November 29, 2024 • 44 mins
Sara Taylor Oliver is a licensed clinical social worker and a yoga instructor. This episode is part two of two where we discuss how to get started in therapy and how to get the most out of the time you spend going.
In this episode we discuss what a modality is, who offers which kinds of therapy, what works best for different personalities, and other thoughts and ideas around how to therapy.
If you're not new to therapy share this episode with your friends or loved ones who are ready to start figuring it all out.
If you are finding value in this podcast leave a 5 star review and comment below!
You can follow me (Kristen Russell, LMT) via instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sakalyamassage/
You can email me at kristen@sakalyamassage.com
If you would like to reach out or work with Sara you can find her on Instagram or psychology today.She is licensed in the state of Utah and South Carolina, so she can work with you if you are in either of those states.
Sara’s Psychology Today profile:
https://www.psychologytoday.com/us/therapists/sara-taylor-oliver-myrtle-beach-sc/915379
Sara’s Instagram account:
https://www.instagram.com/sarathepsychotherapist/
Links to recommendations from Sara:
The Wisdom of Anxiety by Sheryl Paul:
No Bad Parts by Richard Schwartz:
The Highly Sensitive Person by Elaine Aron:
https://www.amazon.com/s?k=the+highly+sensitive+person+elaine+aron&ref=nb_sb_noss
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
Kristen (00:00):
I'm Kristen Russell, and this is The Wholly Empowered
Podcast, where we dive into allthings holistic healing and open
our minds, hearts, and paradigmsto new ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
So this is part two of our partone and part two episodes with
(00:22):
Sarah Taylor Oliver on therapyand in this episode we're going
to start discussing differentmodalities.
We're going to talk about whatdifferent types of therapists
offer and a little bit aboutwhat personalities might
appreciate which modalities, andwe're just having a really great
(00:43):
discussion, and I learned a lot,so I hope you enjoy it.
So we've been talking about howto find a therapist, all the
things about therapists.
I want to jump over intomodalities like when we're going
to therapy.
What, what types of therapies tolook for?
What are all these, what, whatis therapy?
(01:06):
Like, what?
What the heck is this stuff?
Yes, like, what is, what is amodality?
What does that mean?
Sara (01:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I feel like that's such agood question because people
have no idea about this.
They just know that they shouldtherapy.
It's like, I should do this.
But what does that even mean?
So I will tell you this.
When you are trained, you gothrough your, I did a master's
(01:35):
in, in social work, right?
Someone else might do like amarriage family therapy or a
licensed professional counselor,right?
Whatever.
When you do your training, you.
are trained in some sort ofworldview.
So for example, in social work,it's called the environmental
perspective.
So what, how I was trained is totake a look at all of the
(01:58):
different aspects of people'slives to look at, you know,
again, that bio cycle, social,spiritual, to get a really good
environmental view of what'sgoing on for the person.
So that's kind of the eyes thatI'm using to look at someone.
And so.
I'm, I'm going to pickmodalities or basically
(02:20):
activities, exercises, I'm goingto pick, you know, maybe
education things, activities todo in therapy that are going to,
support that worldview of howI'm seeing this person.
And so someone else, right.
Well, like with a differentlicensure, maybe they're a
(02:40):
marriage family therapist,they're going to look a little
bit different.
They're going to really zone inon the family system.
They're going to look throughdysfunction and health a lot
more through the family system.
So I might be looking more,right, at the person as an
individual and all thesedifferent pieces, but they're
like, oh, no, no, no, we got tolook at the unit.
What's going on in the unit,right?
(03:01):
So they might have somedifferent modalities,
frameworks, different sort ofthings that they do.
Around that worldview and soevery person that you you go to
is probably going to have maybea little bit different vision of
how they see people, and there'salso a ton of overlap, depending
(03:22):
on, you know, on who you go toyour, you're going to hear and
see a lot of therapies that arevery universal, like everyone
does them,
Kristen (03:32):
does
Sara (03:32):
that make sense.
Kristen (03:34):
I think so.
And I think we can dive into ita little bit more with, Naming
some of those, but I want toreally quick, what, maybe this
won't be quick, but really,really quickly, what is the
difference between like, becauseI know there's, there's the
clinical social worker, there'sthe family therapist, there's
the psychiatrist, psychologist.
(03:55):
What are the differences.
And how do you know if youshould go to one versus the
other counselor, you know,there's just a lot of different
levels.
There's a lot of differentwords.
Sara (04:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen (04:07):
Yeah.
Sara (04:09):
Without going into like the really deep specifics of all
of them, each profession orlicensure, I would say is,
again, is going to have a littlebit different worldview, a way
that they were trained to lookat people.
So, that is going to determinehow they provide their care.
(04:29):
So I will say this.
One thing that you should knowis that a psychiatrist.
Is a medical doctor.
So they are a provider ofpsychotropic drugs, right?
So they're the one that's goingto give you meds for anxiety,
depression, schizophrenia, OCD,whatever, right?
(04:50):
Like that is what they'retrained in.
They're not typicallypsychotherapists and talk
therapists.
So they're not really going tosit down with you and talk to
you about your father wound orlike the childhood trauma you
had, And consistently work withyou on that piece of it.
They're going to be like, let'sget you medication and get you
stabilized.
Right.
(05:10):
And they'll take a good historyand then, and it's not that
can't be supportive.
It's a very supportive thing formany people.
However, most of them are notgoing to do the deep
psychotherapy that you'rethinking of.
Right.
So that's a psychiatrist.
When you need medication and youneed to get stable, that's your,
that's your lady, that's yourman, that's, that's a person
(05:30):
that can be really helpful.
These other professions thoughthat you mentioned, oh sorry,
did you?
Oh sorry,
Kristen (05:36):
I was just wondering, so, so they're more like, you
go, they assess, they prescribe,and they don't necessarily do
any form of talk therapy, or dothey, would they do a little
bit?
Sara (05:45):
They will assess, but they're really medication
management is their mainpurpose.
Okay, sorry, continue.
So that's psychiatrists.
But all of these otherprofessions, right, you
mentioned a psychologist, socialworker, licensed professional
counselor, marriage familytherapist, those are just a few.
those are all people that, Theyare trained to do, to go deep,
(06:10):
to do that therapy work.
And again, it's going to be alittle bit different depending
on the licensure, but it alsoIt's as different as the, as
people are on this planet,right?
You might have been trained as apsychologist, but you're, maybe
you have a very family centricway of looking at people.
So it doesn't necessarily, notjust the licensure in and of
(06:30):
itself, that's not necessarilyyour only factor when looking at
someone.
Does that help?
Some.
Kristen (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, I, helps me.
Sara (06:40):
Good.
Kristen (06:41):
Um, but I know, and then some people go on and get
like a P, because you have aMaster's.
Yeah.
And then some people get a PhD,right?
Like you could do that?
Sara (06:51):
You could do that.
You don't need a PhD, in any ofthese professions to, um,
provide therapy services.
What you do need is to getlicensed in the state that you
live.
That's what the requirement is,which, you know, it's a bunch
of, um, training hours,supervision that you have to do.
But if to do a PhD, that'susually academia, right?
(07:13):
People that are teaching youuniversities, people that are
doing research.
Because they have a PhD doesn'tnecessarily mean, that you're
going to get, really, like, oh,I'm going to get much better
care.
You might, but you might not.
You might, you might get areally great therapist that's an
intern, right?
They're not even finished withtheir hours yet for their
licensure.
Kristen (07:32):
So, Knowing that, so then all of these, the
modalities and the, types oftherapies that you can kind of
choose from, or maybe you wantto, maybe you'd want to try to
find someone that offersspecific things.
What are some of the therapiesor the modalities, I guess, that
(07:52):
are offered?
I know this is probably like abig question that you could
spend a lot of time talkingabout because there's probably a
lot, but, what are some of theSo maybe the ones that stick out
to you or that you find are mosthelpful or, you know, whatever
you want to, any information youwant to give on that.
Sara (08:12):
No, absolutely.
And I will say this is that thisis a very broad topic and
there's been a lot of good.
There's a lot of goodconversation and so many other,
if you want like the nittygritty of this, like there's
some good information you canfind, but let me do just like a
little quick overview because,um, let me tell you about some
(08:33):
of the most common therapiesyou're going to see.
And let's start with likeliterally the number one
evidence based therapy.
Like if you go to a doctor, ifyou go to a family doctor, to
get your, your checkup.
Right.
And your yearly checkup.
And you're telling them andyou're describing some anxiety
and depression symptoms.
Right?
They're gonna, in their brain,they're gonna be like, Oh, this
(08:54):
person needs CBT.
What is CBT?
This is like the number oneclassic thing that people are
trained in that is prettyuniversal among any sort of
those professions that we, thatI mentioned.
CBT is called, it's, it standsfor cognitive behavioral
therapy.
And basically it's the idea thatyou can access.
(09:16):
And, learn how to look at yourthoughts, as either helpful or
unhelpful, right?
You can look at your thoughts asbeing distorted, having, you
know, cognitive distortions iswhat they call them.
And, and, and because you havethese thoughts that are not
right, right?
Maybe I'm thinking super blackand white, right?
(09:37):
Gosh, man, I'm just so here andthere, right?
That's a cognitive distortion.
Well, recognizing that andrealizing, Oh, I need to, I need
to change that thought.
That's not a rational thoughtcan then kind of have some spill
down into the rest of yourpsyche.
So, right.
Changing your thoughts canchange your emotions, which can
help change your behaviors.
That's kind of the main idea ofCBT.
(10:00):
And that's your main one.
And it's, it's not supersophisticated.
I will say that.
It's not a super sophisticatedtherapy, but it's a great place
to start.
And it's a great way to help youstart becoming more aware and
more cognizant of the thoughtsthat you are having and just
kind of what your brain is evendoing.
What are your thoughts saying toyou?
(10:21):
Kind of a good place to start.
Yeah, so that's CBT.
And again, CBT is considered inthe, in the, in the therapy
world, in a medical model, wewould say, to be like the gold
standard for me.
Again, this is my personalopinion.
I feel like it's a greatstarting point.
However, let me, let me moveinto something different now.
(10:42):
So that's one, you know, onetype of therapy is that CBT.
However, we might realize thatOh wow, I'm treating someone and
I, this person has experienced asignificant amount of trauma.
Right?
We all know that word.
We hear that word all the time,right?
Meaning that, this person'sdisposition has been
(11:05):
compromised.
Maybe their sense of self hasbeen compromised.
And they're having all thesesymptoms.
Because their nervous system isconstantly reacting to these
traumatic experiences.
So there is just a bunch ofdifferent modalities that have
been created around this idea oftrauma.
(11:26):
So instead of cognitivedistortion being like, oh, we're
getting at the thought patterns,we're trying to get at the
trauma.
We're trying to help this personkind of desensitize some of that
experience of the trauma and beable to come out on the other
side.
So there's a whole slew ofdifferent.
therapies in there that youcould talk about.
So one that you'll hear is like,there's, trauma informed CBT,
(11:49):
right?
We're taking CBT, but we'remaking it trauma informed.
We could talk about, somatictherapies.
So you may have heard of EMDR.
That got really big and reallypopular in the past 10 15 years,
probably more than that.
That's Specifically designed tohelp restore, regenerate the
(12:13):
nervous system to desensitizethe trauma that gets stuck in
that nervous system so thatpeople can return to better
functioning.
So that's another, that'sanother group of therapies is
like those trauma therapies likeEMDR.
Um, let me tell you aboutanother type of therapy that,
uh, I love.
So it's called person centeredor Rogerian therapy.
(12:37):
And the idea behind this isthat, have you ever heard the
term like active listening?
So if I'm a person centeredtherapist, which I happen to be
very person centered in myapproach, as I sit down with
someone, I'm going to be zonedin on every word that they're
saying.
And so like, if you are talkingwith me and you're telling me,
(13:01):
Man, like my teacher totallyhumiliated me in that class.
I'm going to repeat that back toyou, but I'm going to be like,
your teacher just like, wow, youwere devastated.
You were absolutely devastatedby the experience.
And the person's like, I was,and I'm like, and then they
might say, yeah.
And like, man, the whole nextweek, like I couldn't stop
(13:23):
thinking about it.
And I'm like, yeah.
Ooh.
And this was like, yeah.
This, this moved into other,other areas of your life, right?
I'm almost building upon whatyou're saying every single time
to get an idea of like, How deepthis is.
So that person centered therapyis right there, right up in that
person's grill.
You are really mirroring back tothem and almost, almost
(13:44):
expanding what their experienceis.
And this can be really, reallytherapeutic for people because
it just helps them get out allthe things that haven't been
seen.
So it's almost as like we canget it out, we can see it
mirrored back to us, and we canactually realize that's what
went on.
That's what was happening to me.
That's person centered therapy.
Kristen (14:06):
I feel like it sounds like that just helps them
clarify, like you kind of givingsuggestions of how that might be
affecting them helps themclarify how it's actually even
affecting them?
Sara (14:17):
Absolutely.
100%.
Most of the time, right, peoplejust need and they want to see
clearly what their experiencewas and they haven't been able
to get a clear vision of that.
And so, yeah, I love personcentered, uh, Rogerian stuff for
that reason.
It's because people justsometimes will sit down and sob
(14:40):
and cry in front of you becausethey hadn't, they're like, I had
no idea I was so compromised bythis.
I had no idea I was so affectedby this.
And it can be so effective injust helping people let their
guard down.
Does that make sense?
Kristen (14:52):
Yeah, it seems like it'd be good for people.
I know, I know I have to talkthings out.
Just.
In my day to day, like justprocessing my life.
I have to talk it out.
And it, it sounds like that's agood for people who need that to
actually process their stuff.
Sara (15:08):
Yeah.
Kristen (15:09):
Yeah,
Sara (15:09):
that would be excellent.
And I think like when you thinkof a therapist, that's
oftentimes what you're thinkingof.
Like you're thinking of thatexchange between the two of you.
Right.
Audio Only - All Particip (15:18):
Yeah.
Sara (15:19):
So I, I, yeah, that's fun.
It's fun stuff.
another really I would say thisis a very effective and
interesting sort of therapy isthere's a whole kind of side of
therapy where, we think aboutthe person as not just like
Kristen, like if you're sittingin front of me, I'm not thinking
(15:40):
about you as just Kristen, like,like mono, like a mono mind.
You just being you, I'm actuallythinking about you as an
intricate set of different partsof you And, you're an internal
system of different piecesworking together and, you know,
it's called parts work or theother name for that is called
(16:01):
internal family systems, right?
This idea that this system isgoing on inside of you, inside
of each person.
And gosh, I might have a partthat is like really stuck with
anger.
There might be a part that wasreally.
really traumatized and the angergot really, really big.
(16:23):
So I'm really suffering withanger right now.
I just like at a drop of a hat,I just like get pissed off at
people and I get so angry.
And so what I'm going to do isI'm actually going to go in and
we're going to talk about allthese parts of you, right?
Maybe there's this, um, maybethere's all these parts
underneath the anger that youjust haven't had any access to
because this one is so big.
(16:45):
So what I'll actually help youdo as a therapist is we're going
to go in and we're going to talkto anger.
We're going to say, wow.
What happened?
What was going on for you?
You were like showing up toalmost as a protector.
You're just showing up with yourclaws ready to protect.
Because you've been hurt.
Let's talk to you and figure outwhat you need, anger, so that
you can step down for a secondand realize, oh, there's these
(17:07):
other parts of Kristen that arehere.
Oh, we haven't heard fromcompassion in a long time.
We haven't heard from peace orhope or, gosh, we haven't heard
from grief.
Grief really needs a moment.
We need to really talk to grief.
Grief has been suffering andshe's been stuck and anger's
been just taken over, right?
That's an example of internalfamily systems of parts work.
(17:29):
That can be extremely helpfulfor people that are experiencing
trauma because again, like, It'salmost like the nervous system
gets frozen and all this stuffgets frozen in, in, in the
meantime.
And so I, I love doing this withpeople because it really can
help unlock and help peopleaccess more of a fuller sense of
(17:51):
self.
They can kind of move into thespace where they're like, Oh,
I'm not actually that angrypart.
I'm actually this part.
This is, we're going to care forthese parts.
Does that make sense?
What I just explained?
It's a lot.
Kristen (18:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, when you're doing this withsomeone, like actively using
this therapy with them, are youtalking using kind of the same
language that you're using now?
Or is it more subtle?
Like, are you, I guess I've donetherapy where it's very like,
We're going to talk to anger.
(18:28):
We're going to talk to peace.
And I don't know if that's howyou, would it be more, uh,
roundabout?
Sara (18:35):
No.
You know, you can be superdirect.
Like, I might have someone closetheir eyes and I'm, I'm going to
tell them, Okay, we're going togo into a room and I want you to
just notice some differentpeople walking around in that
room.
And I want you to see anger.
We're going to go sit next toanger and see how it responds.
Oh, did it scoot away?
Oh yeah.
(18:55):
Look, you tell me what happenedas you approached it.
And the person might say, Oh, helike hit me in the face and ran
away, right?
And we'll start working in that,you know, very specifically in
that way.
Kristen (19:08):
Oh, that's really cool.
Sara (19:10):
So kind of interesting.
Kristen (19:11):
Yeah, I love that.
Um, like that's, that's like myjam.
That's kind of like, oh, cool.
It's my jam too.
Sara (19:20):
It's powerful for people.
It's very,
Kristen (19:22):
yeah.
No, and I feel like that's, um,kind of the basis for that.
Um, what's it called that movie?
Sara (19:32):
Oh, yeah, it feels a little inside out.
Yeah, I can totally see that.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Kristen (19:40):
Yeah, so, was there any other, were there any other
therapies you wanted to
Sara (19:45):
address?
There's, okay, how about this?
Let's talk about narrativetherapy for a second.
Just because I love this one,this is another one that, this
is maybe not as common as likeCBT, but the idea behind
narrative therapy is that youare helping someone author their
(20:06):
life story.
And so, You know, if, if we, ifwe show up and we do an
assessment, what I'm trying toget out of your assessment is
I'm trying to find out what isthe, what is your life
narrative?
Like, where did you start outlow?
How did you grow?
Where did you get a space ofresilience in your life?
(20:30):
And.
You know, where are you in thatstory arc right now?
Are you like in that stuck placewhere you're like, what's going
to happen to the character?
Is she going to survive?
Is she going to die?
It's like that, that, that partin the movie where you're like,
Oh my gosh, what's happening?
Like, or are you in that part oflike, no, things are resolving.
I'm gaining my strength here.
(20:51):
Like I'm figuring it out.
So you're really helping someonealmost mythologize their life
experience and helping themrealize, Oh, I'm like this
heroic.
Person on this journey and I'mdoing this and where am I in my
journey?
Um, Jordan Peterson kind ofalludes to this stuff.
(21:12):
I feel like like with selfauthoring self authorship
Kristen (21:15):
Yeah,
Sara (21:16):
but this it's narrative therapy.
So That's another really coolone that I feel like people just
need.
People need it, right?
Like, they need to be told, Hey,like, you're a good, you're a
good character.
Like, you're a good one here.
And like, let's just help yousee where you're at so you can
have some compassion foryourself, you know?
Kristen (21:37):
Do you feel like it's more working with self awareness
or, like, archetypes?
Or, does that make sense?
Sara (21:46):
Yes, yes.
I think archetypes candefinitely come into narrative
therapy.
right, like seeing yourself as,again, like that heroic person
or like maybe you're seeingyourself as like, wow, I'm a,
I'm a self sacrificing personor, oh man, I've taken on like a
savior complex or, I've, youcan, you can definitely like
(22:10):
zoom out and see yourself asthis like character, if that
makes sense.
Kristen (22:15):
But the goal is kind of self awareness and seeing
yourself more clearly, I guess.
Sara (22:21):
Exactly.
another, another way that youcan approach therapy is in a
very, uh, it's like a verytopical manner.
So for example, I might havesomeone come to me for grief and
it's really, we're reallyfocused on just grieving the
(22:41):
process of grieving theexperience that you're having in
grieving.
Um, you know, like maybe we areusing a little bit of these
other therapies I mentioned,right?
Maybe we're like writing yourstory to understand and help you
process some of this grief,right?
(23:02):
So therapy can also be verytopical, right?
We're doing grief work.
we're doing dream work.
We're focusing on your dreams.
That's another interesting one,right?
Where like, This, it's not verycommon.
I would say like the traditionallike average therapist is not
going to be trained in dreamwork, but maybe you're just
(23:22):
really feeling like, wow, mysubconscious is telling me
things.
And it's, it keeps talking to methrough my dreams and I don't
know what to do about it.
Right.
And so you, you sit down withyour therapist and we're going
to like, have you write themdown.
We're going to look for thethemes that are coming up.
We are going to see if we cantry to like interpret some of
the stuff that you're habituallygetting and that maybe is
(23:44):
habitually like distressing toyou.
Right.
So that's another topical waythat you could work in therapy.
Dreams.
I
Kristen (23:50):
love that.
Cause I think we think of dreamsas being so like out there, like
it's kind of like anybody whoworks with dreams seems kind of.
Maybe not credible or something,but, but it's totally a thing in
therapy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it makes sense.
Cause it's your subconscious.
sorting things out and we knowthat, right?
Yes, we do.
So, yeah, that would make sense,I guess, but we could, we could
(24:15):
do a whole, I would love to do adeep dive into dream therapy,
any, like, I love dreams.
Sara (24:19):
And like, along with dream work, you'll also probably hear
the term depth psychology orJungian psychology, which is
very much dream work archetypes.
If you're familiar with, like,Carl Jung, the Swiss
psychologist.
There's really a whole likemethod around his work and it's
(24:44):
very much non traditional, notwhat you're going to get with
like a normal CBT therapist,right?
But that's a whole nother realmthat you could bop into, which
is really fun.
A lot of people, Maybe evenhighly sensitive people are
really drawn to some of those,right?
Even as I'm talking, you mighthave noticed yourself being
like, Oh, I like that one,right?
Like, I want this one.
(25:05):
I feel like the personality ofthe individual plays so much
into this, because some people,you know, like they do some CBT
and they're like, I feel so muchbetter, like, I'm okay, I'm
gonna be fine.
And other people are like, mmmm, that was not it.
You know, like, like, I'msitting over here traumatized,
like that does not do anything,right?
Like, please do something else.
(25:26):
And, and, and some people needthat.
And that's great.
And that's why there's all thesedifferent sort of approaches
that we have that we can use.
Kristen (25:36):
So is that because We've been talking about kind of
these like EMDR, CBT, all theseacronyms, and then I know some
of it, it's based off of CarlJung, and then like Freud, and,
but those are all offshoots ofjust kind of their philosophies.
Is that right?
Or are they're like, if you'relooking for a therapist, and
(25:56):
you're wanting to find whattherapies they do, are we mostly
looking at these littleacronyms?
Or will they have like, youngin?
I don't know, like, how
Sara (26:10):
does that?
Um, so like, for example, ifyou're in psychology today, and
you're looking at someone'sprofile, it'll have like a whole
list.
And you may see from the mostcommon, right?
CBT to like the most unique, andso you can really just ask
someone you, when you're likeinterviewing and you're calling
(26:32):
someone, just be like, yo, doyou do parts work?
Like I heard this thing calledinternal family systems and it
sounded really interesting.
Like, do you do that?
it's yeah, you're not going tofind a lot of people that are
like, oh yeah, I'm a, I'm aspecifically trained Yungian
dreams work therapist, right?
That's like a very niche thing,which you can find.
(26:52):
But that's not, that's not likethe main thing that you're going
to find it that most people aregoing to be interested in.
Kristen (26:57):
well, you were talking about personalities.
I kind of, I think it'sinteresting how we, you know,
we're all drawn to differenttherapies.
But I was wondering also, Iheard something recently about
men process.
It's kind of the differencebetween men and women, I guess,
more than personalities.
But.
(27:18):
We're all just the fact thatwe're drawn to different
therapies and what might workbetter for some people.
Um, so, I heard, and I don'tknow, I didn't verify this, I'm
not sure if it's true, but Iheard that men's cortisol levels
go up when they talk about theirday, and women's go down.
Audio Only - All P (27:36):
Interesting.
Kristen (27:36):
I don't know if it's true.
Audio Only - All P (27:38):
Interesting.
Kristen (27:39):
But I've talked to some men where they're like, yeah.
And I'm like, I wonder if the,if the approach, I feel like
some men avoid therapy becausethey're like, I don't want to go
talk about my crap.
Like that sounds re traumatizingor, you know, just wondering if
(28:00):
you have any thoughts on like,if you're someone who doesn't
want to rehash things.
What's a good therapy?
Or do you feel like that's anissue?
Sara (28:11):
Yeah.
No, I think that's reallyinsightful and interesting.
there are plenty of people that,are extremely traumatized by
going to therapy because theyhave to consistently rehash
things.
And we don't want to do that topeople.
Like, frankly, that's oppositeof what we do.
We don't, we don't want to doany harm to people.
(28:32):
We want to do the minimal amountof, you know, distress making
that we possibly can.
And so I really do think that'sactually like a very insightful
question.
And there are people that, theyare very verbal.
And some, again, that, thattends to be like, yeah, women.
(28:54):
But also like, there's a lot ofvariety in this, right?
Like we're not going to like putanyone in a box, but if you're a
verbal person, that's good toknow.
If you were a physical person,for example, like I'm a dancer,
I grew up as a dancer and I doyoga.
That really, really helps me.
The movement makes such a bigdifference.
(29:15):
Um, do you know that aboutyourself?
You might go into like a talktherapy session and be like, do
you do EMDR?
EMDR.
Sounds like, EMDR is not likemovement, but it's actually
considered a somatic or bodybased therapy.
So what you're gonna get in yoursession, and you're gonna be
doing eye movements, or you'regonna be doing tapping, and
you're not gonna have to sitthere and rehash every single
(29:36):
detail verbally.
You're actually gonna like, hiton something small, desensitize
it, do something with yourhands, do something with your
eyes, and feel different andfeel better.
So that's super helpful to knowthat about yourself, right?
Or like, are you a writer?
You might, you might need to do,you might really be able to do
(29:57):
some really good writing,journaling, and then working
with your therapist on whatyou've been writing about or
writing poetry, right?
Like maybe you're an artist.
There's really good expressivearts therapists, right?
That you can actually, there'sa, there's such a therapy called
sandtray.
You go and you actually workwith this tray of sand and like
these different little objectsand toys and placing things
(30:20):
inside the sand tray, right?
There's all these different waysthat can be so specific to the
needs that you have.
And if you have questions or ifyou're just like, I don't know
what I'm looking for, but I needsomething that hits this, ask
people about that.
Ask the therapist about that.
People can direct you to somereally, really good
practitioners that can help you.
Kristen (30:40):
Yeah, I like that you dove into just a little bit
about EMDR.
Cause I feel like like you'resaying it's so popular and I, I
like it's taken the world bystorm.
No, that's dramatic.
But I just hear about it all thetime and people are like, that
really actually helped me.
Like it was so.
impactful.
And I didn't really think of itas a, like a less verbal therapy
(31:05):
or like a somatic therapy even.
Audio Only - All Participan (31:07):
But
Kristen (31:10):
yeah, I guess we've talked about this before about
the, the bilateral stimulationand the lady who came up with
that.
But would you want to just talkabout that for just a sec?
Cause I just think it's reallyinteresting to know how that
works.
Sara (31:25):
So EMDR, right?
I expressed it as like a somaticsoma, meaning body, right?
accessing our psyche through themeans of the body.
and just as, just as aclarifying thing, I have
received a fundamental leveltraining of EMDR.
I'm not like a masterpractitioner, but I'm authorized
to use it with people.
(31:46):
so this idea of like bilateralstimulation, like what in the
world is that?
It's this, basically this ideathat we have two lobes in our
brain, right?
We have these different sides.
And when we are in a traumatizedstate, our nervous system, Is,
is going to go into just likethis, almost this freeze where
(32:07):
our lobes are not talking toeach other.
And so it's as if whatever hasjust been experienced is just
going to get frozen in time.
Stuck and whenever we run intoanything that reminds us of
that, it's just like it's justgoing to crunch.
It's going to hurt.
And so this idea that we can usethis bilateral right two sided
(32:28):
stimulation.
So, for example, this doing thisis a bilateral stimulation
walking down the street left,right, left, right.
is bilateral.
It's moving those differentsides of the body, which is
accessing the different lobes inthe brain.
Doing that has a really calmingeffect.
So we can actually, move throughsomething traumatic while doing
(32:51):
these movements, while doingmaybe even eye movements from
side to side, so that it's goingto lower our response of our
nervous system.
And we can kind of almost likemove through it and come out on
the other side.
so like for me, I can't think ofhow many walks I've gone on with
friends and just talked aboutstuff.
(33:11):
And then I end the walk and I'mlike, wow, you just feel better
if you go on a walk and talk.
That's an example of bilateralstimulation.
Right?
You just, like, moved throughsomething and you got that
movement in, you got yourself totalk about it and talk through
it and come out on the otherside and just, like, feel a lot
better.
Kristen (33:32):
I think that's why running or hiking is so
therapeutic for a lot of people.
Like, it's like, I just gotta goon a run and I just gotta, like,
let my brain process things.
Audio Only - All Participa (33:41):
Yes.
Kristen (33:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's helpful tounderstand how it actually works
because I think we see allthese.
It's different therapies andit's kinda like, okay, Yeah.
Right.
I don't, I don't understand it,you know?
Sara (33:55):
Yeah.
So, and like, maybe for a secondif that's okay, I'll talk about
yoga
Kristen (33:59):
love for you to talk about yoga
Sara (34:01):
so like in my personal journey, for me, yoga became
really, really important, as away to use my body, to have a
somatic experience and, again,do like what we just talked
about with EMDR, right?
Like kind of like moving throughsome of this difficulty and
(34:25):
coming out on the other side.
yoga is definitely.
Can give you access to that aswell.
So I think in the United States,yoga is thought of as an
exercise and as fitness.
And that is not traditionallyhow it is thought of, when I did
my yoga certification in mytraining, I was lucky enough to
(34:48):
train with someone who really,really had an extremely firm
grasp on this idea that it's amind, body, spirit experience.
And that if you treat it assuch, it can just be really
powerful.
and so like my approach to yogais.
(35:08):
a lot less about the importanceof the movements that I'm doing,
and it's more about moving in away that feels good and
creating.
A good experience in the body.
And I think like we, we gothrough so many bad experiences
in our bodies because we'reembodied all the time.
We're always with ourselves andwe don't really get a break from
(35:29):
our body when we sleep.
it's like, Oh, I'm away, butwe're still, we're still here.
But we have so many likedifficult emotional experiences
in our bodies that sometimes itjust it's not safe to be in
them.
And so we just experience a lotof like dissociation and numbing
out and just problems, right?
Like the anxiety, thedepression, everything.
(35:50):
And so learning to create apositive experience in your body
and knowing that you have thepower to find peacefulness in
your body is just like It's,it's gold.
It's gold.
And I love that for myself, andI love that for people.
And so like, if you want to dosomething therapeutic that's not
this talk therapy experience,you might go and try, like,
(36:13):
taking a meditation class.
Or like a gentle yoga class.
And go and try, and again, don'tlook for the fitness stuff.
Look for someone where you'relike, I'm looking for some mind
body spirit.
Right?
And, and that sort of stuffoftentimes can just be really
helpful.
Or sometimes, I'll say this too,they can bring up things for you
(36:36):
that can freak you out a littlebit.
And you're like, I don't knowwhat just happened, but I'm
feeling weird.
And then you have your talktherapist and you're like,
something's happening.
What do I do with this?
Right.
And they might be like,
Audio Only - All Participan (36:45):
Oh,
Sara (36:47):
let's work with that.
Good job.
Like way to be aware of this.
This is a thing for you.
Right.
So this can be like really goodin tandem with some talk
therapy, even for people.
Kristen (36:57):
I was about to ask you right before you said that, do
you feel like it's a good Yes.
Because things come up and thenyou have to process them and you
don't always know how.
Right.
Yeah.
Sara (37:05):
I dunno what to do with that.
Kristen (37:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like all these practiceswe learn in there, like
journaling or you know, canreally help you just in your day
to day.
Like, I'm going to yoga and I'mgonna see what comes up and I'm
gonna journal about it, and thenI'm gonna go to therapy and talk
about it if I can't, you know?
Sara (37:25):
Yeah.
Ideally, some people just livetheir lives this way.
This is how they've learned tofunction.
And because they can do that,they're healthier.
They might be more sensitive.
They might be a very sensitivesoul.
They might feel a lot.
They might experience a lot.
They might've had a lot oftrauma, but they are able to
work with their bodies, theirspirits.
(37:47):
To help them move through someof this stuff.
Maybe they have goodcommunities, right, that also
help them with that.
And so, like, people that can dothat for themselves, it's so
powerful.
And I just want people to knowthat, like, you can learn that.
That's something you can learn.
You can move into that area.
You can learn those skills.
(38:10):
And you can actually find a safeperson that can help you calm
down a little bit.
Enough to be able to do that inyour life.
Like, there's really so much,space for you to heal.
That's
Kristen (38:20):
beautiful.
That's what we're here to,that's what I'm hoping to do
with this podcast is help peoplelike just see that there are
options for them and that theycan heal and they can be okay.
So I love that.
I feel like that's a good, didwe cover everything you wanted
(38:40):
to cover?
Because you have so many thingsthat are great, but like, yeah,
I think that's a great stoppingpoint.
Honestly.
Thank you.
It is too.
Yeah.
Um, do you, you mentioned, uh,what did you say?
You mentioned if you want to doa deep dive on some of these
other, like, um, modalities, youcan do that.
Do you have any right off thetop of your head?
(39:02):
If you don't, it's fine.
But do you have any, likeanywhere people can go or would
you just say to Google it?
Or what would you say if peoplewant to learn more?
I would just
Sara (39:10):
say there's a bajillion and one psychology podcasts.
If you want to, search any ofthose things specifically,
There's some really good stuffthat you can listen to.
Um, there's some really greatbooks you can read.
I could go into tons ofresources, but I don't know if I
want.
Kristen (39:27):
Okay.
well, if you have any that youwant to mention, if there's
anything that's really standingout, because I was going to ask
you next what, what books orresources you would recommend.
So there's one you want torecommend because you like it,
but also related to that wouldbe great, Absolutely.
Sara (39:40):
Well, let me tell you this, out of like all the
modalities that I've described,I personally do a lot of person
centered therapy, narrativetherapy, I do internal family
systems, I do some EMDR, I dosome yoga, maybe a little bit of
depth psychology, Jungian andexistential psychology here and
(40:03):
there, right?
and so anyway, just books thatI, that I like around those, I
would definitely read the book,The Wisdom of Anxiety by Cheryl
Paul.
She is excellent.
also if, if any of those areresonating with you, you might
like the book, The HighlySensitive Person by Elaine
(40:24):
Aaron.
We didn't get into HSP.
We could do another time.
the practitioner that created,um, IFS, Internal Family
Systems, parts work that Italked about, his name is
Richard Schwartz.
And he has some really goodstuff, some really good books.
I would search Richard Schwartz.
(40:46):
anything from him is almostgoing to give you like, You
could learn how to kind ofjournal, journal some of that
parts work and learn how toactually do it with yourself.
So, I would look up him, Ithink, honestly, that's like
four resources, so maybe I'lljust stop it.
But those, those are great,yeah.
Start with.
Kristen (41:05):
I was just saying, if you want to send me any links
for, if you have anythingspecific, I'll post the links
below.
But I just want to ask youreally quick about, wisdom of
anxiety.
Just explain it a little bit.
Cause you've recommended it tome and I really have loved
everything I've read in it.
why do you recommend it?
How does that help people?
Sara (41:22):
Yeah, I love this book.
This is one of the books thathas totally changed things for
me as a person and as atherapist, the way that I
practice.
But the idea is a little bit,around it's rooted in depth
psychology actually, and in kindof that like Jungian tradition,
and it's this idea You know, weoftentimes think of anxiety as
(41:43):
this thing to be medicated awayor really just like anything we
can do to like ignore it ordistract from it.
And, and really what anxiety is,is just the fire alarm.
It's the messenger.
And it contains deep wisdom andunderneath that anxiety, if we
can get underneath it and we canget to some of the messages that
(42:06):
are kind of hidden under there,there's like, it's like mining
for so much goodness.
There's so much goodnessunderneath there that if you can
get to that and get away fromthis, idea that anxiety is
something to just like, Oh, likewe hate it.
We hate it.
No, no, no, no.
This is a doorway into a verydeep space that can be very
healing for you..
(42:27):
So that's what that book isabout.
It's so helpful for people thatwant to look at their anxiety is
something that actually meanssomething, not as just the
senseless experience that theykeep having.
So a lot of people resonate withthat.
You might not resonate with thatin which case, that's totally
fine.
But.
I would, I would say that's oneto look into for sure.
Kristen (42:48):
Yeah, I feel like it really takes out the, like,
takes the anxiety out ofanxiety, where it's just like,
oh, oh, it's just a message.
Okay.
We don't have to freak out aboutthis.
Yeah.
Sara (43:00):
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
I feel like to end, it's like,we're all, we're all a little
bit, we're all a little messedup.
We're all a little weird.
We're all human.
We can all use some tune ups.
Like, none of us will ever becompletely healthy.
None of us will ever becompletely self sufficient in
our mental health.
And so I just feel like it'ssuch a blessing to ask for help
(43:23):
when you need it, to get it whenyou need it, and to just believe
that you can also, you can alsoactually make good progress.
You can actually help otherpeople.
That are, that are sufferingtoo.
And, you know, we're all justhere trying to figure it out.
Right.
Like none of us are omniscientor omnipotent or we're just
therapists.
Like I'm just here doing what Ican.
(43:44):
And, you know, it's good stuff.
Kristen (43:47):
So, right.
Yeah.
No, I think that's great.
Great message.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, gosh, thank you so much,Sarah.
I'm so grateful and we'll haveto just, we'll just have to have
you back and talk about someother fun things now that we've
like covered the basics.
Some different things.
(44:09):
Well it's been a delight,
Sara (44:10):
so thank you for having me of course.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying WhollyEmpowered, share it with that
friend or on your socials, youcan also hit the follow button
if you want to keep up with thelatest episodes.
Until next time, stay empowered.
I'm Kristen Russell, and this is The Wholly Empowered
Podcast, where we dive into allthings holistic healing and open
our minds, hearts, and paradigmsto new ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
So this is part two of our partone and part two episodes with
(00:22):
Sarah Taylor Oliver on therapyand in this episode we're going
to start discussing differentmodalities.
We're going to talk about whatdifferent types of therapists
offer and a little bit aboutwhat personalities might
appreciate which modalities, andwe're just having a really great
(00:43):
discussion, and I learned a lot,so I hope you enjoy it.
So we've been talking about howto find a therapist, all the
things about therapists.
I want to jump over intomodalities like when we're going
to therapy.
What, what types of therapies tolook for?
What are all these, what, whatis therapy?
(01:06):
Like, what?
What the heck is this stuff?
Yes, like, what is, what is amodality?
What does that mean?
Sara (01:14):
Yeah, yeah.
Oh, I feel like that's such agood question because people
have no idea about this.
They just know that they shouldtherapy.
It's like, I should do this.
But what does that even mean?
So I will tell you this.
When you are trained, you gothrough your, I did a master's
(01:35):
in, in social work, right?
Someone else might do like amarriage family therapy or a
licensed professional counselor,right?
Whatever.
When you do your training, you.
are trained in some sort ofworldview.
So for example, in social work,it's called the environmental
perspective.
So what, how I was trained is totake a look at all of the
(01:58):
different aspects of people'slives to look at, you know,
again, that bio cycle, social,spiritual, to get a really good
environmental view of what'sgoing on for the person.
So that's kind of the eyes thatI'm using to look at someone.
And so.
I'm, I'm going to pickmodalities or basically
(02:20):
activities, exercises, I'm goingto pick, you know, maybe
education things, activities todo in therapy that are going to,
support that worldview of howI'm seeing this person.
And so someone else, right.
Well, like with a differentlicensure, maybe they're a
(02:40):
marriage family therapist,they're going to look a little
bit different.
They're going to really zone inon the family system.
They're going to look throughdysfunction and health a lot
more through the family system.
So I might be looking more,right, at the person as an
individual and all thesedifferent pieces, but they're
like, oh, no, no, no, we got tolook at the unit.
What's going on in the unit,right?
(03:01):
So they might have somedifferent modalities,
frameworks, different sort ofthings that they do.
Around that worldview and soevery person that you you go to
is probably going to have maybea little bit different vision of
how they see people, and there'salso a ton of overlap, depending
(03:22):
on, you know, on who you go toyour, you're going to hear and
see a lot of therapies that arevery universal, like everyone
does them,
Kristen (03:32):
does
Sara (03:32):
that make sense.
Kristen (03:34):
I think so.
And I think we can dive into ita little bit more with, Naming
some of those, but I want toreally quick, what, maybe this
won't be quick, but really,really quickly, what is the
difference between like, becauseI know there's, there's the
clinical social worker, there'sthe family therapist, there's
the psychiatrist, psychologist.
(03:55):
What are the differences.
And how do you know if youshould go to one versus the
other counselor, you know,there's just a lot of different
levels.
There's a lot of differentwords.
Sara (04:06):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen (04:07):
Yeah.
Sara (04:09):
Without going into like the really deep specifics of all
of them, each profession orlicensure, I would say is,
again, is going to have a littlebit different worldview, a way
that they were trained to lookat people.
So, that is going to determinehow they provide their care.
(04:29):
So I will say this.
One thing that you should knowis that a psychiatrist.
Is a medical doctor.
So they are a provider ofpsychotropic drugs, right?
So they're the one that's goingto give you meds for anxiety,
depression, schizophrenia, OCD,whatever, right?
(04:50):
Like that is what they'retrained in.
They're not typicallypsychotherapists and talk
therapists.
So they're not really going tosit down with you and talk to
you about your father wound orlike the childhood trauma you
had, And consistently work withyou on that piece of it.
They're going to be like, let'sget you medication and get you
stabilized.
Right.
(05:10):
And they'll take a good historyand then, and it's not that
can't be supportive.
It's a very supportive thing formany people.
However, most of them are notgoing to do the deep
psychotherapy that you'rethinking of.
Right.
So that's a psychiatrist.
When you need medication and youneed to get stable, that's your,
that's your lady, that's yourman, that's, that's a person
(05:30):
that can be really helpful.
These other professions thoughthat you mentioned, oh sorry,
did you?
Oh sorry,
Kristen (05:36):
I was just wondering, so, so they're more like, you
go, they assess, they prescribe,and they don't necessarily do
any form of talk therapy, or dothey, would they do a little
bit?
Sara (05:45):
They will assess, but they're really medication
management is their mainpurpose.
Okay, sorry, continue.
So that's psychiatrists.
But all of these otherprofessions, right, you
mentioned a psychologist, socialworker, licensed professional
counselor, marriage familytherapist, those are just a few.
those are all people that, Theyare trained to do, to go deep,
(06:10):
to do that therapy work.
And again, it's going to be alittle bit different depending
on the licensure, but it alsoIt's as different as the, as
people are on this planet,right?
You might have been trained as apsychologist, but you're, maybe
you have a very family centricway of looking at people.
So it doesn't necessarily, notjust the licensure in and of
(06:30):
itself, that's not necessarilyyour only factor when looking at
someone.
Does that help?
Some.
Kristen (06:37):
Yeah, yeah, I, helps me.
Sara (06:40):
Good.
Kristen (06:41):
Um, but I know, and then some people go on and get
like a P, because you have aMaster's.
Yeah.
And then some people get a PhD,right?
Like you could do that?
Sara (06:51):
You could do that.
You don't need a PhD, in any ofthese professions to, um,
provide therapy services.
What you do need is to getlicensed in the state that you
live.
That's what the requirement is,which, you know, it's a bunch
of, um, training hours,supervision that you have to do.
But if to do a PhD, that'susually academia, right?
(07:13):
People that are teaching youuniversities, people that are
doing research.
Because they have a PhD doesn'tnecessarily mean, that you're
going to get, really, like, oh,I'm going to get much better
care.
You might, but you might not.
You might, you might get areally great therapist that's an
intern, right?
They're not even finished withtheir hours yet for their
licensure.
Kristen (07:32):
So, Knowing that, so then all of these, the
modalities and the, types oftherapies that you can kind of
choose from, or maybe you wantto, maybe you'd want to try to
find someone that offersspecific things.
What are some of the therapiesor the modalities, I guess, that
(07:52):
are offered?
I know this is probably like abig question that you could
spend a lot of time talkingabout because there's probably a
lot, but, what are some of theSo maybe the ones that stick out
to you or that you find are mosthelpful or, you know, whatever
you want to, any information youwant to give on that.
Sara (08:12):
No, absolutely.
And I will say this is that thisis a very broad topic and
there's been a lot of good.
There's a lot of goodconversation and so many other,
if you want like the nittygritty of this, like there's
some good information you canfind, but let me do just like a
little quick overview because,um, let me tell you about some
(08:33):
of the most common therapiesyou're going to see.
And let's start with likeliterally the number one
evidence based therapy.
Like if you go to a doctor, ifyou go to a family doctor, to
get your, your checkup.
Right.
And your yearly checkup.
And you're telling them andyou're describing some anxiety
and depression symptoms.
Right?
They're gonna, in their brain,they're gonna be like, Oh, this
(08:54):
person needs CBT.
What is CBT?
This is like the number oneclassic thing that people are
trained in that is prettyuniversal among any sort of
those professions that we, thatI mentioned.
CBT is called, it's, it standsfor cognitive behavioral
therapy.
And basically it's the idea thatyou can access.
(09:16):
And, learn how to look at yourthoughts, as either helpful or
unhelpful, right?
You can look at your thoughts asbeing distorted, having, you
know, cognitive distortions iswhat they call them.
And, and, and because you havethese thoughts that are not
right, right?
Maybe I'm thinking super blackand white, right?
(09:37):
Gosh, man, I'm just so here andthere, right?
That's a cognitive distortion.
Well, recognizing that andrealizing, Oh, I need to, I need
to change that thought.
That's not a rational thoughtcan then kind of have some spill
down into the rest of yourpsyche.
So, right.
Changing your thoughts canchange your emotions, which can
help change your behaviors.
That's kind of the main idea ofCBT.
(10:00):
And that's your main one.
And it's, it's not supersophisticated.
I will say that.
It's not a super sophisticatedtherapy, but it's a great place
to start.
And it's a great way to help youstart becoming more aware and
more cognizant of the thoughtsthat you are having and just
kind of what your brain is evendoing.
What are your thoughts saying toyou?
(10:21):
Kind of a good place to start.
Yeah, so that's CBT.
And again, CBT is considered inthe, in the, in the therapy
world, in a medical model, wewould say, to be like the gold
standard for me.
Again, this is my personalopinion.
I feel like it's a greatstarting point.
However, let me, let me moveinto something different now.
(10:42):
So that's one, you know, onetype of therapy is that CBT.
However, we might realize thatOh wow, I'm treating someone and
I, this person has experienced asignificant amount of trauma.
Right?
We all know that word.
We hear that word all the time,right?
Meaning that, this person'sdisposition has been
(11:05):
compromised.
Maybe their sense of self hasbeen compromised.
And they're having all thesesymptoms.
Because their nervous system isconstantly reacting to these
traumatic experiences.
So there is just a bunch ofdifferent modalities that have
been created around this idea oftrauma.
(11:26):
So instead of cognitivedistortion being like, oh, we're
getting at the thought patterns,we're trying to get at the
trauma.
We're trying to help this personkind of desensitize some of that
experience of the trauma and beable to come out on the other
side.
So there's a whole slew ofdifferent.
therapies in there that youcould talk about.
So one that you'll hear is like,there's, trauma informed CBT,
(11:49):
right?
We're taking CBT, but we'remaking it trauma informed.
We could talk about, somatictherapies.
So you may have heard of EMDR.
That got really big and reallypopular in the past 10 15 years,
probably more than that.
That's Specifically designed tohelp restore, regenerate the
(12:13):
nervous system to desensitizethe trauma that gets stuck in
that nervous system so thatpeople can return to better
functioning.
So that's another, that'sanother group of therapies is
like those trauma therapies likeEMDR.
Um, let me tell you aboutanother type of therapy that,
uh, I love.
So it's called person centeredor Rogerian therapy.
(12:37):
And the idea behind this isthat, have you ever heard the
term like active listening?
So if I'm a person centeredtherapist, which I happen to be
very person centered in myapproach, as I sit down with
someone, I'm going to be zonedin on every word that they're
saying.
And so like, if you are talkingwith me and you're telling me,
(13:01):
Man, like my teacher totallyhumiliated me in that class.
I'm going to repeat that back toyou, but I'm going to be like,
your teacher just like, wow, youwere devastated.
You were absolutely devastatedby the experience.
And the person's like, I was,and I'm like, and then they
might say, yeah.
And like, man, the whole nextweek, like I couldn't stop
(13:23):
thinking about it.
And I'm like, yeah.
Ooh.
And this was like, yeah.
This, this moved into other,other areas of your life, right?
I'm almost building upon whatyou're saying every single time
to get an idea of like, How deepthis is.
So that person centered therapyis right there, right up in that
person's grill.
You are really mirroring back tothem and almost, almost
(13:44):
expanding what their experienceis.
And this can be really, reallytherapeutic for people because
it just helps them get out allthe things that haven't been
seen.
So it's almost as like we canget it out, we can see it
mirrored back to us, and we canactually realize that's what
went on.
That's what was happening to me.
That's person centered therapy.
Kristen (14:06):
I feel like it sounds like that just helps them
clarify, like you kind of givingsuggestions of how that might be
affecting them helps themclarify how it's actually even
affecting them?
Sara (14:17):
Absolutely.
100%.
Most of the time, right, peoplejust need and they want to see
clearly what their experiencewas and they haven't been able
to get a clear vision of that.
And so, yeah, I love personcentered, uh, Rogerian stuff for
that reason.
It's because people justsometimes will sit down and sob
(14:40):
and cry in front of you becausethey hadn't, they're like, I had
no idea I was so compromised bythis.
I had no idea I was so affectedby this.
And it can be so effective injust helping people let their
guard down.
Does that make sense?
Kristen (14:52):
Yeah, it seems like it'd be good for people.
I know, I know I have to talkthings out.
Just.
In my day to day, like justprocessing my life.
I have to talk it out.
And it, it sounds like that's agood for people who need that to
actually process their stuff.
Sara (15:08):
Yeah.
Kristen (15:09):
Yeah,
Sara (15:09):
that would be excellent.
And I think like when you thinkof a therapist, that's
oftentimes what you're thinkingof.
Like you're thinking of thatexchange between the two of you.
Right.
Audio Only - All Particip (15:18):
Yeah.
Sara (15:19):
So I, I, yeah, that's fun.
It's fun stuff.
another really I would say thisis a very effective and
interesting sort of therapy isthere's a whole kind of side of
therapy where, we think aboutthe person as not just like
Kristen, like if you're sittingin front of me, I'm not thinking
(15:40):
about you as just Kristen, like,like mono, like a mono mind.
You just being you, I'm actuallythinking about you as an
intricate set of different partsof you And, you're an internal
system of different piecesworking together and, you know,
it's called parts work or theother name for that is called
(16:01):
internal family systems, right?
This idea that this system isgoing on inside of you, inside
of each person.
And gosh, I might have a partthat is like really stuck with
anger.
There might be a part that wasreally.
really traumatized and the angergot really, really big.
(16:23):
So I'm really suffering withanger right now.
I just like at a drop of a hat,I just like get pissed off at
people and I get so angry.
And so what I'm going to do isI'm actually going to go in and
we're going to talk about allthese parts of you, right?
Maybe there's this, um, maybethere's all these parts
underneath the anger that youjust haven't had any access to
because this one is so big.
(16:45):
So what I'll actually help youdo as a therapist is we're going
to go in and we're going to talkto anger.
We're going to say, wow.
What happened?
What was going on for you?
You were like showing up toalmost as a protector.
You're just showing up with yourclaws ready to protect.
Because you've been hurt.
Let's talk to you and figure outwhat you need, anger, so that
you can step down for a secondand realize, oh, there's these
(17:07):
other parts of Kristen that arehere.
Oh, we haven't heard fromcompassion in a long time.
We haven't heard from peace orhope or, gosh, we haven't heard
from grief.
Grief really needs a moment.
We need to really talk to grief.
Grief has been suffering andshe's been stuck and anger's
been just taken over, right?
That's an example of internalfamily systems of parts work.
(17:29):
That can be extremely helpfulfor people that are experiencing
trauma because again, like, It'salmost like the nervous system
gets frozen and all this stuffgets frozen in, in, in the
meantime.
And so I, I love doing this withpeople because it really can
help unlock and help peopleaccess more of a fuller sense of
(17:51):
self.
They can kind of move into thespace where they're like, Oh,
I'm not actually that angrypart.
I'm actually this part.
This is, we're going to care forthese parts.
Does that make sense?
What I just explained?
It's a lot.
Kristen (18:07):
Yeah, yeah.
Um, when you're doing this withsomeone, like actively using
this therapy with them, are youtalking using kind of the same
language that you're using now?
Or is it more subtle?
Like, are you, I guess I've donetherapy where it's very like,
We're going to talk to anger.
(18:28):
We're going to talk to peace.
And I don't know if that's howyou, would it be more, uh,
roundabout?
Sara (18:35):
No.
You know, you can be superdirect.
Like, I might have someone closetheir eyes and I'm, I'm going to
tell them, Okay, we're going togo into a room and I want you to
just notice some differentpeople walking around in that
room.
And I want you to see anger.
We're going to go sit next toanger and see how it responds.
Oh, did it scoot away?
Oh yeah.
(18:55):
Look, you tell me what happenedas you approached it.
And the person might say, Oh, helike hit me in the face and ran
away, right?
And we'll start working in that,you know, very specifically in
that way.
Kristen (19:08):
Oh, that's really cool.
Sara (19:10):
So kind of interesting.
Kristen (19:11):
Yeah, I love that.
Um, like that's, that's like myjam.
That's kind of like, oh, cool.
It's my jam too.
Sara (19:20):
It's powerful for people.
It's very,
Kristen (19:22):
yeah.
No, and I feel like that's, um,kind of the basis for that.
Um, what's it called that movie?
Sara (19:32):
Oh, yeah, it feels a little inside out.
Yeah, I can totally see that.
Yeah, it's interesting.
Kristen (19:40):
Yeah, so, was there any other, were there any other
therapies you wanted to
Sara (19:45):
address?
There's, okay, how about this?
Let's talk about narrativetherapy for a second.
Just because I love this one,this is another one that, this
is maybe not as common as likeCBT, but the idea behind
narrative therapy is that youare helping someone author their
(20:06):
life story.
And so, You know, if, if we, ifwe show up and we do an
assessment, what I'm trying toget out of your assessment is
I'm trying to find out what isthe, what is your life
narrative?
Like, where did you start outlow?
How did you grow?
Where did you get a space ofresilience in your life?
(20:30):
And.
You know, where are you in thatstory arc right now?
Are you like in that stuck placewhere you're like, what's going
to happen to the character?
Is she going to survive?
Is she going to die?
It's like that, that, that partin the movie where you're like,
Oh my gosh, what's happening?
Like, or are you in that part oflike, no, things are resolving.
I'm gaining my strength here.
(20:51):
Like I'm figuring it out.
So you're really helping someonealmost mythologize their life
experience and helping themrealize, Oh, I'm like this
heroic.
Person on this journey and I'mdoing this and where am I in my
journey?
Um, Jordan Peterson kind ofalludes to this stuff.
(21:12):
I feel like like with selfauthoring self authorship
Kristen (21:15):
Yeah,
Sara (21:16):
but this it's narrative therapy.
So That's another really coolone that I feel like people just
need.
People need it, right?
Like, they need to be told, Hey,like, you're a good, you're a
good character.
Like, you're a good one here.
And like, let's just help yousee where you're at so you can
have some compassion foryourself, you know?
Kristen (21:37):
Do you feel like it's more working with self awareness
or, like, archetypes?
Or, does that make sense?
Sara (21:46):
Yes, yes.
I think archetypes candefinitely come into narrative
therapy.
right, like seeing yourself as,again, like that heroic person
or like maybe you're seeingyourself as like, wow, I'm a,
I'm a self sacrificing personor, oh man, I've taken on like a
savior complex or, I've, youcan, you can definitely like
(22:10):
zoom out and see yourself asthis like character, if that
makes sense.
Kristen (22:15):
But the goal is kind of self awareness and seeing
yourself more clearly, I guess.
Sara (22:21):
Exactly.
another, another way that youcan approach therapy is in a
very, uh, it's like a verytopical manner.
So for example, I might havesomeone come to me for grief and
it's really, we're reallyfocused on just grieving the
(22:41):
process of grieving theexperience that you're having in
grieving.
Um, you know, like maybe we areusing a little bit of these
other therapies I mentioned,right?
Maybe we're like writing yourstory to understand and help you
process some of this grief,right?
(23:02):
So therapy can also be verytopical, right?
We're doing grief work.
we're doing dream work.
We're focusing on your dreams.
That's another interesting one,right?
Where like, This, it's not verycommon.
I would say like the traditionallike average therapist is not
going to be trained in dreamwork, but maybe you're just
(23:22):
really feeling like, wow, mysubconscious is telling me
things.
And it's, it keeps talking to methrough my dreams and I don't
know what to do about it.
Right.
And so you, you sit down withyour therapist and we're going
to like, have you write themdown.
We're going to look for thethemes that are coming up.
We are going to see if we cantry to like interpret some of
the stuff that you're habituallygetting and that maybe is
(23:44):
habitually like distressing toyou.
Right.
So that's another topical waythat you could work in therapy.
Dreams.
I
Kristen (23:50):
love that.
Cause I think we think of dreamsas being so like out there, like
it's kind of like anybody whoworks with dreams seems kind of.
Maybe not credible or something,but, but it's totally a thing in
therapy.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, it makes sense.
Cause it's your subconscious.
sorting things out and we knowthat, right?
Yes, we do.
So, yeah, that would make sense,I guess, but we could, we could
(24:15):
do a whole, I would love to do adeep dive into dream therapy,
any, like, I love dreams.
Sara (24:19):
And like, along with dream work, you'll also probably hear
the term depth psychology orJungian psychology, which is
very much dream work archetypes.
If you're familiar with, like,Carl Jung, the Swiss
psychologist.
There's really a whole likemethod around his work and it's
(24:44):
very much non traditional, notwhat you're going to get with
like a normal CBT therapist,right?
But that's a whole nother realmthat you could bop into, which
is really fun.
A lot of people, Maybe evenhighly sensitive people are
really drawn to some of those,right?
Even as I'm talking, you mighthave noticed yourself being
like, Oh, I like that one,right?
Like, I want this one.
(25:05):
I feel like the personality ofthe individual plays so much
into this, because some people,you know, like they do some CBT
and they're like, I feel so muchbetter, like, I'm okay, I'm
gonna be fine.
And other people are like, mmmm, that was not it.
You know, like, like, I'msitting over here traumatized,
like that does not do anything,right?
Like, please do something else.
(25:26):
And, and, and some people needthat.
And that's great.
And that's why there's all thesedifferent sort of approaches
that we have that we can use.
Kristen (25:36):
So is that because We've been talking about kind of
these like EMDR, CBT, all theseacronyms, and then I know some
of it, it's based off of CarlJung, and then like Freud, and,
but those are all offshoots ofjust kind of their philosophies.
Is that right?
Or are they're like, if you'relooking for a therapist, and
(25:56):
you're wanting to find whattherapies they do, are we mostly
looking at these littleacronyms?
Or will they have like, youngin?
I don't know, like, how
Sara (26:10):
does that?
Um, so like, for example, ifyou're in psychology today, and
you're looking at someone'sprofile, it'll have like a whole
list.
And you may see from the mostcommon, right?
CBT to like the most unique, andso you can really just ask
someone you, when you're likeinterviewing and you're calling
(26:32):
someone, just be like, yo, doyou do parts work?
Like I heard this thing calledinternal family systems and it
sounded really interesting.
Like, do you do that?
it's yeah, you're not going tofind a lot of people that are
like, oh yeah, I'm a, I'm aspecifically trained Yungian
dreams work therapist, right?
That's like a very niche thing,which you can find.
(26:52):
But that's not, that's not likethe main thing that you're going
to find it that most people aregoing to be interested in.
Kristen (26:57):
well, you were talking about personalities.
I kind of, I think it'sinteresting how we, you know,
we're all drawn to differenttherapies.
But I was wondering also, Iheard something recently about
men process.
It's kind of the differencebetween men and women, I guess,
more than personalities.
But.
(27:18):
We're all just the fact thatwe're drawn to different
therapies and what might workbetter for some people.
Um, so, I heard, and I don'tknow, I didn't verify this, I'm
not sure if it's true, but Iheard that men's cortisol levels
go up when they talk about theirday, and women's go down.
Audio Only - All P (27:36):
Interesting.
Kristen (27:36):
I don't know if it's true.
Audio Only - All P (27:38):
Interesting.
Kristen (27:39):
But I've talked to some men where they're like, yeah.
And I'm like, I wonder if the,if the approach, I feel like
some men avoid therapy becausethey're like, I don't want to go
talk about my crap.
Like that sounds re traumatizingor, you know, just wondering if
(28:00):
you have any thoughts on like,if you're someone who doesn't
want to rehash things.
What's a good therapy?
Or do you feel like that's anissue?
Sara (28:11):
Yeah.
No, I think that's reallyinsightful and interesting.
there are plenty of people that,are extremely traumatized by
going to therapy because theyhave to consistently rehash
things.
And we don't want to do that topeople.
Like, frankly, that's oppositeof what we do.
We don't, we don't want to doany harm to people.
(28:32):
We want to do the minimal amountof, you know, distress making
that we possibly can.
And so I really do think that'sactually like a very insightful
question.
And there are people that, theyare very verbal.
And some, again, that, thattends to be like, yeah, women.
(28:54):
But also like, there's a lot ofvariety in this, right?
Like we're not going to like putanyone in a box, but if you're a
verbal person, that's good toknow.
If you were a physical person,for example, like I'm a dancer,
I grew up as a dancer and I doyoga.
That really, really helps me.
The movement makes such a bigdifference.
(29:15):
Um, do you know that aboutyourself?
You might go into like a talktherapy session and be like, do
you do EMDR?
EMDR.
Sounds like, EMDR is not likemovement, but it's actually
considered a somatic or bodybased therapy.
So what you're gonna get in yoursession, and you're gonna be
doing eye movements, or you'regonna be doing tapping, and
you're not gonna have to sitthere and rehash every single
(29:36):
detail verbally.
You're actually gonna like, hiton something small, desensitize
it, do something with yourhands, do something with your
eyes, and feel different andfeel better.
So that's super helpful to knowthat about yourself, right?
Or like, are you a writer?
You might, you might need to do,you might really be able to do
(29:57):
some really good writing,journaling, and then working
with your therapist on whatyou've been writing about or
writing poetry, right?
Like maybe you're an artist.
There's really good expressivearts therapists, right?
That you can actually, there'sa, there's such a therapy called
sandtray.
You go and you actually workwith this tray of sand and like
these different little objectsand toys and placing things
(30:20):
inside the sand tray, right?
There's all these different waysthat can be so specific to the
needs that you have.
And if you have questions or ifyou're just like, I don't know
what I'm looking for, but I needsomething that hits this, ask
people about that.
Ask the therapist about that.
People can direct you to somereally, really good
practitioners that can help you.
Kristen (30:40):
Yeah, I like that you dove into just a little bit
about EMDR.
Cause I feel like like you'resaying it's so popular and I, I
like it's taken the world bystorm.
No, that's dramatic.
But I just hear about it all thetime and people are like, that
really actually helped me.
Like it was so.
impactful.
And I didn't really think of itas a, like a less verbal therapy
(31:05):
or like a somatic therapy even.
Audio Only - All Participan (31:07):
But
Kristen (31:10):
yeah, I guess we've talked about this before about
the, the bilateral stimulationand the lady who came up with
that.
But would you want to just talkabout that for just a sec?
Cause I just think it's reallyinteresting to know how that
works.
Sara (31:25):
So EMDR, right?
I expressed it as like a somaticsoma, meaning body, right?
accessing our psyche through themeans of the body.
and just as, just as aclarifying thing, I have
received a fundamental leveltraining of EMDR.
I'm not like a masterpractitioner, but I'm authorized
to use it with people.
(31:46):
so this idea of like bilateralstimulation, like what in the
world is that?
It's this, basically this ideathat we have two lobes in our
brain, right?
We have these different sides.
And when we are in a traumatizedstate, our nervous system, Is,
is going to go into just likethis, almost this freeze where
(32:07):
our lobes are not talking toeach other.
And so it's as if whatever hasjust been experienced is just
going to get frozen in time.
Stuck and whenever we run intoanything that reminds us of
that, it's just like it's justgoing to crunch.
It's going to hurt.
And so this idea that we can usethis bilateral right two sided
(32:28):
stimulation.
So, for example, this doing thisis a bilateral stimulation
walking down the street left,right, left, right.
is bilateral.
It's moving those differentsides of the body, which is
accessing the different lobes inthe brain.
Doing that has a really calmingeffect.
So we can actually, move throughsomething traumatic while doing
(32:51):
these movements, while doingmaybe even eye movements from
side to side, so that it's goingto lower our response of our
nervous system.
And we can kind of almost likemove through it and come out on
the other side.
so like for me, I can't think ofhow many walks I've gone on with
friends and just talked aboutstuff.
(33:11):
And then I end the walk and I'mlike, wow, you just feel better
if you go on a walk and talk.
That's an example of bilateralstimulation.
Right?
You just, like, moved throughsomething and you got that
movement in, you got yourself totalk about it and talk through
it and come out on the otherside and just, like, feel a lot
better.
Kristen (33:32):
I think that's why running or hiking is so
therapeutic for a lot of people.
Like, it's like, I just gotta goon a run and I just gotta, like,
let my brain process things.
Audio Only - All Participa (33:41):
Yes.
Kristen (33:43):
Yeah.
Yeah, no, that's helpful tounderstand how it actually works
because I think we see allthese.
It's different therapies andit's kinda like, okay, Yeah.
Right.
I don't, I don't understand it,you know?
Sara (33:55):
Yeah.
So, and like, maybe for a secondif that's okay, I'll talk about
yoga
Kristen (33:59):
love for you to talk about yoga
Sara (34:01):
so like in my personal journey, for me, yoga became
really, really important, as away to use my body, to have a
somatic experience and, again,do like what we just talked
about with EMDR, right?
Like kind of like moving throughsome of this difficulty and
(34:25):
coming out on the other side.
yoga is definitely.
Can give you access to that aswell.
So I think in the United States,yoga is thought of as an
exercise and as fitness.
And that is not traditionallyhow it is thought of, when I did
my yoga certification in mytraining, I was lucky enough to
(34:48):
train with someone who really,really had an extremely firm
grasp on this idea that it's amind, body, spirit experience.
And that if you treat it assuch, it can just be really
powerful.
and so like my approach to yogais.
(35:08):
a lot less about the importanceof the movements that I'm doing,
and it's more about moving in away that feels good and
creating.
A good experience in the body.
And I think like we, we gothrough so many bad experiences
in our bodies because we'reembodied all the time.
We're always with ourselves andwe don't really get a break from
(35:29):
our body when we sleep.
it's like, Oh, I'm away, butwe're still, we're still here.
But we have so many likedifficult emotional experiences
in our bodies that sometimes itjust it's not safe to be in
them.
And so we just experience a lotof like dissociation and numbing
out and just problems, right?
Like the anxiety, thedepression, everything.
(35:50):
And so learning to create apositive experience in your body
and knowing that you have thepower to find peacefulness in
your body is just like It's,it's gold.
It's gold.
And I love that for myself, andI love that for people.
And so like, if you want to dosomething therapeutic that's not
this talk therapy experience,you might go and try, like,
(36:13):
taking a meditation class.
Or like a gentle yoga class.
And go and try, and again, don'tlook for the fitness stuff.
Look for someone where you'relike, I'm looking for some mind
body spirit.
Right?
And, and that sort of stuffoftentimes can just be really
helpful.
Or sometimes, I'll say this too,they can bring up things for you
(36:36):
that can freak you out a littlebit.
And you're like, I don't knowwhat just happened, but I'm
feeling weird.
And then you have your talktherapist and you're like,
something's happening.
What do I do with this?
Right.
And they might be like,
Audio Only - All Participan (36:45):
Oh,
Sara (36:47):
let's work with that.
Good job.
Like way to be aware of this.
This is a thing for you.
Right.
So this can be like really goodin tandem with some talk
therapy, even for people.
Kristen (36:57):
I was about to ask you right before you said that, do
you feel like it's a good Yes.
Because things come up and thenyou have to process them and you
don't always know how.
Right.
Yeah.
Sara (37:05):
I dunno what to do with that.
Kristen (37:06):
Yeah.
Yeah, yeah.
I feel like all these practiceswe learn in there, like
journaling or you know, canreally help you just in your day
to day.
Like, I'm going to yoga and I'mgonna see what comes up and I'm
gonna journal about it, and thenI'm gonna go to therapy and talk
about it if I can't, you know?
Sara (37:25):
Yeah.
Ideally, some people just livetheir lives this way.
This is how they've learned tofunction.
And because they can do that,they're healthier.
They might be more sensitive.
They might be a very sensitivesoul.
They might feel a lot.
They might experience a lot.
They might've had a lot oftrauma, but they are able to
work with their bodies, theirspirits.
(37:47):
To help them move through someof this stuff.
Maybe they have goodcommunities, right, that also
help them with that.
And so, like, people that can dothat for themselves, it's so
powerful.
And I just want people to knowthat, like, you can learn that.
That's something you can learn.
You can move into that area.
You can learn those skills.
(38:10):
And you can actually find a safeperson that can help you calm
down a little bit.
Enough to be able to do that inyour life.
Like, there's really so much,space for you to heal.
That's
Kristen (38:20):
beautiful.
That's what we're here to,that's what I'm hoping to do
with this podcast is help peoplelike just see that there are
options for them and that theycan heal and they can be okay.
So I love that.
I feel like that's a good, didwe cover everything you wanted
(38:40):
to cover?
Because you have so many thingsthat are great, but like, yeah,
I think that's a great stoppingpoint.
Honestly.
Thank you.
It is too.
Yeah.
Um, do you, you mentioned, uh,what did you say?
You mentioned if you want to doa deep dive on some of these
other, like, um, modalities, youcan do that.
Do you have any right off thetop of your head?
(39:02):
If you don't, it's fine.
But do you have any, likeanywhere people can go or would
you just say to Google it?
Or what would you say if peoplewant to learn more?
I would just
Sara (39:10):
say there's a bajillion and one psychology podcasts.
If you want to, search any ofthose things specifically,
There's some really good stuffthat you can listen to.
Um, there's some really greatbooks you can read.
I could go into tons ofresources, but I don't know if I
want.
Kristen (39:27):
Okay.
well, if you have any that youwant to mention, if there's
anything that's really standingout, because I was going to ask
you next what, what books orresources you would recommend.
So there's one you want torecommend because you like it,
but also related to that wouldbe great, Absolutely.
Sara (39:40):
Well, let me tell you this, out of like all the
modalities that I've described,I personally do a lot of person
centered therapy, narrativetherapy, I do internal family
systems, I do some EMDR, I dosome yoga, maybe a little bit of
depth psychology, Jungian andexistential psychology here and
(40:03):
there, right?
and so anyway, just books thatI, that I like around those, I
would definitely read the book,The Wisdom of Anxiety by Cheryl
Paul.
She is excellent.
also if, if any of those areresonating with you, you might
like the book, The HighlySensitive Person by Elaine
(40:24):
Aaron.
We didn't get into HSP.
We could do another time.
the practitioner that created,um, IFS, Internal Family
Systems, parts work that Italked about, his name is
Richard Schwartz.
And he has some really goodstuff, some really good books.
I would search Richard Schwartz.
(40:46):
anything from him is almostgoing to give you like, You
could learn how to kind ofjournal, journal some of that
parts work and learn how toactually do it with yourself.
So, I would look up him, Ithink, honestly, that's like
four resources, so maybe I'lljust stop it.
But those, those are great,yeah.
Start with.
Kristen (41:05):
I was just saying, if you want to send me any links
for, if you have anythingspecific, I'll post the links
below.
But I just want to ask youreally quick about, wisdom of
anxiety.
Just explain it a little bit.
Cause you've recommended it tome and I really have loved
everything I've read in it.
why do you recommend it?
How does that help people?
Sara (41:22):
Yeah, I love this book.
This is one of the books thathas totally changed things for
me as a person and as atherapist, the way that I
practice.
But the idea is a little bit,around it's rooted in depth
psychology actually, and in kindof that like Jungian tradition,
and it's this idea You know, weoftentimes think of anxiety as
(41:43):
this thing to be medicated awayor really just like anything we
can do to like ignore it ordistract from it.
And, and really what anxiety is,is just the fire alarm.
It's the messenger.
And it contains deep wisdom andunderneath that anxiety, if we
can get underneath it and we canget to some of the messages that
(42:06):
are kind of hidden under there,there's like, it's like mining
for so much goodness.
There's so much goodnessunderneath there that if you can
get to that and get away fromthis, idea that anxiety is
something to just like, Oh, likewe hate it.
We hate it.
No, no, no, no.
This is a doorway into a verydeep space that can be very
healing for you..
(42:27):
So that's what that book isabout.
It's so helpful for people thatwant to look at their anxiety is
something that actually meanssomething, not as just the
senseless experience that theykeep having.
So a lot of people resonate withthat.
You might not resonate with thatin which case, that's totally
fine.
But.
I would, I would say that's oneto look into for sure.
Kristen (42:48):
Yeah, I feel like it really takes out the, like,
takes the anxiety out ofanxiety, where it's just like,
oh, oh, it's just a message.
Okay.
We don't have to freak out aboutthis.
Yeah.
Sara (43:00):
Yeah.
Oh gosh.
I feel like to end, it's like,we're all, we're all a little
bit, we're all a little messedup.
We're all a little weird.
We're all human.
We can all use some tune ups.
Like, none of us will ever becompletely healthy.
None of us will ever becompletely self sufficient in
our mental health.
And so I just feel like it'ssuch a blessing to ask for help
(43:23):
when you need it, to get it whenyou need it, and to just believe
that you can also, you can alsoactually make good progress.
You can actually help otherpeople.
That are, that are sufferingtoo.
And, you know, we're all justhere trying to figure it out.
Right.
Like none of us are omniscientor omnipotent or we're just
therapists.
Like I'm just here doing what Ican.
(43:44):
And, you know, it's good stuff.
Kristen (43:47):
So, right.
Yeah.
No, I think that's great.
Great message.
Yes.
Okay.
Well, gosh, thank you so much,Sarah.
I'm so grateful and we'll haveto just, we'll just have to have
you back and talk about someother fun things now that we've
like covered the basics.
Some different things.
(44:09):
Well it's been a delight,
Sara (44:10):
so thank you for having me of course.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying WhollyEmpowered, share it with that
friend or on your socials, youcan also hit the follow button
if you want to keep up with thelatest episodes.
Until next time, stay empowered.
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