December 14, 2024 • 41 mins
Maddi Mosher shares her experiences as a wilderness therapy counselor for teens. With a bit of levity and a few funny stories thrown in we discuss how this kind of therapy works, the end goals, and pros and cons when choosing if this is a good option for your teen.
It’s a great discussion that applies to each of us regardless of whether you have teens or not. I hope you enjoy it as much as we did!
Maddi worked for Wingate Wilderness Therapy, which is no longer operating, but if you have interest in checking out other options you can look into the Anasazi Foundation.
https://anasazi.org/
If you are finding value in this podcast leave a 5 star review and comment below!
You can follow me (Kristen Russell, LMT) via instagram at https://www.instagram.com/sakalyamassage/
If you would like to get in touch you can email me at kristen@sakalyamassage.com
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Transcript
Episode Transcript
Available transcripts are automatically generated. Complete accuracy is not guaranteed.
(00:00):
I'm Kristen Russell, and this isThe Wholly Empowered Podcast,
where we dive into all thingsholistic healing and open our
minds, hearts, and paradigms tonew ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
Kristen (00:16):
We are here with Maddi Mosher today and Maddi is one of
my favorite people.
We lived together for a longtime.
Your degree is in psychology,right?
Yeah.
And you've done work withchildren in, children, like
teens.
It's always been teens, right?
Yeah.
in like a therapeutic setting inlike a, what would you call
(00:39):
that?
Where you started?
Maddi (00:40):
Yeah, so I started in residential treatment.
Kristen (00:43):
Residential treatment.
Maddi (00:44):
It's kind of like a home setting where there's a bunch of
kids that have, A variety ofbackgrounds that have difficulty
with their mental health, ordifficulty with their family, or
different situations.
And that's what I started with,was Residential, and then I
moved to Wilderness Therapy,which is my favorite.
Kristen (01:04):
And that's what I want to focus on today more than
anything, because I think it'sjust, really interesting.
And I just have lots ofquestions for you.
So yeah, we'll cover all thethings about wilderness therapy.
And so that's Maddie.
Did I miss anything?
Maddi (01:21):
No, that's me.
Okay.
Kristen (01:24):
So, Okay, so you started in residential and then
you moved to wilderness.
And what, what got you startedin this?
What made you interested in it?
How I heard about it was I was,I served a mission for Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter daySaints and One of the girls on
my mission, a fellow missionary,her parents actually ran the
(01:50):
company that I ended up workingfor after I graduated college,
but she had been through theprogram herself and we talked
about it and she was like, thisis so cool.
And I'm like, yeah, I would loveto camp for that long and just
have no one care about it.
So I love the outdoors.
I love the idea of just beingfree outside.
(02:14):
And then adding therapy to it.
I was like what could be betterthan that.
So that's kind of what got methinking about it at the time.
I didn't think I was actuallygoing to go into psychology.
So it was just like a fun ideaor fun thing.
To think about but then Iapplied right out of college
right after I got my degree inpsychology, and they didn't get
(02:36):
back to me very quick.
And so I started in residentialdid that for a little bit.
And then I emailed them again.
And I was like, Hey, do you needanybody?
I didn't even send myapplication.
And again, I was just like,Hello.
And they were like, Oh, yeah,we're looking for people.
It's cool that you're stillinterested.
And so that's how I got actuallyto work for the company that I
(02:57):
worked for.
I feel like you just reallythrive in this environment.
What do you think contributes tothat?
Maddi (03:04):
I think part of it is that I'm really optimistic, but
I also like everything aboutbeing outside of nature is just
my happy space.
So I'm going into an environmentthat is just very easy for me.
And maybe that's not so much forother people.
So I was in a space that wasalready.
(03:26):
a safe space for me doingsomething that I already felt
really comfortable with becauseI had just gotten my bachelor's
degree in psychology.
And so I felt like"I know somethings".
So it was easy for me to go intowilderness therapy and be like,
(03:47):
okay, I understand kind of wherethese kids are coming from.
From having previous experiencewith my own family and their
mental health with my friends.
And so I just felt like I had agood background of both cause I
grew up being outside.
I grew up with people that hadmental health problems and so it
(04:08):
felt pretty natural to me and soI just was optimistic and had a
lot of fun with it and hopefullythat helped people.
If not, I had a fun time.
Kristen (04:20):
It's kind of tailored to you in a way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like if I was oneof the teens and you were my
counselor I think yourconfidence would give me a lot
of confidence.
Because I'm someone who's not ascomfortable camping outside.
And so I'm sure, I'm sure thatwas helpful.
But I just want to get into thiswilderness therapy as a therapy
(04:43):
and kind of the day to day, butultimately what I want to get at
and the goal here is.
Looking at this as a therapy, isit beneficial?
Is it something that you, feellike you'd recommend?
Cause and that's, what's thecompany called again that you
worked for?
Maddi (05:02):
The company that I worked for, it was called Wingate
Wilderness Therapy.
They no longer work with youth,they just have an adult program
now, and so the name has changedslightly too, but I worked with
Wingate, and it's based insouthern Utah, in Escalante
National Monument.
Kristen (05:21):
And it's really similar, I think a lot of people
are familiar with Anasazi.
Maddi (05:24):
Yeah.
So the guy who created theprogram that I worked for
actually worked for Anasazi forquite a few years and helped
develop a lot of otherwilderness programs in Utah
before he created his ownwilderness program, and all of
them are based off of Anasazi.
And their philosophy andideology.
Kristen (05:47):
And it's not based on cause then you type like
everything's religious.
It's not, it's not religious,right.
It's just like, yeah.
Maddi (05:54):
So it's not any religious based, uh, mostly it's based on
relational therapy.
So that's.
A lot of it is how we relate toeach other, how these kids can
rebuild a relationship withtheir family and their parents,
because that's a lot of thereasons that kids end up in
therapeutic programs is becausethey don't have good
(06:17):
relationships within their ownfamily.
And so the main goal of bothprograms when I did residential
and when I did wilderness was toreunify the family, like.
The kids hadn't been courtordered or anything to be here,
but it was mostly their parentsbeing like, Hey, I'm at my wit's
(06:39):
end.
I don't know how to get to thiskid or we're just not working
well together.
And then for the parents and thekids to take accountability for
what they did in theirrelationship, they created it so
that they no longer had goodcommunication.
And so that's mainly what theprograms are for.
(07:00):
And that's a lot of.
what Anasazi and a lot oftherapeutic programs do is
trying to create environmentswhere families can come back
together.
And even if it's not perfect,they can work together and still
be a cohesive family.
Kristen (07:17):
Wow.
That's really cool.
Maddi (07:19):
Yeah.
Kristen (07:19):
So the kids who are coming, you said, it wasn't
court ordered necessarily, butit's usually probably they're
being sent maybe against theirwill.
Like,
Maddi (07:27):
yeah.
Yeah.
So More often than not, it's theparents choice to send their
kids to these differentprograms.
And Every once in a while youget lucky, and it's the kid's
choice to be there, and whenit's the kid's choice, it works
so much better.
Like, these kids work reallyhard to make things happen, they
want to get stuff done, theywant to change, or they want
(07:49):
their situation to change.
So, that may be that they don'tnecessarily feel like everything
was their fault.
Which is usually true, but theyplay a part.
And so, they would just workreally hard, and usually their
parents would work really hardtoo, because they would
recognize, like, just when thekids choose, their therapy goes
(08:10):
so much better.
But most of the time, that's notwhat happens.
It's usually a parent, or bothparents, or grandparents, or
just family, not being able tocope together, like, work things
out.
And so the parents either bringtheir kids or use a third party
(08:31):
company to escort their kids towilderness therapy or
residential treatment centers.
And if the parents bring them,that also is more beneficial
than a third party bringing yourkids.
all of those ways, that's howkids usually get to our program.
Every once in a while, we wouldget a kid who, it wasn't
(08:55):
necessarily their choice to bethere, but it was kind of this,
or maybe do something else,relating to like court orders.
So they had done somethingillegal, whether that be to do
with drugs, to do with, I don'teven know, usually it's drugs.
And so, their options wereeither to come and do a
(09:18):
therapeutic program, get offdrugs, get away from that kind
of situation, and then workthrough the process of getting
clean and not being aroundpeople that make it hard for
them to not be on drugs.
And so that happens sometimes,but most of the time it's
parents.
(09:40):
Not knowing what to do withtheir kids and sending them to
these different programs.
Kristen (09:45):
So it could be kind of a it's not really like a drug
detox thing or anything, but itcould be kind of Yeah.
That could be a factor, I guess.
Yeah.
In some cases.
Maddi (09:57):
Just with experience, a lot of kids that have mental
health problems, that young alsodabbled in ways to self
medicate, so a lot of them wouldhave.
other problems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is
Kristen (10:14):
sad, but like so real.
No, totally.
So walk us through like how theweek goes.
So they get there, I'm guessingon a weekend, you spend X amount
of days.
Like how does that, what doesthe day to day look like?
Maddi (10:30):
So what happens is they can show up on any day of the
week.
They could show up at eighto'clock in the morning or eight
o'clock at night.
They could show up whenever.
And it's just a surprise.
It's not truly a surprise, butit kind of feels that way for
just the trail staff.
So I was a trail staff and sothese kids can show up kind of
(10:50):
whenever for us.
For the company though, theyhave specific days that they
would come in and they wouldwork with people in the office
to get them.
all set with their gear soeveryone would have a backpack,
they'd have clothes, they'd havefood, whatever they needed to be
out in the wildernessbackpacking for up to a couple
months.
Kristen (11:12):
So like, okay, yeah, so it's not like a week long thing
every time or, you know, it'sjust very like, you're just out
there and they bring them toyou.
Maddi (11:19):
Yeah, so our shifts worked as where I worked two
weeks on two weeks off.
So I was out there for for surefor two weeks.
Sometimes I work three weeks,but that didn't happen very
often.
But two weeks is how long staffwould be out there at a time.
So some kids would be there fromlike three weeks To the longest
(11:40):
I ever had The kid chose to stayfor six months, rather than go
to residential afterwards,because a lot of wilderness
therapy, and then you go to aresidential.
This kid chose, hey, I don'twant to go to a residential, I
excel here, And so they chose tostay for six months.
So that's not the norm.
At least it wasn't the norm formy company that I worked with so
(12:03):
the kids would get all geared upand then they usually came out
on a hiking day usually four tofive days a week.
We would go on hikes and Whatthat means is they would hike
with our backpacks Anywhere fromthree I worked with the girls
mostly so we would hike three toseven miles But if you're
(12:25):
working with boys or the adults,they hiked more five to ten
miles every day, so the kidswould come out and they had no
idea if they were going to hikethree miles that day, just
coming in, or if we were goingto have a seven mile hike.
And we didn't tell the kids themileage that we were going to
hike that day until we got tocamp that night.
(12:48):
And we would do that five days aweek, and then we would have
what we called like layovers,and so we would have two days
camping in the same spot, and wewouldn't hike unless they wanted
to.
Sometimes we would go on littleadventures, And they were fun,
like we would go up canyons sothat they could hear their
echoes and we could scream inthe canyon, or we would go to
(13:10):
where there was petroglyphs, andso we would show the kids where
these cool petroglyphs were, andthen tell them, please don't
scratch on any of the rocks,like things like that.
But usually we just hung aroundin camp and we would do crafts.
We taught them how to makemoccasins.
I taught some girls how to makeponchos.
We did a lot of jewelry making,we had, I don't know.
(13:33):
We did a lot of stuff on layoverdays, because those days were
when their therapists wouldcome, and if we weren't busy
doing something, then that'swhen arguments also happen.
So we tried to keep likeactivities and games going.
We played, it's like theprecursor to lacrosse.
So we would teach them how tomake little lacrosse sticks, and
(13:55):
it's like, two balls on astring, and you would fling them
at each other.
Eventually I made my own.
We wanted them to see that youcould make anything that you
needed.
That they could create anythingthat they needed.
And they got really confidentliving outside and being able to
make whatever they needed,literally.
(14:16):
And so, we would play that everyonce in a while and everyone got
super into it.
And maybe it was just because Iwas super competitive, but I was
always like, everybody's got toplay.
My team's gonna win, even thoughit didn't always win, but I
would sure hype us up.
We had a lot of fun on layoverdays.
did group therapy on layoverdays.
(14:41):
The director would come out andvisit with us on layover days.
So then he would come and teachus a skill like how to find clay
out in the middle of the desertand turn it into pottery or how
to make arrowheads, just likerandom different skills.
And then it was a good daybecause we learned a lot of
(15:03):
wilderness skills and we taughtthat to the kids.
So.
I'm capable of making fire outof sticks, but I'm not good at
it.
But so I got to teach kids howto do a bow and drill to make
fire.
And.
So sometimes on layover dayswe'd practice that, because
that's how we lit almost all ofour fires, is by bow drills.
(15:25):
And that's kind of how our weekgoes.
Kristen (15:28):
So lots of kind of like play therapy, I guess?
Yeah.
And then they bring therapistsin and it's just a lot of
variety, seems like.
And then just being outside, Ifeel like it's therapeutic in
itself.
Maddi (15:39):
Yeah.
Kristen (15:42):
So do you feel like it was an effective approach to
therapy?
Did you feel like the kids wouldcome away changed?
I, apparently I was thinkingthey were just out there for a
little while, but it's like,they could be completely living
in the wilderness for months.
But,
Maddi (16:01):
so it definitely creates a bunch of feral little animals.
I loved it.
I think overall it's verybeneficial.
Like it was hard for all of thekids that did it.
But I think after workingresidential and then working in
wilderness, I definitely likedWilderness better because it's
(16:24):
so much more the kids choosingto do it themselves.
So, like, if you don't want toclean your room, you don't have
to, it's a sleeping bag.
No one's gonna care.
I'll tell you the ants andsnakes might crawl in it, and if
you don't want them to be inyour sleeping bag, go shake it
(16:45):
out, go put it in your backpackthings like that.
But it's all their own choice,mostly, once they get out there.
It wasn't their choice usuallyto be there, but once they're
there.
everything that they choose todo, it's on them.
I'm here to support you inpositive choices.
I'm not here to support you inany negative ones, but if you
(17:05):
want to improve anything in yourlife, whether that be drawing,
whether that be just makingjewelry, yeah, if it's positive,
I'm all in.
If you want to be better friendswith someone in our group and
you don't know how to do thatbecause you've never had a good
relationship with another humanbefore, let's work on that.
Let's work on how we talk toeach other.
It's like, we don't want to becalling people names.
We don't want to be likenegative always in how we talk.
(17:30):
And so we would just work ondifferent aspects of self
improvement.
And it was a lot of the time ledby the kids themselves, where
they would see something and belike, I'm tired of this about
myself, or as staff, we couldsee they were struggling with
something and be like, Hey, I'mDo you want to improve on that?
(17:52):
Or do you dislike this part ofyour life?
And would you like to make itdifferent or better and then
work on it from there?
So it was more led by the kidsinstead of an adult coming in
and being like, this is what youhave to work on.
This is, What your real problemis.
(18:14):
And you have to do all thesesteps to get to this point.
It was more, yeah, your lifereally sucks.
Part of that's your fault, butlet's work on some things and
you can get to a better placeand that's just where we want
you to be.
We don't have any huge grandioseend goal for you.
(18:35):
We just want you to be betterthan you were yesterday.
And so that part of wildernesstherapy and the program that I
worked with.
was very appealing to me andmade.
I don't know.
I felt like wilderness therapywas superior.
Kristen (18:53):
Well, there's like very natural consequences.
Like you were saying, like thesleeping bag versus you have to
clean your room.
And it's like, why, you know?
And then outside it's like,well, you can just deal with the
consequences.
Maddi (19:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like at 2am when you wake meup, because there's a bunch of
ants in your sleeping bag.
I'm going to tell you to just goshake it out and go back to
sleep.
So yeah, you can just learn fromthe consequences yourself.
Kristen (19:20):
Like nature takes care of it at wilderness therapy, so
Maddi (19:23):
yeah,
Kristen (19:24):
yeah.
Maddi (19:26):
And then I feel like it gave the kids so much more
confidence because they'remaking decisions for themselves.
And they may not have been in asituation before where they made
as many decisions forthemselves.
And so it was kind of cool tojust watch them become more and
more confident in theirabilities to be a feral child.
(19:50):
Also just their abilities ingeneral, like to communicate
their abilities, to just feelsafe in their own surroundings
and that they recognize thatthey created that for
themselves, which that's reallycool.
Kristen (20:02):
That's cool.
I feel like it's a very, yeah,it seems like a very supportive
confidence building.
Like when I thought of itbefore, it seemed very like, I'm
going to throw you in thewilderness.
Good luck.
You know, and I feel likethere's an element of that, but
it's not, it just seems likeit's a lot more just supportive
than I was thinking, you know?
Maddi (20:18):
Yeah.
It's like when you have a goodgroup, it's like having group
therapy every day because allthe kids are working together to
do what they're supposed to bedoing.
They want to become better.
They want.
for everyone in their group towork cohesively because that
makes everyone's lives easierbecause if one person decides,
(20:42):
Hey, I'm not going to doanything.
Everyone else has to work harderto help make that person get
stuff done.
Like if not everyone collectsfirewood, that's a lot of
firewood for one person tocollect.
So everyone can be warm.
Or if one person chooses not tosleep correctly in sleep line,
(21:03):
then it makes everyone sleepfarther away so that everyone's
a little bit more cold.
No one's next to each other.
So it's cool to see them maketheir own choices, but then as a
group to recognize if I do mypart, that makes life easier for
everyone.
And then take that back to theirfamilies and realize if I'm
(21:24):
doing my part, okay.
That's going to make everyone'slife easier, including my own.
Kristen (21:29):
That's cool.
Yeah.
That's a really cool takeaway.
And I know you didn't get to,you probably haven't been able
to talk with, because I know youcan't talk to them after they're
out unless they're over 18,right?
Maddi (21:40):
Yeah, so, well, the rules when I was working, they've
changed a tiny bit, I think,since I've worked Wilderness.
where I couldn't talk to themfor at least two years
afterwards.
after they had completed theprogram or until they turned 18.
And my personal choice was justnot to talk to them because I
(22:04):
don't, and I would tell the kidsthis, I was like, you can
contact me.
I definitely a hundred percentwill not talk to you until you
are 18 because I'm not going totalk to minors.
So they knew for sure I wouldn'ttalk to them until they turned
18.
It didn't matter if it was morethan two years.
But also I just didn't want themto go back to the place.
(22:25):
that made them get there.
I'm like, I'm just a steppingstone for you.
Step on me.
Get to a better place.
Like that is my goal for you.
So I just want them to get to abetter place, not necessarily
look back and be like, thatplace was so good.
I'm like, yeah, it was a goodplace to be, but you deserve
(22:47):
better.
You deserve to keep going andkeep seeing better.
Kristen (22:52):
So you didn't always get to see like how things
worked out later on in theirlife for like kind of the
longterm.
Yeah.
Uh, results, I guess.
Maddi (23:02):
Yeah.
A couple of the kids, I do knowkind of what happened because I
had other co staff that talkedto them.
And one of the girls that Iactually was from my group went
to the residential treatmentcenter that I used to work at.
And so my old staff there wouldsend me updates about her and be
like, she's doing so good.
And she was fabulous.
I loved her.
(23:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen (23:25):
Yeah.
And the age range, what was, itwas typically, I mean, they're
teens, but like, what was atypical age range?
Maddi (23:32):
So the ages that we worked with were 13 to 17.
And then if you turned 18, youkind of just age out.
But the majority of kids were 14to probably 16.
Kristen (23:48):
What was, like, a big takeaway for you from doing
this, like, overall?
Maddi (23:56):
I think the biggest takeaway for me was how, how
much people can change, like,negative, positive, mostly
positive, but how much peoplecan change and how much little
things truly affect people.
Because I could say somethingoff comment to a kid and just be
(24:17):
like, Oh, I love you.
And weeks later, I would seethat kid again and be like, you
are literally my favorite human.
And I just needed you to say Ilove you that one day and you
did.
And it was everything I needed.
And I'm like, I remember sayingthis to you.
So, so like little things likethat, like how much just the
(24:40):
little things that we do canimpact those around us.
Yeah, I think that's my biggesttakeaway.
Kristen (24:53):
Yeah, I feel like teens are so like, they're so
sensitive and they're so littleand you know, I feel like it
does mean a lot to them, butthey don't show it as much.
But I think we're like that onthe inside, even as adults where
it's like, I just need someoneto.
Maddi (25:07):
Yeah, they're just so soft and cute, but they're like
cactus on the outside.
Kristen (25:13):
It's like, I feel like it's very it's probably more
dramatic.
seeing that through them.
But, it's like, it applies toall of us.
Right.
So if you were a parent, wouldyou send your child to
wilderness therapy and are therecertain traumas or, issues kids
are dealing with where it's moreeffective to go or less, you
(25:34):
know, you might send them someto a different type of therapy.
Maddi (25:38):
Yeah.
I think case by case.
I would do it, maybe.
Like, kids have a lot of traumafrom being sent away from their
family, even if they don't likethe family situation.
So no matter what happens, Ithink As a parent, I would just
(25:59):
take that into consideration,because kids feel so, hurt over
being kicked out of theirfamily, and that's kind of how
it feels when they get sentaway, is that they've done
something so wrong that theirfamily no longer wants them, and
so that's a hard thing to dealwith.
thing to work through.
So I think you would have toweigh out the benefits versus
(26:25):
the consequences becausesometimes no matter how hard you
work in therapy, after sendingthat kid away, that kid's still
going to resent the fact thatyou sent them away.
And so that's a hard thing towork through.
So I don't know, it would dependon the situation.
Definitely in cases Where thekids had been struggling with
(26:49):
drug addictions.
Definitely that worked waybetter for them because to be
taken out of that situation wasmore helpful, than it was
harmful because they knew thattheir parents loved them, wanted
them, but because they keptmaking choices that put their
(27:11):
lives in danger or themphysically in danger, that it
was safer for them to go to aplace.
other than home.
So I think in cases like that,it's way more beneficial.
Or I had a few cases where kidshad suicidal ideation or had
(27:31):
attempted to commit suicide andtheir parents had a really hard
time dealing with that andfeeling like they couldn't
handle that situation.
And so in those kinds ofsituations, it was definitely
more beneficial for that poorkid to be sent away from their
family to a place.
(27:53):
where they could feel safe, boththe parents and the kid.
So it's just kind of weighingyour options and realizing, are
the benefits of my kid not beingwith me outweighing the negative
of maybe my kid resenting me forsending them away?
(28:13):
So like, there's pros and consto all of it.
The majority of the time, Ithink if you can work it out
with a therapist, go to familytherapy, get your kid.
A therapist that they can ventto that doesn't have to be like
your friend, like send your kidto therapy and let them vent
(28:37):
about you cause they'll feelbetter coming home and being
like, ah, someone understandswhy I'm angry with my mom.
She won't let me play the X Boxor whatever.
And so I think you should try tokeep your family together if you
can, because there's trauma thatcomes for both sides, for
(28:57):
parents and for kids, by sendingyour kid away.
Kristen (29:02):
Yeah because I was talking to somebody and they
were like, isn't that kind of acontroversial therapy?
Like, I don't know Acting like,like, maybe it's dangerous or
it's traumatic, like it causestrauma and I was like, oh, I
don't know.
Yeah, so like
Maddi (29:19):
recently, recently, especially in Utah, because Utah
has a lot of, uh, therapeuticprograms.
There's been a lot of lawsuitsthat have come through for
wilderness programs, forresidential treatment centers.
And a lot of it is there,there's just not enough good
(29:39):
staff for a lot of theseprograms.
And I was lucky enough to havelike fantastic co workers And so
a lot of it is a fine line offinding good people to help take
care of these kids who are in avulnerable place.
And so sometimes that worksreally well.
(30:00):
Sometimes you're just out in thewild.
So like you can't force a kid todrink water and they get
dehydrated.
Yeah.
a scary place to be.
And yeah, that is on the adult,but also these are teenagers.
So like, there are, there's alot of controversy and I
(30:21):
understand why there is, becausethey can be put into dangerous
situations.
They can get bit by a snake.
They get like different thingscan happen in wilderness therapy
and different things can happenIn residential treatment and
definitely people should takethat into consideration when
(30:41):
they're sending these like cutelittle kids.
They may be little monsters atthe time, you love your kids, so
you're trying to do what's bestfor them.
So definitely do research.
Research a bunch.
If you ever, anyone evercontemplates going to a
treatment center as an adult, asa child.
(31:02):
Research a lot, like know whatyou're doing before you go into
that situation or before you putsomeone else in that situation.
Kristen (31:12):
So I don't really think I thought about like this type
of therapy for adults.
Like, yeah.
What do you know about that?
I'm just curious because I knowyou've worked with teens, but
like, yeah.
I don't know if you knowanything about the adult side.
Maddi (31:26):
Yeah.
So it's actually, so for adultsI feel like it's not as common
because as an adult, you'repaying for it yourself if your
insurance doesn't cover it.
Which a lot of insurances don'tand usually it's for a couple
months, and so you have toeither quit your job or, on some
(31:47):
level, hope that your job willallow you to go on leave so that
you can work through theseprograms.
But like, yeah, adult programsdo about the same thing.
They're usually tailored more toaddiction recovery, but a lot of
addiction recovery is adultsjust trying to self medicate.
Like at least that's what myexperience is and my experience
(32:08):
talking to...'cause one of myfavorite co staff that I worked
with.
He had actually done an adultprogram before he had come back
and decided to work.
In wilderness therapy, and sothat was super cool to talk to
him about it because as I likego off and do other things in my
life, I can recognize how muchof alcoholism or using drugs
(32:33):
recreationally or nonrecreationally illegally is
really just adults Trying toself medicate for past traumas
or mental health problems thatgo kind of unnoticed or
untreated.
So, that's why I think mostadult programs are tailored for
(32:53):
recovery from addictions.
Kristen (32:56):
That makes sense.
That's kind of what I would haveguessed, but yeah.
Yeah.
Um, one more.
Well, maybe two more questions Iwant to know because I'm sure
like working with teens and justbeing out there.
You have some kind of funnystories and I'm like, to lighten
the mood.
What were there any funny,memorable, impactful.
(33:17):
stories while you were outthere?
Maddi (33:19):
I have so many.
One of my favorite things is howmany kids, I grew up in the
West.
I know what sagebrush is.
And I assume most people do, butthey don't.
So I would say, this is sage.
(33:40):
And some of the kids in theirmind would associate sage with a
seasoning that you put on yourfood.
And so they would go and picksagebrush.
And then sprinkle it on theirfood.
And it's edible like you can itdoesn't taste good, but they can
do it.
And so like I never Like I toldthem that it was not the sage
(34:02):
that they ate out of theirgarden or that they would buy at
the store But some of them choseto continue to eat it I did not
stop I said this is not the sagethat you think it is.
I had a group of girls thatenjoyed face masks And so we
would find places to collectclay and they would mix the clay
(34:23):
with charcoal from our campfiresand do face masks, which we
don't have mirrors out there.
So like, this was like monkeys,they would sit across from each
other, put it on each other'sfaces.
Then they would try and wash itoff themselves.
And it's just like this cakeyclay charcoal mix with like
(34:46):
chunks.
And so that was delightful.
10 out of 10 recommend.
Homemade face masks are always awin.
Yeah, I let them do it to me onetime.
And it was awful.
And after that, I said, I canteach you how to make it better.
But I don't want to do it.
(35:07):
So we did that.
We did a lot of crafts like Iloved crafting.
with them.
So I had one kid that had neversewn before, like, with a
needle, and we did a lot ofprojects with leather, and this
kid really loved horror movies.
And so they said, can you teachme how to make a mask?
(35:29):
And so for two weeks, the twoweeks I was with this kid, we
worked on making them a leathermask.
for their face.
I'm like, this is horror of allhorrors, but also it's so much
fun.
And we would try it on atdifferent stages and then walk
around camp with it, especiallyif the therapist was about to
come.
And I thought it was the mostdelightful thing.
(35:52):
We just did a lot of crazythings.
I taught them how to makeBrigham tea and pine tea, and
then they thought we could havetea with other things, and so
then we had to cut back on thetea.
Kristen (36:10):
Yeah, it was just a lot of fun.
Maddi (36:15):
Yeah.
Like maybe.
Maybe it shouldn't have been asfun as it was, but I enjoyed it.
And they would just doshenanigans and I would say this
is delightful.
And some of my co staff would belike, this is barely organized
chaos.
(36:36):
That's what I do well at.
It's organized chaos.
I was gonna say, this is perfectfor you.
You're like, one of the, kind ofone of the kids, but not that
you're like, you know.
Yeah.
The good boundaries, but, butyeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's so fun, Maddie.
Yeah.
I have a lot of fun.
Kristen (36:55):
Yeah.
I was gonna ask you as one lastquestion, do you have a favorite
book or resource or modalitythat you want to share that
might help people or somethingto look up or just something
that you love?
Maddi (37:07):
Yeah we've read a lot of books out there.
That was one of the things thatwas like our entertainment.
But my favorite book that isvaguely therapeutic is Man's
Search for Meaning.
I read it for the first time inmiddle school.
Yeah, in middle school.
Then I read it in high schooland then I read it in college
(37:27):
and it's just, been a lifealtering book for me.
It's about this psychologist whowas Jewish and went through the
Holocaust and he lived through aconcentration camp and just his
perspective on the world andlike humanity helped me change
(37:53):
my thought processes and helpedme become more positive and
realizing that I have so muchmore control of my life than
maybe I thought I did.
And so it's just a good book togive you perspective on your own
emotions, on how you can setgoals and how you can work
(38:15):
towards becoming a betterperson.
I think also too, like settinggoals that makes life so much
easier.
So just however that looks forpeople, like, Going for a walk
daily.
And that's a goal or just makingtheir bed, something little to
like huge things, like goingback to school.
(38:36):
saving for a house preparing forlike having kids, like just huge
life decisions, setting goalsfor those and making it happen.
Cause when you set goals, you'reable to see the future better
and able to work towardssomething.
And that helps keep yourmindset.
positive because you're workingtowards a positive goal.
(38:58):
And so I think setting goals issuper important.
And I don't know, man search formeaning was just very good for
my life.
It's a good book.
Yeah.
Kristen (39:08):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
And what you were saying about,like, I feel like feeling out of
control is kind of the, theplight of the teenager.
It's like the, yeah, the bigstruggle of every teenager and
realizing that you can like,that there are things you have
control over.
You know, and setting goals and,you know, and even as an adult,
(39:30):
like we just, it's likesomething you learn in a big way
as a teenager, hopefully, but asan adult, you have to kind of
keep learning it.
And so I'm like, that goes verywell.
Maddi (39:45):
Yeah.
So set goals.
It makes life easier.
Kristen (39:48):
Yeah.
Well, awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Maddie.
Thanks for sharing your, yourinsights and your wisdom and
your lessons from the trail orwhatever.
Yeah.
Maddi (40:01):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me, Kristen.
I love your face and I miss youso much.
Kristen (40:07):
Likewise.
Yeah, I feel like you're justsuch a joyful person and you
live life on your own terms andI just think we could all take a
lesson from the book of Maddi,like on just being happy and
content and having goodboundaries and anyway, I just
think you're great.
So thanks for being you andsetting a good example for
(40:28):
everyone.
Maddi (40:29):
I appreciate you so much.
I feel like I came to you whenwe became first became roommates
and I was like this littlebroken child and then I lived
with you and I feel like so muchmore content and peaceful and
it's all to do with you and howpeaceful and delightful you are.
Kristen (40:45):
Aw, thanks.
It was the same for me.
Like that was a very inspiredmeeting.
So yeah.
So thanks.
Well, love you, love you, andyeah, I guess we'll wrap it up.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying whollyempowered, share it with that
(41:06):
friend or on your socials, youcan also hit the follow button.
If you want to keep up with thelatest episodes until next time,
stay empowered.
I'm Kristen Russell, and this isThe Wholly Empowered Podcast,
where we dive into all thingsholistic healing and open our
minds, hearts, and paradigms tonew ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
Kristen (00:16):
We are here with Maddi Mosher today and Maddi is one of
my favorite people.
We lived together for a longtime.
Your degree is in psychology,right?
Yeah.
And you've done work withchildren in, children, like
teens.
It's always been teens, right?
Yeah.
in like a therapeutic setting inlike a, what would you call
(00:39):
that?
Where you started?
Maddi (00:40):
Yeah, so I started in residential treatment.
Kristen (00:43):
Residential treatment.
Maddi (00:44):
It's kind of like a home setting where there's a bunch of
kids that have, A variety ofbackgrounds that have difficulty
with their mental health, ordifficulty with their family, or
different situations.
And that's what I started with,was Residential, and then I
moved to Wilderness Therapy,which is my favorite.
Kristen (01:04):
And that's what I want to focus on today more than
anything, because I think it'sjust, really interesting.
And I just have lots ofquestions for you.
So yeah, we'll cover all thethings about wilderness therapy.
And so that's Maddie.
Did I miss anything?
Maddi (01:21):
No, that's me.
Okay.
Kristen (01:24):
So, Okay, so you started in residential and then
you moved to wilderness.
And what, what got you startedin this?
What made you interested in it?
How I heard about it was I was,I served a mission for Church of
Jesus Christ of Latter daySaints and One of the girls on
my mission, a fellow missionary,her parents actually ran the
(01:50):
company that I ended up workingfor after I graduated college,
but she had been through theprogram herself and we talked
about it and she was like, thisis so cool.
And I'm like, yeah, I would loveto camp for that long and just
have no one care about it.
So I love the outdoors.
I love the idea of just beingfree outside.
(02:14):
And then adding therapy to it.
I was like what could be betterthan that.
So that's kind of what got methinking about it at the time.
I didn't think I was actuallygoing to go into psychology.
So it was just like a fun ideaor fun thing.
To think about but then Iapplied right out of college
right after I got my degree inpsychology, and they didn't get
(02:36):
back to me very quick.
And so I started in residentialdid that for a little bit.
And then I emailed them again.
And I was like, Hey, do you needanybody?
I didn't even send myapplication.
And again, I was just like,Hello.
And they were like, Oh, yeah,we're looking for people.
It's cool that you're stillinterested.
And so that's how I got actuallyto work for the company that I
(02:57):
worked for.
I feel like you just reallythrive in this environment.
What do you think contributes tothat?
Maddi (03:04):
I think part of it is that I'm really optimistic, but
I also like everything aboutbeing outside of nature is just
my happy space.
So I'm going into an environmentthat is just very easy for me.
And maybe that's not so much forother people.
So I was in a space that wasalready.
(03:26):
a safe space for me doingsomething that I already felt
really comfortable with becauseI had just gotten my bachelor's
degree in psychology.
And so I felt like"I know somethings".
So it was easy for me to go intowilderness therapy and be like,
(03:47):
okay, I understand kind of wherethese kids are coming from.
From having previous experiencewith my own family and their
mental health with my friends.
And so I just felt like I had agood background of both cause I
grew up being outside.
I grew up with people that hadmental health problems and so it
(04:08):
felt pretty natural to me and soI just was optimistic and had a
lot of fun with it and hopefullythat helped people.
If not, I had a fun time.
Kristen (04:20):
It's kind of tailored to you in a way.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, I feel like if I was oneof the teens and you were my
counselor I think yourconfidence would give me a lot
of confidence.
Because I'm someone who's not ascomfortable camping outside.
And so I'm sure, I'm sure thatwas helpful.
But I just want to get into thiswilderness therapy as a therapy
(04:43):
and kind of the day to day, butultimately what I want to get at
and the goal here is.
Looking at this as a therapy, isit beneficial?
Is it something that you, feellike you'd recommend?
Cause and that's, what's thecompany called again that you
worked for?
Maddi (05:02):
The company that I worked for, it was called Wingate
Wilderness Therapy.
They no longer work with youth,they just have an adult program
now, and so the name has changedslightly too, but I worked with
Wingate, and it's based insouthern Utah, in Escalante
National Monument.
Kristen (05:21):
And it's really similar, I think a lot of people
are familiar with Anasazi.
Maddi (05:24):
Yeah.
So the guy who created theprogram that I worked for
actually worked for Anasazi forquite a few years and helped
develop a lot of otherwilderness programs in Utah
before he created his ownwilderness program, and all of
them are based off of Anasazi.
And their philosophy andideology.
Kristen (05:47):
And it's not based on cause then you type like
everything's religious.
It's not, it's not religious,right.
It's just like, yeah.
Maddi (05:54):
So it's not any religious based, uh, mostly it's based on
relational therapy.
So that's.
A lot of it is how we relate toeach other, how these kids can
rebuild a relationship withtheir family and their parents,
because that's a lot of thereasons that kids end up in
therapeutic programs is becausethey don't have good
(06:17):
relationships within their ownfamily.
And so the main goal of bothprograms when I did residential
and when I did wilderness was toreunify the family, like.
The kids hadn't been courtordered or anything to be here,
but it was mostly their parentsbeing like, Hey, I'm at my wit's
(06:39):
end.
I don't know how to get to thiskid or we're just not working
well together.
And then for the parents and thekids to take accountability for
what they did in theirrelationship, they created it so
that they no longer had goodcommunication.
And so that's mainly what theprograms are for.
(07:00):
And that's a lot of.
what Anasazi and a lot oftherapeutic programs do is
trying to create environmentswhere families can come back
together.
And even if it's not perfect,they can work together and still
be a cohesive family.
Kristen (07:17):
Wow.
That's really cool.
Maddi (07:19):
Yeah.
Kristen (07:19):
So the kids who are coming, you said, it wasn't
court ordered necessarily, butit's usually probably they're
being sent maybe against theirwill.
Like,
Maddi (07:27):
yeah.
Yeah.
So More often than not, it's theparents choice to send their
kids to these differentprograms.
And Every once in a while youget lucky, and it's the kid's
choice to be there, and whenit's the kid's choice, it works
so much better.
Like, these kids work reallyhard to make things happen, they
want to get stuff done, theywant to change, or they want
(07:49):
their situation to change.
So, that may be that they don'tnecessarily feel like everything
was their fault.
Which is usually true, but theyplay a part.
And so, they would just workreally hard, and usually their
parents would work really hardtoo, because they would
recognize, like, just when thekids choose, their therapy goes
(08:10):
so much better.
But most of the time, that's notwhat happens.
It's usually a parent, or bothparents, or grandparents, or
just family, not being able tocope together, like, work things
out.
And so the parents either bringtheir kids or use a third party
(08:31):
company to escort their kids towilderness therapy or
residential treatment centers.
And if the parents bring them,that also is more beneficial
than a third party bringing yourkids.
all of those ways, that's howkids usually get to our program.
Every once in a while, we wouldget a kid who, it wasn't
(08:55):
necessarily their choice to bethere, but it was kind of this,
or maybe do something else,relating to like court orders.
So they had done somethingillegal, whether that be to do
with drugs, to do with, I don'teven know, usually it's drugs.
And so, their options wereeither to come and do a
(09:18):
therapeutic program, get offdrugs, get away from that kind
of situation, and then workthrough the process of getting
clean and not being aroundpeople that make it hard for
them to not be on drugs.
And so that happens sometimes,but most of the time it's
parents.
(09:40):
Not knowing what to do withtheir kids and sending them to
these different programs.
Kristen (09:45):
So it could be kind of a it's not really like a drug
detox thing or anything, but itcould be kind of Yeah.
That could be a factor, I guess.
Yeah.
In some cases.
Maddi (09:57):
Just with experience, a lot of kids that have mental
health problems, that young alsodabbled in ways to self
medicate, so a lot of them wouldhave.
other problems.
Yeah.
Yeah.
Which is
Kristen (10:14):
sad, but like so real.
No, totally.
So walk us through like how theweek goes.
So they get there, I'm guessingon a weekend, you spend X amount
of days.
Like how does that, what doesthe day to day look like?
Maddi (10:30):
So what happens is they can show up on any day of the
week.
They could show up at eighto'clock in the morning or eight
o'clock at night.
They could show up whenever.
And it's just a surprise.
It's not truly a surprise, butit kind of feels that way for
just the trail staff.
So I was a trail staff and sothese kids can show up kind of
(10:50):
whenever for us.
For the company though, theyhave specific days that they
would come in and they wouldwork with people in the office
to get them.
all set with their gear soeveryone would have a backpack,
they'd have clothes, they'd havefood, whatever they needed to be
out in the wildernessbackpacking for up to a couple
months.
Kristen (11:12):
So like, okay, yeah, so it's not like a week long thing
every time or, you know, it'sjust very like, you're just out
there and they bring them toyou.
Maddi (11:19):
Yeah, so our shifts worked as where I worked two
weeks on two weeks off.
So I was out there for for surefor two weeks.
Sometimes I work three weeks,but that didn't happen very
often.
But two weeks is how long staffwould be out there at a time.
So some kids would be there fromlike three weeks To the longest
(11:40):
I ever had The kid chose to stayfor six months, rather than go
to residential afterwards,because a lot of wilderness
therapy, and then you go to aresidential.
This kid chose, hey, I don'twant to go to a residential, I
excel here, And so they chose tostay for six months.
So that's not the norm.
At least it wasn't the norm formy company that I worked with so
(12:03):
the kids would get all geared upand then they usually came out
on a hiking day usually four tofive days a week.
We would go on hikes and Whatthat means is they would hike
with our backpacks Anywhere fromthree I worked with the girls
mostly so we would hike three toseven miles But if you're
(12:25):
working with boys or the adults,they hiked more five to ten
miles every day, so the kidswould come out and they had no
idea if they were going to hikethree miles that day, just
coming in, or if we were goingto have a seven mile hike.
And we didn't tell the kids themileage that we were going to
hike that day until we got tocamp that night.
(12:48):
And we would do that five days aweek, and then we would have
what we called like layovers,and so we would have two days
camping in the same spot, and wewouldn't hike unless they wanted
to.
Sometimes we would go on littleadventures, And they were fun,
like we would go up canyons sothat they could hear their
echoes and we could scream inthe canyon, or we would go to
(13:10):
where there was petroglyphs, andso we would show the kids where
these cool petroglyphs were, andthen tell them, please don't
scratch on any of the rocks,like things like that.
But usually we just hung aroundin camp and we would do crafts.
We taught them how to makemoccasins.
I taught some girls how to makeponchos.
We did a lot of jewelry making,we had, I don't know.
(13:33):
We did a lot of stuff on layoverdays, because those days were
when their therapists wouldcome, and if we weren't busy
doing something, then that'swhen arguments also happen.
So we tried to keep likeactivities and games going.
We played, it's like theprecursor to lacrosse.
So we would teach them how tomake little lacrosse sticks, and
(13:55):
it's like, two balls on astring, and you would fling them
at each other.
Eventually I made my own.
We wanted them to see that youcould make anything that you
needed.
That they could create anythingthat they needed.
And they got really confidentliving outside and being able to
make whatever they needed,literally.
(14:16):
And so, we would play that everyonce in a while and everyone got
super into it.
And maybe it was just because Iwas super competitive, but I was
always like, everybody's got toplay.
My team's gonna win, even thoughit didn't always win, but I
would sure hype us up.
We had a lot of fun on layoverdays.
did group therapy on layoverdays.
(14:41):
The director would come out andvisit with us on layover days.
So then he would come and teachus a skill like how to find clay
out in the middle of the desertand turn it into pottery or how
to make arrowheads, just likerandom different skills.
And then it was a good daybecause we learned a lot of
(15:03):
wilderness skills and we taughtthat to the kids.
So.
I'm capable of making fire outof sticks, but I'm not good at
it.
But so I got to teach kids howto do a bow and drill to make
fire.
And.
So sometimes on layover dayswe'd practice that, because
that's how we lit almost all ofour fires, is by bow drills.
(15:25):
And that's kind of how our weekgoes.
Kristen (15:28):
So lots of kind of like play therapy, I guess?
Yeah.
And then they bring therapistsin and it's just a lot of
variety, seems like.
And then just being outside, Ifeel like it's therapeutic in
itself.
Maddi (15:39):
Yeah.
Kristen (15:42):
So do you feel like it was an effective approach to
therapy?
Did you feel like the kids wouldcome away changed?
I, apparently I was thinkingthey were just out there for a
little while, but it's like,they could be completely living
in the wilderness for months.
But,
Maddi (16:01):
so it definitely creates a bunch of feral little animals.
I loved it.
I think overall it's verybeneficial.
Like it was hard for all of thekids that did it.
But I think after workingresidential and then working in
wilderness, I definitely likedWilderness better because it's
(16:24):
so much more the kids choosingto do it themselves.
So, like, if you don't want toclean your room, you don't have
to, it's a sleeping bag.
No one's gonna care.
I'll tell you the ants andsnakes might crawl in it, and if
you don't want them to be inyour sleeping bag, go shake it
(16:45):
out, go put it in your backpackthings like that.
But it's all their own choice,mostly, once they get out there.
It wasn't their choice usuallyto be there, but once they're
there.
everything that they choose todo, it's on them.
I'm here to support you inpositive choices.
I'm not here to support you inany negative ones, but if you
(17:05):
want to improve anything in yourlife, whether that be drawing,
whether that be just makingjewelry, yeah, if it's positive,
I'm all in.
If you want to be better friendswith someone in our group and
you don't know how to do thatbecause you've never had a good
relationship with another humanbefore, let's work on that.
Let's work on how we talk toeach other.
It's like, we don't want to becalling people names.
We don't want to be likenegative always in how we talk.
(17:30):
And so we would just work ondifferent aspects of self
improvement.
And it was a lot of the time ledby the kids themselves, where
they would see something and belike, I'm tired of this about
myself, or as staff, we couldsee they were struggling with
something and be like, Hey, I'mDo you want to improve on that?
(17:52):
Or do you dislike this part ofyour life?
And would you like to make itdifferent or better and then
work on it from there?
So it was more led by the kidsinstead of an adult coming in
and being like, this is what youhave to work on.
This is, What your real problemis.
(18:14):
And you have to do all thesesteps to get to this point.
It was more, yeah, your lifereally sucks.
Part of that's your fault, butlet's work on some things and
you can get to a better placeand that's just where we want
you to be.
We don't have any huge grandioseend goal for you.
(18:35):
We just want you to be betterthan you were yesterday.
And so that part of wildernesstherapy and the program that I
worked with.
was very appealing to me andmade.
I don't know.
I felt like wilderness therapywas superior.
Kristen (18:53):
Well, there's like very natural consequences.
Like you were saying, like thesleeping bag versus you have to
clean your room.
And it's like, why, you know?
And then outside it's like,well, you can just deal with the
consequences.
Maddi (19:04):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm like at 2am when you wake meup, because there's a bunch of
ants in your sleeping bag.
I'm going to tell you to just goshake it out and go back to
sleep.
So yeah, you can just learn fromthe consequences yourself.
Kristen (19:20):
Like nature takes care of it at wilderness therapy, so
Maddi (19:23):
yeah,
Kristen (19:24):
yeah.
Maddi (19:26):
And then I feel like it gave the kids so much more
confidence because they'remaking decisions for themselves.
And they may not have been in asituation before where they made
as many decisions forthemselves.
And so it was kind of cool tojust watch them become more and
more confident in theirabilities to be a feral child.
(19:50):
Also just their abilities ingeneral, like to communicate
their abilities, to just feelsafe in their own surroundings
and that they recognize thatthey created that for
themselves, which that's reallycool.
Kristen (20:02):
That's cool.
I feel like it's a very, yeah,it seems like a very supportive
confidence building.
Like when I thought of itbefore, it seemed very like, I'm
going to throw you in thewilderness.
Good luck.
You know, and I feel likethere's an element of that, but
it's not, it just seems likeit's a lot more just supportive
than I was thinking, you know?
Maddi (20:18):
Yeah.
It's like when you have a goodgroup, it's like having group
therapy every day because allthe kids are working together to
do what they're supposed to bedoing.
They want to become better.
They want.
for everyone in their group towork cohesively because that
makes everyone's lives easierbecause if one person decides,
(20:42):
Hey, I'm not going to doanything.
Everyone else has to work harderto help make that person get
stuff done.
Like if not everyone collectsfirewood, that's a lot of
firewood for one person tocollect.
So everyone can be warm.
Or if one person chooses not tosleep correctly in sleep line,
(21:03):
then it makes everyone sleepfarther away so that everyone's
a little bit more cold.
No one's next to each other.
So it's cool to see them maketheir own choices, but then as a
group to recognize if I do mypart, that makes life easier for
everyone.
And then take that back to theirfamilies and realize if I'm
(21:24):
doing my part, okay.
That's going to make everyone'slife easier, including my own.
Kristen (21:29):
That's cool.
Yeah.
That's a really cool takeaway.
And I know you didn't get to,you probably haven't been able
to talk with, because I know youcan't talk to them after they're
out unless they're over 18,right?
Maddi (21:40):
Yeah, so, well, the rules when I was working, they've
changed a tiny bit, I think,since I've worked Wilderness.
where I couldn't talk to themfor at least two years
afterwards.
after they had completed theprogram or until they turned 18.
And my personal choice was justnot to talk to them because I
(22:04):
don't, and I would tell the kidsthis, I was like, you can
contact me.
I definitely a hundred percentwill not talk to you until you
are 18 because I'm not going totalk to minors.
So they knew for sure I wouldn'ttalk to them until they turned
18.
It didn't matter if it was morethan two years.
But also I just didn't want themto go back to the place.
(22:25):
that made them get there.
I'm like, I'm just a steppingstone for you.
Step on me.
Get to a better place.
Like that is my goal for you.
So I just want them to get to abetter place, not necessarily
look back and be like, thatplace was so good.
I'm like, yeah, it was a goodplace to be, but you deserve
(22:47):
better.
You deserve to keep going andkeep seeing better.
Kristen (22:52):
So you didn't always get to see like how things
worked out later on in theirlife for like kind of the
longterm.
Yeah.
Uh, results, I guess.
Maddi (23:02):
Yeah.
A couple of the kids, I do knowkind of what happened because I
had other co staff that talkedto them.
And one of the girls that Iactually was from my group went
to the residential treatmentcenter that I used to work at.
And so my old staff there wouldsend me updates about her and be
like, she's doing so good.
And she was fabulous.
I loved her.
(23:22):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Kristen (23:25):
Yeah.
And the age range, what was, itwas typically, I mean, they're
teens, but like, what was atypical age range?
Maddi (23:32):
So the ages that we worked with were 13 to 17.
And then if you turned 18, youkind of just age out.
But the majority of kids were 14to probably 16.
Kristen (23:48):
What was, like, a big takeaway for you from doing
this, like, overall?
Maddi (23:56):
I think the biggest takeaway for me was how, how
much people can change, like,negative, positive, mostly
positive, but how much peoplecan change and how much little
things truly affect people.
Because I could say somethingoff comment to a kid and just be
(24:17):
like, Oh, I love you.
And weeks later, I would seethat kid again and be like, you
are literally my favorite human.
And I just needed you to say Ilove you that one day and you
did.
And it was everything I needed.
And I'm like, I remember sayingthis to you.
So, so like little things likethat, like how much just the
(24:40):
little things that we do canimpact those around us.
Yeah, I think that's my biggesttakeaway.
Kristen (24:53):
Yeah, I feel like teens are so like, they're so
sensitive and they're so littleand you know, I feel like it
does mean a lot to them, butthey don't show it as much.
But I think we're like that onthe inside, even as adults where
it's like, I just need someoneto.
Maddi (25:07):
Yeah, they're just so soft and cute, but they're like
cactus on the outside.
Kristen (25:13):
It's like, I feel like it's very it's probably more
dramatic.
seeing that through them.
But, it's like, it applies toall of us.
Right.
So if you were a parent, wouldyou send your child to
wilderness therapy and are therecertain traumas or, issues kids
are dealing with where it's moreeffective to go or less, you
(25:34):
know, you might send them someto a different type of therapy.
Maddi (25:38):
Yeah.
I think case by case.
I would do it, maybe.
Like, kids have a lot of traumafrom being sent away from their
family, even if they don't likethe family situation.
So no matter what happens, Ithink As a parent, I would just
(25:59):
take that into consideration,because kids feel so, hurt over
being kicked out of theirfamily, and that's kind of how
it feels when they get sentaway, is that they've done
something so wrong that theirfamily no longer wants them, and
so that's a hard thing to dealwith.
thing to work through.
So I think you would have toweigh out the benefits versus
(26:25):
the consequences becausesometimes no matter how hard you
work in therapy, after sendingthat kid away, that kid's still
going to resent the fact thatyou sent them away.
And so that's a hard thing towork through.
So I don't know, it would dependon the situation.
Definitely in cases Where thekids had been struggling with
(26:49):
drug addictions.
Definitely that worked waybetter for them because to be
taken out of that situation wasmore helpful, than it was
harmful because they knew thattheir parents loved them, wanted
them, but because they keptmaking choices that put their
(27:11):
lives in danger or themphysically in danger, that it
was safer for them to go to aplace.
other than home.
So I think in cases like that,it's way more beneficial.
Or I had a few cases where kidshad suicidal ideation or had
(27:31):
attempted to commit suicide andtheir parents had a really hard
time dealing with that andfeeling like they couldn't
handle that situation.
And so in those kinds ofsituations, it was definitely
more beneficial for that poorkid to be sent away from their
family to a place.
(27:53):
where they could feel safe, boththe parents and the kid.
So it's just kind of weighingyour options and realizing, are
the benefits of my kid not beingwith me outweighing the negative
of maybe my kid resenting me forsending them away?
(28:13):
So like, there's pros and consto all of it.
The majority of the time, Ithink if you can work it out
with a therapist, go to familytherapy, get your kid.
A therapist that they can ventto that doesn't have to be like
your friend, like send your kidto therapy and let them vent
(28:37):
about you cause they'll feelbetter coming home and being
like, ah, someone understandswhy I'm angry with my mom.
She won't let me play the X Boxor whatever.
And so I think you should try tokeep your family together if you
can, because there's trauma thatcomes for both sides, for
(28:57):
parents and for kids, by sendingyour kid away.
Kristen (29:02):
Yeah because I was talking to somebody and they
were like, isn't that kind of acontroversial therapy?
Like, I don't know Acting like,like, maybe it's dangerous or
it's traumatic, like it causestrauma and I was like, oh, I
don't know.
Yeah, so like
Maddi (29:19):
recently, recently, especially in Utah, because Utah
has a lot of, uh, therapeuticprograms.
There's been a lot of lawsuitsthat have come through for
wilderness programs, forresidential treatment centers.
And a lot of it is there,there's just not enough good
(29:39):
staff for a lot of theseprograms.
And I was lucky enough to havelike fantastic co workers And so
a lot of it is a fine line offinding good people to help take
care of these kids who are in avulnerable place.
And so sometimes that worksreally well.
(30:00):
Sometimes you're just out in thewild.
So like you can't force a kid todrink water and they get
dehydrated.
Yeah.
a scary place to be.
And yeah, that is on the adult,but also these are teenagers.
So like, there are, there's alot of controversy and I
(30:21):
understand why there is, becausethey can be put into dangerous
situations.
They can get bit by a snake.
They get like different thingscan happen in wilderness therapy
and different things can happenIn residential treatment and
definitely people should takethat into consideration when
(30:41):
they're sending these like cutelittle kids.
They may be little monsters atthe time, you love your kids, so
you're trying to do what's bestfor them.
So definitely do research.
Research a bunch.
If you ever, anyone evercontemplates going to a
treatment center as an adult, asa child.
(31:02):
Research a lot, like know whatyou're doing before you go into
that situation or before you putsomeone else in that situation.
Kristen (31:12):
So I don't really think I thought about like this type
of therapy for adults.
Like, yeah.
What do you know about that?
I'm just curious because I knowyou've worked with teens, but
like, yeah.
I don't know if you knowanything about the adult side.
Maddi (31:26):
Yeah.
So it's actually, so for adultsI feel like it's not as common
because as an adult, you'repaying for it yourself if your
insurance doesn't cover it.
Which a lot of insurances don'tand usually it's for a couple
months, and so you have toeither quit your job or, on some
(31:47):
level, hope that your job willallow you to go on leave so that
you can work through theseprograms.
But like, yeah, adult programsdo about the same thing.
They're usually tailored more toaddiction recovery, but a lot of
addiction recovery is adultsjust trying to self medicate.
Like at least that's what myexperience is and my experience
(32:08):
talking to...'cause one of myfavorite co staff that I worked
with.
He had actually done an adultprogram before he had come back
and decided to work.
In wilderness therapy, and sothat was super cool to talk to
him about it because as I likego off and do other things in my
life, I can recognize how muchof alcoholism or using drugs
(32:33):
recreationally or nonrecreationally illegally is
really just adults Trying toself medicate for past traumas
or mental health problems thatgo kind of unnoticed or
untreated.
So, that's why I think mostadult programs are tailored for
(32:53):
recovery from addictions.
Kristen (32:56):
That makes sense.
That's kind of what I would haveguessed, but yeah.
Yeah.
Um, one more.
Well, maybe two more questions Iwant to know because I'm sure
like working with teens and justbeing out there.
You have some kind of funnystories and I'm like, to lighten
the mood.
What were there any funny,memorable, impactful.
(33:17):
stories while you were outthere?
Maddi (33:19):
I have so many.
One of my favorite things is howmany kids, I grew up in the
West.
I know what sagebrush is.
And I assume most people do, butthey don't.
So I would say, this is sage.
(33:40):
And some of the kids in theirmind would associate sage with a
seasoning that you put on yourfood.
And so they would go and picksagebrush.
And then sprinkle it on theirfood.
And it's edible like you can itdoesn't taste good, but they can
do it.
And so like I never Like I toldthem that it was not the sage
(34:02):
that they ate out of theirgarden or that they would buy at
the store But some of them choseto continue to eat it I did not
stop I said this is not the sagethat you think it is.
I had a group of girls thatenjoyed face masks And so we
would find places to collectclay and they would mix the clay
(34:23):
with charcoal from our campfiresand do face masks, which we
don't have mirrors out there.
So like, this was like monkeys,they would sit across from each
other, put it on each other'sfaces.
Then they would try and wash itoff themselves.
And it's just like this cakeyclay charcoal mix with like
(34:46):
chunks.
And so that was delightful.
10 out of 10 recommend.
Homemade face masks are always awin.
Yeah, I let them do it to me onetime.
And it was awful.
And after that, I said, I canteach you how to make it better.
But I don't want to do it.
(35:07):
So we did that.
We did a lot of crafts like Iloved crafting.
with them.
So I had one kid that had neversewn before, like, with a
needle, and we did a lot ofprojects with leather, and this
kid really loved horror movies.
And so they said, can you teachme how to make a mask?
(35:29):
And so for two weeks, the twoweeks I was with this kid, we
worked on making them a leathermask.
for their face.
I'm like, this is horror of allhorrors, but also it's so much
fun.
And we would try it on atdifferent stages and then walk
around camp with it, especiallyif the therapist was about to
come.
And I thought it was the mostdelightful thing.
(35:52):
We just did a lot of crazythings.
I taught them how to makeBrigham tea and pine tea, and
then they thought we could havetea with other things, and so
then we had to cut back on thetea.
Kristen (36:10):
Yeah, it was just a lot of fun.
Maddi (36:15):
Yeah.
Like maybe.
Maybe it shouldn't have been asfun as it was, but I enjoyed it.
And they would just doshenanigans and I would say this
is delightful.
And some of my co staff would belike, this is barely organized
chaos.
(36:36):
That's what I do well at.
It's organized chaos.
I was gonna say, this is perfectfor you.
You're like, one of the, kind ofone of the kids, but not that
you're like, you know.
Yeah.
The good boundaries, but, butyeah.
Yeah.
That's awesome.
That's so fun, Maddie.
Yeah.
I have a lot of fun.
Kristen (36:55):
Yeah.
I was gonna ask you as one lastquestion, do you have a favorite
book or resource or modalitythat you want to share that
might help people or somethingto look up or just something
that you love?
Maddi (37:07):
Yeah we've read a lot of books out there.
That was one of the things thatwas like our entertainment.
But my favorite book that isvaguely therapeutic is Man's
Search for Meaning.
I read it for the first time inmiddle school.
Yeah, in middle school.
Then I read it in high schooland then I read it in college
(37:27):
and it's just, been a lifealtering book for me.
It's about this psychologist whowas Jewish and went through the
Holocaust and he lived through aconcentration camp and just his
perspective on the world andlike humanity helped me change
(37:53):
my thought processes and helpedme become more positive and
realizing that I have so muchmore control of my life than
maybe I thought I did.
And so it's just a good book togive you perspective on your own
emotions, on how you can setgoals and how you can work
(38:15):
towards becoming a betterperson.
I think also too, like settinggoals that makes life so much
easier.
So just however that looks forpeople, like, Going for a walk
daily.
And that's a goal or just makingtheir bed, something little to
like huge things, like goingback to school.
(38:36):
saving for a house preparing forlike having kids, like just huge
life decisions, setting goalsfor those and making it happen.
Cause when you set goals, you'reable to see the future better
and able to work towardssomething.
And that helps keep yourmindset.
positive because you're workingtowards a positive goal.
(38:58):
And so I think setting goals issuper important.
And I don't know, man search formeaning was just very good for
my life.
It's a good book.
Yeah.
Kristen (39:08):
Yeah.
Oh, I love that.
And what you were saying about,like, I feel like feeling out of
control is kind of the, theplight of the teenager.
It's like the, yeah, the bigstruggle of every teenager and
realizing that you can like,that there are things you have
control over.
You know, and setting goals and,you know, and even as an adult,
(39:30):
like we just, it's likesomething you learn in a big way
as a teenager, hopefully, but asan adult, you have to kind of
keep learning it.
And so I'm like, that goes verywell.
Maddi (39:45):
Yeah.
So set goals.
It makes life easier.
Kristen (39:48):
Yeah.
Well, awesome.
Well, thank you so much, Maddie.
Thanks for sharing your, yourinsights and your wisdom and
your lessons from the trail orwhatever.
Yeah.
Maddi (40:01):
Yeah.
Thanks for having me, Kristen.
I love your face and I miss youso much.
Kristen (40:07):
Likewise.
Yeah, I feel like you're justsuch a joyful person and you
live life on your own terms andI just think we could all take a
lesson from the book of Maddi,like on just being happy and
content and having goodboundaries and anyway, I just
think you're great.
So thanks for being you andsetting a good example for
(40:28):
everyone.
Maddi (40:29):
I appreciate you so much.
I feel like I came to you whenwe became first became roommates
and I was like this littlebroken child and then I lived
with you and I feel like so muchmore content and peaceful and
it's all to do with you and howpeaceful and delightful you are.
Kristen (40:45):
Aw, thanks.
It was the same for me.
Like that was a very inspiredmeeting.
So yeah.
So thanks.
Well, love you, love you, andyeah, I guess we'll wrap it up.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying whollyempowered, share it with that
(41:06):
friend or on your socials, youcan also hit the follow button.
If you want to keep up with thelatest episodes until next time,
stay empowered.
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