8. All About Correlations Between Belief in a Higher Power and Healing Your Soul - with Colby Wright - Wholly Empowered

Episode Transcript
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(00:00):
I'm Kristen Russell, and this isThe Wholly Empowered Podcast,
where we dive into all thingsholistic healing and open our
minds, hearts, and paradigms tonew ideas so we can live our
most empowered, healthy, joyfullives.
I wanted to hop on really quickand let you know about three
things before we get startedwith this episode.

(00:22):
If you are watching on YouTube,it's going to be in a part one
and part two.
So just keep, keep that in mindas you're listening.
There is a part two that youwill want to listen to.
So all other platforms disregardthat.
It's just one episode.
Also, I have started anInstagram account for this
podcast.
It's called Holy Empowered Pod,and I'll be posting clips and

(00:46):
just updates every time I postan episode.
So if you want to keep tabs on,on this, that's a great way to
do that.
You can also just subscribe andat least on Apple, it gives you
updates, I know.
So there's some options for you.
Also, this episode is with mycurrent Bishop and we.

(01:08):
Just had a great conversation.
It's very conversational.
It's very, just two friendstalking about the divine and our
experiences and our thoughts onhealing and how we view, having
a higher power.
So again, I know it's kind of atouchy subject sometimes, so

(01:30):
take what resonates, leave whatdoesn't.
We're just two imperfect peopletrying to figure it out like
everybody else.
So hopefully.
You can get a lot out of it.
I, I thoroughly enjoyed thisconversation.
It was a lot of fun.
so I hope you enjoy and HappyHolidays

Kristen (01:48):
Okay, so we are here with Colby Wright today, who is
he's a professor.
He is currently, he has apastoral role, as you like to
say.
He is a bishop right now.
he is also an author and also apodcaster.
And, um,

Colby (02:08):
Amateur on all fronts, on everything.
Amateur, you know, Amateur, butyes, yes, that's great.
Thank you.

Kristen (02:13):
We're all just, we're all just here showing up.
Right.
Yes.
Um, and we're just going to chattoday a little bit about.
the importance of having ahigher power on your, on your
healing path.
So, Colby, do you want tointroduce yourself a little more
in depth?

Colby (02:29):
Sure.
Yeah.
Okay.
That was very generous of you toname that I'm a professor and I
have a pastoral role in allthat.
I think of myself as just adude, a middle aged dude, trying
to make his way through theworld and trying to find like
peace and happiness and joy andtrying to keep kind of my life
together.
Um, Uh, and, and I'm, you know,I am married and have kids and

(02:50):
whatever.
So I, I'm trying to be a decenthusband.
I'm not always great at that.
I'm trying to be a decent dad.
I'm not always great at that.
I have a lot of friendships likethis one with you, Kristen, and
I'm not always great at those.
Um, but I'm mostly just a dudemaking my way through the world.
I'm a Montana boy.
Most people don't know thisabout me.
I like to say I've, I've got apretty heavy dose of redneck in

(03:11):
me from my childhood, but then Iwent and got a PhD.
So it's like, how does redneckand the book of Psalms has this
great phrase about peace andrighteousness kissing.
So somehow the Academy and aredneck kissed in me.
And, and I still like my jokes.
Tilt a lot redneck and but but Ido have a lot of education and I
teach a business school at BYU.

(03:33):
Um, but I also this is I thinkrelevant for your audience So a
normal guy just trying to makemy way through the world seeking
peace seeking joy seekingharmony Honestly, like that's
what I really want is harmonyWith the people around me with
the environment with theuniverse if we can get a little
bit mystical right at thebeginning here But I really want
harmony.
But in the last 15 years or so,I've been on a real intense like

(03:58):
faith journey, and that has ledme to explore in through all
sorts of media, whether it'sbooks, podcasts, YouTube
presentations.
It's been an obsession of mineto learn as much as I can about
this thing that we attach thelabel God to.

(04:20):
and I think you and I willexplore this a little bit.
I mean, it's really sad to methat word has so much baggage
attached to it now.
And so does Jesus, and so doesChristianity.
Like, all of these words havejust picked up so much baggage.
Uh, in fact, I think it was KarlRahner, forgive me, I'm going to
start quoting things that I'veread and heard over the years.

(04:41):
I think it was Karl Rahner whowas a German Jesuit back in, he
said this back in the 70s.
He said, I think it would behelpful if for the next 50
years, we just don't use theword God anymore.
And we just use the phrase, holymystery.
And I think what he was tryingto do is like liberate us from
the baggage of this, of thisthing.
But I've just been obsessed,Kristen, with like, what exactly

(05:03):
is this thing called God?
And how do I connect to it?
And what does this thing that Icall God Wish for me and so, you
know, I assume we'll talk aboutsome of that today.
But yeah, so 15 years I've beenreally doing a deep dive on that
and hopefully there's somethingwe can share talk about that
I'm, kristen.
I'm actually interested to hearyour insights on the topic of

(05:26):
healing and a higher power.
In fact, I gotta say one lastthing in the intro It was about
a month and a half ago I'm oldenough that I get injured
sleeping and I woke up onemorning and my neck and back was
just locked in place and Ithought it would loosen up and
it didn't.
And I needed healing.
Like, in fact, I think I calledyou or texted you kind of with a
desperate text of like, Kristen,I need, I need healing.

(05:49):
And you met me on a Saturdayand, and worked on me.
And so I've been on thereceiving end of some of your
healing work and it was, and itwas really helpful.
So I'm eager to hear yourinsights.
Let me stop talking.
That was too long of an intro.

Kristen (06:00):
No, that was great.
Thank you.
Um, Well, thank you.
I'm glad, I'm glad that washelpful for you.
Last minute massage situation.
It was an

Colby (06:07):
emergency massage.
Emergency, yes.
It was super helpful and thankyou again for doing that.
Good,

Kristen (06:13):
good.
yeah, well, gosh.
We're just, it's, this is whatwe're here for.
Like, you're talking about howyou've been on this 15 year long
journey and And I have so manythings to say about

Audio Only - All Participa (06:27):
what you just said,

Kristen (06:28):
or so many thoughts as you were speaking.
We'll see if I can get them out.
But yeah, just when you weresaying the, the attachment,
there's a word I want, but theconnotations around the word
God, and that's, that is so big.
That's so huge.
and I feel like it is a hugehindrance in people's healing is

(06:51):
just this, um, we have so many,so many ideas and like
woundedness and just like allthese things are attached to
this, you know, God.
And so, um, as far as Talkingabout like a higher power.
I think I want to keep it likekind of general.
Like I don't want to zero in onGod.

(07:12):
And I think you're on the samepage with me there.
You're like, we're gettingmystical right off the bat.
I'm like, we can always getmystical here.
This is just,

Colby (07:21):
we're going to cover all of it.
Yeah.
One of the things I was going tosay, Kristen, is through my
exploration and through mystudy, and I don't want to just
say exploration and study, likeI've had a lot of experience
that's meaningful to me, sort oflike numinous mystical
experience that's meaningful tome through it all.
One of the things that I, thatI, I'm always reluctant to make
these broad sweeping statementsand yet I love to do it.

(07:42):
So here's one of my broadsweeping statements that might
be an overgeneralization, but Iactually think one of the
problems that has occurred andit makes a lot of sense to me
is.
Whatever you want to call it,Source, uh, God, or Cosmic Love,
like there's a lot of labels wecould attach to this thing.
I'm going to keep using the wordGod, just for me, that's the

(08:03):
simplified version.
But I think this thing calledGod really is a holy mystery,
like I think Rahner was on tosomething.
That whatever this thing isflowing through the universe,
connecting us all together, andto me, This thing ultimately is
it's love like that's what itis.
It is.
It is the cosmic presence andreality of love but this thing

(08:27):
is so big and so mysterious andHumanity is so limited in its
ability to comprehend this thingthat I think what happens is
People have experiences with themystery Right.
The holy mystery.
And then we go about trying toarticulate it, or share it, or
maybe encourage people to havetheir own experience with it,

(08:48):
but words, the minute we takethe holy mystery and attach
words to it, we've alreadyconfined it.
And what happens is, over time,we keep narrowing this thing and
putting it in a smaller andsmaller box.
Some of it is unavoidable.
The minute we use language,we're putting this thing in a
box.
But it's not just that.

(09:09):
The thing itself is so muchbigger than what I can
understand that any attempt Imake to put my arms around it
narrows it, shrinks it, puts itin a box.
And so I think there's this likesteady pattern over human
history where people have anexperience, then we immediately
put box in a God..
So for thousands, I reallybelieve this for hundreds, maybe

(09:30):
thousands of years, this thing,The source, this cosmic mystery
has just been getting shrunk andshrunk and shrunk.
And then what happens is by thetime it gets presented to us in
our childhood, and, and let'snot be mad about this.
There's no reason to be angryabout this.
The God that gets presented tous in our childhood is almost a

(09:51):
caricature of the actual holymystery.
But that's all a child's braincan handle is, is a really
watered down to still almostcaricature of this thing.
But then the problem.
Kristen is kids start to build alife around the caricature So
what we do is we build ourfoundation on this really

(10:13):
warped, tiny, likeembarrassingly reduced version
of the holy mystery.
And it does lead to all sorts ofwounds and and religious trauma
is a thing and it's real.
And, and I've.
I think I've experienced some ofit, and I've certainly talked to
a lot of people that haveexperienced some of it, but

(10:34):
that's because, okay, one of myfavorite theologians, Richard
Rohr, says if you get the shapeof God wrong, everything you
build on top of it will wobble.
It will be unstable.
But if you think about it, as akid, you can't get the shape of
God right.
It's impossible.
So you start to build a life on,on an idea of God that is

(10:56):
necessarily going to lead towobbling and shifting.
And then as adults, we try todeal with this.
It's like, okay, we've built ourlife on this wobbly, shaky
foundation and now we'reabsorbing wounds.
And then it's so easy tounderstand why people in like
their, like twenties to earlythirties, they're like, forget
it.
This thing has caused more harmthan it has helped me.

(11:18):
And then they just like.
They usually say, I don't wantto be a part.
I don't want to be a part ofthis anymore.
And I, it's super understandableto me.
It really is.

Kristen (11:27):
Yeah.
Yeah.
You kind of have to like, and Ifeel like it goes further than
even just childhood, like, forcenturies.
We've seen this God, and I'm nottrying to like, bash on religion
at all, um, but that's justwhere we learn about God often,
and for, you know, centuries andcenturies, we've had this idea

(11:49):
of God that's very like,vengeful, and he's mean,

Audio Only - All Participan (11:52):
and he's scary,

Kristen (11:53):
and he's gonna get you, and, and I think that's, you
know, it's our ancestors believeit.
And I, I, I feel like it's inyour DNA, you know, it's like,
it's deep, it's deep in there.
And then I've also, Talkingwith, other healers or, people

(12:14):
who do energy work or healingwork often.
If you have like a, a difficultrelationship with your dad like
your present physical dad, whichmany people do, that that's the
only relationship, you know,with a father.
And then that gets put on God.

(12:34):
'cause we think of God as youknow, a father.

Yes.

Kristen (12:37):
And it transfers to him.
And then it's just like you haveno one you can trust.
Do you know what I mean?
Yeah.
Like it's, it can do so muchdamage,

Colby (12:46):
Wow.
Yes.
Yes.
And I think

Kristen (12:48):
this is, this stuff we can work through like it's not
impossible, but it can feelreally difficult.
And so I think deconstructingthat and going back and saying,
okay, what is this higher powerthat I believe in?
And, um, and I was going tomention the, so in Christianity,
charity is like the big thing,right?

(13:10):
That's like our main thing.
And in Buddhism, it'scompassion.
And there's another one I can'tremember, but there's like all
these different religions orbelief systems where it's
basically just love.
Is the ultimate goal.
And if you've ever watched anear death experience video, I
feel like that's the overarchingtheme.
It's like, I just felt so muchlove and.

(13:33):
It's so beautiful.
And I think that's really, andyou know, I mean, it's such a,
like, like all the hippies arejust like, it's just about love.
And it's like, but it really islike

Colby (13:45):
in a,

Kristen (13:45):
in a really deep way.

Colby (13:47):
People get frustrated with that.
Like, I'm glad that you namedit.
Like the hippies, whatever thatmeans these days, right.
Like it's a term from thesixties and seventies, but like
the hippies were all about peaceand love.
And I don't, I'm not old enoughto remember the movement myself.
I was a little, little kid atthe tail end of that.

(14:08):
But let me say this religiousfundament, not religious.
Let me say Christianfundamentalists and I'm not
meaning to cast stones, butChristian fundamentalists really
resist this notion.
That it all is really about loveand peace, and yet I'm with you.
In fact, Kristen, and I'm sorry,I don't mean to cut you off

(14:29):
here, but not at all.
A big part of my journey, Iloved what you said earlier.
A lot of us grew up with anotion of a God, frankly, Of a
sociopathic psychopathic God,because the messages were God
loves you more than anyone inthe universe.
And if you sin, hell hath nofury that can compare to the

(14:54):
wrath.
In fact, one of the worstphrases out there, I think one
of the most destructive phrasesout there is the wrath of God.
and one of the turning pointsfor me and, and, you know, that
I have my own podcast that I'mdoing based on this book that
I'm doing a translation of thatI think is just transformational
and I have to bring a little bitof it in so that's the book that

(15:16):
I'm translating is written by awoman who had 16 visions of God
back in the 14th century.
And the visions are stunning.
They're expansive.
They're beautiful.
But literally from start, thefirst page of the book and the
last page of the book, thewoman's name is Julian, and she
says, Love.
On the first page, she's like,God showed me that it's love.

(15:37):
And on the last page, she says,Why did God show me this?
It was love.
And the whole book and all 16visions, the book is called
Revelations of Divine Love.
But what it really should becalled is the unwrathing of God.
And in fact, one of the thingsthat she says all throughout the

(15:57):
book, but she talks about howmuch God loves us, right?
Like she talks about, let megive you just a little bit of
imagery.
God's love is closer to us thanthe flesh and bones are to our
hearts.
Like she just has all thisbeautiful language about how
God's love never turns away fromus.

(16:17):
Even when you feel like you'renot loved, even when you feel
like you're in the depths ofdespair, God still holds you in
love.
And then she has a couple ofmind blowing statements that I
think just tie into all of this.
And Kristen, remind me to comeback to what you said about
trust, because I think that'sreally critical.
She says, Julian says.

(16:39):
I saw that with God, there is noanger.
None.
Kristen, I was jogging when Ifirst listened to that, and I
heard it.
And my soul knew it was true,but it was so contradictory to
things I had heard throughout mylife growing up in, in religion.

(17:00):
I had to stop.
Like I was, it stopped me deadin my tracks and I, for the
first time in my life, Kristen,I contemplated the notion.
What if this thing we calledGod, what if the source, what if
this cosmic present with thelife force as the Hindus call
it, what if this thing literallyhad no anger And no wrath, none.

(17:23):
And then she says later on, Isaw that it was impossible for
God to forgive us.
And I was like, wait, what?
But then she continued bysaying, because in order to
forgive, you must first beoffended.
And our God is never offended byus.
And, and so it's like scores ofpages of just a beautiful

(17:47):
depiction of a thing that isonly ever, always love.
And to me, Kristen, when yousaid, man, so many of us, you
know, not us, but like so manypeople have difficult
relationships with their dads.
Like, let's just name it.

(18:08):
Everybody has an imperfect dad.
I'm a dad.
So sadly, my kids are getting areflection, you know, and we do
call God Father.
We could have a whole discussionon that, but like, we call this
thing father, and we can't helpbut associate with our earthly
father.
And it's really unfortunate thatnone of us get a perfect earthly

(18:29):
father.
And some of us have better, Ihad a beautiful father, a father
full of love, I'm very gratefulfor that.
Maybe that's why it's been soeasy for me to fall in love with
God.
But it is true that the moreproblems you have with your dad,
this person that's supposed tobe a reflection of the divine
father, then you lose trust.

(18:49):
And Kristen, I think this is thecrux of the matter.
If you don't have a presence inyour life that is reliable love,
then you don't have any basisfor trust.
And when you don't have anybasis for trust, man, that's a
boat without a rudder.
I, I, I'm, I mean, pick yourmetaphor.

(19:10):
That is a boat without a rudder.
We're all All looking for ahandle to hold on to because
there's a lot of turmoil.
There's a lot of tempest wherewe're all on the boat that's
being tossed around on theocean.
It's a scary place.
This world is a scary,treacherous place.
It really is.
And what we're looking for is ahandhold, something that we can

(19:31):
grab onto that we know isn'tgoing to move on us.
It's not going to shake on us,and it's not going to drop us.
And that thing is love.
That's the anchor.
But if we never got it from ourfathers, it's, it's a little bit
hard to imagine that there'ssomething bigger out there that
can give it to us.

Kristen (19:48):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And that's where, um, I knowlike in our faith tradition, we
believe in Christ and we believein a heavenly mother, uh, like a
divine feminine and, the Holyghost and angels and all these
things.
And I feel like that's, that canbe a really helpful.
If you can't lean on God, I'vespent a lot of time leaning on.

(20:09):
My Divine Feminine HeavenlyMother presence, and I've spent
a lot of time leaning on Christ.
He's been like, someone that Ican trust, even though, I don't
know, it's just different, forsome reason, for me, between,
the Father God, and then theSon, that's my brother, you
know,

and

Kristen (20:26):
so I'm like, even, this is what we believe, and even if,
We have it all wrong or, youknow, whatever.
It's like, you have to have yourthings that you can lean on and
you can believe.
And I almost feel like itdoesn't really even matter as
long as you know that there issomething benevolent, that's
bigger than you, that's got you.

(20:49):
I was, one of the main things Iwanted to talk about today is
just that, when you're doingthese, a lot of times with these
healing modalities, like, I usedto do neuro emotional technique
with my chiropractor and I'vedone a lot of energy healing and
the, kind of the prerequisitethat they check with you before
you start is, do you believe ina higher power?

(21:10):
And it doesn't even matter whatit is.
It could be the earth, you know,it could be the universe.
It could be God.
It could be whatever.
but just having that kind ofbase is such a important, it's
an important part of the healingprocess.
And I know like, AlcoholicsAnonymous, that's one of the
steps you have to recognize ahigher power.

(21:32):
and I was talking to a friendabout this, whose husband is
very involved with that.
And, I was just asking her whattheir, And a reasoning is for
including that just when I thinkit's to let go of control, like
realize that you're not incontrol and giving that up to
someone else that's bigger thanyou.
And I think there's a lot ofdifferent reasons why we might
need that higher power.

Audio Only - All Particip (21:54):
Yeah.

Kristen (21:54):
I think sometimes it's, like if you don't believe
there's anything bigger thanjust you, I feel like that's
really depressing.

Colby (22:02):
I feel like that'd be terrible

Kristen (22:02):
for your mental health, right?
Well, and Kristen,

Colby (22:05):
can I, is it okay if I jump in here?
Yeah, yeah.
Finish your thought if you wantto finish.
Just, just basically that.
You've said so many good thingsright there that I, I want to
just like latch onto this andlike explore.
I'm, okay, fundamentally, here'sthe truth that nobody wants to
face.

(22:26):
And without, and I love thelanguage that you used,
something bigger than us that isbenevolent, something that is
such good language, somethingbigger than us that is
benevolent.
Because if you don't have thatin your life, then there is one
reality that you will eitherrefuse.

(22:52):
You'll either refuse toacknowledge it, or you will
become completely despondentwhen you do acknowledge it.
And that truth is, wefundamentally are not in
control.
We spend our whole lives, I meanthere's a whole field of
psychology on the illusion ofcontrol.
We spend great amounts of energyand resources trying to delude

(23:16):
ourselves into the idea that weare ultimately in control.
And we're not.
I mean, we can make some choicesand I'm not trying to say, I'm
not trying to be fatalistic.
I'm just saying, and you'reaware of this, but your
listeners wouldn't know it.
My best friend that I've knownfor over 20 years, his son who
was 18 years old, just died ofcancer three weeks ago.

(23:39):
There was nothing they could doto stop that.
They tried everything andthey're beautiful people and God
bless them.
They, they did everything theycould for their son and he still
passed away.
I know people who have doneeverything right and they've
lost their jobs and experiencedfinancial ruin.

(24:02):
I know people who have doneeverything right and they've
wanted to get married andthey've never gotten married.
I know people who have gottenmarried and gone through
horrific divorces and they'vedone everything right.
I know people who have goneblind.
What I'm saying is like,fundamentally, we are not

(24:25):
ultimately in control.
And if you're not in control, Imean, imagine I finally look in
the mirror and say, yeah, I'mnot in control.
And if I don't believe in abenevolent thing in the universe
that's bigger than I am, thenyou become a nihilist.

Like,

Colby (24:44):
I mean, this is where people like Voltaire and
Nietzsche, this is where it endsup.
The people who are smart enoughand honest enough to admit the
reality, but they can't see ahigher power.
So like Voltaire, Voltaire andNietzsche, you become, you
become a nihilist.
And when you begin, even thenihilists would admit.

(25:05):
This is not a good way to live,like, this is, this is not a
good way to live, but, but Idon't have any other options.
And so, what you're presentingis this alternative, like, well,
but wait a second.
There could be something outthere, bigger and higher, and
I'm going to keep using yourword, that is, Benevolent,
that's, that's both powerful andfull of love, man.

(25:31):
You put those two thingstogether, Kristen, but you have
to experience it.
You can't read about this.
You can't intellect your wayinto this of like, Oh yeah, like
maybe intellectually there'ssome higher power out there.
No, no.
Like you have to taste it.
And when you taste the realitythat there is something bigger,
that is benevolent, that issupernaturally powerful.

(25:54):
And supernaturally loving andbenevolent.
Well, guess what?
Now I can peacefully relinquishmy control.
I never had it in the firstplace.
I thought I did.
What I'm really doing is turningin an illusion.
I thought I was in control.
I know I'm not, but now I canpeacefully let go of that
delusion and put it in the handsof this benevolent thing.

(26:19):
That's good stuff.
It's beautiful.

Kristen (26:23):
Yeah.
Yeah.
And it's hard because I mean, Iknow I've gone through this, I'm
sure, probably you have, I thinkalmost everybody has, who is,
who has this idea of God, likeit's like we believe in God, we
know, like we're taught, thathe's, he's good, he's, he's
there, but then, like you werelisting all these things that go

(26:45):
terribly wrong.

Yeah.
And it's

Kristen (26:48):
so hard.
It's all, it feels almostimpossible to trust that God
does have your back.
You know, this is like the, thegreat trial of being a human is
like, how do you, you know, it'slike, how do you heal from that?
And

Colby (27:06):
yeah.
Yeah.
So Kristen, I, I just love whereyou're taking this conversation,
by the way.
so I, I feel like in, in all ofthis, what you just named is
faith, like, and here's, that'sanother word that has too much
baggage behind it.
Right.
But to me in its simplest form,faith is believing that there is

(27:27):
a supernatural power that isbenevolent and loves me.
And even in the moments where itfeels like my life is going to
hell in a handbasket, And, andI'm of the opinion, I really
believe this, we will allexperience these moments.
We will all experience thesemoments where we just feel like
our life is spiraling out ofcontrol.

(27:48):
Faith is to continue to believethat even this, and, and I'm
sorry to quote her so much, butshe's on my mind and I'm reading
her so much, but Julian, this isone of the beautiful things that
Julian says in her book that shesaw.
She's like, I saw that all ofcreation is held in God's hands
in love, and that he's not goingto let anything fall, and that

(28:12):
he's moving all of creation,including you, and including me.
He holds all of us in his handsin love, and he's moving all of
us in the direction of goodnessand salvation.
Again, even when you can't seeit or feel it.
And also, that God will not letanything happen that he cannot
put right in the end.

(28:33):
But that's hard to see if ifyou're my friend and his wife
and you're literally watchingyour son take his last breath
Yeah, that's kind of hard tobelieve that there is a
benevolent force in the universenow I have to say and I it's
their story to tell and they'venot given me permission to tell
the story But even in thosemoments in the last hours of

(28:55):
their son's life in the lastdays of his life It was almost
like there were whispers frombeyond comforting them and
telling them that you can stilltrust in the benevolent force.
And it was, it was really sweetand really special, but, but,
but don't expect that all thetime, right?
Like you and I have probablyboth in situations where I

(29:16):
didn't feel that right.
Like in my life was just, it wasbad.
It was painful.
It was dark and I didn't feel orhear those whispers.
And my friends would say thattoo.
Cause he's been battling cancerfor six years and they would say
there were a lot of moments overthose six years where things
just felt dark and despondentand difficult and hard.
But that's where faith comes inis like to hold on, hold on to

(29:41):
that trust and that belief thatthere is something benevolent
and beautiful and loving.

Kristen (29:45):
Yeah.
And that's a, it's so real,like, being in the moment and
just being angry or just not,you know, you're saying, knowing
that ultimately like, Godwon't...I'm not going to say
exactly like you did, but thethings that happen to us here,

(30:06):
we'll be able to be'fixed" orremedied.
Yeah, he's not gonna let it getout of control.
He's not gonna, yeah.
And it feels out of control.
It does feel.
It's like, whatever.
This is completely out ofcontrol.
Yes.
But, But, yeah, it's like, Ifeel like if you can really see
kind of the bigger picture, ifthere's a way you can get a
glimpse of that, that's sohealing.

(30:29):
And, that's why I've gotten sopassionate about, some of the
energy work that I've gotten tobenefited from, because it's,
Using visualizations to, on asubconscious level, tune into
that, and for me, it's Christand the Atonement, you know, I,
I really believe that that,that's the ultimate, it, it

(30:53):
takes care of everything, andlike, things might suck,

Audio Only - All Participant (30:57):
in this life,

Kristen (30:58):
and like right now, and you might not be able to see
your way through it, but Havingsomeone guide me through, being
able to see that on more of asoul level, like an energetic
spiritual soul level,

Audio Only - All Participant (31:12):
is

Kristen (31:13):
the most healing thing I've ever experienced.

Colby (31:15):
Yes.

Kristen (31:15):
Because I can actually get there, even if I can't
consciously get there, I cansubconsciously get there

Colby (31:22):
and it heals you.
Kristen, can I, can I translatesome of what you're saying?
Because it's so good when youtalk about healing happening at
an energy level.
That resonates so deeply withme.
Um, I've been saying for years,so I'm going to quote myself and
I'm going to quote somebodyelse.
I've been saying for years thatwhen it comes to woundedness and

(31:45):
I'm not talking about like aknife cut on your arm, I'm
talking about soul wounds, likeemotional wounds, that healing
is most likely to happen when wehave an authentic encounter with
love.
Like, I've been saying that fora while.
Healing is most likely to happenwhen we have an authentic
encounter with love.
But that's what you're saying.
You're just using the wordenergy.

(32:05):
Because love is the mostbeautiful of all the energies.
And don't try to make it morescientific than that.
Let it be a little mystical.
Let love.
In fact, I hope the day nevercomes where I read a scientific
paper about the neurology andthe chemical deconstruction of

(32:28):
love.
I don't want that.
I want love to be something atthe energy level.
And I think that's what we'retalking about here.
And so let me quote one otherperson just around this topic.
her name is, I think, MiriamHeidland.
She's a Catholic nun.
She said, and she, she spentmost of her life studying

(32:49):
healing.
She's got an interesting backstory where she suffered through
addiction before she became anun.
And so she's experienced a lotof woundedness and healing.
So she says healing is theongoing encounter with God's
love and truth that brings us towholeness and communion.

(33:11):
You, you don't have to say theword God, but healing is the
ongoing encounter with love.
That's one of the truest thingsI've ever heard in my life.
Healing happens when we have anongoing encounter with love.
And I think part of what you doin your energy work is, and I

(33:33):
don't want to make it allexclusively love.
I know there's other forms ofenergy, but I think you create
spaces for that sort of energyto be present.
And that's what healing comesfrom is from the energy.
Primarily from love.
So this to me makes a lot ofsense.

Kristen (33:51):
I'm glad it's speaking to you.
Cause, but like, it's alllanguage, right?
Like it's the soul level.
It's the energy level.
It's the subconscious,spiritual, whatever.
But it's all kind of the same.

Colby (34:05):
I think it's really the

Kristen (34:06):
same thing to me.
It is.

Colby (34:08):
Yes, I think that's right.
And I only say that because likeyour listeners are all super
comfortable with the languageBut there gets to be some
weirdness sometimes, right?
Like, like, I mean you and Ihave talked about this that when
we've gone out to lunch Theregets to be some weirdness
sometimes in various religiouscultures They like they don't
love the idea of energy work andit's like what do you think love

(34:30):
is?
Like, I mean, that's an honestquestion.
What do you think love isbesides energy?
Like, anyway, so I, I just,you're right.
We're just using different wordsto say the same beautiful,
powerful, important thing.

Kristen (34:43):
Yeah.
Yeah.
Well, and it's like, yeah.
And you can't avoid it.
Like it's feelings.
You know what I mean?
It's the vibe you're putting outor receiving

Colby (34:52):
vibe is such a good word, right?
That's a good word.

Kristen (34:56):
Yeah.
And so it's like.
You're doing energy work whetheryou mean to or not, but yeah,
like we're all just like spendon each other vibes.
Yeah

Colby (35:07):
All the time.

Kristen (35:08):
Yeah, so it's just being intentional But um, but
when you get somebody who reallyknows what they're doing And can
help you on a soul level.
Like it's, I don't know, I guessI get, I just get passionate
about it.
Cause I'm, I, I feel like we, wetalk about healing and we talk
about, especially, amongChristians, it's like, well,

(35:29):
Christ can heal you.
And it's like, well, sure.
How, like, whatever, I don'tknow.
That's not helpful.
You know, I feel like through,through doing this in a very,
um, just, using modalities andpractitioners that are very
intentional.
It's like harnessing theatonement and using it in your

(35:51):
life.
And it's the most powerfulthing.
And it, and I just want peopleto understand, you know,

Colby (35:57):
can I, can I make a comment on that?

Kristen (35:58):
Yeah.

Colby (35:59):
So you said some really interesting things earlier that
I wanted to loop back to and tieinto this.
So you, you talked about theimportance of the divine
feminine and how that's aconduit for, I don't know if you
said a conduit for love, butthat's what I picked up from.
It was like, you definitely feelconnected to that.
You talked about Christ being apresence that you very much

(36:20):
relate to and connect with.
Um, I think this is so importantand beautiful because, again,
you know, I made this point atthe beginning that it's, it is
human nature to take the divinemystery and collapse it into
something that becomes acaricature.
And I actually, and some peoplethink this is heretical for me

(36:40):
to say this, but it's likewhatever, I think there's a lot
of scriptures that representCompressed caricatures of God,
and I actually think some of thewritings that have done the most
damage and inflicted the mostspiritual trauma are the
scriptures themselves.
Now, I love the scriptures, andI read the scriptures every day,
so I'm not saying throw yourscriptures in the trash.

(37:02):
I just think there are someelements in the scriptures that
paint an image of God where he'sangry, he's wrathful, he's
violent, he's a bit bipolar.
And unpredictable and volatile,look, those are all words,
wrathful, vengeful, angry,volatile, spiteful, violent that
you could find, if not thewords, but depictions of God in

(37:25):
the scriptures that way.
And yet that's all socontradictory to the divine
mystery that I've experiencedand to the holy mystery that
Julian of Norwich articulatesthrough her experience.
And where this all connects forme is, Jesus.
I believe came to clarify allthe confusion about God.

(37:50):
It says, I think in Galatiansand the Pauline epistles, that
he is the image of the invisibleGod, that Jesus is the image of
the invisible God.
And then Jesus himself said,look, if you've seen me, you've
seen the father.
I and the Father are one.

(38:11):
And so Kristen, it's superinteresting.
I've had a lot of people comeinto the office in my pastoral
role.
And when we get to talking, ittakes a while, like we have to
peel back the layers of theonion.
But I had one woman once whojust like, she finally got there
and she's like, well, I guess Ijust always imagined that God
was kind of disappointed in meand I'm such a sinful person and
I'm so imperfect.

(38:31):
And I imagined that God was kindof, and I said, well, how does
Jesus feel about you?
And she's like, Oh, Jesus lovesme.
And I was like, well, that'sinteresting.
And I said, help me reconcilethat.
And she, and she goes, she, she,she sat back and she goes, I
mean, I guess now that we'vegotten to it.

(38:52):
I sort of imagine a good cop,bad cop scenario where, where
Jesus is the good cop and God,and God is the bad cop.
And so, that's so

Kristen (39:01):
relatable though.
It is relatable.

Colby (39:04):
I've, I've felt that.
So one of my favorite quotes,and this comes from a guy named,
uh, Brad Jerzak.
He wrote a book called A MoreChristlike God, which the title
alone is so good.
But he makes the statement, Godcannot be less Christ like than

(39:26):
Jesus.
Whatever this thing is that wecall God, it, in the Christian
tradition, God cannot be lesscompassionate, less merciful,
less loving, less forgiving,less tender, than Jesus was.

(39:47):
But Kristen, do you know howhard it is for me to get people
to believe that?
Because we have for so longoperated under this paradigm
where God has been collapsedinto this box and he's violent,
he's bipolar.
But what, what is so beautifulto me is if Jesus is the
reflection of the heart of Godand let's, let me run with that
for a minute.
So if God and Jesus and the HolySpirit, and, and I also want to

(40:10):
name to just When I say God, tome, there is equal parts
feminine, equal parts masculine.
I don't want to be exclusive onthat.
If God and Christ are one, andGod, Christ, and the Holy Spirit
are all united, and they allhave the same heart, and Christ
shows us what that is, thenChrist for us gives us the best,

(40:34):
clearest definition of what loveis.
And, what's beautiful about theChristian tradition, and I think
specifically about ourtradition, is what we believe
above all else are two things.
Love is to heal people.
Like, you can't read the book ofMark without Jesus healing
somebody.
I dare you.

(40:54):
Go read the book of Mark formore than 15 minutes and Jesus
heals somebody.
And some of it's totally random.
It's, it's like doesn't fit thestory at all, but it's just
like, Oh, we've gone too longwithout talking about Jesus
healing.
We better have a healing story.
So first and foremost, love ishealing.
I actually think those aresynonyms.
But secondly, love isvoluntarily absorbing other

(41:20):
people's wounds to help them.
Get through it.
I mean, this is what we believeabout Jesus in the Garden of
Gethsemane.
I think this is particularlybeautiful in our tradition.
This is what we believe aboutJesus on the cross.
And frankly, this is thetotality of Jesus's incarnation.
Jesus became flesh to absorb ourwounds.

(41:42):
So that we could heal from themand Kristen what I hear you
talking about with yourintentional purposeful energy
work and modalities is Findingan outlet for the woundedness
Like when I came to see you andmy back was all wrenched up and
you were like, hey I'm sensingthat you're carrying this burden

(42:06):
And I feel it on the left sideof your body, and I'm feeling
that this is what your soul isweighed down with my body.
Couldn't carry it.
I needed somebody else's soul tocarry the water with me.
It was too heavy.
And because it was too heavy, mybody seized up and you stepped

(42:26):
into the space and you said,I'll carry the water with you
through my hands, through mywords, through my presence.
Well, this is Christ.
Christ came into the worldsaying, I will carry the water
with all of you.
And one of my favorite quotesfrom Richard Rohr is, it takes

(42:48):
the entire body of Christ tobear the burden of sin.
And when he says sin, he doesn'tmean mistakes.
When he says sin, he just meanspain and suffering.
It takes all of us to carry thewater together to all be mini
Christs through the energy work.
Sorry, that was a super long,Rant right there.
I'll stop talking.

Kristen (43:08):
That was those beautiful.
I'm like, Wow, colby.
That's it's true.
And I think as as Christianswere, you know we're taught to
mourn with those that mourn andtry to be Christlike and so, you
know, you do want to use Him asyour Guide or I don't know

(43:29):
blueprint, I guess.

Yeah

Kristen (43:30):
for your behavior.
And I want to I just want tomention, as far as like, when I
do energy work, I'm very muchlike, I'm just a facilitator and
Christ is the healer.
And.
You know, it's, I don't know.
It's kind of a hard balancebecause it's like, I'm not
Jesus.
I can't take on everybody'scrap, you know, like.

(43:51):
Right,

Colby (43:51):
right, right.

Kristen (43:52):
So we have to like, give it to him and, um, not
absorb it ourselves, but like,be the facilitator that's like,
helping it flow to Christ andputting it.
He's already done it.
It's already done.

Colby (44:05):
Well, and that's why yeah, I think that's why your
original question and like thepremise for our episode Why is a
higher power important?
Because ultimately humanitycan't be the ground right like
we can't be the lightning rodfor this stuff

Yeah,

Colby (44:23):
I mean on a small level we can write like for for my
child When my toddler is fouryears old, I, I, I have it in
me.
Like I can take that and groundthat and help them get through
it.
But the older we get, the deeperthe wounds get, the heavier it
gets.
You're right.
We can't be the repository, thereceptacle for everybody else's

(44:44):
wounds.
But if there's somebody elsebehind us, if it's a chain,

Audio Only - All Partici (44:50):
right?

Colby (44:51):
Like if it's a chain.
So, if I have wounds that Ican't carry, and I can give some
of it to you, but you're reallyjust one link in the chain, and
we keep passing it, well,somebody's got to absorb it in
the end.
Like, it's got to landsomewhere, and that's what
you're saying.
And where it can land is withthat cosmic presence of love and
benevolence.

(45:12):
But if that cosmic presencedoesn't exist, then it does get
stuck in us.
Yeah.
Like that's, that's the beautyof it.
I think the beauty of the cosmicpresence of benevolence is we
can all be handing off thewounds until it finally gets to
the cosmic grounding spot.

Kristen (45:31):
And I think there's, there's a lot of ways to, to do
that.
And I think what you weretalking about, and this is maybe
not as related as I wasthinking, but you were talking
about how it's so difficult toconvince people that come into
your office That, that they aresupported or that, you know,
that God is there for them orwhatever.

(45:52):
And you almost, you have to, youalmost have to do it on like a,
a subconscious level.
That's why all these likehealing, um, meditations and
breath work and things that getyou kind of outside of, um, your
conscious mind.
are so helpful to get you toChrist or get you to your

(46:15):
healing mode.
I didn't mean for this to be soChristian, but I also am like,
that's what, that's what Ibelieve.
And that's what you believe.
And I,

yeah,

Kristen (46:23):
I think it's great.
But, um, but yeah, whateveryour, you know, As long as it's,
to me, light and Christ are thesame.
They're synonymous.
So if your intention is towardslight, I think that is
wonderful.

Colby (46:38):
Yeah.
And okay.
I so appreciate everything thatyou're saying here.
And, and, and you're right.
I think unintentionally we sortof got this into a very
Christian space, which I, whichI, which I love.
I

Kristen (46:49):
love it.

Colby (46:50):
But you and I, you and I can easily zoom this thing out.
Yeah.
Right.
Like for instance, I have metpeople who, for whatever reason,
and no stones need to be thrownhere, right?
But for whatever reason, theyexperience so much religious
trauma

that

Colby (47:08):
the word God And the word Jesus and the word Christianity
and the word sin and the wordrepentance have picked up so
much baggage that they've becomeunhelpful.
And I have known people that Ithink for the good of their soul
had to step away from religion.

(47:28):
They, they weren't going to getthrough this if they stayed in
the space that created thebaggage of the problems.
So they get away from it.
And they just sort of let go ofthat whole like paradigm, but
they get into the things thatyou're talking about.
They get into mindfulness, theyget into breathing.
They get into connecting withnature.

(47:49):
They get into the subconsciousand I really appreciate the
observation that you made.
Um, it's important for us tosomehow get deeper than the
conscious mind.
In fact, a lot of this spiritualmystics that I.
Sort of respect and listen toand consider to be mentors.
They all agree that as long aswe stay in the conscious mind

(48:10):
You're you're trapped in theego's attempt to control things
like the mind.
I'm not saying the mind is badWe're all using our minds.
But as long as we stay up thereWe're trapped in the illusion of
control and the ego is fightingreally hard to just keep things
in Control, even though we'renot in control, it's when you
drop below that into thesubconscious, like you just

(48:31):
described, that you actually canget away from this control game
and you have a better chance toencounter whatever it is you
want to call it.
The source, the life force,cosmic love, the benevolent
thing.
And so I've known people thatwent away from religion and
found the cosmic love.

(48:53):
That's great.
I have, I think that's fantasticif that's how it goes.

Kristen (48:57):
Can you hear me?

Colby (48:58):
Yep.
There you are.

Kristen (48:59):
Okay.
My my I think my microphonedied.
Okay, well, maybe we'll justkeep going and my audio just
went out and if it's a littledifferent.
Oh, well,

Colby (49:12):
yeah, it's it sounds great.

Kristen (49:14):
Okay.
Okay.
Awesome.
Well, I can't remember what wewere just saying.
It was really good.

Colby (49:18):
So we had just said that there are people that have to
sometimes leave religion to findthat source.

Kristen (49:24):
Yeah.
And I was saying I might becalled a heretic, but, but I
think it's, I think it's healthyand I think it's almost
necessary often to, even ifyou're staying in religion and
you're not necessarily steppingaway.
but I feel like you have to kindof step back and just let go of

(49:46):
all your preconceived notions orjust the things that you That
maybe you've been taught.
And like, I don't thinkeverybody has to do this, but I
think it can be really, reallyhelpful if you want a closer
relationship with your source tojust step back and say, okay,
what, what is this?
And really like feel it on amore soul level.

Colby (50:07):
I love that because as long as it stays at the
intellectual level, I mean, aslong as it's all about knowledge
and belief,

it's

Colby (50:16):
not very transformational.

Audio Only - All Participants (50:18):
I mean,

Colby (50:19):
I heard somebody say recently.
You don't fall in love withtruth.
You fall in love with beauty.
And you don't get converted bytruth.
You get converted by beauty.
And I think what you're talkingabout when we use the word
conversion is having anexperience, and I love the
language, at the soul level.
It's having an experience at thesoul level of beauty and love.

(50:43):
That's, that's beautiful.
Sorry to reuse the word, butit's beautiful.

Kristen (50:47):
No, it is.
Yeah.
No.
And I love that.
I was gonna ask you, as, someonewho speaks with people in a
spiritual guidance setting, um,how you've seen, uh, the, so I
assume everybody you're talkingto probably believes in God on

(51:09):
some level,

Colby (51:11):
or maybe not.
No, the overwhelming majoritydo, yeah.

Kristen (51:14):
Yeah.
And I'm just curious, like, howyou see that affect them with,
uh, They're healing.
And I feel like we've talkedabout this a little bit with
like all the beliefs we haveabout God, but, as far as people
who believe in God or don'tbelieve in God, do you feel like
there's a big, I don't know ifyou've seen that difference at

(51:35):
all,

Colby (51:37):
but, um, I don't.
Okay.
I'm not sure I can say withgreat certainty and clarity that
I've seen a huge differencebetween the believers in God and
the nonbelievers in God in termsof healing.
But let me tell you why I thinkthat is.
Most of the people that spillinto the office in my pastoral
role have, they have ideas aboutGod.

(52:01):
That I think are very limitingin the healing journey.
And, and so, the people thatview God, sorry to repeat the
words.
The people that have a view ofGod that he is mercurial,
volatile, disappointed, angry,wrathful, vengeful, spiteful,
violent.

(52:21):
Those people actually reallystruggle to find healing.
And, and in fact, what most ofthose people ask for in the
beginning, although I hope theyleave with a very different
sense, what they ask for is sortof a list of penances.
What do I need to do in orderto, to get the wrath of God

(52:42):
deflected away from me?
They don't say it that way.
They say, what do I need to doto repent?
But can you hear what's embeddedin there?
In order for me to be healed, Ihave to be forgiven.
And in order to be forgiven, Ihave to please this God.
That's a little bitunpredictable.
Like that's all baked in there.
so that's why I do thinkbelieving in the wrong God.

(53:05):
Okay.
Sorry.
This is my quippy statement onthis.
I actually think the only thingworse than no God is bad God.
Like I really kind of believethis.
Living life with no God at allhas the potential to lead you to
nihilism, which is not cool.
It's not a good way to live, butliving life with a bad God can
inflict some really deep wounds,really deep wounds.

(53:25):
The people that come in, well,okay, to be honest with you,
Kristen, I'm just raw, I'm beingraw.
The people that have a reallybeautiful view of God, like they
understand this idea of love andbenevolence, don't usually come
to see me.
Because I don't think they'restruggling to find healing.
Like, I'm making an inferencethere.
I've never asked somebody that.

(53:45):
Like, I really want to take apoll.
How many of you have donesomething that you think is like
a pretty egregious sin?
You've never gone and seen anecclesiastical leader, but you
found healing.
And then I just want to askthem, okay, tell me about your
beliefs in God.
And I'm pretty sure they'regoing to say, Oh, I believe that
God is benevolent and loving andkind and forgiving.
So this is a challengingquestion for me because I don't

(54:06):
think I get to see arepresentative sample.
The sample I see is mostlypeople with ideas about God that
have been collapsed and reducedor people that are agnostic.
And those people, those twogroups tend to look, they
struggle with healing.
Let me just say that they don'tlook the same, but they both
struggle with healing.

Kristen (54:25):
Okay, that's interesting.
Yeah, because I had a list ofquestions for you.
This has been veryconversational, which is great.

Um,

Kristen (54:34):
and I was like, I should ask him one of my
questions that I had, but thenwe just covered all these
things.
I'm like, this makes a lot ofsense that would be, that would
be the, how it goes.

Colby (54:44):
It's

Kristen (54:45):
been a

Colby (54:45):
great, it's been a great chat and I've, and I've loved
your insights and the languagethat you use.
Like you, you just have a realnice, beautiful, intelligible,
like accessible way of talkingabout these ideas.
So it's, it's really helpful.
Thank you.

Kristen (54:59):
Yeah.
I feel like you have studied allthese things so deeply, and
you've thought about it sodeeply.
I've tried.
It's, it shows, and it's, it'sreally helpful.
I hope so.
Yeah, One more thing, I wantedto ask you, because you've
talked about before, just allthese different ways to connect

(55:21):
with God.
And I think that's so valuable,because there's so many
different ways to pray andthere's so many different ways
to connect.
Um, would you want to go oversome that you have as many as
you want?
Just to give people an idea,like if you're trying to connect
to God, whether you're religiousor not trying to connect to a

(55:43):
higher power.

Yeah.

Kristen (55:44):
What's a good way to, um, to do that on a more soul
level?

Colby (55:51):
You might regret asking that question.
I have so much to say.
I'm going to try to keep thisvery, very brief.
You're fine.
Um, well, first off, Kristen, Ilove the invitation that if
there is a benevolent force inthe universe, and if it really
does love us, then it, then itdoes want to be connected to us.
And so just embedded in yourquestion is the implication that

(56:13):
it's possible that we can beconnected to this benevolence
that's bigger than us.
And that alone is a reallybeautiful, inspiring idea.
we could do an hour long podcastjust about this, but let me say
a few brief things.
I heard somebody say once that,If God loves you and wants to be
connected to you, and if Godwants to get at you, and again,

(56:35):
when I say God, I just meancosmic love, the source, like
it's, if God really wants to getat you, it's most likely to
happen in the stillness.
And what you said earlier, Ithink is just so profound about
getting to the subconsciouslevel.
And so I've been studying this alot, listening to a lot of

(56:56):
people, Cynthia Bourgeau, ThomasKeating, Richard Rohr, and
actually going all the way backinto the Middle Ages, into
Bonaventure, and just, okay,there are so many different
types of prayer.
Most people don't even knowthis.
Real quickly, there'spetitionary prayer.
That's your standard, Dear God,please bless me with this.

(57:17):
Like, that's petitionary prayer.
Most people are aware ofpetitionary prayer.
Something that's been going onfor literally thousands of years
that's somewhat been lost in theChristian tradition, not
entirely, but is praying thePsalms.
There's something that's coming,that comes out of the Eastern
Orthodox tradition.
It's called the hesychasticprayer.
and, and I'm not going to defineany of these, I'm just going to
list them off.

(57:37):
So, okay, petitionary prayer,praying the Psalms, esochastic
prayer, there's, uh, prayers ofgratitude, there are meditative
prayers, there is contemplativeprayer, and there's two or three
others that, you know, I don't,I haven't studied enough to give
you any intelligent comments.
But I now believe that they allhave a place.
I don't want anybody to abandonany of their prayer practices,

(58:00):
but I do believe that thepinnacle form of prayer is
contemplation.
And I want to be a littleprecise in my answer.
Some people think thatcontemplation and meditation and
mindfulness is all the exactsame thing.
And it's not.

(58:21):
And Bonaventure, I think givesus the roadmap Bonaventure says
so.
And he was writing in Latin,right?
So there was meditatio and therewas contemplatio meditatio.
Meant to turn something over inyour mind It means so meditation
means to actually focus on andthink about something So and if
you think about meditation,that's what you do in

(58:44):
meditation.
You might focus on something innature You might focus on
breathing.
You might focus on how the chairfeels Like this is this is kind
of a very buddhist approach bythe way to mindfulness is a
focused meditation Okay, someditation means you're you're
still actively thinking YouContemplatio.
So meditatio meant to turn itover.

(59:04):
Contemplatio meant to empty themind.
And those are very differentthings.
So, Meditation is to ponder onand actively think about
something.
Contemplation is to actuallyempty the mind and simply make
space for God.

(59:25):
And what Bonaventure says is youmeditate your way to
contemplation.
And a good way to think aboutit, Kristen, is think of a
continuum from active to passiveprayer.
So like petitionary prayer is asuper active prayer.
You're vocalizing, you're onyour knees, you're saying
thanks, you're asking forthings.
That's a very active prayer.

(59:46):
As you move into praying thePsalms and hesitastic prayer,
these are more memorizedprayers, still active, not as
active.
Meditation probably pushes you alittle bit more towards passive.
You're still active in the sensethat you're thinking and
focusing, but the ultimate aimis to get to that contemplative
state.
And then in the contemplativestate, I mean, I should be

(01:00:07):
careful about what I say here.
Let me just say this in thecontemplative state, you might
experience a state of peace.
You might experience a state ofharmony with all of creation,
and you might experience aconnection with the benevolent

(01:00:29):
presence that's bigger than usin the universe.
So I I'm a really big believerthat If you can work towards a
state of contemplation,passivity, and stillness, that's
where some good things canhappen.
But can I give one caveat onthat?
Because all of the greatteachers of contemplative prayer
will tell you the same thingright away.

(01:00:50):
You should expect this thing tosuck for a while and
episodically.
In fact, John of the Cross, Wasvery clear about the St.
John of the Cross, who was acontemporary of Teresa of Avila,
John of the Cross was like, Hey,in fact, have you ever heard of
the phrase dark night of thesoul?
You can just nod your head ifyou've heard that phrase.
Okay.
Dark night of the soul comesfrom John of the Cross, and we

(01:01:12):
completely misuse it these days.
These days we use dark night ofthe soul to mean I'm going
through a faith crisis.
That's not what he meant.
What he meant was the closer youget to God, You will experience
what's called a final purgation,meaning God needs to know, get a
load of this.
I actually think this isbeautiful.
God needs to know that you'renot interested in God just

(01:01:35):
because of the cool things Godcan do for you.
God needs to know that you wanta relationship with that divine
loving presence, even if thatdivine loving presence can't
offer you anything.
Because that's true love.
True love is I don't expectanything from you.
I'm here to give you mypresence.
So what John of the cross saidis you should expect as you go

(01:01:57):
through this journey and you getinto a contemplative state, you
might experience peace.
You might experience harmony.
You might experience connectionwith divine love, but you'll
also experience purgation.
You'll experience darknessbecause God needs to know that
you're here for love andpresence and not for all of the
blessings that God can give you.

(01:02:17):
So my short answer is stillness,contemplation.
It might involve meditation.
It might involve the Psalms.
It might involve hesitasticprayer.
It might involve petitionaryprayer.
Contemplative prayer andstillness is the answer, but
don't expect it to all be, youknow, gumdrops and unicorns
along, along the way.
Sorry.
That was kind of a long answer.

Kristen (01:02:36):
No, no, that's great.
That's what I, that's what Iwanted.
what you were explaining is howI have, that's been when I've
had the most profoundexperiences with the creator is,
Meditation to contemplation.

Audio Only - All Particip (01:02:48):
Yeah.

Kristen (01:02:49):
And just allowing space to receive.

Colby (01:02:53):
And, and Kristen, I want to put it out there.
I think this could be helpfulfor people because there are a
lot of people that usemeditation, stillness,
mindfulness, and contemplationsynonymously, and they're not
the same.
And I want to name contemplationis the stripping away of
consciousness to get tosubconscious where you are.

(01:03:17):
Present.
You are just being, you're notthinking, you're not problem
solving.
You're not thinking of your nextsermon.
You're not even focusing on aleaf.
You're not focusing on even thebreath at that point.
You've gone to a deeper place ofhow you just described it.
And so I think it's a beautifulidea that could be helpful to
people that you meditation canget you to that subconscious

(01:03:40):
just state of being.
It's just true being.
That's what it is.
It's just true being.

Kristen (01:03:45):
No, I love that.
And it takes, I feel like, Ifeel like often people get
intimidated by meditationbecause they think it's that
they think it's contemplationand it's, it takes time to get
there.

Colby (01:03:55):
Yes.

Kristen (01:03:56):
Like,

Colby (01:03:57):
and it doesn't happen every time, right?
Like give yourself grace.
And I would say this, have noexpectations going into it.
Like, like don't say toyourself, well, Colby and
Kristen described it this way.
And so I guess I've got it.
No, it's like, have noexpectation.
Just hear what Kristen just toldyou.
Meditate.

(01:04:17):
Into contemplation and that getsyou to pure existence and just
go for it.
Like go on the journey Go findit yourself and give yourself
grace.

Kristen (01:04:26):
Yeah.
No, that's great.
Thank you colby for that.
Yeah.
No, I, I just, I was hoping withthis episode, people could just
kind of see, see the spiritualside of healing and find ways to
connect more with their higherpower.

(01:04:49):
So I feel like we've given thema little, I don't know, we've
given them we're so we're sobenevolent.
I feel like this has been areally good conversation that's
covered a lot of.
Different aspects of this and

Colby (01:05:03):
I've enjoyed it.
And every, every time we, everytime we talk, you point
something out, you have aninsight, you have a way of
saying something that justreally lands for me and takes my
understanding farther down theroad.
And so I just appreciate it.
Appreciate the work that you do.

Kristen (01:05:16):
Well, thank you.
I feel the same way about you.
And every time I listened toyour podcast, I'm like crying in
the corner, you know,

Colby (01:05:22):
unfortunately, I am too.
And I do the podcast.

Kristen (01:05:25):
Thank you.
Well, we're feeling things, sothat's good.

Colby (01:05:29):
Yeah, we are feeling

Kristen (01:05:30):
things.
So, I wanted to ask one morequestion.
Do you have any, books orresources, just something you'd
recommend to people that mighthelp them on their

Colby (01:05:43):
path.
Sorry, I'm pausing because I'veread and listened to so much
stuff, and I feel like It kindof depends on where you're at,
like, I sort of, when peoplecome into the office and they
explain what's going on and whatthey're thinking, I kind of feel
like, Oh, here's the book foryou or here's the podcast for

(01:06:04):
you.
but I, but I will say this, likeone, here's a book that I love
that a lot of people have readthe wisdom Jesus by Cynthia
Borgio is, I just think it's areally beautiful kind of modern
approach to Jesus and healingand thinking about God
differently.
So that's one book I wouldrecommend.
Cynthia Bourgeois is just fullof wisdom.

(01:06:24):
I think anything from RichardRohr is awesome.
and then Julian of Norwich,Revelations of Divine Love, I
think is worth a read.
And the translation I recommendis Mirabai Star.
So yeah, Cynthia Bourgeois,Richard Rohr, Julian of Norwich.
Can't go wrong with any of that.

Kristen (01:06:41):
Wonderful.
Okay.
Thank you.
Um, and where, tell us aboutwhat's your podcast name,

Colby (01:06:49):
your book,

Kristen (01:06:50):
your, how do people find you?

Colby (01:06:52):
Yeah.
Yeah.
I'm hard to find actually.
My, my podcast is awesome booksabout God and Jesus uncle Colby.
So again, that's awesome booksabout God and Jesus with uncle
Colby.
Um, I really don't have anonline presence and I wrote this
book for my kids a while back.
It's, it's called the one withthe tiger on the boat.
I actually.
Did put my heart and soul intoit.
I don't know how much, much ithelps adults or whatever, but,

(01:07:14):
um, if they want to get in touchwith me, they can email me.
It's Colby.
Wright at BYU.
edu.
So Colby.
Wright at BYU.
edu and just Kristen, thanks.
You're a beautiful human being.
This has been awesome.
I've enjoyed the conversation.
Thank you so much for listening.
If you are enjoying WhollyEmpowered, share it with that
friend or on your socials, youcan also hit the follow button

(01:07:36):
if you want to keep up with thelatest episodes.
Until next time, stay empowered.

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8. All About Correlations Between Belief in a Higher Power and Healing Your Soul - with Colby Wright

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.css-14f5ked{margin:0;word-break:break-word;display:-webkit-box;-webkit-box-orient:vertical;box-orient:vertical;-webkit-line-clamp:2;overflow:hidden;}8. All About Correlations Between Belief in a Higher Power and Healing Your Soul - with Colby Wright