex concept,but like the energy or the tone
on the conversation shifts tolike, Hey would it, would it be

(01:05:32):
a win for you to do this?
Or I would, I would love toconnect in this way.
Is that a win for you?
Then wife is like, well, no,that's not quite a win for me
today, but I would love toconnect in this way.
How do you feel about that?
And then he, you know, then heis like, oh, sweet.
Let's totally connect that way.
Can you feel how there's,there's an honest, it's like all

(01:05:53):
your cards are out on the tableinstead of like holding your
cards and trying to get yourspouse to do what you need them
to do, what you think you needthem to do.
It's like true honesty wherelike both of us are being honest
about how they, how we feel,what we desire, but having a
trust that I, I'm like getting alittle in the weeds here, but
like.

(01:06:13):
Basically trusting that I cancreate a life that I love and I
don't need you to like fix thething I'm scared of As a spouse,
you don't need my spouse to likerescue me from my fear about
what?
And, and honestly, I think areally poignant place where this
would show up would be like withsex, where the husband's like,
well, I need sex.
And that's, that's the oldconversation is I need to have

(01:06:35):
sex or, because I've got so muchsex drive.
And she's like, well, I'm not inthe mood.
Do you want me to just.
Sacrifice myself, right?
There's like the debt exchangewhere it would shift to like
essentially this question oflike, okay, I, I am feeling in
the mood.
Are you, you know, would, areyou feeling in the mood?
Would you be down to connect inthat way?
And then she's like, no, I'mnot.
But you know, is there a placewhere we can build a bridge of

(01:06:57):
desire of like, I would love todo this.
Would you love to do that?
And see them connect instead ofbuilding connection out of like,
I'm gonna hurt if you don't.
I'm gonna feel, you know, I'mgonna feel uncomfortable if you
don't give me what I need.
I'm gonna be mad at you.
Or, you know, I've been workingso hard all day, I can't
believe, you know, and then thewife's like, well, I've been

(01:07:17):
working with the kids all day.
I just wanna relax.
Like, there's all these classicconversations that if you look
at underneath, you'll find thatit's really tossing around like
a debt thing.
Like, I've suffered this muchdebt and you need to suffer now.
Or like, what am I gonna getwhat I want and what I deserve?
And instead we shift out of thatto like, I'll be vulnerable and

(01:07:38):
say, I'm super in the moodtoday, you know, to my spouse.
Like, I'm super in the mood.
If you're not, that's okay.
I'm confident that I can figureit out.
You know, or like there, there'skind of this like empowered
version of trying to create arelationship versus I feel weak.
I need you to fix me.
Does that, was that too complexof a way to answer that?

Kristen (01:07:59):
No, I think that made a lot of sense.
And what I'm seeing is peopleare able to work more as an
actual team and like friendswhere they're Oh.

Kyson (01:08:08):
Like equals That's what it

Kristen (01:08:09):
sounds like.
Yeah, yeah,

Kyson (01:08:11):
yeah.
Instead of,'cause a lot of a

Kristen (01:08:13):
martyr, martyr manipulation tactics.
Yeah.
Situation.

Kyson (01:08:19):
Yeah.
Hero, victim, villain.
That's one of the things I talkabout so much.
I just had this thought about,oh, like me and my wife, I'm
thinking like several years backlooking at the pattern, it would
be like, and maybe a lot ofpeople can relate to this, but I
would see this like, okay, withour spiritual life, with like
church, I'm the better one.

(01:08:39):
'cause I'm like, oh, we gotta gobe on time to church.
You know, we gotta make sure wepray and read our scriptures.
So I would put myself above, andthen like with money, she would
put herself like, oh no, she'smore being more responsible with
money.
Right?
And so we'd flip flop to like,well no, I'm, I'm above you in
this and so you need to like,help me this way.
And she'd be like, well, I'mabove you over here.
And so it's like you said, weturn into it, we practice

(01:09:02):
becoming a team, working asactual friends that respect each
other and honor, you know, it'slike I, that that's another huge
shift that people would see intheir husband is like.
The, the energy behind what he'ssaying, or hopefully the actual
words would be like, oh, I'dnever want you to say yes to
something that doesn't feel likea win to you.
But what's interesting is that alot of those situations, it's,

(01:09:27):
it's really hard for the spouse,for the wife to also be okay
with their husband saying no toother things.
Right.
Hey, can you help me with this?
If your husband isn't allowed tosay no, then he is not really
saying yes.
And it's the same, it's the samething with sex.
Mm-hmm.
If your wife isn't allowed tosay no, then she's not really
saying yes.
You know?
So you gotta give people thefreedom to, like, I, I don't

(01:09:48):
want you to say yes'cause I wantyou to say yes.
I want to know where are you at?
Does this sound fun to you?
Does this, you know, and it,it's really cool'cause in, in
these different scenarios, itbrings opportunity for difficult
conversation that turns to likereal connection on, on
something.
Even as simple as like, doingthe dishes.

(01:10:10):
You know, I, I think I like, I'mflashing back to like, I used to
have so much resentment'cause mywife would be like, Hey, can you
do the dishes?
And I'd be like, like, I'd sayyes, but then I'd be like, oh,
stupid dishes.
My wife's always making me, youknow, tell me what to do.
It's like, dude, you've neversaid no.
I'd never said no.
I had just said yes and sat inthe resentment.

(01:10:31):
So what's cool as an example.
Instead of just saying yes, Ican say I don't really wanna do
'em.
You know, I'd be down to do'emlike later tonight.
Or like you start to look forcreative solutions or like, Hey,
do you wanna do'em with me?
Or like, Hey, I, you know, she'swith the kids, whatever.
But you could almost be like,Hey, do you wanna like listen to
an audio book together while Ido the dishes?

(01:10:53):
Or do you wanna come have aconversation and play 20
questions with me while I do it?
And can you see how there'slike, instead of this tossing
around of debt, it's replacedwith a trust that I can create a
situation I love, which is like,oh, I would actually love doing
the dishes if we were talking.
Are you down to do that?
And so you get creative insteadof like punishing.

Kristen (2) (01:11:14):
Yeah.

Kyson (01:11:15):
So, yeah, it's, it's so fun to see that.
And, you know, it's not gonna bea flip of a switch.
We're like, oh, boom.
I mean, for most couples,there's gonna be some really
hard conversations.
And the hardest part is gonna bejust opening your mouth and
actually saying what's in yourheart in an accountable way.
But after that it's like, it'sso beautiful.

(01:11:37):
It's awesome.

Kristen (2) (01:11:39):
Oh, that's awesome.

Kristen (01:11:40):
Yeah.
And I think what you were sayingabout when the energy changes
the way you're speaking to eachother and it kind of sh I feel
like that's key.
Like, like the, I don't want youto say yes if you don't wanna
say yes and like actuallymeaning it, that's mm-hmm.
That's where I feel like that'sthe, the key thing.

Kyson (01:12:02):
It's so key.
Yeah.
Yeah.
And you know, right there too,like you can, because I, I love
the three principle idea here tosay it again.
It's to be vulnerable,accountable, and abundant.
So there's this cool, like, Idon't want you to say no, and if
you, or you know, I don't wantyou to say yes unless that's
what you really want.

(01:12:24):
And then you can even be morevulnerable and say like, okay,
part of me does want you to sayyes, but I'm gonna let go of
that.
Right?
That's like a, it's like areally accountable version of
being vulnerable.
Because some people hearvulnerable and they're like, oh,
you want me to like be weak?
I'm like, no, dude.
I want you to be confidentlyvulnerable where you're like,
abundant, you're accountable,and you're vulnerable is one of

(01:12:46):
the most powerful combinationswhere I can tell my wife like,
Hey, you know, I'll be honest,you know, if when you said no,
like I am experiencing someemotions about that, you know,
I'm feeling kind of, lonely, butit's not your fault.
It's just my emotion.
And I want to like, thank youfor letting me voice it.

(01:13:06):
Would you be down to talk about,you know, something?
Do you, do you wanna talk?
Do you wanna like, can I tellyou more about what I'm feeling?
Or would that be a win for you?
There's this way of like.
I, I think it's related to theoutsourcing thing, right?
Like, I'm not outsourcinganything to her.
I don't need her to fix the wayI feel.
I'm like, I am down to stand inmy own space and feel all of it.

(01:13:27):
Like, holy cow, I'm feeling somuch rage about whatever the
kids are misbehaving, but that'smy rage.
It's me and I, you know, wouldyou be down to talk about it?
You know, whatever.
Like, it's this really cool mixof, of being vulnerable, like
humble, and then also superaccountable.
And honestly, I don't, I thinkyou become unstoppable.

(01:13:50):
And this applies to anything,not just pornography.
This applies to like anything.
If you can be vulnerable,accountable, and abundant, like
nothing can stop you.
Yeah.
And if you can observe, likethat's one of my biggest cues
right now is like, oh, okay, I'mnot being vulnerable.
I'm hiding.
That's a sign for me topractice.
You know?

(01:14:10):
Like I try to track one, am Ibeing not vulnerable when I,
when am I being not accountable?
When am I blaming other people?
When am I being scarce insteadof abundant?
And just trying to practicethose three, it's like it'll
change your whole life.

Kristen (01:14:24):
Yeah.
You know, I'm like taking notes.
Like, this is, this is goodstuff.

Kyson (01:14:30):
Awesome.

Kristen (01:14:31):
I wanna talk about masculinity.

Kyson (01:14:34):
Nice.
I almost bridged us over there.
Just barely.

Kristen (01:14:37):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, as you were talking, I waslike, oh yeah, healthy
masculine, like.
Let's talk'cause that'ssomething you cover a lot in
your coaching.
Correct.
So I feel like there's a lot ofum, it's kind of a popular thing
right now, a little bit in somecircles and sometimes I think
the, the masculine gets, there'skind of some parading it as

(01:15:04):
just, just alpha male.
A little bit, and I, I think, Idon't know, tell me your
thoughts, but I feel like it'sso much more than that and it's
not, that's not really what,it's kind of missing the mark.

Kyson (01:15:17):
Yeah, I do too.
I, I mean, honestly, a lot ofthe thoughts we were just
talking about, I love this like,opposite, right?
There's this healthy opposite oflike, a tender father, you know,
that tenderness of a fatherthat's like, I love my kids.
And then also like the warrioron the other side that's like,
and I, I will protect truth.
Mm-hmm.
So there's these opposites.

(01:15:38):
Same with like being vulnerable.
It's like, it's more of a ittender thing, but with the like,
powerful accountability is like,and boom, I can create, you
know, like these are my emotionsand I'm willing to talk about
them.
I, I love the question just tolike, break through one of the
classic cliche things thatpeople say about men.
You know, or about emotions.

(01:15:58):
Men will be like, oh, emotionsare so weak.
You know, masculinity iswhatever.
I think here's a cool question.
Which one sounds more powerful?
Someone who's afraid to say whatthey're actually feeling, or
someone who's willing to saywhat they're feeling and face
it.
I think that might encompassmasculinity right there.
This is what I think and feeland I will face it and be

(01:16:19):
accountable for it.
Yeah.
So yeah, I mean, that's onelittle anecdote.
I guess gen, generally speakingmore like philosophical.
I think masculine is about, I.
Structure, creating structureand space for the feminine.
It's, you know, it's, it's verydirect.
I mean, since we're talkingabout sex and pornography and

(01:16:40):
stuff, I think honestly a reallycool metaphor for masculinity to
think about.
Like the genitals, like thepenis is pointed and, and direct
and it moves through, right?
You know, sorry for those whoare like, oh, that's a little
too direct, but masculinity isdirect and pointed and, and like
creative.
Let's go create this where thefeminine is more receiving and

(01:17:02):
open.
The feminine can be about likeall the possibilities of
creation, where the masculine isabout the pointed, like, let's
choose this thing and create ittogether.
Yeah, I dunno, thoughts on thatfrom you?
That's about where I would go.
Yeah.

Kristen (01:17:17):
Yeah.
I feel like I know a little bitmore about the feminine and so,
but I love how they, they dojust really compliment each
other.
I feel like when you can getinto a nice flow where you're
really kind feeling into thosetraits, it, it kind, it kind of
puts you naturally in like agood, a good dynamic if it's

(01:17:39):
healthy, you know?

Kyson (01:17:41):
Yeah.

Kristen (01:17:42):
Some of the shifts you were talking about that men make
around being able to speak upand being able to be confident
and just the three things youmentioned.

Kristen (2) (01:17:50):
Just vulnerable, accountable when were just,

Kristen (01:17:52):
yeah.
I feel like that even though alot of those feel like feminine
traits in a way, some of themdo, it's, it's kind of like
there's, there's like amasculine way you're approaching
it, you know, with like, I feellike vulnerability is a very
more of a feminine trait.
And then interestingaccountability feels more
masculine maybe.
I don't know.

Kyson (01:18:13):
Well, what, what if you split each of those down the
middle?
So youve got a feminine andmasculine side of being
vulnerable.

Yeah.
Where

Kyson (01:18:19):
even as an example, the masculine would be like, I will,
I'm gonna actively create spacefor vulnerability right here.
Like think of like, I'm gonnatoss up the framework of a house
so we have a space to bevulnerable and protected.
And not just for you, but for meas well.
Or you know, like, not just forme, but for you as well.
Like, almost like, it brings upthe protector side of like, wait

(01:18:43):
a second, something's off righthere.
Can you feel how weird thisconversation just got?
Like, if there's tension, youare like, can you feel how we
just, like, what's, what's thatfeeling?
I felt the power dynamic shift.
Let's create a space right nowto be vulnerable.
Would you be down to do that?
And can you feel the masculinein that sense?
Yeah.
Whereas the femininevulnerability is, I'm like, I

(01:19:03):
don't know how to explain thatside.
I'm sure it's more like, what isit?
Like, I don't know.
Maybe I have thoughts on that.

Kristen (01:19:09):
I mean, I'm no expert.
I just kind of dabble in thisstuff.
Right.
But same.
Yeah.
But I feel like it's more justlike open-ended, more kinda
inviting.

Audio Only - All Partic (01:19:19):
Mm-hmm.

Kristen (01:19:20):
Sharing and inviting and kind of.
Allowing the masculine to holdthat space,

Kyson (01:19:27):
yeah, I like that.
I think it, I think these ideasare a little bit nebulous on
purpose.
Know they are.
It's like, I think it's, it'sjust a journey.

Kristen (2) (01:19:35):
Mm-hmm.

Kyson (01:19:36):
Another thought that popped up is like, well, can I
go to a semi new thought aboutmasculinity or Yeah,

Kristen (2) (01:19:42):
yeah.

Kyson (01:19:43):
Because yeah, while you were talking, I was thinking
about like the little boydynamic.
A lot of men who struggle withporn are in little boy energy.
Like, oh, my mom is telling mewhat to do.
That's why they get into thatwith their wife.
It's just like, oh, I have to dowhat she says, or she'll be
disappointed in me.
I mean, holy cow.
That's in, it's like everyrelationship I've worked with,

(01:20:07):
it's like there's at least someof that, if not like, a mountain
of it.
And the thing to realize is thatI guess both if that dynamic is
truly going on then both are inan kind of an unhealthy version
of masculine and feminine,right?
The, if the feminine is like mombeing in mom mode, and the, the
boy, you know, the masculine isa little boy mode.

(01:20:29):
You've got this weird dynamic.
Like it really breaks the, theconnection and intimacy.
So I think, you know, one ofyou, one of you or both of you,
who's gonna have to shiftbasically.
He might as well be if, ifyou're aware of it, then shift,
you know, for as far as like,whose fault is it?
There's gonna be a lot of that.
Like, oh, she treats me this wayand I'll be like, dude, no,

(01:20:50):
you're, let's figure out yourside first.
Get all the way healed up.
And then if your wife has stillgot some stuff, then we'll try
and support her.
But like, you gotta beaccountable.
And I would say the same to the,to the wife, which is a little
scary.
'Cause you know, a lot of timesit feels like, oh, this whole
issue is just'cause my husbandis looking at porn, he's the

(01:21:12):
problem and I've got nothing tochange.
And honestly, if you wanna dothat, it's okay.
He'll, he can change.
But I think the more joyfulthing is gonna be to help the,
for both spouses to step into anew way of interacting.
Again, I'm kind of out in theweeds here, but I think it's so
powerful to help men step intolike their true masculine, to

(01:21:34):
let go of, or even even to justobserve if you get really honest
with yourself and look for like,when do I feel like a little
boy?
That, that feeling will come upand just start to notice like
what situations bring that upand then let's start to face,
like why, why are you going intolittle boy mode in that
situation?
And then I think it's just apractice of figuring out a more

(01:21:56):
powerful way to go forward.

Kristen (01:22:01):
Yeah.
Is that kind of mainly how youbring that in with your clients?

Kyson (01:22:06):
Like helping them notice that,

Kristen (01:22:07):
like when you're talking about healthy
masculinity with'em.
Yeah.
Is it kind of like noticing thelittle boy, kind of seeing these
more like kind of healthymasculine traits that we want to
embody a little bit more?

Kyson (01:22:23):
Yeah.
It's interesting.
I haven't been asked that in along time, and I'm just
realizing like, oh, you know,I'm not, I don't say the word
masculinity very much.
Mm-hmm.
Unfortunately, I think it's gota little bit of a trigger on it
for guys.
Like one of the, I feel like itgets brought up as like, Hey,
I've got another thing youaren't doing right.
You know, and so I, I try to be,I think I'm trying to be careful

(01:22:45):
of that, like, so, we'll, Iwould use all the language we've
talked about today, but Iusually don't say like, Hey, are
you being masculine enough?
It's more like, Hey, let'screate, like, I'll try to give
them an example of how it couldfeel or I do a lot around
accountability, vulnerable,abundant, and practice that
dynamic.
I am, I'm honestly right nowconsidering I'm like, oh, I

(01:23:05):
wonder if it would be better forme to talk about it more.
But I do think there is a,there's a lot of trigger around
it.
So I'm, I'm kind of likethinking as I'm answering your
question here.

Kristen (01:23:16):
Well, I feel like people do get kind of hung up on
this is my role and that's yourrole.
And it can get a little bitlike.

Kyson (01:23:23):
Kind of hary.

Kristen (01:23:24):
Yeah.
That way.
So it's like, I feel like it'sgood to be aware or maybe, you
know, just the way you're likebringing it up in a roundabout
way.
Mm-hmm.
I don't know.
Yeah.
It's kind of like, how, howspecific do you get?
Right.

Kyson (01:23:37):
Because yeah, and I, I guess I would say I for sure
when I have clients who have,are like really towards the end
of their, not the end, but likethey're really healing up, then
it, it's not scary to talkabout.
It's like, oh, let's talkmasculinity directly now.
So I do that right now.
A lot of my clients are in astarting place, so it is sort of
like, it'd be like trying totalk about like hot air

(01:23:57):
balloons, like something theydon't quite have a grasp of in
some ways.
So yeah, I think we do like tryto sprinkle in the, the
principles and have'em start towrestle with that stuff.
Another thought that's righthere with this is when I, you
know, when I do teach masculineand feminine too, or like any of
these principles, I do think Idon't think there's a right way

(01:24:19):
for a guy to be masculine, ifthat makes sense.
Like.
You know, if I'm talking,because I think that also is one
of the, maybe this is why itfeels triggering.
One of the issues that a lot ofmen feel is there's this
outsourcing again, of like, whoI should be, I should be
something outside of me.
Whether it's, you know, like aguy that's cooler than me or

(01:24:41):
taller than me or gets moregirls than me.
Or even I think there can evenbe a version of this that's
like, oh, I need to be JesusChrist, but I'm not him.
Versus like, oh, what if I couldbe the highest version of me
with Jesus Christ?
You know, there's like adifference there.
So, I do think like masculineand femin, I can still be like

(01:25:01):
my highest masculine, but theremay, there's still gonna be
places where I bring in a fem alittle bit of the feminine flow,
right?
Like, no one's gonna be ahundred percent one way or the
other.
And I think we're, so maybethat's the other way I have
approached that is like, let'shelp you figure out the best
version of you.
One, one of the ways I've lovedfinding that, helping people

(01:25:21):
find that balance is humandesign.
Have you done human design?
Are you familiar?

Kristen (01:25:26):
I have, yeah.
I am familiar a little bit.
I don't think we've talked aboutit on the podcast at all.

Kyson (01:25:30):
Oh, nice.

Kristen (01:25:32):
But, but yeah.
It's, it's, I'm definitelyfamiliar.

Kyson (01:25:34):
It's crazy.
I mean, I'm not an expert.
I am in training right now,getting certified, but I, I
basically, anyone that's evenpossibly a tiny open to it, I'm
like, let's do it right now.
It's one of the most excitingways of learning, learning about
people that I've ever, everseen.
Tiny quick summary is, I saythis as a joke at the start,

(01:25:56):
like, oh, it's really stupid'cause it's based on your
birthday.
Super dumb.
Just, you know, what the heck?
And then right after that, it'salso like the most accurate
thing I've ever seen.
I've taken, you know, you, youcan spend 70 bucks to take like
the Gallup strengths test andthat'll get you really cool
results.
Well, all my Gallup strengthsresults are actually in my human
design for free.
You just look up, you know, lookit up with your birthday.

(01:26:18):
And I found the same resultsover there.
So one of the cool things aboutit though is it's really to help
you figure out like your, howyour designed, right?
So there will actually be someyou know, masculine and feminine
stuff that will show up in yourchart.
That's really fascinating.
So yeah, I, I, I think that'sbeen one of the coolest things
is to help people again, likeinstead of outsourcing to turn

(01:26:38):
inward and go, what am I meantto be?
What am I here to create?
How, what are my strengths?
Yeah, I find so many cool, likeall the guys I work with, it's
so fun to see'em light up whenthey realize like, oh, I do have
a strength underneath thisstruggle.
You know, there's beautifulgifts and strengths everywhere,
so.

Kristen (01:26:57):
No, that's cool.
I love that.
I feel like you bring a lot ofdifferent modalities and just
like wisdom in and I thinkthat's really cool.
Like

Kyson (01:27:07):
I try to be super prepared.
Yeah.
Because some people don't wannathink about stuff in certain
ways, you know?
Scary to think about it fromsome, from a perspective they'd
never considered.
And so try to have a lot oftools.

Kristen (2) (01:27:19):
Yeah, yeah.
No, that's great.

Kristen (01:27:22):
I wanted to jump into like, is there, how can men,
like, what can they do now toshift if they're in this place
They don't wanna be with pornor, you know, some habits.
What can they do?

Kyson (01:27:36):
Yeah, I have two thoughts.
Kind of cookin'.
Your question is like, what canmen do to sort of like start,

Kristen (01:27:44):
start shifting their shifting, you know, the way they
see themselves, whatever it is,you know, just kind of start
shifting toward more what theyare hoping for with their lives,
I guess.

Kyson (01:27:55):
Yeah.
I think it depends on whereyou're at.
I'll give one that's like asuper basic for those that are
like,'cause okay, where I wasback when my friend was like,
oh, are, do you experience likeshame?
Or she also, I think anotherfriend was like, you ever
considered, you might have likea savior complex.
And that was another one where Iwas like, what does that mean?
Like, turns out that's like mywhole life is trying to save

(01:28:17):
everybody.
I'd say if you're really, reallyearly in your process, I'd say
the very first step is you gottajust start practicing awareness.
Like just start to to observewhat you're thinking.
You, you have to look at it,start, look at what you're
thinking, look at what you'refeeling.
And just practice that.
'cause for some of the guys,it's like, they've never ever

(01:28:39):
done that.
It's all bad.
I'm not supposed to think thator feel that.
And then boom, crap, I looked atporn again.
Ah, this sucks.
I hate myself.
And then you just do it again.
I shouldn't think that, Ishouldn't feel that.
And boom, back into porn.
And so the tack, the tacticthey're trying is just like the
hold on tight white knuckle tillthey get to heaven or hell, I
don't know, it's kinda a weird,it, it doesn't work, but that's

(01:29:00):
what a lot of us try.
So instead like slow down, giveyourself some space to like
think about what you think andto feel about what you feel just
to observe.
If you feel like you're alreadykind of in that state.
I think, oh man, there's like,there's two thoughts.

(01:29:21):
I think I'll start with thetemptation.
This is something I call thetemptation equation.
So, the temptation equation iskind of this way of
understanding where everytemptation comes from.
And this is like temptation ofany kind.
So see how this feels to you.
Anyone that's listening, I thinkthat every temptation starts
with a good desire.

(01:29:43):
So that might soundcounterintuitive, but first you
start with a good desire plus afear that you can't have that
desire equals, or, you know,leads to temptation or like
loopholes or false versions ofthat desire.
So.
Classic example, like, oh, I, Iusually ask guys like, so have

(01:30:05):
you ever felt tempted to rob abank?
I'm like, no, definitely not.
Yeah, me neither.
For me, it's because I, I desiremoney, right?
To like, provide for my family,but I believe I can create that
money.
I haven't figured out how tocreate all the money I want, you
know, I'm still working on that,but I believe that I can
honestly go and create money inmy life.

(01:30:26):
I can get a job or create abusiness or whatever.
Therefore I'm not tempted, youknow, Satan's not putting in a
temptation for me to rob banksbecause it has nothing to do
with my desire, plus my fear.
And so the same thing applies topornography.
Like there will be a gooddesire, like a truly good desire
underneath your pornographystruggle.

(01:30:47):
And I would just invite men tostart looking for what that is.
What is the'cause typically,another like cultural thing we
say about pornography is like,oh, if you're stressed or tired,
or let's the other one stressed,tired, bored, or lonely.
And, and they'll treat like,like, oh, those are the root
causes.
To me, those are not root causesat all.

(01:31:07):
I think there's stuff waybeneath that.
And this is one of the ways tofigure that out is to say, when,
what's the good thing that Idesire, that I'm afraid I can
never have?
And then how is porn plugginginto that as a fake version of
the desire?
So, you know, it's good to havesomeone kind of coach you
through.
A place people can start.

(01:31:28):
Just to give some ideas ofthings I found in myself and
that my clients have found wouldbe like a desire for like really
close intimate connection whereyou can just be yourself.
But most of my guys have a hugefear that if they're, if they
are themselves, they're gonnaget rejected.
If they show what they reallythink and feel, their wife will

(01:31:49):
reject them or won't love them,right?
So, okay.
I, I can't be myself.
So the next best thing is, youknow, whatever it is.
Either, and, and I'll actuallysay it this way, the temptation
isn't just pornography.
The temptation is also to hideyourself.
The temptation is to pretend tolie, you know, to act a certain
way when other people arearound, and then to change the

(01:32:11):
way you act when they're notaround.
And you can see how that buildsand builds to, like, pornography
is a way you can get a pretendcloseness where you can, you can
fantasize about being loved forwho you are, you know?
And think of the sim, the symbolof taking your clothes off and
being seen naked and still beingwanted is totally a symbol for,
I wish I could show my wholemind and my whole heart to

(01:32:33):
someone and still be wanted.
So that's just one example oflike, I, I think the struggle
with pornography will actuallyteach you some of the deepest
things you've ever learned aboutyourself.
You know, for the men out thereand for women, if they struggle,
but yeah.
Any questions on that equation?
Is that making sense?
Did I say that in an okay way?

Kristen (01:32:54):
I think it makes sense.
Yeah.
'cause even like if you strugglewith phone addiction, you know,
like there's just so many, Ialways kind of think of like,
whenever I'm wanting to likejust numb or checkout or, or if
I'm like wanting to emotionallyeat or something, you know, it's
kinda like, okay, what's really,what's really going on here?

(01:33:15):
So I think

Audio Only - All Partic (01:33:16):
mm-hmm.

Kristen (01:33:17):
Asking yourself what the, what the good desire is, is
another way to really get deepin there.
Maybe deeper than, becausesometimes I'm like, do I just
need a hug?
Do I just need to like?
What, what's going on?
But yeah, I love that.
I think that makes a lot ofsense I think that's very
helpful.

Kyson (01:33:34):
Yeah.
It's, it's been prettyeyeopening for me too, like, to
use that with anything.
If I'm angry at my kids or ifI'm, you know, whatever thing
I'm feeling, I'll just likeloosely refer to that as the
temptation.
And then just like, what is thegood desire?
What I love about it is it, thestarting point is the opposite
of what we've been doing, whichis, I'm bad and I shouldn't be

(01:33:55):
wanting porn.
Yeah.
Instead the, the starting pointis like, wait, I like, what if
I'm actually really good?
I'm like a divine being and I'ma child of God and I have a good
desire that I've had for a longtime.
Maybe since the beginning I'vehad this good desire to be like
in a connected relationship or,you know, I, I have a good, you

(01:34:18):
know, I have a huge desire towhatever, have like a powerful
life mission or change the worldor whatever.
But then as soon as you get thatfear that you can't do it, then
you'll start looking for likefake ways to do it.
And so it's, it's cool if youcan actually trace in, in that
way.
It actually allows you to liketrace the temptation back to the
good part of you or the gooddesire that you have.

(01:34:41):
And as you walk it back andrecommit to the desire.
That's kinda like abundance,right?
Mm-hmm.
As you recommit to like, maybe Ican create this desire with God
then it changes, changes theequation and the temptation no
longer comes in.
So in a way, like if you, if youare willing to practice this
pattern it's kind of, I jokinglysay it's like in your face to

(01:35:04):
Satan.
'cause anytime he brings uptemptation, I'm gonna be like,
oh wait, I'm feeling tempted.
Alright, let me figure out myfear and my desire, and then
boom, I'm gonna go shift.
So it's, that's another verymasculine way to take that,
right?
Instead of like running andhiding from temptation and, oh,
I shouldn't feel this way.
I actually, like, I literallypicture in my mind when

(01:35:24):
temptation comes up, I like turnand face it.
I'm like, wait, what is this?
I want you to show me what'sreally here.
And then I, you know, for me, Igo to my higher power and say,
can you teach me how to crackthis open?
I know there's something good atthe bottom of this temptation.
There's a good desire in here.
And I, I have found it like onevery temptation possible, there

(01:35:45):
is always a good desire.
I think that's how temptationworks.
Like it's literally theequation.
And so it becomes such a coolway to overpower the darkness in
your life.
And just say, anytime thetemptation comes in, I will
turn, face it and like learnabout myself and then recommit
to the de, the good desire.
And boom, it's a cool process.

Kristen (01:36:07):
I feel like it sucks all the shame out of it for one
thing.
Yeah.
Then it's also kind of, to me, Ifeel like God will alchemize
everything for our good.
And it's really hard to see thatsometimes, but I feel like that
process helps you see like, oh,this is what this is teaching me
and this is how I can flip it onits head and shift it, shift it
around.

Kyson (01:36:28):
Yeah.
So fun.
I like that word too, that Godalchemizes turns it all to good
because yeah, we've done so muchof like, oh, I'm bad if I think
this way.
Or, that's a bad emotion, eh, Idon't know if that's true.
It's all, it's all something,you know?

Yeah.

Kyson (01:36:44):
Everything is something, but then if you're willing to
look at it from the right angle,God will teach you about
everything you face.

Kristen (01:36:51):
Yeah.
No, I love that.
Yeah.
Was there any other, anythingelse with the

Kyson (01:36:57):
oh yeah.
The question of, remind me ofthe question one more time.

Kristen (01:37:01):
Just like, what can, what can you do right now to
shift things?

Kyson (01:37:05):
Right.
Okay.
So yeah, I'd say step one isstart looking at those
temptations as an opportunity tolearn about your desire.
Another great one is.
It's basically back to what Isaid before, but you, you've
gotta start asking questionsthat you haven't asked before.
So if you feel like you can, youknow, be prayerful, like that's

(01:37:25):
one of my favorite prayers toGod is like, can you give me a
question that I've never asked?
Or can you help me ask the rightquestion in this moment?
If you struggle with that,getting, getting the right
questions, like talk to someoneyou trust or come talk to me,
whatever.
But one of the coolest questionsthat I would invite you to look
at and maybe just to journal onif you can like, slow down a

(01:37:45):
little bit and figure out, youknow, let's say like if you're
still struggling with porn on aregular basis try to get honest
with yourself and ask like, whatare you actually looking for?
'cause if you were finding it,you wouldn't keep, you wouldn't
need to keep going back.
Do you know what I mean?
Mm-hmm.
Like if I was like looking for acar and I got a car, I'd be done

(01:38:08):
after I got the car.
But the fact that you keep goingback means you're looking for
something that you're notfinding.
And so, it's, it is, it'shonestly a pretty similar
question, right?
It's like, what do you desireand what are you afraid you
can't actually get?
But it's a, a little bitdifferent perspective on that.
That's like.
It's kind of weird to say itthis way, but like, it's almost
like practicing self-awarenessabout what, what are you

(01:38:32):
actually thinking when you'relooking at porn?
And I'm not suggesting like,Hey, go look at porn and notice
what you think more like go tolast time.
And just like, what am Isearching?
Why am I searching it?
How am I searching it?
I've got a lot of guys who dothis thing where like, oh, I
scroll through social media andI'm kind of secretly hoping
something pops up.
It's like, dude, that's a symbolfor something.

(01:38:52):
The like, notice why you'redoing it that way.
Do you think it's better if itjust pops up to you or are you,
is there this metaphor in yourlife of like, the world is
happening to me?
Or is that a symbol for notwanting to work for love?
And maybe a woman could justshow up and be like, Hey, you're
awesome.
I want to, I want to love you.

(01:39:12):
You know what I mean?
Like I'm saying non sexually.
Is that a symbol for justactually being okay as you are?
I don't know.
There's, there's stuff to learnfrom it.
I would invite.
People out there to like, lookat, what are you thinking about
when you're, when you watch,like are you fantasizing about
like, wow, if I could be lovedlike that, or Wow, if I could
just have someone adore me, orare you thinking about, wow, I

(01:39:34):
wish I could be confident withmy body.
Like, those are the real thingswe're trying to figure out.
So let's go build confidencewith the body.
Let's go, you know, figure outhow to create those desires in a
way that's tangible and realinstead of living in fantasy
land where you're gonna have tokeep, coming back over and over
forever unless something changeslike that really is the pattern

(01:39:56):
of porn.
You can never, it will never,ever satisfy.
You know, there's like howevermany millions of hours of porn
that get created every year, andit will not satisfy a single
person.
And so, you know, and I, that'snot at all with a shame tone
there.
That's like a, it's sort of likea wake up and like, why don't we

(01:40:17):
look at what you're trying tosatisfy?
That's really the question.
So,

yeah.

Kyson (01:40:23):
Yeah.
I, I feel like the only otherthing I was gonna say in like a
crash course kind of thing wasjust like the dr the drama
triangle.
Can I talk about that for a sec?

Kristen (2) (01:40:32):
Yeah.

Kyson (01:40:34):
Okay, so we talked about the three, like accountable,
vulnerable, and abundant.
Let's like package those up andtoss'em over here for a second.
The other way to start changingthings is to look at your
relationships probably your mostimportant ones.
And I want to, I wanna share athing called the drama triangle.
It's a way to understand thedynamics in your relationships.

(01:40:58):
When we're in drama, there'sbasically three roles that we
play.
That's why it's a triangle.
Three points.
And so you've got the herotrying to save everybody, the
victim, where you're like givingup accountability or you're
blaming other people.
And then the villain whereyou're like in bad guy mode,
like trying to hurt people orpunish them or punish yourself.

(01:41:19):
And what's interesting is.
If you, you know, if you take aminute and think through like
your last several days, or lasttime you had a hard conversation
with your spouse or whatever youmay notice that you're in the
drama triangle quite a bit.
Either choosing to rescuesomeone else from their feelings
like the hero trying to get ridof the accountability and say,
oh, it's not my fault that I,you know, it's not my fault I'm

(01:41:40):
this way, or that life is thisway, I'm the victim.
Or to be in villain mode, whichis like usually more like
bitterness, like, oh, I can'tbelieve you did that to me.
Now you know, now I'm gonnainsult you or hurt you back, or
make you feel bad.
And, and what you'll notice isthose three roles are very
powerless ways to interact.

(01:42:01):
It's like they're almost allattempts to grab power.
Like even the, the hero, oh, Iguess I'll say this, the hero.
It's tempting to think that thehero is the good one.
But if you think about, Ipicture like the classic Batman
movie, like, let's think aboutthe patterns of what a hero
experiences.
The hero wears a mask, so itkind of hides his identity.

(01:42:24):
The hero is usually alone tryingto do everything on their own.
The hero, like even when they doa ton, they usually don't feel
appreciated.
People will often actually paintthem as the bad guy, you know,
like Batman, like, oh, stoptrying to save us, you know,
you're ruining things orwhatever.
And so when that happens, that'swhen the hero will slide to

(01:42:46):
either the victim or thevillain, right?
Batman goes into like, well,forget you guys.
I'm gonna just like do what Iwant.
Or he might go to victim and belike, fine, I'm not gonna help
anymore.
You know, I'm just gonna be sadin my house, or whatever.
And so that, that's the idea, isI'm kind of, I would invite you
to just look for when you switchroles or when, when do you go

(01:43:06):
into one of those three roles.
And to realize that that'sanother, that's like a cycle of
powerlessness, of just like I'mtrying to grab power by shifting
the dynamic.
And we can go way deeper intothat on a, in a one-on-one
conversation sometime, butwhat's cool?
Once you start to identify whereyou're doing the drama triangle

(01:43:27):
the way to get out of drama isactually those three principles
from before accountability,vulnerability, and abundance.
And I'll, I'll help you plugthem in real quick.
Like, think about the hero for asec.
I know it's a lot to digest, butthe hero wears a mask.
And the antidote for the hero isactually to take off the mask

(01:43:47):
and be vulnerable and to, toshow your cards.
It's that same thing.
Let me tell you what I'mactually feeling.
Lemme tell you what's actuallygoing on in my mind.
The, and can you hear how muchpow more powerful that is?
Like, let me just be honest.
Let me tell you the truth.
The victim needs to takeaccountability, right?
'cause they're trying to put it,put the blame on everyone else.

(01:44:08):
That one's pretty obvious.
The victim needs to say, okay, Ican be accountable for my
emotions and my choices.
It, you know, I chose to come toEarth, or I chose to get
married, or I chose to be inthis family.
I chose to drive a car today, soI'm not a victim when I got in a
car accident.
I chose.
I mean, it still sucks, but Ichose to be here.

(01:44:28):
And then the villain, this oneis like one of my favorite
breakthroughs when I realizedthat every villain, think of
every movie, ever, every villainis actually stuck in scarcity,
believing that they can't havethe thing they desire.
Can you hear the, how we're backto the, the temptation equation,
right?
Like, I can't have the thing Idesire, so I need to get it in a

(01:44:51):
fake way.
I need to take it, I need toforce it on people.
I need to hurt other people toget what I want.
So every villain is stuck inscarcity.
And so the antidote is actuallyto be abundant or to choose to
practice abundance, which for,if, if anyone out there doesn't
love that word abundance, somepeople are like, what's that?
It sounds too hippie.
It's really just like confidentthat you can create.

(01:45:14):
So every villain is, is insecurein their creative ability.
And to step out of that is, isto practice being confident that
you can create.
And so like if I, I, I say thisto some, to people sometimes.
Like, if I were to die right nowand I couldn't help any more
clients, like I would totallysay please just like get a group

(01:45:36):
together and talk about thedrama triangle and the three
antidotes.
Just like learn about how tostep outta drama, how to notice
when you're in drama and stepout into accountable,
vulnerable, abundant.
And yeah, that's, that haschanged every relationship I've
ever been in.
It's all, it's all differentbecause I started to practice
that.

Kristen (01:45:58):
Oh, that's awesome.
It feels very complete.
Like when you brought the lastpiece together and linked it
back.
I was like, oh yeah, this, thismakes sense.
And I'm kind of excited to goapply it to my own life.
Like, nice.
Yeah.
That's cool.
That's very cool.

Kyson (01:46:14):
I'm so grateful.
Yeah.
I, I'm really grateful to get toshare that.
That's one of my favorite thingsthat I've ever learned.
The drama triangle is somethingthat's out there and talked
about quite a bit.
Mm-hmm.
But one time I had a clientafter I taught him the drama
triangle,'cause I usually willsay all this stuff, like, oh,
you just need to go.
Like, this is the solution.
Go practice your desires.
Or like, I didn't know exactlywhat to say and then he was

(01:46:37):
like, how do I get out?
I'm in drama all day.
How do I get out?
And I was like, dude, that'ssuch a beautiful question.
And I, I literally just heard inmy mind the three words,
vulnerable, accountable,abundant.
I feel like God just was like,here you go.
And ever since then I've beenlearning about why that's true.
Like, what do these mean?
How do I apply them?
How do I practice'em?
So I'm grateful it connected foryou.

Kristen (01:46:59):
Yeah.
Yeah.
That's, that's really cool.
So if we have people in ourlife, like friends or family who
are dealing with this that havelike.
Been vulnerable with us.
I don't know if you have anythoughts on like, how we can
support them or show up forpeople or,

Kyson (01:47:15):
yeah, I mean, first, right, is like, do you do need
to take care of yourself?
So if you're, if you're like thewife of a husband and if it's
triggering the crap out of you,I'd say don't, don't pretend.
Like it doesn't just say like,this is really hard for me to
talk about.
I want to talk more after I getsome help for myself.

(01:47:36):
Or, you know, like, giveyourself space.
It's okay for it to be hard foryou.
And then if you, for someone whois in more of a, like a neutral,
like, Hey, I'm just here tosupport I think, you know, I'm,
I'm always down for like, shareone of these principles with
them, you know, share like thetemptation equations, very
simple.
Desire, fear, temptation.

(01:47:57):
And I, I hate to just say themost obvious thing in the world,
but I think just love, love'emand be willing to, to support.
But then also like maybe helpingthem practice some of like
practice accountability.
You know, help helping coachthem through, you know, like
just notice, like be willing tolisten with love and then also

(01:48:20):
like be willing to point outwith love.
Like, Hey, I don't think thisthe way you're talking about
that, I don't think that's true.
If, if you're gonna get intothe, into the trenches with them
and really discuss it.
And then I'd say that if youwant to go for another really
simple one, it's just like, tryto help'em, let go of the shame.
It's just not, you know, theshame is never gonna work.

(01:48:41):
So invite'em to step intosomething different and just
love the heck out of them.

Kristen (01:48:49):
All right.
One more question I, I like toask everybody that's on, if they
have a book or a resource thatthey'd recommend to, just
whoever's listening can berelated to what we were talking
about or not.
But just something to share.
I want this to be a goodresource for people, this
podcast.

Kyson (01:49:03):
Nice.
Yeah.
I have a, I have an onlinecourse mm-hmm.
That has all this stuff indepth.
It's, it's also a, like, it's awork in progress as in that
makes it sound like it's notfinished.
More like, I'm always updatingto make sure it's got like the
most core principles.
So I, I have that available andthen I have like a free part of

(01:49:24):
it that's like the bare bonesthat you can get anytime.
So that's on my websiteKysonkidd.com and you'll just go
like there to courses and youcan hop in and sign up.
So that's awesome.
And then I'm trying to thinkwhat other.
I'd say most, mostly that I've,that course is just awesome.
It'll give you like questions toponder.

(01:49:46):
It's all video course so thatyou can actually just watch a
video instead of like, have toread.
I hate reading.
So that's why I did that.
And then I'd say the other otherresource would be just reach out
for a free consultation.
I have a lot of people, like Myintention is just to like
actually help people, you know?
So I had a guy reach out like ayear and a half after our first
free call.

(01:50:06):
We just did a free call and thatwas it.
And he sent me a hundred bucksto say thanks.
'cause he is like, dude, I'vebeen off of porn for a year and
a half.
Like from our phone call.
I was like, really?
I had no idea, man.
So, you know, I'm down to just,I just help people and if we end
up being a great fit forcoaching, awesome.
We can talk about that.
My goal is really just to havean impact and help people get
free from, from the, the pornfree from the stuff.

(01:50:29):
So.

Kristen (01:50:31):
Wonderful.
Awesome.
And then do you wanna go overreally quickly just how is the
website the best way to get intouch with you?
What are your socials?
How do people find you?

Kyson (01:50:42):
Yeah what are your

Kristen (01:50:43):
offerings too?
Like what are all yourofferings?

Kyson (01:50:46):
Yeah, my website is great.
It's got like con a contactthing and you can set up the
free calls and stuff.
You can also reach out to mysocials.
I'm just Kyson Kidd everywhere.
So yeah, you can reach out.
The, the main things I offerwould be like coaching on any
subject too, if you like the wayI think and talk about stuff,
like I coach around anxiety.
I've done stuff around OCDhealthy boundaries with family.

(01:51:08):
Overcoming manipulation, that'sa huge one lately is like, oh,
my parents are manipulative.
How do I, whatever my sister'smanipulative.
So that kind of stuff.
So just general coaching.
I also do a thing called soulsongs where I create a song for
you kind of like download a songto help you with whatever you're
wanting to grow and, and heal.

(01:51:30):
So I'll do a little bit ofcoaching mixed with the music
there.
And what's, I guess, somethingworth mentioning with my
coaching, I'm kind of in aninteresting place the last six
or eight months where I'veshifted away from the rigid
structure of like, this is howmuch I charge and what I
actually place first is like,are we a great fit?

(01:51:51):
Like, do I feel like this is a,a win, right?
Is this a win for me?
Is it a win for you?
Are we supposed to worktogether?
And then from there we candecide on a price.
I usually present that with thetone of like, what do you feel
inspired to invest in yourself?
And I'll do my, you know, if, ifI feel like it's a great fit,
then we'll create a situationwhere we can work together.

(01:52:12):
So for anyone that feels calledto check that out, I'd love to
talk with you.
I feel like at every, everycoaching call, every
conversation just feels like amiracle to me.
It's so fun to, to get, to helppeople see themselves, to allow
them to be vulnerable, to takeaccountability, to shift.
It's just a, it's an awesomejourney.
So yeah, if anyone feels calledto that, I'd love to work with

(01:52:34):
you.
And then with my Soul songs, Ido have a little more of a
pricing because it takes like 10hours, but that, that's
something that's been really funto create for people too.
So yeah, anyone can hit me up.
I'd love to work with you.

Kristen (01:52:47):
Awesome.
Yeah.
Thank you so much.
And we'll link everything below,but yeah.
Thanks a million for talking tome.
What?
Did you have one?
Yeah.
You're

Kyson (01:52:56):
so welcome.
I just remembered one otheroffering that is very free,
super accessible, is just mymusic.
I forgot to talk about that.
Oh.
So I just have a lot of like,healing meditative music, feel
good music.
It's kind of imagine like yoga,meditation, music that's like
still really relatable.
It's not too spacey, you know,like it's very, like, you can
actually feel it very tangible.

(01:53:17):
So that's all under Kyson Kidd.
And then I have another projecthealers, the Healer's Playlist,
so I can get you links for bothof those.
Yeah.

Kristen (01:53:26):
Awesome.
Well, thanks so much.
I, this is just, I'm hoping thiswill just create a lot of good
for people and I'm just sograteful to have you on.

Kyson (01:53:36):
Yeah, thank you Kristen.
It's been way fun.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying whollyempowered, share it with that
friend or on your socials.
You can also hit the followbutton if you want to keep up
with the latest episodes.
Until next time, stay empowered.

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}12. All About Finding Freedom From Porn - with Kyson Kidd